Reasons to prefer Linux over Windows (2014)(github.com)
github.com
Reasons to prefer Linux over Windows (2014)
https://github.com/nbeaver/why-linux-is-better
636 comments
> Really, most modern Linux distros are pretty god damn nice.
I agree, and what really sold me was Plasma Desktop, as someone that couldn't stand KDE 3 & 4. It used to be that GNOME was the desktop environment you could turn into a Windows or macOS clone, but it looks like that switched with GNOME 3 and KDE 5.
I have Plasma Desktop set up[1] to take advantage of my macOS muscle memory when it comes to the GUI and keyboard short cuts, and I couldn't imagine going back.
> Linux is rocking the desktop hard, if you haven't tried it in a few years or just maintain a Windows installation to play games-- seriously give it a try. It's wonderful.
It's not just developers or power users that Linux shines for, either. I'm of the opinion that if ChromeOS would suit a person's needs, so would a polished distribution like Ubuntu along with a browser like Firefox or Chrome. Ubuntu has an app store-like interface to install Zoom, Slack, and other work apps.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23607374
I agree, and what really sold me was Plasma Desktop, as someone that couldn't stand KDE 3 & 4. It used to be that GNOME was the desktop environment you could turn into a Windows or macOS clone, but it looks like that switched with GNOME 3 and KDE 5.
I have Plasma Desktop set up[1] to take advantage of my macOS muscle memory when it comes to the GUI and keyboard short cuts, and I couldn't imagine going back.
> Linux is rocking the desktop hard, if you haven't tried it in a few years or just maintain a Windows installation to play games-- seriously give it a try. It's wonderful.
It's not just developers or power users that Linux shines for, either. I'm of the opinion that if ChromeOS would suit a person's needs, so would a polished distribution like Ubuntu along with a browser like Firefox or Chrome. Ubuntu has an app store-like interface to install Zoom, Slack, and other work apps.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23607374
I finally got fed up with tweaking Arch/DWM and switched to Manjaro with KDE on my main machine, I went through all the versions of Manjaro and all had their problems and I finally settled on KDE.
Looks good, allows me some tweaking, runs surprisingly light. Although, still some annoying bugs, the most annoying being when I open an application on my 1440p screen, KDE often opens it on my second monitor for no real reason.
Looks good, allows me some tweaking, runs surprisingly light. Although, still some annoying bugs, the most annoying being when I open an application on my 1440p screen, KDE often opens it on my second monitor for no real reason.
> Although, still some annoying bugs, the most annoying being when I open an application on my 1440p screen, KDE often opens it on my second monitor for no real reason.
This here is my most hated thing about KDE. I run it on Debian so my version is pretty old compared, has it been fixed in newer versions? I have been thinking about switching to Neon, but I don't care for the Ubuntu base verses vanilla Debian.
This here is my most hated thing about KDE. I run it on Debian so my version is pretty old compared, has it been fixed in newer versions? I have been thinking about switching to Neon, but I don't care for the Ubuntu base verses vanilla Debian.
No it hasn't, it's very inconsistent though. Emacs and some other software does it everytime, although most seem well behaved. I'm on 5.20, probably not the latest version I'd have if I were on Arch though.
Neon is not that much better and doesn't fix a lot of the issues.
I've found XFCE and cinnamon are the most stable/reliable DE's. I'm rocking Manjaro cinnamon right now.
I've found XFCE and cinnamon are the most stable/reliable DE's. I'm rocking Manjaro cinnamon right now.
XFCE had some weird virtual desktop behaviour where when I opened an application from the tray, it would open in my current desktop and not the desktop that I'd placed it.
Aside from that it was great, and there was probably some configuration option to stop that behaviour but I could not find it.
Actually I quite enjoyed Cinnamon, I cannot even remember what things I disliked but I'd just saw the new release of KDE and those small niggles were enough of an excuse to switch back to KDE hah.
Aside from that it was great, and there was probably some configuration option to stop that behaviour but I could not find it.
Actually I quite enjoyed Cinnamon, I cannot even remember what things I disliked but I'd just saw the new release of KDE and those small niggles were enough of an excuse to switch back to KDE hah.
I love KDE and think it is the best Linux desktop in terms of features and customization. Unfortunately it's just so damn buggy. Not in in unstable way, but there are just enumerable ways you can break it. It gets to the point that when you try something new that it has, you pause and think "Is this gonna break or stop working thus ruing my workflow again?"
It's why I went back to cinnamon. I mean in the realms of the phrase "Fuck, marry, kill", I'd fuck KDE, marry cinnnamon, and kill MATE.
It's why I went back to cinnamon. I mean in the realms of the phrase "Fuck, marry, kill", I'd fuck KDE, marry cinnnamon, and kill MATE.
If you hare looking for a more arch experience again, check out endeavouros. Phil and the Manjaro group have increasingly proved their incompetence.
There is funny business going on at manjaro, but by god do they deliver! I run 5 linux computers at home for various ends and I got tired of putting a new Ubuntu on them every now and then. At the time I looked at manjaro, other rolling distros couldn't even survive an update from the latest installation media to current (sidux). Arch is/was a hobby in itself and the opposite of what I was seeking, but it is an excellent foundation. Manjaro has kept these 5 machines for over 5 years through every possible update and it never broke them. Kernel switching is a joy. Driver installing switching is a joy. This is a very tall order.
That said I do hope endeavouros or others can fill Manjaro's immense boots.
That said I do hope endeavouros or others can fill Manjaro's immense boots.
Might I suggest Arcolinux to you? It sits closer to Endeavour and Arch with its packages, but also comes with many things preconfigured.
KDE maintainers have been pretty responsive when I opened bug reports, so if you haven't tried that avenue, it can't hurt.
I'll have to try KDE again, I always found it really messy and disorganised (but that was many years ago).
It's really hard not to have some bias, but I used OSX for work for about five years, currently been using Windows at work for about two years, and I still find Gnome to be the most usable and aesthetically pleasing desktop by far.
It's really hard not to have some bias, but I used OSX for work for about five years, currently been using Windows at work for about two years, and I still find Gnome to be the most usable and aesthetically pleasing desktop by far.
Do give KDE a try. I recently helped a friend migrate from Windows 10 to KDE. I have personally been using i3, XFCE and GNOME back and forth during the last decade, and the one time I tried KDE a few years back, it did not boot to desktop so I just switched back to GNOME.
After helping my friend setting up KDE I discovered the level of polish and customizability that KDE now offers. That same day I installed KDE on my own machine and soon after removed every GNOME component from my system. I have been using it the last few weeks and really feel at home!
After helping my friend setting up KDE I discovered the level of polish and customizability that KDE now offers. That same day I installed KDE on my own machine and soon after removed every GNOME component from my system. I have been using it the last few weeks and really feel at home!
Yeah, I was a Gnome user for past years ago along with Fedora. And I share the same Greg K.H feeling about that such big change called Gnome 3 that honestly I was not able to track it at all from UI perspective on a Fedora machine at that time. They together never convinced me for my daily job.
In the other hand, KDE has evolved without that big major difference like Gnome 3 and now with Plasma 5 we have a very polished interface with great performance resulting is a pleasant experience on my daily basis.
Basically now with ArchLinux + KDE on my laptop I have everything that I want as developer: an OS performing and booting at high speed (around 10 secs the whole OS + desktop env) and a great desktop experience.
Such experience that you can not afford it using Windows or "even" Macos.
That's Linux empowering your computer. So that simple.
That's Linux empowering your computer. So that simple.
> I'll have to try KDE again, I always found it really messy and disorganised (but that was many years ago).
This was my reason for not using KDE for years. The UI these days is cleaner and leaner, rivaling XFCE in resource usage.
> I still find Gnome to be the most usable and aesthetically pleasing desktop by far.
This was my initial impression, as well. But if you want to do something that the GNOME team feels is superfluous, you're either out of luck or depending on some plugin that will break your DE if you upgrade GNOME.
On Plasma Desktop, almost everything is configurable, but it isn't overwhelming and disorganized like it was in KDE 3 & 4. There's a considerable amount of polish. Plugin bugs don't take down the entire desktop environment, either.
This was my reason for not using KDE for years. The UI these days is cleaner and leaner, rivaling XFCE in resource usage.
> I still find Gnome to be the most usable and aesthetically pleasing desktop by far.
This was my initial impression, as well. But if you want to do something that the GNOME team feels is superfluous, you're either out of luck or depending on some plugin that will break your DE if you upgrade GNOME.
On Plasma Desktop, almost everything is configurable, but it isn't overwhelming and disorganized like it was in KDE 3 & 4. There's a considerable amount of polish. Plugin bugs don't take down the entire desktop environment, either.
Have you tried Cinnamon? I would recommend Mint for trying it, you can install newer Kernel via Update Manager there.
Mint is great and I recommend it too for using Cinnamon but it's not remotely the only viable choice to try it out. Cinnamon works just fine in Debian/Devuan, and in Fedora, from my experience.
It still is tbh.
So you install Linux to install a bunch of proprietary software on it? I don't get the point.
Linux isn't just an OS you use because you want to use free software.
For a good number of people it's just better than Windows and macOS.
For a good number of people it's just better than Windows and macOS.
Maybe so, maybe other people just don't know, for those who don't know it may be good to read how this all got started, so here's my two cents: https://www.gnu.org/
I understand this, and I am someone who started using free software for philosophical reasons. But if you're interested in free software succeeding, it's a better strategy to meet people where their needs are rather than push any particular selling point. If someone switches to Linux because their Steam games run smoother than on Windows, more power to them! And then we can sell them on all the free software that their distribution just happens to come with, and also educate them about the philosophical underpinnings along the way.
This is the way.
Linux with a few blobs is still light-years better for your freedom than osx or windows. Plus, from a platform perspective, software built on windows or osx is categorically not free (in the strictest sense - even if the software is gpl, if it's built for a nonfree os, it's still not very useful in the grandest scheme of things even if it's better than if it were proprietary as well). However, software written for linux can be truly free.
Note when I say "written for" I'm not even really speaking very technically - lots of programs written nowadays won't really have any particular dependency on a library that's only available on a certain OS. But if you're using an application that's written in a platform-agnostic way but the programmer only develops it and uses it on a Mac, it's usually easy to tell. Both in terms of system interop/integration and how bugs are prioritized.
So, even if people do things you don't like on their linux install, it's still far better to have as many people on linux as we can get.
Note when I say "written for" I'm not even really speaking very technically - lots of programs written nowadays won't really have any particular dependency on a library that's only available on a certain OS. But if you're using an application that's written in a platform-agnostic way but the programmer only develops it and uses it on a Mac, it's usually easy to tell. Both in terms of system interop/integration and how bugs are prioritized.
So, even if people do things you don't like on their linux install, it's still far better to have as many people on linux as we can get.
Even if you keep all of your proprietary applications, switching from Windows to Linux still means your system is less proprietary than before, so it's still a step in the right direction.
I'd prefer not to use Zoom or Slack, but my clients use them, so I end up using them, as well. Matrix is getting better, and I've heard good things about Jitsi and its clones, so hopefully one day I can ditch the proprietary apps for open ones.
> Really, most modern Linux distros are pretty god damn nice.
This has been my experience recently as well. For laptops at least, as long as you buy a system with known good Linux support, the vast majority of the common complaints I see are not really valid.
If you need macOS or Windows to run a specific application exclusive to that platform, great. If your software all runs on Linux, you can gain a lot of freedom and privacy for little effort these days.
This has been my experience recently as well. For laptops at least, as long as you buy a system with known good Linux support, the vast majority of the common complaints I see are not really valid.
If you need macOS or Windows to run a specific application exclusive to that platform, great. If your software all runs on Linux, you can gain a lot of freedom and privacy for little effort these days.
My last three laptops (3y/laptop) have been bought without consideration for Linux. All three worked splendidly.
Most recently I got a cheap HP laptop with some online caveats. But it actually works nearly perfectly, better than most versions of Windows I've used. I started using Linux desktop eight years ago and it's only gotten better (and I've always gotten random bargain PCs).
> as long as you buy a system with known good Linux support
And that is where the problem lies. With Windows I can buy pretty much any laptop and expect it to work with. With Linux I have a limited selection of laptops, if I want it to work fully. I'm a developer and I know my way around Linux pretty well, still I usually run into "missing drivers", "package management is broken", "hardware working mostly but not fully" when I try Ubuntu or Debian.
And that is where the problem lies. With Windows I can buy pretty much any laptop and expect it to work with. With Linux I have a limited selection of laptops, if I want it to work fully. I'm a developer and I know my way around Linux pretty well, still I usually run into "missing drivers", "package management is broken", "hardware working mostly but not fully" when I try Ubuntu or Debian.
I sympathize with this as I had a laptop with Nvidia Optimus and installed Linux on it back before it was really supported, which wasn't fun.
However with Dell XPS Linux version, Lenovo has a couple, and also System76 and things you have now hundreds of laptops guaranteed to work and many more that actually still will. Just research them first if you're not sure. These days there is so much info on laptops that work well.
The first class supported ones like XPS (which I'm on my second) get firmware updates etc. it gets easier and easier every year.
However with Dell XPS Linux version, Lenovo has a couple, and also System76 and things you have now hundreds of laptops guaranteed to work and many more that actually still will. Just research them first if you're not sure. These days there is so much info on laptops that work well.
The first class supported ones like XPS (which I'm on my second) get firmware updates etc. it gets easier and easier every year.
One of the best things of Linux support is that the more mundane the laptop is, the better supported it tends to be. And also cheaper.
All I'm doing to have perfect Linux support in all my laptops is to go for the boring models. No RGB keyboard, no bleeding-edge dGPU's, and no dual, or foldable screens.
All I'm doing to have perfect Linux support in all my laptops is to go for the boring models. No RGB keyboard, no bleeding-edge dGPU's, and no dual, or foldable screens.
Adding to sibling: If you are in europe, check out https://www.tuxedocomputers.com
Disclaimer: Content customer
Disclaimer: Content customer
Same here. Awesome material!
This sounds like you're trying to buy brand new laptops and then slap distros with years old kernels on them. With most laptops, the network card is the only area where support is still not solid.
I think in general there is just very little hardware as attractive as a MacBook Pro that supports Linux well. If we take the requirements as being roughly: HiDPI screen, thin and light all metal body, USB C charging, tenkeyless keyboard with centered trackpad and reasonable expectation of mostly working out of the box with a standard Ubuntu iso.
Your options are pretty much just the Dell XPS/Precision line and the Lenovo X1 Extreme series? Anything else?
Your options are pretty much just the Dell XPS/Precision line and the Lenovo X1 Extreme series? Anything else?
Seriously? Intel MBP now has proprietary T2 chip, has other non-common chips, useless TouchBar instead of F keys, poor cooling design. It's also no future for Linux because they transitioning to Apple Silicon. It uses ARM for cpu march but they use original GPU that I think never be used for Linux. It also uses original boot sequence rather than UEFI.
No hardware provider really uses a standard network adapter, and as I said that's the main thing to check when purchasing a laptop. You can't have a reasonable expectation of just working, but that's all you should need to check.
Though, isn't the issue more that your listed requirements show a strong personal preference to macbooks?
Though, isn't the issue more that your listed requirements show a strong personal preference to macbooks?
Did any of you replying actual read my comment or did you just auto-reply "buy a supported Linux laptop"? I said ". With Windows I can buy pretty much any laptop and expect it to work with", and you are saying "Just research if the laptop you want to buy works with Linux", you are completely missing the point. I do not want to have to bother researching if a specific laptop will run Linux and research if all the hardware in that particular laptop will work. I want to buy the laptop I like and I want Linux to support that laptop, since it is commodity hardware. Same as I expect of Windows and Windows delivers in this aspect.
I, too, would like to live in a world where I do not need to research if a particular laptop will work with Linux.
The reason I don't live in that world is because laptop manufacturers, in the general course of things, don't ship their laptops with Linux; they ship them with Windows.
The obvious answer is to buy from manufacturers who ship their laptops with Linux. You could try Dell or System76.
Incidentally, it would be nice to live in a world where I didn't have to check for MacOS compatibility; I could just buy MacOS from Apple and run it on whatever. The answer is very similar: if you want that experience, buy it from the laptop manufacturer that ships their machines with MacOS.
The reason I don't live in that world is because laptop manufacturers, in the general course of things, don't ship their laptops with Linux; they ship them with Windows.
The obvious answer is to buy from manufacturers who ship their laptops with Linux. You could try Dell or System76.
Incidentally, it would be nice to live in a world where I didn't have to check for MacOS compatibility; I could just buy MacOS from Apple and run it on whatever. The answer is very similar: if you want that experience, buy it from the laptop manufacturer that ships their machines with MacOS.
Except that's not true, you can buy a laptop that has windows installed and it typically works. However trying to install windows yourself, you often run into all sorts of issues.
windows installation have improved dramatically over the last 3 years.
i always have had a debian and a windows laptop. for at least 20 years. 95% of my time is on the debian one.
this year was the first time where i thought a windows laptop might be enough. i am waiting for the next release of the WSL2 and i think i'm jumping ship for good.
i always have had a debian and a windows laptop. for at least 20 years. 95% of my time is on the debian one.
this year was the first time where i thought a windows laptop might be enough. i am waiting for the next release of the WSL2 and i think i'm jumping ship for good.
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I've often found that simply buying an older model of a relatively popular brand is more than enough to get a working combo.
My go-to is Lenovo, and sticking to the Thinkpad line. Occasionally I've had some growing pains, but I've found using a model that's at least 12-18 months old is more than sufficient for patches to have made it upstream.
Obviously if you have some specific need for a rather new model, then going for something like the Dell XPS line or some other "Linux Certified" line is a better plan. But for my needs, anything within the last 6 years will likely be good enough in my book. I tend to kick intensive jobs off to my local server or set up a one-off in the cloud.
My go-to is Lenovo, and sticking to the Thinkpad line. Occasionally I've had some growing pains, but I've found using a model that's at least 12-18 months old is more than sufficient for patches to have made it upstream.
Obviously if you have some specific need for a rather new model, then going for something like the Dell XPS line or some other "Linux Certified" line is a better plan. But for my needs, anything within the last 6 years will likely be good enough in my book. I tend to kick intensive jobs off to my local server or set up a one-off in the cloud.
+1 to this -- invested in a desktop earlier this year to tinker more with ML projects, and dual-booted Windows and Linux (Ubuntu 18 LTS) on separate SSDs with separate HDs for data storage for each system.
I have spent 95% of my time in Linux, and only get into Windows for a game or two that I haven't bothered to figure out a Windows VM setup for.
Definitely recommend Linux for those looking for dev machine alternatives to a Mac. There are certain finiticky things when setting up, and it doesn't have the immense MacOS polish, but I would say it's 80-90% of the way there to a good, intuitive dev machine that gives you a very similar experience to a Mac programming setup.
Note, I'm referring to a desktop setup, no idea about how it works with laptop hardware and I have a MBP for my portable needs.
I have spent 95% of my time in Linux, and only get into Windows for a game or two that I haven't bothered to figure out a Windows VM setup for.
Definitely recommend Linux for those looking for dev machine alternatives to a Mac. There are certain finiticky things when setting up, and it doesn't have the immense MacOS polish, but I would say it's 80-90% of the way there to a good, intuitive dev machine that gives you a very similar experience to a Mac programming setup.
Note, I'm referring to a desktop setup, no idea about how it works with laptop hardware and I have a MBP for my portable needs.
re: linux laptops, I'm writing this from one of the new Lenovo Carbon X1 models that comes pre-installed with Ubuntu. I prefer pop!_os (except for the name) so I installed that when I first got the machine, and it's worked with no issues. I've had it for a few weeks and zero complaints. The fingerprint reader even works with linux, which wasn't the case on my previous gen CX1 laptops.
Let me also just say that I am basically at the point where I may soon recommend a pop!_os machine to my parents (who are in their late 60's and have limited abilities on computers). Given that I'll personally be on the hook for any and all tech support, take that as a strong vote of confidence!
Let me also just say that I am basically at the point where I may soon recommend a pop!_os machine to my parents (who are in their late 60's and have limited abilities on computers). Given that I'll personally be on the hook for any and all tech support, take that as a strong vote of confidence!
I setup Debian on an old desktop for my mum a few years back, and she was able to use it happily with no issues or support from me - for the average person that just wants a web browser and some word processing it works great!
When it comes to development I find it immensely better, and found that it has also made me much more confident when I poke around on servers - no context switching between my local environment and remote.
The only thing I miss is Adobe lightroom, but I don't do so much photography these days so it's not a deal breaker
When it comes to development I find it immensely better, and found that it has also made me much more confident when I poke around on servers - no context switching between my local environment and remote.
The only thing I miss is Adobe lightroom, but I don't do so much photography these days so it's not a deal breaker
I've used Bibble 4/5 in the past (a decade ago!), which was cross platform and worked on Linux, and has evolved into Corel AfterShot Pro - still cross-platform and working on Linux. Maybe not as famous and powerful as Lightroom, but it's a pretty solid software.
wsl2? eat your cake, and have it.
> I have spent 95% of my time in Linux, and only get into Windows for a game or two that I haven't bothered to figure out a Windows VM setup for.
Have you tried Steamplay/proton (https://www.protondb.com/) or Lutris? (https://lutris.net/)
Have you tried Steamplay/proton (https://www.protondb.com/) or Lutris? (https://lutris.net/)
I second that. It's oddly under-advertised and not installed by default, but it works amazingly well. However, I still pay Ferral for their full ports to support the effort (most recently Shadow of the Tomb Raider).
I'm using PopOS (with i3 instead of Gnome) on a System76 laptop. I have some serious issues with resume from sleep. All browsers and electron apps have significant rendering issues after I resume and I have to close them down and restart them. I was able to fix Chrome and Firefox by enabling Vulkan, but Slack still requires a restart after every resume.
My external monitors periodically stop working due to an NVIDIA driver bug.
Have you had any similar issues?
My external monitors periodically stop working due to an NVIDIA driver bug.
Have you had any similar issues?
I am using pop on an oryx and my external monitor doesn’t wake up from sleep. Most flat pack apps don’t work right - especially anything electron based.
Zoom is a hot mess and fractional scaling still doesn’t work right.
I just tried disabling the hidpi daemon in hopes my monitor wakes up correctly. We’ll see.
All that said I am addicted to the speed of the OS compared to windows or Mac OS. I feel like I’m using the full power of the laptop.
I’ve not tried plasma but I miss a lot of my Mac shortcuts like super + left or right going to the end of the line. Still don’t have that working.
It’s so much better than it used to be but I would love to see one of the desktops reach the same level of polish as Mac or windows 10.
Zoom is a hot mess and fractional scaling still doesn’t work right.
I just tried disabling the hidpi daemon in hopes my monitor wakes up correctly. We’ll see.
All that said I am addicted to the speed of the OS compared to windows or Mac OS. I feel like I’m using the full power of the laptop.
I’ve not tried plasma but I miss a lot of my Mac shortcuts like super + left or right going to the end of the line. Still don’t have that working.
It’s so much better than it used to be but I would love to see one of the desktops reach the same level of polish as Mac or windows 10.
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It's possible the Chromium/Electron thing is this bug[1], which affects new proprietary nvidia drivers on recent Chromium versions. I also experienced that bug, though I don't think it affected Firefox for me.
It resolved itself for me recently in all apps except Slack. I have no idea why. I'm fairly sure I didn't update anything.
While it was still reproducing, I tested a purported fix in the upcoming Chromium 87 (or 88?) and it was resolved. So just wait a bit or try Canary. More specific info in the bug thread of course.
[1] https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=111304...
It resolved itself for me recently in all apps except Slack. I have no idea why. I'm fairly sure I didn't update anything.
While it was still reproducing, I tested a purported fix in the upcoming Chromium 87 (or 88?) and it was resolved. So just wait a bit or try Canary. More specific info in the bug thread of course.
[1] https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=111304...
I think this is a common problem on Nvidia. Firefox used to crash for me all the time coming out of hibernate. You can try Nvidia's solution.[1]
[1]: https://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86_64/455.38/READ...
[1]: https://download.nvidia.com/XFree86/Linux-x86_64/455.38/READ...
Yeah outside of Lubuntu I’ve had bad luck with resuming sleep on laptops. My desktop doesn’t ever go to sleep (Nvidia 1660x) but that’s because over the years I’ve just had so much trouble. I’d still take Fedora or Ubuntu over Windows any day as that’s my only complaint. Then again I’ve been a Linux users since 2006 so to I’m amazed at how great driver support is now even compared to a few years ago.
I'm running Pop_OS on my IdeaPad and have very few problems. From time to time, the Wifi doesn't come back up after resume (particularly when I've let it in sleep overnight, or switches networks while sleeping) and I have to reboot. As the machine boots in less than 12 seconds that's a tolerable annoyance though.
The machine is Ryzen5/Vega so it requires no proprietary driver though it isn't Linux certified at all. The only piece of non-working hardware is the fingerprint reader (apparently a driver will come someday...).
The machine is Ryzen5/Vega so it requires no proprietary driver though it isn't Linux certified at all. The only piece of non-working hardware is the fingerprint reader (apparently a driver will come someday...).
I have this exactly same problem - Chromium, Firefox, Electron - and it's apparently an unfixed bug in the nvidia drivers. For me it only started a few months ago. I'm on Ubuntu 20.10 and it's still a problem.
I have same problem. It’s 100% with Slack (and I suspected because Electron) but only occasional with Zoom and rarely with Firefox.
> I have the same effective level of support which is to say none-at-all or via the community of volunteers.
I find community support for linux much much better (askubuntu, superuser and numerous blogs rather than official ms forums). Not sure if this is because I am software developer and am used to stackoverflow-like kind of support or windows "community support" is a mess.
I find community support for linux much much better (askubuntu, superuser and numerous blogs rather than official ms forums). Not sure if this is because I am software developer and am used to stackoverflow-like kind of support or windows "community support" is a mess.
Official (free) support from Microsoft is pure garbage, but at least in my experience it is much easier to get support from the Windows community than Linux for a few reasons: 1) no ideological bullshit, 2) there aren't 100 different distros, 3) the way things are done doesn't change drastically every few years.
1) I agree, but it is quite easy to ignor. I do not see it often though.
2) Agree, but with popular distributions it is relatively easy to find help. With unpopular ones not so much, but you can always choose more common one. If you need to use some special distro experience can be worse.
3) Sorry, cannot disagree more. For me OS utilities in Ubuntu are dead simple and this works for me quite well. But once upon a time windows 10 decided that for some reason I must have 3 different English laouts (UK, US and Latin or smth like that). I did manage to remove redundant ones by performing some unobvious actions in unobvious settings sections. And extra layouts kept returning after reboots. I had other similarly annoying problems and they were difficult to resolve because solutions posted literally month before had completely different settings layout on screenshots compared to mine. In windows 10 settings do change drastically every few... months?
Command-line-based interfaces seem more stable. And most common issues are already have accessible solutions if you use stable release of popular Linux distro. At least in my experience.
2) Agree, but with popular distributions it is relatively easy to find help. With unpopular ones not so much, but you can always choose more common one. If you need to use some special distro experience can be worse.
3) Sorry, cannot disagree more. For me OS utilities in Ubuntu are dead simple and this works for me quite well. But once upon a time windows 10 decided that for some reason I must have 3 different English laouts (UK, US and Latin or smth like that). I did manage to remove redundant ones by performing some unobvious actions in unobvious settings sections. And extra layouts kept returning after reboots. I had other similarly annoying problems and they were difficult to resolve because solutions posted literally month before had completely different settings layout on screenshots compared to mine. In windows 10 settings do change drastically every few... months?
Command-line-based interfaces seem more stable. And most common issues are already have accessible solutions if you use stable release of popular Linux distro. At least in my experience.
I literally dread ever having to Google for help on Windows related issues because the various forums are some of the worst cesspools of crowdsourced ignorance out there[0]. Every question has a dozen or more responses and almost none of them have anything useful to say. Absolutely awful.
I suspect the reason the quality of the community support for Linux is so much better is that the community is smaller, self-selecting, and generally more knowledgeable versus the majority of the Windows community. Up until recently it required a certain commitment to run Linux on the desktop and that still bleeds through.
Normally when I buy a new computer I just get a Macbook Pro but, with Apple seeming a bit off the rails, and working from home making a desktop machine more viable again, I'm thinking about building my own machine. I'm also seriously considering Linux because Windows 10, I'm afraid, drives me to distraction most days (I have to use it for work unfortunately).
[0] The StackExchange sites aren't quite as bad, but the other forums are absolutely grim.
I suspect the reason the quality of the community support for Linux is so much better is that the community is smaller, self-selecting, and generally more knowledgeable versus the majority of the Windows community. Up until recently it required a certain commitment to run Linux on the desktop and that still bleeds through.
Normally when I buy a new computer I just get a Macbook Pro but, with Apple seeming a bit off the rails, and working from home making a desktop machine more viable again, I'm thinking about building my own machine. I'm also seriously considering Linux because Windows 10, I'm afraid, drives me to distraction most days (I have to use it for work unfortunately).
[0] The StackExchange sites aren't quite as bad, but the other forums are absolutely grim.
Personally I'm not a fan of gnome, but If you have a MacOs background Its understandable to prefer it on top of other Desktop-Environments. Do not forget to give a try to other D.E's thou, its always good to check new stuff, I always find delightful stuff effortlessly (:
For a long time I tried to make my Linux desktop look similar to my old windows machine, until recently I understood that I was compromising my productivity, so I started to look for new looks for my desktop, its like shopping at a free mall haha, I love it.
In 2018 I ended up calling both Apple and Microsoft for phone support within a few months of each other and, to my surprise, got excellent support from both of them. The Apple issues turned out to require an NvRAM/SMC reset to fix a weird performance issue. The Apple support person was very polite, helpful and knowledgeable.
The Microsoft issue was I’d bought a laptop which came with an Office trial, but wanted to enable Office using a license I bought through work. It required uninstalling the trial version, running a power shell command line tool to clean it up, then install the required SKU of Office. The MS rep was also very knowledgeable, logged on remotely with my permission and I watched the whole process. It took a while, but the engineer knew exactly what to do and did a great job.
That was the first time I’d had phone support from Apple or Microsoft. I wasn’t too surprised at Apple, I’ve had great support from the stores before so that extending that to over the phone wasn’t too much of a stretch. I was pleasantly surprised at the speed and quality of the support from Microsoft though, I really couldn’t have asked for more. It’s just brain bindingly ridiculous that getting their software, that’s supposedly already on the blasted machine to actually work took such a torturous set of steps to perform.
I suppose that’s all incidental to the thread, but anyway. The things that annoy me about Linux are the lack of system upgrade options, you basically have to reinstall from scratch every time, and the awkwardness of system backups. I’m spoiled by a Time Machine I suppose, it’s the thing I miss the most on Windows as well.
[EDIT - Looks like I'm missing some options on keeping Linux up to date, thanks for the tips]
The Microsoft issue was I’d bought a laptop which came with an Office trial, but wanted to enable Office using a license I bought through work. It required uninstalling the trial version, running a power shell command line tool to clean it up, then install the required SKU of Office. The MS rep was also very knowledgeable, logged on remotely with my permission and I watched the whole process. It took a while, but the engineer knew exactly what to do and did a great job.
That was the first time I’d had phone support from Apple or Microsoft. I wasn’t too surprised at Apple, I’ve had great support from the stores before so that extending that to over the phone wasn’t too much of a stretch. I was pleasantly surprised at the speed and quality of the support from Microsoft though, I really couldn’t have asked for more. It’s just brain bindingly ridiculous that getting their software, that’s supposedly already on the blasted machine to actually work took such a torturous set of steps to perform.
I suppose that’s all incidental to the thread, but anyway. The things that annoy me about Linux are the lack of system upgrade options, you basically have to reinstall from scratch every time, and the awkwardness of system backups. I’m spoiled by a Time Machine I suppose, it’s the thing I miss the most on Windows as well.
[EDIT - Looks like I'm missing some options on keeping Linux up to date, thanks for the tips]
> The things that annoy me about Linux are the lack of system upgrade options, you basically have to reinstall from scratch every time
You mean migrating data to new hardware? Or do you mean clicking "Yes, please upgrade" (or typing `sudo do-release-upgrade`) doesn't provide enough options?
You mean migrating data to new hardware? Or do you mean clicking "Yes, please upgrade" (or typing `sudo do-release-upgrade`) doesn't provide enough options?
> you basically have to reinstall from scratch every time
My main dev machine started as a Thinkpad running Ubuntu 9.04 and has not only been upgraded many times but has migrated its hardware twice and is now an Intel NUC on my desktop. Never reinstalled anything.
I used to reinstall Windows machines regularly because they'd bog down to uselessness or stop working after a few months. Since it's only a games machine I have learned the best maintenance program for Windows is to toss the machine every few years and replace it with brand-new hardware and software and reinstall the games from original media (mostly Steam). Also, never reboot because it will bog down my home internet connection doing a massive set of downloads from all MS and all the driver vendors and resynching all its trackers. Also also keep it isolated in the DMZ because it should be considered asymptomatic but infected at all times.
My main dev machine started as a Thinkpad running Ubuntu 9.04 and has not only been upgraded many times but has migrated its hardware twice and is now an Intel NUC on my desktop. Never reinstalled anything.
I used to reinstall Windows machines regularly because they'd bog down to uselessness or stop working after a few months. Since it's only a games machine I have learned the best maintenance program for Windows is to toss the machine every few years and replace it with brand-new hardware and software and reinstall the games from original media (mostly Steam). Also, never reboot because it will bog down my home internet connection doing a massive set of downloads from all MS and all the driver vendors and resynching all its trackers. Also also keep it isolated in the DMZ because it should be considered asymptomatic but infected at all times.
Linux Mint has an integrated backup solution called Timeshift. Upgrades are pretty seamless as well. The usual "wait a few months and let the brave ones uncover the bugs" applies here too, same as on OSX/Windows.
> The things that annoy me about Linux are the lack of system upgrade options, you basically have to reinstall from scratch every time
I'm using Fedora as my main OS (on the laptop since 2011, on the desktop since 2015) and here it's easy to upgrade to the next release, I've been doing it for years (with only 1 full reinstall at some point):
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/dnf-system-u...
I'm using Fedora as my main OS (on the laptop since 2011, on the desktop since 2015) and here it's easy to upgrade to the next release, I've been doing it for years (with only 1 full reinstall at some point):
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/quick-docs/dnf-system-u...
Similarly, I've upgraded an Ubuntu install every 6 months for the last 8 years, and it never gave an issue.
I'm not sure how high your requirement on the "it just werks" factor are, but I can not recommend borgbackup enough for general use. They have a script[0] for local backups one can copy-paste in a cronjob and it takes care of backups reliably from that day on. Saved me from my own stupidity more times than I'm comfortable admitting.
[0] https://borgbackup.readthedocs.io/en/stable/deployment/autom...
[0] https://borgbackup.readthedocs.io/en/stable/deployment/autom...
Not to disparage your comment or recommendation, but “it just works” typically means you don’t have to go looking for software (or muck with cron) to do things like ‘backups’.
For me, it’s reasons like that which keep me on Apple: 90% of my basic computer operation/maintenance usecases are already taken care of, or have first party software to take care of it.
I leave finessing linux operations and programs for my day job.
For me, it’s reasons like that which keep me on Apple: 90% of my basic computer operation/maintenance usecases are already taken care of, or have first party software to take care of it.
I leave finessing linux operations and programs for my day job.
also restic.
> The things that annoy me about Linux are the lack of system upgrade options, you basically have to reinstall from scratch every time...
Run a rolling release then like Manjaro or another Arch based system. I’ve been running the latest release of my distro for years, never had to reinstall.
Also, there are plenty of free backup apps for Linux like Deja Dupe or Back-in-time. I don’t really bother with them though because all of my important stuff goes into git, even my dot files.
Run a rolling release then like Manjaro or another Arch based system. I’ve been running the latest release of my distro for years, never had to reinstall.
Also, there are plenty of free backup apps for Linux like Deja Dupe or Back-in-time. I don’t really bother with them though because all of my important stuff goes into git, even my dot files.
You need a root and a home partition, than you can do whatever, upgrade it, nuke it.
pop_os updates are fairly seamless most of the time but I usually do a clean reset anyway since I wrote a 'post-install' bash script to setup up my computer exactly how I like it. its a bit of work to set up but I would definitely recommend it.
i have all my program settings files saved in a syncthing folder and the script creates softlinks where those files are supposed to be. dconf let's you backup and restore a ton of settings in one go. the only thing I have to do after the script is done is log into websites and then my computer is fully set up
i have all my program settings files saved in a syncthing folder and the script creates softlinks where those files are supposed to be. dconf let's you backup and restore a ton of settings in one go. the only thing I have to do after the script is done is log into websites and then my computer is fully set up
+1 for Nord. I used it everywhere - terminal, vs code, browser theme, gtk theme
> Making apps, or interacting with the OS, is absurdly easy using GTK and Python vs anything Microsoft or Apple have to offer.
I strongly doubt Python+GTK is easier option compared to WinForms/WPF. Maybe installing IDE is blocker for you?
I strongly doubt Python+GTK is easier option compared to WinForms/WPF. Maybe installing IDE is blocker for you?
I use Nord in vim. I wasn't aware of the GTK theme. I'll check it out!
Are you saying it's finally the year of Linux desktop?
But I can't resist using macOS at this point and their hardware.
I'd like to see someone run Linux on the new M1 hardware.
But I can't resist using macOS at this point and their hardware.
I'd like to see someone run Linux on the new M1 hardware.
Linux is an acceptable alternative. In reality, when you have to interact with the "real business world," you need windows.
I am a sample size of 1. For me, the inconveniences of using linux are far greater than the inconveniences of using windows. This article is targeted at the developer community mostly.
As a programmer, I cannot recall being hindered by file name conventions, un-resizeable dialog boxes, bug trackers etc., as much I have been inconvenienced on linux by poor driver support, and regularly dropping to command line for configuring my system.
As a gamer, well, there is no competition for me, really.
As your average user, I find the user interface on windows nicer and see more compatible programs.
If there is anything I absolutely have to have linux for, I can just use a raspberry pi, a cloud server etc.
As a programmer, I cannot recall being hindered by file name conventions, un-resizeable dialog boxes, bug trackers etc., as much I have been inconvenienced on linux by poor driver support, and regularly dropping to command line for configuring my system.
As a gamer, well, there is no competition for me, really.
As your average user, I find the user interface on windows nicer and see more compatible programs.
If there is anything I absolutely have to have linux for, I can just use a raspberry pi, a cloud server etc.
As Linux user the article does not resonate with me. The actual points are discarded points
# Linux is more stable and reliable.
I've reinstalled Windows so many times, never reinstalled Linux. System is separate from the user, I can remove all user configurations and it would work like new.
# Linux is more secure and private.
I have so many packages, they are free and safe. I've tried Windows recently, have to install software from the web. It is scary.
No telemetry by default. I send package statistics, have install it myself:
There are many communities, some run Destkop Environments, I run quite minimal setup, boot to graphical environment takes 100MB RAM. Old netbook is router/NAS, 1GB is plenty.
# Linux is more flexible and customizable.
Primary reason I've switched. So many options, it is awesome! GNOME, KDE, XFCE, OpenBox, wmii, dwm, xmonad. Entire distributions — Ubuntu, Arch, Nix and many more.
# Linux gives you more control over your computer.
There was liberating feeling — my computer is just a hardware. Never felt it with Windows, it always had its own way. You know, some people kick their computers in rage. That has gone.
Linux has a great driver support for supported hardware, it is like complaining about hackintosh. Windows adopting command line and package management tools. Yes, had to stop gaming, that's changing with Proton. I find Windows UI atrocious, my desktop for comparison:
http://sergeykish.com/side-by-side-no-decorations.png
multiple workspaces, no decorations, not even browser scroll bar. I'd like to have universal solution for sticky headers.
And, maybe, the most valuable — Linux is getting better while Windows and macOS getting worse. Telemetry, advertisement, walled garden, executable restrictions, firewall bypass, proprietary hardware — scandal after scandal. While on the Linux side — AMD GPU, Wayland, Flatpak, Steam Proton, web applications, better than ever laptops support.
# Linux is more stable and reliable.
I've reinstalled Windows so many times, never reinstalled Linux. System is separate from the user, I can remove all user configurations and it would work like new.
# Linux is more secure and private.
I have so many packages, they are free and safe. I've tried Windows recently, have to install software from the web. It is scary.
No telemetry by default. I send package statistics, have install it myself:
# pacman -S pkgstats
There are many communities, some run Destkop Environments, I run quite minimal setup, boot to graphical environment takes 100MB RAM. Old netbook is router/NAS, 1GB is plenty.
# Linux is more flexible and customizable.
Primary reason I've switched. So many options, it is awesome! GNOME, KDE, XFCE, OpenBox, wmii, dwm, xmonad. Entire distributions — Ubuntu, Arch, Nix and many more.
# Linux gives you more control over your computer.
There was liberating feeling — my computer is just a hardware. Never felt it with Windows, it always had its own way. You know, some people kick their computers in rage. That has gone.
Linux has a great driver support for supported hardware, it is like complaining about hackintosh. Windows adopting command line and package management tools. Yes, had to stop gaming, that's changing with Proton. I find Windows UI atrocious, my desktop for comparison:
http://sergeykish.com/side-by-side-no-decorations.png
multiple workspaces, no decorations, not even browser scroll bar. I'd like to have universal solution for sticky headers.
And, maybe, the most valuable — Linux is getting better while Windows and macOS getting worse. Telemetry, advertisement, walled garden, executable restrictions, firewall bypass, proprietary hardware — scandal after scandal. While on the Linux side — AMD GPU, Wayland, Flatpak, Steam Proton, web applications, better than ever laptops support.
I have literally not needed to reinstall Windows in close to a decade.
You couldn't pay me to put up with the massively inferior environment of any of the Linux DEs at this point. They are all, in varying ways, completely miserable to use.
Windows 10 is actually a really solid OS, and virtualization makes it so easy to spin up a Linux VM if I really need it.
You couldn't pay me to put up with the massively inferior environment of any of the Linux DEs at this point. They are all, in varying ways, completely miserable to use.
Windows 10 is actually a really solid OS, and virtualization makes it so easy to spin up a Linux VM if I really need it.
I've recently reinstalled Windows for brother in law. System become unusable, quite performant after reinstall. Looks like your experience is not universal. And I can not remove user configurations as I can on Linux.
I've tried Windows 10, it is not bad as consumer OS. Tray notifications gone, so good. WSL1 has limitations, should be solved in WSL2. PowerShell, OpenSSH and winget are good improvements.
Windows interface is changing, at least some people should like it. I feel it is getting progressively worse. That's strange — I like macOS Aqua. I didn't like brushed metal, it has gone now. I have no other explanation but blind spot of Windows users.
I've tried Windows 10, it is not bad as consumer OS. Tray notifications gone, so good. WSL1 has limitations, should be solved in WSL2. PowerShell, OpenSSH and winget are good improvements.
Windows interface is changing, at least some people should like it. I feel it is getting progressively worse. That's strange — I like macOS Aqua. I didn't like brushed metal, it has gone now. I have no other explanation but blind spot of Windows users.
We Windows users just have no rational choice - the utility is carefully tuned to outweigh the annoyances and anti-features for the majority of users.
So we suck up MS treatment of us as cattle whose data and behaviours to be harvested and the dumbing down of the UI in the interest of getting things done and getting on with our lives.
It's a faustian bargain, but the alternative is worse.
I already work on a computer all week, then and spend a lot of my discretionary time on it for career research, for necessary involvement in modern life and for some leisure.
If I fulfil my desire to use linux for all the various advanced desktop scenarios I demand of my computer I'm giving up the remaining free time in my life!! And for what - to tweak driver configurations and DEs, again, AGAIN, for the hundredth or thousandth time in my life to keep things working. Learning how everything works was fun but constantly canoodling with configuration and setup for the nth time is as pointless as working around MS antifeatures, and seems to take up more time on balance if you are doing a wide variety of advanced scenarios occasionally (in my experience as a 20 year linux tinkerer).
So it's not a blind spot, it's a faustian bargain to have some hours left in my life to exercise, to look after my health, to go outside and enjoy the garden and live a wider life.
So we suck up MS treatment of us as cattle whose data and behaviours to be harvested and the dumbing down of the UI in the interest of getting things done and getting on with our lives.
It's a faustian bargain, but the alternative is worse.
I already work on a computer all week, then and spend a lot of my discretionary time on it for career research, for necessary involvement in modern life and for some leisure.
If I fulfil my desire to use linux for all the various advanced desktop scenarios I demand of my computer I'm giving up the remaining free time in my life!! And for what - to tweak driver configurations and DEs, again, AGAIN, for the hundredth or thousandth time in my life to keep things working. Learning how everything works was fun but constantly canoodling with configuration and setup for the nth time is as pointless as working around MS antifeatures, and seems to take up more time on balance if you are doing a wide variety of advanced scenarios occasionally (in my experience as a 20 year linux tinkerer).
So it's not a blind spot, it's a faustian bargain to have some hours left in my life to exercise, to look after my health, to go outside and enjoy the garden and live a wider life.
And I’m the opposite, always running into annoyances on Windows. It’s that our brains are trained on two different systems not that either is superior. I live in the terminal anyway except for VSCode, Chrome and Steam: so the DE doesn’t really concern me I use the default on Fedora and Ubuntu.
> "You couldn't pay me to put up with the massively inferior environment of any of the Linux DEs at this point."
Sounds like you're using Visual Studio... which at this point is closer to an Operating System than an IDE...
Sounds like you're using Visual Studio... which at this point is closer to an Operating System than an IDE...
Why do you say that? I just hate jank, and KDE, Gnome, and XFCE are all janky as hell in their own infuriating ways.
PS: I haven't had any version of Visual Studio installed since about 2004.
PS: I haven't had any version of Visual Studio installed since about 2004.
Can you give examples of what you disliked in each of KDE, GNOME and XFCE?
Ahh, my mistake, I misread your initial comment to be about IDE's.
I would encourage you to try Gnome again. I use it everyday on a 7 year old laptop with Ubuntu, and it is impressively stable and smooth and a pleasure to multi-task with vertical windows.
I would encourage you to try Gnome again. I use it everyday on a 7 year old laptop with Ubuntu, and it is impressively stable and smooth and a pleasure to multi-task with vertical windows.
My Linux computer uses a tiling-based window manager, and damn, I could never go back. The workspaces concept they use is infinitely superior to alt-tab.
Windows has virtual desktops with Win + Alt + Tab to show the options and then you can switch with Win + Alt + Left/Right arrow. Also you can tile your apps in every corner/side you want or size? I use a 43" Dell 4k monitor and it even comes with software (Dell Display Manager) to manage all these options.
Microsoft has revived the good old PowerToys as well. It now includes a FancyZones utility that allows to define zones that windows can automatically snap into while dragging them (while holding a key). It also has a setting to overwrite the Win+Arrow key functionality to move windows between these "fancy zones" instead.
Maybe this is interesting for you?
https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/releases
Maybe this is interesting for you?
https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/releases
That sounds interesting! Thanks for bringing this to my attention I'll definitely check it out!
Well it's better than alt-tab, but if it relies on arrow keys, it's not ideal. Being able to go directly to any workspace with a dedicated key combo is the best option.
> Linux is getting better while Windows and macOS getting worse.
Well, some things are arguably not getting better.
> Flatpak
That's part of what's getting worse: Fracturing/deterioration of the use of distribution package management, instead of improving and expanding it.
> web applications
Another part of what's getting worse: Instead of having compact apps you have to load a behemoth of some web browser/app framework, to do semi-trivial things.
There's also systemd; Gnome having taken application UI in a weird an (IMHO) unfortunate direction, and the fact (?) that the hardware resource requirements have risen significantly.
Well, some things are arguably not getting better.
> Flatpak
That's part of what's getting worse: Fracturing/deterioration of the use of distribution package management, instead of improving and expanding it.
> web applications
Another part of what's getting worse: Instead of having compact apps you have to load a behemoth of some web browser/app framework, to do semi-trivial things.
There's also systemd; Gnome having taken application UI in a weird an (IMHO) unfortunate direction, and the fact (?) that the hardware resource requirements have risen significantly.
Everything has positive and negative consequences. These are just tools, they provide choice.
There is a need to package closed source software, to provide dependencies. Some people use outdated distributions, that's root cause. If distribution is switching I'd better search like minded and help with maintaining (or it would be systemd scenario).
At least there is application. Everyone is free to make native. There is Void (Linux), runit [1], at least on Arch Linux there is big choice [2]. Fork Gnome, KDE 3 forked as Trinity Desktop Environment [3]. Boot to xmonad — 100MB RAM, Chromium — several GB RAM.
It is easy to imagine arguments against — Steam builds distribution platform on top of Linux, no packages there, Wayland vs X11, distributions spread resources, maintainers breaks software. I am not Steam user, I am not Ubuntu user, but I benefit from wider community.
[1] https://voidlinux.org/
[2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/init
[3] http://www.trinitydesktop.org/
There is a need to package closed source software, to provide dependencies. Some people use outdated distributions, that's root cause. If distribution is switching I'd better search like minded and help with maintaining (or it would be systemd scenario).
At least there is application. Everyone is free to make native. There is Void (Linux), runit [1], at least on Arch Linux there is big choice [2]. Fork Gnome, KDE 3 forked as Trinity Desktop Environment [3]. Boot to xmonad — 100MB RAM, Chromium — several GB RAM.
It is easy to imagine arguments against — Steam builds distribution platform on top of Linux, no packages there, Wayland vs X11, distributions spread resources, maintainers breaks software. I am not Steam user, I am not Ubuntu user, but I benefit from wider community.
[1] https://voidlinux.org/
[2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/init
[3] http://www.trinitydesktop.org/
> That's part of what's getting worse: Fracturing/deterioration of the use of distribution package management, instead of improving and expanding it.
Indeed, the popularity of docker, flatpak and hobby/fad distributions and language-specific package managers is leading to many security nightmares and harming traditional distributions.
There are reasons for painstakingly vet and package software:
- security
- stability AKA you don't want to force feature upgrades with new bugs on servers and workstations
- legal compliance: people are unaware of the amount of license issues in docker hub, flatpaks and most distributions
Indeed, the popularity of docker, flatpak and hobby/fad distributions and language-specific package managers is leading to many security nightmares and harming traditional distributions.
There are reasons for painstakingly vet and package software:
- security
- stability AKA you don't want to force feature upgrades with new bugs on servers and workstations
- legal compliance: people are unaware of the amount of license issues in docker hub, flatpaks and most distributions
> language-specific package managers
I wouldn't include those on the same list. It makes sense for various (source-form) libraries to be maintained and updated and made available independently of the OS and uniformly across operating systems. I don't see this as undermining Linux distributions - as these are used when you're making your own builds anyway.
Otherwise - yes, agreed, and it's also about redundancy and bloat when installing software; and some entities writing software that can only run on their own docker image; etc.
I wouldn't include those on the same list. It makes sense for various (source-form) libraries to be maintained and updated and made available independently of the OS and uniformly across operating systems. I don't see this as undermining Linux distributions - as these are used when you're making your own builds anyway.
Otherwise - yes, agreed, and it's also about redundancy and bloat when installing software; and some entities writing software that can only run on their own docker image; etc.
> these are used when you're making your own builds anyway
That's the problem: they encourage building with tons of random stuff pulled from the Internet on the fly, sidestepping OS distributions completely and providing no reproducible building, no vetting, no license review, no long-term security.
The leftpad disaster is a good example.
That's the problem: they encourage building with tons of random stuff pulled from the Internet on the fly, sidestepping OS distributions completely and providing no reproducible building, no vetting, no license review, no long-term security.
The leftpad disaster is a good example.
Can you link to a description of "the leftpad disaster"?
Also - it's not supposed to be "tons of random stuff", it's supposed to be the libraries you're relying on. Maybe I'm missing something in the point you're making?
Also - it's not supposed to be "tons of random stuff", it's supposed to be the libraries you're relying on. Maybe I'm missing something in the point you're making?
Random link: https://www.davidhaney.io/npm-left-pad-have-we-forgotten-how...
> it's supposed to be the libraries you're relying on
When an ecosystem has poor engineering practices and encourages small libraries with many dependencies you get a quadratic explosion of indirect dependencies.
You might not care about having 100 transitive dependencies until a poor soul has to maintain your code in 4 or 10 years from now.
> it's supposed to be the libraries you're relying on
When an ecosystem has poor engineering practices and encourages small libraries with many dependencies you get a quadratic explosion of indirect dependencies.
You might not care about having 100 transitive dependencies until a poor soul has to maintain your code in 4 or 10 years from now.
It has been ages since I had to reinstall windows.
I was a thing I just did once in a while more than a decade ago but I haven't had to on multiple systems for a long time now.
I was a thing I just did once in a while more than a decade ago but I haven't had to on multiple systems for a long time now.
Unfortunately I always got my windows updates as soon as possible which meant lots of bricked systems because Microsoft doesn't test their updates.
Maybe try to defer them for a week?
I do that, and have had no issues in the Windows 10 timeframe across 3-4 Win 10 OSes, one on canary, err Windows Insider (slow ring).
I do that, and have had no issues in the Windows 10 timeframe across 3-4 Win 10 OSes, one on canary, err Windows Insider (slow ring).
Generally I install as soon as I get a notice, never had that issue.
>I have so many packages, they are free and safe. I've tried Windows recently, have to install software from the web. It is scary.
If you write it this way (without details) then how people can argue?
What's so scary? I think I'm using 99% of my software from an actual vendor sites and never felt that way. Also using things like virustotal.com.
If you write it this way (without details) then how people can argue?
What's so scary? I think I'm using 99% of my software from an actual vendor sites and never felt that way. Also using things like virustotal.com.
It was unexpected. But could you feel it without experiencing?
I've used open source OS for a decade. It has changed my mind. I've never downloaded software from site. I trust community, not vendors. I use just one non open source application (slack) and I do not trust them, I'd rather run it in a sandbox.
My system comes with a framework to download, build, install any package with just a few commands:
No other ecosystem comes close. Browser extensions and smartphone applications replicate some of it but
* it can be adware/spyware/malware
* it can change overnight, no one checks
* one gallery by popularity or by restriction
Even my closed source software comes from community maintained recipes, Windows finally got it with winget.
Oh, I know! Compare it with programming language package managers — gems, pip, cargo.
I've used open source OS for a decade. It has changed my mind. I've never downloaded software from site. I trust community, not vendors. I use just one non open source application (slack) and I do not trust them, I'd rather run it in a sandbox.
My system comes with a framework to download, build, install any package with just a few commands:
$ yay -G foo
$ cd foo
$ makepkg -sei
No other ecosystem comes close. Browser extensions and smartphone applications replicate some of it but
* it can be adware/spyware/malware
* it can change overnight, no one checks
* one gallery by popularity or by restriction
Even my closed source software comes from community maintained recipes, Windows finally got it with winget.
Oh, I know! Compare it with programming language package managers — gems, pip, cargo.
Maybe I'm kinda skewed because I started with Windows, but I don't feel difference between downloading e.g Firefox on Windows and typing `apt-get install nginx` on Linux.
Maybe because it requires "huge shittons" of effort to try to controle the software, and yet, at the end of the day I still have to trust somebody (OS, Drivers, ISP, Firmware/Hardware, Govt)
Maybe because it requires "huge shittons" of effort to try to controle the software, and yet, at the end of the day I still have to trust somebody (OS, Drivers, ISP, Firmware/Hardware, Govt)
I just don't expect every developer to be an expert at packaging their app. There's a thousand things to think of, and they might do an unreasonable hack just to get away with distribution.
If you get your packages from a single source, you mostly have to trust that source (lower attack surface), and can be assured they will meet a minimum quality level.
Example oopses from valve (but really, most vendors have theirs):
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/3671
https://amonitoring.ru/article/steamclient-0day/
If you get your packages from a single source, you mostly have to trust that source (lower attack surface), and can be assured they will meet a minimum quality level.
Example oopses from valve (but really, most vendors have theirs):
https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steam-for-linux/issues/3671
https://amonitoring.ru/article/steamclient-0day/
I've used Windows for 10 years prior that. Maybe the difference is not touching Windows for 10 years.
Sure, it is about trust. Browser addons and language packages pushed by authors, this results in leftpad, spyware. Distributions dissolves authors power, provides buffer, they pull new versions, walk it through stages, there are many eyes and build is (often) reproducible, stable distributions pull only critical updates. Overall effect would not be as dramatic.
https://tests.reproducible-builds.org/archlinux/archlinux.ht...
Sure, it is about trust. Browser addons and language packages pushed by authors, this results in leftpad, spyware. Distributions dissolves authors power, provides buffer, they pull new versions, walk it through stages, there are many eyes and build is (often) reproducible, stable distributions pull only critical updates. Overall effect would not be as dramatic.
https://tests.reproducible-builds.org/archlinux/archlinux.ht...
This is actually one of the major annoyances for me in Linux. Each distro has its own package manager and set of packages. Yay, yum, apt, pacman, dpkg, portage, the list is near endless and as each package manager needs a reason to exist, each will try to be different. For simple use cases such as installing a package, this is fine. But for example, finding out how to search for available packages can take quite some time on a new distro.
And having all these different package managers require me to either have blind trust in a lot of different communities, or spend a lot of time comparing CRCs and reading code.
And having all these different package managers require me to either have blind trust in a lot of different communities, or spend a lot of time comparing CRCs and reading code.
This stance actually annoys me. Should we ditch all but one and only web browser? desktop environment? file manager? database? terminal? language? There it starts and where it ends? And who decides what the true form is?
I do not like apt, dpkg, aptitude — interface is not good, output extremely verbose by default and it was slow. Its existence does not annoy me as I do not use it anymore. I use pacman, but this annoys you, what should I do? Abandon it and fill the web with grieve?
Maybe you have to work with different distributions, it should not be hard to create (or google) wrapper https://github.com/icy/pacapt
Separate communities is Linux power. We do not argue on a true form, we solve our needs.
I do not like apt, dpkg, aptitude — interface is not good, output extremely verbose by default and it was slow. Its existence does not annoy me as I do not use it anymore. I use pacman, but this annoys you, what should I do? Abandon it and fill the web with grieve?
Maybe you have to work with different distributions, it should not be hard to create (or google) wrapper https://github.com/icy/pacapt
Separate communities is Linux power. We do not argue on a true form, we solve our needs.
I recently spent 30 minutes figuring out why the Bluetooth pairing process wasn't giving me the pin number I needed to pair my new wireless keyboard. Ugh. Eventually, after searching through forums, I updated the right modules to get it working. I want to use Linux as my daily driver, but I am frustrated by little things that don't work or go wrong.
I find myself using my Android phone a lot more when on Linux... just because I have to practically work around some things, because I don't have all day to debug non-essential tasks.
For instance, I upgraded Fedora from 32 to 33, and Spotify stopped working. Can this be fixed? I'm absolutely sure it can be fixed. Do I have time? No.
I have watched way too many coworkers bomb meetings because of trying to use bluetooth headsets on Linux. Am I trying to cause suffering? No, I will use a headset with the good old headphone jack, because I have something else that I need to do with my actual day.
For instance, I upgraded Fedora from 32 to 33, and Spotify stopped working. Can this be fixed? I'm absolutely sure it can be fixed. Do I have time? No.
I have watched way too many coworkers bomb meetings because of trying to use bluetooth headsets on Linux. Am I trying to cause suffering? No, I will use a headset with the good old headphone jack, because I have something else that I need to do with my actual day.
I've actually quit using Bluetooth for Zoom meetings on Windows because it has been too unreliable.
I have done this too, partially. The problem with bluetooth on windows is that it doesn't work in duplex mode. You can't use speaker and mic together on bluetooth. If you disable the module for mic(don't remember what it's called) then the speaker function works perfectly.
All the support posts that I read told me that bluetooth is the problem, not windows. But I call BS on that as the bluetooth duplexing works perfectly fine on Linux as well as macos.
All the support posts that I read told me that bluetooth is the problem, not windows. But I call BS on that as the bluetooth duplexing works perfectly fine on Linux as well as macos.
The support posts are right. Bluetooth is not full-duplex when you are using it in A2DP mode (required for stereo audio).
Bluetooth and zoom is very unreliable on my work mac laptop as well.
I've been using Windows for the past couple years for work after mostly using Ubuntu for several years. I felt the same way about Bluetooth but I've found all the Bluetooth problems I thought were "Linux" are just as bad on Windows. But Windows is just a lot more unstable. Every other week there's some new thing that breaks in a confusing way, and it's all closed source shovelware so I can't even figure out what is causing the problem.
Counter example I've been using bluetooth for keyboard, mouse and headphones on my Surface Pro 1 since the Surface Pro 1 was released in I think 2013 or 2014. Never reinstalled Windows, and it works to this day as it did on day 1. I use it 3/4 times a week for maybe 5 hours when I'm not at my PC.
I used to try Linux once a year or so but gave up doing that a few years ago because there is no single place to go to for answers and it's a time sink. The operating system needs to get out of my way so that I can make software. Windows does that.
I'm sure bias has a lot to do with my perception, I'm ok with that.
I used to try Linux once a year or so but gave up doing that a few years ago because there is no single place to go to for answers and it's a time sink. The operating system needs to get out of my way so that I can make software. Windows does that.
I'm sure bias has a lot to do with my perception, I'm ok with that.
It might be that the Surface laptops legitimately "just work." I am using a bleeding-edge MSI gaming laptop and its drivers are very bad. Bluetooth is just the easiest problem to identify and point at in a single word.
Windows updates unstable ? That seems strange. Can you describe what "breaks in a confusing way" ?
Windows updates break things all the time. A common headline in my google feed around Feature Upgrade season is "Reminder: disable Windows Update to avoid problems". Microsoft has made updating windows a liability.
I was using windows for years, both in work and at home. It never ever break up that often for me. Serious question: what is breaking up that often for all? I mean, which part of the system, what it does when it breaks?
Bluetooth is a god damn mess regardless of OS. Probably (I have not tried, just assuming) the one exception being Apple hardware with Apple OS. Especially audio and keyboard.
Haven't had any issues with Microsoft mice on Linux, though. knocks on wood
Haven't had any issues with Microsoft mice on Linux, though. knocks on wood
Funny how these things work. For many years while I was dual booting I had a bluetooth receiver that I used regularly with Linux, where it just worked, but was never able to get it working reliably on Windows.
Proton makes almost everything playable on linux. Sometimes with worse performance, sometimes with a lot better performance so it balances out.
Many of the multiplayer games I play won't work on linux, typically due to the anticheat software they use. Also, there's typically a few hoops to jump through for popular games.
Anticheat is a rootkit, right? That's almost complaining Windows viruses does not run in Wine.
Viruses and other malware can sometimes run under Wine: https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2007-January/053...
Yeah well thats just modern software I guess. Malware as a feature.
With proton, the hoops are rare, not typical.
I have to use golden egg roll fork but it has been very impressive what it will run.
Just for balance, I use KDE Plasma with an AMD graphics card but almost no games work, even those with a "gold" rating on ProtonDB.
I haven't had time to Google how to debug the problem, but only about 1 in 10 games "just work"
Update: OK, instead of surfing HN I googled the problem. I think it may be that my games are installed on an NTFS drive. I will try moving the installs to a new drive and see if I have more success!
I haven't had time to Google how to debug the problem, but only about 1 in 10 games "just work"
Update: OK, instead of surfing HN I googled the problem. I think it may be that my games are installed on an NTFS drive. I will try moving the installs to a new drive and see if I have more success!
[deleted]
>As a gamer, well, there is no competition for me, really.
In 2018 I switched to Arch Linux at home because I heard "Linux has less games". Before that I used Linux exclusively at work. To test it out I installed it on a 32GB flash drive so that I don't have the urge to install games when I'm space limited. It worked for the first 3 months. Then I got a new SSD and installed it there. A few days later proton came out and I ended up clocking in 600 hours in Warframe. The idea that linux has "no games" is an urban myth. I got scammed by Windows users.
In 2018 I switched to Arch Linux at home because I heard "Linux has less games". Before that I used Linux exclusively at work. To test it out I installed it on a 32GB flash drive so that I don't have the urge to install games when I'm space limited. It worked for the first 3 months. Then I got a new SSD and installed it there. A few days later proton came out and I ended up clocking in 600 hours in Warframe. The idea that linux has "no games" is an urban myth. I got scammed by Windows users.
You're conflating "less games" with "no games". Linux has less games available. (I guess a lot less but I haven't played in decades.)
If we want to be the biggest pedants we possibly can: you're confusing "less games" with "fewer games".
Have you ever tried to disable something that windows insists you use? Like all the telemetry? Just try to stay on top of that. Impossible because you're not in charge of your machine, Microsoft is. You change it, they just change it back. Frustrating.
On Linux? Its yours. Change anything you want.
All arguments of convenience go out the window when you are not in control.
On Linux? Its yours. Change anything you want.
All arguments of convenience go out the window when you are not in control.
Recently had enough with windows and gave linux a try. Love it.It’s really good for SW development especially for experimenting and exploring languages. For work I still use windows but as soon as work is over i reboot into linux.
But Im no tipical user, I don’t play games and don’t consume a lot of modern media or crazy new hardware, but do watch some youtube, listen to podcasts and read a lot and linux offers more than what I need. Linux got to a point that installing it is way frictionless. I had some attempts to install linux 15 and then maybe 10 years ago and gave up quickly. Nowadays not only that it runs live off a usb stick, it also installs easily on an existing windows system with a choice of partition of any convenient size.
Also playing with python, racket, chicken scheme plays a whole lot nicer under Linux. I am really thrilled to be on Linux.
But Im no tipical user, I don’t play games and don’t consume a lot of modern media or crazy new hardware, but do watch some youtube, listen to podcasts and read a lot and linux offers more than what I need. Linux got to a point that installing it is way frictionless. I had some attempts to install linux 15 and then maybe 10 years ago and gave up quickly. Nowadays not only that it runs live off a usb stick, it also installs easily on an existing windows system with a choice of partition of any convenient size.
Also playing with python, racket, chicken scheme plays a whole lot nicer under Linux. I am really thrilled to be on Linux.
That is something I do not care about it enough to dissuade me from the rest of the windows experience. Even accounting for it, the windows experience is still superior to linux for me. I suspect this applies to a big chunk of the population as well who don't care about open source/telemetry etc. If it comes down to it, I can add some rules in the hosts file or run some powershell scripts.
>If it comes down to it, I can add some rules in the hosts file or run some powershell scripts.
Beware of this though, if you really want to remove all the telemetry. Seems like telemetry is deeply ingrained in the OS. Last time I used Windows tried to enable every option in O&O ShutUp10, got a BSOD.
Beware of this though, if you really want to remove all the telemetry. Seems like telemetry is deeply ingrained in the OS. Last time I used Windows tried to enable every option in O&O ShutUp10, got a BSOD.
on top of that, Microsoft has thousands of different domains they use for telemetry, good luck trying to stay up to date with that...
"sometimes one wonders why you just don't shut up and tell
people to buy a PC with Windows or a Mac. No Gulag or lice, just a future whose intellectual tone and interaction style is set by Sonic the Hedgehog."
Dennis R.
Dennis R.
I have to confirm this (in general).
I have a secondary Win10 OS and, throughout months, after each update it kept losing more and more of the preferences which I initially set -> too frustrating -> I gave up trying to have it be set the way I want.
The same can happen of course as well on Linux, but it happens definitely less frequently.
I have a secondary Win10 OS and, throughout months, after each update it kept losing more and more of the preferences which I initially set -> too frustrating -> I gave up trying to have it be set the way I want.
The same can happen of course as well on Linux, but it happens definitely less frequently.
Telemetry is disgusting but can’t stop wondering if it’s pervert invasion or consensus building if it’s not done the way it’s done now. “popcon” has been around for long.
>regularly dropping to command line for configuring my system
I've really never understood this complaint. "oh why do I have to use a standardized set of abstractions for configuration instead of bizarre bespoke GUIs that are different for every piece of software."
I've really never understood this complaint. "oh why do I have to use a standardized set of abstractions for configuration instead of bizarre bespoke GUIs that are different for every piece of software."
> "oh why do I have to use a standardized set of abstractions for configuration"
Linux config files absolutely do not follow one standardized convention.
Linux config files absolutely do not follow one standardized convention.
Its pretty simple: GUI is more intuitive. I do not find them bizarre. Their diversity or bespokeness doesn't register as a hindrance to me. The options are visible all at once, or are a couple of clicks away. Contrast this with the command line where I more or less have to memorize each application's interface or look online or browse the manual for answers.
GUI lets me use keyboard + mouse. CLI is keyboard only.
Regardless of any rationale, my experience is what it is. No amount of counterpoints are going to change what I've felt using CLIs.
GUI lets me use keyboard + mouse. CLI is keyboard only.
Regardless of any rationale, my experience is what it is. No amount of counterpoints are going to change what I've felt using CLIs.
>GUI is more intuitive.
I would completely disagree here, they're more aesthetic but not more intuitive or discoverable.
Compare tar with apple's camera app on the iphone for example: tar --help will tell you how to do everything in the app. Is there something equivalent that tells how to do manual focus in the camera app? (yes, it's supported that for years and no one knows how to do it because it won't tell you.)
I would completely disagree here, they're more aesthetic but not more intuitive or discoverable.
Compare tar with apple's camera app on the iphone for example: tar --help will tell you how to do everything in the app. Is there something equivalent that tells how to do manual focus in the camera app? (yes, it's supported that for years and no one knows how to do it because it won't tell you.)
Of all the examples you could have chosen you picked tar? The program with such an obtuse command interface it has its own xkcd comic?
This is ok. I don’t know why everyone should only use one OS for everything. Or one language, or one text editor. It has never been easier to use multiples, in parallel.
I personally use Linux and iOS. My main pain point isn’t Linux but apple lacking proper API to access iCloud services from Linux, or anything than Apple OSes really. I try not to spend too much time "expecting".
I personally use Linux and iOS. My main pain point isn’t Linux but apple lacking proper API to access iCloud services from Linux, or anything than Apple OSes really. I try not to spend too much time "expecting".
My guess would be our tribalistic predispostions.
...or just run WSL2, which is absolutely amazing.
Shared filesystem performance on WSL2 is anything but amazing and pretty much everything I want it for depends heavily on the filesystem.
Native I/O performance is good but without shared files, WSL2 doesn't have any benefits over a VM.
Native I/O performance is good but without shared files, WSL2 doesn't have any benefits over a VM.
WSL2 has lots of benefits over a typical VM. It's a lot faster than your average type 2 VM (e.g. VirtualBox), it cold boots quickly, and you can run servers on localhost out of the box and access them through a regular Windows browser. I enjoy using it for Jupyter notebooks.
Plus WSL2 has way better tooling integration than most VMs - Windows Terminal, VSCode, etc. work well. I've found the experience compelling enough that I don't see much reason to dual boot Linux outside of CUDA applications (which are also supported now on Insiders.)
Plus WSL2 has way better tooling integration than most VMs - Windows Terminal, VSCode, etc. work well. I've found the experience compelling enough that I don't see much reason to dual boot Linux outside of CUDA applications (which are also supported now on Insiders.)
Linux got virtio-fs[1] capabilities as of Linux 5.4, and a driver for Windows guests was released recently. Along with VFIO passthrough, you can have accelerated and nearly native speed Windows guests on Linux if WSL2 isn't working out.
[1] https://virtio-fs.gitlab.io/
[1] https://virtio-fs.gitlab.io/
When was the last time you gave it a serious try? I've been Linux only for several years now and things have stabilized a lot in past years.
Ubuntu's kind of lost its way recently though (snaps/apt mess, went a tad bit early with pushing Wayland as default). The derivatives like Mint, Manjaro, PopOS and Zorin seem to be the way to go for the average user.
The one thing that might trip you up is (these days rare) hardware incompatibilities. Dell and Lenovo (the only personal experience I have) are great when it comes to laptops. For integrated GPU, Intel Just Works; nVidia and AMD can occasionally require a bit of hassle depending on chipset and kernel. Discrete GPUs I don't have any recent experience but the word on the street seems to be that if you're fine with proprietary drivers both nVidia and AMD/ATI works flawlessly while FOSS drivers can be hit or miss.
Ubuntu's kind of lost its way recently though (snaps/apt mess, went a tad bit early with pushing Wayland as default). The derivatives like Mint, Manjaro, PopOS and Zorin seem to be the way to go for the average user.
The one thing that might trip you up is (these days rare) hardware incompatibilities. Dell and Lenovo (the only personal experience I have) are great when it comes to laptops. For integrated GPU, Intel Just Works; nVidia and AMD can occasionally require a bit of hassle depending on chipset and kernel. Discrete GPUs I don't have any recent experience but the word on the street seems to be that if you're fine with proprietary drivers both nVidia and AMD/ATI works flawlessly while FOSS drivers can be hit or miss.
On the discrete GPU front, most AMD users will be using FOSS drivers that are built into the kernel, plus the standard open source Mesa.
In fact, AMD actively recommend you use the open source ones. I think the community radv vulkan driver also outperforms anything proprietary they offer.
Nvidia still requires proprietary out-of-tree drivers and causes breakage every so often, but AMD is just like Intel integrated graphics now. Never tried it with an AMD APU, but I would hope it would be the same with the open source amdgpu driver.
In fact, AMD actively recommend you use the open source ones. I think the community radv vulkan driver also outperforms anything proprietary they offer.
Nvidia still requires proprietary out-of-tree drivers and causes breakage every so often, but AMD is just like Intel integrated graphics now. Never tried it with an AMD APU, but I would hope it would be the same with the open source amdgpu driver.
> Never tried it with an AMD APU, but I would hope it would be the same with the open source amdgpu driver.
It is a big regression that won't ever be fixed, OpenGL 3.3 instead of OpenGL 4.1 and barely working hardware video decoding.
Yep, it is a 10 years old hardware, yet Windows 10 drivers are perfectly capable of handling it properly.
It is a big regression that won't ever be fixed, OpenGL 3.3 instead of OpenGL 4.1 and barely working hardware video decoding.
Yep, it is a 10 years old hardware, yet Windows 10 drivers are perfectly capable of handling it properly.
I did have some issues with getting proper utilization of a 3000-series APU on Debian stable. Eventually got it working but it did requires mesa > 20.1 and some specific version/params in kernel (can't recall exactly what did it).
If you use Debian Stable, set the backports repo as 9999 priority and then upgrade everything.
If you try anything remotely exotic, it's a no go on Linux.
E.g. I remember nVidia drivers always being crap. Even the blob ones.
Latest example for me is Swiftpoint Z mouse. Doesn't work on Linux.
From what I understand, either drivers are in the Kernel and thus open source. Or the drivers are outside of Kernel and thus break on every kernel update.
E.g. I remember nVidia drivers always being crap. Even the blob ones.
Latest example for me is Swiftpoint Z mouse. Doesn't work on Linux.
From what I understand, either drivers are in the Kernel and thus open source. Or the drivers are outside of Kernel and thus break on every kernel update.
I assume the nVidia experience is not recent? They’ve ramped up Linux efforts significantly. Even if despite officially embracing nouveau they’re still a bit toxic, in practice it should be expected to work fine (though see below, and apparently there were some issues with 5.9 specifically).
As for Kickstarter projects with proprietary drivers targeting only Windows and/or OS X, well, yeah...
You’re right that with proprietary closed-sourced drivers one has to be prepared to be a bit cautious or conservative when upgrading the kernel. Though unlike Windows there’s no real reason to always be on the most recent version (critical kernel security issues are rare).
Running a 4.x kernel is still considered bueno.
As for Kickstarter projects with proprietary drivers targeting only Windows and/or OS X, well, yeah...
You’re right that with proprietary closed-sourced drivers one has to be prepared to be a bit cautious or conservative when upgrading the kernel. Though unlike Windows there’s no real reason to always be on the most recent version (critical kernel security issues are rare).
Running a 4.x kernel is still considered bueno.
Admittedly not. But I still hear lots of horror stories about nVidia drivers.
"poor driver support"
Please expand on this gem. Bear in mind that all drivers in Linux are delivered by the kernel. I'll grant you that not everything is golden in Linux land but the sheer pain of finding and updating drivers in Windows is an order of magnitude worse than in Linux.
You get them out of the box in Linux, in Windows you don't.
What sort of Window Manager are you having problems with? Why not try another one?
Please expand on this gem. Bear in mind that all drivers in Linux are delivered by the kernel. I'll grant you that not everything is golden in Linux land but the sheer pain of finding and updating drivers in Windows is an order of magnitude worse than in Linux.
You get them out of the box in Linux, in Windows you don't.
What sort of Window Manager are you having problems with? Why not try another one?
>As your average user, I find the user interface on windows nicer
Yes, especially the ads, they're so colorful and shiny !
/s>
Yes, especially the ads, they're so colorful and shiny !
/s>
which ads?
I do ask seriously - I'm using Win Pro and I'm not sure what you're talking about
recommendations of installing Microsoft Chrome?
I do ask seriously - I'm using Win Pro and I'm not sure what you're talking about
recommendations of installing Microsoft Chrome?
The same ads in search that were present on Ubuntu way before Windows ...
it is not the same thing to see ads while already paying for the OS.
You are definitely not a sample size of 1.
Back when I was using linux 2010s or so, it had serious issues with drivers and overheating. Config files would break unexpectedly and I found myself spending a lot of time in IRC channels trying to fix stuff.
At uni they were pushing us to use Linux and I think that made a lot of sense. People would learn bash effectively and learn some lower level bare stuff as well.
A lot of time "linux is free if your time has no value" made a lot of sense.
Nowadays, I hear some good news about Linux though I would never switch to it as a main OS.
Back when I was using linux 2010s or so, it had serious issues with drivers and overheating. Config files would break unexpectedly and I found myself spending a lot of time in IRC channels trying to fix stuff.
At uni they were pushing us to use Linux and I think that made a lot of sense. People would learn bash effectively and learn some lower level bare stuff as well.
A lot of time "linux is free if your time has no value" made a lot of sense.
Nowadays, I hear some good news about Linux though I would never switch to it as a main OS.
Yup, exactly my experience. Linux kernel is less equipped.
> As a programmer
> dropping to command line for configuring my system
Doesn't add up. You're a programmer, write a script if it bothers you?
> I find the user interface on windows nicer
Seriously though, expand on this. Interested in what you are comparing it to; Gnome, KDE, etc.
> dropping to command line for configuring my system
Doesn't add up. You're a programmer, write a script if it bothers you?
> I find the user interface on windows nicer
Seriously though, expand on this. Interested in what you are comparing it to; Gnome, KDE, etc.
> Doesn't add up. You're a programmer, write a script if it bothers you?
It does add up. "I'm a programmer" doesn't mean "I want to program every little thing in my life". I want to be not a programmer for a significant portion of my life.
You don't expect a surgeon to perform surgeries all the time, do you?
It does add up. "I'm a programmer" doesn't mean "I want to program every little thing in my life". I want to be not a programmer for a significant portion of my life.
You don't expect a surgeon to perform surgeries all the time, do you?
No but it's a lot like saying "I'm a mechanic but it's too much of a burden for me to change my own oil or tires." I probably wouldn't use your services.
"I'm a surgeon, but it's too much of a burden for me to perform surgery on myself". I probably wouldn't use your services.
See how stupid it sounds?
See how stupid it sounds?
It sounds stupid because that analogy doesn’t work. A surgeon can’t properly do most kinds of surgery on themselves, some are down right impossible. There’s nothing a mechanic can’t do to their car that they can’t do for their costumers.
Linux runs better on both new and older hardware. Better as in programs open faster, the file manager opens faster, the task manager opens faster. Everything uses less memory and less CPU cycles. Everything is snappier.
Linux users don't have to worry nearly as much about malware, trojans, viruses, exploits. It's more secure.
Linux distros generally don't annoy users with stealthy automatic forced updates.
Linux distros have a better app store experience than Windows, plus most of whatever there is free without much if any risk.
Linux doesn't have any phone home telemetry type "features" built into the OS.
Linux user experience is much more customizable. There are a much greater variety of tools at your disposal to customize how you want your desktop to look and operate.
Linux is free.
Linux users don't have to worry nearly as much about malware, trojans, viruses, exploits. It's more secure.
Linux distros generally don't annoy users with stealthy automatic forced updates.
Linux distros have a better app store experience than Windows, plus most of whatever there is free without much if any risk.
Linux doesn't have any phone home telemetry type "features" built into the OS.
Linux user experience is much more customizable. There are a much greater variety of tools at your disposal to customize how you want your desktop to look and operate.
Linux is free.
> Linux runs better on both new and older hardware.
This is very much debatable. What's true however is that if your HW is not supported by at least Windows 8.1 you're SoL.
> Better as in programs open faster, the file manager opens faster, the task manager opens faster. Everything uses less memory and less CPU cycles. Everything is snappier.
I haven't observed any slow downs in Windows 10 for ages. As for "less memory and CPU cycles" it's just outright false. Windows offers much better hardware acceleration for everything: display rendering, video encoding and decoding, RDP (VNC in X11/Wayland taxes the CPU quite a lot and forget about effectively streaming video via VNC), etc. Linux is quite horrible in this regard.
> Linux users don't have to worry nearly as much about malware, trojans, viruses, exploits. It's more secure.
Unless you're obsessed with downloading software illegally, it's not an issue in Windows either. I don't remember the last time I had to deal with malware for my +20 of friends using it.
> Linux distros generally don't annoy users with stealthy automatic forced updates.
Windows updates are very much in your face.
> Linux distros have a better app store experience than Windows, plus most of whatever there is free without much if any risk.
Except there's 100 times more software in Windows.
> Linux doesn't have any phone home telemetry type "features" built into the OS.
No one has ever proven Microsoft accesses or downloads any of your files, or uses telemetry data to find out what applications you're running.
> Linux user experience is much more customizable. There are a much greater variety of tools at your disposal to customize how you want your desktop to look and operate.
This one is true however with a lot of choice comes a lot of confusion and doubt.
> Linux is free.
Windows 10 OEM license can be bought for as little as $10. This is 100% irrelevant nowadays.
This is very much debatable. What's true however is that if your HW is not supported by at least Windows 8.1 you're SoL.
> Better as in programs open faster, the file manager opens faster, the task manager opens faster. Everything uses less memory and less CPU cycles. Everything is snappier.
I haven't observed any slow downs in Windows 10 for ages. As for "less memory and CPU cycles" it's just outright false. Windows offers much better hardware acceleration for everything: display rendering, video encoding and decoding, RDP (VNC in X11/Wayland taxes the CPU quite a lot and forget about effectively streaming video via VNC), etc. Linux is quite horrible in this regard.
> Linux users don't have to worry nearly as much about malware, trojans, viruses, exploits. It's more secure.
Unless you're obsessed with downloading software illegally, it's not an issue in Windows either. I don't remember the last time I had to deal with malware for my +20 of friends using it.
> Linux distros generally don't annoy users with stealthy automatic forced updates.
Windows updates are very much in your face.
> Linux distros have a better app store experience than Windows, plus most of whatever there is free without much if any risk.
Except there's 100 times more software in Windows.
> Linux doesn't have any phone home telemetry type "features" built into the OS.
No one has ever proven Microsoft accesses or downloads any of your files, or uses telemetry data to find out what applications you're running.
> Linux user experience is much more customizable. There are a much greater variety of tools at your disposal to customize how you want your desktop to look and operate.
This one is true however with a lot of choice comes a lot of confusion and doubt.
> Linux is free.
Windows 10 OEM license can be bought for as little as $10. This is 100% irrelevant nowadays.
> Windows 10 OEM license can be bought for as little as $10. This is 100% irrelevant nowadays.
Really? Where? When asking Microsoft about it, they say No.
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/where-...
Really? Where? When asking Microsoft about it, they say No.
https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/where-...
≥ Except there's 100 times more software in Windows
Really? I bet dockerhub alone has more linux-capable software than windows has anywhere. I also expect that a randomly chosen GitHub repo is more likely to support Linux than it is to support Windows.
Maybe these aren't fair comparisons, but I'm not sure what would be. The ecosystems are so different it's hard to know how such a count would go.
Really? I bet dockerhub alone has more linux-capable software than windows has anywhere. I also expect that a randomly chosen GitHub repo is more likely to support Linux than it is to support Windows.
Maybe these aren't fair comparisons, but I'm not sure what would be. The ecosystems are so different it's hard to know how such a count would go.
Dockerhub is a drop in an ocean, no central repository can hold windows software, it's that big.
> I bet dockerhub alone has more linux-capable software than windows has anywhere. I also expect that a randomly chosen GitHub repo
You are confusing a subset "developers who use linux-compatible tools" with the set "users".
You are confusing a subset "developers who use linux-compatible tools" with the set "users".
Is the userbase size relevant?
I'm not saying "I have more tools than you have cars" because I think it makes me win at something. I'm trying to point out that the ecosystems are so different that it's hard to quantify which side has "more".
I'm not saying "I have more tools than you have cars" because I think it makes me win at something. I'm trying to point out that the ecosystems are so different that it's hard to quantify which side has "more".
> Is the userbase size relevant?
Yes
> I'm trying to point out that the ecosystems are so different that it's hard to quantify which side has "more".
No. In response to "there's 100 times more software in Windows." you started speaking about dockerhub and git. That does not encompass all software, especially software that is required by non-programmers.
Yes
> I'm trying to point out that the ecosystems are so different that it's hard to quantify which side has "more".
No. In response to "there's 100 times more software in Windows." you started speaking about dockerhub and git. That does not encompass all software, especially software that is required by non-programmers.
Let L be the set of all software for Linux and W be the set of all software for Windows.
If there is a subset of L that is larger than W, then L itself is also larger than W.
I was proposing that if you count every image, or every repo, then dockerhub-only or the GitHub-only subsets of L might be larger than W because the effort of creating an additional windows project is much greater than the effort of creating an additional Linux project.
If there is a subset of L that is larger than W, then L itself is also larger than W.
I was proposing that if you count every image, or every repo, then dockerhub-only or the GitHub-only subsets of L might be larger than W because the effort of creating an additional windows project is much greater than the effort of creating an additional Linux project.
The amount of software in dockerhub and github is entirely irrelevant when you just for a second stop considering just the subset "developers who use linux-compatible tools".
You can't buy/use an OEM license for windows on a box you build yourself can you? The last windows machine I put together, I paid > $100 for Windows itself.
Many PC builders just don't activate Windows at all—other than a few occasional nags, Microsoft doesn't really enforce Windows activation anymore. It's just like how Apple doesn't crack down on Hackintoshing. Both the build-your-own PC market and the Hackintosh market are small enough that it's not worth the time.
Plus, Microsoft is better off having the few prospective Linux-users to have experience tinkering with Windows rather than Linux, even if they don't pay for Windows directly either way. It means they're more likely to be happy using Windows for business IT infrastructure, which is where Microsoft makes its real money.
> Microsoft doesn't really enforce Windows activation anymore
Except an unactivated Windows, once past its trial window, will shut down after an hour of use, without warning. That's very annoying.
MS absolutely does enforce activation. They likely won't come after you for using cracks (unless you have hundreds of corporate machines using them), but they will make your life awkward remotely, as they are entitled to by the EULA.
Except an unactivated Windows, once past its trial window, will shut down after an hour of use, without warning. That's very annoying.
MS absolutely does enforce activation. They likely won't come after you for using cracks (unless you have hundreds of corporate machines using them), but they will make your life awkward remotely, as they are entitled to by the EULA.
This has not been true for some time. You can continue to use un-activated Win10 installs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Product_Activation#A...
You just can't change the wallpaper away from black, and there is a notice displayed on it.
You just can't change the wallpaper away from black, and there is a notice displayed on it.
You can change the wallpaper by right-clicking on an image file, just not through the personalization preferences.
> Except an unactivated Windows, once past its trial window, will shut down after an hour of use, without warning.
This is no longer the case.
You can use OEM licenses on Windows boxes you build yourself. The main difference with an OEM license and a retail license is that OEM licenses do not come with as much support. The idea is the system builder is supposed to provide the first level of support, while retail licenses are supported by Microsoft directly.
Except that's a breach of the EULA and therefore comparable to piracy.
I don't see where its a breach in the EULA to have the end user also be the manufacturer/builder of the system. Can you point out where its a breach?
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/OEM/Windows/10/UseT...
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/OEM/Windows/10/UseT...
My brother built a PC and bought a Windows 10 key for $10 online and it worked fine.
People actually pay for Windows on desktops? That still surprises me. I know of course you do pay when buying a laptop, but Windows is basically free, there's a trial and you can just use an activator, or buy an OEM key for 10 bucks as the parent states.
Parent author reporting back. I am going to have to sort of disagree with you there (in Lumbergh voice).
In all seriousness though, you are wrong on all points. Sorry, yes you are wrong. Rather than write a point by point rebuttal, against my common sense (you know, the thing about arguing with someone one the Internet) I'll just write a few paragraphs, provide some professional anecdotal and maybe quantitative evidence, and allow others to decide what's reasonable.
I build laptops and desktops for students of whom I teach programming and electronics. I build both new and used systems, and I loan and sell a lot of computers. Students get the loaners, buyers fund profits to buy more students computers. That said I experience a wide variety of actual system performance information across a large spectrum of computers.
Linux installs faster than Windows by a lot. When booting it's my experience that Linux can open a task manager (sometimes called system monitor on Linux) quicker than on a Windows system, the same goes for the file manager (explore on Windows). Across the board most programs open faster on Linux. You can disbelieve all you want, but that's just an objective reality.
https://i.imgur.com/UxR30xG.png
Regarding less CPU cycles, yes again it 's true, Linux uses less. Linux has far fewer background services and other tasks running in the background doing a bunch of unnecessary stuff.
https://www.pcerror-fix.com/windows-10-services-to-disable-f...
It's not just the services though. Windows is constantly scanning files for viruses or other malware, it's recording your activity, it's indexing the content of your computer as files are written or change. All this causes guess what? More CPU cycles and more memory being consumed. You may now go back and check my second point.
Moving on, you are wrong again on point number three. You don't need to download illegal Windows software to get malware. You can get it attached as an add on to free legal Windows programs.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/oracle-extends-its-adware-bund... https://www.information-age.com/hotbed-malware-another-blow-...
Next, Windows updates are notorious for downloading updates in the background without your knowledge or consent. There are well known stories of people who were working on an important task on their Windows computer, who got up for a break and came back to see updates being applied from an automatic reboot causing their work to be forever lost.
https://www.howtogeek.com/224471/how-to-prevent-windows-10-f... https://www.constellationsolutions.com/informational/tired-o...
Without a doubt Windows has more software, but I said the Linux app store experience is better than Windows. On Linux distributions have app stores that come from a curated list, and those apps are built from source by the distribution maintainer. They are verified to some degree and use the same installation methodology. On Windows this is not the case, a lot of software installs automatically without user consent. I keep getting Espon software each time I install Windows on a new computer attached to my network, gleefully telling me I need to buy ink from Epson. Additionally, Windows software often contains other adware or malware even if it comes from a Windows store. The software management side of things on Windows is a big stinking mess, which was the point I made, but yeah feel free miss that point to morph it into "Windows has more software".
When I said telemetry, that means collecting you data. You're not only being disingenuous in asserting that means downloading your personal files, you're also asking someone to prove a negative.
Regarding customization, on my distribution of choice it's very easy to change the icon or control theme, add extensions, and change those settings. There are prebuilt themes you can preview and click on to make a bunch of changes all at once, or you can click the original prebuilt to restore to the default settings.
You say the price of Linux versus Windows is 100% irrelevant nowadays. As a system builder I don't follow. Does Windows cost a system builder money or not? If it does, then it's not irrelevant.
In all seriousness though, you are wrong on all points. Sorry, yes you are wrong. Rather than write a point by point rebuttal, against my common sense (you know, the thing about arguing with someone one the Internet) I'll just write a few paragraphs, provide some professional anecdotal and maybe quantitative evidence, and allow others to decide what's reasonable.
I build laptops and desktops for students of whom I teach programming and electronics. I build both new and used systems, and I loan and sell a lot of computers. Students get the loaners, buyers fund profits to buy more students computers. That said I experience a wide variety of actual system performance information across a large spectrum of computers.
Linux installs faster than Windows by a lot. When booting it's my experience that Linux can open a task manager (sometimes called system monitor on Linux) quicker than on a Windows system, the same goes for the file manager (explore on Windows). Across the board most programs open faster on Linux. You can disbelieve all you want, but that's just an objective reality.
https://i.imgur.com/UxR30xG.png
Regarding less CPU cycles, yes again it 's true, Linux uses less. Linux has far fewer background services and other tasks running in the background doing a bunch of unnecessary stuff.
https://www.pcerror-fix.com/windows-10-services-to-disable-f...
It's not just the services though. Windows is constantly scanning files for viruses or other malware, it's recording your activity, it's indexing the content of your computer as files are written or change. All this causes guess what? More CPU cycles and more memory being consumed. You may now go back and check my second point.
Moving on, you are wrong again on point number three. You don't need to download illegal Windows software to get malware. You can get it attached as an add on to free legal Windows programs.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/oracle-extends-its-adware-bund... https://www.information-age.com/hotbed-malware-another-blow-...
Next, Windows updates are notorious for downloading updates in the background without your knowledge or consent. There are well known stories of people who were working on an important task on their Windows computer, who got up for a break and came back to see updates being applied from an automatic reboot causing their work to be forever lost.
https://www.howtogeek.com/224471/how-to-prevent-windows-10-f... https://www.constellationsolutions.com/informational/tired-o...
Without a doubt Windows has more software, but I said the Linux app store experience is better than Windows. On Linux distributions have app stores that come from a curated list, and those apps are built from source by the distribution maintainer. They are verified to some degree and use the same installation methodology. On Windows this is not the case, a lot of software installs automatically without user consent. I keep getting Espon software each time I install Windows on a new computer attached to my network, gleefully telling me I need to buy ink from Epson. Additionally, Windows software often contains other adware or malware even if it comes from a Windows store. The software management side of things on Windows is a big stinking mess, which was the point I made, but yeah feel free miss that point to morph it into "Windows has more software".
When I said telemetry, that means collecting you data. You're not only being disingenuous in asserting that means downloading your personal files, you're also asking someone to prove a negative.
Regarding customization, on my distribution of choice it's very easy to change the icon or control theme, add extensions, and change those settings. There are prebuilt themes you can preview and click on to make a bunch of changes all at once, or you can click the original prebuilt to restore to the default settings.
You say the price of Linux versus Windows is 100% irrelevant nowadays. As a system builder I don't follow. Does Windows cost a system builder money or not? If it does, then it's not irrelevant.
I find this an extremely weird set of argument.
Opening the task manager or explorer takes less time than I can measure on both Windows and Linux... what kind of metric is this?
As for background services, of course they spend (at that moment unused resources). But you completely forego that they have an actual usefulness. Indexing files makes searching later faster. Prefetching makes loading commonly used programs faster. Virus scanning keeps your computer safe. Telemetry helps developers recognize issues and prioritize bugs, even stop hackers in time. The article you mentioned wants you to disable the firewall (bad advice) but also a lot of services that are not even consuming resources unless you have the necessary policies/hardware, like the bluetooth service or touch screen service.
Not that Windows these days runs from high-end server to low powered ARM devices, while still looking generally the same. This is not the same Windows from 20 years ago where you could easily tweak the system to get some more performance out of it. These days Windows comes out of the box running as fast as it can, while giving a reasonable user experience.
As for software, on Windows you're free to install all the software you want (just as on Linux), some software is not so nice, just as on Linux. I find it hard to blame Windows itself for that. Microsoft does not curate all the software you can install it, and a user is free to install what they want. The only OSes where this is really different are mobile OSes.
Opening the task manager or explorer takes less time than I can measure on both Windows and Linux... what kind of metric is this?
As for background services, of course they spend (at that moment unused resources). But you completely forego that they have an actual usefulness. Indexing files makes searching later faster. Prefetching makes loading commonly used programs faster. Virus scanning keeps your computer safe. Telemetry helps developers recognize issues and prioritize bugs, even stop hackers in time. The article you mentioned wants you to disable the firewall (bad advice) but also a lot of services that are not even consuming resources unless you have the necessary policies/hardware, like the bluetooth service or touch screen service.
Not that Windows these days runs from high-end server to low powered ARM devices, while still looking generally the same. This is not the same Windows from 20 years ago where you could easily tweak the system to get some more performance out of it. These days Windows comes out of the box running as fast as it can, while giving a reasonable user experience.
As for software, on Windows you're free to install all the software you want (just as on Linux), some software is not so nice, just as on Linux. I find it hard to blame Windows itself for that. Microsoft does not curate all the software you can install it, and a user is free to install what they want. The only OSes where this is really different are mobile OSes.
Opening software takes a lot of time on Windows. It's mainly due to the antivirus. I recently tested it myself; I forget the numbers but basically having Microsoft's AV enabled adds a good fraction of a second, or maybe more, to every program launch.
> Indexing files makes searching later faster.
It's been my experience that Windows search is anything but fast. On Linux on the other hand, the speed of find(1) was never an issue. There is really nothing to speed up (and in so doing increase median load).
It's been my experience that Windows search is anything but fast. On Linux on the other hand, the speed of find(1) was never an issue. There is really nothing to speed up (and in so doing increase median load).
>Opening the task manager or explorer takes less time than I can measure on both Windows and Linux... what kind of metric is this?
I feel like a lot of people here are devs running reasonably modern computers but as someone running dualboots at home (manjaro KDE) and at work from time to time dealing with the kind of desktops most people use in their day to day life.... (As in they're not actually that old but weren't top of the line when bought either) ....this is actually one of my biggest gripes with it.
Windows really is slow as fuck. Sometimes it's really noticeable on the somewhat older hardware but on the other stuff it doesn't really annoy you until you compare because we're talking very short delays, little bits of lags....the thing is...It's there for just about everything. There's not a whole lot that feels instantaneous which makes it all perfectly usable but feel off at the same time.
I didn't even think about it till I switched to Linux at home and noticed just how snappy stuff feels. MacOS has felt similarly snappy the few times i've used it but I don't use it enough to really comment.
>As for software, on Windows you're free to install all the software you want (just as on Linux), some software is not so nice, just as on Linux. I find it hard to blame Windows itself for that. Microsoft does not curate all the software you can install it, and a user is free to install what they want. The only OSes where this is really different are mobile OSes.
Tbh I thought similar (and mostly it'll still be true) until I tried to use a playstation 3 controller (a very common item at least at the time) for a windows only game. It worked out of the box on Linux and I believe an xbox controller would have worked like that and on windows as well but to get the ps3 one I had working on windows i had to jump trough hoops, change some stuff so i could then disable driver signature enforcement and tweak a few other things only to give up in the end when it still didn't work after I had managed. Even if it worked it wouldn't work every time because the ways of getting around permanently disabling signed drivers constantly keep being patched by Windows.
I feel like a lot of people here are devs running reasonably modern computers but as someone running dualboots at home (manjaro KDE) and at work from time to time dealing with the kind of desktops most people use in their day to day life.... (As in they're not actually that old but weren't top of the line when bought either) ....this is actually one of my biggest gripes with it.
Windows really is slow as fuck. Sometimes it's really noticeable on the somewhat older hardware but on the other stuff it doesn't really annoy you until you compare because we're talking very short delays, little bits of lags....the thing is...It's there for just about everything. There's not a whole lot that feels instantaneous which makes it all perfectly usable but feel off at the same time.
I didn't even think about it till I switched to Linux at home and noticed just how snappy stuff feels. MacOS has felt similarly snappy the few times i've used it but I don't use it enough to really comment.
>As for software, on Windows you're free to install all the software you want (just as on Linux), some software is not so nice, just as on Linux. I find it hard to blame Windows itself for that. Microsoft does not curate all the software you can install it, and a user is free to install what they want. The only OSes where this is really different are mobile OSes.
Tbh I thought similar (and mostly it'll still be true) until I tried to use a playstation 3 controller (a very common item at least at the time) for a windows only game. It worked out of the box on Linux and I believe an xbox controller would have worked like that and on windows as well but to get the ps3 one I had working on windows i had to jump trough hoops, change some stuff so i could then disable driver signature enforcement and tweak a few other things only to give up in the end when it still didn't work after I had managed. Even if it worked it wouldn't work every time because the ways of getting around permanently disabling signed drivers constantly keep being patched by Windows.
The slowness is something I particularly notice with python. I'm a linux user, but many of my students work on windows. Every time they show me something on linux and import numpy or scipy it takes like 10s for the import. While on my linux system it's typically instantaneous. Can anyone elaborate on where this is coming from?
You have the patient of a saint, the person you are responding too is at best an amateur "Microsoft Evangelist"
While I agree with all of these 100%, I'm a UI/UX designer, so Adobe continues to hold me hostage to my Apple and MS boxes.
Some of the Linux alternatives are good, but they still aren't as good as Adobe. I still do quite a bit of JS development and some app development on my older Linux rig, but I just wish at some point Adobe will pull their heads out and support Linux. I remember in several threads on the Adobe forums, the attitude towards Linux users was pretty offensive. Their argument was all the Linux users would want Adobe products to be free and open source and its not something they could do and still support all the Apple and MS people "who actually pay for their products".
It pissed me off enough where I did give it a full go on Linux with Gimp Shop and some other alternative open source alternatives, but it just wasn't the same - which really bummed me out.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that Adobe's Creative Cloud app is a total resource hog as well. Not to mention any of their programs you run will quickly eat up to a gig or more of your resources.
Some of the Linux alternatives are good, but they still aren't as good as Adobe. I still do quite a bit of JS development and some app development on my older Linux rig, but I just wish at some point Adobe will pull their heads out and support Linux. I remember in several threads on the Adobe forums, the attitude towards Linux users was pretty offensive. Their argument was all the Linux users would want Adobe products to be free and open source and its not something they could do and still support all the Apple and MS people "who actually pay for their products".
It pissed me off enough where I did give it a full go on Linux with Gimp Shop and some other alternative open source alternatives, but it just wasn't the same - which really bummed me out.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that Adobe's Creative Cloud app is a total resource hog as well. Not to mention any of their programs you run will quickly eat up to a gig or more of your resources.
> It pissed me off enough where I did give it a full go on Linux with Gimp Shop and some other alternative open source alternatives, but it just wasn't the same - which really bummed me out.
Is Gimp Shop still a thing?
Wikipedia says the stable release is from 2006.
Going to https://www.gimpshop.com/ leads you to the official gimp site when you try to download it.
It kind of looks like maybe it's a marketing site for gimp now?
I was one of those people who moved from Photoshop to gimp and for the longest time I thought gimp was really bad but after customizing a few hotkeys and setting up some pre-made scripts and brushes it's pretty decent. At least for casually making YouTube thumbnails and things like that.
Some design decisions still leave me baffled tho, like not having a default bind to merge a layer down or not being able to easily center things relative to objects in an intuitive and graphical way (ie. dragging something until it snaps in place while seeing some temporary guide lines overlay near where it's snapped and some basic pixel measurements near it).
Is Gimp Shop still a thing?
Wikipedia says the stable release is from 2006.
Going to https://www.gimpshop.com/ leads you to the official gimp site when you try to download it.
It kind of looks like maybe it's a marketing site for gimp now?
I was one of those people who moved from Photoshop to gimp and for the longest time I thought gimp was really bad but after customizing a few hotkeys and setting up some pre-made scripts and brushes it's pretty decent. At least for casually making YouTube thumbnails and things like that.
Some design decisions still leave me baffled tho, like not having a default bind to merge a layer down or not being able to easily center things relative to objects in an intuitive and graphical way (ie. dragging something until it snaps in place while seeing some temporary guide lines overlay near where it's snapped and some basic pixel measurements near it).
Quoting the author (Wikipedia):
I originally created Gimpshop, but I'm not the jerk who owns that domain and added adware & spyware to the source. Sorry about that. I hate that this guy is out there making my fun little project into an abomination.
….
I don't have a project site for it. I became discouraged after this whole ordeal and I let it slip away into obscurity. …. Gimpshop was a fun little 'prank' that got bigger than I ever expected. Sad what it has become, though.
I originally created Gimpshop, but I'm not the jerk who owns that domain and added adware & spyware to the source. Sorry about that. I hate that this guy is out there making my fun little project into an abomination.
….
I don't have a project site for it. I became discouraged after this whole ordeal and I let it slip away into obscurity. …. Gimpshop was a fun little 'prank' that got bigger than I ever expected. Sad what it has become, though.
i was tethered to a windows box for photoshop and then i discovered Krita. it is such a joy! the UX is very thoughtful (unlike my experience with gimp which i could just never get used to). its also very powerful with GMIC (you get content aware fills and other things that used to set Adobe apart. not anymore!)
I only have linux machines, but jesus christ, gimp is a piece of work. Especially for people who appreciate good UX, its pure torture.
That said, Krita is incredibly comfortable to use, Inkscape replaced Illustrator for anything I care about.
That said, Krita is incredibly comfortable to use, Inkscape replaced Illustrator for anything I care about.
1. Swap thrashing can bring the system into a completely unresponsive state.
2. Linux servers are targeted and breached. Linux desktop share is too small to be worth it (yet).
3. Windows updates aren't stealthy for a considerable time.
4. That's a matter of opinion.
5. Some distros do, but it's opt-in. Transparency is better on the Linux side too. I agree on this point.
6. You are tempted to spend time on customization with unclear objective benefits.
7. Developers don't owe you anything.
2. Linux servers are targeted and breached. Linux desktop share is too small to be worth it (yet).
3. Windows updates aren't stealthy for a considerable time.
4. That's a matter of opinion.
5. Some distros do, but it's opt-in. Transparency is better on the Linux side too. I agree on this point.
6. You are tempted to spend time on customization with unclear objective benefits.
7. Developers don't owe you anything.
>1. Swap thrashing can bring the system into a completely unresponsive state.
This can be prevented using earlyoom (which is packaged in most distros):
https://github.com/rfjakob/earlyoom
It's probably too difficult to fix the underlying design errors, e.g. fork() duplicating the process's entire address space, thus requiring overcommit and copy-on-write, but losing only one process beats losing all of them. earlyoom should be enabled by default.
This can be prevented using earlyoom (which is packaged in most distros):
https://github.com/rfjakob/earlyoom
It's probably too difficult to fix the underlying design errors, e.g. fork() duplicating the process's entire address space, thus requiring overcommit and copy-on-write, but losing only one process beats losing all of them. earlyoom should be enabled by default.
Or simply disable swap if you have enough RAM. I've been running without swap since 2014 on a 16 GB laptop. I upgraded to 32 GB a couple of years later when I started to routinely use at least 12 GB. At least one browser and editor window per virtual desktop (one VD per customer plus a couple for me), docker, virtualbox, slack, thunderbird, etc.
Don't do this. Disabling swap is bad idea: https://chrisdown.name/2018/01/02/in-defence-of-swap.html
In practice the benefits of swap mentioned in that article almost never happen on desktop use. I used to use swap on my last install and it was pretty much never used. I don't bother with swap anymore. Server may be different game though.
Not really. While there are still problems without swap, all swap does is move that problem further away while slowing down some things in the meantime.
You can still have thrashing without a swap partition/file: as memory pressure increases, the kernel will flush disk cache and buffers, slowing down operations that need them again. In the extreme case this can mean the program code you are executing being evicted from ram only to be re-read page by page for many times until the kernel finally decides to kill whatever was eating all the ram.
> 2. Linux servers are targeted and breached. Linux desktop share is too small to be worth it (yet).
Why aren't we replacing them with something better then? Why are most servers still running GNU/Linux?
Why aren't we replacing them with something better then? Why are most servers still running GNU/Linux?
Linux as a server/headless OS has been fantastic for me. I have a home NAS running Linux that hasn't been rebooted in over a year and that was due to swapping out hard drives.
Linux as my desktop OS, not so much. I have to reboot my Linux laptop every few days for various reasons, including complete unresponsiveness to any keyboard input.
Linux as my desktop OS, not so much. I have to reboot my Linux laptop every few days for various reasons, including complete unresponsiveness to any keyboard input.
That's really weird. Which distro and hardware are you using? I can go months without rebooting. I mostly do so when Linux tells me it needs a reboot to apply some update.
Keep in mind I use my laptop for both coding and gaming (if it ever locks up it's because of a game -- which wasn't uncommon years ago when I used Windows, either).
Keep in mind I use my laptop for both coding and gaming (if it ever locks up it's because of a game -- which wasn't uncommon years ago when I used Windows, either).
Run a memtest86 and keep an eye on the temps during usage. This is not normal.
Are you running nvidia drivers?
Are you running nvidia drivers?
>Linux users don't have to worry nearly as much about malware, trojans, viruses, exploits. It's more secure.
In my opinion it's flawed logic _if_ you wanted to say that "Linux is more secure because windows has more malware"
>Linux user experience is much more customizable.
In what way? desktop? kernel tweaks?
In my opinion it's flawed logic _if_ you wanted to say that "Linux is more secure because windows has more malware"
>Linux user experience is much more customizable.
In what way? desktop? kernel tweaks?
> In what way? desktop? kernel tweaks?
How deep do you want the Rabbit hole to go Alice?
On one end you have Arch Linux:
Arch is largely based on binary packages. Packages target x86-64 microprocessors to assist performance on modern hardware. A ports/ebuild-like system is also provided for automated source compilation, known as the Arch Build System.[28]
Arch Linux focuses on simplicity of design, meaning that the main focus involves creating an environment that is straightforward and relatively easy for the user to understand directly, rather than providing polished point-and-click style management tools — the package manager, for example, does not have an official graphical front-end. This is largely achieved by encouraging the use of succinctly commented, clean configuration files that are arranged for quick access and editing.[29] This has earned it a reputation as a distribution for "advanced users" who are willing to use the command line.[30]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_Linux
And then on the other end you have Distro's like Mint, or Ubuntu:
Mint is designed for ease of use and a ready-to-roll out-of-box experience, including multimedia support on desktops. The operating system is easier to install than most Linux distributions. Mint includes software required for e-mail and online functionality as well as support for multimedia content, whether online or from a user's own files and physical media
There are several different desktop editions of Mint, including Cinnamon, GNOME, XFCE and KDE, to best support various hardware. The operating system is also provided in an alternate Linux Mint Debian Edition for those that are more familiar with Linux. That edition is said to be less intuitive and user-friendly but also faster and more responsive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Mint
I started with KDE, then went to Mint, Ubuntu, and some other distros like Manjaro that I've been tinkering with lately.
You can see a good list of all the distro's here (current and upcoming):
https://distrowatch.com/
How deep do you want the Rabbit hole to go Alice?
On one end you have Arch Linux:
Arch is largely based on binary packages. Packages target x86-64 microprocessors to assist performance on modern hardware. A ports/ebuild-like system is also provided for automated source compilation, known as the Arch Build System.[28]
Arch Linux focuses on simplicity of design, meaning that the main focus involves creating an environment that is straightforward and relatively easy for the user to understand directly, rather than providing polished point-and-click style management tools — the package manager, for example, does not have an official graphical front-end. This is largely achieved by encouraging the use of succinctly commented, clean configuration files that are arranged for quick access and editing.[29] This has earned it a reputation as a distribution for "advanced users" who are willing to use the command line.[30]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_Linux
And then on the other end you have Distro's like Mint, or Ubuntu:
Mint is designed for ease of use and a ready-to-roll out-of-box experience, including multimedia support on desktops. The operating system is easier to install than most Linux distributions. Mint includes software required for e-mail and online functionality as well as support for multimedia content, whether online or from a user's own files and physical media
There are several different desktop editions of Mint, including Cinnamon, GNOME, XFCE and KDE, to best support various hardware. The operating system is also provided in an alternate Linux Mint Debian Edition for those that are more familiar with Linux. That edition is said to be less intuitive and user-friendly but also faster and more responsive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Mint
I started with KDE, then went to Mint, Ubuntu, and some other distros like Manjaro that I've been tinkering with lately.
You can see a good list of all the distro's here (current and upcoming):
https://distrowatch.com/
Surely Arch is somewhere in the middle, with things like Gentoo, Nix, Guix, LFS (in increasing order of complexity, perhaps) &c. as the opposing end from Ubuntu/Mint.
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote.
But I still run Windows because the only really good video editor on Linux (Davinci Resolve) is really unstable there with the hardware I have, the USB audio interface I use has all sorts of issues on Linux and not all games run well on Linux.
Basically what it boils down to is I've been one of those folks who builds their computers from parts for 20+ years with the goal of using 1 computer for everything (dev, video editing, gaming, etc.). I'm afraid Linux isn't ready for such users yet if you don't want to dual boot or set up a Windows 10 guest VM with a GPU pass-through.
If I didn't care about gaming or video editing and only focused on pure software development I would switch in a heart beat.
But I still run Windows because the only really good video editor on Linux (Davinci Resolve) is really unstable there with the hardware I have, the USB audio interface I use has all sorts of issues on Linux and not all games run well on Linux.
Basically what it boils down to is I've been one of those folks who builds their computers from parts for 20+ years with the goal of using 1 computer for everything (dev, video editing, gaming, etc.). I'm afraid Linux isn't ready for such users yet if you don't want to dual boot or set up a Windows 10 guest VM with a GPU pass-through.
If I didn't care about gaming or video editing and only focused on pure software development I would switch in a heart beat.
Lightworks is also a really nice commercial editor that works on Linux. The free version supports 720p output. It is not as fully featured as Davinci Resolve, but then it also requires much more modest system resources.
Yep, I tried that one (along with pretty much every editor). None of them really meshed well with what I was used to doing with Camtasia (on Windows) or Resolve. They were all too limiting[0] in one way or another for the types of videos I create.
Resolve would be perfect if it worked with my set up. I hope one day it gets there.
[0]: I don't make cinema style movies. Mainly 1080p screencasts. So things like nice looking titles, simple animations, zooming / panning, adding overlays of various shapes and sizes, blurs, etc. are really important to me. Nothing I tried on Linux really comes close to how easy it is to do that stuff with Camtasia and make it look nice. Resolve is pretty close tho, after you put in enough time to build up your own custom libraries.
Resolve would be perfect if it worked with my set up. I hope one day it gets there.
[0]: I don't make cinema style movies. Mainly 1080p screencasts. So things like nice looking titles, simple animations, zooming / panning, adding overlays of various shapes and sizes, blurs, etc. are really important to me. Nothing I tried on Linux really comes close to how easy it is to do that stuff with Camtasia and make it look nice. Resolve is pretty close tho, after you put in enough time to build up your own custom libraries.
ReactOS or Qubes can solve this right now (at least the software running on it)
Which of his problems are you referring to that would work on ReactOS? The last build of ReactOS I tested could barely run the built-in explorer without screen artifacts and weirdness.
It is POSSIBLE to do a lot of things on Linux that you can do in Windows? Yes. The question is: how much time will it take you to make it work?
It is POSSIBLE to do a lot of things on Linux that you can do in Windows? Yes. The question is: how much time will it take you to make it work?
Get an audio interface from Native Instruments, they have official drivers in the Kernel.
Dell XPS 17 from 2020. Sound doesn’t work. Thee we drivers exist. For the first time in over a decade I had to install drivers manually.
And don’t even start with hibernate or even just waking up. I’ve never rebooted a laptop so many times.
And what’s the deal with flatpak? A screen shot app is not 700mb? WTF?
And don’t even start with hibernate or even just waking up. I’ve never rebooted a laptop so many times.
And what’s the deal with flatpak? A screen shot app is not 700mb? WTF?
It really surprises me since there's a developer edition coming natively with Ubuntu (it only exists for the XPS 13 though). Is the underlying hardware that different?
The Precision 7750 supports Linux and supposedly has the same sound system as the XPS 17. Both are 17” laptops and share similar chassis. Finger print reader isn’t well supported. No gestures.
20 years ago I was convinced Linux would win on the desktop. But we still have the same problems decades later.
20 years ago I was convinced Linux would win on the desktop. But we still have the same problems decades later.
The Asus EEE PC that I bought (1215B) also came with Linux, when I say support Linux OEMs I meant it, yet not everything worked as expected, e.g. wlan and hibernate were an adventure during the first years.
And then the whole story with AMD open source driver, means I am unable to take full advantage of the GPU in Linux.
And then the whole story with AMD open source driver, means I am unable to take full advantage of the GPU in Linux.
I have used Linux as the primary OS for over 15 years in the last 20 years and I am not sure I agree with all of that.
Linux runs better on both new and older hardware. Better as in programs open faster, the file manager opens faster, the task manager opens faster. Everything uses less memory and less CPU cycles. Everything is snappier.
Simply untrue. It could be true for some distros, some driver versions and some hardware... but if you consider everything, Windows runs better than Linux. Mostly because most hardware is designed to run well on Windows. The Linux versions are either an afterthought or built and maintained by third-party.
Linux distros generally don't annoy users with stealthy automatic forced updates.
Windows updates aren't stealthy and they can be disabled. If you really don't want an update, it is MUCH MORE straightforward to avoid installing the optional update in Windows than it is for Linux distros.
* Linux distros have a better app store experience than Windows, plus most of whatever there is free without much if any risk.
Which Linux distro has a better App Store than Windows? Since Microsoft launched the Windows App Store, it is the best App Store in any non-macOS computers.
Linux doesn't have any phone home telemetry type "features" built into the OS.
Some distros do. Ubuntu has it, for example.
Linux user experience is much more customizable. There are a much greater variety of tools at your disposal to customize how you want your desktop to look and operate.
This is true. However, this has been a problem, which is why something like Ubuntu which has good defaults which they stick to has been so much successful than anything else.
Linux is free.
Sure! Many things are. That's not always a good reason to use it.
Linux runs better on both new and older hardware. Better as in programs open faster, the file manager opens faster, the task manager opens faster. Everything uses less memory and less CPU cycles. Everything is snappier.
Simply untrue. It could be true for some distros, some driver versions and some hardware... but if you consider everything, Windows runs better than Linux. Mostly because most hardware is designed to run well on Windows. The Linux versions are either an afterthought or built and maintained by third-party.
Linux distros generally don't annoy users with stealthy automatic forced updates.
Windows updates aren't stealthy and they can be disabled. If you really don't want an update, it is MUCH MORE straightforward to avoid installing the optional update in Windows than it is for Linux distros.
* Linux distros have a better app store experience than Windows, plus most of whatever there is free without much if any risk.
Which Linux distro has a better App Store than Windows? Since Microsoft launched the Windows App Store, it is the best App Store in any non-macOS computers.
Linux doesn't have any phone home telemetry type "features" built into the OS.
Some distros do. Ubuntu has it, for example.
Linux user experience is much more customizable. There are a much greater variety of tools at your disposal to customize how you want your desktop to look and operate.
This is true. However, this has been a problem, which is why something like Ubuntu which has good defaults which they stick to has been so much successful than anything else.
Linux is free.
Sure! Many things are. That's not always a good reason to use it.
>Simply untrue. It could be true for some distros, some driver versions and some hardware... but if you consider everything, Windows runs better than Linux. Mostly because most hardware is designed to run well on Windows. The Linux versions are either an afterthought or built and maintained by third-party.
You mean drivers instead of hardware right? Typically performance is roughly the same. Sometimes better sometimes worse. The issue is where they don't exist or are an afterthought indeed and then it's quite frustrating.
>Windows updates aren't stealthy and they can be disabled. If you really don't want an update, it is MUCH MORE straightforward to avoid installing the optional update in Windows than it is for Linux distros.
What? What are you on about? I have yet to install an update for Linux that I didn't specifically give my permission for. Automatic updates are turned of by default on any distro I've tried and they don't come as bundled as they do for windows where a recent random update I just checked includes some changes for input devices, office products, basic operations security and the DST start date for the Fiji Islands.
>Which Linux distro has a better App Store than Windows? Since Microsoft launched the Windows App Store, it is the best App Store in any non-macOS computers.
It looks neat but.... For some reason it uses a different language (that I've never selected to be used) in most of it's UI. Is a common problem in Belgium apparently and I guess same in other multilingual countries which is weird because that's not an issue anywhere else in the OS. Why am I looking at some loading ring for 3-4 seconds when i click on an app? Where do I add alternative sources? Can I do stuff like build something differently on install if I want to?
>Some distros do. Ubuntu has it, for example.
An outlier more than anything and one that asks you if you want it on install and later disabling it is a checbox away.
>This is true. However, this has been a problem, which is why something like Ubuntu which has good defaults which they stick to has been so much successful than anything else.
Fully agree it has been a problem and still is for it's adoption. I don't think it's what notably contributed to Ubuntu's success in the past tho.
You mean drivers instead of hardware right? Typically performance is roughly the same. Sometimes better sometimes worse. The issue is where they don't exist or are an afterthought indeed and then it's quite frustrating.
>Windows updates aren't stealthy and they can be disabled. If you really don't want an update, it is MUCH MORE straightforward to avoid installing the optional update in Windows than it is for Linux distros.
What? What are you on about? I have yet to install an update for Linux that I didn't specifically give my permission for. Automatic updates are turned of by default on any distro I've tried and they don't come as bundled as they do for windows where a recent random update I just checked includes some changes for input devices, office products, basic operations security and the DST start date for the Fiji Islands.
>Which Linux distro has a better App Store than Windows? Since Microsoft launched the Windows App Store, it is the best App Store in any non-macOS computers.
It looks neat but.... For some reason it uses a different language (that I've never selected to be used) in most of it's UI. Is a common problem in Belgium apparently and I guess same in other multilingual countries which is weird because that's not an issue anywhere else in the OS. Why am I looking at some loading ring for 3-4 seconds when i click on an app? Where do I add alternative sources? Can I do stuff like build something differently on install if I want to?
>Some distros do. Ubuntu has it, for example.
An outlier more than anything and one that asks you if you want it on install and later disabling it is a checbox away.
>This is true. However, this has been a problem, which is why something like Ubuntu which has good defaults which they stick to has been so much successful than anything else.
Fully agree it has been a problem and still is for it's adoption. I don't think it's what notably contributed to Ubuntu's success in the past tho.
> Linux runs better on both new and older hardware. Better as in programs open faster, the file manager opens faster, the task manager opens faster. Everything uses less memory and less CPU cycles. Everything is snappier.
Unless "hardware" is many laptops or all tablets, which effectively can't run Linux (unless Android etc.)
Unless "hardware" is many laptops or all tablets, which effectively can't run Linux (unless Android etc.)
Or Nvidia which at this point in time offers the fastest graphics cards on the market and the user experience is subpar on Linux. I'm back on Windows after 17 years and I can finally enjoy a UI that doesn't lag and hardware video acceleration on a $5000 PC built a couple months ago.
> Linux runs better on both new and older hardware
.
Seriously asking - Please do suggest a good, powerful laptop and distribution that works issue-free with linux, most specifically:
1. Zero problems with sleep and resume.
2. Zero problems with bluetooth or wireless. Please recommend what vendors work well here.
3. Minimal issues with Slack or Teams.
4. Error free desktop environment.
5. Updates do not break stuff leading to Google searches on how to solve it.Lenovo T460 here works flawlessy. AS for Bluetooth it's unreliable in Windows as well but usually just works? I don't use Bluetooth much, it probably also depends on the Bluetooth profiles that you're using.
I just bought a Thinkpad L15 (AMD) a week ago, slapped Arch on that bad boy. Please keep in mind that all what im about to say required some manual work since it's Arch, but should all work "out of the box" in any other distro with a recent kernel.
Suspend / resume works perfectly out of the box, backlight worked after updating (which you should anyways after installing). Wireless worked perfectly out of the box, with NetworkManager. I use KDE Plasma, and it works well, too, without any complaints. All the function-buttons work, including volume, screen switching, sleep, mic mute. Webcam works. Didnt test slack or teams, but discord, atom and vscode (all electron apps) work perfectly fine.
Firefox & Chromium work perfectly fine.
I think in general, if you check the ArchWiki page on Laptops, there is a wonderful (and extensive) list of most common laptops and their issues (if any). Thinkpads seem to work very well, and, worst case, have good drivers made by the community for anything that doesnt work.
I think in general, if you check the ArchWiki page on Laptops, there is a wonderful (and extensive) list of most common laptops and their issues (if any). Thinkpads seem to work very well, and, worst case, have good drivers made by the community for anything that doesnt work.
Thanks for the suggestion. Finding it hard to find a 15" Thinkpad without a number-pad. Non-centered laptop keyboards gives me wrist pain. MacBooks have the right ergonomics here :(
That's all true, modern Linux distros are great - but Linux does not have software people got used to use on Windows. And this is the main reason why Linux share on desktop is 1%, not because Linux is not preinstalled. Provided that, developers of desktop software very reluctant to support Linux (even they support Mac), because investing 20-30% of development time for the user base less than 1% is pointless idea from business standpoint.
> Linux users don't have to worry nearly as much about malware, trojans, viruses, exploits. It's more secure.
Wait, Linux doesn't prevent doing stupid things, quite the opposite.
Wait, Linux doesn't prevent doing stupid things, quite the opposite.
it has extremely clear separation of permissions, unlike anything windows has. its very possible to set up a user account that can only use the browser and office programs, and that's incredibly valuable. windows can do this, too, but its messy, spotty, and to the user feels like an afterthought rather than something designed deep into the OS like on unix-likes.
>Linux doesn't have any phone home telemetry type "features" built into the OS.
Unlike macOS, You can disable ALL telemetry in under 30 seconds on Windows. There is actually even a service named "User Experience and Telemetry" that you can conveniently stop and disable in a number of ways.
Unlike macOS, You can disable ALL telemetry in under 30 seconds on Windows. There is actually even a service named "User Experience and Telemetry" that you can conveniently stop and disable in a number of ways.
Opt-out is almost always possible, but that's missing the point.
Windows is often used as a personal operating system. There is no reason for it to collect analytics, especially after decades of development, I don't think the devs are getting anything actually useful out of knowing how often my grandparents check their email.
They're collecting data, and it doesnt seem to be used to help UX development much.
Windows is often used as a personal operating system. There is no reason for it to collect analytics, especially after decades of development, I don't think the devs are getting anything actually useful out of knowing how often my grandparents check their email.
They're collecting data, and it doesnt seem to be used to help UX development much.
"Most people use Windows on the desktop because it's the default"
That's just a stereotype, and that's not true. I keep using Windows (hardened and almost isolated Parallels instance of Windows 7), because Linux has serious lack of software I need.
I need fully functional MS Office, including API bindings for data import to Excel, and no, Libre Office Calc does not have even 20% of features I need. Of course, I need 3rd party addons, like Grammarly for MS Office.
I need Enterprise Architect, modeling software of that class simply does not exist on Linux.
I need Photoshop (I have one since old good times when Adobe offered lifetime license), I use it occasionally and not 100% effective, but nope, there are no functional open-source alternatives for Linux with the same comfort of use.
People don't use Linux not because it is not pre-installed, they don't use it because it's a totally foreign ecosystem. Doing a fully functional ports of software people use under Windows would've probably moved 1% share of Linux on desktops, but it does not happen, partly because open-sourse software designers do not recognize the problem, partly because it's an immense amount of work, impossible without huge financial and human investments with unclear outcome.
I don't even say about technical issues, like total lack of backward compatibility, it's mostly a headache for techies like us.
That's just a stereotype, and that's not true. I keep using Windows (hardened and almost isolated Parallels instance of Windows 7), because Linux has serious lack of software I need.
I need fully functional MS Office, including API bindings for data import to Excel, and no, Libre Office Calc does not have even 20% of features I need. Of course, I need 3rd party addons, like Grammarly for MS Office.
I need Enterprise Architect, modeling software of that class simply does not exist on Linux.
I need Photoshop (I have one since old good times when Adobe offered lifetime license), I use it occasionally and not 100% effective, but nope, there are no functional open-source alternatives for Linux with the same comfort of use.
People don't use Linux not because it is not pre-installed, they don't use it because it's a totally foreign ecosystem. Doing a fully functional ports of software people use under Windows would've probably moved 1% share of Linux on desktops, but it does not happen, partly because open-sourse software designers do not recognize the problem, partly because it's an immense amount of work, impossible without huge financial and human investments with unclear outcome.
I don't even say about technical issues, like total lack of backward compatibility, it's mostly a headache for techies like us.
It is a stereotype, but the statement itself is not an exaggeration. An average user has most of the software he needs even in linux. It is not foreign to the user if it is the first one (if it is default) he/she encounters.
"Average" user must have used very limited amount of software. I agree, not everyone need software for modeling or design, but again, looking at Grammarly, which is pretty useful addon, and it's only available for MS Office. "Average user" may start from Libre Office, but end up disappointed, why addon developers don't care about him. And they don't care (well, maybe just deeply concerned), because investing 20-30% of the whole development time for supporting 1% of user base is financially pointless idea.
The average user needs a web browser, full stop. This can be proven easily by looking at the market success of Chromebooks.
> An average user has most of the software he needs even in linux.
"Average User" is a strawman. The average human has fewer than two legs, yet we do not design things with the assumption that no one has two legs.
"Average User" is a strawman. The average human has fewer than two legs, yet we do not design things with the assumption that no one has two legs.
I have to agree with you.
I consider myself a geek, a fairly advanced user of software and a software developer.
I have been trying different versions of Linux since the Mandrake Linux times, so about what, 20 years?
I always come back to Windows, which from Windows 2000 has been getting better and better. Of course there have been sh*t moments like Windows Vista and Windows 8, but Windows 2k, XP, 7, and now 10 (enterprise version), have always been good to me.
I can use Linux for sure, and I appreciate the effort the community does, however, for my use case, I don't see the advantage of using Linux over Windows, and I find many disadvantages: missing software (office, adobe, although I have run it under wine), missing or not perfect drivers (energy efficiency is a problem even on thinkpads).
Again, I really like the effort, and if I must use it, I can, but I don't see the advantage.
Now, I use it on my dad's computer (he is 80), as it is much difficult for him to screw up than Windows.
I consider myself a geek, a fairly advanced user of software and a software developer.
I have been trying different versions of Linux since the Mandrake Linux times, so about what, 20 years?
I always come back to Windows, which from Windows 2000 has been getting better and better. Of course there have been sh*t moments like Windows Vista and Windows 8, but Windows 2k, XP, 7, and now 10 (enterprise version), have always been good to me.
I can use Linux for sure, and I appreciate the effort the community does, however, for my use case, I don't see the advantage of using Linux over Windows, and I find many disadvantages: missing software (office, adobe, although I have run it under wine), missing or not perfect drivers (energy efficiency is a problem even on thinkpads).
Again, I really like the effort, and if I must use it, I can, but I don't see the advantage.
Now, I use it on my dad's computer (he is 80), as it is much difficult for him to screw up than Windows.
I think it really comes down to what software you need, more than proficiency. Just like you, I'm an advanced user, a software developer, and Mandrake was my first serious Linux.
For me though, software isn't missing on Linux, it's missing on Windows. I rarely need an office suite, and my needs are limited to simple Word/Writer documents and even simpler Excel/Calc spreadsheets, so even MS Office 97 or StarOffice 5 have all the needed features (minus support for XML file formats). The extent of image editing I do is limited to cropping, rotating and resizing images, so even GIMP is way overkill.
On the other hand, the software I do use and like is a pain on Windows. First it's basic text manipulation tools. Things like grep and sed are missing on Windows, and I want to e.g. "replace this line in all files in this folder" far more often than I open an Excel file. I use SSH, which isn't on Windows, and applications like putty are great but don't provide anywhere near the seamless experience that Linux has with SSH. Then there's the desktop environment itself - I use KDE Plasma 5 and find it amazing, having been a fan of KDE since 3.5. I like KDE Plasma overall much more than Windows Explorer, and then there are the individual power features, e.g. I have a button on the titlebar that toggles always-on-top for a window, and I exclude certain applications from appearing in the taskbar because they already have a systray icon.
I use Linux at work, and haven't had to boot Win7 at home since Steam Proton. I've heard that Win10 makes some things better, like it has built-in SSH. But I haven't tried Win10 myself, and at this point it'd take some Windows killer feature to make me switch.
For me though, software isn't missing on Linux, it's missing on Windows. I rarely need an office suite, and my needs are limited to simple Word/Writer documents and even simpler Excel/Calc spreadsheets, so even MS Office 97 or StarOffice 5 have all the needed features (minus support for XML file formats). The extent of image editing I do is limited to cropping, rotating and resizing images, so even GIMP is way overkill.
On the other hand, the software I do use and like is a pain on Windows. First it's basic text manipulation tools. Things like grep and sed are missing on Windows, and I want to e.g. "replace this line in all files in this folder" far more often than I open an Excel file. I use SSH, which isn't on Windows, and applications like putty are great but don't provide anywhere near the seamless experience that Linux has with SSH. Then there's the desktop environment itself - I use KDE Plasma 5 and find it amazing, having been a fan of KDE since 3.5. I like KDE Plasma overall much more than Windows Explorer, and then there are the individual power features, e.g. I have a button on the titlebar that toggles always-on-top for a window, and I exclude certain applications from appearing in the taskbar because they already have a systray icon.
I use Linux at work, and haven't had to boot Win7 at home since Steam Proton. I've heard that Win10 makes some things better, like it has built-in SSH. But I haven't tried Win10 myself, and at this point it'd take some Windows killer feature to make me switch.
Agree with you. It is a matter of what software do you need.
That said, for my use case, I have never found a software that I need on Windows that is only available on Linux.
The opposite happens to me a lot.
That said, for my use case, I have never found a software that I need on Windows that is only available on Linux.
The opposite happens to me a lot.
> That said, for my use case, I have never found a software that I need on Windows that is only available on Linux.
For the sake of fairness, it should be noted that most Linux software is open source and can be run on other platforms even if mainly meant for Linux. Git is a prime example, developed as a Linux program - in fact developed by Linus Torvalds specifically for the kernel - but it runs on Windows with a few quirks. LaTeX is a Linux-first project but you can also use it on Windows, etc.
This mostly doesn't happen in the opposite direction because of closed, proprietary software. Could Photoshop be ported to run on Linux, and with how much effort? We do not know.
For the sake of fairness, it should be noted that most Linux software is open source and can be run on other platforms even if mainly meant for Linux. Git is a prime example, developed as a Linux program - in fact developed by Linus Torvalds specifically for the kernel - but it runs on Windows with a few quirks. LaTeX is a Linux-first project but you can also use it on Windows, etc.
This mostly doesn't happen in the opposite direction because of closed, proprietary software. Could Photoshop be ported to run on Linux, and with how much effort? We do not know.
FWIW, git didn't simply run on windows, it was rewritten to do it.
Say it like it is, you don't know the tools, not that they are missing.
> grep and sed are missing on Windows,
cinst grep sed dngrep ...
> "replace this line in all files in this folder"
Everything file search engine is beyond anything LInux has to offer.
> I use SSH, which isn't on Windows,
cist mls-software-openssh
Besides, Open SSH is now OTB in Windows
> use KDE Plasma 5 and find it amazing, having been a fan of KDE since 3.5. I like KDE Plasma overall much more than Windows Explorer,
All GUIs everywhere are equal SHIT. Its just your preference.
> grep and sed are missing on Windows,
cinst grep sed dngrep ...
> "replace this line in all files in this folder"
Everything file search engine is beyond anything LInux has to offer.
> I use SSH, which isn't on Windows,
cist mls-software-openssh
Besides, Open SSH is now OTB in Windows
> use KDE Plasma 5 and find it amazing, having been a fan of KDE since 3.5. I like KDE Plasma overall much more than Windows Explorer,
All GUIs everywhere are equal SHIT. Its just your preference.
Probably we use different Windows. Cygwin installation is simple and gives you grep, sed, ssh, any Unix utility. Windows 10 comes with complete Linux Subsystem.
I use grep and ssh on windows regularly, didn't find any problems yet, have sed too.
check out the WSL. that's the killer feature that will cause me to switch.
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/administrati...
>OpenSSH has been added to Windows as of autumn 2018, and is included in Windows 10 and Windows Server 2019.
>OpenSSH has been added to Windows as of autumn 2018, and is included in Windows 10 and Windows Server 2019.
Most of your arguments are reasonable however they are trending to become weak over time.
- Photoshop : your lifetime license is not really lifetime, CS2 servers got shut down recently, Adobe will shut down those servers sooner or later. While you may not find it true for you, for the non professional Gimp is generally good enough. Also the Mac version of Photoshop while having some kinks even for professional use is pretty comparable, you don't need Windows given you are already using a macOS.
- Enterprise Architect: If your argument is nobody is investing in Linux desktop modelling apps it can be argued nobody is investing in desktop modelling apps today period whether in Windows or Linux or Mac .
Modelling applications on the web/mobile like Miro(just raised $100M+) or draw.io or many others have gained a lot of traction. Sharing and collaborating on the model has lot more value than few advanced features, Yes today Enterprise Architect has more features, however that is not going to last and these apps have a lot of functionality already that average users will not find them lacking even today.
- MS Office: Sharepoint/o365 is almost as good as desktop office for most common use cases and getting better lot faster than upgrades to Excel. Yes Excel is used for those million row sheets with gazillion circular dependent formulas, and it works pretty darn well for all that people throw at it. Sharepoint is improving, the use cases it is poor at handling will become smaller and smaller that procurement departments will start questioning desktop license budgets for Office apps.
On the whole barring some exceptions like gaming, graphics etc there are only few new active investments for desktop apps that are not just electron apps of web.
OS is becoming irrelevant for productivity apps outside of these sectors and legacy reasons. It is not big tech does not know that, Apple is dropping dual boot in the next gen chip and it is not like windows or linux cannot support ARM, the pace of OS development has slowed considerably, Windows is only do to incremental updates to 10, the cost and effort of doing a major release is no longer worth the returns.
- Photoshop : your lifetime license is not really lifetime, CS2 servers got shut down recently, Adobe will shut down those servers sooner or later. While you may not find it true for you, for the non professional Gimp is generally good enough. Also the Mac version of Photoshop while having some kinks even for professional use is pretty comparable, you don't need Windows given you are already using a macOS.
- Enterprise Architect: If your argument is nobody is investing in Linux desktop modelling apps it can be argued nobody is investing in desktop modelling apps today period whether in Windows or Linux or Mac .
Modelling applications on the web/mobile like Miro(just raised $100M+) or draw.io or many others have gained a lot of traction. Sharing and collaborating on the model has lot more value than few advanced features, Yes today Enterprise Architect has more features, however that is not going to last and these apps have a lot of functionality already that average users will not find them lacking even today.
- MS Office: Sharepoint/o365 is almost as good as desktop office for most common use cases and getting better lot faster than upgrades to Excel. Yes Excel is used for those million row sheets with gazillion circular dependent formulas, and it works pretty darn well for all that people throw at it. Sharepoint is improving, the use cases it is poor at handling will become smaller and smaller that procurement departments will start questioning desktop license budgets for Office apps.
On the whole barring some exceptions like gaming, graphics etc there are only few new active investments for desktop apps that are not just electron apps of web.
OS is becoming irrelevant for productivity apps outside of these sectors and legacy reasons. It is not big tech does not know that, Apple is dropping dual boot in the next gen chip and it is not like windows or linux cannot support ARM, the pace of OS development has slowed considerably, Windows is only do to incremental updates to 10, the cost and effort of doing a major release is no longer worth the returns.
I got your point, but as a developer working on User Privacy products, I consider "software as a service" model personally unacceptable. I do not force anyone into my philosophy, but I will try to keep my offline software functional as long as possible, before maybe I find self-sufficient solution to replace it (like I did with migrating all Evernote documents into Nextcloud).
And again, I emphasized "software of that class" for a reason, because migrating "easy stuff" like productivity tools to Linux/Mac was not a hassle. I'm sure there's ton of new promising modeling solutions, but I can't stop using Enterprise Architect because of literal vendor lock. I use automation and I use code generation, which is implemented through .NET API (not .NET Core), which assumes Windows. However, I suppose, 99% of EA users don't worry it's Windows-only, for many enterprise-class solutions OS is just a wrapper for the software.
And again, I emphasized "software of that class" for a reason, because migrating "easy stuff" like productivity tools to Linux/Mac was not a hassle. I'm sure there's ton of new promising modeling solutions, but I can't stop using Enterprise Architect because of literal vendor lock. I use automation and I use code generation, which is implemented through .NET API (not .NET Core), which assumes Windows. However, I suppose, 99% of EA users don't worry it's Windows-only, for many enterprise-class solutions OS is just a wrapper for the software.
While your points are valid, this is not what the overwhelming majority of Windows users consider. People use Windows because it's what came installed in the computer and it runs the software they think they need. In their point of view it's not broken (because either they never experience the brokenness, or because they don't know what not broken looks like).
From my point of view, Linux is not broken at all. It runs the software I need (I'm comfortable with Gimp, I don't have spreadsheets that pass the limits of LibreOffice and I don't use EA). Lately, the move from X to Wayland has been introducing some brokenness - it's not as easy as it used to be to run X apps across the network - but I imagine all these will be eventually fixed.
Like you said, most users don't worry EA is Windows-only because most users don't worry about things like OS.
From my point of view, Linux is not broken at all. It runs the software I need (I'm comfortable with Gimp, I don't have spreadsheets that pass the limits of LibreOffice and I don't use EA). Lately, the move from X to Wayland has been introducing some brokenness - it's not as easy as it used to be to run X apps across the network - but I imagine all these will be eventually fixed.
Like you said, most users don't worry EA is Windows-only because most users don't worry about things like OS.
Out of curiosity, have you ever tried wps office? I found it to be more compatible with MS Office than Libreoffice and it works on Linux. Furthermore I'd like to know its limits, but only have relatively simple excel files and never used scripts within excel.
I used it couple of times, my wife's laptop came with pre-installed WPS. I definitely liked the product more than Libre Office, it is fast, could fit most of average user needs and compatible with MS Office.
My needs are far from average though, as I mentioned in the post. Not sure its spreadsheet editor would even recognize what's happening in my Excel files.
My needs are far from average though, as I mentioned in the post. Not sure its spreadsheet editor would even recognize what's happening in my Excel files.
> [...] I consider "software as a service" model personally unacceptable. [...] I will try to keep my offline software functional as long as possible, before maybe I find self-sufficient solution to replace
I am not trying to convince you of anything, and you have the right to hold to your contradictions, but I find this at odds with most proprietary software, even more so if their execution environment isn't stable or 100% under control.
Regarding your specific needs, it also does sound a bit like the XY problem: you don't really need an app (unless locked-in by data you can't migrate), you just need the functionality it provides, though that may require some unlearning first. Oh and yeah, of course there aren't alternatives for everything.
But if you are really locked in and see the writing on the wall for your solution, you always have the option of creating your own migration path, or a stub application that does the bare minimum you need. Other might step in and help you, so it might be worth asking around first.
I am not trying to convince you of anything, and you have the right to hold to your contradictions, but I find this at odds with most proprietary software, even more so if their execution environment isn't stable or 100% under control.
Regarding your specific needs, it also does sound a bit like the XY problem: you don't really need an app (unless locked-in by data you can't migrate), you just need the functionality it provides, though that may require some unlearning first. Oh and yeah, of course there aren't alternatives for everything.
But if you are really locked in and see the writing on the wall for your solution, you always have the option of creating your own migration path, or a stub application that does the bare minimum you need. Other might step in and help you, so it might be worth asking around first.
Are you sure photoshop is not supported on wine? https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=applicatio... some versions report platinum level support.
> that's not true.... I keep using Windows
A counter-example doesn't disprove a general point.
You're describing a strong tie-in in your work environment to specific commercial software articles that are unavailable on Linux. This does not characterize most people (or even a large enough minority).
Now, you could make the argument that people interact with others using MS-Office documents, and that support for them in LibreOffice is insufficient. One could argue this both ways (as support has improved over the years and is by now passable IMHO), but that's not the same as what you're using.
In general, it _is_ true that people use the Operation System that came installed on their system. Most people are unable, or feel unable, to install an OS themselves and would not feel comfortable taking responsibility for choosing a different OS for their computing. Most do not even see this as a choice they are making.
Finally, the "foreign ecosystem" argument is circular. If you get a computer preinstalled with some operating system, and you learn how to use that, than other systems seem foreign. Few people get a Mac as a present then try to install Windows on it because it's a "foreign ecosystem"
> Doing a fully functional ports of software people use under Windows would've
It's the commercial companies which sell this kind of software that can port it.
A counter-example doesn't disprove a general point.
You're describing a strong tie-in in your work environment to specific commercial software articles that are unavailable on Linux. This does not characterize most people (or even a large enough minority).
Now, you could make the argument that people interact with others using MS-Office documents, and that support for them in LibreOffice is insufficient. One could argue this both ways (as support has improved over the years and is by now passable IMHO), but that's not the same as what you're using.
In general, it _is_ true that people use the Operation System that came installed on their system. Most people are unable, or feel unable, to install an OS themselves and would not feel comfortable taking responsibility for choosing a different OS for their computing. Most do not even see this as a choice they are making.
Finally, the "foreign ecosystem" argument is circular. If you get a computer preinstalled with some operating system, and you learn how to use that, than other systems seem foreign. Few people get a Mac as a present then try to install Windows on it because it's a "foreign ecosystem"
> Doing a fully functional ports of software people use under Windows would've
It's the commercial companies which sell this kind of software that can port it.
> In general, it _is_ true that people use the Operation System that came installed on their system. Most people are unable, or feel unable, to install an OS themselves and would not feel comfortable taking responsibility for choosing a different OS for their computing. Most do not even see this as a choice they are making.
This suggests that, if given the option, people would buy a computer with Linux preinstalled instead of Windows. Yet, when such things were tried, people did not. Windows is pre-installed because it is the OS people want and need, not the other way around. There are an uncountable number of specialized applications for niche workflows available on Windows that are not available on Linux.
As briefly mentioned by the parent, a large part of the problem is how Linux approaches software: no real binary compatibility, for instance, means that you need this army of maintainers and packagers to keep software working. Who is going to do that for these niche pieces of software? I know that to many developers the idea of not-constantly-maintained software being used by people is an existential career threat and therefore a high crime, but the rest of the world has work to do and is totally fine using VB6 applications last compiled in 2004 because it allows them to actually get things done.
This suggests that, if given the option, people would buy a computer with Linux preinstalled instead of Windows. Yet, when such things were tried, people did not. Windows is pre-installed because it is the OS people want and need, not the other way around. There are an uncountable number of specialized applications for niche workflows available on Windows that are not available on Linux.
As briefly mentioned by the parent, a large part of the problem is how Linux approaches software: no real binary compatibility, for instance, means that you need this army of maintainers and packagers to keep software working. Who is going to do that for these niche pieces of software? I know that to many developers the idea of not-constantly-maintained software being used by people is an existential career threat and therefore a high crime, but the rest of the world has work to do and is totally fine using VB6 applications last compiled in 2004 because it allows them to actually get things done.
> This suggests that, if given the option, people would buy a computer with Linux preinstalled instead of Windows.
No, what I said does not suggest that.
> no real binary compatibility, for instance, means that you need this army of maintainers and packagers to keep software working.
It's a smaller army than the army you need in order to keep Microsoft Windows working, and even smaller compared to the army you need to keep the Windows software equivalent to what you get as part of a Linux distribution.
> There are an uncountable number of specialized applications for niche workflows available on Windows that are not available on Linux.
That's not relevant to my argument.
No, what I said does not suggest that.
> no real binary compatibility, for instance, means that you need this army of maintainers and packagers to keep software working.
It's a smaller army than the army you need in order to keep Microsoft Windows working, and even smaller compared to the army you need to keep the Windows software equivalent to what you get as part of a Linux distribution.
> There are an uncountable number of specialized applications for niche workflows available on Windows that are not available on Linux.
That's not relevant to my argument.
Agree 100%. Lack of industry standards was the problem for Desktop Linux 20 years ago, and still is today. Come to think of it, the biggest alternatives like GIMP and Libre Office (Star Office) were already present in the 90s.
Plug for gnumeric, which was better than libreoffice/openofice/staroffice calc in the 90s and still is today. ssconvert is a nice thing too.
> I need Enterprise Architect, modeling software of that class simply does not exist on Linux.
That is not quite true. At least Visual Paradigm exists for Linux. I consider it to be even better than Enterprise Architect.
https://www.visual-paradigm.com/download/index.jsp?platform=...
That is not quite true. At least Visual Paradigm exists for Linux. I consider it to be even better than Enterprise Architect.
https://www.visual-paradigm.com/download/index.jsp?platform=...
I used both. Visual Paradigm is not even close
I wouldn't call myself a UML power user, so maybe my comparison was not challenging enough. What I like better in VP is the usability.
What did you miss in VP?
What did you miss in VP?
I use both code generation, and backward automated modeling from code, which is possible only on EA to my knowledge. Overall usability was worse, maybe because of old Java SWT interface (last time I used VP in 2011)
Just look at Android, iPhone, Chrome OS.
No compatibility with Windows, hardly anyone changes OS. Have not heard much complains about MS Office, Photoshop or Enterprise Architect. People use browser 99% of the time.
No compatibility with Windows, hardly anyone changes OS. Have not heard much complains about MS Office, Photoshop or Enterprise Architect. People use browser 99% of the time.
I know quite a lot of folks here are fed up with moves away from native apps and towards Electron-wrapped web apps (and often for totally valid reasons) but it's been a godsend for making Linux a usable daily driver OS. IMO if you're doing eg web dev work in a GSuite / Slack / Figma / etc organization, it's never been a better time to try desktop Linux!
Honestly I'd suggest they just use Qt then. Our company is writing a portable replacement to our Electron client right now. The electron option was absolute garbage, very limited, and caused us untold pain. We got tired of telling customers "we can't really do that". The Qt version is already working on Linux and Windows, and on whatever CPUs we compile it for. There's no excuse for Electron, because there are good, portable GUI frameworks and libraries to use instead. Hell, don't like Qt? Use GTK+! I use GTK+ for my own portable personal projects, I like the API better and it integrates better with XFCE.
Qt is nice but costs money for developers of proprietary software. Electron has its own costs but most of them are externalized to the user. So it wins out.
? It's LGPL, so as long as you link dynamically, it's fine for proprietary software to use it. A lot of commercial proprietary software in the VFX industry does this (Nuke, Katana, Mari, Maya, Houdini, etc).
IDK a lot of proprietary developers don't understand the LGPL and are scared by its copyleft. They like how simple the MIT license is.
Also, apple's app store is famously LGPL-incompatible.
Also, apple's app store is famously LGPL-incompatible.
> Also, apple's app store is famously LGPL-incompatible.
If you're shipping a proprietary application that links to LGPL libraries in accordance to the license, that's fine.
It's GPL applications that the App Store bans.
If you're shipping a proprietary application that links to LGPL libraries in accordance to the license, that's fine.
It's GPL applications that the App Store bans.
Not a lawyer but LGPLv3 contains the anti tivoization rule, which might cause issues with the mandatory signing.
IIRC, Qt has been licensed under the LGPL for many many years, so you can develop proprietary software that dynamically links to Qt no cost.
I guess there will be people going to say that QT is LGPL, which allows people to use in proprietary applications. But I think there must be people who just want permissive alternative, and Electron is MIT, so it is indeed more viable (liceise wise).
Because then you have to use C++. That alone is a big turnoff to a lot of developers.
Nope, you can also use Python, like I do with my 3rd party Elite: Dangerous application: https://captainslog.scarygliders.net/captains-log-2/
All written in Python, recently moved to Qt5 and PySide2, runs on Windows and when I figure out packaging for Linux (probably AppImage) will release it for Linux as well.
I believe there are Qt bindings for other languages too.
So you're not stuck with C++ :)
All written in Python, recently moved to Qt5 and PySide2, runs on Windows and when I figure out packaging for Linux (probably AppImage) will release it for Linux as well.
I believe there are Qt bindings for other languages too.
So you're not stuck with C++ :)
I like that UI! Out of curiosity, do you use a kind of wysiwyg (a la qt designer) to make your interfaces, or do you write Python code directly? Coming from JavaFX using scenebuilder to design UIs, l tried Pyside2 some years ago, never managed to find a way to make it work with a wysiwyg the way I am used to with JavaFX. Writing and styling widgets by hand is painfully slow.
Thanks :)
I use Qt Designer for the layout. I never could get the hang of the Horizontal & Vertical spacers or the Layout Managers in Qt, so it's a static layout.
There are quite a few "pages" in the application which appear or disappear when required. Those are all QWidgets which have their own static layout.
The doughnut chart showing materials available on a planet is a dynamically created web page shown via a QtWebView widget.
There's an Overlay Widget which is basically a QWidget with transparency, with the main window being hidden then called up via a global hotkey - I use Python ctypes to enable the global hotkey, calling the Windows API to enable that functionality.
And the underlying databases used are sqlite3 via SQLAlchemy.
It all works very nicely.
I use Qt Designer for the layout. I never could get the hang of the Horizontal & Vertical spacers or the Layout Managers in Qt, so it's a static layout.
There are quite a few "pages" in the application which appear or disappear when required. Those are all QWidgets which have their own static layout.
The doughnut chart showing materials available on a planet is a dynamically created web page shown via a QtWebView widget.
There's an Overlay Widget which is basically a QWidget with transparency, with the main window being hidden then called up via a global hotkey - I use Python ctypes to enable the global hotkey, calling the Windows API to enable that functionality.
And the underlying databases used are sqlite3 via SQLAlchemy.
It all works very nicely.
Nice. I didn't know that there were bindings for other languages now.
+1 for Qt.
I dumped GTK a few years back due to - and I have no idea if the same thing happens today - weirdness with GTK themes not working between minor releases of it, and I vaguely remember there were other annoyances but by then I was impressed with Qt and the PySide (noe PySide2) bindings so stuck with it.
I dumped GTK a few years back due to - and I have no idea if the same thing happens today - weirdness with GTK themes not working between minor releases of it, and I vaguely remember there were other annoyances but by then I was impressed with Qt and the PySide (noe PySide2) bindings so stuck with it.
Why do you need web apps wrapped in their own window, though? Just open a browser.
Relatedly, Electron is a problem because desktop apps nowadays require a huge browser just to display a window, not because web apps are packaged in a browser to get slightly better desktop integration.
Relatedly, Electron is a problem because desktop apps nowadays require a huge browser just to display a window, not because web apps are packaged in a browser to get slightly better desktop integration.
Electron app:
works offline
has more permissions
can use udp
separate alt-tab, tray display
is not throttled because it's in the background (on desktop)
unaffected by browser settings
unaffected by clear cookies
unaffected by extensions
less confusion over who handles keybindsAre these supposed to be advantages over using the browser for these "apps"? As someone who uses the browser for most of these things, I was looking for some reason why the electron app would be better and I don't see any (and see some definite negative aspects).
Do you really not see any of these as advantages, at all?
You don't use a task bar on your computer? You would never want to be able to alt-tab to a programming IDE or music player?
You can't imagine why someone would want to be have a programming IDE like Atom that didn't need to pop up a dialog box literally every time you wanted to save a file to disk?
You can't imagine why someone would want an IDE like Atom to automatically read from their local Git config and hook into native commands for functionality like file grepping? Or why someone would want to be able to use native volume controls to separately control volume in a music player and their overall browser?
You've never wanted to start a long-running process in an application and then alt-tab to a separate program while it completes without that process getting throttled?
You can't imagine why someone would want to clear all local data from normal websites in their browser without also clearing all of the local data stored in every web app that they're using? When you want to clear some old files on your computer or empty your trash, do you prefer to just `rm -rf` your home directory?
You don't use a task bar on your computer? You would never want to be able to alt-tab to a programming IDE or music player?
You can't imagine why someone would want to be have a programming IDE like Atom that didn't need to pop up a dialog box literally every time you wanted to save a file to disk?
You can't imagine why someone would want an IDE like Atom to automatically read from their local Git config and hook into native commands for functionality like file grepping? Or why someone would want to be able to use native volume controls to separately control volume in a music player and their overall browser?
You've never wanted to start a long-running process in an application and then alt-tab to a separate program while it completes without that process getting throttled?
You can't imagine why someone would want to clear all local data from normal websites in their browser without also clearing all of the local data stored in every web app that they're using? When you want to clear some old files on your computer or empty your trash, do you prefer to just `rm -rf` your home directory?
> Do you really not see any of these as advantages, at all?
I can see how they would be an advantage to some, but a detriment to others. I don't find any of these things to be enough of an advantage to outweigh the advantages of having it in browser.
> You don't use a task bar on your computer?
Nope.
> You would never want to be able to alt-tab to a programming IDE or music player?
Having these in browser means 1 less window to keep on the desktop taking up space so I don't need to alt-tab as much. I can see both my IDE and my browser at the same time.
> [ .. Atom, more interactive app section ...]
I don't use Atom or VSCode (electron-based editors) so this isn't an issue for me. But I can totally see wanting these to be as native as possible, so using them that way makes sense. So I'll 100% concede the point for code editors.
For data I use Firefox containers to keep that things compartmentalized sufficiently so there to no need to worry about polluting local data stores.
I can see how they would be an advantage to some, but a detriment to others. I don't find any of these things to be enough of an advantage to outweigh the advantages of having it in browser.
> You don't use a task bar on your computer?
Nope.
> You would never want to be able to alt-tab to a programming IDE or music player?
Having these in browser means 1 less window to keep on the desktop taking up space so I don't need to alt-tab as much. I can see both my IDE and my browser at the same time.
> [ .. Atom, more interactive app section ...]
I don't use Atom or VSCode (electron-based editors) so this isn't an issue for me. But I can totally see wanting these to be as native as possible, so using them that way makes sense. So I'll 100% concede the point for code editors.
For data I use Firefox containers to keep that things compartmentalized sufficiently so there to no need to worry about polluting local data stores.
What browser do you use that is unaffected by browser settings? Sounds like a metaphysical anomaly to me.
I'm not saying a browser isn't effected by its settings. I'm saying that not being affected by browser settings is not an advantage. If I'm running an in-browser app, I want and expect it to be effected by my browser settings.
I mean, few if not most of those things are available in PWA and via plugins (containers?), maybe not on apple but they are on windows and Linux.
There is a new filesystem api: https://web.dev/file-system-access/
Electron still provides more freedom but I would argue many of the existing electron apps don't need it.
There is a new filesystem api: https://web.dev/file-system-access/
Electron still provides more freedom but I would argue many of the existing electron apps don't need it.
Most of that applies to PWAs, daemons with Web UI and native UI Web Widgets, no need to package a browser with the application, contributing to Chrome market share.
Web apps have been able to work offline for like a decade now, iirc.
Not well. I'm optimistic about the web in general, but I consider good, reliable clientside storage to still be an unsolved problem, at least for the moment.
Some of the things we're still missing:
- the ability to easily share data between domains without opening yourself up to massive security risks.
- the ability to share data with native apps.
- the ability to move data between browsers without syncing it to an online account.
- the ability for normal users to inspect offline data.
- the ability to trust that browsers like Safari won't just arbitrarily delete your data one day.[0]
- the ability to trust that browser upgrades won't ever corrupt the data you have stored.[1]
- the ability to share large amounts of data without worrying about storage limits (this matters a lot if you're making an editor like Atom or Visual Studio).
Typically, what I see with offline apps is that they'll use offline storage, but they don't trust it. They use it when possible as a progressive enhancement, but then they have to sync that data to a server someplace if it's something that users actually care about. And that matches my experiences as a web developer as well. I can't imagine building something like a password manager or text editor in-browser that was only storing data locally, I wouldn't trust that.
It's also not just a technological problem, it's a problem of UX. If I tried to make a purely offline web app, I'd be getting angry customer calls in a week asking where their data went just from them clearing browser history and not realizing that it deleted all their data as well. There isn't a user-friendly, user-controlled way to indicate that storage for one website should be permanent, and users aren't really trained to think that way about the web anyway -- their instinct is to think of it as transient.
----
[0]: https://ar.al/2020/03/25/apple-just-killed-offline-web-apps-...
[1]: https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/12/17/google-fixes-chrome...
Some of the things we're still missing:
- the ability to easily share data between domains without opening yourself up to massive security risks.
- the ability to share data with native apps.
- the ability to move data between browsers without syncing it to an online account.
- the ability for normal users to inspect offline data.
- the ability to trust that browsers like Safari won't just arbitrarily delete your data one day.[0]
- the ability to trust that browser upgrades won't ever corrupt the data you have stored.[1]
- the ability to share large amounts of data without worrying about storage limits (this matters a lot if you're making an editor like Atom or Visual Studio).
Typically, what I see with offline apps is that they'll use offline storage, but they don't trust it. They use it when possible as a progressive enhancement, but then they have to sync that data to a server someplace if it's something that users actually care about. And that matches my experiences as a web developer as well. I can't imagine building something like a password manager or text editor in-browser that was only storing data locally, I wouldn't trust that.
It's also not just a technological problem, it's a problem of UX. If I tried to make a purely offline web app, I'd be getting angry customer calls in a week asking where their data went just from them clearing browser history and not realizing that it deleted all their data as well. There isn't a user-friendly, user-controlled way to indicate that storage for one website should be permanent, and users aren't really trained to think that way about the web anyway -- their instinct is to think of it as transient.
----
[0]: https://ar.al/2020/03/25/apple-just-killed-offline-web-apps-...
[1]: https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/12/17/google-fixes-chrome...
> can use udp
What are you even talking about? Any unprivileged process can open a udp socket.
What are you even talking about? Any unprivileged process can open a udp socket.
The parent is talking about pros/cons of browser vs Electron. You can't use UDP from the browser
That comment was in response to
> Why do you need web apps wrapped in their own window, though? Just open a browser.
> Why do you need web apps wrapped in their own window, though? Just open a browser.
Interesting. The context isn't even very far from the comment. It's literally one comment up. I've noticed this quite often on HN. Is it a working memory issue?
I like Slack and similar having their own icon and entry in the alt-tab switcher. Absent ubiquitous PWA support, electron is sort of the least bad alternative.
Sounds like there is an opportunity for someone to provide a way to display an icon in the window manager that saves a gigabyte of RAM. :D
ironically, windows just included this for Edge, you can alt tab between browser windows and you can put websites as taskbar apps ( and will also jump to all windows of the app easily as well)
Chrome apps?
.lnk files. Or on Linux, .desktop files. Can contain an URL. You click it, a browser opens. The tech is decades old at this point.
I believe he meant an icon for the running window, not one on the desktop or menu.
You can kind of do this with Chrome for any website. More tools->create shortcut in the menu.
We’ve used this for years as our answer to users who request a desktop app. They’re generally pleasantly surprised and satisfied with the result.
Yeah, my experience is that these behave in unusual ways: it’s ok, but they always feel a bit off, even compared to Electron
You have to design your site for this, back in the IE days we did this for some corporate tools and went full kiosk mode. The user didn't even know that it was a website.
Ah, fair point. Electron is a good fit for web apps that would otherwise live in a browser, I agree.
File system access?
Ability to Play a Video stream without a user click?
Access to non-CORS enabled APIs if needed?
Most apps don't need that feature. In fact, the apps which insist on electron experience often misuse it. Think of the zoom daemon that remained on mac desktops even if you uninstalled zoom.
Every time I click a zoom link these days on macOS, I get really annoyed that I have to click again to get into the video call: the security issue was unfortunate, but (for me) Zoom was absolutely right about the UX.
Zoom has nothing to do with electron
All of them doable with daemon applications, plus file system access APIs are already available.
Unfortunately you have things like Discord that require access to native APIs in order to properly function (eg. Push to talk).
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Agreed. Between Gsuite, Gitkraken, Figma, VSCode, PopOS, and my $700 Ryzen 4700u laptop, web dev is absolutely stellar. Would never go back to Windows or MacOS. Everything with PopOS and this AMD laptop works out of the box.
I can definitely understand people sticking to Windows though if they need gaming or Office.
I can definitely understand people sticking to Windows though if they need gaming or Office.
Can anyone say why browser based IDEs like Jupyter Notebook are taking over desktop programs?
I'm finding I keep getting pushed to Jupyter and just am not crazy about it.
I'm finding I keep getting pushed to Jupyter and just am not crazy about it.
People want something like a persistent REPL, and for whatever reason most IDEs have either not supported this or supported it badly.
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On the flip side side: my low end machines no longer seem to be usable anymore.
I started my journey with linux at the age of 12 when Canonical was sending out free CD's of Ubuntu Hardy Heron 8.04. After nearly 13 years of usage I am a happy user of Windows 10 now. My reasons are:
* Horrible font rendering that makes me not even want to code
* Terrible application support
* Audio and touchpad support is noticeably superior on Windows
* Small things that you have to tinker with in order to get everything set up
But the most important thing is that I am just tired of tinkering. Nowadays I just want to open my computer and get on my programming job and have everything just work. MacOS seems to be a good compromise though (Application support and UNIX subsystem for programming)
* Horrible font rendering that makes me not even want to code
* Terrible application support
* Audio and touchpad support is noticeably superior on Windows
* Small things that you have to tinker with in order to get everything set up
But the most important thing is that I am just tired of tinkering. Nowadays I just want to open my computer and get on my programming job and have everything just work. MacOS seems to be a good compromise though (Application support and UNIX subsystem for programming)
> After nearly 13 years of usage I am a happy user of Windows 10 now.
All right, then I really need to ask: it took you 13 years of using Ubuntu unhappily before you decided to switch to Windows?
> Horrible font rendering that makes me not even want to code
I know every system does font rendering a bit differently, and what people like to see really seems to have a big subjective factor it. Personally, I've always had a preference to how fonts are rendered on, for example, Ubuntu compared to Windows 10, especially with 2x scaling on high-DPI displays, but I acknowledge everyone's different.
> But the most important thing is that I am just tired of tinkering. Nowadays I just want to open my computer and get on my programming job and have everything just work.
Not disagreeing with you on this point. However, when it comes to "tinkering", I find all the cloud-connected nonsense and "extras" that Windows comes with turned on and thrown in your face by default after an install a much bigger annoyance, and I often have to go digging through all kinds of settings windows to get a good deal of that turned off, and even then it's not always possible (see telemetry, for example). A new Windows 10 install is a lot more effort in "tinkering" with all the settings into some sane configuration than any Linux distro where you're not compiling your own kernel and/or packages (and maybe even then).
All right, then I really need to ask: it took you 13 years of using Ubuntu unhappily before you decided to switch to Windows?
> Horrible font rendering that makes me not even want to code
I know every system does font rendering a bit differently, and what people like to see really seems to have a big subjective factor it. Personally, I've always had a preference to how fonts are rendered on, for example, Ubuntu compared to Windows 10, especially with 2x scaling on high-DPI displays, but I acknowledge everyone's different.
> But the most important thing is that I am just tired of tinkering. Nowadays I just want to open my computer and get on my programming job and have everything just work.
Not disagreeing with you on this point. However, when it comes to "tinkering", I find all the cloud-connected nonsense and "extras" that Windows comes with turned on and thrown in your face by default after an install a much bigger annoyance, and I often have to go digging through all kinds of settings windows to get a good deal of that turned off, and even then it's not always possible (see telemetry, for example). A new Windows 10 install is a lot more effort in "tinkering" with all the settings into some sane configuration than any Linux distro where you're not compiling your own kernel and/or packages (and maybe even then).
>All right, then I really need to ask: it took you 13 years of using Ubuntu unhappily before you decided to switch to Windows?
I went from Ubuntu to Debian, from there to Arch, played around with BSD's, back to Arch, then to Ubuntu. I had a lot of fun doing things like writing GTK+ apps and playing around with sysadmin stuff but certain user experience related things never really went away.
>I know every system does font rendering a bit differently, and what people like to see really seems to have a big subjective factor it. Personally, I've always had a preference to how fonts are rendered on, for example, Ubuntu compared to Windows 10, especially with 2x scaling on high-DPI displays, but I acknowledge everyone's different.
At >200 dpi I find that even VGA fonts look good. The difference is clear when you compare MBA 2017 to MBA 2018 font rendering, a HiDPI display fixes everything. I could see Windows font rendering degrade on hiDPI due to Cleartype forcing subpixel rendering but I don't possess such display devices.
>Not disagreeing with you on this point. However, when it comes to "tinkering", I find all the cloud-connected nonsense and "extras" that Windows comes with turned on and thrown in your face by default after an install a much bigger annoyance, and I often have to go digging through all kinds of settings windows to get a good deal of that turned off, and even then it's not always possible (see telemetry, for example). A new Windows 10 install is a lot more effort in "tinkering" with all the settings into some sane configuration than any Linux distro where you're not compiling your own kernel and/or packages (and maybe even then).
I used the Windows 10 LTSC iso from Windows' own website and it has no adware or extra apps installed, even Microsoft Store is disabled. Nowadays Windows Defender seems to carry it's weight.
I guess instead of "I am tired of tinkering" I should have specified it as "I am tired of tinkering on things I don't find fun to tinker with" like DPI and drivers on Linux. I'd rather tinker with Haskell or my job without the OS getting in my way.
MacOS seems to be a great compromise between the two. HiDPI macs look great and I can tinker on choice.
I went from Ubuntu to Debian, from there to Arch, played around with BSD's, back to Arch, then to Ubuntu. I had a lot of fun doing things like writing GTK+ apps and playing around with sysadmin stuff but certain user experience related things never really went away.
>I know every system does font rendering a bit differently, and what people like to see really seems to have a big subjective factor it. Personally, I've always had a preference to how fonts are rendered on, for example, Ubuntu compared to Windows 10, especially with 2x scaling on high-DPI displays, but I acknowledge everyone's different.
At >200 dpi I find that even VGA fonts look good. The difference is clear when you compare MBA 2017 to MBA 2018 font rendering, a HiDPI display fixes everything. I could see Windows font rendering degrade on hiDPI due to Cleartype forcing subpixel rendering but I don't possess such display devices.
>Not disagreeing with you on this point. However, when it comes to "tinkering", I find all the cloud-connected nonsense and "extras" that Windows comes with turned on and thrown in your face by default after an install a much bigger annoyance, and I often have to go digging through all kinds of settings windows to get a good deal of that turned off, and even then it's not always possible (see telemetry, for example). A new Windows 10 install is a lot more effort in "tinkering" with all the settings into some sane configuration than any Linux distro where you're not compiling your own kernel and/or packages (and maybe even then).
I used the Windows 10 LTSC iso from Windows' own website and it has no adware or extra apps installed, even Microsoft Store is disabled. Nowadays Windows Defender seems to carry it's weight.
I guess instead of "I am tired of tinkering" I should have specified it as "I am tired of tinkering on things I don't find fun to tinker with" like DPI and drivers on Linux. I'd rather tinker with Haskell or my job without the OS getting in my way.
MacOS seems to be a great compromise between the two. HiDPI macs look great and I can tinker on choice.
I don't tinker. I just run Linux.
On Windows, I find the tinkering insufferable. No, windows, I don't want you to track me. New update? Do it all over again. Advertisements in the start menu? Ever update I have to disable that. Every time I try and fix something broken, Windows forces me to redo it again and again.
On Windows, I find the tinkering insufferable. No, windows, I don't want you to track me. New update? Do it all over again. Advertisements in the start menu? Ever update I have to disable that. Every time I try and fix something broken, Windows forces me to redo it again and again.
On Windows 3 I had a custom-built VGA.DRV with my own bitmaps in the widgets.
These days I don't bother to change Ubuntu's background.
I use the computer to get my work (and my hobbies) done. As Stephen Fry would say, I don't use a computer in order to use a computer.
These days I don't bother to change Ubuntu's background.
I use the computer to get my work (and my hobbies) done. As Stephen Fry would say, I don't use a computer in order to use a computer.
I’m a lot older then you but my experience was similar, I went from Windows versions upto 7 to Linux for about 5 years then to mac (Because it just works), I can’t spend my day figuring out why my Linux device didn’t boot.
Then I got a bit sick of Apple, So I tried installing Linux on my macbook. Some things didn’t work like randomly opening the laptop and nothing appears on the screen.
It was ok, but I missed critical apps like, iTerm2, Tableplus, Nice email client like Mac Mail etc. (Today might be different to when I tried this 3 years ago)
Then WSL 1 came out and I thought i’ll try windows again, purchased a surface, but the UNIX features just wasn’t compatible with what I needed.
In the end I purchased a new Macbook Pro again.
WSL 2 might change things and I might end up back on Windows one day, but I really wish I could simply just use a Linux distro as a desktop daily driver, that’s my ultimate desire.
For now I use a Mac. For two reasons, It 99% of the time just works and great app support and it’s unix subsystem.
Then I got a bit sick of Apple, So I tried installing Linux on my macbook. Some things didn’t work like randomly opening the laptop and nothing appears on the screen.
It was ok, but I missed critical apps like, iTerm2, Tableplus, Nice email client like Mac Mail etc. (Today might be different to when I tried this 3 years ago)
Then WSL 1 came out and I thought i’ll try windows again, purchased a surface, but the UNIX features just wasn’t compatible with what I needed.
In the end I purchased a new Macbook Pro again.
WSL 2 might change things and I might end up back on Windows one day, but I really wish I could simply just use a Linux distro as a desktop daily driver, that’s my ultimate desire.
For now I use a Mac. For two reasons, It 99% of the time just works and great app support and it’s unix subsystem.
Same here. I used Linux for 10+ years, then at one point, copy/paste between browser and terminal stopped working. I got mad at that shit (yes, also constant tinkering, subpar drivers, etc.) and installed windows, never looked back.
And yes, font rendering is horrible. I went out of my way to find bitmapped fonts for coding. And yes, trying to get audio mixing to work on Linux was just a waste of time.
My Win10 machine runs rock-solid, when I'm done for the day I put it to sleep, and resume my session the next day in under 10 seconds. Like 90% of my reboots (and it's like WEEKS in between) are due to updates.
And yes, font rendering is horrible. I went out of my way to find bitmapped fonts for coding. And yes, trying to get audio mixing to work on Linux was just a waste of time.
My Win10 machine runs rock-solid, when I'm done for the day I put it to sleep, and resume my session the next day in under 10 seconds. Like 90% of my reboots (and it's like WEEKS in between) are due to updates.
Can you expand on the driver problems you had? I keep reading this here but people never give actual examples.
First and foremost, sound. I tried to get mixing -- simultaneous playback from different programs -- to work, spent like half an hour on trying to figure out and gave up. On Windows, it works out of the box, so half an hour was more than generous allotment of time.
Next, sleep / resume. Has never worked for me on Linux; at the work place where I used Linux, I just let the machine run overnight. That would be a no-go at home, as I sleep in the same room.
When I got a new machine, I installed Linux only to check that the HW was working and to download Win installation. The kernel had only experimental support for the chipset and integrated graphics (Intel, Skylake just about came out). I had to enable it with boot switches, after which I was able to start GUI (X). However, the GUI randomly and completely froze the machine, a hard reset was required.
I also think that audio mixing didn't work out of the box.
I also tried copy/paste for the fun of it, it did work this time, but only if I managed to guess the "correct" clipboard.
Thanks, but no thanks. $100-ish license that I paid for Windows Professional has paid itself out immensely with things that "just work" out of the box. My time is worth way more than $100.
Next, sleep / resume. Has never worked for me on Linux; at the work place where I used Linux, I just let the machine run overnight. That would be a no-go at home, as I sleep in the same room.
When I got a new machine, I installed Linux only to check that the HW was working and to download Win installation. The kernel had only experimental support for the chipset and integrated graphics (Intel, Skylake just about came out). I had to enable it with boot switches, after which I was able to start GUI (X). However, the GUI randomly and completely froze the machine, a hard reset was required.
I also think that audio mixing didn't work out of the box.
I also tried copy/paste for the fun of it, it did work this time, but only if I managed to guess the "correct" clipboard.
Thanks, but no thanks. $100-ish license that I paid for Windows Professional has paid itself out immensely with things that "just work" out of the box. My time is worth way more than $100.
> Skylake
From this I gather that we are talking ~5 years ago?
> First and foremost, sound. I tried to get mixing -- simultaneous playback from different programs
I remember this being a problem 10 years ago, but not since pulseaudio.
> sleep / resume
I successfully use systemctl suspend a lot. But yeah, depends on the hardware, def. a pain point.
> experimental support for the chipset [...] completely froze
Not sure what to respond to this. Experimental drivers are expected to be, well, experimental, as in highly unstable.
> clipboard
Ok.
Thanks for the info, this will be helpful to know what to look out for when getting New hardware.
From this I gather that we are talking ~5 years ago?
> First and foremost, sound. I tried to get mixing -- simultaneous playback from different programs
I remember this being a problem 10 years ago, but not since pulseaudio.
> sleep / resume
I successfully use systemctl suspend a lot. But yeah, depends on the hardware, def. a pain point.
> experimental support for the chipset [...] completely froze
Not sure what to respond to this. Experimental drivers are expected to be, well, experimental, as in highly unstable.
> clipboard
Ok.
Thanks for the info, this will be helpful to know what to look out for when getting New hardware.
> Not sure what to respond to this. Experimental drivers are expected to be, well, experimental, as in highly unstable.
This is what to make of this: The then-latest linux kernel did not support then-latest hardware.
This is what to make of this: The then-latest linux kernel did not support then-latest hardware.
Thank you for the response. this helped me understand better how people come to conclusions like this.
You want to be able to buy bleeding edge hardware without checking for driver support and have it just work. That is important enough for you to prefer windows for this reason. Fair enough.
Something to think about: What do you think causes this situation that on day one windows has a stable driver and Linux doesn't? Could it have anything to do with the cooperation of the hardware vendor?
Assuming you actually wanted to run linux, would there be any way you as an end user could work around this problem? Is there anything people could do to improve the overall situation? Maybe something more helpful than puplicly complaining about experimental drivers being experimental?
It's ok if you don't care about this. But characterizing the story above as "linux has driver problems" strikes me as something between superficial and disengenious.
But yeah, you can't always blindly throw the newest Linux at the newest hardware and expect it to work. Free Software requires a a certain amount of taking responsibility for your own computing.
You want to be able to buy bleeding edge hardware without checking for driver support and have it just work. That is important enough for you to prefer windows for this reason. Fair enough.
Something to think about: What do you think causes this situation that on day one windows has a stable driver and Linux doesn't? Could it have anything to do with the cooperation of the hardware vendor?
Assuming you actually wanted to run linux, would there be any way you as an end user could work around this problem? Is there anything people could do to improve the overall situation? Maybe something more helpful than puplicly complaining about experimental drivers being experimental?
It's ok if you don't care about this. But characterizing the story above as "linux has driver problems" strikes me as something between superficial and disengenious.
But yeah, you can't always blindly throw the newest Linux at the newest hardware and expect it to work. Free Software requires a a certain amount of taking responsibility for your own computing.
> how people come to conclusions like this
Conclusions like what? That the then-latest linux did not support the then-latest HW is not a conclusion, but a _fact_.
> But characterizing the story above as "linux has driver problems" strikes me as something between superficial and disengenious.
It's disingenious to push back the problem onto the end-user. The "linux community" wants people to use Linux, so it's THEIR responsibility to make it work for the end-user. I don't care about the underlying reasons WHY it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
> But yeah, you can't always blindly throw the newest Linux at the newest hardware and expect it to work.
Well, the CPU + motherboard combo was straight recommended by Intel, and, at that time, I don't think there were any chipsets "supported" by Linux AND the CPU anyway. Should I have bought older-gen HW just to run Linux? Forget it.
> Free Software requires a a certain amount of taking responsibility for your own computing.
Indeed. Free Software is free only if your time is worth nothing. Thanks but no thanks.
Conclusions like what? That the then-latest linux did not support the then-latest HW is not a conclusion, but a _fact_.
> But characterizing the story above as "linux has driver problems" strikes me as something between superficial and disengenious.
It's disingenious to push back the problem onto the end-user. The "linux community" wants people to use Linux, so it's THEIR responsibility to make it work for the end-user. I don't care about the underlying reasons WHY it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
> But yeah, you can't always blindly throw the newest Linux at the newest hardware and expect it to work.
Well, the CPU + motherboard combo was straight recommended by Intel, and, at that time, I don't think there were any chipsets "supported" by Linux AND the CPU anyway. Should I have bought older-gen HW just to run Linux? Forget it.
> Free Software requires a a certain amount of taking responsibility for your own computing.
Indeed. Free Software is free only if your time is worth nothing. Thanks but no thanks.
If only you could see how entitled and childish you sound.
But I agree: with that mentality, please stay away from any free (as in freedom) software. Please continue paying MS to deal with you and your attitude. Nobody cares if YOU use linux, certainly not the community.
But I agree: with that mentality, please stay away from any free (as in freedom) software. Please continue paying MS to deal with you and your attitude. Nobody cares if YOU use linux, certainly not the community.
You know, I feel myself more "free" when using MS products then when I use Linux.
Another example. Laptop SP513-52N-59M4, Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. Non-operational driver for USB fingerprint sensor ID 04f3:0c03 (ELAN). "Device disconnected" error when trying to add a fingerprint.
Probably not a driver problem, but screen tearing while playing youtube videos is annoying.
Probably not a driver problem, but screen tearing while playing youtube videos is annoying.
And now we have WSL2 which is quite good in that regard too.
I love being on Linux but I am sick of tinkering too. I make music and game on Windows and Dev on WSL2 with X11 forwarding to desktop, which is flawless.
I love being on Linux but I am sick of tinkering too. I make music and game on Windows and Dev on WSL2 with X11 forwarding to desktop, which is flawless.
WSL, even WSL2, has always been much slower in my experience.
I've been using linux since 95, both doing kernel dev and using as desktop. At some point around windows 8 i decided to give windows a try, and purely use windows 10 now and love it for many of the same reasons you mentioned. To me OS wars are over, if someone prefers linux desktop more power to them, but for me anymore I feel like I want technology out of the way as much as possible, and I feel like windows 10 desktop does that for me.
Technology out of the way, advertisements in the menus, right?
I’m so tired of reading this same comment over and over every time someone on HN dares to say they prefer Windows. As if it obviates all of their other points. Also, you turn it off once after install and that’s it.
The fact that there are ads on by default, in an OS that you PAID for, is really so laughable.
There is so much cognitive dissonance in the typical windows users minds. You'd think the average person would not PAY to have LESS control over their own machines. But I guess that microsoft PR has got you all by the balls.
There is so much cognitive dissonance in the typical windows users minds. You'd think the average person would not PAY to have LESS control over their own machines. But I guess that microsoft PR has got you all by the balls.
This might have reasons:
* As far as I remember, start menu ads were premiered by ubuntu [1]
* They might not have "bought" windows 10 at all or at least don't feel like they did: a free upgrade from 7/8, a campus license from their university, "included" in the computer they bought
Many of the advantages and disadvantages of various OS come down to personal taste and willingness to deal with them. There's no need to belittle either side.
[Dual payment systems are not new either: Ads and payments at the same time allow you to keep the cost lower (or increase your profit if you want to formulate it more cyncically).]
[1] https://www.howtogeek.com/126995/how-to-disable-the-amazon-s...
* As far as I remember, start menu ads were premiered by ubuntu [1]
* They might not have "bought" windows 10 at all or at least don't feel like they did: a free upgrade from 7/8, a campus license from their university, "included" in the computer they bought
Many of the advantages and disadvantages of various OS come down to personal taste and willingness to deal with them. There's no need to belittle either side.
[Dual payment systems are not new either: Ads and payments at the same time allow you to keep the cost lower (or increase your profit if you want to formulate it more cyncically).]
[1] https://www.howtogeek.com/126995/how-to-disable-the-amazon-s...
> As far as I remember, start menu ads were premiered by ubuntu
And that's just as abhorrent as when Windows does it. Luckily there are lots of other distros.
> a free upgrade from 7/8
Microsoft forced that on a lot of people too, so it's not the users fault for "not paying"
> a campus license from their university, "included" in the computer they bought
Someone still payed for that, whether it is the OEM or the university. It still doesn't excuse the practice.
> Many of the advantages and disadvantages of various OS come down to personal taste and willingness to deal with them. There's no need to belittle either side.
I agree for the most part. If you have to use windows or MacOS because it is the only OS that some specific software is compiled for, and you need the software, then I don't blame you for using the OS. But really it's the software developer's fault for not releasing on all common platforms that brought the limitation in the first place.
But I'm sorry I am going to belittle people who defend dual payment systems as you call them. That is just pure greed.
And that's just as abhorrent as when Windows does it. Luckily there are lots of other distros.
> a free upgrade from 7/8
Microsoft forced that on a lot of people too, so it's not the users fault for "not paying"
> a campus license from their university, "included" in the computer they bought
Someone still payed for that, whether it is the OEM or the university. It still doesn't excuse the practice.
> Many of the advantages and disadvantages of various OS come down to personal taste and willingness to deal with them. There's no need to belittle either side.
I agree for the most part. If you have to use windows or MacOS because it is the only OS that some specific software is compiled for, and you need the software, then I don't blame you for using the OS. But really it's the software developer's fault for not releasing on all common platforms that brought the limitation in the first place.
But I'm sorry I am going to belittle people who defend dual payment systems as you call them. That is just pure greed.
i don't expect this to win you back, but i can't recommend this highly enough:
http://www.webupd8.org/2013/06/better-font-rendering-in-linu...
you can choose between different system font rendering styles, including macos and windows
http://www.webupd8.org/2013/06/better-font-rendering-in-linu...
you can choose between different system font rendering styles, including macos and windows
infinality is long dead and its rendering engine has been upstreamed to freetype. here's a more up-to-date guide to font rendering on linux: https://pandasauce.org/post/linux-fonts/
news to me! thank you
I did use Infinality on Arch circa 2015 to 2017. It was pretty good. Then it stopped working.
Microsoft is doing what Linux claims to be faster and more aggressively than ever before. If you couldn't beat windows 7, the OS that ran for decade with no major upgrades to functionality, at the desktop game how are you going to beat an OS that changes faster than we can keep up as admins?
We all cried in 2016, 17, 18 when ms was patching too fast, releasing too fast, now they are steady pushing a semi-annual build with little problems. There will no windows 11 and because Linux is OOS, with no central model for support, Microsoft will continue to dominate the desktop space. It's just Windows now, not ubuntu, arch, mint, red hat, deb, gnu.
3 main gripes:
Cost - sure? MS doesn't really make money here it wouldn't cost much to ship windows to the planet for free. Forced updates - again 3 years ago yes big problem, last year still killing my nic drivers, future 3-5 years? Unlikely that we will even notice them, we are down to a monthly reboot.
Telemetry - not going away.
We all cried in 2016, 17, 18 when ms was patching too fast, releasing too fast, now they are steady pushing a semi-annual build with little problems. There will no windows 11 and because Linux is OOS, with no central model for support, Microsoft will continue to dominate the desktop space. It's just Windows now, not ubuntu, arch, mint, red hat, deb, gnu.
3 main gripes:
Cost - sure? MS doesn't really make money here it wouldn't cost much to ship windows to the planet for free. Forced updates - again 3 years ago yes big problem, last year still killing my nic drivers, future 3-5 years? Unlikely that we will even notice them, we are down to a monthly reboot.
Telemetry - not going away.
> Microsoft’s “More Personal Computing” Division, which includes Windows, Xbox, Surface and related businesses, rose in the holiday quarter to $13.2 billion in revenue, up from just under $13 billion a year ago, reclaiming the title of the company’s largest division, at least for the moment.
https://threatpost.com/google-yanks-106-malicious-chrome-ext...
https://threatpost.com/google-yanks-106-malicious-chrome-ext...
Whilst the OP is after ostensibly practical examples, I would add something I haven't yet seen mentioned and that is education. If you are wanting to learn more about computing and how operating systems work, Linux is excellent at giving you this opportunity. It actually takes one of it's weaknesses and turns it into one of it's biggest strengths. Because you often need to tinker a bit with scripts and problem-solving in order to get certain things working the way you want, you learn a lot.
For example, when I was into gaming in my younger years I was lucky to have access to a family computer rather than a gaming console. Because of this, I gained experience tinkering with config.sys and autoexec.bat in order to make my games run on limited memory, and later, learning how to add hardware like 3D accelerators for faster performance. If I had been stuck with a static console without any room for modification, I may have taken a less interesting career path as a result. I feel a similar lamentation when seeing kids with iPads, but feel hope when I see them tinkering with Minecraft :)
For example, when I was into gaming in my younger years I was lucky to have access to a family computer rather than a gaming console. Because of this, I gained experience tinkering with config.sys and autoexec.bat in order to make my games run on limited memory, and later, learning how to add hardware like 3D accelerators for faster performance. If I had been stuck with a static console without any room for modification, I may have taken a less interesting career path as a result. I feel a similar lamentation when seeing kids with iPads, but feel hope when I see them tinkering with Minecraft :)
It's worth noting that these days you can move Windows installs across hardware/VMs and fix issues from a live image.
I'm a longtime Linux user and every time I have to do this on Windows I find the documentation poor, but it is possible to do things like load kernel modules (drivers), partition a drive, format a new NTFS filesystem, copy all the files over preserving special filesystem features, reinstall the bootloader, add required additional drivers, ensure the drive assignments are correct, etc. all from a command line prompt which you can pull up from the Windows 10 installer image. The process ends up being very similar to doing the same thing on Linux at a high level, just with different tools.
What Windows needs in this regard is something like the Arch Linux wiki.
Just in case it's useful to someone, here are some pointers:
To add critical (e.g. storage) drivers to a mounted Windows install (or image file within installers): dism
To modprobe a driver within the live environment: drvload
To rsync files over to a new filesystem preserving (almost?) all critical metadata: robocopy (use the latest Windows 10, older versions had trouble with stuff like directory junctions and symlinks; read the manual carefully to figure out what options to use)
To fix drive assignments (i.e. fstab): you actually just pull up regedit and edit the registry directly; you copy the (binary) drive ID info from the live instance, mount the registry hive of the target, and paste it there (this isn't really morally different from running blkid and then editing fstab by hand to paste a UUID). Search terms: MountedDevices and DosDevices.
Fix the bootloader: bootrec is the top level "fix stuff automatically" tool, kind of like grub-install and grub-mkconfig. However, you may have to delete your BCD (grub.conf) first so bootrec can make it fresh, as it often won't fix existing bootloader entries with a problem. bcdboot and bcdedit are the lower level tools.
I'm a longtime Linux user and every time I have to do this on Windows I find the documentation poor, but it is possible to do things like load kernel modules (drivers), partition a drive, format a new NTFS filesystem, copy all the files over preserving special filesystem features, reinstall the bootloader, add required additional drivers, ensure the drive assignments are correct, etc. all from a command line prompt which you can pull up from the Windows 10 installer image. The process ends up being very similar to doing the same thing on Linux at a high level, just with different tools.
What Windows needs in this regard is something like the Arch Linux wiki.
Just in case it's useful to someone, here are some pointers:
To add critical (e.g. storage) drivers to a mounted Windows install (or image file within installers): dism
To modprobe a driver within the live environment: drvload
To rsync files over to a new filesystem preserving (almost?) all critical metadata: robocopy (use the latest Windows 10, older versions had trouble with stuff like directory junctions and symlinks; read the manual carefully to figure out what options to use)
To fix drive assignments (i.e. fstab): you actually just pull up regedit and edit the registry directly; you copy the (binary) drive ID info from the live instance, mount the registry hive of the target, and paste it there (this isn't really morally different from running blkid and then editing fstab by hand to paste a UUID). Search terms: MountedDevices and DosDevices.
Fix the bootloader: bootrec is the top level "fix stuff automatically" tool, kind of like grub-install and grub-mkconfig. However, you may have to delete your BCD (grub.conf) first so bootrec can make it fresh, as it often won't fix existing bootloader entries with a problem. bcdboot and bcdedit are the lower level tools.
That's quite interesting, do you mind if I update the article and cite you as a source? (OP here.)
One a Linux LiveCD, I've sometimes connected to the internet and installed non-default packages; is something analogous possible with Windows 10 installer image, or is it only the tools that come on the disc?
One a Linux LiveCD, I've sometimes connected to the internet and installed non-default packages; is something analogous possible with Windows 10 installer image, or is it only the tools that come on the disc?
I'm not sure I'll ever need this but this is really useful for the times I get stuck in a situation. Thanks for writing this.
I bet we couldn't find this information consolidated in a single place anywhere on the internet.
This would also be useful as a blog post (if you have one and have the time).
Thanks again!
I bet we couldn't find this information consolidated in a single place anywhere on the internet.
This would also be useful as a blog post (if you have one and have the time).
Thanks again!
Hah, indeed. I had to build a custom Windows install image, so I had to learn about DISM and other stuff. Everything is documented, but rather badly organized.
Does it have to be better, or even preferable? Is "it's sufficiently good for my needs but it's free" not enough?
Whole industries have died because a free product has emerged that's "good enough" for 90+% of people. When was the last time anybody bought the electronic Encyclopedia Brittanica now we have Wikipedia?
Whole industries have died because a free product has emerged that's "good enough" for 90+% of people. When was the last time anybody bought the electronic Encyclopedia Brittanica now we have Wikipedia?
Linux would have to be extremely good for most people to take the effort to switch. Switching to Wikipedia doesn't require reformatting your hard drive and installing a new operating system—a completely foreign concept for 98% of the computer-using population.
Reformatting your hard drive and installing a new operating system is just the beginning of it.
Such a drastic change of OS basically disrupts your whole workflow while you get used to the new one. Everything from where to find things to keyboard shortcuts to UX paradigms.
Such a drastic change of OS basically disrupts your whole workflow while you get used to the new one. Everything from where to find things to keyboard shortcuts to UX paradigms.
I would argue that the change from Win10 to a KDE linux or a similar windows-like UX is similar to a change from Win7 to Win10.
Its fair to say that even the Win7 to Win10 switch is something people only do if you force them, but I could see the Win10->Linux change happen for a lot of people if they saw anything it had that they needed.
Not having to worry about AV and automatic updates, automatic download and in-OS-ads would be pretty huge already.
Yes, most powerusers on windows know where to turn all that off, but a lot of people, like my parents, are scared to fuck something up, so they dont touch any settings, especially not if windows tells them "this improves your experience, you sure you wanna turn it off? nudge".
A lot of people would not notice or care if you switched their machine to Linux - as long as it means they have to worry about less.
Its fair to say that even the Win7 to Win10 switch is something people only do if you force them, but I could see the Win10->Linux change happen for a lot of people if they saw anything it had that they needed.
Not having to worry about AV and automatic updates, automatic download and in-OS-ads would be pretty huge already.
Yes, most powerusers on windows know where to turn all that off, but a lot of people, like my parents, are scared to fuck something up, so they dont touch any settings, especially not if windows tells them "this improves your experience, you sure you wanna turn it off? nudge".
A lot of people would not notice or care if you switched their machine to Linux - as long as it means they have to worry about less.
You can run Linux from USB stick. That still requires BIOS/UEFI setup, though I do not expect non-technical population switching.
It would be great if Steam had non game applications.
It would be great if Steam had non game applications.
You should be able to install most distros alongside windows without any extra work, just in the installer. UEFI+GPT boot is an option, and that never required me to fuck with the uefi setup, it just installed itself into the EFI partition together with windows's stuff, and you could pick in GRUB "windows" or "linux" :)
Steam has that.
Strangely I stumbled across an article today on the online Encyclopedia Brittanica which didn’t have an equivalent on Wikipedia. I wonder if anyone has ever done a comparison to find all the article on one but not the other.
Just out of curiosity, what was the article?
This sounds like a cool project, git diff for encyclopedic knowledge
Perhaps, but there are lock-in effects preventing the encyclopedia situation from occurring.
When tax dollars are still being shuttled to the deep pockets of MS and Oracle, a more proactive stance is needed.
When tax dollars are still being shuttled to the deep pockets of MS and Oracle, a more proactive stance is needed.
Here is a website with opposite arguments (against Linux on the desktop specifically)
https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.t...
In the end you have strong arguments both ways. I personally use both on a daily basis. Generally that's Linux for work (coding, mostly) and Windows for fun (games and media).
https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.t...
In the end you have strong arguments both ways. I personally use both on a daily basis. Generally that's Linux for work (coding, mostly) and Windows for fun (games and media).
He also has an article on Win 10, both are quite a good read in my opinion.
https://itvision.altervista.org/why-windows-10-sucks.html
https://itvision.altervista.org/why-windows-10-sucks.html
Interestingly, for me it's exactly the opposite, I use Windows at work and linux for not at work.
Lost me at Windows being harder to debug.
For me the greatest thing about Linux is that I am not at the whims of Microsoft or Apple about when they decide to change the UI. I have been using XFCE for years and it is basically the same as fifteen years ago.
If I want to change something, I can do it fairly easily, like add a dock or even change Window managers. I don't have to do things the Microsoft way or the Apple way...if I don't like something I can just change it.
If I want to change something, I can do it fairly easily, like add a dock or even change Window managers. I don't have to do things the Microsoft way or the Apple way...if I don't like something I can just change it.
The list is so convoluted while it doesn't touch on real Windows issues at all. Wow. And it often talks about issues which have been resolved, or haven't been relevant in ages, or are not a concern for most people out there.
https://itvision.altervista.org/why-windows-10-sucks.html
And some things from it are outright cringe-worthy, e.g. "Ineffectual read-only permissions semantics". Windows ACL for files/directories is 100 more powerful than what Linux offers.
Some Windows advantages are shown as shortcomings, e.g. case-insensitive filenames vs. case-sensitivity in Linux which in absolute most times just leads to confusion. In my 20+ years of using Linux I haven't found a single usecase for case sensitivity.
https://itvision.altervista.org/why-windows-10-sucks.html
And some things from it are outright cringe-worthy, e.g. "Ineffectual read-only permissions semantics". Windows ACL for files/directories is 100 more powerful than what Linux offers.
Some Windows advantages are shown as shortcomings, e.g. case-insensitive filenames vs. case-sensitivity in Linux which in absolute most times just leads to confusion. In my 20+ years of using Linux I haven't found a single usecase for case sensitivity.
I spent roughly 1999-2015 trying mightily to get off Windows and become Linux only. I finally decided that the Linux desktop was never going to solve its feature and compatibility shortcomings to make that possible. I much prefer Linux as a development environment, but for anything related to office productivity, compatibility issues force me to be on Windows so much that it's not worth the effort to switch to Linux for the few things that I could do there. I could rant about lost opportunities, but that's already been done many times by others.
I think switching to linux will become easier going forward simply because developers are embracing web technologies and developing their apps as a webapp and/or electron apps. Sure it's not ideal but makes switching os trivial because most of your "apps" are available via a web browser or as an electron app. Many orgs are migrating to google apps or office 365 online and do their document editing online these days. Can't have office version compatibility issue if all your docs are in google apps.
I found my peak of productivity with WSL2 and an Arch Linux VM. Truly the best of both worlds.
Office productivity is now in the cloud.
None of these reasons have anything to do with user experience -- no wonder none of these reasons have earned Linux any market share outside of picky developers.
* Astronomically lower probability of catching a virus.
* No bullshit forced updates when the OS feels like it.
* No phoning home with you being unable to launch an app when your manufacturer's server is slow.
* No shuffling about trying to install drivers for a thousand components before your computer is usable.
How's that?
* No bullshit forced updates when the OS feels like it.
* No phoning home with you being unable to launch an app when your manufacturer's server is slow.
* No shuffling about trying to install drivers for a thousand components before your computer is usable.
How's that?
> Astronomically lower probability of catching a virus.
Correct, but when was the last time you got a virus on Windows? (Obviously it's different for Regular Joe User, I'm talking about the HN audience).
> No bullshit forced updates when the OS feels like it.
In practice, my Windows install always updates in the middle of the night when I'm not using it. It closes all of my apps and only reopens the web browser. But, it's not so bad. It doesn't bother me. I can however see how it might annoy some people. But I think the effects of this are exaggerated.
> No phoning home with you being unable to launch an app when your manufacturer's server is slow.
Windows phones home, but to be fair, this post is about Linux vs Windows, and being unable to launch an app is a MacOS problem, not Windows.
> No shuffling about trying to install drivers for a thousand components before your computer is usable.
This is true in some situations. For instance, if you install Windows from scratch you'll have to wait while it downloads drivers. More of an automated process, no shuffling about. The alternative on Linux is to roll the dice and hope your drivers are baked into the kernel, if not you're back to (very manual) shuffling about.
Correct, but when was the last time you got a virus on Windows? (Obviously it's different for Regular Joe User, I'm talking about the HN audience).
> No bullshit forced updates when the OS feels like it.
In practice, my Windows install always updates in the middle of the night when I'm not using it. It closes all of my apps and only reopens the web browser. But, it's not so bad. It doesn't bother me. I can however see how it might annoy some people. But I think the effects of this are exaggerated.
> No phoning home with you being unable to launch an app when your manufacturer's server is slow.
Windows phones home, but to be fair, this post is about Linux vs Windows, and being unable to launch an app is a MacOS problem, not Windows.
> No shuffling about trying to install drivers for a thousand components before your computer is usable.
This is true in some situations. For instance, if you install Windows from scratch you'll have to wait while it downloads drivers. More of an automated process, no shuffling about. The alternative on Linux is to roll the dice and hope your drivers are baked into the kernel, if not you're back to (very manual) shuffling about.
> In practice, my Windows install always updates in the middle of the night when I'm not using it. It closes all of my apps and only reopens the web browser. But, it's not so bad. It doesn't bother me. I can however see how it might annoy some people. But I think the effects of this are exaggerated.
Apple has definitely figured out the "reopen apps when you reboot your computer" feature. I wonder why it's taken Microsoft so long to do the same.
Apple has definitely figured out the "reopen apps when you reboot your computer" feature. I wonder why it's taken Microsoft so long to do the same.
Even if Microsoft were to provide some special API for this, tons of legacy programs won't be using it, and most new ones will also ignore it.
Under Microsoft Windows, application installers can register some handler to run on startup, and can implement this themselves: the program can check whether an instance of the program was interrupted by reboot, and if so, start it up in a special way whereby it is told to recover the state from the most recently saved parameters. Those could include volatile state like position of windows, object selections and whatever.
There is really nothing for Microsoft to do there other than maybe lead by example; implement some sort of best practice in a few notable Microsoft programs, document the practice and encourage developers to do same.
Under Microsoft Windows, application installers can register some handler to run on startup, and can implement this themselves: the program can check whether an instance of the program was interrupted by reboot, and if so, start it up in a special way whereby it is told to recover the state from the most recently saved parameters. Those could include volatile state like position of windows, object selections and whatever.
There is really nothing for Microsoft to do there other than maybe lead by example; implement some sort of best practice in a few notable Microsoft programs, document the practice and encourage developers to do same.
> Astronomically lower probability of catching a virus.
Yes because nobody uses consumer desktop Linux. With higher market share the malware will come.
> No bullshit forced updates when the OS feels like it.
True, but that also means you're going to end up with a lot more botnet nodes out there because people will never update. Or they'll never update and still complain things are not working.
> No phoning home with you being unable to launch an app when your manufacturer's server is slow.
I hear you, but this doesn't happen enough for anybody to care. People would be more fet up by Facebook downtime.
> No shuffling about trying to install drivers for a thousand components before your computer is usable.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Linux drivers still can require endless faffing about. The biggie is that distros won't distribute nonfree drivers by default, for ideological reasons. The average person doesn't understand that they need to go enable some repo in their package manager, only that their machine isn't working.
Yes because nobody uses consumer desktop Linux. With higher market share the malware will come.
> No bullshit forced updates when the OS feels like it.
True, but that also means you're going to end up with a lot more botnet nodes out there because people will never update. Or they'll never update and still complain things are not working.
> No phoning home with you being unable to launch an app when your manufacturer's server is slow.
I hear you, but this doesn't happen enough for anybody to care. People would be more fet up by Facebook downtime.
> No shuffling about trying to install drivers for a thousand components before your computer is usable.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Linux drivers still can require endless faffing about. The biggie is that distros won't distribute nonfree drivers by default, for ideological reasons. The average person doesn't understand that they need to go enable some repo in their package manager, only that their machine isn't working.
> True, but that also means you're going to end up with a lot more botnet nodes out there because people will never update. Or they'll never update and still complain things are not working.
Or people update when it's convenient for them vs when it's convenient for the OS.
Or people update when it's convenient for them vs when it's convenient for the OS.
...which is nice from a user control perspective, but completely ignores gp's argument. You can either have user control or everyone up to date. You can't have both.
> > Astronomically lower probability of catching a virus.
> Yes because nobody uses consumer desktop Linux. With higher market share the malware will come.
Linux has a higher server market share already, and its virus problem there is still not as bad as Windows'.
> > No bullshit forced updates when the OS feels like it.
> True, but that also means you're going to end up with a lot more botnet nodes out there because people will never update. Or they'll never update and still complain things are not working.
Today, Windows has forced updates and Linux doesn't, and Windows hosts are more likely to be part of a botnet than Linux hosts.
> distros won't distribute nonfree drivers by default, for ideological reasons.
True but misleading. For example, Ubuntu doesn't install nonfree drivers by default, but all you have to do to install them is check the checkbox when the installer asks you. Way easier than dealing with drivers on Windows.
> Yes because nobody uses consumer desktop Linux. With higher market share the malware will come.
Linux has a higher server market share already, and its virus problem there is still not as bad as Windows'.
> > No bullshit forced updates when the OS feels like it.
> True, but that also means you're going to end up with a lot more botnet nodes out there because people will never update. Or they'll never update and still complain things are not working.
Today, Windows has forced updates and Linux doesn't, and Windows hosts are more likely to be part of a botnet than Linux hosts.
> distros won't distribute nonfree drivers by default, for ideological reasons.
True but misleading. For example, Ubuntu doesn't install nonfree drivers by default, but all you have to do to install them is check the checkbox when the installer asks you. Way easier than dealing with drivers on Windows.
> Linux has a higher server market share already, and its virus problem there is still not as bad as Windows'.
Server use cases are vastly different than Desktop use cases. I have administered a lot of Windows servers in my time and not a one of them has ever had a virus. Workstations on the other hand...
Server use cases are vastly different than Desktop use cases. I have administered a lot of Windows servers in my time and not a one of them has ever had a virus. Workstations on the other hand...
Missing out on those botnet news?
1. There are nearly a million Linux gamers on Steam alone.
https://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?module=steam_linux_s...
In fact, the latest versions of Proton are so good, the only games I haven't been able to get to work with regularity are the ones that require EA Origin, and honestly, I've had similar problems on Windows. In fact, sometimes the Proton version of the game works better than the Linux binary. So, if gaming is holding people up from switching (which is a common excuse), that's not as much an obstacle these days.
2. Any time there is an update, it's an opportunity for something to break. If a user has no choice when a computer updates, they risk interrupting important, time-sensitive work. So, a user must ask themselves, are they more worried about their machine possibly used in a botnet, or are they more worried about it rebooting right in the middle of a meeting or video call? Or taking 20-30 minutes to update after an unexpected reboot, such as a power failure? I would rather have the choice, and deal with problems caused by updates only I want to, when I have the time. Also, many zero-days are for software that's over a year old. As long as a user has done an update in the past year, which is a reasonable expectation, the risk of compromised security is much lower.
3. Facebook downtime and the incapability to launch any third-party application at all are two very different problems. Further, Gatekeeper is not the only source is potential problems. Windows Defender has been known to quarantine DLLs and executables that are perfectly harmless, but fixing problems caused by an overzealous update to (and application of) Windows Defender definitions is often beyond the capabilities of the average user.
4. The Linux kernel absolutely supports non-free drivers. Inclusion of non-free driver "blobs" is a common argument.
In fact, I would like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as "ideological Linux", is, in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux...
In fact, the latest versions of Proton are so good, the only games I haven't been able to get to work with regularity are the ones that require EA Origin, and honestly, I've had similar problems on Windows. In fact, sometimes the Proton version of the game works better than the Linux binary. So, if gaming is holding people up from switching (which is a common excuse), that's not as much an obstacle these days.
2. Any time there is an update, it's an opportunity for something to break. If a user has no choice when a computer updates, they risk interrupting important, time-sensitive work. So, a user must ask themselves, are they more worried about their machine possibly used in a botnet, or are they more worried about it rebooting right in the middle of a meeting or video call? Or taking 20-30 minutes to update after an unexpected reboot, such as a power failure? I would rather have the choice, and deal with problems caused by updates only I want to, when I have the time. Also, many zero-days are for software that's over a year old. As long as a user has done an update in the past year, which is a reasonable expectation, the risk of compromised security is much lower.
3. Facebook downtime and the incapability to launch any third-party application at all are two very different problems. Further, Gatekeeper is not the only source is potential problems. Windows Defender has been known to quarantine DLLs and executables that are perfectly harmless, but fixing problems caused by an overzealous update to (and application of) Windows Defender definitions is often beyond the capabilities of the average user.
4. The Linux kernel absolutely supports non-free drivers. Inclusion of non-free driver "blobs" is a common argument.
In fact, I would like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as "ideological Linux", is, in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux...
>"The Linux kernel absolutely supports non-free drivers. Inclusion of non-free driver "blobs" is a common argument."
Linux kernel has no stable ABI for drivers as a matter of ideology / strategy, we can debate it's merits but you certainky can't claim it suppports them.
Linux kernel has no stable ABI for drivers as a matter of ideology / strategy, we can debate it's merits but you certainky can't claim it suppports them.
And when there is no driver available the only option you have is to buy a new device. None of my 4(4!) Sound devices work with a current linux distribution. Not the Realtek Chip on my x570 board, not my logitech webcam, not the speakers in my monitor via hdmi and not my USB Sound Card from Creative.
Not even the onboard Realtek Lan controller works, i had to buy a usb one.
Oh and, i had to plug the cord from all sound devices after a reboot into Windows, because none worked anymore.
This situation is even worse than in the late nineties/early 2000 ish.
Not even the onboard Realtek Lan controller works, i had to buy a usb one.
Oh and, i had to plug the cord from all sound devices after a reboot into Windows, because none worked anymore.
This situation is even worse than in the late nineties/early 2000 ish.
Really? My monitor via HDMI works fine, my Sound Blaster works, my onboard card works, my camera's microphone works. Odd that you'd be so unlucky.
Yeah, sadly. The Chips I have are supported, but the device ids they have aren't supported by the kernel, i would have to check it out from source, add those ids and compile it on my own. At least i could find that for the network adapter, i guess its the same for the sound devices, cause they just use normal parts from realtek and the like.
Ive just bought those parts because they had the best performance and features for their price point, i could literally spend over a thousand euros more to only get a little bit more features or performance. I kinda had hopes that nearly everyone who would build a rig these days would buy those and because of that someone would have made them linux compatible in the last two years.
Ive just bought those parts because they had the best performance and features for their price point, i could literally spend over a thousand euros more to only get a little bit more features or performance. I kinda had hopes that nearly everyone who would build a rig these days would buy those and because of that someone would have made them linux compatible in the last two years.
> * No bullshit forced updates when the OS feels like it.
Eh... kinda, actually. I can recall many times wanting to try out an application only to discover that my LTS distro which was gasp 4 years old didn't have it in the repo, so I was forced to upgrade in order to get it without setting up a build environment and recompiling.
If AppImage were more widely embraced this sort of thing wouldn't need to happen.
Eh... kinda, actually. I can recall many times wanting to try out an application only to discover that my LTS distro which was gasp 4 years old didn't have it in the repo, so I was forced to upgrade in order to get it without setting up a build environment and recompiling.
If AppImage were more widely embraced this sort of thing wouldn't need to happen.
I expect the user-facing stuff is more subjective.
I use linux for my personal server, but I still use Windows in my desktop (with WSL). I have Nvidia GPU, multiple monitor, so Wayland don't seem to be ready for my use case. I aware of proton too, but needing tweaks to run games doesn't seem to be ready to me. I expect games to be "just work". Also, there are also non-steam games and anti-cheat. Currently, WSL perfectly fit my needs for development environment.
I had used KDE, which gave me a good experience, but the general Linux desktop ecosystem doesn't feel ready for me. Maybe years later, the situation will be good enough to switch, but it is not now.
I had used KDE, which gave me a good experience, but the general Linux desktop ecosystem doesn't feel ready for me. Maybe years later, the situation will be good enough to switch, but it is not now.
Its not that "Wayland is not ready" and more "NVidia does not care". Wayland works on all Free drivers.
I know, but it doesn't matter for me, I care about "work" or "not work". Also, I heard that Wayland still have problems with Remote Desktop, screenshot, screen recording...
Sharing your screen through slack... Zoom works though..
The screenshot thing just depends on the tool...
The screenshot thing just depends on the tool...
For people with Nvidia GPUs, not working === not ready
Linux on desktop used to be great, but does anyone get the sense that it is going downhill?
I don't even touch proprietary Nvidia drivers, all my machines are Radeon or Intel GPU and they used to work fine. But currently on Radeon I have to revert back to kernel 4.19 to get sleep to work. On Intel anything newer than 5.6 won't even boot. I don't get it. Maybe kernel devs mostly care about servers and VMs and are letting the desktop stuff bitrot?
I don't even touch proprietary Nvidia drivers, all my machines are Radeon or Intel GPU and they used to work fine. But currently on Radeon I have to revert back to kernel 4.19 to get sleep to work. On Intel anything newer than 5.6 won't even boot. I don't get it. Maybe kernel devs mostly care about servers and VMs and are letting the desktop stuff bitrot?
I have 5.9 kernels running fine on two laptops with intel graphics.
Have you investigated what exactly stopped your systems from booting?
It hangs when trying to load the i915 module. CPU goes up to 100% and display goes black. Obviously it works with some, probably most intel GPUs but seems they aren’t bothering to test it with the older ones anymore. There’s a bunch of bug reports about it, so it’s not just me. usually they get closed with some list of voodoo kernel parameters that supposedly fix the problem but none of them fix it for me.
Damn, that sounds frustrating :/
Which distro? That's very weird because most of my drivers problems are usually solved by updating the Kernel.
I’ve tried several distros and every updated kernel up to 5.9. No distro works if it has a kernel newer than 5.6.
Please report this bug.
I will if I get time, which is unlikely. Intel is not a volunteer-run organization nor even a small company so I'm sure they could afford a test-bed containing one of each of their GPUs to test their drivers before release if they cared about this.
Just report it, it is their responsibility to reproduce and fix it, since they are paid for it.
Yes, Linux and regressions, it is quite common and frequent annoyance. Many times I regret for not using some LTS distro, but stalled/outdated software stops me from making the switch.
If only you could have an LTS base system with up to date applications. Sadly, the distro+repo+package model does not handle this obvious use case well.
Who cares which is better.
If it works for you and your situation, great. Stop trying to make me change what works for me because you believe it would somehow be better.
Also can we just stop this endless bickering over irrelevant things like this.
I say this as a Linux user for a little over a decade, and someone who can not tolerate using Windows with its extreme need for bad system gui to be able to achieve anything, and lack of the software suites I have gotten used to.
You do you, and I will do me.
/edit: I am mostly talking to the comments here, not the document as I find it refreshingly non judgmental in its analysis of pros and cons.
If it works for you and your situation, great. Stop trying to make me change what works for me because you believe it would somehow be better.
Also can we just stop this endless bickering over irrelevant things like this.
I say this as a Linux user for a little over a decade, and someone who can not tolerate using Windows with its extreme need for bad system gui to be able to achieve anything, and lack of the software suites I have gotten used to.
You do you, and I will do me.
/edit: I am mostly talking to the comments here, not the document as I find it refreshingly non judgmental in its analysis of pros and cons.
> If it works for you and your situation, great. Stop trying to make me change what works for me because you believe it would somehow be better.
On a personal level, I completely agree with this sentiment. If grandma wants to use windows, macOS, or whatever, she should do so!
When a Windows update fails halfway through and can't boot to Windows, or when macOS can't connect to it's all powerful binary validation server and her system becomes unusable, she's going to call me. Okay, fine, I'll play tech support for my relatives because they've chosen to use an unstable system. Same as if my junker car broke down, I'd call my uncle, because he's a mechanic, and he'd berate me for not having a reliable car, then fix it. What's family for.
However, my workplace is Windows only. I've wasted literally hundreds of hours fighting against Windows to make firewall and server settings correct (and fixed them again when it updates and borks the settings) for network applications that I've wrote. Something that would take about an hour to write a bash script for, push it to all the computers if they were Linux, and they'd never ever fail after that. It's just mind boggling that people accept this kind of behavior, and it's very damaging in the workplace. So I'm gonna keep pushing for Linux as standard at the workplace, and run whatever you want at home.
On a personal level, I completely agree with this sentiment. If grandma wants to use windows, macOS, or whatever, she should do so!
When a Windows update fails halfway through and can't boot to Windows, or when macOS can't connect to it's all powerful binary validation server and her system becomes unusable, she's going to call me. Okay, fine, I'll play tech support for my relatives because they've chosen to use an unstable system. Same as if my junker car broke down, I'd call my uncle, because he's a mechanic, and he'd berate me for not having a reliable car, then fix it. What's family for.
However, my workplace is Windows only. I've wasted literally hundreds of hours fighting against Windows to make firewall and server settings correct (and fixed them again when it updates and borks the settings) for network applications that I've wrote. Something that would take about an hour to write a bash script for, push it to all the computers if they were Linux, and they'd never ever fail after that. It's just mind boggling that people accept this kind of behavior, and it's very damaging in the workplace. So I'm gonna keep pushing for Linux as standard at the workplace, and run whatever you want at home.
Yes, and that is because Windows isn't working for you. But I know of plenty of lay people and professionals who use Windows, and enjoy it. For them it works.
And I know of plenty of people, me included, which would walk away from a job if Windows was a requirement (which I have done after a mandatory switch was made post hiring).
So you do you, and I'll do me, and please can we just move onto something more important.
And I know of plenty of people, me included, which would walk away from a job if Windows was a requirement (which I have done after a mandatory switch was made post hiring).
So you do you, and I'll do me, and please can we just move onto something more important.
I get what you are saying and agree. However the reason these types of articles appear in the internet is because the linux desktop needs more market share. More means the ability to get better support from other organizations OR to get open source replacements of apps and drivers. Linux needs better market share to get better, so you get stuff like this posted.
> However the reason these types of articles appear in the internet is because the linux desktop needs more market share
Then Linux Desktop people should actually try to address the reasons people say they are staying on Windows/MacOS. I have been watching this show now for 20 years and very little has changed. Linux Desktop evangelists keep telling people they should use Linux Desktop, and keep get told by potential users why they aren't using Linux Desktop, then they ignore it. Linux Desktop evangelists have tied Linux to their identity in such a way that they interpret any criticism as a personal attack and defend themselves with the same tired old stock arguments. These types of articles appeal to the Linux Desktop evangelist because they soothe them.
Then Linux Desktop people should actually try to address the reasons people say they are staying on Windows/MacOS. I have been watching this show now for 20 years and very little has changed. Linux Desktop evangelists keep telling people they should use Linux Desktop, and keep get told by potential users why they aren't using Linux Desktop, then they ignore it. Linux Desktop evangelists have tied Linux to their identity in such a way that they interpret any criticism as a personal attack and defend themselves with the same tired old stock arguments. These types of articles appeal to the Linux Desktop evangelist because they soothe them.
Some people want a Nespresso.
Some people want a bean to cup espresso machine with built in grinder. Others want something similar, but insist on a separate grinder and brewer.
Some people want to hand grind their beans then put them through an Aeropress, possibly while sitting in a field.
A handful of organizations will brew by the ton, freeze dry the results, and sell it on as a kind of brewing as a service product. It’s worse and better at the same time.
The fact that these are all called coffee is a simplification that makes most comparisons more complicated.
Some people want a bean to cup espresso machine with built in grinder. Others want something similar, but insist on a separate grinder and brewer.
Some people want to hand grind their beans then put them through an Aeropress, possibly while sitting in a field.
A handful of organizations will brew by the ton, freeze dry the results, and sell it on as a kind of brewing as a service product. It’s worse and better at the same time.
The fact that these are all called coffee is a simplification that makes most comparisons more complicated.
File extensions are a much better way of determining filetype than "magic"; they mean that the user can actually see what type a file is. It would actually be easier to dupe Linux users into running malware than Windows users if it weren't for the execute bit.
> "Linux is more flexible and customizable."
> "Linux gives you more control over your computer."
> Stop it.
I think the above reasons explain this better rather than the deep dive the article tries to accomplish.
We're talking about preferences here. If I prefer Linux I don't need an explanation. Personally I like the lesser restrictions (Both Windows and Mac are locking down more and more) and the higher customisation it offers.
But the thing about preferences is that they are largely a feeling. Therefore reasons don't have to be concise or defined scientifically. One example: I hate the way Windows 10 forces me to update whenever it wants, and doesn't allow me to turn off telemetry. Neither of those things will actually affect me very much: I would usually update within the required timeframe anyway and the telemetry is minimal.
However it is the feeling of increased corporate control over my machine, in a time where corporate surveillance is already rampant that makes me hate this.
So objectively these arguments are hardly valid but still I feel better moving to Linux (or rather: FreeBSD) as a daily driver. That's ok as it is my preference :)
PS: I use pretty much all platforms every day for various reasons
I think the above reasons explain this better rather than the deep dive the article tries to accomplish.
We're talking about preferences here. If I prefer Linux I don't need an explanation. Personally I like the lesser restrictions (Both Windows and Mac are locking down more and more) and the higher customisation it offers.
But the thing about preferences is that they are largely a feeling. Therefore reasons don't have to be concise or defined scientifically. One example: I hate the way Windows 10 forces me to update whenever it wants, and doesn't allow me to turn off telemetry. Neither of those things will actually affect me very much: I would usually update within the required timeframe anyway and the telemetry is minimal.
However it is the feeling of increased corporate control over my machine, in a time where corporate surveillance is already rampant that makes me hate this.
So objectively these arguments are hardly valid but still I feel better moving to Linux (or rather: FreeBSD) as a daily driver. That's ok as it is my preference :)
PS: I use pretty much all platforms every day for various reasons
I've been exclusively using Linux (PopOS specifically) with xanmod for the past 2 months. I do my work (programming), game, etc, etc on this one PC. It's been honestly great.
I've had to change some things I do normally, but for me they weren't a big deal.
Games I play that work well on Linux:
- Overwatch
- League of Legends (not so much anymore because URF is gone)
- Hades
- Frostpunk (highly recommend)
I use an Xbox controller for Hades, and I use it in wired mode (one of the things I needed to change about how I use my computer). Bluetooth has some issues I didn't want to bother fixing.
I am using Xanmod because the regular Linux scheduler is just trash in my opinion for desktop use. It doesn't prioritize UI threads which just makes the linux experience so much worse for me.
I've had to change some things I do normally, but for me they weren't a big deal.
Games I play that work well on Linux:
- Overwatch
- League of Legends (not so much anymore because URF is gone)
- Hades
- Frostpunk (highly recommend)
I use an Xbox controller for Hades, and I use it in wired mode (one of the things I needed to change about how I use my computer). Bluetooth has some issues I didn't want to bother fixing.
I am using Xanmod because the regular Linux scheduler is just trash in my opinion for desktop use. It doesn't prioritize UI threads which just makes the linux experience so much worse for me.
Most uses of linux are in server or embedded space, and so are most of the contributions.
By contrast most of Windows development is focused on it being a consumer OS. It's unrealistic to expect Linux to ever catch up to windows as long as this is true, especially when we spread effort too thing creating 15 different distributions.
By contrast most of Windows development is focused on it being a consumer OS. It's unrealistic to expect Linux to ever catch up to windows as long as this is true, especially when we spread effort too thing creating 15 different distributions.
They both suck. They just suck in different ways. Choose your poison.
Or don't choose and use both.
Or don't choose and use both.
This is the real answer. I'm tired of people comparing Linux and Windows, they're based on completely different philosophies and design styles, it's truly apples vs oranges.
I would tend to agree. Linux has been my main OS for the past few years in part because I agree with the principles behind it, but also simply because I _feel_ better using it than using Windows. I'm not at ease with the user experience and the behaviour of Windows. So I'm using Linux and I don't really run into any meaningful issues day-to-day. The biggest issues I had to solve lately were on my VPS, not even my desktop.
But as the GP said : you can always use both, and there are a lot of ways to do so. A few games and softwares I use can't run on Linux so I keep a windows on dual-boot. WLS 2 is a great experience for a lot of folks, etc.
But as the GP said : you can always use both, and there are a lot of ways to do so. A few games and softwares I use can't run on Linux so I keep a windows on dual-boot. WLS 2 is a great experience for a lot of folks, etc.
My home computers have been GNU/Linux exclusively since 2003. Recently I had to install Windows 10 on a computer at work, and was horrified that the thing has advertisements!! Not only that, the level of manipulation to avoid you from just using a local user account (and get an online one instead) is terrible. You get two choices:
1. Get an online Microsoft Account,
2. Miss on all the great user experience!
Who wants to be a loser and miss all the great stuff?
Hence if I ever needed more reasons to prefer Linux over Windows now I have "to prevent the creators of the software from manipulating me".
Who wants to be a loser and miss all the great stuff?
Hence if I ever needed more reasons to prefer Linux over Windows now I have "to prevent the creators of the software from manipulating me".
I think part of the issue with Linux for a casual user can be perfectly illustrated in this HN thread. The comments are filled with endless recommendations for different packages that do the same thing. Choice is great and part of the Linux charm, but for the average user keeping up with it all is overwhelming and simply not worth it.
The title doesn't appear to match the text. It seems to be mostly a list of things that might trip up Linux developers when moving to Windows. Which is fair enough but not why I clicked this link.
But to address the list's content, it would be interesting to update it to take into account developments made in more recent versions of Windows 10.
But to address the list's content, it would be interesting to update it to take into account developments made in more recent versions of Windows 10.
Last Windows-based system I used professionally was Win2K and it was bearable after some heavy-duty configuration.
Switched to MacOS around 2002. It was not user-hostile back then and a decent Unix env. and Apple seemed to be headed down the right path, promising to support FOSS.
Switched from MacOS to Linux circa 2008 when it became abundantly clear that Apple's "backing" of OpenSource was a complete hoax designed to attract FOSS hackers to the platform and lock them in (the only parts of the OS that were FOSS were the lower layers, the entire stack above it was closed source - a tiger simply can't change its stripes).
Never had to look back, and when I look at the locked-in walled garden privacy hell that OSX has become, boy am I glad I switched.
Switched to MacOS around 2002. It was not user-hostile back then and a decent Unix env. and Apple seemed to be headed down the right path, promising to support FOSS.
Switched from MacOS to Linux circa 2008 when it became abundantly clear that Apple's "backing" of OpenSource was a complete hoax designed to attract FOSS hackers to the platform and lock them in (the only parts of the OS that were FOSS were the lower layers, the entire stack above it was closed source - a tiger simply can't change its stripes).
Never had to look back, and when I look at the locked-in walled garden privacy hell that OSX has become, boy am I glad I switched.
Ever since I've installed WSL a few months ago, I've stopped booting into my Linux partition out of laziness. Last week I booted into Linux to access an old project and the UX felt like an uncanny valley. I suspect it might be due to Windows/Linux having different mouse acceleration formulas which is pretty noticeable when I try moving across 3x 1440p monitors.
Now that Windows dev experience (for me) is almost comparable to Linux and will continue to improve, I don't see much reason to switch back to Linux.
Of course that's not to say I don't have any complaints for Windows. For example file names are not case sensitive and it drives me crazy when I need to change a file name's casing.
Now that Windows dev experience (for me) is almost comparable to Linux and will continue to improve, I don't see much reason to switch back to Linux.
Of course that's not to say I don't have any complaints for Windows. For example file names are not case sensitive and it drives me crazy when I need to change a file name's casing.
I really hated the intro. There are less confrontational ways of making that point across.
Then the points being made did not resonate with my own reasons for using Linux.
Microsoft loves Linux and Open source, in paper, but the reason you are not using Linux right now is mostly due to Microsoft.
MS Office, the defacto Office suite, runs only on macOS and Windows, and the OOXML standard was created with obfuscation in mind.
Microsoft bought Corel, and shortly after Corel Office dropped its Linux release.
Microsoft lobbies governments so that they adopt MS Office. Some of those goverments are starving impoverished countries that could rather use that money for humanitarian reasons.
OpenGL was the target of a FUD campaign that scared game developers forcing them to adopt DirectX.
Then the points being made did not resonate with my own reasons for using Linux.
Microsoft loves Linux and Open source, in paper, but the reason you are not using Linux right now is mostly due to Microsoft.
MS Office, the defacto Office suite, runs only on macOS and Windows, and the OOXML standard was created with obfuscation in mind.
Microsoft bought Corel, and shortly after Corel Office dropped its Linux release.
Microsoft lobbies governments so that they adopt MS Office. Some of those goverments are starving impoverished countries that could rather use that money for humanitarian reasons.
OpenGL was the target of a FUD campaign that scared game developers forcing them to adopt DirectX.
Ability to read through all of the code that's running on my computer, and understand it all at some level, is what I like a lot.
Arguably my desktop is not that complicated (i3wm), so there's not a ton of processes running around.
When I find a bug, I can try to fix it myself. When I want an extra feature, I can add it. I did this so many times already, it's ridiculous. From adding support for new HW to the kernel, to patching my postgresql to support my language better, to adding zstd support to qemu qcow2, and hundreds of other small things over the last 15 years or so.
This is what's great on GNU/Linux.
Arguably my desktop is not that complicated (i3wm), so there's not a ton of processes running around.
When I find a bug, I can try to fix it myself. When I want an extra feature, I can add it. I did this so many times already, it's ridiculous. From adding support for new HW to the kernel, to patching my postgresql to support my language better, to adding zstd support to qemu qcow2, and hundreds of other small things over the last 15 years or so.
This is what's great on GNU/Linux.
20y on Windows, 2y on Mac, 2y on Linux: Linux is sometimes painful, but beats the alternatives.
Pros: Customizability, speed, MS/Apple can't dictate what's on my PC.
Cons: Wifi issues, screen tearing, time spent configuring.
Pros: Customizability, speed, MS/Apple can't dictate what's on my PC.
Cons: Wifi issues, screen tearing, time spent configuring.
Screen tearing is a thing of the past with Wayland. Granted, not everyone can use it yet.
These kinds of post very often confuse people.
We need to divide the debate into two perspectives: Development and Desktop environment.
As a dev, I always use Linux. I love to use shell all the time. However, I use Windows as a desktop environment because I fed up with the whole Xorg vs Wayland situation and inferior VNC experiences to Windows RDP.
We need to divide the debate into two perspectives: Development and Desktop environment.
As a dev, I always use Linux. I love to use shell all the time. However, I use Windows as a desktop environment because I fed up with the whole Xorg vs Wayland situation and inferior VNC experiences to Windows RDP.
The article says determining filetype via heuristics is better than via extension. I don't agree with that, heuristics are confusing. File extensions lead to behavior that a human can predict.
mv image.png program.exe
mv program.exe sound.mp3
mv sound.mp3 text.pdf
Same file, always a PNG despite the extensions I can attach to it.
mv program.exe sound.mp3
mv sound.mp3 text.pdf
Same file, always a PNG despite the extensions I can attach to it.
Sure. But I think of the file extension as a way to tell the OS which program I want a file to open with. In Windows when I see a .mp3 file I know which program will open when I double click on it. In Linux it's a mystery. I like my computer to behave in a predictable manner.
In Windows extensions have a meaning. In Linux, why even bother having extensions? In neither OS does the extension tell you about the content of the file. But on Windows the extension does tell you something useful about how the OS interacts with the file.
In Windows extensions have a meaning. In Linux, why even bother having extensions? In neither OS does the extension tell you about the content of the file. But on Windows the extension does tell you something useful about how the OS interacts with the file.
Out of curiosity I checked what Files (the desktop app) and file (the CLI tool) do in Ubuntu 20.04.
Files says that image.png is a PNG image
A suggestion to Files' authors: check the magic file definition, not the extension, especially when opening files.
What I use extensions for: to remember what a file is, by the name of it when doing ls in the terminal. The extension is more to help me than the OS. I open most of the files I work with by the command line, not in Files. Another reason is that if I send the file to somebody else I want to make it easy for them. So screenshot-2020-11-16_1000.png and not screenshot-2020-11-16_1000 which maybe breaks some of their tools. Third reason: some files must have an extension: header.h, program.c, program.o, program and not header and code, code, code :-)
And yes, programs in *NIX never had extensions. So ls / and not ls.exe /
Files says that image.png is a PNG image
$ file image.png
image.png: PNG image data, 965 x 720, 8-bit/color RGB, non-interlaced
$ mv image.png program.exe
$ file program.exe
program.exe: PNG image data, 965 x 720, 8-bit/color RGB, non-interlaced
$ eog program.exe
$ mv program.exe sound.mp3
$ mv sound.mp3 text.pdf
A suggestion to Files' authors: check the magic file definition, not the extension, especially when opening files.
What I use extensions for: to remember what a file is, by the name of it when doing ls in the terminal. The extension is more to help me than the OS. I open most of the files I work with by the command line, not in Files. Another reason is that if I send the file to somebody else I want to make it easy for them. So screenshot-2020-11-16_1000.png and not screenshot-2020-11-16_1000 which maybe breaks some of their tools. Third reason: some files must have an extension: header.h, program.c, program.o, program and not header and code, code, code :-)
And yes, programs in *NIX never had extensions. So ls / and not ls.exe /
> In Linux, why even bother having extensions
While the file extension can be lying maliciously or can be just plain incorrect in 1% cases, its informative for the user in the other 99% cases
While the file extension can be lying maliciously or can be just plain incorrect in 1% cases, its informative for the user in the other 99% cases
[deleted]
I agree with you. But pmontra seems to operate differently than that, and have files with mismatching extensions. In that case the extensions tell you something on Windows but not on Linux.
I don't mismatch extensions because I don't want to play tricks to me in the future :-)
Sometimes I don't add extensions, usually on plain text files.
> In Linux it's a mystery. I like my computer to behave in a predictable manner.
You're not really talking about Linux. You're talking about mime types and xdg-open, the de-facto default way Linux desktop environments (not to be confused with distros) handle default applications. You mentioned double clicking so I'm going to assume you were talking about it in the context of a GUI DE opening files from a file manager or the desktop.
xdg-open is configurable and even completely replaceable. For example, I have it replaced with mimeo, which I have a couple hardset rules based on extensions. Any time I don't like its default behavior, I'll add 2 lines to the config file to specify what I want. I personally don't like configuring mime types and stuff itself. It's incredibly predictable because for example I just tell mimeo that anything that ends with pdf should be opened with zathura. I find that Linux tends to be way less mysterious since it's so open and transparent and configurable.
But a valid complaint to this response would be that defaults matter, and that you shouldn't have to tinker to get what you want. So I think in that sense you're thinking of how KDE/GNOME handles this, which last I checked was extremely simple. You just right click a file and set the default application for opening its mimetype. Any future file of this mimetype will be opened by what you specified. And I think mimetypes are just better UX than raw extensions; it's a much better experience telling KDE to open all music files with your music app rather than specifying extensions. And various applications come with .desktop files that let you know what they can handle. So you get a nice list of relevant applications but you can still tell it to open it in whatever you want. Meanwhile in Windows the default behavior is to hide file extensions which I think is actually the worst of both worlds. Using file extensions to inform default applications while hiding them. I find that to be more mysterious.
> In Windows extensions have a meaning. In Linux, why even bother having extensions? In neither OS does the extension tell you about the content of the file. But on Windows the extension does tell you something useful about how the OS interacts with the file.
Again, "Linux" is not a monolith (yes the kernel is monolithic, but you know what I mean) that you can compare directly to Windows. Windows basically has a mime types system but worse (less intelligent with clunkier UI and legacy defaults), and there's nothing you can do to change it. On Linux it depends entirely on what you have setup. For example, for a long time I just never had it set up. There was nothing to "double-click" to begin with, and if I wanted to for example open an image file with my image viewer, I would just type out `imv bruh.png`.
What you're actually debating is xdg-open vs. whatever it's called in Windows. I personally kind of agree with you so I don't use xdg-open. But I'm still using Linux.
You're not really talking about Linux. You're talking about mime types and xdg-open, the de-facto default way Linux desktop environments (not to be confused with distros) handle default applications. You mentioned double clicking so I'm going to assume you were talking about it in the context of a GUI DE opening files from a file manager or the desktop.
xdg-open is configurable and even completely replaceable. For example, I have it replaced with mimeo, which I have a couple hardset rules based on extensions. Any time I don't like its default behavior, I'll add 2 lines to the config file to specify what I want. I personally don't like configuring mime types and stuff itself. It's incredibly predictable because for example I just tell mimeo that anything that ends with pdf should be opened with zathura. I find that Linux tends to be way less mysterious since it's so open and transparent and configurable.
But a valid complaint to this response would be that defaults matter, and that you shouldn't have to tinker to get what you want. So I think in that sense you're thinking of how KDE/GNOME handles this, which last I checked was extremely simple. You just right click a file and set the default application for opening its mimetype. Any future file of this mimetype will be opened by what you specified. And I think mimetypes are just better UX than raw extensions; it's a much better experience telling KDE to open all music files with your music app rather than specifying extensions. And various applications come with .desktop files that let you know what they can handle. So you get a nice list of relevant applications but you can still tell it to open it in whatever you want. Meanwhile in Windows the default behavior is to hide file extensions which I think is actually the worst of both worlds. Using file extensions to inform default applications while hiding them. I find that to be more mysterious.
> In Windows extensions have a meaning. In Linux, why even bother having extensions? In neither OS does the extension tell you about the content of the file. But on Windows the extension does tell you something useful about how the OS interacts with the file.
Again, "Linux" is not a monolith (yes the kernel is monolithic, but you know what I mean) that you can compare directly to Windows. Windows basically has a mime types system but worse (less intelligent with clunkier UI and legacy defaults), and there's nothing you can do to change it. On Linux it depends entirely on what you have setup. For example, for a long time I just never had it set up. There was nothing to "double-click" to begin with, and if I wanted to for example open an image file with my image viewer, I would just type out `imv bruh.png`.
What you're actually debating is xdg-open vs. whatever it's called in Windows. I personally kind of agree with you so I don't use xdg-open. But I'm still using Linux.
>You're not really talking about Linux. You're talking about mime types and xdg-open, the de-facto default way Linux desktop environments (not to be confused with distros) handle default applications.
Yes, but the github page this post is about is making that same mistake.
> Meanwhile in Windows the default behavior is to hide file extensions which I think is actually the worst of both worlds.
Oh yes, terrible, I can't believe I actually forgot about that. I've modified that on every Windows computer I use.
Thanks for the info! I'll keep this in mind when I eventually switch to Linux like I've been meaning to for a while...
Yes, but the github page this post is about is making that same mistake.
> Meanwhile in Windows the default behavior is to hide file extensions which I think is actually the worst of both worlds.
Oh yes, terrible, I can't believe I actually forgot about that. I've modified that on every Windows computer I use.
Thanks for the info! I'll keep this in mind when I eventually switch to Linux like I've been meaning to for a while...
Yeah, not blaming you at all for the common misconception. I'm just glad you got something out of my wall of text.
If you ever make the switch, definitely check out the Arch Linux wiki even if you never use Arch: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Default_applications
If you ever make the switch, definitely check out the Arch Linux wiki even if you never use Arch: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Default_applications
Where is the corresponding document listing objective reasons to prefer Windows over Linux? Without that, this effort cannot be taken seriously.
True. From a regular Fedora and occasional windows user
Office runs on it, games work on it, Thinkpad touchpad drivers aren't shit, Microsoft To Do is still better than anything anyone else has come up with, fractional scaling that works properly, power management that works properly, half decent recovery options, best corporate SSO and device management on the market, smoothest full disk encryption.
Office runs on it, games work on it, Thinkpad touchpad drivers aren't shit, Microsoft To Do is still better than anything anyone else has come up with, fractional scaling that works properly, power management that works properly, half decent recovery options, best corporate SSO and device management on the market, smoothest full disk encryption.
>smoothest full disk encryption
It may be smooth, but it also sends the disk encryption key to Microsoft unless you pay extra for Pro and above, so y'know...
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/finding-your-bit...
It may be smooth, but it also sends the disk encryption key to Microsoft unless you pay extra for Pro and above, so y'know...
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/finding-your-bit...
Hmmm, I just bought a Dell Precision laptop that had Bitlocker enabled by default (presumably by Dell) and at no point was I asked to record a backup key. I don't have a Microsoft account either. I'm probably screwed?
You can export the key to something else (and it's worth doing) personally I've gone for passing it to Microsoft (I'm not sure I could find whatever USB key I've stored it on otherwise). The option is under "Manage bitlocker" "backup your recovery key".
I've had bitlocker fail to find the key after doing a BIOS update where the TPM has been messed up (although usually it's just been disabled and needs re-enabling). If Microsoft has the backup key you can login on another PC or phone and get the key again (from memory it's around 25 random characters).
My threat model is theft of a PC not Microsoft one drive being hacked. Just means whoever steals the PC now has to either:
a) Hack the TPM
b) Hack my Microsoft account
c) Give up and reformat the PC before resale
While a & b are not impossible they seem unlikely for a random thief, while option c seems like the most likely response to a PC stolen with bitlocker enabled.
Bitlocker makes me less likely to be a victim of identity theft after having my PC stolen.
I've had bitlocker fail to find the key after doing a BIOS update where the TPM has been messed up (although usually it's just been disabled and needs re-enabling). If Microsoft has the backup key you can login on another PC or phone and get the key again (from memory it's around 25 random characters).
My threat model is theft of a PC not Microsoft one drive being hacked. Just means whoever steals the PC now has to either:
a) Hack the TPM
b) Hack my Microsoft account
c) Give up and reformat the PC before resale
While a & b are not impossible they seem unlikely for a random thief, while option c seems like the most likely response to a PC stolen with bitlocker enabled.
Bitlocker makes me less likely to be a victim of identity theft after having my PC stolen.
Exactly this.
Mine came with pro. It was printed out. Not that it matters as it has Fedora on it now :)
The best recovery option is the ability to snapshot a system and restore a computer or another computer to that exact state which has always been a thing even if implemented via rsync instead of zfs rollback/send. Gui installers offered a full disk encryption option when I started using Fedora 1.0.
If you want a pretty gui Timeshift seems to be a thing.
Power management in addition seems to work fine if the machine is properly supported. At least it seems to be as good on a thinkpad as on windows with more options via tlpui.
Task management solutions are a dime a dozen.
If you want a pretty gui Timeshift seems to be a thing.
Power management in addition seems to work fine if the machine is properly supported. At least it seems to be as good on a thinkpad as on windows with more options via tlpui.
Task management solutions are a dime a dozen.
> Microsoft To Do is still better than anything anyone else has come up with
Not really. It started as Wunderlist minus half the features plus a useless “My Day” system. When did they add the “All Tasks” smart list? (It’s at least 2 years by my count, I don’t know the exact numbers.) How did they launch without it (it was in Wunderlist)?
> smoothest full disk encryption
macOS’ FileVault 2 is the smoothest, and it’s available to everyone. BitLocker works best with hardware not every computer has, and you need Windows 10 Pro or better.
(I agree with the rest of your points.)
Not really. It started as Wunderlist minus half the features plus a useless “My Day” system. When did they add the “All Tasks” smart list? (It’s at least 2 years by my count, I don’t know the exact numbers.) How did they launch without it (it was in Wunderlist)?
> smoothest full disk encryption
macOS’ FileVault 2 is the smoothest, and it’s available to everyone. BitLocker works best with hardware not every computer has, and you need Windows 10 Pro or better.
(I agree with the rest of your points.)
The GUI.
Linux and other Unices have much better CLI, but the GUI of Windows is far more consistent and complete than the dozen or more variances in UI frameworks/libraries/etc. of the Unix world... that is, until recently, when Electron and other non-native monstrosities took over with their superficially pretty but otherwise horribly unusable dumbed-down mobile-ish UIs.
I say this as a long-time Win32 programmer who actually started writing software for DOS and briefly for Win16 --- the CLI in DOS and Windows is so much less consistent and powerful than the *nixes (and PowersHell is a real abomination of syntax, as powerful as it may be...)
Linux and other Unices have much better CLI, but the GUI of Windows is far more consistent and complete than the dozen or more variances in UI frameworks/libraries/etc. of the Unix world... that is, until recently, when Electron and other non-native monstrosities took over with their superficially pretty but otherwise horribly unusable dumbed-down mobile-ish UIs.
I say this as a long-time Win32 programmer who actually started writing software for DOS and briefly for Win16 --- the CLI in DOS and Windows is so much less consistent and powerful than the *nixes (and PowersHell is a real abomination of syntax, as powerful as it may be...)
Logically that’s not true.
However it would be easier to write the list of why Windows is better because it would be a much shorter list
However it would be easier to write the list of why Windows is better because it would be a much shorter list
Without a counterpoint providing an opposing view, how are we supposed to take your comment seriously?
Linux works pretty fine now for me, but I did (and still have to) put up a fight with it to actually work properly.
Just recently kwin started freezing occasionally when starting up KDE with the logs mentioning absolutely nothing related to that. I've tried several solutions I found through research but the issue still remains. Even restarting kwin won't solve the problem and I have to resort to rebooting to hope it fixes itself. Quite annoying.
Also occasionally my nvidia dGPU (with power management enabled) just doesn't power itself off even if its not being used by any process. I've once again played around with all kinds of parameters and configs without any luck. I'm aware it's an experimental feature but it's still a major issue for me since its the difference between 6 and 3 hours of battery life.
On top of that for some reason all of my games randomly decide to drop down to very low framerates while barely utilizing my CPU and GPU. It's nothing to do with my temps or either CPU or GPU throttling down (they're still at their max clock speeds), there's nothing in the background using any kind of significant amount of system resources and the niceness / ioprio of my game's process is set high enough so some random process going rogue shouldn't affect game performance too much.
These are just some examples of random problems I'm facing regularily and it's just frustrating having to tinker around (sometimes for days) to (hopefully) fix them. Which is a shame since I'm really enjoying my Linux install.
Just recently kwin started freezing occasionally when starting up KDE with the logs mentioning absolutely nothing related to that. I've tried several solutions I found through research but the issue still remains. Even restarting kwin won't solve the problem and I have to resort to rebooting to hope it fixes itself. Quite annoying.
Also occasionally my nvidia dGPU (with power management enabled) just doesn't power itself off even if its not being used by any process. I've once again played around with all kinds of parameters and configs without any luck. I'm aware it's an experimental feature but it's still a major issue for me since its the difference between 6 and 3 hours of battery life.
On top of that for some reason all of my games randomly decide to drop down to very low framerates while barely utilizing my CPU and GPU. It's nothing to do with my temps or either CPU or GPU throttling down (they're still at their max clock speeds), there's nothing in the background using any kind of significant amount of system resources and the niceness / ioprio of my game's process is set high enough so some random process going rogue shouldn't affect game performance too much.
These are just some examples of random problems I'm facing regularily and it's just frustrating having to tinker around (sometimes for days) to (hopefully) fix them. Which is a shame since I'm really enjoying my Linux install.
I've been full time Linux for about a year now, and prior to that I relied heavily on WSL. I'm very happy. I dual boot Ubuntu and Windows on my main machine (Windows for games), but I haven't booted into Windows for over three months (busy semester is mostly the reason). My laptop is full time Linux and I wouldn't have it any other way.
As a developer, Linux is everything I could want, and I really want desktop Linux to continue to gain traction. While DEs like GNOME (which I use) and KDE look and feel modern and come with some great software out of the box, I still run into issues on occasion. The desktop environment is where Linux begins to fall short in my experience.
Windows and MacOS have the advantage of having a single "DE" to worry about, where as Linux offers a variety which are independently developed. That's awesome, but when I run into a bug once a week, it really sucks. I can fix the problem no issue, but it makes me hesitant to recommend GNOME to a friend to relative.
Granted, this can be because I'm using a 4K display with a new version of GNOME. I haven't used KDE or XFCE recently, so maybe they take care of these a lot better. If they are significantly better, please, let me know. I'd love a good out of the box desktop experience on Linux.
As a developer, Linux is everything I could want, and I really want desktop Linux to continue to gain traction. While DEs like GNOME (which I use) and KDE look and feel modern and come with some great software out of the box, I still run into issues on occasion. The desktop environment is where Linux begins to fall short in my experience.
Windows and MacOS have the advantage of having a single "DE" to worry about, where as Linux offers a variety which are independently developed. That's awesome, but when I run into a bug once a week, it really sucks. I can fix the problem no issue, but it makes me hesitant to recommend GNOME to a friend to relative.
Granted, this can be because I'm using a 4K display with a new version of GNOME. I haven't used KDE or XFCE recently, so maybe they take care of these a lot better. If they are significantly better, please, let me know. I'd love a good out of the box desktop experience on Linux.
This may seem silly to a bunch of people in this thread, but MS Office and OneDrive is what is keeping me on Windows. I rely on the core MS Office apps enough that I wasn't able to switch to Linux full time. Also, I rely on OneDrive and the "download files as you need them" feature which isn't available with any of the open source apps.
That said, Windows 10 is solid and with the combination of WSL2 and Hyper-V, I can do everything on Windows that I can do on a Linux desktop.
That said, Windows 10 is solid and with the combination of WSL2 and Hyper-V, I can do everything on Windows that I can do on a Linux desktop.
I believe Dropbox also supports Smart sync and has Linux support.
Linux updates dont force themselves on my machine and brick it once it reboots.
Did this happen to you, or is this an urban legend?
This happened to various developers at my last workplace on a particular Windows update. I think some of them just reinstalled Windows.
Have had this experience with Windows 10 and OS X in the last two years.
You could argue the Windows issue is the fault of Samsung's migration assistant or the OS X issue was the fault of my employer's mdm software as both ultimately boiled down a partition layout that the updater wasn't anticipating, but OS X was unable to rollback and Windows _did_ rollback, but then immediately tried again with reapplying the update and restarting as it was past the "No really we're just going to update to the new feature release now" period.
You could argue the Windows issue is the fault of Samsung's migration assistant or the OS X issue was the fault of my employer's mdm software as both ultimately boiled down a partition layout that the updater wasn't anticipating, but OS X was unable to rollback and Windows _did_ rollback, but then immediately tried again with reapplying the update and restarting as it was past the "No really we're just going to update to the new feature release now" period.
Happened a few times, early Windows 10 days but enough to make me do a full switch.
Not an urban legend, it just happened to a colleague with Windows 10. She is now having to buy a new laptop.
clearly not an arch user
That's the distro with the giant text on the website saying it's a bleeding edge rolling release distro right?
Arch doesn't force auto-updates, so ... try again?
but it does brick
Been there, done that, didn't get a T-shirt but a lot of scorn from IRC
Been there, done that, didn't get a T-shirt but a lot of scorn from IRC
Yeah, but then it is supposed to - you are expected to have knowledge to fix it as a user. And unlike proprietary OSes it gives you legible errors and great logging/debugging tools and a path to downgrade. Last time I had to help my friend troubleshoot his Windows setup all we would get would be an extremely cryptic error code and we solved it by finding a thread on an Italian forum and had to google translate a solution that consisted of creating an arbitrary entry in Windows registry. This is not comparable.
I think the difference is not between legible errors vs none, but how many people who deeply understand computers are in the community. So a community difference instead of a technical one. In Windows land, most folks don't understand it, so most you'll find on the internet is "I reinstalled windows, the problem is gone" and "try Pro Cleaner ^TM 2000, the trial version has some ads but it removed the problem for me. requires E-Mail signup though".
Windows is also far more difficult to debug in the first place. macOS has stuff like the defaults command in the Terminal and verbose mode that give power users the tools to debug issues. Even if the Mac-using community isn't super tech-savvy on average, the architecture of macOS means that you're left with "Something went wrong; please try again later" far less often.
The point is that it won't brick unless the sysadmin does something. Windows will occasionally brick itself with no user interaction.
For some user categories, Linux is simply not a choice, whether you like it or not.
E.g., for musicians. There's Reaper/Bitwig, but you no longer have Live/Cubase/Logic/etc. Your multi-$k audio interface no longer works because its proprietary drivers only work on macos/win too. None of the hundreds of plugins you have work on Linux either. So it's between win/macos most of the time and the choice there is obvious.
E.g., for musicians. There's Reaper/Bitwig, but you no longer have Live/Cubase/Logic/etc. Your multi-$k audio interface no longer works because its proprietary drivers only work on macos/win too. None of the hundreds of plugins you have work on Linux either. So it's between win/macos most of the time and the choice there is obvious.
I have a couple of linux workstations, and currently a Carbon X1 laptop (switched from a macbook air a few weeks ago). On linux reaper works fine with zero config with my steinberg audio interface, and a 2 input behringer mini audio interface as well. The only thing stopping me from installing debian on my thinkpad is the difficulty with connecting MIDI devices in Reaper, and maybe that the VST setup needs messing with WINE. Other than that, the linux experience is vastly superior and lower friction for me. WST makes using windows at all viable for me. It's much nicer than when I looked at running windows last which was admittedly > 15 years ago.
What makes GNOME3 good is it keyboard usability. GNOME is comfortable and fast to be used with the keyboard. For professionals as well as normal people. It is incredible how underestimated the success of GNOME-Shell is outside of ther user base.
GNOME made mistakes with GNOME3 and the removed beloved features and many required options. But getting rid of the flawed Desktop-Metaphor and concentrate on usability improved GNOME a lot. And yes, GNOME is also usable with a pointing device.
Aside from GNOME. For professional users CLI and TUI usage on the terminal is bless and necessity. What is needed are more developers, testers and companies investing into it. The decline of Nokia and their withdraw from Gtk was a huge setback. Then the lost of Sun. And least Canonical helps now again but - years where lost. Canonicals current improvements are significant.
Aside from that. Free software seems to strive always to improve existing solutions when necessary, people see actual problems and want improve them. Within closed-ecosystems this is impossible and you're required to stay within boundaries to survive.
Aside from GNOME. For professional users CLI and TUI usage on the terminal is bless and necessity. What is needed are more developers, testers and companies investing into it. The decline of Nokia and their withdraw from Gtk was a huge setback. Then the lost of Sun. And least Canonical helps now again but - years where lost. Canonicals current improvements are significant.
Aside from that. Free software seems to strive always to improve existing solutions when necessary, people see actual problems and want improve them. Within closed-ecosystems this is impossible and you're required to stay within boundaries to survive.
> Unless you're obsessed with downloading software illegally, it's not an issue in Windows either. I don't remember the last time I had to deal with malware for my +20 of friends using it.
I can't remember the last time I touched one of my friend's computer without seeing any kind of suspicious search bar or fishy "helper" installed. I'm pretty sure this counts as malware.
I can't remember the last time I touched one of my friend's computer without seeing any kind of suspicious search bar or fishy "helper" installed. I'm pretty sure this counts as malware.
Linux being open source is reason enough to prefer it over Windows.
I've never experienced anything close to the stability and performance of a lean Arch build personally. It does a very good job of teaching you up front how your OS works, and how to configure it without dumbing things down for your grandma. Once I understood that, bugs just kinda disappeared, because I wasn't naively misconfiguring things anymore. I find linux pretty well organized and reasonable for most dev tasks. Your OS can be spectacularly powerful for automating things if you just understand it's basic components. It updates when I want it to, it looks the way I want it to, and darn near any operation I can put a name to I've writtent a script/elisp function/systemd service for. I feel limited really only by my own imagination at this point. Maybe the problem is Ubuntu or other such imitation distros, that rob people of that deeper understanding in exchange for a shallow illusion
I have been running Linux on all my personal machines for the last 8 years and I have to say that one thing windows has going for it is it’s graphics system. I have super sensitive eyes and I have to say that even wayland does not cut it when compared to windows. Everywhere else Linux on desktop is either far better or a bit behind but workable
I have very sensitive eyes too. And this is also a problem I've had with Linux on certain systems. My desktop is nothing special. My video card is Nvidia and the main monitor is a Dell running at 75hz. Windows is fine. Every distro I've tried is not. I've checked in Linux to make sure the refresh rate is correct. I've used both the open source driver and the closed source blob for the video card. I have no idea why I don't get eye strain from Windows but I do with Linux.
If anyone knows the answer and has a solution, please let me know. I'd love to dual boot this machine.
If anyone knows the answer and has a solution, please let me know. I'd love to dual boot this machine.
I'm guessing you prefer ClearType over FreeType. Have you tried using macOS on a standard-resolution monitor? It has very different font rendering from either Windows or Linux. If it turns out that font rendering is what makes your eyes strained, you may benefit from a higher-DPI monitor.
If the issue is screen tearing, try Sway or another Wayland compositor. That's always better in my experience.
If the issue is screen tearing, try Sway or another Wayland compositor. That's always better in my experience.
I'm not following; what are your eyes sensitive to / what problem to you perceive in the *nix GUI stack?
Flickering and font rendering
Sounds more like a mis-configuration on desktop environment specific, rather than a problem with Linux or Wayland. I'm using Sway with Wayland and don't experience any of the issues you mention. In fact, I find that it is easier to read than Windows and definitely a lot snappier.
See that is the problem. Sure everything is fine if all I use is sway + alacritty and terminal based apps on a single screen but as soon as I mix in multiple terminals, x11 apps, glitchy hdpi, experience starts to deteriorate quickly
There is a current bug with Chromium that I'm aware of that causes issues if you have windows open on multiple desktops. Other than that I don't have these problems. May I suggest you check out the Arch Wiki for Sway and Wayland for suggestions for configuration.
I used to be on windows. I uninstalled candy crush, bloatware but what can you do. Windows reinstalled it some time later with an update. I have no use for an operating system that doesn't serve my needs but the needs of someone else.
There is no "Linux" operating system. There is Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora and 1001 others. This is the primary reason GUI interface is lacking. So you must resort to command line, 50 years after computer mouse was invented.
I finally decided to try Linux "for real" (no dual booting) on my laptop. I have used it in the past, but for the first time it truly can be said:
The Linux (Gnome) UX is miles ahead of Windows.
I genuinely wish I could have Gnome on Windows.
The Linux (Gnome) UX is miles ahead of Windows.
I genuinely wish I could have Gnome on Windows.
>The Linux (Gnome) UX is miles ahead of Windows.
Does it have filepicker thumbnails yet?
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/233
Does it have filepicker thumbnails yet?
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/233
Grid view in the file chooser? In my Ubuntu 20.04 system, it only supports standard list view with preview pane on the right side of the dialog.
Gnome throws a huge chunk of functionalities away in favor of UX on version 3, which alienates most of their power users but make it easier for new users to jump in with their mac-like ui.
Gnome throws a huge chunk of functionalities away in favor of UX on version 3, which alienates most of their power users but make it easier for new users to jump in with their mac-like ui.
It....really isn't though?
I'm one of those people who never turns their computer off. I've done no changes to gnome other than installing tweaks to bring back minimize buttons.
Still though, every 1-2 days I need to do Alt + F2 and `r` to restart gnome.
I'm one of those people who never turns their computer off. I've done no changes to gnome other than installing tweaks to bring back minimize buttons.
Still though, every 1-2 days I need to do Alt + F2 and `r` to restart gnome.
It is strange to me how different people have different experiences. I wonder how much is hardware / driver related? In my case I have an AMD video card, and my system runs for weeks at a time (I reboot when applying kernel updates is all). Also had very good stability on my Thinkpad X2 Yoga (Gen 2) -- this one with the integrated Intel graphics.
Odd, I'm using PopOS so it might be honestly something Pop is doing to cause that behaviour.
I also just generally have a major issue with the Linux process scheduler (CFS). It definitely doesn't feel like its suited for desktop use.
I also just generally have a major issue with the Linux process scheduler (CFS). It definitely doesn't feel like its suited for desktop use.
I run Fedora, and update to the latest release about a month or two after it is released. Mostly because my job is with RHEL / CentOS, and Fedora keeps me up to date with what will be in the next RHEL major version. However I should correct my previous statement, that I have weird stuff happen with Wayland, and I give it a shot periodically but switch back to X11. (In my case, "weird stuff" is things like desktop screen sharing not working with MS Teams, or having HiDPI scaling interacting badly with older style X apps such as OpenSCAD -- in that case with Wayland the cursor has a hard time grabbing window edges).
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>Finally, because Linux is a ubiquitous server operating system, its security is under constant attack, and Linux desktop users benefit from fixes to the vulnerabilities.
I think this kind of argument works both ways
Attacking servers is harder and probably may give you better "reward" (stolen data), but...
Attacking normal people is easier (I think its fair to assume normal user is worse at computers than e.g trained admin), so you can do it at bigger scale and normal user may not want to sue/find you/call cops meanwhile if you're hacking companies then things are more likely to be very serious.
Thus, both are under constant attacks.
I think this kind of argument works both ways
Attacking servers is harder and probably may give you better "reward" (stolen data), but...
Attacking normal people is easier (I think its fair to assume normal user is worse at computers than e.g trained admin), so you can do it at bigger scale and normal user may not want to sue/find you/call cops meanwhile if you're hacking companies then things are more likely to be very serious.
Thus, both are under constant attacks.
> > Finally, because Linux is a ubiquitous server operating system, its security is under constant attack, and Linux desktop users benefit from fixes to the vulnerabilities.
> Attacking servers is harder and probably may give you better "reward" (stolen data), but Attacking normal people is easier so you can do it at bigger scale...
I think that attacking normal people is easier. I disagree that it scales though. Normal people have huge variances in their systems and the version they run, their network connectivity, their IT savvy, etc. and therefore the kinds of exploits required to break into their home systems will vary a lot.
The variance in commercial systems is probably as high, but who cares since you only need to take down one or two, rather than hundreds or thousands, for equivalent payoff.
The pick-pocket will make a million dollars more slowly than the bank robber.
> Attacking servers is harder and probably may give you better "reward" (stolen data), but Attacking normal people is easier so you can do it at bigger scale...
I think that attacking normal people is easier. I disagree that it scales though. Normal people have huge variances in their systems and the version they run, their network connectivity, their IT savvy, etc. and therefore the kinds of exploits required to break into their home systems will vary a lot.
The variance in commercial systems is probably as high, but who cares since you only need to take down one or two, rather than hundreds or thousands, for equivalent payoff.
The pick-pocket will make a million dollars more slowly than the bank robber.
Also, with the proliferation of Clouds (and thus Azure), fixes for attacks targeting Windows (Server) also benefit Windows (Client).
I actually have Linux as my main work OS ( Linux mint ) and have been enjoying it. It’s user friendly enough to get started and if you can read instructions, not that difficult to install software ( even when some may be more difficult than others... Docker on Mint, for example ).
I actually prefer it to Mac, but there are some programs that I just can’t use on Linux. And I now use Windows as my gaming OS.
So while I wish I could do everything on Linux, I’m happy to switch as needed. Linux is my home work station, Mac for the cafe and some other things, and Windows for everything else.
I actually prefer it to Mac, but there are some programs that I just can’t use on Linux. And I now use Windows as my gaming OS.
So while I wish I could do everything on Linux, I’m happy to switch as needed. Linux is my home work station, Mac for the cafe and some other things, and Windows for everything else.
I've been using Linux as my daily driver for about 22 years now.
It's been great for me all the time, though, I do miss GTK and Gnome before they made it suck. I ran mate for a while, but now I've just given up and run i3.
That said, Linux is almost for everyone now, at least if they get someone else to set it up for them.
The single biggest problem is that there is still not one document format to rule them all, and most people use PDF (can't be edited) or Microsoft (can't be rendered correctly and have limited support in other programs) formats. For most things, openoffice or libreoffice can get the job done, but for things that need to actually look the same, or where one needs to fill out the "formula" it often falls short, and then we have to resort to a VM with Windows inside it..
Then there's battery life, at least for EVERY laptop I've ever owned, or serviced, Linux requires a fair amount of tweaking, and then it (or some software running on it) still results in a worse-off battery life than a stock install of Windows.
That said, there are so many good things about Linux and the tools on it, that it's definitely worth the shortcomings, it's still the best OS for me.
That said, Linux is almost for everyone now, at least if they get someone else to set it up for them.
The single biggest problem is that there is still not one document format to rule them all, and most people use PDF (can't be edited) or Microsoft (can't be rendered correctly and have limited support in other programs) formats. For most things, openoffice or libreoffice can get the job done, but for things that need to actually look the same, or where one needs to fill out the "formula" it often falls short, and then we have to resort to a VM with Windows inside it..
Then there's battery life, at least for EVERY laptop I've ever owned, or serviced, Linux requires a fair amount of tweaking, and then it (or some software running on it) still results in a worse-off battery life than a stock install of Windows.
That said, there are so many good things about Linux and the tools on it, that it's definitely worth the shortcomings, it's still the best OS for me.
Disclaimer: I love Linux. I also like Windows (it's extremely solid).
RE path limitations. I actively -- and have for many years -- use paths much longer that 25x characters. Including in Windows Explorer. I can't recall the last time I had a issue, though IIRC there is some sort of operation (that I guess I never use?) via Explorer where one can run into issues.
The main issue, and it exists on Linux as well is this in code:
char path[MAX_PATH]; // or equiv
In Linux this generally gives you a 4k buffer so you're MUCH less likely to hit the issue of course.
RE path limitations. I actively -- and have for many years -- use paths much longer that 25x characters. Including in Windows Explorer. I can't recall the last time I had a issue, though IIRC there is some sort of operation (that I guess I never use?) via Explorer where one can run into issues.
The main issue, and it exists on Linux as well is this in code:
char path[MAX_PATH]; // or equiv
In Linux this generally gives you a 4k buffer so you're MUCH less likely to hit the issue of course.
No telemetry.
No overriding auto-update settings.
No license to pay.
No overriding auto-update settings.
No license to pay.
As long as it's not ubuntu for the first two points
Saying Ubuntu has telemetry like Windows is shaky at best. Ubuntu asks you whether you want it, doesn't mandate it for people who don't buy enterprise licenses, and doesn't sneak in new kinds of telemetry when you already disabled what's there.
Saying Ubuntu overrides auto-update settings is just false. If you turn off automatic updates, nothing will automatically update.
Saying Ubuntu overrides auto-update settings is just false. If you turn off automatic updates, nothing will automatically update.
This isn't quite true anymore. Snap software will still automatically update even if system updates are off. You have to either edit your hosts file to block the snap domain or disable the snapd.service in a command line to prevent the automatic updates.
Good thing Linux offers choice, and if you are not okay you can just change your distro.
Mind telling us how to disable auto updating in snaps (or for a specific snap)? You've just solved a huge issue for the ubuntu community
I acknowledge that they don't make this easy, but at least there is a way to do it: by downloading a snap manually and then sideloading it from the local file, it won't ever automatically update: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for...
The solution is just not to use snaps. Snap is trash. Consider PPAs if you need the most recent version of a particular piece of software.
In my experience PPAs often break on upgrades
Traditionally there is some manual work to do in updating ppas to point to the new release but apparently assistance also exists for the lazy
https://askubuntu.com/questions/42895/is-there-a-tool-to-upd...
You can also set RELEASE_UPGRADER_ALLOW_THIRD_PARTY=1 before running the updater to allow third party repos to remain enabled during upgrade.
https://askubuntu.com/questions/42895/is-there-a-tool-to-upd...
You can also set RELEASE_UPGRADER_ALLOW_THIRD_PARTY=1 before running the updater to allow third party repos to remain enabled during upgrade.
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Even if Canonical ever become evil, we have distributions and it is open source. You can change any part, a lot of distributions built on top of Ubuntu. For example Google can disable uBlock in Chromium, some would switch to Ungoogled, Iridium, some to Opera, Brave, Vivaldi.
Imagine if Windows, macOS, Google services were easy to fork.
Imagine if Windows, macOS, Google services were easy to fork.
Hi everyone, original author of the document here.
I was confused about why there were so many new Github issues filed, and sure enough I did a search on Hacker News and found it posted here.
This was inspired by my annoyance with the prevailing tenor of Windows vs. Linux comparisons at the time, which consisted largely of unsupported generalizations like "Linux is about choice" or undecidable debates like whether the GIMP was an acceptable replacement for Adobe Photoshop, or if LibreOffice was a good enough Microsoft Office. I wanted to go in a different direction and examine how technical design decisions in the kernels affected everyday use, which is why there's so much time spent on filenames.
Ultimately, though, it's just a highly selective overview of the operating systems at the time, with a few historical asides. (I'm particularly proud of digging up the part about case-insensitive filenames using less RAM in the DEC SIXBIT encoding.)
I haven't updated it significantly since 2014, so it is probably out of date in spots. However, much of it is still holds true today. I continue to use both Linux and Windows on a daily basis, and I still occasionally run into the same old problems with path lengths, filename restrictions, and file locking semantics.
I was confused about why there were so many new Github issues filed, and sure enough I did a search on Hacker News and found it posted here.
This was inspired by my annoyance with the prevailing tenor of Windows vs. Linux comparisons at the time, which consisted largely of unsupported generalizations like "Linux is about choice" or undecidable debates like whether the GIMP was an acceptable replacement for Adobe Photoshop, or if LibreOffice was a good enough Microsoft Office. I wanted to go in a different direction and examine how technical design decisions in the kernels affected everyday use, which is why there's so much time spent on filenames.
Ultimately, though, it's just a highly selective overview of the operating systems at the time, with a few historical asides. (I'm particularly proud of digging up the part about case-insensitive filenames using less RAM in the DEC SIXBIT encoding.)
I haven't updated it significantly since 2014, so it is probably out of date in spots. However, much of it is still holds true today. I continue to use both Linux and Windows on a daily basis, and I still occasionally run into the same old problems with path lengths, filename restrictions, and file locking semantics.
I use both and prefer Linux. In order for me to stand Windows I have to run these two programs to remove all the crap.
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://gist.github.com/telamon/85fbfb0caa482786483bd2b8d3fc...
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://gist.github.com/telamon/85fbfb0caa482786483bd2b8d3fc...
I use Linux, Windows, and macOS basically every day.
All three have pros and cons.
I use Linux at work because I love i3 and am willing to put up with other quirks to have it.
I use Windows for games, Lightroom, etc.
I use macOS for compiling iOS apps (work) and in bed/on the couch at home for browsing (because I have an extra Macbook leftover from a consulting gig).
I use whatever tool works best for the job I'm doing.
No one OS is better at everything than another. They all have their strengths and their weakness.
All three have pros and cons.
I use Linux at work because I love i3 and am willing to put up with other quirks to have it.
I use Windows for games, Lightroom, etc.
I use macOS for compiling iOS apps (work) and in bed/on the couch at home for browsing (because I have an extra Macbook leftover from a consulting gig).
I use whatever tool works best for the job I'm doing.
No one OS is better at everything than another. They all have their strengths and their weakness.
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I don't want more people using Linux. Linux is great the way it is today. More users will make everything worse. Guys please stay on Windows.
I've been running KDE Neon on a NUC for several years now, and has been quite happy with that as a secondary PC.
However, as much as I like it, I've not even tried to run it on my primary desktop due to the lack of a viable RDP alternative.
The irony here is that with Microsoft implementing RDP support in WSL2, the thing that might finally remove the key obstacle might render the entire point moot.
However, as much as I like it, I've not even tried to run it on my primary desktop due to the lack of a viable RDP alternative.
The irony here is that with Microsoft implementing RDP support in WSL2, the thing that might finally remove the key obstacle might render the entire point moot.
NoMachine works great here. Enable screen blanking setting or not depending on needs.
Does it technically work? Yes.
Does it work as well as RDP? Not even close.
With RDP I get a near-local experience. With NoMachine, VLC, whatever else it's very, very obvious I'm working remotely.
Maybe it's my setup, but I've tried many times over many years with different hardware on both ends and internet connections.
Does it work as well as RDP? Not even close.
With RDP I get a near-local experience. With NoMachine, VLC, whatever else it's very, very obvious I'm working remotely.
Maybe it's my setup, but I've tried many times over many years with different hardware on both ends and internet connections.
Hmm, fwiw I think all my boxes with NoMachine have GPUs as well, that may make a difference in the quality for encoding/decoding.
If I go full screen it's hard for me to distinguish local vs remote, even watching videos, other than occasionally can see video compression artifacts per the connection quality.
Do like that I can blank screen on login, lock screen on logout, similar to RDP, unlike xrdp and others where it's a new session when you connect, you can't resume a session locally (e.g. work half in office, half at home, same session).
If I go full screen it's hard for me to distinguish local vs remote, even watching videos, other than occasionally can see video compression artifacts per the connection quality.
Do like that I can blank screen on login, lock screen on logout, similar to RDP, unlike xrdp and others where it's a new session when you connect, you can't resume a session locally (e.g. work half in office, half at home, same session).
Hmm, guess I'll have to try again. When I tried last time, a year ago or so now, the speed was comparable to VNC. The machine I tried accessing then was a i5 NUC which when used locally with KDE Neon is rather spiffy.
Resuming locally is also a must-have feature, so yeah that eliminates a lot of contenders on Linux.
Resuming locally is also a must-have feature, so yeah that eliminates a lot of contenders on Linux.
Lack of proper RDP-like experience is also a dealbreaker for me.
I also switched to Linux after using Windows for 10 years https://medium.com/swlh/why-i-switched-to-linux-after-using-...
About ten years ago, I thought to myself, "Man, if I just reallocated all the time I spend fighting against Windows towards learning and customizing a Linux install, I'd have both a functioning OS, and an OS that I actually like!". I haven't looked back.
It used to take work and knowledge to use Linux as a daily driver, like you would Windows. But Linux has matured, and now all of the things you expect to work just do work.
And, aside from doing any .NET projects, EVERY programming endeavor I've worked on in Linux has been an absolute breeze. 98% of the time, everything I need is just an "apt install" away, configures correctly, and runs correctly. There is no reason for Windows to exist anymore.
It used to take work and knowledge to use Linux as a daily driver, like you would Windows. But Linux has matured, and now all of the things you expect to work just do work.
And, aside from doing any .NET projects, EVERY programming endeavor I've worked on in Linux has been an absolute breeze. 98% of the time, everything I need is just an "apt install" away, configures correctly, and runs correctly. There is no reason for Windows to exist anymore.
I hope I can move to linux right now, but I just bought Ableton Live, and have to occasionally use stuff like Affinity Designer, or Adobe. Open source GUI software that runs on Linux generally does not have good UI/UX (for good ones I can only think of Blender), and big commercial softwares generally does not support Linux, being trapped between sucks..
But still, I'm looking for a decent distro that has minimal setup, very customizable, in active dev, and have decent graphics / audio driver for game dev, for a possible future shift. I haven't done much research yet but am currently looking at KISS and Arch, if you know more please let me know thanks!
But still, I'm looking for a decent distro that has minimal setup, very customizable, in active dev, and have decent graphics / audio driver for game dev, for a possible future shift. I haven't done much research yet but am currently looking at KISS and Arch, if you know more please let me know thanks!
You can try pop!_os
I had to LOL a tiny bit when I opened up the webpage and found the actual name of the article is Objective reasons to prefer Linux to Windows. I wonder why that word got left out of the HN title submission... :^)
My experience with linux has been great so far
I started out with ubuntu and then switched to manjaro with i3
Overall I loved i3 window manager as it made things much easier and keyboard centric
But after using macbook for a while I am leaning towards it as it works like a charm and I can do everything what I did on my linux.
Linux is great and one thing I like about it is that it’s highly customizable but sometimes you don’t wanna be spending countless hours customizing your environment you just want something that just works that’s just my opinion
Overall my experience has been great with linux but sadly i can’t run adobe suite on it :( So I decided to get a MacBook
Would love to hear everyone else’s experiences
Overall I loved i3 window manager as it made things much easier and keyboard centric
But after using macbook for a while I am leaning towards it as it works like a charm and I can do everything what I did on my linux.
Linux is great and one thing I like about it is that it’s highly customizable but sometimes you don’t wanna be spending countless hours customizing your environment you just want something that just works that’s just my opinion
Overall my experience has been great with linux but sadly i can’t run adobe suite on it :( So I decided to get a MacBook
Would love to hear everyone else’s experiences
Trying to convince someone to use an OS seems so pointless. People who care about it already have strong opinions on the topic and everybody else just uses whatever comes with the machine they decided to buy.
For Linux users, it’s all about vendor support. More Linux users means that it actually becomes worth it for manufacturers to provide Linux support for their hardware.
No more blue screens
Not having to reinstall Windows every 6 months just to keep it running fast
Not having to reinstall Windows every 6 months just to keep it running fast
2005 was over 15 years ago.
I encountered the same problems when I had a Windows 10 machine in 2016 - every couple of months the thing would shit itself for no apparent reason. The only thing I could do was copy all my personal files to an external disk and reinstall the OS.
My next computer was a bit more stable - but I still had a few nasty scares. Installed Mint and never looked back ;)
My next computer was a bit more stable - but I still had a few nasty scares. Installed Mint and never looked back ;)
True. But 2020 is right now.
My reasons were that I had a better CLI and dev tools for the things I'm working on. I don't think I care about telemetry etc.
I still use Windows for games and stuff, but Windows terminal emulators mostly seem to suck and I spend a lot of time in there.
Either way the platform wars are over. Electron + WSL made them irrelevant. On Linux I have access to every modern app I want. This has been fantastic. All the guys who championed web standards and the web as an application platform should feel proud of being visionaries. Well done.
I still use Windows for games and stuff, but Windows terminal emulators mostly seem to suck and I spend a lot of time in there.
Either way the platform wars are over. Electron + WSL made them irrelevant. On Linux I have access to every modern app I want. This has been fantastic. All the guys who championed web standards and the web as an application platform should feel proud of being visionaries. Well done.
> In principle, UTF-16 would have the advantage of constant time addressing of single characters, but in practice most programming languages do not provide data types for this, with the exception of Go and rust.
No it wouldn't - UTF-16 is a variable-length encoding of Unicode codepoints just like UTF-8. Not to mention that what most normal people think of as "characters", i.e. grapheme clusters, are variable length even with UTF-32.
No it wouldn't - UTF-16 is a variable-length encoding of Unicode codepoints just like UTF-8. Not to mention that what most normal people think of as "characters", i.e. grapheme clusters, are variable length even with UTF-32.
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Interesting article. I personally think that some of the advantages are easily solvable, like the remote thing.
From my point of view, case sensitivity in filenames is not an advantage but a disadvantage.
Why would I want to have "presentation to management.ppt" and "Presentation to management.ppt"?
Same for some of the restrictions in file names. I never found any problem. Maybe it is because I write in english and spanish.
From my point of view, case sensitivity in filenames is not an advantage but a disadvantage.
Why would I want to have "presentation to management.ppt" and "Presentation to management.ppt"?
Same for some of the restrictions in file names. I never found any problem. Maybe it is because I write in english and spanish.
Interesting and detailed, I did notice the similarity's between RT-11 and CPM in my first Job.
And I do still vaguely recall RADIX 50
And I do still vaguely recall RADIX 50
Bash is more intuitive than powershell, not saying powershell is bad. It's just a might beast.
But nix has vi, native package managers and doesn't need a GUI most of the time. Saying that, I don't mind hyper-v and it's VBS technology.
If you need to run a business use Windows, if you need to host infrastructure or run an app...use nix.
But nix has vi, native package managers and doesn't need a GUI most of the time. Saying that, I don't mind hyper-v and it's VBS technology.
If you need to run a business use Windows, if you need to host infrastructure or run an app...use nix.
I find this whole Linux vs Windows thing pointless. I use both and have no real problems with either for as long as I do not try to choose only one. Each has strength and weaknesses and not necessarily technical. I use computers to make living and those non technical reasons are just important for me.
Linux, it just doesnt work straight from the box. To even install the most basic thing like wifi is a long search through Google and trial and error. Still doesnt work properly by the way. By any advice you find online, oh doesnt it work, try sudo in front of the command.
For work I use Mac. It is where native MS office apps intersect with a unix terminal. I really think your choice of OS is down to usecase. But linux often requires much more patience than windows or mac to get started. Windows update is still terrible though!
It is one of these discussions that simple don't matter. Firstly Linux can be an optimal answer to certain problems and also curiosity can give you different perspective. However the issue is that smart people in certain parts of this in industry constantly fall for these ideological traps that imply paths to glory, while actually they propose tradeoffs, at best. In reality these are just choices that have marginal impact for the vast majority of people and projects. These types of discussions really crumble on themselves when you ask the correct questions like: "Is it the best way to spend my time as a developer in order to improve myself" or the blatant "Will using Linux on its own bring me closer to becoming a tech billioire"?
Spend your time well, people. Solve real issues, have real impact.
Spend your time well, people. Solve real issues, have real impact.
From a usability perspective I don't really care anymore which OS I have to use. All software I use for work runs in the browser (gdocs, gsheets, gmail, cloud9, slack, discord, asana, zoom, meet)
Only some games and ableton live are missing from some platforms.
Only some games and ableton live are missing from some platforms.
Reasons to prefer Windows 10 over Linux:
https://miscdotgeek.com/why-windows-10-is-my-desktop-os-of-c...
Heresy
Impressive that this whole list doesn't matter really on a day to day basis.
My chrome, lightroom and games (a lot) work very well on my windows desktop.
On my nas, freebsd is doing a great job.
My servers? Ubuntu doing what it does best.
MacOS on my work laptop; Also not bad.
My chrome, lightroom and games (a lot) work very well on my windows desktop.
On my nas, freebsd is doing a great job.
My servers? Ubuntu doing what it does best.
MacOS on my work laptop; Also not bad.
Linux is great BUT it has a lot of UX design problems every time I have to use it.
There are many factual errors in the text (config files, chocolatey not having moderation or that its worse then linux repos (its much better and more up to date then majority, even Arch), etc.).
Most others are not a benefit, just preference.
Many are simply omitted where Windows is better (such as MUCH more software, easy of use - for example no automatic mounting on many linux distros of usb drives by default in 2020 is simply insane, much better support all around from vendors, just to mention some).
Some basic and most important stuff are not there, such as difference between Windows and Linux process or difference between PowerShell and Bash.
Some thing are not very comparable but still involve performance differences (for example Windows role based security vs very limited linux default g/u/o security)
TLDR, another linux-is-better-then-windows article that is poorly done, although it pretends its not, by giving tones of references mostly for irrelevant stuff and talking about technological decisions that have almost 0 relevance for most of the people (importance of having API calls in unicode 16 vs 8 to end user is less then 0)
Lets be honest - there is 0 technical benefit regarding what OS you use today, the only difference is:
1. Windows costs money
2. Community
Unless you use thousands of containers point 1 is negliable for most services especially on Windows 10 which you can run perpetually in trial mode. Point 2. is not however, on linux open source mindeset and hacking culture is favored which is something that is for me personally much better (although I still use Windows as my main OS). Windows community just started to go along in that direction, but it will probalby take another decade to come to the level where Linux is now (if ever).
Most others are not a benefit, just preference.
Many are simply omitted where Windows is better (such as MUCH more software, easy of use - for example no automatic mounting on many linux distros of usb drives by default in 2020 is simply insane, much better support all around from vendors, just to mention some).
Some basic and most important stuff are not there, such as difference between Windows and Linux process or difference between PowerShell and Bash.
Some thing are not very comparable but still involve performance differences (for example Windows role based security vs very limited linux default g/u/o security)
TLDR, another linux-is-better-then-windows article that is poorly done, although it pretends its not, by giving tones of references mostly for irrelevant stuff and talking about technological decisions that have almost 0 relevance for most of the people (importance of having API calls in unicode 16 vs 8 to end user is less then 0)
Lets be honest - there is 0 technical benefit regarding what OS you use today, the only difference is:
1. Windows costs money
2. Community
Unless you use thousands of containers point 1 is negliable for most services especially on Windows 10 which you can run perpetually in trial mode. Point 2. is not however, on linux open source mindeset and hacking culture is favored which is something that is for me personally much better (although I still use Windows as my main OS). Windows community just started to go along in that direction, but it will probalby take another decade to come to the level where Linux is now (if ever).
Lets be honest - there is 0 technical benefit regarding what OS you use today
Then you're being dishonest. There are many technical reasons to choose Linux over Windows. On mobile so will keep it short.
My desktop lacks Hyper-V. I went years thinking I can't run Docker because of this fact. Turns out the PC has no such limitation when running Linux.
Years ago, tried using Meteor. It was practically unusable as I kept getting error after error. Multiple roundtrips searching and a ton of Windows-specific GitHub issues later, I gave up on the framework.
There are plenty of frameworks and dev tools that are an afterthought for Windows. This, of course, is due to Windows requiring often heavy extras to be compatible whereas Unix systems simply just work. Plenty devs just don't Care that much whether their software runs on Windows. Those that do only consider it months, years even, after releasing for Mac and Linux.
Also relevant: MS have released new software or updates to macOS first. That is a testament to how poor their OS is when a vendor fails to release software primarily targeting its OS.
Then you're being dishonest. There are many technical reasons to choose Linux over Windows. On mobile so will keep it short.
My desktop lacks Hyper-V. I went years thinking I can't run Docker because of this fact. Turns out the PC has no such limitation when running Linux.
Years ago, tried using Meteor. It was practically unusable as I kept getting error after error. Multiple roundtrips searching and a ton of Windows-specific GitHub issues later, I gave up on the framework.
There are plenty of frameworks and dev tools that are an afterthought for Windows. This, of course, is due to Windows requiring often heavy extras to be compatible whereas Unix systems simply just work. Plenty devs just don't Care that much whether their software runs on Windows. Those that do only consider it months, years even, after releasing for Mac and Linux.
Also relevant: MS have released new software or updates to macOS first. That is a testament to how poor their OS is when a vendor fails to release software primarily targeting its OS.
> My desktop lacks Hyper-V. I went years thinking I can't run Docker because of this fact. Turns out the PC has no such limitation when running Linux.
You don't have such limitation on Windows Server either. Mac OS has the same limitation. Its strange to think about this the way you do, it was originally linux tech, its like complaining Windows Explorer is not available on linux.
> Years ago, tried using Meteor. It was practically unusable as I kept getting error after error. Multiple roundtrips searching and a ton of Windows-specific GitHub issues later, I gave up on the framework.
There were always tools that were Windows or Linux specific. You should research your tech more in order not to finish into that trap.
> There are plenty of frameworks and dev tools that are an afterthought for Windows. This, of course, is due to Windows requiring often heavy extras to be compatible whereas Unix systems simply just work.
Not sure where you got that, that Unix systems simply just work. I had never had a Linux or Unix that just worked in last 20 years of experience with all OSes.
Almost everything just works as long as you fit its niche. Once you need specific stuff, every OS needs to be customized and if it works in first iteration, you remember that day like the God looked at you.
> Plenty devs just don't Care that much whether their software runs on Windows.
Its also the opposite.
> This, of course, is due to Windows requiring often heavy extras to be compatible
Whaaat ? Windows itself is compatible with older self, its not requirement for apps.
> MS have released new software or updates to macOS first.
Whaat ?
You don't have such limitation on Windows Server either. Mac OS has the same limitation. Its strange to think about this the way you do, it was originally linux tech, its like complaining Windows Explorer is not available on linux.
> Years ago, tried using Meteor. It was practically unusable as I kept getting error after error. Multiple roundtrips searching and a ton of Windows-specific GitHub issues later, I gave up on the framework.
There were always tools that were Windows or Linux specific. You should research your tech more in order not to finish into that trap.
> There are plenty of frameworks and dev tools that are an afterthought for Windows. This, of course, is due to Windows requiring often heavy extras to be compatible whereas Unix systems simply just work.
Not sure where you got that, that Unix systems simply just work. I had never had a Linux or Unix that just worked in last 20 years of experience with all OSes.
Almost everything just works as long as you fit its niche. Once you need specific stuff, every OS needs to be customized and if it works in first iteration, you remember that day like the God looked at you.
> Plenty devs just don't Care that much whether their software runs on Windows.
Its also the opposite.
> This, of course, is due to Windows requiring often heavy extras to be compatible
Whaaat ? Windows itself is compatible with older self, its not requirement for apps.
> MS have released new software or updates to macOS first.
Whaat ?
It lists file system case sensitivity as a pro, which it isn't. Case sensitivity is the default you get when you don't think about the users, and windows chose the opposite because it's better.
Ignoring the issue of which is better, windows isn't even uniform across the OS in its filesystem case-sensitivity. You can insert identical-other-than-case files with some kernel calls and break everything when you try to modify them later with the more common file interfaces.
>You can insert identical-other-than-case files with some kernel calls and break everything when you try to modify them later with the more common file interfaces.
that doesn't seem like a realistic scenario, nor is it comparable to explaining to granny that "Cookie recipe.txt" and "cookie recipe.txt" are two separate files.
that doesn't seem like a realistic scenario, nor is it comparable to explaining to granny that "Cookie recipe.txt" and "cookie recipe.txt" are two separate files.
You just need to modify a directory with two different programs using different windows files apis (and create case-insensitive duplicates while doing so). How common that is will depend on how often an end user accidentally tries to create duplicate files (if that's infrequent then a completely case-sensitive system would also only cause issues infrequently), and in the proportion of programs using the different windows file apis.
I think you're right that we would expect that to happen only rarely, but it seems implausible to expect that there's an entire windows file api with zero usage.
Side-note: I don't think explaining "Cookie recipe.txt" and "cookie recipe.txt" being different would be thaat hard -- if they look different then they are different. As long as granny doesn't have to worry about zero-width whitespace or other garbage in her file names then that's a good enough rule of thumb.
I think you're right that we would expect that to happen only rarely, but it seems implausible to expect that there's an entire windows file api with zero usage.
Side-note: I don't think explaining "Cookie recipe.txt" and "cookie recipe.txt" being different would be thaat hard -- if they look different then they are different. As long as granny doesn't have to worry about zero-width whitespace or other garbage in her file names then that's a good enough rule of thumb.
I find case sensitivity to be a pro. Once on a case-insensitive OS I tried to rename a file by changing the case on a character and it didn't work...I think it might have been MacOS. Anyway, I simply don't understand how case-insensitivity has any benefit. It's actually quite annoying and a pet peeve of mine.
This seems reasonable if you are considering only English speakers sharing files with other English speakers.
https://www.b-list.org/weblog/2018/nov/26/case/
https://www.b-list.org/weblog/2018/nov/26/case/
I can agree that system case sensitivity is the wrong choice for probably the vast majority of users, but at the same time it's the right choice for me.
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Windows as primary OS with WSL is perfect fit for my work.
I hope WSL will be better in the future. May be someday people will not compare Windows and Linux when they have WSL on Windows machine.
I hope WSL will be better in the future. May be someday people will not compare Windows and Linux when they have WSL on Windows machine.
[deleted]
The article is too pedantic to the point of impracticality. Objective reason to live 200m underwater: there is no polluted air there.
I have been using both Linux and Windows for the past 25 years having both Linux and Windows machine as my primary machine for varying lengths of time and for various reasons.
I currently use Linux as my primary machine on both my PC where I do remote work and on my Thinkpad which is serving as backup and mobile workspace.
The Windows is on a company-issued laptop that I do not use at all and in a VM which is dedicated solely for carrying the invasive stuff that monitors my every keystroke and executed application that my company thinks is good idea to have on my private machine to protect company interests. Hopefully, they never learn to figure out they are running this in a VM.
When I use Windows as my desktop I feel powerless. If something breaks, there is no recourse other than trying stuff I read on the Internet. On Linux I can automate pretty much everything and pretty much everything is open to me and the only thing that limits me is how much time I am comfortable spending on solving my issue.
I hate that Windows does things on my own machine that I am not able to stop or audit. Should I resign myself to giving away my privacy to another company? I think not.
I hate that I am absolutely unable to create an environment on Windows that will still work, without maintenance, in months or years. I do electronics design and embedded development in my free time and I just can't be spending time figuring out what changed in my environment every time I go back to modify code for some gadget I did a year or five ago. On Linux, I just create a VM for every single project, set up my toolchain, turn off any automated updates and then back up the entire image to unfreeze it when I need it.
I find it funny, that Linux had an app store with huge selection of free, powerful application, ready for immediate installation and use, and Microsoft required decades and Apple and Google to finally figure it out and still fail to make it usable. I like the fact that I can bring in seconds a piece of software to be immediately available to me without having to find the installation package, worry about custody of the source of the package or that it might be doing some malicious thing to my PC, worry about how it will pollute and slow down my machine even if it is installed, and so on. I do work on my PC, maintaining it is not my full time job.
I still work on Debian Unstable that I installed ca 2001 which I successfully maintained over the years. The first PC that it worked on had Duron 600 on it (does anybody still remember it?) and 20GB of disk space which was quite a lot at the time. If everything goes well it will see another AMD CPU next year when it becames available next year. I just can't imagine doing the same with Windows. All Windows desktops I had required full re-install after couple of years of use.
It was true in the past that you had to use Windows to use any serious tools. That is no longer the case, most of the time. You can even play games (Steam works though not all games are designed to play on Linux). The tools that don't work on Linux are no longer enough to force me to misery of working on a Windows desktop as my primary one.
Granted, Linux is not fun either. The Gnome is buggy as hell, has trouble with 2 4k monitors. The Nvidia drivers aren't nearly as stable as on Windows and Chrome experiences issues every time I wake up my machine from suspend. The machine sometimes locks and I did not have time to debug it and I just need to press reboot button. Still, beats Windows.
I currently use Linux as my primary machine on both my PC where I do remote work and on my Thinkpad which is serving as backup and mobile workspace.
The Windows is on a company-issued laptop that I do not use at all and in a VM which is dedicated solely for carrying the invasive stuff that monitors my every keystroke and executed application that my company thinks is good idea to have on my private machine to protect company interests. Hopefully, they never learn to figure out they are running this in a VM.
When I use Windows as my desktop I feel powerless. If something breaks, there is no recourse other than trying stuff I read on the Internet. On Linux I can automate pretty much everything and pretty much everything is open to me and the only thing that limits me is how much time I am comfortable spending on solving my issue.
I hate that Windows does things on my own machine that I am not able to stop or audit. Should I resign myself to giving away my privacy to another company? I think not.
I hate that I am absolutely unable to create an environment on Windows that will still work, without maintenance, in months or years. I do electronics design and embedded development in my free time and I just can't be spending time figuring out what changed in my environment every time I go back to modify code for some gadget I did a year or five ago. On Linux, I just create a VM for every single project, set up my toolchain, turn off any automated updates and then back up the entire image to unfreeze it when I need it.
I find it funny, that Linux had an app store with huge selection of free, powerful application, ready for immediate installation and use, and Microsoft required decades and Apple and Google to finally figure it out and still fail to make it usable. I like the fact that I can bring in seconds a piece of software to be immediately available to me without having to find the installation package, worry about custody of the source of the package or that it might be doing some malicious thing to my PC, worry about how it will pollute and slow down my machine even if it is installed, and so on. I do work on my PC, maintaining it is not my full time job.
I still work on Debian Unstable that I installed ca 2001 which I successfully maintained over the years. The first PC that it worked on had Duron 600 on it (does anybody still remember it?) and 20GB of disk space which was quite a lot at the time. If everything goes well it will see another AMD CPU next year when it becames available next year. I just can't imagine doing the same with Windows. All Windows desktops I had required full re-install after couple of years of use.
It was true in the past that you had to use Windows to use any serious tools. That is no longer the case, most of the time. You can even play games (Steam works though not all games are designed to play on Linux). The tools that don't work on Linux are no longer enough to force me to misery of working on a Windows desktop as my primary one.
Granted, Linux is not fun either. The Gnome is buggy as hell, has trouble with 2 4k monitors. The Nvidia drivers aren't nearly as stable as on Windows and Chrome experiences issues every time I wake up my machine from suspend. The machine sometimes locks and I did not have time to debug it and I just need to press reboot button. Still, beats Windows.
its very amusing to me to see people say "its great it just works!" and in the same breath explain in detail all of the intricacies they had to go through to get basic stuff to work.
i use linux on a desktop every day but cannot even after trying for many years, develop blinders for all of the shitty parts
i use linux on a desktop every day but cannot even after trying for many years, develop blinders for all of the shitty parts
I don't get why it's either one or the other; nothing will tick all the boxes. Just run both side-by-side
Gaming on Linux really got very good in the last few years. And that contributed to a bigger influx of Linux users.
Let me know when I can watch Netflix on it in reasonable resolution.
Until then it’ll be mainly a server OS for me
Until then it’ll be mainly a server OS for me
Objective reasons to prefer anything else over Linux: Security. Linux is now the least secure desktop OS available, with limited sandboxing and no provision for checking binary signatures. It's 2020, the net is a dangerous place, and if you want to avoid malware, signature checks must be done on everything from the bootloader up through the user application code.
Few windows users get their software from the Microsoft store where store apps would benefit from sand boxing in the first place. Instead they cruise the web with their web browser hoping that the first link on google for "foo" is the official source of foo not a link to one contaminated with malware. Good thing the odds are pretty good unless foo costs money in which case they are searching for "pirate foo" and now 99% of the links are in fact malware.
Once they find the exe or msi of their choosing is found they quickly double click on it and answer yes to any prompt that comes up regardless of whether it asked for admin rights or to sell their kids to a veal farm.
Fortunately they have an antivirus to catch them if they do anything stupid. Unfortunately so do malware authors who will carefully craft their wares to bypass such protections while the antivirus will spastically check every file that is opened and everything the computer wants to do before it lets it do it catching only the dumbest malware while ruining performance.
Meanwhile Linux users can get all or virtually all software from a single app store which actually contains all or most of what they need. Not installing malware remains a vastly easier solution than trying to contain malware you are stupid enough to install.
Once they find the exe or msi of their choosing is found they quickly double click on it and answer yes to any prompt that comes up regardless of whether it asked for admin rights or to sell their kids to a veal farm.
Fortunately they have an antivirus to catch them if they do anything stupid. Unfortunately so do malware authors who will carefully craft their wares to bypass such protections while the antivirus will spastically check every file that is opened and everything the computer wants to do before it lets it do it catching only the dumbest malware while ruining performance.
Meanwhile Linux users can get all or virtually all software from a single app store which actually contains all or most of what they need. Not installing malware remains a vastly easier solution than trying to contain malware you are stupid enough to install.
> Linux is now the least secure desktop OS available,
... less secure than Haiku, the OS that runs everything as root?
> with limited sandboxing
With limited default sandboxing (snaps, flatpaks), and assorted add-on options (firejail, bubblewrap), in which respect it's... exactly like NT (sandboxie) and Darwin?
> and no provision for checking binary signatures
I am aware of no package manager which fails to check signatures before installing. They may exist, but at least the major players do.
... less secure than Haiku, the OS that runs everything as root?
> with limited sandboxing
With limited default sandboxing (snaps, flatpaks), and assorted add-on options (firejail, bubblewrap), in which respect it's... exactly like NT (sandboxie) and Darwin?
> and no provision for checking binary signatures
I am aware of no package manager which fails to check signatures before installing. They may exist, but at least the major players do.
> Linux is now the least secure desktop OS available
[citation needed]
> limited sandboxing
seccomp? Namespaces? What exactly do you want Linux to be able to sandbox that it can't?
> no provision for checking binary signatures
Bootloaders already enforce this for the kernel, and the kernel can enforce it for its own modules. Userlands are free to enforce it for userspace programs (e.g., how Android requires APKs to be signed).
[citation needed]
> limited sandboxing
seccomp? Namespaces? What exactly do you want Linux to be able to sandbox that it can't?
> no provision for checking binary signatures
Bootloaders already enforce this for the kernel, and the kernel can enforce it for its own modules. Userlands are free to enforce it for userspace programs (e.g., how Android requires APKs to be signed).
Those are toolkits to sandbox processes, but I'm talking in terms of complete solutions. Linux has Snaps and Flatpak, but the modern distros lack in solutions to enforce sandboxing policies systemwide against arbitrary binaries.
While Apple's Gatekeeper and Windows Defender may improve security, their privacy drawbacks are substantial, and as we discovered recently with Apple's Gatekeeper fiasco, yet another thing that could fail and prevent legitimate programs on the computer from opening. Furthermore, Windows Defender will occasionally quarantine binaries and DLLs that are harmless. For a non-power user, fixing these problems is non-trivial. Privacy vs Security is one argument, but the fact that the systems can occasionally break through no fault of the user is a major concern in its own right.
Limited sandboxing? Ever heard of containers?
What mainstream user software is distributed as a container? Last time I checked it's all just endless deb files.
You should check again - Ubuntu applications are now being distributed via Snaps that everyone hates, they are sandboxed tho. For other distributions you have Flatpak that is also sandboxed.
Spotify, Blender, Chromium, Firefox.. The situation has improved immensely over the last 4 years.
Windows is probably considerably more secure against browser 0days, but how much malware is actually distributed that way? I expect most of it comes from people manually running malware executables they mistakenly download from websites.
First off, you are right in that Linux has major security issues and isn't perfect in it. However, outside of the comments that have already been posted in defense of linux's security, in the end, Linux's relative obscurity at the moment DOES effectively lead to less viruses. Compare that to Windows, who for all the security measures they implement ultimately lead to more because it is simply more targeted. While this isn't truly reliable security, at the moment it works better.
Either way, Windows compromises all of your data nonetheless. So not only are you actually getting viruses, your data's stolen anyways. Compare that to Linux, where viruses aren't as frequent and no ones siphoning your data. In the end, who's better off?
Either way, Windows compromises all of your data nonetheless. So not only are you actually getting viruses, your data's stolen anyways. Compare that to Linux, where viruses aren't as frequent and no ones siphoning your data. In the end, who's better off?
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[deleted]
Totally outdated and overall pretty useless. Objective in the sense it proclaims to be is not possible. Almost all of the points are completely irrelevant for the average potential user.
It's on github not disney.com, and mostly still accurate.
Superbly written by OP!
The article is obviously old and out of date (i.e. MAX_PATH, given you don't mention Office...) and at times incorrect (i.e. NT kernel performance where async I/O has historically been better than the various Linux implementations -- io_uring excluded as I haven't seen any comparisons).
I'll give my highly subjective experience. I used Fedora 3x on a X1 Carbon gen 7 and it was not awesome. While I had a highly customizable UI via KDE Plasma, the font always felt off. I had issues directly attributed to Wayland (screen sharing in apps), though I could have gone back to X11.
Eventually I switched to Gnome and the UI was just frustrating from a UX standpoint. The UI lacked so many options to make it more flexible, though some frustrations were taken care of by extensions.
For either DE, if I didn't want to use Firefox, many types of media were unavailable, including certain videos in YouTube due to lack of included libraries. Some of those libraries were available in 3rd party builds, but given the security sensitive nature of browsers, that felt risky.
Performance was fine and the apps I needed were available.
Overall, application in each DE felt more crash-prone. This was true of the updater for the Gnome app store, too.
More than a couple of times I would have odd graphical issues occur in both KDE Plasma and Gnome. A couple examples were font-related issues (incorrect font despite being set correctly in settings) and window-color issues. The Gnome app store window was in dark mode while the rest of the DE wasn't. Oh and lack of DE-wide mouse scrolling on windows was a bit frustrating. I had to get a plugin for Chromium but never found a DE-wide solution.
I was tired of Windows on a laptop, so I did end up buying a MBP, which was my first Mac since my PowerBook G4. MBP does everything I need for personal use and as a development playground, plus generally stable apps. I still use Win 10 on a P1 for work and of course have a desktop for gaming, primarily.
What I'd like to see from a DE is to be highly integrated into the system. We've seen successful implementations via Windows and Mac (classic and OS X/11), and perhaps the not-so-commercial success, BeOS. Many of the Linux DEs "feel" tacked-on.
With that said, I run unbound and haproxy on a handful of Linux VMs where they work wonders and I've had zero issues with stability, etc.
All-in-all my Fedora 3x experience was just OK. It felt rough around many, though not all edges. App crash was more than I'd see using the same apps on Windows (and now macOS).
There were other things that irritated me; lack of fingerprint reader support and lack of a Bitlocker-style solution (no password on boot) available.
Again, my experiences, my impressions. They could all be wrong.
I'll give my highly subjective experience. I used Fedora 3x on a X1 Carbon gen 7 and it was not awesome. While I had a highly customizable UI via KDE Plasma, the font always felt off. I had issues directly attributed to Wayland (screen sharing in apps), though I could have gone back to X11.
Eventually I switched to Gnome and the UI was just frustrating from a UX standpoint. The UI lacked so many options to make it more flexible, though some frustrations were taken care of by extensions.
For either DE, if I didn't want to use Firefox, many types of media were unavailable, including certain videos in YouTube due to lack of included libraries. Some of those libraries were available in 3rd party builds, but given the security sensitive nature of browsers, that felt risky.
Performance was fine and the apps I needed were available.
Overall, application in each DE felt more crash-prone. This was true of the updater for the Gnome app store, too.
More than a couple of times I would have odd graphical issues occur in both KDE Plasma and Gnome. A couple examples were font-related issues (incorrect font despite being set correctly in settings) and window-color issues. The Gnome app store window was in dark mode while the rest of the DE wasn't. Oh and lack of DE-wide mouse scrolling on windows was a bit frustrating. I had to get a plugin for Chromium but never found a DE-wide solution.
I was tired of Windows on a laptop, so I did end up buying a MBP, which was my first Mac since my PowerBook G4. MBP does everything I need for personal use and as a development playground, plus generally stable apps. I still use Win 10 on a P1 for work and of course have a desktop for gaming, primarily.
What I'd like to see from a DE is to be highly integrated into the system. We've seen successful implementations via Windows and Mac (classic and OS X/11), and perhaps the not-so-commercial success, BeOS. Many of the Linux DEs "feel" tacked-on.
With that said, I run unbound and haproxy on a handful of Linux VMs where they work wonders and I've had zero issues with stability, etc.
All-in-all my Fedora 3x experience was just OK. It felt rough around many, though not all edges. App crash was more than I'd see using the same apps on Windows (and now macOS).
There were other things that irritated me; lack of fingerprint reader support and lack of a Bitlocker-style solution (no password on boot) available.
Again, my experiences, my impressions. They could all be wrong.
[deleted]
To me personally, the biggest benefit is that I own the system and everything on it.
If MS decides to end support for whatever you're using, you're fucked. If Apple decides your hardware isnt supported any longer, or that you cant use your system without an update that makes your old apps incompatible, you're fucked.
If you're using a product, you rely on it not having its end of life before you stop using it, but you can't actually trust that, and we all know that. You know that, once you're in the MS ecosystem, you are at the mercy at whatever business decision they make for their products. If they decide to force you to pay for something that was free before, or decide that they are going to lock a feature behind paywall, the only reasonable thing is to comply.
Now, you might not care, and, hell, you might think the concept of owning your tools is idiotic anyways.
To get back to my point though - Linux gives hardware I own a system that I control. The OS I use helps me get done what I want to get done, it doesnt get in my way, it doesnt try to persuade me, trick me, sell me something, or anything like it. I like to pick what file browser I use, which browser I use, which keybinds do what - without the system acting like i'm an idiot with messages like "oh, you must have misclicked, im sure you want to use edge, not this 'firefox' garbage".
Do I have to pick which file browser I use? No, and I didn't, I just use the default, because it's good. If the developer of it decides to change it, I dont have to update it, I can use the old one, or use a different one altogether, or change it myself if I have the time.
I like Linux because it doesnt treat me like i'm an idiot, it doesnt treat me like i'm a customer, it doesnt actually treat me in any way at all, because unless i interact with it, it doesnt do anything.
When I need to write a patch, I open my laptop, and its immediately there. I open my messages, open my editor, pull, write the patch, commit, push, and close it. I didn't get a "didnt do AV scan in the last 2 seconds", i didn't get random programs autostarting, I didn't get news on my login screen, I didn't get programs notifying me that "its now up to date", it doesnt force me to update before i shut it down, and I dont have to look at a bunch of "welcome back" and "we hope your day is going great" and "did you know this random fact about a mountain in asia?" on my login screen.
Yet, all of these things happen regularly when I launch my windows machine at work. Yes, they're all small things, but once you're used to your system not nagging you for random shit, you can't help but notice.
Yeah
If MS decides to end support for whatever you're using, you're fucked. If Apple decides your hardware isnt supported any longer, or that you cant use your system without an update that makes your old apps incompatible, you're fucked.
If you're using a product, you rely on it not having its end of life before you stop using it, but you can't actually trust that, and we all know that. You know that, once you're in the MS ecosystem, you are at the mercy at whatever business decision they make for their products. If they decide to force you to pay for something that was free before, or decide that they are going to lock a feature behind paywall, the only reasonable thing is to comply.
Now, you might not care, and, hell, you might think the concept of owning your tools is idiotic anyways.
To get back to my point though - Linux gives hardware I own a system that I control. The OS I use helps me get done what I want to get done, it doesnt get in my way, it doesnt try to persuade me, trick me, sell me something, or anything like it. I like to pick what file browser I use, which browser I use, which keybinds do what - without the system acting like i'm an idiot with messages like "oh, you must have misclicked, im sure you want to use edge, not this 'firefox' garbage".
Do I have to pick which file browser I use? No, and I didn't, I just use the default, because it's good. If the developer of it decides to change it, I dont have to update it, I can use the old one, or use a different one altogether, or change it myself if I have the time.
I like Linux because it doesnt treat me like i'm an idiot, it doesnt treat me like i'm a customer, it doesnt actually treat me in any way at all, because unless i interact with it, it doesnt do anything.
When I need to write a patch, I open my laptop, and its immediately there. I open my messages, open my editor, pull, write the patch, commit, push, and close it. I didn't get a "didnt do AV scan in the last 2 seconds", i didn't get random programs autostarting, I didn't get news on my login screen, I didn't get programs notifying me that "its now up to date", it doesnt force me to update before i shut it down, and I dont have to look at a bunch of "welcome back" and "we hope your day is going great" and "did you know this random fact about a mountain in asia?" on my login screen.
Yet, all of these things happen regularly when I launch my windows machine at work. Yes, they're all small things, but once you're used to your system not nagging you for random shit, you can't help but notice.
Yeah
At least because Linux and GNU software is open source. Using GNU/Linux, you own your device, but using Windows, Microsoft own your device. So if you value your freedom, then this reason is enough for you
[deleted]
Overall, everything seems to "just work" at least as well as on MacOS and is not quite (for me) as endlessly frustrating as Windows. Gaming has also been effortless and honestly just the most delightful surprise about the whole thing. I can write code AND play games... on the same machine... and it's running Linux?! I would've lost that bet ten years ago.
I was/am totally prepared to use GPU pass-through to a Windows VM to get native gaming performance or work around bugs-- but I haven't needed to.
I'm using PopOS but am pretty indifferent toward the distro I use. I honestly got it confused for different distro, but it was still Debian/Ubuntu based so I'm chill (ha).
Really, most modern Linux distros are pretty god damn nice. It's a little weird to even think about dialing in the aesthetic more to my liking coming from the world of MacOS. But I've found themes like Nord (https://www.gnome-look.org/p/1267246/) provide some visual familiarity while maintaining their own unique aesthetic qualities.
Making apps, or interacting with the OS, is absurdly easy using GTK and Python vs anything Microsoft or Apple have to offer. I have the same effective level of support which is to say none-at-all or via the community of volunteers. I can't ever imagine calling Microsoft or Apple for meaningful help (roflcoptr and we say we pay for support).
Linux is rocking the desktop hard, if you haven't tried it in a few years or just maintain a Windows installation to play games-- seriously give it a try. It's wonderful.