Troof on Nootropics(astralcodexten.substack.com)
astralcodexten.substack.com
Troof on Nootropics
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/link-troof-on-nootropics
70 comments
The "energy" factor and "making you feel good" factor might be it.
> people might simply be alleviating their own anxiety
Dexedrine and Adderall exacerbate anxiety if anything.
> people might simply be alleviating their own anxiety
Dexedrine and Adderall exacerbate anxiety if anything.
> Adderall exacerbate anxiety if anything.
Not so. Brain fog creates tremendous anxiety because it continually sabotages pretty much everything. Fifteen years of Adderall has dramatically reduced anxiety for me and everyone around me.
Not so. Brain fog creates tremendous anxiety because it continually sabotages pretty much everything. Fifteen years of Adderall has dramatically reduced anxiety for me and everyone around me.
This is true for me, but I can’t raise my dose past 20mg Vyvanse without getting “physical” anxiety even before the mental one starts.
Accidentally getting too much caffeine can be unpleasant too.
Accidentally getting too much caffeine can be unpleasant too.
Interesting, the confidence channel of anxiety reduction.
After 15 years, what is the tolerance situation like? I've been thinking of starting
If anything. Dexedrine does nothing at all in any way in other cases.
Can you be more anxious when your mind feels clearer?
I'm not surprised Adderall took the top spot; as far as "wonder drugs" go, it basically checks all the boxes. Energy, weight loss, motivation, the whole thing all in one nice little package. I think the trap is that over time it doesn't work exactly like it did before, and if you take it every single day you can get burned out. I like to skip a day or two over the weekend, to help start the week out a bit more fresh, but to each their own.
It's not comforting to know that my prefered answer to this (adult diagnosed) ADHD problem puts me right next to the meth addicts without teeth, but it's a risk that has paid off massively for me.
It's not comforting to know that my prefered answer to this (adult diagnosed) ADHD problem puts me right next to the meth addicts without teeth, but it's a risk that has paid off massively for me.
In regards to the difference in effect between Adderall and illegal street meth, Scott thinks the biggest difference is the dosage size, effectively around 50x higher for street meth:
https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/drug-users-use-a-lot-o...
Dosis sola facit venenum.
Dosis sola facit venenum.
And particularly the means--smoking it versus taking orally. A lot of these stims are terrible if snorted or injected, they used to warn patients never to do that or risk becoming addicted.
There is a methamphetamine that is prescribed to ADD's, not the same as the street version of course.
There is a methamphetamine that is prescribed to ADD's, not the same as the street version of course.
This may not actually be the case: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new...
I've done a decent amount of drugs, and I've been around people who have done a hell of a lot more, but I recently had a friend develop a meth problem, and I have to say, there is something remarkably different about how issue compared to what I've seen in my life.
I've done a decent amount of drugs, and I've been around people who have done a hell of a lot more, but I recently had a friend develop a meth problem, and I have to say, there is something remarkably different about how issue compared to what I've seen in my life.
> I think the trap is that over time it doesn't work exactly like it did before, and if you take it every single day you can get burned out.
You may have a magnesium deficiency. Tolerance to Adderall definitely isn’t guaranteed.
NAC can also help in some people.
(both of these recommended by my psych not just /r/nootropics)
You may have a magnesium deficiency. Tolerance to Adderall definitely isn’t guaranteed.
NAC can also help in some people.
(both of these recommended by my psych not just /r/nootropics)
Adderall compared to smoking meth is like drinking green tea vs chewing up a handful of caffeine pills.
It has changed my life in a pretty beneficial way, but totally agree about having days off. I take 3 days off a week and refuse to let my doctor bump up the pill size.
It has changed my life in a pretty beneficial way, but totally agree about having days off. I take 3 days off a week and refuse to let my doctor bump up the pill size.
> I think the trap is that over time it doesn't work exactly like it did before, and if you take it every single day you can get burned out.
After many years of 7d/wk use, it still works as expected for me. Diff bodies and all that.
After many years of 7d/wk use, it still works as expected for me. Diff bodies and all that.
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Phenylpiracetam and Aniracetam have been the best nootropics for me. They offer mild stimulation while also being somewhat anxiolytic and mood boosting.
Most of the other ones I've tried seem to do nothing but eat into my wallet.
I mostly see effective nootropics as a set of very mild stimulants that give some of the benefits without the drawbacks of their stronger cousins.
There's also a lot of placebo going on in nootropic communities. Just about every week in the nootropics subreddit somebody is posting about how something they started taking 3 days ago has changed their life.
Most of the other ones I've tried seem to do nothing but eat into my wallet.
I mostly see effective nootropics as a set of very mild stimulants that give some of the benefits without the drawbacks of their stronger cousins.
There's also a lot of placebo going on in nootropic communities. Just about every week in the nootropics subreddit somebody is posting about how something they started taking 3 days ago has changed their life.
Too bad Troof blog is using a definition of nootropic that I don't like:
"Any substance purported to increase or enhance cognitive abilities."
He reckons that:
"Some only use the term nootropic to refer to a specific thing which should check a very specific checklist, e.g. having very few side-effects. As I’m not using this definition, remember that the nootropics mentioned here can be very dangerous."
And I am very much inclined to think a nootropic as a substance that[1]
"should protect the brain against various physical or chemical injuries (e.g. barbiturates, scopalamine)."
I would even change should by must
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corneliu_E._Giurgea#Nootropic_...
"Any substance purported to increase or enhance cognitive abilities."
He reckons that:
"Some only use the term nootropic to refer to a specific thing which should check a very specific checklist, e.g. having very few side-effects. As I’m not using this definition, remember that the nootropics mentioned here can be very dangerous."
And I am very much inclined to think a nootropic as a substance that[1]
"should protect the brain against various physical or chemical injuries (e.g. barbiturates, scopalamine)."
I would even change should by must
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corneliu_E._Giurgea#Nootropic_...
For better or worse, the modern colloquial usage of nootropic is nowhere near the original definition. Caffeine is considered "the most widely used nootropic", but it doesn't even fit the original usage.
If there was something that greatly increased performance, you, your mom and (nearly) everyone else would know about it and take it already.
So far, that's mostly limited to stimulants, with caffeine being one of the most used drugs worldwide. It's not some well kept secret, you don't have to look out for it, it's everywhere (coffee, soft drinks, energy drinks, pre-workout products, it's the main ingredient of every gamer-goo mix). It's popular because it evidently works.
Spending a ton of money on very questionable nootropics is probably not that smart though!
So far, that's mostly limited to stimulants, with caffeine being one of the most used drugs worldwide. It's not some well kept secret, you don't have to look out for it, it's everywhere (coffee, soft drinks, energy drinks, pre-workout products, it's the main ingredient of every gamer-goo mix). It's popular because it evidently works.
Spending a ton of money on very questionable nootropics is probably not that smart though!
Ah, the efficient market hypothesis applied to the most inefficient sector of the economy: health. What could go wrong?
> If there was something that greatly increased performance
I'll add "and doesn't have major side effects". Amphetamines could probably fit your definition otherwise.
I'll add "and doesn't have major side effects". Amphetamines could probably fit your definition otherwise.
Back in 2011 you could spend less than $20CAD and get enough noopept powder for months and months. Tastes like shit though (imagine the most bitter thing you’ve ever had x10) so I’d recommend shelling out more for gelcaps, or make them yourself.
I recently (2021) saw a TV ad on a Russian-language channel for noopept, during a visit to Moldova. It included a slow-motion happy family. Looks like it's gone mainstream by now (at least in some parts of the world).
I know Russia and Romania have strong orientation towards math+programming in their culture. Would not surprise me if Moldova does too, and noopept is the ‘Viagara’ to this particular activity.
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They're confusing stimulants and nootropics. For compounds like dihexa it takes months for the effect to kick in.
I like that they included dawn light. Having great success with 20,000k LED strip. Truly a stimulant.
https://www.jcircadianrhythms.com/articles/10.1186/1740-3391...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/300894541473
https://www.jcircadianrhythms.com/articles/10.1186/1740-3391...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/300894541473
Can someone please explain how weighlifting figures into this ? It is rated ahead of Ritalin .. so does that imply lifting heavy weights will improve focus during doing non-physical tasks?
Although I didn't read the article, from my personal experience, weightlifting during the week helps me focus, and in a way that cardio does not. In weeks in which I lift 2-3 days, at the moderate level that I do (say 45 min of using free weights and body weight lifts at a medium pace, nothing extreme), I'm much less fidgety than weeks where I'm not able to lift, but my brain is still sharp.
This is in contrast to biking or rowing at a moderate pace (pusing myself and getting pretty sweaty but not collapsing or wanting to barf) for an hour once or twice a week. If I do this, I am still less fidgety but I feel more mentally fatigued later on the day, and sometimes the morning after, I exercise. I attribute this to nutrition/glucose levels and hydration, but even drinking a ton of water and snacking won't fully ameliorate the issues. The same thing happens after a weekend of playing hard, like kayaking one day and hiking with my daughter in my backpack the next day. I'm often pretty unproductive on Monday (oh well... ;)
What works best for me is moderate weight lifting followed by like 30 min of moderate rowing or biking, twice during the work week. Although I might feel a bit more depleted after rowing than not, my overall energy level is higher than if I skip the cardio, and I recover more quickly from my weekend activities.
This is in contrast to biking or rowing at a moderate pace (pusing myself and getting pretty sweaty but not collapsing or wanting to barf) for an hour once or twice a week. If I do this, I am still less fidgety but I feel more mentally fatigued later on the day, and sometimes the morning after, I exercise. I attribute this to nutrition/glucose levels and hydration, but even drinking a ton of water and snacking won't fully ameliorate the issues. The same thing happens after a weekend of playing hard, like kayaking one day and hiking with my daughter in my backpack the next day. I'm often pretty unproductive on Monday (oh well... ;)
What works best for me is moderate weight lifting followed by like 30 min of moderate rowing or biking, twice during the work week. Although I might feel a bit more depleted after rowing than not, my overall energy level is higher than if I skip the cardio, and I recover more quickly from my weekend activities.
I think any kind of vigorous excercise does this.
Any activity that is completely divorced from your extant life stressors and that requires all of your focus for a limited time frame would probably also qualify.
Weightlifting requires focusing on moving heavy things. It's hard to worry about your taxes or your job while you're pushing a significant portion of your body weight away from your face.
That gives you a break from the things that chronically stress you out, by replacing it with a transient acute stress.
That will definitely help your overall stress levels decrease. Plus improving your mood, your aesthetics, and your health all work together to give you more tools to improve your life outlook with.
Weightlifting requires focusing on moving heavy things. It's hard to worry about your taxes or your job while you're pushing a significant portion of your body weight away from your face.
That gives you a break from the things that chronically stress you out, by replacing it with a transient acute stress.
That will definitely help your overall stress levels decrease. Plus improving your mood, your aesthetics, and your health all work together to give you more tools to improve your life outlook with.
yes it is a long acting nootropic altough the effect while real is not acutely perceivable much.
You can cut diamonds with your focus on the third full day of a water, salt, and black coffee fast.
"Works on my machine!"
So can you on third day of methamphetamine fast, but I don't think I'd recommend it to anyone.
OP was making a comment about efficacy of water fasts; to compare water fasts to meth is pretty wild.
I think they were comparing a water + meth diet with a water + caffeine diet.
I confirm that you are right. It sounded funnier in my head.
I reflexively cut people who interrupt my focus on any fast longer than a few hours... okay maybe not cut, but the hangry is way too intense to interact with humanity.
It's the "must hunt" instinct cutting in on that third day. I loved day 3 of the fast! I fasted 3 days a week for months, loved it.
What do you do to end the fast?
This is a large list of things to just say 'going outside is really good for you, and has zero side effects and fairly maximal effects'
Ever since quitting stimulants I've been searching for something to make life as exciting as it previously was when I was on caffeine.
I have tried several nootropics, Tongkat Ali being the latest. These things definitely have effects, but the side effects were too great for me. I was able to get through the intense nausea, felt good for a few weeks and then was getting CRIPPLING anxiety whenever I'd take them.
I've just come to the conclusion that day to day life isn't really meant to be "exciting" and I've learned to live with it.
The last thing I want to do is become dependent on yet another thing to elevate my mood, and feel good. Would much rather focus on the external inputs and filter those to provide myself with the best mental state.
I have tried several nootropics, Tongkat Ali being the latest. These things definitely have effects, but the side effects were too great for me. I was able to get through the intense nausea, felt good for a few weeks and then was getting CRIPPLING anxiety whenever I'd take them.
I've just come to the conclusion that day to day life isn't really meant to be "exciting" and I've learned to live with it.
The last thing I want to do is become dependent on yet another thing to elevate my mood, and feel good. Would much rather focus on the external inputs and filter those to provide myself with the best mental state.
I think of it less as being dependent on a substance and more as being able to cleanly segment my life. Especially with something like Adderall XR which has a 6-8 hour duration, it is pretty straightforward to turn on and off. Then on days off or after work it is easier to feel no particular obligation to do anything work related. Another bonus is getting so much done when 'on' that your time off is free from any anxiety around work achievements.
That said I had a similar relationship to caffeine, it was more intense than adderall/ritalin to me but the afternoon drop off and affects on sleep/mood were too much and I have cut way back.
That said I had a similar relationship to caffeine, it was more intense than adderall/ritalin to me but the afternoon drop off and affects on sleep/mood were too much and I have cut way back.
Adderall?? That is medication... I thought nootropics was legal things like caffeine and l-theamine?
Maybe we're all sick. Maybe our society is sick. Maybe if we were actually well-adjusted to reality, people would say we are sick.
At any rate, people seek out nootropics because their brain isn't working like they want it to.
At any rate, people seek out nootropics because their brain isn't working like they want it to.
I used to take noopept in my undergrad. No idea if it worked, or if I just started trying and that’s why I’m doing well now.
Recently I started to microdose shrooms. Anecdotally, I can juuust feel the ‘come-up’ ie light feeling in stomach and a wave of depersonalization, and while the effects on my cognition are minor, I feel that thinking is harder, but my intuition gets sharper.
Recently I started to microdose shrooms. Anecdotally, I can juuust feel the ‘come-up’ ie light feeling in stomach and a wave of depersonalization, and while the effects on my cognition are minor, I feel that thinking is harder, but my intuition gets sharper.
Troof reads like a wannabe gwern.
This article conviced me decide to research and possibly try using Dexedrine/Dextroamphetamine. Wish me the best! I always wanted to try a potentially powerful nootropic.
Humm… I knew a few people that managed to destroy their life by taking amphetamines. Sometimes there is a reason for some substances to be controlled.
But of course ultimately it's up to you and each case is a case. I just wanted to offer some deterrent because I know anecdotal reports on the internet tend to be quite positive since the people that wrote them probably just started.
And if it destroys people's lives, then those people probably aren't prioritizing writing online to tell others.
Survivorship Bias?
Survivorship Bias?
Not necessarily. I hear a lot more often of all the people with destroyed lives by opiates than about all the people whose lives are improved(which is if anything a larger group).
> I hear a lot more often of all the people with destroyed lives by opiates
They get all the press & panic. The much, much, much larger group - they're the people who've become unable to be prescribed any pain meds (due to frightened Dr.s, 3 day state limits on Rx) and now live their lives in pain. They're pretty much off everyone's radar.
I have friends with chronic conditions (re:Rhum Arthritis) who responsibly took pain meds for years but now buy their pain relief off the street. Zero of their Dr.s are willing to Rx any opioids. Past that are the now commonplace stories of people being Rx Tylenol following surgery.
In the last year, I twice had to beg+negotiate for Tramadol. Once following surgery and once to tamper down severe knee pain so I could exercise. That latter one came with a "Don't Ask For This Again" vibe.
They get all the press & panic. The much, much, much larger group - they're the people who've become unable to be prescribed any pain meds (due to frightened Dr.s, 3 day state limits on Rx) and now live their lives in pain. They're pretty much off everyone's radar.
I have friends with chronic conditions (re:Rhum Arthritis) who responsibly took pain meds for years but now buy their pain relief off the street. Zero of their Dr.s are willing to Rx any opioids. Past that are the now commonplace stories of people being Rx Tylenol following surgery.
In the last year, I twice had to beg+negotiate for Tramadol. Once following surgery and once to tamper down severe knee pain so I could exercise. That latter one came with a "Don't Ask For This Again" vibe.
Can you share some more details? As I have just been prescribed Adderall and I want to make sure that's something I want to take regularly.
If you have been prescribed something, you are under doctor supervision so my comment doesn't apply to you. I was talking about people doing drugs and/or self medicating.
Just make sure your doctor's loyalty lies with you and not with some pharmaceutical company and you will be fine.
Just make sure your doctor's loyalty lies with you and not with some pharmaceutical company and you will be fine.
and you could always get a second or third opinion just to make sure.
I've been on Adderall for 15 years. It's brought sweeping, positive changes to my life.
I have increased control over thinking & recall and that allows my efforts to yield results. It's an everything-sized difference.
I have increased control over thinking & recall and that allows my efforts to yield results. It's an everything-sized difference.
It’s perfectly safe as long as you monitor your blood pressure and remember to eat. The evidence is quite good that taking it reduces substance abuse in patients as well.
Aka "speed". Of course it works, it is a hard drug! You can also try MDMA, meth, cocaine, etc... they all work, until they kill you.
Ok, I am exaggerating, these drugs are not that bad, even if you include their "fun" applications, as long as you follow the harm reduction principles. And these anti-ADHD tablets are not dubious street drugs, they are well dosed, pure and slowly released.
But still, I would avoid these in the long run, caffeine is where I draw the line for regular use (and I'd rather not depend on it). Also keep in mind that ADHD treatment is meant for people with ADHD, basically giving them the stimulation their brain can't provide on its own, this way they can calm down instead of being in constant search for excitement. If you don't have ADHD you don't need any of that and it will just make you a bit high, an almost opposite effect.
Ok, I am exaggerating, these drugs are not that bad, even if you include their "fun" applications, as long as you follow the harm reduction principles. And these anti-ADHD tablets are not dubious street drugs, they are well dosed, pure and slowly released.
But still, I would avoid these in the long run, caffeine is where I draw the line for regular use (and I'd rather not depend on it). Also keep in mind that ADHD treatment is meant for people with ADHD, basically giving them the stimulation their brain can't provide on its own, this way they can calm down instead of being in constant search for excitement. If you don't have ADHD you don't need any of that and it will just make you a bit high, an almost opposite effect.
> Also keep in mind that ADHD treatment is meant for people with ADHD, basically giving them the stimulation their brain can't provide on its own, this way they can calm down instead of being in constant search for excitement.
That’s not how it works. Your brain has networks responsible for keeping the rest under control and it’s those that get “stimulated”. It doesn’t just make everything more exciting - that’s MDMA.
That’s not how it works. Your brain has networks responsible for keeping the rest under control and it’s those that get “stimulated”. It doesn’t just make everything more exciting - that’s MDMA.
>Aka "speed".
Speed is typically not Dextroamphetamine and not as pure (at minimum the dosages seem quite different) though hard to tell what amphetamine you are getting with it. Otherwise yes, pretty close and it's possible that speed is more dangerous because of the amounts people take of it at a time vs the typically lower and more consistent dosing with Dexedrine. Similar for meth and vyvanse.
Speed is typically not Dextroamphetamine and not as pure (at minimum the dosages seem quite different) though hard to tell what amphetamine you are getting with it. Otherwise yes, pretty close and it's possible that speed is more dangerous because of the amounts people take of it at a time vs the typically lower and more consistent dosing with Dexedrine. Similar for meth and vyvanse.
I used Dexedrine some years ago because I was dealing with a lack of focus, tiredness, and brain fog.
For the month or so that it worked, it was pretty awesome. My mind felt like it was hammering away and as sharp as I was in my twenties.
Unfortunately, that feeling didn't last more than maybe six weeks. I was advised by some to just increase the dosage, but my heart was already fluttering in my chest at the dosage I was at. Also, my sleep was odd, with weird dreams that would wake me up, preventing me from falling back asleep for hours. Added to that, my blood pressure got stuck over 140 and wouldn't come down.
If I could get a prescription that would give me the benefits of those first weeks of use, without destroying my health, I'd be all over it.
Eventually, my GP noticed that I had a thyroid deficiency that I'm not treating with thyroid hormone. That's helped a great deal with the tiredness and brain fog.
For the month or so that it worked, it was pretty awesome. My mind felt like it was hammering away and as sharp as I was in my twenties.
Unfortunately, that feeling didn't last more than maybe six weeks. I was advised by some to just increase the dosage, but my heart was already fluttering in my chest at the dosage I was at. Also, my sleep was odd, with weird dreams that would wake me up, preventing me from falling back asleep for hours. Added to that, my blood pressure got stuck over 140 and wouldn't come down.
If I could get a prescription that would give me the benefits of those first weeks of use, without destroying my health, I'd be all over it.
Eventually, my GP noticed that I had a thyroid deficiency that I'm not treating with thyroid hormone. That's helped a great deal with the tiredness and brain fog.
> For the month or so that it worked, it was pretty awesome. Unfortunately, that feeling didn't last more than maybe six weeks.
Sort of similar. I found every wrong road I took (supplements, diets, physical) helped - for 2 weeks and then never again. Stims turned out to be my right road.
Sort of similar. I found every wrong road I took (supplements, diets, physical) helped - for 2 weeks and then never again. Stims turned out to be my right road.
> few things that aren’t chemicals at all like meditation and exercise
Those things release, inhibit and moderate chemicals. Your body has a lot of drugs in it already.
Those things release, inhibit and moderate chemicals. Your body has a lot of drugs in it already.
I started using VR as a brain refresher, I feel that should be considered too. It's sorta exercise but with more modalities
The reality then, probably matches the chart pretty well for the types of people who do focused work and can afford to try things out and the best routine is likely what people have known is good for many things tied to health for a long time:
1. Lose weight.
2. Exercise regularly.
3. Get good sleep.