Cities with their own psychological disorders(atlasobscura.com)
atlasobscura.com
Cities with their own psychological disorders
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/cities-with-psychological-syndromes-stockholm
122 comments
It's hard to pick up on as an American, but "French Tacos" actually don't have any genealogy in common with Tex-Mex tacos. They're essentially north African shwarma (lamb kebab, fries, cheese sauce, lettuce shoved in a wrap) re-marketed in a way that doesn't invoke knee-jerk racism from the French mainstream. Calling them "tacos" lets them get away with being exotic, and since the average Français doesn't really have any preconceived notions about Mexico or Mexican food either way it doesn't conjure up any negative associations. Calling them "Le French Tacos" is even more re-assuring -- they're tacos, but 'frenchified', so they must be OK.
But that same light-skinned frenchman would turn up his gallic nose an authentic arabic shwarma, even stumbling from from le bar at 2am. That the only difference between a good shwarma and a good French taco is /maybe/ the choice of cheese makes no difference...
(Source: live in Toulouse, have snarky Lebanese friends)
But that same light-skinned frenchman would turn up his gallic nose an authentic arabic shwarma, even stumbling from from le bar at 2am. That the only difference between a good shwarma and a good French taco is /maybe/ the choice of cheese makes no difference...
(Source: live in Toulouse, have snarky Lebanese friends)
It's just a variant of kebab and shwarma that gained popularity.
Nothing to do with the need to rebrand it because of racism. Shwarma (or kebabs as most people call those) shops fed generations of french studients and party-goers and have been everywhere for decades.
It's kind of funny though, french tacos really took over France in the last decade, I guess because of fast food chain like o'taco. When I left France in 2015 it was unheard of where I was living, now it's everywhere.
It's kind of funny though, french tacos really took over France in the last decade, I guess because of fast food chain like o'taco. When I left France in 2015 it was unheard of where I was living, now it's everywhere.
> , but "French Tacos" actually don't have any genealogy in common with Tex-Mex tacos.
They have a kind of connection beyond the name, even though neither is a linear descendant of the other. Tex-Mex tacos are a descendant of traditional central Mexican tacos, as also are tacos al pastor; but tacos al pastor are also descendants of schwarma, which French tacos derive from. So they're like cousins by marriage.
They have a kind of connection beyond the name, even though neither is a linear descendant of the other. Tex-Mex tacos are a descendant of traditional central Mexican tacos, as also are tacos al pastor; but tacos al pastor are also descendants of schwarma, which French tacos derive from. So they're like cousins by marriage.
I'm interested in the history of food evolution and proliferation like this. Do you know any good places where I can read more about this?
French tacos are the weirdest food I've ever eaten. Imagine chicken cordon bleu wrapped inside a big burrito-sized tortilla.
Norway is this too. I tried to make actual Tex-mex ground beef tacos for some friends and they were abhorred by it.
Honestly, one of the the things that worries me the most about possibly moving out of California (being a native) to another state at some point is lack of good Mexican food if I'm not careful about where I move. I'm sure it's much worse in the majority of countries I'd be interested in moving to as well.
Most of the US, in cities, you can find solid Mexican food. Chicago probably has the best "authentic" non-Cali Mexican in the country even. You won't have to worry just might have to hunt a bit.
The rest of the world? Yea you're screwed. I found one place in Berlin that did legit Mexican because it was run by Mexicans (Santa Maria in Kruezeberg) but that's literally the only decent Mexican I've found in the 50+ countries I've visited and trust me, I've looked in all of them.
Good news is you can find the ingredients for good Mexican in pretty much all of them and do it yourself. The hardest to source is proper jalapeños or any dried peppers, but there's usually a speciality shop somewhere that will be able to give you most of what you need. Cilantro can also be a bit of a pain, but it's way easier than it used to be even 10 years ago.
The rest of the world? Yea you're screwed. I found one place in Berlin that did legit Mexican because it was run by Mexicans (Santa Maria in Kruezeberg) but that's literally the only decent Mexican I've found in the 50+ countries I've visited and trust me, I've looked in all of them.
Good news is you can find the ingredients for good Mexican in pretty much all of them and do it yourself. The hardest to source is proper jalapeños or any dried peppers, but there's usually a speciality shop somewhere that will be able to give you most of what you need. Cilantro can also be a bit of a pain, but it's way easier than it used to be even 10 years ago.
Yeah, I'm not worried about it in sizeable cities, but me moving out of CA would probably be coupled with being a bit more rural (and that's coming from not living in a "large" city already, as I live an hour north of SF). I can move anywhere in CA or any of the southwest states and probably be within 20-30 minutes of some fairly good passably authentic Mexican food. My confidence in that erodes the farther from the southwest or a large city I am.
We actually cook a few dishes fairly regularly (the pork tinga recipe from America's Test Kitchen is actually amazing, if you're looking for something, and dead simple to boot), but there's something comforting knowing it's easy to get some of your favorite food done well on demand on short notice for those days you really aren't feeling like dealing with making dinner.
We actually cook a few dishes fairly regularly (the pork tinga recipe from America's Test Kitchen is actually amazing, if you're looking for something, and dead simple to boot), but there's something comforting knowing it's easy to get some of your favorite food done well on demand on short notice for those days you really aren't feeling like dealing with making dinner.
Luckily mexican immigrants live all over the US, so if you hunt hard you can probably find some good places, even in rural areas.
The sad irony is there are many places with Mexican immigrants, working in kitchens of non-Mexican restaurants, without any Mexican restaurants around.
(Looking at you, Connecticut)
(Looking at you, Connecticut)
The worry is real. You cannot find a decent mission burrito afield. It really a local specialty of San Francisco. I suspect the same is true for burritos found in San Diego. And those tacos in Texas, on flour tortillas, well those aren’t tacos at all but incomplete and unfinished burritos. OK if you want to rebrand a half assed burrito and call it a taco go right ahead. And none of it is a sandwich - not burgers, dogs, falafel, shawarma, gyros, burritos or tacos. A taco is not a sandwich
That's so fascinating! What do you Lebanese friends think about it? Is it like how Italian American dishes are perceived by italians?
BTW I've tried French Tacos and I LOVE IT! I think it could be a huge success in the US, if tweaked for our meat and cheese tastes, like with brisket and cheddar.
BTW I've tried French Tacos and I LOVE IT! I think it could be a huge success in the US, if tweaked for our meat and cheese tastes, like with brisket and cheddar.
I am not sure how your theory can both explain French people both turning their nose at "authentic arabic shwarma" but cheap kebabs being wildly popular at the same time. They're racist only against the authentic versions of foreign foods?
> but even as an American with extremely bad and limited French, most people were very nice
The trick to Paris, I’ve found, is to start with broken French and then suddenly everyone speaks fluent English. But if you start with English you’re screwed.
Even saying “Bonjour” with a decent accent (you can learn it like a song almost) will make them significantly nicer to you.
But yeah don’t expect a big city person to actually verbalize anything if they bump into you in a crowded place. That’s just expected and normal. Not worth aknowledging.
The trick to Paris, I’ve found, is to start with broken French and then suddenly everyone speaks fluent English. But if you start with English you’re screwed.
Even saying “Bonjour” with a decent accent (you can learn it like a song almost) will make them significantly nicer to you.
But yeah don’t expect a big city person to actually verbalize anything if they bump into you in a crowded place. That’s just expected and normal. Not worth aknowledging.
100% agreed. Starting with bad French + a self-deprecating expression = much more helpful Parisians
The kids and I joked about how pleasantly lyrical all French greetings are. You have to try to make "Bonjour" not sound nice.
The kids and I joked about how pleasantly lyrical all French greetings are. You have to try to make "Bonjour" not sound nice.
The culture shock of the Paris experience has less to do with vague aspersions against Parisian personality, and more to do with the sudden confrontation of the sight of thousands of unhoused immigrants under a bridge, or dozens of pickpockets at every tourist attraction. You know, the stuff they don't include in the tourist brochures and the movies about Paris.
Personally I found Paris extremely underwhelming - it felt just like New York but slightly more French. I had a much better experience visiting small towns in the south of France. But to be fair to France, I don't think this is an issue unique to their country - it's an issue with tourism to cities. As a tourist I've come to realize that most cities are largely the same across every meaningful dimension. The best travel experiences come from smaller towns and generally anywhere "off the beaten path." As they would say in Thailand, every city is "same same but different."
Personally I found Paris extremely underwhelming - it felt just like New York but slightly more French. I had a much better experience visiting small towns in the south of France. But to be fair to France, I don't think this is an issue unique to their country - it's an issue with tourism to cities. As a tourist I've come to realize that most cities are largely the same across every meaningful dimension. The best travel experiences come from smaller towns and generally anywhere "off the beaten path." As they would say in Thailand, every city is "same same but different."
Paris felt extremely different than New York to me.
Firstly, much cleaner. Just in terms of trash/litter on your average street.
Secondly, the integration of metro into the regional train network. Amtrak tries, but it's a sad cousin to European rail systems.
Thirdly, weekend markets and general ingredient quality. Paris feels like it cares about ingredients a lot more than the US. Even canned meals from Franprix were pretty good. And don't get me started on the ridiculousness that is Picard.
Small French towns will always have a dear place in my heart though. If I had my choice, I'd still pick them every time over Paris.
Firstly, much cleaner. Just in terms of trash/litter on your average street.
Secondly, the integration of metro into the regional train network. Amtrak tries, but it's a sad cousin to European rail systems.
Thirdly, weekend markets and general ingredient quality. Paris feels like it cares about ingredients a lot more than the US. Even canned meals from Franprix were pretty good. And don't get me started on the ridiculousness that is Picard.
Small French towns will always have a dear place in my heart though. If I had my choice, I'd still pick them every time over Paris.
Paris is definitely much worse than, say, London when it comes to pickpockets, street hawkers, and other nastiness because they actually do very little about those problems...
I disagree. You cannot compare Dubai with Paris - or any othe 1 million+ population city.
They all have their unique story to them. Even cities as close as say Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Antwerp are totally different.
They all have their unique story to them. Even cities as close as say Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Antwerp are totally different.
2 days late: but what a lot of the responses did not mention regarding specifically Japanese tourists:
Most people in Japan get very little Paid time off compared to the rest of the world. And the work culture is so toxic that people get shamed for actually taking their time off. Now, taking that into account, can you imagine that a Japanese person, actually fighting against that, and doing that big trip to a foreign city on the other side of the world, at great expense. They chose Paris for it's reputation. Now imagine their disappointment when Paris is significantly worse than Tokyo.[0] After all the money, time, and precious time off spent to get there, I too would have a mental breakdown under those conditions.
[0] Can confirm. I have been to both. Paris is nice as long as you don't look at the floor. (It is the only major city I've been to that had human shit on the side-walk in the middle of a major tourist area) Tokyo is better in all regards. It's cheaper, cleaner, has more things to do, is better run, etc.
Most people in Japan get very little Paid time off compared to the rest of the world. And the work culture is so toxic that people get shamed for actually taking their time off. Now, taking that into account, can you imagine that a Japanese person, actually fighting against that, and doing that big trip to a foreign city on the other side of the world, at great expense. They chose Paris for it's reputation. Now imagine their disappointment when Paris is significantly worse than Tokyo.[0] After all the money, time, and precious time off spent to get there, I too would have a mental breakdown under those conditions.
[0] Can confirm. I have been to both. Paris is nice as long as you don't look at the floor. (It is the only major city I've been to that had human shit on the side-walk in the middle of a major tourist area) Tokyo is better in all regards. It's cheaper, cleaner, has more things to do, is better run, etc.
The tacos you saw are a riff on kebab. They are tacos in name only. ( TINO if you like )
I noticed there were French tacos (TINOs), but it seemed like the "taco" popularity was leading to a few closer-to-Tex-Mex taco places as well.
This was around the Bastille, so maybe hipster culture?
Overall, a decent attempt, but the salsa was a miss (no cilantro? and not sure what they did to the tomatoes) and the seasonings were still very French.
The irony is afaict, France has all of the ingredients needed. In typically amazingly-fresh-and-delicious French fashion.
But hey, it was still a better take than the Italian Tex-Mex I had in New England -- cinnamon on tortilla chips?!
This was around the Bastille, so maybe hipster culture?
Overall, a decent attempt, but the salsa was a miss (no cilantro? and not sure what they did to the tomatoes) and the seasonings were still very French.
The irony is afaict, France has all of the ingredients needed. In typically amazingly-fresh-and-delicious French fashion.
But hey, it was still a better take than the Italian Tex-Mex I had in New England -- cinnamon on tortilla chips?!
Cinnamon on plain tortilla chips is pretty rough, but if they fried the tortillas first you'd have yourself a delicious buñuelo :)
Good observation… I haven’t lived in Paris since a while but it’s often the same place that serve kebab doing tacos. And most of them put a accent on the meat rather than the fresh stuff around it ( unlike the far superior German kebab )
Bro, no one with a clue goes to Texas for tacos. Maybe Cali, but I don't bother for the most part in the US. Am Mexican
This mysticism about food only being good or authentic in one place doesn't match up with modern internationalism and global supply chains.
There are cooks/chefs from one culture/place in the world living in other spots.
There are cooks/chefs from one culture/place in the world living in other spots.
Yes, like one of the best contemporary Mexican chefs lives in the UK of all places. But we're not talking about this broadly.
You talk about the possibility, that it could exist in Texas, and I'm telling you no, in my experience, not in Texas.
You talk about the possibility, that it could exist in Texas, and I'm telling you no, in my experience, not in Texas.
Yet regions ruin dishes and then locals from that region complain if anyone makes a good version of them, so it can be extremely hard to find an edible X, especially as a visiting tourist.
Just curious, have you had tacos in El Paso? As a non-expert, strikes me as a place that would have good tacos since half the city is in Mexico.
Even the Mexican side lives in a state of sin as it comes to tacos. If you must, go to Tacos Chinampa.
An apology for coming off so critical but the pretense that food is just as good in the US rarely pans out without breaking out the $$$. Mind you, there are good places, and good food but its the exception and here we are only talking generalities. Just like having good table service.
Unfortunately it is a cultural thing; the food culture that produced, accepts and consumes "I Can't Believe Its Not Butter" cannot have non-"I Can't Believe Its Not Tacos" tacos.
An apology for coming off so critical but the pretense that food is just as good in the US rarely pans out without breaking out the $$$. Mind you, there are good places, and good food but its the exception and here we are only talking generalities. Just like having good table service.
Unfortunately it is a cultural thing; the food culture that produced, accepts and consumes "I Can't Believe Its Not Butter" cannot have non-"I Can't Believe Its Not Tacos" tacos.
Thanks for the input bro.
> That said, on my most recent trip to Paris, I actually found Parisians a lot nicer than the last time I was there (~1995ish?).
My wife and I had the exact same experience. We had been to Paris in the late 90s and when we were there a couple of years ago, we found people to be much nicer than they had been previously. Our theory is that it is / was a generational thing.
My wife and I had the exact same experience. We had been to Paris in the late 90s and when we were there a couple of years ago, we found people to be much nicer than they had been previously. Our theory is that it is / was a generational thing.
I chalked it up to increasing globalization. My memory of France in the 90s was that it was way more French.
Now, it seems like American, Japanese, et al. cultures have penetrated a bit, and there's more awareness that there are other-than-French ways of doing things.
Which they'll still do it the French way, because god bless them they defend the hell out their culture, but at least they're more aware of alternatives.
Now, it seems like American, Japanese, et al. cultures have penetrated a bit, and there's more awareness that there are other-than-French ways of doing things.
Which they'll still do it the French way, because god bless them they defend the hell out their culture, but at least they're more aware of alternatives.
i'm from california. the funniest thing about paris was people repeatedly getting way too fucking close to me on the street. my hackles were constantly going up because some french person minding their own business was breaching my bubble. i wonder how this compares to personal space norms in japan.
I've spent more time in Paris than Tokyo, but my memory of Tokyo is that people had no problem being extremely close when necessary.
But they were also exceedingly polite, especially when in close physical proximity and with verbal volume.
I can absolutely see standard French expectations rubbing them wrong.
Which I guess is the point of the article -- no story you read about the wonders of Paris talks about the little nuances of being there. So people are informed about history/art, but little of the day-to-day.
But they were also exceedingly polite, especially when in close physical proximity and with verbal volume.
I can absolutely see standard French expectations rubbing them wrong.
Which I guess is the point of the article -- no story you read about the wonders of Paris talks about the little nuances of being there. So people are informed about history/art, but little of the day-to-day.
everyone was really nice to me in paris.
I think many foreigners don't try to fit into the aloof European culture where you act like a mildly sociopathic hipster.
I'm not saying that "all of Europe" is like that, but definitely the major cities of many Western European countries.
That said, we have SV / Seattle, so I guess we have our own hipster sociopaths in the USA.
I'm not saying that "all of Europe" is like that, but definitely the major cities of many Western European countries.
That said, we have SV / Seattle, so I guess we have our own hipster sociopaths in the USA.
I'm no expert, but wasn't Stockholm Syndrome debunked?
My understanding is that the response to the hostage taking was so incompetent that the hostages trusted the kidnappers more than the police. One of them was expected to "die at her post" by a bank executive. She refused to testify against them for these reasons rather than any sympathy to their cause.
My understanding is that the response to the hostage taking was so incompetent that the hostages trusted the kidnappers more than the police. One of them was expected to "die at her post" by a bank executive. She refused to testify against them for these reasons rather than any sympathy to their cause.
Well this article seems to classify it as pure bullshit:
https://www.stadafa.com/2020/12/stockholm-syndrome-discredit...
"The psychiatrist who invented it, Nils Bejerot, never spoke to the woman he based it on, never bothered to ask her why she trusted her captors more than the authorities. More to the point, during the Swedish bank heist that inspired the syndrome, Bejerot was the psychiatrist leading the police response. He was the authority that Kristin Enmark – the first woman diagnosed with Stockholm syndrome – distrusted."
"On the radio, Enmark criticized the police, and singled out Bejerot. In response, and without once speaking to her, Bejerot dismissed her comments as the product of a syndrome he made up: ‘Norrmalmstorg syndrome’ (later renamed Stockholm syndrome). The fear Enmark felt towards the police was irrational, Bejerot explained, caused by the emotional or sexual attachment she had with her captors. Bejerot’s snap diagnosis suited the Swedish media; they were suspicious of Enmark, who ‘did not appear as traumatized as she ought to be.’ "
At best,this syndrome was described based on one situation, not scientific research.
"The psychiatrist who invented it, Nils Bejerot, never spoke to the woman he based it on, never bothered to ask her why she trusted her captors more than the authorities. More to the point, during the Swedish bank heist that inspired the syndrome, Bejerot was the psychiatrist leading the police response. He was the authority that Kristin Enmark – the first woman diagnosed with Stockholm syndrome – distrusted."
"On the radio, Enmark criticized the police, and singled out Bejerot. In response, and without once speaking to her, Bejerot dismissed her comments as the product of a syndrome he made up: ‘Norrmalmstorg syndrome’ (later renamed Stockholm syndrome). The fear Enmark felt towards the police was irrational, Bejerot explained, caused by the emotional or sexual attachment she had with her captors. Bejerot’s snap diagnosis suited the Swedish media; they were suspicious of Enmark, who ‘did not appear as traumatized as she ought to be.’ "
At best,this syndrome was described based on one situation, not scientific research.
Maybe we should have a Bejerot Syndrome.
This is where an “expert” impugns the intellect or morality of the people who disagree with them instead of trying to understand the very real reasons why.
This is where an “expert” impugns the intellect or morality of the people who disagree with them instead of trying to understand the very real reasons why.
Or more precisely, the mental health of the people who disagree with them.
Knowing that the person who came up with Stockholm Syndrome was the very same person who the hostages sided with the bank robbers against makes it look a lot like drapetomania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapetomania).
Knowing that the person who came up with Stockholm Syndrome was the very same person who the hostages sided with the bank robbers against makes it look a lot like drapetomania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapetomania).
I can think of a few examples over the past 3-8 years where this would be a useful syndrome to have named and in the popular memory.
Oh well, Stockholm Syndrome is catchier.
Oh well, Stockholm Syndrome is catchier.
That certainly sounds tempting but we should struggle to have less poorly substantiated syndromes, not more :-)
Perhaps Bejerot Syndrome could refer to the pop-science tendency to gather and link rational objections to a proposal, policy or practice so they can be posed as pathologically associated symptoms.
Agreed - but, isn't character assassination a classic technique of authorities employed against those who disagree with them?
One of them was expected to "die at her post" by a bank executive.
I wasn't a bank executive, it was the the social democratic prime minister Olof Palme.
During a phone call he asked one of the hostages: "wouldn′t it be nice to die at your post?"
https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/591659
(https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2021/03/the-murder-of-swedish-prim...)
I wasn't a bank executive, it was the the social democratic prime minister Olof Palme.
During a phone call he asked one of the hostages: "wouldn′t it be nice to die at your post?"
https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/591659
(https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2021/03/the-murder-of-swedish-prim...)
Wow, this adds some context to his assassination, which is still one of the greatest unsolved mysteries of our time.
If he was that big of a jackass, maybe his murder wasn't an assassination at all. Maybe someone was just fed up with his shit.
I think the murder of a prime minister is an assassination by definition.
I think it depends. The two main definitions I'm seeing for "assassination" are either: any intentional murder (so basically any murder is an assassination), or specifically any politically motivated murder (so a jilted lover killing the president wouldn't be an assassination, but killing your local HOA president could be).
People seem to consistently refer to John Hinckley’s shooting of President Reagan as an “assassination attempt” despite the fact that Hinckley’s motive was a delusional belief that this would impress Jodie Foster. And we still don’t know the exact motive of the JFK assassination, though everyone has their theories.
Thanks for the correction. I don't think I would have believed my memory even if I had remembered that fact correctly!
[deleted]
Yes, Stockholm syndrome is a toxic lie, a mix of mysoginy, covering up police incompetence and Swedish "holier-than-thou" attitude.
https://www.stadafa.com/2020/12/stockholm-syndrome-discredit...
https://www.stadafa.com/2020/12/stockholm-syndrome-discredit...
Stockholm syndrome is an example of a phenomenon that is pervasive in society and nature in general and a basic consequence of trying to adapt to your environment. We can nitpick forever the specific Stockholm events, but they're just a noisy example of a pattern, not an ideal MODEL of the pattern.
But the distinction between the apparent pattern and its underlying cause is important. If the cause of this method of “trying to adapt to your environment” isn’t actually some bizarre psychological paradox after all, that fact has important implications for how we treat people in these scenarios.
In general anything we call "paradox" is something we don't understand. A paradox is apparent contradiction of facts and their logical, rational relationship. But contradictions don't exist out there.
Reportedly the syndrome "occurs in 8% of kidnap victims", by FBI stats. Not sure how they measure that, but seems plausible. Of course when forced to act against your will, you're defiant. Fight or flight. That's what happens most of the time. Except it's not so simple.
There's a fuller description of the strategies known as "Fight, Flight, Freeze, Fawn" (I guess it was super important to to keep the F-s, hehe).
We see the Freeze response in nature, deer stuck in headlights, animals pretending to be dead when attacked, and so on. We can see this response in children with violent parents. They can't run and hide, nor fight. They freeze.
Fawn is basically the "Stockholm syndrome":
- Over-agreement
- Trying to be overly helpful
- Primary concern with making the abuser happy
This 8% figure with kidnapping seems to be low because the "Fawn" adaptation takes time to develop. A kidnapping is sudden and unexpected. No time to adapt. But there are abusive situations when there is plenty of time to adapt.
We can see this in cults, in abusive families, autocratic companies, it's pervasive in fascist regimes, i.e. Jews policing, hating and attacking Jews, etc.
Fawn is the default adaptation when an abuser is abusive over a long period of time, gradually going from non-abusive to abusive, like in an abusive marriage, from honeymoon to everyday scandals. The victims seek to align to an increasingly lopsided point of balance by changing themselves. And over time, it can become absurd.
Reportedly the syndrome "occurs in 8% of kidnap victims", by FBI stats. Not sure how they measure that, but seems plausible. Of course when forced to act against your will, you're defiant. Fight or flight. That's what happens most of the time. Except it's not so simple.
There's a fuller description of the strategies known as "Fight, Flight, Freeze, Fawn" (I guess it was super important to to keep the F-s, hehe).
We see the Freeze response in nature, deer stuck in headlights, animals pretending to be dead when attacked, and so on. We can see this response in children with violent parents. They can't run and hide, nor fight. They freeze.
Fawn is basically the "Stockholm syndrome":
- Over-agreement
- Trying to be overly helpful
- Primary concern with making the abuser happy
This 8% figure with kidnapping seems to be low because the "Fawn" adaptation takes time to develop. A kidnapping is sudden and unexpected. No time to adapt. But there are abusive situations when there is plenty of time to adapt.
We can see this in cults, in abusive families, autocratic companies, it's pervasive in fascist regimes, i.e. Jews policing, hating and attacking Jews, etc.
Fawn is the default adaptation when an abuser is abusive over a long period of time, gradually going from non-abusive to abusive, like in an abusive marriage, from honeymoon to everyday scandals. The victims seek to align to an increasingly lopsided point of balance by changing themselves. And over time, it can become absurd.
> A kidnapping is sudden and unexpected. No time to adapt. But there are abusive situations when there is plenty of time to adapt.
To wit, the second most prominent supposed case of Stockholm Syndrome was the kidnapping of Patty Hearst, who was supposedly held captive by the SLA terrorists and abused for a protracted period of time before she started helping them rob banks.
To wit, the second most prominent supposed case of Stockholm Syndrome was the kidnapping of Patty Hearst, who was supposedly held captive by the SLA terrorists and abused for a protracted period of time before she started helping them rob banks.
It's not. The proof? There is no serious study on it, despite its "obviousness" and "pervasiveness".
Kapos, collaborators or hostages joining the cause of their captors are not a "syndrome" of people "falling in love" or "bonding" with their captors. Patty Hearst was just convinced of the cause of the SLA - and she tried to get out of jail by using that card. She was just neither bright not honest - a spoiled brat jumping on an adventure that turned bad.
Kapos, collaborators or hostages joining the cause of their captors are not a "syndrome" of people "falling in love" or "bonding" with their captors. Patty Hearst was just convinced of the cause of the SLA - and she tried to get out of jail by using that card. She was just neither bright not honest - a spoiled brat jumping on an adventure that turned bad.
> One of the hostages even became engaged to one of her captors
Was that also because of distrusting the police?
Was that also because of distrusting the police?
> She had criticized the police for pointing guns at the convicts while the hostages were in the line of fire and she had told news outlets that one of the captors tried to protect the hostages from being caught in the crossfire
So yes, she became engaged to someone who tried to save her life from the police.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome#Stockholm_b...
So yes, she became engaged to someone who tried to save her life from the police.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome#Stockholm_b...
> So yes, she became engaged to someone who tried to save her life from the police.
Uhm, after that "someone" joined a gang and took her hostage in order to steal money? If that's logical that sounds like a problem, whether theory is shoddy science or not the thing is real if even you, not victim, fall into that delusion.
People can be thankful to someone who improves things even if that someone creates the horrible situation in the first place. It's a problem and in politics too. Give people more comfortable life and they praise you even if your bad policies are the reason they famished previously. We remember good stuff and forget stuff that bums us out. Your comment exemplified that mistake.
Uhm, after that "someone" joined a gang and took her hostage in order to steal money? If that's logical that sounds like a problem, whether theory is shoddy science or not the thing is real if even you, not victim, fall into that delusion.
People can be thankful to someone who improves things even if that someone creates the horrible situation in the first place. It's a problem and in politics too. Give people more comfortable life and they praise you even if your bad policies are the reason they famished previously. We remember good stuff and forget stuff that bums us out. Your comment exemplified that mistake.
It may be a mistake, but does it that make it a "syndrome"?
where did I call it a syndrome?
If you justify her marrying the guy because he saved her from police, and you completely sideline that he needed to save her from police because he took her hostage during robbery and police came for that criminal, sorry that's just idiotic.
You can justify marrying the person who put you in direct danger of death for whatever irrational things like emotion, sexual attraction whatever, but you must acknowledge that it's highly illogical and quite worthy of a close look, if the original stockholm syndrome study is complete bullshit then someone else should do a better job at describing this bias.
Edit: thankfully, it turns out all that about marrying the hostage taker is false. (The logic in comment I replied to remains stupid though)
If you justify her marrying the guy because he saved her from police, and you completely sideline that he needed to save her from police because he took her hostage during robbery and police came for that criminal, sorry that's just idiotic.
You can justify marrying the person who put you in direct danger of death for whatever irrational things like emotion, sexual attraction whatever, but you must acknowledge that it's highly illogical and quite worthy of a close look, if the original stockholm syndrome study is complete bullshit then someone else should do a better job at describing this bias.
Edit: thankfully, it turns out all that about marrying the hostage taker is false. (The logic in comment I replied to remains stupid though)
According to Wikipedia:
> He (Olsson) later got engaged to a woman who was not, despite what some state, one of the former hostages
that being said the other hostage taker, Olofsson:
> He went on to meet the hostage Kristin Enmark several times, and their families became friends.
> He (Olsson) later got engaged to a woman who was not, despite what some state, one of the former hostages
that being said the other hostage taker, Olofsson:
> He went on to meet the hostage Kristin Enmark several times, and their families became friends.
As I said, I'm no expert. I read somewhere that it was a sexist response to this woman's criticisms.
Wikipedia states:
"He later got engaged to a woman who was not, despite what some state, one of the former hostages."
I think the whole article can be viewed with a healthy scepticism.
Wikipedia states:
"He later got engaged to a woman who was not, despite what some state, one of the former hostages."
I think the whole article can be viewed with a healthy scepticism.
[deleted]
Most of these supposed syndromes seem fairly questionable.
Almost all of them just seems like first psycotic episode brought about by a novel stressful environment.
"feelings of dizziness and being lightheaded" sounds much more like a tourist was walking around Italy in the summer with a heavy backpack and not drinking enough water after getting off an airplane and probably impinging too much wine at dinner the night before.
Same with any hotter climate tourist location and 'mysterious syndrome'.
Also combine with perhaps a little change in their stomach biome from drinking different water and/or eating different dairy products, making them more easily dehydrated.
Also combine with perhaps a little change in their stomach biome from drinking different water and/or eating different dairy products, making them more easily dehydrated.
People tend to either over or under indulge while traveling too (I always lose weight when I'm on the road myself) and that's never awesome in either direction
The wiki entry for Paris syndrome debunks the entry in the article. The article seems low quality.
Watch ”Clark” on Netflix for a fun take on events. But basically imagine a charming sociopath bankrobber back in innocent 70’s in Sweden.
With the twist that the bank robbing that gave name to the phrase was made by someone psychotic and the friendly bank robber got called in by the prime minister to negotiate.
With the twist that the bank robbing that gave name to the phrase was made by someone psychotic and the friendly bank robber got called in by the prime minister to negotiate.
I would add "Palo Alto Syndrome" -- It's where you show up on Sand Hill Rd. with a business plan only to discover VC's don't want to look at "reasonable" plans to build a 20M company in 3 years for a 500k investment, but want to invest in "outlandish" plans to build a 200B company in 6 months with a 100M investment.
Something's off about this list. I can't find Brooklyn Syndrome on Wikipedia and think the description is confusing.
The main source I found on Brooklyn Syndrome is from the Names journal [0], which has a nearly identical description.
I wonder if this article is a direct copy of that journal article with lazy paraphrasing from the Atlas Obscura writers to avoid plagiarism. If so, this makes me wonder how much of Atlas Obscura was created this way.
[0]: (PDF) https://ans-names.pitt.edu/ans/article/download/2019/2018/40...
The main source I found on Brooklyn Syndrome is from the Names journal [0], which has a nearly identical description.
I wonder if this article is a direct copy of that journal article with lazy paraphrasing from the Atlas Obscura writers to avoid plagiarism. If so, this makes me wonder how much of Atlas Obscura was created this way.
[0]: (PDF) https://ans-names.pitt.edu/ans/article/download/2019/2018/40...
Maybe this entry is fake, just thrown in there to catch any future copycats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_entry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictitious_entry
> I can't find Brooklyn Syndrome on Wikipedia
Maybe nobody added it.
Maybe nobody added it.
A quick google found this [0], a citation from 1943. Seems to check out, but the source says it's kind of a joke term.
https://www.sciencenews.org/archive/brooklyn-syndrome
https://www.sciencenews.org/archive/brooklyn-syndrome
Could easily have been named Borough Syndrome
They also missed the Glasgow effect - residents have a significantly lower life expectancy that the rest of the UK and, from memory so could be wrong, it affects people who's first line ancestry is from Glasgow but who themselves have never lived there.
> residents have a significantly lower life expectancy that the rest of the UK
Diet - Seems like Glaswegians have forgotten Fee-fi-fo-fum In certain parts of the country, the NHS will prescribe some things to elderly people which increases life span, that would normally be found in high levels elsewhere in the country. I doubt Evian or San Pelligrino is high on the shopping list up there either.
> London Syndrome is when hostages become argumentative toward their captors—often with deadly results.
I think I must be suffering from London syndrome, in much the same way the population of voters feel at general election time, or a congregation feels towards a vicar.
Diet - Seems like Glaswegians have forgotten Fee-fi-fo-fum In certain parts of the country, the NHS will prescribe some things to elderly people which increases life span, that would normally be found in high levels elsewhere in the country. I doubt Evian or San Pelligrino is high on the shopping list up there either.
> London Syndrome is when hostages become argumentative toward their captors—often with deadly results.
I think I must be suffering from London syndrome, in much the same way the population of voters feel at general election time, or a congregation feels towards a vicar.
> Diet - Seems like Glaswegians have forgotten Fee-fi-fo-fum In certain parts of the country
No idea what "fee-fi-fo-fum" is supposed to refer to, but it seems you're suggesting that Glaswegians simply choose to have a poor diet and therefore suffer poor life expectancies as a result. In reality there are myriad social and health problems that come from having a shitload of deprived areas - can be seen in the link Arethuza posted - and all of these contribute in some way to a lower life expectancy.
If you're going for cheap "Scottish people like alcohol and deep fried food" laughs then, ok fair have your fun. But know that there isn't that much difference north and south of the border on that, so if you're searching for a serious answer you would need to dig deeper.
No idea what "fee-fi-fo-fum" is supposed to refer to, but it seems you're suggesting that Glaswegians simply choose to have a poor diet and therefore suffer poor life expectancies as a result. In reality there are myriad social and health problems that come from having a shitload of deprived areas - can be seen in the link Arethuza posted - and all of these contribute in some way to a lower life expectancy.
If you're going for cheap "Scottish people like alcohol and deep fried food" laughs then, ok fair have your fun. But know that there isn't that much difference north and south of the border on that, so if you're searching for a serious answer you would need to dig deeper.
> No idea what "fee-fi-fo-fum" is supposed to refer to
Calcium.
I dont think being on the bread line is useful when watching harrys farm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juXXt4ZHS-8&t=467s
or being in damp conditions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladosporium#Health_effects
I can smell the mould in some brand new sliced bread and baps when its not out of date or anything visibly wrong with it.
Calcium.
I dont think being on the bread line is useful when watching harrys farm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juXXt4ZHS-8&t=467s
or being in damp conditions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladosporium#Health_effects
I can smell the mould in some brand new sliced bread and baps when its not out of date or anything visibly wrong with it.
The Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation is fascinating and rather grim:
https://simd.scot/
e.g. Select the most deprived 5% from the key - they are mostly in Glasgow :-(
https://simd.scot/
e.g. Select the most deprived 5% from the key - they are mostly in Glasgow :-(
Sounds like... genetics?
What’s so fascinating is that Edinburgh and Glasgow are only 50 miles apart. Just 50 miles in where someone’s parents or even grandparents were born and moved then away from has a legitimate impact on their life expectancy.
That's not psychological so it doesn't belong on this list.
I think they have forgotten a few. It's already Friday afternoon here, so I hope you'll be able to excuse my ChatGPT indulgence:
Silicon Valley Disruption Delusion - This peculiar state of mind is characterized by an individual's inclination to perceive every life aspect as a sector ripe for modernization. Symptoms include an increased use of entrepreneurial vernacular, spontaneous pitching to unsuspecting venture capitalists, and a tendency to self-identify as a "founder." In extreme cases, one might even start praising the virtues of blockchain for everyday activities.
Amsterdam Cycle Confusion - In this unusual psychological state, the individual develops a belief that they should travel exclusively by bicycle. This can lead to fervent cycling even in non-bike-friendly areas and a distinct reluctance to use pedestrian pathways or motorized transport.
Munich Brewmaster Belief - Individuals affected by this syndrome are consumed by the idea that they are master brewers. The condition manifests in an incessant discussion about hops and yeast, an urge to experiment with brewing in unconventional locations, and the staging of impromptu beer tasting competitions.
Palo Alto Unicorn Unreality - Those affected by this syndrome exhibit an uncanny tendency to transform every idea into a potential billion-dollar startup or 'unicorn.' They might display irregular sleep patterns, subsist mainly on energy drinks and quick meals, and their conversations are often peppered with phrases like "the next big thing," and "exit strategy."
Seattle Server Overload Syndrome - This cognitive anomaly leads a person to believe they're akin to a server, required to handle multiple requests concurrently. They may develop an unhealthy penchant for multitasking and often describe their mental state using terms such as "processing," "bandwidth," and "buffering."
Silicon Valley Disruption Delusion - This peculiar state of mind is characterized by an individual's inclination to perceive every life aspect as a sector ripe for modernization. Symptoms include an increased use of entrepreneurial vernacular, spontaneous pitching to unsuspecting venture capitalists, and a tendency to self-identify as a "founder." In extreme cases, one might even start praising the virtues of blockchain for everyday activities.
Amsterdam Cycle Confusion - In this unusual psychological state, the individual develops a belief that they should travel exclusively by bicycle. This can lead to fervent cycling even in non-bike-friendly areas and a distinct reluctance to use pedestrian pathways or motorized transport.
Munich Brewmaster Belief - Individuals affected by this syndrome are consumed by the idea that they are master brewers. The condition manifests in an incessant discussion about hops and yeast, an urge to experiment with brewing in unconventional locations, and the staging of impromptu beer tasting competitions.
Palo Alto Unicorn Unreality - Those affected by this syndrome exhibit an uncanny tendency to transform every idea into a potential billion-dollar startup or 'unicorn.' They might display irregular sleep patterns, subsist mainly on energy drinks and quick meals, and their conversations are often peppered with phrases like "the next big thing," and "exit strategy."
Seattle Server Overload Syndrome - This cognitive anomaly leads a person to believe they're akin to a server, required to handle multiple requests concurrently. They may develop an unhealthy penchant for multitasking and often describe their mental state using terms such as "processing," "bandwidth," and "buffering."
Madison syndrome. The delusion that January is the time to play and ride bicycles outdoors instead of properly hibernating.
They missed Havana syndrome.
Is that a psychological disorder? (I think the jury might still be out on that.)
Ah, yes, the misterious technology from a country on a 50+ years blockade. Totally not made out.
Isn't that just a civil service grift? As in, is actually a recognisable condition?
Not sure what you're implying here, but just because there isn't a scientific consensus on a condition does not immediately make it a "grift".
Calling it a "grift" may be harsh, but "Havana syndrome" as a result of some kind of Cuban sonic super-weapon that happens to have the same noise as some local crickets was definitely an enormous stretch. That plenty of people played along with it to the extent that bills were passed allocating funding for the treatment of these people might not be a grift but it's certainly something extremely peculiar. With US healthcare in the state that it is, I get that some people might need to be creative to get treated so I can't exactly blame anyone (nor get mad since I don't pay US taxes).
My guess is more of a mass hysteria situation combined with politicians that are exceptionally credible toward anything the military says than a conscious grifting.
> Detroit Syndrome is a form of age discrimination in which workers of a certain age are replaced by those who are younger, faster, and stronger, not to mention endowed with new skills better suited for the modern workplace.
Does a certain 20yo junior writer for a Web site resent the senior writers?
Does a certain 20yo junior writer for a Web site resent the senior writers?
I think this is more a statement about the Detroit auto scene being objectively behind other areas. Yeah age discrimination plays a part but in this case it's actually justified as opposed to just being cheaper.
From TFA:
The syndrome, reported in 2011, gets its name from Detroit, and more specifically from its reputation as a manufacturing hub for automobiles, in which newer models would replace the older ones on a regular basis.
I.e., "replaced by a newer/younger model".
The syndrome, reported in 2011, gets its name from Detroit, and more specifically from its reputation as a manufacturing hub for automobiles, in which newer models would replace the older ones on a regular basis.
I.e., "replaced by a newer/younger model".
Cambridgehaven Syndrome is marked by an inability to start an anecdote without "When I was at Harvard/Yale..."
Heh, in my family that is "Down-under Syndrome".
As in, "oh - that's not how they do it in Australia, did you know I lived in (or visited) Australia for 'x' amount of time?"
As in, "oh - that's not how they do it in Australia, did you know I lived in (or visited) Australia for 'x' amount of time?"
I guess the Seattle Freeze [1] didn't make the cut?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Freeze
Hacker News Syndrome involves saying "externalities" to a pathological extent.
I would have figured London Syndrome as being people who visit London and then when back start speaking with with a pretentious posh accent.
Always heard about Florence syndrome as Stendhal's, but never did click before.
My bet is that in the future somebody will eventually find a direct relationship between the symptoms and the chemicals used to clean the museums or preserve antique valuable pieces from the attack of insects and molds.
As long as the ventilation systems (and insurance?) improve should be more and more rare.
My bet is that in the future somebody will eventually find a direct relationship between the symptoms and the chemicals used to clean the museums or preserve antique valuable pieces from the attack of insects and molds.
As long as the ventilation systems (and insurance?) improve should be more and more rare.
I can confirm, being from Florence, that noone calls it that, it is Stendhal's Syndrome alright.
The name was given with reference to a passage in Stendhal's writing about a visit to Santa Croce in 1817, by the psychiatrist that "invented" it and wrote a book about it (Dr. Graziella Magherini).
Personally I always found it improper, as the original experience as described by Stendhal was a temporary and very "light" mental confusion, that could have well been due to heat or low pressure or a similar physical reason coincidentally happening at the same time he was in awe for the art before his eyes, while the stories in the book are about patients that had severe symptoms and that took days, weeks or even months to recover.
There is an interview to the doctor, mentioned on the Wikipedia page, archived here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20110714081259/http://www.metrop...
that is worth reading.
The "chemicals" theory is improbable because at the time the book was published it considered around 100 cases she attributed to the syndrome over a 10 years period, so 10 cases per year to be compared with the millions of tourists per year in Florence (even in the '70's), and it is not like in Florence museums different substances are used than in the rest of Italy.
Whether this syndrome actually exists or not, is up to debate, but surely the doctor found a very catchy name for it.
The name was given with reference to a passage in Stendhal's writing about a visit to Santa Croce in 1817, by the psychiatrist that "invented" it and wrote a book about it (Dr. Graziella Magherini).
Personally I always found it improper, as the original experience as described by Stendhal was a temporary and very "light" mental confusion, that could have well been due to heat or low pressure or a similar physical reason coincidentally happening at the same time he was in awe for the art before his eyes, while the stories in the book are about patients that had severe symptoms and that took days, weeks or even months to recover.
There is an interview to the doctor, mentioned on the Wikipedia page, archived here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20110714081259/http://www.metrop...
that is worth reading.
The "chemicals" theory is improbable because at the time the book was published it considered around 100 cases she attributed to the syndrome over a 10 years period, so 10 cases per year to be compared with the millions of tourists per year in Florence (even in the '70's), and it is not like in Florence museums different substances are used than in the rest of Italy.
Whether this syndrome actually exists or not, is up to debate, but surely the doctor found a very catchy name for it.
Vancouver Canada has a reputation as no-fun city and also a place where it's tough to make friends. Which is weird when you consider that it's a gem of a city with abundant natural and man-made attractions.
Can I suggest that feeling bored and lonely despite idyllic surroundings defines "Vancouver Syndrome" ?
/s but kinda not
Can I suggest that feeling bored and lonely despite idyllic surroundings defines "Vancouver Syndrome" ?
/s but kinda not
Can't forget "The Danbury Shakes" [1] (clinically known as Erethism).
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danbury_shakes&re...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Danbury_shakes&re...
I know someone who experienced Florence syndrome. Quite interesting. Seems almost alien to me.
Do Toronto next!
It should involve an otherwise emotional, feeling, social and empathic creature dissociating into a cold, atomized, post-social entity with the uncanny ability to tune out the world and everything in it as it buzzes towards its goal.
It should involve an otherwise emotional, feeling, social and empathic creature dissociating into a cold, atomized, post-social entity with the uncanny ability to tune out the world and everything in it as it buzzes towards its goal.
Guess it doesn’t make the cut because it’s not called “Phoenix Fever”, but Valley Fever is a local affliction, stemmed from dust and spores being kicked into the air. It’s quite nasty, not that anyone here needed less of a reason to visit Phoenix, Arizona.
I contracted Valley Fever, but I went to see a therapist, and it cleared up after 3 years of weekly CBT.
Kinda funny that instead of “Seattle Syndrome,” we just called it “S.A.D.”
Slow day at the clickbait farm?
San Francisco
Having visited Tokyo (which I assume is the most Paris-like Japan gets?) and Paris (just got back from most recent trip), this rings true.
Average "mild annoyance" from a Parisian would equal "severe disrespect" from a Tokyo resident.
Plus add in the French propensity not to apologize for normal, everyday oops-type things, and I imagine it'd be very jarring.
That said, on my most recent trip to Paris, I actually found Parisians a lot nicer than the last time I was there (~1995ish?).
There's a lot of Gallic-isms, but even as an American with extremely bad and limited French, most people were very nice.
PS: Not sure why tacos are the new craze in Paris, but y'all should really import some Tejanos to get the full experience. Feta never belongs on a taco that's not shrimp.