Western Ignorance: Failure to See China Beyond the Party(thechinaacademy.org)
thechinaacademy.org
Western Ignorance: Failure to See China Beyond the Party
https://thechinaacademy.org/western-ignorance-failure-to-see-china-beyond-the-party/
33 comments
It's refreshing to see a comment that is fair and not immediately West++ East-- on HN - thank you. Too bad it'll get suppressed with the article under the flags as usual...
Take the rapid rise of China’s EV industry in recent years as an example. There is already a huge amount of commentary on this, but most discussions overemphasise the role of the Chinese government, attributing the industry’s success to factors such as government subsidies, market distortion [扭曲市场] and organised intellectual property theft. However, few mention the brutal, cut-throat competitiveness [九死一生的惨烈竞争] of the Chinese market, the vast supply chain network built by Chinese companies, Chinese engineers’ higher level of technical skills [更高的专业素质], or workers’ disciplined and tireless drive to work hard [勤奋忍耐的作风].
Most HN commentators on China always devolve into the same argument about how China's government subsidizes EVs and stolen IP. Meanwhile, every advantage China has in engineering prowess, supply chain management, decades planning ahead, and ruthless competition are completely ignored.
I think people on Hacker News should go to Shenzen. Just visit once. It's not scary. It's 100x safer than any major American city - no matter if you're white/black/latin/asian. It's a city that is at least 10 years ahead of anything I've seen in the US. The west continue to turn a blind eye to what is really happening in China and march on with their anti-China propaganda in the media.
I suppose the US billionaires need you to hate China so their businesses will have less competition.
The phrase I come back to when I hear/see xenophobic stuff about China is: "China has more honor students than the US has total students."
Also heavily agree that Americans need to travel more. Most Americans have absolutely no idea how far behind this country is in so many ways.
Also heavily agree that Americans need to travel more. Most Americans have absolutely no idea how far behind this country is in so many ways.
Being open-minded and able to understand others' points of view and way of working doesn't correlate very well with traveling.
In fact, if anything, in my experience it has the reverse effect because people who travel feel like they know shit after having been moderately in another culture and pretend as if they now understand profound things when it's hardly the case.
Being able to travel is expensive and to get there you need to have some sort of compliance with the dominant ideology, so it's like asking people to let of what actually allowed them to do that in the first place.
On top of that, we don't need more people burning fuel to travel for pleasure to satisfy their desire for new things and social status. It doesn't bring anything more than personal satisfaction; ideas can travel in plenty of ways...
In fact, if anything, in my experience it has the reverse effect because people who travel feel like they know shit after having been moderately in another culture and pretend as if they now understand profound things when it's hardly the case.
Being able to travel is expensive and to get there you need to have some sort of compliance with the dominant ideology, so it's like asking people to let of what actually allowed them to do that in the first place.
On top of that, we don't need more people burning fuel to travel for pleasure to satisfy their desire for new things and social status. It doesn't bring anything more than personal satisfaction; ideas can travel in plenty of ways...
> I agree. It happens very often on Hacker News as well where you'd think the average IQ is slightly higher than the public and can see through the propaganda.
IQ doesn't help people see through propaganda, it helps people justify propaganda.
Being neurodivergent helps with seeing through propaganda, but tends to make one socially awkward, perhaps even outcast — think of kids in Catholic families sincerely asking if consuming the Eucharist makes them cannibals, basically every group has something like that where everyone just glosses over the gap without thinking about it.
Former partner of mine was opposed to Musk before it was fashionable, simply because he actually made a success out of Tesla and was therefore rich (this was well before him libelling the cave diver). She supported the original founders over Musk while also opposing cars in general in favour of public transport, and was a green campaigner who supported the UK coal mining strikes.
It happens to all of us. You can almost certainly find some example of that in me — I struggle to find it myself, but I have noticed it. Unfortunately I've also noticed that I keep forgetting the incidents…
IQ doesn't help people see through propaganda, it helps people justify propaganda.
Being neurodivergent helps with seeing through propaganda, but tends to make one socially awkward, perhaps even outcast — think of kids in Catholic families sincerely asking if consuming the Eucharist makes them cannibals, basically every group has something like that where everyone just glosses over the gap without thinking about it.
Former partner of mine was opposed to Musk before it was fashionable, simply because he actually made a success out of Tesla and was therefore rich (this was well before him libelling the cave diver). She supported the original founders over Musk while also opposing cars in general in favour of public transport, and was a green campaigner who supported the UK coal mining strikes.
It happens to all of us. You can almost certainly find some example of that in me — I struggle to find it myself, but I have noticed it. Unfortunately I've also noticed that I keep forgetting the incidents…
The weird thing is, the market distortions and subsidies are in fact really good policy that many in the US are simply brainwashed against generally.
You'll regularly see people put down Tesla because EVs got subsidies. The subsidies seem to have been less effective than the Chinese ones, but they're objecting to the very concept of subsidies.
I agree also that there's racism and ignorance about the quality of the engineering, but to some degree you need to create the market to allow the engineers to build and learn what works in practice and to do value engineering on making things at scale cheaply.
There's a reasonable amount of research on this for solar PV, how government support kicked the market off and then the mass production took over to drive prices down.
You'll regularly see people put down Tesla because EVs got subsidies. The subsidies seem to have been less effective than the Chinese ones, but they're objecting to the very concept of subsidies.
I agree also that there's racism and ignorance about the quality of the engineering, but to some degree you need to create the market to allow the engineers to build and learn what works in practice and to do value engineering on making things at scale cheaply.
There's a reasonable amount of research on this for solar PV, how government support kicked the market off and then the mass production took over to drive prices down.
> It's a city that is at least 10 years ahead of anything I've seen in the US.
Being very honest, traveling in the USA feels like I'm traveling back to the late 90s/early 2000s, every city feels a bit tired. It's not the West, it's the US.
Being very honest, traveling in the USA feels like I'm traveling back to the late 90s/early 2000s, every city feels a bit tired. It's not the West, it's the US.
> Meanwhile, every advantage China has in engineering prowess, supply chain management, decades planning ahead, and ruthless competition are completely ignored.
Don't forget to include their advantage in slave labor in that list. Wait, maybe that's included in the part of the ruthless competition.
Don't forget to include their advantage in slave labor in that list. Wait, maybe that's included in the part of the ruthless competition.
Yes, it’s terrible when that happens.
https://www.epi.org/publication/rooted-racism-prison-labor/
https://www.epi.org/publication/rooted-racism-prison-labor/
> Most HN commentators on China always devolve into the same argument about how China's government subsidizes EVs and stolen IP. Meanwhile, every advantage China has in engineering prowess, supply chain management, decades planning ahead, and ruthless competition are completely ignored.
Those statements are not exclusive--they can all be true.
At the same time, because HN IS better engaged with sort of thing, they can ALSO plainly see with their own two eyes when "The Party" yanks the chain on a Jack Ma or Naomi Wu. They are fully aware of incidents like Huawei stealing Cisco software to the point of duplicating bugs. They have worked with some brilliant Chinese engineers--but they have also seen how much many of those engineers wanted to get out from under that system. etc. etc.
I can have conflicted feelings that I would dearly love to see BYD completely splatter the arrogant, complacent, ossified US carmakers while not being happy that the result would irretrievably destroy large chunks of US industrial production and engineering and benefit a governmental regime that I very much distrust.
HN has its faults, but they are likely to be some of the best educated about China--both the good and bad points--from personal experience.
Those statements are not exclusive--they can all be true.
At the same time, because HN IS better engaged with sort of thing, they can ALSO plainly see with their own two eyes when "The Party" yanks the chain on a Jack Ma or Naomi Wu. They are fully aware of incidents like Huawei stealing Cisco software to the point of duplicating bugs. They have worked with some brilliant Chinese engineers--but they have also seen how much many of those engineers wanted to get out from under that system. etc. etc.
I can have conflicted feelings that I would dearly love to see BYD completely splatter the arrogant, complacent, ossified US carmakers while not being happy that the result would irretrievably destroy large chunks of US industrial production and engineering and benefit a governmental regime that I very much distrust.
HN has its faults, but they are likely to be some of the best educated about China--both the good and bad points--from personal experience.
> but they are likely to be some of the best educated about China
the best educated about China? Not at all
the best educated about China by MSM? Yes
the best educated about China? Not at all
the best educated about China by MSM? Yes
Your response gives no refutation or engagement with substantive claims.
As I pointed out, HN are among some of the most likely people in the US to have direct personal experience with Chinese nationals. In addition, those same readers are also far more prone to engage with alternative media than the average US citizen. On top of that, they are also likely engaging the best of Chinese nationals as they both have the motivation and intelligence to learn English and operate outside of the country.
If the reality of interacting with these people contradicts Chinese propaganda like this article, well, that is its own message.
As I pointed out, HN are among some of the most likely people in the US to have direct personal experience with Chinese nationals. In addition, those same readers are also far more prone to engage with alternative media than the average US citizen. On top of that, they are also likely engaging the best of Chinese nationals as they both have the motivation and intelligence to learn English and operate outside of the country.
If the reality of interacting with these people contradicts Chinese propaganda like this article, well, that is its own message.
sorry for any possible offence of my following words, because my english is so poor that i may not able to pick more polite and euphemistic words
You are too arrogant. Your ignorance limits your understanding of yourself, and I have no way to help you realize that. If there were any way, as others mentioned before, it would be to come to China and talk with the locals
> If the reality of interacting with these people contradicts Chinese propaganda like this article
here's the problem, you and most of others live in the bubble, in that bubble, information is filtered and selected
that article, is originally a Chinese article for Chinese audience, it was not writen for americans like you at the first time, there're tons of articles in China, written by chinese reasearchers, with various opinions, it just one of the few were translated by the site and submited here by me
you refuse to read or understand it before you label it as 'propaganda'
and, not suprisely, it was flagged, for reason of being ccp propaganda i guess
for information you are willing to accept, it is the reality of interacting, for any information you dont like(or dont fit the current narratives), you call it china propaganda
whatever you see yourself, but the reality is, most hn users know 0 truth abt China, all information you got is from MSM, (or alternative media, they say same narratives in most time)
> HN are among some of the most likely people in the US to have direct personal experience with Chinese nationals
a simple persperctive, i'm the one with Chinese national literally
does the direct personal experience with me educate you anything?
or your first idea is 'yet another ccp agent'
> the best of Chinese nationals as they both have the motivation and intelligence to learn English and operate outside of the country.
sign… you can't realize it at all, can you?
You are too arrogant. Your ignorance limits your understanding of yourself, and I have no way to help you realize that. If there were any way, as others mentioned before, it would be to come to China and talk with the locals
> If the reality of interacting with these people contradicts Chinese propaganda like this article
here's the problem, you and most of others live in the bubble, in that bubble, information is filtered and selected
that article, is originally a Chinese article for Chinese audience, it was not writen for americans like you at the first time, there're tons of articles in China, written by chinese reasearchers, with various opinions, it just one of the few were translated by the site and submited here by me
you refuse to read or understand it before you label it as 'propaganda'
and, not suprisely, it was flagged, for reason of being ccp propaganda i guess
for information you are willing to accept, it is the reality of interacting, for any information you dont like(or dont fit the current narratives), you call it china propaganda
whatever you see yourself, but the reality is, most hn users know 0 truth abt China, all information you got is from MSM, (or alternative media, they say same narratives in most time)
> HN are among some of the most likely people in the US to have direct personal experience with Chinese nationals
a simple persperctive, i'm the one with Chinese national literally
does the direct personal experience with me educate you anything?
or your first idea is 'yet another ccp agent'
> the best of Chinese nationals as they both have the motivation and intelligence to learn English and operate outside of the country.
sign… you can't realize it at all, can you?
Which is why I advocate that HN people go to Shenzen. If they truly think that China copies/steals their most important tech, they'll be in for a shock because China is ahead in many industries. China can't copy and lead at the same time.
On the contrary, you cannot lead without copying advances others make in their quest to catch up with you, or you'll be stuck having to rediscover everything yourself. Of course you cannot lead without any advances of your own either, but successfully copying what's known to work is already half the battle.
I didn't say China didn't steal/copy. The US sent spies to Great Britain to try to steal their cotton machine designs during the industrial revolution. Europe copied China's paper making, book printing, gun powder, noodles, compass.
Such is the cycle of civilization.
Once advanced enough, China will have its own problem of other nations stealing their tech.
Such is the cycle of civilization.
Once advanced enough, China will have its own problem of other nations stealing their tech.
You said "China can't copy and lead at the same time." I'm saying leaders always have to be copying, or they don't stay leaders for long. Market leaders won't hesitate to copy (not "steal") the work of overall less advanced companies if they can benefit from it somehow.
> average IQ is slightly higher than the public
Many on HN are former or current MIC types. Ideological mindset is like a mental straight jacket. As long as the object under consideration fits within the ideological framework, the mind is free to do its bit. When it doesn't, IQ drops like a rock.
Many on HN are former or current MIC types. Ideological mindset is like a mental straight jacket. As long as the object under consideration fits within the ideological framework, the mind is free to do its bit. When it doesn't, IQ drops like a rock.
> It's 100x safer than any major American city
Is it safe to hold up a blank sheet of paper?
Is it safe to hold up a blank sheet of paper?
this is literally propaganda in the purest form.
If you read this, and China in any US mainstream media, you'd have a more balanced view. Consuming propaganda on both sides will give you a greater understanding overall.
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that 95% of anything China in western media is negative, 4% neutral, and 1% positive. So don't fret. You're not going to suddenly love China just by reading this one piece.
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that 95% of anything China in western media is negative, 4% neutral, and 1% positive. So don't fret. You're not going to suddenly love China just by reading this one piece.
this is a state controlled media outlet?
Is there any Chinese media outlet that's not party controlled?
No, HN is only loosely affiliated with the American oligarchs.
Human rights - none are ignorent.
Speaking as an outsider looking in, the Chinese perspective in 2025 appears to be composed of pragmatism, heads-down understanding of each person’s (relative) insignificance and how it leads to a need to work hard; belief in the collective ability to win; and now they’re seeing some world leadership, some carefully managed pride. If reading this triggers you, have another read of https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe.
The article isn’t propaganda. It’s an interview with a person who understands the fine lines that must be walked to get through to people in a politically charged space at a politically charged time.
It’s a really insightful read.