Jolla Outsells iPhone 5S and 5C in Finland(jollausers.com)
jollausers.com
Jolla Outsells iPhone 5S and 5C in Finland
http://www.jollausers.com/2014/01/jolla-outsells-iphone-5s-and-5c-in-finland/
83 comments
True, but I personally can say that I'm very happy to hear this, as I've been hoping for a serious contender besides Android and IOS.
I would like to have a good phone, with a non-dead app ecosystem that is sold to me by a phone vendor as a stand-alone product without a lifestyle template/belief system attached to it.
Until this news, Jolla was an "also ran" in my perception, now they are a prime contender for my next smartphone. (Might also be tempted by an upper-tier Firefox OS phone, if that ever happens.)
Maybe, just maybe, there will come a time when we have a major smartphone company in Europe. I'm all for it.
I would like to have a good phone, with a non-dead app ecosystem that is sold to me by a phone vendor as a stand-alone product without a lifestyle template/belief system attached to it.
Until this news, Jolla was an "also ran" in my perception, now they are a prime contender for my next smartphone. (Might also be tempted by an upper-tier Firefox OS phone, if that ever happens.)
Maybe, just maybe, there will come a time when we have a major smartphone company in Europe. I'm all for it.
"Maybe, just maybe, there will come a time when we have a major smartphone company in Europe again. I'm all for it."
(FTFY :) Ericsson pioneered with the R380, Symbian was a decent smartphone OS for its day, and Nokia was Nokia)
I also want Europe to have a major smartphone company, and I say that as an overtly (and possibly overly) patriotic American. Competition and choice are good things. Duopolies are usually not good.
(FTFY :) Ericsson pioneered with the R380, Symbian was a decent smartphone OS for its day, and Nokia was Nokia)
I also want Europe to have a major smartphone company, and I say that as an overtly (and possibly overly) patriotic American. Competition and choice are good things. Duopolies are usually not good.
"True, but I personally can say that I'm very happy to hear this, as I've been hoping for a serious contender besides Android and IOS."
Give it a couple years. Samsung's the biggest manufacturer of Android devices and they've been working on Tizen[0] to curtail their dependency on Google.
[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizen
Give it a couple years. Samsung's the biggest manufacturer of Android devices and they've been working on Tizen[0] to curtail their dependency on Google.
[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tizen
I agree, I think we really need someone who will try to make something new and gain small % of the markets so that ios/android will also have to start innovating something cool again. That said, I've personally been burned before by the n900 and N9 which were pretty much "dead on arrival", so I'm a bit reluctant to just buy the Jolla device. Even though the company behind the device is totally different.
I think I'll have to give my iphone5 to my mom and in return take her N9 and install the Sailfish OS to it, just to get the feel of the OS in daily use.
I think I'll have to give my iphone5 to my mom and in return take her N9 and install the Sailfish OS to it, just to get the feel of the OS in daily use.
About the Firefox OS, you could just flash a Nexus phone and have it run on that.
Angry Birds soda for a time was said to outpace Coke & Pepsi in Finland too: http://thenextweb.com/shareables/2012/11/21/rovio-angry-bird...
Jolla is satisfying pent-up demand for their phone
That's the biggest one, IMO. Launch numbers are largely meaningless, let's see how it's doing in two months, let alone six month's time.
That's the biggest one, IMO. Launch numbers are largely meaningless, let's see how it's doing in two months, let alone six month's time.
The sales number that the article is quoting are for December. I'm not completely sure when Jolla phones started shipping but I think it was early December so this might very well include all the pre-ordered phones.
The phone isn't carrier locked, you can buy it online and then put any SIM inside it.
Also: I expect Apple.fi sells many more iPhones in Finland than Jolla.com sells Jollas.
But it _is_ good that they can boast about this. Unfortunately, they will need all the good press they can get. It will be a hard fight to survive.
But it _is_ good that they can boast about this. Unfortunately, they will need all the good press they can get. It will be a hard fight to survive.
I got the jolla on the 28th or so (bought mine in late November), and I've been using it a little since. I haven't switched from my iPhone, but I do have some impressions:
Good:
- Sailfish OS is really nice looking, and the gestures have grown on me. Actually, I find myself trying to perform the gestures like closing an app by swiping down on the iPhone as well, and when it doesn't work, the iPhone feels old and clunky.
- The phone feels good in the hand, the back has a pleasant smooth feel. It's nowhere as plastic as the galaxy phones, but doesn't have the weight and solidity of the iPhone. In general, I'm happily surprised by the quality of the hardware.
- Terminal and SSH access is one click away.
Con:
- There are no apps. The ones that are there (a media player, a calendar, a mail app) are extremely bare bones. They work, but lack essential functionality. On the plus side, they look good. Well, the browser looks a bit iffy and some of the UI choices there are no good.
- Android apps don't really work that well. Of the ones I've tried, only the official Twitter app and the Youtube player really work okay. Most apps either fail to detect network connectivity or crash. Plus, the Android apps run in a VM, not appearing as separate apps in the sailfish UI, and are pretty sluggish. Not a great experience.
- The screen is not great, fonts in the browser in particular look terrible. Hopefully this is something that can be improved (some of the fonts in sailfish itself look great). It's not a terrible screen, but it's fairly low resolution.
- The camera is pretty bad. This is a bit sad, since my last maemo/meego phone was the N900, and it had a fantastic camera for its time.
- Wireless and 3G data are flaky, and 4G is not working at all, yet.
Right now, my impression is, despite its flaws, pretty positive. Once there are more apps, the worst bugs are fixed and the browser is a bit more polished, it'll be a pretty nice OS on a slightly outdated phone. If they can get sailfish running on something like the nexus 5, I think that could be a pretty nice choice.
Good:
- Sailfish OS is really nice looking, and the gestures have grown on me. Actually, I find myself trying to perform the gestures like closing an app by swiping down on the iPhone as well, and when it doesn't work, the iPhone feels old and clunky.
- The phone feels good in the hand, the back has a pleasant smooth feel. It's nowhere as plastic as the galaxy phones, but doesn't have the weight and solidity of the iPhone. In general, I'm happily surprised by the quality of the hardware.
- Terminal and SSH access is one click away.
Con:
- There are no apps. The ones that are there (a media player, a calendar, a mail app) are extremely bare bones. They work, but lack essential functionality. On the plus side, they look good. Well, the browser looks a bit iffy and some of the UI choices there are no good.
- Android apps don't really work that well. Of the ones I've tried, only the official Twitter app and the Youtube player really work okay. Most apps either fail to detect network connectivity or crash. Plus, the Android apps run in a VM, not appearing as separate apps in the sailfish UI, and are pretty sluggish. Not a great experience.
- The screen is not great, fonts in the browser in particular look terrible. Hopefully this is something that can be improved (some of the fonts in sailfish itself look great). It's not a terrible screen, but it's fairly low resolution.
- The camera is pretty bad. This is a bit sad, since my last maemo/meego phone was the N900, and it had a fantastic camera for its time.
- Wireless and 3G data are flaky, and 4G is not working at all, yet.
Right now, my impression is, despite its flaws, pretty positive. Once there are more apps, the worst bugs are fixed and the browser is a bit more polished, it'll be a pretty nice OS on a slightly outdated phone. If they can get sailfish running on something like the nexus 5, I think that could be a pretty nice choice.
Not sure if I should jump in now, or wait for the 2nd device... I'm really looking forward to use a non-American device due to privacy/surveillance concerns.
As far as I can tunnel all my connections through VPN and have a decent maps app (perhaps based on openstreetmap) I'm set. A big plus would be to have stuff like LINE and Skype from Android in a sandboxed environment so it would not access any of my data. Same for the browser.
With proper browsers most of the native apps are not really necessary.
As far as I can tunnel all my connections through VPN and have a decent maps app (perhaps based on openstreetmap) I'm set. A big plus would be to have stuff like LINE and Skype from Android in a sandboxed environment so it would not access any of my data. Same for the browser.
With proper browsers most of the native apps are not really necessary.
Well, I'm cynical enough to think that there might never be a second device, so I took the plunge now. ;)
VPN: Haven't tried yet, waiting to see what the next update brings. I know people in the forums have had some success running OpenVPN, but I don't think there is any UI for it yet.
On maps: The included maps app is not great. I think the underlying map data is pretty good, certainly better than apple maps, but the UI lacks features (like the other apps). I doubt there will ever be turn-by-turn navigation, there's no street view. It's actually possible to install and use the Google maps app for android, and it at least doesn't crash.
LINE: Just tried installing and running it, seems to work perfectly fine (with caveats about running an android app in sailfish).
People say Skype is one of the android apps that works the best. I've installed it but haven't actually tried a Skype call, so I can't speak to that.
Edit: Missed the part about sandboxing. I think there has been some talk about that, at the moment there are no access controls for individual apps at all. All the parts that need to change to make that possible are open source, so hopefully someone will make it happen.
VPN: Haven't tried yet, waiting to see what the next update brings. I know people in the forums have had some success running OpenVPN, but I don't think there is any UI for it yet.
On maps: The included maps app is not great. I think the underlying map data is pretty good, certainly better than apple maps, but the UI lacks features (like the other apps). I doubt there will ever be turn-by-turn navigation, there's no street view. It's actually possible to install and use the Google maps app for android, and it at least doesn't crash.
LINE: Just tried installing and running it, seems to work perfectly fine (with caveats about running an android app in sailfish).
People say Skype is one of the android apps that works the best. I've installed it but haven't actually tried a Skype call, so I can't speak to that.
Edit: Missed the part about sandboxing. I think there has been some talk about that, at the moment there are no access controls for individual apps at all. All the parts that need to change to make that possible are open source, so hopefully someone will make it happen.
You use Terminal and SSH on the phone???
I do! Though on Android. For things like IRC sessions I prefer to have them running in a screen session remotely and just ssh in. Well, mosh rather than ssh, because it has better support for intermittent connectivity: http://mosh.mit.edu/
During the company christmas dinner, I ssh'd in to our monitoring server to disable alerts for a server that had been decommissioned (someone forgot to disable the alerts after shutting the server down before we left the office).
Ssh on the phone is cumbersome but indispensable for me - it means I have fewer reasons to lug laptops around or find myself suddenly looking for a computer I can borrow. I'm using Android, and there at least it can be made fairly bearable with things like Hackers Keyboard which gives you an onscreen keyboard more suitable for the command line.
Ssh on the phone is cumbersome but indispensable for me - it means I have fewer reasons to lug laptops around or find myself suddenly looking for a computer I can borrow. I'm using Android, and there at least it can be made fairly bearable with things like Hackers Keyboard which gives you an onscreen keyboard more suitable for the command line.
I've used SSH on my iPhone on occasion (and on the iPad somewhat more regularly). It's not that utterly crazy, as long as you have a good SSH app and can run something like tmux or screen on the server side.
It's great, yeah. One useful example of what you can do with SSH access is to set up a cronjob on a computer to do automatic backups of the phone.
I use mosh[1] via JuiceSSH[2] on my phone.
[1] http://mosh.mit.edu/ [2] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sonelli.ju...
[1] http://mosh.mit.edu/ [2] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sonelli.ju...
As do I. I have a keyboard phone, and things like irssi and screen have nothing that can compete in the Android market.
Maemo/Meego and Symbian phone have that since a very long time.
As an N900 user, probably 10 times a day. It often makes up for a lack of hyperspecialized apps. The only way I regularly get data on and off of my phone is rsync.
Can you cite an usage that doesn't compensate for a missing feature of the platform? iOS offers wifi sync and backup (plus cloud if you want), and there is an ecosystem of products around it to explore/modify/share backups in the standard format, so I don't see me running SSH for it even if I could.
> Can you cite an usage that doesn't compensate for a missing feature of the platform?
A missing feature, such as your phone not running the server that you need to do light maintenance on?
> iOS offers wifi sync and backup (plus cloud if you want), and there is an ecosystem of products around it to explore/modify/share backups in the standard format
There is also an ecosystem of products to explore/modify/share rsync backups. Tools like cd, mv, cp, cat, tar... Sorry if I sound harsh, but the wheel can only be invented so many times. I agree that the iPhone backup system is a huge convenience, but if you really want your backups in a "standard format" you'll use a format you are sure Apple won't change at a hunch and that you can manipulate in the same way you do your other backups.
A missing feature, such as your phone not running the server that you need to do light maintenance on?
> iOS offers wifi sync and backup (plus cloud if you want), and there is an ecosystem of products around it to explore/modify/share backups in the standard format
There is also an ecosystem of products to explore/modify/share rsync backups. Tools like cd, mv, cp, cat, tar... Sorry if I sound harsh, but the wheel can only be invented so many times. I agree that the iPhone backup system is a huge convenience, but if you really want your backups in a "standard format" you'll use a format you are sure Apple won't change at a hunch and that you can manipulate in the same way you do your other backups.
The problem here is that UNIX tools and shell are not a solution for a generic consumer device. So unless you are arguing that everybody should be able to use them (in which case, I leave the discussion for not being interested in debating the topic), you need to accept the fact that there has to be a user-level feature for backup. At which point, unless it is badly implemented, it is probably far easier and safe than trying to mirror with rsync your phone and then figure out how to handle software upgrades, restores, different partitions, separate software from data, and whatnot.
Moreover, I would add that file-based manipulation in my opinion is useful when the single files do expose some value. If I need to backup a sqlite DB with my contacts with rsync, I might as well use a high-level tool that offers me much more without me having to write DB-manipulation code, for instance, syncing/converting with the address book on my OS that might be in a different format. On the other hand, if I edit a .odt file on a tablet, I can see a value in directly manipulating with the shell, as that file is something that I create and I want to access and move around.
But only a subset of the things that I want to backup are document files that I created. If I backup the settings of my phone, I wouldn't even want to know HOW they are stored. And assuming I found out, I don't want to be bothered to thinking if direct file copying is the correct way to restore it on a newer/older version of the operating system. This is a level of detail that is beyond what I (personally) want to know about a smartphone.
So, to rephrase, does the shell on a smartphone empower you to do things that you couldn't reasonably expect to be implemented as consumer-level features?
Moreover, I would add that file-based manipulation in my opinion is useful when the single files do expose some value. If I need to backup a sqlite DB with my contacts with rsync, I might as well use a high-level tool that offers me much more without me having to write DB-manipulation code, for instance, syncing/converting with the address book on my OS that might be in a different format. On the other hand, if I edit a .odt file on a tablet, I can see a value in directly manipulating with the shell, as that file is something that I create and I want to access and move around.
But only a subset of the things that I want to backup are document files that I created. If I backup the settings of my phone, I wouldn't even want to know HOW they are stored. And assuming I found out, I don't want to be bothered to thinking if direct file copying is the correct way to restore it on a newer/older version of the operating system. This is a level of detail that is beyond what I (personally) want to know about a smartphone.
So, to rephrase, does the shell on a smartphone empower you to do things that you couldn't reasonably expect to be implemented as consumer-level features?
> The problem here is that UNIX tools and shell are not a solution for a generic consumer device.
Not for every person or every problem, but people like pessimizer seem to have found use for UNIX tools. N900 has built in functionality for backups, too, but like the iPhone backup system I guess it's not as flexible as rsync in combination with various other system tools.
> Moreover, I would add that file-based manipulation in my opinion is useful when the single files do expose some value.
Agreed.
> If I backup the settings of my phone, I wouldn't even want to know HOW they are stored.
To each their own, but you have to agree that its reasonable for someone else not to share that opinion.
> So, to rephrase, does the shell on a smartphone empower you to do things that you couldn't reasonably expect to be implemented as consumer-level features?
If it enables me to run the specific software I prefer to use and otherwise couldn't, it's by definition empowering me to do so. The answer is obvious. It's not compensation for a missing feature of the platform; it _is_ a feature of the platform, whether non-power users will make use of it or not
Not for every person or every problem, but people like pessimizer seem to have found use for UNIX tools. N900 has built in functionality for backups, too, but like the iPhone backup system I guess it's not as flexible as rsync in combination with various other system tools.
> Moreover, I would add that file-based manipulation in my opinion is useful when the single files do expose some value.
Agreed.
> If I backup the settings of my phone, I wouldn't even want to know HOW they are stored.
To each their own, but you have to agree that its reasonable for someone else not to share that opinion.
> So, to rephrase, does the shell on a smartphone empower you to do things that you couldn't reasonably expect to be implemented as consumer-level features?
If it enables me to run the specific software I prefer to use and otherwise couldn't, it's by definition empowering me to do so. The answer is obvious. It's not compensation for a missing feature of the platform; it _is_ a feature of the platform, whether non-power users will make use of it or not
> N900 has built in functionality for backups, too, but like the iPhone backup system I guess it's not as flexible as rsync in combination with various other system tools.
It would greatly help if he/she described how it is more flexible. I fail to see it, and I regularly do server backups with rsync, so I think I know the tool. On the contrary, my own technical evaluation is that it is a lot less convenient that the native, builtin backup solution, especially because it requires far more work to achieve the same, and it is going to be risky on the face of subsequent OS updates (that might invalidate your backups without you even realizing, unless you have another phone to regularly test your in-house backup/restore solution).
> If it enables me to run the specific software I prefer to use and otherwise couldn't, it's by definition empowering me to do so. The answer is obvious. It's not compensation for a missing feature of the platform; it _is_ a feature of the platform, whether non-power users will make use of it or not
If I understand correctly, you're saying that "having SSH access" is a feature, irrespective of how it can be used. I think everybody would agree with this :)
Instead, what I'm trying to find out is what SSH access enables me to do, with a specific focus on solving problems or implementing features that are not reasonably supposed to be part of the consumer-level features offered by the platform.
You can answer "nothing, but I still like it because I do", of course. I'm not trying to change anyone's behavior. But after 2 years of (not) using SSH access to my smartphone, I'm curious of how other people use it and why.
It would greatly help if he/she described how it is more flexible. I fail to see it, and I regularly do server backups with rsync, so I think I know the tool. On the contrary, my own technical evaluation is that it is a lot less convenient that the native, builtin backup solution, especially because it requires far more work to achieve the same, and it is going to be risky on the face of subsequent OS updates (that might invalidate your backups without you even realizing, unless you have another phone to regularly test your in-house backup/restore solution).
> If it enables me to run the specific software I prefer to use and otherwise couldn't, it's by definition empowering me to do so. The answer is obvious. It's not compensation for a missing feature of the platform; it _is_ a feature of the platform, whether non-power users will make use of it or not
If I understand correctly, you're saying that "having SSH access" is a feature, irrespective of how it can be used. I think everybody would agree with this :)
Instead, what I'm trying to find out is what SSH access enables me to do, with a specific focus on solving problems or implementing features that are not reasonably supposed to be part of the consumer-level features offered by the platform.
You can answer "nothing, but I still like it because I do", of course. I'm not trying to change anyone's behavior. But after 2 years of (not) using SSH access to my smartphone, I'm curious of how other people use it and why.
First of all, I can't answer for pessimizer, but I'll list some potential advantages of using rsync. Second of all, I really need to point out that there's a big difference between convenience and flexibility, so our technical evaluations don't really challenge eachother.
rsync might involve more work, but on the other hand you could have a cron scheduler trigger it at regular intervals, run by a script that only performs a backup under the right network connectivity conditions (eg. the phone is connected to your home or work WLAN). Perhaps you only want to back up part of the system, or maybe you want to back up some parts of it (say, /home) more frequently than others that are susceptible to big changes (/usr/bin?). Perhaps the only thing you really want to back up from your phone are your downloaded email attachements and browser downloads, while having your contacts managed by some cloud service. You've already listed the disadvantages of such a setup, and I agree, but the advantages need to be acknowledged as well. The stream-lined iOS approach might be as one size fits all as it gets, but there could still be cases where a user would reasonably want to handle it differently.
As for what use ssh for, you are being clear now. At first I thought you meant using an ssh client on the phone (in which case the answer would be the generic answer to "what would I use ssh for?"), but running an sshd on your phone could be useful as well. It's a quick and convenient way to move files to it -- think binaries, scripts, crontabs or runit services -- and a quick way of managing these files.
rsync might involve more work, but on the other hand you could have a cron scheduler trigger it at regular intervals, run by a script that only performs a backup under the right network connectivity conditions (eg. the phone is connected to your home or work WLAN). Perhaps you only want to back up part of the system, or maybe you want to back up some parts of it (say, /home) more frequently than others that are susceptible to big changes (/usr/bin?). Perhaps the only thing you really want to back up from your phone are your downloaded email attachements and browser downloads, while having your contacts managed by some cloud service. You've already listed the disadvantages of such a setup, and I agree, but the advantages need to be acknowledged as well. The stream-lined iOS approach might be as one size fits all as it gets, but there could still be cases where a user would reasonably want to handle it differently.
As for what use ssh for, you are being clear now. At first I thought you meant using an ssh client on the phone (in which case the answer would be the generic answer to "what would I use ssh for?"), but running an sshd on your phone could be useful as well. It's a quick and convenient way to move files to it -- think binaries, scripts, crontabs or runit services -- and a quick way of managing these files.
To restate the first reply to your comment - iOS is the device with the missing features, usually replacing them with often impenetrable, closed-source, in-house, single-vendor solutions.
A shell is not a compensation for half a dozen apps that almost replace a single command. In fact, quite the opposite.
Does iOS have a user-accessible file system yet?
A shell is not a compensation for half a dozen apps that almost replace a single command. In fact, quite the opposite.
Does iOS have a user-accessible file system yet?
iOS doesn't have a user-accessible file system because it's trying (as you might know) a bet to move to a paradigm where the filesystem is not exposed to the user. Not saying is correct or not, but it is a precise design choice.
Regardless, I had my iPhone jailbroken for 2 years, with full SSH root access and never used it, and I would have never used it to backup since there was a much more stable, officially tested and supported way to implement it; the least thing I wanted is to lose my data because I wanted to be smart and implemented an in-house untested solution.
This is why I'm genuinely curious whether the shell on a N900 empowers to do things that aren't reasonably found on a consumer-level feature.
Regardless, I had my iPhone jailbroken for 2 years, with full SSH root access and never used it, and I would have never used it to backup since there was a much more stable, officially tested and supported way to implement it; the least thing I wanted is to lose my data because I wanted to be smart and implemented an in-house untested solution.
This is why I'm genuinely curious whether the shell on a N900 empowers to do things that aren't reasonably found on a consumer-level feature.
I need to get my hands on one of these. I used the Maemo OS on the N900 for a couple of years and must say I loved it(having a hardware keyboard was a plus) I've got to say I love the community around it. Just about 40000users left on that particular system yet some of the best support I've ever seen. The community is incredible.
If this OS, and phone, can get that same sort of support and community around it(and I don't see why not seeing that they're based on the same cores built by the same teams) I see great things in the future. Like booting Ubuntu, Jolla and Mozilla from the same phone.
If this OS, and phone, can get that same sort of support and community around it(and I don't see why not seeing that they're based on the same cores built by the same teams) I see great things in the future. Like booting Ubuntu, Jolla and Mozilla from the same phone.
This may interest you then, if you haven't already seen it:
http://neo900.org/
http://neo900.org/
Wonder if I can send in broke N900 they upgrade it for me. I'll get in touch with them
I worked for an iOS developer in Finland this summer; it's an amazing but peculiar country. Some elements that might help make sense of the news:
- those numbers are only for DNA: it was the operator that I used, great service; it is a relevant operator on the market, but apparently not the best for international roaming or the countryside; Helsinki coverage makes it a preferred option for the savvy, but not the most senior crowd who travels abroad quite a bit;
- the tech scene is extremely tight-knight, sprung out of Nokia; most of those have close ties to some of Jollo developers and have internal information on the project;
- the country is not only fairly small, it includes SuperCell, Rovio and that’s the tip of the iceberg: dozen of thousands out of the 600k-1.3M people living in Helsinki or around develop for mobiles; most people openly describe how the country made a conscious, political, country-wide pivot from Nokia’s experience in sparse mobile code to iOS games and apps; half the people there seem to personally know game developers;
- iPhones 5C and 5S were not available early this summer and as you can imagine, this was a significant, professionally dire problem (on that note: Seriously, Apple!?); people flew and came back with fistfuls of the things up long after Finnish resellers suffered shortages; I believe that operator subsidies on the handsets are not significant (but I can’t say for sure: as a foreigner, I couldn’t hold a contract myself).
Because of that, I’m assuming that operator sales of smartphones are a biased sample; traffic data would be preferable for actual use. However, even that usage is skewed: most people have a mobile platform written in bold on their LinkedIn profile, or ask one who has before buying a handset. That they sold significantly is a great sign however: if the product wasn’t good, local buyers would have heard rumors before — and many people buying are actually considering developing for the thing.
- those numbers are only for DNA: it was the operator that I used, great service; it is a relevant operator on the market, but apparently not the best for international roaming or the countryside; Helsinki coverage makes it a preferred option for the savvy, but not the most senior crowd who travels abroad quite a bit;
- the tech scene is extremely tight-knight, sprung out of Nokia; most of those have close ties to some of Jollo developers and have internal information on the project;
- the country is not only fairly small, it includes SuperCell, Rovio and that’s the tip of the iceberg: dozen of thousands out of the 600k-1.3M people living in Helsinki or around develop for mobiles; most people openly describe how the country made a conscious, political, country-wide pivot from Nokia’s experience in sparse mobile code to iOS games and apps; half the people there seem to personally know game developers;
- iPhones 5C and 5S were not available early this summer and as you can imagine, this was a significant, professionally dire problem (on that note: Seriously, Apple!?); people flew and came back with fistfuls of the things up long after Finnish resellers suffered shortages; I believe that operator subsidies on the handsets are not significant (but I can’t say for sure: as a foreigner, I couldn’t hold a contract myself).
Because of that, I’m assuming that operator sales of smartphones are a biased sample; traffic data would be preferable for actual use. However, even that usage is skewed: most people have a mobile platform written in bold on their LinkedIn profile, or ask one who has before buying a handset. That they sold significantly is a great sign however: if the product wasn’t good, local buyers would have heard rumors before — and many people buying are actually considering developing for the thing.
> those numbers are only for DNA. Because of that, I’m assuming that operator sales of smartphones are a biased sample
Correct! As far as I know DNA is a tiny player compared to the biggest operators TeliaSonera and Elisa. So these numbers don't have the handsets sold by Jolla's store. And they don't have iPhones sold by other operators or retailers. I think DNA numbers cover less than 10% of handset sales in Finland.
Correct! As far as I know DNA is a tiny player compared to the biggest operators TeliaSonera and Elisa. So these numbers don't have the handsets sold by Jolla's store. And they don't have iPhones sold by other operators or retailers. I think DNA numbers cover less than 10% of handset sales in Finland.
I own a Jolla, I currenty use it as my primary phone and the real game-changer here may be that it actually runs Android apps without any signficant problems (so far :-)) even at this early stage (Angry Birds and Skype in my case, which seems me like quite challenging apps to emulate, Skype video calls, for example works).
For me this seems to invalidate the ecosystem concept underlying for example the Nokia switch to Microsoft and making Jolla and other smaller phone makers' chances of success a lot bigger.
For me this seems to invalidate the ecosystem concept underlying for example the Nokia switch to Microsoft and making Jolla and other smaller phone makers' chances of success a lot bigger.
Yeah, but why running Android apps is such a game changer? After all, most Android phones can run Android apps too...
Why would anyone want to have Jolla and not Android?
There's a significant value in being able to use a phone with a sense of freedom from being watched by a company like Google. To fully use an Android handset, you have to keep Google updated on your location, contacts, calendar, and email, and give them your credit card details. This information is much more sensitive because you are giving it to a company which can combine it with other sources of information.
The usefulness and game-changing property of the compatibility to me is that you can buy a phone from a small startup with its own operating system and UI and still have access to applications while you wait fot the number of phones to grow and for Skype et. al to port their stuff to the native environment. Without that you wouldn't necessary buy the phone and the conpany would have a much harder time to succeeed,
Also it is good to have a way to run more exotic apps that it does not make sense to port to a less mainstream environment.
I'm Finnish and has used Nokia Communicators since the 90s and my previous phones was an N9 and a N900 so the main attraction is the native environment as a continuation of Mameo/Meego and the company itself. Thankfully there is still some Finnish companies who seems to understand how to apply 'Management by perkele' :-)
Also it is good to have a way to run more exotic apps that it does not make sense to port to a less mainstream environment.
I'm Finnish and has used Nokia Communicators since the 90s and my previous phones was an N9 and a N900 so the main attraction is the native environment as a continuation of Mameo/Meego and the company itself. Thankfully there is still some Finnish companies who seems to understand how to apply 'Management by perkele' :-)
Perkele is a word that does not get used enough on HN :)
I suggest that most Android phones don't run Android apps without significant problems, since most Android phones are cheap devices with bad screens, low memory and slow processors. And most developers instead have the latest and greatest.
Most Android phones are not Samsung 4 or HTC one.
Most Android phones are not Samsung 4 or HTC one.
Considering I still own a lot of shares in a company that makes Android compatibility environments for non-Android platforms, I hope that's true. In general, I think the Jolla team has been pragmatic. They have not relied exclusively on any one approach to delivering mobile apps, and they have a native app environment in addition to their Android compatibility
There is a gold mine for Jolla here in Brazil:
* Big market
* Iphone is too expensive because its built outside of Brazil and have heavy taxes because of it
* Android doenst actually have a strong brand.. its good looking and the hardware is more cheap, so people buy because of the lack of options (actually to be fair, samsung is pretty good, as everybody knows) - People dont buy a phone because its a android like they do with Apple
Map for the gold mine:
* Find a good brazilian partner with good relations and well stablished in traditional industry
* Ask for money in development banks like BNDES to build a factory(or use some part of one already built) in Zona Franca de Manaus (with tax incentives) (it will be easy for a project like yours as long Jolla have well conected people here)
* Use the factory to export to other south american countries with tax incentives for exports
...
I think Brazil is a unique market to launch this things because of the unique environment you have here..
Once Jolla made a pitch and some hits here, they can start to launch in more saturated and sophisticated markets (read apple fanboysm here) like US and EU
Really, Jolla should be very serious about that possibility..
* Big market
* Iphone is too expensive because its built outside of Brazil and have heavy taxes because of it
* Android doenst actually have a strong brand.. its good looking and the hardware is more cheap, so people buy because of the lack of options (actually to be fair, samsung is pretty good, as everybody knows) - People dont buy a phone because its a android like they do with Apple
Map for the gold mine:
* Find a good brazilian partner with good relations and well stablished in traditional industry
* Ask for money in development banks like BNDES to build a factory(or use some part of one already built) in Zona Franca de Manaus (with tax incentives) (it will be easy for a project like yours as long Jolla have well conected people here)
* Use the factory to export to other south american countries with tax incentives for exports
...
I think Brazil is a unique market to launch this things because of the unique environment you have here..
Once Jolla made a pitch and some hits here, they can start to launch in more saturated and sophisticated markets (read apple fanboysm here) like US and EU
Really, Jolla should be very serious about that possibility..
Samsung, LG, Alcatel have factories in Brazil. Foxconn is building a factory in partnership with someone and will produce apple stuff here. Even microsoft and sony build things such as xbox and playstation here (more like assemble but still get incentives). Simply building a Jolla factory with BNDES support will not give them a foothold since everyone else is doing the same thing.
To succeed in the Brazilian market they need the following: * Cheap devices. The Jolla phone is more expensive than Android competition, even higher end devices such as Moto G. * Whatsapp support is a must in here. People will decide against a device if it doesnt have whatsapp client. * Agreement with some carrier to push it. * Localized stuff * Multi-sim support. Many Android devices have two or three (and even four) simcard slots so that people can use a simcard for each carrier and call everyone for free. There is a moto g with dual sim in here.
Right now, IIRC, Jolla has no multi-sim support, no carrier agreement, no cheap device. Being cheaper than iPhone is not enough, it needs to be cheaper than ~R$300 (close to USD 130) to succeed in here.
PS: I am working on this market right now. This are trends I've been experiencing here daily.
To succeed in the Brazilian market they need the following: * Cheap devices. The Jolla phone is more expensive than Android competition, even higher end devices such as Moto G. * Whatsapp support is a must in here. People will decide against a device if it doesnt have whatsapp client. * Agreement with some carrier to push it. * Localized stuff * Multi-sim support. Many Android devices have two or three (and even four) simcard slots so that people can use a simcard for each carrier and call everyone for free. There is a moto g with dual sim in here.
Right now, IIRC, Jolla has no multi-sim support, no carrier agreement, no cheap device. Being cheaper than iPhone is not enough, it needs to be cheaper than ~R$300 (close to USD 130) to succeed in here.
PS: I am working on this market right now. This are trends I've been experiencing here daily.
Did Apple completely stop Brazilian production?
http://www.macrumors.com/2012/02/24/apple-now-selling-brazil...
http://www.macrumors.com/2012/02/24/apple-now-selling-brazil...
This is great. A real alternative to surveillance tainted iOS and Android.
In addition to this, there's a new Firefox OS phone coming soon (I hope).
http://www.geeksphone.com/revolution/
In addition to this, there's a new Firefox OS phone coming soon (I hope).
http://www.geeksphone.com/revolution/
Yes, because clearly if a bunch of people start using Jolla or Firefox OS surveillance will magically stop happening on the shared public wireless networks we are all communicating over via an open and largely unencrypted internet connection.
Open source is nice, but it doesn't solve anything in terms of government or corporate spy groups snooping. The cat is out of the bag on that one and I don't think they're going to magically stop spending billion or trillions snooping anytime soon. Google/facebook/twitter/microsoft make billions off of spying on customer behavior and serving them ads. Governments have a vested interest in either citizen safety or maintaining power by trying to control the population.
In either case, there is just too much money and power for spying to ever go away or become less sophisticated.
Open source is nice, but it doesn't solve anything in terms of government or corporate spy groups snooping. The cat is out of the bag on that one and I don't think they're going to magically stop spending billion or trillions snooping anytime soon. Google/facebook/twitter/microsoft make billions off of spying on customer behavior and serving them ads. Governments have a vested interest in either citizen safety or maintaining power by trying to control the population.
In either case, there is just too much money and power for spying to ever go away or become less sophisticated.
>Yes, because clearly if a bunch of people start using Jolla or Firefox OS surveillance will magically stop happening on the shared public wireless networks we are all communicating over via an open and largely unencrypted internet connection.
That's internet and wireless surveillance. That's a lot less than the direct access to the phone that closed source OSs may provide.
That's internet and wireless surveillance. That's a lot less than the direct access to the phone that closed source OSs may provide.
> via an open and largely unencrypted internet connection.
Doesn't have to be that way, you know. You can use VPN, SSH, OTR or any other way to secure your communications, if the endpoints can be trusted at least to some extent.
Doesn't have to be that way, you know. You can use VPN, SSH, OTR or any other way to secure your communications, if the endpoints can be trusted at least to some extent.
Isn't the Jolla UI and parts of the userland closed-source? If that's the case how can one be use the OS is free from "surveillance"? This also doesn't take in account the privacy issues about what the baseband firmware contains.
Just curious, why isn't BlackBerry a real alternative to surveillance tainted iOS and Android phones?
At that point, I think that Blackberry is suffering a lot from their now disastrous brand image. It's not that Blackberry isn't a real alternative. It's that most people aren't even considering Blackberry at all anymore.
The feeling I get is that it occurs to very few people that Blackberry could even be an alternative. I doubt that many people would notice if they went under tomorrow.
The feeling I get is that it occurs to very few people that Blackberry could even be an alternative. I doubt that many people would notice if they went under tomorrow.
Blackberry used to provide hardware-based PIN messaging services. Once the world decided that software was king and that apps trump security it no longer made sense to invest in Blackberry.
Ergo, Blackberry is not a real alternative not from a security perspective but from a usability perspective.
I'm not saying this is correct, only trying to codify the public perception for your benefit.
Ergo, Blackberry is not a real alternative not from a security perspective but from a usability perspective.
I'm not saying this is correct, only trying to codify the public perception for your benefit.
I think their issues with the United Arab Emirates, India and Saudia Arabia regarding BlackBerry either moving servers or handing over encryption keys, tainted their reputation in that regard.
The whole thing got very confusing, the customers data might still be safe and secure, but it's not really an area where doubt and stories about the opposite are easily brushed over.
The whole thing got very confusing, the customers data might still be safe and secure, but it's not really an area where doubt and stories about the opposite are easily brushed over.
As others have pointed out, Jolla is the "home team" in Finland. Jolla is made of up people formerly at Nokia. Wider success depends on shipping a great product, but it also depends on how much people who liked the Nokia Harmattan and Meego OS smartphones know that Jolla is the successor to those products. Before they were thrown off the "burning platform" they outsold Windows Phone-based products.
Indeed, the Finnish market is pretty skewed, as far as I know, it's the only market where Windows Mobile is @ +30% market share for smart phones (because of Nokia loyalty).
It skews the app market too, probably no one outside of Finland cares about Windows Mobile but in Finland supporting it is a big deal.
It skews the app market too, probably no one outside of Finland cares about Windows Mobile but in Finland supporting it is a big deal.
There are some other markets where Windows Phone is in 2nd place (ahead of iPhones) and so supporting it is indeed a big deal. Italy, some eastern European countries, Southeast Asian countries, South America, possibly Russia...
Alternate, equally accurate headline:
'Jolla fails to outsell 3 Samsung phones, Nokia phone'
'Jolla fails to outsell 3 Samsung phones, Nokia phone'
Wow. When shall we see it offered at O2 and 3, and Orange and T-Mobile in the UK? Just to gain some more stats, nothing else. Power is in numbers, right?
Jolla are working on it ;) Even Apple started with one phone on one carrier to refine the product and process and only then did they start to scale.
Can already get it.
You buy it on jolla.com and stuff a SIM from one of the above in it.
You buy it on jolla.com and stuff a SIM from one of the above in it.
All these new OSs to try out and develop for ... has anyone attempted a boot manager for them? I'd love to have a single device rocking all the open-source efforts - Android, FxOS, Tizen, Jolla, Ubuntu. I believe at least some of these have been able to run on various Nexus devices, so should be possible?
I realise multi-booting isn't practical for end-users, but very useful for developers and tech evaluators while the Cambrian explosion of mobile OSs plays out.
I realise multi-booting isn't practical for end-users, but very useful for developers and tech evaluators while the Cambrian explosion of mobile OSs plays out.
There's MultiROM for the Nexus 7: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2011403
I see, thanks. What I'm really looking for is a single image or script that would automatically flash the device with a bundle of pre-installed OSs. Probably doesn't exist yet.
Once you have installed the modified recovery and bootloader, there's a recovery option where you can queue up as many images as you like. There's also a app to make things even easier: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tassadar.m...
Considering all of Finland is about the same population size as the metro area I live in (Metro Atlanta), I think this is irrelevant. Also considering Jolla's home is Finland I am sure they enjoy a pricing advantage or a sense of pride buying something made in Finland.
That being said I would really like to see an outsider come into the US and gain some marketshare.
That being said I would really like to see an outsider come into the US and gain some marketshare.
Why do people say this is irrelevant? Clearly the small population needs to be taken into consideration, but it is still an interesting point, and could be a sign of things to come or not. Since we all like to be prepared, I think it is something of interest to us here.
Pricing advantage no. Pride advantage, of course.
I would argue success in a home market may be a necessary but insufficient precondition to "relevance" (however one defines that). They've cleared that first hurdle. And that is to be applauded, I feel.
I would argue success in a home market may be a necessary but insufficient precondition to "relevance" (however one defines that). They've cleared that first hurdle. And that is to be applauded, I feel.
I wasnt sure about the pricing advantage, some would say we get one for iPhones in the US but others say we are paying for it by getting locked into 2 year contracts.
This is grossly misleading - it outsold the iPhone on the one operator that carries it. Not in the entire Finnish market.
Well, that was indeed mentioned in the article. It outsold the iphone in the market where it was offered... it is up to you to decide what would happen at other carriers.
For sure, but there is a good likelihood that that one carrier absorbed the demand that would otherwise be spread across all four, in which case it wouldn't even have ranked.
I preordered and recently paid, but I'm still stuck in the shipping queue. Seems a bit silly to make the preorder customers wait longer, but it's probably to get as many devices out in stores as possible.
It is worth counting total sales by platform as well as by handset.
It's hard to find info but isn't the UI and other parts closed source? If that is the case Firefox OS and Ubuntu mobile OS look more promising.
I've done ops consulting at about half of the major handset mfgrs.
What's missing from many of the mobile open source phone projects is ruthless project management. Without getting to what customers need working most , first instead of whatever I, dev, feel like can hold back any development timeline.
Firefox OS has hope because the folks at Mozilla are sharp. I'm sure others do, I just don't have first-hand knowledge of them to make any claims. Also, as far as NSA backdoors, Mozilla has the least likelihood of enabling dragnet surveillance. However it could be potentially leaned-on by Google, their largest revenue source, but a viable, popular handset maybe a way to negate that.
What's missing from many of the mobile open source phone projects is ruthless project management. Without getting to what customers need working most , first instead of whatever I, dev, feel like can hold back any development timeline.
Firefox OS has hope because the folks at Mozilla are sharp. I'm sure others do, I just don't have first-hand knowledge of them to make any claims. Also, as far as NSA backdoors, Mozilla has the least likelihood of enabling dragnet surveillance. However it could be potentially leaned-on by Google, their largest revenue source, but a viable, popular handset maybe a way to negate that.
Jolla is derived from Mer (merproject.org), so it is certain all the Mer parts are open.
-it is Jolla's home market of Finland
-Finland is a small market where slight changes in absolute sales volume can show significant changes
-Jolla is satisfying pent-up demand for their phone
-it is on one carrier in Finland (the only one where Jolla is offered)
-iPhone aggregate demand is split into 2 whereas there is only 1 Jolla model
But hey, a win is a win...and it is certainly better than, say, failing to outsell the iPhone on this one carrier in one country
And the Jolla also outsold high-end Nokias (only the low-end Lumia 520 outsold the Jolla)