Bay Area Startups Find Low-Cost Outposts in Arizona(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Bay Area Startups Find Low-Cost Outposts in Arizona
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/22/business/economy/bay-area-start-ups-find-low-cost-outposts-in-arizona.html
89 comments
Phoenix is actually several hours from the border. We host refugee centers all over the city and refugees from many countries settle all over Phoenix. We have a large Middle Eastern population, as well as larger groups from Somalia, Sudan, Bosnia, and Serbia as some examples. We have a large Hispanic and Native American population. There are many people of different ethnicities living in the Central Downtown Phoenix area where startups are locating.
I've heard conservatives say similar things about the Bay Area, where they might be assaulted for supporting Trump and would probably be arrested for owning a gun.
And to focus on something that will affect everyone, not partisan fears, in Phoenix mere mortals can actually afford to buy a home.
And to focus on something that will affect everyone, not partisan fears, in Phoenix mere mortals can actually afford to buy a home.
Your "conservative fears" are not really based in reality though. Border patrol over-reach and Sheriff Joe's corruption are real things.
Also, being wrongly convicted of a crime doesn't "affect everyone" but I would argue that doesn't mean we should ignore it.
Also, being wrongly convicted of a crime doesn't "affect everyone" but I would argue that doesn't mean we should ignore it.
Assaults against Trump supporters aren't real things in the Bay Area?
http://www.eastbaytimes.com/breaking-news/ci_29976112/trump-...
They're rare, as is being wrongly convicted (which can happen anywhere).
But what really bothers conservatives is the idea that the police allowed it to happen.
> Unless a victim's life was in peril or the violence was "spiraling out of control," he said, officers held back to avoid inciting more violence and having the crowd turn on officers.
http://www.eastbaytimes.com/breaking-news/ci_29976112/trump-...
They're rare, as is being wrongly convicted (which can happen anywhere).
But what really bothers conservatives is the idea that the police allowed it to happen.
> Unless a victim's life was in peril or the violence was "spiraling out of control," he said, officers held back to avoid inciting more violence and having the crowd turn on officers.
Conservative fears are extremely true. People here, even educated people buy into the hysteria and go completely insane if someone has Trump gear on. It is worse much than the overblown situation in Arizona.
You must not have lived in either places to really know...
You must not have lived in either places to really know...
I can choose to voice my opinion for Trump (really, it's possible). I cannot choose to be brown, or not.
I'd be interested to see the intersection of quality software engineers and Trump supporters. My guess is near zero.
Really, only Hillary voters can be quality engineers? Because at this point it's Hill vs. Don, and I have a feeling a great portion of us will not be voting for Hill in 2016.
Yeah because only Hillary supporters are intelligent, duh. I'm not sure why that comment hasn't been downvoted into oblivion yet for being WAAAAAY off topic.
After Eich, most stay in the closet.
Just like the black support?
This is grossly out of proportion with reality. I've lived in Arizona my entire life with a diverse group of friends and colleagues. Practically no one, except for those that are illegal, worry about this.
Hardly, I lived in AZ for a while and it's a very legitimate fear. Minorities (not just those who are racially profiled as illegal immigrants) routinely are asked by officers to present identification at fucking barnes and nobles of all places. Source, friends, family, and observation.
--Towns aside from phoenix
--Towns aside from phoenix
Isn't this just a "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" rebuttal?
It sounded like "if you aren't breaking the law, you have nothing to fear".
I'm not saying that's true, or not. I don't know.
How many people have been incorrectly detained or deported by Arpaio?
I'm not saying that's true, or not. I don't know.
How many people have been incorrectly detained or deported by Arpaio?
I'd say that dealing with Arpaio and worrying about treatment as a minority are not necessarily intertwined issues. Arpaio's office isn't the only law enforcement outfit operating in the area. He's just at the county-level. You still have city- and state-level (?)[1] law enforcement plus border patrol.
[1] I'm not specifically sure how AZ works this -- e.g. California has "highway patrol" but Michigan has "state police".
[1] I'm not specifically sure how AZ works this -- e.g. California has "highway patrol" but Michigan has "state police".
That probably has more to do with location than politics.
I've seen more Border Patrol in San Diego than in Phoenix.
And Phoenix is not within 100 miles of the border, while San Francisco is (the border includes the oceans), so Phoenix may actually have a theoretical advantage there.
https://www.aclu.org/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
I've seen more Border Patrol in San Diego than in Phoenix.
And Phoenix is not within 100 miles of the border, while San Francisco is (the border includes the oceans), so Phoenix may actually have a theoretical advantage there.
https://www.aclu.org/constitution-100-mile-border-zone
Downtown/Central Phoenix is one of the most diverse cities I have encountered. We have many large refugee communities (I think due to the ease of inclusion, Phoenix being a city of transplants), a very large Hispanic community, and people that move here from literally every part of the country. Central Phoenix, again, is a very unique place compared to the mostly very small towns in the rest of the state. It is similar to how any large urban center is much more diverse than some of the smaller communities a few hours away.
I wouldn't say it's diverse, it's like the Midwest where's there's only black or white, in Phoenix it's just Hispanic or white ethnicities. I think LA and SF are much, much more diverse.
LA is over 13 million, and the second largest metro area in the US. Even SF is a larger metro than Phoenix, and both LA and SF are coastal port cities. It makes sense that they should have more diverse populations, especially LA.
That's almost like comparing any city to NYC.
I still believe culturally Phoenix is more diverse than the Midwest, due to the fact that it is a "new" city - the majority of development happened after 1970. Also, it is a city of very recent transplants. This encourages innovation because our city is so new we are not yet steeped in tradition or run by "old money families".
That's almost like comparing any city to NYC.
I still believe culturally Phoenix is more diverse than the Midwest, due to the fact that it is a "new" city - the majority of development happened after 1970. Also, it is a city of very recent transplants. This encourages innovation because our city is so new we are not yet steeped in tradition or run by "old money families".
Yes, and CA schools will force our sons to wear dresses and then die of measles from some anti-vaxxer's kids. The media loves to inflate stereotypes, doesn't it?
Off-topic, but in a similar vein of things that might be unexpected to someone from the Bay Area. Quote from the article: "along with some local touches, like a “No Weapons” sign to remind employees that open-carry laws do not extend onto company property."
I generally avoid travelling to Arizona because I'm likely to be racially profiled and I don't feel like carrying my proof of residency around with me at all times. I've had plenty enough of that in my life already and don't feel the need to reward a state that seems to actively encourage it with my tax dollars.
This is not true at all. This is a false, hysterical fear, I assure you Arizona is safe for everyone
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This is not the experience for AZ residents. Check it out and you'll find a welcoming and supportive community.
I have lived in the mountains, about a two hour drive north of Phoenix, for 18 years. I love it here. My wife and I used to live near the beach in San Diego and the overcrowding and traffic made us want to leave. There is a lot to be said for low cost of living and beautiful and low population areas of the country. Travel is easy enough since I take a shuttle to the airport, I can work in transit.
We lived in Mountain View in 2013 when I consulted at Google, and I admit that was fun living there for a while, but life is very good in inexpensive low population areas. BTW, the mountains in Central Arizona are significantly cooler than Phoenix and we get a little snow in the winter which is fun.
We lived in Mountain View in 2013 when I consulted at Google, and I admit that was fun living there for a while, but life is very good in inexpensive low population areas. BTW, the mountains in Central Arizona are significantly cooler than Phoenix and we get a little snow in the winter which is fun.
I live in Prescott. The weather is fantastic, all four seasons. Weatherunderground zip 86301 for the next week :-) I've been here 22 years. The outdoors activities are world class: hiking, mt and road cycling. I live in-town and Federal wilderness is literally 5 miles away.
My wife and I are both post-graduate STEM evacuees from the BA (Mt. View, 2nd and Townsend in SF, Santa Clara). We miss a lot about the BA, but as mentioned in the article, once you have a kid, two 1 hr commutes, possibly in opposite directions, are a non-starter. The thing we miss most about the BA are the people associated things because... the retrograde politics and essentially fascist outlook of the politically powerful has become suffocating. It is quite common to be in a restaurant and have some ragged beat down old white fellow packing a large gun. I have a youngish couple who walk an infant in a stroller by my house in the evening and the otherwise normal looking man-boy carries a giant pistol. I had words with the typical sort in Trader Joes because he felt he needed to pack a gun while shopping for groceries. Prescott has essentially no crime, nor much in the way of minorities, for that matter. It's not about safety.
This never happened 10 years ago, and earlier. Something happened around 2008, and things have been going downhill ever since.
My wife and I are both post-graduate STEM evacuees from the BA (Mt. View, 2nd and Townsend in SF, Santa Clara). We miss a lot about the BA, but as mentioned in the article, once you have a kid, two 1 hr commutes, possibly in opposite directions, are a non-starter. The thing we miss most about the BA are the people associated things because... the retrograde politics and essentially fascist outlook of the politically powerful has become suffocating. It is quite common to be in a restaurant and have some ragged beat down old white fellow packing a large gun. I have a youngish couple who walk an infant in a stroller by my house in the evening and the otherwise normal looking man-boy carries a giant pistol. I had words with the typical sort in Trader Joes because he felt he needed to pack a gun while shopping for groceries. Prescott has essentially no crime, nor much in the way of minorities, for that matter. It's not about safety.
This never happened 10 years ago, and earlier. Something happened around 2008, and things have been going downhill ever since.
Prescott looks pretty cool, but seems fairly expensive and without much of a local tech scene. Looks a bit like here in Bend in some ways, actually, although Bend is significantly bigger at this point and is developing something of a tech ecosystem, with a new university, some VC's, and some established companies.
I live in Flagstaff, and while going to Prescott for In-n-Out is nice, I have a hard time imagining living there vs. Flagstaff for the exact reasons you mention.
We looked very closely at moving from Austin to Flagstaff 3 years ago when my wife had a job offer there. Although we absolutely love the locale we concluded that there were very few job opportunities in the area, particularly in tech, and it wouldn't be a great move from an economic standpoint.
What's your view of the Flag area economy?
What's your view of the Flag area economy?
It's a lot like many places without significant industry and nice quality of life. Less expensive than more "hot spot" areas, but wages are out of whack with the cost of living for most people. You definitely pay a premium relative to general wages to live in a nice place like this.
That said, there are many people who do quite well for themselves here, and they seem to love it. But it's not really a place where you can advance quickly by moving between companies. Most employees here seem to be lifers.
In terms of tech, there's not much to report. I got my current job through a personal recommendation, but was preparing to move away right before that happened. There are a couple of smaller tech companies, but otherwise developers pretty much work for the university, the hospital, W.L. Gore, Deckers Outdoor, or they work remotely (last year I met a principal architect from Blackboard who apparently lives here and works remotely for them). There are no meetups that I know of, and almost all of the jobs are .NET/JVM enterprise-y integrations and IT stuff. I'm sure there are little pockets that I'm not aware of, but there's only like 70k people who live here anyway.
So, uh, I guess my view of the economy is rather dim :). But that's not why one moves to this area -- it's the urban trail system, the backyard national forest, the easy access to the entire southwest, the low crime rates, the fresh air, the friendly people, the liberal mountain town vibe, the microbreweries, etc.
That said, there are many people who do quite well for themselves here, and they seem to love it. But it's not really a place where you can advance quickly by moving between companies. Most employees here seem to be lifers.
In terms of tech, there's not much to report. I got my current job through a personal recommendation, but was preparing to move away right before that happened. There are a couple of smaller tech companies, but otherwise developers pretty much work for the university, the hospital, W.L. Gore, Deckers Outdoor, or they work remotely (last year I met a principal architect from Blackboard who apparently lives here and works remotely for them). There are no meetups that I know of, and almost all of the jobs are .NET/JVM enterprise-y integrations and IT stuff. I'm sure there are little pockets that I'm not aware of, but there's only like 70k people who live here anyway.
So, uh, I guess my view of the economy is rather dim :). But that's not why one moves to this area -- it's the urban trail system, the backyard national forest, the easy access to the entire southwest, the low crime rates, the fresh air, the friendly people, the liberal mountain town vibe, the microbreweries, etc.
I too live a couple hours north of Phoenix at the moment, and I think it's a real shame that Phoenix is the part of the state getting this Bay Area outflow -- good entry/mid level jobs are hard to find in northern AZ, and you're right that it's a much nicer place to live than Phoenix. I would much rather move to SF than to Scottsdale, even with the discounted housing.
Isn't it really hot and sunny ?
Flagstaff is rather pleasant. Its elevation is 6900 feet.
- Climate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagstaff,_Arizona#Climate
- Visual glance at vegetation: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Flagstaf...
Further south, Prescott, at 5400 feet:
- Climate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott,_Arizona#Climate
- Visual glance at vegetation: http://image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-photo-downtown-prescot...
versus, Phoenix, at 1100 feet
- Climate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix,_Arizona#Climate
- Visual glance at vegetation: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/PhoenixD... (notice that the trees are all planted, as there are none on the mountains, and absent from less-prosperous residential areas)
- Climate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagstaff,_Arizona#Climate
- Visual glance at vegetation: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/Flagstaf...
Further south, Prescott, at 5400 feet:
- Climate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott,_Arizona#Climate
- Visual glance at vegetation: http://image.shutterstock.com/z/stock-photo-downtown-prescot...
versus, Phoenix, at 1100 feet
- Climate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix,_Arizona#Climate
- Visual glance at vegetation: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/PhoenixD... (notice that the trees are all planted, as there are none on the mountains, and absent from less-prosperous residential areas)
Flagstaff and Prescott are quite pleasant from extensive personal experience, but unfortunately they're not where the formerly-Bay Area jobs are flowing.
Yes. I watch fairly closely and nowadays there's basically nothing. When I moved here there was actually quite a lot of interesting stuff going on. But it slowly eroded away.
The Verde Valley area gets hot in the summer, but still ~20 degrees F cooler than the Phoenix area. About 2.5-3 hours north of Phoenix (north of the Mogollon rim, on Colorado plateau), our hot summer days are in the low 80s, and we regularly have several feet of snow in winter.
Phoenix Startup Founder here. Central Phoenix is one of the best kept secrets in America - but after articles like this one the secret needs to get out. Central/downtown Phoenix, where many tech startups are located, allows a lifestyle and work environment that is unparalleled anywhere else in the country.
Cutting edge/super cheap hacker space incubator wet/dry labs- http://www.ceigateway.com, http://www.seedspot.com, http://www.cohoots.com
Great coffee/art/music/community- http://www.luxcoffee.com, http://www.artlinkphoenix.com, http://www.rooseveltrow.org, http://www.valleybarphx.com, http://www.crescentphx.com
Gorgeous, walk-able, affordable historic districts- http://www.willohistoricdistrict.com, http://www.windsorsquarephoenix.com, http://www.rooseveltneighborhood.org
July and August are the only months with truly hot weather, but San Francisco is a 90 minute flight away, and its a quick weekend trip to San Diego and LA, and a day trip to Flagstaff where its 30 degrees cooler. June and September bring cooler pleasant mornings and evenings, you are generally in your office midday anyway. October until May is truly gorgeous, the best weather in the country.
Central Phoenix is one of the most liberal, inclusive, and open minded places in the country. Many from Phoenix are from someplace else originally so there is less of a nepotistic, "who you know" culture here than the Coasts. People here are extremely independent and very friendly.
Comparing urban Central Phoenix, where most startups are located, to to other towns an hour or more away in more suburban/rural areas is similar to comparing Palo Alto to a small agricultural town outside Silicon Valley. Its apples and oranges.
Cutting edge/super cheap hacker space incubator wet/dry labs- http://www.ceigateway.com, http://www.seedspot.com, http://www.cohoots.com
Great coffee/art/music/community- http://www.luxcoffee.com, http://www.artlinkphoenix.com, http://www.rooseveltrow.org, http://www.valleybarphx.com, http://www.crescentphx.com
Gorgeous, walk-able, affordable historic districts- http://www.willohistoricdistrict.com, http://www.windsorsquarephoenix.com, http://www.rooseveltneighborhood.org
July and August are the only months with truly hot weather, but San Francisco is a 90 minute flight away, and its a quick weekend trip to San Diego and LA, and a day trip to Flagstaff where its 30 degrees cooler. June and September bring cooler pleasant mornings and evenings, you are generally in your office midday anyway. October until May is truly gorgeous, the best weather in the country.
Central Phoenix is one of the most liberal, inclusive, and open minded places in the country. Many from Phoenix are from someplace else originally so there is less of a nepotistic, "who you know" culture here than the Coasts. People here are extremely independent and very friendly.
Comparing urban Central Phoenix, where most startups are located, to to other towns an hour or more away in more suburban/rural areas is similar to comparing Palo Alto to a small agricultural town outside Silicon Valley. Its apples and oranges.
^ What she said. There are also the annual events like Barrett-Jackson and the Open, as well. On the tech side, we have an abundance of datacenters, and there is some cutting edge engineering work being done in the Node.js and Docker ecosystems, too.
This reminds me of Tuft & Needle's pitch to set up shop in Phoenix rather than in Silicon Valley.[1]
[1] https://m.tuftandneedle.com/if-you-re-building-a-startup-you...
[1] https://m.tuftandneedle.com/if-you-re-building-a-startup-you...
We're excited to be building our startup here in Phoenix. 8 months out of the year, the weather is fantastic. Burn rate is much lower than it would be in/around SF, our money goes much farther here. Great large public research institutions at ASU/UA is a great outlet for finding talent.
We think Phoenix is a great place to start a company, and we're dedicated to building our business here. Here's why: https://blog.somaticlabs.io/scrappy-startup-turn-up-the-heat...
I hear a lot of talk about regressive politics in AZ.
What I see on the ground here is that people from all economic backgrounds can afford to work, live, and have a family. What I see up there is a set of NIMBY policies that restrict prosperity to the 1%.
PHX adopts policies welcoming middle-skill, middle-income people and families; fauxgressives in SF Bay give them the middle finger.
What I see on the ground here is that people from all economic backgrounds can afford to work, live, and have a family. What I see up there is a set of NIMBY policies that restrict prosperity to the 1%.
PHX adopts policies welcoming middle-skill, middle-income people and families; fauxgressives in SF Bay give them the middle finger.
While yes, PHX metro is a more affordable option, no brand ever wants to be known as the low cost leader (we know this is never sustainable). Instead, my viewpoint as CEO of a young healthcare company is that PHX is ideal for us because of the industry experts in our space (aging) such as Banner Alzheimer's Institute and Barrow Neuro, access to our customer base (50+) and a theme of generosity of support for all startup founders. Then there's the development of new dev minds via our coding high schools, Galvanize, and UAT (as a few examples). Not to mention that this is the most livable place I've ever been.
> no brand ever wants to be known as the low cost leader (we know this is never sustainable)
I think Walmart would disagree with you on both.
I think Walmart would disagree with you on both.
I lived 3 years in Phoenix. Absolutely hated it. Won't ever move there and I actually avoid it for vacations as well. The weather is atrocious. The weather is only bad for 3 months is a nice sales pitch. But let me tell you that it gets to 100 early to mid May and lasts till September. So that's 5 months. Also, April and October remains hot during the day. In addition, as the article points out, most jobs are entry level jobs with low pay. Phoenix has very few fortune 500 companies, so if you are looking for strategic and interesting roles and moving up the corporate ladder, it is non existent. And the pay is laughable. Other things I didn't like - in your face politics, extremd bro culture, few places to visit, no interesting startup roles etc etc, but you get the point
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This makes me sad we don't do high density + low cost in the US.
I always wonder what would have happened if the New York of the 1970s and 1980s turned out differently than it did
There are so many economical, livable cities in the West within a 2-4 hour flight of SFO or SJC. Seattle is already too expensive, and I find Phoenix quite unpleasant, but Portland, Eugene (go Ducks!), Corvallis (go Beavs!), Spokane/Pullman (go Cougs!), Boise, Reno are all civilized, attractive, and relatively economical places.
Seattle is cheaper than Portland at this point for being anywhere decent. Have friends in both and visit often, Portland has really jumped the shark and is very overrated. Also have a friend who just left Portland for San Diego because San Diego is now cheaper, and the weather isn't atrocious for 10 months.
The other places you mention are little college towns without any industry, could be appropriate for people in their early 20s who have their own job to bring. Spokane and Pullman are really cheap, but they're in the middle of nowhere. Reno is probably the best of the bunch, it's nice and has more of an economy, plus it's a relatively short drive back to civilization and San Francisco.
Some parts of Phoenix are really nice, as is Tucson, affordable, great weather, etc but the always-in-your-face abrasive politics of AZ can be off putting.
It's a bit further out, but I think the South will be major growth areas for tech. Highly affordable, friendly people, good weather for most of the year, great cities and culture, etc.
The other places you mention are little college towns without any industry, could be appropriate for people in their early 20s who have their own job to bring. Spokane and Pullman are really cheap, but they're in the middle of nowhere. Reno is probably the best of the bunch, it's nice and has more of an economy, plus it's a relatively short drive back to civilization and San Francisco.
Some parts of Phoenix are really nice, as is Tucson, affordable, great weather, etc but the always-in-your-face abrasive politics of AZ can be off putting.
It's a bit further out, but I think the South will be major growth areas for tech. Highly affordable, friendly people, good weather for most of the year, great cities and culture, etc.
My understanding is that Portland and Seattle have effectively the same cost of living thanks to the same boom in Cascadian urban real estate prices. Seattle is building, though, so it's possible that its costs will level off or at least grow more gradually.
Seattle partly has San Francisco's problem; it's so boxed-in by geography that most available land is far away and hard to reach. Portland can grow if they decide they want to.
San Francisco's problem is disfunctional NIMBY politics. With real estate prices there, they absolutely have room to build up.
Bend is really nice too, but getting expensive thanks to rapid growth and NIMBYism that mirrors that in the bay area.
Way better climate, IMO, than west of the Cascades.
Way better climate, IMO, than west of the Cascades.
Don't forget Salt Lake City. Tons of jobs, low cost of living, and a great outdoor community.
This is the first endorsement I've ever heard of Spokane. Has it changed in recent years?
I've visited Spokane for weekends several times in the past decade, usually following the Stanford women's basketball team to games with WSU or regional tournaments. So I haven't any experience in living there, but for a tourist, Spokane's not large but it is very pleasant with a walkable downtown core centered on Riverfront Park and of recent years, several very decent restaurants. The airport is small but efficient with lots of flights to SEA and PDX and a few direct flights to SFO. Good highway connections in all directions.
WSU is an intellectual asset, a major campus, but it is located a 90-minute freeway drive away in the smaller town of Pullman, which don't get much respect but isn't so bad either.
Edit: Under the heading of intellectual asset, I completely forgot Gonzaga U, which puts some brain-power right in Spokane.
WSU is an intellectual asset, a major campus, but it is located a 90-minute freeway drive away in the smaller town of Pullman, which don't get much respect but isn't so bad either.
Edit: Under the heading of intellectual asset, I completely forgot Gonzaga U, which puts some brain-power right in Spokane.
Pullman is out in the middle of a bunch of hills with wheat fields. Didn't strike me as having much besides that, whereas lots of other places mentioned have some pretty good outdoor activities.
No. Choose Boise or Bozeman, MT.
Is there any startup/hi-tech activity in Pullman besides Schweitzer?
Phoenix is a miserably hot place 7-8 months out of the year with cuckoo politics.
with cuckoo politics
Compared to what? San Francisco?
Compared to what? San Francisco?
I just looked and it's 86.9F at 10:35pm. Ugh.
Max temps for the 10 day forecast: 102, 100, 101, 103, 103, 98 (cool!), 101, 105, 107, 109 (!!!).
You better like being indoors all the time.
Max temps for the 10 day forecast: 102, 100, 101, 103, 103, 98 (cool!), 101, 105, 107, 109 (!!!).
You better like being indoors all the time.
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There is very little humidity here. I would say 88 degrees feel more like 72 degrees in a place that is not a desert environment.
Also, when you live in Phoenix, your body changes and you truly do acclimate to the heat. Anything under 65 feels like below freezing after a few years of living anywhere that is warm year round.
Also, when you live in Phoenix, your body changes and you truly do acclimate to the heat. Anything under 65 feels like below freezing after a few years of living anywhere that is warm year round.
Yeah summer gets hot, but 86.9 at night isn't really hot. I wouldn't open my windows, but if you are outside it feels good. Yesterday my wife and I were walking around (in the shade) after getting coffee, and commented how nice out it felt. Turns out it was over 100 out. Desert heat feels different than any other heat I've felt.
Night desert heat is a... unique experience that I too find enjoyable, but your air conditioner is running 24/7 to keep the house below 80. And in Phoenix, there is not enough night activities and/or legit nightlife to take advantage of pleasant nights as opposed to oppressive days.
Scottsdale or Tempe may be a different story, but then you're driving anyway. Or you do live within walking distance, but then you're no longer paying Phoenix rents.
Scottsdale or Tempe may be a different story, but then you're driving anyway. Or you do live within walking distance, but then you're no longer paying Phoenix rents.
I live in south Scottsdale, I work in Phoenix roughly a 7 minute drive or maybe 20 minutes by bike on the canals. I'm not as familiar with downtown as I am Arcadia/South Scottsdale/Tempe. But I do love getting downtown for a change of pace.
Scottsdale is really nice, Tempe is too but it's a younger crowd
[deleted]
I would disagree. Phoenix weather is fabulous 8 months out of the year, from October until May. It is why we have world class luxury resorts and a huge tourism base.
I agree that we have wacky politicians, but so does California! Our mayor Greg Stanton is pretty cool. He wants to encourage more investment in high tech industry.
I agree that we have wacky politicians, but so does California! Our mayor Greg Stanton is pretty cool. He wants to encourage more investment in high tech industry.
hot as a furnace and high crime rate
Phoenix has great weather 7-8 months of the year. The summer sucks, no doubt, but the rest of the year is amazing. No natural disasters to worry about, the worst we get is a bit of flash flooding in low lying areas and dust storms.
We also have great hiking, some of the best sunsets to be had, low cost of living.
We also have great hiking, some of the best sunsets to be had, low cost of living.
Boise is terrible, please don't move there.
Sincerely Yours, Idaho
Sincerely Yours, Idaho
Some highlighted quotes:
"This year, the company opened a downtown Phoenix office with sales and customer service jobs. “San Francisco is a terrible place for entry-level people,” Mr. Coburn said, because the infrastructure and housing are “failing.”"
"But as the latest exodus gathers steam, these outlying cities hope some of the higher-paying engineering jobs will start moving as well.
“We don’t want to be San Francisco’s back office — we need more creators here,”"
This pretty much summarizes the article. Phoenix isn't yet seeing a mass influx of developer jobs, but it's hoping that because some companies already have offices there for other positions, they'll be able to lure some high-end talent as well.
"This year, the company opened a downtown Phoenix office with sales and customer service jobs. “San Francisco is a terrible place for entry-level people,” Mr. Coburn said, because the infrastructure and housing are “failing.”"
"But as the latest exodus gathers steam, these outlying cities hope some of the higher-paying engineering jobs will start moving as well.
“We don’t want to be San Francisco’s back office — we need more creators here,”"
This pretty much summarizes the article. Phoenix isn't yet seeing a mass influx of developer jobs, but it's hoping that because some companies already have offices there for other positions, they'll be able to lure some high-end talent as well.
I lived in Phoenix area for almost 20 years.
As Andrew Ross writes, Phoenix is one of the least sustainable cities in the world (1).
Flowing from its corrupt politics and supply-side economics, I suspect AZ will go the same way (for some of the same reasons) as Sam Browback's Kansas / Bobby Jindal's Louisiana with huge structural revenue deficits.
(1) https://www.amazon.com/Bird-Fire-Lessons-Worlds-Sustainable/...
As Andrew Ross writes, Phoenix is one of the least sustainable cities in the world (1).
Flowing from its corrupt politics and supply-side economics, I suspect AZ will go the same way (for some of the same reasons) as Sam Browback's Kansas / Bobby Jindal's Louisiana with huge structural revenue deficits.
(1) https://www.amazon.com/Bird-Fire-Lessons-Worlds-Sustainable/...
One remarkable thing about Phoenix is that it's actually a very, very populous metro (currently the 12th most populous Metropolitan Statistical Area, just shy of the northern two-thirds of the Bay Area in 11th place [1]) in what's essentially the middle of nowhere -- and I'm not using this term as facetiously as you may suspect.
Phoenix has poor connectivity to just about everywhere else, is on a detour (I-10) from the straight-line Tucson to San Diego road (I-8) and is skipped by Union Pacific's main railroad line between Yuma and El Paso. It's bypassed completely by I-40, the successor to the famous Route 66 as the road from the midwest to the California coast, and by BNSF's southern transcon that follows that route closely. The road linking it with its nearest big neighbor, Las Vegas, despite recently having been expanded to a divided highway, is still vastly short of an interstate [2]. To get towards Flagstaff or Prescott (or towards Vegas) you have to climb out of the Gila basin.
And yet, despite these odds and the oppressive summer heat, the desert floor is covered in Phoenix' rectangular sprawl for nearly 50 consecutive miles. More so than perhaps any other large city, it creates it own demand just by the virtue of existing.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistic...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_11#History
Phoenix has poor connectivity to just about everywhere else, is on a detour (I-10) from the straight-line Tucson to San Diego road (I-8) and is skipped by Union Pacific's main railroad line between Yuma and El Paso. It's bypassed completely by I-40, the successor to the famous Route 66 as the road from the midwest to the California coast, and by BNSF's southern transcon that follows that route closely. The road linking it with its nearest big neighbor, Las Vegas, despite recently having been expanded to a divided highway, is still vastly short of an interstate [2]. To get towards Flagstaff or Prescott (or towards Vegas) you have to climb out of the Gila basin.
And yet, despite these odds and the oppressive summer heat, the desert floor is covered in Phoenix' rectangular sprawl for nearly 50 consecutive miles. More so than perhaps any other large city, it creates it own demand just by the virtue of existing.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistic...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_11#History
The sprawling Phoenix area reaches four rivers in Arizona: the Salt, Verde, Gila, and Agua Fria rivers.
And it's mostly flat land that's easy to build on and farm.
That geography made it valuable to the Hohokam people, and I've heard that their irrigation systems supported the largest population in the Southwest by 1300. [1]
It was a good place to build a city, until it outgrew its water supply.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohokam
And it's mostly flat land that's easy to build on and farm.
That geography made it valuable to the Hohokam people, and I've heard that their irrigation systems supported the largest population in the Southwest by 1300. [1]
It was a good place to build a city, until it outgrew its water supply.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hohokam
I-10 goes all the way across the country. I-8 goes from San Diego to I-10. So I would say I-8 is the detour.
How do you plan on wooing applicants that may fall victim to racial profiling because they are within 100 miles of the border, or that might end up in one of Sheriff Joe's tent camps just due to being accused of something (or looking at one of his deputies the wrong way).
Do you not think that this limits your talent pool because many people of different ethnicities might not want to take the risk of relocating to such a hostile environment for them?