MacBook Pro is a lie(theverge.com)

151 pointsby ktamiola10 anni fa237 comments

http://www.theverge.com/2016/11/7/13548052/the-macbook-pro-lie

244 comments

I shouldn't be surprised I guess, but I'm tired of seeing tech press make such ignorant articles re: tech.

> this year's Kaby Lake

You mean the processor which was announced two months before the MBP? The one that isn't available in a mobile processor with quad cores?

> lack of 32gb RAM option

You mean the fact that Intel doesn't support LPDDR4 on Skylake (or even Kaby Lake until ~2018) mobile processors? So was Apple supposed to just switch to desktop class processors in their unrealistically thin laptops? Have you used a laptop with it, they typically run extraordinarily hot and have terrible battery life, even with laptops with twice the battery.

The real story that the new MacBook Pros reveal is that Intel is REALLY dropping the ball. If Apple thought they were ready to switch to ARM, my money is on they would've. The fact they didn't indicates to me that despite every effort, they couldn't yet (yet being the opporative word).

(Now waiting for the downvotes from the folks who'd rather be cry Apple has lost its way rather than actually think about what could be the reasons. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot to bash Apple for, but the above two aren't them)

RotsiserMho10 anni fa

I'm pretty sure the mobile CPUs support at least 64GB of DDR3. So the memory subsystem would be desktop class but they could use the same mobile CPUs. Seems to me that might have been an option if they didn't also shrink the battery.

jsjohnst10 anni fa

Actually, they don't. Per the Intel data sheet [0], the Skylake mobile processors don't even support DDR3, they support DDR3L (lower power variant of DDR3), LPDDR3 (what the MacBook Pro uses), and DDR4. Here's the max system memory per memory type:

DDR3L: 16gb (page 20)

DDR4: 32gb (page 21)

LPDDR3: 16gb (page 21)

So the only way Apple could've supported more than 16gb RAM would've been to support DDR4. [1]

I am far from an expert, but I believe DDR4 is only available in an SO-DIMM package [3]. Sure, we would all LOVE Apple to support upgradeable memory again, but that's very likely not going to happen. Just think how much thicker (teh horror!) the laptop would have to be to support that! [2]

I also suspect that Apple is using the Y-processor line which only supports LPDDR3 memory (per page 19), so that further negates the ability to use DDR4 memory. Again, this part is unconfirmed, but would make sense.

[0] http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/...

[1] I'm still curious how Intel claims the processor supports up to 64gb RAM on the short form of the processor specs. I could not find a configuration in the detailed data sheets that allowed 64gb of RAM.

[2] (sarcasm intended there, obviously it could be easily thicker and most people wouldn't mind)

Edit:

[3] Seems I likely am wrong. DDR4 is supported in a "Memory Down" configuration as well. This would've allowed Apple to use DDR4 memory if they used a U-processor line and also used DDR4 memory. From what I am reading online (no official sources, so not linking to more speculation), this would've had a battery impact of up to 20%, thus very likely why Apple didn't do it. More info on "Memory Down" here: http://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/...

mercer10 anni fa

Just a nitpick, but it's Kaby Lake, not Kalby Lake. That is all.

jsjohnst10 anni fa

Thanks! Not sure how I typo'd twice when even A/C doesn't like the wrong spelling.

(Edit: looking back on my posts here and elsewhere, seems I misspelled it more often than not, ugh)

gog10 anni fa

There is no magsafe to usb-c adapter which makes the power adapter coming from my Apple Thunderbolt display unusable.

- have to buy a new power adapter so I don't have to carry one to work and I am still left with an unused wire appendix from the display

- have to buy a Thunderbolt to USB-C adapter for the display

- have to buy a new cable to connect iphone or USB stick, HDD, etc. to the laptop

- have to pay the premium for the touch bar although most of the time I use the machine it is closed and connected to my display and keyboard

- I can not connect the headphones from iphone 7 because of the missing lightning connector

Hopefully they will realize how broken this is now for existing users and fix some of this nonsense next year.

reustle10 anni fa

> have to pay the premium for the touch bar although most of the time I use the machine it is closed and connected to my display and keyboard

Well at least this one is optional. I'm hoping more people opt for the function-key model, so they actually release one with 4 usb-c ports instead of 2. Why did they do that, anyway?

gog10 anni fa

Unfortunately it is not optional if you also want the faster CPU.

mark-r10 anni fa

I wonder if Apple has realized that this is their New Coke moment?

[Yes, I realize 3/4 of the audience here is too young to remember: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke ]

blackoil10 anni fa

I would love for Dell/HP to seize this moment and announce a completely new line/brand of laptops segmented from current brands to just compete head-on with Macbook. Just 3-4 models <Dellbook> 13, 15 and <Dellbook> Pro 13, 15, match Apple build quality 1-1, make them high price/margin. Up the specs kabylake, 32 GB, support both Windows/Linux. Seems we have some pent up demand for this.

mercer10 anni fa

If they can get the trackpads to work as well as the Mac's, and offer some kind of Apple Care equivalent that isn't shitty (maybe they already do?), I'd be interested.

EmmEff10 anni fa

IMO, the majority of "pros" that have made the most noise about the latest MacBook Pro aren't pros at all.

baldfat10 anni fa

I am still surprised that we have people acting surprised by Apple. Weren't people says the same thing:

1. Three years ago before they had finally released the over due Mac Pro?

2. Final Cut Pro X?

3. After iPod and iPhone took over Apple's products?

mercer10 anni fa

When my ex and I finally broke up I wasn't surprised in the least. I was very sad though.

bryanlarsen10 anni fa

It's interesting what a difference a name makes. If they had called it the "MacBook Air Pro", there would be far fewer complaints.

tomtheelder10 anni fa

Sort of. What people are upset about is that there is no longer a real "Pro" option. If it had become the "Macbook Air Pro," that would complaint would still be valid. The arguments would be framed differently ("why did Apple kill the Pro line" instead of "this Macbook isn't really a Pro"), but the underlying issue would still be there.

simonswords8210 anni fa

True that, I'm actually upgrading from a Macbook Air and have none of the issues that my fellow HNers are shouting about.

[deleted]10 anni fa

provemewrong10 anni fa

Apple MacBook Air Pro with Retina Display. Rolls of the tongue nicely!

Veen10 anni fa

Rolls of mine more easily than the official name: "MacBook Pro 13-inch, Two Thunderbolt 3 Ports"

rhinoceraptor10 anni fa

I prefer "MBP13-2TB3".

tomtheelder10 anni fa

kstenerud10 anni fa

I'm glad glad glad the magsafe connector is gone. Every single one I've had has gone flaky at the magnetic connector, such that you have to fiddle with it to get just the right alignment for it to charge.

tcfunk10 anni fa

Funny how different two people's experiences can be. The magsafe is one of my favorite parts of my macbook (hardware-wise), and I've never had an issue with them connecting correctly.

XaspR8d10 anni fa

Yeah the magnetic bit is the one part that does survive for me. Don't get me wrong, the cords are shit and constantly frayed, detached, or overheated on me, but I sure miss MagSafe now that I've left Apple products.

pmarreck10 anni fa

Well, if you have a USB-C port that charges your device, this does exist, although some reviews say the magnet is currently weaker than the MagSafe's was:

https://smile.amazon.com/Griffin-BreakSafe-Breakaway-Chromeb...

tsaprailis10 anni fa

If I may ask which laptop do you currently use?

masklinn10 anni fa

I guess I'm the middle ground in that it's never flaked on me but I've never needed the magnetic lock either.

The one thing I'll miss is you don't really need to aim a magsafe connector, just bring it around the slot and it'll jump in. Not a huge gain though, and probably offset by the ability to plug power on the right side, not have to snake around to the left.

fredleblanc10 anni fa

I feel like I've saved a couple thousand dollars on machines not destroyed from being yanked across the room by accident.

But for me, the worst bit of hardware Apple has ever made is the MagSafe-to-MagSafe 2 adapter. _That_ is where the flakiness happens for me. If I'm plugging "native" plugs straight in, never a problem, but that darn little adapter — that can sometimes be 10 minutes of my morning getting it to connect.

no1youknowz10 anni fa

I'm not happy that the magsafe connector has gone. They could have come up with another version to prevent the issues that you and others have described.

However, in 4.5 years. I've only had 1 connector fray at the tip and ultimately fail. The second one I bought, has lasted for 18 months now and is doing just fine with very careful use.

Still, that said. Magsafe has saved my laptop a whole bunch of times. I'd rather have a laptop with it, then without it.

izacus10 anni fa

You don't need a MagSafe (Apple trademark) connector to build a connector that doesn't pull your laptop off a table with the cable.

That's kind of a standard feature all around.

izacus10 anni fa

Yeah for me the MagSafe was always just "that" connector that kept disconnecting as soon as I put my laptop down on an uneven surface and even started falling off everytime I moved the laptop. Which is even stranger, since my older Dell had a connector that provided same safety without the downsides.

Moving to a standardised non-proprietary charging interface is a move ahead.

pmarreck10 anni fa

I have not had this problem with any of mine (I've had a few) and wonder what the heck you're doing to affect it in this way, usability-wise

TurboHaskal10 anni fa

Semantics, duh.

I personally love the latest MacBooks (Pro 2016 and 12"), they are beautiful and the most Apple-like computers they have released in years.

I say that as an owner of a bunch of Thinkpads. It's not that I favor form over function, but I kind of like Apple being Apple.

mercer10 anni fa

They are pretty, aren't they? What makes you feel they are the most Apple-like in years?

My research into alternatives made me think the Thinkpads are probably the best option. But I just can't buy them because they're so ugly (to me). I feel really silly about that but, dammit, if there's one object where I want it to be pretty as well as functional, it's the laptop I stare at most of my day...

kriro10 anni fa

I understand all the criticism and have held off on pre ordering one myself (still shopping for a good Linux laptop with solid battery and resolution+light weight) but some of the comments seem a bit ridiculous to me.

16 GB of ram as the bare minimum for web development...come on now. Is there anything obvious I'm missing? That's even enough to run a couple of VMs with full web stacks and some testbrowsers + git and whatever editor you use

nathancahill10 anni fa

Ok, but will it be enough in 5 years? My current MBP lasted 5 years. I'm counting on my next one to be around for 5 years as well. It's something I have to think about since I can't upgrade it to 32gb down the road.

yoz-y10 anni fa

I use two old computers at home, one has 3GB of RAM and I have recently upgraded the other to 8 (from 4). Both are running fine. I use both for development.

Unless some radical shift happens then I think 16GB will be completely fine in 5 years.

mattmanser10 anni fa

Yeah, I just don't think the growth is necessary any more, unless we suddenly come up with an amazingly better way of developing by using VR or something.

throwawayReply10 anni fa

5 years ago 16GB was fine, 16GB is still fine now.

My prediction: In 5 years 16GB will be fine.

Why? Because RAM requirements passed from "We need more, it'll speed things up" to "We've got enough" a while back, and there just isn't much you can do with the extra. Once you're no longer space constrained it just ceases to move the needle.

I'm not defending Apple here, but generally it's hard to think of something that would require 32GB of ram that doesn't better belong on a server. Once you get to that kind of size you'll probably want ECC or stable uptime or other features you'll get on an actual server rather than a machine you turn on and off several times a day.

zaroth10 anni fa

"Who would ever need more than 16KB/MB/GB...."

It's not a question of whether 16GB is sufficient. It's a question of whether 16GB is an reasonable maximum for a "Pro" machine.

OK, forget about expansion and maybe adding 16GB RAM and a few more TB of flash in a couple years. Clearly that ship has sailed.

But 16GB RAM is the absolute minimum I would buy with a new machine today. For that to be the Pro's maximum is wrong.

dijit10 anni fa

5 years ago 8GB was the max you could buy for a MBP.

16G wasn't available and was considered overkill. I remember that quite clearly because it was 2011 and I bought my fully maxed out Macbook Pro from apple with 8G of ram and I was looking at 16G upgrade kits on iFixIt a year later.

So, no, 16G was not "fine", 16G was considered future proof.

DashRattlesnake10 anni fa

> Because RAM requirements passed from "We need more, it'll speed things up" to "We've got enough" a while back

And when that happens, some developers start getting lazy and careless with how they use memory, and we return to the "we need more" part of the cycle.

Xylakant10 anni fa

I do a lot of puppet development and parts of my development cycle require me to spin up a whole virtualization cluster with a master node and at least one worker node ot test interactions - possibly even starting vms in that cluster. I can certainly start simulating that with docker, but I'd prefer to be as close as possible. This does indeed require substantial RAM, but doesn't require any ECC or stable uptime.

I can certainly do that part of my development on some bit of dedicated hardware that sits in the office, but that means I need networking there, which means I can't code on the road etc.

nv-vn10 anni fa

For web development? I'd hope so.

mrweasel10 anni fa

I understand the complaint about the memory restriction, when it's coming from video editors, but for developers 16GB is fine. Web development on even 8GB isn't an issue, it's fine.

The only issue I have with the new MacBook Pro, from a personal perspective is the touch bar, it seems pretty useless. Mostly my problem is that I can't opt to not get the touch bar on larger models, so I have no means of indicating to Apple that I don't need it, or want it. Let's say it turns out the the touch bar is just a gimmick, and not of any actual use to anyone. Would Apple ever admit to that? I doubt it, so now we're stuck with it.

Also perhaps price. The MacBook Pro is somewhat overpriced.

bunderbunder10 anni fa

Really depends on what you're developing.

I'm not a web dev, I'm a back-end dev and data herder. For me, 16GB is doable, but tighter than I'd like. I prefer new computers to be roomy, because of the way data volumes tend to grow over time.

lucaspiller10 anni fa

I do frontend web and backend web services. I have 4GB on my Mac, it's tight but it works. As someone else below said, I want something for the future, and I don't think 16GB will last 5 years.

Considering you can get a ThinkPad with 64GB ram (P50) for a couple of hundred more than Apple'a base price, they seem very overpriced. Apple's laptops were already thin and light enough for me, I don't see the point in paying more to get less anymore.

gizmodo5910 anni fa

16GB is not fine in many cases. Just a VM (Say cloudera) and chrome with several tabs is enough to slow things.

toasterlovin10 anni fa

Really? I frequently have two user accounts logged in, each with their own VMs running. Along with a dozen open apps each. RAM has never been an issue for me. Like, not once.

nextos10 anni fa

I can see why people prefer more RAM, but I also agree for regular development it might not be needed.

Overall, I find it sad Apple is ignoring the professional market. Even if it only brings a small portion of their sales, I think it's bad from a strategic point of view. Developers are those who made their ecosystem so nice. Alienating them is not smart.

At the same time, their design decisions have been copied by Lenovo, in a bad way. So ThinkPads are a bit different from what they used to be, and we are left with few good options.

gregmac10 anni fa

> 16 GB of ram as the bare minimum for web development

Pretty sure you need that much just to resolve the npm dependency tree for many projects these days.

rufius10 anni fa

Wut?

I guess my viewpoint is skewed as a developer. I spend most of my time making the product I work on use as little RAM and CPU as possible.

RIP js developer's RAM.

adamors10 anni fa

Is this really so hard to comprehend? I'm not buying a 2500€ machine for 12 months. I need future proofing. I already use 10-12GB for work NOW.

76223610 anni fa

Android Studio becomes unbearable once it starts garbage collecting, which invariably happens while typing code and code completion kicks in, yanking you out of the flow. It is the one piece of software I would give 64 GB to last a day without a GC pause. JetBrains should sell hardware that is fast enough to run their software. I've also run into similar pauses on Xcode unfortunately.

rbanffy10 anni fa

> JetBrains should sell hardware that is fast enough to run their software.

Sun tried that. Didn't go well.

sssilver10 anni fa

> 16 GB of ram as the bare minimum for web development...come on now. Is there anything obvious I'm missing?

You're missing the power price you have to pay for more RAM. This is not an Apple problem. This is a physics problem.

stinkytaco10 anni fa

I would recommend a Samsung Ativ Book (940X), which is excellent with Fedora, were it not for an infuriating issue where the trackpad stops working reliably. Closing it a reopening generally solves the issue, but if you use an external mouse, it will probably be fine.

TazeTSchnitzel10 anni fa

If people are using that much for web dev, it scares me, because I don't know if the websites they're building will be useable on a modest machine.

adamors10 anni fa

Quick math for you:

- Chrome alone eats 2-3GB of RAM

- Windows 10 needs at least 6GB allocated in a VM

- Slack, Skype, an editor, Firefox etc. take up another 2GB easily.

That's just 10-11GB for boring stuff. If you have Photoshop open or sites like Zeplin that consume a lot of RAM you can reach 16GBs easily.

No need to be dismissive.

Ralfp10 anni fa

It shouldn't. This is mostly shaving time from assets pipeline, doing more at single time eg. editing design in graphics software that autoexports it to your frontend where its grabbed and served by locally running instance of an web app you are working on, shorter times needed to recreate your data to initial state, shorter times needed to populate your database with test dataset, shorter times needed for you to run your test suite, etc ect. Stuff thats manageable, but you never can't make fast enough.

randallsquared10 anni fa

I imagine that most web devs run a version of the server on their local machines, which these days might mean one or more of mariadb, mongodb, couchbase, postgresql, rethinkdb, cassandra, together with redis, rabbitmq, ELK, all the backend services and the API gateway that manages them, consul and/or etcd/kube and/or swarm... It's easier to run the full environment in development than it is to worry about bugs introduced by differences between development and production.

[deleted]10 anni fa

sealthedeal10 anni fa

marricks10 anni fa

This is just a bit mysterifying as there review of the MacBook pro sans touch said it was perfectly capable for final cut pro, Photoshop, etc. They used the CPUs in the correct thermal envelope for the laptop, except maybe the sans touch model which they said was an air replacement.

The real use case for 16 GB + of ram is video editing or tons of memory hungry VMs. Edge cases. Not only that but people begrudge them for not waiting for Canonlake* with LPDDR4, but they'd miss the holidays and have to launch in the middle of the year! Intel is continually dropping the ball with deadlines. Is it that hard to wait for a refresh which will likely have 32 GB ram next year?

These laptops seem more than capable for most professionals, The Verge just seems to be giving in to the perennial fanboy hate whenever Apple does something new...

izacus10 anni fa

> The real use case for 16 GB + of ram is video editing or tons of memory hungry VMs.

Or you know... running modern Electron apps. New Slack update burns over 1GB of RAM regularly and it's not the only thing running on the machine. 16GB might have been enough for year, but with current crazy wasting of memory for simple apps it's not that spacious anymore.

Veen10 anni fa

Then the problem isn't really the lack of memory: it's crappy apps that use way more RAM than they really need.

scaryspooky10 anni fa

But when you're stuck with a few apps that behave this way, the only recourse is to add more RAM.

supahfly_remix10 anni fa

> Slack update burns over 1GB of RAM regularly

Is this right? This is a glorified chat client! Why so much?

skykooler10 anni fa

Because it sits on top of a web browser, and keeps all chats, images, gifs etc in memory across all channels instead of just loading those for the current channel.

RodgerTheGreat10 anni fa

The "native" app is a Chromium wrapper of essentially the webapp, so it shouldn't be surprising that the performance profile is similar to that of running another web browser. Cost-effective for the developers, less than efficient for end-users. This is the same tradeoff we've collectively chosen for many things in the "rich webapp" space.

bunderbunder10 anni fa

The Giphy plugin comes to mind.

al2o3cr10 anni fa

"The Verge just seems to be giving in to the perennial fanboy hate whenever Apple does something new."

Contemplate the alternative: new MBPs aren't announced until Kaby Lake is ready. Analysts fill the internetz with "OMG APPLE HATES PROS, NOT INNOVATING ANYMOREZ"

hartator10 anni fa

In 2012, Apple announced the new rMB with new intel CPUs which weren't released yet for PC. Now, 1/10 of PCs has Kaby Lake and Apple introduce new MacBooks with previous generation. I don't see how this is not fail compared to 2012.

yoz-y10 anni fa

But the Kaby Lake processors that Apple wants to use (with a good integrated GPU) are not shipping yet. Also, there will not be a version of this processor with support for 32G ram until Coffee Lake apparently. Apple has decided to use this one line of processors and Intel failed to deliver a suitable one in time. Of course since this is the only new machine people naturally think that this is their only option. Hopefully Apple will release new desktop computers soon.

RotsiserMho10 anni fa

I think the lack of any news on other products accounts for at least 50% of the backlash. As Apple's product line stands the only products looking forward to a USB/TB3 future are laptops. Evaluated in this vacuum, the new MacBook Pro doesn't deliver. If they had showed us new iMacs and and updated Mac Pro there would be more options and more insight into what Apple's vision of that future looks like.

hartator10 anni fa

I don't fully get why I am being downvoted. The first rMB was released with third generation Intel CPUs in mid-2012. The corresponding third generation Intel CPUs were released to the public market only in 2013:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Pro#Third_generation_.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_Bridge_(microarchitecture)

jpalomaki10 anni fa

"Is it that hard to wait for a refresh which will likely have 32 GB ram next year"

The annoying part is, you don't really know if 32GB model is coming out next year or not. This of course applies to most other vendors as well.

sumoboy10 anni fa

Just wait another 3 years, by then we'll all be talking about having 64gb as the default when debuts 16gb as the standard.

rbanffy10 anni fa

What mobile processor will address 64GB 3 years from now?

wodenokoto10 anni fa

When was a notebook ever the choice for running multiple VM's or heavy editing of video?

This is what I don't understand about the current criticism.

I bought my current mac 7 years ago, and though it has dedicated 3D hardware, it was never meant for heavy gaming or rendering 3D movies, and everybody loved it. It also came with very little RAM, even for the time.

But today it is apparently a travesty that MacBook Pro doesn't offer tons of memory and high-end 3D graphics. When did they ever do that? The hall mark of the pro has always been the form factor, battery life, screen, mousepad.

GrumpyYoungMan10 anni fa

>When was a notebook ever the choice for running multiple VM's or heavy editing of video?

There has been a category of laptops that are classified as mobile workstations for quite some time now, including IBM/Lenovo's retired W5xx series and current Pxx series and Dell's Precision laptops. The MacBook Pro is (or was) considered to be Apple's equivalent.

detaro10 anni fa

And just for comparison, a 2010 Lenovo W510 already supported 32 GB. The Pxx series currently can do 64.

(But they are heavier, power-hungry and more complicated than the MacBook Pro, which IMHO isn't really in the "mobile workstation" class, but . But in comparable form factor you get 32 GB right now in various ThinkPads. Some new models only offer 16 as well, maybe for similar CPU availability reasons. But you have the choice if you need it.)

wjoe10 anni fa

> When was a notebook ever the choice for running multiple VM's or heavy editing of video?

When they became powerful enough to do it, and so more cost effective for companies to just buy laptops for everyone, rather than provide desktop computers as well as laptops for those that need to travel. Alternatively, when open plan offices and hotdesking became popular.

Everywhere I've worked for the last 5 years I've been given laptops as my main/only development device. Admittedly I'm not generally running multiple VMs, but 8GB isn't enough for my workload, 16GB would be, but I could easily see others wanting more for a future proof work laptop.

As for graphics and gaming, a few years ago they did have models with Nvidia graphics, and that doesn't seem to be the case now. That said, they were usually mid range GPUs, and Intel graphics have come a long way in that time, so there's probably not a huge difference in relative performance for modern games.

ricksplat10 anni fa

> The hall mark of the pro has always been the form factor, battery life, screen, mousepad.

Form factor was always a secondary factor. First and foremost was high specs in CPU, memory, storage, connectors and screen. i.e. for a Pro-fessional user (photographer, graphics designer, film).

I think you're getting confused with the non-Pro macbooks and 'air' line.

I'm wondering what you've been using your mac for if performance isn't a concern... I'd be concerned that you might have been paying over the odds ...

wodenokoto10 anni fa

A few months after the mid-2009 MacBook Pro release there was a MacBook release with identical specs.

In 2009 the difference between a professional and an amateur MacBook was literally screen, keyboard mousepad and aluminium vs. plastic.

> I think you're getting confused with the non-Pro macbooks and 'air' line.

The air was more expensive than a pro in the early days.

> I'm wondering what you've been using your mac for if > performance isn't a concern

Writing, researching and programming. I payed for high-quality components and a great form factor, and that has payed off well. It has always had good performance, but for the same price, I could have gotten much faster PC laptops.

ricksplat10 anni fa

> in the early days

> high-quality components and a great form factor

Yep you could have made do with a cheaper mac.

ungzd10 anni fa

No, they're not "perennial fanboys". They're just copywriters copying the same ravings about "whatever lake", "only 16 Gb", "why no touchscreen", "Surface Studio is better" from other adblock-blocking popup-opening video-autoplaying gadget-review press.

snovv_crash10 anni fa

You've been able to have a Macbook Pro with 16GB of RAM since 2011.

And what laptop in the Apple ecosystem are those who are running VMs and doing video editing meant to use? A Macbook Pro-Pro?

strictnein10 anni fa

> "Edge cases"

Those aren't edge cases in the "Pro" market, those are common professional use cases.

yannickt10 anni fa

16 GB of RAM may not be enough for some classes of professionals - beyond video editing - in the future. Considering these laptops are not upgradable, I think it's legitimate to complain about a 16 GB cap.

sumoboy10 anni fa

Using adobe apps confirms the theory that 16gb is not enough. Maybe those who think otherwise still think a 16gb iphone is adequate these days. Memory is cheap, apple is purposely building in disposability.

agumonkey10 anni fa

What I'm curious of is the impact of NVMe SSD on swap performance. In the case you saturate the 16GB, the time to swap some on disk might be so small it could be an acceptable performance hit.

rbanffy10 anni fa

AFAIK, those are still much slower than RAM.

agumonkey10 anni fa

Sure, but I remember how swapping became livable when I had my first SATA SSD, and it wasn't a high perf one (200MB/s instead of the 500MB/s you'd see maxing out SATA today). I've read latest MBP SSDs were around 2GB/s. Naively you can free 1/8 of your ram in a second. I'm no heavy user these days but it seems it can make pro users life good enough.

That said Apple memory limits are stil love for a pro line where people expect to be able to have as much as their budget can afford.

ps: maybe the iPhone mindset got to the MBP designers, iPhone are regularly behind in terms of ram specs, which somehow doesn't equate to low perf for users.

rbanffy10 anni fa

These are Intel's limits. AFAIK, the mobile parts that support more than 16 GB are not available have lower performance than the parts currently going into this machine. It'd be odd to have a new Pro lineup update with slower machines.

agumonkey10 anni fa

Sad that Intel didn't allow support for more.

ps: got me thinking, maybe MBP refresh forced Apple to accept already on shelf intel model (compromising memory limits); so maybe next year new Intel chips => new MBP. Or ... maybe Apple will double down on their own CPU IP to ensure more options.

rbanffy10 anni fa

It could be a process/tooling/manufacturing thing, something Apple could no longer stop at the point it was, that would cause the current lineup capacity to be reduced and a new lineup to be introed regardless of what was soldered on the PCB.

olegkikin10 anni fa

Running a database locally. It makes a huge difference when your DB fits into RAM.

ungzd10 anni fa

I wish these "tech journalists" copying nagging about "some lake" and "16 Gb" from each other again and again to use "comparable Windows alternatives" til the end of their lives. Even if these alternatives are hottest tablets with detachable keyboard and mouse and not Lenovo SuperfishBook Pro.

elcct10 anni fa

They should change its name to MacBook Leisure. It should be very fine piece to watch videos on the go and touch bar could be used to skip boring parts.

nashashmi10 anni fa

It does make you wonder if an actual pro book will ever be released.

ktamiola10 anni fa

Lack of ports, or stripping of aforementioned is not the point here. It is Apple's inconsistency, which is the most worrying thing here.

jpalomaki10 anni fa

Recent iPads and iPhones should have gone the USB-C route.

no1youknowz10 anni fa

As a developer, I really don't see a MacBook Pro any more. They should have really called it a MacBook Air Pro.

Also being a MBPr 2012 owner. When thinking about an upgrade, I was wanting MORE of the same but BETTER specifications.

This is what I am seeing, when I look at the MBP 2016.

- No magsafe

- No glowing apple logo

- No startup chime

- No SD card slot

- No HDMI

- No USB 2/3 ports

- No 32GB / DDR4 ram

- No Nvidia graphic card

- Reduced battery

- Reduced Keyboard travel

There is nothing that shows "Apple innovation" in this Macbook Pro 2016.

As such, no upgrade from me. I am more than happy to wait another 18 months for the next refresh. I really hope Apple takes on board why developers really loved the previous MBP line.

provemewrong10 anni fa

I find it amusing that you list "no glowing apple logo" as a downside. That's pretty much the only good part about the new MacBook Pro in my book. Besides being obnoxious (which is admittedly subjective), it lets light through in both directions. So when you have a strong enough light source in front of you, you can see a ghostly Apple logo in the middle of your screen. Chime too, I had to manually disable it on the my old MBP, why would anyone want that is beyond me.

stinos10 anni fa

Getting rid of that dreaded chime and glowing logo are the actual Pro-moves :]

ithinkinstereo10 anni fa

I'm sad to see the glowing logo go. That was a defining element of MacBooks for me. Visually speaking, nothing really differentiates MacBooks from their Samsung/Dell/etc clones anymore.

iammyIP10 anni fa

It was just visual pollution for the people not using the computer. A public disservice. Would you like it, if i walked around and shine a flashlight randomly into your face?

It however also was a good way to separate polite people from the more mindless ones, depending on wether or not they put a sticker or other obstruction on it.

striking10 anni fa

Wow, I didn't realize others felt so strongly about this. Now I feel like a rebel for just not covering my glowing Apple logo. That's a good way to start the day.

After attending a hackathon yesterday, I was going to cover my Mac with the stickers I picked up. But just for you, I'm going to leave the logo uncovered.

iammyIP10 anni fa

No problem, if i would be in a situation where it's constantly in my peripheral view, i would talk to you.

Would you refuse, i would not start a fight, but just look for another place or another way to block the view for myself.

If i was Santa Claus, you would however get no gift.

kybernetyk10 anni fa

>No problem, if i would be in a situation where it's constantly in my peripheral view, i would talk to you.

That sounds like a pretty heavy safe space invasion. I don't think I'd appreciate you talking to me about my hardware preferences.

simonswords8210 anni fa

Crikey, I never realised my glowing MacBook Air logo was visual pollution and by not covering it I was breaking an implied social contract with my fellow humans.

Good job I'm upgrading to the latest MBP and upon receipt will cease the ongoing infliction of my selfish ways on the general public.

dpark10 anni fa

A gently-glowing logo is far less disruptive or distracting than a flashlight shining in one's face.

If you expect people to cover the logo on their laptops, I can only assume you keep your phone on silent and never, ever, ever answer it in public, because a ringing phone is far more distracting as is a phone conversation. For that matter, so is in-person conversation, so I hope you never hold conversations in public either.

Or put another way, calling a glowing logo a public disservice is ridiculous and if you believe it you're either a recluse or a hypocrite.

Sagiri10 anni fa

You weren't replying to me, but I genuinely do keep my phone on silent (no, not vibrate) and will never answer it (both because it's rude and because I don't notice it).

But I do try to check it regularly whenever I get the chance.

jmkni10 anni fa

It reminds me of when Microsoft removed Aero from Windows.

Initially I thought it was a step backwards, but now I don't miss it, and it helped to improve battery life on mobile devices too.

karpodiem10 anni fa

agree - I'm ready to let go of the chime and lit logo.

But the rest of the points the OP/article made are spot on; this isn't a Pro machine.

ap310 anni fa

The glowing Apple logo was a great marketing move.

Just walk in to any conference and you could instantly assess the Mac's popularity among the group

You see it in movies too

In fact Inwatched a movie the other day with an iMac and no glowing logo and it looked weird

iammyIP10 anni fa

yes, removing that stupid mag lite on the backside is the best move apple ever made.

mistermann10 anni fa

It was fantastic marketing imho, seeing a row of those in the window of a coffee shop is a fairly strong signal.

RandomOpinion10 anni fa

>It was fantastic marketing imho, seeing a row of those in the window of a coffee shop is a fairly strong signal.

Walking into a gathering with all those Apple logos lit while carrying a ThinkPad did make me feel like a bit of a rebel. Rather ironic.

tushar-r10 anni fa

I wish we could get reasonably priced and spec'd Thinkpads in India. Had to move on to an MBP last year after almost 8 years with a T60 and T410.

dpark10 anni fa

I still find it odd that people bring up Thinkpads in comparison with MacBook Pros. I have used Thinkpads for a while. Both my personal and business laptop are Thinkpads, and I'm unimpressed. The screens are low quality. The one on my personal device is utter trash. The trackpads are low quality mostly due to drivers. I won't buy another. They are better than some alternatives but I don't think they compare to MacBooks for finish or feel, and they cost about the same for similar specs.

CaptSpify10 anni fa

A lot of the Thinkpad comparisons are based on nostalgia, IMO. I used to love Thinkpads, but ever since they went to Lenovo, they've been steadily going downhill.

CaptSpify10 anni fa

Oddly enough, that idea is what makes me not want to use a mac.

http://vwordpress.stmarys-ca.edu/ame1ian/files/2014/03/think...

I want a machine that is customized to work the way I want it to work. I don't want a machine that is generalized to suit non-techs.

WayneBro10 anni fa

I'd rather think different[ly].

apercu10 anni fa

I had a few Powerbooks in the 90's. I can't remember which one it was (I think it was a Pismo) but I was working on the couch one day with the laptop on a small stool in front of me.

Someone knocked on the door and I got up, catching the power cord on my leg. The stool fell over and the screen shattered.

Magsafe is definitely a great feature on my MBPro 2012

nashashmi10 anni fa

USB-C is celebrated as the dock mode connector. Isn't a constant dock to all those great things you mentioned sufficient? Is it really necessary to have all those ports everywhere you go? Take HDMI for example: do you really need that everywhere such that an extension will not work? Or a graphics card: another one cannot be added via USB-C?

The rest of your points are pretty funny e.g. no glowing apple logo!

[edit] For comments to this post, I add Apple is known for eliminating clutter before the industry does, without regard to cost. By making every user specifically buy adapters if they need it, they are simplifying the product, conserving resources, and making money too. Win, win, win.

samtho10 anni fa

I agree that USB-C is awesome and is technically superior in every way. The problem is that right now very few things actually support being attached to a USB C host without some sort of adapter.

My biggest gripe, however, is the sudden loss of Magsafe in favor of USB-C charging only. This is a huge step backwards as Magsafe was developed to protect the computer and the charger from damage in case of a sudden, omni-directional tug. I can't imagine the internals of a USB-C connector holding up to that abuse. While they say you wont need to charge it as frequently, I don't buy that this will always be the case, not to mention it is very difficult to change user behavior and people will still attempt to charge it casually.

mcphage10 anni fa

> I agree that USB-C is awesome and is technically superior in every way. The problem is that right now very few things actually support being attached to a USB C host without some sort of adapter.

In 3 years when you still own the machine and almost everything is USB-C, you'll probably feel differently about the ports.

> My biggest gripe, however, is the sudden loss of Magsafe in favor of USB-C charging only. This is a huge step backwards as Magsafe was developed to protect the computer and the charger from damage in case of a sudden, omni-directional tug.

This is my biggest gripe, too. Magsafe saved my ass more times than I want to think about.

cwyers10 anni fa

I think you're really optimistic about how quickly everyone is going to switch to USB-C. Three years isn't enough time to have it be the standard for new devices, much less replace legacy stuff.

mcphage10 anni fa

> I think you're really optimistic about how quickly everyone is going to switch to USB-C.

At this point, many new computers have USB-C, and a growing number of computers have only USB-C. So there's a market of people who need USB-C connectors, and untapped markets with a strong demand and a proven willingness to spend premium money attracts device manufacturers heavily. So maybe I'm being optimistic, but I don't think overwhelmingly so.

jsjohnst10 anni fa

Buy the Griffin "MagSafe" USB-C cable. Problem solved!

I'm actually really surprised Apple didn't make it themselves.

helthanatos10 anni fa

It's about convenience and servicing the greatest number of people. Some may need an SD slot often. Others may need to plug into an external display wherever they go. Maybe in five years C will be more universal, but now is not the time to remove them. They should have also left 1 or 2 USB-A ports. I don't have a single USB-C device.

Lio10 anni fa

> Isn't a constant dock to all those great things you mentioned sufficient?

Then why not include it in the box?

Apple increased the price and removed the mains extension cable, surely they could have done something to make the transition easier?

We've been told that early Thunderbolt 3 compatibility is not consistent. So at this stage it's probably safer to stick with Apple branded dongles and adapters.

Something as simple as connecting my existing monitor through Display Port now needs an adapter. £30 [1]

As it stands it's not even clear yet what will and won't work with the new machines.

E.g. do I need to buy another USB-c Superdrive for the 2 times a year I have to burn a DVD for someone? £79 [2]

The existing USB-A Superdrive won't even work through a generic USB hub, will it work through a USB-A to USB-C converter? £9 [3]

I don't use HDMI very often except when I'm doing presentations but that's another £49. [4]

Not to mention I now need to spend £19 to connect my iPhone and another £19 to replace the extension cord they were too cheap to include.

It all mounts up; nickels and dimes.

[edit] I should probably add that, yes, I can expense this stuff to my business but it's still, it's a pain on a such a high end product.

[1]: http://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MMEL2/thunderbolt-3-usb...

[2]: http://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MD564ZM/A/apple-usb-sup...

[3]: http://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MJ1M2/usb-c-to-usb-adap...

[4]: http://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MJ1K2ZM/A/usb-c-digital...

cakes10 anni fa

having a laptop currently (Latitude 7370) which has only one "classic" usb slot...I'd kill for 2...so having none would be even harder. It comes down to doing the simple things like using USB flash drives quickly without immediately needing a dongle.

QuantumRoar10 anni fa

Apple has a lot of developers. I wonder what they think about the new MBPs. There are so many complaints from developers that I cannot believe that all Apple engineers are happy with their new choices in MBPs. I wonder if a lot of displeased Apple engineers can change the direction the Pro stuff is headed.

mercer10 anni fa

For me the main issue is that the 4-port fully-spec'd-out version is just too expensive. If not for the price I could live with the choices.

I suspect Apple developers would be able to afford the beefiest model, assuming they don't get it for free. So there's that.

matthewmacleod10 anni fa

Don't ever forget that you're listening to the loud echo-chamber noise of the internet, though!

People who don't think there isn't much wrong with the new MBPs aren't going to make a lot of noise about that fact.

fgandiya10 anni fa

Exactly. I work at my college's library and we lend out the top line 15" MBP complete with GPU and 16GB RAM which are almost always checked out.

Most of the patrons only use Word and Safari on them anyway.

therealmarv10 anni fa

ok, but you are only seeing the downsides, let me add the benefits:

- more efficient CPU (less battery is possible without less battery runtime)

- better display (Display P3 color, more nits)

- better sound

- lighter

- better structural engineering (all metal, even the hinges) and therefor also no apple backlight (which makes the structural part better).

- Charging with normal smartphone battery packs is now possible.

endymi0n10 anni fa

Sorry, but this is wrong.

"less battery is possible without less battery runtime" -> doesn't work with CPU bound software like Hangouts or external appliances that need to be powered. Fact is the battery is much smaller.

- Better display: granted

- Better sound: Nope, there's no substitute for bass response, all of which gets better the larger the speaker and enclosure is

- Lighter: Yes. This is a professional's priority number 2749 though.

- Structural engineering: It's half as thin. If you know mechanics, you'd need a material double as tough in order to make up for the loss in structural stability. Not gonna happen, maybe their most recent super duper aluminum alloy is 20-30% tougher. Overall, a thinner structure is ALWAYS more brittle.

All in all, OP is completely right: This simply isn't a professional machine.

dpark10 anni fa

> Lighter: Yes. This is a professional's priority number 2749 though.

I use my laptop in a professional capacity and weight is a huge factor for me. I carry my laptop everywhere.

Incremental yearly changes in weight have generally not been that impressive but in aggregate the difference is huge. Go pick up a 10-year-old laptop and you'll probably agree.

> Structural engineering: It's half as thin. If you know mechanics, you'd need a material double as tough in order to make up for the loss in structural stability.

I'm no mechanical engineer, but I don't believe that's correct. There are a number of factors that impact the structural stability of an item. The internal structure has a huge impact, which is why I-beams exist.

It's also not as if the space saved is the result of just milling out half of the original aluminum. The actual metal case is probably the same thickness or close.

snovv_crash10 anni fa

I am a mechanical engineer. GP is correct: if the skin stays the same thickness, then halving the distance between the two skins halves the strength to resist bending. Central reinforcement, like an I beam, don't help with the bending force but rather stops the two skins from moving towards or away from each other, AKA buckling. The other way it helps is as a shear web, in that it stops the skins from sliding past each other.

But basically, for a laptop to be half the thickness and equivalently strong it will need the structure to be twice as heavy, as the skins and webbing need to be twice as thick. That leaves even less room for battery, quiet fans and replaceable components, a high price to pay for something which is labeled "Pro".

dpark10 anni fa

Well, I'm not a mechanical engineer, so I won't argue this further. Nonetheless, this discussion is irrelevant unless the new MacBook pros are too easy to bend, which I don't believe is a known issue. I've never heard of anyone having bending issues with MacBook Airs, so I don't see why it would be an issue here.

anon1234569010 anni fa

I also carry my laptop everywhere and have never felt the weight to be an issue. Perhaps you should go to the gym more. The last-gen laptops weigh less than a decent hardcover book. How is that too much to deal with?

blackoil10 anni fa

most developer(few thousand) in my company and most other I know of work for hours on desk in stretch, attend few meetings within office, use it some more in commute, back at home work/play some more on desk/bed. Once in few months travel to client/remote office/conference where they have to carry it for stretch. I expect same pattern from graphic/app designers, animators, video editor and PROfessionals in general. Sure marketing, consultant and similar profile move a lot but they don't need a pro level performance.

So a lightweight/reasonable performance Macbook line and a little heavier/high performance Macbook Pro makes so much more sense.

dpark10 anni fa

You're describing people who are picking up and carrying their laptops multiple times per day and carry it back and forth to work and home every day. These people seem like the target market for a lightweight laptop.

blackoil10 anni fa

carrying but not for long, never seen a programmer wary of to carry their current Macbook Pro few floors down the lift and then walk to meeting room. If you start feeling the weight for this little, problem is not your laptop. And, I am all for lightweight if that does not include compromise in battery life and performance.

dpark10 anni fa

I don't think I said that people have trouble carrying their laptops. No one really had trouble carrying 10 lb laptops either but it's quite a bit nicer to carry a modern lighter laptop.

Forever people have said that they would prefer a heavier laptop with a bigger battery and for better or worse, companies have generally ignored that. I don't think it's really a "pro" issue either way.

anon1234569010 anni fa

The scenarios you describe are not that bad. People are just fine carrying a few pounds around.

matthewmacleod10 anni fa

This simply isn't a professional machine.

It's far from clear that this is 'simple'.

falcolas10 anni fa

> Charging with normal smartphone battery packs is now possible.

I was going to rebut this statement as useless (my instincts were telling me that it should be under 10% of the total built-in battery), then I did the math. Your typical high capacity charging pack providing 15,000 mAh actually has almost double the capacity of a built in battery for the 13" MBP.

15,000 mAh * 5V / 1000 = 75 watt-hours

Compared to ~50 watt-hours for the MBP

I'll say that again. A sub $50 battery pack provides almost double the battery life of the one built into a $1,500 laptop.

helb10 anni fa

> 15,000 mAh * 5V / 1000 = 75 watt-hours

It would be less, given the (dis)charging efficiency. Quick look at search results suggests about 80% (so ~60Wh), which is still nice for that price though.

monkmartinez10 anni fa

You'll need dongles for 2 of the 6 positives you mentioned. :\

cobralibre10 anni fa

I'm curious about the lack of a hardware power button. I wonder how one forces one of these new Macs to shut down when it hangs?

pmarreck10 anni fa

As an owner of a mid-2014 Macbook Pro who is tired of the trackpad clicker clicking itself when the case is warped even a quarter of a millimeter (such as on my... lap... it's a laptop, after all), I appreciate the new solid-state trackpad taken from the Macbook.

travv010 anni fa

Are you referring to the trackpad with the haptic feedback? That was on last year's models as well.

ebbv10 anni fa

I'm in the same boat. I have a 2012 rMBP and I am sticking with it instead of getting one of these new machines. They bring nothing to the table I care about.

They have optimized for thinness and lightness where those should be nice bonuses on a machine focused on being a fantastic work machine for professional developers. Not a machine focused on being thin and light that developers can "make due" with.

endymi0n10 anni fa

At their rate of taking sane stuff away in the name of "design", their 2017 MacBook Pro and the 2017 iPad Pro will be the same device. Because by now, there's honestly not so much more to lose than 3 USB-C connectors and a keyboard.

Exuma10 anni fa

Also............ no vim key. Kill me

striking10 anni fa

Ctrl-[ is a better Escape, though. (and is enabled by default in Vim, in your terminal, and Vim modes in other editors.) You don't even have to lift your fingers off the home row.

Exuma10 anni fa

I use that a lot but I like both depending on what I'm doing. It also kills command+F3 which I use constantly

Matthias24710 anni fa

However it's a console escape key, which means it doesn't work in graphical applications (VS Code, Atom, IDEs, ...). You might also want vim mode there. Or want easy access to escape for other reasons (intellisense can sometimes be annoying, ...).

striking10 anni fa

Sublime's Vim mode (https://www.sublimetext.com/docs/2/vintage.html)

> Vintage supports these ctrl key bindings:

  * Ctrl+[: Escape
  [... others]

Atom-vim-mode-plus has it by default. https://github.com/t9md/atom-vim-mode-plus/blob/master/keyma...

VSCodeVim doesn't have it by default, but it's an option. https://github.com/VSCodeVim/Vim#usectrlkeys

If you need Escape, there is always a way to get it. Whether you bind the touch bar top-left to Escape (which you should in an editing application basically and nowhere else) or you use the widely-held Ctrl-[ default bind from your favorite Vim mode. Plus, the agency of being able to dynamically rebind the rest of the keys or use it as a separate HUD could be seen as useful.

I agree the MacBookPro 2016 is bad. But this is a stupid reason to think it's bad.

Veen10 anni fa

The lower tier model does have an escape key. For Touch Bar machines, there will be an escape "key" on the touch bar, which I don't think will be much more inconvenient than reaching for the actual escape key. Lots of Vim users map that key to something else anyway — it's not well placed for such a commonly used key.

nashashmi10 anni fa

Vim ... reimagined with a touch bar interface. Just wait.

helb10 anni fa

It's easy to remap CapsLock (which is in a more convenient position than original Esc key IMO) or something to act as escape.

I think i would be bothered by missing F keys more…

[deleted]10 anni fa

ap310 anni fa

What if there is no wifi ? It doesn't have an ethernet jack or at least a comm/serial port

You also forgot about the vga, mouse/kb ports, also no slot for CF cards :(

How am I supposed to connect to a printer with this pro machine? It has no printer port.

MrScruff10 anni fa

Skipping the whole pro-vs-not-pro debate entirely, I never understand the whole 'pros are smart with their money and Mac is poor bang for buck' argument.

If a pro is someone who earns their living through using a computer, what's more important? Saving a few hundred dollars on a laptop? Or purchasing the machine that you feel allows you to work the most efficiently?

marricks10 anni fa

Every windows laptop I've bought has had a faulty hinge or hard drive failure. I've seen similar things with my girlfriend's computer. My next laptop I want to be more expensive but last half a decade.

Sadly XPS 13 and other "leading" windows laptops seem to fall victim to the same less than perfect manufacturing. Apple charges more, but there laptops are also well built.

Something I use every day for a long time I don't want to save a few bucks on it the short term.

WayneBro10 anni fa

Every Windows laptop I've bought has worked perfectly, with zero defects.

Same thing for my wife. And we're both heavy users who use our machines all day for work. We've had every brand of PC and never had any problems. Ever. Not even kidding a little.

The only problems I've ever had were with Apple hardware. Their laptops would overheat and the Mac OS would crash often. In every Macbook Pro I've had, the batteries died sooner than any other laptop brand.

Macbook Pros are terrible overpriced crap. (But they're really thin now, yay!)

Furthermore, upgrades and repairs are next to impossible or a real pain in the butt with Apple hardware. One of my Apple machines is a 2012 Mac Pro that I want to get a new video card for - but can I go to Amazon and just buy one off the shelf? No. I must go to www.macvidcards.com to get a card that works fully. I must also buy special, non-standard internal power cables for it.

marricks10 anni fa

Of course we're just talking anecdotes, but large surveys back up that Apple just makes more reliable hardware,

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/laptops/LaptopReliability

WayneBro10 anni fa

Sure, but none of my problems with Apple hardware have had anything to do with reliability.

The fact that various Macbook Pro models get very hot is a well documented issue. I wonder if we can get some data on how much the Mac OS crashes though, relatively?

Apple's extreme efforts to lock you into their hardware and prevent upgrading are also very well known.

That last one is my biggest gripe. They are anti-choice and ultimately, anti-consumer. The Apple hardware lineup is small, sterile and boring to me. There's so much more, better and newer stuff going on outside of Apple's tiny little world.

mercer10 anni fa

Is there a Windows equivalent of Time Machine, which offers backups but also setting up your new computer with the old OS in no time? And how are the trackpads of your current machine?

These are my main concerns before I make any jump back to Microsoft-world (which I'm really considering).

WayneBro10 anni fa

Backups - http://lifehacker.com/how-to-back-up-your-computer-automatic...

I don't use touchpads, even on my laptops. I use a vertical five button wireless mouse because I don't like to rotate my cuff all day since I get repetitive stress syndrome. However, my wife does use the touchpad on her Surface Pro 3 and it works just fine for her. Actually there is one touch pad that I do use for my entertainment PC in my living room and that is a logitech K400R. It also works just fine with two finger scrolling, swiping etc.

[deleted]10 anni fa

Veen10 anni fa

> Saving a few hundred dollars on a laptop? Or purchasing the machine that you feel allows you to work the most efficiently?

It's a fair point, but there's a limit. Pro's will pay over the odds for efficiency and ruggedness, but the new pricing has an air of exploitation. At some point, the prices become unjustifiable.

MrScruff10 anni fa

> At some point, the prices become unjustifiable.

In what sense though? Because the premium they're charging doesn't feel fair? That sounds odd to me. Pros have a history of paying ridiculous sums to work on exotic hardware like SGI's because it was the best tool for the job. A few hundred doesn't seem like that big a deal.

mercer10 anni fa

I'm afraid Apple is thinking exactly this way. As a 'Pro customer' I know that I can and probably will end up paying more for 'less' eventually and get one of the new MacBook Pros.

But for the first time in my life as an Apple user (just short of 10 years, I think), for the very first time I feel the price is only barely justifiable and I actively looked into alternatives.

I suppose the fact that I couldn't find an alternative that was good enough validates Apple's current offering and pricing. But it's a solid chunk of goodwill gone, and the moment I find an alternative that is good enough, they'll lose at least one well-paying customer.

And even then it's probably not a problem for them. They make so much on their mobile devices that the Pro can be an afterthought.

Veen10 anni fa

I'm happy to pay more for a MacBook than I would the equivalent Windows machine or Linux laptop because I value the experience of using MacOS, the superior (for me) software ecosystem, and what I consider to be better hardware and support.

But, I don't attach an infinite value to each of those. I will pay more for those things — even more than they're worth on a strictly rational assessment — because I can't get them elsewhere.

But at a certain point, the "Apple premium" becomes so obviously punitive that I start thinking that it wouldn't be so bad to deal with Windows or Linux, that the hardware from other manufacturers isn't all that inferior, that I'll put up with the support from a Lenovo.

But, on the other hand, I'll probably just hang on to what I have until the next iteration.

Theodores10 anni fa

The 16Gb RAM 'let's throw the toys out of the pram' problem has not been handled very well.

The Skylake CPUs I have seen all seem to be limited to 16Gb max RAM. Allegedly there are desktop variants that take more. The Skylake CPUs also have fewer cores in them than one might expect, e.g. two cores (with hyperthreading so '4') in a i7 CPU, for years one has expected four cores (with HT, so '8') in anything branded 'i7'.

There is NVMe for the SSD and I am sure the Apple folks have some nifty driver to swap to disk a lot quicker than in the olden days. So main memory is a bit more like 'cache' in that there is no need to be that hung up on the specifics. If your main program can reside in 16Gb RAM with operating system then all is good. Throwing more memory at the CPU is not how it works on Skylake.

Apple could have avoided the latest CPUs but imagine the outrage of 'old hardware' The new CPUs are low power, you get all day battery. I also wonder whether those people complaining about a lack of RAM are after selling website clicks or doing real work.

strictnein10 anni fa

Really not sure where you're getting your info. The Skylake series is not limited to two cores and can handle more than 16GB. With DDR3 it's 32GB, with DDR4 it's 64GB. This is true of their mobile and desktop parts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skylake_(microarchitecture)#Li...

Edit:

Maybe you're just confusing Skylake and Kaby Lake?

votr10 anni fa

If Dell releases an XPS 15 in Q1 with Kaby Lake, discrete graphics, and 32GB ram, I'm in.

romanovcode10 anni fa

And hopefully trackpad that is just as good.

feedjoelpie10 anni fa

With that new Windows Subsystem for Linux feature, I'm honestly starting to consider a post-Mac future for my dev work. I'm sure there are a bunch of things about Windows 10 that will annoy me, but the value proposition of Mac is starting to disappear as Microsoft does better and Apple does worse. If Apple didn't tie iOS dev to its own desktop OS, I might be taking Windows for a spin right now.

pmarreck10 anni fa

I recommend just keeping your dev environment in a VirtualBox or VMWare VM that is mobile between physical machines and OS'es. That way you at least get some insurance, AND you get snapshotting and easy backups.

WayneBro10 anni fa

Gee, I wish I could run the Mac OS in a VM though. Too bad Apple won't let me do that unless I'm running it on their overpriced, under-powered hardware with the one supported configuration: running the Mac OS as the host OS.

(Sorry, I won't call it "macOS" anymore because my marketing services don't come free - I'll continue to refer to it as "the Mac OS" since it's the OS that you can only run on a Mac.)

Windows has a better business model for everybody. You can run it anywhere you want without restriction. It's also a vastly superior OS both technically and with regards to UX for Pro and Business users. For those that enjoy UNIX - Apple is still shipping 10 year old GNU utils with the Mac OS and meanwhile, Windows now comes with Ubuntu...and it's fucking awesome!

pmarreck10 anni fa

> Too bad Apple won't let me do that unless I'm running it on their overpriced, under-powered hardware with the one supported configuration: running the Mac OS as the host OS.

Somewhat agree: If Apple considers iOS the current "cash cow", then they should just open-source "macOS" and thereby expand its potential userbase. They could even charge to "certify" certain hardware or VM configs for it, while leaving the rest of the troubleshooting on uncertified hardware to the masses.

> You can run it anywhere you want without restriction.

Hahahaha no. I can copy my entire MacOS install/drive to literally any other Mac, or copy it to an external drive and hook it up to ANY Mac, and it boots just fine off it. It doesn't force me to re-validate, it doesn't force me to call Apple, it essentially doesn't assume I'm guilty until proven innocent. You absolutely positively cannot do this with Windows, which makes moving installs (such as to new PC's) ridiculously painful (to any experienced Mac user such as myself). And having to revalidate every time you upgrade your own hardware? LOL.

> It's also a vastly superior OS both technically

OK now you're literally smoking crack. The OS with the most security holes, by far, in history, is "vastly superior." The OS with such incredible UX oversights as completely removing the ability to shut down from the UI if you enable Fast Boot mode (which is really just a renamed "hibernate"), is superior for Pro users? That's just my most recent encounter of hundreds. LOLOLOL. (I use a Windows machine for gaming. Because that's all it's good for- it's too fucking naggy to tolerate if I want to get any actual work done. And forced reboots without saving the entire state of the apps you're running are fucking stupid... at least MacOS has a facility to save the entire state of a running application if there is EVER a need to involuntarily reboot... Which there almost never is.)

> For those that enjoy UNIX - Apple is still shipping 10 year old GNU utils with the Mac OS

Apparently you don't use a Mac at all for development or you'd know this: Everyone who's anyone who enjoys UNIX dev on MacOS has long since moved on to Homebrew http://brew.sh/ which puts all those latest utils into userspace.

mercer10 anni fa

I'm close to making a similar decision. But then I think about not having the convenience of Time Machine (and seamlessly moving to a new laptop), apps like OmniFocus, the quality of the trackpad, the 'just-works' sleep mode and a bunch of other things, and much as I hate to admit it I still end up at the MacBook Pro line...

camwest10 anni fa

If you can try it then you should. It was a good reality check for me. I elaborated a little more here https://mobile.twitter.com/camwest/status/793236560250494976

[deleted]10 anni fa

wineisfine10 anni fa

Are the developers at Cupertino themselves not fed up with this? Working on 2013 Mac Pro's or perhaps, they're all on hackintoshes.

oldmanjay10 anni fa

What is it that makes people thinking whining endlessly about Apple is interesting?

GBKS10 anni fa

Really don't understand this. Why can't those demanding Pro people just get iMacs. It's cheaper and supports 32GB of RAM. Of course, it's stationary, but pretty sure those specific professionals are mostly stationary anyways because they use multiple monitors. This while freak-out about the MBPs ist just silly.

satysin10 anni fa

> Of course, it's stationary

You answered your own question. I need a machine that is portable that I can hook up to multiple monitors at home and at work, and that I can use on the go for meetings, customer visits, etc.

How the hell will an iMac help me there?

GBKS10 anni fa

But that's a matter of priority then, isn't it? If portability is important then you have to sacrifice some power.

I'm curious, what do you run on your computer to max out a brand-new MBP with 16GB of Ram?

I currently do design and dev work on a 3 year old MBP with 8GB Ram. This includes running VMs for I.E. and back-ends for various projects, using Xcode to build apps, editing Sketch files with 50+ screens, photo editing in Photoshop and motion graphics in AfterEffects. Naturally I don't everything at once, but even with a combo of some of them, everything runs just fine. So this makes me genuinely curious what people do that these brand-new machines can't handle. And are those demands really the majority use case? If not, then there is an argument for having different machines for the demanding work loads and maybe a smaller laptop or even iPad for meetings.

What are your thoughts?

sumoboy10 anni fa

That's what apple wants you to do, buy a macbook and iMac. Apple had the competitive laptop edge for a long time but now they've lost it to dell, samsung, and hp.

mvitorino10 anni fa

I think you presume to know too much about the habits of these MBP users. Even if you spend 90% of your time at the same desk, you have meetings at customers', you travel, you work on the weekend or at night and no one wants to have 2 machines.

pmarreck10 anni fa

One of the benefits of being a developer is being able to develop from anywhere. If you're unable to take advantage of this, you're seriously missing out on one of the best perks IMHO.

rufius10 anni fa

This is a sincere question: what do people need with 32 GB of RAM on a dev laptop?

I work on an MBA 11" with 8GB and I'm using Parallels to run Visual Studio 2015 for a work related project (100k+ C#/C++ codebase). Other than that work I do some Haskell and C++ work locally. It chugs along just fine and I don't feel like I'm hurting with it compared to compiling on my dev box at work.

Are people just spinning up a lot of VMs? I've got a beefy box at work for when I need to do heavy lifting because I value battery life on the laptop over doing it locally. Additionally, I like the static context - work on code at work ok beefy workstation then go home and remote in if I still have more to do.

TL;DR: what are people's use cases for 32gb on a laptop if you're a developer? Why not remote into big box?

mamcx10 anni fa

> Why not remote into big box?

Internet is not reliable. Pls, we are talking about PRO work.

> What do people need with 32 GB of RAM on a dev laptop?

Databases. I run Sql Server, PostgreSQL, MySql, Firebird. All at the same time? Yes.

Also, the thing about "Big Data" is need as much RAM as possible.

---

I could live with a iMac (what I have) or a MacPro (that I can't buy because the dolar in my country double in price!) but the main issue here is the signaling. Apple is like telling "We don't care anymore about you".

How will be trust the (maybe next?) upgrades to the rest of the line will be almost good now? And what about the next after this ones?

rufius10 anni fa

Regarding internet - are you referring to cafe wifi or your own home internet connection? What exactly is insufficient about internet?

I work from home 2-3 days a week so good internet is key - especially since my main machines need to be domain joined so RDP is ideal.

Just trying to understand what your scenario is.

mamcx10 anni fa

I work from home too. The internet is ok here. But is reliable? Not. Also, the internet somethings get slow just because, I need to reset the modem, or call to get it fixed (so the provider replace it with another (?)) and things work for weeks, until not again.

Also the latency make some things slower.

rufius10 anni fa

Full transparency - I work at a "Big Company" and I've got gigabit. So when I say internet is good, it's quite good. No latency issues and no hardware issues in the 1.5 years I've had it.

Either way - fair enough. You don't like the reliability of your internet so the power of the machine locally is important.

e4010 anni fa

Why not remote into big box?

<sigh> Because when you demo, being tied to a box on the other side of the planet is asking for trouble.

I really can't believe the "why do you need that much RAM?" question still gets asked.

wattt10 anni fa

You can't remote in on most flights, as one example.

rufius10 anni fa

A fair point - I'm not contesting the need for it just curious as to what people are doing.

I record my demos now as I don't care for live demos but that's just my way of dealing with it.

lanaius10 anni fa

To be fair, being a Professional at a computer covers a lot more than just C#/C++ code. Back when I was doing neuroscience research, I could eat up 32 GB of RAM in a MATLAB simulation easy. Using microscopy data people could eat up 32 GB with images (or videos) in no time flat. There's tons of algorithmic work that needs large enough in-memory data to be useful.

rufius10 anni fa

That's fair and that's why I'm asking the question. I'm curious what others are doing that they feel they need more than 16gb.

I'm not contesting people's needs, I'm curious what they are.

xemdetia10 anni fa

I am in spinning up a ton of VM's category as well as the artistic category. With networking options available I can have a complete, closed environment that only disturbs my PC. From the artistic side once you start slinging 4k+ images around on multiple layers RAM vs. no RAM is death. What's great though? On my 32GB+ systems I can just do both on the same time and then come back to it later. If you have the ability to leave things spooled up you really miss when you start having to do a hard context switch.

It's more realizing the promise of hibernate/suspend options- if you don't have to reboot or stop what you are working on to do something else, why would you? And when it's in a portable laptop you can just take it anywhere, where a big box may be unavailable/down. Not to mention the TCO of a big box versus a laptop in electricity and everyday costs is actually much lower and comes with free battery backup, embedded keyboard and screen! I repurpose many of my old laptops to be servers/development support for that reason and I want my systems to be expandable, because RAM is what I really want to keep things speedy.

rufius10 anni fa

Got it. Thanks!

amjaeger10 anni fa

Robotics Engineer(ing student). Also annoyed that only the most expensive pro has a real graphics card.

Things that need a lot of RAM:

Solidworks, Fusion360 (I can't even run it on 8bg with and an integrated gpu) And using Solidworks remotely is a bad joke.

Robot Path planning, motion planning

AI Assignments,

ROS + RVIZ + Gazebo + actual robot software

Anything written in python

[EDIT almost forgot] Matlab, VMs

Playing music or having a web browser open while any of the above things are running...

16bg would probably be fine for 2 years. But >$2000 is a lot to pay for only 2 years of use. People seem to think that just because its no longer current_year-1 that their desktop app can use previous_version's_RAM+0.5gb

There are enough people with enough reasons for having only a laptop. The dell precision m5510 is around same price as mbp (depending on setup) and yet it comes with a real graphics card, and the option for 32 gb of RAM.

wattt10 anni fa

It suggests you work on one client at a time. I'll often have a few VMs running as I switch between 2-3 clients in a given day. For me 8GB is a minimum.

Spartan-S6310 anni fa

What type of work do you do exactly? I'm just curious because in my experience, I've never run virtual machines with front ends. As of late, I haven't been running VMs at all and have been using Docker containers on my Mac to emulate the environment I need something to run in.

lj310 anni fa

Video game developers, video editors and graphic artists are the traditional professions where more ram is always better. But, in the days where nobody pays attention to memory usage, casual use can peg all of your ram and page the living daylights out of your hard drive[0]. I've had chrome eat up 32gb all on its own. No VM required.

[0]: https://www.macintouch.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=1046 (Spotify is killing SSDs)

TurboHaskal10 anni fa

No. They buy insane amounts of RAM they don't need, open up the resource monitor, see the greedy apps taking over 19GB of RAM and scream "see guys!! i told you i needed 32gb!1"

flurdy10 anni fa

16Gb is ok for now I am already feeling the constraint and know my next laptop which should last 3+ years will have to have 32 gb to be comfortable with my future usage pattern and apps memory feature creep.

My usage is obviously not like everyones: lots of docker container and vagrant vms both with dedicated memory, unhealthy amount of browser tabs, memory hogging intellij (especially with scalaz implicits and having lots of projects open at the same time). And the biggest memory killer: working for clients with very large ecosphere stack of JVM based microservices that you spin most of up locally including dbs.

Whenever I pair with devs using 8gb MBAs on these projects they continually apologises for the MBA's slowness and their need to continually shutdown part of microservices stack as they run into 8gb constraints.

16gb is a sweet spot today, but not in 2 or less years.

Remoting into private/cloud vms or integrating with staging environments is possible sometimes, but I work on the train for 2 hours a day as well as from home a lot, and in demos, meetings, coffee shops. So relying on dodgy VPNs over fragile connections is painful. So spinning up the whole stack locally has always been a must for me. Again, this is not most people's pattern.

( Though spinning up microservices not just locally is a frustration why I in anger started https://github.com/flurdy/philharmonic )

sigzero10 anni fa

Every time I've seen someone ask for more RAM it has been because they are spinning up multiple VMs.

monkmartinez10 anni fa

Or like 12 chrome tabs....

rufius10 anni fa

Ya - that was my assumption though I can't envision spinning up more than one a laptop at a time. That said, I don't do client work so my context is relatively static.

strictnein10 anni fa

Yes, VMs, used in a wide variety of ways.

And being reliant on connectivity to a "big box" to simply get your work done is suboptimal. Also, how big of box do you need when you've got hundreds if not thousands of devs? Much easier (and cheaper, since there's no upkeep) to throw another 16GB of memory inside every developer's system.

rufius10 anni fa

Well when I say big box, I mean big box per dev but I get your point.

The message I'm getting from folks is that if you do contract/client work, you want everything local for many reasons.

In my case, I work for a Large Software Company so my scenario is more constrained.

calvinbhai10 anni fa

Most people need 32gb ram for bragging rights. You don't seem to understand why that's a big deal

:)

gizmodo5910 anni fa

Surface (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book...):

128GB/Intel® Core™ i5-8GB- $1,499

With tax the price comes to 1650. (I do realize its touch screen) Is M$FT trying the Apple's path?

iambrillant10 anni fa

Whoa, what happened to the verge? Just scrolling through that page and my browser has downloaded ~100MB!

mcjiggerlog10 anni fa

Damn, you weren't kidding - what the hell?

throw201610 anni fa

I think Apple mostly choose excellent components to build their devices, be it the screens, ssds or cameras. For a buyer getting an iPhone or Macbook is usually the best way to get hold of a well put together and high quality device.

Sure you can get the same quality in other devices but it takes research and most devices of equivalent quality are usually as expensive as Apple devices and sometimes even more.

The Dell XPS, Surface book or HP Spectre are not cheap or without issues. Even equivalently configured Asus Zenbooks with i5 and not core-m are not cheap.

For instance the previous generation 13 retinas were the only laptops with 28W i5 SKUs. The rest of the i5 ultrabooks in the Windows ecosystem were the standard 15W SKUs, so with the Macbook 13 Retina you got slightly better performance and Iris graphics.

The current dissappointment is valid as people rightly expect far more from Apple than boring incremental updates. The magsafe ommission is head scratching and 1299 to 1499 is a huge jump.

I think people are getting disenchanted with paying for 'let's make things thin' brand of engineering that adds little to no value to end users.

chrisfarms10 anni fa

As surprised as I am to say this; I think Google could steal a large chunk of the developer market overnight with some slight changes to Chrome OS.

I needed an emergency machine last week (My 2011 Pro finally died), and I opt'd for a £200 Chromebook (EDGAR), thinking all I need is a browser and a terminal right this second and I'd worry about what Apple is doing later.

A solid Linux laptop with working sleep, working wifi, great battery life. Tad underpowered but hey it's £200. I'm _really_ impressed.

If Google relaxed the constraints a little on the OS, or supported a Crouton-like workflow for containers without having to stick it in dev-mode, they could make A LOT of developers very happy.

mi100hael10 anni fa

I can't recommend Dell's Developer Edition laptops enough. I switched from a MacBook Pro about 6 months ago and haven't run into any of the usual obnoxious Linux-on-a-laptop headaches like sleep or wifi.

http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-lapt...

mercer10 anni fa

I'm leaning toward the XPS but I keep hearing that the trackpad is pretty shitty. Can you confirm/deny that?

mi100hael10 anni fa

It's not as good as the force trackpad on the current MBP, but it's not bad, either. My only real gripe is that the physical click is a little heavy & loud. I'd put it in the same ballpark with prior generations of MBPs that physically clicked. You can always go play with one at a Micro Center or other box store.

eloisant10 anni fa

Don't you get a real, regular Linux distribution when using Crouton?

chrisfarms10 anni fa

You do, and xiwi (X11 in a window) is almost magic in letting me spawn a proper terminal emulator integrated with ChromeOS's window manager (Aura?).

...but it feels like a bit of a hack. I have to have the laptop in dev mode and there's a slight fear that an automatic update might prevent the chroot from working, or that my stateful downloads directory might disappear.

My thought was that ChromeOS is kinda where OS X 10.0 was... a great UI on top of a great base that just works. That's what drove many of us to Apple when we got bored of re-configuring linux, it's what made many of us recommend Apple to friends/family.... Apple have dropped the ball, Google is in a pretty good place to pick it up.

S_A_P10 anni fa

This macbook pro is incompatible with my current set up and will not be purchased, as I had intended to prior to the launch event. I have 4 mag safe power supplies(I travel with one and I keep one at my desk) it was bad enough when you switched from mag safe one to mag safe 2. I use my Macbook pro to run logic and record and mix audio. I have an internal 256gb mini SD card that stores my samples. I will need dongles for my external ssds, my 2000 dollar UAD apollo 8 and several other USB synthesizers and drum machines. I have 8 years of logic projects that Im not intereted in converting to some other format. I dont think that Apple could have fucked over anyone who makes music much harder.

Oh, and that touch strip? too small for anything but emoticons. I went from being semi excited about this macbook to realizing just how mid grade this thing really is. If the next update doesnt put the features I need back in place, this will be the last of my apple purchases. I've owned a mac pro, 4 macbook pros, every iphone save for the 3g. I like that you make them out of nice materials and strive for better. But you are now just making luxury laptops for consumers, not pros.

i_don_t_know10 anni fa

A few days ago there was an article that some Thunderbolt devices don't work with the new machines. A little disconcerting but since I don't have any I don't care.

But I do care about my USB-A devices. I don't mind using an adapter because I only need it at home on my desk. However the description of the Apple USB-C to USB-A adapter says it doesn't work with some devices.

Great. Now what?

[I'm also a little ticked off that they don't include an adapter in the box. Most people will have legacy USB-A devices and should need one.]

CORRECTION: They don't say anything when I add the adapter to one of the new MacBook Pros during the purchase process.

But they do include the caveat when I add the adapter to the 12" MacBook which I've also been looking at (sorry, German page):

" Mit dem USB-C-auf-USB-Adapter kannst du dein MacBook mit USB-C-Anschluss an viele USB-Zubehörgeräte anschließen, z. B. an deine Kamera, einen Flash-Drive oder an ein Lightning auf USB-Kabel, um iPhone, iPad oder iPod aufzuladen und zu synchronisieren.*

*Einige USB-Zubehörgeräte werden nicht unterstützt. "

The last sentence reads: Some USB accessories are not supported.

matthewmacleod10 anni fa

However the description of the Apple USB-C to USB-A adapter says it doesn't work with some devices.

I'd be genuinely surprised by that though. Isn't it just a passive adapter?

i_don_t_know10 anni fa

Correction: They don't say anything when I add the adapter to one of the new MacBook Pros during the purchase process.

But they do include the caveat when I add the adapter to the 12" MacBook which I've also been looking at (sorry, German page):

" Mit dem USB-C-auf-USB-Adapter kannst du dein MacBook mit USB-C-Anschluss an viele USB-Zubehörgeräte anschließen, z. B. an deine Kamera, einen Flash-Drive oder an ein Lightning auf USB-Kabel, um iPhone, iPad oder iPod aufzuladen und zu synchronisieren.*

*Einige USB-Zubehörgeräte werden nicht unterstützt. "

The last sentence reads: Some USB accessories are not supported.

wilsynet10 anni fa

The worst part of the new MacBook Pro is the crappy keyboard. It's not unusable; it's just such a chore to use.

Thank you Apple for making a computer for people who don't need to type very much.

audunw10 anni fa

More of this? Does he really contribute anything new to this discussion?

My impression is that the MBP 2016 is simply released at an unfortunate timing. If you look at the MacRumors buyers guide, you can see that the release schedule for the MBP has historically been less then a year.

If they can get back to that schedule, they should be able to release a MBP with the specs people are nagging about around the time when a suitable Intel Processor with LPDDR4 is available.

As for other common complaints.

- Ergonomics: When has Apple ever had an ergonomic keyboard? If you're working long stretches, connect a proper keyboard and external display for gods sake - GPU: Apple has never pushed the boundaries there. If this hasn't been an issue for pro users before, I'm not sure it should be an issue now. - USB-C only: Typical Apple. Could pay of in a few years though. A world where everything is USB-C is definitely worth pushing for, and it's good that Apple sets an example there. In the meantime I think the 3rd party dongles look quite nice and very convenient. You could potentially have less cable mess by just getting a dongle with just the right ports for you: http://www.macrumors.com/2016/11/01/thunderbolt-3-usb-c-adap... - Lack of Magsafe: Sucks, but OK in the context of pushing for a industry-standard charger for everything. Third party cables can pick up this use-case just fine.

So I think the heart of the matter is that Apple has chosen to optimize the power envelope of the Pro line, which has caused them to have to postpone upgrade of processor/RAM. This might seem stupid, but I think it's the right choice in the long term. I think the way things are going, pro users will offload more work to servers/cloud and external GPUs making the niche for a really powerful laptop too small. I also think Apple is making the right reason in focusing more on SSD performance than RAM size. SSD is becoming the new RAM, and RAM is becoming the new cache. RAM is going to be more tightly bonded to the CPU, even in high performance applications. Especially once Intel 3D-Xpoint/Octane hits the market.

So what we're seeing is a generation shift in the tech, and Apple is simply skating to where the puck is going.

AlexandrB10 anni fa

> - Ergonomics: When has Apple ever had an ergonomic keyboard? If you're working long stretches, connect a proper keyboard and external display for gods sake

The old MacBook Pro keyboards were actually really good. Almost as good as the old (~2005) Thinkpad keyboards and definitely good enough for extended typing. While the ergonomics are obviously suboptimal when screen and keyboard are stuck together at least typing on the keys was pleasant and accurate.

cobralibre10 anni fa

Many people were clinging on to their aging MacBook Pros in the vain hope of seeing a major spec and performance upgrade that simply didn’t materialize, and that's been frustrating.

This statement is worth pausing on. Many users with "pro" needs (developers, video editors, photographers, etc.) replace their computers on a 3-4 year cycle. It's reasonable to expect significant enhancements related to those pro needs at the end of that cycle.

Furthermore — and this is crucial — any new computer has to serve those pro needs for the next 3-4 years.

mercer10 anni fa

I'm one of those people. Thankfully I can still do my work on my MacBook Air for a while yet, but my original plan was to buy a MacBook Pro last year. Now I'm just hoping I can comfortably continue using my MBA and pray that next year they either lower the prices, do something fancy to the specs, or, ideally, release a proper MacBook Pro (fat chance...).

Worst case scenario I'll just buy the Pro they release next year, though. They probably know that there are many like me who would still go for the Pro even in its current incarnation, so I'm not keeping my hopes up that next year will be anything but an incremental update to the current, shitty Pros.