Microsoft to Tie Executive Bonuses to Company Diversity Goals(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
Microsoft to Tie Executive Bonuses to Company Diversity Goals
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-17/microsoft-to-tie-executive-bonuses-to-company-diversity-goals
59 comments
That is already part of their job as managers. So what's next? Getting a bonus for showing up at work? Or maybe getting a bonus for playing less golf? Or perhaps a bonus for interrupt people who do real work with more useless meetings? Actually the last one isn't needed. They already do that. A lot.
The problem isn't at the executive level, it's at the schools.
The expected levels should be set based on what was happening in the education system, not the population in general.
I work at a place where this bullshit is happening and it's clear they're putting barely qualified people based on gender. In the end the company, all its employees, and the people it serves will be harmed.
Instead they should work on getting more diversity in the STEM degrees and fix root cause.
If they truely want it to be fair they should use "blind interviews" voice changers over the phone, written exams, etc... Not bullshit targets and incentives.
The expected levels should be set based on what was happening in the education system, not the population in general.
I work at a place where this bullshit is happening and it's clear they're putting barely qualified people based on gender. In the end the company, all its employees, and the people it serves will be harmed.
Instead they should work on getting more diversity in the STEM degrees and fix root cause.
If they truely want it to be fair they should use "blind interviews" voice changers over the phone, written exams, etc... Not bullshit targets and incentives.
Of course there's a danger to the company in this. "My bonus is tied to my diversity goals. I've tried hard, but I'm way behind and my reporting period is almost up! Quick, bypass the standard screening and qualification checks, and hire a bunch of people in underrepresented groups"
That's true, but any incentive structure at all has similar hazards. (Ever seen the software quality bar lowered in order to meet a deadline?) So long as the company does have standards, and processes it trusts to enforce those standards, it's possible to guard against that failure mode, just as you'd guard against any other employee misbehaviour.
If you do have employees (or execs) bypassing the process or lowering their standards in order to meet short term goals, that in itself is a cultural problem the company would want to address.
Edit: it's worth noting that every manager who has more planned work than they can execute with their current head count already has a short-term incentive to lower their hiring bar and get someone in the door quickly. Managers get measured on executing to plan, so that's probably a stronger incentive than any bonus structure.
So my point isn't that lowering the bar to game the system will never happen, but that it's a failure mode that already occurs and that the system should already have defences against.
If you do have employees (or execs) bypassing the process or lowering their standards in order to meet short term goals, that in itself is a cultural problem the company would want to address.
Edit: it's worth noting that every manager who has more planned work than they can execute with their current head count already has a short-term incentive to lower their hiring bar and get someone in the door quickly. Managers get measured on executing to plan, so that's probably a stronger incentive than any bonus structure.
So my point isn't that lowering the bar to game the system will never happen, but that it's a failure mode that already occurs and that the system should already have defences against.
True, then you get unqualified people who can't meet your other goals.
The point of this bonus is to encourage executives to recruit and hire from non-traditional sources, such as HBCUs.
And this is Microsoft we're talking about here. If they come across two very qualified candidates, they will hire them both. Not one over the other.
The point of this bonus is to encourage executives to recruit and hire from non-traditional sources, such as HBCUs.
And this is Microsoft we're talking about here. If they come across two very qualified candidates, they will hire them both. Not one over the other.
Big chance to poison the well - did you not get the promotion or job because you're not a diversity hire, or was it because the other candidate was better? I've seen Intel do this and animosity increased by a huge amount.
And the reverse - did that person get the job because he/she was the most qualified, or because he/she was in a certain class of people?
(And would also make the person who got that job question themself)
(And would also make the person who got that job question themself)
This is literally just a sorting problem. Diversity quotas imply using a candidate's minority status as part of the sorting key, not the only sorting key. You're still picking a highly qualified candidate, not some random dude off the street. Think about it for five seconds, please :(
As soon as you tie a persons bonus money to it, it isn't. You are no longer looking at the highest quality candidates, but the ones that match the minimal qualities. And since race/gender has no impact on performance (my asumption), this is a bad key.
But, as someone that can check the minority checkbox, woo!
But, as someone that can check the minority checkbox, woo!
Bonuses at a company like Microsoft are typically based on an employee's performance - how well they met their stated goals, etc. Obviously, if a company goal is to have a diverse workforce, whether or not that happens is going to influence the bonuses of the people responsible for it. If this is an unacceptable outcome, you're suggesting that diversity can't be a company goal, period.
Like I've said before, it's a sorting problem - if implementing an algorithm correctly requires sorting some values to the top and some to the middle, you shouldn't get full credit if your implementation doesn't do that.
We're not talking about soviet russia production quotas being exploited here, just about adjusting the way candidates are found and ranked.
Like I've said before, it's a sorting problem - if implementing an algorithm correctly requires sorting some values to the top and some to the middle, you shouldn't get full credit if your implementation doesn't do that.
We're not talking about soviet russia production quotas being exploited here, just about adjusting the way candidates are found and ranked.
Focusing your company on hiring people based on their race and gender, rather than their ability, seems like a horrible idea. Not to mention a great way to open yourself to law suits and massive animosity among your employees.
Not to mention the effect on the person being hired: was I hired because I was the best candidate or because some manager wanted their bonus and had to fill a quota?
Indeed. Or the person who wasn't hired. "Was I rejected because I'm white?". Lawsuits aside, that's a great way to build quite a bit of bitterness toward your company.
> open yourself to law suits
Positive discrimination for minorities is legal.
> animosity among your employees
My wife has seen this, being one of the hires made to fill a quota while working at EA.
Positive discrimination for minorities is legal.
> animosity among your employees
My wife has seen this, being one of the hires made to fill a quota while working at EA.
"Positive discrimination for minorities is legal."
White and asian men (the groups discriminated by this policy) make up about 37% of US population. So in this instance we've already reached the point where 'minority' make up the majority of the population.
White and asian men (the groups discriminated by this policy) make up about 37% of US population. So in this instance we've already reached the point where 'minority' make up the majority of the population.
>My wife has seen this, being one of the hires made to fill a quota while working at EA.
Can you elaborate on this? I'm very curious how far companies go to fill quotas and how much weight is put into race/gender.
Can you elaborate on this? I'm very curious how far companies go to fill quotas and how much weight is put into race/gender.
This is her favorite "token female" story. Basically, for a temp QA position she was given a test to test a short section of a videogame. Her goal was to identify all the bugs she possibly could. When I took the same test, I had identified about 15, and I missed a lot of them. She identified 0. She was hired. She was also given a "most improved" award at the end of the testing cycle, and got a copy of Fifa for the Game Boy Color as her prize.
Put another way, she had no past experience, displayed no aptitude for the position, and she was hired. She was, the manager admitted to her later, also the only woman to apply.
Put another way, she had no past experience, displayed no aptitude for the position, and she was hired. She was, the manager admitted to her later, also the only woman to apply.
Why "rather than their ability"? Are you suggesting that hiring diverse candidates makes it impossible to hire skilled workers? Why would that be so?
When the criteria for a job is aptitude, experience, etc then of course it's ability over diversity.
When diversity is a qualification along with aptitude and experience, people are right to question.
A parallel discussion (and recent litigation) for college admissions is happening as well. Many black people admitted to top schools are only admitted because they are black. The stats show that black people admitted to some top schools need much lower SAT scores, while Asians need much higher (vs whites). This might not be the most polite way to phrase the situation, but it is absolutely true.
When diversity is a qualification along with aptitude and experience, people are right to question.
A parallel discussion (and recent litigation) for college admissions is happening as well. Many black people admitted to top schools are only admitted because they are black. The stats show that black people admitted to some top schools need much lower SAT scores, while Asians need much higher (vs whites). This might not be the most polite way to phrase the situation, but it is absolutely true.
So you're saying the only reason they were admitted is the color of their skin and no other criteria were considered? What are the criteria that are normally used to evaluate a white student that were thrown out for these black students?
Are their grades lower? What about their post-graduation job outcomes? Do they cost the campus more money? How much money do they make the campus by playing on basketball and football teams for the university? What do the on-campus crime and harassment statistics look like if broken down by race and gender - do the diverse students cause more trouble or less?
If you're going to say something like 'they were only admitted because they are black' and then 'absolutely true' I hope you're prepared to back it up, otherwise you just sound racist - and I'm sure that's absolutely not true!
Are their grades lower? What about their post-graduation job outcomes? Do they cost the campus more money? How much money do they make the campus by playing on basketball and football teams for the university? What do the on-campus crime and harassment statistics look like if broken down by race and gender - do the diverse students cause more trouble or less?
If you're going to say something like 'they were only admitted because they are black' and then 'absolutely true' I hope you're prepared to back it up, otherwise you just sound racist - and I'm sure that's absolutely not true!
> So you're saying the only reason they were admitted is the color of their skin and no other criteria were considered? What are the criteria that are normally used to evaluate a white student that were thrown out for these black students?
No, he's saying that they were selected over people who performed better in the interviews and other selection criteria because of the color of their skin/gender/religion/...
Now in some way that's equivalent, in the sense that they would not have been selected if not for their skin color (they would have been third or fifth on the list where the top spot gets hired), but in other ways it's not. It does not mean they don't have any ability at all, for instance. Just less than would be required if they were white males. And I'm sure if executive compensation is tied to this, that there will in fact be cases of no ability at all, but I doubt it will be the common case.
And we all know the methods executives will use to hit their targets while lying about this, for instance to make sure it looks fair, when it isn't. Going in and changing interview reports and scores after the fact to make sure they "didn't select based on skin color", except it'll be blatantly obvious for their colleagues that's exactly what happened. And in fact I bet those other team members will have to work more, harder and ... to compensate for the lower abilities.
No, he's saying that they were selected over people who performed better in the interviews and other selection criteria because of the color of their skin/gender/religion/...
Now in some way that's equivalent, in the sense that they would not have been selected if not for their skin color (they would have been third or fifth on the list where the top spot gets hired), but in other ways it's not. It does not mean they don't have any ability at all, for instance. Just less than would be required if they were white males. And I'm sure if executive compensation is tied to this, that there will in fact be cases of no ability at all, but I doubt it will be the common case.
And we all know the methods executives will use to hit their targets while lying about this, for instance to make sure it looks fair, when it isn't. Going in and changing interview reports and scores after the fact to make sure they "didn't select based on skin color", except it'll be blatantly obvious for their colleagues that's exactly what happened. And in fact I bet those other team members will have to work more, harder and ... to compensate for the lower abilities.
> Why "rather than their ability"?
Because that is literally what the article is about. Unless you're under the impression that they previously hired candidates based on something other than ability, I don't see how else you could read this. Companies typically try to hire the most skilled person they can afford for a position. MS is now incentivizing leaders to favor women and certain racial groups because their previous hiring methods didn't result in the desired number of them being hired.
> Are you suggesting that hiring diverse candidates makes it impossible to hire skilled workers? Why would that be so?
You're intentionally twisting words.
Because that is literally what the article is about. Unless you're under the impression that they previously hired candidates based on something other than ability, I don't see how else you could read this. Companies typically try to hire the most skilled person they can afford for a position. MS is now incentivizing leaders to favor women and certain racial groups because their previous hiring methods didn't result in the desired number of them being hired.
> Are you suggesting that hiring diverse candidates makes it impossible to hire skilled workers? Why would that be so?
You're intentionally twisting words.
Why does including race or gender as a factor in the evaluation of a candidate exclude ability? All hiring is based on a variety of factors, not just 'ability'.
Availability for the position, quantity of experience, leadership skill, willingness to learn, familiarity with the problem space, quality of personal references, interpersonal skills... all that along with 'how good are you at writing code'. What is the huge negative impact of adding 'diversity' to that set of evaluation factors? Are you arguing that adding diversity would actually push the most qualified candidates to the bottom of the pile somehow? If all things are truly equal, adding diversity to the sort has no impact on the ability of qualified candidates to get hired.
Availability for the position, quantity of experience, leadership skill, willingness to learn, familiarity with the problem space, quality of personal references, interpersonal skills... all that along with 'how good are you at writing code'. What is the huge negative impact of adding 'diversity' to that set of evaluation factors? Are you arguing that adding diversity would actually push the most qualified candidates to the bottom of the pile somehow? If all things are truly equal, adding diversity to the sort has no impact on the ability of qualified candidates to get hired.
Reasonable hiring is based on solely upon whether the candidate is both willing and able to fill the role.
All the factors you listed are equivalent to or surrogates of that fundamental requirement. Or, in the case of leadership skill, are excess to requirements unless the role involves leadership.
All races and sexes being equal on average does not mean that all candidates are equal on average. If they were, we wouldn't have interviews.
Almost always, one candidate will be better. Necessary, that candidate will be a member of one race or sex. If any of the other candidates is a member of another race or sex, and that race or sex is one which the hirer is incentivized to hire people for, a less-suitable candidate will be hired if the hirer follows his incentives.
All the factors you listed are equivalent to or surrogates of that fundamental requirement. Or, in the case of leadership skill, are excess to requirements unless the role involves leadership.
All races and sexes being equal on average does not mean that all candidates are equal on average. If they were, we wouldn't have interviews.
Almost always, one candidate will be better. Necessary, that candidate will be a member of one race or sex. If any of the other candidates is a member of another race or sex, and that race or sex is one which the hirer is incentivized to hire people for, a less-suitable candidate will be hired if the hirer follows his incentives.
The hiring pipeline for non-white non-asian non-male developers is significantly smaller than that "other" pipeline. All other things being equal (i.e. percentage of capable candidates to total candidates), this means that it will be demonstrably harder to fill hiring needs using otherwise identical criteria.
So, if you have a quota (or a bonus) of diverse hires needed, you will either end up lowering your standards or spend a lot more money in order to fill the hiring needs.
So, if you have a quota (or a bonus) of diverse hires needed, you will either end up lowering your standards or spend a lot more money in order to fill the hiring needs.
Why is it smaller? Do you have data to support this? How much more money does it take to fill your pool with qualified non-white-non-male candidates? I'm curious whether you are citing any data here or personal experience working in HR or recruiting.
Is the pool smaller because you primarily rely on referrals from your (already not especially diverse) workforce and applications from people off the street? Are you recruiting from universities that are predominantly white, as a result implicitly biasing your available pool of recent college graduates? Are you recruiting only from your local area, subjecting yourself to the local race balance?
If hiring diverse candidates costs more money, that can absolutely still be worth it if hiring diverse candidates provides measurable upsides. Of course, the cost matters - if it's 10x or 100x it's much harder to see a positive return. But dismissing it for being 'too hard' or 'too expensive' without actually doing an evaluation of the pros and cons is a little lazy, isn't it?
Is the pool smaller because you primarily rely on referrals from your (already not especially diverse) workforce and applications from people off the street? Are you recruiting from universities that are predominantly white, as a result implicitly biasing your available pool of recent college graduates? Are you recruiting only from your local area, subjecting yourself to the local race balance?
If hiring diverse candidates costs more money, that can absolutely still be worth it if hiring diverse candidates provides measurable upsides. Of course, the cost matters - if it's 10x or 100x it's much harder to see a positive return. But dismissing it for being 'too hard' or 'too expensive' without actually doing an evaluation of the pros and cons is a little lazy, isn't it?
> Why is it smaller?
Fewer women in the Engineering workforce. Which stems from fewer women in College engineering programs. Which stems from (and I'm firmly in the "IMO" stage here) girls being encouraged to play with dolls and boys with legos.
Of course, engineering isn't the only occupation where there is an obvious gender bias, check out the book publishing industry. 90% white females, last I heard.
> Do you have data to support this?
The college numbers are broadly available, as are the employment records.
> citing any data here or personal experience working in HR or recruiting
Mostly from my attempts to hire someone for a number of positions - every time I get the candidate pool narrowed down to qualified individuals, they are all white males in their late 20's or early 30's. Is there an unconscious bias? Perhaps, but I'm narrowing based on their work experience, not their name, website or talking to them on the phone by this point.
> if hiring diverse candidates provides measurable upsides
It's very hard to quantify the benefit of a diverse work team. You know the benefits when you see them, but putting a dollar amount to it? "We made 20 fewer boneheaded decisions this year, resulting in a savings of $30,000." I'd love to see it, but I doubt I will.
Fewer women in the Engineering workforce. Which stems from fewer women in College engineering programs. Which stems from (and I'm firmly in the "IMO" stage here) girls being encouraged to play with dolls and boys with legos.
Of course, engineering isn't the only occupation where there is an obvious gender bias, check out the book publishing industry. 90% white females, last I heard.
> Do you have data to support this?
The college numbers are broadly available, as are the employment records.
> citing any data here or personal experience working in HR or recruiting
Mostly from my attempts to hire someone for a number of positions - every time I get the candidate pool narrowed down to qualified individuals, they are all white males in their late 20's or early 30's. Is there an unconscious bias? Perhaps, but I'm narrowing based on their work experience, not their name, website or talking to them on the phone by this point.
> if hiring diverse candidates provides measurable upsides
It's very hard to quantify the benefit of a diverse work team. You know the benefits when you see them, but putting a dollar amount to it? "We made 20 fewer boneheaded decisions this year, resulting in a savings of $30,000." I'd love to see it, but I doubt I will.
Can you provide research that shows upside from hiring diverse candidates for the business (aside from benefitting the actual diversity hires)?
Are there examples of business staffed by diverse staff that outperform boring white/asian male companies?
Are there examples of business staffed by diverse staff that outperform boring white/asian male companies?
> Focusing your company on hiring people based on their race and gender, rather than their ability, seems like a horrible idea.
What exactly do you estimate has been happening when your current field of diversity is landlocked at some 90% or more?
Fluke?
What exactly do you estimate has been happening when your current field of diversity is landlocked at some 90% or more?
Fluke?
The hiring pipeline for "diverse" applicants is much smaller than the pipeline for non-diverse applicants. Insinuates that the problem needs to be addressed at a wholly different level.
So, presuming the pipeline is smaller, why does that make it a bad idea to more highly weight diverse candidates? Why can't you expand the pipeline AND hire diverse candidates?
What's the solution to the small pipeline? If there's a well-understood solution, why isn't it fixed yet? This has been a known problem for a while. Is it too expensive?
What's the solution to the small pipeline? If there's a well-understood solution, why isn't it fixed yet? This has been a known problem for a while. Is it too expensive?
> does that make it a bad idea to more highly weight diverse candidates
It doesn't, but you can't weight in favor of candidates which aren't there. If I have 10 positions to fill, 30 qualified white males, and 1 qualified female, is it better to go out and spend more money attracting females, or fill the jobs with the best candidates and move on?
> What's the solution to the small pipeline?
As with my other response to you, I believe it's cultural. You can't force women who are interested in writing novels or nursing to go into engineering. Find where the cultural issues are, accept that you'll never get to a clean split between the races and genders (for any position), and the symptoms of few diverse candidates will clear itself up.
It doesn't, but you can't weight in favor of candidates which aren't there. If I have 10 positions to fill, 30 qualified white males, and 1 qualified female, is it better to go out and spend more money attracting females, or fill the jobs with the best candidates and move on?
> What's the solution to the small pipeline?
As with my other response to you, I believe it's cultural. You can't force women who are interested in writing novels or nursing to go into engineering. Find where the cultural issues are, accept that you'll never get to a clean split between the races and genders (for any position), and the symptoms of few diverse candidates will clear itself up.
Purely focussing on race and gender does seem like a horrible idea. Do you think race and gender should have any role at all in hiring decisions? There's a difference between "focussing" and taking it into account. Can race and gender be proxies for adding additional perspective? First example that comes to mind is, say, if you're looking to expand your market into new demographics.
Edited to add: If you choose to down vote, I'd appreciate a comment as to why in the interest of communication. Given the amount of discussion that still goes on around these topics, it's far from a settled issue. Understanding how others think about them is important to figuring out some kind of agreement or acceptable solution. If the solution is obvious to you, please share, as it's not obvious to me.
Edited to add: If you choose to down vote, I'd appreciate a comment as to why in the interest of communication. Given the amount of discussion that still goes on around these topics, it's far from a settled issue. Understanding how others think about them is important to figuring out some kind of agreement or acceptable solution. If the solution is obvious to you, please share, as it's not obvious to me.
> Do you think race and gender should have any role at all in hiring decisions?
In general, no, unless there is some specific reason why a role needs to consider those qualities, which you alluded to.
> Can race and gender be proxies for adding additional perspective?
I should think so, but at the same time I find it a bit insulting to suggest that they're primary indicators for perspective. For example, a wealthy British black man and a wealthy American white woman have significantly more in common than a poor black man and the same wealthy black man. Using race as primary indicators is actually a bit racist.
In general, no, unless there is some specific reason why a role needs to consider those qualities, which you alluded to.
> Can race and gender be proxies for adding additional perspective?
I should think so, but at the same time I find it a bit insulting to suggest that they're primary indicators for perspective. For example, a wealthy British black man and a wealthy American white woman have significantly more in common than a poor black man and the same wealthy black man. Using race as primary indicators is actually a bit racist.
Thanks for the civil and thoughtful reply. These types of topics can so easily escalate out of control!
Agreed all around. Add to that is how to properly measure how a given employee will work out with for a company. Determining the best measures of ability and that oft-discussed ever-elusive "fit" are not easy tasks for some jobs, and something companies are continually trying to improve.
Hiring for diversity is itself a proxy of sorts, isn't it? I doubt Microsoft is hiring for diversity for diversity's sake. There are inequalities in society as a whole that appear to break to some extent along racial and gender lines. You bring two others with respect to nationality and income or economic class. (I mention all of these without making a moral judgement.) There's a lot of different ideas as to why these inequalities exist.
I'm speculating, but one reason Microsoft may be hiring for diversity is that they see that the demographic make up of their employee base is significantly different from the make up of society as a whole. Is there a merit/ability reason why this should be? If there isn't, should the company take steps to change the disparity?
This gets into questions of the role of the company in society. Does/can/should a company have responsibilities beyond short term profit? Are people good at making decisions that affect the long-term? Do the effects of pure capitalism affect societal change at a rate that maximizes societal good (for some measure) on scales comparable to the average human life? Should we be concerned about these things? Throw up our hands? Try to figure out solutions outside pure meritocracy?
I'm just riffing now in a pretty non-structured way. I'd be happy for others to push against them and see how quickly they fall over. I also recognize that not everybody is interested in these questions. The HN forums are a good place to get exposed to other ideas from different perspectives. I'm pretty sure we're not going to figure all of this out in this thread, but it is good stuff to think about overall.
Agreed all around. Add to that is how to properly measure how a given employee will work out with for a company. Determining the best measures of ability and that oft-discussed ever-elusive "fit" are not easy tasks for some jobs, and something companies are continually trying to improve.
Hiring for diversity is itself a proxy of sorts, isn't it? I doubt Microsoft is hiring for diversity for diversity's sake. There are inequalities in society as a whole that appear to break to some extent along racial and gender lines. You bring two others with respect to nationality and income or economic class. (I mention all of these without making a moral judgement.) There's a lot of different ideas as to why these inequalities exist.
I'm speculating, but one reason Microsoft may be hiring for diversity is that they see that the demographic make up of their employee base is significantly different from the make up of society as a whole. Is there a merit/ability reason why this should be? If there isn't, should the company take steps to change the disparity?
This gets into questions of the role of the company in society. Does/can/should a company have responsibilities beyond short term profit? Are people good at making decisions that affect the long-term? Do the effects of pure capitalism affect societal change at a rate that maximizes societal good (for some measure) on scales comparable to the average human life? Should we be concerned about these things? Throw up our hands? Try to figure out solutions outside pure meritocracy?
I'm just riffing now in a pretty non-structured way. I'd be happy for others to push against them and see how quickly they fall over. I also recognize that not everybody is interested in these questions. The HN forums are a good place to get exposed to other ideas from different perspectives. I'm pretty sure we're not going to figure all of this out in this thread, but it is good stuff to think about overall.
Yeah, studies have in fact shown that this is the case - in certain problem spaces if your team isn't diverse you can fail to find the correct solution to the problem because you have too few different perspectives on it.
i.e. https://hbr.org/2013/12/how-diversity-can-drive-innovation
On the other hand there have definitely been studies showing negative outcomes from diversity programs, so there's an interesting conflict there.
i.e. https://hbr.org/2013/12/how-diversity-can-drive-innovation
On the other hand there have definitely been studies showing negative outcomes from diversity programs, so there's an interesting conflict there.
Thanks for the link. It's also great to see a more nuanced take on a lot of this. Some people do see it in black and white. Sometimes I wish I did, as it would make some things easier. Unfortunately (?), I'm not at that point of certainty yet.
If there was an equally qualified man and woman- choosing the man over the woman because he is a man would be considered sexism. Choosing the woman over the man because she is a woman is considered progress.
Asians are way over represented at Microsoft vs our country. We need to boost the white percentage as well.
To me, race "diversity" is a foolish kind of diversity, because of how shallow it is. I don't think skin color makes you a different person, so I don't really think that more people of different colors in a company makes anything better. And I guess that makes me the bigoted one?
Asians are way over represented at Microsoft vs our country. We need to boost the white percentage as well.
To me, race "diversity" is a foolish kind of diversity, because of how shallow it is. I don't think skin color makes you a different person, so I don't really think that more people of different colors in a company makes anything better. And I guess that makes me the bigoted one?
There is currently a bias of preferring men over women. I think a policy like this can help you be more conscious about the candidates' actual qualification.
Over-representation of a minority race isn't an issue. The goal isn't to have a workforce that matches racial distribution of the whole country; it is to have more diversity.
Over-representation of a minority race isn't an issue. The goal isn't to have a workforce that matches racial distribution of the whole country; it is to have more diversity.
If it's shallow then wouldn't that imply it has no bearing on whether the person is qualified, and the pools of candidates of a certain race or gender are all equally qualified? If so, then why are diversity quotas a problem?
Just because race or gender has no factor in whether a candidate is qualified does not mean that qualified candidates are equally represented among races and/or genders.
Yes, but the GP suggested that weighting based on race or gender is a problem, which implies that qualified candidates are unequally represented. Why would this be so? Is there evidence to support it?
They also suggested that the white percentage needs to be 'boosted', because there are too many asians? Why would that be? What are the correct numbers?
They also suggested that the white percentage needs to be 'boosted', because there are too many asians? Why would that be? What are the correct numbers?
I think it's pretty clear that qualified candidates are not equally represented. There are probably a lot of reasons for this, socioeconomic, educational, etc. But take a look at the SAT scores by race, or chosen academic majors in college. I'm on mobile with bad internet so I can't link to actual figures now.
And my (sarcastic) logic for white percentage boosting is the same as Microsoft's black percentage boosting goal. Asians are significantly over represented at Microsoft (and most of the big tech cos) vs our US population. Microsoft wants to increase the black/Hispanic employee percentage to get more in line with the US distribution. They should also want to do the same with whites, which leaves the Asians set to be decreased significantly.
And my (sarcastic) logic for white percentage boosting is the same as Microsoft's black percentage boosting goal. Asians are significantly over represented at Microsoft (and most of the big tech cos) vs our US population. Microsoft wants to increase the black/Hispanic employee percentage to get more in line with the US distribution. They should also want to do the same with whites, which leaves the Asians set to be decreased significantly.
I see, that makes sense. If you're certain that qualified candidates are not equally represented, are you certain that lowering the asian percentage and raising the white percentage wouldn't lower the overall skill level of the Microsoft workforce? How do you suggest to counteract this effect?
If you have a pool of candidates that are equally qualified and you prefer hiring some one based on their gender, sexual orientation or ethnicity that is discrimination regardless of how you look at it.
When you tie financial incentive you are even more likely to create discrimination since if a candidate is merely qualified but not the most qualified out of a pool you are likely to choose them in order to meet the hiring policy especially if your income is dependant on it.
Lastly I've seen some diversity goals in some companies and sorry but these goals are unrealistic, when women make up 15-18% of the students in computer science, engineering and similar degrees there is absolutly no way to meet a goal of 50%/50% split between men and women as engineers without drastically reducing the diversity in other companies.
If the 30%+ goal for women in MSFT is going to be cross department MSFT would effectively have to poach women from other companies and hire across multiple graduation years which either would leave a larger percentage of male engineers unemployed or make other companies less diverse.
If women were 50% of STEM graduates and we still had an issue of diversity in tech that would be a different story, but currently most large tech companies have a higher percentage of women including in engineering than the national average in their relevant degrees and vocational education.
Women make up less than 20% of most STEM programmes especially those related to computer sciences, women make up less than 20% of most coding bootcamps, so exactly where would these magic diversity quotas are supposed to come from?
When you tie financial incentive you are even more likely to create discrimination since if a candidate is merely qualified but not the most qualified out of a pool you are likely to choose them in order to meet the hiring policy especially if your income is dependant on it.
Lastly I've seen some diversity goals in some companies and sorry but these goals are unrealistic, when women make up 15-18% of the students in computer science, engineering and similar degrees there is absolutly no way to meet a goal of 50%/50% split between men and women as engineers without drastically reducing the diversity in other companies.
If the 30%+ goal for women in MSFT is going to be cross department MSFT would effectively have to poach women from other companies and hire across multiple graduation years which either would leave a larger percentage of male engineers unemployed or make other companies less diverse.
If women were 50% of STEM graduates and we still had an issue of diversity in tech that would be a different story, but currently most large tech companies have a higher percentage of women including in engineering than the national average in their relevant degrees and vocational education.
Women make up less than 20% of most STEM programmes especially those related to computer sciences, women make up less than 20% of most coding bootcamps, so exactly where would these magic diversity quotas are supposed to come from?
Stop with the common sense. This is an issue where logic and facts go out the window when an agenda is at hand.
I want to know is why doesn't Microsoft start up their own coding school or something if this is such a big problem.
I want to know is why doesn't Microsoft start up their own coding school or something if this is such a big problem.
> If there was an equally qualified man and woman- choosing the man over the woman because he is a man would be considered sexism.
Bzzt.
The only folks that believe this rubbish believe that all things are equal. This is false.
The cultural framework and machinations have already greatly tilted the field in favor of the male, and in particular the white male.
So if you believe this suddenly is sexism, you may want to check the current sociological landscape.
Bzzt.
The only folks that believe this rubbish believe that all things are equal. This is false.
The cultural framework and machinations have already greatly tilted the field in favor of the male, and in particular the white male.
So if you believe this suddenly is sexism, you may want to check the current sociological landscape.
What would be fascinating is if one's down voting were coupled with their identified gender and race.
The sociological landscape is irrelevant and employers pandering to liberal nitwits is the height of stupidity.
Frankly I think affirmative action is disgusting and it devalues us all.
Progressive extremism truly is a cancer upon the tech industry (and humanity as a whole) and I hope the Western world gets its collective head out of its behind, no other section of the world buys into this garbage and for good reason -- it's empty gestures that serve only to stave off the wrath of violent SJWs that seek to pervert society with their backwards ideals.
It's a policy borne of fear, fear of being smeared on Twitter and other leftist propaganda outlets. There is no other rationale.
Frankly I think affirmative action is disgusting and it devalues us all.
Progressive extremism truly is a cancer upon the tech industry (and humanity as a whole) and I hope the Western world gets its collective head out of its behind, no other section of the world buys into this garbage and for good reason -- it's empty gestures that serve only to stave off the wrath of violent SJWs that seek to pervert society with their backwards ideals.
It's a policy borne of fear, fear of being smeared on Twitter and other leftist propaganda outlets. There is no other rationale.
So you can dismiss arguments based on the gender and race of those making them?
I work for a fairly large company and they are doing this too (just for gender though). The way I see it you can either have diversity goals or you can be a meritocracy. To be honest Im not 100% sure which is better - I want to say meritocracy but then you have the Enron's that were meant to be the smartest guys in the room. But as a white male I see my career here quite limited due to me not being their preferred demographic.
Isn't it illegal to make pay based on a protected class?
Won't this attach a stigma to those hired (who aren't white/asian male)? It's quite literally a quota.
I have dislike anti-discrimination laws for a while now. For example, one of the methods used to enforce them (particularly in things like hiring) is statistics, most of which assumes employees are interchangeable commodities. Not to mention the problems with "performance" reviews and "PIPs" too. They were designed back in the 1960s for things like manual labor jobs. I am willing to suggest a compromise to limit them to these kinds of jobs.
Satya Nadella was born in India. I am 100% sure this policy is not going to apply to Microsoft's nine offices in India which are 100% one race. If you don't think this is about anything other than using race politics for corporate power, ask why diversity isn't important in Microsoft's other locations.