Postmortem of database outage of January 31(about.gitlab.com)
about.gitlab.com
Postmortem of database outage of January 31
https://about.gitlab.com/2017/02/10/postmortem-of-database-outage-of-january-31/
268 comments
RIP the engineer
Still here, and doing just fine.
I love your tag line here on HN! Some 15 yrs ago I was hired as a UNIX administrator at some larger company. Despite being fresh from school I already had plenty of experience from spending the 90's hacking and programming on whatever UNIX system fyodor or rootshell.com had an exploit for. When the DBA was leaving for vaccation they didn't hesitate in letting me take over his daily routines. On this particular summer day, I had a simple job: dump the production database and load the data into the test environment. I had to make sure the dump was finished before 4pm when the daily production run started (which, FWIW, continued well into the evening). This was an Oracle shop so I believe the commands were mostly "exp" and "imp" -- with the caveat that the imp command would need an additional parameter to select the test database instead of the production one that was the default.
Yeah, you see where this is going. The prod dump finished in time and shortly before leaving work I started importing the data. Then I sat around for a while before I realized I had forgotten about that additional "use the test environment" parameter -- and now I was importing a several hours old dump into the production database while the daily production run was running. I had to call company execs and explain the catastrophe to them, who in turn had to call in the vendor that sold us the system. Those were some pretty scary hours for a 20 yr old kid. Luckily it was just a matter of aborting the production run, reload the prod dump and then reschedule the production run for the day.
The next day I had to start my day at the vendor's place to get some shaming, but also a good piece of advice - "always say destructive things out loud before doing them". Then they continued to tell me stories of people they had worked with who really messed things up, and we all had some good, evil laughs.
Mistakes build experience, and hard learned lessons even more so. You now have a pretty good conversation starter to put on your CV. Personally I'd rather hire someone who was a "removal" specialist over someone who hadn't learned the skill yet. :)
I believe both GitLab and the community in general will come out stronger from this incident. Thank you all for being so transparent about it.
Yeah, you see where this is going. The prod dump finished in time and shortly before leaving work I started importing the data. Then I sat around for a while before I realized I had forgotten about that additional "use the test environment" parameter -- and now I was importing a several hours old dump into the production database while the daily production run was running. I had to call company execs and explain the catastrophe to them, who in turn had to call in the vendor that sold us the system. Those were some pretty scary hours for a 20 yr old kid. Luckily it was just a matter of aborting the production run, reload the prod dump and then reschedule the production run for the day.
The next day I had to start my day at the vendor's place to get some shaming, but also a good piece of advice - "always say destructive things out loud before doing them". Then they continued to tell me stories of people they had worked with who really messed things up, and we all had some good, evil laughs.
Mistakes build experience, and hard learned lessons even more so. You now have a pretty good conversation starter to put on your CV. Personally I'd rather hire someone who was a "removal" specialist over someone who hadn't learned the skill yet. :)
I believe both GitLab and the community in general will come out stronger from this incident. Thank you all for being so transparent about it.
>Personally I'd rather hire someone who was a "removal" specialist over someone who hadn't learned the skill yet.
Oh absolutely. Problem is that gitlab didn't do that. And they will most likely have to learn many more lessons before become reliable.
Oh absolutely. Problem is that gitlab didn't do that. And they will most likely have to learn many more lessons before become reliable.
Probably this fail makes Gitlab more reliable in the future. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.
I enjoy your updated profile.
Actually, I'll be surprised if he hasn't received any offers by now. I would perhaps specifically hire him to deal with databases as I am pretty sure he's never going to make this mistake again.
I haven't received any offers so far. I don't intend on leaving GitLab any time soon either.
I have to say - if they were using a managed relational database service, like Amazon's RDS Postgres, this likely would have never happened. RDS fully automates nightly database snapshots, and ships archive logs to S3 every 5 minutes, which gives you the ability to restore your database to any point in time within the last 35 days, down to the second.
Also, RDS gives you a synchronously replicated standby database, and automates failover, including updating the DNS CNAME that the clients connect to during a failover (so it is seamless to the clients, other than requiring a reconnect), and ensuring that you don't lose a single transaction during a failover (the magic of synchronous replication over a low latency link between datacenters).
For a company like Gitlab, that is public about wanting to exit the cloud, I feel like they could have really benefited from a fully managed relational database service. This entire tragic situation could have never happened if they were willing to acknowledge the obvious: managing relational databases is hard, and allowed someone with better operational automation, like AWS, to do it for them.
Also, RDS gives you a synchronously replicated standby database, and automates failover, including updating the DNS CNAME that the clients connect to during a failover (so it is seamless to the clients, other than requiring a reconnect), and ensuring that you don't lose a single transaction during a failover (the magic of synchronous replication over a low latency link between datacenters).
For a company like Gitlab, that is public about wanting to exit the cloud, I feel like they could have really benefited from a fully managed relational database service. This entire tragic situation could have never happened if they were willing to acknowledge the obvious: managing relational databases is hard, and allowed someone with better operational automation, like AWS, to do it for them.
This is usually true, except when it's not :
I have personally experienced a near-catastrophic situation 3 years ago, where 13 out of 15 days' worth of nightly RDS MySQL snapshots were corrupt and would not restore properly.
The root cause was a silent EBS data corruption bug (RDS is EBS-based), that Amazon support eventually admitted to us had slipped through and affected a "small" number of customers. Unlucky us.
We were given exceptional support including rare access to AWS engineers working on the issue, but at the end of the day, there was no other solution than to attempt restoring each nightly snapshot one after the other, until we hopefully found one that was free of table corruption. The lack of flexibility to do any "creative" problem-solving operations within RDS certainly bogged us down.
With a multi-hundred gigabyte database, the process was nerve-wracking as each restore attempt took hours to perform, and each failure meant saying goodbye to another day's worth of user data, with the looming armageddon scenario that eventually we would reach the end of our snapshots without having found a good one.
Finally, after a couple of days of complete downtime, the second to last snapshot worked (IIRC) and we went back online with almost two weeks of data loss, on a mostly user-generated content site.
We got a shitload of AWS credits for our trouble, but the company obviously went through a very near-death experience, and to this day I still don't 100% trust cloud backups unless we also have a local copy created regularly.
I have personally experienced a near-catastrophic situation 3 years ago, where 13 out of 15 days' worth of nightly RDS MySQL snapshots were corrupt and would not restore properly.
The root cause was a silent EBS data corruption bug (RDS is EBS-based), that Amazon support eventually admitted to us had slipped through and affected a "small" number of customers. Unlucky us.
We were given exceptional support including rare access to AWS engineers working on the issue, but at the end of the day, there was no other solution than to attempt restoring each nightly snapshot one after the other, until we hopefully found one that was free of table corruption. The lack of flexibility to do any "creative" problem-solving operations within RDS certainly bogged us down.
With a multi-hundred gigabyte database, the process was nerve-wracking as each restore attempt took hours to perform, and each failure meant saying goodbye to another day's worth of user data, with the looming armageddon scenario that eventually we would reach the end of our snapshots without having found a good one.
Finally, after a couple of days of complete downtime, the second to last snapshot worked (IIRC) and we went back online with almost two weeks of data loss, on a mostly user-generated content site.
We got a shitload of AWS credits for our trouble, but the company obviously went through a very near-death experience, and to this day I still don't 100% trust cloud backups unless we also have a local copy created regularly.
> We got a shitload of AWS credits for our trouble, but the company obviously went through a very near-death experience, and to this day I don't 100% trust cloud backups unless we also have a local copy created regularly.
Cloud backups, and more generally all backups should be treated like nuclear profliferation treaties: Trust, but verify!
If your periodically restore your backups you'll catch this kind of crap when it's not an issue, rather than when shit had already hit the fan.
Cloud backups, and more generally all backups should be treated like nuclear profliferation treaties: Trust, but verify!
If your periodically restore your backups you'll catch this kind of crap when it's not an issue, rather than when shit had already hit the fan.
Years ago I had my side project server hacked twice. I've been security and backup paranoid ever since.
At my current startup, we have triple backup redundancy for a 500GB pg database:
1/ A postgres streaming replication hot standby server (who at this moment doesn't serve reads, but might in the future)
2/ WAL level streaming backups to aws s3 using WAL-E, which we automatically restore every week to our staging server
3/ Nightly logical pg_dump backups.
9 months ago we only had option 3 and were hit with a database corruption problem. Restoring the logical backup took hours and caused painful downtime as well as the loss of almost a day of user generated content. That's why we added options 1 and 2.
I can't recommend WAL-E enough for an additional backup strategy. Restoring from a wal (binary) backup is ~10x faster in our usecase (YMMV) and the most data you can loose is about 1 minute. As an additional bonus you get the ability to rollback to any point in time. This has helped us to recover user deleted data.
We have a separate Slack #backups channel where our scripts send a message for every succesful backup, along with the backup size (MB's) and duration. This helps everyone to check if backups ran, and if size and duration are increasing in an expected way.
Because we restore our staging on a weekly basis, we have a fully tested restore script, so when a real restore is needed, we have a couple of people who can handle the task with confidence.
I feel like this is about as "safe" as we should be.
At my current startup, we have triple backup redundancy for a 500GB pg database:
1/ A postgres streaming replication hot standby server (who at this moment doesn't serve reads, but might in the future)
2/ WAL level streaming backups to aws s3 using WAL-E, which we automatically restore every week to our staging server
3/ Nightly logical pg_dump backups.
9 months ago we only had option 3 and were hit with a database corruption problem. Restoring the logical backup took hours and caused painful downtime as well as the loss of almost a day of user generated content. That's why we added options 1 and 2.
I can't recommend WAL-E enough for an additional backup strategy. Restoring from a wal (binary) backup is ~10x faster in our usecase (YMMV) and the most data you can loose is about 1 minute. As an additional bonus you get the ability to rollback to any point in time. This has helped us to recover user deleted data.
We have a separate Slack #backups channel where our scripts send a message for every succesful backup, along with the backup size (MB's) and duration. This helps everyone to check if backups ran, and if size and duration are increasing in an expected way.
Because we restore our staging on a weekly basis, we have a fully tested restore script, so when a real restore is needed, we have a couple of people who can handle the task with confidence.
I feel like this is about as "safe" as we should be.
I agree, the backup that isn't used to populate a stage/qa instance right after being taken is untrushworthy.
Even before that there are steps you can take. For example if you take a Postgres backup with pg_dump, you can run pg_restore on it to verify it.
If a database isn't specified, pg_restore will output the SQL commands to restore the database and the exit code will be zero (success) if it makes it through the entire backup. That lets you know that the original dump succeeded and there was no disk error for whatever was written. Save the file to something like S3 as well as the sha256 of it. If the hash matches after you retrieve you can be pretty damn sure that it's a valid backup!
Otherwise you get the blind scripts like GitLab had where pg_dump fails. No exit code checking. No verification. No beuno!
If a database isn't specified, pg_restore will output the SQL commands to restore the database and the exit code will be zero (success) if it makes it through the entire backup. That lets you know that the original dump succeeded and there was no disk error for whatever was written. Save the file to something like S3 as well as the sha256 of it. If the hash matches after you retrieve you can be pretty damn sure that it's a valid backup!
Otherwise you get the blind scripts like GitLab had where pg_dump fails. No exit code checking. No verification. No beuno!
Are there any guidelines on how often you should be doing restore tests?
It probably depends on the criticality of the data, but if you test say every 2 week, you can still fall in the OPs case, right?
At what size/criticality should you have a daily restore test? maybe even a rolling restore test? so you check today's backup, but then check it again every month or something?
It probably depends on the criticality of the data, but if you test say every 2 week, you can still fall in the OPs case, right?
At what size/criticality should you have a daily restore test? maybe even a rolling restore test? so you check today's backup, but then check it again every month or something?
Ideally it should be immediately after a logical backup.
For physical backups (ex: wal archiving), a combination of read replicas that are actively queried against, rebuilt from base backups on a regular schedule, and staging master restores lesa frequent yet still regular schedule, will give you a high level of confidence.
Rechecking old backups isn't necessary if you save the hashes of the backup and can compare they still match.
For physical backups (ex: wal archiving), a combination of read replicas that are actively queried against, rebuilt from base backups on a regular schedule, and staging master restores lesa frequent yet still regular schedule, will give you a high level of confidence.
Rechecking old backups isn't necessary if you save the hashes of the backup and can compare they still match.
Not immediately (imo); you should push the backup to wherever it's being stored. Then your db test script is the same as your db restore script: both start by downloading the most recent backup. The things you'll catch here are, eg, the process that uploads the dump to s3 deciding to time out after uploading for an hour, NOT fail, silently truncate, and instead exit with 0!
Wow, I'm sorry you experienced that. This points to the importance of regularly testing your backups. I hope AWS will offer an automated testing capability at some point in the future.
In the meantime, I hope you've developed automation to test your backups regularly. You could just launch a new RDS instance from the latest nightly snapshot, and run a few test transactions against it.
In the meantime, I hope you've developed automation to test your backups regularly. You could just launch a new RDS instance from the latest nightly snapshot, and run a few test transactions against it.
This is certainly true of all backups to an extent though not just the cloud. Back in the day of backing up to external tape storage it was important to test restores in case heads weren't calibrated or were calibrated differently between different tape machines etc.
I am curious did you manage to automate an restore smoke test after going through this?
I am curious did you manage to automate an restore smoke test after going through this?
Snapshots are not backups, although many people use them as backups and believe they are good backups. Snapshots are snapshots. Only backups are backups.
What is the difference exactly?
A snapshot could be a backup depending on what you're calling a snapshot, but yeah, in general, to be a backup things need to have these features:
1. stored on separate infrastructure so that obliteration of the primary infrastructure (AWS account locked out for non-payment, password gets stolen and everything gets deleted, datacenter gets eaten by a sinkhole, etc.) doesn't destroy the data.
2. offline, read-only. This is where most people get confused.
Backups are unequivocally NOT a live mirror like RAID 1, slightly-delayed replication setup like most databases provide, or a double-write system. These aren't backups because they make it impossible to recover from human errors, which include obvious things like dropping the wrong table, but also less obvious things, like a subtle bug that corrupts/damages some records and may take days or weeks to notice. Your standbys/mirrors are going to copy both of obvious and non-obvious things before you have a chance to stop them.
This is one of the most important things to remember. Redundancy is not backup. Redundancy is redundancy and it primarily protects against hardware and network failures. It's not a backup because it doesn't protect against human or software error.
3. regularly verified by real-world restoration cases; backups can't be trusted until they're confirmed, at least on a recurring, periodic basis. Automated alarms and monitoring should be used to validate that the backup file is present and that it is within a reasonable size variance between human-supervised verifications. Automatic logical checksums like those suggested by some other users in this thread (e.g., run pg_restore on a pg_dump to make sure that the file can be read through) are great too and should be used whenever available.
4. complete, consistent, and self-contained archive up to the timestamp of the backup. Differenced backups count as long as the full chain needed for a restoration is present.
This excludes COW filesystem snapshots, etc., because they're generally dependent on many internal objects dispersed throughout the filesystem; if your FS gets corrupted, it's very likely that some of the data referenced by your snapshots will be corrupted too (snapshots are only possible because COW semantics mean that the data does not have to be copied, just flagged as in use in multiple locations). If you can export the COW FS snapshot as a whole, self-contained unit that can live separately and produce a full and valid restoration of the filesystem, then that exported thing may be a backup, but the internal filesystem-local snapshot isn't (see also point 1).
1. stored on separate infrastructure so that obliteration of the primary infrastructure (AWS account locked out for non-payment, password gets stolen and everything gets deleted, datacenter gets eaten by a sinkhole, etc.) doesn't destroy the data.
2. offline, read-only. This is where most people get confused.
Backups are unequivocally NOT a live mirror like RAID 1, slightly-delayed replication setup like most databases provide, or a double-write system. These aren't backups because they make it impossible to recover from human errors, which include obvious things like dropping the wrong table, but also less obvious things, like a subtle bug that corrupts/damages some records and may take days or weeks to notice. Your standbys/mirrors are going to copy both of obvious and non-obvious things before you have a chance to stop them.
This is one of the most important things to remember. Redundancy is not backup. Redundancy is redundancy and it primarily protects against hardware and network failures. It's not a backup because it doesn't protect against human or software error.
3. regularly verified by real-world restoration cases; backups can't be trusted until they're confirmed, at least on a recurring, periodic basis. Automated alarms and monitoring should be used to validate that the backup file is present and that it is within a reasonable size variance between human-supervised verifications. Automatic logical checksums like those suggested by some other users in this thread (e.g., run pg_restore on a pg_dump to make sure that the file can be read through) are great too and should be used whenever available.
4. complete, consistent, and self-contained archive up to the timestamp of the backup. Differenced backups count as long as the full chain needed for a restoration is present.
This excludes COW filesystem snapshots, etc., because they're generally dependent on many internal objects dispersed throughout the filesystem; if your FS gets corrupted, it's very likely that some of the data referenced by your snapshots will be corrupted too (snapshots are only possible because COW semantics mean that the data does not have to be copied, just flagged as in use in multiple locations). If you can export the COW FS snapshot as a whole, self-contained unit that can live separately and produce a full and valid restoration of the filesystem, then that exported thing may be a backup, but the internal filesystem-local snapshot isn't (see also point 1).
Backups protect against bugs and operator errors and belong on a separate storage stack to avoid all correlation, ideally on a separate system (software bugs) with different hardware (firmware and hardware bugs), in a different location.
The purpose of a backup is to avoid data loss in scenarios included in your risk analysis. For example, your storage system could corrupt data, or an engineer could forget a WHERE clause in a delete, or a large falling object hits your data center.
Snapshots will help you against human error, so they are one kind of backup (and often very useful), but if you do not at least replicate those snapshots somewhere else, you are still vulnerable to data corruption bugs or hardware failures in the original system. Design your backup strategy to meet your requirements for risk mitigation.
Snapshots will help you against human error, so they are one kind of backup (and often very useful), but if you do not at least replicate those snapshots somewhere else, you are still vulnerable to data corruption bugs or hardware failures in the original system. Design your backup strategy to meet your requirements for risk mitigation.
I'd also add not just different location but different account.
If your cloud account, datacenter/Colo or office is terminated, hacked, burned down, or swallowed by a sink hole.. You don't want your backups going with it.
Cloud especially: even if you're on aws and have your backups on Glacier+s3 with replication to 7 datacenters in 3 continents... If your account goes away, so do your backups (or at least your access to them).
If your cloud account, datacenter/Colo or office is terminated, hacked, burned down, or swallowed by a sink hole.. You don't want your backups going with it.
Cloud especially: even if you're on aws and have your backups on Glacier+s3 with replication to 7 datacenters in 3 continents... If your account goes away, so do your backups (or at least your access to them).
RDS snapshots are backups. They are copied to S3 storage, which is replicated across 3 datacenters within a region.
RDS, or any hosted database solution, is not some kind of silver bullet that solves all problems. While it's true it takes care of backups automatically, it does also restrict you in terms of what you can do.
For example, you can't load custom extensions into RDS. Also, to the best of my knowledge RDS does not support a hot standby replica you can use for read-only queries, and replication between RDS and non RDS is also not supported. This means you can't balance load between multiple hosts, unless you're OK with running a multi-master setup (of which I'm not sure how well this would play out on RDS).
Most important of all, we ship PostgreSQL as part of our Omnibus package. As a result the best way of testing this over time is to use it ourselves, something we strive to do with everything we sihp. This means we need to actually run our own things. Using a hosted database would mean we wouldn't be using a part of what we ship, thus not being able to test it over time.
For example, you can't load custom extensions into RDS. Also, to the best of my knowledge RDS does not support a hot standby replica you can use for read-only queries, and replication between RDS and non RDS is also not supported. This means you can't balance load between multiple hosts, unless you're OK with running a multi-master setup (of which I'm not sure how well this would play out on RDS).
Most important of all, we ship PostgreSQL as part of our Omnibus package. As a result the best way of testing this over time is to use it ourselves, something we strive to do with everything we sihp. This means we need to actually run our own things. Using a hosted database would mean we wouldn't be using a part of what we ship, thus not being able to test it over time.
> Also, to the best of my knowledge RDS does not support a hot standby replica you can use for read-only queries
RDS has very nice Read Replicas.
http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonRDS/latest/UserGuide/USER_R...
For HA you can use High Availability (Multi-AZ).
http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonRDS/latest/UserGuide/Concep...
RDS has very nice Read Replicas.
http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonRDS/latest/UserGuide/USER_R...
For HA you can use High Availability (Multi-AZ).
http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonRDS/latest/UserGuide/Concep...
But to be fair if you enable both you're paying for 3 servers total instead of 2, you can't read from the HA standby. (I'd imagine there are reasons not to do that anyway, but you don't even have the option of making that compromise to save on the cost)
With RDS Aurora, any of your read replicas can be promoted to read/write master in the event of a failure of your primary master. This happens in 10-15 seconds, and is very fast.
So, you can get the benefit of up to 15 read replicas, and not have to pay for an extra standby server that is sitting idle.
So, you can get the benefit of up to 15 read replicas, and not have to pay for an extra standby server that is sitting idle.
Well, you can use the Read Replica only, and if you have an outage on the primary, promote the Read Replica to recover... (will take a few minutes though.)
In general though-- TANSTAAFL
In general though-- TANSTAAFL
Aha, I probably overlooked read replicas (haven't used RDS in about 1.5 years).
[deleted]
That said, it did take AWS a disturbingly long time to add support for Postgres read replicas.
Why disturbingly long? As opposed to frustratingly long? Or something else? What does the time it took Amazon to add such support imply to you?
You're welcome to read frustratingly. I didn't think hard about the word choice.
I suppose disturbingly is meant to imply "It was frustrating to me, and I think it would be frustrating to anyone in the situation of seriously using Postgres on RDS[1], and perhaps it ought to even decrease their opinion of the RDS team's ability to prioritize and ship features that are production-ready".
Does that make sense?
[1]: There was no workaround for getting a read replica. RDS doesn't allow you to run replication commands. So your options were "Don't use Postgres on RDS, or don't run queries against up-to-date copies of databases." There was never any announcement of when read replicas were coming. It was arguably irresponsible of them to release Postgres on RDS as a product and then wait a year to support read replicas, which is a core feature that other DB backends had already.
I suppose disturbingly is meant to imply "It was frustrating to me, and I think it would be frustrating to anyone in the situation of seriously using Postgres on RDS[1], and perhaps it ought to even decrease their opinion of the RDS team's ability to prioritize and ship features that are production-ready".
Does that make sense?
[1]: There was no workaround for getting a read replica. RDS doesn't allow you to run replication commands. So your options were "Don't use Postgres on RDS, or don't run queries against up-to-date copies of databases." There was never any announcement of when read replicas were coming. It was arguably irresponsible of them to release Postgres on RDS as a product and then wait a year to support read replicas, which is a core feature that other DB backends had already.
Without insight into what the AWS RDS team workload and priorities are, I think it's unfair to use a term like disturbingly. Sure, as a user, we want features to be rolled out as quickly as possible. From what I've seen, Postgres RDS support has been slow, but consistently getting better: nothing to warrant suggesting Amazon isn't serious about continuing to improve their Postgres offering. That would be disturbing. Or data loss failures. Slower-than-I'd-like roll-out of new features? Frustrating.
By all means, RDS isn't perfect. It doesn't suit my current needs. But I understand that getting these things to work in a managed way that suits the needs of most customers is not an easy task. I'll remain frustrated in some small way until RDS does suit my needs. I hope they continue to add features to give customers more flexibility. And from what I've seen, they likely will.
By all means, RDS isn't perfect. It doesn't suit my current needs. But I understand that getting these things to work in a managed way that suits the needs of most customers is not an easy task. I'll remain frustrated in some small way until RDS does suit my needs. I hope they continue to add features to give customers more flexibility. And from what I've seen, they likely will.
[deleted]
>> RDS does not support a hot standby replica you can use for read-only queries
This is not true anymore.
I set up two read-only RDS replicas, one in a different AWS region, and another in the same region, for read-only queries, just by clicking in AWS console.
This is not true anymore.
I set up two read-only RDS replicas, one in a different AWS region, and another in the same region, for read-only queries, just by clicking in AWS console.
[deleted]
You can use the failover standby replica for reads with Aurora at least. And you can manually via MySQL set up replication with non RDS, just not via AWS APIs.
RDS also comes with its own set of tradeoffs. There is no free lunch, and the cloud is just another word for someone else's server. There are reasons Gitlab opposes that.
In the meantime solution architects and sales people from AWS are going to run around with annotated copies of this public post-mortem to enterprises and say "look, RDS would have solved x,y,z and we can do that for you if you pay us"
:)
:)
[deleted]
>> the cloud is just another word for someone else's server.
No. The cloud (AWS, GCE, Azure etc) is not "just" like your own server.
Just consider some basic details - you pay someone else to worry about things like power outages, disk failures, network issues, other hardware failures, and so on.
No. The cloud (AWS, GCE, Azure etc) is not "just" like your own server.
Just consider some basic details - you pay someone else to worry about things like power outages, disk failures, network issues, other hardware failures, and so on.
I think that's a little pedantic. The point he was making is that, conceptually speaking, the cloud is comprised of servers not unlike the servers you run yourself. The difference, obviously, is who runs them, the manner in which they're run, the exact manner in which they're utilized by you, etc., but they are still just servers at the bottom of the stack.
"The point he was making is that, conceptually speaking, the cloud is comprised of servers"
But... that "point" is trivial.
Did anyone ever claim that cloud servers are made of magic pixie dust? No.
The real "point" is that, cloud = hardware + service, with service > 0.
As the OP describes, GitLab tries to do their own service (because service is expensive... it is), and they find out, the hard way, that the "service" part is not easy at all.
Amazon & Microsoft & Google run millions of servers each, so they can afford to hire really good people, and establish really good procedures, and so on.
That, I think, is a better point
But... that "point" is trivial.
Did anyone ever claim that cloud servers are made of magic pixie dust? No.
The real "point" is that, cloud = hardware + service, with service > 0.
As the OP describes, GitLab tries to do their own service (because service is expensive... it is), and they find out, the hard way, that the "service" part is not easy at all.
Amazon & Microsoft & Google run millions of servers each, so they can afford to hire really good people, and establish really good procedures, and so on.
That, I think, is a better point
You are completely right. There are reasons to oppose the cloud, but maybe they should focus on improving their systems before moving out of the cloud. At this point in time it is clear that GitLab lacks the talent to run everything themselves. I mean 5 backups worthless or lost? You can't let interns write your backups system. After all backup is a large portion of their product.
The worst part of the whole episode, even worse than 'deleted the active database by accident', was '(backups) were no one's responsibility'. This is not an oversight by an individual engineer, but an aspect of the management and company culture. It shows they lack processes derived from requirements. Lots on introspection required from gitlab at this point.
Yes. This should be treated as a serious management failure. Blame does not lie with the individual who made a simple mistake; it lies with the supervisory structure that allowed simple mistakes such as this to result in major data loss (and, as discussed in yesterday's thread [0], has made a series of other serious strategic mistakes that have likely caused them to end up with such inadequate internal hierarchies).
Something like this is not a mere oversight on the part of technical leadership; it's either negligence or incompetence. Whoever is responsible for GitLab's server infrastructure should be having very serious thoughts right now.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13607890
Something like this is not a mere oversight on the part of technical leadership; it's either negligence or incompetence. Whoever is responsible for GitLab's server infrastructure should be having very serious thoughts right now.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13607890
That's why I was critical of the other article on HN recently that evangelized their remote work.
This has nothing to do with remote work, it has to do with having dedicated devops people on staff.
Smaller companies that do not have enough senior/good technical guys that they can afford for whatever reason they have... benefit greatly from the cloud. 1 master, no read partitions, weird backup policies and the saviour of the day is some engineers lucky manual snapshot. That sucks. It's better people start with cloud and manage when they are really confident.
It's worth noting that compared to a good number of recent ish startups, GitLab now has (I believe) more than 160 or so employees. Someone could've owned a recurring task to work on backup processes (and I imagine, now, someone (or likely multiple people)).
This likely would have never happened, if one of their one hundred and sixty employees, just took the time to make sure backups were setup at all. You also need to be a sufficiently large enough organization to warrant the prices that the "cloud" services demand. As stated below, cloud computing is just someone else's server somewhere, and they are making lots of money doing it. Unless you need that level of scalability, and processing, then it's not worth it. I think Gitlab stated their entire PostgreSQL database was only a few hundred gigabytes. That's not exactly huge.
"As stated below, cloud computing is just someone else's server somewhere. Unless you need that level of scalability, and processing, then it's not worth it."
I keep seeing people throw this around as if it's God's truth and it frustrates the hell out of me. It may be the case for your organization but everywhere I have worked (from startups to Fortune 500) the cloud allowed our engineers to focus on our product rather than infrastructure maintenance and contributed massively to our success.
I keep seeing people throw this around as if it's God's truth and it frustrates the hell out of me. It may be the case for your organization but everywhere I have worked (from startups to Fortune 500) the cloud allowed our engineers to focus on our product rather than infrastructure maintenance and contributed massively to our success.
The cloud provides convenience, which absolutely does have [some] value. That value usually does not approach the actual cost incurred for companies of a reasonable size (including, IMO, GitLab), but it does exist and it means that everyone should be able to find a smattering of uses for cloud.
The issue I think is that so many people just go balls-to-the-wall 1000% AWS and consider it a done deal, which is terrible, and then go around and telling everyone else they should do the same thing, which is also terrible.
The fact is that you can't just lay the responsibility for all of this in Amazon's lap. We'd be even less impressed if GitLab's excuse was "Yeah, we had the Amazon nightly snapshots enabled, so we only lost 19 hours of data" (whoever coincidentally took the backup 6 hours before the incident should get enough of a bonus to make his GitLab salary market-competitive!).
Amazon does start you out with some OK-ish defaults, which is better than allowing someone with 4 days of experience to set everything up, but ultimately that's not going to mean much in unskilled hands.
When it comes down to it, every company still need someone internal to take responsibility for their infrastructure; that means backups, security, permissions, performance, hardware, and yes, cost. If your company already has someone with those responsibilities, giving that person $500k to hire a few hardware jockeys is going to be much better than giving Amazon $3M to be the sole host for all of your infrastructure. If your company doesn't have anyone with these responsibilities, it needs to get on the stick, as GitLab has clearly demonstrated to us this month.
The issue I think is that so many people just go balls-to-the-wall 1000% AWS and consider it a done deal, which is terrible, and then go around and telling everyone else they should do the same thing, which is also terrible.
The fact is that you can't just lay the responsibility for all of this in Amazon's lap. We'd be even less impressed if GitLab's excuse was "Yeah, we had the Amazon nightly snapshots enabled, so we only lost 19 hours of data" (whoever coincidentally took the backup 6 hours before the incident should get enough of a bonus to make his GitLab salary market-competitive!).
Amazon does start you out with some OK-ish defaults, which is better than allowing someone with 4 days of experience to set everything up, but ultimately that's not going to mean much in unskilled hands.
When it comes down to it, every company still need someone internal to take responsibility for their infrastructure; that means backups, security, permissions, performance, hardware, and yes, cost. If your company already has someone with those responsibilities, giving that person $500k to hire a few hardware jockeys is going to be much better than giving Amazon $3M to be the sole host for all of your infrastructure. If your company doesn't have anyone with these responsibilities, it needs to get on the stick, as GitLab has clearly demonstrated to us this month.
RDS PostgreSQL is like the Hotel California, you can check in any time you want, but you can never leave. Maybe it is OK as a simple data store for a single app, but not for a real database. I gained a lot of my knowledge of PostgreSQL internals by helping my company get off of RDS and onto a dedicated EC2 instance solution. RDS imposes too many limitations.
Also, your snapshot backup solution is trivial to implement on EC2 or anywhere else for that matter. But it is not easy to do it right in some scenarios. Read https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.6/static/backup-file.html for details. LVM or ZFS are likely needed under the db layer.
Also, your snapshot backup solution is trivial to implement on EC2 or anywhere else for that matter. But it is not easy to do it right in some scenarios. Read https://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.6/static/backup-file.html for details. LVM or ZFS are likely needed under the db layer.
"Maybe it is OK as a simple data store for a single app, but not for a real database."
Currently working at company number 2 with large (many terabytes) databases on RDS and can safely say this is horse shit.
The amount of time and energy it allows our engineers to spend on our actual products instead of database management is worth all of the extra cost and lock in and then some.
Edit: I just realized that you were talking about Postgres on RDS in particular. I don't have experience with Postgres so you may well be right.
Currently working at company number 2 with large (many terabytes) databases on RDS and can safely say this is horse shit.
The amount of time and energy it allows our engineers to spend on our actual products instead of database management is worth all of the extra cost and lock in and then some.
Edit: I just realized that you were talking about Postgres on RDS in particular. I don't have experience with Postgres so you may well be right.
I'm interested in
a. How many hours would you guess you are saving a month?
b. What takes by a factor of 10 less time on RDS than doing it by hand? What task sees the largest time saved?
Because I always wonder when reading this, what am I missing? What haven't we done? Were we lucky? We were running MySQL and Postgres for multi hundred million EUR companies with millions of users and we did not spend a lot of effort into managing them.
a. How many hours would you guess you are saving a month?
b. What takes by a factor of 10 less time on RDS than doing it by hand? What task sees the largest time saved?
Because I always wonder when reading this, what am I missing? What haven't we done? Were we lucky? We were running MySQL and Postgres for multi hundred million EUR companies with millions of users and we did not spend a lot of effort into managing them.
1. Zero effort backups.
2. Zero effort re-deployment from backups.
3. Almost zero effort encryption at rest.
4. Zero effort hot backups, automatic fail-overs, and multiple datacenter deployments
5. Low effort migrations of massive amounts of data between DBs when someone inevitably wants to refactor something
6. Zero effort logging and log aggregation
7. Almost zero effort alerting of issues via sms/email/other
I could go on but I'm on my way to work...
When you're paying engineers north of 150K all of this adds up, and I'd much rather throw the money at Amazon to handle this and pay the engineers to focus on our actual product.
2. Zero effort re-deployment from backups.
3. Almost zero effort encryption at rest.
4. Zero effort hot backups, automatic fail-overs, and multiple datacenter deployments
5. Low effort migrations of massive amounts of data between DBs when someone inevitably wants to refactor something
6. Zero effort logging and log aggregation
7. Almost zero effort alerting of issues via sms/email/other
I could go on but I'm on my way to work...
When you're paying engineers north of 150K all of this adds up, and I'd much rather throw the money at Amazon to handle this and pay the engineers to focus on our actual product.
We're in the business of PostgreSQL support, and some of our customers use RDS for various reasons. Not having to care about the deployment is one of the usual goals of using a managed environment, but considering they subsequently go and buy support from a third party might be a sign of something.
Of course, my view is biased because we only hear about the issues - there might be a 100x more people using RDS without any issues, and we never hear about them.
In general, the pattern we see is that people start using RDS, and they're fairly happy because it allows them to build their product and RDS more or less works. Then they grow a bit over time, and something breaks.
Which brings me to two main RDS issues that we run into - lack of insight, and difficulty when migrating from RDS with minimum downtime. Once in a while we run into an issue where we wish we could connect over SSH and get some data from the OS, attach gdb to the backend, or something like that. Or using auto_explain. Not even mentioning custom C extensions that we use from time to time ...
Of course, my view is biased because we only hear about the issues - there might be a 100x more people using RDS without any issues, and we never hear about them.
In general, the pattern we see is that people start using RDS, and they're fairly happy because it allows them to build their product and RDS more or less works. Then they grow a bit over time, and something breaks.
Which brings me to two main RDS issues that we run into - lack of insight, and difficulty when migrating from RDS with minimum downtime. Once in a while we run into an issue where we wish we could connect over SSH and get some data from the OS, attach gdb to the backend, or something like that. Or using auto_explain. Not even mentioning custom C extensions that we use from time to time ...
"and difficulty when migrating from RDS with minimum downtime"
They're simply uninformed then. AWS database migration service makes zero downtime migrations trivial between just about any major databases (mysql, oracle, postgres, aurora, sqlserver, etc.)
They're simply uninformed then. AWS database migration service makes zero downtime migrations trivial between just about any major databases (mysql, oracle, postgres, aurora, sqlserver, etc.)
Could you describe the limitations you encounter in the RDS PSQL setup vs a self-managed?
Funny you should mention a managed relational database service; Instapaper uses one of those and had more than 12 hours of downtime this week: http://blog.instapaper.com/post/157027537441
No database solution is totally reliable. If storing data is my primary job, like it is GitLab's, I'd like to have as much control of it as possible.
No database solution is totally reliable. If storing data is my primary job, like it is GitLab's, I'd like to have as much control of it as possible.
Let's just say that Instapaper's outage was self-inflicted. You don't see them blaming their cloud provider, do you? People make mistakes, and even with a managed relational database service, you can still make mistakes.
The difference is that Instapaper was able to restore from backups, because their managed service performed them properly. The archive data is taking longer to restore, but that's due to design decisions Instapaper made.
The difference is that Instapaper was able to restore from backups, because their managed service performed them properly. The archive data is taking longer to restore, but that's due to design decisions Instapaper made.
I'm typing off the top of my head, but didn't they have like 400GB of database? That would probably take 27 hours to get fully available via S3 at 32,000/kbps which is about what s3 will provide for first time hits in my experience.
RDS can restore a point-in-time snapshot in a couple of hours on databases over 1TB (speaking from experience)
RDS has severe performance limitations as in you can't provision more than 30K IOPS which is about 1/2 the performance of low end consumer SSD and about 1/20 the performance of a decent PCI-E SSD. You way better of running on decent dedicated hardware for the DB.
You can get 500K random reads per second and 100K random writes per second using RDS Aurora.
If you truly need more than 30K IOPs, I would recommend leveraging read-replicas, a Redis cache, and other solutions before just "throwing money at the problem" and purchasing a million IOPs.
If you truly need more than 30K IOPs, I would recommend leveraging read-replicas, a Redis cache, and other solutions before just "throwing money at the problem" and purchasing a million IOPs.
how is buying a quality hardware component for a few K throwing "money at the problem" vs paying thousands a month for a very subpar product?
You can't just buy a single enterprise-grade NVMe SSD and call it a day. Are you planning on buying enough to populate at least 2-3 servers with multiple devices, then setting up some type of synchronous replication across them? What type of software layer are you going to use to provide high availability for your data? DRBD? How are you going to manage all of the different failure modes (failed SSD, network partition, split brain, etc.)? How are you going to test it?
I'm afraid you are seriously underestimating the operational capabilities required to successfully operate a highly-available, distributed, SSD storage layer.
I'm afraid you are seriously underestimating the operational capabilities required to successfully operate a highly-available, distributed, SSD storage layer.
Nope but if I pay a few K for a service I expect it to scale to perfomance at least comparable to a very low end device. Why would I use DRBD in a Postgres cluster? I am not underestimating anything I am simply pointing out that RDS is overpriced and crappy service. A proper setup & operation of a postgres cluster is manageable task. What you totally can not manage on AWS is the risks of having single tenant that is using 30% of resources or having lengthy multi AZ outages due to bugs in extremely complex control layer etc.
I will add my inputs on RDS. I gave this comment on the GitLab incident thread. I actually managed to delete an RDS cloudformation stack by accident. The night before I pushed an update to Cloudformation to convert storage class to provisioned IOPS. Next morning I woke up really early, drove my girlfriend to work. While waiting in the car I wanted to check the status of the update so I went on AWS mobile app to check. Mind you I have iPhone 7, but the app was very slow and laggy. As I was scrolling down to find out the failure. But there was a lag between the screen render and my click. Damn. I clicked on delete. Yeah, fucking delete. No confirmation. It went through. No stop button.
There was no backup because the cfn template I built at the time did not have the flag that said take a final snapshot. If you do not take the final snapshot (via console, api, cfn) you are doomed: all the auto snapshots taken by AWS are deleted upon the removal of the RDS instance.
This was our staging db for one of our active projects which I and the dev team spent about a month working to get to staging and was under UAT. Fuck. I told my manager and he understood the impact so he just let me get started on rebuilding. The next morning I got the DB up and running since luckily I compiled my runbook when I first deployed it yo staging. But it was not fun because the data is synced via AWS DMS from our on premise Oracle db so I needed to get sign off from a number of departments.
So I learned my first lesson with RDS - make sure final snapshot flag is enabled (for EC2 user, please remind yourself anything stored on ephemeral storage are going to be loss upon a hard VM stop/start operation, so backup!!!).
I also learned that RDS is not truly HA in the case of upgrading servers, both minor and major upgrade. I've tested major upgrade and saw DB connection unavailable up to 10 min. In some minor version upgrades both primary and secondary had to be taken down.
Other small caveats such as auto minor version upgrade, maintenance windows, retention for automated snapshot are only up to 35 days, event logs in RDS console doesn't last for more than a day, converting to provisioned IOPS can be expensive are just some small annoyance or ugh kind of things I would encourage folks to pay close attention to. Oh yeah, also manual snapshots have to be managed by yourself, kind of obvious but there is no life cycle policy... building a read replica can take up to a day in my first attempt of ever creating a read replica.
Of course now I learned these lessons so we have auto and manual snapshots and a better schedule. I encourage you take the ownership of the upgrade even for minor version so you know how to design your applications to be better at fault tolerance.....in the end hing I liked RDS the most is the extensive free CW metrics available. I also recommended people not to use the mobile app and if you do, setup a read-only role / IAM user. The app is way too primitive and laggy. I still enjoy using RDS, the service is stable and quick to use, but just make sure you have the habit of backuping and take serious ownership and responsibility of the database.
There was no backup because the cfn template I built at the time did not have the flag that said take a final snapshot. If you do not take the final snapshot (via console, api, cfn) you are doomed: all the auto snapshots taken by AWS are deleted upon the removal of the RDS instance.
This was our staging db for one of our active projects which I and the dev team spent about a month working to get to staging and was under UAT. Fuck. I told my manager and he understood the impact so he just let me get started on rebuilding. The next morning I got the DB up and running since luckily I compiled my runbook when I first deployed it yo staging. But it was not fun because the data is synced via AWS DMS from our on premise Oracle db so I needed to get sign off from a number of departments.
So I learned my first lesson with RDS - make sure final snapshot flag is enabled (for EC2 user, please remind yourself anything stored on ephemeral storage are going to be loss upon a hard VM stop/start operation, so backup!!!).
I also learned that RDS is not truly HA in the case of upgrading servers, both minor and major upgrade. I've tested major upgrade and saw DB connection unavailable up to 10 min. In some minor version upgrades both primary and secondary had to be taken down.
Other small caveats such as auto minor version upgrade, maintenance windows, retention for automated snapshot are only up to 35 days, event logs in RDS console doesn't last for more than a day, converting to provisioned IOPS can be expensive are just some small annoyance or ugh kind of things I would encourage folks to pay close attention to. Oh yeah, also manual snapshots have to be managed by yourself, kind of obvious but there is no life cycle policy... building a read replica can take up to a day in my first attempt of ever creating a read replica.
Of course now I learned these lessons so we have auto and manual snapshots and a better schedule. I encourage you take the ownership of the upgrade even for minor version so you know how to design your applications to be better at fault tolerance.....in the end hing I liked RDS the most is the extensive free CW metrics available. I also recommended people not to use the mobile app and if you do, setup a read-only role / IAM user. The app is way too primitive and laggy. I still enjoy using RDS, the service is stable and quick to use, but just make sure you have the habit of backuping and take serious ownership and responsibility of the database.
There is no magic silver bullet that will let you upgrade a database without some minor amount of downtime. RDS minimizes this as much as possible by upgrading your standby database, initiating a failover, then creating a new standby. Clients will always be impacted because you have to, by definition, restart your database to be running the new version.
You can select your maintenance window, and you can defer updates as long as you want - nobody will force you to update, unless you check the "auto minor version update" box.
Please don't blame AWS for your lack of understanding of the platform. They try to protect you from yourself, and the default behavior of taking a final snapshot before deleting an instance is in both CloudFormation and the Console. If you choose to override those defaults, don't blame AWS.
You can select your maintenance window, and you can defer updates as long as you want - nobody will force you to update, unless you check the "auto minor version update" box.
Please don't blame AWS for your lack of understanding of the platform. They try to protect you from yourself, and the default behavior of taking a final snapshot before deleting an instance is in both CloudFormation and the Console. If you choose to override those defaults, don't blame AWS.
You come across strong. No one is blaming AWS.
>So I learned my first lesson with RDS - make sure final snapshot flag is enabled (for EC2 user, please remind yourself anything stored on ephemeral storage are going to be loss upon a hard VM stop/start operation, so backup!!!).
This bit us once. Someone issued a `shutdown -h now` out of habit in an instance that was going for reboot, and it came back without its data, because "shutdown" is the same as "stop", and "stop" on ephemeral instances means "delete all my data". Since the command was issued from inside the VM, no warning or message that would've appeared on the EC2 console was displayed.
Amazon's position on ephemeral storage was shockingly unacceptable and unprofessional. They claimed they had to scrub the physical storage as soon as the stop button was pressed for security purposes, which is a complete cop-out. Of course they can't reallocate that chunk of the disk to the next instance while your stuff is on it, but they could've implemented a small cooldown period between stoppage, scrubbing, and reallocating the disk so that there would at least be a panic button and/or so accidental reboots-as-shutdowns don't destroy data. The only reason they didn't do that is because they didn't want to need to expand their infrastructure to accommodate it. Very sloppy, and not at all OK. That's not how you treat customer data.
Fortunately, AWS has moved on; I don't think that any new instances can be created with ephemeral storage anymore. Pure EBS now.
>I also learned that RDS is not truly HA in the case of upgrading servers, both minor and major upgrade. I've tested major upgrade and saw DB connection unavailable up to 10 min. In some minor version upgrades both primary and secondary had to be taken down.
You need multi-AZ for true HA. Failover within the same AZ has a small delay, as you've noted.
>I still enjoy using RDS, the service is stable and quick to use, but just make sure you have the habit of backuping and take serious ownership and responsibility of the database.
As many others in this thread have said, AWS and other cloud providers aren't a silver bullet. Competent people are still needed to manage these sorts of things. GitLab most likely would not have fared any better under AWS.
This bit us once. Someone issued a `shutdown -h now` out of habit in an instance that was going for reboot, and it came back without its data, because "shutdown" is the same as "stop", and "stop" on ephemeral instances means "delete all my data". Since the command was issued from inside the VM, no warning or message that would've appeared on the EC2 console was displayed.
Amazon's position on ephemeral storage was shockingly unacceptable and unprofessional. They claimed they had to scrub the physical storage as soon as the stop button was pressed for security purposes, which is a complete cop-out. Of course they can't reallocate that chunk of the disk to the next instance while your stuff is on it, but they could've implemented a small cooldown period between stoppage, scrubbing, and reallocating the disk so that there would at least be a panic button and/or so accidental reboots-as-shutdowns don't destroy data. The only reason they didn't do that is because they didn't want to need to expand their infrastructure to accommodate it. Very sloppy, and not at all OK. That's not how you treat customer data.
Fortunately, AWS has moved on; I don't think that any new instances can be created with ephemeral storage anymore. Pure EBS now.
>I also learned that RDS is not truly HA in the case of upgrading servers, both minor and major upgrade. I've tested major upgrade and saw DB connection unavailable up to 10 min. In some minor version upgrades both primary and secondary had to be taken down.
You need multi-AZ for true HA. Failover within the same AZ has a small delay, as you've noted.
>I still enjoy using RDS, the service is stable and quick to use, but just make sure you have the habit of backuping and take serious ownership and responsibility of the database.
As many others in this thread have said, AWS and other cloud providers aren't a silver bullet. Competent people are still needed to manage these sorts of things. GitLab most likely would not have fared any better under AWS.
Don't blame AWS because you don't understand what ephemeral storage is.
There is a significant security reason why they blank the ephemeral storage. How would you feel if a competitor got the same physical server as you, and was able to read all of your data? AWS takes great lengths to protect customer data privacy in a shared, multi-tenant environment. They are very public through their documentation about how this works, so I think it's a bit negligent to blame them because you don't understand the platform.
There is a significant security reason why they blank the ephemeral storage. How would you feel if a competitor got the same physical server as you, and was able to read all of your data? AWS takes great lengths to protect customer data privacy in a shared, multi-tenant environment. They are very public through their documentation about how this works, so I think it's a bit negligent to blame them because you don't understand the platform.
Did you read my post? I understand what ephemeral storage is, and that giving another instance access to that physical device without scrubbing it is insecure. That's not the point. There's no reason that AWS needs to delete that data the instant a stop command is issued.
AWS gets paid the big bucks to abstract such concerns away in a pleasant manner. The device with customer data can sit in reserve, attached to the customer's account, for a cooldown period (of maybe 24 hours?) that would allow the customer to redeem it. AWS could even charge a fee for such data redemptions to compensate for the temporary utilization of the resource, or they could say ephemeral instances will always cost your use + 1 day. They can put a quota on the number of times you can hop ephemeral nodes.
They could do basically anything else, because basically anything else is better than accidentally deleting data that you need due to a counterintuitive vendor-specific quirk that conflicts with established conventions and habits and then being told "Sorry, you should've read the docs better."
This is an Amazon-specific thing that bucks established convention and converts the otherwise-harmless habits of sysadmins into potential data loss events. It's very bad to do this ever (looking at you, killall Linux v killall Solaris), but it's especially bad to do it on a new platform like AWS where you know lots of people are going to be carrying over their established habits and learning the lay of the land. It is not reasonable for Amazon to tell the users that they just have to suck it up and read the docs more thoroughly next time.
This is not like invoking rm on your system or database root, which is a multi-decade danger that everyone is aware of and acclimated to accounting for, and which has multiple system-level safeguards in place to prevent it: user access control, safe-by-default versions of rm that have been distributed with most major distributions lately, etc., and for which thorough backup and replication solutions exist to provide remedies when inevitable accidents do happen.
The point is that just instantly deleting that data ASAP and providing 0 chance for recovery is wanton recklessness, and there's no excuse for it. Security is not an excuse because there's no reason they have to reallocate the storage the instant the node is stopped.
If such deletions could only be triggered from the EC2 console after removing a safeguard similar to Termination Protection, that may be more reasonable, but allowing a shutdown command from the CLI to destroy the data is patently irresponsible.
Good system design considers that humans will use the system, that humans make mistakes, and it will provide safeguards and forgiveness. Ephemeral storage fails on all of those fronts. Yes, technically, it's the user's fault for mistakenly pressing the buttons that make this happen. But that doesn't matter. The system needs to be reasonably safe. AWS's implementation of ephemeral storage is neither safe nor reasonable.
Amazon has done a good job of tucking ephemeral storage away. It used to be the default on certain instance sizes. As another commenter points out, it now requires one to specifically launch an AMI with instance-backed storage. It's good that they've made it harder to get into this mess, but it's bad that they continue to mistreat customers this way, especially when their prices are so exorbitant.
AWS gets paid the big bucks to abstract such concerns away in a pleasant manner. The device with customer data can sit in reserve, attached to the customer's account, for a cooldown period (of maybe 24 hours?) that would allow the customer to redeem it. AWS could even charge a fee for such data redemptions to compensate for the temporary utilization of the resource, or they could say ephemeral instances will always cost your use + 1 day. They can put a quota on the number of times you can hop ephemeral nodes.
They could do basically anything else, because basically anything else is better than accidentally deleting data that you need due to a counterintuitive vendor-specific quirk that conflicts with established conventions and habits and then being told "Sorry, you should've read the docs better."
This is an Amazon-specific thing that bucks established convention and converts the otherwise-harmless habits of sysadmins into potential data loss events. It's very bad to do this ever (looking at you, killall Linux v killall Solaris), but it's especially bad to do it on a new platform like AWS where you know lots of people are going to be carrying over their established habits and learning the lay of the land. It is not reasonable for Amazon to tell the users that they just have to suck it up and read the docs more thoroughly next time.
This is not like invoking rm on your system or database root, which is a multi-decade danger that everyone is aware of and acclimated to accounting for, and which has multiple system-level safeguards in place to prevent it: user access control, safe-by-default versions of rm that have been distributed with most major distributions lately, etc., and for which thorough backup and replication solutions exist to provide remedies when inevitable accidents do happen.
The point is that just instantly deleting that data ASAP and providing 0 chance for recovery is wanton recklessness, and there's no excuse for it. Security is not an excuse because there's no reason they have to reallocate the storage the instant the node is stopped.
If such deletions could only be triggered from the EC2 console after removing a safeguard similar to Termination Protection, that may be more reasonable, but allowing a shutdown command from the CLI to destroy the data is patently irresponsible.
Good system design considers that humans will use the system, that humans make mistakes, and it will provide safeguards and forgiveness. Ephemeral storage fails on all of those fronts. Yes, technically, it's the user's fault for mistakenly pressing the buttons that make this happen. But that doesn't matter. The system needs to be reasonably safe. AWS's implementation of ephemeral storage is neither safe nor reasonable.
Amazon has done a good job of tucking ephemeral storage away. It used to be the default on certain instance sizes. As another commenter points out, it now requires one to specifically launch an AMI with instance-backed storage. It's good that they've made it harder to get into this mess, but it's bad that they continue to mistreat customers this way, especially when their prices are so exorbitant.
So, the solution to some customers not understanding the economics and functionality of ephemeral storage is to charge all customers for a minimum of 25 hours of use, even if they only use the instance for a single hour? That seems crazy.
Look, AWS is trying to balance the economics of a large, shared, multi-tenant platform. It would be great if they had enough excess capacity around to keep ephemeral instance hardware unused for 24 hours after the customer terminates or stops the instance, but frankly, that's an edge case, and they would be forcing other customers to subsidize your edge case by charging everyone more.
Look, AWS is trying to balance the economics of a large, shared, multi-tenant platform. It would be great if they had enough excess capacity around to keep ephemeral instance hardware unused for 24 hours after the customer terminates or stops the instance, but frankly, that's an edge case, and they would be forcing other customers to subsidize your edge case by charging everyone more.
>So, the solution to some customers not understanding the economics and functionality of ephemeral storage
Let me stop you there. In our case, it wasn't that we didn't understand what ephemeral storage was or how it functioned, or that it would get cleared if the instance was stopped (though I've frequently met people who are confused over whether instance storage gets wiped when a machine is stopped or when it's terminated; it gets wiped when an instance is stopped).
The issue was that someone typed "sudo shutdown -h now" out of habit instead of "sudo shutdown -r now" (and yes, something like "sudo reboot" should've been used instead to prevent such mistakes). Stopping an instance, which is what happens when you "shut down", can have other ramifications that are annoying, like getting a different IP address when it's started back up, but those annoyances are usually pretty easy to recover from, not a big deal. Much different ball park from getting your stuff wiped.
Destroying consumer data IS a big deal. It's ALWAYS a big deal. If your system allows users to destroy their data without being 1000% clear about what's happening, your system's design is broken. High-cost actions like that should require multiple confirmations.
Even the behavior of the `rm` command has been adjusted to account for this (though it could be argued that it hasn't been adjusted far enough); for the last several years, an extra flag has been required to remove the filesystem root.
>is to charge all customers for a minimum of 25 hours of use, even if they only use the instance for a single hour? That seems crazy.
One of several potential solutions. It doesn't seem crazy to me; at least, not in comparison to making a platform with such an abnormal design that something which is an innocent, non-destructive command everywhere else can unexpectedly destroy tons of data.
The ideal solution would be for Amazon to fix their design so that this is fully transparent to the user. Instance storage should be transmitted into a temporary EBS disk on shutdown and automatically re-applied to a new instance store when it's spun back up (it's OK if this happens asynchronously). The EBS disk would follow conventional EBS disk termination policies; that data shouldn't be deleted except at times that the EBS root disk would also be deleted (typically on instance termination, unless special action is taken to preserve it).
That could be an optional extension, but it should be on by default -- that is, you could start an instance store at a lower cost per hour if you disabled this functionality, similar to reduced redundancy storage in S3, etc. Almost every company would be thrilled to pay the extra few cents per hour to safeguard against the accidental destruction of virtually any quantity of data that might be important.
>Look, AWS is trying to balance the economics of a large, shared, multi-tenant platform. It would be great if they had enough excess capacity around to keep ephemeral instance hardware unused for 24 hours after the customer terminates or stops the instance, but frankly, that's an edge case, and they would be forcing other customers to subsidize your edge case by charging everyone more.
A redemption fee would punish the user who made the mistake for failing to account for Amazon's flawed design. Under this model, such fees should be at least high enough to make up the cost incurred by Amazon in keeping the hardware idle.
This way Amazon can punish people who impugn upon its bad design choices by making them embarrass themselves before their bosses when they have to explain why the AWS bill is $300 higher this month or whatever, and the data won't be gone. Winners all around.
Let me stop you there. In our case, it wasn't that we didn't understand what ephemeral storage was or how it functioned, or that it would get cleared if the instance was stopped (though I've frequently met people who are confused over whether instance storage gets wiped when a machine is stopped or when it's terminated; it gets wiped when an instance is stopped).
The issue was that someone typed "sudo shutdown -h now" out of habit instead of "sudo shutdown -r now" (and yes, something like "sudo reboot" should've been used instead to prevent such mistakes). Stopping an instance, which is what happens when you "shut down", can have other ramifications that are annoying, like getting a different IP address when it's started back up, but those annoyances are usually pretty easy to recover from, not a big deal. Much different ball park from getting your stuff wiped.
Destroying consumer data IS a big deal. It's ALWAYS a big deal. If your system allows users to destroy their data without being 1000% clear about what's happening, your system's design is broken. High-cost actions like that should require multiple confirmations.
Even the behavior of the `rm` command has been adjusted to account for this (though it could be argued that it hasn't been adjusted far enough); for the last several years, an extra flag has been required to remove the filesystem root.
>is to charge all customers for a minimum of 25 hours of use, even if they only use the instance for a single hour? That seems crazy.
One of several potential solutions. It doesn't seem crazy to me; at least, not in comparison to making a platform with such an abnormal design that something which is an innocent, non-destructive command everywhere else can unexpectedly destroy tons of data.
The ideal solution would be for Amazon to fix their design so that this is fully transparent to the user. Instance storage should be transmitted into a temporary EBS disk on shutdown and automatically re-applied to a new instance store when it's spun back up (it's OK if this happens asynchronously). The EBS disk would follow conventional EBS disk termination policies; that data shouldn't be deleted except at times that the EBS root disk would also be deleted (typically on instance termination, unless special action is taken to preserve it).
That could be an optional extension, but it should be on by default -- that is, you could start an instance store at a lower cost per hour if you disabled this functionality, similar to reduced redundancy storage in S3, etc. Almost every company would be thrilled to pay the extra few cents per hour to safeguard against the accidental destruction of virtually any quantity of data that might be important.
>Look, AWS is trying to balance the economics of a large, shared, multi-tenant platform. It would be great if they had enough excess capacity around to keep ephemeral instance hardware unused for 24 hours after the customer terminates or stops the instance, but frankly, that's an edge case, and they would be forcing other customers to subsidize your edge case by charging everyone more.
A redemption fee would punish the user who made the mistake for failing to account for Amazon's flawed design. Under this model, such fees should be at least high enough to make up the cost incurred by Amazon in keeping the hardware idle.
This way Amazon can punish people who impugn upon its bad design choices by making them embarrass themselves before their bosses when they have to explain why the AWS bill is $300 higher this month or whatever, and the data won't be gone. Winners all around.
A redemption fee is a good idea, but it would still take engineering effort to build such a feature, so the opportunity cost is that other features customers need wouldn't get built.
Another thing I'd like to point out is that you really need to plan for ephemeral storage to fail. All it takes is a single disk drive failure in your physical host, and you've lost data. If you are using ephemeral storage at all, you should definitely have good, reliable backups, or the data should be protected in other ways (like HDFS replication).
Another thing I'd like to point out is that you really need to plan for ephemeral storage to fail. All it takes is a single disk drive failure in your physical host, and you've lost data. If you are using ephemeral storage at all, you should definitely have good, reliable backups, or the data should be protected in other ways (like HDFS replication).
> I don't think that any new instances can be created with ephemeral storage anymore. Pure EBS now.
Still around, can be launched with an instance-store backed AMI:
http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/InstanceS...
Still around, can be launched with an instance-store backed AMI:
http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/InstanceS...
Not sure how it works on cloudformation, but in the console and API you have to explicitly skip the final snapshot.
I know about the daily snapshots, but didn't know about the archive logs. Is this something I have to enable? How do I get the logs and how do I restore using them?
It's automatic. Go ahead and launch a new instance, restoring to a point in time (that's how you do restores in RDS). Notice that it gives you a calendar day/date/time fields where you can select the recovery point down to the second. This is enabled by replaying the archive logs to get you to the exact point in time.
Thank you! I never realized I could do this for some reason. I always restored from snapshots.
Jesus christ, thanks for the infomercial.
A great number of issues can be attributed to the selection of Azure as the platform of choice. That said, a little bird told me that the decision was largely a cost factor. "You get what you pay for" never rang more true.
But none of the issues were azure/cost related except for the slow recovery? I mean, neither AWS nor GCE can make you notice youre not getting cron mail.
Setup a cloudwatch alarm and have cron send a keepalive email to it..? Without looking, I'm pretty sure that does exactly what you want.
And also entirely possible to do with azure. AWS doesn't make you do that.
Also, depending on precise nature of the dmarc fuckup, wouldn't help anyway. Cloud watch receiving mail doesn't guarantee that you will receive mail.
Also, depending on precise nature of the dmarc fuckup, wouldn't help anyway. Cloud watch receiving mail doesn't guarantee that you will receive mail.
Yes, I recall seeing a ticket that referenced Gitlab using Azure because it was heavily subsidized. My company uses Azure for much the same reason, and my experience has been largely positive.
Is Azure cutting deals beyond the usual free 60k over a year or two or whatever it is for cool startups? Azure seems significantly more expensive in general, problems and slowness aside.
Azure offers $500k for YC startups and $360k for "lesser" accelerators. It's by far the most generous offer out there.
The engineers still seem to have a physical server mindset rather than a cloud mindset. Deleting data is always extremely dangerous and there was no need for it in this situation.
They should have spun up a new server to act as secondary the moment replication failed. This new server is the one you run all of these commands on, and if you make a mistake you spin up a new one.
Only when the replication is back in good order do you go through and kill the servers you no longer need.
The procedure for setting up these new servers should be based on the same scripts that spin up new UAT servers for each release. You spin up a server that is a near copy of production and then do the upgrade to new software on that. Only when you've got a successful deployment do you kill the old UAT server. This way all of these processes are tested time and time again and you know exactly how long they'll take and iron out problems in the automation.
They should have spun up a new server to act as secondary the moment replication failed. This new server is the one you run all of these commands on, and if you make a mistake you spin up a new one.
Only when the replication is back in good order do you go through and kill the servers you no longer need.
The procedure for setting up these new servers should be based on the same scripts that spin up new UAT servers for each release. You spin up a server that is a near copy of production and then do the upgrade to new software on that. Only when you've got a successful deployment do you kill the old UAT server. This way all of these processes are tested time and time again and you know exactly how long they'll take and iron out problems in the automation.
This type of thing always sounds good and all, but the reality is people get desperate and emotional when their website is down and everyone wants it up ASAP.
I certainly don't disagree with that, but if you have this automated it is also the fastest way to get it back up and running. Besides, the site wouldn't have been down if they had this.
> They should have spun up a new server to act as secondary the moment replication failed.
In a perfect world everything is cluster-ready &c at the outset. In this world it usually... isn't.
EDIT: ... and I'd posit that such cluster-readiness actually isn't worth it most of the time.
In a perfect world everything is cluster-ready &c at the outset. In this world it usually... isn't.
EDIT: ... and I'd posit that such cluster-readiness actually isn't worth it most of the time.
You don't think it's worth it most the time because of the hassle of setting up and managing a cluster, or because clusters in and of it self is not necessary for most?
The latter. I think it's a 1% business case, basically. I mean, if we can get 80% benefit without excessive cost, then it's obviously a good idea. (And I do use Ansible/Docker and the like, but it's not entirely without friction... which is where the cost/benefit analysis comes in.)
EDIT: Obviously, if you really need clustering, then you need it, but IME people tend to overestimate their needs drastically. Everybody wants to be Big Data, but almost nobody actually is.
EDIT: Obviously, if you really need clustering, then you need it, but IME people tend to overestimate their needs drastically. Everybody wants to be Big Data, but almost nobody actually is.
That’s a nice idea, if you’re willing to pay the massive extra cost to actually rent all those overpriced systems.
For me, personally, going from cloud servers to rented dedicated servers cut my bill by 93% – more than an order of magnitude. At same performance.
In fact, it’d be cheaper to run 10x as many dedicated servers than to use cloud solutions for me.
For me, personally, going from cloud servers to rented dedicated servers cut my bill by 93% – more than an order of magnitude. At same performance.
In fact, it’d be cheaper to run 10x as many dedicated servers than to use cloud solutions for me.
It cut your cloud services bill by 93%, but how much did it increase your engineering bill by?
If your engineering time is free, then this calculation is complete. Otherwise it is not.
Does that 93% saving pay for a DB engineer, or enough of your developers' time to build the same quality of redundancy as you'd get with a DBaaS?
This calculus is going to be different for every DB and every company, but the OpEx impact of switching to dedicated servers is a bit more complex than you suggest above.
If your engineering time is free, then this calculation is complete. Otherwise it is not.
Does that 93% saving pay for a DB engineer, or enough of your developers' time to build the same quality of redundancy as you'd get with a DBaaS?
This calculus is going to be different for every DB and every company, but the OpEx impact of switching to dedicated servers is a bit more complex than you suggest above.
(a) I’m talking about projects I host in my free time
(b) My server budget is fixed.
So, for me the choice was between "use cloud tools, and get performance worse than a raspberry pi", or "run dedicated, and get more performance and storage and traffic than I need, and actually the ability to run my stuff".
For less than the price of a Netflix subscription I’m able to run services that can handle tenthousands of concurrent users, and have terabytes of storage (and enough traffic that I never have to worry about that).
And the cost of setting it up was for me a few days.
For me it was a decision between being able to run services, or not being able to run them at all.
So, for me the choice was between "use cloud tools, and get performance worse than a raspberry pi", or "run dedicated, and get more performance and storage and traffic than I need, and actually the ability to run my stuff".
For less than the price of a Netflix subscription I’m able to run services that can handle tenthousands of concurrent users, and have terabytes of storage (and enough traffic that I never have to worry about that).
And the cost of setting it up was for me a few days.
For me it was a decision between being able to run services, or not being able to run them at all.
Sure, hobby/spare-time projects are one of the cases where it's perfectly reasonable to self-host; often it's fun to learn about the underlying tools by rolling your own db, and doing so can save you some cash (at the expense of your own time).
However, that paradigm is not really applicable to GitLab's OpEx calculation; they have to pay their engineers ;)
However, that paradigm is not really applicable to GitLab's OpEx calculation; they have to pay their engineers ;)
Even for GitLab, when you have 1-2 orders of magnitude price difference, it might be more affordable to hire a DBA.
You have to remember GitLab is a 100% remote company, so they can hire DBAs from anywhere on the planet.
The cloud obviously makes a lot more sense if you have US electricity prices and Silicon Valley wages.
You have to remember GitLab is a 100% remote company, so they can hire DBAs from anywhere on the planet.
The cloud obviously makes a lot more sense if you have US electricity prices and Silicon Valley wages.
Yes, it might be more affordable. They seem to think it is, as they have chosen to go with self-hosted.
My point is simply that your posts above didn't address the complexity of their calculation, as they didn't factor the costs of switching to self-hosted.
My point is simply that your posts above didn't address the complexity of their calculation, as they didn't factor the costs of switching to self-hosted.
The fact that they're using a single master software is already an antiquated concept in 2017
>Trying to restore the replication process, an engineer proceeds to wipe the PostgreSQL database directory, errantly thinking they were doing so on the secondary. Unfortunately this process was executed on the primary instead. The engineer terminated the process a second or two after noticing their mistake, but at this point around 300 GB of data had already been removed.
I could feel the sweat drops just from reading this.
I'd bet every one of us has experienced the panicked Ctrl+C of Death at some point or another.
I could feel the sweat drops just from reading this.
I'd bet every one of us has experienced the panicked Ctrl+C of Death at some point or another.
Brings back memories, though not of anything I did. Quoting a comment I made on HN recently in a different thread:
---
Back in 2009 we were outsourcing our ops to a consulting company, who managed to delete our app database... more than once.
The first time it happened, we didn't understand what, exactly, had caused it. The database directory was just gone, and it seemed to have gone around 11pm. I (not they!) discovered this and we scrambled to recover the data. We had replication, but for some reason the guy on call wasn't able to restore from them -- he was standing in for our regular ops guy, who was away on site with another customer -- so after he'd struggled for a while, I said screw it, let's just restore the last dump, which fortunately had run an hour earlier; after some time we were able to get a new master set up, and although we had lost one hour of data, it was fortunately from a quiet period with very little writes. Everyone went to bed around 1am and things were fine, the users were forgiving, and it seemed like a one-time accident. The techs promised that setting up a new replication slave would happen the next day.
Then, the next day, at exactly 11pm, the exact same thing happened! This obviously pointed to a regular maintenance job as being the culprit. It turns out the script they used to rotate database backup files did an "rm -rf" of the database directory by accident. Again we scrambled to fix. This time the dump was 4 hours old, and there was no slave we could promote to master. We restored the last dump, and I spent the night writing and running a tool that reconstructed the most important data from our logs (fortunately we logged a great deal, including the content of things users were creating). I was able to go bed around 5am. The following afternoon, our main guy was called back to help fix things and set up replication. He had to travel back to the customer, and the last things he told the other guy was: "Remember to disable the cron job".
Then at 10pm... well, take a guess. Kaboom, no database. Turns out they were using Puppet for configuration management, and when the on-call guy had fixed the cron job, he hadn't edited Puppet; he'd edited the crontab on the machine manually. So Puppet ran 15 mins later and put the destructive cron job back in. This time we called everyone, including the CEO. The department head cut his vacation short and worked until 4am restoring the master from the replication logs.
We then fired the company (which filed for bankruptcy not too long after), got a ton of money back (we threatened to sue for damages), and took over the ops side of things ourselves. Haven't lost a database since.
---
Back in 2009 we were outsourcing our ops to a consulting company, who managed to delete our app database... more than once.
The first time it happened, we didn't understand what, exactly, had caused it. The database directory was just gone, and it seemed to have gone around 11pm. I (not they!) discovered this and we scrambled to recover the data. We had replication, but for some reason the guy on call wasn't able to restore from them -- he was standing in for our regular ops guy, who was away on site with another customer -- so after he'd struggled for a while, I said screw it, let's just restore the last dump, which fortunately had run an hour earlier; after some time we were able to get a new master set up, and although we had lost one hour of data, it was fortunately from a quiet period with very little writes. Everyone went to bed around 1am and things were fine, the users were forgiving, and it seemed like a one-time accident. The techs promised that setting up a new replication slave would happen the next day.
Then, the next day, at exactly 11pm, the exact same thing happened! This obviously pointed to a regular maintenance job as being the culprit. It turns out the script they used to rotate database backup files did an "rm -rf" of the database directory by accident. Again we scrambled to fix. This time the dump was 4 hours old, and there was no slave we could promote to master. We restored the last dump, and I spent the night writing and running a tool that reconstructed the most important data from our logs (fortunately we logged a great deal, including the content of things users were creating). I was able to go bed around 5am. The following afternoon, our main guy was called back to help fix things and set up replication. He had to travel back to the customer, and the last things he told the other guy was: "Remember to disable the cron job".
Then at 10pm... well, take a guess. Kaboom, no database. Turns out they were using Puppet for configuration management, and when the on-call guy had fixed the cron job, he hadn't edited Puppet; he'd edited the crontab on the machine manually. So Puppet ran 15 mins later and put the destructive cron job back in. This time we called everyone, including the CEO. The department head cut his vacation short and worked until 4am restoring the master from the replication logs.
We then fired the company (which filed for bankruptcy not too long after), got a ton of money back (we threatened to sue for damages), and took over the ops side of things ourselves. Haven't lost a database since.
I'm no sysadmin, and I know mistakes are inevitable and all... but I find this kind of mistake is unlikely to come from me. I feel as though a lot of developers are too nonchalant about production boxes. I think one or two close calls where I nearly did this exact thing served as a good wakeup call for me.
Steps I personally take to avoid this:
- Avoid prod boxes like the plague
- Set up a prompt (globally) to make it extremely obvious that you're in production. Something like a red background and black text saying "PRODUCTION"
- When changing data in production (DB's, config, etc) write a script (or just commands to copy and paste) and have that peer reviewed. If anything doesn't go to plan, treat it as a red flag. This serves a dual purpose of having a quick record of your actions without hunting through logs.
- Never ever leave open sessions
- Avoid prod boxes. This is important enough for me to say twice. Most of the time it can be avoided, especially if you use configuration management tools and write tools to perform common operations.
Now, lets just cross my fingers I don't jinx myself :-)
Steps I personally take to avoid this:
- Avoid prod boxes like the plague
- Set up a prompt (globally) to make it extremely obvious that you're in production. Something like a red background and black text saying "PRODUCTION"
- When changing data in production (DB's, config, etc) write a script (or just commands to copy and paste) and have that peer reviewed. If anything doesn't go to plan, treat it as a red flag. This serves a dual purpose of having a quick record of your actions without hunting through logs.
- Never ever leave open sessions
- Avoid prod boxes. This is important enough for me to say twice. Most of the time it can be avoided, especially if you use configuration management tools and write tools to perform common operations.
Now, lets just cross my fingers I don't jinx myself :-)
This sounds really cool. How about you are working for amazon or google and you have 1M production boxes? A nice prompt wont save you, change management will. Writing down the exact steps and reading it yourself and get others to read it and you execute it line by line. In my experience this is much better approach than avoid production boxes or have a red prompt and also scales to larger infrastructures. If something goes sideways (and in some cases it will) you can pinpoint the root cause quickly.
It may be unlikely to come from you, but it's for damn sure that it'll never happen to said engineer again.
Also, I would make sure to have a different prompt than default for non-prod systems too. That way you know to be suspicious if it hasn't been changed from default.
Also, I would make sure to have a different prompt than default for non-prod systems too. That way you know to be suspicious if it hasn't been changed from default.
I don't think most of your points really apply though. They were setting up replication in production, so they had to work on production boxes. Setting prompt to say just "production" wouldn't help for the same reason. Production was intended.
Peer review though - yes. That could help. I wouldn't say "I'm unlikely to make that mistake" - it's likely to go on the famous last words list...
Peer review though - yes. That could help. I wouldn't say "I'm unlikely to make that mistake" - it's likely to go on the famous last words list...
Sure, maybe the point about "PRODUCTION" may not have applied, I was mainly commenting on OPs post about how we've all been in a situation and the steps I take to avoid such situations. I'm curious about your arguments about the remaining 3/4 of the steps I take and how those wouldn't have applied to this situation?
The red PS1 would've clearly indicated to the engineer that he was typing `rm -rf ...` on the _master_, not the secondary. This assumes that the master and secondary would have differing prompts based on their relative importance.
That would help, but that's not what OP advocated. Sure, you can improve on those ideas. I was mainly pointing out that saying "it's unlikely to happen to me" was a bit dangerous and too sure, if most of the reasons do not apply to the situation.
Would the steps I describe prevent actions taken in the GitLab incident? I would never make no assumptions to that. Maybe. Maybe not. Did I say following those steps would make it unlikely to happen to you? No. That's why I prefaced it with "I'm not a sysadmin." Would it prevent cases described by the person I was responding to? Absolutely. Not 100% of the time, but some percentage of the time.
So, I'll say it more clearly, and you can mark my words. It's unlikely I'll ever log into a production system, type the wrong command, and do something bad as a result.
Could I deploy code that does very bad things to production? Yes. It'll probably happen to me. Is that the situation described above? No.
I treat logging into a production system as if one wrong move could result in me losing my job. Why? Because one wrong move could result in me losing my job. I'm not joking when I say I avoid logging into a production system like the plague. It's unlikely to happen to me because its extremely rare for me to put myself in a situation where I could let this happen. There's almost always better alternatives that I'll resort to, well before doing anything like this.
So, I'll say it more clearly, and you can mark my words. It's unlikely I'll ever log into a production system, type the wrong command, and do something bad as a result.
Could I deploy code that does very bad things to production? Yes. It'll probably happen to me. Is that the situation described above? No.
I treat logging into a production system as if one wrong move could result in me losing my job. Why? Because one wrong move could result in me losing my job. I'm not joking when I say I avoid logging into a production system like the plague. It's unlikely to happen to me because its extremely rare for me to put myself in a situation where I could let this happen. There's almost always better alternatives that I'll resort to, well before doing anything like this.
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I messed up an XP computer at home with `cd D:\backups\something; del /s * ` many years ago; `cd` without the /D flag doesn’t change the drive, so although D:\backups\something was the working directory on the D: drive, the working directory was still C:\WINDOWS\system32, and cmd.exe was running as administrator.
Fortunately disks were slower back then, so it hadn’t deleted too many files when I interrupted it, and the computer was able to be recovered without too much inconvenience.
Fortunately disks were slower back then, so it hadn’t deleted too many files when I interrupted it, and the computer was able to be recovered without too much inconvenience.
For me, it was when I meant to execute this...
rm -rf ~/foo
rm -rf ~ /fooMy worst data loss was:
On my system, this overwrote my full mailbox with a gzipped copy of my outbox, and a complaint that the mbox.tar.gz input file didn't exist.
That's right, the worst data loss happened while I was trying to take a backup. :(
$ tar cvfz mbox outbox mbox.tar.gz
On my system, this overwrote my full mailbox with a gzipped copy of my outbox, and a complaint that the mbox.tar.gz input file didn't exist.
That's right, the worst data loss happened while I was trying to take a backup. :(
What were you trying to do? What's the outbox argument for?
He was trying to backup his mbox and outbox.
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I did the Windows equivalent once a long time ago (I think it's deltree?) and I did it on a university computer system. It cleared out a TON of files and the computer itself pretty much stopped working. I had to hard turn it off.
Fortunately the University was using some tool that can re-image a computer each time it boots before hitting Windows so starting it back up and all the deleted system and application files were back.
Fortunately the University was using some tool that can re-image a computer each time it boots before hitting Windows so starting it back up and all the deleted system and application files were back.
Probably Ghost server, that's why schools do this.
this is the reason why I always use quotes before specifying folders with rf -rf :)
I always type
ls /stuff/wherever/*
Then examine the output to see if that is the stuff I really want to delete and if it is,
up-arrow Ctrl-A right right backspace backspace rm -rf enter
Never deleted the wrong stuff again in 30 years of doing that
ls /stuff/wherever/*
Then examine the output to see if that is the stuff I really want to delete and if it is,
up-arrow Ctrl-A right right backspace backspace rm -rf enter
Never deleted the wrong stuff again in 30 years of doing that
Something else that is really useful in these situations (in bash at least) is alt-* (alt-shift-8). It will expand a directory or glob into all effected top level files/directories.
For example, it will expand `ls *` to `ls foo bar baz`, etc
For example, it will expand `ls *` to `ls foo bar baz`, etc
I always cd to the parent directory, ls with tab complete to check, the rm with the same tab complete.
Great tip, thanks!
For me it was a simple `rm -rf .`. Thought I was in ~/somefolder/, was actually in ~...
I stopped it after about 3 seconds, but that was enough to do critical damage.
I stopped it after about 3 seconds, but that was enough to do critical damage.
At a small web host, early in my career, I once saw the boss blurr past my desk towards the server room. Throw open the big vault door and disappear inside.
Turns out he had accidentally executed an rm of the home dir on a major web server in the background so in panic, instead of killing the right pid, he just ran to the server and pulled the power cords. :D
Ended up restoring a few home dirs from tape.
Turns out he had accidentally executed an rm of the home dir on a major web server in the background so in panic, instead of killing the right pid, he just ran to the server and pulled the power cords. :D
Ended up restoring a few home dirs from tape.
Great to have a full-featured, professional post-mortem. Incidentally I work at a company that suffered data loss because of this outage and we're looking for ways to move out of GL.
My 2 cents... I might be the only one, but I don't like the way GL handled this case. I understand transparency as a core value and all, but they've gotten a bit too far.
IMHO this level of exposure has far-reaching, privacy implications for the ppl who work there. Implications that cannot be assessed now.
The engineer in question might have not suffered a PTSD, but some other engineer might haven been. Who knows how a bad public experience might play out? It's a fairly small circle, I'm not sure I would like to be part of a company that would expose me in a similar fashion, if I happen to screw up.
On the corporate side of things there is a saying in Greek: "Τα εν οίκω μη εν δήμω" meaning don't wash your dirty linen in public. Although they're getting praised by bloggers and other small-size startups, in the end of the day exposing your 6-layer broken backup policy and other internal flaws in between, while being funded at the tune of 25.62M in 4 rounds, does not look good.
My 2 cents... I might be the only one, but I don't like the way GL handled this case. I understand transparency as a core value and all, but they've gotten a bit too far.
IMHO this level of exposure has far-reaching, privacy implications for the ppl who work there. Implications that cannot be assessed now.
The engineer in question might have not suffered a PTSD, but some other engineer might haven been. Who knows how a bad public experience might play out? It's a fairly small circle, I'm not sure I would like to be part of a company that would expose me in a similar fashion, if I happen to screw up.
On the corporate side of things there is a saying in Greek: "Τα εν οίκω μη εν δήμω" meaning don't wash your dirty linen in public. Although they're getting praised by bloggers and other small-size startups, in the end of the day exposing your 6-layer broken backup policy and other internal flaws in between, while being funded at the tune of 25.62M in 4 rounds, does not look good.
Hi Panagiotis. I'm glad to hear you like the postmortem. I'm very sorry your company suffered data loss. If you want to move from GitLab.com please know that you can easily export projects and import them on a self-hosted instance https://gitlab.com/help/user/project/settings/import_export.... (and if in the future we regain your trust you can also go the other way).
It is not our intent to have one of our team members implicated by the transparency. That is why we redacted their name to team-member-1 and in any future incidents we'll do the same. It should be their choice to be identified or not. We are very aware of the stress that such a mistake might cause and the rest of the team has been very supportive.
I agree that we don't look good because of the broken backup policy. The way to fix that is to improve our processes. We recognize the risk to the company of being transparent, but your values are defined by what you do when it is hard.
It is not our intent to have one of our team members implicated by the transparency. That is why we redacted their name to team-member-1 and in any future incidents we'll do the same. It should be their choice to be identified or not. We are very aware of the stress that such a mistake might cause and the rest of the team has been very supportive.
I agree that we don't look good because of the broken backup policy. The way to fix that is to improve our processes. We recognize the risk to the company of being transparent, but your values are defined by what you do when it is hard.
This is a perfect response.
Every day I'm growing more to like GitLab. It took me way too long to realize that GitLab has a singular focus to change how people create and collaborate.
A person purely motivated on principle to see a specific change is going to find a way to make it happen. The hard part with such ideological ventures is that you have to have the business sense to make it sustainable. I'm gradually learning to recognize both aspects present in GitLab.
When you're guided on principle, it's much easier to accept losses here and there in the right way...
> If you want to move from GitLab.com please know that you can easily export projects and import them on a self-hosted instance (and if in the future we regain your trust you can also go the other way).
...and be able to stay focused on the bigger picture! Some customers were going to react this way no matter what. Sytse's response here characterizes GitLab's response as a whole here—we know we did wrong here, we learned from it, and we're going to be able to do a better job here on out regardless of whatever the fallout from the incident is.
Sytse, I love what you're doing and I look forward to seeing your continued resilience and dedication to your goal. The world needs more businesses like this.
Every day I'm growing more to like GitLab. It took me way too long to realize that GitLab has a singular focus to change how people create and collaborate.
A person purely motivated on principle to see a specific change is going to find a way to make it happen. The hard part with such ideological ventures is that you have to have the business sense to make it sustainable. I'm gradually learning to recognize both aspects present in GitLab.
When you're guided on principle, it's much easier to accept losses here and there in the right way...
> If you want to move from GitLab.com please know that you can easily export projects and import them on a self-hosted instance (and if in the future we regain your trust you can also go the other way).
...and be able to stay focused on the bigger picture! Some customers were going to react this way no matter what. Sytse's response here characterizes GitLab's response as a whole here—we know we did wrong here, we learned from it, and we're going to be able to do a better job here on out regardless of whatever the fallout from the incident is.
Sytse, I love what you're doing and I look forward to seeing your continued resilience and dedication to your goal. The world needs more businesses like this.
Thanks for the kind words Jason. It has been a long week and reading this at 7:30am on a Saturday is an unexpected gift.
Thanks for the reply.
> It is not our intent to have one of our team members implicated by the transparency. That is why we redacted their name to team-member-1 and in any future incidents we'll do the same.
Great, good to know. I wish all the success in the world to you and everyone involved with Gitlab.
> It is not our intent to have one of our team members implicated by the transparency. That is why we redacted their name to team-member-1 and in any future incidents we'll do the same.
Great, good to know. I wish all the success in the world to you and everyone involved with Gitlab.
Thank you very much!
> your values are defined by what you do when it is hard.
Precisely.
Most companies would stay as quiet about this as possible, you guys remained transparent and this is why I'll remain a customer.
Precisely.
Most companies would stay as quiet about this as possible, you guys remained transparent and this is why I'll remain a customer.
Thanks for supporting us.
Reading this, the thing that stuck out to me was how remarkably lucky they were to have the two snapshots. The one from 6 hours earlier was there seemingly by chance, as an engineer had created it for unrelated reasons. And for both the 6- and 24-hour snapshots, it seems just lucky that neither had any breaking changes made to them by pre-production code (they _were_ dev/staging snapshots, after all).
I'm glad it all worked out in the end!
I'm glad it all worked out in the end!
We too are glad we had those snapshots. And while it was the worst thing that ever happend at GitLab it is humbling to know that it could have been worse.
What do you think would have happened if you had total data loss/failure?
I don't work for gitlab.
Isn't that a put you out of business moment? I guess there is enterprise installations but the main website would be toast.
I guess there is the chance there were still older backups taken intentionally or by chance that would have been worse but recoverable from
Isn't that a put you out of business moment? I guess there is enterprise installations but the main website would be toast.
I guess there is the chance there were still older backups taken intentionally or by chance that would have been worse but recoverable from
Most of their income probably comes from customers that run their own GitLab Enterprises installs. This would have really sucked for all of their non paying users, though.
GitHub also lost a bunch of PRs and issues sitewide early in their history. They claimed to have restored all the PRs from backup, but I was pretty sure I had opened a PR and it never came back. I emailed support and they basically told me tough luck.
>Unfortunately DMARC was not enabled for the cronjob emails, resulting in them being rejected by the receiver. This means we were never aware of the backups failing, until it was too late.
At my dayjob, we gradually stopped using email for almost all alerts, instead we have several Slack channels like #database-log where errors to MySQL go. Any cron jobs that fail post in #general-log. Uptime monitoring tools post in #status. So on...
Email has so much anti-spam stuff like DMARC that make it less reliable your mail will be delivered. For something failing like a backup or database query, it's too important to have potentially not reach someone who can make sure it gets fixed.
My 2 cents.
At my dayjob, we gradually stopped using email for almost all alerts, instead we have several Slack channels like #database-log where errors to MySQL go. Any cron jobs that fail post in #general-log. Uptime monitoring tools post in #status. So on...
Email has so much anti-spam stuff like DMARC that make it less reliable your mail will be delivered. For something failing like a backup or database query, it's too important to have potentially not reach someone who can make sure it gets fixed.
My 2 cents.
This is a step in the right direction but still misses a big part of it IMO: push versus pull notifications. If the agent stops functioning correctly or someone makes a config change, the alerts just stop and no one notices.
At the very least you want some kinda dead-man's switch that gets pissed if it's seen no events in the last x amount of time. Ideally you want to be polling the box in a stateful way; although with ephemeral nodes & flexible infra being all the rage that's fallen to the side a bit lately.
At the very least you want some kinda dead-man's switch that gets pissed if it's seen no events in the last x amount of time. Ideally you want to be polling the box in a stateful way; although with ephemeral nodes & flexible infra being all the rage that's fallen to the side a bit lately.
Absolutely, that's a great idea!
You could also check for evidence a run has been successful, although that does depend on what you're doing exactly.
For our backup system, we're going to build an audit cron job on our main server that checks all our Azure containers to see if each server has pushed a file lately. It'll alert us if a file hasn't been uploaded in a few days or if it's smaller than a few MB (which is suspiciously small; we'd expect a few hundred MB for mysqldump+files).
You could also check for evidence a run has been successful, although that does depend on what you're doing exactly.
For our backup system, we're going to build an audit cron job on our main server that checks all our Azure containers to see if each server has pushed a file lately. It'll alert us if a file hasn't been uploaded in a few days or if it's smaller than a few MB (which is suspiciously small; we'd expect a few hundred MB for mysqldump+files).
How do you set cron to post to Slack?
We use Monolog (PHP library) that is able to post to Slack.
Messages in Monolog, like syslog have a level attached, so DEBUG, INFO, NOTICE and WARNING will only be written to a log file on disk. Anything higher, so ERROR, CRITICAL, ALERT or EMERGENCY will write to Slack (as well as log to disk). This means we only get notified of things failing and we can go on the server and see everything from DEBUG upwards which lets us mentally step through the cron job's run.
It's a very cool library. https://github.com/Seldaek/monolog
You can see the handlers here: https://github.com/Seldaek/monolog/tree/master/src/Monolog/H... which includes Slack, HipChat, IFTTT, Pushover, etc...
Messages in Monolog, like syslog have a level attached, so DEBUG, INFO, NOTICE and WARNING will only be written to a log file on disk. Anything higher, so ERROR, CRITICAL, ALERT or EMERGENCY will write to Slack (as well as log to disk). This means we only get notified of things failing and we can go on the server and see everything from DEBUG upwards which lets us mentally step through the cron job's run.
It's a very cool library. https://github.com/Seldaek/monolog
You can see the handlers here: https://github.com/Seldaek/monolog/tree/master/src/Monolog/H... which includes Slack, HipChat, IFTTT, Pushover, etc...
> Unfortunately this process was executed on the primary instead. The engineer terminated the process a second or two after noticing their mistake, but at this point around 300 GB of data had already been removed.
I can only image this engineer's poor old heart after the realization of removing that directory on the master. A sinking, awful feeling of dread.
I've had a few close calls in my career. Each time it's made me pause and thank my luck it wasn't prod.
I can only image this engineer's poor old heart after the realization of removing that directory on the master. A sinking, awful feeling of dread.
I've had a few close calls in my career. Each time it's made me pause and thank my luck it wasn't prod.
Thanks so much for the post and transparency Gitlab! We had just finished recovering from our own outage (stemming for a power loss and subsequent cascading failures) and were scheduled to do our post-mortem on 2/1 so the original document was a refreshing and reassuring read.
Glad to hear it was of use to you.
This is an outstanding writeup, but I wonder if it glosses over the real problem:
>>The standby (secondary) is only used for failover purposes.
>>One of the engineers went to the secondary and wiped the data directory, then ran pg_basebackup.
IMO, secondaries should be treated exactly as their primaries. No operation should be done on a secondary unless you'd be OK doing that same operation on the primary. You can always create another instance for these operations.
>>The standby (secondary) is only used for failover purposes.
>>One of the engineers went to the secondary and wiped the data directory, then ran pg_basebackup.
IMO, secondaries should be treated exactly as their primaries. No operation should be done on a secondary unless you'd be OK doing that same operation on the primary. You can always create another instance for these operations.
>When we went to look for the pg_dump backups we found out they were not there. The S3 bucket was empty, and there was no recent backup to be found anywhere. Upon closer inspection we found out that the backup procedure was using pg_dump 9.2, while our database is running PostgreSQL 9.6 (for Postgres, 9.x releases are considered major). A difference in major versions results in pg_dump producing an error, terminating the backup procedure.
Yikes. One common practice that would have avoided this is by using the just taken backup to populate stage. If the restore fails pages go out. If integration tests that run after a successful restore/populate fail- pages go out.
Live and learn I guess.
Yikes. One common practice that would have avoided this is by using the just taken backup to populate stage. If the restore fails pages go out. If integration tests that run after a successful restore/populate fail- pages go out.
Live and learn I guess.
I've noticed a lot of other positive activity and press for Gitlab for in the past month.
It's unfortunate they had this technical issue, but it's good to see others ( besides Github ) operating in this space. I should give Gitlab a try sometime.
It's unfortunate they had this technical issue, but it's good to see others ( besides Github ) operating in this space. I should give Gitlab a try sometime.
We just switched from Github to Gitlab for our private repos. The choice (based upon cost alone) was between them and Bitbucket, and the professional way that this was handled and the transparent communication was really nice to see.
Just want to add here that using tools like safe-rm[1] across your infrastructure would help in preventing data losses by running rm on unintended directories.
[1]: https://launchpad.net/safe-rm
[1]: https://launchpad.net/safe-rm
>An ideal environment is one in which you can make mistakes but easily and quickly recover from them with minimal to no impact.
This is a great attitude. Too often opportunity cost isn't considered when making rules to protect folks from doing something stupid.
This is a great attitude. Too often opportunity cost isn't considered when making rules to protect folks from doing something stupid.
It's amazing how quickly it descends into "one of the engineers" did x or y. Who was steering this ship exactly?
It's really simple to point the finger and try to find a single cause of failure - but it's a fools errand - comparable to finding the single source behind a great success.
It's really simple to point the finger and try to find a single cause of failure - but it's a fools errand - comparable to finding the single source behind a great success.
Do you expect management to be staring over your shoulder every time you do some kind of `rm` on a production server? With great power comes great responsibility.
People get tired, sick, frustrated, panic - part of being a responsible engineer is accepting you're as fallible as the next person and building in protection against your own errors.
However, if "the engineer" that caused this happens to read this, the above is not a sign that you should quit the profession and become a hermit. A chain of events caused this, you just happened to be the one without a chair to sit in when the music stopped.
However, if "the engineer" that caused this happens to read this, the above is not a sign that you should quit the profession and become a hermit. A chain of events caused this, you just happened to be the one without a chair to sit in when the music stopped.
One of the coolest things I've read about is how airlines do root cause analysis. If you get to a point where a human can mess up the situation like this, it's considered a systemic issue. Mobile now, but can try to find it later
EDIT: https://dvikan.no/ntnu-studentserver/reports/A%20Human%20Err...
> That is, much like falling dominoes, Bird and others (Adams, 1976; Weaver, 1971) have described the cascading nature of human error beginning Human Error Perspective 39 with the failure of management to control losses (not necessarily of the monetary sort) within the organization.
EDIT: https://dvikan.no/ntnu-studentserver/reports/A%20Human%20Err...
> That is, much like falling dominoes, Bird and others (Adams, 1976; Weaver, 1971) have described the cascading nature of human error beginning Human Error Perspective 39 with the failure of management to control losses (not necessarily of the monetary sort) within the organization.
In general, in aviation, the existence of any single point of failure (SPOF) is considered a systemic issue, be it a single human who can fail (anyone can faint or have a heart attack), a single component, or a single process. That's why there are not only redundant systems, but redundant humans and even redundant processes for the same task (you can power the control surfaces hydraulics through the engines, then through the aux power unit, then through the windmill... ).
If a design contains an SPOF, then it's a bad design and should not be approved until the SPOF is removed by adequate redundancy or other means.
If a design contains an SPOF, then it's a bad design and should not be approved until the SPOF is removed by adequate redundancy or other means.
Management is often at fault for not giving engineers the resources to do their job properly. How much of the 'Improving Recovery Procedures' were already highlighted but ignored? Were they pressured to deliver other features instead of bedding down some of their operations procedures?
I'm not saying this is the case here but it's all too easy to blame someone for making a mistake. Even the most experienced make mistakes but reducing your MTTR is often overlooked in favour of other seemingly more pressing concerns.
I'm not saying this is the case here but it's all too easy to blame someone for making a mistake. Even the most experienced make mistakes but reducing your MTTR is often overlooked in favour of other seemingly more pressing concerns.
It was not the managements job to prevent the engineer from typing "rm". It was the managements job to make sure that typing "rm" would not result in big data loss. This is, assuming the engineer was not already the highest ranking technical person in the company.
I am very happy about their open post-mortem, so that anyone can learn from it. Reading it, it looks to me that the "rm" was not the cause of the disaster, it just triggered it. The real problem was the whole setup, which failed. And that is something, which falls under managements responsibility.
I am very happy about their open post-mortem, so that anyone can learn from it. Reading it, it looks to me that the "rm" was not the cause of the disaster, it just triggered it. The real problem was the whole setup, which failed. And that is something, which falls under managements responsibility.
doesn't everyone alias rm to rm -i on prod?
likewise all tty's have red backgrounds on prod.
likewise all tty's have red backgrounds on prod.
I'm not sure if you're making an equally sarcastic point as your parent or not..
nope serious. I was at a place that the dba did exactly what happened at gitlab but in sql
select * from table > script
@script.
(drop all the tables)
It was in prod, he thought it was a dev db, the backups had never worked. After this the edict was all terminals for prod will be red. A simple solution
select * from table > script
@script.
(drop all the tables)
It was in prod, he thought it was a dev db, the backups had never worked. After this the edict was all terminals for prod will be red. A simple solution
90% of all outages are caused by human error. That's why change management solutions were so big 10 years ago, trying to get rid of the human element of changes in an enterprise.
They way to deal with that is not to crush the people, but to analyse the ways human decision making fails and to provide assistance. More often than not the failures occur because the people had not been trained correctly, which is a management problem not a PEBKAC one (how many junior systems people have been trained in how to recover from cascading disk/network/database failures?). ITIL is just a tool for ensuring failures which no one understands because understanding has been devalued.
sytse and GitLab folks: thank you for the transparency.
You're welcome. Thanks for all the kind responses we received https://twitter.com/i/moments/826818668948549632
Am I missing something or didn't they mention 'test recovery, not backups'?
Two of the issues linked from the article deal with testing the backups:
- Automated testing of recovering PostgreSQL database backups https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/infrastructure/issues/1102
- Build Streaming Database Restore https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/infrastructure/issues/1152
- Automated testing of recovering PostgreSQL database backups https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/infrastructure/issues/1102
- Build Streaming Database Restore https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/infrastructure/issues/1152
The backup situation stands out to me as a problem no one has really adequately solved. Verifying a task has happened in a way where the notifications are noticed is actually a really hard problem that it feels like we collectively ignore in this business.
How do you reliably check if something didn't happen? Is the backup server alive? Did the script work? Did the backup work? Is the email server working? Is the dashboard working? Is the user checking their emails (think: wildcard mail sorting rule dumping a slight change in failure messages to the wrong folder).
And the converse answer isn't much better: send a success notification...but if it mostly succeeds, how do you keep people paying attention to it when it doesn't (i.e. no failure message, but no success message)?
The best answer I've got, personally, is to use positive notifications combined with visibility - dashboard your really important tasks with big, distinctive colors - use time based detection and put a clock on your dashboard (because dashboards which mostly don't change might hang and no one notice).
How do you reliably check if something didn't happen? Is the backup server alive? Did the script work? Did the backup work? Is the email server working? Is the dashboard working? Is the user checking their emails (think: wildcard mail sorting rule dumping a slight change in failure messages to the wrong folder).
And the converse answer isn't much better: send a success notification...but if it mostly succeeds, how do you keep people paying attention to it when it doesn't (i.e. no failure message, but no success message)?
The best answer I've got, personally, is to use positive notifications combined with visibility - dashboard your really important tasks with big, distinctive colors - use time based detection and put a clock on your dashboard (because dashboards which mostly don't change might hang and no one notice).
My main question is still:
>> Why did replication stop? - A spike in database load caused the database replication process to stop. This was due to the primary removing WAL segments before the secondary could replicate them.
Is this a bug/defect in PostgreSQL then? Incorrect PostgreSQL configuration? Insufficient hardware? What was the root cause of Postgres primary removing the WAL segments?
>> Why did replication stop? - A spike in database load caused the database replication process to stop. This was due to the primary removing WAL segments before the secondary could replicate them.
Is this a bug/defect in PostgreSQL then? Incorrect PostgreSQL configuration? Insufficient hardware? What was the root cause of Postgres primary removing the WAL segments?
The cause is bad configuration.
PgSQL, Mongo, and MySQL all use a transaction stream like this for replication and they all have to put some kind of cap on it or risk running out of disk space, but the cap should be made sufficiently large to allow automatic resumption of disconnected slaves without manual redumping, except in extraordinary circumstances. Log retention should be long enough to last at least a long weekend so that someone can come in and poke the DB back into action on Tuesday morning, but preferably more like 1 week. Alarms should be configured to fire well before replication lag gets anywhere near the log expiration timeout.
In particular, PostgreSQL has a feature that allows automatic WAL archiving (i.e., it confirms that the WAL has been successfully shipped to a separate system before it removes it from the master) and a feature called "replication slots" that ensures that all WALs are kept if a regular subscriber is offline. If either of these features had been correctly configured, there would've been no need to do a full resync; the secondary database would've come back and immediately picked up where it left off.
Additionally, if one must resync the full database (and I've had to do this many times), tools like pg_basebackup and innobackupex are basically required to consistently perform the process of pulling the master dumps, and the old (unsynced) data directory should be allowed to linger until the full master snapshot has been fully confirmed and is ready to resync. It's very reckless to go around removing binary data directories until you're certain that the new stuff is running, even if you're "just on the replicant".
With pg_basebackup, you run it on the replicant server and it streams down the files, no need to log into the master server at all. With innobackupex, you need to have read access to the master's binary data directory, but should achieve this safely through something like a read-only NFS mount. mydumper is a possible alternative to innobackupex that tries to capture the binlog coords and doesn't require any direct access to the host beneath the database server.
PgSQL, Mongo, and MySQL all use a transaction stream like this for replication and they all have to put some kind of cap on it or risk running out of disk space, but the cap should be made sufficiently large to allow automatic resumption of disconnected slaves without manual redumping, except in extraordinary circumstances. Log retention should be long enough to last at least a long weekend so that someone can come in and poke the DB back into action on Tuesday morning, but preferably more like 1 week. Alarms should be configured to fire well before replication lag gets anywhere near the log expiration timeout.
In particular, PostgreSQL has a feature that allows automatic WAL archiving (i.e., it confirms that the WAL has been successfully shipped to a separate system before it removes it from the master) and a feature called "replication slots" that ensures that all WALs are kept if a regular subscriber is offline. If either of these features had been correctly configured, there would've been no need to do a full resync; the secondary database would've come back and immediately picked up where it left off.
Additionally, if one must resync the full database (and I've had to do this many times), tools like pg_basebackup and innobackupex are basically required to consistently perform the process of pulling the master dumps, and the old (unsynced) data directory should be allowed to linger until the full master snapshot has been fully confirmed and is ready to resync. It's very reckless to go around removing binary data directories until you're certain that the new stuff is running, even if you're "just on the replicant".
With pg_basebackup, you run it on the replicant server and it streams down the files, no need to log into the master server at all. With innobackupex, you need to have read access to the master's binary data directory, but should achieve this safely through something like a read-only NFS mount. mydumper is a possible alternative to innobackupex that tries to capture the binlog coords and doesn't require any direct access to the host beneath the database server.
+1 for replication slots. Just remember to remove the slot if you decommission a server; otherwise storage on the master will grow forever.
innobackupex works fine locally on the server, streaming out to netcat or ssh on the remote side. Nothing wild like read only NFS required. It also copies all binlogs. Mydumper is pretty old at this point and doesn't do most of the things innobackupex can. I wouldn't recommend it.
innobackupex works fine locally on the server, streaming out to netcat or ssh on the remote side. Nothing wild like read only NFS required. It also copies all binlogs. Mydumper is pretty old at this point and doesn't do most of the things innobackupex can. I wouldn't recommend it.
Wow, thanks. This is like the best answer I've ever seen. You absolutely nailed it.
Are you by any chance looking for any DevOps/Ops consulting? I just founded my third startup Elastic Byte (https://elasticbyte.net) and always looking for smart people. We're a consulting startup that helps companies manage their cloud infrastructure.
Are you by any chance looking for any DevOps/Ops consulting? I just founded my third startup Elastic Byte (https://elasticbyte.net) and always looking for smart people. We're a consulting startup that helps companies manage their cloud infrastructure.
I'm flattered, but I'm sure there are better options out there, and I'm swamped as it is anyway. ;) I'll keep it in mind and reach out if something changes.
I do think that's a great startup, though, and this post-mortem and incident only proves how badly it's needed. A lot of people already think they're getting something like what you're offering when they sign up with a cloud provider.
I do think that's a great startup, though, and this post-mortem and incident only proves how badly it's needed. A lot of people already think they're getting something like what you're offering when they sign up with a cloud provider.
No worries. You're not in the bay by chance are you? Coffee/beer on me if so.
There's always some limit. At $PREVIOUS_JOB I think it was at least 48 hours, probably over 72 hours, of replication log retention (usually measured in GiB though). So it's surprising that in GitLab's case it must have been less than 6 hours (IIRC from the original google doc the slave had more than 4 hours replication lag due to load, initially ...)
There was a nice response from the PostgreSQL guys here: http://blog.2ndquadrant.com/dataloss-at-gitlab/
There is a bug that might have been hit, but it appears as though there were other issues at play as well.
There is a bug that might have been hit, but it appears as though there were other issues at play as well.
Can't help but notice that the new backup monitoring tool suggests that the latest PGSQL backup is almost six days old...
Is that correct? http://monitor.gitlab.net/dashboard/db/backups?from=14859419...
Is that correct? http://monitor.gitlab.net/dashboard/db/backups?from=14859419...
yes, wal archiving would have helped (archive_command = rsync standby ...), but it's also very easy in postgres 9.4+ to add a replication slot on the master so that wal is kept until it is no longer needed by the standby. simply reference the slot in the standby's recovery.conf file.
definitely monitor your replication lag--or at least disk usage on the master--with this approach (in case wal starts piling up there).
definitely monitor your replication lag--or at least disk usage on the master--with this approach (in case wal starts piling up there).
@sytse were you in contact with MS/Azure during the restore? If so did they offer any assistance, e.g in speeding up restoration disk speed etc
Does anyone have a link to the YouTube stream they's talking about? Can't seem to find it on their channel. And the link in the doc is redirecting to the live link [1] which doesn't list the stream.
[1] - https://www.youtube.com/c/Gitlab/live
[1] - https://www.youtube.com/c/Gitlab/live
Yup,
Thanks for taking the interest to check it out.
It's an unlisted YT video, so that's why it might be hard to find.
Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc0hPGerSd4
Thanks for taking the interest to check it out.
It's an unlisted YT video, so that's why it might be hard to find.
Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc0hPGerSd4
Thanks! I'll check it out.
[deleted]
TIL GitLab runs on Azure. If your CI servers or deployment targets are also on Azure then the latency should be pretty low (assuming you get the correct region). Good to know.
I moved from AWS to Azure years ago. Mainly because I run mostly .NET workloads and the support is better. I've recently done some .NET stuff on AWS again and am remembering why I switched.
I moved from AWS to Azure years ago. Mainly because I run mostly .NET workloads and the support is better. I've recently done some .NET stuff on AWS again and am remembering why I switched.
Thank you for this informative postmortem and mitigation outline.
Are any organizational changes planned in response to the development friction which led to the outage? It seems to have arisen from long-standing operational issues, and an analysis of how prior attempts to address those issues got bogged down would be very interesting.
Are any organizational changes planned in response to the development friction which led to the outage? It seems to have arisen from long-standing operational issues, and an analysis of how prior attempts to address those issues got bogged down would be very interesting.
I found this entertaining, even if they did later admit that it was a hoax:
http://serverfault.com/questions/587102/monday-morning-mista...
http://serverfault.com/questions/587102/monday-morning-mista...
Shouldn't the conclusion of this post mortem be a move to a managed database service like RDS? The database doesn't sound huge, RDS is affordable enough, sounds to me that you spend less money and have better uptime and sleep by moving away from this in-house solution.
According to this article:
> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/14/gitlab_to_dump_clou...
...they were moving away from the cloud, to their own servers.
> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/14/gitlab_to_dump_clou...
...they were moving away from the cloud, to their own servers.
We changed our minds. We're working on a post in https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/merge_requests/... but we wanted to post this first.
It would be great for all of us if you provided your reasoning: to cloud, or not to cloud :) Thanks
The thing I linked contains a draft blog post with our reasons. But feel free to ask questions after reading that.
Every internal Ops manual needs to begin with the simple phrase:
DON'T PANIC
DON'T PANIC
If you want to up your cron job monitoring game there's a link in my profile.
Watching GitLab is somewhat painful. I feel like they make every possible mistake you could do as an IT startup and because they are transparent about it people seem to love the fact that they screw up all the time. I don't know if I share the same mentality, because at the end of the day I don't trust GitLab even with the simplest task, let alone any valuable work of mine.
It's good to be humble and know that mistakes can happen to anyone and learn from it, etc., but when you do in 2017 still the same stupid mistakes that people did a million times since 1990 and it's all well documented and there's systems built to avoid these same basic mistakes and you still do them today then I just think it cannot be described any different than absolute stupidity and incompetence.
I know they have many fans who just look past every mistake no matter how bad it was only because they are open about it, but common, this is now just taking the piss no?
It's good to be humble and know that mistakes can happen to anyone and learn from it, etc., but when you do in 2017 still the same stupid mistakes that people did a million times since 1990 and it's all well documented and there's systems built to avoid these same basic mistakes and you still do them today then I just think it cannot be described any different than absolute stupidity and incompetence.
I know they have many fans who just look past every mistake no matter how bad it was only because they are open about it, but common, this is now just taking the piss no?
I had exactly the same feeling. One of my friends was a doctor at a hospital and there was a serious mistake which my friend reported to the consultant. The consultant made a good point that it was never just one mistake that caused the serious mistake; it was a series of smaller mistakes that hadn't been checked or addressed. (the argument was that there were processes to avoid these kinds of mistakes)
If you read the post they also noted that they were also in the process of accidentally removing one of their own employees which make me think that there are other problems going on here.
Maybe part of the problem is that I think that the industry has a problem that it isn't willing to learn from the experiences of others? (I feel like we have 'just enough learning' and 'experienced folk who raise concerns are considered stuck in their outdated ways' and 'people who make a silly mistake like that must be an idiot'). I think that since we clump together those that have had formal training with those that haven't we aren't encouraging the value of this education. I'm also fully aware that some self-learned developers are much more competent rather than a college educated developer.
Maybe part of the problem is that I think that the industry has a problem that it isn't willing to learn from the experiences of others? (I feel like we have 'just enough learning' and 'experienced folk who raise concerns are considered stuck in their outdated ways' and 'people who make a silly mistake like that must be an idiot'). I think that since we clump together those that have had formal training with those that haven't we aren't encouraging the value of this education. I'm also fully aware that some self-learned developers are much more competent rather than a college educated developer.
I don't actually think it has anything to do with education. I think it really comes down to common sense.
Any half intelligent engineer would always first research good practices, pitfalls and existing information which has been gathered from decades of other experienced engineers before doing anything stupid on their own. It seems that GitLab is lacking this attitude.
Any half intelligent engineer would always first research good practices, pitfalls and existing information which has been gathered from decades of other experienced engineers before doing anything stupid on their own. It seems that GitLab is lacking this attitude.
> Any half intelligent engineer would always first research good practices, pitfalls and existing information which has been gathered
This is all nice theory, but in the end we're all humans. Pretending that you'll never make a serious mistake is just tat, pretending.
This is all nice theory, but in the end we're all humans. Pretending that you'll never make a serious mistake is just tat, pretending.
True, but no one is pretending to never make a mistake. There is a huge spectrum between never making a mistake and making the most fundamental mistake because developers were ignorant to 20 years of industry knowledge.
True, but I don't think that they "were ignorant to 20 years of industry knowledge", it rather seems that they poorly understood/implemented that knowledge, which is something that's much harder to guard against and usually takes years of experience to get right. Do you remember all the issues Twitter had some years back? Twitter certainly has better access to top talent than GitLab, but it happens to the best of us. As long as they stay on top of it from now on, I think of it as a required exercise to maturity.
You can look as hard as you want on the internet, you'll never find any advice or good practice on managing production systems and migrations.
The decades of experience are not documented.
The decades of experience are not documented.
[deleted]
I really hate to pile on, but after reading through this whole thread and the whole post-mortem, there are a few basic things that are troubling besides the widely-acknowledged backup methodology. I don't see issues directly related to addressing these things.
1. notifications go through regular email. Email should be only one channel used to dispatch notifications of infrastructure events. Tools like VictorOps or PagerDuty should be employed as notification brokers/coordinators and notifications should go to email, team chat, and phone/SMS if severity warrants, and have an attached escalation policy so that it doesn't all hinge on one guy's phone not being dead.
2. there was a single database, whose performance problems had impacted production multiple times before (the post lists 4 incidents). One such performance problem was contributing to breakage at this very moment. I understand that was the thing that was trying to be fixed here, but what process allowed this to cause 4 outages over the preceding year without moving to the top of the list of things to address? Wouldn't it be wise to tweak the PgSQL configuration and/or upgrade the server before trying to integrate the hot standby to serve some read-only queries? And since a hot standby can only service reads (and afaik this is not a well-supported option in PgSQL), wouldn't most of the performance issues, which appear write-related, remain? The process seriously needs to be reviewed here.
And am I reading this right, the one and only production DB server was restarted to change a configuration value in order to try to make pg_basebackup work? What impact did that have on the people trying to use the site a) while the database was restarting, and b) while the kernel settings were tweaked to accommodate the too-high max_connections value? Is it normal for GitLab to cause intermittent, few-minute downtimes like that? Or did that occur while the site was already down?
3. Spam reports can cause mass hard deletion of user data? Has this happened to other users? The target in this instance was a GitLab employee. Who has been trolled this way such that performance wasn't impacted? What's the remedy for wrongly-targeted persons? It's clear that backups of this data are not available. And is the GitLab employee's data gone now too? How could something so insufficient have been released to the public, and how can you disclose this apparently-unresolved vulnerability? By so doing, you're challenging the public to come and try to empty your database. Good thing you're surely taking good backups now! (We're going to glance over the fact that GitLab just told everyone its logical DB backups are 3 days behind and that we shouldn't worry because LVM snapshots now occur hourly, and that it only takes 16 hours to transfer LVM snapshots between environments :) )
4. the PgSQL master deleted its WALs within 4 hours of the replica "beginning to lag" (<interrobang here>). That really needs to be fixed. Again, you probably need a serious upgrade to your PgSQL server because it apparently doesn't have enough space to hold more than a couple of hours of WALs (unless this was just a naive misconfiguration of the [min|max]_wal_size parameter, like the max_connections parameter?). I understand that transaction logs can get very large, but the disk needs to accommodate (usually a second disk array is used for WALs to ease write impact) and replication lag needs to be monitored and alarmed on.
There were a few other things (including someone else downthread who pointed out that your CEO re-revealed your DB's hostnames in this write-up, and that they're resolvable via public DNS and have running sshds on port 22), but these are the big standouts for me.
P.S. bonus point, just speculative:
Not sure how fast your disks were, but 300GB gone in "a few seconds" sounds like a stretch. Some data may've been recoverable with some disk forensics. Especially if your Postgres server was running at the time of the deletion, some data and file descriptors also likely could've been extracted from system memory. Linux doesn't actually delete files if another process is holding their handle open; you can go into the /proc virtual filesystem and grab the file descriptor again to redump the files to live disk locations. Since your database was 400GB and too big to keep 100% in RAM, this probably wouldn't have been a full recovery, but it may have been able to provide a partial.
The theoretically best thing to do in such a situation would probably be to unplug the machine ASAP after ^C (without going through formal shutdown processes that may try to "clean up" unfinished disk work), remove the disk, attach it to a machine with a write blocker, and take a full-disk image for forensics purposes. This would maximize the ability to extract any data that the system was unable to eat/destroy.
In theory, I believe pulling the plug while a process kept the file descriptor open should keep you in reasonably good shape, as far as that goes after you've accidentally deleted 3/4 of your production database. The process never closes and the disk stops and the contents remain on disk, just pending unlink when the OS stops the process (this is one reason why it'd be important to block writes to the disk/be extremely careful while mounting; if the journal plays back, it may destroy these files on the next boot anyway). But someone more familiar with the FS internals would have to say definitively if it works that way or not.
I recognize that such speculative/experimental recovery measures may have been intentionally forgone since they're labor intensive, may have delayed the overall recovery, and very possibly wouldn't have returned useful data anyway. Mentioning it mainly as an option to remain aware of.
1. notifications go through regular email. Email should be only one channel used to dispatch notifications of infrastructure events. Tools like VictorOps or PagerDuty should be employed as notification brokers/coordinators and notifications should go to email, team chat, and phone/SMS if severity warrants, and have an attached escalation policy so that it doesn't all hinge on one guy's phone not being dead.
2. there was a single database, whose performance problems had impacted production multiple times before (the post lists 4 incidents). One such performance problem was contributing to breakage at this very moment. I understand that was the thing that was trying to be fixed here, but what process allowed this to cause 4 outages over the preceding year without moving to the top of the list of things to address? Wouldn't it be wise to tweak the PgSQL configuration and/or upgrade the server before trying to integrate the hot standby to serve some read-only queries? And since a hot standby can only service reads (and afaik this is not a well-supported option in PgSQL), wouldn't most of the performance issues, which appear write-related, remain? The process seriously needs to be reviewed here.
And am I reading this right, the one and only production DB server was restarted to change a configuration value in order to try to make pg_basebackup work? What impact did that have on the people trying to use the site a) while the database was restarting, and b) while the kernel settings were tweaked to accommodate the too-high max_connections value? Is it normal for GitLab to cause intermittent, few-minute downtimes like that? Or did that occur while the site was already down?
3. Spam reports can cause mass hard deletion of user data? Has this happened to other users? The target in this instance was a GitLab employee. Who has been trolled this way such that performance wasn't impacted? What's the remedy for wrongly-targeted persons? It's clear that backups of this data are not available. And is the GitLab employee's data gone now too? How could something so insufficient have been released to the public, and how can you disclose this apparently-unresolved vulnerability? By so doing, you're challenging the public to come and try to empty your database. Good thing you're surely taking good backups now! (We're going to glance over the fact that GitLab just told everyone its logical DB backups are 3 days behind and that we shouldn't worry because LVM snapshots now occur hourly, and that it only takes 16 hours to transfer LVM snapshots between environments :) )
4. the PgSQL master deleted its WALs within 4 hours of the replica "beginning to lag" (<interrobang here>). That really needs to be fixed. Again, you probably need a serious upgrade to your PgSQL server because it apparently doesn't have enough space to hold more than a couple of hours of WALs (unless this was just a naive misconfiguration of the [min|max]_wal_size parameter, like the max_connections parameter?). I understand that transaction logs can get very large, but the disk needs to accommodate (usually a second disk array is used for WALs to ease write impact) and replication lag needs to be monitored and alarmed on.
There were a few other things (including someone else downthread who pointed out that your CEO re-revealed your DB's hostnames in this write-up, and that they're resolvable via public DNS and have running sshds on port 22), but these are the big standouts for me.
P.S. bonus point, just speculative:
Not sure how fast your disks were, but 300GB gone in "a few seconds" sounds like a stretch. Some data may've been recoverable with some disk forensics. Especially if your Postgres server was running at the time of the deletion, some data and file descriptors also likely could've been extracted from system memory. Linux doesn't actually delete files if another process is holding their handle open; you can go into the /proc virtual filesystem and grab the file descriptor again to redump the files to live disk locations. Since your database was 400GB and too big to keep 100% in RAM, this probably wouldn't have been a full recovery, but it may have been able to provide a partial.
The theoretically best thing to do in such a situation would probably be to unplug the machine ASAP after ^C (without going through formal shutdown processes that may try to "clean up" unfinished disk work), remove the disk, attach it to a machine with a write blocker, and take a full-disk image for forensics purposes. This would maximize the ability to extract any data that the system was unable to eat/destroy.
In theory, I believe pulling the plug while a process kept the file descriptor open should keep you in reasonably good shape, as far as that goes after you've accidentally deleted 3/4 of your production database. The process never closes and the disk stops and the contents remain on disk, just pending unlink when the OS stops the process (this is one reason why it'd be important to block writes to the disk/be extremely careful while mounting; if the journal plays back, it may destroy these files on the next boot anyway). But someone more familiar with the FS internals would have to say definitively if it works that way or not.
I recognize that such speculative/experimental recovery measures may have been intentionally forgone since they're labor intensive, may have delayed the overall recovery, and very possibly wouldn't have returned useful data anyway. Mentioning it mainly as an option to remain aware of.
> Not sure how fast your disks were, but 300GB gone in "a few seconds" sounds like a stretch.
That only depends on the # of files. If it's even a thousand files, any modern Linux rm -rf will remove them in less time than a blink.
> The theoretically best thing to do in such a situation would probably be to unplug the machine ASAP after ^C (without going through formal shutdown processes that may try to "clean up" unfinished disk work), remove the disk, attach it to a machine with a write blocker, and take a full-disk image for forensics purposes. This would maximize the ability to extract any data that the system was unable to eat/destroy.
Their infrastructure is cloud based. No way to get a physical disk - if there is a "disk" at all and not a couple of huge fat NetApp filers providing the storage to the CPU nodes. (This is how a couple web-hosters operate)
That only depends on the # of files. If it's even a thousand files, any modern Linux rm -rf will remove them in less time than a blink.
> The theoretically best thing to do in such a situation would probably be to unplug the machine ASAP after ^C (without going through formal shutdown processes that may try to "clean up" unfinished disk work), remove the disk, attach it to a machine with a write blocker, and take a full-disk image for forensics purposes. This would maximize the ability to extract any data that the system was unable to eat/destroy.
Their infrastructure is cloud based. No way to get a physical disk - if there is a "disk" at all and not a couple of huge fat NetApp filers providing the storage to the CPU nodes. (This is how a couple web-hosters operate)
> 1. notifications go through regular email. Email should be only one
> channel used to dispatch notifications of infrastructure events. Tools
> like VictorOps or PagerDuty should be employed as notification
> brokers/coordinators and notifications should go to email, team chat, and
> phone/SMS if severity warrants, and have an attached escalation policy so
> that it doesn't all hinge on one guy's phone not being dead.
> 2. there was a single database, whose performance problems had impacted
> production multiple times before (the post lists 4 incidents). One such
> performance problem was contributing to breakage at this very moment. I
> understand that was the thing that was trying to be fixed here, but what
> process allowed this to cause 4 outages over the preceding year without
> moving to the top of the list of things to address?
> Wouldn't it be wise to tweak the PgSQL configuration and/or upgrade the
> server before trying to integrate the hot standby to serve some read-only
> queries?
> And since a hot standby can only service reads (and afaik this is not a
> well-supported option in PgSQL), wouldn't most of the performance issues,
> which appear write-related, remain? The process seriously needs to be
> reviewed here.
> And am I reading this right, the one and only production DB server was
> restarted to change a configuration value in order to try to make
> pg_basebackup work?
> What impact did that have on the people trying to use the site a) while the
> database was restarting
> and b) while the kernel settings were tweaked to accommodate the too-high
> max_connections value?
> Is it normal for GitLab to cause intermittent, few-minute downtimes like
> that? Or did that occur while the site was already down?
> 3. Spam reports can cause mass hard deletion of user data?
> Has this happened to other users?
> What's the remedy for wrongly-targeted persons?
> And is the GitLab employee's data gone now too?
> How could something so insufficient have been released to the public
> and how can you disclose this apparently-unresolved vulnerability? By so
> doing, you're challenging the public to come and try to empty your database
> because LVM snapshots now occur hourly, and that it only takes 16 hours to
> transfer LVM snapshots between environments :)
> 4. the PgSQL master deleted its WALs within 4 hours of the replica
> "beginning to lag" (<interrobang here>). That really needs to be fixed.
> Again, you probably need a serious upgrade to your PgSQL server because it
> apparently doesn't have enough space to hold more than a couple of hours of
> WALs (unless this was just a naive misconfiguration of the
> [min|max]_wal_size parameter, like the max_connections parameter?)
> There were a few other things (including someone else downthread who pointed
> out that your CEO re-revealed your DB's hostnames in this write-up, and that
> they're resolvable via public DNS and have running sshds on port 22), but
> these are the big standouts for me.
> Not sure how fast your disks were, but 300GB gone in "a few seconds" sounds
> like a stretch.
> Some data may've been recoverable with some disk forensics.
> Especially if your Postgres server was running at the time of the deletion,
> some data and file descriptors also likely could've been extracted from
> system memory
> Hot standby is also supported just fine out of the box, you just need something third party for the actual load balancing.
I'm aware that hot standby is supported, though it's not the default configuration for the standby server (default and safest is a standby mode that you can't query at all; hot standby introduces possible conflicts between hot read queries and write transactions coming in from the WAL, so if failover is your primary intention, you should be cold standbying). I'm saying that mixing read queries in and dispersing them over hot standbys is not well-supported, which is why you need third-party tools to do it.
It can also be risky if your replication lag gets out of control, and you've indicated that it easily does. PgSQL replication is eventually consistent and you risk returning stale data on reads, which could cause all sorts of havoc if it's not accounted for by the application internally.
> We've had a few too many cases like this in the past. We're aiming to resolve those, but unfortunately this is rather tricky and time consuming.
This may take some upfront work, but it's pretty routine. A serious commercial-level offering should not need to take itself offline without announcement in order to restart the single database server and apply a configuration tweak.
> Code is written by developers, and developers are humans. Humans in turn make mistakes. Most project removal related code also existed before we started enforcing stricter performance guidelines.
The point is not that humans make mistakes, nor that bugs exist. The point is that such a feature was released without considering its easily-exploitable potential and the permanent consequences of its exploitation (permanent removal of data). That should trigger a process review.
> There's no point in hiding it. Spending a few minutes digging through the code and you'll find it, and probably plenty other similar problems. If somebody tries to abuse it we'll deal with it on a case by case basis.
There's a lot of risk in drawing attention to this type of vulnerability. I think GitLab should be taking this more seriously. All code has bugs, but this isn't a bug; it's an incomplete, dangerously-designed feature that can be easily used by a malicious actor to permanent destroy large quantities of user data. Your CEO has just highlighted it before the whole world while it's still active and exploitable on the public web site.
Reading the code isn't a dead giveaway because it takes a lot of effort to find the specific code in question and realize what it means, and because the general assumption would be that GitLab.com is running a souped-up or specialized flavor of the code and that such dangerous design flaws must have already been resolved on a presumably high-traffic site. However, this post highlights that it hasn't been, and that's bad. This is effectively irresponsible self-disclosure of a very high-grade DoS exploit.
> Probably just a naive configuration value since we have plenty of storage available.
Having the storage readily available means that the hard part is already done! Each WAL segment is 16MB. You have about 350 GB of unused disk. Set wal_keep_segments and min_wal_size to something reasonable and you won't need to do this obviously-risky resync operation every time you have a couple of hours of heavy DB load.
> Revealing hostnames isn't really a big deal, neither is SSH running on port 22. In the worst case some bots will try to log in using "admin" usernames and the likes, which won't work. All hosts use public key authentication, and password authentication is disabled.
See discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13621027. The worst case is not a bruteforced login, it's an exploited daemon that leads to an exploited box that leads to an exploited network that leads to an exploited company. The secondary concern would be a DoS attack; everyone now knows that you have only one functioning database server that everything depends on, and that that server's IP is x.x.y.y. That's enough to cause trouble even without exploits or zero days.
> When using psycial disks not used by anything else, maybe. However, we're talking about disks used in a cloud environment. Are they actually physical? Are they part of larger disks shared with other servers? Who knows. The chance of data recovery using special tools in a cloud environment is basically zero.
Yes, this complicates things significantly. Something like EBS may be able to be used pretty similarly to a dd image, though there is no way to "pull the plug" on an EC2 server afaik (maybe it's exposed through the API). I've never used Azure so I don't know if this would be practicable there.
> That only works for files still held on to by PostgreSQL. PostgreSQL doesn't keep all files open at all times, so it wouldn't help.
Indeed. While PgSQL doesn't keep all files open at all times, it does keep some files open, and they may or may not have contained useful data. I personally would've also been interested in trying to freeze the memory state (something you can do with a lot of raw VMs that you can't do with physical servers, but admittedly probably not something the cloud provider exposes).
I'm aware that hot standby is supported, though it's not the default configuration for the standby server (default and safest is a standby mode that you can't query at all; hot standby introduces possible conflicts between hot read queries and write transactions coming in from the WAL, so if failover is your primary intention, you should be cold standbying). I'm saying that mixing read queries in and dispersing them over hot standbys is not well-supported, which is why you need third-party tools to do it.
It can also be risky if your replication lag gets out of control, and you've indicated that it easily does. PgSQL replication is eventually consistent and you risk returning stale data on reads, which could cause all sorts of havoc if it's not accounted for by the application internally.
> We've had a few too many cases like this in the past. We're aiming to resolve those, but unfortunately this is rather tricky and time consuming.
This may take some upfront work, but it's pretty routine. A serious commercial-level offering should not need to take itself offline without announcement in order to restart the single database server and apply a configuration tweak.
> Code is written by developers, and developers are humans. Humans in turn make mistakes. Most project removal related code also existed before we started enforcing stricter performance guidelines.
The point is not that humans make mistakes, nor that bugs exist. The point is that such a feature was released without considering its easily-exploitable potential and the permanent consequences of its exploitation (permanent removal of data). That should trigger a process review.
> There's no point in hiding it. Spending a few minutes digging through the code and you'll find it, and probably plenty other similar problems. If somebody tries to abuse it we'll deal with it on a case by case basis.
There's a lot of risk in drawing attention to this type of vulnerability. I think GitLab should be taking this more seriously. All code has bugs, but this isn't a bug; it's an incomplete, dangerously-designed feature that can be easily used by a malicious actor to permanent destroy large quantities of user data. Your CEO has just highlighted it before the whole world while it's still active and exploitable on the public web site.
Reading the code isn't a dead giveaway because it takes a lot of effort to find the specific code in question and realize what it means, and because the general assumption would be that GitLab.com is running a souped-up or specialized flavor of the code and that such dangerous design flaws must have already been resolved on a presumably high-traffic site. However, this post highlights that it hasn't been, and that's bad. This is effectively irresponsible self-disclosure of a very high-grade DoS exploit.
> Probably just a naive configuration value since we have plenty of storage available.
Having the storage readily available means that the hard part is already done! Each WAL segment is 16MB. You have about 350 GB of unused disk. Set wal_keep_segments and min_wal_size to something reasonable and you won't need to do this obviously-risky resync operation every time you have a couple of hours of heavy DB load.
> Revealing hostnames isn't really a big deal, neither is SSH running on port 22. In the worst case some bots will try to log in using "admin" usernames and the likes, which won't work. All hosts use public key authentication, and password authentication is disabled.
See discussion at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13621027. The worst case is not a bruteforced login, it's an exploited daemon that leads to an exploited box that leads to an exploited network that leads to an exploited company. The secondary concern would be a DoS attack; everyone now knows that you have only one functioning database server that everything depends on, and that that server's IP is x.x.y.y. That's enough to cause trouble even without exploits or zero days.
> When using psycial disks not used by anything else, maybe. However, we're talking about disks used in a cloud environment. Are they actually physical? Are they part of larger disks shared with other servers? Who knows. The chance of data recovery using special tools in a cloud environment is basically zero.
Yes, this complicates things significantly. Something like EBS may be able to be used pretty similarly to a dd image, though there is no way to "pull the plug" on an EC2 server afaik (maybe it's exposed through the API). I've never used Azure so I don't know if this would be practicable there.
> That only works for files still held on to by PostgreSQL. PostgreSQL doesn't keep all files open at all times, so it wouldn't help.
Indeed. While PgSQL doesn't keep all files open at all times, it does keep some files open, and they may or may not have contained useful data. I personally would've also been interested in trying to freeze the memory state (something you can do with a lot of raw VMs that you can't do with physical servers, but admittedly probably not something the cloud provider exposes).
Regarding the spam user deletions, I am not involved but my interpretation of what GitLab wrote ( https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ce/issues/27581 https://gitlab.com/MrChrisW/gitlab-anti-spam-toolkit/issues/... ) is that, currently, there is no auto-delete running, and a human must approve each deletion.
Thanks for pointing that out. It doesn't appear that this was clarified until a couple of hours after I posted my comment, but it's definitely a relief and the wise course of action.
> Root Cause Analysis
> [...]
> [List of technical problems]
Mark my words, the board members from the VC firms will be removed by the VC partners due to letting the kids run the show. Then VC firms will put an experienced CEO and CTO in place to clean up the mess and get the company on track. Unfortunately they will probably have wasted a couple years and be down to the last million $ before they take action.
I am a senior engineer who has seen shit go down. I am quite literally the graybeard.
I am not a GitLab customer, I am not a startup junkie, and I'm usually considered one of the more conservative (in action, not politics) engineers in my peer group in technology adoption.
The cloud is just someone else's computer.
However, I've also seen graybeards who should have known better fuck something up. I've seen a team of smart people who in a moment of crisis made the wrong decision. I am currently in an organization that is full of careful people and have still seen data loss.
I went trawling through LinkedIn for GitLab employees, and they certainly have their fair share of senior engineers. If you want to fault them for being a remote company, that's fine, but is it that different than a fortune 500 company that has developers in the Bay Area, Austin, India, China, Budapest, and remote workers in other locations?
Or is a company only legitimate if it's in an open space in the Valley?
I am not a GitLab customer, I am not a startup junkie, and I'm usually considered one of the more conservative (in action, not politics) engineers in my peer group in technology adoption.
The cloud is just someone else's computer.
However, I've also seen graybeards who should have known better fuck something up. I've seen a team of smart people who in a moment of crisis made the wrong decision. I am currently in an organization that is full of careful people and have still seen data loss.
I went trawling through LinkedIn for GitLab employees, and they certainly have their fair share of senior engineers. If you want to fault them for being a remote company, that's fine, but is it that different than a fortune 500 company that has developers in the Bay Area, Austin, India, China, Budapest, and remote workers in other locations?
Or is a company only legitimate if it's in an open space in the Valley?
I couldn't agree with you more.
As your beard greys you realize absolutely everywhere is a mess. Everybody is an imposter and nothing matches the ideals you think should exist. The most capable people are just as prone to fat fingering critical commands as the greenhorns.
People have the wrong attitude towards failure and it's actually quite harmful. If you don't actively study it and make avoiding failure the #1 priority of your company you're absolutely doomed to commit a serious error at some point, and usually it's fine.
We're talking about a distributed version control system. Half the point is resilience to data loss. Compound that with the final result which was a site down for a day and loss of 6 hours of data. I've lost a day of work before to doing nothing and worked hard for a few hours and accidentally deleted it. If you haven't, you're probably lying to yourself. I didn't fall on my sword. It's just not that big of a deal. If it happens frequently? Sure. But it's going to happen once to a lot of people.
One of the very most important aspects to avoiding failure is being amiable when it happens. Fear of failure causes quite a bit of failure and stupid behavior to try to hide and avoid it.
I also simply don't understand the vitriol towards remote work.
As your beard greys you realize absolutely everywhere is a mess. Everybody is an imposter and nothing matches the ideals you think should exist. The most capable people are just as prone to fat fingering critical commands as the greenhorns.
People have the wrong attitude towards failure and it's actually quite harmful. If you don't actively study it and make avoiding failure the #1 priority of your company you're absolutely doomed to commit a serious error at some point, and usually it's fine.
We're talking about a distributed version control system. Half the point is resilience to data loss. Compound that with the final result which was a site down for a day and loss of 6 hours of data. I've lost a day of work before to doing nothing and worked hard for a few hours and accidentally deleted it. If you haven't, you're probably lying to yourself. I didn't fall on my sword. It's just not that big of a deal. If it happens frequently? Sure. But it's going to happen once to a lot of people.
One of the very most important aspects to avoiding failure is being amiable when it happens. Fear of failure causes quite a bit of failure and stupid behavior to try to hide and avoid it.
I also simply don't understand the vitriol towards remote work.
The issue is not that data loss occurred per se, nor is it that destructive accidents and oversights don't happen to senior people. The issue is that GitLab's surprisingly amateur and sloppy practices, many of which are blatantly obvious to people with a medium amount of ops experience, have bled through every aspect of this incident since it first occurred.
They didn't just lose data. They lost data and all of their actual backups were invalid. They had to restore from a system image that was taken for non-backup purposes, and, as luck would have it, was able to function as a backup in this instance. Not having working backups for months-long stretches rises to the level of negligence or incompetence from whomever is supposed to be supervising their infrastructure.
We all know that backups in the general sense are crucial and that they don't get done nearly often enough, but being lazy about backing up the home directory on your laptop is a lot different than allowing the company to sit without working backups for months.
I'm not saying that this doesn't happen to senior engineers who are victims of bad management, but qualified leadership doesn't allow it.
On top of that, it emerges that this condition occurred because they don't have good practices around when to log in to the master database server, they remove binary data directories before they pull down new copies, they don't know how to configure PgSQL and have to do a full standby resync after a couple of hours of high DB load because they don't have WAL archiving, replication slots, or even a semi-sane wal_keep_segments/min_wal_size set, they have no automated backup sanity check (let alone a schedule of human-verified backup restores) and other inadequate monitoring and alarming practices, and do I really need to go on? I could, because in this thread alone there are several other major faux pas mentioned.
I'm not sure how many of these sloppy, amateur errors you want to allow to stack on top of each other before you start thinking that GitLab is semi-responsible for this and that it's not within the typical senior-person margin of error, but it passed that threshold a long time ago for me.
GitLab severely underpays for any candidate not based in a top 10 real estate market, talking like 50-60% under market, because they punish candidates based on how much cheaper the real estate in their home market is than in New York City. The consensus is that this impedes their ability to obtain good talent and I would say that the events of the last couple of weeks have demonstrated that with spectacular clarity.
At least in my case, the impression has nothing to do with their operation as a remote company -- I'm a full-time remote worker and I learned about GitLab's atrocious salary formulae when I was checking them out as a potential employer because I wanted to move to an all-remote company (instead of the partially-remote company I work in now).
I'm sure that most of GitLab's engineers are good engineers relative to their experience levels. I'm also sure a small handful who accidentally align with their salary formula are senior in their particular fields. And I'm thirdly sure that no one with any inkling of experience in running a stable, reliable, production-level service and infrastructure has been allowed any fractional amount of influence in their infrastructure and deployment procedures.
They didn't just lose data. They lost data and all of their actual backups were invalid. They had to restore from a system image that was taken for non-backup purposes, and, as luck would have it, was able to function as a backup in this instance. Not having working backups for months-long stretches rises to the level of negligence or incompetence from whomever is supposed to be supervising their infrastructure.
We all know that backups in the general sense are crucial and that they don't get done nearly often enough, but being lazy about backing up the home directory on your laptop is a lot different than allowing the company to sit without working backups for months.
I'm not saying that this doesn't happen to senior engineers who are victims of bad management, but qualified leadership doesn't allow it.
On top of that, it emerges that this condition occurred because they don't have good practices around when to log in to the master database server, they remove binary data directories before they pull down new copies, they don't know how to configure PgSQL and have to do a full standby resync after a couple of hours of high DB load because they don't have WAL archiving, replication slots, or even a semi-sane wal_keep_segments/min_wal_size set, they have no automated backup sanity check (let alone a schedule of human-verified backup restores) and other inadequate monitoring and alarming practices, and do I really need to go on? I could, because in this thread alone there are several other major faux pas mentioned.
I'm not sure how many of these sloppy, amateur errors you want to allow to stack on top of each other before you start thinking that GitLab is semi-responsible for this and that it's not within the typical senior-person margin of error, but it passed that threshold a long time ago for me.
GitLab severely underpays for any candidate not based in a top 10 real estate market, talking like 50-60% under market, because they punish candidates based on how much cheaper the real estate in their home market is than in New York City. The consensus is that this impedes their ability to obtain good talent and I would say that the events of the last couple of weeks have demonstrated that with spectacular clarity.
At least in my case, the impression has nothing to do with their operation as a remote company -- I'm a full-time remote worker and I learned about GitLab's atrocious salary formulae when I was checking them out as a potential employer because I wanted to move to an all-remote company (instead of the partially-remote company I work in now).
I'm sure that most of GitLab's engineers are good engineers relative to their experience levels. I'm also sure a small handful who accidentally align with their salary formula are senior in their particular fields. And I'm thirdly sure that no one with any inkling of experience in running a stable, reliable, production-level service and infrastructure has been allowed any fractional amount of influence in their infrastructure and deployment procedures.
> Mark my words, the board members from the VC firms will be removed by the VC partners
I have never, ever, seen this. Every firm has its own internal politics [1] but rarely if ever would they do this. They are more likely to just ignore it.
There is a belief that it takes a decade to tell if a VC is any good or not, and that includes "learning experiences" (all on the LP's dime of course).
> Then VC firms will put an experienced CEO and CTO in place
Now this I have seen. It even works sometimes (e.g. Eric Schmidt/Google).
[1] I have had a firm invest in which all decisions were made by a single partner. I also had a firm invest (a sizable sum!) in which other senior partners never met me and only learned what my company even did when I gave a presentation at one of their LP meetings. Also some very large funds allow senior partners to make small seed investments ("science projects") without formal approval from the partnership.
I have never, ever, seen this. Every firm has its own internal politics [1] but rarely if ever would they do this. They are more likely to just ignore it.
There is a belief that it takes a decade to tell if a VC is any good or not, and that includes "learning experiences" (all on the LP's dime of course).
> Then VC firms will put an experienced CEO and CTO in place
Now this I have seen. It even works sometimes (e.g. Eric Schmidt/Google).
[1] I have had a firm invest in which all decisions were made by a single partner. I also had a firm invest (a sizable sum!) in which other senior partners never met me and only learned what my company even did when I gave a presentation at one of their LP meetings. Also some very large funds allow senior partners to make small seed investments ("science projects") without formal approval from the partnership.
At a startup I worked at, the VP of Engineering was brilliant. He was probably the smartest person I've ever worked for, and the most hard working. He was online almost all hours of the day, working. He also insisted on a 9-to-5 schedule for all the engineers, because he believed that killing your engineers with work was not a scalable way to build a team. He was great.
But the first month I was there, I kept pressing him on what our disaster recovery plan was. His answers were weak at best. It was never tested, and he only had broad ideas of how much time it would take for a full recovery. I don't understand his reticence for testing full disaster recovery, but as everyone knows, unless you have tested DR, you don't have DR.
It was very scary, but in the several years I was there, we never had the database go down hard and lose data. But that was more blind luck than anything else. If we had a data outage, it would have probably been worse than the Gitlab's outage by far.
But the first month I was there, I kept pressing him on what our disaster recovery plan was. His answers were weak at best. It was never tested, and he only had broad ideas of how much time it would take for a full recovery. I don't understand his reticence for testing full disaster recovery, but as everyone knows, unless you have tested DR, you don't have DR.
It was very scary, but in the several years I was there, we never had the database go down hard and lose data. But that was more blind luck than anything else. If we had a data outage, it would have probably been worse than the Gitlab's outage by far.
Maybe in his own cocky way, his disaster recovery plan was to be smart enough to never have a disaster. The problem with this approach is that it only works for a small company, and many people figure out the hard way that smarts don't scale.
Or maybe it was a small startup where him and the poster were the only tech guys and they struggled to performs all the tasks to be done, not limited to backup and DR.
I know somebody who knows the guy who deleted the data that caused the outage, and in his words (the guy who knows the GitLab employee), the GitLab engineer is one of the smartest people he's ever known--in fact, he's actually brilliant. So you can rest assured that the data loss wasn't caused by a an inexperienced kid.
They also openly pay well below market rate, so they should expect to get what they pay for.
Can you elaborate on that?
For instance I just looked at their jobs listings and they advertise a range for annual compensation, the high end of that range looks about right for the locations I checked SF, and London in the UK for PE positions.
https://about.gitlab.com/jobs/production-engineer/
For instance I just looked at their jobs listings and they advertise a range for annual compensation, the high end of that range looks about right for the locations I checked SF, and London in the UK for PE positions.
https://about.gitlab.com/jobs/production-engineer/
Massive thread on this yesterday (with multiple appearances from GitLab staffers) at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13608463 .
The tl;dr is that they start out with a kind of OK but not very interesting rate for New York City. Then they punish residents of other cities based on how much cheaper the rent in their city is than the rent in NYC.
For example, if the cost of rent in your city is 35% the cost of rent in NYC (as determined by the third-party rent index they reference), your salary multiplier will be 0.35, meaning GitLab will offer someone in NYC 130k for that job, but they'll only offer you 45.5k. The experience modifiers range from -20% to +20% so they're not going to help much.
As NYC is literally one of the top five most expensive real estate markets on the planet, most non-NYC cities get totally pummeled by GitLab's salary calculator, and the result is what we see here: an enterprise with $30M in funding that can't figure out how to make backups.
The tl;dr is that they start out with a kind of OK but not very interesting rate for New York City. Then they punish residents of other cities based on how much cheaper the rent in their city is than the rent in NYC.
For example, if the cost of rent in your city is 35% the cost of rent in NYC (as determined by the third-party rent index they reference), your salary multiplier will be 0.35, meaning GitLab will offer someone in NYC 130k for that job, but they'll only offer you 45.5k. The experience modifiers range from -20% to +20% so they're not going to help much.
As NYC is literally one of the top five most expensive real estate markets on the planet, most non-NYC cities get totally pummeled by GitLab's salary calculator, and the result is what we see here: an enterprise with $30M in funding that can't figure out how to make backups.
Using that same job calculator that you used (for the developer position) near the bottom of this page: https://about.gitlab.com/jobs/developer/, the rates are way way off from my area.
They are out of their minds if they think the top rate for a Senior engineer in Salt Lake City with above average experience is $78k. Most other areas also seem pretty low from what I've looked into but I suppose a few areas could be outliers in their calculator.
Their docs on the calculator are here: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-c...
It's a bit strange that they cut or raise your pay by that calculator when you move cities.
They are out of their minds if they think the top rate for a Senior engineer in Salt Lake City with above average experience is $78k. Most other areas also seem pretty low from what I've looked into but I suppose a few areas could be outliers in their calculator.
Their docs on the calculator are here: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-operations/global-c...
It's a bit strange that they cut or raise your pay by that calculator when you move cities.
>It's a bit strange that they cut or raise your pay by that calculator when you move cities."
That is odd. Usually if you make more based on your previous location a company won't actually claw anything back you just will likely not be getting any raises.
That is odd. Usually if you make more based on your previous location a company won't actually claw anything back you just will likely not be getting any raises.
It's a bit odd that living in Tokyo you get 90k. While living in SF you get 220k. I'm fairly certain the rent difference isn't 10k per month.
Supply and demand
Of what? A developer in that location? What is that benefit?
Having worked on both coasts, I can say that the quality is the same. Culture and quantity appears to be the biggest difference.
Having worked on both coasts, I can say that the quality is the same. Culture and quantity appears to be the biggest difference.
Yep a developer in that location. The market puts a high price on that. Regardless of same quality people being cheaper elsewhere. If you think the market is wrong then go try to arbitrage it. Maybe you can...
Wow, their offers for a junior dev in Madison is like a third of Epic's starting salary. That's brutal...
Maxed out everything in my city (Cleveland) before I was able to reach a salary I'd consider, and I'm hardly a Senior engineer.
I wouldn't call their salary range a spit in the face, but its probably around $20k below market rates where I live. Benefits are competitive in my opinion.
I wouldn't call their salary range a spit in the face, but its probably around $20k below market rates where I live. Benefits are competitive in my opinion.
Well, it's hard to judge the algorithm. Some numbers are decent, if you are given "lead with lots of experience".
1) It's hard to tell how they assign rank. If they accept any programmer that shows up, the rates are fine. If they have Google level interviews to filter for only Google level candidates, who will join at "junior" level, it's terrible.
2) The numbers are in dollars, thus they are utterly meaningless. It's not a job, it's gambling with the exchange rate and the exchange fees.
1) It's hard to tell how they assign rank. If they accept any programmer that shows up, the rates are fine. If they have Google level interviews to filter for only Google level candidates, who will join at "junior" level, it's terrible.
2) The numbers are in dollars, thus they are utterly meaningless. It's not a job, it's gambling with the exchange rate and the exchange fees.
Compensation is more than just salary
Read through their benefits, they are competitive, but nowhere near enough to make up for the difference in salary.
>> the root cause is you have no senior engineers who have been through this before
They openly publish their database hostnames in this postmortem (db1.cluster.gitlab.com and db2.cluster.gitlab.com). These actually have public DNS that resolves. The last straw: port 22 on each server is running an open sshd server (the fact that password auth is disabled is of little consolation).
A production database server should NEVER HAVE a public IP address to start with. This is simply unacceptable and proves they don't have a single person qualified to handle infrastructure. Their only concern is that their developers can ssh into every production server without having to deal with vpns or firewalls.
Huge red flag that your data cannot be trusted.
They openly publish their database hostnames in this postmortem (db1.cluster.gitlab.com and db2.cluster.gitlab.com). These actually have public DNS that resolves. The last straw: port 22 on each server is running an open sshd server (the fact that password auth is disabled is of little consolation).
A production database server should NEVER HAVE a public IP address to start with. This is simply unacceptable and proves they don't have a single person qualified to handle infrastructure. Their only concern is that their developers can ssh into every production server without having to deal with vpns or firewalls.
Huge red flag that your data cannot be trusted.
I can't tell if this is some kind of joke or not.
There's absolutely nothing wrong, whatsoever, with having a public IP address on a production database server.
There's absolutely nothing wrong, whatsoever, with having a public IP address on a production database server.
I wouldn't say there's "absolutely nothing wrong with it". Someone may have a valid use case to leave a database server exposed to the public internet, but they probably don't.
The only things that should be public facing are things that clients need to access directly. In most cases, that's just an HTTP server. In GitLab's case, it's an HTTP server and a git server.
One of the most important principles of infrastructure security is to minimize the attack surface. No matter how locked down you have it, there are always zero days and other exploits out there. This is a concern even if you block the database port at the firewall but leave some other services (like SSH) open; if any of those services get compromised, it has the potential to allow for the compromise of the rest of the box.
If there's no need for the public to connect to the server, there's no need to take the risk of leaving any of its services open. And if there's no need to have its services open, there's no need for the box to even be addressable from the public internet (i.e., no reason to have a public IP address).
Put the server on the internal network and connect over a secure mechanism like VPN and not only do you not have to worry about strangers connecting to your servers, you don't have to worry about whitelisting or blacklisting individual IPs in your firewall (instead, you whitelist the applicable internal subnets, which should also be restricted based on resource access level), you don't have to worry about your firewall's rules getting wiped for whatever reason and accidentally letting the whole planet in (common if you use iptables, most distros manually require the admin to configure iptables-restore to run on boot), don't have to worry about someone zero-daying your SSH or FTP daemon, don't have to worry about the box being affected by network-level attacks like DDoS, which can sometimes target whole subnets, and so forth. Just much tidier and safer all around.
The only things that should be public facing are things that clients need to access directly. In most cases, that's just an HTTP server. In GitLab's case, it's an HTTP server and a git server.
One of the most important principles of infrastructure security is to minimize the attack surface. No matter how locked down you have it, there are always zero days and other exploits out there. This is a concern even if you block the database port at the firewall but leave some other services (like SSH) open; if any of those services get compromised, it has the potential to allow for the compromise of the rest of the box.
If there's no need for the public to connect to the server, there's no need to take the risk of leaving any of its services open. And if there's no need to have its services open, there's no need for the box to even be addressable from the public internet (i.e., no reason to have a public IP address).
Put the server on the internal network and connect over a secure mechanism like VPN and not only do you not have to worry about strangers connecting to your servers, you don't have to worry about whitelisting or blacklisting individual IPs in your firewall (instead, you whitelist the applicable internal subnets, which should also be restricted based on resource access level), you don't have to worry about your firewall's rules getting wiped for whatever reason and accidentally letting the whole planet in (common if you use iptables, most distros manually require the admin to configure iptables-restore to run on boot), don't have to worry about someone zero-daying your SSH or FTP daemon, don't have to worry about the box being affected by network-level attacks like DDoS, which can sometimes target whole subnets, and so forth. Just much tidier and safer all around.
Little correction: HTTP servers should not be publicly accessible. Only a couple of load balancers need to be accessible.
Firstly, what do you think HTTP load balancers are, if not HTTP servers?
Secondly, why would anyone use a load balancer? Almost every website in existence doesn't need a load balancer.
Secondly, why would anyone use a load balancer? Almost every website in existence doesn't need a load balancer.
A web server runs applications, a load balancer distributes incoming traffic. They have different purposes.
Almost every public website in existence use multiple web servers and load balancers to balance between them. That's the only way to do failover and handle more traffic than a single box can take.
Almost every public website in existence use multiple web servers and load balancers to balance between them. That's the only way to do failover and handle more traffic than a single box can take.
> There's absolutely nothing wrong, whatsoever, with having a public IP address on a production database server.
Exactly. The technical problems are not the root cause. How did the existing processes (or lack thereof) fail? How did the organization fail?
Like we haven't seen similar screwups at other, more 'proffesional' companies. They may shrug it under the rug better, but that's all.
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Exactly, I feel like it was nobody's job to make sure everything was resilient to failures