Jawbone is being liquidated as its CEO launches a related health startup(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Jawbone is being liquidated as its CEO launches a related health startup
https://techcrunch.com/2017/07/06/jawbone-is-being-liquidated-as-its-ceo-launches-a-related-health-startup
199 comments
The days of consumer hardware company's access to startup capital is over. With so many high profile VC backed (Fitbit, GoPro, Hello, Juicero, Coin, Pearl, ect.) and kickstarted (Lily.ai, Pebble) failures, no one is willing to risk it.
I'd ascribe the failure to the commodification of the fitness tracker and increasingly platform-driven smart speaker space. Here are some companies that have raised big rounds recently:
+ SimpliSafe raised $57M from Sequoia
+ Ring raised $100M+ from DFJ
+ Formlabs raised $50M from Foundry
+ Sphero raised $23M in April
+ Anki raised $52.5M in PE
I'm not sure what the future holds for Anki/Sphero, but the first three examples have what GoPro/FitBit didn't — a clear recurring business model. This is a good blog post on the subject:
https://blog.bolt.io/the-3-business-models-that-matter-for-c...
+ SimpliSafe raised $57M from Sequoia
+ Ring raised $100M+ from DFJ
+ Formlabs raised $50M from Foundry
+ Sphero raised $23M in April
+ Anki raised $52.5M in PE
I'm not sure what the future holds for Anki/Sphero, but the first three examples have what GoPro/FitBit didn't — a clear recurring business model. This is a good blog post on the subject:
https://blog.bolt.io/the-3-business-models-that-matter-for-c...
>SimpliSafe
We use SimpliSafe at work. It solves far more problems than the "commodity hardware" issue. It solves the alarm ecosystem and shitty contracts that legacy carriers like ADT trap you into. It's definitely a good model going forward, as you noted.
EDIT: Additionally, it solves a "boring" problem, which not many companies want to tackle. Yet there's tons and tons of stable recurring revenue in this space that requires almost no additional innovation. Just stability, no-bullshit, and good customer service.
We use SimpliSafe at work. It solves far more problems than the "commodity hardware" issue. It solves the alarm ecosystem and shitty contracts that legacy carriers like ADT trap you into. It's definitely a good model going forward, as you noted.
EDIT: Additionally, it solves a "boring" problem, which not many companies want to tackle. Yet there's tons and tons of stable recurring revenue in this space that requires almost no additional innovation. Just stability, no-bullshit, and good customer service.
> stability, no-bullshit, and good customer service
I'm interning at a recently (12 months ago) acquired standout in the e-commerce provider field, and yesterday I was at a talk where the CTO/co-founder attributed their now multibillion dollar business to the exact same thing.
There are plenty of dumb problems that people just want to not worry about.
I will say, the downside is they spent about 7 or 8 years before going public, and another 4-5 before being acquired (for about 4.5x their IPO price). It wasn't quick money, because you can't prove stability in a year or two, but it is a very powerful business model.
I'm interning at a recently (12 months ago) acquired standout in the e-commerce provider field, and yesterday I was at a talk where the CTO/co-founder attributed their now multibillion dollar business to the exact same thing.
There are plenty of dumb problems that people just want to not worry about.
I will say, the downside is they spent about 7 or 8 years before going public, and another 4-5 before being acquired (for about 4.5x their IPO price). It wasn't quick money, because you can't prove stability in a year or two, but it is a very powerful business model.
> Just stability, no-bullshit, and good customer service.
VC mechanics are the opposite of this, they are built for hype-based financial engineering to sell companies to richer and richer investor groups. Product and revenue is secondary.
VC mechanics are the opposite of this, they are built for hype-based financial engineering to sell companies to richer and richer investor groups. Product and revenue is secondary.
I would argue that Ring is the primary consumer success that the VCs are looking at right now. Everything else is not looking good.
Simplisafe raised the $57m in 2014 and seems to have been able to make a sustainable business without VC money. Form Labs is seemingly (with the rest of 3D printing) moving away from consumer to B2B focus.
I find Sphero/Anki raises surprising and wouldn't be surprised if they had Chinese Funds leading the rounds.
Simplisafe raised the $57m in 2014 and seems to have been able to make a sustainable business without VC money. Form Labs is seemingly (with the rest of 3D printing) moving away from consumer to B2B focus.
I find Sphero/Anki raises surprising and wouldn't be surprised if they had Chinese Funds leading the rounds.
I love my Sphero BB8. Cutest little toy I've ever had. I can't see them taking over the world though, that's a big round comparatively I would think
Sphero is worth it simply because of connections, they're in Disney's Incubator program (2014):
https://thewaltdisneycompany.com/the-walt-disney-company-ann...
Which pretty much assures increased growth as they produce more toys for Disney IP. Who knows they could also be using the tech in their parks or for production purposes.
https://thewaltdisneycompany.com/the-walt-disney-company-ann...
Which pretty much assures increased growth as they produce more toys for Disney IP. Who knows they could also be using the tech in their parks or for production purposes.
Do you think Disney creates characters to help with toy sales?
I know that was a thing in the days of GI Joe.
The blog post is from Aug. 2015 and asks:
> What makes today’s hardware successes like GoPro, Arista, Fitbit, Nest, Dropcam, Zayo, and Oculus different?
GoPro, Fitbit, Nest, Dropcam (part of Nest) are struggling. Hardware is hard.
> What makes today’s hardware successes like GoPro, Arista, Fitbit, Nest, Dropcam, Zayo, and Oculus different?
GoPro, Fitbit, Nest, Dropcam (part of Nest) are struggling. Hardware is hard.
Can somebody provide more context about Nest's struggles?
I understand that their new products may not be selling that well (lots of cash for a CO detector / camera / etc) but what about the thermostat business where they have partnerships with most every energy provider and their setup process / support is great? What articles did I miss?
I ask because of self-interest: I just installed a couple and I appreciate them, and I'd hate to see the software support fall by the wayside / be decommissioned by their parent company.
EDIT: I'm reading about not enough revenue on the acquisition price and leadership issues, but I find it hard to believe a company with a solid thermostat product being sold in outlets across the country would collapse, especially given the current utility partnership incentives. That said, I've been surprised before.
I understand that their new products may not be selling that well (lots of cash for a CO detector / camera / etc) but what about the thermostat business where they have partnerships with most every energy provider and their setup process / support is great? What articles did I miss?
I ask because of self-interest: I just installed a couple and I appreciate them, and I'd hate to see the software support fall by the wayside / be decommissioned by their parent company.
EDIT: I'm reading about not enough revenue on the acquisition price and leadership issues, but I find it hard to believe a company with a solid thermostat product being sold in outlets across the country would collapse, especially given the current utility partnership incentives. That said, I've been surprised before.
Three problems. First selling to Google automatically put Nest into the "Are they going to sell my home data" category. Denials to the contrary that's Google's business model for everything so naturally people assume it's going to happen.
Second rush to market for their smoke detector Protect caused a debacle when it was discovered it was far too easy to silence a real alarm so they were all recalled, etc.
Third Nest has no relationship or respect in the home HVAC industry. Pretty much every HVAC tech and owner I've spoken to has a strong dislike for Nest. And while installing the Nest isn't that hard eventually everyone is going to have HVAC issues that need professional repair and people will get an earful about their Nest. This gets around quickly.
Of course now there's more competition also by traditional HVAC companies like Honeywell. Although I had a Nest in my previous house when I purchased a smart thermostat for my son for his house warming I purchased a Honeywell just for the reasons above.
Second rush to market for their smoke detector Protect caused a debacle when it was discovered it was far too easy to silence a real alarm so they were all recalled, etc.
Third Nest has no relationship or respect in the home HVAC industry. Pretty much every HVAC tech and owner I've spoken to has a strong dislike for Nest. And while installing the Nest isn't that hard eventually everyone is going to have HVAC issues that need professional repair and people will get an earful about their Nest. This gets around quickly.
Of course now there's more competition also by traditional HVAC companies like Honeywell. Although I had a Nest in my previous house when I purchased a smart thermostat for my son for his house warming I purchased a Honeywell just for the reasons above.
Thanks for this summary. My HVAC company does not install Nests and recommended a Honeywell on their end as a smart thermostat. I'd be interested to hear why the techs hate it so much as I've had a good experience so far and having one in the house wouldn't preclude you from doing anything with regard to replacing the actual systems involved. Thanks again for the thoughtful reply.
Yes, hardware is hard. Consumer discretionary hardware is especially hard. Expect ups and downs. Just because a company is struggling now doesn't mean its success is over. (I know that's not exactly what you were saying; just thought your comment could use that clarifying follow up.)
Why are you talking about GoPro and FitBit in the past tense?
I think the problem with hardware startups is more subtle. Unless you open up a fundamentally new market segment or find a niche application, your product is asking to be commodified. Smartwatches and fitness trackers were too obvious a category and Samsung, Apple, etc. were sure to swoop in and win. There really is no distinguishing feature for Jawbone or Fitbit. Other hardware startups like Anki are doing stuff that's niche and novel in areas unlikely to be ever entered by Apple/Google/etc.
The technology component of Jawbone or Fitbit was, even in 2007, very very basic and hardly novel. There is literally nothing in Jawbone or Fitbit that is super novel: their sensors aren't ground breaking, their algorithms are (presumably) meh, etc.
VC's hope that these companies will mature to become superstars and achieve the level of tech quality of Qualcomm, FB, GE, Intel, Google, etc. in their respective markets. This didn't happen with Jawbone or Fitbit.
The technology component of Jawbone or Fitbit was, even in 2007, very very basic and hardly novel. There is literally nothing in Jawbone or Fitbit that is super novel: their sensors aren't ground breaking, their algorithms are (presumably) meh, etc.
VC's hope that these companies will mature to become superstars and achieve the level of tech quality of Qualcomm, FB, GE, Intel, Google, etc. in their respective markets. This didn't happen with Jawbone or Fitbit.
What about hardware that doesn't so directly rely on an information network, such as sous vide (Anova was recently acquired [0]) and appliances like the Roomba? e.g. I'm sure Google engineers could eventually design a great sous vide, but not much about a sous vide does is amplified by the Google ecosystem. I suppose those kinds of things, as useful and coveted as they are by their fans, could reach elite status in their niche markets, but the highest potential valuation would be too small beans for some VC.
[0] https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/06/anova-electrolux/
[0] https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/06/anova-electrolux/
Roomba came out in 2002 so it predates the current round of VC hardware companies by quite a number of years. I feel like Roomba has been around long enough that they have strong brand recognition, even if their product is cloned and commodified.
The Instant Pot also comes to mind, though I have no idea how they are funded...
See https://www.fitbit.com/technology for a partial and outdated list of novel Fitbit technology.
There are 3 items on that list, and all 3 have been present in all of Fitbit's competitors for years. Even if Fitbit was first mover on these technologies, they've long since lost any unique ownership of any of these 3.
Read the details. Yes, Apple Watch has some form of heart-rate monitoring. But what's described on that page is continuous all-day monitoring. Fitbit has better technology to better serve the consumer.
Yes, you can tell Apple Watch what kind of workout you're about to do and it will record it. But what's described on that page is automatically detecting and recording a type of workout based on motion. Fitbit has better technology to better serve the consumer.
Yes, you can track sleep with a third-party Apple Watch app if you're careful about when you recharge the device. But that page says "your Fitbit tracker can record your time spent in light, deep & REM sleep, as well as your time awake, then distills that information in easy-to-reach graphs in the Fitbit app."
There have been niche products that supposedly tracked sleep stages but they've been reviewed as inaccurate. Fitbit has unique ownership of this technology and major players haven't even claimed to compete with it.
Yes, you can tell Apple Watch what kind of workout you're about to do and it will record it. But what's described on that page is automatically detecting and recording a type of workout based on motion. Fitbit has better technology to better serve the consumer.
Yes, you can track sleep with a third-party Apple Watch app if you're careful about when you recharge the device. But that page says "your Fitbit tracker can record your time spent in light, deep & REM sleep, as well as your time awake, then distills that information in easy-to-reach graphs in the Fitbit app."
There have been niche products that supposedly tracked sleep stages but they've been reviewed as inaccurate. Fitbit has unique ownership of this technology and major players haven't even claimed to compete with it.
What about Apple watch heart-rate monitoring is not continuous and all-day?
Continuous monitoring is only claimed during a recorded workout https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204666
That page doesn't say specifically, but my recollection is that it's otherwise every 10 minutes if you're still. In non-workout mode they don't measure heart rate if you're moving; presumably not accurate enough.
All-day heart-rate monitoring can only be claimed by devices with a battery life of at least a day.
That page doesn't say specifically, but my recollection is that it's otherwise every 10 minutes if you're still. In non-workout mode they don't measure heart rate if you're moving; presumably not accurate enough.
All-day heart-rate monitoring can only be claimed by devices with a battery life of at least a day.
Neither page offered any sort of metric on what constitutes 'accurate'. so how do you know FitBit doesn't just have a lower standard than Apple does?
right... I mean "continuous" on a digital device is still going to have some sample rate... Apple Watch has a 10 minute sample rate most of the time and some higher sample rate when they are doing "continuous" monitoring during a workout. Fitbit must have a great way to store that data if they really are doing "continuous" monitoring all day.
> Smartwatches and fitness trackers were too obvious a category and Samsung, Apple, etc. were sure to swoop in and win.
They swooped in but wouldn't say that they won. At least in the UK I seem to see more people with a Fitbit than with an Apple Watch.
They swooped in but wouldn't say that they won. At least in the UK I seem to see more people with a Fitbit than with an Apple Watch.
Fitbit sells at 1/4 the price of the Apple watch. Apple is getting all the revenues.
I'd argue that the incumbents wouldn't have thought it possible to build a smartwatch or fitness tracker if it wasn't for these start-ups, though. They're just really good at acquiring and copying.
When the iPhone first came out, the way you measured your heart rate was by putting your finger over the camera on the back of the phone.
When the iPhone first came out, the way you measured your heart rate was by putting your finger over the camera on the back of the phone.
> They're just really good at acquiring and copying.
Right, but that's why the products become commoditized. The inventors get an early burst of success and easy money, but everyone else figures out how to make similar products very quickly.
Even smartphones are commoditized. The iPhone and the Samsung phones are the rare examples of commodity hardware that can beat the competition on the strength of their software experiences. The other companies are fighting tooth and nail in a textbook example of a commoditized market where the profits are difficult to eke out.
Right, but that's why the products become commoditized. The inventors get an early burst of success and easy money, but everyone else figures out how to make similar products very quickly.
Even smartphones are commoditized. The iPhone and the Samsung phones are the rare examples of commodity hardware that can beat the competition on the strength of their software experiences. The other companies are fighting tooth and nail in a textbook example of a commoditized market where the profits are difficult to eke out.
There is competition among fitness trackers. Fitness trackers are not commoditized. There's a difference.
https://ycharts.com/companies/FIT/gross_profit_margin
https://ycharts.com/companies/FIT/gross_profit_margin
> When the iPhone first came out, the way you measured your heart rate was by putting your finger over the camera on the back of the phone.
Actually, no. Pulse-oximeters were always quite cheap. Also, Casio had heart rate (although not continuous) monitors on some of their watches for many years.
Actually, no. Pulse-oximeters were always quite cheap. Also, Casio had heart rate (although not continuous) monitors on some of their watches for many years.
iPhone 2G did not have any heart rate monitoring...
> The days of consumer hardware company's access to startup capital is over.
So I haven't worked at a hardware start-up but it seemed pretty difficult even before these companies to raise funding versus a pure software play. I'm not necessarily convinced this makes it easier or harder. Is there a specific reason you think it will be harder now?
Also, for what it's worth, Fitbit and GoPro are still going. I'm convinced Fitbit can get back on the growth curve as long as they can get a new product out the door that consumers want. Tall order for sure but I don't count them as a failure yet.
GoPro want to move to doing software more so than hardware. Considering their software has always considered to be lackluster to borderline terrible I'm less convinced they will turn it around but also not yet willing to say they're a failure.
So I haven't worked at a hardware start-up but it seemed pretty difficult even before these companies to raise funding versus a pure software play. I'm not necessarily convinced this makes it easier or harder. Is there a specific reason you think it will be harder now?
Also, for what it's worth, Fitbit and GoPro are still going. I'm convinced Fitbit can get back on the growth curve as long as they can get a new product out the door that consumers want. Tall order for sure but I don't count them as a failure yet.
GoPro want to move to doing software more so than hardware. Considering their software has always considered to be lackluster to borderline terrible I'm less convinced they will turn it around but also not yet willing to say they're a failure.
I worked at a VC funded hardware start up for the first eight years of my career. You'll never read about it here though; we made digital pathology scanners. When I left we had sold the company for ~300M and were bringing in about ~30M / year in revenue.
I guess my point is that there is more going on in the VC space then you'll read about on HN.
I guess my point is that there is more going on in the VC space then you'll read about on HN.
This goes well with the great-grand parent's comment on consumer hardware not being as attractive to investors. I think a lot of it lies in the complexity of the product. A smart watch or rugged video camera seems trivial to replicate and commoditise from an investment and technology standpoint compared to digital pathology scanners.
I'll look at the article at some point, Jawbone had multiple best selling products -- bluetooth speakers being one -- no idea how that covered investment. Hell, A16Z gave all of Skype one of the speakers 6 years ago as a thank you. They did some nice hardware.
What I do know, per your point, investment in and around hardware startups is not publicized. I wonder how some of the networking hardware startups that started the carriers of those I know (and benefited me) would be taken now.
Cisco / Nokia / etc. hardware acquisitions apparently aren't HN sexy.
What I do know, per your point, investment in and around hardware startups is not publicized. I wonder how some of the networking hardware startups that started the carriers of those I know (and benefited me) would be taken now.
Cisco / Nokia / etc. hardware acquisitions apparently aren't HN sexy.
It would be really fantastic to hear more if you're willing to share!
That's hardly consumer hardware...
In 2014, there was piles of "success stories" for VCs to look at and the market was hot. Most of those successes have turned into down rounds or complete shutdowns in the last year.
It seems like the problem is whoever pointed them as successful... successful ideas, maybe, but not companies.
Fitbit lost me when they refused to support HealthKit. As it stands I'm not sure they can escape their demise as the market transitions from limited function devices to multi function devices like the Apple Watch. They strike me as getting rolled over the same way Diamond, Archos, and Creative got crushed by the iPod.
GoPro has a similar problem. Outside of special circumstances most smartphone cameras are now good enough for most consumer needs and will only get better. I think they could survive if they target the extreme sports type niche but otherwise I don't see them achieving escape velocity.
Both could be good acquisition targets a la Withings and Nokia. But the number of possible buyers is limited. Microsoft is possibly the only one that comes to mind that doesn't have anything in either space although given the failure of Windows Phone I'm not sure they have the desire to try something similar in a different market.
GoPro has a similar problem. Outside of special circumstances most smartphone cameras are now good enough for most consumer needs and will only get better. I think they could survive if they target the extreme sports type niche but otherwise I don't see them achieving escape velocity.
Both could be good acquisition targets a la Withings and Nokia. But the number of possible buyers is limited. Microsoft is possibly the only one that comes to mind that doesn't have anything in either space although given the failure of Windows Phone I'm not sure they have the desire to try something similar in a different market.
Actually the iPod was not a multi-function device. Palm Pilot was. But it turned out the specialized device was the one that transitioned into the multi-function device people wanted.
The iPod touch is essentially an iPhone without a cellular connection.
But the iPod Touch didn’t crush Archos, diamond, and Rio. It came about after the iPhone was in the market...
According to Wikipedia both Diamond and Archos players were DOA by 2005, two years before the iPhone was released. Creative struggled on for a few years post iPhone. 2005 was the year of the iPod Photo and the iPod Video, although the beginning of the iPod as multi-function device started in 2002 with addition of the PDA functionality.
By 2006 Apple had 72-74% of the MP3 player market, with SanDisk, Creative, Zune, Sony, Samsung, and other accounting for the remainder. I seem to recall most of the damage was done by the iPod Mini.
By 2006 Apple had 72-74% of the MP3 player market, with SanDisk, Creative, Zune, Sony, Samsung, and other accounting for the remainder. I seem to recall most of the damage was done by the iPod Mini.
GoPro is still going, but it's not going well. Its stock peaked at $86.97 in Oct 2014 and it's at $8.00 today.
It's so easy for Shenzhen to just copy them though. There's nothing defensible about hardware.
Note that if Shenzen companies started publishing proposals on Kickstarter, they could make a success: Compared to SV products which get delivered in a year or two, they could churn prototypes in a few weeks, build confidence with investors and repeat. I hear people screaming "but they're not reliable/trustworthy!", but you can build trustworthiness by delivering bigger and bigger products, and, actually, Kickstarter would benefit from working in an environment which doesn't entirely rely on the producer's good will.
They already do, see uArm. At one point they were listed as a US company, but they seem to have updated their page. I have nothing bad to say about the experience - my robot arm arrived on time, it pretty much works, some niggles with the software but they seem to be fixing it.
No problems with Shenzhen companies running Kickstarters, after all they can probably have much better relationships with the factories than Westerners are likely to.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ufactory/uarm-put-a-min...
No problems with Shenzhen companies running Kickstarters, after all they can probably have much better relationships with the factories than Westerners are likely to.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ufactory/uarm-put-a-min...
honest question: why then did no one copy the iPod, and no one has copied the iPhone with any success?
as soon as the iPod came out way back in the day, the criticism was that it would soon be copied. No one ever did, and I worked in the music business at the time and was familiar with everything on the market. nothing ever came close, apple made a ton of money.
it's a common thing to say that it's not defensible/can be copied, but I don't see that happening always.
as soon as the iPod came out way back in the day, the criticism was that it would soon be copied. No one ever did, and I worked in the music business at the time and was familiar with everything on the market. nothing ever came close, apple made a ton of money.
it's a common thing to say that it's not defensible/can be copied, but I don't see that happening always.
Wasn't the iPod successful because you could get music online legally and easily for it?
Memory is hazy, but I seem to recall that without the iTunes store/application you had to either mess around ripping CDs, or use illegal downloads.
The one hardware innovation the iPod had was to use the teeny hard drives just coming on to the market at the time, when everyone else was using flash. Flash was the right solution ultimately, but for a while the HD worked around the problem that Flash was too small for a decent set of songs. Reputedly Jobs decided to take most of the volume supply of the small drives initially, preventing copycats from executing.
Memory is hazy, but I seem to recall that without the iTunes store/application you had to either mess around ripping CDs, or use illegal downloads.
The one hardware innovation the iPod had was to use the teeny hard drives just coming on to the market at the time, when everyone else was using flash. Flash was the right solution ultimately, but for a while the HD worked around the problem that Flash was too small for a decent set of songs. Reputedly Jobs decided to take most of the volume supply of the small drives initially, preventing copycats from executing.
I think the interface was way more important. Archos beat Apple to market with little harddrives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archos_Jukebox_series#Jukebox_... ) but the player is pretty something or other looking and has a bunch of chincy buttons. Even the mechanical clickwheel was vastly better than pressing a little button a couple dozen times.
I had an archos with a 20gb hard drive in way back when. Loved that little machine, and it worked great as an external drive too.
I'm under the impression Google/Android had pretty good success in copying the iPhone.
Samsung too.
Having good software stack is invaluable isn't it? Having Shenzhen clone and crank out a similar piece of hardware which has the worst minimally functional app isn't going to help anybody?
It's also hard: see Samsung's crappy attempts at replacing the Google apps that no one uses and/or is poorly coded. Also see Bixby failing at English so far.
While factually true, I think that misses GP's point?
If you take a look at the context of their question, they are asking why no one has killed the iPod by copying it.
I suppose the answer is probably as said by rokhayakebe elsewhere in this thread, "Copying the hardware is easy. Copying the ecosystem is a different challenge."
If you take a look at the context of their question, they are asking why no one has killed the iPod by copying it.
I suppose the answer is probably as said by rokhayakebe elsewhere in this thread, "Copying the hardware is easy. Copying the ecosystem is a different challenge."
I think the simplest answer is that apple simply kept innovating at a pace that shenzen couldn't match. Back in the iPod's hey-day, every new release was a groundbreaking improvement in miniaturization. The other OEMs were racing to copy the iPod mini while Apple was developing the iPod nano, or the iPod Colour while apple was working on the iPod video.
and, of course, as another reply says the software has always been a big part of the iPod.
and, of course, as another reply says the software has always been a big part of the iPod.
Though it seems counterintuitive, I think it's the lack of a patent system in China that prevents its people from being innovative. Without a guaranteed monopoly, people are less likely to take risks and just turn to methods that are known to turn a profit (replicating foreign products and/or focusing on lowering manufacturing costs).
But now, the economy of Shenzhen has matured to the point where squeezing every ounce of production is no longer sustainable, and thus is forced to innovate. Perhaps that explains the number of hardware startups there: it's an advantage to be closely located to the manufacturer of your parts. That was also once true for Silicon Valley.
Maybe the failure of many hardware startups now can be attributed to manufacturing jobs being outsourced.
But now, the economy of Shenzhen has matured to the point where squeezing every ounce of production is no longer sustainable, and thus is forced to innovate. Perhaps that explains the number of hardware startups there: it's an advantage to be closely located to the manufacturer of your parts. That was also once true for Silicon Valley.
Maybe the failure of many hardware startups now can be attributed to manufacturing jobs being outsourced.
I don't think it's counter-intuitive at all.
I think the patent durations of hardware should be shorter, just like many here think that they should be shorter (if existant at all) for software.
Part of the issue with durations in hardware is development time. It would be nice if the duration could take into account the date of first sale rather than just the inception of the idea.
I think the patent durations of hardware should be shorter, just like many here think that they should be shorter (if existant at all) for software.
Part of the issue with durations in hardware is development time. It would be nice if the duration could take into account the date of first sale rather than just the inception of the idea.
In 2006, China was not at the stage of development where it could innovate and create brands. Today, it is Apple that can't keep up.
why then did no one copy the iPod
Apple had complete control of the small form factor harddrives. Noone else could get their hands on them. There were other MP3 players before iPod, but they were either too big, or couldn't hold enough music.
By the time flash storage caught up, it was more about fashion.
Apple had complete control of the small form factor harddrives. Noone else could get their hands on them. There were other MP3 players before iPod, but they were either too big, or couldn't hold enough music.
By the time flash storage caught up, it was more about fashion.
In broad strokes, you're pretty spot on, besides not mentioning the simplicity + usability of the software. Apple absolutely made portable music sexy (again) and reaped the benefits all the way to the iPhone juggernaut of today.
Not sure why you got down voted, but here's an up vote.
Not sure why you got down voted, but here's an up vote.
Because the magic in the iphone and ipod come primarily from software (and for the ipod, the music licensing relationships that apple alone had in the beginning.) Android hardware can be pretty good; the app ecosystem, the ecosystem in general, the clear love that Apple has for the iphone, and the control that is (generally) used in user-beneficial ways all make the iphone superior to android.
in the case of the iPod I'm not sure that was true. remember, these were the days of everyone having a bunch of mp3s on their hard drive. The actual iPod software was extremely rudimentary, and basically barely integrated with iTunes. this was still in the days of windows, keep in mind, and before apple actually launched iTunes for windows. and still, it was immediately a dominant player and not one company was able to launch a competitor _before_ apple built iTunes for windows.
The iPod wasn't that popular before Apple launched iTunes for Windows, though. So I imagine competitors were considerably less interested in it as a target.
Also, one of the iPod's major interface innovations was the click wheel - IIRC they've patented the hell out of that, so no one was about to launch a competitor.
Also, one of the iPod's major interface innovations was the click wheel - IIRC they've patented the hell out of that, so no one was about to launch a competitor.
Samsung cloned the clickwheel within 6 months.
Rhe iPod had demand.
White earphones.
Well in a way the iPhone was "copied" in that it obviously influenced the design of competitive smart phones.
Apple, however, hasn't rested on their laurels. They have kept innovating. If they had slowed down at all, the others would have eaten their lunch.
The ipod was really a story about iTunes, I think, rather than the hardware.
Apple, however, hasn't rested on their laurels. They have kept innovating. If they had slowed down at all, the others would have eaten their lunch.
The ipod was really a story about iTunes, I think, rather than the hardware.
I hate iTunes and I'm glad to be rid of it, but I really miss the iPod hardware. Driving that clickwheel by feel was so much more convenient than looking down at a touchscreen.
Well it was copied by zune and probably others. The part of the equation that is glossed over is iPod provided a soup to nuts media product. You didn't have to mess around MP3 or aac encoding stuff, they have a portal with a staggering amount of content that you could just click and download to your iPod.
Copying the hardware is easy. Copying the ecosystem is a different challenge.
Samsung had a clickwheel clones within 6 months.
Superior hardware is not why people buy Apple products. The reason why it's hard to copy the iPod and iPhone is because it's hard to replicate the Apple brand. That's why there exists a lot of products that have the same functionality but not the same market revenue.
That depends on what you make. Some things are still really hard and have things you cannot copy. In my field the hardware alone is very difficult so just copying will not work but even if you are persistent and get it done, you need a lot of external factors to go along as well which takes years. And explains some of the failures we have seen.
Why do the big corps succeed (Google, Apple, Amazon) and the startups fail. I guess all three of those have had failed hardware products and successful one as well. So they can afford a failure? Startups just need more runway?
The big ones all caught a wave and rode it, while these startups tried to create the wave. (Actually, that's not quite true - all these hardware startups were riding the wave of cheap Chinese components and free trade. It's just that it turned out the bottleneck for a hardware startup isn't manufacturing, it's customer acceptance. Apple rode the same wave with the iPhone/iPad, but they also had a well-established core competency of knowing exactly what the customer wants.)
There are still waves going on now, and there are probably some startups being founded right now that will get rich off of them. It's just that the waves probably aren't what VCs think they are.
There are still waves going on now, and there are probably some startups being founded right now that will get rich off of them. It's just that the waves probably aren't what VCs think they are.
I would say:
Amazon is putting large ads on the amazon.com homepage for it's products. I don't think if a startup had build exactly the same product they would have been succesful.
Apple had Steve Jobs, who had both a great vision and a cult of personality that made people buy apple products. Apple didn't have another major successful new product since Steve passed.
Google doesn't really have that many successful hardware products, except maybe Chromecast (which benefits integrations with youtube, chrome, etc.), Pixel (which benefited from good timing, the biggest competitor had to recall their flagship phone) and Home (which has less market share than alexa and benefits from Google's NLP technogloy).
Amazon is putting large ads on the amazon.com homepage for it's products. I don't think if a startup had build exactly the same product they would have been succesful.
Apple had Steve Jobs, who had both a great vision and a cult of personality that made people buy apple products. Apple didn't have another major successful new product since Steve passed.
Google doesn't really have that many successful hardware products, except maybe Chromecast (which benefits integrations with youtube, chrome, etc.), Pixel (which benefited from good timing, the biggest competitor had to recall their flagship phone) and Home (which has less market share than alexa and benefits from Google's NLP technogloy).
Chromecast is only successful because it's so cheap. Similar as much of Amazon Echo's success is due to the discounts they often offer. That's nothing a startup could really compete with.
> Pixel (which benefited from good timing, the biggest competitor had to recall their flagship phone)
Is it even available anywhere outside the U.S.?
Is it even available anywhere outside the U.S.?
Big corporations are ok with costs of creating a low margin hardware product because it is loss leader to other products and services with higher margins.
Bringing a hardware product to market costs a minimum of $7m in the US. At Seed/Series A, this is a huge amount of money for investors to swallow.
Bringing a hardware product to market costs a minimum of $7m in the US. At Seed/Series A, this is a huge amount of money for investors to swallow.
Not true. We built a wearable device with 50,000 units sold, and raised way under a million dollars. It can be done.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14717976
Our first Pavlok took about 2 years, and probably just over $1MM in total costs---but we presold units to cover the float.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14717976
Our first Pavlok took about 2 years, and probably just over $1MM in total costs---but we presold units to cover the float.
The big companies have a lot more money and brand behind their products. Usually they've got a massive ecosystem to keep it afloat.
It doesn't mean that they don't fail tho.
It doesn't mean that they don't fail tho.
It's kind of turned out that many of these things have turned out to just be features or sets of features of more capable hardware.
Smart hardware belongs to big players only. A hardware company needs to deal with, Design, Engineering, Marketing, Production, Sales, Customer services, etc... If any of those step is messed up, the product is over. This is why I don't recommend anyone to get involved in this kind of business.
The reasons that these products fail is usually feature creep. Whether due to Kickstarter stretch goals, or pressure from VCs, people don't know when to draw the line and ship. That's followed closely by underestimating costs and under-pricing products. After that you have the risk of developing the product you want, not the product that everyone else needs. I would never suggest anyone starts a hardware business until they've worked in one to get a feel for cost estimation.
This is no different to software, but it's a lot more problematic with hardware. Unless you plan very well, patching hardware is expensive and/or impractical. You're often much better off releasing a basic, but very functional product (i.e. your MVP) and iteratively addressing customer demands with later version.
The second is that selling complex products to consumers is really hard. If you sell stuff to industry the benchmark for smartness is often much much lower.
This is no different to software, but it's a lot more problematic with hardware. Unless you plan very well, patching hardware is expensive and/or impractical. You're often much better off releasing a basic, but very functional product (i.e. your MVP) and iteratively addressing customer demands with later version.
The second is that selling complex products to consumers is really hard. If you sell stuff to industry the benchmark for smartness is often much much lower.
As a complete outsider, my sense is that things like under costing are partially the result of modern tear-down cost estimates. Where you get a new phone, open it up, and write an article that the $700 msrp iPhone "only costs $135 to build!". No mention of scale to get those component costs, labor cost to assemble, labor cost to design, lengthy prototype phases to idepedently test new ideas and then integration test... just cost of parts. It would be like costing a cloud startup from idea to product solely based on your expected AWS charges.
Pretty much.
If your BOM cost is say $200 including labour, then you should be targeting a price of at least $600. That $200 doesn't include the cost of design, tooling and so on. If you bought a $50k CNC machine you want to get some ROI! If you go for a distributor, they're going to take 10-20% (and they may want a volume discount). You might want some room to have sales, or offer bundle discounts to attract customers. You have to ship the product, market it, support it and fund the next iteration. Why go for razor thin margins? If you have a niche, people will pay. Apple have this nailed - they are expensive because they actually price their products sensibly and they're rolling in cash as a result.
If your BOM cost is say $200 including labour, then you should be targeting a price of at least $600. That $200 doesn't include the cost of design, tooling and so on. If you bought a $50k CNC machine you want to get some ROI! If you go for a distributor, they're going to take 10-20% (and they may want a volume discount). You might want some room to have sales, or offer bundle discounts to attract customers. You have to ship the product, market it, support it and fund the next iteration. Why go for razor thin margins? If you have a niche, people will pay. Apple have this nailed - they are expensive because they actually price their products sensibly and they're rolling in cash as a result.
> The reasons that these products fail is usually feature creep.
That's part of the reason Pebble failed; they were forced (like from pressure from VCs) to expand their business and they really over extended.
But more than that, I think Pebble was dead the moment Apple, Samsung, and the other big players jumped into the market. Pebble's first mover advantage was destroyed almost immediately by the technology and marketing might of those companies.
Software is often harder for big companies and easier for small companies. Hardware works the other way.
That's part of the reason Pebble failed; they were forced (like from pressure from VCs) to expand their business and they really over extended.
But more than that, I think Pebble was dead the moment Apple, Samsung, and the other big players jumped into the market. Pebble's first mover advantage was destroyed almost immediately by the technology and marketing might of those companies.
Software is often harder for big companies and easier for small companies. Hardware works the other way.
The more money hardware companies accept, the harder they crash and burn. Every single time.
It's possible to build a consumer hardware company without significant investment --- we did it with Pavlok. Here's an article about it:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14717976
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14717976
In other words, hardware is not for children attempting get-rich-quick exit-plans.
To be fair, Jawbone predates all these companies and raised a good chunk of money in the process. Consumer hardware is hard. I had jawbone stuff many years ago - all the best to Hosain. The Jawbone story has been long, and his perseverance is unparalleled.
The best hardware startups are really "software wrapped in plastic". This provides the opportunity for more a business model that supports repeat transactions. Dropcam is just one successful example.
And I don't think is totally a bad thing! Huge rush of money the last 3 years seeking new opportunity as costs to starting up had dropped (but still high). I believe there will still be some winners that will shake out of that, and in a few years some funding will be back with many lessons learned. I suspect hardware as a way into selling recurring 100% margin software subscriptions will be the move, ala Ring, Simplisafe, Latch, etc. TBD!
Lily and Pebble also were VC Backed and each raised 15+ million
https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/pebble https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/lily-robotics#/entit...
https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/pebble https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/lily-robotics#/entit...
Money tends to be spent. The more you have, the faster you spend. Hardware companies take it the worst, because new founders don't know what they don't know.
I worked at a hardware startup, working on software for said hardware. Much smaller company than Jawbone, but a more unique and niche product.
The logistics of manufacturing and selling hardware as a small company are truly a nightmare.
The logistics of manufacturing and selling hardware as a small company are truly a nightmare.
GoPro is a failure?
GoPro closed today at 8 a share, a $1.1bn valuation [1]. They went public in 2014 at 24 (about a $3.3bn valuation) after raising a round in 2012 from Foxconn at a $2.25bn valuation.
Their revenues are falling and their operations losing cash. They have $75 million of cash on their balance sheet, less than their Q1 2017 net loss.
[1] https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AGPRO&ei=fNBeWcCjCc...
Their revenues are falling and their operations losing cash. They have $75 million of cash on their balance sheet, less than their Q1 2017 net loss.
[1] https://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ%3AGPRO&ei=fNBeWcCjCc...
It's not fair to say GoPro has failed simply because investors and traders had unrealistic expectations. The "action camera" market was already saturated in 2014, and it's hard to imagine how they would continue growing at their previous rate when they're selling replacements and minor upgrades.
It's possible they're in the process of failing, but it wouldn't surprise me if trying to meet unrealistic expectations caused a large part of their problems.
I think at this point the worst case scenario is that they get bought out by a bigger electronics company because their name brand alone is worth quite a bit.
It's possible they're in the process of failing, but it wouldn't surprise me if trying to meet unrealistic expectations caused a large part of their problems.
I think at this point the worst case scenario is that they get bought out by a bigger electronics company because their name brand alone is worth quite a bit.
Agreed that it's unfair to call it a failure. GoPro is what most people think of when you suggest filming something sports-related. They made a product which does what it says it does, and has become a very recognizable brand for action filming. Nothing lasts forever, I'd mark their efforts a success.
Why buy a gopro when a $100 china commodity clone will do good enough?
The sensors & lenses are going to be the same size, from sony and rubber gaskets with a hard plastic shell is not hard to do.
The sensors & lenses are going to be the same size, from sony and rubber gaskets with a hard plastic shell is not hard to do.
What does this have to do with classifying them as a success or failure?
But while we're on your topic, don't forget there is value in brand recognition and trust in a company which isn't a random Chinese vendor. And why do you think the Chinese clones exist at all? They followed the success of GoPro.
But while we're on your topic, don't forget there is value in brand recognition and trust in a company which isn't a random Chinese vendor. And why do you think the Chinese clones exist at all? They followed the success of GoPro.
Right. GoPro to me is like the iPhone of the action cameras. Yes there might be other cameras with better performance, but when you think about an action camera and you have the budget you go for a GoPro. That can hardly be considered as a failure from the point of view of a product. Now, investor's point of view will clearly differ as per the data pointed out.
They aren't a failure because their stock price is low, that's a symptom. They are a failure because they couldn't create a sustainable business, and are hemorrhaging cash.
It IPO'd at $24/share and is now $8/share. They are having a hard time releasing products and when they finally do make it out they are inferior to the competitors. (see karma drone)
I think there's still a ton of potential though. The right company just needs to come up with the right formula.
Hadn't heard about Hello. Their product sucked but I assumed PT was in for more than one hand to prove his point.
Sounds kind of like software startups!
I love my Jambox. What I love even more is the 20W Anker speaker that I just bought for a fifth of what the Jambox cost. And though physically a bit larger, the Anker sounds tons better. The Jambox was a fine product for its day, but the “decent sounding Bluetooth speaker” problem is now solved, and for not a lot of money.
Headsets? I dunno, are Bluetooth earpieces still a thing?
That leaves us with fitness trackers, and it doesn’t appear to me that the market for those is all that healthy. (And I’ve heard Jawbone’s quality on those was lacking.) So it seems to me that though Jawbone was innovative and had some great products that pushed the state of the art along (I’m thinking of their headset and speaker), those got commoditized and/or duplicated by others. Like many, I often have a “if only they’d...” opinion to share. In Jawbone’s case, I’m a bit stumped as to what they could have done differently.
Headsets? I dunno, are Bluetooth earpieces still a thing?
That leaves us with fitness trackers, and it doesn’t appear to me that the market for those is all that healthy. (And I’ve heard Jawbone’s quality on those was lacking.) So it seems to me that though Jawbone was innovative and had some great products that pushed the state of the art along (I’m thinking of their headset and speaker), those got commoditized and/or duplicated by others. Like many, I often have a “if only they’d...” opinion to share. In Jawbone’s case, I’m a bit stumped as to what they could have done differently.
I vastly prefer the Anker audio quality, but I ran into a situation recently where the Jambox was the only speaker that would work adequately. I purchased a Bluetooth transmitter (the model is not relevant -- all devices I tried behaved the same) that I connected to a streaming audio source (i.e., it can only send data as fast as the audio input is received). Not one modern Bluetooth speaker that I tried, Anker included, was able to play the audio without interruption. Only the Jambox was.
My working theory based on my observations of multiple speakers, most of which I returned for refund, is that an internal buffer accounts for the varying perceived connection reliability. The newer speakers were significantly quicker at beginning playing audio after establishing a Bluetooth connection (as observed unscientifically by watching the indicator on the transmitter — all connect using the same audio codec). The Jambox was the slowest by at least a factor of 4-5x. In my theory, this delay was a direct result of a larger audio buffer.
In my environment, I believe that 2.4 Ghz interference is a probable culprit. This is a fairly typical suburban neighborhood with most homes containing a dual-band Comcast wireless router. As a result, the 2.4 Ghz spectrum is very crowded, but since I cannot control the channels in use by other people and the fact that Bluetooth is frequency hopping, I can’t work around it.
My working theory based on my observations of multiple speakers, most of which I returned for refund, is that an internal buffer accounts for the varying perceived connection reliability. The newer speakers were significantly quicker at beginning playing audio after establishing a Bluetooth connection (as observed unscientifically by watching the indicator on the transmitter — all connect using the same audio codec). The Jambox was the slowest by at least a factor of 4-5x. In my theory, this delay was a direct result of a larger audio buffer.
In my environment, I believe that 2.4 Ghz interference is a probable culprit. This is a fairly typical suburban neighborhood with most homes containing a dual-band Comcast wireless router. As a result, the 2.4 Ghz spectrum is very crowded, but since I cannot control the channels in use by other people and the fact that Bluetooth is frequency hopping, I can’t work around it.
I also experienced big buffers with my JAMBOX. When I try to play something that requires low latency (like a talk), it is perceivable that there is a latency between the video and the speaker.
Hardware returns are a big challenge for startups. Many big box retailers today don't even ship back the product when it is returned.
> What I love even more is the 20W Anker speaker
So I own the following from Anker:
- USB Cables
- USB chargers
- USB battery packs
- A LED desk lamp.
And the led lamp is amazing.
I think that Anker has a strong brand a quality product and isn't that much more expensive than their close competitors. I will pay a bit more for their products because I TRUST them, it is a BRAND and people are fiercely loyal to it.
Jawbone? Did they ever make anything other than headsets? Were they diversified? Did any one care about their brand?
Anker is selling a commodity product and building a reputation for quality. Assuming they don't blow that I suspect that they will be able to weather a lot more than a one product company.
So I own the following from Anker:
- USB Cables
- USB chargers
- USB battery packs
- A LED desk lamp.
And the led lamp is amazing.
I think that Anker has a strong brand a quality product and isn't that much more expensive than their close competitors. I will pay a bit more for their products because I TRUST them, it is a BRAND and people are fiercely loyal to it.
Jawbone? Did they ever make anything other than headsets? Were they diversified? Did any one care about their brand?
Anker is selling a commodity product and building a reputation for quality. Assuming they don't blow that I suspect that they will be able to weather a lot more than a one product company.
AirPods, Gear IconX, etc are the new Bluetooth earpieces
AirPods are freaking awesome, I'll say that much.
"Jawbone Health is at the forefront of revolutionizing primary care for millions of patients worldwide. Combining more than 20 years of proprietary wearable technology with clinically relevant signals, Jawbone Health connects patients and physicians like never before with continuous, data-driven dialogue."
How exactly is a company that just started from the ashes of a glorified bluetooth speaker company revolutionizing primary care medicine? It really bothers me when snake oil tech CEO's spout this kind of rubbish.
How exactly is a company that just started from the ashes of a glorified bluetooth speaker company revolutionizing primary care medicine? It really bothers me when snake oil tech CEO's spout this kind of rubbish.
Right? I found myself wondering what the wearable technology of 20 years ago really was. A skinny, awkward teen with a 50 pound CRT TV strapped to his back?
Twenty years ago we already had PDAs and palmtops. The Atari Portfolio is from '89, and fits in a pocket. That tech was used to create wrist-mounted computers: http://edgarmatias.com/papers/chi96/
Most weren't commercially viable, but the tech has been around for a long time.
Most weren't commercially viable, but the tech has been around for a long time.
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I just received yesterday a Jawbone UP4 wrist band. I switched it on and it upgraded its own firwmare via cellphone without asking. Now it just doesn't work at all unless it is connected to a usb port or charger. I read through all their support suggestions and tried what was possible to no avail. The "soft reset" and "secondary reset" suggested just doesn't happen; the band leds won't respond as described.
Jawbone support is non-existent at this point, and their support web forms won't even work. So I am returning this to Amazon for a refund. Yeah, I should have done some proper research before buying this.
Unluckily, this seems to be the only wrist band which have the perfect combination of functionality and form factor that I wanted. I just wanted this to work. And it even works as a NFC payment thing! Only amex though. I'm leaning towards a Fitbit Alta HR now, but I would really prefer it to be discrete and without a display at all.
Jawbone support is non-existent at this point, and their support web forms won't even work. So I am returning this to Amazon for a refund. Yeah, I should have done some proper research before buying this.
Unluckily, this seems to be the only wrist band which have the perfect combination of functionality and form factor that I wanted. I just wanted this to work. And it even works as a NFC payment thing! Only amex though. I'm leaning towards a Fitbit Alta HR now, but I would really prefer it to be discrete and without a display at all.
> Yeah, I should have done some proper research before buying this.
I could understand this reaction if you were unsatisfied with a frustrating-but-functional experience. Don't beat yourself up too hard for buying something without thoroughly researching whether or not it actually works.
I could understand this reaction if you were unsatisfied with a frustrating-but-functional experience. Don't beat yourself up too hard for buying something without thoroughly researching whether or not it actually works.
A friend of mine quit this company after working there for 3 months. As a PM, she mentioned that it was impossible for her to do any meaningful work. Mind you, this was back in 2014, when they were doing fairly well. She even removed traces of working there from her LinkedIn. Speaks a lot about the company.
> She even removed traces of working there from her LinkedIn. Speaks a lot about the company.
Or it tells you that people don't like explaining short employment stints to potential employers, probably out of fear that the potential employer will think they were fired.
Or it tells you that people don't like explaining short employment stints to potential employers, probably out of fear that the potential employer will think they were fired.
You either explain why the startup wasn't a good fit or the three month gap of employment on the resume. I know which I would chose.
I don't think anyone would ever bat an eye at a 3 month gap in the resume.
I don't "bat an eye", but I always ask about any gap longer than a month to see whether the candidate has an answer and how they explain it. The question is never about the truth for the gap and more to see how they handle the situation.
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Sorry to come off as a fanboy, but I blew through hundreds of dollars on multiple generations of Jawbone bluetooth headsets that never worked well enough. By contrast, my AirPods work incredibly well.
Why did you continue to buy generation after generation of a product that you felt was sub-par?
The same friend kept buying the Jawbone and telling me how great they were! I've now converted him to AirPods as well.
But why airpods and not one of the countless other bluetooth headphones? There are so many alternatives with equal or better sound for a cheaper price. Or is the design the appealing factor for many people?
For my, it was my trust in the Apple brand that airpods would work as advertised and be easy to use.
I now use carry and use them everyday and listen to much more music/spoken content than I ever did before. Many times I use them over my QC35s.
I now use carry and use them everyday and listen to much more music/spoken content than I ever did before. Many times I use them over my QC35s.
For me the quality and consistency of the pairing has been the key advantage.
To be honest, bluetooth was not that reliable until recently. With the new 4.x versions of Bluetooth, things are a lot more stable with audio devices. So I wouldn't blame Jawbone alone.
Perhaps my memory fails me but weren't Jawbone one of the pioneers in bluetooth?
I was in the same boat - the headsets were never really good enough, but they were way better than any other option out there. Until the AirPods...
My Jambox is a frequent pain in my butt, and I only ever use it with one device.
Removing ALL voice files on the Jambox helps with reliability.
(Just keep hard and soft resetting until the voices disappear.)
(Just keep hard and soft resetting until the voices disappear.)
The writing has been on the wall for a few months now!
They straight up stopped responding too support request, especially if you mentioned that you had a defective up3 or up4. Not exactly the kind of move a company that had hopes for the future would make.
They straight up stopped responding too support request, especially if you mentioned that you had a defective up3 or up4. Not exactly the kind of move a company that had hopes for the future would make.
Exactly. Why shoud the health care industry, patients and physicians, trust a company with such a shitty attitude towards customer support? And why do VC's keep investing in a team with such a disdain for its customers?
Sad, they were great back in their bluetooth microphone heyday but after I had to return the Jawbone Up 5 times for just basic manufacturing and quality defects (and to their credit they were fast each time) within a few weeks of each replacement... it was clear they were on a terminal decline (this was about 2 years ago).
You can't produce bad product that consistently and survive.
You can't produce bad product that consistently and survive.
This, more than any other factor, should warn anyone away from the new company.
To give some perspective, older model Jawbone earphones were so good that when the quality in the newer models began its terminal decline, a lot of customers, myself included, were so unbelieving we all kept buying and returning the new models. You can see it from the Amazon reviews. I finally accepted they were not coming back from their decline, and started looking for a new manufacturer. The closest one I could find with the same quality sound that I had come to love from the old Jawbones were $1K USD sets that were super bulky, made for the military. If I knew Jawbone would have tanked their quality so badly, I would have stocked up on more of the older models off of eBay (which were selling for more than retail at one point).
I'm hoping a pair of AirPods will bring me back to the wireless earphone user base. If any other Jawbone readers found they experienced the same as I described and found a great replacement, then please reply here.
To give some perspective, older model Jawbone earphones were so good that when the quality in the newer models began its terminal decline, a lot of customers, myself included, were so unbelieving we all kept buying and returning the new models. You can see it from the Amazon reviews. I finally accepted they were not coming back from their decline, and started looking for a new manufacturer. The closest one I could find with the same quality sound that I had come to love from the old Jawbones were $1K USD sets that were super bulky, made for the military. If I knew Jawbone would have tanked their quality so badly, I would have stocked up on more of the older models off of eBay (which were selling for more than retail at one point).
I'm hoping a pair of AirPods will bring me back to the wireless earphone user base. If any other Jawbone readers found they experienced the same as I described and found a great replacement, then please reply here.
Recruiters, get to work. A bunch of extremely talented people got laid off today.
The problem with fitness trackers and smartwatches is that each and every brand keeps adding unnecessary features to the stack. They won't listen to users and keep building devices that have no market. Most of those companies created a product that was good and needed a good amount of work to make it better. But it seems that developers and management felt that simple = bad, and worked their asses off to add useless features.
Probably the closest to what people wanted was Mi Band - a bit too simplistic, but close enough. And this opinion is shared by many of people I know.
In order to create a successful fitness tracker, create a device with:
-distance tracker
-steps tracker
-waterproof (good enough to swim in swimming pool)
-mobile phone notifications, alarms
-no screen needed or extremely simplistic screen is OK
-battery live of at least 7days
-heart rate monitor (do not need to be constant)
-good software, small size
-make it look simple - let users decide on adding bits to it
-sleep tracker that works and learns
-use phone and app for making most of the calculation to save battery
-the price of $49
This tool would kill the market. As of now, Mi Band is closest, but their software/app is bad and there are some issues with hardware and customisation.
Probably the closest to what people wanted was Mi Band - a bit too simplistic, but close enough. And this opinion is shared by many of people I know.
In order to create a successful fitness tracker, create a device with:
-distance tracker
-steps tracker
-waterproof (good enough to swim in swimming pool)
-mobile phone notifications, alarms
-no screen needed or extremely simplistic screen is OK
-battery live of at least 7days
-heart rate monitor (do not need to be constant)
-good software, small size
-make it look simple - let users decide on adding bits to it
-sleep tracker that works and learns
-use phone and app for making most of the calculation to save battery
-the price of $49
This tool would kill the market. As of now, Mi Band is closest, but their software/app is bad and there are some issues with hardware and customisation.
"They won't listen to users and keep building devices that have no market"
You just listed an idea according to yourself with literally no market data or budgetary notions. Of course you would do better than any of the companies that actually know what it means working this stuff
>And this opinion is shared by many of people I know
Unfortunately "people this guy knows" isn't a real market and has no bearing on whether a product would be successful or not
https://signalvnoise.com/posts/3124-give-it-five-minutes
You just listed an idea according to yourself with literally no market data or budgetary notions. Of course you would do better than any of the companies that actually know what it means working this stuff
>And this opinion is shared by many of people I know
Unfortunately "people this guy knows" isn't a real market and has no bearing on whether a product would be successful or not
https://signalvnoise.com/posts/3124-give-it-five-minutes
it is always easier to criticize than to create
Its funny, but I have the opposite reaction. I want a fitness band / smartwatch that can do everything:
o Ability to run w/o phone:
o sleep tracking
I think only 4 of them have been made:
First was Moto 360 sport. The battery life was horrific, the HRM and GPS were inaccurate, and the BT transmitter was weak. Mine finally died.
I now have a Polar M600, which is nice, but lacks background HRM. Its also very bulky for the size of the screen, and the battery life, while better than the Moto 360, is only about 2 days.
The others are a TomTom Spark Cardio+Music, which I've never tried. And the Apple Watch 2, of course; which being an Android person, I have never tried.
I wish that Fitbit would make a device like this. Or that Garmin would add a BT transmitter and music storage to the Fenix.
o Ability to run w/o phone:
- BT transmitter & music storage
- GPS independant of phone
- background hear rate monitoring
- notifications
- Android smart unlock device
- useful for 2FA (eg, Google Authenticator, or Duo)
o sleep tracking
I think only 4 of them have been made:
First was Moto 360 sport. The battery life was horrific, the HRM and GPS were inaccurate, and the BT transmitter was weak. Mine finally died.
I now have a Polar M600, which is nice, but lacks background HRM. Its also very bulky for the size of the screen, and the battery life, while better than the Moto 360, is only about 2 days.
The others are a TomTom Spark Cardio+Music, which I've never tried. And the Apple Watch 2, of course; which being an Android person, I have never tried.
I wish that Fitbit would make a device like this. Or that Garmin would add a BT transmitter and music storage to the Fenix.
Why do you need to run without a phone? Phones aren't that heavy and devices can be significantly cheaper and smaller if they don't need a GPS chip and music storage (smaller battery).
I stopped using my Garmin watch since I have a fitbit charge and find that measurements via phone are surprisingly accurate. In cities, pure GPS watches often lose signal (buildings, tunnels), phones can track much more accurately there.
I stopped using my Garmin watch since I have a fitbit charge and find that measurements via phone are surprisingly accurate. In cities, pure GPS watches often lose signal (buildings, tunnels), phones can track much more accurately there.
I use my Garmin because I track heartrate when running and the Charge HR - whilst surprisingly accurate for step counting and distance and resting HR - is woeful when trying to track HR during exercise.
(Also for cycling with a variety of ANT+ sensors.)
(Also for cycling with a variety of ANT+ sensors.)
> Why do you need to run without a phone
Where do you keep your phone when you run? The only solution is strap it onto the arm, but I don't like that. It feels like a hindrance.
Where do you keep your phone when you run? The only solution is strap it onto the arm, but I don't like that. It feels like a hindrance.
The pricing of $49 is the kicker. No one can make the device you're describing for that. Garmin devices (like the Forerunner 935) tick off your feature requirements but are relatively expensive.
The Mi Band is close to what I listed for $19. The money should be made on add-ons and upgrades, not the product itself.
I'm trying out a withings steel HR and it pretty much fits this bill. Unfortunately it's much more expensive than your price point.
- The HR monitor is very good; it has a passive mode and active mode you can activate if you want more detailed readings during exercise
- It looks like a nice watch without being bulky
- Battery life is almost a month
- It does have minimalist notifications (name of person texting you), but I actually don't want to get buzzed every time that happens so I turn it off
- Waterproof
- Step tracker element (analog 0-100% counter) is actually brilliant because it's super obvious how far I am in the day
Cost is north of $200. It was free for me because I'm experimenting on wearables for work (API integration)
- The HR monitor is very good; it has a passive mode and active mode you can activate if you want more detailed readings during exercise
- It looks like a nice watch without being bulky
- Battery life is almost a month
- It does have minimalist notifications (name of person texting you), but I actually don't want to get buzzed every time that happens so I turn it off
- Waterproof
- Step tracker element (analog 0-100% counter) is actually brilliant because it's super obvious how far I am in the day
Cost is north of $200. It was free for me because I'm experimenting on wearables for work (API integration)
There you go, FitBit Charge HR (old model) for $60 on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/i/112385732954 (not affiliated)
Second time today we see reporting on SF tech startup woes (see SoundCloud as well).
In case it's helpful, http://www.layoff-aid.com is avaiiable for SF tech talent affected by downsizing in both cases.
What an epidemic.
In case it's helpful, http://www.layoff-aid.com is avaiiable for SF tech talent affected by downsizing in both cases.
What an epidemic.
Hired.com is pretty good too. I'm now happily working at a low-key company that I would've never heard about thanks to Hired.
Awesome. Haven't used them. Curious to hear how long it took you from signup to signing, and whether or not you were employed while you were searching.
It took me 14 days from the day my profile went 'live' to the day I signed an offer being unemployed. Most companies scheduled 2 phone screens with me before offering me an onsite interview. The first with a recruiter and the second was usually a technical phone interview. I consistently did 3-4 phone calls per day during the first week and usually 1 full-day onsite interview during the second week. If I had to use their jobs platform while employed, I'd probably quit first or use up vacation time.
Soundcloud is a German company based in Berlin...
But the tech talent in SF was laid off today.
Anybody know how many were affected?
SF and NY
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It's been a long bumpy road for Jawbone, 20 years is really sad to see it ending like this.
Yeah I remember seeing the CEO speak at one of YC's events. They even had their doors chained up when they ran out of money many years ago. If I'm remembering correctly they almost sorta died twice prior to today. Resilient but seems they never could get to sustainable profits.
Sad to see. I can't speak on their wearables, but I've owned a Jawbone Big Jambox for four years and continue to use it to this day. It may not be the best compared to other bluetooth speakers, but it's a great product nonetheless.
The big jambox is still one of my favorite tech products I've ever owned. I think my red one belongs in MoMA. I finally caved and bought a UE Megaboom for its waterproof abilities, but it still doesn't sound better than my years old jambox. I think think they would have been a great acquisition for Amazon in their heyday.
Not surprised. I'm in the market for a fitness band & the comments & reviews on the jawbone stuff is a blood bath.
Sounds like they were shipping a lot of broken stuff. Probably not a very sustainable business model
Sounds like they were shipping a lot of broken stuff. Probably not a very sustainable business model
A lot of users had to replace their band like 3 or 4 times in the first months. Then the band only last for 6 or 8 months. No business can survive like this.
Im not surprised tbh, I've had 2 defective Jawbone Up's and the first took approx 12 months for a refund to be issued. Also had a defective jambox product. I think ultimately the product quality was not there, and they got found out in the marketplace.
I had no idea Jawbone had a wearables line. I only knew them for their Jambox, which is a great product, but it's probably a tough sell now that there are innumerable competitors.
Well, what is it about? "Health startup" is a little broad.
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Reminds me of these lines from a Hemingway novel:
“How did you go bankrupt?”
“Two ways, gradually and then suddenly.”
There have been a lot of startups without a real product that have been propped up by the bubble of easy money over the last 5 years. But sooner or later, the debtors will come calling.
If you work at a startup, you owe it to yourself to think carefully about where your company stands - you can be sure that the executives, drunk on their own Kool-aid, won't see any problems until it's too late.
“How did you go bankrupt?”
“Two ways, gradually and then suddenly.”
There have been a lot of startups without a real product that have been propped up by the bubble of easy money over the last 5 years. But sooner or later, the debtors will come calling.
If you work at a startup, you owe it to yourself to think carefully about where your company stands - you can be sure that the executives, drunk on their own Kool-aid, won't see any problems until it's too late.