The Suburb of the Future, Almost Here(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
The Suburb of the Future, Almost Here
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/15/sunday-review/future-suburb-millennials.html
135 comments
Speak for yourself and your own city. My city doesn't really have a housing problem and I'd bet a vast majority in the US don't either. I'm easily a 15 min train ride from downtown and I have a huge back yard, garden, and space for my kayaking stuff.
Sure it's pricey in the city centers but not outrageous. It's only my California friends who are complaing, and to some extent Seattle.
If you're spending 60% of your income on housing you can easily find work elsewhere, take a pay cut, and still make out ahead. I spend 20% of my net pay on rent after taxes, insurance and 401k.
Sure it's pricey in the city centers but not outrageous. It's only my California friends who are complaing, and to some extent Seattle.
If you're spending 60% of your income on housing you can easily find work elsewhere, take a pay cut, and still make out ahead. I spend 20% of my net pay on rent after taxes, insurance and 401k.
Enjoy your city while it lasts. Most blue/"Progressive" states and many blue cities especially coastal ones are all heading in this direction: Seattle, Portland, etc because they're not building enough. Their future is what CA looks like right now.
There were studies done on this and they found a pattern of housing problems in the more progressive cities - because they often clamp down on housing, reducing the supply, in the name of progess.
There were studies done on this and they found a pattern of housing problems in the more progressive cities - because they often clamp down on housing, reducing the supply, in the name of progess.
where do you live with mass transit and cheap housing? Also Chicago?
Salt Lake. Free bus + train in city center; yearly ticket outside of that.
Every big city has mass transit to at some degree. IDK what your specific requirements are though.
Every big city has mass transit to at some degree. IDK what your specific requirements are though.
Interesting. I've never been to Salt Lake City. Where are some good places to live?
I did a look in Zillow, and there are a few houses within 30 minute commute for under 300k. Most seem above 350k and further than 30 min, though. Which still isn't bad. But, assuming around $2,000 / month for mortgage and taxes, I'd have to make $120k+, gross, to have it be 20% of my income. Are there a lot of jobs there that pay that much? Sounds nice.
I did a look in Zillow, and there are a few houses within 30 minute commute for under 300k. Most seem above 350k and further than 30 min, though. Which still isn't bad. But, assuming around $2,000 / month for mortgage and taxes, I'd have to make $120k+, gross, to have it be 20% of my income. Are there a lot of jobs there that pay that much? Sounds nice.
Not on average. But since this is HN, there's a good chance you are a software engineer. Assuming solid ability and a few years experience, yes.
Also, I bought my first house in 2015. 2k sq ft, 0.2 acre, 2 was car garage, built 1976, 25min from SLC city center, for under $200k. Prices have gone up 10% since.
My wife and there kids and I live quite
Also, I bought my first house in 2015. 2k sq ft, 0.2 acre, 2 was car garage, built 1976, 25min from SLC city center, for under $200k. Prices have gone up 10% since.
My wife and there kids and I live quite
* Should be: My wife and three kids and I live quite comfortably on my software engineering salary.
The rule of thumb is for housing to be up to 1/3 of your net pay, not 20%.
Whos rule of thumb is that, the banks? I am below 10% and this is after a pay cut (i.e. its not because I make 500k).
google for any budgeting guidelines and you will repeatedly see 1/3 net pay for housing mentioned. Here (Germany) landlords will decide letting you rent their property based on that ratio.
Consider that since even in the US houshold medien income is $59k (gross) per year, spending 10% for housing (unless you already outright own) is not tenable for most families.
Consider that since even in the US houshold medien income is $59k (gross) per year, spending 10% for housing (unless you already outright own) is not tenable for most families.
1/3 is the MAX allowed by any sane landlord / bank (though I think some go as high as 50% for renting at least).
If your household income is 60k gross, your net should be north of 50k (figure at least 2 adults, maybe some kids, your tax burden will be lowish). 10% of 50k gives you $416 a month. Where I live (Indiana), that can get you a mortgage payment on a house that cost about 110k (say 15-20k down). That is totally reasonable. In my town you can get a solid 3 bedroom house with a yard
(First random result I pulled up from my city: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2612-Southridge-Dr-South-... )
I think most people spend far too high a % of their money on housing. Sometimes you can't help it (say, fresh out of college, moved to NYC for a big job). But a lot of people can, and still make bad choices.
If your household income is 60k gross, your net should be north of 50k (figure at least 2 adults, maybe some kids, your tax burden will be lowish). 10% of 50k gives you $416 a month. Where I live (Indiana), that can get you a mortgage payment on a house that cost about 110k (say 15-20k down). That is totally reasonable. In my town you can get a solid 3 bedroom house with a yard
(First random result I pulled up from my city: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2612-Southridge-Dr-South-... )
I think most people spend far too high a % of their money on housing. Sometimes you can't help it (say, fresh out of college, moved to NYC for a big job). But a lot of people can, and still make bad choices.
3br with a yard will probably cost >€500k even in the remote suburbs around here. I think your case is particularly low priced for a city with a reasonable amount of jobs.
Well this is the US :) You posted median US income. The median family in the US lives in a small town, perhaps 50k-250k people. Most of them have similarly affordable towns. We are not suburbs of anything.. 90 minute drive from Chicago, but far enough to not really count as a burb.
I quoted US figures cause in other countries people generally earn less money (in Germany I think it converts to something like $50k/year).
But you're right that even here once you get far enough to not be reasonably commutable to one of the big cities prices plummet, just not sure which situation better represent the median family.
You can find rural/urban divides online but it's not quite the same if you consider people living in smaller towns are still being counted as urban...The biggest divide is probably between the super in-demand major cities (and their peripheries) vs everyone else.
This is further exaggerated here as Germany has the lowest birth rates in the world and one of the highest inbound immigration rates - which means the big cities are growing (as that's where immigrants are going) and the rest are deflating.
But you're right that even here once you get far enough to not be reasonably commutable to one of the big cities prices plummet, just not sure which situation better represent the median family.
You can find rural/urban divides online but it's not quite the same if you consider people living in smaller towns are still being counted as urban...The biggest divide is probably between the super in-demand major cities (and their peripheries) vs everyone else.
This is further exaggerated here as Germany has the lowest birth rates in the world and one of the highest inbound immigration rates - which means the big cities are growing (as that's where immigrants are going) and the rest are deflating.
SLC is on my and my partner's list of places to live once we leave Los Angeles.
Are the inversions in SLC as bad as I've heard? How would life be for an asthmatic there?
Are the inversions in SLC as bad as I've heard? How would life be for an asthmatic there?
> how does anyone expect to build this stuff, when we can't even build regular housing, anywhere near the amount that is required to match demand.
You can't in SF, NY, LA... other areas don't have this problem.
If your biggest desire is to have your housing not cost more than 60% of your paycheck, move to the suburbs of somewhere like Dallas. You'll be shocked at how many millennials can afford to have nice apartments or even buy homes without spending close to that, percentage-wise. Sure, they're doing it on a later schedule than the baby boomers, but in a lot of places that's a separate discussion of higher education requirements, student loan situations, etc, not terribly inflated housing costs.
But long-term-wealth-wise it might be better to land a top-tier job in an expensive city making $100K more a year in some combo of cash and equity and plowing that back into some of that expensive housing. Bit of a gamble, though. But if you aren't making more than (rough first guess, I feel on the too-low side with what I'm seeing rent-wise these days) $120K early in your career in one of the super-expensive cities, or have a clear path to well eclipsing that, you'd probably be much more comfortable making $70-100K in one of the cheaper, more southern, booming-yet-still-building-housing regions.
You can't in SF, NY, LA... other areas don't have this problem.
If your biggest desire is to have your housing not cost more than 60% of your paycheck, move to the suburbs of somewhere like Dallas. You'll be shocked at how many millennials can afford to have nice apartments or even buy homes without spending close to that, percentage-wise. Sure, they're doing it on a later schedule than the baby boomers, but in a lot of places that's a separate discussion of higher education requirements, student loan situations, etc, not terribly inflated housing costs.
But long-term-wealth-wise it might be better to land a top-tier job in an expensive city making $100K more a year in some combo of cash and equity and plowing that back into some of that expensive housing. Bit of a gamble, though. But if you aren't making more than (rough first guess, I feel on the too-low side with what I'm seeing rent-wise these days) $120K early in your career in one of the super-expensive cities, or have a clear path to well eclipsing that, you'd probably be much more comfortable making $70-100K in one of the cheaper, more southern, booming-yet-still-building-housing regions.
> Dallas
This is entirely true of the area. Affordability of nice housing is easily in-budget, even on a single income.
If you don't mind a commute, multiple acres of land is also an option. I just recevied an ad in the mail today for 5+ acre lots on a lake, 30 minutes from Dallas starting at $189k.
We moved from Dallas to Seattle 4 years ago for family. We moved back to Dallas after 18 months due to housing costs. Our house cost about 60% of what we would have spent for a dump half the size in the Seattle area.
This is entirely true of the area. Affordability of nice housing is easily in-budget, even on a single income.
If you don't mind a commute, multiple acres of land is also an option. I just recevied an ad in the mail today for 5+ acre lots on a lake, 30 minutes from Dallas starting at $189k.
We moved from Dallas to Seattle 4 years ago for family. We moved back to Dallas after 18 months due to housing costs. Our house cost about 60% of what we would have spent for a dump half the size in the Seattle area.
But, then you have to live in Dallas! I'm only half kidding. I live in Portland and I love the rain, the trees, the mountains, the wildfire smoke (kidding), etc. of the PNW.
Chicago area is similar -- you can easily get a tech job (lots of trading houses here) making 6 figures (or close to it), and get a house in the suburbs (about 50 minute train ride away) for less than 200K, or often times around 100k if you get one that is less than pristine (and these are good investments too, if you can do handyman work yourself).
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Or Atlanta. Even millennial who don’t work in tech can afford condos downtown.
Atlanta is fascinating because a lot of areas of Atlanta, like midtown and buckhead, seem to be doing exactly the sort of smart building that is so apparently impossible in California: transforming inside-the-perimeter space into higher-density inside-the-perimeter space, while already being bustling business centers, to an extent I haven't seen as much in the parts of Dallas I've spent most time in (I'm familiar with the continued expansion of satellite cities/suburbs, and the use of all the land to spread things around sufficiently so that it hasn't become the rush-hour-all-the-time mess of LA, but less so what's going on in more central areas).
My guess is that the difference is that more of those spaces in Atlanta had become more abandoned residentially in the past since there was room to expand outwards, opening them up for redevelopment now, whereas in LA or SF much of the old-construction lower-density stuff has remained in continual high demand because people have already gone outward just about as far as currently possible (1-2hr each way commutes) so NIMBYism kicks in hard. Plus things like "environmental impact studies" concluding traffic will be worse, etc—I'm very skeptical of the idea that keeping density low so everyone has to commute from further away really helps the environment.
My guess is that the difference is that more of those spaces in Atlanta had become more abandoned residentially in the past since there was room to expand outwards, opening them up for redevelopment now, whereas in LA or SF much of the old-construction lower-density stuff has remained in continual high demand because people have already gone outward just about as far as currently possible (1-2hr each way commutes) so NIMBYism kicks in hard. Plus things like "environmental impact studies" concluding traffic will be worse, etc—I'm very skeptical of the idea that keeping density low so everyone has to commute from further away really helps the environment.
> Its fun to dream about the future. But, a dream is all it'll ever be.
So for a long time the 'way' was zoning commercial or zoning residential, never in between. But the 'future' became mixed use, and new projects started getting zoned that way, and now 20 years later we've got lots of places where there are shops below and condos or apartments above. I even saw a proposal for connected residents where the owner of a shop can live right over their business which could be leased at the same time, mitigating issues with living far away from your office.
And with most things as you move forward in a direction you learn things and then those things affect your direction. To the extent that new modalities of employment (working 'remotely' in high tech as an example) it also opens up development options. Imagine a chunk of Missouri converted into a 'town' with really nice Internet service so that folks living there could work from their 'home' or maybe a community 'office' but otherwise exploit low land and building costs of the different areas.
I think you need to consider that while you're top priority is a "roof over [your] head without it costing 60% of your paycheck" there is someone trying imagine what part of the equation they can change so that they can offer that to you while accommodating the way in which you acquire that paycheck.
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And yet, the population in many western countries is cratering. Right now there is a housing crunch in some places, but once all the baby boomers die then there should be plenty of houses for the smaller number of children being born. And as a bonus the housing prices should tank since the supply should far outstrip the demand.
I wish that were true. Source?
It seems, US population is not cratering. According to this population projection, it will continue to increase all the way to 2060 and beyond: https://www2.gwu.edu/~forcpgm/Ortman.pdf .
It seems, US population is not cratering. According to this population projection, it will continue to increase all the way to 2060 and beyond: https://www2.gwu.edu/~forcpgm/Ortman.pdf .
There's plenty of cities already! I live in a smaller city, for me there is a good amount of employment options and stuff to do. I have a decent sized lot, have a 20 minute commute by bike (to the burbs!) and have plenty of places to eat within a 10 minute walk.
It is very affordable here, and there is plenty of housing to boot. I was able to buy a house my first year out of school. It was about 25% of my paycheck at the time and I've since paid off the place.
It is very affordable here, and there is plenty of housing to boot. I was able to buy a house my first year out of school. It was about 25% of my paycheck at the time and I've since paid off the place.
What city?
What city?
I'm a millennial, and it made me sick to read this. It made me glad that I live where I live. I don't live in the suburbs in spite of having my own discrete unit; I live in the suburbs precisely because I have my own discrete unit.
I want my own backyard so that I can go and enjoy sitting by a fire with music I like without ever needing to worry that I might have to compete with others on a cool Friday night in Autumn.
I want my own driveway so that I can go play basketball whenever I feel like, without needing to feel pressured to play nice with others.
I want my own car so that I can drive to and from work in peace, and so that I can do whatever I want in my car, like smoke a cigar. What's the likelihood that my friendly neighborhood ride sharing service will let me do that? Zero. My car is just about the only place left I can smoke in Massachusetts when I'm not at home, and I'm happy to pay for that privilege.
Even if I were OK with all of that, there are numerous dubious claims made in this article about how this new style of living would benefit the environment and would presumably save people from flooding. Really? Would it? How did you figure that? Or does it just sound like it makes sense?
Many signs point to me being stranger than my generational cohorts, but I like the suburbs precisely because I viscerally dislike living in shared spaces.
I want my own backyard so that I can go and enjoy sitting by a fire with music I like without ever needing to worry that I might have to compete with others on a cool Friday night in Autumn.
I want my own driveway so that I can go play basketball whenever I feel like, without needing to feel pressured to play nice with others.
I want my own car so that I can drive to and from work in peace, and so that I can do whatever I want in my car, like smoke a cigar. What's the likelihood that my friendly neighborhood ride sharing service will let me do that? Zero. My car is just about the only place left I can smoke in Massachusetts when I'm not at home, and I'm happy to pay for that privilege.
Even if I were OK with all of that, there are numerous dubious claims made in this article about how this new style of living would benefit the environment and would presumably save people from flooding. Really? Would it? How did you figure that? Or does it just sound like it makes sense?
Many signs point to me being stranger than my generational cohorts, but I like the suburbs precisely because I viscerally dislike living in shared spaces.
I'm a millennial. I don't want any kind of suburb.
I refuse to live anywhere that isn't well-connected/dense enough to provide a good lifestyle completely car-free (i.e. all travel is quick, ubiquitous and convenient on foot/bike/public transportation). I do not ever wish to drive and this is not possible in any suburban development.
I refuse to live anywhere that isn't well-connected/dense enough to provide a good lifestyle completely car-free (i.e. all travel is quick, ubiquitous and convenient on foot/bike/public transportation). I do not ever wish to drive and this is not possible in any suburban development.
I said that too. And I'm not a millenial but a 70's kid. And then I had kids of my own and now I can't imagine not having a car to stuff the kids into, or a big backyard so I don't have to walk to the park with them to play. It's not like I wan't to drive everywhere, it's just the tradeoff I'm happy to accept in order to have a house with a big backyard for the kids to play in.
So this is nothing new. People have always preferred one thing, and changed their minds when having kids.
I imagine I'll be going back to my previous lifestyle (Urban instead of suburban) when the kids can take care of themselves.
So this is nothing new. People have always preferred one thing, and changed their minds when having kids.
I imagine I'll be going back to my previous lifestyle (Urban instead of suburban) when the kids can take care of themselves.
You have to drive everywhere because everything is so far apart to make room for all the roads and parking and setbacks to avoid the problems created by all the cars.
Partly true, although I'm not even in a sprawled suburb, it's rather compact and well connected with public transport - but still once I have the house I almost can't go without a car because of all the stuff you need when you have (and maintain) a house.
Also some things are far apart by definition. Going fishing, to the forest, or just the Sunday morning hockey practice etc is part of "the package" of stuff you can do with a house and car. I Wouldn't trade those for a situation where my house was much closer to work and the area more dense, but I'd have no car.
The one thing that could revolutionize this is rental car pools with self driving cars. In the urban areas where parking is a hassle and the shared cars are always parked nearby, shared cars is becoming more common. That doesn't work in the suburb though. If I could summon a shared car when I need it, I wouldn't need a car of my own. That would mean the suburbs could be denser and have less cars.
Also some things are far apart by definition. Going fishing, to the forest, or just the Sunday morning hockey practice etc is part of "the package" of stuff you can do with a house and car. I Wouldn't trade those for a situation where my house was much closer to work and the area more dense, but I'd have no car.
The one thing that could revolutionize this is rental car pools with self driving cars. In the urban areas where parking is a hassle and the shared cars are always parked nearby, shared cars is becoming more common. That doesn't work in the suburb though. If I could summon a shared car when I need it, I wouldn't need a car of my own. That would mean the suburbs could be denser and have less cars.
I grew in Brazil, where it was possible to have a big family and grow up in the city. The issue is not that one has grown up, or that one has a family. The issue is that society forces you down a path at a certain point in life, instead of presenting the options (which, if they were given equally, living in a city would almost certainly win).
And a car is darn convenient for a family-sized weekly grocery trip.
Dramatically more convenient is having 3 grocery stores within 4 blocks, so you can buy groceries in small batches every other day, or wheel a wagon over for a larger load.
And a car is darn convenient for a family-sized weekly grocery trip.
Agreed. However the only reason I have to make "family-sized weekly grocery trip" is because there is nowhere within easy walking distance for quick daily grocery trips.
Agreed. However the only reason I have to make "family-sized weekly grocery trip" is because there is nowhere within easy walking distance for quick daily grocery trips.
I'm surprised you don't have better delivery options in the US, in the UK the main supermarkets all offer good internet ordering.
I have excellent delivery options but I want to see what I'm buying so I very much prefer driving to the grocery store. Even if 90% of the products are of the kind you can buy without seeing (detergents, canned foods etc) the stuff I need to see like fresh fish/fresh meat etc is so important for what else I'll need. I could probably get a lot of the recurring purchases delivered but I'm not going to shop for groceries any less than 2-3 times per week anyway.
But then if you follow this line of thought you can deliver the bulk and go only to the grocer for the smaller, easy to carry purchases. So, maybe, there is no need for the car anymore?
There are delivery options, but lots of people don't use them.
(1) It's nice to see food first, especially produce and to a lesser extend meat.
(2) "Buy X for me every week" is where delivery shines, but you can't adjust for deals.
(1) It's nice to see food first, especially produce and to a lesser extend meat.
(2) "Buy X for me every week" is where delivery shines, but you can't adjust for deals.
When I was 20, I thought exactly the same. Now that I'm closing in on 50 I love life in the 'burbs. When self-driving cars are available I will likely move a bit further out of the city where I can have more space.
No one ever said that all millennials want to live in the suburb, so...
I feel the same way that you do, but I worry that the realities of the housing market are going to drive my family to some stupid suburb where I have to get a car and spend 30 minutes every morning screaming inside it.
I suggest looking into 'inner' suburbs or pre WW2 housing built around a town. At least that allows you to walk to stores, schools, and usually closer to a city. The trade-off is an older house and possibly a higher cost.
Out of curiosity, do you have kids? It's mighty convenient to have a car with all the stuff in it and plenty of space to park that car nearby, and also lots of space for the kids to play outside.
> and also lots of space for the kids to play outside.
Do kids still play outside these days? I'm only 27, but from what I've seen of the 6-18 crowd they tend to be stuck in front of a screen most of the day.
Do kids still play outside these days? I'm only 27, but from what I've seen of the 6-18 crowd they tend to be stuck in front of a screen most of the day.
I have an 11-month-old and any given time I put him in a carseat it's 50-50 whether he'll holler until we get there. I take BART now even more than I used to.
Carry less stuff? The amount of crap people haul around for their kids is astonishing.
The only reason I drove anywhere with my son was because our region wasn't easily walk-able. That, and travel sports (though if the immediate area was walkable, that would have been reduced to weekend games).
He's since moved out, and we've traded our single-family for a TH in a denser area (though still suburban). I walk to work, walk to the park, have access to many trails, and only drive on the weekends to run errands. It was more QOL-improving than I ever imagined.
Anyway, I've grown to hate suburban sprawl. I find dense suburb packed around transit to be much better from a QOL perspective.
The only reason I drove anywhere with my son was because our region wasn't easily walk-able. That, and travel sports (though if the immediate area was walkable, that would have been reduced to weekend games).
He's since moved out, and we've traded our single-family for a TH in a denser area (though still suburban). I walk to work, walk to the park, have access to many trails, and only drive on the weekends to run errands. It was more QOL-improving than I ever imagined.
Anyway, I've grown to hate suburban sprawl. I find dense suburb packed around transit to be much better from a QOL perspective.
We have kids, we struck a balance of one car. Older kid is able to walk to school, wife drives to work, and I can take the bus or ride a bike to work.
> kids?
I have lots of carless friends with kids in NYC, and they seem to get by no problem.
I have lots of carless friends with kids in NYC, and they seem to get by no problem.
Give NYC-level public transit to any city and that can happen.
My wife and I bought a house in pre-car suburb that was exactly what we wanted: dense, public transit, lots of places to go on foot (doctor, library, municipal building, 3 separate shopping districts, hardware/general store, dozen parks and playgrounds, &c). We wanted a good school, but weren't willing to sacrifice our way of life, and we found, I think, the perfect spot. (We love our neighbors too, but didn't know that until after we moved in).
When we looked at places I gave an immediate veto if there wasn't a sidewalk or if there wasn't a trolley stop a within 10min - 15 min walk, or a bus within 5min. Our elementary school is an 8min walk, the middle and high schools are about 20min. We only drive when public transit would more than double the amount of time it would take or if we need to go where there isn't transit. My wife will also drive for the large grocery runs each month, but the week-to-week is put in the stroller and carried home.
We enjoy this. Cars drive us nuts, not to mention the hassle of parking.
When we looked at places I gave an immediate veto if there wasn't a sidewalk or if there wasn't a trolley stop a within 10min - 15 min walk, or a bus within 5min. Our elementary school is an 8min walk, the middle and high schools are about 20min. We only drive when public transit would more than double the amount of time it would take or if we need to go where there isn't transit. My wife will also drive for the large grocery runs each month, but the week-to-week is put in the stroller and carried home.
We enjoy this. Cars drive us nuts, not to mention the hassle of parking.
Where is this? In the states, suburbs were dreamed up along with the assumption of having a car - so the idea of a 'non-car' suburb is pretty foreign to me
Just south of Pittsburgh in the Mt Lebanon and Dormont area. My area was built up in Tue 1920s before having a car, let lone multiple cars for a family was a given.
I'm not sure what you'd call this if not a suburb. The exurban areas are the ones from the 50s on that are nothing but houses arranged in the worst way possible.
Honestly, a lot of the first and second ring suburbs are like this. The Mon Valley (suburbs and towns along one of our rivers to the south east) is set up like this, but has been decimated by the loss of industry.
(Mt Lebanon is a township so part of it does go down the super low density route, but not the older sections.)
I'm not sure what you'd call this if not a suburb. The exurban areas are the ones from the 50s on that are nothing but houses arranged in the worst way possible.
Honestly, a lot of the first and second ring suburbs are like this. The Mon Valley (suburbs and towns along one of our rivers to the south east) is set up like this, but has been decimated by the loss of industry.
(Mt Lebanon is a township so part of it does go down the super low density route, but not the older sections.)
My nearest neighbor is a half mile away. The nearest village is 24 miles away, and has ~1200 residents. Today, I had three moose come visit my lawn. A few days ago, it was a rabbit, but I ate him for breakfast the following day. Tonight, I had trout caught from a stream on my property.
I don't think my age is salient, as I know plenty of young people who claim they'd love to live like I do. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's lots of different desires, and they encompass all age groups.
I used to live in cities. I'm so happy to be out. Then again, I do love driving.
I don't think my age is salient, as I know plenty of young people who claim they'd love to live like I do. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's lots of different desires, and they encompass all age groups.
I used to live in cities. I'm so happy to be out. Then again, I do love driving.
> They want breathing room but disdain the energy wastefulness, visual monotony and social conformity of postwar manufactured neighborhoods.
then a few sentences later
> Existing suburbs were developed to maximize house and lot sizes,
There is an important piece of info they brushed right past: Existing suburbs were developed to maximize house and lot sizes within a single development, but optimize for that development to be as tightly clustered as possible.
This is obvious if you travel through the outskirts of a major metro area. Loudon VA years ago (DC) or Gig Harbor (Seattle). There will be a bunch of nothing for 20 miles, then 40 houses with about 20 feet between each of them, and then a bunch of nothing.
I think it's lazy and shortsighted of NYT to write this off as disdain for "visual monotony and social conformity".
It's about peace and quiet. The next generation of suburbs needs to be optimized for a bunch of tired sacks aching for reprieve from a world that seems to always be poking at them for something. That means not being elbow to elbow with your neighbors and their shitty, shitty kids.
then a few sentences later
> Existing suburbs were developed to maximize house and lot sizes,
There is an important piece of info they brushed right past: Existing suburbs were developed to maximize house and lot sizes within a single development, but optimize for that development to be as tightly clustered as possible.
This is obvious if you travel through the outskirts of a major metro area. Loudon VA years ago (DC) or Gig Harbor (Seattle). There will be a bunch of nothing for 20 miles, then 40 houses with about 20 feet between each of them, and then a bunch of nothing.
I think it's lazy and shortsighted of NYT to write this off as disdain for "visual monotony and social conformity".
It's about peace and quiet. The next generation of suburbs needs to be optimized for a bunch of tired sacks aching for reprieve from a world that seems to always be poking at them for something. That means not being elbow to elbow with your neighbors and their shitty, shitty kids.
I'd rather live on my 20 acres with propane power and the batteries powered by the sun.
I like that we dug a pump well for fresh water.
I like that I can go outside with my daughter and watch wildlife walk by. I don't need to get a streaming service that puts an image of wild things on a 40" screen. My daughter is going to have memories for a lifetime of her and dad naming the pretty cougars and foxes that walked in her backyard. She'll always remember and be able to come back to her own woods with trails and chirping, the stream by the house, and her very own lake Elizabeth with little jumping fishies.
I already get things delivered to my door same day from Amazon, so I don't need drop off locations at town central, where I would need to get my packages. But, I can go into town, whenever I want. It's not far.
If people want to keep building ever more expensive housing that is constantly more and more interdependent with other systems and people, then go right ahead. Meanwhile, life is waiting to be lived right now.
I like that we dug a pump well for fresh water.
I like that I can go outside with my daughter and watch wildlife walk by. I don't need to get a streaming service that puts an image of wild things on a 40" screen. My daughter is going to have memories for a lifetime of her and dad naming the pretty cougars and foxes that walked in her backyard. She'll always remember and be able to come back to her own woods with trails and chirping, the stream by the house, and her very own lake Elizabeth with little jumping fishies.
I already get things delivered to my door same day from Amazon, so I don't need drop off locations at town central, where I would need to get my packages. But, I can go into town, whenever I want. It's not far.
If people want to keep building ever more expensive housing that is constantly more and more interdependent with other systems and people, then go right ahead. Meanwhile, life is waiting to be lived right now.
Bravo for your efforts to live more sustainably. Still, I don't think it's practical for every person to have 20 acres, wildlife, and the means to enjoy it all without long workdays.
Can your daughter go outside and play with her friends unsupervised? Does she have any friends?
That's rude. She has many friends and sees kids her age almost everyday. She's too young to be unsupervised.
Let me ask you a question similar to what you just asked me, "Do you enjoy letting your family breathe the smog and pollution infested air that you live in? If they don't breathe the outside air, are they aware of the pollution and climate change that is killing the planet, caused by your car?" See how silly the kind of assumptions are that you made?
Let me ask you a question similar to what you just asked me, "Do you enjoy letting your family breathe the smog and pollution infested air that you live in? If they don't breathe the outside air, are they aware of the pollution and climate change that is killing the planet, caused by your car?" See how silly the kind of assumptions are that you made?
I don't have a car.
> See how silly the kind of assumptions are that you made?
Thank you!
Wait....did you just use a silly assumption, not as an example that silly assumptions are possible, but as proof that his assumption was silly?
This trend must be a price over preference issue. The desirable cities in the US are just so damn expensive to live in town. If you want to buy, it's either the 'burbs, or most of your income going to rent/buy in the city.
Of course, if you really do the math, even beyond being unsustainable from an economic and infrastructure/governance standpoint, on a personal level, owning and maintaining a house in the suburbs has many hidden costs.
Of course, if you really do the math, even beyond being unsustainable from an economic and infrastructure/governance standpoint, on a personal level, owning and maintaining a house in the suburbs has many hidden costs.
It's that plus the schools, at least in this city.
If we lived in the city, it'd take ~2-2.5x as much money to buy a house with one fewer bedrooms than our current 'burbs house has (two of our kids could have bunk-beds I guess) and probably 500-100sqft smaller overall and in kinda so-so shape, and that's outside the heart of the city and not in a ritzy neighborhood (but also not a slum). Then we'd also have to hope our kids got into one of a couple good waiting-listed charter schools, or else pay another $2-3K/month for private school. We couldn't afford that at all, and even if they got into the charter schools we'd be living like paupers thanks to the much-higher mortgage (or rent).
So, lifeless, boring 'burbs full of seemingly-intentionally-ugly houses it is.
If we lived in the city, it'd take ~2-2.5x as much money to buy a house with one fewer bedrooms than our current 'burbs house has (two of our kids could have bunk-beds I guess) and probably 500-100sqft smaller overall and in kinda so-so shape, and that's outside the heart of the city and not in a ritzy neighborhood (but also not a slum). Then we'd also have to hope our kids got into one of a couple good waiting-listed charter schools, or else pay another $2-3K/month for private school. We couldn't afford that at all, and even if they got into the charter schools we'd be living like paupers thanks to the much-higher mortgage (or rent).
So, lifeless, boring 'burbs full of seemingly-intentionally-ugly houses it is.
Is it that hard to believe, especially with other articles[0] discussing how much millenials love pets even before having kids, that there's a significant number of people who prefer yards and quiet and peace and all those other suburban perks over living in dense environments? I don't deny that a lot of people prefer living in the city, but it's not only price that can make people choose the alternative. (But due to the nature of density and surface area, you'd have to seriously large majority prefering the suburbs to really drive the city prices down.)
There's also a definitions thing hiding in here: much of San Fransisco is pretty damn suburban, with houses, one or two story buildings, etc. Still expensive as hell, though. And then look at all the towns on the peninsula. I'd argue that the affordability differences are regional much more than urban/suburban driven.
Worth also looking at the costs within those regions of city vs certain suburbs, like SF vs Palo Alto, or LA vs Santa Monica.
[0] such as https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2016/09/13/m... http://www.marketwatch.com/story/do-pets-have-the-potential-...
There's also a definitions thing hiding in here: much of San Fransisco is pretty damn suburban, with houses, one or two story buildings, etc. Still expensive as hell, though. And then look at all the towns on the peninsula. I'd argue that the affordability differences are regional much more than urban/suburban driven.
Worth also looking at the costs within those regions of city vs certain suburbs, like SF vs Palo Alto, or LA vs Santa Monica.
[0] such as https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/business/wp/2016/09/13/m... http://www.marketwatch.com/story/do-pets-have-the-potential-...
It's true. When nice places for people get too crowded and expensive the obvious solution is to make more nice places for people. Sadly America only makes more nice places for cars.
"Millennials want a different kind of suburban
development that is smart, efficient and sustainable"
Suburban or Sustainable, pick one.
Suburban or Sustainable, pick one.
Why are they inherently incompatible?
Infrastructure costs scale approximately linearly with road frontage. 1000 feet of road with associated water lines, power lines, street lights, etc, costs roughly the same whether it serves ten households or fifty.
A sustainable development will necessarily have a high number of households per foot of road frontage. This will not have the suburban look and feel of single-family homes with yards. At best it's going to be medium-density townhomes and row-houses to eliminate wasting infrastructure on the space between houses.
A sustainable development will necessarily have a high number of households per foot of road frontage. This will not have the suburban look and feel of single-family homes with yards. At best it's going to be medium-density townhomes and row-houses to eliminate wasting infrastructure on the space between houses.
The future of the suburbs depends greatly on renewable, clean sources of energy. Reuse and recycling of resources is also important, but for things like power lines or water pipes, seems less so (more for things like those self-driving-electric-cars everyone's waiting for to give them suburbs + not having to drive in stop and go traffic).
Of course, so does the future of the city, just in a denser package, so it has better per-capita figures in many ways - but is there a scenario where we can get enough of it to power cities but not cities + suburbs? That seems unlikely to me.
Of course, so does the future of the city, just in a denser package, so it has better per-capita figures in many ways - but is there a scenario where we can get enough of it to power cities but not cities + suburbs? That seems unlikely to me.
Low density is more expensive in all ways. This affects sustainability.
Suburbs aren’t necessarily low density, though they usually are. In places like New York, many “suburbs” are just small satellite cities well connected to the downtown core with rail.
I don't know if NY suburbs are a great example, though. Things are much more spread out and loosey-goosey there than in younger cities.
Here's Plano, TX, which was mostly developed in the '90s and the 21st century: https://i.imgur.com/TmIlgBh.jpg
Here's Westchester County, NY, developed much earlier than that and not nearly as dense: https://i.imgur.com/pSIettu.jpg
(I used Google Maps zoom level 14 for both screenshots)
Here's Plano, TX, which was mostly developed in the '90s and the 21st century: https://i.imgur.com/TmIlgBh.jpg
Here's Westchester County, NY, developed much earlier than that and not nearly as dense: https://i.imgur.com/pSIettu.jpg
(I used Google Maps zoom level 14 for both screenshots)
Is Plano much denser? Or just more paved?
Plano is a city of 71 sq miles and ~3800 people per square mile. Westchester is a _county_ of 500 square miles and 2300 people per square mile. In many regards, Westchester may be denser. It also looks like they haven't chopped down every last tree and laid waste to the land with asphalt.
Plano is a city of 71 sq miles and ~3800 people per square mile. Westchester is a _county_ of 500 square miles and 2300 people per square mile. In many regards, Westchester may be denser. It also looks like they haven't chopped down every last tree and laid waste to the land with asphalt.
Never been to Westchester, except on a train passing through, but I am intimately familiar with Plano. It's dense, but most of it is a poster child for shitty suburbs: if you don't have a car, you're fucked. (Take a bus, you say? What bus? When I was living around there, most of Plano wasn't served by buses.)
Those are not the example of suburb that people are referring to when they discuss the sustainability issues.
Usually they are referring to the much sparser developments of often large houses, built between the 1960s up to the early naughts.
What you are describing are more like towns, which usually have more sustainable features (smaller houses and lots, ergo less pipes in the ground, a rail corridor connecting them to a major city) because they were built before the car era.
Usually they are referring to the much sparser developments of often large houses, built between the 1960s up to the early naughts.
What you are describing are more like towns, which usually have more sustainable features (smaller houses and lots, ergo less pipes in the ground, a rail corridor connecting them to a major city) because they were built before the car era.
Suburbs don't have to be substantially less dense. Heck, I think there are neighborhoods in my nearest city (Pittsburgh) that are less dense than my town just outside of it. Mine was built before cars were a given and when the trolley was a given.
There are "exurbs" which are just abominations of low density and bad design. There are some lower density suburbs, and yeah, neither of those are sustainable.
There are "exurbs" which are just abominations of low density and bad design. There are some lower density suburbs, and yeah, neither of those are sustainable.
>Yet millennial suburbanites want a new kind of landscape. They want breathing room but disdain the energy wastefulness, visual monotony and social conformity of postwar manufactured neighborhoods.
That's a hell of a claim, and no evidence whatsoever is provided for it. Could it be that the New York Times writers are projecting their slavish political devotion onto the rest of us?
Once we're all married with school-age kids, we will choose to move out to the plain, boring suburbs just like the generations before us. You might keep wasting your time with composting, but almost nobody is going to let "sustainability" actually detract from their quality of life.
The only reason why people in other countries don't make that same choice is that they're not really allowed to, because of development laws, high fuel taxes, and so forth.
That's a hell of a claim, and no evidence whatsoever is provided for it. Could it be that the New York Times writers are projecting their slavish political devotion onto the rest of us?
Once we're all married with school-age kids, we will choose to move out to the plain, boring suburbs just like the generations before us. You might keep wasting your time with composting, but almost nobody is going to let "sustainability" actually detract from their quality of life.
The only reason why people in other countries don't make that same choice is that they're not really allowed to, because of development laws, high fuel taxes, and so forth.
Another way to put it would be that roads, sewers, and mortgages aren't heavily subsidized in other places.
StrongTowns has a great article on this, "The Growth Ponzi Scheme," describing the effect that debt-fuelled, suburban city growth can have on municipal finances: https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme/
I strongly disagree with the core claim that the reason is "unproductive growth". That's not the reason. The reason is municipal debt and gross mismanagement of the townships at every level. The municipalities are taking on debt by the truckload because they have failed to 1) manage their resources and personnel properly and 2) tax accordingly to what they need to actually maintain all services, which is why they take on the debt.
If they instead were unable to take on the debt they would be forced to either raise taxes, cut services, or some combination thereof. The past ~40 years have seen an ever decreasing interest rate environment, which allows municipalities to borrow money by issuing bonds, pay only the interest, then when the principal comes due, they roll it into a new bond that borrows even more. That new bond pays the old one off and then they have some more borrowed money to work with. And because interest rates have gone down more in the years since the previous bond issuance, they can pay the same interest. Basically, they just keep rolling debt over so that the principal is never paid down. Example - in 2000, bond rates were around 6%. In 2010 they were around 4%. In 2000, if a municipality took out $100M to build schools or whatever, they need to pay $6M a year in interest. Ten years later it comes due. Uh oh, they now need $106M this year but only budgeted for 6 of it. Our bureaucrats spend every penny of tax revenue over the last decade and never made allotments of $10M a year to pay back this loan. So what do they do? Thankfully the rate is 4%, so they can borrow a whopping $150M and still pay the same interest! So that's exactly what they do. Now they get to pay the same $6M every year and also have an additional $50M to spend on "growth" and "sustainability". This has happened across the board in nearly every municipality (city, suburb, etc.) across the nation. This is why the Fed hasn't raised rates. It's the same reason why Japan is in the situation they are in...for 30+ years.
If they instead were unable to take on the debt they would be forced to either raise taxes, cut services, or some combination thereof. The past ~40 years have seen an ever decreasing interest rate environment, which allows municipalities to borrow money by issuing bonds, pay only the interest, then when the principal comes due, they roll it into a new bond that borrows even more. That new bond pays the old one off and then they have some more borrowed money to work with. And because interest rates have gone down more in the years since the previous bond issuance, they can pay the same interest. Basically, they just keep rolling debt over so that the principal is never paid down. Example - in 2000, bond rates were around 6%. In 2010 they were around 4%. In 2000, if a municipality took out $100M to build schools or whatever, they need to pay $6M a year in interest. Ten years later it comes due. Uh oh, they now need $106M this year but only budgeted for 6 of it. Our bureaucrats spend every penny of tax revenue over the last decade and never made allotments of $10M a year to pay back this loan. So what do they do? Thankfully the rate is 4%, so they can borrow a whopping $150M and still pay the same interest! So that's exactly what they do. Now they get to pay the same $6M every year and also have an additional $50M to spend on "growth" and "sustainability". This has happened across the board in nearly every municipality (city, suburb, etc.) across the nation. This is why the Fed hasn't raised rates. It's the same reason why Japan is in the situation they are in...for 30+ years.
I have in fact read that article :). It's quite a good overview.
Also, it costs more to build and maintain a house (compared to a flat), and most of the other countries, even the developed ones, aren't as affluent as the US.
But after 15 years my house is paid off. With renting, you're paying for the rest of your life. After my mortgage I only pay taxes and upkeep which is a fraction as much.
Sure, but you could buy something that isn't a detached, single family house.
When I moved from my apartment I bought a house (no mortgage). When I add up extra utilities costs, taxes, insurance, and maintenance it comes up to about 75% of what I was paying for rent.
When I moved from my apartment I bought a house (no mortgage). When I add up extra utilities costs, taxes, insurance, and maintenance it comes up to about 75% of what I was paying for rent.
If your house was converted to cash, and that cash invested at, say, 7%, that is what the "paid off" house is costing you.
It's not a matter of renting vs buying. In many other countries, just paying off the mortgage for a flat will take 15-30 years.
That's true, but you still find higher rates of urban living in similarly rich countries with lower subsidies on sprawl.
Roads, sewers, and mortgages aren't subsidized in my suburb. We pay for all of it.
If you live in the US that can't be true. The Interstate Highway System, state highways, etc. are government funded infrastructure that isn't funded locally. The mortgage market is also distorted/subsidized nationwide by the federal government. I'm not sure about sewers.
You can only count the highway system as a subsidy if you pretend a highway between, say, San Francisco and Los Angeles is there to benefit the people of the Central Valley. And it's not.
Certainly the mortgage market is distorted by the federal government, but I have yet to see any evidence of subsidy for suburban borrowers.
Certainly the mortgage market is distorted by the federal government, but I have yet to see any evidence of subsidy for suburban borrowers.
The home mortgage interest deduction is effectively a subsidy for suburban borrowers.
Why would you think that? Are people who buy million dollar shacks in SF forgoing their deduction? It's hard to imagine.
It's a subsidy for all mortgages. More people would rent if not for this subsidy. Also any roady that connect your suburb to anywhere are heavily subsidized, to the tune of greater than 60%. If your suburb build its sewers with bonds, they too end up receiving various forms of subsidy. It would be truly unique in the whole of the US if your community's property taxes covered the full cost of local services and weren't partially covered from the state's general fund.
>t's a subsidy for all mortgages. More people would rent if not for this subsidy.
Well, okay. You still haven't made the case it disproportionately benefits the suburbs. People who buy houses in the city pay a lot more money, and presumably get to write off a lot more interest.
>Also any roady that connect your suburb to anywhere are heavily subsidized, to the tune of greater than 60%.
So what you're saying is cities benefit enormously from a subsidy that allows companies to employ people who don't work in the city and import products from other places?
>If your suburb build its sewers with bonds, they too end up receiving various forms of subsidy.
Oh? Do you have some evidence this is true?
>It would be truly unique in the whole of the US if your community's property taxes covered the full cost of local services and weren't partially covered from the state's general fund.
Well, sure, but we pay state taxes. I would expect some of that money to come back.
Well, okay. You still haven't made the case it disproportionately benefits the suburbs. People who buy houses in the city pay a lot more money, and presumably get to write off a lot more interest.
>Also any roady that connect your suburb to anywhere are heavily subsidized, to the tune of greater than 60%.
So what you're saying is cities benefit enormously from a subsidy that allows companies to employ people who don't work in the city and import products from other places?
>If your suburb build its sewers with bonds, they too end up receiving various forms of subsidy.
Oh? Do you have some evidence this is true?
>It would be truly unique in the whole of the US if your community's property taxes covered the full cost of local services and weren't partially covered from the state's general fund.
Well, sure, but we pay state taxes. I would expect some of that money to come back.
I expect you'll find that your city core pays for it. Every calculation I've ever seen about the expenses of suburbs ends up with downtown paying for suburban development. It's cheaper to service a downtown property, more expensive to service a suburban one; and the suburban properties are typically paying lower property taxes, not higher. Heavily subsidized suburban residents then go to their city council meetings and complain about property taxes going to mass transit and similar uses. shrug
How much has downtown Detroit paid for Auburn Hills the past 20 years or so?
Or, in another way: are these just recent calculations? There are a lot of places where downtown cores hollowed and had most of the big-financial-impact businesses move out to the suburbs a few decades ago, and now that reversed more recently, and will probably cycle around a few more times in the future.
Or, in another way: are these just recent calculations? There are a lot of places where downtown cores hollowed and had most of the big-financial-impact businesses move out to the suburbs a few decades ago, and now that reversed more recently, and will probably cycle around a few more times in the future.
>I expect you'll find that your city core pays for it.
I expect you're wrong about that.
> Every calculation I've ever seen about the expenses of suburbs ends up with downtown paying for suburban development.
It all depends on who is doing the accounting. Much of the infrastructure built outside cities isn't built for the local residents at all, but it's there to service the cities. As I pointed out above, you can't count a highway between San Francisco and Los Angeles as a subsidy for the Central Valley, and yet that's exactly what academics in at places like CUNY do. How convenient.
>Heavily subsidized suburban residents then go to their city council meetings and complain about property taxes going to mass transit and similar uses. shrug
I mostly see complaining by people who live in cities. People who state confidently how much more efficient cities are and then can't explain why everything they buy is more expensive. Shrug.
I expect you're wrong about that.
> Every calculation I've ever seen about the expenses of suburbs ends up with downtown paying for suburban development.
It all depends on who is doing the accounting. Much of the infrastructure built outside cities isn't built for the local residents at all, but it's there to service the cities. As I pointed out above, you can't count a highway between San Francisco and Los Angeles as a subsidy for the Central Valley, and yet that's exactly what academics in at places like CUNY do. How convenient.
>Heavily subsidized suburban residents then go to their city council meetings and complain about property taxes going to mass transit and similar uses. shrug
I mostly see complaining by people who live in cities. People who state confidently how much more efficient cities are and then can't explain why everything they buy is more expensive. Shrug.
> It's pretty telling that no evidence whatsoever is provided for this claim.
FWIW, I'm technically a Millennial (born in 1984, Millennials are born 1982-2004), and I'm a living counter-example to the article's claims.
I love living in the suburbs, and I have no problems whatsoever with "visial monotony and social conformity". Really, I'd love to just be an anonymous cog in the machine. I want lots of space and no noise, and I'm visually in love with with the look and feel of sprawl.
The only demand I make is that I strongly prefer living in southwestern and some midwestern suburbs that make use of an arterial grid (e.g. Dallas, Detroit, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Columbus), and I despise the loosey-goosey layout of northeastern suburbs (I have family in NY... the suburbs there feel rural, and I just don't like that). Cities that use an arterial grid tend to place shopping centers at every intersection of arterials, and I like living close enough to one of those intersections that I can walk to the supermarket if I need to. That is the only kind of "walkability" I care about.
Interestingly enough, a recent local tragedy actually brought to light just how much of my age group in my area prefers suburban living. Last weekend, there was a mass shooting at a football watch party in a suburban home in Plano, TX. The shooter and the victims were all fairly close in age to me, leaning younger (the shooter was my age exactly, one other victim was a year older than me, four were 1-5 years younger than me, and three were 7-10 years younger than me). All of them are Millennial suburbanites living in a pretty conservative, sprawling suburb. Furthermore, as I found out after the shooting I have multiple friends who live in that neighborhood, all of whom are within two years of my age. Whatever this alleged trend in suburbs is, it didn't seem to affect Millennials who attended UTD in the mid-to-late '00s.
(As an aside, this has been pretty devastating--the suburbs of Dallas are tight-knit enough that everyone knows each other, I have mutual friends with almost every single person involved, we all went to the same university, and I'd met one of the victims before. Part of the reason I'm writing about this at all is to help me process what happened. And my friends who live there are seriously freaked because their neighbors just got murdered and there are cops and tourists all over their neighborhood now.)
FWIW, I'm technically a Millennial (born in 1984, Millennials are born 1982-2004), and I'm a living counter-example to the article's claims.
I love living in the suburbs, and I have no problems whatsoever with "visial monotony and social conformity". Really, I'd love to just be an anonymous cog in the machine. I want lots of space and no noise, and I'm visually in love with with the look and feel of sprawl.
The only demand I make is that I strongly prefer living in southwestern and some midwestern suburbs that make use of an arterial grid (e.g. Dallas, Detroit, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Columbus), and I despise the loosey-goosey layout of northeastern suburbs (I have family in NY... the suburbs there feel rural, and I just don't like that). Cities that use an arterial grid tend to place shopping centers at every intersection of arterials, and I like living close enough to one of those intersections that I can walk to the supermarket if I need to. That is the only kind of "walkability" I care about.
Interestingly enough, a recent local tragedy actually brought to light just how much of my age group in my area prefers suburban living. Last weekend, there was a mass shooting at a football watch party in a suburban home in Plano, TX. The shooter and the victims were all fairly close in age to me, leaning younger (the shooter was my age exactly, one other victim was a year older than me, four were 1-5 years younger than me, and three were 7-10 years younger than me). All of them are Millennial suburbanites living in a pretty conservative, sprawling suburb. Furthermore, as I found out after the shooting I have multiple friends who live in that neighborhood, all of whom are within two years of my age. Whatever this alleged trend in suburbs is, it didn't seem to affect Millennials who attended UTD in the mid-to-late '00s.
(As an aside, this has been pretty devastating--the suburbs of Dallas are tight-knit enough that everyone knows each other, I have mutual friends with almost every single person involved, we all went to the same university, and I'd met one of the victims before. Part of the reason I'm writing about this at all is to help me process what happened. And my friends who live there are seriously freaked because their neighbors just got murdered and there are cops and tourists all over their neighborhood now.)
> no evidence whatsoever is provided for it. Could it be that the New York Times writers are projecting their slavish political devotion onto the rest of us?
It is important to note this is in the opinion section. This is written by a professor at MIT, not anyone on the NYTimes staff. ( https://dusp.mit.edu/faculty/alan-berger )
> Once we're all married with school-age kids, we will choose to move out to the plain, boring suburbs just like the generations before us.
You provide no evidence for this, and the evidence is strong against you. Nearly everyone who wants to show "suburb preference" tries to show that "hey, when people turn 30-35, they still tend to move to the suburbs", which is no surprise. And the opinion article in the NYTimes even does this. That is "lifecycle change" and obviously will occur.
But the question is whether there has been generational change. Are a higher percentage of 35 year olds living in the city than there were 15 years ago? Are a higher percentage of families choosing to live in cities than 15 years ago? The answers to these questions is yes, indicating a generational change towards the city. You see new groups popping up pushing for better facilities for strollers. They have become common enough on public transit that Boston tried to ban them. That's an indication that people are no longer fleeing to the suburbs once they have kids.
I don't have a convenient graph for city vs. suburbs, but I do have one for the somewhat related homeownership[0]. What the graph shows is that yes, there is a lifecycle where more people own homes as they get older, but there is also a generational change where 2014's 42 year old is less likely to own a home than 2001's 42 year old. And the same for pretty much every age from 20-65.
[0] https://goo.gl/wp1eQu
It is important to note this is in the opinion section. This is written by a professor at MIT, not anyone on the NYTimes staff. ( https://dusp.mit.edu/faculty/alan-berger )
> Once we're all married with school-age kids, we will choose to move out to the plain, boring suburbs just like the generations before us.
You provide no evidence for this, and the evidence is strong against you. Nearly everyone who wants to show "suburb preference" tries to show that "hey, when people turn 30-35, they still tend to move to the suburbs", which is no surprise. And the opinion article in the NYTimes even does this. That is "lifecycle change" and obviously will occur.
But the question is whether there has been generational change. Are a higher percentage of 35 year olds living in the city than there were 15 years ago? Are a higher percentage of families choosing to live in cities than 15 years ago? The answers to these questions is yes, indicating a generational change towards the city. You see new groups popping up pushing for better facilities for strollers. They have become common enough on public transit that Boston tried to ban them. That's an indication that people are no longer fleeing to the suburbs once they have kids.
I don't have a convenient graph for city vs. suburbs, but I do have one for the somewhat related homeownership[0]. What the graph shows is that yes, there is a lifecycle where more people own homes as they get older, but there is also a generational change where 2014's 42 year old is less likely to own a home than 2001's 42 year old. And the same for pretty much every age from 20-65.
[0] https://goo.gl/wp1eQu
"Once we're all married with school-age kids, we will choose to move out to the plain, boring suburbs just like the generations before us."
Speak for yourself. I could also say the only reason people in the US don't choose to live in the city is because they're not really allowed to, what with it being basically illegal to build nice cities any more (parking minimums, zoning, etc.)
Also, if nobody wants to live in the city it's hard to explain why they're so expensive. Somebody's paying those prices, after all.
Speak for yourself. I could also say the only reason people in the US don't choose to live in the city is because they're not really allowed to, what with it being basically illegal to build nice cities any more (parking minimums, zoning, etc.)
Also, if nobody wants to live in the city it's hard to explain why they're so expensive. Somebody's paying those prices, after all.
Community planners should really think about how to "modularize" / "componentize" neighborhoods. What's valuable to the next generation may end up being despised by future generations. Also human civilization is only at the infancy of what technology will be capable of.
Unfortunately capitalism as a concept causes buyers and sellers to only concern themselves with the immediate future. "Can I sell this to someone tomorrow?"
A lot of industries can afford this short-sightedness, but there is only so much physical space (and orders of magnitude less that is livable) on the planet.
Unfortunately capitalism as a concept causes buyers and sellers to only concern themselves with the immediate future. "Can I sell this to someone tomorrow?"
A lot of industries can afford this short-sightedness, but there is only so much physical space (and orders of magnitude less that is livable) on the planet.
Times nods to the fact that millennials are not as homogeneous as society thinks:
> millennials, who, as it turns out, are not a monolithic generation
Then, I feel they go right back to the attitude in a new context:
> Yet millennial suburbanites want a new kind of landscape.
> millennials, who, as it turns out, are not a monolithic generation
Then, I feel they go right back to the attitude in a new context:
> Yet millennial suburbanites want a new kind of landscape.
The future belongs to bikes. With safe and smooth infrastructure it's the most efficient and healthiest way to get around. It's not a coincidence that Dutch kids are the happiest in the world.
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it wasn't until I noticed the animated clouds in the background that I was sure the image of the "future" suburb with houses that weren't shaped like regular houses and the staggering innovation of roads that are curved hadn't been drawn at some time in the, say, 1930s.
On closer inspection, there is a difference in vision, but they might want to reconsider the sustainability implications of the bird that disappears and is replaced by a drone...
On closer inspection, there is a difference in vision, but they might want to reconsider the sustainability implications of the bird that disappears and is replaced by a drone...
This article sounds a whole lot like every "housing of the future" ever written--except the flying cars have been split into robot cars for people and flying delivery drones for everything else.
And none of the authors ever seem to indicate any understanding of why the suburban housing development exist in its current form before hand-waving away all those real factors and baking up some pie-in-the-sky nonsense to support whatever their vision of the future may be.
We already know what a sustainable, efficient suburb looks like. It's a city block. But if people who live in suburbs actually wanted that, we'd have more urbs and fewer suburbs.
And none of the authors ever seem to indicate any understanding of why the suburban housing development exist in its current form before hand-waving away all those real factors and baking up some pie-in-the-sky nonsense to support whatever their vision of the future may be.
We already know what a sustainable, efficient suburb looks like. It's a city block. But if people who live in suburbs actually wanted that, we'd have more urbs and fewer suburbs.
As a millenial who lives in an east coast HOA controlled suburb, the biggest thing about modern suburbs that bothers me, especially HOA controlled ones, is the need for useless grass and manicured shrubs that require constant upkeep for purely ascetic reasons. I would love to see more fruit trees and vegetable gardens. It brings a lot more joy and peace of mind.
The article seemed like kind of a fluff piece reminiscent of the articles people used to write about flying cars, robot maids, videophones, etc.., but for anyone who's interested in this kind of thing, I'd recommend A Pattern Language by Christopher Alexander. It was written 40 years ago, but the ideas are still relevant, I think.
The idealized suburb of this article sounds a lot more like extramunicipally extending the service range of a major city than it describes any real place. look to new york and chicago and where their home prices are raising fastest to know where folks are trying to move and what for.
Eh, no thanks. I'll continue to live in the woods in Alaska.
The only way, I can see this being built, is if new cities are created. These cities need to be populated by employers first: once that's there, most people that works there will find housing there too.
I wish these articles would stop pretending like everyone has a plethora of housing choices available - talking about what millenials "want" ~ our so called housing preferences. Our housing preference, first and foremost is to have a roof over our head without it costing more than 60% of our paycheck.
People go where the jobs go, there's no choice - this will always be the case as long as people need money, at least until remote work becomes possible