Is Anyone Good Enough for an H1-B Visa?(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
Is Anyone Good Enough for an H1-B Visa?
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/opinion/immigration-visa-h1b-trump-.html
45 comments
The inconsistency in the logic is accompanied by a consistency in self interest.
Tech is one area in which young people can generally make a good living, sometimes without the need for significant college education. While I am sympathetic to immigrants (sometimes I want to move to America) I also understand that people do not want people from overseas gunning for their job.
Spys always have impeccable credentials. Think of how much damage one Chinese Anthony Levandowski could do.
Would it be possible to get statistics of people of similar application strength and see if they separate by certain factors such as sex, nationality , or race ?
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The message from the US administration to skilled migrants is loud and clear: you're not welcome to the US, don't waste your time, don't commit yourself to a country that has no interest in treating you like anything else aside from an expendable resource with no promise of a future.
Use your skills and intellect and go to countries that value talent. There's excellent job opportunities in Canada, Western Europe and even many of the originating countries for a lot of potential migrants nowadays. Venture capital is starting to realize this and slowly but surely they'll fund efforts in startups outside of the US.
I looked into opportunities in the US and the uncertainty of the migratory status is way too much, combined with the horrendous cost of living in coastal American cities. I'd rather look into German or French companies, or just work remote for a fraction of an American salary but with much greater opportunities to save money.
Use your skills and intellect and go to countries that value talent. There's excellent job opportunities in Canada, Western Europe and even many of the originating countries for a lot of potential migrants nowadays. Venture capital is starting to realize this and slowly but surely they'll fund efforts in startups outside of the US.
I looked into opportunities in the US and the uncertainty of the migratory status is way too much, combined with the horrendous cost of living in coastal American cities. I'd rather look into German or French companies, or just work remote for a fraction of an American salary but with much greater opportunities to save money.
I really really want my message here to be clear. I do not support this nonsense but I would love for people to start very successful businesses in their own respective countries.
One, I am tired of the notion you have to be in a coastal city to be successful (SF, LA, Seattle etc).
Two, as a tech industry we need a wake up call that a tremendous amount of talent comes from foreign workers and we should be more thankful of this.
Three, further competitive wages. I believe that the visas hurt the competitive market for tech talent. Yes, at the expense of foreign talent this will happen. It’s shitty, and I’m really sorry that it will take a tweeting fool of a POTUS encouraging xenophobic behavior to have this happen.
Fourth, I think as a country we have to understand the real economic pain experienced when we no longer have access to overseas talent.
Again, I hope my post doesn’t come off wrong but it can be hard to post on this subject without pissing people off.
There will be shorter term benefits to US workers but ideally this has some economic pain to US Tech companies and we open our borders to overseas tech talent with a more friendly visa program and improved wages.
One, I am tired of the notion you have to be in a coastal city to be successful (SF, LA, Seattle etc).
Two, as a tech industry we need a wake up call that a tremendous amount of talent comes from foreign workers and we should be more thankful of this.
Three, further competitive wages. I believe that the visas hurt the competitive market for tech talent. Yes, at the expense of foreign talent this will happen. It’s shitty, and I’m really sorry that it will take a tweeting fool of a POTUS encouraging xenophobic behavior to have this happen.
Fourth, I think as a country we have to understand the real economic pain experienced when we no longer have access to overseas talent.
Again, I hope my post doesn’t come off wrong but it can be hard to post on this subject without pissing people off.
There will be shorter term benefits to US workers but ideally this has some economic pain to US Tech companies and we open our borders to overseas tech talent with a more friendly visa program and improved wages.
> One, I am tired of the notion you have to be in a coastal city to be successful (SF, LA, Seattle etc).
Economic growth has not been equal, though. I live in Springfield, MO. I have plenty of certifications, a degree, and a year of tech support experience, yet it's been extremely tough to find a job that I could find in a heartbeat in a tech hub.
> Two, as a tech industry we need a wake up call that a tremendous amount of talent comes from foreign workers and we should be more thankful of this.
Shipping in foreign workers(and outsourcing) is part of the reason it's tough for me to find a job. The labor market has been kept artificially loose, which removes the incentive to develop the economies of more "rural" areas of the country. (I live in the third largest city in my state, so it shouldn't really be considered rural, but I digress)
> Fourth, I think as a country we have to understand the real economic pain experienced when we no longer have access to overseas talent.
Wages have been stagnant yet return on capital has been increasing massively. It seems to me like our problem isn't economic growth, it's distribution of that wealth. When Americans compete with people in lower costs of areas, lower expectations for their quality of life, and less leverage, it hurts American workers just so the owners can maximize profit.
Middle class jobs have been shipped overseas and lower class jobs are being displaced by illegal immigrants in many states. At what point should we do something about that?
edit: to those downvoting me, can you please explain why? What in my post was inaccurate?
Economic growth has not been equal, though. I live in Springfield, MO. I have plenty of certifications, a degree, and a year of tech support experience, yet it's been extremely tough to find a job that I could find in a heartbeat in a tech hub.
> Two, as a tech industry we need a wake up call that a tremendous amount of talent comes from foreign workers and we should be more thankful of this.
Shipping in foreign workers(and outsourcing) is part of the reason it's tough for me to find a job. The labor market has been kept artificially loose, which removes the incentive to develop the economies of more "rural" areas of the country. (I live in the third largest city in my state, so it shouldn't really be considered rural, but I digress)
> Fourth, I think as a country we have to understand the real economic pain experienced when we no longer have access to overseas talent.
Wages have been stagnant yet return on capital has been increasing massively. It seems to me like our problem isn't economic growth, it's distribution of that wealth. When Americans compete with people in lower costs of areas, lower expectations for their quality of life, and less leverage, it hurts American workers just so the owners can maximize profit.
Middle class jobs have been shipped overseas and lower class jobs are being displaced by illegal immigrants in many states. At what point should we do something about that?
edit: to those downvoting me, can you please explain why? What in my post was inaccurate?
Your post is inaccurate because your belief that competition within the local American market distorts prices is somewhat misplaced, IMO.
Talent is global. Large corporations have satellite offices, and there's a lot of nice places to live outside of the US. If people aren't going to the Bay, then they're going to London, or Berlin or Frankfurt or Paris, because costs in those cities are ultimately similar. Good devs want to go to interesting places.
And if you can't pay for those places, there's a lot of alternatives in satellite offices in countries with a lower cost of living but incredibly talented engineers. Argentina, Poland, Czech Republic, Romania, all have their own hubs with substantially lower costs.
No amount of visa restrictions in the US is going to change those variables. And if the engineers can't go to the US, American companies just open satellite offices; Amazon has just opened an important AWS office in Madrid and it's attracting a lot of smart devs of Latin American countries who would be interested in immigrating to places with much different cultures or who can't be arsed to go through the pains of the American visa process.
Talent is global. Large corporations have satellite offices, and there's a lot of nice places to live outside of the US. If people aren't going to the Bay, then they're going to London, or Berlin or Frankfurt or Paris, because costs in those cities are ultimately similar. Good devs want to go to interesting places.
And if you can't pay for those places, there's a lot of alternatives in satellite offices in countries with a lower cost of living but incredibly talented engineers. Argentina, Poland, Czech Republic, Romania, all have their own hubs with substantially lower costs.
No amount of visa restrictions in the US is going to change those variables. And if the engineers can't go to the US, American companies just open satellite offices; Amazon has just opened an important AWS office in Madrid and it's attracting a lot of smart devs of Latin American countries who would be interested in immigrating to places with much different cultures or who can't be arsed to go through the pains of the American visa process.
> No amount of visa restrictions in the US is going to change those variables.
Hence the growing disdain for globalization, particularly in the parts of the country that _haven't_ been growing economically. Americans' wages have been stagnant or growing lower than inflation for decades. When that has been occurring, it doesn't make sense for workers to be pro-immigration or pro-globalization, because that would increase labor competition.
If we compete against developers in other countries that have subsidized education, free healthcare, and a lower standard of living, how is that fair to American workers?
Should we _lower_ American standards to compete with them, even though corporate profits are through the roof? Personally, I don't think so. At some point, quality of life needs to be prioritized over return on investment.
Before you say "but it increases the quality of life of that foreigner," we don't live in a global government. I feel that our economy should be controllable by our government, and our government has no control over the economy or laws of another country.
Hence the growing disdain for globalization, particularly in the parts of the country that _haven't_ been growing economically. Americans' wages have been stagnant or growing lower than inflation for decades. When that has been occurring, it doesn't make sense for workers to be pro-immigration or pro-globalization, because that would increase labor competition.
If we compete against developers in other countries that have subsidized education, free healthcare, and a lower standard of living, how is that fair to American workers?
Should we _lower_ American standards to compete with them, even though corporate profits are through the roof? Personally, I don't think so. At some point, quality of life needs to be prioritized over return on investment.
Before you say "but it increases the quality of life of that foreigner," we don't live in a global government. I feel that our economy should be controllable by our government, and our government has no control over the economy or laws of another country.
Yeah. Clearly the way to improve this situation is to get rid of the immigrants and reduce taxes on the corporations and the richest. Clearly.
I said nothing about taxes. Also, sarcasm does nothing to advance the conversation. If you see logical flaws in my thinking, please teach me. However, snide comments do nothing but reinforce preexisting thought processes.
That isn’t going to stop constituentcies from voting for populist candidates and policies.
As long as economic prospects deteriorate, they’ll double down and demand the state use their force to enact the desired outcome. And it can’t be said it won’t work, because China does it very well.
As long as economic prospects deteriorate, they’ll double down and demand the state use their force to enact the desired outcome. And it can’t be said it won’t work, because China does it very well.
Depends on what your goals are, if it's the quality of life, US might not be the best choice, otherwise, how would you explain that with all that hostility towards skilled immigrants, there are still plenty of people applying for US jobs?
There's always people applying for jobs and there's always people who want to improve their standard of living. That doesn't make it the best alternative.
Also, a most people outside of the US have an idealized vision of how it is. They rarely get to hear about the exorbitant costs of education and housing, the nonexistant public transportation and absence of a social safety net, or the limited vacation time. For a lot of younger people those things don't matter either, and guess who are the people most likely to immigrate.
It's also true that for a lot of highly specialized niche markets, the coastal cities have a disproportionately high level of compensation that can make up for those things.
However, in my experience, a significant number of people with H1Bs have stayed in the US for a couple years, found the living conditions on the Bay to be completely not worth it, then went back home with a pile of cash.
Also, a most people outside of the US have an idealized vision of how it is. They rarely get to hear about the exorbitant costs of education and housing, the nonexistant public transportation and absence of a social safety net, or the limited vacation time. For a lot of younger people those things don't matter either, and guess who are the people most likely to immigrate.
It's also true that for a lot of highly specialized niche markets, the coastal cities have a disproportionately high level of compensation that can make up for those things.
However, in my experience, a significant number of people with H1Bs have stayed in the US for a couple years, found the living conditions on the Bay to be completely not worth it, then went back home with a pile of cash.
I'm a Canadian who was on an H1B working in the valley for the past 6 years working at Director/VP Eng. level for various technology startups.
As you mentioned, the message is quite clear. The US is closing its doors. They no longer want immigrants (skilled or otherwise) working or living in their country. Read the comments in the article. Look at the changes coming from the Trump administration. Even while crossing the border you get a sense that you are not welcome there.
This year, I gave that up and returned to Canada. It feels great to be back, contributing to the booming local tech scene, and I am so thankful to call this amazing country home.
As you mentioned, the message is quite clear. The US is closing its doors. They no longer want immigrants (skilled or otherwise) working or living in their country. Read the comments in the article. Look at the changes coming from the Trump administration. Even while crossing the border you get a sense that you are not welcome there.
This year, I gave that up and returned to Canada. It feels great to be back, contributing to the booming local tech scene, and I am so thankful to call this amazing country home.
I agree, that is the message from the US right now, and it is harmful.
I also feel strongly that the H1B itself is a pretty horrendous program. The amount of corporate control over the immigration process, the power to decide who is allowed to come here and the conditions under which they are allowed to remain, the restrictive nature of the jobs an "immigrant" is allowed to work... the whole thing is horrible.
I insist that a person can be both very pro immigration and absolutely aghast at the way this program is run.
I say this with full understanding that for a lot of would be immigrants who lack family connections, this is your only viable path, so none of this blame falls on the people who come here. But of course, that's just extra gravy for the corporations, especially in Silicon Valley - the lack of viable alternate immigration paths just makes their control over the H1B system even more valuable.
Freedom to decide how and where you're work, to me, is a core civil and human right. Nobody owes you a job, but you should have the right to pursue work according to your own personal interests, in response to pay, work conditions, location, and other market signals. If this means people don't become developers in Silicon Valley in the numbers tech companies believe they should, that is not a problem for the government to solve for them, certainly not by handing them control over a huge "shadow" immigration system.
I can't be surprised that these corporations are succeeding in tarring those who oppose the H1B visa with the stink of "anti-immigrant" sentiment. That's how the system works, I guess. But it's pure manipulation. They act like they're champions of the immigrant, but sadly, what they lobby for is a deeply corrupt and manipulative program that allows them what I consider an unacceptable amount of power over an individual's life.
This H1B program is horrible, make no doubt about it. I would welcome a general skilled immigration program that preserves freedom for immigrants (though I would be opposed to overly emphasizing STEM, as I don't believe there is any meaningful shortage of STEM workers that can't be explained as a perfectly rational response to pay and working conditions among people with the talent an ambition to work in demanding fields).
I also feel strongly that the H1B itself is a pretty horrendous program. The amount of corporate control over the immigration process, the power to decide who is allowed to come here and the conditions under which they are allowed to remain, the restrictive nature of the jobs an "immigrant" is allowed to work... the whole thing is horrible.
I insist that a person can be both very pro immigration and absolutely aghast at the way this program is run.
I say this with full understanding that for a lot of would be immigrants who lack family connections, this is your only viable path, so none of this blame falls on the people who come here. But of course, that's just extra gravy for the corporations, especially in Silicon Valley - the lack of viable alternate immigration paths just makes their control over the H1B system even more valuable.
Freedom to decide how and where you're work, to me, is a core civil and human right. Nobody owes you a job, but you should have the right to pursue work according to your own personal interests, in response to pay, work conditions, location, and other market signals. If this means people don't become developers in Silicon Valley in the numbers tech companies believe they should, that is not a problem for the government to solve for them, certainly not by handing them control over a huge "shadow" immigration system.
I can't be surprised that these corporations are succeeding in tarring those who oppose the H1B visa with the stink of "anti-immigrant" sentiment. That's how the system works, I guess. But it's pure manipulation. They act like they're champions of the immigrant, but sadly, what they lobby for is a deeply corrupt and manipulative program that allows them what I consider an unacceptable amount of power over an individual's life.
This H1B program is horrible, make no doubt about it. I would welcome a general skilled immigration program that preserves freedom for immigrants (though I would be opposed to overly emphasizing STEM, as I don't believe there is any meaningful shortage of STEM workers that can't be explained as a perfectly rational response to pay and working conditions among people with the talent an ambition to work in demanding fields).
Uh, do you know how to mine coal? Do you have a new way of making it "clean"? Because those are the people we are looking for to make us great again... we're smart enough already, we don't need "artificial" intelligence. Thanks, bye.
/s (I too had been denied an H1-B visa many years ago, but now have Permanent Residency - I empathize with the writer's frustration)
/s (I too had been denied an H1-B visa many years ago, but now have Permanent Residency - I empathize with the writer's frustration)
Is H1B reserved to Einsteins and Torvalds?
Why would Einstein and Torvalds go through this nonsense bureaucracy?
When those guys came, the process was smooth and welcoming. Not anymore.
When those guys came, the process was smooth and welcoming. Not anymore.
> When those guys came, the process was smooth and welcoming. Not anymore.
In 1930s immigration was capped immigration to 150k. All immigration from Asian countries was barred (with few exceptions). Oh and US deported 400k Mexicans, as well.
I think we'd want to pick a different time period to show the friendliness of US immigration. Otherwise we are proving the opposite argument that even with an unwelcoming and xenophobic policy the best and brightest were still able to immigrate.
In 1930s immigration was capped immigration to 150k. All immigration from Asian countries was barred (with few exceptions). Oh and US deported 400k Mexicans, as well.
I think we'd want to pick a different time period to show the friendliness of US immigration. Otherwise we are proving the opposite argument that even with an unwelcoming and xenophobic policy the best and brightest were still able to immigrate.
AFAIK, Einstien was neither Mexican nor Asian.
Actually when Einstein came the process was anything but smooth and welcoming. Einstein fled Europe because of anti-jewish policies yet jewish immigration to the US was also restricted, as was immigration from Asia. There were notorious cases of refugee ships denied entry.
Torvalds, happily, did not face the same problems.
Torvalds, happily, did not face the same problems.
No, there is O1 visa for that.
That's actually not true, criteria for O-1 are pretty liberal (at least they were until Trump reforms).
A few weeks back I talked to an artist who was on O1 visa, and she said she needs to renew this visa once every year, and she has to prove that she is doing a significant amount of work in her field to maintain eligibility.
I'm really not in favour of these initiatives, but I'd like to posit maybe it's because he was skilled in law and business?
What are others thoughts?
What are others thoughts?
The Americans have choosen the xenophobic route. As is their right. We who are not Americans can complain, but in the end it is their country, their rules.
As an American, please don’t hold fast to this opinion. Yes, a significant portion of the population is sympathetic to such ideas. But only 19% of the population voted for Trump, and a significant amount of that 19% voted for reasons that have nothing to do with immigration.
So yes, the ~10% of the population that is anti-immigrant is in power. It’s unfortunate, but it will get better
So yes, the ~10% of the population that is anti-immigrant is in power. It’s unfortunate, but it will get better
There's varying degrees of "anti-immigration." I'd be very willing to bet that there's a larger support for deportation of illegal immigrants than 10%, and those who know anything about H1-B visa issues would mostly be for reform of that program at very least.
When forming political generalizations of the country, keep in mind that there are massive cultural differences between regions of the country. Just because you don't know of many people against illegal immigration doesn't mean other states don't have that majority opinion.
When forming political generalizations of the country, keep in mind that there are massive cultural differences between regions of the country. Just because you don't know of many people against illegal immigration doesn't mean other states don't have that majority opinion.
I'm from a small town in rural Pennsylvania ("conservative territory"), subsequently lived in NYC, LA, SF, and other cities scattered around the country ("liberal territory"), and now live in Europe. I'd say I have an accurate opinion of the general lay of the land.
But yes, in general you are right. There is no "America." NYC is as different to rural Oklahoma as Paris is to Odessa (Ukraine.)
But yes, in general you are right. There is no "America." NYC is as different to rural Oklahoma as Paris is to Odessa (Ukraine.)
I agree with this
Any country would have 10% of the population that is anti-immigration. I would go so far to say that is true in most countries.
Any country would have 10% of the population that is anti-immigration. I would go so far to say that is true in most countries.
You don't understand. I don't think the US is doing something immoral by stopping immigration. In fact, in the long run maybe it is positive for the world. The guy being deported in the article would surely be beneficial to his native country.
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We didn't choose this. A majority of voters voted against the current administration.
> We didn't choose this. A majority of voters voted against the current administration.
That’s a cop out. Of course we did. The electoral college is our system. If it doesn’t work, then who but us should fix it? Even if you believe the last election was influenced in underhanded ways, we collectively fell for it.
But instead of working together, we’ve become a nation of finger pointers: Not my problem, someone else screwed up.
That’s a cop out. Of course we did. The electoral college is our system. If it doesn’t work, then who but us should fix it? Even if you believe the last election was influenced in underhanded ways, we collectively fell for it.
But instead of working together, we’ve become a nation of finger pointers: Not my problem, someone else screwed up.
I would be all for changing the electoral college, but that would require the agreement of exactly the same people who are given disproportionate power by the electoral college.
Those earning >90k are, which includes all Europeans to chose that historic adventure, whilst all Asians who will earn less are excluded.
Which matches the demands of the American workers, who don't want to replaced by cheap unskilled labour from overseas.
>60% of H1-B visas are a fraud and the new limits try to catch the fraudulents.
>60% of H1-B visas are a fraud and the new limits try to catch the fraudulents.
Some possibilities I have thought of: 1) The people responding in both cases are different 2) Cognitive dissonance 3) They think companies are irrational and so will not opt for remote work even if it's better and several times cheaper
Basically I don't understand why people think a company will be willing to hire person A at a salary of $150k + Benefits cost + office space + 20k direct legal fees related to immigration (+ additional fees to now needing a legal department), but not be willing to hire the exact same person for $50k total except have them work remotely. And that same worker is actually happier with a better standard of living with the 50k.