The ‘untranslatable’ Japanese phrase that predicts love(bbc.com)
bbc.com
The ‘untranslatable’ Japanese phrase that predicts love
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20180103-the-untranslatable-japanese-phrase-that-predicts-love
27 comments
Mila Kunis was asked in an interview how the hell she ended up married to Ashton Kutcher, especially since they had played boyfriend and girlfriend on TV for years and nothing happened.
She said something to the effect that she has a type, and she was at a party and sees this good looking guy across the room, in profile, and thinks, “oh my, who is that?” When he turns around and she sees it’s Ashton she says to herself, “uh oh, I’m in trouble.”
Sounds like that may be closer to the situation here than the more cliched love at first sight.
She said something to the effect that she has a type, and she was at a party and sees this good looking guy across the room, in profile, and thinks, “oh my, who is that?” When he turns around and she sees it’s Ashton she says to herself, “uh oh, I’m in trouble.”
Sounds like that may be closer to the situation here than the more cliched love at first sight.
I had never heard this term until I read this article, but have often thought of a very similar feeling in the past. Maybe it's the same?
The problem is, what I'm thinking of with myself is something that I was not consciously aware of at the time, but that definitely occurred. So I can't relate to the idea of "I will probably fall in love with this person." Rather, it's there's this reaction I have, that's probably some initial attraction, or picking up on subtle cues of their attraction, or mutual attraction, that I'm not aware of at the time.
Generally speaking, I feel like I want to impress this person a lot, and feel kind of inferior or insufficient or something, like I want them to like me. It's not a manipulative feeling, like I want to manipulate them, but rather a genuine feeling of wanting to be a better person, or more attractive, in response to them. It's almost as if my brain is trying to be sexually and romantically attractive to a person I don't even know I'm attracted to.
However, in these situations, I would never really think anything about being attracted to them. If someone brought it up with me, I might even think it's absurd, and not even in a defensive way, but just in the sense that it never ever occurred to me to be in a relationship with them. I don't think to myself "oh that person is really attractive," or "they're the sort of person I'd like to be with." It's something I'm really unaware of, sometimes even for months of knowing the person. It's a very visceral, primal kind of thing.
This article seems to be describing a very similar idea, but at a later stage, where I might be becoming aware of feelings but am not entirely sure of the consequences of it or something.
The problem is, what I'm thinking of with myself is something that I was not consciously aware of at the time, but that definitely occurred. So I can't relate to the idea of "I will probably fall in love with this person." Rather, it's there's this reaction I have, that's probably some initial attraction, or picking up on subtle cues of their attraction, or mutual attraction, that I'm not aware of at the time.
Generally speaking, I feel like I want to impress this person a lot, and feel kind of inferior or insufficient or something, like I want them to like me. It's not a manipulative feeling, like I want to manipulate them, but rather a genuine feeling of wanting to be a better person, or more attractive, in response to them. It's almost as if my brain is trying to be sexually and romantically attractive to a person I don't even know I'm attracted to.
However, in these situations, I would never really think anything about being attracted to them. If someone brought it up with me, I might even think it's absurd, and not even in a defensive way, but just in the sense that it never ever occurred to me to be in a relationship with them. I don't think to myself "oh that person is really attractive," or "they're the sort of person I'd like to be with." It's something I'm really unaware of, sometimes even for months of knowing the person. It's a very visceral, primal kind of thing.
This article seems to be describing a very similar idea, but at a later stage, where I might be becoming aware of feelings but am not entirely sure of the consequences of it or something.
I've certainly met girls that I thought, "I could fall in love with this person." But it wasn't a premonition, just an observation of how great they were, and how well I thought (from a single observation) that we could fit together.
It certainly wasn't fate for any of them, as I didn't date a single one, and I'm quite happy with the woman that I did marry.
It certainly wasn't fate for any of them, as I didn't date a single one, and I'm quite happy with the woman that I did marry.
[deleted]
I feel like I had that when I first met my boyfriend. I basically was convinced I would marry him and he was not he one from our first interaction, and I’m still on that path. It wasn’t that I fell in love instantly, more like a feeling of destiny.
Everything is translatable.
It can take a sentence, a paragraph or an essay.
What the term usually means is: it is not translatable as a single word. And in this case, it isn't.
It can take a sentence, a paragraph or an essay.
What the term usually means is: it is not translatable as a single word. And in this case, it isn't.
The original was a phrase, and my translation is a phrase that's the same number of words.
Did not see your reply earlier. Quite informative indeed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence
Sounds like limerence. Which is a sort of made up word, but a useful one.
Sounds like limerence. Which is a sort of made up word, but a useful one.
Aren't all words sort of made up?
sounds like the French term "coup de foudre"
I think there are some characteristics that will induce koi no yokan:
- jishin ((quiet?) confidence)
- ii kanji (feeling of good)
- yasashii kanji (feeling of gentleness -- maybe something like "has empathy")
- atama ga ii (smart). This is only popular in certain circles and is more typically valued by women in men than the other way) -- most Japanese men seem. It to want their wives to be smarter than they are (although a small portion do).
- a few more?
I just want to express how difficult it was to write the above. I started in English, but then realized that it was only accurate if I used Japanese. The translations are rough, and they are things that strike me as fairly easy to understand in a Japanese context for me, but less so in an English/US context -- maybe due to a wider range of values held in the latter.
On a personal level, a woman I dated when I was younger when I lived in Japan had koi no yokan for me. I regret not marrying her -- she knew us better than I did.
I would love to hear other people's additions and opinions on this matter.
- jishin ((quiet?) confidence)
- ii kanji (feeling of good)
- yasashii kanji (feeling of gentleness -- maybe something like "has empathy")
- atama ga ii (smart). This is only popular in certain circles and is more typically valued by women in men than the other way) -- most Japanese men seem. It to want their wives to be smarter than they are (although a small portion do).
- a few more?
I just want to express how difficult it was to write the above. I started in English, but then realized that it was only accurate if I used Japanese. The translations are rough, and they are things that strike me as fairly easy to understand in a Japanese context for me, but less so in an English/US context -- maybe due to a wider range of values held in the latter.
On a personal level, a woman I dated when I was younger when I lived in Japan had koi no yokan for me. I regret not marrying her -- she knew us better than I did.
I would love to hear other people's additions and opinions on this matter.
There are words that better express the nuances of the Japanese terms:
Jishin–(self-assured-ness) ii kanji–(feels right) yasashii kanji–(nice to someone) atama ga ii–(smart)
Jishin–(self-assured-ness) ii kanji–(feels right) yasashii kanji–(nice to someone) atama ga ii–(smart)
I humbly suggest that your translations of the "kanji" terms do not to justice to the potential range and scope of their meanings.
Jishin also has a range of interpretations that may not be identical for those in non-Japanese contexts.
Jishin also has a range of interpretations that may not be identical for those in non-Japanese contexts.
Do you think these factors commonly affect both men and women? Or that these are more valued in Japan? This list is appealing to me, but it does seem to be describing something like the best possible characteristics in introverts.
I would be interested to hear what the other factors are.
I would be interested to hear what the other factors are.
I'm not sure I understand your question (factors for what?), but I will make some comments that might answer your question.
- Yes, koi no yokan can affect both men and women, but I think it's more common to be identified as such with women feeling it towards men. My personal take is that men with marriage options tend to be more pragmatic when choosing a spouse versus being romantic. That said, I have heard a wider variety of voices from Japanese men than Japanese women (I am a man, so hearing honne/straight talk more frequently from other men is to be expected).
- I don't know if these values are more valued in Japan, but they are definitely more trusted by Japanese women. I've seen women dial in on guys with remarkably little information, and their intuition was completely correct. In general, the higher the psychological health of the woman experiencing koi no yokan, the more accurate the prediction. In contrast, I see women second guess themselves all the time in the US for what amounts to reasons that seem very frivolous or non-consequential.
- I don't think any of the characteristics I have listed are mainly or or exclusively the domain of introverts. Maybe I didn't understand your comment/question.
- As far as other factors go, I think I listed the main ones that I have heard. There may also be a more pragmatic side of things like "he will be a good provider" (remember that Japanese wives typically control the family finances) or "he comes from a good family" (i.e., probably a wealthy and/or powerful family that would facilitate social climbing). Note that these would probably be applied more to Japanese men than foreign men unless the foreigner is committed to living a Japanese lifestyle (this is actually quite rare and quite difficult to do -- 'patio11 has done this except his job is atypical for a Japanese person).
Let me know if you have more questions. I used to know a lot more about this topic, but my interests have moved towards more pragmatic (although perhaps less interesting) topics than the psychology of love.
- Yes, koi no yokan can affect both men and women, but I think it's more common to be identified as such with women feeling it towards men. My personal take is that men with marriage options tend to be more pragmatic when choosing a spouse versus being romantic. That said, I have heard a wider variety of voices from Japanese men than Japanese women (I am a man, so hearing honne/straight talk more frequently from other men is to be expected).
- I don't know if these values are more valued in Japan, but they are definitely more trusted by Japanese women. I've seen women dial in on guys with remarkably little information, and their intuition was completely correct. In general, the higher the psychological health of the woman experiencing koi no yokan, the more accurate the prediction. In contrast, I see women second guess themselves all the time in the US for what amounts to reasons that seem very frivolous or non-consequential.
- I don't think any of the characteristics I have listed are mainly or or exclusively the domain of introverts. Maybe I didn't understand your comment/question.
- As far as other factors go, I think I listed the main ones that I have heard. There may also be a more pragmatic side of things like "he will be a good provider" (remember that Japanese wives typically control the family finances) or "he comes from a good family" (i.e., probably a wealthy and/or powerful family that would facilitate social climbing). Note that these would probably be applied more to Japanese men than foreign men unless the foreigner is committed to living a Japanese lifestyle (this is actually quite rare and quite difficult to do -- 'patio11 has done this except his job is atypical for a Japanese person).
Let me know if you have more questions. I used to know a lot more about this topic, but my interests have moved towards more pragmatic (although perhaps less interesting) topics than the psychology of love.
Sounds pretty superfluous to me. Somewhere between like, having a crush and love, I don't quite see a place for "premonition of love."
Given no other culture has it (as far as mentioned), I'm tempted to believe it's a cultural quirk or a tradition, rather than a universal phenomena.
Given no other culture has it (as far as mentioned), I'm tempted to believe it's a cultural quirk or a tradition, rather than a universal phenomena.
I lived in Japan for about 8 years and I have studied and worked with its culture for many years longer.
I think you're comment is overly dismissive.
First, other cultures probably do have it, but it's just not named as a phenomenon. I personally don't believe the nihonjinron theory. That said, the language and culture is very linguistically and sociologically distant from the west, so some terms don't translate naturally or easily.
Second, you will see this phenomenon in cultures and subcultures that are more collectivist than individualistic. Most countries in the west trend towards individualistic, while most in east Asia trend towards collectivist. Note that how this individualism and collectivism manifests themselves is a fascinating topic, so exceptions are easy to spot depending on the granularity that one looks at a given culture.
Third, the Japanese concept of love can be a bit different than that in the west. Many Japanese marriages are more like brotherly/sisterly love than "romantic" love -- in fact I find that these marriages are often the most stable I have ever seen (this has a lot of caveats, but I'm typing on my phone). Other Japanese marriages are based on a principle of something like "good enough" -- that is, they set a reasonable bar for want they want, and they will happily take anything above that bar. This is a pretty healthy approach imho, as long as the bar is not regularly set too low. A lot of what is wanted is pretty health stuff like a pleasant disposition, empathy, self-confidence, etc. I think people in other cultures wan this, too, and in many situations they can and do get it. That said, sometimes other competing values in the west get in the way of otherwise healthy relationships or marriages from developing.
Anyway, i encourage you to look into this more. It's a fascinating topic, and it's not nihinjinron propanda, imho.
I think you're comment is overly dismissive.
First, other cultures probably do have it, but it's just not named as a phenomenon. I personally don't believe the nihonjinron theory. That said, the language and culture is very linguistically and sociologically distant from the west, so some terms don't translate naturally or easily.
Second, you will see this phenomenon in cultures and subcultures that are more collectivist than individualistic. Most countries in the west trend towards individualistic, while most in east Asia trend towards collectivist. Note that how this individualism and collectivism manifests themselves is a fascinating topic, so exceptions are easy to spot depending on the granularity that one looks at a given culture.
Third, the Japanese concept of love can be a bit different than that in the west. Many Japanese marriages are more like brotherly/sisterly love than "romantic" love -- in fact I find that these marriages are often the most stable I have ever seen (this has a lot of caveats, but I'm typing on my phone). Other Japanese marriages are based on a principle of something like "good enough" -- that is, they set a reasonable bar for want they want, and they will happily take anything above that bar. This is a pretty healthy approach imho, as long as the bar is not regularly set too low. A lot of what is wanted is pretty health stuff like a pleasant disposition, empathy, self-confidence, etc. I think people in other cultures wan this, too, and in many situations they can and do get it. That said, sometimes other competing values in the west get in the way of otherwise healthy relationships or marriages from developing.
Anyway, i encourage you to look into this more. It's a fascinating topic, and it's not nihinjinron propanda, imho.
Arigato, for the thoughtful reply!
A good start would be to look at the word written in Japanese.
恋の予感
恋 is love
予, from 予約 meaning reservation/plan
感, from 感じ meaning feeling.
恋の予感
恋 is love
予, from 予約 meaning reservation/plan
感, from 感じ meaning feeling.
I wouldn't take advice from the Japanese on relationships.
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2011/01/16/national/media-...
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2011/01/16/national/media-...
I don't think this article had advice per say on relationships, just a shallow shallow glimpse into what they view as love and the process of getting into it
indeed, and perhaps practical insight into how a culture different from one's own, thinks
"a word [or phrase] is the skin of a living thought"--not sure who said this, i think it was Oliver Wendall Holmes
"a word [or phrase] is the skin of a living thought"--not sure who said this, i think it was Oliver Wendall Holmes
I wouldn’t take romantic advice from the French either, and yet people do.
The thing I like about other cultures is how we find different solutions to similar problems. They often aren’t better, or are only better in certain situations (see also eating utensils, and availability or scarcity of metal), but they broaden your views on things.
The thing I like about other cultures is how we find different solutions to similar problems. They often aren’t better, or are only better in certain situations (see also eating utensils, and availability or scarcity of metal), but they broaden your views on things.
It's not untranslatable. It's just not a popular culture thing anywhere except Japan.
Sure, it's different from "love at first sight" because you feel you will love them, not that you already do.
Personally, sounds a lot like "lust" or just "interest" to me.