The Trouble with Leaving Facebook Is That We Like Facebook(fivethirtyeight.com)
fivethirtyeight.com
The Trouble with Leaving Facebook Is That We Like Facebook
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-trouble-with-leaving-facebook-is-that-we-like-facebook/
29 comments
"The trouble with losing weight is that we actually like fastfood."
Yeah, no shit. It still makes you stupid and fat and the only reason you won't quit is because their marketing and how their product is built is stronger than your will. So you do the wrong thing despite better knowledge.
Yeah, no shit. It still makes you stupid and fat and the only reason you won't quit is because their marketing and how their product is built is stronger than your will. So you do the wrong thing despite better knowledge.
I don't know how people can compare eating fast-food to using a social network. Is it really bad for you if you use a social network?
Yes. It's been associated with many negative mental health effects. Quick examples, but you can find a lot of studies on it. [0][1]
[0] http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180104-is-social-media-bad...
[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2017/06/30/a-run-d...
[0] http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180104-is-social-media-bad...
[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2017/06/30/a-run-d...
I have to be very mindful that what people post on FB are the fun times, the vacations, etc.
Most people don't post about the drudgery of every day life - work, kids, rinse repeat.
It's easy to think everyone else has a more exciting life than I have.
Most people don't post about the drudgery of every day life - work, kids, rinse repeat.
It's easy to think everyone else has a more exciting life than I have.
It can be, but it doesn't have to be. There are different ways to use it. Fast food is bad for you no matter what, and the only to not be harmed by it is to use it sparingly.
However, social networking can be used constructively, and doesn't necessarily need to be kept to a minimum in order to not be harmful.
However, social networking can be used constructively, and doesn't necessarily need to be kept to a minimum in order to not be harmful.
Soma
No we don't
Yeah. It's really obviously terrible. I don't understand the social media fad at all. (I'm 31 and used Facebook at college until they rolled out the news feed which was clearly evil)
> "That ties in with what scientists call “ambient awareness” — a theory that having access to regular, small, seemingly disconnected bits of information about a person’s life can build stronger social connections, help us feel more bonded and make us happier."
I used to keep a list of people I wanted to be able to remember and stay in touch with. On paper. For most of them, I had no phone number, street address, email address, nothing-- only a name, and a desire to have some kind of contact again in the future. I was fairly certain I might never be able to track some of them down again.
I don't need the list any longer. Those people are all on Facebook. There is no other single place I can easily reconnect with them, let alone see how they're doing and what they're thinking without having to interrupt them and ask them to set aside time for me. I consider this pretty vital to my quality of life, and have no replacement for it.
Does it suck that one corporation owns this experience? Sure, in an abstract sense, but for the time being, there is no alternative. And thus far, there is nothing negative about it for me other than 'data which could potentially maybe be used against me somehow in the future'. I don't really share anything other than neutral/positive moments in my life, and I don't seek out anything other than how my old friends & extended family are doing. So I'm quite okay with it.
People have been hating on it and loudly deleting their profiles for many years. If they posted a bunch of stupid crap, I guess I could see why. But that seems to me like a problem which is easily avoided.
I used to keep a list of people I wanted to be able to remember and stay in touch with. On paper. For most of them, I had no phone number, street address, email address, nothing-- only a name, and a desire to have some kind of contact again in the future. I was fairly certain I might never be able to track some of them down again.
I don't need the list any longer. Those people are all on Facebook. There is no other single place I can easily reconnect with them, let alone see how they're doing and what they're thinking without having to interrupt them and ask them to set aside time for me. I consider this pretty vital to my quality of life, and have no replacement for it.
Does it suck that one corporation owns this experience? Sure, in an abstract sense, but for the time being, there is no alternative. And thus far, there is nothing negative about it for me other than 'data which could potentially maybe be used against me somehow in the future'. I don't really share anything other than neutral/positive moments in my life, and I don't seek out anything other than how my old friends & extended family are doing. So I'm quite okay with it.
People have been hating on it and loudly deleting their profiles for many years. If they posted a bunch of stupid crap, I guess I could see why. But that seems to me like a problem which is easily avoided.
I'm glad to hear this sentiment. I understand where people are coming from regarding Facebook being a shallow or toxic environment. It can definitely be both. And concerns about the company's practices are legitimate as well. But my experience is like yours.
Facebook is also a good way to keep in touch with people, and to participate in online discussions. There are tons of people I've reconnected with, or flat out met, that I would not have without FB.
Facebook is also a good way to keep in touch with people, and to participate in online discussions. There are tons of people I've reconnected with, or flat out met, that I would not have without FB.
My thoughts exactly. It's great for an awareness of all those people I sort of knew or met once who are from a different city.
Facebook's ambient awareness creates enough of a connection that reaching out does not raise the question "who are you again?"
Plus, considering I have connections in a bunch of cities throughout the world, I can always ping them for coffee, a tour, or potentially a free stay.
Facebook's ambient awareness creates enough of a connection that reaching out does not raise the question "who are you again?"
Plus, considering I have connections in a bunch of cities throughout the world, I can always ping them for coffee, a tour, or potentially a free stay.
Maybe is personality thing, most techie, including me, are introvert so the idea of social media is repulsive, even evil. In contrary, to many other people social media is an utility.
Like it or not, The next generation society/culture will be influenced much by social media so I either will embrace it or risk being out of touch with society.
Like it or not, The next generation society/culture will be influenced much by social media so I either will embrace it or risk being out of touch with society.
I think Facebook is a godsend for introverts. Zuckerberg himself actually seems to be one, himself.
As but one example: Facebook allows me to rather passively stay in contact with many people I'd rather not call every week. Post a picture here and there and your mother is far less angry at you for not calling often enough.
As but one example: Facebook allows me to rather passively stay in contact with many people I'd rather not call every week. Post a picture here and there and your mother is far less angry at you for not calling often enough.
Introversion and shyness are two different things.
Facebook was a gift and a curse for introverts.
I signed up for Facebook my freshman year of college, 2005. For someone in a new place who wasn't very good socially, it allowed me to meet all sorts of people at college through chatting online (something I was already very comfortable with thanks to things like AIM and Yahoo messenger). Used to be that you could search for keywords among people at your college, so it was great for meeting people with similar interests. People were much more open online then, be it willingly or just for the fact that having a private account just wasn't an option at the time.
But it also became a crutch, and I (and perhaps many others) started to use it as my primary means of meeting and interacting with people. I never did very well developing real world social skills to meet people in person and build up that confidence that college is the perfect environment to foster.
Now I'm 30, and also recently moved to a new, unfamiliar place. And while I'm "okay" socially, I feel like had I just shut the damn computer off in college and forced myself to build up that social network in real life, I'd be more comfortable and confident in my abilities to meet cool people in person today.
I signed up for Facebook my freshman year of college, 2005. For someone in a new place who wasn't very good socially, it allowed me to meet all sorts of people at college through chatting online (something I was already very comfortable with thanks to things like AIM and Yahoo messenger). Used to be that you could search for keywords among people at your college, so it was great for meeting people with similar interests. People were much more open online then, be it willingly or just for the fact that having a private account just wasn't an option at the time.
But it also became a crutch, and I (and perhaps many others) started to use it as my primary means of meeting and interacting with people. I never did very well developing real world social skills to meet people in person and build up that confidence that college is the perfect environment to foster.
Now I'm 30, and also recently moved to a new, unfamiliar place. And while I'm "okay" socially, I feel like had I just shut the damn computer off in college and forced myself to build up that social network in real life, I'd be more comfortable and confident in my abilities to meet cool people in person today.
I went college in the 80s, so social networking on the net wasn't a thing. (Well, mostly... I did manage to meet one of my best friends in college chatting on the Vax before I ever met her in person.)
I'm definitely an introvert, and not having social networking at that age was probably a good thing for me. I don't feel like I missed anything not having it, but I'm happy to have it now, especially when the people I used to know are scattered very widely geographically.
I'm definitely an introvert, and not having social networking at that age was probably a good thing for me. I don't feel like I missed anything not having it, but I'm happy to have it now, especially when the people I used to know are scattered very widely geographically.
Oh sure. I'm not saying there aren't benefits to having it as an adult, but it was very easy to become overly reliant on the social aspect of the internet like that at a susceptible age, I guess.
I think what compounded my issue in particular is that I grew up in a rural area with my own computer/internet connection ever since I was probably 11 or 12 years old. It wasn't like I could drive 15 miles to meet other kids in person, and I didn't have family that would facilitate such a thing, so outside of school hours and until I got my drivers license the internet was all there was for interacting with others my age.
Then when college came and more in-person opportunities opened up, I more or less was stuck in that same mindset and squandered them.
I think what compounded my issue in particular is that I grew up in a rural area with my own computer/internet connection ever since I was probably 11 or 12 years old. It wasn't like I could drive 15 miles to meet other kids in person, and I didn't have family that would facilitate such a thing, so outside of school hours and until I got my drivers license the internet was all there was for interacting with others my age.
Then when college came and more in-person opportunities opened up, I more or less was stuck in that same mindset and squandered them.
The Trouble with Quitting Smoking is That We Like Smoking.
> Sixty-seven percent of Americans say online communication strengthens their relationships — compared with just 18 percent who say it makes those relationships weaker. If you aren’t on Facebook, you’re missing out on important parts of your friends’ lives — maybe even missing your friends entirely, if they live far from you.
I really don't think what people think Facebook does to their relationships actually maps at all to the actual impact of Facebook on their relationships.
I'm 22 years old. I graduated from college last year. I think in 2008-2012, Facebook helped me keep in touch with friends because all of my friends posted to it regularly, sharing life events and photographs. My News Feed (back when it was chronological by default) helped me keep up to date with the biggest things in all of my friends' lives. It was nice. Notifications told me when somebody interacted my content, and I could take the time to read every comment someone made on one of my photos or posts. There were a few ads in a sidebar, which I could mostly ignore.
Today (well, two months ago, when I deleted my Facebook account), none of this is true, and Facebook is completely useless because of it. My News Feed regularly hides major posts from me, and throws "suggested content" and ads in my face before I can see anything I care about. My friends never post any more, and when they do, I don't see it because it's a) hidden in the News Feed of garbage and b) might not even be in the News Feed of garbage because Facebook's algorithm doesn't think it's "relevant". Notifications are complete spam, telling me that "X posted something!" and never letting me know when people post on my own photos and posts. Because it's hard to tell when people engage, there's no point in engaging -- nobody will read your comments! I studied abroad Fall semester of my senior year, and when I got home I posted a huge photo album of exciting places I visited. For 6 months, I assumed nobody commented or liked anything because I didn't get any notifications. I checked back on it when I first started thinking about deleting my Facebook, and realized there were dozens of likes and a handful of comments per picture. None of which I knew about. All of these people tried to reach out to me via a comment, asking about my trip, and it looked like I ignored all of them callously because Facebook never told me anything.
Facebook was once a useful tool for social interaction, but today I simply keep a list of the two-dozen or so friends I actually want to keep up with. Whenever I have a lazy afternoon or some free time, I consult the list, think about who I've lost touch with, and give them a call. I find that this is a much more rewarding way to interact with the people I love and care about. If you're feeling trapped by Facebook's social graph, just remember that humans interacted for tens of thousands of years without social media, and decades with only phones and letters. You can do the same.
Don't feed Facebook's ad engine at the expense of your own social circle. You can do a lot better.
I really don't think what people think Facebook does to their relationships actually maps at all to the actual impact of Facebook on their relationships.
I'm 22 years old. I graduated from college last year. I think in 2008-2012, Facebook helped me keep in touch with friends because all of my friends posted to it regularly, sharing life events and photographs. My News Feed (back when it was chronological by default) helped me keep up to date with the biggest things in all of my friends' lives. It was nice. Notifications told me when somebody interacted my content, and I could take the time to read every comment someone made on one of my photos or posts. There were a few ads in a sidebar, which I could mostly ignore.
Today (well, two months ago, when I deleted my Facebook account), none of this is true, and Facebook is completely useless because of it. My News Feed regularly hides major posts from me, and throws "suggested content" and ads in my face before I can see anything I care about. My friends never post any more, and when they do, I don't see it because it's a) hidden in the News Feed of garbage and b) might not even be in the News Feed of garbage because Facebook's algorithm doesn't think it's "relevant". Notifications are complete spam, telling me that "X posted something!" and never letting me know when people post on my own photos and posts. Because it's hard to tell when people engage, there's no point in engaging -- nobody will read your comments! I studied abroad Fall semester of my senior year, and when I got home I posted a huge photo album of exciting places I visited. For 6 months, I assumed nobody commented or liked anything because I didn't get any notifications. I checked back on it when I first started thinking about deleting my Facebook, and realized there were dozens of likes and a handful of comments per picture. None of which I knew about. All of these people tried to reach out to me via a comment, asking about my trip, and it looked like I ignored all of them callously because Facebook never told me anything.
Facebook was once a useful tool for social interaction, but today I simply keep a list of the two-dozen or so friends I actually want to keep up with. Whenever I have a lazy afternoon or some free time, I consult the list, think about who I've lost touch with, and give them a call. I find that this is a much more rewarding way to interact with the people I love and care about. If you're feeling trapped by Facebook's social graph, just remember that humans interacted for tens of thousands of years without social media, and decades with only phones and letters. You can do the same.
Don't feed Facebook's ad engine at the expense of your own social circle. You can do a lot better.
> I really don't think what people think Facebook does to their relationships actually maps at all to the actual impact of Facebook on their relationships. ... I'm 22 years old ... today I simply keep a list of the two-dozen or so friends I actually want to keep up with. ...I consult the list ... and give them a call. ... just remember that humans interacted for tens of thousands of years without social media, and decades with only phones and letters. You can do the same.
I'm 40 and I think you're misrepresenting what things used to be like. It used to be very easy to lose touch with people.
People would move, change phone numbers (and not have mobile phones with phone numbers that might remain a constant) and you wouldn't know. Or there'd be acquaintances or even people you'd call friends that you never had their contact details in the first place (it's more of a deal to ask for someone's home number and/or address -- or provide your own -- than to become Facebook friends). You likely kept people's numbers on paper, and if that was misplaced at some point you could easily lose any way to contact people.
I've lost touch with so many people I've known over the years. A number of these being people that had been good friends, who I would have liked to keep in contact with, and others who were less close but who I'd still like to have some sort of contact with.
I'm 40 and I think you're misrepresenting what things used to be like. It used to be very easy to lose touch with people.
People would move, change phone numbers (and not have mobile phones with phone numbers that might remain a constant) and you wouldn't know. Or there'd be acquaintances or even people you'd call friends that you never had their contact details in the first place (it's more of a deal to ask for someone's home number and/or address -- or provide your own -- than to become Facebook friends). You likely kept people's numbers on paper, and if that was misplaced at some point you could easily lose any way to contact people.
I've lost touch with so many people I've known over the years. A number of these being people that had been good friends, who I would have liked to keep in contact with, and others who were less close but who I'd still like to have some sort of contact with.
This is a really good point, thank you for articulating it so well.
Since you're from the generation before my own (close to two generations, I guess), I'm curious for your take on this: do you find Facebook interaction to truly feel authentic (not the right term, but I can' think of a better one)? I find that it is too often a passive exchange: you friend somebody you used to know, you might exchange a few messages if you were very close friends in the past, and then their posts are largely lost in the noise of the Feed. And if they don't post, they might as well not even be your friend.
If you really want to get in touch with those people, today you can always search for their LinkedIn or send them an email or just ask a friend who might still be in touch to share their contact information... right? At least then they'll know you truly care, instead of just clicking a button at the behest of a Facebook suggestion algorithm. Personally I feel like friendships ought to be active relationships, so Facebook "friends" usually aren't anything more than acquaintances. But then again, I'm young, unmarried, and living in a major US city, so my perspective might be a little different from somebody who has a spouse, children, and a mortgage in suburban America :) ... or anybody else in the US, for that matter.
Since you're from the generation before my own (close to two generations, I guess), I'm curious for your take on this: do you find Facebook interaction to truly feel authentic (not the right term, but I can' think of a better one)? I find that it is too often a passive exchange: you friend somebody you used to know, you might exchange a few messages if you were very close friends in the past, and then their posts are largely lost in the noise of the Feed. And if they don't post, they might as well not even be your friend.
If you really want to get in touch with those people, today you can always search for their LinkedIn or send them an email or just ask a friend who might still be in touch to share their contact information... right? At least then they'll know you truly care, instead of just clicking a button at the behest of a Facebook suggestion algorithm. Personally I feel like friendships ought to be active relationships, so Facebook "friends" usually aren't anything more than acquaintances. But then again, I'm young, unmarried, and living in a major US city, so my perspective might be a little different from somebody who has a spouse, children, and a mortgage in suburban America :) ... or anybody else in the US, for that matter.
> I'm curious for your take on this: do you find Facebook interaction to truly feel authentic (not the right term, but I can' think of a better one)?
I think a lot of the interactions are very shallow ones (not saying there's anything inherently wrong with all shallow interactions), and I think it lets people "manage their image" to a large extent. But I do think that even fairly shallow interactions can still be authentic (in the sense that people aren't trying to lie or mislead).
But at the same time, I think similar can be said of a lot of face-to-face interactions as well.
> And if they don't post, they might as well not even be your friend.
There's a spectrum. E.g. there can be people who don't post much, but occasionally post photo albums, which means you can look at their profile and see their photos and at least get a sense of some of the things they've been up.
> If you really want to get in touch with those people, today you can always search for their LinkedIn or send them an email or just ask a friend who might still be in touch to share their contact information... right?
These days you can, but the reality is that the more friction involved the less people are going to do it. Ideally they would do it, but that's not reality. You can argue that if you're not going to make the effort then those people weren't really close enough friends. I don't agree with that -- one, there's differing degrees of friendship and 'lesser' friendships can still have value, and second, people are imperfect just don't always do what's in their best interest (like going to the effort of keeping in contact with good friends).
> Personally I feel like friendships ought to be active relationships, so Facebook "friends" usually aren't anything more than acquaintances.
I've already touched on my view on this, but I don't hold the 'close friendship or nothing' view. I think there can still be value in 'weaker' forms of friendship, right down to being acquaintances. (Obviously though, this is a topic you could get quite deep into... like in how much time is it really worth devoting to different kinds of relationships... and I'm only dealing with the matter in a fairly superficial way, and I know I could be wrong about it).
I think a lot of the interactions are very shallow ones (not saying there's anything inherently wrong with all shallow interactions), and I think it lets people "manage their image" to a large extent. But I do think that even fairly shallow interactions can still be authentic (in the sense that people aren't trying to lie or mislead).
But at the same time, I think similar can be said of a lot of face-to-face interactions as well.
> And if they don't post, they might as well not even be your friend.
There's a spectrum. E.g. there can be people who don't post much, but occasionally post photo albums, which means you can look at their profile and see their photos and at least get a sense of some of the things they've been up.
> If you really want to get in touch with those people, today you can always search for their LinkedIn or send them an email or just ask a friend who might still be in touch to share their contact information... right?
These days you can, but the reality is that the more friction involved the less people are going to do it. Ideally they would do it, but that's not reality. You can argue that if you're not going to make the effort then those people weren't really close enough friends. I don't agree with that -- one, there's differing degrees of friendship and 'lesser' friendships can still have value, and second, people are imperfect just don't always do what's in their best interest (like going to the effort of keeping in contact with good friends).
> Personally I feel like friendships ought to be active relationships, so Facebook "friends" usually aren't anything more than acquaintances.
I've already touched on my view on this, but I don't hold the 'close friendship or nothing' view. I think there can still be value in 'weaker' forms of friendship, right down to being acquaintances. (Obviously though, this is a topic you could get quite deep into... like in how much time is it really worth devoting to different kinds of relationships... and I'm only dealing with the matter in a fairly superficial way, and I know I could be wrong about it).
I agree with everything except that I don't see those broken connections as a loss. Instead I see them as a signal of a relationship that ran its course.
There are plenty of people I have fond memories of and wouldn't mind staying in touch, where that didn't happen even though it wouldn't require more than occasionally sending a message: "Hi! Just thought of you. How are you doing?"
I assume I could track down most of them, but doing so has this strange feeling of a misplaced nostalgia turning into benign voyeurism.
But that's just me. Clearly others feel differently and I see no reason why they shouldn't.
There are plenty of people I have fond memories of and wouldn't mind staying in touch, where that didn't happen even though it wouldn't require more than occasionally sending a message: "Hi! Just thought of you. How are you doing?"
I assume I could track down most of them, but doing so has this strange feeling of a misplaced nostalgia turning into benign voyeurism.
But that's just me. Clearly others feel differently and I see no reason why they shouldn't.
For tens of thousands years, you never moved from small village or tribe you got born at. And you lived with your parents untill you married.
And in recent decades, people were loosing touch very easily.
And in recent decades, people were loosing touch very easily.
The majority of people behave by classical Pavlovian conditioning: they'll get addicted for what gives them immediate pleasure even if it brings them pain, misery and suffering in the long run. That's why we have so much obesity, tobacco, cocaine, opioids and global warming.
Facebook will keep thriving because it is to people what cookies were to Ivan Pavlov's dogs: instant gratification.
Btw, I closed my FB account 4 years ago.
Facebook will keep thriving because it is to people what cookies were to Ivan Pavlov's dogs: instant gratification.
Btw, I closed my FB account 4 years ago.
You obviously don't like Facebook's practices, and neither do I. I wish Facebook would see its users leave in droves, for a privacy-conscious competitor to emerge, for decentralised services to make a comeback, or for regulation to put an end to the dark side of Facebook's business.
Which is why I believe it's not constructive to arrogantly ignore the case this article is making.
The reasons why people may find Facebook useful seem compelling: staying in touch with people you don't know well enough to see or call regularly; staying "on the radar" when, for example, someone from your extended circle of friends goes through their contact list to invite people to their party, etc.
Even if you're right and there are some reasons why these mechanisms actually are detrimental to our social lives, I think the article's arguments are far more intuitive, and closer to what people actually believe.
If you want to convince them to leave Facebook, it would be far more effective to start with an understanding of their point of view, instead of insulting them as animals governed by lesser instincts.
Which is why I believe it's not constructive to arrogantly ignore the case this article is making.
The reasons why people may find Facebook useful seem compelling: staying in touch with people you don't know well enough to see or call regularly; staying "on the radar" when, for example, someone from your extended circle of friends goes through their contact list to invite people to their party, etc.
Even if you're right and there are some reasons why these mechanisms actually are detrimental to our social lives, I think the article's arguments are far more intuitive, and closer to what people actually believe.
If you want to convince them to leave Facebook, it would be far more effective to start with an understanding of their point of view, instead of insulting them as animals governed by lesser instincts.
Forgive me but, because I don't feel the effects of its influence, I do not care that much about its existence. (Remember: I don't use FB). Yes, I do have a moral objection to its practices, but not really an immediate repulse.
As per your last argument: I am not "insulting them". If it were an "insult", it would be for everyone including me. I also go through considerable effort to avoid obesity and would also be addicted to drugs if I tried them.
From a biological perspective we are all animals and as such we are all governed by "instincts", by the biological needs every animal has. Regardless of what they tell you in your biblical studies, human biology is very much like most of other mammals. Their "point of view" is just their biological need for little bursts of dopamine.
As per your last argument: I am not "insulting them". If it were an "insult", it would be for everyone including me. I also go through considerable effort to avoid obesity and would also be addicted to drugs if I tried them.
From a biological perspective we are all animals and as such we are all governed by "instincts", by the biological needs every animal has. Regardless of what they tell you in your biblical studies, human biology is very much like most of other mammals. Their "point of view" is just their biological need for little bursts of dopamine.
I would argue that most users don't know or understand the risks. For most, it's not a fully-informed consent.