Marijuana addiction is real, and rising(denverpost.com)
denverpost.com
Marijuana addiction is real, and rising
https://www.denverpost.com/2018/06/24/marijuana-addiction-rising/
176 comments
I was able to quit after like a 5+ year pretty excessive habit. There were three steps that really helped me. 1) I removed all accessories from my home. I sold/gave away all of my pipes, vapes, e-nails, etc. 2) I started taking nootropics. For me personally, l-theanine, caffeine, and a multivitamin did wonders. Even if it's placebo (which I don't think it is) it really helped mitigate the appetite and fogginess issues for me. 3) Telling my friends I'm not smoking anymore. I established that I'm not smoking. A lot of them initially tried to get me to smoke. It's something they enjoy and I used to enjoy. I had to explain how I felt. The real friends stayed and others flaked out which is totally fine with me.
I do certainly understand the psychological addiction. It takes a toll. I definitely have unhealthy vices I'd like to cut back on, but for me personally, the steps above were enough to take me from waking up in the middle of the night to rip dabs to being totally sober. If you are interested in quitting, I would honestly recommend giving the above steps a try.
I do certainly understand the psychological addiction. It takes a toll. I definitely have unhealthy vices I'd like to cut back on, but for me personally, the steps above were enough to take me from waking up in the middle of the night to rip dabs to being totally sober. If you are interested in quitting, I would honestly recommend giving the above steps a try.
L-theanine and caffeine are considered nootroopics? That's just a cup of tea...
LOL love this comment. It's the 'starter-kit' if you will, recommended on /r/nootropics.
I've been doing it for a while though I'm not sure I really notice anything :/.
I've been doing it for a while though I'm not sure I really notice anything :/.
A lot of people who take L-Theanine with Caffeine are taking it at a higher dosage than what you can from even a few cups of tea.
I’ve read about this combination quite a bit and from my personal experience, you have to get the mixture just right. Even at high doses of caffeine, the right amount of L-Theanine can stop the jitters and give a calm focus. That all said, these dosages are so individualistic that it’s chasing a dragon.
I’ve read about this combination quite a bit and from my personal experience, you have to get the mixture just right. Even at high doses of caffeine, the right amount of L-Theanine can stop the jitters and give a calm focus. That all said, these dosages are so individualistic that it’s chasing a dragon.
I had basically the same experience, though I think I was closer to a gram or so a day, and I never had trouble eating.
But yeah, to the people saying it’s not real, try a few days of insomnia. The feeling of being high is nice, but not terribly addictive or unquittable in itself. But going through the crappy parts of withdrawal, feeling irritable, etc., and on top of that, not being able to sleep? It’s torture.
In the end I couldn’t quit cold turkey. It took me maybe six months of weaning off before I could quit.
Good luck to you.
But yeah, to the people saying it’s not real, try a few days of insomnia. The feeling of being high is nice, but not terribly addictive or unquittable in itself. But going through the crappy parts of withdrawal, feeling irritable, etc., and on top of that, not being able to sleep? It’s torture.
In the end I couldn’t quit cold turkey. It took me maybe six months of weaning off before I could quit.
Good luck to you.
People have insomnia and are irritable without ever smoking. Maybe cannabis just masking your problem and what you feel as "withdrawals" is not caused by cannabis. People often attribute causal relationship if it fits their limited knowledge.
I agree, maybe he should try another strain
You seem awfully defensive and are quick to tell people they are wrong (without citations) when they disparage marijuana.
They can Google that themselves.
The burden of proof, in science, is on who makes the statement. And science is the best set of procedures we know to get to the truth.
So you should at least accept the critic if you can't be bothered to search something that supports your claims.
So you should at least accept the critic if you can't be bothered to search something that supports your claims.
I’ve read a bit about addiction recently, particularly wrt social media’s manipulation of users, but the books I’ve read are full of references to other types of addiction.
One very effective piece of advice appears to be that the addiction and your environment become intertwined. If you’re serious about giving up, then a change of location, job, friends seems to greatly increase your chances of being successful.
It’s not just “don’t hang around pubs”, but also “live in a new apartment where you don’t have that fridge with the shelf you use for alcohol, that comfy chair where you drink at night.” Etc. Your environment becomes full of cues to continue your addiction, because you’ve associated it with the drug (or video games, etc.)
I think it’s easier for some people to be addicted than others, so don’t be too hard on yourself for being in that situation, and keep trying. Get professional help. Sincerely, good luck.
One very effective piece of advice appears to be that the addiction and your environment become intertwined. If you’re serious about giving up, then a change of location, job, friends seems to greatly increase your chances of being successful.
It’s not just “don’t hang around pubs”, but also “live in a new apartment where you don’t have that fridge with the shelf you use for alcohol, that comfy chair where you drink at night.” Etc. Your environment becomes full of cues to continue your addiction, because you’ve associated it with the drug (or video games, etc.)
I think it’s easier for some people to be addicted than others, so don’t be too hard on yourself for being in that situation, and keep trying. Get professional help. Sincerely, good luck.
People don't wake up with nightmares and covered in sweat if they don't have a cheeseburger in the last 24 hours.
I’d beg to differ. Go ask any XXXL wearing guy what happens if they clean up their diets.
Nah. Have you been one of these guys? I'm a XXL cleaning my act up and it feels great the whole time. All you realize is how fucked up you felt BEFORE. I've never known of anyone that went through that brand of withdrawl.
Symptoms of addiction vary. Food addiction is real.
There are phases in my life, when I smoke a lot (but never nearly as much as you) and phases with nothing at all. So I regulary start and stop smoking. The trick for me is, not just not do anything anymore - you rather start doing something different.
Because your mind is used to the reward of the ganja - if you miss that, there needs to be something else. Other pleasant experiences.
Physical activitys help a lot, or starting to travel. But just stopping ... I believe is very hard on your own. In general, when I smoke a lot, I tend to isolate myself more and more. And when I stop, I socialice again. So that works for me (mostly, transition phase can still be hard, though). If you lack people who could help you, think about professional help...
Physical activitys help a lot, or starting to travel. But just stopping ... I believe is very hard on your own. In general, when I smoke a lot, I tend to isolate myself more and more. And when I stop, I socialice again. So that works for me (mostly, transition phase can still be hard, though). If you lack people who could help you, think about professional help...
Sour patch kids are wayyyy more addictive than cheeseburgers and coffee. When you grab 4-5 of them and put them on your gum and suck down their sour goodness before getting that enjoyable gummy chew, it is heaven. I'd eat them till gums bled from all the acid.
weed before bed inhibits rem/dream sleep. when you stop, the brain gives you the saved up rem sleep and vivid dreams.
the rest are classic anxiety symptoms. i wouldn't focus as much on the weed as on what is troubling you underneath.
Seriously, working with a therapist to address the stress, abuse, trauma or whatever else will help quite a bit and the weed use will take care of itself. good luck and trust that your issues are resolvable!!!
the rest are classic anxiety symptoms. i wouldn't focus as much on the weed as on what is troubling you underneath.
Seriously, working with a therapist to address the stress, abuse, trauma or whatever else will help quite a bit and the weed use will take care of itself. good luck and trust that your issues are resolvable!!!
> a society that forces people into self medication of all forms
From personal experience, I believe it's not society forcing anything, but a character flaw that encourages self-gratification in the short term. That flaw can be bypassed, don't give up if you're not happy about it.
From personal experience, I believe it's not society forcing anything, but a character flaw that encourages self-gratification in the short term. That flaw can be bypassed, don't give up if you're not happy about it.
Hmm or perhaps it's because the legal medicines available for chronic illnesses, autoimmune disorders, severe IBS, seizures, and depression/anxiety, etc don't actually work and give you horrendous side effects.
Please stop speaking on behalf of others if you have no clue what you are talking about.
There are people with MS that smoke and are able to walk and move around and not be in constant unbearabke pain. People with chronic back pain do not have to take opioids loaded with toxic nsaids that will destroy their kidneys and get them hooked on narcotics. People and even children with untreatable seizures can live completely oridnary lives. People with depression, PTSD, and anxiety do not have to rely on dangerous antidepressants that can actually increase suicidal thoughts and have resulted in numerous suicides.
People are self medicating because weed is the only real medicine for many of these illnesses.
To call those people cowards is downright awful and completely unwarranted.
Please stop speaking on behalf of others if you have no clue what you are talking about.
There are people with MS that smoke and are able to walk and move around and not be in constant unbearabke pain. People with chronic back pain do not have to take opioids loaded with toxic nsaids that will destroy their kidneys and get them hooked on narcotics. People and even children with untreatable seizures can live completely oridnary lives. People with depression, PTSD, and anxiety do not have to rely on dangerous antidepressants that can actually increase suicidal thoughts and have resulted in numerous suicides.
People are self medicating because weed is the only real medicine for many of these illnesses.
To call those people cowards is downright awful and completely unwarranted.
I was talking specifically about Marijuana addiction, OP's topic.
Were there any distinct early warning signs that could have flagged others to what was going on? I have friends who, post-legalization, are naturally enthusiastic. Want to know the warning signs unique to cannabis addiction I can keep an eye out for.
I heard a rule of thumb along the line of "don't do it three days in a row; if you have trouble stopping on the thirds day, start worrying".
Can't speak for marijuana addiction, but I know an addict or two, and problems seem to develop most prominently if the substance is used heavily and for self-medication.
If you haven't seen this, I recommend watching it as it explains the nightmares.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig
Cannabis is non toxic, so what are you going to detox?
Do you roll with tobacco? People often say they are "addicted" to cannabis, but that is in fact tobacco they use.
You clearly have a problem nevertheless. It looks like your body is not compatible with what you smoke. Have you tried CBT therapy, to find out why do you need this?
Do you roll with tobacco? People often say they are "addicted" to cannabis, but that is in fact tobacco they use.
You clearly have a problem nevertheless. It looks like your body is not compatible with what you smoke. Have you tried CBT therapy, to find out why do you need this?
Have you tried weaning off?
That you experience significant physical withdrawal symptoms from marijuana certainty calls into question the street wisdom that pot isn’t (physically) addicting.
There is one important difference: withdrawal from something like alcohol can actually kill you. Withdrawal from marijuana makes you an irritable asshole for a week or two.
The hardest part is understanding and coping with the issue that drives the user to use marijuana so heavily in the first place. If it can be understood what need the marijuana use is providing for, changing use patterns becomes possible.
The hardest part is understanding and coping with the issue that drives the user to use marijuana so heavily in the first place. If it can be understood what need the marijuana use is providing for, changing use patterns becomes possible.
Marijuana abused to self medicate is frankly cheaper than paying for mental health medication and therapy. It's also fast acting and has only minor negative side effects as opposed to taking several weeks to take effect and for any negative side effects (these can be rather bothersome or bad) to go away. Not to mention that's if that particular medication works for you. Going through several types, change in doses, etc can go on for a year or more easily.
In my experience however, withdrawal only takes a few days, I don't recall being any more irritable than before except that marijuana makes me less prone to irritations to begin with, and the thing that's the worst is the boredom.
It's what do you do with your time? Work can keep you occupied and busy, but at home the activities you are likely going to do you did with marijuana. Video games and television/movies are harder to 'feel' interested in. Eating high is just really enjoyable. And trying to sleep is difficult especially when you know you could just smoke some pot and drift off instead of being too bored and restless to sleep.
In my experience however, withdrawal only takes a few days, I don't recall being any more irritable than before except that marijuana makes me less prone to irritations to begin with, and the thing that's the worst is the boredom.
It's what do you do with your time? Work can keep you occupied and busy, but at home the activities you are likely going to do you did with marijuana. Video games and television/movies are harder to 'feel' interested in. Eating high is just really enjoyable. And trying to sleep is difficult especially when you know you could just smoke some pot and drift off instead of being too bored and restless to sleep.
>Marijuana abused to self medicate is frankly cheaper than paying for mental health medication and therapy.
This implies that self medication has an outcome comparable to paying for mental health medication and therapy.
I would assert that it does not.
This implies that self medication has an outcome comparable to paying for mental health medication and therapy.
I would assert that it does not.
>withdrawal from opiates ... can actually kill you
Opioid withdrawal is actually not fatal at all barring potential dehydration from excessive diarrhea/vomiting.
Opioid withdrawal is actually not fatal at all barring potential dehydration from excessive diarrhea/vomiting.
I edited that out. Apparently most opiate related deaths during withdrawal are due to a person wanting 'one last hit', but choosing a dose that they no longer have the tolerance for.
A potent argument for legalization of opiates, IMO.
Something as simple as concentration percentages on packaging, as we have with booze, and smart usage pamphlets could save a lot of lives.
Something as simple as concentration percentages on packaging, as we have with booze, and smart usage pamphlets could save a lot of lives.
I don't disagree. I think Portugal's experiment has proven that decriminalization is the best path forward pretty conclusively.
This is a genuine question but legalization but still making kind of difficult to get or just all out legalization and selling it wherever?
Legalization along the lines of what we're currently doing with alcohol and tobacco.
That's why we differentiate between addiction and dependence.
Alcohol dependence prevents cold turkey for some people.
Alcohol dependence prevents cold turkey for some people.
What do you think of Cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome?
Pot destroys lives in part by being so apparently benign.
Whatever problems drive a person to use pot as a crutch are the source issue. Pot abuse itself (or any maladaptive behavior) is best thought of as a symptom, not a cause.
This just isn't true.
Please stop denying that cannabis itself cannot ever be a cause of severe harm.
I strongly support legalisation, but for that to happen we must accept that some cannabis users are going to be caused harm.
Please stop denying that cannabis itself cannot ever be a cause of severe harm.
I strongly support legalisation, but for that to happen we must accept that some cannabis users are going to be caused harm.
I did not claim that cannabis doesn't have the ability to cause harm, nor would I. My point is only that drug abuse should be taken as a symptom of a deeper cause.
If someone is self medicating with pot, and pot is making their lives worse (which is the case for some users), the pot is a problem in and of itself.
Drug culture itself is riddled with such booby traps. Fallaious street wisdom backed by egos and peer pressure are powerful tools to indoctrinate a child into an unexpected lifetime of addiction to substances such as pot.
Drug culture itself is riddled with such booby traps. Fallaious street wisdom backed by egos and peer pressure are powerful tools to indoctrinate a child into an unexpected lifetime of addiction to substances such as pot.
>Fallaious street wisdom backed by egos and peer pressure
That's what I am trying to get at- problems stem from earlier sources. Whether someone eventually gets hooked on something is a consequence of earlier failure. Whatever drug/habit is ultimately picked up in the aftermath is a genuine negative, which will have its own particulars. But it is not the initial causative agent. This is an important distinction to make, because otherwise we're just rearranging deck chairs instead of managing the fundamental issue.
To expand context, when considering appropriate drug policy at a governmental level I think Portugal's experience is important to study:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic...
That's what I am trying to get at- problems stem from earlier sources. Whether someone eventually gets hooked on something is a consequence of earlier failure. Whatever drug/habit is ultimately picked up in the aftermath is a genuine negative, which will have its own particulars. But it is not the initial causative agent. This is an important distinction to make, because otherwise we're just rearranging deck chairs instead of managing the fundamental issue.
To expand context, when considering appropriate drug policy at a governmental level I think Portugal's experience is important to study:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radic...
No, drug use isn’t consistently picked up in the aftermath of disaster. It’s often near the beginning, and lubricates destructive behavior, even pot.
Pot absolutely catalyzes issues in people’s lives. Many would be far better off not using it at all.
Pot absolutely catalyzes issues in people’s lives. Many would be far better off not using it at all.
>It’s often near the beginning, and lubricates destructive behavior, even pot
I think we are talking past each other. I fully agree that many would be better off never using anything at all.
My point is that by the time someone gets to the point where drugs/gambling/addiction can act as a destructive catalyst, they're already well on their way to a negative future due to earlier causes.
I think we are talking past each other. I fully agree that many would be better off never using anything at all.
My point is that by the time someone gets to the point where drugs/gambling/addiction can act as a destructive catalyst, they're already well on their way to a negative future due to earlier causes.
> My point is that by the time someone gets to the point where drugs/gambling/addiction can act as a destructive catalyst, they're already well on their way to a negative future due to earlier causes.
Do you have anything at all to support this?
Do you have anything at all to support this?
Sure. Start here and follow the sources. Portugal's results from their drug law shift in particular are strong evidence.
(the first bit of the linked article is, well, clearly written for the huff post. But the meat of it well worth the read)
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6506936
(the first bit of the linked article is, well, clearly written for the huff post. But the meat of it well worth the read)
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6506936
A child with an undeveloped mind gets stoned and is profoundly impacted by it. The act of getting into pot in the first place is the divergent event that led to the deteriorated life path in some cases. The pot use itself is a root cause for the child, and they would have been better off never having got into it at all.
As for destructive catalysts, no, not all people are well on their way to a negative future when they take up such habits. The drugs/gambling etc are the destructive behaviors that should be avoided altogether or stopped as a priority.
Considering the well documented effects of high grade pot, it’s fairly easy to see that a normal child can be profoundly impacted by pot. Their entire lives get off track after getting into weed. So, no, not all people that mess up their lives on pot were well on their way to a negative future.
As for destructive catalysts, no, not all people are well on their way to a negative future when they take up such habits. The drugs/gambling etc are the destructive behaviors that should be avoided altogether or stopped as a priority.
Considering the well documented effects of high grade pot, it’s fairly easy to see that a normal child can be profoundly impacted by pot. Their entire lives get off track after getting into weed. So, no, not all people that mess up their lives on pot were well on their way to a negative future.
Sure, but nearly anything that causes a chemical change can be physically addicting right? Once your brain starts equalizing for whatever imbalances are being created.
By that definition, hydration is addiction.
Refined carbohydrates (sugar, flour) are definitely addictive. If you have the normal modern diet full of sugar and flour and you quit them cold turkey, you will be sick and miserable for a few days, while your body adjusts. And if you quit carbs enough to go into ketosis, and then "cheat", you'll be right back on the insulin-spike bandwagon. (This is not to be construed as an argument in favor of keto diets, or against carbs!) And unlike water, your body does not need refined sugar or grains. You can live just fine on meats and vegetables.
Refined carbohydrates (sugar, flour) are definitely addictive. If you have the normal modern diet full of sugar and flour and you quit them cold turkey, you will be sick and miserable for a few days, while your body adjusts. And if you quit carbs enough to go into ketosis, and then "cheat", you'll be right back on the insulin-spike bandwagon. (This is not to be construed as an argument in favor of keto diets, or against carbs!) And unlike water, your body does not need refined sugar or grains. You can live just fine on meats and vegetables.
> certainty calls into question the street wisdom that pot isn’t (physically) addicting.
This isn't "street wisdom"; there's a massive body of clinical research that's gone into marijuana and investigating its effects on the body and brain.
Marijuana is one of the most-studied drugs in existence, far more so than most prescription medication on the market.
This isn't "street wisdom"; there's a massive body of clinical research that's gone into marijuana and investigating its effects on the body and brain.
Marijuana is one of the most-studied drugs in existence, far more so than most prescription medication on the market.
Actually, the notion that pot isn’t addictive is the street wisdom, or was when I was growing up. This is in contradiction to the reality.
> Actually, the notion that pot isn’t addictive is the street wisdom, or was when I was growing up. This is in contradiction to the reality.
No, it's not in contradiction to reality; it's the results of clinical research. To the extent that "addiction" is a relevant term in colloquial use (it's neither a DSM-IV diagnostic criterion nor a formal pharmacological term), marijuana is not known to induce practically significant symptoms of physical dependence.
No, it's not in contradiction to reality; it's the results of clinical research. To the extent that "addiction" is a relevant term in colloquial use (it's neither a DSM-IV diagnostic criterion nor a formal pharmacological term), marijuana is not known to induce practically significant symptoms of physical dependence.
Copy that. Getting into semantics, from the descriptions here, one could describe the withdrawal symptoms to be physically/practically significant for some cowards.
Such research is probably improperly generalized or otherwise misinterpreted. I’ve known lots of people who smoked too much weed, and “withdrawal” symptoms were pretty consistent among people who really smoked to excess (multiple grams per day). Judging from this and similar threads, many people will attest to the same. It’s not plausible to me that this is an illusion.
> Such research is probably improperly generalized or otherwise misinterpreted.
A great deal of it is, and some of it has more fundamental problems. I forget his name -- this was quite a while ago -- but there was one scientist in particular who had published a wealth of anti-cannabis studies, most of which were obviously flawed or biased in some way. Furthermore, at the time he was one of the only people allowed to do the research, since access to "official" MJ was heavily restricted, and the supply he used was a small batch of plants grown specifically for research, hardly representative of real-world crops. Most of his work was federally funded, and this was during the Bush II era, so you can imagine the pressure to back up the government's anti-MJ stance. Wish I could remember more details, this was a while ago!
When I first learned about this, it was really an eye-opener on how the funding -> research -> policy treadmill works when it is successfully subverted by powerful interests. Fortunately it's hard to keep the process going forever. Science works in the long run, but sometimes it moves too slowly for people facing real injustice.
A great deal of it is, and some of it has more fundamental problems. I forget his name -- this was quite a while ago -- but there was one scientist in particular who had published a wealth of anti-cannabis studies, most of which were obviously flawed or biased in some way. Furthermore, at the time he was one of the only people allowed to do the research, since access to "official" MJ was heavily restricted, and the supply he used was a small batch of plants grown specifically for research, hardly representative of real-world crops. Most of his work was federally funded, and this was during the Bush II era, so you can imagine the pressure to back up the government's anti-MJ stance. Wish I could remember more details, this was a while ago!
When I first learned about this, it was really an eye-opener on how the funding -> research -> policy treadmill works when it is successfully subverted by powerful interests. Fortunately it's hard to keep the process going forever. Science works in the long run, but sometimes it moves too slowly for people facing real injustice.
Or it's a combination of mental addiction and the placebo effect. The ritual has become such an important part of their life, that when they remove it their anxiety causes a physical reaction based on their concept of withdrawl.
I read that the use of marijuana actually inhibits dreams, and that people who quit temporarily experience intense dreams.
This is called REM rebound. The reason is that in this case the psychoactive drugs in cannabis act as sedatives. Similar to alcohol and other depressants, this makes it easier to fall asleep, but harder to enter the "deeper" stages of sleep like REM. So when you quit ingesting cannabis, your body tries to make up for your ongoing REM sleep deficit, and you have more/stronger dreams as a result
This what is happening to the top level commenter. I don't know if the nightmares in particular are a result of REM rebound, but it could be that the person is simply prone to nightmares, and part of their addiction could be self-medication for their innately nightmarish dreams.
This what is happening to the top level commenter. I don't know if the nightmares in particular are a result of REM rebound, but it could be that the person is simply prone to nightmares, and part of their addiction could be self-medication for their innately nightmarish dreams.
Is there research for that?
I would imagine that people report fewer dreams due to cannabinoids' memory effects, rather than an impact on REM sleep. Failing to remember dreams does not mean an absence of them.
An increase in nightmares could easily be due to increased stress/amygdala function depressed by cannabinoids.
I would imagine that people report fewer dreams due to cannabinoids' memory effects, rather than an impact on REM sleep. Failing to remember dreams does not mean an absence of them.
An increase in nightmares could easily be due to increased stress/amygdala function depressed by cannabinoids.
There is research[1] and I have already established that the nightmares come from an unrelated source such as PTSD.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18313952
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18313952
The latter, many people with PTSD suffer basically flashback dreams. So they may smoke as a self medication, but the fear of an REM rebound causes physical symptoms when they don't smoke.
PTSD weed smoker here. Not the case whatsoever. If I don't smoke I don't suddenly have intense nightmares about my near death experience nor do I have a physical impetus to keep smoking. If I run out of weed I don't slip into the worst stages of PTSD.
It seems that there ate a ton of people speaking on behalf of both actual smokers and people with chronic illnesses and disorders.
If you don't have PTSD, you can't comprehend it, nor should you try to.
Top commenters issue is that they lack self control. Their "addiction" to weed is self imposed and akin to overeating or being addicted to masturbation.
When you stop smoking, you don't have withdrawals. You simply begin experiencing the chronic illnesses that you have been self medicating against.
I'd also like to add that for mental issues like anxiety, PTSD, and depression, weed acts like a mild antidepressant that is extremely manageable compared to the prescription options that typically make people even more unstable. Every antidepressant in America comes with a warning that it can increase suicidal tendencies, and I can tell you from experience that it is very true.
Those kinds of "medicines" work by making you numb, not treating the actual problems. You don't feel normal at all; you don't care about anything, become very reckless and unstable, and many kids end up killing themselves because of this mental state when they had taken the medicine to quell suicidal thoughts in the first place.
It seems that there ate a ton of people speaking on behalf of both actual smokers and people with chronic illnesses and disorders.
If you don't have PTSD, you can't comprehend it, nor should you try to.
Top commenters issue is that they lack self control. Their "addiction" to weed is self imposed and akin to overeating or being addicted to masturbation.
When you stop smoking, you don't have withdrawals. You simply begin experiencing the chronic illnesses that you have been self medicating against.
I'd also like to add that for mental issues like anxiety, PTSD, and depression, weed acts like a mild antidepressant that is extremely manageable compared to the prescription options that typically make people even more unstable. Every antidepressant in America comes with a warning that it can increase suicidal tendencies, and I can tell you from experience that it is very true.
Those kinds of "medicines" work by making you numb, not treating the actual problems. You don't feel normal at all; you don't care about anything, become very reckless and unstable, and many kids end up killing themselves because of this mental state when they had taken the medicine to quell suicidal thoughts in the first place.
First and foremost, you are one person. Your experience does not represent the full range of experience, nor do anecdotes from people you've met.
Next, PTSD can cause flashbacks in several forms. Many people with the illness never have harmful flashback dreams.
I said that this is causing a mental addiction. So on top of everything effecting people differently, these require particular forms of thinking. If you don't know that marijuana can suppress dreams or use it for that purpose, you won't develop this addiction.
A mental addiction isn't a "lack of self control" or "self imposed" as you say. It works by a similar means to the placebo effect, where your belief that something has an effect leads to the effect.
>It seems that there ate a ton of people speaking on behalf of both actual smokers and people with chronic illnesses and disorders.If you don't have PTSD, you can't comprehend it, nor should you try to.
Seems to me that you shouldn't assume what diseases other people have suffered from. As you aren't the only one with first hand experience.
>Those kinds of "medicines" work by making you numb, not treating the actual problems
Though it's true that the prescribed alternatives are not cures, neither is marijuana. Both help you manage symptoms, but can lead to other problems. Therapy has been the only thing shown to be effective as a cure.
Next, PTSD can cause flashbacks in several forms. Many people with the illness never have harmful flashback dreams.
I said that this is causing a mental addiction. So on top of everything effecting people differently, these require particular forms of thinking. If you don't know that marijuana can suppress dreams or use it for that purpose, you won't develop this addiction.
A mental addiction isn't a "lack of self control" or "self imposed" as you say. It works by a similar means to the placebo effect, where your belief that something has an effect leads to the effect.
>It seems that there ate a ton of people speaking on behalf of both actual smokers and people with chronic illnesses and disorders.If you don't have PTSD, you can't comprehend it, nor should you try to.
Seems to me that you shouldn't assume what diseases other people have suffered from. As you aren't the only one with first hand experience.
>Those kinds of "medicines" work by making you numb, not treating the actual problems
Though it's true that the prescribed alternatives are not cures, neither is marijuana. Both help you manage symptoms, but can lead to other problems. Therapy has been the only thing shown to be effective as a cure.
Yes. This isn't physical addiction. It can cause a mental addiction if you use it for that purpose, and the anxiety over going without can keep you awake. You see it in people with PTSD.
edit Curious why people are objecting to this as I have personal experience in the area. Vivid dreams are common any time you go without dreaming for a while, it's not a sign of a physical addiction.
edit Curious why people are objecting to this as I have personal experience in the area. Vivid dreams are common any time you go without dreaming for a while, it's not a sign of a physical addiction.
Because you're pushing a distinction (physical vs psychological addiction) that is mostly irrelevant but also untrue.
There are many drugs that aren't strongly physically addictive, but most people recognise that the misuse of those drugs can cause severe harm. Cannabis should be in this category.
There are many drugs that aren't strongly physically addictive, but most people recognise that the misuse of those drugs can cause severe harm. Cannabis should be in this category.
Misuse of Tylenol (acetaminophen) can cause severe harm. Doesn't mean it's addictive.
This is BS. Define the "severe harm" or stop making this argument.
There are a lot of people here speaking on behalf of smokers and people with chronic illnesses and disorders.
I happen to fall in both categories and self medicate.
I can and do stop smoking so the time. It is not physically addictive, and you can become mentally addicted to anything that gives you a dopamine release, like eating junk food.
I have never had "withdrawals," nor do I recognize weed "addiction" as anything other than excess, overindulgence, and a lack of self control.
People claiming that they are addicted to weed are simply looking to blame a bad habit for their lack of self control.
The only severe harm you can get from smoking too much weed is to your wallet.
There are a lot of people here speaking on behalf of smokers and people with chronic illnesses and disorders.
I happen to fall in both categories and self medicate.
I can and do stop smoking so the time. It is not physically addictive, and you can become mentally addicted to anything that gives you a dopamine release, like eating junk food.
I have never had "withdrawals," nor do I recognize weed "addiction" as anything other than excess, overindulgence, and a lack of self control.
People claiming that they are addicted to weed are simply looking to blame a bad habit for their lack of self control.
The only severe harm you can get from smoking too much weed is to your wallet.
At no point do I suggest a mental addiction is less harmful, just that a distinction exists.
With a physical addiction, the substance itself becomes necessary to the body. A psychological addiction involves becoming reliant on a perceived effect of some other stimulus. If you give a brain dead person a physically addictive substance and then stop, they will suffer withdrawals while they can't develop a psychological addiction as there is no perception.
Generally, the two will develop together and both are harmful.
With a physical addiction, the substance itself becomes necessary to the body. A psychological addiction involves becoming reliant on a perceived effect of some other stimulus. If you give a brain dead person a physically addictive substance and then stop, they will suffer withdrawals while they can't develop a psychological addiction as there is no perception.
Generally, the two will develop together and both are harmful.
This isn’t the reality for all. Not everyone remains productive like Seth Rogen when perpetually stoned.
Many people waste away their lives stoned and the problem seems to be getting worse while the quality of pot skyrockets to all time highs.
Many people waste away their lives stoned and the problem seems to be getting worse while the quality of pot skyrockets to all time highs.
Many people waste their lives away with a wide variety of things, that doesn't make them physically addictive. Mentally addictive yes, but that's a separate thing.
The country is going through a mental health problem, there are numerous signs of this. Marijuana is one of the poor ways that people deal with this, but it's not the cause of the issue.
The country is going through a mental health problem, there are numerous signs of this. Marijuana is one of the poor ways that people deal with this, but it's not the cause of the issue.
I bet with further research done properly (which will take decades starting now) we will find that pot use from an early age is not only correlated to diminished quality of life for some, but is a contributing underlying factor enough to tip scales for some.
Michael Phelps can down McDonald’s but some are better off limiting their fast food intake. Everyone reacts differently to different arrangements of chemicals in different quantities.
Michael Phelps can down McDonald’s but some are better off limiting their fast food intake. Everyone reacts differently to different arrangements of chemicals in different quantities.
None of this makes it physically addictive, which is the only issue I'm making. Mental addiction can also be terrible, and can cause the issues described.
WHy are you pushing the physical addiction point? Cocaine isn't physically addictive. Cocaine can be terribly harmful.
How is weed harmful? Any mental and physical effects subside with cessation of use.
My buddy just quit for a month. The only issues he had were having to deal with his terrible IBS without what had effectively become medicine for him.
I smoke for similar reasons and for anti anxiety. It is FAR less harmful than brain melting benzos like xanax and Klonopin.
Wanna talk about harm? When I was prescribed Klonopin, I essentially blacked out for a month of my life. I didn't "wake up" from that until I missed a dose and promptly tossed it in the trash.
If you are so concerned with some nitpicky level of subjective "harm," maybe we should talk about all the harm prescription drugs can cause. When you have chronic illnesses and the medicine only makes you worse, self medication becomes an enticing prospect.
What about kids with severe seizures, etc? We've seen some of the most conservative states allow cbd oil because it is the only thing that works.
If you have an open mind, you should look into the endocannabinoid system that resides in every human being. We have a massive network of receptors that rely on cannabinoids to mediate chronic illnesses and reduce inflammation in our bodies.
It is thought that we have this system and relationship with cannabinoids because humans have been cultivating and consuming marijuana for thousands of years. Weed and humans have developed alongside each other over time in a kind of symbiotic relationship. To simply pretend that weed is some sort of harmful narcotic is so far from the truth.
Excess is the issue. A person who let's weed run their life is no different than someone that overeats or procrastinates constantly. If you have bad habits and no self control you can take anything to excess.
My buddy just quit for a month. The only issues he had were having to deal with his terrible IBS without what had effectively become medicine for him.
I smoke for similar reasons and for anti anxiety. It is FAR less harmful than brain melting benzos like xanax and Klonopin.
Wanna talk about harm? When I was prescribed Klonopin, I essentially blacked out for a month of my life. I didn't "wake up" from that until I missed a dose and promptly tossed it in the trash.
If you are so concerned with some nitpicky level of subjective "harm," maybe we should talk about all the harm prescription drugs can cause. When you have chronic illnesses and the medicine only makes you worse, self medication becomes an enticing prospect.
What about kids with severe seizures, etc? We've seen some of the most conservative states allow cbd oil because it is the only thing that works.
If you have an open mind, you should look into the endocannabinoid system that resides in every human being. We have a massive network of receptors that rely on cannabinoids to mediate chronic illnesses and reduce inflammation in our bodies.
It is thought that we have this system and relationship with cannabinoids because humans have been cultivating and consuming marijuana for thousands of years. Weed and humans have developed alongside each other over time in a kind of symbiotic relationship. To simply pretend that weed is some sort of harmful narcotic is so far from the truth.
Excess is the issue. A person who let's weed run their life is no different than someone that overeats or procrastinates constantly. If you have bad habits and no self control you can take anything to excess.
I was replying to this post
>That you experience significant physical withdrawal symptoms from marijuana certainty calls into question the street wisdom that pot isn’t (physically) addicting.
>That you experience significant physical withdrawal symptoms from marijuana certainty calls into question the street wisdom that pot isn’t (physically) addicting.
Well, the pot physical addiction debate is where we started.
If people experience significant physical withdrawal symptoms from cessation of pot use (which seems to be the case for some), then for those people, it absolutely is physically addicting.
If people experience significant physical withdrawal symptoms from cessation of pot use (which seems to be the case for some), then for those people, it absolutely is physically addicting.
It still isn't physically addicting as at no point does the body need it to function. Physical withdrawal symptoms don't change that, and it's unlikely that science will find new evidence changing this position.
Addiction and dependence are different.
It is not, "only" psychological addictive. But since our mind controls our body, the symptoms can be indeed severe, if the use, or abuse, like in this case, is extreme.
Smoking 3g a day is the rough equivavlent of constantly drinking wodka instead of water.
Pot does produce physical changes in the brain, though. Heavy pot usage can dramatically increase the amount of anandamide receptors in the brain, which regulate hunger, motivation, pleasure and mood among other things. So quitting and having a neurotransmitter deficit until the brain returns to homeostasis causes hormonal and physical effects on the body... How is that “only” psychological?
Because organs won't start shutting down without it.
Cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome seems to not be that well known. CHS appears to suggest that for certain segments of the population there is a physical component to marijuana addiction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_hyperemesis_syndro...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_hyperemesis_syndro...
>Within 24 hours without weed I become an intolerable asshole
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest the underlying problem might not be the weed.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest the underlying problem might not be the weed.
If the implication here is that the intolerable asshole part is a personality problem, that doesn't seem like a fair accusation. Caffeine and sugar withdrawal cause much the same symptoms. It is hard to be nice when you have a headache and feel crappy.
It might be, though. I have heard this exact thing from a friend about her husband. She may divorce him over it. It is very specifically when he is out. It is worth looking into the effects of prolonged drug use (even mj) on the brain and personality.
"24 hours without antipsychotics and I become schizophrenic".
"I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest the underlying problem might not be the antipsychotics".
See the problem with your phrasing?
Lots of people deal with anxiety, anger management, and other relatively mild psychological malfunctions by self-medicating (or prescription medicating) with THC. That's why it gets prescribed as medication for these things. THC is effective in many cases, with very few side effects, relative to other medications.
I have friends who are "marijuana addicts", who are pretty horrible to be around when they're not stoned, but fine when they are. They can be social and do their jobs. So, um, what's wrong with that? I am quite happy for them.
edit: I should add that there's this Puritan tendency to treat things like anger management issues as a moral failing rather than a medical problem. So medicating rather than moralizing is seen as a character flaw. Personally, I deal with ADD. I've been formally diagnosed, and it's measurable and measured. I don't medicate for it and I pay a price for that - it puts limits on my activities and decisions, to shield my life from the problems ADD can cause. I don't medicate because the medication has caused side effects that were worse than the condition, for me. If I thought THC would help me deal with my ADD (it doesn't), I'd be out fighting for a prescription.
"I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest the underlying problem might not be the antipsychotics".
See the problem with your phrasing?
Lots of people deal with anxiety, anger management, and other relatively mild psychological malfunctions by self-medicating (or prescription medicating) with THC. That's why it gets prescribed as medication for these things. THC is effective in many cases, with very few side effects, relative to other medications.
I have friends who are "marijuana addicts", who are pretty horrible to be around when they're not stoned, but fine when they are. They can be social and do their jobs. So, um, what's wrong with that? I am quite happy for them.
edit: I should add that there's this Puritan tendency to treat things like anger management issues as a moral failing rather than a medical problem. So medicating rather than moralizing is seen as a character flaw. Personally, I deal with ADD. I've been formally diagnosed, and it's measurable and measured. I don't medicate for it and I pay a price for that - it puts limits on my activities and decisions, to shield my life from the problems ADD can cause. I don't medicate because the medication has caused side effects that were worse than the condition, for me. If I thought THC would help me deal with my ADD (it doesn't), I'd be out fighting for a prescription.
“I have friends who are "marijuana addicts", who are pretty horrible to be around when they're not stoned, but fine when they are.”
Change the word “stoned” to “have-had-coffee-at-least-in-the-morning” and you would be describing a large percentage of the population. It’s interesting which addictions are stigmatized and which ones are normalized.
Oh, exactly. I mean, we make jokes about how bad we are without coffee and no one says boo about how coffee should be banned.
All addiction issues are just the surface of an underlying problem.
It's hard for me to relate to this. I smoke daily, and probably what most would consider a lot. I however also travel for work and or other reasons and often go days or a week without smoking. It has no noticeable effect on me.
It could be because I'm extremely active and fit. I workout basically 7 days a week, mostly because I do a lot of intense stuff 'for fun' (aka, play hockey 3-4 days a week, etc).
I'm not saying it's not true, just pointing out this could be related to things beyond just pot. Aka, inactivity, perhaps an already down mental state, etc etc.
I also take a shit-ton of vitamins and sups, I'm about to turn 51 and I train hard and play hard because I'm often skating against high-level 18-20 year old's etc, so I'm quite driven to stay at the top of my game. Possible some of the vits/sups I take are offsetting whatever the pot is doing to others.
Diet, exercise, sleep - so many factors goes into feeling well. Addiction though, man that's a lot more extreme than I would label my desire for pot. I mean I certainly enjoy it and even sometimes wish I had some on a trip, but it's a passing though more than anything.
Update: one point I should note, I only smoke Sativa's, or sativa heavy hybrids. Not sure if that's a factor but thought I was worth noting.
It could be because I'm extremely active and fit. I workout basically 7 days a week, mostly because I do a lot of intense stuff 'for fun' (aka, play hockey 3-4 days a week, etc).
I'm not saying it's not true, just pointing out this could be related to things beyond just pot. Aka, inactivity, perhaps an already down mental state, etc etc.
I also take a shit-ton of vitamins and sups, I'm about to turn 51 and I train hard and play hard because I'm often skating against high-level 18-20 year old's etc, so I'm quite driven to stay at the top of my game. Possible some of the vits/sups I take are offsetting whatever the pot is doing to others.
Diet, exercise, sleep - so many factors goes into feeling well. Addiction though, man that's a lot more extreme than I would label my desire for pot. I mean I certainly enjoy it and even sometimes wish I had some on a trip, but it's a passing though more than anything.
Update: one point I should note, I only smoke Sativa's, or sativa heavy hybrids. Not sure if that's a factor but thought I was worth noting.
The article says that this sort of heavy use can be measured in oz/wk, with 1-2 oz/wk being quite a lot. I am the heaviest cannabis consumer of my peers, and I barely consume a quarter oz/wk. It sounds like addicts are much heavier users!
On the other hand, tobacco smokers can be addicts at 1-2 cigs/day, but not necessarily chain-smoking 1-2 pks/day like the most-addicted smokers. Perhaps there's a continuum.
On the other hand, tobacco smokers can be addicts at 1-2 cigs/day, but not necessarily chain-smoking 1-2 pks/day like the most-addicted smokers. Perhaps there's a continuum.
Whoa, I’m a heavy user with a high tolerance but an ounce would take more like a month to get through, not a week. 2 oz a week is just nuts.
[deleted]
I know several people who are consuming mind boggling amounts like this. But I think at this point using the actual plant material is impractical as what they are doing is vaporizing extracted oil, aka "dabs".
I don't smoke anymore for practical reasons, but I have done one of these dabs in the past and it essentially incapacitated me to the point where I felt extremely uncomfortable and had to remain stationary for at least an hour unable to do anything at all.
My extreme THC consuming friends are doing something like 6-7 of these per evening and functioning fairly normally. This is what's mind boggling to me.
I don't smoke anymore for practical reasons, but I have done one of these dabs in the past and it essentially incapacitated me to the point where I felt extremely uncomfortable and had to remain stationary for at least an hour unable to do anything at all.
My extreme THC consuming friends are doing something like 6-7 of these per evening and functioning fairly normally. This is what's mind boggling to me.
This is literally the most pseudoscience I've seen at the top of a HN post.
Just wanted to chime in that I’m the same way. Smoke every night when at home, but I’ve just been out of the country for work for a week and actually didn’t even think about it once until reading this thread.
"I only smoke Sativa"
Devinitively a factor in my experience. Sativa usually makes more active, indica more stoned...
But it is also about personality.
I could not smoke everyday. There are times when I do, but that only works to a certain point and then I have to stop, or I would not do anything at all anymore.
Persons close to me actually smoked themself to death this way.
My main takeaway is, if my mind is thinking a lot about ganja, then it is too much. I like to do things. And quite some activitys can be improved being high, but it should be about the activitys, not the smoke. When the focus goes to smoking for the sake of smoking ... then it is wrong in my experience. But you seem to be doing it the right way...
Devinitively a factor in my experience. Sativa usually makes more active, indica more stoned...
But it is also about personality.
I could not smoke everyday. There are times when I do, but that only works to a certain point and then I have to stop, or I would not do anything at all anymore.
Persons close to me actually smoked themself to death this way.
My main takeaway is, if my mind is thinking a lot about ganja, then it is too much. I like to do things. And quite some activitys can be improved being high, but it should be about the activitys, not the smoke. When the focus goes to smoking for the sake of smoking ... then it is wrong in my experience. But you seem to be doing it the right way...
How long have you been smoking daily? From the article:
> Unlike with opioids and stimulants, marijuana dependence tends to develop slowly: Months or years may pass before symptoms begin to affect a dependent user’s life.
The case is similar with alcohol dependence: it can take quite a long time.
> Unlike with opioids and stimulants, marijuana dependence tends to develop slowly: Months or years may pass before symptoms begin to affect a dependent user’s life.
The case is similar with alcohol dependence: it can take quite a long time.
I suspect once a day use isn't enough to cause serious dependency (for most people), so long as it isn't being used for self medication. I suspect physical dependency probably results from use as a teenager (when the brain is changing rapidly) or from near constant use, such that your body/brain begins to treat the chemical changes as a baseline and adjust for them.
[deleted]
I've been smoking daily, with the exception of travel breaks, since my early 20's and I'm about to turn 51.
It's also worth noting that this "Addiction" that takes so long to develop goes away in about 1-2 weeks.
Most addictions “go away” in about 1-2 weeks. Even opiate addiction goes away after a max of a week, it’s the psychological effects that last unlike say benzodiazepine which has a recovery time measured in years.
So I originally wrote this post to respond to the user "havesmoked" who posted a similar comment in response to you to what I'm about to share. They deleted their post, but I figured I'd still post mine.
----
I also don't know why I'm posting this beyond sharing my anecdotal experience, lol.
I'm pretty much like you on this one. I've been smoking pot for about ten years now (I'm 31), and half of that I'd say has been fairly heavy usage, and for the last 2-3 years a single week for me has, on average, seen me consume: 1 eighth of flower, 50-100MG of edibles depending on weekend activities, and most of a .5G vape cartridge. That seems like a fucking outrageous amount of pot, but I've shown continuous growth professionally (worked all the way up to my current "Director" position) and I've never had a problem traveling and suddenly spending a week or two cold turkey.
Like you, I've always been cognizant of the fact that I could end up relying on it as a crutch, and have been wary of the fact that there's not much quality scientific data around marijuana to make me feel comfortable continuing this way. My wife and I are also at a point in our lives now where we'd like to start having children. We met with a doctor last week to discuss a few things, and the "marijuana lowers your sperm count" conversation that I was anticipating did certainly come up. I've known this time has been coming for a while and had no problem immediately cutting back as of last Thursday. It's been just over a week now of reducing my intake to just 4-5 hits per evening, late at night and shortly before bed so I don't get the urge to just keep smoking after I've started.
It's been incredibly easy to kick, I'm gonna save a boatload of cash, and I don't spend the day craving it. I appreciate the clearer head that I have, and the increased productivity I feel. But that doesn't mean it's easy for everyone, as I'm sure people use this as a crutch for a variety of reasons.
Edit: I think one of the things that has helped me keep my consumption reduced compared to other people in this thread (someone mentioning nearly an eight per day) has been my refusal to do dabs. Those are incredibly more potent and can really quickly kick your tolerance up a notch. I did one just once and it hit me so hard I immediately fell back and had to lean in place against a wall without moving for 20 minutes. I don't know how people can do that shit regularly.
----
I also don't know why I'm posting this beyond sharing my anecdotal experience, lol.
I'm pretty much like you on this one. I've been smoking pot for about ten years now (I'm 31), and half of that I'd say has been fairly heavy usage, and for the last 2-3 years a single week for me has, on average, seen me consume: 1 eighth of flower, 50-100MG of edibles depending on weekend activities, and most of a .5G vape cartridge. That seems like a fucking outrageous amount of pot, but I've shown continuous growth professionally (worked all the way up to my current "Director" position) and I've never had a problem traveling and suddenly spending a week or two cold turkey.
Like you, I've always been cognizant of the fact that I could end up relying on it as a crutch, and have been wary of the fact that there's not much quality scientific data around marijuana to make me feel comfortable continuing this way. My wife and I are also at a point in our lives now where we'd like to start having children. We met with a doctor last week to discuss a few things, and the "marijuana lowers your sperm count" conversation that I was anticipating did certainly come up. I've known this time has been coming for a while and had no problem immediately cutting back as of last Thursday. It's been just over a week now of reducing my intake to just 4-5 hits per evening, late at night and shortly before bed so I don't get the urge to just keep smoking after I've started.
It's been incredibly easy to kick, I'm gonna save a boatload of cash, and I don't spend the day craving it. I appreciate the clearer head that I have, and the increased productivity I feel. But that doesn't mean it's easy for everyone, as I'm sure people use this as a crutch for a variety of reasons.
Edit: I think one of the things that has helped me keep my consumption reduced compared to other people in this thread (someone mentioning nearly an eight per day) has been my refusal to do dabs. Those are incredibly more potent and can really quickly kick your tolerance up a notch. I did one just once and it hit me so hard I immediately fell back and had to lean in place against a wall without moving for 20 minutes. I don't know how people can do that shit regularly.
Presumably that lifestyle has also protected you from all the other 10% risks you haven’t fallen prey to yet?
Humans can get hooked to anything that triggers a 'feel good' response, be it gorging on food, drugs, gambling or even exercising.
With all the grinding, long hours and stressful situations "modern life" puts us through, it's not difficult to see how people more and more just want to hit the 'instant gratification' button instead of actually getting better by working their underlying issues.... there is simply no time for downtime and relaxation anymore, everyone is just too busy doing "actual important stuff", which is a sad matter of affairs.
With all the grinding, long hours and stressful situations "modern life" puts us through, it's not difficult to see how people more and more just want to hit the 'instant gratification' button instead of actually getting better by working their underlying issues.... there is simply no time for downtime and relaxation anymore, everyone is just too busy doing "actual important stuff", which is a sad matter of affairs.
The problem is that some of these activities that deliver gratification - drinking alcohol, drinking coffee, smoking weed, playing video games - can be physiologically addicting. You might not realize your habit has become an addiction until you're already addicted.
It's also sometimes a struggle to define when something is an addiction, and when it's healthy.
A cup of coffee a day. A couple hours of video games in the evening. Are these addictions? Where do you draw the line between healthy, and harmful? That seems fairly subjective to me. Yet, there's plenty of functional alcoholics that would say the same thing about their abuse, right?
A cup of coffee a day. A couple hours of video games in the evening. Are these addictions? Where do you draw the line between healthy, and harmful? That seems fairly subjective to me. Yet, there's plenty of functional alcoholics that would say the same thing about their abuse, right?
you just want to give a reason to indulge yourself. Every adult should clearly know the difference between good habit or bad addiction.
Is exercise a good habit or bad addiction?
Everything is bad for you if you do it enough. "All things in moderation", as the Greeks said.
It can both, since exercise can end up becoming pathological for some, especially those with body-image issues
I don't think you meant it, but the way you put that makes it sound like you don't think people should ever indulge in things they enjoy.
In that entire article, the only definition of 'marijuana addiction' is a single sentence, and one that requires further clarification:
> But in the public health and medical communities, it is a well-defined disorder that includes physical withdrawal symptoms, cravings and psychological dependence.
Does anyone know what the specific criteria are for diagnosis? The rest of the article seems to be quotes from various people stating without evidence "Yes, marijuana addiction is real"
I'm not saying it's not real, but nothing in this article provides any evidence that it is.
> But in the public health and medical communities, it is a well-defined disorder that includes physical withdrawal symptoms, cravings and psychological dependence.
Does anyone know what the specific criteria are for diagnosis? The rest of the article seems to be quotes from various people stating without evidence "Yes, marijuana addiction is real"
I'm not saying it's not real, but nothing in this article provides any evidence that it is.
Cannabis Use Disorder: https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/cannabis-use-disorder-d...
---begin quote---
According to the DSM-5, (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fifth edition) the criteria for Cannabis Use Disorder is as follows:
Use of cannabis for at least a one year period, with the presence of at least two of the following symptoms, accompanied by significant impairment of functioning and distress:
Difficulty containing use of cannabis- the drug is used in larger amounts and over a longer period than intended.
Repeated failed efforts to discontinue or reduce the amount of cannabis that is used
An inordinate amount of time is occupied acquiring, using, or recovering from the effects of cannabis.
Cravings or desires to use cannabis. This can include intrusive thoughts and images, and dreams about cannabis, or olfactory perceptions of the smell of cannabis, due to preoccupation with cannabis.
Continued use of cannabis despite adverse consequences from its use, such as criminal charges, ultimatums of abandonment from spouse/partner/friends, and poor productivity.
Other important activities in life, such as work, school, hygiene, and responsibility to family and friends are superseded by the desire to use cannabis.
Cannabis is used in contexts that are potentially dangerous, such as operating a motor vehicle.
Use of cannabis continues despite awareness of physical or psychological problems attributed to use- e.g., anergia, amotivation, chronic cough.
Tolerance to Cannabis, as defined by progressively larger amounts of cannabis are needed to obtain the psychoactive effect experienced when use first commenced, or, noticeably reduced effect of use of the same amount of cannabis
Withdrawal, defined as the typical withdrawal syndrome associate with cannabis, or cannabis or a similar substance is used to prevent withdrawal symptoms.
---end quote---
This is similar to substance misuse disorder.
https://www.verywellmind.com/dsm-5-criteria-for-substance-us...
---begin quote---
The DSM 5 recognizes substance-related disorders resulting from the use of 10 separate classes of drugs: alcohol; caffeine; cannabis; hallucinogens (phencyclidine or similarly acting arylcyclohexylamines, and other hallucinogens, such as LSD); inhalants; opioids; sedatives, hypnotics, or anxiolytics; stimulants (including amphetamine-type substances, cocaine, and other stimulants); tobacco; and other or unknown substances. Therefore, while some major groupings of psychoactive substances are specifically identified, the use of other or unknown substances can also form the basis of a substance-related or addictive disorder.
Substance use disorders span a wide variety of problems arising from substance use, and cover 11 different criteria:
Taking the substance in larger amounts or for longer than you're meant to.
Wanting to cut down or stop using the substance but not managing to.
Spending a lot of time getting, using, or recovering from use of the substance.
Cravings and urges to use the substance.
Not managing to do what you should at work, home, or school because of substance use.
Continuing to use, even when it causes problems in relationships.
Giving up important social, occupational, or recreational activities because of substance use.
Using substances again and again, even when it puts you in danger.
Continuing to use, even when you know you have a physical or psychological problem that could have been caused or made worse by the substance.
Needing more of the substance to get the effect you want (tolerance).
Development of withdrawal symptoms, which can be relieved by taking more of the substance.
---end quote---
---begin quote---
According to the DSM-5, (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fifth edition) the criteria for Cannabis Use Disorder is as follows:
Use of cannabis for at least a one year period, with the presence of at least two of the following symptoms, accompanied by significant impairment of functioning and distress:
Difficulty containing use of cannabis- the drug is used in larger amounts and over a longer period than intended.
Repeated failed efforts to discontinue or reduce the amount of cannabis that is used
An inordinate amount of time is occupied acquiring, using, or recovering from the effects of cannabis.
Cravings or desires to use cannabis. This can include intrusive thoughts and images, and dreams about cannabis, or olfactory perceptions of the smell of cannabis, due to preoccupation with cannabis.
Continued use of cannabis despite adverse consequences from its use, such as criminal charges, ultimatums of abandonment from spouse/partner/friends, and poor productivity.
Other important activities in life, such as work, school, hygiene, and responsibility to family and friends are superseded by the desire to use cannabis.
Cannabis is used in contexts that are potentially dangerous, such as operating a motor vehicle.
Use of cannabis continues despite awareness of physical or psychological problems attributed to use- e.g., anergia, amotivation, chronic cough.
Tolerance to Cannabis, as defined by progressively larger amounts of cannabis are needed to obtain the psychoactive effect experienced when use first commenced, or, noticeably reduced effect of use of the same amount of cannabis
Withdrawal, defined as the typical withdrawal syndrome associate with cannabis, or cannabis or a similar substance is used to prevent withdrawal symptoms.
---end quote---
This is similar to substance misuse disorder.
https://www.verywellmind.com/dsm-5-criteria-for-substance-us...
---begin quote---
The DSM 5 recognizes substance-related disorders resulting from the use of 10 separate classes of drugs: alcohol; caffeine; cannabis; hallucinogens (phencyclidine or similarly acting arylcyclohexylamines, and other hallucinogens, such as LSD); inhalants; opioids; sedatives, hypnotics, or anxiolytics; stimulants (including amphetamine-type substances, cocaine, and other stimulants); tobacco; and other or unknown substances. Therefore, while some major groupings of psychoactive substances are specifically identified, the use of other or unknown substances can also form the basis of a substance-related or addictive disorder.
Substance use disorders span a wide variety of problems arising from substance use, and cover 11 different criteria:
Taking the substance in larger amounts or for longer than you're meant to.
Wanting to cut down or stop using the substance but not managing to.
Spending a lot of time getting, using, or recovering from use of the substance.
Cravings and urges to use the substance.
Not managing to do what you should at work, home, or school because of substance use.
Continuing to use, even when it causes problems in relationships.
Giving up important social, occupational, or recreational activities because of substance use.
Using substances again and again, even when it puts you in danger.
Continuing to use, even when you know you have a physical or psychological problem that could have been caused or made worse by the substance.
Needing more of the substance to get the effect you want (tolerance).
Development of withdrawal symptoms, which can be relieved by taking more of the substance.
---end quote---
A very real thing is that weed is a crutch for depression here in the states.
Which speaks to the larger question, why are so many people in our society depressed?
Anxiety and depression go hand in hand. Modern life is hard on some people, fear of losing a job or making the next mortgage payment, or getting good grades, and so on can lead to anxiety in people who er toward flight rather than fight. This anxiety can trigger depression and then the horrible cycle begins.
Unsolicited life advice.
If you have to drink or do drugs to do your job, you should probably question your career path.
If you have to drink or do drugs to feel satisfied with your life, you should probably ask yourself what you have actually done to make your situation better.
Good for strippers, accountants, lawyers, anyone.
If you have to drink or do drugs to do your job, you should probably question your career path.
If you have to drink or do drugs to feel satisfied with your life, you should probably ask yourself what you have actually done to make your situation better.
Good for strippers, accountants, lawyers, anyone.
It seems to me that many people lack the capacity for this sort of introspection, especially those who are depressed. It also begs the question: what about the people who don't have the ability to make their lives better (either because they lack the capacity to make good decisions or that no good decisions are available for them to make given their circumstance)? At what point is it acceptable to take a broader view and note that the structure of our society itself is a major factor in widespread depression, rather than any poor personal choices made by individuals?
that was my first thought as well, but it is interesting that the addiction rate seems to double for those who started as a teenager. I guess it makes sense that changing chemical balances in the brain when it is growing that rapidly could easily cause dependencies.
There are studies that teens with a predisposition to schizophrenia and similar mental issues can actually be exacerbated by marijuana.
I haven't heard evidence of it doing the same for adults, but I'd have to check.
There are a number of reasons why children/teens shouldn't use it, and should be as tolerated a children smoking/drinking/opioid-ing
I haven't heard evidence of it doing the same for adults, but I'd have to check.
There are a number of reasons why children/teens shouldn't use it, and should be as tolerated a children smoking/drinking/opioid-ing
[deleted]
Hacker News reading can be an especially pernicious and problematic addiction. Seriously, often in the startup world I find software engineers with TODO lists spanning space and time compulsively reading and scanning the HN front page. Oh, look: cannabis users addicted, dopamine rush. Altruistic punishment means an immediate boost to social status and opportunities for bonding. So who exactly is addicted to what again?
Are you preoccupied by HN when you're doing something else? Do you seek HN when it's not available? Is using HN causing you harm but you continue to use it?
If you don't answer "yes" to each of these you're not "addicted" to HN.
If you don't answer "yes" to each of these you're not "addicted" to HN.
You know theoretically you can be addicted to anything, and sometimes one addiction can help with another one.
Perhaps that is the case, but what bothers me is that these arguments are often put forth as an argument for continuing to use the criminal justice system to address the problem.
You can see a lot of public health campaigners who said "we shouldn't legalise until we have some form of treatment set up and we have agreement from sellers that they'll provide warnings".
And then some US states legalised, and they mostly don't have treatment and they mostly don't have any point of sale information about harm, and so those same people are asking why not.
And then some US states legalised, and they mostly don't have treatment and they mostly don't have any point of sale information about harm, and so those same people are asking why not.
OK, but, again, the main alternative being proposed is locking people up for smoking weed, which is a funny way of helping them.
Not only that, but the fact that their is an extremely high correlation between those decrying the evils of the Devil's Tobacco and those who see nothing wrong with dosing tens of millions of people (including millions of small children) with powerful psychotropic drugs that have far more profound and less understood impacts on the human brain (especially the developing brain of a child) than marijuana.
It's interesting to hear that the skyrocketing quality of weed is making things worse, or more difficult for hardcore users, I agree. Meanwhile in Rio where I've smoked for years, quality is plummeting and/or price of quality weed, a rare thing to come by, is skyrocketing as combined effects of ever-present prohibition and financial crisis rage on.
It comes as a blessing in disguise for many people I know who have smoked daily for years, myself included. Hearing about close friends toning down or quitting as well is encouraging in a reverse peer pressure kind of way. After 6 years I finally decided there's too much crap going into my lungs (where plant material is the pristine part of that) to keep a habit without excessive spending. I quit buying and so quit my daily smoking cold turkey without bigger issues. A good wave of life events helped a lot to focus elsewhere.
I wouldn't think about never smoking again and it still happens some times a week when friends have it. I'm starting to feel more confident again in buying just a few grams of greener stuff once or twice a month and try to make it last, using after heavy exercise for pain/recovery management and trying to share what little I've got with friends too. It's a different mindset now, away from the loner self-absorbed retreats from life I had been used to, I feel much better for it. Not any point in this post I guess, just an anecdote.
It comes as a blessing in disguise for many people I know who have smoked daily for years, myself included. Hearing about close friends toning down or quitting as well is encouraging in a reverse peer pressure kind of way. After 6 years I finally decided there's too much crap going into my lungs (where plant material is the pristine part of that) to keep a habit without excessive spending. I quit buying and so quit my daily smoking cold turkey without bigger issues. A good wave of life events helped a lot to focus elsewhere.
I wouldn't think about never smoking again and it still happens some times a week when friends have it. I'm starting to feel more confident again in buying just a few grams of greener stuff once or twice a month and try to make it last, using after heavy exercise for pain/recovery management and trying to share what little I've got with friends too. It's a different mindset now, away from the loner self-absorbed retreats from life I had been used to, I feel much better for it. Not any point in this post I guess, just an anecdote.
> “She told me to come back home. So I did,” Pohl said. “At the time, I wasn’t sure why she did that. I was still in that whole miserable phase, smoking at least an ounce of weed a week — two ounces on a good week.”
Yikes. You can do just fine on one gram a month at today’s potency. Two ounces a week is 8 grams a day.
Yikes. You can do just fine on one gram a month at today’s potency. Two ounces a week is 8 grams a day.
[deleted]
1 per month? As a daily smoker, how?
Addiction is real, and rising.
Anything that downregulates neuroreceptors and reduces the production of a neurotransmitter will have a noticeable effect on the areas of the body where those receptors are prevalent, as well as the brain. Smoking cannabis reduces the production of anandamide, a naturally occurring endocannabinoid, and downregulates your CB receptors. Anandamide is being discovered to have essential roles in your endocrine system and many other systems. Cannabis addiction is very real, and can leave a heavy user hospitalized from the withdrawal effects. I have seen first hand heavy dab users being hospitalized with cannabis induced hyperemesis due to the lack of naturally produced anandamide and the downregulation of their cannabinoid receptors. Sure, the average or occasional user may be able to get by without severe side effects from their withdrawal, but with the ease of access we are finding people are smoking more cannabis then they ever have in the past. The mentality that the drug is safe leads to heavily increased use for those who quickly build tolerance. Sure the drug may not kill, but the physiological and psychological effects are not to be ignored.
Interesting. I always though that Marijuana is not as addicting because THC is stored in your fat. The THC gets slowly absorbed back into your system which lessens the withdrawals symptoms. I wonder if there is a threshold where your THC consumption far exceeds the maximum saturation of THC in your fat which make the person experience withdrawal symptoms similar to opioids.
I've been addicted to weed. Back in May I quit for a while and I had 2-3 days of withdrawal. It wasn't that bad overall, but I was grumpy and had no appetite for those few days. It's not accurate to say that cannabis is not physically addictive, even if it's much less so than opiates or alcohol.
Can we have a comparison with alcohol addiction? This would give an insight into whether is a wider problem as with alcohol.
Here is some of the latest science, an invited review from the Journal of Neuroimmune Pharmacology. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11481-018-9782-...
Here is a good quote from the discussion portion of this review:
<blockquote> As described in the Koob and Volkow model (2016), most drugs of abuse result in the hyperactivation of the mesocorticolimbic dopaminergic reward pathway in the binge-intoxication stage of addiction. This hyperactivation seems to be present in cannabis addiction but to a lower extent. Acute THC administration elicits striatal DA release in animals (Bloomfield et al. 2016) and THC challenges were shown to increase striatal DA transmission in humans (Stokes et al. 2010; Bossong et al. 2015); although other studies have found no THC-induced increases in striatal DA (Barkus et al. 2011; Urban et al. 2012). Additionally, there are no baseline differences in dopamine D2/D3 receptor availability between cannabis users and healthy controls (Volkow et al. 2014c; van de Giessen et al. 2017), a finding that does not parallel addiction to other drugs of abuse (including cocaine, alcohol, methamphetamine, nicotine, or heroin) which is associated with substantial reductions in D2R availability in the ventral striatum (Wang et al. 1997; Volkow et al. 2001, 2014c, 2017c; Martinez et al. 2012; Albrecht et al. 2013; Tomasi et al. 2015a; Wiers et al. 2016a; Ashok et al. 2017). Nonetheless, as with other drugs of abuse, chronic cannabis use still results in blunted dopamine reactivity to a stimulant challenge (Volkow et al. 2014c; van de Giessen et al. 2017). </blockquote>
furthermore (CUD = Cannabis Use Disorder):
<blockquote> Interestingly, chronic cannabis use is associated with a downregulation of CB1R – THC’s target receptor – that is restored after 4 weeks of abstinence in humans (Hirvonen et al. 2012). This pattern of abstinence-induced changes in target receptor density is also seen after abstinence from other drugs of abuse such as heroin, stimulants, and alcohol (in humans and animals) but with some caveats: the changes found are not consistent across brain regions for every drug and abstinence periods are not congruent between studies (Wang et al. 2012; Seip-Cammack et al. 2013; Ashok et al. 2017; Volkow et al. 2017c). Future studies should examine to whether changes in target receptors after abstinence are comparable across brain regions and if they follow the same time course in CUD and other SUD. </blockquote>
Basically, Cannabis is a little addictive, maybe, and abstinence makes most people somewhat cranky and sleepless for a few days.
Personally, I've been a constant consumer for 25+ years, vape all day and grow my own. Quit a week before leaving for a three week international vacation that I'm almost done with, because I was intrigued by the 4 weeks of abstinence quote above. Not much in the way of sleeplessness or crankiness. Plenty of weird dreams though. Just like all my usual abstaining vacations and visits home, which usually don't last a month. YMMV.
IMHO the real addiction is buying seeds. I think I have enough in my fridge to last me the rest of my life :-(
Here is a good quote from the discussion portion of this review:
<blockquote> As described in the Koob and Volkow model (2016), most drugs of abuse result in the hyperactivation of the mesocorticolimbic dopaminergic reward pathway in the binge-intoxication stage of addiction. This hyperactivation seems to be present in cannabis addiction but to a lower extent. Acute THC administration elicits striatal DA release in animals (Bloomfield et al. 2016) and THC challenges were shown to increase striatal DA transmission in humans (Stokes et al. 2010; Bossong et al. 2015); although other studies have found no THC-induced increases in striatal DA (Barkus et al. 2011; Urban et al. 2012). Additionally, there are no baseline differences in dopamine D2/D3 receptor availability between cannabis users and healthy controls (Volkow et al. 2014c; van de Giessen et al. 2017), a finding that does not parallel addiction to other drugs of abuse (including cocaine, alcohol, methamphetamine, nicotine, or heroin) which is associated with substantial reductions in D2R availability in the ventral striatum (Wang et al. 1997; Volkow et al. 2001, 2014c, 2017c; Martinez et al. 2012; Albrecht et al. 2013; Tomasi et al. 2015a; Wiers et al. 2016a; Ashok et al. 2017). Nonetheless, as with other drugs of abuse, chronic cannabis use still results in blunted dopamine reactivity to a stimulant challenge (Volkow et al. 2014c; van de Giessen et al. 2017). </blockquote>
furthermore (CUD = Cannabis Use Disorder):
<blockquote> Interestingly, chronic cannabis use is associated with a downregulation of CB1R – THC’s target receptor – that is restored after 4 weeks of abstinence in humans (Hirvonen et al. 2012). This pattern of abstinence-induced changes in target receptor density is also seen after abstinence from other drugs of abuse such as heroin, stimulants, and alcohol (in humans and animals) but with some caveats: the changes found are not consistent across brain regions for every drug and abstinence periods are not congruent between studies (Wang et al. 2012; Seip-Cammack et al. 2013; Ashok et al. 2017; Volkow et al. 2017c). Future studies should examine to whether changes in target receptors after abstinence are comparable across brain regions and if they follow the same time course in CUD and other SUD. </blockquote>
Basically, Cannabis is a little addictive, maybe, and abstinence makes most people somewhat cranky and sleepless for a few days.
Personally, I've been a constant consumer for 25+ years, vape all day and grow my own. Quit a week before leaving for a three week international vacation that I'm almost done with, because I was intrigued by the 4 weeks of abstinence quote above. Not much in the way of sleeplessness or crankiness. Plenty of weird dreams though. Just like all my usual abstaining vacations and visits home, which usually don't last a month. YMMV.
IMHO the real addiction is buying seeds. I think I have enough in my fridge to last me the rest of my life :-(
Physicians often have colloquially considered pot to not be a root cause for some patients, when it should be.
If a child starts self medicating with pot and then their life deteriorates along with their pot usage, there needs to be a focus on cessation of usage, particularly since the child’s brain is still developing.
This has nothing to do with addressing any other underlying issues that the child may be experiencing. Regardless, some people are best off staying away from pot entirely (as well as other substances that are not part of this discussion).
If a child starts self medicating with pot and then their life deteriorates along with their pot usage, there needs to be a focus on cessation of usage, particularly since the child’s brain is still developing.
This has nothing to do with addressing any other underlying issues that the child may be experiencing. Regardless, some people are best off staying away from pot entirely (as well as other substances that are not part of this discussion).
What's with these shitty anti drug articles all over HN? I just watched a bunch of armchair intellectuals argue over the ethics of ecigs, and now this.
MJ is not any more addictive than eating good food or jerking off. It's down to you and having good habits. If you don't have any self control, then anything that gives you a dopamine boost is going to give you problems.
MJ is not any more addictive than eating good food or jerking off. It's down to you and having good habits. If you don't have any self control, then anything that gives you a dopamine boost is going to give you problems.
mbowcutt(2)
grawprog(1)
C'mon, I smoke every day and still not addicted!
Here's a challenge.
Put all your stuff in a container, and put it on a shelf. Leave it there for a week, and don't use it.
Every time you think about opening the container, write it down. I bet you'll think about opening the container a LOT more than you think will.
Do you think you could make it to the end of the week? If not, you're addicted.
Put all your stuff in a container, and put it on a shelf. Leave it there for a week, and don't use it.
Every time you think about opening the container, write it down. I bet you'll think about opening the container a LOT more than you think will.
Do you think you could make it to the end of the week? If not, you're addicted.
That's a useful experiment, but that's not what people mean when they talk about cannabis addiction.
They mean that cannabis is having a profound harmful impact on the person's life, and the person cannot stop even though they recognise it's causing harm.
They mean that cannabis is having a profound harmful impact on the person's life, and the person cannot stop even though they recognise it's causing harm.
exactly. if I smoke every day and it does not have any impact on my life then it can't be called addiction.
How do you know?
I think parent was making a joke.
Of course it's a joke, u guys are too serious.
It is not.
You can spot propaganda piece by the language they use. "Marijuana", "addiction"... 9% is nothing new and generally accepted value. Comparing to alcohol dependency, cannabis dependency has dramatically lower health risks and sometimes is actually beneficial (self medication)
You speak as though most people who take up cannabis are aware of a 10% risk of addiction. Perhaps this ‘generally accepted value’ should be added to the marijuana advertising just to make sure.
That being said I don't think it has anything intrinsically to do with weed. People are just as addicted to cheeseburgers or coffee. The problem is a combination of personal character flaw, and a society that forces people into self medication of all forms.