South Korea's booming 'webtoons'(japantimes.co.jp)
japantimes.co.jp
South Korea's booming 'webtoons'
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/05/05/business/tech/south-koreas-booming-webtoons-put-japans-print-manga-notice/
116 comments
Interesting to see the picture on the top of the article, meant to represent Japanese print manga, features Shingeki no Kyojin (Attack on Titan) most prominently.
I don't think I've read any True Beauty, but then again, the fact that I'm not at all sure whether I have, whereas there is no chance of a snowball in hell that I'd confuse Shingeki No Kyojin for anything else, suggests to me that Japanese print manga still have a future. To say the least.
And can I take this opportunity to point people to Totsukuni no Shoujo (The Girl from the Other Side)?
https://myanimelist.net/manga/93972/Totsukuni_no_Shoujo
Once in a while, I find a little gem like that buried under all the shonen and shoujo in my local bookstore. That's what keeps me coming back for more.
I don't think I've read any True Beauty, but then again, the fact that I'm not at all sure whether I have, whereas there is no chance of a snowball in hell that I'd confuse Shingeki No Kyojin for anything else, suggests to me that Japanese print manga still have a future. To say the least.
And can I take this opportunity to point people to Totsukuni no Shoujo (The Girl from the Other Side)?
https://myanimelist.net/manga/93972/Totsukuni_no_Shoujo
Once in a while, I find a little gem like that buried under all the shonen and shoujo in my local bookstore. That's what keeps me coming back for more.
Warning: May be inappropriate comments ahead.
I stumbled upon the topic many years ago when I was looking at online publishing and making money. And Webtoons in South Korea caught my eyes, It was in its early days but I first thought it was some idea that will be destined to fail. Simply because I don't believe there is a market that are willing to pay for it, the content were; Amateur at best. And it was too easy to private. I was wrong. I knew I was wrong because it is gaining momentum not only in Japan, but also across in SEA.
There are two distinct category that Web Toons, and specially South Korea Webtoons excel in. LGBT and Adult Content.
In LGBT I have no idea the audience were huge, with distribution channel like the web, even a small percentage would be a massive Number. And it was amazing to see lots of female secretly fantasise about Gay Man. And unlike man where many are privating porn, they are very much willing to pay for it.
Then there is Hentai, ( the world actually means something else in Japanese but its English form is mostly used to describe Porn in Cartoons or 2D ). I mean, who enjoys it? And even if they did, who is wiling to paid for it? Again turns out the audience is actually gigantic. Pornhub even confirmed this when they release their data analysis.
One day I chatted with an old friends, he is a real life translator who used to do subtitle for Anime as hobby and ask him what is he up to. Turns out he was doing these Webtoons translation from Korean and was making good money. Good not in terms of amount, but in terms of time spent vs money made. As it was much easier to do compared to Animation.
I stumbled upon the topic many years ago when I was looking at online publishing and making money. And Webtoons in South Korea caught my eyes, It was in its early days but I first thought it was some idea that will be destined to fail. Simply because I don't believe there is a market that are willing to pay for it, the content were; Amateur at best. And it was too easy to private. I was wrong. I knew I was wrong because it is gaining momentum not only in Japan, but also across in SEA.
There are two distinct category that Web Toons, and specially South Korea Webtoons excel in. LGBT and Adult Content.
In LGBT I have no idea the audience were huge, with distribution channel like the web, even a small percentage would be a massive Number. And it was amazing to see lots of female secretly fantasise about Gay Man. And unlike man where many are privating porn, they are very much willing to pay for it.
Then there is Hentai, ( the world actually means something else in Japanese but its English form is mostly used to describe Porn in Cartoons or 2D ). I mean, who enjoys it? And even if they did, who is wiling to paid for it? Again turns out the audience is actually gigantic. Pornhub even confirmed this when they release their data analysis.
One day I chatted with an old friends, he is a real life translator who used to do subtitle for Anime as hobby and ask him what is he up to. Turns out he was doing these Webtoons translation from Korean and was making good money. Good not in terms of amount, but in terms of time spent vs money made. As it was much easier to do compared to Animation.
Commercial and independent gay and lesbian manga have existed for 40-50 years, and there's also a significant number of gay/lesbian anime and games.
I live Japan and this is a great example of how the culture holds on to tradition even if it hurts them over time. Manga is interesting because it’s actually a quite old art form, but the current print method of publication is not [1]. So, you’d expect the web to be a natural, obvious progression.
I’d liken the ethos here to: “Move slow and never break things.”
1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga
I’d liken the ethos here to: “Move slow and never break things.”
1 - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga
There are some programs that colorize manga(e.g. neural networks), if it was more popular it would add a competitive advantage vs webtoons - artists can tune automatic colorization themselves(vs drawing color). Reading monochrome black drawings is very confined expirience, such colors are depressive, dramatic and bleak - colors that evoke negative associations and melancholy.
Color expands the emotional gamut significantly.
I have paid to webtoons for fast-pass several times but not for manga from Japan. One of the reason is official translations come later than the fan translated versions. After a couple of days, there is no remaining discussion of the chapter at the community.
Also, the community is ready to pay for the new manga chapters. Last month, a fan translation group removed their translation of a webtoon, which was in the fast-pass period, because of backlash by the community.
I wish manga is more accessible. Because they are professionally crafted and have better storytelling.
Also, the community is ready to pay for the new manga chapters. Last month, a fan translation group removed their translation of a webtoon, which was in the fast-pass period, because of backlash by the community.
I wish manga is more accessible. Because they are professionally crafted and have better storytelling.
Eh, they'll die off. Tokypop used to try and license Korean manhwa here a while back ago, among other publishers. If you remember the movie the Priest, that was about as famous as it got here. I used to read it, usually it was the same problem a lot of Korean stuff has..it's an okay copy, but there isn't really an original spark to it that makes it come alive like manga does.
I'm a pretty huge reader of manga and I have been reading a couple of webtoons lately. Besides South Korean ones, there are couple of Chinese Webtoons that is based off of famous web novels that is really fun to read. South Korean webtoons tend to have "weird" formatting since its one long page rather like a book since its catered towards phones or tablets. I noticed a good amount of webtoons out of South Korea that is sponsored by Line originally but the industry has really taken off this past couple years with independent publishers. Not sure if this is true since I only see the English translated ones rather than the originals but I find that South Korean webtoons has a higher percentage of being explicit material. Not sure if it's because translators chose them on purpose since they have a higher click rate?
worth noting One Punch Man started out in a web toonish delivery mechanism before being turned into manga.
Web comics were pretty big in the West for a while, too - I guess they never really got large enough to be commercialized and produced on an industrial scale, though.
The article mentions that a lot of these webtoons are vertically-oriented for smartphones; is that what sets them apart? Or is it more of a genre thing? Did they maybe crank up the production values a bit?
https://xkcd.com/157/
The article mentions that a lot of these webtoons are vertically-oriented for smartphones; is that what sets them apart? Or is it more of a genre thing? Did they maybe crank up the production values a bit?
https://xkcd.com/157/
It may be a little bit of A, a little bit of B.
Anecdotally I can tell you I've seen many, many people reading webtoons on their phones on the subway. I've done it. The vertical format in this case is perfect.
Anecdotally I can tell you I've seen many, many people reading webtoons on their phones on the subway. I've done it. The vertical format in this case is perfect.
Definitely the vertical oriented for smart phones. You cannot view them in a page layout. Makes me kind of sad because I don't look at content on my small smartphone, instead I use a large LCD monitor or a large tablet. These webtoons are annoying to try to read on them. :( Makes me sad that I won't be able to read any because of the annoying interface.
On notice like scoring a point when you are down 10-0
“Internet threatens print industry” would’ve been a less interesting headline.
The ideas in Reinventing Comics are finally becoming mainstream.
Another day another story of an old style of business facing obsolescence due to shifting market conditions.
The narrative for stories like this one is usually “businesses stuck in their ways refuse to adapt and die out”, painting the business as fools who die due to their incompetence and conservative mindset. I’m curious, though; is there any reason why Japan’s manga publishers might want to retain their focus on print media rather than move to a digital focus?
Going digital seems like the clear optimal move here, they might even consider encouraging artists to create their own webtoons and make Japan competitive in that space. Why might they not want to do so?
The narrative for stories like this one is usually “businesses stuck in their ways refuse to adapt and die out”, painting the business as fools who die due to their incompetence and conservative mindset. I’m curious, though; is there any reason why Japan’s manga publishers might want to retain their focus on print media rather than move to a digital focus?
Going digital seems like the clear optimal move here, they might even consider encouraging artists to create their own webtoons and make Japan competitive in that space. Why might they not want to do so?
Web manga exists already as both redistribution and early talent development. What they are really lacking in is an eye towards global distribution.
One reason for fixating on print is the existing strong relationships the publishers have with both the physical book stores and the printing houses in Tokyo. Culturally hard to blow up those decades old relationships. It’s how it is.
One reason for fixating on print is the existing strong relationships the publishers have with both the physical book stores and the printing houses in Tokyo. Culturally hard to blow up those decades old relationships. It’s how it is.
> an old style of business facing obsolescence
Manga is nowhere near obsolete. It's such a huge market that there are entire supporting industries indirectly built around it.
> Why might they not want to do so?
Probably because they're raking in money.
Manga is nowhere near obsolete. It's such a huge market that there are entire supporting industries indirectly built around it.
> Why might they not want to do so?
Probably because they're raking in money.
> Manga is nowhere near obsolete
I agree. The obsolete label applies to print manga, not the medium itself.
I agree. The obsolete label applies to print manga, not the medium itself.
The question of why Japanese publishers are reluctant to move to the simpler format is addressed towards the end of the article and some good points are made.
At the end of the day great content wins though. The medium’s convenience really only makes a difference in the “filler” level content we consume.
For the winners of the power law in manga we’ll go wherever the great content happens to be. (That being said japan is so bad at modern global digital licensing / distribution they really have been leaving tons of money on the table for the last decade+)
For the winners of the power law in manga we’ll go wherever the great content happens to be. (That being said japan is so bad at modern global digital licensing / distribution they really have been leaving tons of money on the table for the last decade+)
It's honestly quite depressing to imagine just how much money is left on the table regarding manga. The demand for translations has lead to massive amounts of illegal sharing of digital/digitalized copies and there's even somewhat of a living to be made of unofficial translations (though I know many translate out of self interest).
I'm hoping that there'll eventually be a Steam for manga. I know several companies are trying to become that, but they've all failed to catch on with both consumers and producers.
I'm hoping that there'll eventually be a Steam for manga. I know several companies are trying to become that, but they've all failed to catch on with both consumers and producers.
Shueisha, (the biggest publisher and the one who runs Shounen Jump) has recently become a bit proactive. They released an app named Manga Plus that has most of their popular stuff for free.
It is relatively well designed app and releases come out inside of a week, after their release in Japan.
I still haven't gotten around to using it on a regular basis, but that's because I don't read manga on my phone. But, it is a step in the right direction.
> Steam for manga
A pipe dream that I share with you my friend.
It is relatively well designed app and releases come out inside of a week, after their release in Japan.
I still haven't gotten around to using it on a regular basis, but that's because I don't read manga on my phone. But, it is a step in the right direction.
> Steam for manga
A pipe dream that I share with you my friend.
US pricing is silly. But, the US market for this stiff is also fairly tiny. Outside of a small number of mega hits it’s just not worth the company’s time to try and sell to the US market.
Some of this just comes down to cultural differences. Most US novels don’t get translated to Japanese.
Some of this just comes down to cultural differences. Most US novels don’t get translated to Japanese.
I think part of the weirdness of the market is that they, unconsciously, are straddling the "content" and "souvenir/collectible" market. It's sort of like vinyl records today in that regard.
I'm a moderate enthusiast-- probably have like 200 volumes of English translations. I am not really interested in digital platforms, both because then you get no physical souvenir, and because I don't trust them to not implode suddenly. I suspect most long-term fans have a series or two they loved but had to give up on because the translator went bust or it disappeared from whatever service they subscribed to. Once bitten, twice shy...
I'm a moderate enthusiast-- probably have like 200 volumes of English translations. I am not really interested in digital platforms, both because then you get no physical souvenir, and because I don't trust them to not implode suddenly. I suspect most long-term fans have a series or two they loved but had to give up on because the translator went bust or it disappeared from whatever service they subscribed to. Once bitten, twice shy...
Japan and South Korea are in a battle over popular culture. Japan has the Cool Japan Fund to invest in pop culture projects.[1] The fund, backed by the Government of Japan and some big banks, was well-financed, but the projects have not been very successful.[2]
They need some better VCs.
[1] https://www.cj-fund.co.jp/en/ [2] https://www.nippon.com/en/news/fnn20180713001/floundering-co...
They need some better VCs.
[1] https://www.cj-fund.co.jp/en/ [2] https://www.nippon.com/en/news/fnn20180713001/floundering-co...
Who will win this battle? What are the ramifications?
There's no battle. Both Korea and Japan see the value in exporting cultural products, although I don't think the Korean government is focusing on webtoons as much as kpop.
Manga and webtoons are different and cater to different audiences.
In any case manga is much, much more popular and actually gets translations. I think this is due to the longer publishing schedules and how established manga is compared to webtoons.
Manga and webtoons are different and cater to different audiences.
In any case manga is much, much more popular and actually gets translations. I think this is due to the longer publishing schedules and how established manga is compared to webtoons.
Korean music is more popular in foreign countries than Japanese music, and their dramas may also be more popular, but manga, anime, light novels and Japanese games are so huge that there's no real competition going on here. I think many people overestimate the importance and popularity of Kpop.
I mean it seems hard to be very pop-culture when your country is pretty well known for the whole "go with the norms/traditions" stuff,
Anecdotal, but my wife is obsessed with webtoons and eagerly awaits new updates to the (50? 100?) different stories she’s following. It’s similar to the way I consume podcasts. She especially likes romance webtoons.
Before finding webtoons she had no interest in graphic novels, comics, anime, etc. and still doesn’t. She just likes her webtoons.
Before finding webtoons she had no interest in graphic novels, comics, anime, etc. and still doesn’t. She just likes her webtoons.
It's all about content and demographic targeting. Female targeted comics basically do not exist in the west. Shoujo manga is not popularized / suppressed by the western community. Webtoons have a lot of female creators early on represented that continuously pump out women targeted content. Women could easily be 80% of the core video game playing population if the correct content was made. It's an absolute joke that it's been more 10 years and we still haven't gotten a single twilight video game.
I think you’re wrong on both counts.
I know plenty of female targeted comics in Belgium and France.
And half of gamers are women. Women just like to play different games than men. Casual games that are dismissed as ‘real games’ by many. But even before smartphones casual games were a billion dollar industry.
There’s a study [1] that spells out which game genres are dominated by women. They surveyed 270,000 gamers about their favorite game titles. According to this study, women make up about 70% of match 3 and family/farm simulation games’ audiences. About half of casual puzzle and atmospheric exploration games are played by women, too. The gender ratio plummets when we get to first-person shooters, tactical shooters and racing games. At the bottom of the chart, a mere 2% of sports game-players are women
[1] https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre...
And half of gamers are women. Women just like to play different games than men. Casual games that are dismissed as ‘real games’ by many. But even before smartphones casual games were a billion dollar industry.
There’s a study [1] that spells out which game genres are dominated by women. They surveyed 270,000 gamers about their favorite game titles. According to this study, women make up about 70% of match 3 and family/farm simulation games’ audiences. About half of casual puzzle and atmospheric exploration games are played by women, too. The gender ratio plummets when we get to first-person shooters, tactical shooters and racing games. At the bottom of the chart, a mere 2% of sports game-players are women
[1] https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre...
You cannot compare the female targeted comics to something like marvel superheroes. I'd be shocked if it has even 1% of the popularity of male comics.
And of course I'm talking about games that cost 50+ million dollars to develop. I find your comment about different games to smack a bit segregationist. The female market dominate many hardcore games including the most popular game of 2016/2017 Arena of Valor: https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2018/01/02/57... You'll also notice a marked rise in gamers who play more recent games like Overwatch and Fortnite because they pander to men just a little less. Anyway I'm talking about core games and if you target correctly there should be as many girls playing those as in mobile games too.
And of course I'm talking about games that cost 50+ million dollars to develop. I find your comment about different games to smack a bit segregationist. The female market dominate many hardcore games including the most popular game of 2016/2017 Arena of Valor: https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2018/01/02/57... You'll also notice a marked rise in gamers who play more recent games like Overwatch and Fortnite because they pander to men just a little less. Anyway I'm talking about core games and if you target correctly there should be as many girls playing those as in mobile games too.
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>It's all about content and demographic targeting. Female targeted comics basically do not exist in the west. Shoujo manga is not popularized / suppressed by the western community. Webtoons have a lot of female creators early on represented that continuously pump out women targeted content. Women could easily be 80% of the core video game playing population if the correct content was made. It's an absolute joke that it's been more 10 years and we still haven't gotten a single twilight video game.
Man, that's a pretty big reach to go from shoujo manga is unpopular to "the west is suppressing women's media". While growing in popularity for some time, I believe that manga in the US was and still remains a niche market that remains associated (to a greater extent than comics) with low social status groups.
I will say that the American comic scene is pretty inbred though. Yes, there are indie comics, but in the US, the vast majority of comic sales are from two companies marketing their shared universes and associated characters [1]. In comparison, manga tends to have each author put out >=1 distinct series, typically with their own separate worlds. I believe the same applies to the french/belgian comic scene as well.
[1] https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2018.html
Man, that's a pretty big reach to go from shoujo manga is unpopular to "the west is suppressing women's media". While growing in popularity for some time, I believe that manga in the US was and still remains a niche market that remains associated (to a greater extent than comics) with low social status groups.
I will say that the American comic scene is pretty inbred though. Yes, there are indie comics, but in the US, the vast majority of comic sales are from two companies marketing their shared universes and associated characters [1]. In comparison, manga tends to have each author put out >=1 distinct series, typically with their own separate worlds. I believe the same applies to the french/belgian comic scene as well.
[1] https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2018.html
> Shoujo manga is not popularized / suppressed by the western community.
Really, do you have some numbers? Here in Germany, Shoujo/Shounen Ai are the most popular genres. I would imagine that those are pretty popular in France as well for example.
Really, do you have some numbers? Here in Germany, Shoujo/Shounen Ai are the most popular genres. I would imagine that those are pretty popular in France as well for example.
Almost no one besides the publishers have numbers, but it is rare for more than 1 or 2 (probably sailor moon or fruits basket) shoujo books to be in the Amazon top 100 manga titles at a time. And that cool Josei title everyone is talking about was no where near that list.
When the Manga boom was at it's height in the US (like 2005 or so) IIRC the consumers of Manga were something like almost 60% women or girls, and I doubt it has changed drastically. And while I remember Peach Girl and Nana and Hana Yori Dango (and the aforementioned fruits basket!) being popular at the time, I don't think they were 60% of the sales. And Shoujo is less successful in the US today than 15 years ago.
(There are plenty of theories for why, elaborated elsewhere.)
When the Manga boom was at it's height in the US (like 2005 or so) IIRC the consumers of Manga were something like almost 60% women or girls, and I doubt it has changed drastically. And while I remember Peach Girl and Nana and Hana Yori Dango (and the aforementioned fruits basket!) being popular at the time, I don't think they were 60% of the sales. And Shoujo is less successful in the US today than 15 years ago.
(There are plenty of theories for why, elaborated elsewhere.)
I do not have the numbers unfortunately, this is just my impression from being in New York. I know that some of my female friends feel forced to read stuff like One Piece (which is great) to fit in with the "community". I don't know how it is in Europe but I would suspect that it's still male dominated with shoujo/shounen ai being maybe 30% of sales if at that? I'm pretty sure here in the US it's like 15%.
Absolutely not. I unfortunately don't have sales numbers like it's the case in Japan but the Shoujo/Shounen Ai/Yaoi manga consistently rank very well. If you aren't into those, going to a bookstore is basically pointless since they occupy most of the shelf space.
As an example, the top 20 Tokyopop manga in the month of March 2019 [1] had 8 Shoujo, 4 Shounen-Ai/Yaoi, 5 Other and 3 non-defined in it with one Yaoi manga selling the most. It wouldn't surprise me if the sales are actually around 65-70% of the total number, and that's with One Piece still being around.
[1] https://www.japaniac.de/tokyopops-meistverkaufte-manga-im-ma...
Here is also the top 15 of 2017 for KAZÉ (the covers say it all): https://www.anime2you.de/news/183746/die-top-15-meistverkauf...
[1] https://www.japaniac.de/tokyopops-meistverkaufte-manga-im-ma...
Here is also the top 15 of 2017 for KAZÉ (the covers say it all): https://www.anime2you.de/news/183746/die-top-15-meistverkauf...
Hmm I guess I'm wrong, or maybe Germany is just different. Do you know if that's reflected in the overall community including piracy? Do people in Germany not like Attack on Titan and One Piece?
How does your source compare with this: https://www.amazon.de/gp/bestsellers/books/698198
The list is about what I'd expect with mostly shounen near the top but there is decent yaoi representation. Not a single what I would consider normal shoujo though.
American: https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Manga/zgbs/...
I would say this more about reflects my guess. 30% for the DE site and 15% for the American one.
How does your source compare with this: https://www.amazon.de/gp/bestsellers/books/698198
The list is about what I'd expect with mostly shounen near the top but there is decent yaoi representation. Not a single what I would consider normal shoujo though.
American: https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Kindle-Store-Manga/zgbs/...
I would say this more about reflects my guess. 30% for the DE site and 15% for the American one.
Hm, it would be a hard guess but in my opinion, readers of Shounen likely read the manga online on some reader or website (at least comparatively more than Shoujo fans). As mentioned in the earlier post, One Piece is absolutely relevant, being the last one of the Big Three still ongoing. SnK is ok, as are other Shounen. Sword Art Online is weirdly popular, although it's hard to classify that as Shounen/Shoujo, it attracts a rather large female audience for some reason.
I wouldn't necessarily give an Amazon list too much weight. Bookstores here in Germany are everywhere and people like to buy there, especially because you can take a quick look into the manga you are buying. So the lists from publishers tend to be worth more. The good part about the Amazon bestseller list is that it includes Carlsen manga where I couldn't find any info from the publisher regarding sales.
Another publisher I couldn't find anything on is Egmont Manga. The list for spring 2019 says it all though: https://www.egmont-manga.de/fruehjahr-2019/
So no, 30% is definitely wrong.
I wouldn't necessarily give an Amazon list too much weight. Bookstores here in Germany are everywhere and people like to buy there, especially because you can take a quick look into the manga you are buying. So the lists from publishers tend to be worth more. The good part about the Amazon bestseller list is that it includes Carlsen manga where I couldn't find any info from the publisher regarding sales.
Another publisher I couldn't find anything on is Egmont Manga. The list for spring 2019 says it all though: https://www.egmont-manga.de/fruehjahr-2019/
So no, 30% is definitely wrong.
Presumably, from the rest of your comment, the perspective of said Twilight game would be of the main female character? Don't remember her name, but most of her screen time is spent merely looking disinterested. Not sure how well that would translate to video game mechanics.
This made me remember how badly I wanted a reverse Zelda game though, where Link gets in trouble and you have to rescue him as Zelda :)
This made me remember how badly I wanted a reverse Zelda game though, where Link gets in trouble and you have to rescue him as Zelda :)
Have you seen this?
https://clockworkzelda.tumblr.com/
https://clockworkzelda.tumblr.com/
No, but that's very cool! Thanks for linking it to me, sorta :)
I was excited and was seeking out the original poster to see if they were after some programming skills, but it doesn't seem like the project went past the concept art phase. Shame, I would have loved to work on it.
I was excited and was seeking out the original poster to see if they were after some programming skills, but it doesn't seem like the project went past the concept art phase. Shame, I would have loved to work on it.
If I may ask, where does she consume them?
Line Webtoon [0] has a ton that I enjoy reading. It does just about everything perfectly that I have wanted over 20+ years of reading web comics.
I enjoy reading a lot of web comics (Girl Genius, Gunnerkrigg Court, PA, etc), but have _always_ wanted an RSS feed or similar that would make it trivial to read / continue-reading a comic that doesn't update every day. (I very nearly wrote a scraper to scrape some when getting to their archives proved hard, but decided not to.)
The webtoon app remembers which ones you read, which episode you are on, and _where in the episode_ you are. The only down side is that reading progress seems to be saved on the device, so reading on a web browser vs reading on a mobile device. The mobile app will ping me whenever one of the comics I follow has an update. (I dislike that it pings me for random "you might like this comic ..." notifications, but it's I think the only thing I dislike.)
If you like Romance, I recommend "Siren's Lament". If you like post-apocalyptic/horror, HIVE is well done (though I stopped reading it, it was what got me hooked on the platform).
I still periodically open a half dozen browser tabs to check up on the web-only comics I enjoy, but finding/consuming more than a few is a pain in the neck, and I frankly would read them 100% on Webtoons if they were published there.
0: https://www.webtoons.com/en/
I enjoy reading a lot of web comics (Girl Genius, Gunnerkrigg Court, PA, etc), but have _always_ wanted an RSS feed or similar that would make it trivial to read / continue-reading a comic that doesn't update every day. (I very nearly wrote a scraper to scrape some when getting to their archives proved hard, but decided not to.)
The webtoon app remembers which ones you read, which episode you are on, and _where in the episode_ you are. The only down side is that reading progress seems to be saved on the device, so reading on a web browser vs reading on a mobile device. The mobile app will ping me whenever one of the comics I follow has an update. (I dislike that it pings me for random "you might like this comic ..." notifications, but it's I think the only thing I dislike.)
If you like Romance, I recommend "Siren's Lament". If you like post-apocalyptic/horror, HIVE is well done (though I stopped reading it, it was what got me hooked on the platform).
I still periodically open a half dozen browser tabs to check up on the web-only comics I enjoy, but finding/consuming more than a few is a pain in the neck, and I frankly would read them 100% on Webtoons if they were published there.
0: https://www.webtoons.com/en/
> I enjoy reading a lot of web comics (Girl Genius, Gunnerkrigg Court, PA, etc), but have _always_ wanted an RSS feed or similar that would make it trivial to read / continue-reading a comic that doesn't update every day.
I don't know what PA is, but Girl Genius and Gunnerkrigg Court have RSS feeds that tell you when a new page is available. Of the webcomics I read, only a very small minority doesn't support RSS, although that might be selection bias on my part. Most seem to be using some kind of WordPress plugin specialized for comic websites, which provides RSS support out of the box.
I don't know what PA is, but Girl Genius and Gunnerkrigg Court have RSS feeds that tell you when a new page is available. Of the webcomics I read, only a very small minority doesn't support RSS, although that might be selection bias on my part. Most seem to be using some kind of WordPress plugin specialized for comic websites, which provides RSS support out of the box.
That's a good point though. Webtoons have the app, english-speaking manga communities have gathered around scanlation hub-sites like the now defunct batoto and their like. However, webcomics are in general stuck on late 2000s individual webpages with a small roll of "friends of the creator" links.
I wouldn't know specifically about OP but probably one of these: https://www.webtoons.com/en/ https://www.lezhin.com/en
They’re essentially the same thing. I see ads for webtoons but the tropes are the same you see in manga. Very large breasted women who are all attracted to the socially awkward nerdy guy.
That is probably more indicative of the kind of content that pulls in eyeballs when broadly advertised than the genre as a whole. For example https://www.heartofkeol.com/ probably counts as a "webtoon" and follows a different set of tropes.
Also a matter of targeting - with fresh accounts browsing certain subsets where I didn't bother to install have clearly gotten work youtube for music loops to think of me as a woman completely accidentally.
I got essentially entirely romance manga banner ads and video ads were for birth control, menstrual products, and oddly schizophrenia medication (not sure if that is broad targetted or not). It makes them look amusingly inept at ad targeting and someone in marketing look kind of sexist - given that guy ads tried to sell me cars and beer constantly.
I got essentially entirely romance manga banner ads and video ads were for birth control, menstrual products, and oddly schizophrenia medication (not sure if that is broad targetted or not). It makes them look amusingly inept at ad targeting and someone in marketing look kind of sexist - given that guy ads tried to sell me cars and beer constantly.
There's manga about cooking, golf, video games, samurai, World War II, social problems, fantasy, scifi, single parenthood, mountain climbing, volleyball, lesbians, office work... anything you could think of. "Large breasted women attracted to the socially awkward nerdy guy" is just a Western meme.
Webtoons have a very interesting business model. Unlike manga, webtoons are usually free and ad supported. I don't even have to sign up to start reading one in most cases. The interesting part is, webtoons are usually released once a week and you can actually pay ~30cents to read the latest episode before it's released next week for free. So if you can't wait another week after a cliff hanger, you can pay to read the next episode and now you're stuck in a vicious cycle of paying every episode to be one episode ahead.
Most webcomic artists have been using this model for a while now; no one likes ads and they don't pay much, but $1 a month on Patreon to see pages a week early isn't too much to ask. There are often higher tiers for bonus content (sketches, high-res pages, side comics, etc.) as well.
A value meal for 0.30USD, count me in. The concern is how much of it gets to the artist.
One other element to webtoons' success that isn't mentioned in this article: When I see people talking about comics with LGBT themes that aren't from the US, a significant % of them are Korean webtoons on one of the multiple portals that have dozens of active series with those themes in them. This seems like a savvy way to target audiences that are traditionally underserved (i.e. if they want to find this content, japanese or otherwise, it's quite difficult). Some of the portals seem to specialize in this content - Approximately 1/2 of Lezhin's active series appear to be about homosexual romance, for example. For a Japanese consumer a lot of this content is either in 1-3 focused monthly/bimonthly print series or picked up at comics festivals in-person.
I've seen some attempts to target this audience from Chinese artists as well but with the policy changes made by the Chinese government lately I have no idea if those artists will be able to continue with their work - I've seen a few reports from artists that the government is actively punishing them for releasing that kind of content now (hopefully this is not true).
I've seen some attempts to target this audience from Chinese artists as well but with the policy changes made by the Chinese government lately I have no idea if those artists will be able to continue with their work - I've seen a few reports from artists that the government is actively punishing them for releasing that kind of content now (hopefully this is not true).
Korean here who has been watching webtoons since the very beginning.
Unlike some recent hits made by printed manhwa artists, webtoons were initially an amateur thing. Where as mangas always seemed to have a certain level of professionality in terms of detail and storytelling.
That said, it is interesting how Koreans adapt to these technologies really fast and globalize their culture through a media platform.
It feels really weird when you spot someone reading a webtoon in public in the US because that was just native Koreans who lived in Korea 5 years ago.
Unlike some recent hits made by printed manhwa artists, webtoons were initially an amateur thing. Where as mangas always seemed to have a certain level of professionality in terms of detail and storytelling.
That said, it is interesting how Koreans adapt to these technologies really fast and globalize their culture through a media platform.
It feels really weird when you spot someone reading a webtoon in public in the US because that was just native Koreans who lived in Korea 5 years ago.
Since you've been reading webtoons for a long time, I have a question if you have time.
A lot of the most popular webtoons I've read are based on serialized novels (e.g. 귀환자의 마법은 특별해야 합니다) -- I've been wondering if this is an actual link, or just some kind of selection bias. Do you know?
A lot of the most popular webtoons I've read are based on serialized novels (e.g. 귀환자의 마법은 특별해야 합니다) -- I've been wondering if this is an actual link, or just some kind of selection bias. Do you know?
I'm not really sure what the "most popular" webtoons among non-Koreans.
I know some American friends who showed me some that were supposedly popular, but I couldn't recognize.
That's certainly not a trend in mainstream webtoons, which are usually the Naver Webtoons. Nearly all (can't think of any one based on something) of them on that platform are original content. Sometimes they get published as novels. Like Noblesse.
I think the particular one you mentioned is based on a webnovel (similar to webtoons but novels).
I definitely see this trend in Japanese mangas though.
That's certainly not a trend in mainstream webtoons, which are usually the Naver Webtoons. Nearly all (can't think of any one based on something) of them on that platform are original content. Sometimes they get published as novels. Like Noblesse.
I think the particular one you mentioned is based on a webnovel (similar to webtoons but novels).
I definitely see this trend in Japanese mangas though.
I'd compare the Korean webtoon scene more to the american webcomic scene than to the professional manga environment. Maybe it also compares well to doujin, though to me it feels like the closest resemblance is webcomics.
it’s great that this forces more manga to move to the web. where’s my Netflix for manga Japan?
anecdotally, on a JAL flight between Tokyo and London (for which Russia taxes every passenger individually, story for another time), I saw a bunch of manga on the in-flight entertainment system, and people were actually using it to read. cooler still, seeing both the parents and their children reading different manga.
anecdotally, on a JAL flight between Tokyo and London (for which Russia taxes every passenger individually, story for another time), I saw a bunch of manga on the in-flight entertainment system, and people were actually using it to read. cooler still, seeing both the parents and their children reading different manga.
If someone did a subscription service for manga with quality translations (and coloring) they'd make a killing, probably.
the problem is the medium: manga are just not made for digital consumption. they’re brilliant for analog thou.
i’ve tried a couple of these services, but they were quite subpar.
i’ve tried a couple of these services, but they were quite subpar.
I don't see how reading manga on an E-ink ereader, with one page filling the screen and "turning" pages by pressing the right side, is fundamentally different from reading it in "analog" (paper) form.
I wouldn't want to read it on a non E-ink screen, or have to scroll within a single page though.
I wouldn't want to read it on a non E-ink screen, or have to scroll within a single page though.
Parent probably was referring to reading it on a laptop or similar, which many people do. (I also read it this way).
I use the SimpleComic reader on OSX, first removing the menu and then fullscreening it. This requires me to download the manga beforehand. It works for me since I don't read that much manga.
Now that I have an ipad I wonder how well it could work.
I use the SimpleComic reader on OSX, first removing the menu and then fullscreening it. This requires me to download the manga beforehand. It works for me since I don't read that much manga.
Now that I have an ipad I wonder how well it could work.
Yeah, that's not true at all. Manga on a 8-10 inch-tablet can be far superiour to the poor paper manga are usually sold at. Though it's true that it also depends on the reading-app/service.
Do you know if there's an ipad app that easily lets you upload manga via zip files?
Sorry, I 'don't use iOS. I have an Android-Tablet.
But short search says "Manga Storm CBR" is according to your demand. Search for cbr, which is the common fileformat for comic-archives. You can also widen the search and search for comic-apps or reader-apps in general. Manga seems to be often a bit to specific in those cases.
But short search says "Manga Storm CBR" is according to your demand. Search for cbr, which is the common fileformat for comic-archives. You can also widen the search and search for comic-apps or reader-apps in general. Manga seems to be often a bit to specific in those cases.
One factor not discussed in the article is the differing attitude towards exports, piracy and copy protection. Historically, and even today, it's extremely difficult to legally view lots of Japanese content outside Japan, yet Japanese producers pursue copyright claims with rabid fervor. Japanese publishers for books and music were also extremely resistant to move to e-books, digital downloads or streaming.
For whatever reason, South Korean publishers were not as myopic, meaning their content could be more easily accessed -- at first technically illegally, but soon there was a groundswell of demand that led to large-scale legal rebroadcasting (TV stations showing Korean dramas etc) and that then led to today's juggernaut. Manga is just the latest example of Japan losing a market that really should have been theirs for the taking.
For whatever reason, South Korean publishers were not as myopic, meaning their content could be more easily accessed -- at first technically illegally, but soon there was a groundswell of demand that led to large-scale legal rebroadcasting (TV stations showing Korean dramas etc) and that then led to today's juggernaut. Manga is just the latest example of Japan losing a market that really should have been theirs for the taking.
I don't think it's fair to call it myopic. That implies that one method is correct and the other is wrong. It's more of a cultural difference.
While South Korea has largely embraced the Western style of instant gratification hyper consumerism, Japan is more nuanced. And IMO, that's a good thing.
There is value in scarcity, and in context. It's OK if a publisher doesn't want its work distributed around the world for everyone to see. It's that publisher's property. Having to travel to Japan to see, read, or hear certain things is a good thing. If every thing and every experience was available everywhere, there would be no point in travel.
Having ramen in a hole-in-the-wall ramen shop beneath the train tracks in Japan is a different experience than having ramen in Japantown Los Angeles.
When my wife goes to Japan, she brings an small empty suitcase to ship home just for the books, magazines, and music she can't get here.
It's like artists who destroy their work after a show. Scarcity increases the object's value to some. And it's the artist's choice to do so, not the audience's.
I know this is an unpopular view, especially in tech circles, but you don't have a right to consume every piece of media ever created in every region around the world all the time.
While South Korea has largely embraced the Western style of instant gratification hyper consumerism, Japan is more nuanced. And IMO, that's a good thing.
There is value in scarcity, and in context. It's OK if a publisher doesn't want its work distributed around the world for everyone to see. It's that publisher's property. Having to travel to Japan to see, read, or hear certain things is a good thing. If every thing and every experience was available everywhere, there would be no point in travel.
Having ramen in a hole-in-the-wall ramen shop beneath the train tracks in Japan is a different experience than having ramen in Japantown Los Angeles.
When my wife goes to Japan, she brings an small empty suitcase to ship home just for the books, magazines, and music she can't get here.
It's like artists who destroy their work after a show. Scarcity increases the object's value to some. And it's the artist's choice to do so, not the audience's.
I know this is an unpopular view, especially in tech circles, but you don't have a right to consume every piece of media ever created in every region around the world all the time.
> but you don't have a right to consume every piece of media ever created in every region around the world all the time.
Oh you do. Artists and general creatives often tumble into the trap of thinking they can control the spread of their work following public release. You cannot control the zeitgeist of a generation. If your work is popular than the moment you print it, its spread is out of your hands. IP, copyright and legal action are lossy mechanisms that work against the prevailing system. I'm not saying they don't have value (they very much do!) but when your product is consumer-grade content that don't have infrastructure you own baked into its operation you'll find your stuff being obtained illegally if you don't make it available legally and quickly.
I've seen break-dancers expect to be able to have exclusive rights to movement into perpetuity enforced by community-driven shaming tactics (doesn't work) and I've read enough scanlations to know that the Japanese approach to print manga is negligent of the ramifications of globalisation. When you publish, its gone. You have to be more prepared at publish time in the modern era.
Oh you do. Artists and general creatives often tumble into the trap of thinking they can control the spread of their work following public release. You cannot control the zeitgeist of a generation. If your work is popular than the moment you print it, its spread is out of your hands. IP, copyright and legal action are lossy mechanisms that work against the prevailing system. I'm not saying they don't have value (they very much do!) but when your product is consumer-grade content that don't have infrastructure you own baked into its operation you'll find your stuff being obtained illegally if you don't make it available legally and quickly.
I've seen break-dancers expect to be able to have exclusive rights to movement into perpetuity enforced by community-driven shaming tactics (doesn't work) and I've read enough scanlations to know that the Japanese approach to print manga is negligent of the ramifications of globalisation. When you publish, its gone. You have to be more prepared at publish time in the modern era.
Just going to leave it here. Seems relevant
Planet Money: Joke Theft https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/04/06/710404524/epis...
Planet Money: Joke Theft https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/04/06/710404524/epis...
As Gabe Newell once said, piracy is a service problem. The only way to cut back on illegal copying is by making the legal way more convenient.
And yet when another company copies API documentation, HN calls for lynching their heads [0]. It seems the hacker crowd only has respect for copyright protections for work that they identify with. Protections for the eniineers and startups, but not the artists.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19719380
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19719380
The end result of refusing to provide your manga in digital form is not that people only consume it in the form you intended. Somewhat the opposite, in fact. Instead you simply have people scanning everything that gets published and distributing it for you, with you having zero say in the resulting quality.
For niche self-published works sold at conventions the number of illegal downloads is often dramatically higher than the total number of physical copies that exist, and the people who experience your art in its intended form are a minority.
For niche self-published works sold at conventions the number of illegal downloads is often dramatically higher than the total number of physical copies that exist, and the people who experience your art in its intended form are a minority.
> you don't have a right to consume every piece of media ever created in every region around the world all the time.
According to the first sale doctrine, you do. If someone buys media in Japan, then brings them back to the US (i.e. imports them), and sells them, that's entirely legal, and there's nothing the copyright owner can do about it.
And looking beyond what the law currently is, to perhaps what it should be, copyright should remunerate creators for copies of their works, not allow them to impose censorship, which is exactly what limiting distribution this way is.
According to the first sale doctrine, you do. If someone buys media in Japan, then brings them back to the US (i.e. imports them), and sells them, that's entirely legal, and there's nothing the copyright owner can do about it.
And looking beyond what the law currently is, to perhaps what it should be, copyright should remunerate creators for copies of their works, not allow them to impose censorship, which is exactly what limiting distribution this way is.
> It's OK if a publisher doesn't want its work distributed around the world for everyone to see.
> And it's the artist's choice to do so, not the audience's.
There's a (not) very subtle contradiction in these two sentences.
In short: yay for authors' rights, forever and ever! but I probably couldn't care less about the leeches^W publishers.
The faster the publishing industry - perpetually stuck in the 15th century and trying way too hard to bring us all back to that time - is brought down in flames and replaced the better.
> And it's the artist's choice to do so, not the audience's.
There's a (not) very subtle contradiction in these two sentences.
In short: yay for authors' rights, forever and ever! but I probably couldn't care less about the leeches^W publishers.
The faster the publishing industry - perpetually stuck in the 15th century and trying way too hard to bring us all back to that time - is brought down in flames and replaced the better.
Did you misread the parent comment? One statement is positive towards publisher's rights, the other is positive towards authors rights.
The first statement says the works of art belong to publishers ("...doesn't want its work..."), while the second implies that it's the authors who have full rights to their work ("...it's the artist's choice to do so..."). So, which is it?
To be more precise, you may not have the right but you do have the opportunity, when it comes to manga and anime. I don't know how feriociously japanese publishers pursue copyright offenders overseas but there certainly is a great number of unofficial translations online most of which seem to be made by people in the US and Europe.
Of course, the translations (and the scans) are often a bit crap. But you can still get an idea of the original's quality.
Of course, the translations (and the scans) are often a bit crap. But you can still get an idea of the original's quality.
>There is value in scarcity
I'd argue that for easily digitized works, there's no such thing as scarcity.
Certainly publishers have the right to sue and limit legal distribution, but it does seem at least naive for them to believe they can control illegal distribution. Perhaps that's not the rationale; maybe it's a purely principled stance.
Nevertheless, their work will be spread digitally, and it seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to not have some legal form of distribution that the publisher can make money from.
I'd argue that for easily digitized works, there's no such thing as scarcity.
Certainly publishers have the right to sue and limit legal distribution, but it does seem at least naive for them to believe they can control illegal distribution. Perhaps that's not the rationale; maybe it's a purely principled stance.
Nevertheless, their work will be spread digitally, and it seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to not have some legal form of distribution that the publisher can make money from.
"I'd argue that for easily digitized works, there's no such thing as scarcity."
Since AI can't create great pieces of art or digital works in a short amount of time, there still is scarcity.
Since AI can't create great pieces of art or digital works in a short amount of time, there still is scarcity.
What you seem to be arguing for is the scarcity of artists, rather than of art.
I meant that for existing works of art that are easily digitized (not created, taken from a physical format to a digital one), there is no such thing as scarcity if the consumers don't strongly prefer the physical version to the digital version.
Speaking of scarcity, valuing it, and protecting it, it seems that physical media, like CDs for music are, or were, more popular in Japan than other places [1].
Is the situation in South Korea similar or different? I don't know enough about either; just thinking out loud.
[1] http://fortune.com/2014/09/18/japan-cd-sales/
Is the situation in South Korea similar or different? I don't know enough about either; just thinking out loud.
[1] http://fortune.com/2014/09/18/japan-cd-sales/
Manga publishers and Japanese music publishers (uh... essentially Sony) are actually very different. To be fair, quite a long time ago manga publishers were actually incredibly lenient/naive about managing their copyright. I'm not sure I should admit this publicly, but I used to do translation for a scanlation group (we only did things that were out of print even in Japan... taking the moral, if not legal high road ;-) ). Publishers at that time generally left you alone and didn't really care about scanlators because they thought that there wasn't a market in the west.
This probably sounds unbelievable, but I actually talked my group into seeing if we could license the manga we were scanlating. I figured that since it was all obscure stuff (even in Japan) it wouldn't cost that much. So we contacted them and they were very interested. They sent us over a price sheet for various manga and I couldn't believe the cost. They were charging about $1000 per volume with no royalties! And that was for current stuff (at the time -- round about 2000).
You may have heard of Viz (publisher of translated manga). I can't remember exactly, but I believe even Inu Yasha was priced around that point (and I couldn't believe that Viz didn't have an exclusive deal). But basically, all at once I realised that Viz was built by essentially getting all the manga for free and publishing it!
Around about 2005, the manga publishers started to realise that they were being insane. Especially for manga that made it to anime, they began to aggressively get exclusive deals for the translation rights. Then they started to send out notices to groups (mostly fansubs, but I heard some scanlation groups got letters) to ask them to stop.
As for our group, we couldn't convince them to go to a digital platform. They were still really wary about it and didn't understand the technology. We didn't want to go to print because... Ummm... we had no money and were only doing it for fun. So we let it slide. They never contacted us again although they clearly new we were violating their copyright. They just didn't care, I think.
In my mind, anyway, that's how the manga/anime scene was built in the west originally anyway. It was powered by scanlation groups and fansubs. It was already super popular by the time the publishers realised that they had a market in the west -- and then they cashed in.
It's hard to say what Japanese publishers should do. I agree that they should have moved to digital a lot earlier. However, even saying that, we scanlated a web manga from an author we liked. It was incredibly unknown in Japan even though the author had a successful anime. Nobody in Japan was interested in a free web comic at the time. Bizarre, but true.
As for South Korea, I think they realise that they have to do things differently in order to break into the market. However, I'll predict that the situation will repeat itself. As soon as they have the kind of market share they want, they will start to close the doors. It's just the way these business guys think.
This probably sounds unbelievable, but I actually talked my group into seeing if we could license the manga we were scanlating. I figured that since it was all obscure stuff (even in Japan) it wouldn't cost that much. So we contacted them and they were very interested. They sent us over a price sheet for various manga and I couldn't believe the cost. They were charging about $1000 per volume with no royalties! And that was for current stuff (at the time -- round about 2000).
You may have heard of Viz (publisher of translated manga). I can't remember exactly, but I believe even Inu Yasha was priced around that point (and I couldn't believe that Viz didn't have an exclusive deal). But basically, all at once I realised that Viz was built by essentially getting all the manga for free and publishing it!
Around about 2005, the manga publishers started to realise that they were being insane. Especially for manga that made it to anime, they began to aggressively get exclusive deals for the translation rights. Then they started to send out notices to groups (mostly fansubs, but I heard some scanlation groups got letters) to ask them to stop.
As for our group, we couldn't convince them to go to a digital platform. They were still really wary about it and didn't understand the technology. We didn't want to go to print because... Ummm... we had no money and were only doing it for fun. So we let it slide. They never contacted us again although they clearly new we were violating their copyright. They just didn't care, I think.
In my mind, anyway, that's how the manga/anime scene was built in the west originally anyway. It was powered by scanlation groups and fansubs. It was already super popular by the time the publishers realised that they had a market in the west -- and then they cashed in.
It's hard to say what Japanese publishers should do. I agree that they should have moved to digital a lot earlier. However, even saying that, we scanlated a web manga from an author we liked. It was incredibly unknown in Japan even though the author had a successful anime. Nobody in Japan was interested in a free web comic at the time. Bizarre, but true.
As for South Korea, I think they realise that they have to do things differently in order to break into the market. However, I'll predict that the situation will repeat itself. As soon as they have the kind of market share they want, they will start to close the doors. It's just the way these business guys think.
> This probably sounds unbelievable, but I actually talked my group into seeing if we could license the manga we were scanlating. I figured that since it was all obscure stuff (even in Japan) it wouldn't cost that much. So we contacted them and they were very interested. They sent us over a price sheet for various manga and I couldn't believe the cost. They were charging about $1000 per volume with no royalties! And that was for current stuff (at the time -- round about 2000).
This is basically how Crunchyroll got started. They only removed the pirated content after they got the Naruto license.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-11-17/tv-tokyo-to...
This is basically how Crunchyroll got started. They only removed the pirated content after they got the Naruto license.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-11-17/tv-tokyo-to...
Probably changed by this point in time. Most manga can be found available online in digital format now. Admittedly, I'm a dead-tree loyalist here.
Nowadays, the manga publisher Shuiesha (known for the Weekly Shōnen Jump) has an official website where can view the last few chapters of each of their manga, translated into English.
Manga is very widespread in the West, so much so that it seems to even eclipse Western comics. It has a big piracy scene that the industry doesn't seem to be doing much to resist. Anime has been exported for as long as it's been around, a major anime boom started in the US in the late 90s, and now you can legally stream practically every anime series at the same time as it's airing in Japan (or after it's finished if it's on Netflix). Anime streaming grew out of pirate streaming until Crunchyroll went legit, and even before that there were tons of series released on DVD and fansubbed on the internet. Practically nothing is or has been done about piracy. Foreign revenue for the anime industry has been growing by leaps and bounds and has never been higher. (https://aja.gr.jp/english/japan-anime-data)
So it's not true that Japanese media is poorly distributed outside Japan, that copyright enforcement is too strict, and that Korea has been eating Japan's lunch. Very few people even know about webtoons compared to manga; r/webtoons has 2K subscribers, r/manhwa has 5.5K, while r/manga and r/anime both have a million. Korea's animation industry is practically non-existent compared to Japan's, and their game industry isn't much better. Kpop is more internationally successful than Jpop, but that's also because Jpop just doesn't appeal to Westerners. I believe Kdramas were at some point more successful and widespread in the West, but I'm not sure what the situation is today. There are now many Jdramas on Crunchyroll and Netflix.
I'd take anything the Western media says about Japan with a big pile of salt, because they've long been pushing various doom-and-gloom narratives about a struggling Japan. Chinese animation was supposed to have upstaged the anime industry by now, according to the media.
So it's not true that Japanese media is poorly distributed outside Japan, that copyright enforcement is too strict, and that Korea has been eating Japan's lunch. Very few people even know about webtoons compared to manga; r/webtoons has 2K subscribers, r/manhwa has 5.5K, while r/manga and r/anime both have a million. Korea's animation industry is practically non-existent compared to Japan's, and their game industry isn't much better. Kpop is more internationally successful than Jpop, but that's also because Jpop just doesn't appeal to Westerners. I believe Kdramas were at some point more successful and widespread in the West, but I'm not sure what the situation is today. There are now many Jdramas on Crunchyroll and Netflix.
I'd take anything the Western media says about Japan with a big pile of salt, because they've long been pushing various doom-and-gloom narratives about a struggling Japan. Chinese animation was supposed to have upstaged the anime industry by now, according to the media.
At the risk of sounding somewhat like I'm stereotyping, why is this? I never associated this with Japan in particular, but between losing out of loads of Japanese music I followed a few years ago and Nintendo basically invalidating everyone's Wii purchases it feels like it is ingrained in the corporate culture over there particularly for the large publishers.
Not that we have our own blemishes, DMCA, disregard for things like fair-use, parody and so on, etc. Heh, now that I think of it we have our own issues too.
Not that we have our own blemishes, DMCA, disregard for things like fair-use, parody and so on, etc. Heh, now that I think of it we have our own issues too.
I'd be very surprised if South Korea doesn't still view itself as an underdog, both economically and culturally. They were very poor until the early 1990s. As recently as the mid 1970s, they were still third world poor.
Japan was a mighty empire not so long ago, and then quickly rose again after the 1950s to have one of the most potent economies. In the late 1980s while Japan was viewed as taking over the world economically, South Korea was just beginning to stir (Japan's economic output per capita was about 6x that of South Korea in the late 1980s). All the way back to the early 1960s, Japan had 5x to 6x the output per capita of South Korea.
I think a country that perceives itself as an underdog always behaves very different from a country that regards being on top as their natural right (which was certainly Japan's attitude during their economic ascension decades). South Korea will surpass Japan's per capita economic output in the next dozen years, for the first time in over a century. It'll be quite the accomplishment.
Japan was a mighty empire not so long ago, and then quickly rose again after the 1950s to have one of the most potent economies. In the late 1980s while Japan was viewed as taking over the world economically, South Korea was just beginning to stir (Japan's economic output per capita was about 6x that of South Korea in the late 1980s). All the way back to the early 1960s, Japan had 5x to 6x the output per capita of South Korea.
I think a country that perceives itself as an underdog always behaves very different from a country that regards being on top as their natural right (which was certainly Japan's attitude during their economic ascension decades). South Korea will surpass Japan's per capita economic output in the next dozen years, for the first time in over a century. It'll be quite the accomplishment.
I read this bit below 2 - 3 years ago online.
>> Annual profit/revenue (not quite sure) of Samsung Electronics (not Samsung overall, just Electronics) was greater than or equal to top 9 Japanese electronic firms combined, including Sony.
I think the comparison does not include Sony Films though? Not quite sure.
A lot of people look at the economic miracle of West Germany and Japan post WW2 with admiration. Amazing accomplishments for sure. But both nations already had well established education, technology, institutions, and etc that were already present at end of WW2. Sure, a lot of it had been destroyed/disrupted because of the war. But they were there.
South Korea on the other hand had none of that. S. Korea never had the core ingredients needed for economic recovery. In 1945, literacy rate in Korea was 22%. Korea as a whole was just barely joining the modern world around 1900, a lot of it due to the colonization by Japan.
It is an amazing achievement.
I think S. Korea also feels more threatened than others because it shares land/sea border with China, Russia, and Japan. China/Russia, 2 most powerful nations with non-democratically elected government...
EDIT: Before someone yells at me for putting down Japan and/or putting Korea on a pedestal, I am just stating a fact I read. For sure, Japan has had amazing achievement in the past.
>> Annual profit/revenue (not quite sure) of Samsung Electronics (not Samsung overall, just Electronics) was greater than or equal to top 9 Japanese electronic firms combined, including Sony.
I think the comparison does not include Sony Films though? Not quite sure.
A lot of people look at the economic miracle of West Germany and Japan post WW2 with admiration. Amazing accomplishments for sure. But both nations already had well established education, technology, institutions, and etc that were already present at end of WW2. Sure, a lot of it had been destroyed/disrupted because of the war. But they were there.
South Korea on the other hand had none of that. S. Korea never had the core ingredients needed for economic recovery. In 1945, literacy rate in Korea was 22%. Korea as a whole was just barely joining the modern world around 1900, a lot of it due to the colonization by Japan.
It is an amazing achievement.
I think S. Korea also feels more threatened than others because it shares land/sea border with China, Russia, and Japan. China/Russia, 2 most powerful nations with non-democratically elected government...
EDIT: Before someone yells at me for putting down Japan and/or putting Korea on a pedestal, I am just stating a fact I read. For sure, Japan has had amazing achievement in the past.
Japan does need a bit of putting down. I've been to Japan and the Meiji Shrine had people with flags of Imperial Japan doing a photo session.
They're quite admirable as a people in most respects but that's just misguided. Especially since without US backing China would definitely want to have a word or two with them about those war criminals. And today's China is not China during the century of humiliation.
On the other hand South Korea did everything peacefully. They deserve their praise 120%. I just wish they'd be reunited with North Korea peacefully and with the resulting country following the South Korean model.
That would be a great counterbalance in the region to Chinese ambition.
They're quite admirable as a people in most respects but that's just misguided. Especially since without US backing China would definitely want to have a word or two with them about those war criminals. And today's China is not China during the century of humiliation.
On the other hand South Korea did everything peacefully. They deserve their praise 120%. I just wish they'd be reunited with North Korea peacefully and with the resulting country following the South Korean model.
That would be a great counterbalance in the region to Chinese ambition.
What, a whole country needs to be taken down a peg because a few idiots posed with imperial flags in a wartime srhine?
I'm not going to support the gross generalization that an entire country needs to be humbled, BUT: the shrine is a flashpoint of Japanese ultra-nationalism, which is on the rise.
Common ultra-nationalist beliefs are fairly odious: e.g. Japan should be applauded for liberating much of East Asia from Western colonial powers, the 1946-1948 Tokyo War Crimes tribunals were illegitimate, and the killings by Imperial Japanese troops during the 1937 "Nanjing massacre" were exaggerated or fabricated.
Common ultra-nationalist beliefs are fairly odious: e.g. Japan should be applauded for liberating much of East Asia from Western colonial powers, the 1946-1948 Tokyo War Crimes tribunals were illegitimate, and the killings by Imperial Japanese troops during the 1937 "Nanjing massacre" were exaggerated or fabricated.
Regarding illegitimacy, in absence of any laws anything can be legal (no laws) but not moral. Just going to leave it here
Tokyo Trial https://www.netflix.com/in/title/80091880
Tokyo Trial https://www.netflix.com/in/title/80091880
Those things are true, but the OP said that "Japan" has to be taken down.
As a not unrelated aside, nationalism is on the rise everywhere and if this doesn't change there will be new wars and possibly another (very) big one. I am personally freaked out very much by the rise of nationalism in the EU where I live. I'm not one to trivialise waving flags at a war memorial.
But- again, why does this indict the entire of Japan? Are all Japanese likely to go wave imperial flags at Meiji?
As a not unrelated aside, nationalism is on the rise everywhere and if this doesn't change there will be new wars and possibly another (very) big one. I am personally freaked out very much by the rise of nationalism in the EU where I live. I'm not one to trivialise waving flags at a war memorial.
But- again, why does this indict the entire of Japan? Are all Japanese likely to go wave imperial flags at Meiji?
Do you know the history of the shrine? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meiji_Shrine
It's far from a "few idiots". The place is super controversial. A nice place, but super controversial, politically.
It's far from a "few idiots". The place is super controversial. A nice place, but super controversial, politically.
Are you maybe thinking of Yasukuni? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasukuni_Shrine
Yeah, my bad, wrong link.
Yes, I know what the Meiji shrine is.
Like I say above, why do a few idiots waving flags at Meiji mean that _the entire country_ needs to be "taken down" like the OP says?
I stress that this is "Japan"- the whole of Japan. Not the idiots waving flags at Meiji. Are all Japanese nationalist assholes?
Like I say above, why do a few idiots waving flags at Meiji mean that _the entire country_ needs to be "taken down" like the OP says?
I stress that this is "Japan"- the whole of Japan. Not the idiots waving flags at Meiji. Are all Japanese nationalist assholes?
The Rising Sun flag remains the flag of the Japanese Navy to this day, and is appropriate to fly on any occasion where you'd fly a Navy flag.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rising_Sun_Flag
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rising_Sun_Flag
The flag had the sun centered...
Japan still uses tape to go from agency to broadcaster (this has only started to change over the last couple of years) and a lot of it is to do with not wanting to put people out of work and less about adopting technology. The way business works in japan is just so different to anywhere else in the world.
Japanese people are reading ad-supported free manga on their phones and tablets constantly nowadays.
There are several competing services and they seem to be spending a lot on advertising right now if the amount of TV commercials is anything to go by
There are several competing services and they seem to be spending a lot on advertising right now if the amount of TV commercials is anything to go by
Can someone please link to a webtoon so I can figure out wtf they're talking about?
I feel old.
I feel old.
I mean, "webtoons" aren't really a thing in western culture. You can think of the posts like chapters from a comic. Anyway, here's the latest chapter[0] of 마음의 소리 (The Sound of Your Heart) which is popular. Enough to have its own tv show on netflix.
You can see more of them at comic.naver.com [1]
[0]: https://comic.naver.com/webtoon/detail.nhn?titleId=20853&no=...
[1]: https://comic.naver.com/index.nhn
You can see more of them at comic.naver.com [1]
[0]: https://comic.naver.com/webtoon/detail.nhn?titleId=20853&no=...
[1]: https://comic.naver.com/index.nhn
I really enjoyed the first season of The Sound of Your Heart.
I read 'Tower of God', it's basically a Shonen like Naruto.
(google as I can't link it here- though naver has a public open version somewhere)
Tower of god is available on webtoons.com which is the western site of naver (as in they own it and most of their popular stuff ends up there). It also has a quite good app as others have pointed out.
The site also has stuff made by western artist these days.
The site also has stuff made by western artist these days.
If you like really, really dark SF, I would recommend Denma, but for some inexplicable reason they seem to have rearranged the panels in some dummy's-mobile-friendly format. What a sacrilege.
https://www.webtoons.com/en/sf/denma/1-a-dog-of-panama-1/vie...
The original format actually looks like this:
https://comic.naver.com/webtoon/detail.nhn?titleId=119874&no...
Disclaimer: the author is infamous for never being on time, and it's not complete yet.
https://www.webtoons.com/en/sf/denma/1-a-dog-of-panama-1/vie...
The original format actually looks like this:
https://comic.naver.com/webtoon/detail.nhn?titleId=119874&no...
Disclaimer: the author is infamous for never being on time, and it's not complete yet.
Holy cow. I've been reading Denma on webtoons.com for over a year now, I had no idea they changed the format. The original looks so much better.
Man, how the table has turned. This was exactly how South Korea imported Japanese manga and anime for decades. Up until mid-90s virtually all Japanese manga was "Koreanized" in a similar way, even though by that time everybody knew they were Japanese. In earlier days they wouldn't even tell us: there are a generation or two of Korean boys who grew up thinking Atom, Mazinga and Future Boy Conan were Korean animations.
The wounds of colonization (1910-1945) were still raw, and admitting you liked Japanese culture was frowned upon for a very long time. (Which is ironic, considering most of children's prime time TV shows were made in Japan.)
South Korea briefly had a renaissance of comics ("manhwa") in the 90s, but then widespread piracy together with the advent of the internet killed off the industry in the early 2000s. I remember a comic strip where the protagonist (the artist himself) decides to kill himself after going broke, so he turns on the gas valve and go to sleep. He wakes up the next day because the gas line was shut off for non-payment.
I think a major reason why Korea embraced webtoon so easily is that the traditional comics industry was essentially burned to ground. Webtoons were initially a side dish, offered by web portals (which are still strong in Korea) to lure viewers because servers were cheap and artists were also cheap (where else would they go, anyway?). (It also explains why it's basically free and ad-supported.) But then it started to make money, and then money started to attract talents, and so on.
If someone told me, only five years ago, that Korean webtoons will threaten Japanese manga industry, I would've laughed. "What are you talking about? It's Japan!"