Microsoft turns an obsession with detail into micron-optimized keyboards(techcrunch.com)
techcrunch.com
Microsoft turns an obsession with detail into micron-optimized keyboards
https://techcrunch.com/2019/07/26/how-microsoft-turns-an-obsession-with-detail-into-micron-optimized-keyboards/
54 comments
Not to mention the Microsoft version is very significantly fundamentally worse than earlier designs from the 1960s and 70s... and 80s... and 90s.... and later designs from the 2000s... and 2010s...
It really read like: look how much fancy stuff we have!
Great but it’s the results that count...
They do have the cool hinge on the surface monitor so that’s rad...
Great but it’s the results that count...
They do have the cool hinge on the surface monitor so that’s rad...
> Microsoft may be known primarily for its software and services,
Not to me. I ditched their software 17 years ago, but I love their hardware. I’ve used a Microsoft ergo keyboard since the first one.
I literally bought a new one yesterday after spilling water on my old one after having it for the last eight years.
Not to me. I ditched their software 17 years ago, but I love their hardware. I’ve used a Microsoft ergo keyboard since the first one.
I literally bought a new one yesterday after spilling water on my old one after having it for the last eight years.
Used to be a Microsoft hardware fan, until my MS Sculpt Ergnomic Mouse broke thrice in 2 months.
What did break in it? I'm using sculpt since it was released and the mouse is still alive.
But I can't say that about the USB receiver, it broke after 6 months (it stopped receiving anything frombmouse/keyboard and the plastic cover just broke). The replacement keyboard has almost the same issue with the receiver (loses contact depending ontthe way it is inserted), so I put it in an USB hub so I won't need to touch it and break the contacts. Besides that I love it, and I love that the useless numpad is not the part of keyboard (BTW.I why every 15 inch laptop keyboard is has those is beyond me), I store it in a drawer.
But I can't say that about the USB receiver, it broke after 6 months (it stopped receiving anything frombmouse/keyboard and the plastic cover just broke). The replacement keyboard has almost the same issue with the receiver (loses contact depending ontthe way it is inserted), so I put it in an USB hub so I won't need to touch it and break the contacts. Besides that I love it, and I love that the useless numpad is not the part of keyboard (BTW.I why every 15 inch laptop keyboard is has those is beyond me), I store it in a drawer.
That’s a bit shitty, I’ve had mine for 2 years now and still going strong
Same here, I have one (sculpt ergonomic) at work since almost two years ago and recently I bought another one a month ago.
What I noticed is that the key feedback on the new one is a bit different. I think over time those caps are loosing their properties.
Has anyone noticed this or I'm the only one?
What I noticed is that the key feedback on the new one is a bit different. I think over time those caps are loosing their properties.
Has anyone noticed this or I'm the only one?
Rubber dome keys do not provide for a good typing experience. I recommend switching over to a mechanical keyboard, there are so many different key types to choose from, depending on what you're looking for (tactile, clicky, or linear of varying heaviness).
If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard, the Advantage Kinesis[1] for example, comes in both tactile and linear key offerings. Also, checkout ErgoDox or keyboard.io (I haven't tried the latter).
[1] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/
If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard, the Advantage Kinesis[1] for example, comes in both tactile and linear key offerings. Also, checkout ErgoDox or keyboard.io (I haven't tried the latter).
[1] https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/
Dang, I was reading this article, scrolled close to the bottom, and the site suddenly "reloaded" with completely different articles, removing the entire Microsoft keyboard article from the page. Why would they implement such a user-hostile design, making it impossible to access the content I came to the site for?
Mine keeps redirecting to the home page (!)
This is not dang's business lol lol
I'm guessing they meant "darn it," not "Hello, HN lead mod. I have a question for you!"
dang you are right lol
Because it's "sticky"
And the massive whole page cookie permission redirect that forces a response without being able to see the article... I try to avoid techcrunch for this reason. Sometimes if I'm on mobile I just use reading mode which ignores whatever JavaScript is being used to do it.
I can't agree with the claims of this article.
Kinesis is far ahead of MS's so-called "ergonomic" keyboards. I know because I suffer from RSI and have tried every model I could get my hands on.
Kinesis is far ahead of MS's so-called "ergonomic" keyboards. I know because I suffer from RSI and have tried every model I could get my hands on.
The wildly more hand-friendly Kinesis model 100 was earlier, ~1992 (from https://kinesis-ergo.com/company/about-kinesis/ ), and the ergonomic Matron was pre-1980, I think.
The Natural has always been a watered-down, cheap feeling keyboard by comparison to thm, with - it would seem - much more attention being paid to not looking too weird than to actually being ergonomic, such as not straightening out the key columns, going convex, putting control keys where the thumbs can reach them, etc. It's pathetic. The only truly positive attribute specific to the Natural when compared to other ergonomics keyboards is that it was cheap, < $100. Although it also felt cheap, wore out relatively quickly making it more expensive per year of potential use, and had a terrible key mechanism that may have negated a good part of any ergonomic benefit - especially after some wear.
I'm biased, of course, I've typed on the "Naturals" and have several Kinesis Ergos. The latter keyboard style is the only thing that's made typing comfortable, and in the office I work in, I'm no alone in preferring them.
The Natural has always been a watered-down, cheap feeling keyboard by comparison to thm, with - it would seem - much more attention being paid to not looking too weird than to actually being ergonomic, such as not straightening out the key columns, going convex, putting control keys where the thumbs can reach them, etc. It's pathetic. The only truly positive attribute specific to the Natural when compared to other ergonomics keyboards is that it was cheap, < $100. Although it also felt cheap, wore out relatively quickly making it more expensive per year of potential use, and had a terrible key mechanism that may have negated a good part of any ergonomic benefit - especially after some wear.
I'm biased, of course, I've typed on the "Naturals" and have several Kinesis Ergos. The latter keyboard style is the only thing that's made typing comfortable, and in the office I work in, I'm no alone in preferring them.
One I want to try is the Ergodox EZ. It's basically a mashup of my two favorite Kinesis (Advantage 2 and Edge). Have you tried it yet?
Not the OP but I have one that's collecting dust. I've chosen single profile keycaps for it (the keycaps have the same "shape" for every rows) because I wanted to use the Colemak layout, but I was never able to get used to it.
To be honest didn't tried too much. I also have an old Kinesis Advantage model, the one with the rubber function keys (I hate them, the Advantage2 has new function keys but they still look cheap membrane buttons) anyway I'm quite satisfied with a TECK 209, it's not perfect but it's more portable than the Advantage if I'm on the go.
I suppose the next one to try would be a Maltron.
To be honest didn't tried too much. I also have an old Kinesis Advantage model, the one with the rubber function keys (I hate them, the Advantage2 has new function keys but they still look cheap membrane buttons) anyway I'm quite satisfied with a TECK 209, it's not perfect but it's more portable than the Advantage if I'm on the go.
I suppose the next one to try would be a Maltron.
When upgrading from a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 I was debating between the Kinesis Advantage 2 and the Ergodox EZ. The Ergo 4000 was my first ergonomic keyboard (and amazing for the cost) but I grew frustrated by the layout and rubber domes.
One of the blokes at work had an Ergodox and he was kind enough to give me a go. It was great fun - from memory the thumb clusters were closer than the Kinesis which would be great if you have smaller hands (for those who haven't tried the Kinesis Advantage - the thumb clusters are a little far away, using the 2 smallest keys closest to the bottom-centre isn't comfortable for me)
I thought the standout feature was mouse control at the hardware level - think hjkl but moving the mouse instead of your cursor. I have yet to find a way to do that with the Kinesis in software - if somebody can do this please let me know!
The reason I chose the Kinesis is the key wells felt great. It felt more natural for the keys to be the same distance from my fingers as they moved forwards and back in an arc.
The Ergodox was a lot more portable, though I thought I would be frustrated having to set up each half at the perfect distance and tenting each time. You also have a greater switch selection than the Kinesis Advantage if you want something clicky.
One of the blokes at work had an Ergodox and he was kind enough to give me a go. It was great fun - from memory the thumb clusters were closer than the Kinesis which would be great if you have smaller hands (for those who haven't tried the Kinesis Advantage - the thumb clusters are a little far away, using the 2 smallest keys closest to the bottom-centre isn't comfortable for me)
I thought the standout feature was mouse control at the hardware level - think hjkl but moving the mouse instead of your cursor. I have yet to find a way to do that with the Kinesis in software - if somebody can do this please let me know!
The reason I chose the Kinesis is the key wells felt great. It felt more natural for the keys to be the same distance from my fingers as they moved forwards and back in an arc.
The Ergodox was a lot more portable, though I thought I would be frustrated having to set up each half at the perfect distance and tenting each time. You also have a greater switch selection than the Kinesis Advantage if you want something clicky.
Have you also tried non-qwerty layouts, e.g. Norman? They may help with RSI as well.
No RSI problems, but typing on a Kinesis Advantage with the Colemak layout is absolutely divine!
It makes every staggered keyboard feel like a relic from another age, they make no sense to me at all.
It makes every staggered keyboard feel like a relic from another age, they make no sense to me at all.
> It makes every staggered keyboard feel like a relic from another age, they make no sense to me at all.
I agree with you totally, it boggles my mind and I'm so frustrated that we are still replicating a layout necessary for mechanical levering when it's not required by at least a century...
I agree with you totally, it boggles my mind and I'm so frustrated that we are still replicating a layout necessary for mechanical levering when it's not required by at least a century...
I was curious what "micron-optimized" meant but it's just catchy headline copy.
>> I may as well say at the outset that this piece was done essentially at the invitation (but not direction) of Microsoft...
Bad habits die hard.
Reminds me of the good old days we were fighting Microsoft in Israel, where the local marketing team would prep journalists (one especially made a career out of it) in its offices, who would later publish articles explaining why Linux is so bad for you and why it has no future. The good old “get the facts” campaign and such.
Bad habits die hard.
Reminds me of the good old days we were fighting Microsoft in Israel, where the local marketing team would prep journalists (one especially made a career out of it) in its offices, who would later publish articles explaining why Linux is so bad for you and why it has no future. The good old “get the facts” campaign and such.
Micron-optimized keyboard sounds like horrible reliability. Speck of dust and laptop is ruined (Surface laptops can not be repaired in non-destructive way).
I had 4x Natural 4000 keyboards, they had constant problems due to bad design. Space bar got stuck. Keyboard wiring was prone to corrosion and shortcuts, keys would randomly stop working. Had to disassemble keyboard, wash inside with mild acid and leave it to dry.
At end I did this repair once a month and had multiple keyboards on rotation. I put up with that, there was no alternative at that time.
I had 4x Natural 4000 keyboards, they had constant problems due to bad design. Space bar got stuck. Keyboard wiring was prone to corrosion and shortcuts, keys would randomly stop working. Had to disassemble keyboard, wash inside with mild acid and leave it to dry.
At end I did this repair once a month and had multiple keyboards on rotation. I put up with that, there was no alternative at that time.
Reading about how diverse their testers are made me wonder: why is the end result only a single size? Why do they not go all the way and offer their keyboards and mice in multiple sizes?
Likely not profitable to have so many SKUs.
Their soundproof room is NEGATIVE 20 decibels?!
You could probably hear your own heartbeat in those conditions...
[deleted]
I get a distinct impression from this article that the target user is a trained typist. It would be interesting to find out if an ergonomist would think differently about a keyboard to be used by users who do not touch type, that is, the vast majority of users.
There used to be notebooks with slightly curved keyboards, can’t recall the vendor (HP? Dell?). I really wish Microsoft (and Apple) would re-set this trend.
Yeah right, obsessed with shaving some µm from keyboards but then let's put laptop style "short travel keys" keyboards on a desk because it looks cool. And not get me started with using the same horizontal staggered layout that was necessary 200 years ago on typewriters but it makes absolutely no sense today.
The fun thing is I've seen "ortholinear" keyboards sold for kids because horizontal staggered layout is for adults...
P.S. in my personal experience vertical staggered should be the default layout
P.P.S. and yes bikeshedding
The fun thing is I've seen "ortholinear" keyboards sold for kids because horizontal staggered layout is for adults...
P.S. in my personal experience vertical staggered should be the default layout
P.P.S. and yes bikeshedding
Is vertical staggered the same as ortholinear? Haven’t encountered the term before.
Agree that default physical layout + qwerty as status quo is disappointing, though.
Agree that default physical layout + qwerty as status quo is disappointing, though.
“Ortholinear” is a made up word for “put all the keys in a fixed grid because hey it’s easy” (“orthos” was the Greek word for “straight”, “linea” was Latin for “line”).
“Vertical stagger” means that the keys are arranged in columns instead of rows, but the columns are staggered to match the resting position of the various fingers.
“Vertical stagger” means that the keys are arranged in columns instead of rows, but the columns are staggered to match the resting position of the various fingers.
Ortholinear is no stagger in either direction.
Column stagger is what you see on the Ergodox or Atreus or Mitosis or Iris or any of the recently vast proliferation of ergo designs.
Column stagger is what you see on the Ergodox or Atreus or Mitosis or Iris or any of the recently vast proliferation of ergo designs.
Thanks for the references! I see that all three of the above favor split-hand design alongside with vertical staggering.
I'm not completely sure, I think with ortholinear is used to indicate "array" layout keyboard like the Plank (first Google image link: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/440508407294189587/ )
Unfortunately, being a big company, they can’t do anything very radical or work from first principles. Just like every other big company today, all of their keyboard designs end up being mediocre spinoffs of a basic keyboard designed in the 1870s which had evolutionaruy changes (not all ergonomically positive) in the 1920s–30s, and then again in the 60s, then again in the 90s.
The IBM keyboards produced from 1960–1990 are better than anything Microsoft puts out today: faster to type on, more ergonomic, much more reliable, sturdier, ... and of course much more expensive to produce. For particularly nice examples, take a look at these, https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Beam_Spring_Keyboards
Or pick your favorite other vendor. Pretty much all of keyboards sold in the 70s–80s were better than anything available at mass scale today. Back then computers were competing head to head with typewriters, and the best electronic typewriters were really nice to type on. I’m partial to the Canon typewriters of the early 1980s with nice Alps switches, but e.g. some Olympia typewriters of the early 80s were deliciously clicky.
For at least the 2 decades from 1980–2000, pretty much every change in mass-market keyboards was driven by cost cutting. It’s not too surprising that quality degraded.
Even if we assume we can’t change the basic keyboard shape, one of the important features that Microsoft (and most other) keyboards have dropped since the 90s is that further-away rows on keyboards used to be elevated above the home row in a sort of step-like pattern. This makes it much easier to reach the tops of those keys, and therefore speeds up typing them. The original designs from the typewriters of the 60s and 70s were based on research done by Honeywell and IBM and imitated widely, but later keytop profiles (including for modern Microsoft keyboards) were designed by people who didn’t understand the reason for the design, and just imitated a progressively watered down form. (Indeed an even more aggressive step than the ones used on those old keyboards is ergonomically preferable for most typists.)
* * *
All of Microsoft’s fancy lab studies seem to me like A-B testing all of the possible choices of features for a penny-farthing bicycle without ever considering adding a chain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny-farthing
If what we care about is ergonomics (which is to say, reducing static strain on muscles in the hand/arm while using the strong and efficient part of the main finger flexors’ range of motion to type, and reducing the finger and arm motion required to reach the keys), then the Maltron from the 1970s is much better than any of the dome-shaped Microsoft keyboards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltron
Better still, my favorite concept is a never-mass-produced ergonomic keyboard design called the DataStealth from the 1990s, http://web.archive.org/web/20000601172323/http://www.protomi... which is in my opinion the most anatomically informed design ever seriously undertaken, developed by an expert from first principles.
But also check out this awesome IBM patent from 1964, https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63415.0
Or see the Japanese TRON project keyboards, http://xahlee.info/kbd/TRON_keyboard.html
Or more recently, Keyboardio, https://shop.keyboard.io/
The IBM keyboards produced from 1960–1990 are better than anything Microsoft puts out today: faster to type on, more ergonomic, much more reliable, sturdier, ... and of course much more expensive to produce. For particularly nice examples, take a look at these, https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Beam_Spring_Keyboards
Or pick your favorite other vendor. Pretty much all of keyboards sold in the 70s–80s were better than anything available at mass scale today. Back then computers were competing head to head with typewriters, and the best electronic typewriters were really nice to type on. I’m partial to the Canon typewriters of the early 1980s with nice Alps switches, but e.g. some Olympia typewriters of the early 80s were deliciously clicky.
For at least the 2 decades from 1980–2000, pretty much every change in mass-market keyboards was driven by cost cutting. It’s not too surprising that quality degraded.
Even if we assume we can’t change the basic keyboard shape, one of the important features that Microsoft (and most other) keyboards have dropped since the 90s is that further-away rows on keyboards used to be elevated above the home row in a sort of step-like pattern. This makes it much easier to reach the tops of those keys, and therefore speeds up typing them. The original designs from the typewriters of the 60s and 70s were based on research done by Honeywell and IBM and imitated widely, but later keytop profiles (including for modern Microsoft keyboards) were designed by people who didn’t understand the reason for the design, and just imitated a progressively watered down form. (Indeed an even more aggressive step than the ones used on those old keyboards is ergonomically preferable for most typists.)
* * *
All of Microsoft’s fancy lab studies seem to me like A-B testing all of the possible choices of features for a penny-farthing bicycle without ever considering adding a chain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny-farthing
If what we care about is ergonomics (which is to say, reducing static strain on muscles in the hand/arm while using the strong and efficient part of the main finger flexors’ range of motion to type, and reducing the finger and arm motion required to reach the keys), then the Maltron from the 1970s is much better than any of the dome-shaped Microsoft keyboards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltron
Better still, my favorite concept is a never-mass-produced ergonomic keyboard design called the DataStealth from the 1990s, http://web.archive.org/web/20000601172323/http://www.protomi... which is in my opinion the most anatomically informed design ever seriously undertaken, developed by an expert from first principles.
But also check out this awesome IBM patent from 1964, https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63415.0
Or see the Japanese TRON project keyboards, http://xahlee.info/kbd/TRON_keyboard.html
Or more recently, Keyboardio, https://shop.keyboard.io/
> Unfortunately, being a big company, they can’t do anything very radical.
In my opinion, being big they have the means and resources to do some wacky and unorthodox experiment. I suppose that's same division that produced a Xbox controller for people with disabilities, it's quite a radical departure from the standard controller that one is used to find on a modern consoles: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/09/xbox-adaptive-control...
But, from what I know, they never tried something like this for keyboards.
In my opinion, being big they have the means and resources to do some wacky and unorthodox experiment. I suppose that's same division that produced a Xbox controller for people with disabilities, it's quite a radical departure from the standard controller that one is used to find on a modern consoles: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/09/xbox-adaptive-control...
But, from what I know, they never tried something like this for keyboards.
[deleted]
Are you talking about the querty layout?
No I am talking about the basic spatial arrangement of the keyboard keys and the mechanical design of the keyswitches.
> basic keyboard designed in the 19th century
You seem to mean the 20th century.
You seem to mean the 20th century.
Most modern keyboards are the result of small iterative changes to the keyboard of the first commercially successful typewriter, released in 1874. Note the QWERTY layout and staggered rows:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sholes_and_Glidden_typewriter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sholes_and_Glidden_typewriter
I love my IBM Model M! :)
This is just false. Split keyboards and sculpted bowls have been around since the 70s