Isolation, anxiety, and depression in the remote workplace(doist.com)
doist.com
Isolation, anxiety, and depression in the remote workplace
https://doist.com/blog/mental-health-and-remote-work/
173 comments
I think you're conflating the migrant issue with the remote worker issue.
Migrants have most of the issues you talk about; they're not close to their family networks, don't particularly feel that their current location is home, and where they came from certainly isn't home either.
I did remote work from my home town for a few years, for a US company. The biggest issues for me were not being plugged in to the internal politics of the company - water-cooler conversations and occasional chats after a few drinks don't happen; and not developing a network of local engineers who moved on to other companies, somewhat limiting my career options.
I've since moved out of my home country, and work in the office. I have a different set of problems also in common with what you list, specific to migration.
Migrants have most of the issues you talk about; they're not close to their family networks, don't particularly feel that their current location is home, and where they came from certainly isn't home either.
I did remote work from my home town for a few years, for a US company. The biggest issues for me were not being plugged in to the internal politics of the company - water-cooler conversations and occasional chats after a few drinks don't happen; and not developing a network of local engineers who moved on to other companies, somewhat limiting my career options.
I've since moved out of my home country, and work in the office. I have a different set of problems also in common with what you list, specific to migration.
It's really common, migrant or not.
Just because you have family around doesn't mean you see them every week.
This becomes a huge problem if you don't get any social contact at work, even if you don't thrive in that environment I'd say that it is a necessity for the vast majority of people.
Even for introverts that thrive alone.
Just because you have family around doesn't mean you see them every week.
This becomes a huge problem if you don't get any social contact at work, even if you don't thrive in that environment I'd say that it is a necessity for the vast majority of people.
Even for introverts that thrive alone.
Could be a bigger problem for migrants but doesn't has to be.
I know enough people without any family left or only one person left with relatives without a bond.
I know enough people without any family left or only one person left with relatives without a bond.
Are you me?
Some of my personal anecdotes going through the exact same circumstances (I'm also currently applying for dual US/Irish citizenship):
1) I hate working out. I don't want to do it. But when I do, I feel momentously better afterwards. I have not worked out consistently in the last 12 mo.
2) I hate cooking and cleaning up after cooking. I don't want to do it. But when I do, I feel better afterwards. I have not done significant amounts of home cooking in the last 12 mo.
3) Despite being a severely introverted individual I've become the person to push for more outings within my (small) social group. And I feel better afterwards.
4) I've gained about ~20 lbs in the last 12 mo.
5) I am tremendously comfortable with my current remote work and decent salary but I am not at all happy in a general sense
6) I worry my career is stagnating as I near my 2 year mark in this role. Hearing about the salaries my colleagues are getting at other companies contributes to
7) I've been using Tinder for casual dating. Recently I realized I really, really, don't want to use a Match Group product as the cornerstone of my dating life so now I'm trying to do it in more "natural" ways, but due to the above I find myself not being a great candidate.
Overall, working remotely has contributed greatly to a sense of depression and anxiety I carry almost every day. However I've been dealing with it long enough that I think I have a good sense of it, I'm doing better these past few months then the rest of the year combined and have clear goals (like the working out) that will help me do better.
I hope these points aren't too candid, I just figured many in this community could be going through the same things and hearing a shared story would help.
Some of my personal anecdotes going through the exact same circumstances (I'm also currently applying for dual US/Irish citizenship):
1) I hate working out. I don't want to do it. But when I do, I feel momentously better afterwards. I have not worked out consistently in the last 12 mo.
2) I hate cooking and cleaning up after cooking. I don't want to do it. But when I do, I feel better afterwards. I have not done significant amounts of home cooking in the last 12 mo.
3) Despite being a severely introverted individual I've become the person to push for more outings within my (small) social group. And I feel better afterwards.
4) I've gained about ~20 lbs in the last 12 mo.
5) I am tremendously comfortable with my current remote work and decent salary but I am not at all happy in a general sense
6) I worry my career is stagnating as I near my 2 year mark in this role. Hearing about the salaries my colleagues are getting at other companies contributes to
7) I've been using Tinder for casual dating. Recently I realized I really, really, don't want to use a Match Group product as the cornerstone of my dating life so now I'm trying to do it in more "natural" ways, but due to the above I find myself not being a great candidate.
Overall, working remotely has contributed greatly to a sense of depression and anxiety I carry almost every day. However I've been dealing with it long enough that I think I have a good sense of it, I'm doing better these past few months then the rest of the year combined and have clear goals (like the working out) that will help me do better.
I hope these points aren't too candid, I just figured many in this community could be going through the same things and hearing a shared story would help.
I know it's easier said than done, but you can't rely on work alone to make you happy. You have to take that task on yourself. I would even go so far to say you shouldn't even rely on your spouse to make you happy. They should complement you.
I would also say that you have to embrace the biggest benefit of remote work - personal agency. Most remote workers I know (myself included) can for the most part work when we want to work. I can workout at 10am or go train BJJ at 9:30am. Instead of having to shape my day around work, I can shape work around my day. The personal agency aspect is the biggest benefit for me, and one that I would be hard pressed to ever give up at this point.
BTW, working from home should make it much easier to maintain the weight you want since healthy food options should be easier at home. WFH means I can throw some chicken and veggies on the grill at lunch for a healthy and cheap meal.
I would also say that you have to embrace the biggest benefit of remote work - personal agency. Most remote workers I know (myself included) can for the most part work when we want to work. I can workout at 10am or go train BJJ at 9:30am. Instead of having to shape my day around work, I can shape work around my day. The personal agency aspect is the biggest benefit for me, and one that I would be hard pressed to ever give up at this point.
BTW, working from home should make it much easier to maintain the weight you want since healthy food options should be easier at home. WFH means I can throw some chicken and veggies on the grill at lunch for a healthy and cheap meal.
This is exactly why i will never work in an office again.
- I wake up when i want (thou without fail earlier then when i had a commute to dread)
- i can make a nice coffee/breakfast while getting some work done
- i work out every day, sometimes multiple times because i can pop to a class by my home whenever i want
- i often take days off to climb or snowboard/shift my work into the evening
- seeing friends is easier than ever as i can be social on their schedule
- i don't always take vacation to travel and explore as i can work from anywhere
- assuming a generously short commute of 30 min plus 15 min to get ready/unpack on either end thats at least 1.5 hours a day back to do whatever i want withI am the OP on this thread, and I totally agree with you (and almost everyone else who has replied).
There are massive perks to working remotely and I will never (hopefully), ever have to work in an office and commute again.
You have to be extremely disciplined, and have a company that knows how to set requirements properly.
If you have that, and you know exactly what needs to be done, and when it needs to be done by, then you are set.
Do it, and then do whatever else you want. Wake up whenever, take a 3 hour lunch break, it doesn't matter.
I worked 4 hours this Sunday AM because I had nothing else to do and I wanted to get progress done on my current task.
This is the proper way to work, especially so for software engineers, where everything can be done 100% the same remotely as it can be done in an office.
There are massive perks to working remotely and I will never (hopefully), ever have to work in an office and commute again.
You have to be extremely disciplined, and have a company that knows how to set requirements properly.
If you have that, and you know exactly what needs to be done, and when it needs to be done by, then you are set.
Do it, and then do whatever else you want. Wake up whenever, take a 3 hour lunch break, it doesn't matter.
I worked 4 hours this Sunday AM because I had nothing else to do and I wanted to get progress done on my current task.
This is the proper way to work, especially so for software engineers, where everything can be done 100% the same remotely as it can be done in an office.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but you can get these benefits from a FAANG-type company (though like you said, presuming a short commute). I'm personally planning to do working holidays in other countries every so often.
I’m not sure I’d want to work for a FAANG company thou.. and honestly no commute is the best, 5% or more of my day back, every work day? Yes please
And that's obviously your choice. I personally chose this path since I'm at the beginning of my career - maybe I'll give remote working a shot one day! However, nothing seems worse to me right now than mixing home and work life. Physically separating them gives me a mental barrier between them.
BTW, commutes aren't 'fun', but it gives me a chance to read/reply to my emails, plan my day, or do some reading, so on balance I do save non-negligible time.
BTW, commutes aren't 'fun', but it gives me a chance to read/reply to my emails, plan my day, or do some reading, so on balance I do save non-negligible time.
I deeply agree, but dynamic scheduling can have a strong negative affect of causing you to always stay in "work-mode". If I spend my mornings doing errands, cooking, or hitting the gym, I may end up working well into the evening up to the point just before I fall asleep. Or more likely, I shave hours from my "work-week" working about 6 hours a day, and find myself working throughout the weekend without any "mental rest".
I think humans have always struggled with finding ways to be happy in whatever circumstances they are provided, and remote work and the new global economy are going to force us (through some struggle) to figure out the best ways for ourselves to get on.
Ultimately as I mention in my original post it's about self-discipline and structure to do what you know will make you happy, but strangely that can be pretty hard.
I think humans have always struggled with finding ways to be happy in whatever circumstances they are provided, and remote work and the new global economy are going to force us (through some struggle) to figure out the best ways for ourselves to get on.
Ultimately as I mention in my original post it's about self-discipline and structure to do what you know will make you happy, but strangely that can be pretty hard.
The only real piece of advice I have for changing those things is committing to it. Losing weight is a good place to start, it has easily observable results and you can go at your own pace. I lost 20kg in 6mo when I started travelling, it was my first "change my life" goal and it made it a lot easier to start on other things that I hoped would be beneficial for me long-term - like finally starting on getting my teeth fixed despite my fear of dentists.
Finding the first win helps a ton. :)
Finding the first win helps a ton. :)
You're not alone here. Pretty much the same boat. USA-ian in a different country working remotely. Going on ~5 years now.
I can definitely echo the sentiments about gaining weight, working out, cooking, and depression and anxiety. I've got a grasp on the issues, and I could probably "make it work" for a while longer, but I'm old enough and at a point in my career where "make it work" is a lazy cop-out; I can afford to push for "good" or even "great", and feel like I should. But long term remote work just kills inertia.
I can definitely echo the sentiments about gaining weight, working out, cooking, and depression and anxiety. I've got a grasp on the issues, and I could probably "make it work" for a while longer, but I'm old enough and at a point in my career where "make it work" is a lazy cop-out; I can afford to push for "good" or even "great", and feel like I should. But long term remote work just kills inertia.
Working out: If possible I highly advise finding a workout partner. I lift weights with a (now-ex) co-worker, and it makes the workout significantly more enjoyable, and provides motivation to keep me going, even on days he can't make it (don't want to fall behind!).
Alternatively, consider a class. A dance class can be great for both 1 & 7 (note: don't be that guy who hits on every woman in your class, no one likes that guy), but it could be anything, martial arts, gymnastics/ninja warrior, racketball, etc.
Alternatively, consider a class. A dance class can be great for both 1 & 7 (note: don't be that guy who hits on every woman in your class, no one likes that guy), but it could be anything, martial arts, gymnastics/ninja warrior, racketball, etc.
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> I hate doing a healthy thing. I don't want to do it. But when I do, I feel momentously better afterwards.
Ah yes, that's familiar.
Ah yes, that's familiar.
Choose some hobbies and find some local community supporting them. Engage in lessons around them, or offer lessons yourself. It doesn't matter where, but do not wait for things to happen, make them happen.
While not always considered a hobby, I think social groups are forming around group exercise more often now. It's healthy, you get a little shared suffering in, and you meet a whole cross section of your community you may not meet otherwise.
I'd love to see more around helping people choose hobbies. My problem is finding ones I can sink my teeth into and be passionate about. But coming across those is finding a needle in a haystack.
Let me attempt to draw you a pyramid of home location needs:
5. Political situation - not a warzone? Not under sharia? Very democratic, or key to world issues you consider important?
4. Climate - no tundra/sahara? Would you benefit from living near the sea?
3. Food - is the local food edible? Is the local food cheap, including the restaurants? Or is it just very good?
2. Access to nature - do you want to try mountain ranges? Forests? A kind of people you like having around? If I feel disconnected from the city, I just use the public utilities more: coffee, beer, parks and benches for reading on. Not quite collecting mushrooms in the forest but I'm getting there.
1. Culture and language - any cultures you want to learn about? New languages? What would bring your personal and professional development in harmony?
Good luck!
P.S.: The Netherlands are decent. Everything is very "duidelijk", clear, and direct. People don't mind speaking English and speak it well. Weather is mild, can be a bit rainy but not half as bad as Britain. Housing aplenty for a programmer's salary. Consider visiting for a week or so if it peaks your interest.
5. Political situation - not a warzone? Not under sharia? Very democratic, or key to world issues you consider important?
4. Climate - no tundra/sahara? Would you benefit from living near the sea?
3. Food - is the local food edible? Is the local food cheap, including the restaurants? Or is it just very good?
2. Access to nature - do you want to try mountain ranges? Forests? A kind of people you like having around? If I feel disconnected from the city, I just use the public utilities more: coffee, beer, parks and benches for reading on. Not quite collecting mushrooms in the forest but I'm getting there.
1. Culture and language - any cultures you want to learn about? New languages? What would bring your personal and professional development in harmony?
Good luck!
P.S.: The Netherlands are decent. Everything is very "duidelijk", clear, and direct. People don't mind speaking English and speak it well. Weather is mild, can be a bit rainy but not half as bad as Britain. Housing aplenty for a programmer's salary. Consider visiting for a week or so if it peaks your interest.
Come live in Tasmania. We double-tick the top 4 on that list imho
Tried to live in the Oz after a working holiday visa! None of you all wanted to sponsor me -- and I had professional creds. Applied everywhere too.
AWS/Amazon Australia still send me recruiting emails occasionally.
AWS/Amazon Australia still send me recruiting emails occasionally.
I've been in Tasmanian for 6 years now, without a doubt the best place I've lived in, of the handful of places I've lived in Australia.
Contact email in my profile.
Contact email in my profile.
> I can live wherever I want, but I don't know where I want to live! I can even move to Europe as I am a dual US/Irish citizen, but I don't know where I would want to go in Europe!
I'm in a very similar situation.
I can work from basically anywhere. For the first year of fully remote work, I moved all over my country. During the second year, I went abroad and spend 3ish months in several nearby countries.
Now I'm entering year 3 and I'm miserable. Having freedom to live anywhere makes the place I choose feel like it's "wrong" in some way.
I'm in a very similar situation.
I can work from basically anywhere. For the first year of fully remote work, I moved all over my country. During the second year, I went abroad and spend 3ish months in several nearby countries.
Now I'm entering year 3 and I'm miserable. Having freedom to live anywhere makes the place I choose feel like it's "wrong" in some way.
Same. It was glorious for 2 years. Now going on ~5 years remote it's lonely and isolating. I can go anywhere... but where?
If available, I strongly urge you to find a local coworking center that focuses on community (ie. not WeWork or a similar executive office relabeled as coworking). Try poking around on https://coworking.org/visa or https://wiki.coworking.org/w/page/29303049/Directory.
I've been full-time remote for my entire software development career and have happily taken advantage of it for occasional travels and such, but for the most part live in one place and love the community that I've plugged into. Finding a place where I'm surrounded every workday by people that I get along with rather than sitting at home with my dog and my computer has been totally integral to that.
I've been full-time remote for my entire software development career and have happily taken advantage of it for occasional travels and such, but for the most part live in one place and love the community that I've plugged into. Finding a place where I'm surrounded every workday by people that I get along with rather than sitting at home with my dog and my computer has been totally integral to that.
Wait, a coworking center is a place you share with people who aren't your actual coworkers because you wanted to work remotely? Man, this new economy is out of sync.
I get that you're being flippant, but yeah, it does sound a little strange at first blush: work remotely, but without working from home?
The secret is that spending all your time alone actually sucks for a lot of people (and for those whom it doesn't, great! Working from home may serve you well).
It so happens that coworking strikes a good balance for many of us. My location and that of my employer are fully decoupled, and my coworkers don't have any overlapping office politics. When I change jobs, I don't stop seeing my friends. It's pretty ideal.
The secret is that spending all your time alone actually sucks for a lot of people (and for those whom it doesn't, great! Working from home may serve you well).
It so happens that coworking strikes a good balance for many of us. My location and that of my employer are fully decoupled, and my coworkers don't have any overlapping office politics. When I change jobs, I don't stop seeing my friends. It's pretty ideal.
I would love to move to an area where I can afford a proper piece of land.
The chances to find modern and interesting companies there is very unrealistic.
Put there an co-working office and there will be fast internet and social noise.
The chances to find modern and interesting companies there is very unrealistic.
Put there an co-working office and there will be fast internet and social noise.
I've been traveling a lot lately to figure out whether I'd want to move. Currently in Denmark which is great in all sorts of ways except the weather. I really hope I can move to South Europe at some point.
Unfortunately I don't work remote, but if I did, I'd just cancel my apartment lease, put my things in storage and travel around the world and live out of hotels for a year to find out what I want.
Unfortunately I don't work remote, but if I did, I'd just cancel my apartment lease, put my things in storage and travel around the world and live out of hotels for a year to find out what I want.
I tried this but it didn't work for me. was very lonely. travel gets old quick for me. The 7th church and 14th museum is just not that interesting. Traveling once in a while works better for me.
I also didn't find out what I want.
Everyone is different so I hope it works for you.
I also didn't find out what I want.
Everyone is different so I hope it works for you.
I started remote-working in 2016 and, for the first year, I pretty much did what you're saying. After moving around, I settled back in London (I'm not originally from the UK) for its professional environment. Working remotely makes it difficult to maintain professional network, but that gets easier if you live in a busy city -- frequent events and opportunities to network, but more importantly, a higher density of people working in your field. I still spend quite a bit of time outside of the UK (especially in the winter months), but as a "home" or HQ, I'll still pick the busier city. It's also not that bad when you don't need to commute and you find a neighbourhood with enough of a community culture. I really don't get as stressed as I used to be when I had to take the tube every weekday.
Man, so much of what you write resonates with me, and quite much matches some of my current questions or ponderings.
I would love to be able to meet a few people in similar situations around a bonfire, and chat like friends. Perhaps we'd come away with some insights; otherwise, we'd have at least enjoyed the company of a few new friends and some warm fire light.
I would love to be able to meet a few people in similar situations around a bonfire, and chat like friends. Perhaps we'd come away with some insights; otherwise, we'd have at least enjoyed the company of a few new friends and some warm fire light.
> I can live wherever I want, but I don't know where I want to live!
May I suggest picking up a outdoor hobby and living near a place that enables it.
Since winter is coming up. How about skiing and colorado. I promise you mountains will lift your sprits up, life problems seem so meaningless in mighty mountains.
May I suggest picking up a outdoor hobby and living near a place that enables it.
Since winter is coming up. How about skiing and colorado. I promise you mountains will lift your sprits up, life problems seem so meaningless in mighty mountains.
> May I suggest picking up a outdoor hobby and living near a place that enables it.
OP here ... I used to be a competitive snowboarder, but that was many years ago.
Now I am pretty out of shape from sitting in front of computers for decades, but that's my own fault for not taking care of myself. It is funny you mention this though, because I currently live about 20 minutes from a ski resort and was thinking about a season pass to get back into it.
OP here ... I used to be a competitive snowboarder, but that was many years ago.
Now I am pretty out of shape from sitting in front of computers for decades, but that's my own fault for not taking care of myself. It is funny you mention this though, because I currently live about 20 minutes from a ski resort and was thinking about a season pass to get back into it.
Me too, having moved half way across Canada to get a bit of a quieter home, far from where cost of living was spiralling out of control. (Vancouver BC - and it is for everyone there, pretty much).
Oh I have a family and have set up house, and that helps a lot. I'm still finding community and roots and trying to remember what I like doing when not working .. but I already know I like working with hands so that helps direct me some already. so I'm slowly teaching child sewing (as I slowly remember how to, myself).
Oh I have a family and have set up house, and that helps a lot. I'm still finding community and roots and trying to remember what I like doing when not working .. but I already know I like working with hands so that helps direct me some already. so I'm slowly teaching child sewing (as I slowly remember how to, myself).
Try The Netherlands. Great infrastructure, relaxed people, OK'ish weather, many many innovative IT companies, beautiful nature as well as cities.
You gotta “make” home. You don’t feel it out somewhere.
Have you ever considered that if you move to some less developed parts of EU, while retaining your salary (and likely reducing taxes), you can basically retire in several years? This is something most people in the world would dream of.
The ideal remote work situation to me would revolve around the ability to travel, want to go to Hawaii for two weeks? No big deal. People who talk about using a remote job to move to X city seem a bit detached from reality in my opinion.
As someone who has this flexibility, it's expensive and not that fun to go work in a hotel in a strange city for a couple weeks. I'd rather have a week off to ignore work and immerse myself
I've done this, and it isn't great. It's not quite the "vacation" type experience you'd think it is.
You still have to do work. So yes, you can fly to Hawaii for two weeks, pay for flights, hotel bills, meals, none of which are reimbursed because these are not corporate expenses we're talking about.
And then you stay in the hotel or somewhere else plugged in for a long time to do the actual work they are paying you for.
And then maybe go do something in Hawaii for a few hours.
You still have to do work. So yes, you can fly to Hawaii for two weeks, pay for flights, hotel bills, meals, none of which are reimbursed because these are not corporate expenses we're talking about.
And then you stay in the hotel or somewhere else plugged in for a long time to do the actual work they are paying you for.
And then maybe go do something in Hawaii for a few hours.
This hasn't been my experience. You just need something worthwhile to do. I love to surf and play traditional Irish music. So I took a month long trip alone to Ireland in the winter time / off season. Spent every day surfing, cooking, playing music in the pubs, and working. I had a blast. Figure out how to get the most out of someplace and go somewhere that's meaningful to you. Post up in one spot that's quiet and where you can focus and you'll likely have a good time.
shrug each to their own, i really enjoy going to another city and grabbing an airbnb for a couple weeks. Work at coffee shops overlooking the ocean, grab lunch somewhere, explore some sites, checkout hawaii, then get some work done in the evening.
It's definitely not the same experience off taking a week off, which i also enjoy but usually reserve for camping/backcountry trips.
It's definitely not the same experience off taking a week off, which i also enjoy but usually reserve for camping/backcountry trips.
Working while traveling is not for everyone though. Remote can mean many different things.
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Article conflates digital nomadism with remote working in general.
Remote work allows you to work from a space you control, eliminate commute and allows you to be able to walk around to clear your head without feeling guilty for not being in your seat.
You could use it to travel, but I figure that would be a harder lifestyle and is not synonymous with “remote work”.
The author did try working from home but the damage to his mental health had been done I guess. I have the benefit of using IRC for the majority of my social interaction for the better part of my life. I guess the author is missing face-to-face contact already by that point though.
Also, I did something similar to what the author did, took a one way flight to Helsinki from my home town Coventry in the UK.
No friends, no family, no support structure. Only the promise of a job. It was some of the best time in my life. I was able to live as I wanted to live and present myself as me without any baggage holding me back. It was wonderful.
Although, I did make more of an effort to really meet people- I went to pubs in Helsinki and spoke to locals and asked about their history and language and despite what you hear about the Finns; the ones I met were truly very friendly.
All I’m saying is that: “your experience may vary”
Remote work allows you to work from a space you control, eliminate commute and allows you to be able to walk around to clear your head without feeling guilty for not being in your seat.
You could use it to travel, but I figure that would be a harder lifestyle and is not synonymous with “remote work”.
The author did try working from home but the damage to his mental health had been done I guess. I have the benefit of using IRC for the majority of my social interaction for the better part of my life. I guess the author is missing face-to-face contact already by that point though.
Also, I did something similar to what the author did, took a one way flight to Helsinki from my home town Coventry in the UK.
No friends, no family, no support structure. Only the promise of a job. It was some of the best time in my life. I was able to live as I wanted to live and present myself as me without any baggage holding me back. It was wonderful.
Although, I did make more of an effort to really meet people- I went to pubs in Helsinki and spoke to locals and asked about their history and language and despite what you hear about the Finns; the ones I met were truly very friendly.
All I’m saying is that: “your experience may vary”
Agreed re conflating. I predominantly work from home, out of a custom built office in the corner of my garden. I tend to get up early and spend a few hours goofing around with the family before starting work. I take short breaks throughout the day to play with my son, eat lunch with my wife or go for a stroll. I also tend to go in the company's office on average once a week to get my dose of water cooler chats and group pizzas. This setup is a near-perfect fit for me in terms of productivity, work-life balance and mental health.
I absolutely agree with you on this.
When I had an office as a graduate student and then consultant, adjunct faculty, and other positions, I was almost never in my office.
I simply could not focus on work there the same way as elsewhere. I'm a highly social extrovert and in order to get things done that don't involve directly interacting with people, I "introvert myself". If someone comes to chat with me they snap me out of that mode and it's almost impossible for me to get back in.
I find libraries, coffee shops, empty offices to be the best places for me.
But remote != digital nomadism despite the 2 being able to go together.
When I had an office as a graduate student and then consultant, adjunct faculty, and other positions, I was almost never in my office.
I simply could not focus on work there the same way as elsewhere. I'm a highly social extrovert and in order to get things done that don't involve directly interacting with people, I "introvert myself". If someone comes to chat with me they snap me out of that mode and it's almost impossible for me to get back in.
I find libraries, coffee shops, empty offices to be the best places for me.
But remote != digital nomadism despite the 2 being able to go together.
> Article conflates digital nomadism with remote working in general.
Only a small part in the beginning of the article is concerned with digital nomadism. Most of the article is about working from home, and the general effects of isolation.
Only a small part in the beginning of the article is concerned with digital nomadism. Most of the article is about working from home, and the general effects of isolation.
Only the first few paragraphs talk about digital nomadism, after that he says
"The obvious alternative to traveling the world while working, is working from home. But that can be equally isolating in its own way." after which most of the article is about regular remote working
It's very possible to become isolated working remotely even in a familiar city, especially for introverted people. It's far easier to say "hey let's grab drinks after work" when I'd need to commute home from the office vs. when I'm already at home, with Netflix and Seamless mere inches away... and this becomes a very slippery slope. A week can go by with limited human interaction. And that's rarely a good thing.
As others have said, in this thread, there are a lot of mixed issues in this article.
Living a nomad/traveling lifestyle =! remote work. Loads of people remote-work from home, but change nothing else in their lifestyle.
I've been working remotely my entire life. 30+ years now. One thing that is key, is looking at the blue sky. Being outside occasionally.
You will note that the article talks about work/life balance, about working a lot, working long hours. And after months and months, become more and more depressed.
What I suspect is happening is, winter! Shorter days! With shorter days, it is harder and harder to find sunlight when you just happen to wander outside. In the summer, at least where I am, daylight lives from 4am to 10pm. I doesn't matter when I wake up, or when I go to sleep.. if I wander out just once, there's almost always light.
Further, there's a much better chance of good weather. In the winter, if it isn't night, it's often cloudy, and therefore darker.
Unless you work away from all windows, this affects the type of light, even when working inside.
On top of all that, in the winter it is more often unpleasant. You think with glee, it's cool/cold, raining/snowing, and I work remote! I don't have to go out into that! Yet, this is a trap, for going out in that is key to your health... just for the light!
My point in all of the above is -- when you work on site, you have to go outside, and transit outside, to and from work. This gets in that vital light, even often in the winter.
It's about the light, it's about blue light from a blue sky, it's about being outside.
That's what 30+ years of remote work has taught me.
Living a nomad/traveling lifestyle =! remote work. Loads of people remote-work from home, but change nothing else in their lifestyle.
I've been working remotely my entire life. 30+ years now. One thing that is key, is looking at the blue sky. Being outside occasionally.
You will note that the article talks about work/life balance, about working a lot, working long hours. And after months and months, become more and more depressed.
What I suspect is happening is, winter! Shorter days! With shorter days, it is harder and harder to find sunlight when you just happen to wander outside. In the summer, at least where I am, daylight lives from 4am to 10pm. I doesn't matter when I wake up, or when I go to sleep.. if I wander out just once, there's almost always light.
Further, there's a much better chance of good weather. In the winter, if it isn't night, it's often cloudy, and therefore darker.
Unless you work away from all windows, this affects the type of light, even when working inside.
On top of all that, in the winter it is more often unpleasant. You think with glee, it's cool/cold, raining/snowing, and I work remote! I don't have to go out into that! Yet, this is a trap, for going out in that is key to your health... just for the light!
My point in all of the above is -- when you work on site, you have to go outside, and transit outside, to and from work. This gets in that vital light, even often in the winter.
It's about the light, it's about blue light from a blue sky, it's about being outside.
That's what 30+ years of remote work has taught me.
Speaking as an employment _provider_ I fully agree nomad != remote. I'm actually hesitant to employ nomads if they are likely to move without warning to time zones that aren't convenient for the rest of the team.
For example, one of the things that makes distributed teams work is to have a small number of very stable meeting times that remain invariant for long periods of time. The reason is that people need to structure their lives (e.g., dinner with family) and if you change things capriciously it affects relationships with families or other things in their personal lives. Having team members suddenly move and then want meeting times changed for everyone is a real non-starter for me.
For example, one of the things that makes distributed teams work is to have a small number of very stable meeting times that remain invariant for long periods of time. The reason is that people need to structure their lives (e.g., dinner with family) and if you change things capriciously it affects relationships with families or other things in their personal lives. Having team members suddenly move and then want meeting times changed for everyone is a real non-starter for me.
I have been on remote teams with 2 different types of coordination.
Meeting coordinated, which is usually centered around 1 or 2 weekly meetings when status updates and some amount of discussion of planning occurs. This model works best when a large portion of the team is on the same timezone or there is a physical office somewhere but isn't ideal for nomads or people that are permanently located in an inconvenient timezone. These meetings often come at a very high cost so if someone isn't getting value out of them then they don't feel great about them usually.
The other is async/adhoc coordinated that mostly does synchronisation and planning through async means like chat, email and issue tracking. This I found works way better for travellers/nomads and people that generally don't need or want structured meetings. Especially if you mostly work on long tasks and the vast majority of your updates are "still doing the thing". If you couple this with adhoc/on-demand meetings where you grab small portions of the team to talk about smaller scoped things I find it works really well. Managers (well less good ones) in particular are less of a fan of this model because instead of having well defined sync points they need to be continually on top of how things are changing.
Both have trade-offs, I find the second one works way better but is much rarer. I experienced my most productive time as an engineer working under such a model.
Meeting coordinated, which is usually centered around 1 or 2 weekly meetings when status updates and some amount of discussion of planning occurs. This model works best when a large portion of the team is on the same timezone or there is a physical office somewhere but isn't ideal for nomads or people that are permanently located in an inconvenient timezone. These meetings often come at a very high cost so if someone isn't getting value out of them then they don't feel great about them usually.
The other is async/adhoc coordinated that mostly does synchronisation and planning through async means like chat, email and issue tracking. This I found works way better for travellers/nomads and people that generally don't need or want structured meetings. Especially if you mostly work on long tasks and the vast majority of your updates are "still doing the thing". If you couple this with adhoc/on-demand meetings where you grab small portions of the team to talk about smaller scoped things I find it works really well. Managers (well less good ones) in particular are less of a fan of this model because instead of having well defined sync points they need to be continually on top of how things are changing.
Both have trade-offs, I find the second one works way better but is much rarer. I experienced my most productive time as an engineer working under such a model.
I'm definitely open to getting better at this so I'm glad the second model worked for you.
I have run into practical problems with ad-hoc call when working across a lot of time zones (like 10 in our company). It's hard to slot in engineering ad-hoc meetings because the slots are limited to begin with and already used up with other things like talking to customers.
We definitely try to avoid burning people's time. Slack has been helpful for intermittent communication.
I have run into practical problems with ad-hoc call when working across a lot of time zones (like 10 in our company). It's hard to slot in engineering ad-hoc meetings because the slots are limited to begin with and already used up with other things like talking to customers.
We definitely try to avoid burning people's time. Slack has been helpful for intermittent communication.
My solution to getting out of the house and into the World is to go to the gym four days a week, in the middle of the day. So I effectively work a split shift. With my team dispersed globally and me being in the "middle" time zone, it's actually a benefit to the work itself. Plus it keeps me sane and somewhat healthy and guarantees at least a tiny bit of social interaction.
(I realize this has its own logistical challenges, but ten years into my current remote-work job it's making all the difference for me.)
[Edit] Also the gym is less crowded in the middle of the day, in case that part wasn't obvious.
(I realize this has its own logistical challenges, but ten years into my current remote-work job it's making all the difference for me.)
[Edit] Also the gym is less crowded in the middle of the day, in case that part wasn't obvious.
I worked remote for 3 years and I did midday gym visits. It helped.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. I've been remote the past several years, and have lived in apartments the entire time.
This fall was the first time I was able to find a suitable single family home for rent in my desired area. The house has a comfortable, fenced backyard with a large glass slider in the living room. One of the first things I have noticed while living here is how big of a difference it makes having access to that outside space. Being able to step outside, see the sky, take in some fresh air, and best of all to do it with relative privacy, has done wonders for my mental health.
I highly recommend a house, preferably with outdoor space, versus an apartment if you are a stay-at-home remote worker and have the means.
This fall was the first time I was able to find a suitable single family home for rent in my desired area. The house has a comfortable, fenced backyard with a large glass slider in the living room. One of the first things I have noticed while living here is how big of a difference it makes having access to that outside space. Being able to step outside, see the sky, take in some fresh air, and best of all to do it with relative privacy, has done wonders for my mental health.
I highly recommend a house, preferably with outdoor space, versus an apartment if you are a stay-at-home remote worker and have the means.
I go out a few times per week by bike for food, stretching exercises every day, and Sundays it's 5h of bike in the hills, that's the vitamin B, hormones and health catch-up for the week
Sometimes you have transit to the office but it’s underground. Not that it matters because it’s dark outside when you start and finish work anyway.
I love working remotely, I dread the prison of the corporate offices and commuting hours a day. Probably nothing you can do can cut your carbon footprint as much as working remotely.
That said, I am over 40, with solid friedship relations built over decades, have kids, an ex-wife which is a friend, a younger nerdy but social girlfriend.
Basically, I don't need the work environment for social needs. But once upon a time, when I was younger, my life was the office, and my colleagues. School teaches you that you need an organization where you are physically present everyday to have social interactions, you start working with this mindset, probably in a different city, it takes a few years for you to realize that there's life outside work. And YOU WILL learn it after the first layoff in your life. So, if you are young, I'd recommend starting your life in a office, but never put all your eggs in the same basket. Look to know people outside your company, people that don't even do the same work as you do. Travel, do yoga classes, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, reading circles, whatever, but never believe that you need an office to meet your social needs. You'll need it for a time, it is good to bootstrap your life on relationship terms, heck, you can even do it for the rest of your life. But never, even for a minute, believe that you can't have a social life, friends, meet a significant other without an office.
That said, I am over 40, with solid friedship relations built over decades, have kids, an ex-wife which is a friend, a younger nerdy but social girlfriend.
Basically, I don't need the work environment for social needs. But once upon a time, when I was younger, my life was the office, and my colleagues. School teaches you that you need an organization where you are physically present everyday to have social interactions, you start working with this mindset, probably in a different city, it takes a few years for you to realize that there's life outside work. And YOU WILL learn it after the first layoff in your life. So, if you are young, I'd recommend starting your life in a office, but never put all your eggs in the same basket. Look to know people outside your company, people that don't even do the same work as you do. Travel, do yoga classes, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, reading circles, whatever, but never believe that you need an office to meet your social needs. You'll need it for a time, it is good to bootstrap your life on relationship terms, heck, you can even do it for the rest of your life. But never, even for a minute, believe that you can't have a social life, friends, meet a significant other without an office.
This same old tired story...
It turns out happiness takes lot of work. Having a healthy social life takes a lot of trying, failing, and some successes that you cherish.
Some people tragically take their co-workers as their friends and the office as their social environment. That's really dangerous. You need to go out there and try, be awkward, fight to make some close friends in the real world. Office drama and venting over a beer after work is not a social life. Also the office is not a dating pool. Being depressed that your office doesn't have any cute girls or boys... oh boy, I've seen it!
Isolation and depression is due to lacking social skill and not having the drive or insight to develop that skill.
Remote work is hardly related. It's related only because people take the office as their social scene and of course when they go remote they lost their entire social scene.
It turns out happiness takes lot of work. Having a healthy social life takes a lot of trying, failing, and some successes that you cherish.
Some people tragically take their co-workers as their friends and the office as their social environment. That's really dangerous. You need to go out there and try, be awkward, fight to make some close friends in the real world. Office drama and venting over a beer after work is not a social life. Also the office is not a dating pool. Being depressed that your office doesn't have any cute girls or boys... oh boy, I've seen it!
Isolation and depression is due to lacking social skill and not having the drive or insight to develop that skill.
Remote work is hardly related. It's related only because people take the office as their social scene and of course when they go remote they lost their entire social scene.
A lot of this comment isn’t born out in reality. Around 30% of marriages in the US are from people who met in the office, plenty of people make life long friends from people they met at work, etc.
I’m not saying that should be the primary place you look for friends or an SO, but plenty of people are successful doing it.
I’m not saying that should be the primary place you look for friends or an SO, but plenty of people are successful doing it.
It's true that a lot of it happens that way. It's not particularly healthy and has extreme side effects in situations like the one at hand (suddenly moving to full time remote) People should diversify their social life.
So I shouldn't become friends or lovers (when hierarchically/power dynamic appropriate) with people at work just because I might go full remote at some point in the future?
This becomes a bigger topic but if those people never had worked together they probably wouldn't have met and more over is that a initiated out of convenience or pressure of having to date or hang out with a co-corker because they are always around and you have to see them frequently or daily?
What happened to meeting people naturally outside of a forced setting?
What happened to meeting people naturally outside of a forced setting?
I mean if you are somewhere 1/3 of the whole day you naturally get to know the people you are around everyday. As well as the fact that you already have a filter of commonality, everyone I work with already has been filtered to live in the same town, at the same company and is also a fellow engineer. No one's harassing someone into dating them due to being around them a lot and if they did that sounds like some type of #metoo situation and probably would get you fired pretty quickly nowadays. If you don't want to date a coworker you are free to not date them but I don't see how, for example my coworkers that just got married have an inferior relationship because they didn't meet 'naturally'. In fact I would consider getting to know someone by talking to them everyday one of the most natural forms vs meeting someone online.
Bonding with people who you work together with for a common goal seems like the most natural thing in the world to me.
And I've never been "forced" to take or stay at a particular job.
And I've never been "forced" to take or stay at a particular job.
> Isolation and depression is due to lacking social skill and not having the drive or insight to develop that skill.
You are oversimplifying the issue. Please find some insight that there's more nuance here.
You are oversimplifying the issue. Please find some insight that there's more nuance here.
I'm referring to the situation at hand: going remote and finding oneself isolated and depressed. That is, one felt socialized enough in the office but now that they're remote they're isolated and finding the "being remote" as the cause. This clearly means that the core source of socialization (and therefore non-isolation) is that the social group was at the office.
People who can develop relationships in a variety of contexts don't feel alone and depressed when remote. There may be other issues; time zone problems, being left out of the loop at work etc., from companies that are not well set up for it. But those are not the issues at hand.
People who can develop relationships in a variety of contexts don't feel alone and depressed when remote. There may be other issues; time zone problems, being left out of the loop at work etc., from companies that are not well set up for it. But those are not the issues at hand.
I don't mean the issues part, but the "if you have drive and information you can fix social skills". If only it was that easy. Specifically, isolation and lack of motivation are also caused by depression. You're basically recommending "not having depression would really help for your depression".
I tried to avoid clinical depression... If we're talking clinical depression I want to exclude myself from this conversation because I'm not an expert.
I'm talking about social laziness. Few people have the guts to go introduce themselves to a stranger (in an appropriate context of course) and strike a conversation and try to make a friend. At the office this is "built in" and you get a level of socialization for free. So many people rely on these perks and leave it at that. Tons of firsthand observation here.
I'm talking about social laziness. Few people have the guts to go introduce themselves to a stranger (in an appropriate context of course) and strike a conversation and try to make a friend. At the office this is "built in" and you get a level of socialization for free. So many people rely on these perks and leave it at that. Tons of firsthand observation here.
Friendships form in places where you have continuous interactions with people over some common theme... school, soccer, pottery class, church, meetup and... you guessed it, work. It's perfectly normal to connect with people you like at work and create long lasting friendships. There is no rule that states your common ground and interest with people at work has to be work related.
ha, I need to get enough HN points so I can downvote comments like this.
Well said. Very well said.
I have decades worth of remote work experience. I don't think the problem is social isolation, as others point out that's another issue, you can experience isolation (alienation) regardless of your work situation.
But if you want to be more than a gear on a team, the main decision making and insight is often strictly between local workers, regardless of what gets said in meetings it's the water cooler or after work beers. If all the decision makers are in one place and you're not there, you're missing a lot of context. A few key in-person meetings as required goes a long way to mitigate this, but for organizations that see cost savings as a main benefit to remote workers this may be difficult to arrange.
But if you want to be more than a gear on a team, the main decision making and insight is often strictly between local workers, regardless of what gets said in meetings it's the water cooler or after work beers. If all the decision makers are in one place and you're not there, you're missing a lot of context. A few key in-person meetings as required goes a long way to mitigate this, but for organizations that see cost savings as a main benefit to remote workers this may be difficult to arrange.
I totally agree with you. I like all-remote teams. I’m wary of teams that are part remote and part collocated, especially when the leaders are part of Team Collocated and I’m not.
I did work remotely for around 5 years and I loved it.
No surprise to me but most people need a village to be happy. That means having neighbours, familiar strangers, a regular routine and social bonds between all of those things. Remote work doesn't isolate you from the village.
I think it should be the predominant way of working. It can encourage villages and less commutes. When I worked remotely I found an office in a co-working space. I made friends with other people who worked in that space. I could walk, bike, or take public transit to the space. I had a mix of friends, acquaintances, familiar strangers, and strangers throughout my day.
It's better for the environment and for people.
I also know people who sail around the world and live a nomadic lifestyle. They all face the same difficulties with mental health: they need a village. The ones who manage to stick it out build a village around their lifestyle. However it's always a risk and one that should be planned for.
No surprise to me but most people need a village to be happy. That means having neighbours, familiar strangers, a regular routine and social bonds between all of those things. Remote work doesn't isolate you from the village.
I think it should be the predominant way of working. It can encourage villages and less commutes. When I worked remotely I found an office in a co-working space. I made friends with other people who worked in that space. I could walk, bike, or take public transit to the space. I had a mix of friends, acquaintances, familiar strangers, and strangers throughout my day.
It's better for the environment and for people.
I also know people who sail around the world and live a nomadic lifestyle. They all face the same difficulties with mental health: they need a village. The ones who manage to stick it out build a village around their lifestyle. However it's always a risk and one that should be planned for.
I started a company in 2008 where all the founders were remote. We didn’t force location on anyone but gradually we settled on three offices where gatherings took place and people who were local would check in. Eventually the company developed a unique office culture in each and you generally identified as belonging to one or the other. I liked the way it developed because we didn’t enforce a set of rules, we let people be adults. The ones you knew that were more preoccupied with marathon training rather than getting things done worked their way out of the company pretty quickly anyway — usually they were so detached, forcing them into an office wouldn’t have mattered. As for me, I lean remote especially when I need to stay focused. But I do like the ability to see a new office and be a part of a larger in-person community.
I like your village point...but of the many remote workers I know, I know none that have this.
This article isn't about remote work, but being a social hermit.
In my experience, if you have difficulty making and sustaining friendships without the heightened social context of a dorm floor/office water cooler, then you're going to wind up experiencing a bit of cabin fever when you are removed from those environments.
I had to make conscious efforts to go out, make friends and do things outside work when I moved away and lived on my own. You're responsible for your own mental health, not your company.
In my experience, if you have difficulty making and sustaining friendships without the heightened social context of a dorm floor/office water cooler, then you're going to wind up experiencing a bit of cabin fever when you are removed from those environments.
I had to make conscious efforts to go out, make friends and do things outside work when I moved away and lived on my own. You're responsible for your own mental health, not your company.
I have no trouble making and sustaining friendships with or without an office, in fact only one of my (former) co-workers is an actual friend.
Regardless, something about the isolation of working from home for anything more than a day here or there is just too mentally harmful for me. A much lesser form of solitary confinement, I suppose. Even going out and doing things after work every single day is no cure. I've tried it on and off over the past decade, with and without a co-habitating girlfriend. With and without pets. I've tried working from coffee shops, working from parks, co-working spaces, etc.
For some it's not a matter of needing the office for friends, some people just need the office environment itself. Something about being there "in the shit" with your team, best I can tell, rings that mental bell.
Regardless, something about the isolation of working from home for anything more than a day here or there is just too mentally harmful for me. A much lesser form of solitary confinement, I suppose. Even going out and doing things after work every single day is no cure. I've tried it on and off over the past decade, with and without a co-habitating girlfriend. With and without pets. I've tried working from coffee shops, working from parks, co-working spaces, etc.
For some it's not a matter of needing the office for friends, some people just need the office environment itself. Something about being there "in the shit" with your team, best I can tell, rings that mental bell.
In an office, I can intersperse social contact with programming. And the socializing requires almost no effort, since there is more common ground (job, commute, lunch, etc)
At home, I'm isolated for 8-10 hours straight. By dinner time, I'm mentally exhausted, making it harder to drum up energy to go out and meet new people.
At home, I'm isolated for 8-10 hours straight. By dinner time, I'm mentally exhausted, making it harder to drum up energy to go out and meet new people.
> traveling remote workers
Whoa digital nomads by definition choose loneliness, whether they work or not.
As for the rest , i think the answer is pretty obvious: coworking apartment complexes similar to those dorm rooms but for adults. We need such spaces anyway , with the rise of people living alone and aging alone. It s time for cities to adapt to our needs rather than the reverse for once, because remote working is not going away. Its good for workers, good for business, good for the environment, good for competition, bad for visas and bad for rent seekers.
Whoa digital nomads by definition choose loneliness, whether they work or not.
As for the rest , i think the answer is pretty obvious: coworking apartment complexes similar to those dorm rooms but for adults. We need such spaces anyway , with the rise of people living alone and aging alone. It s time for cities to adapt to our needs rather than the reverse for once, because remote working is not going away. Its good for workers, good for business, good for the environment, good for competition, bad for visas and bad for rent seekers.
I lived in one of these in Seattle for a few months. The weird part is, nobody really used the communal areas. The facilities weren't amazing in the first place but I met 1 person in the building the entire time I lived there. We even had a shared kitchen I only saw someone make some Top Ramen on the stove top once.
i wouldn't want a shared kitchen or bathroom - besides why would anyone want to live in such cramped conditions if they work remotely. But i d like it if my building had a shared coworking space a cafeteria and perhaps other commercial perks (such as gym) to use frequently - preferably with other remote workers. I know it's possible to share each of these individually, but this happens effortlessly when many people in similar situations are in physical proximity with them.
No one chooses loneliness.
Define "loneliness".
"Alone" != "Lonely"
"Alone" != "Lonely"
That's exactly it; nobody chooses loneliness, though one can choose to be alone.
I've been working remotely for almost a decade, and never have I experienced, or had coworkers who experience the isolation and troubles that I'm starting to hear about. But I am now realizing that we also don't define ourselves by our work. We do have families, lives, friends, and hobbies. We are quite busy people with full lives, who happen to sit down for a chunk of each day and do our work.
Maybe that is the key - go figure out who you are, build up your life, and only then start working remotely.
Maybe that is the key - go figure out who you are, build up your life, and only then start working remotely.
This applies most if you're a single-ish young-ish person without a highly established personal life outside of work. IMO this is a good message to put out since that's a lot of the crowd being recruited for these positions. When you're in that spot in life you're trying to "figure it out", and the message that you'd be free of any ties to a physical office is pushed very romantically and can be very confusing for establishing an overall life for yourself. It's helpful to know the other side of the coin so young prospective employees can make the choice that's best for both employee and employer.
I saved up some money and quit my first programming job after a year and a half to freelance. I only had a vague idea of the work I wanted to do, but I wanted to have no master and I thought it would be my absolute best life.
Within two weeks I was deep into anxiety and depression. I tried to establish routines, tried working from a coffee shop, etc. None of it really helped. I was still fairly new to the city I lived in and didn't have many friends, and wasn't a social person by nature. I was incredibly isolated.
I started dating someone a few weeks later and that helped. I picked up some one-off contracts, built a website for a local music store, did some personal projects, etc. But still, after another six months I was back in a hole. I wasn't quite so isolated but I still crumbled under the pressure of not knowing what to do next, not being able to take a break from the working mentality even though I could barely bring myself to do any work at all. I ended up taking a desk job just to pull myself out of the spiral.
Economically I probably could have made that work as a source of income, but psychologically it was just unbearable.
Within two weeks I was deep into anxiety and depression. I tried to establish routines, tried working from a coffee shop, etc. None of it really helped. I was still fairly new to the city I lived in and didn't have many friends, and wasn't a social person by nature. I was incredibly isolated.
I started dating someone a few weeks later and that helped. I picked up some one-off contracts, built a website for a local music store, did some personal projects, etc. But still, after another six months I was back in a hole. I wasn't quite so isolated but I still crumbled under the pressure of not knowing what to do next, not being able to take a break from the working mentality even though I could barely bring myself to do any work at all. I ended up taking a desk job just to pull myself out of the spiral.
Economically I probably could have made that work as a source of income, but psychologically it was just unbearable.
As a remote worker myself, I agree with most of the points in the article. I lived on my own right out of school and it was a blessing and a curse. It forced me to go out and be social which brought me out of my comfort zone at first.
> I’ve never worked from a real office or even had a “real” job
I really think that a precursor to working remote should be working in an office. I always advise against younger workers to go remote early in their career. There's a huge benefit to being in the office when you're young and have much to learn in your field. Once you've been in the industry for a few years I think it's much easier to switch to a remote lifestyle.
As far as the loneliness of remote work...my 100% remote company is taking a slightly different approach to solve this problem. The more we spoke with other remote workers in coworking spaces, coffee shops, etc...the more we realized that people work in those spaces to get the feeling of human interaction, whether or not they actually talk to people while they're out working.
What we started doing is hosting these "Work Clubs" where we get 5-6 remote workers together at a table at a coffee shop and we all work together for a couple of hours. It's not a networking event, but more of a casual way to meet people while you get your work done. It gets you out of the house and around other people and we got such good feedback from other remote workers that we're looking to help others hold their own work clubs wherever they work.
We're currently hosting work clubs in San Francisco, San Diego, and Portland, and hoping to grow. If you're interested you can find out more at https://outofoffice.app/workclub/remote
> I’ve never worked from a real office or even had a “real” job
I really think that a precursor to working remote should be working in an office. I always advise against younger workers to go remote early in their career. There's a huge benefit to being in the office when you're young and have much to learn in your field. Once you've been in the industry for a few years I think it's much easier to switch to a remote lifestyle.
As far as the loneliness of remote work...my 100% remote company is taking a slightly different approach to solve this problem. The more we spoke with other remote workers in coworking spaces, coffee shops, etc...the more we realized that people work in those spaces to get the feeling of human interaction, whether or not they actually talk to people while they're out working.
What we started doing is hosting these "Work Clubs" where we get 5-6 remote workers together at a table at a coffee shop and we all work together for a couple of hours. It's not a networking event, but more of a casual way to meet people while you get your work done. It gets you out of the house and around other people and we got such good feedback from other remote workers that we're looking to help others hold their own work clubs wherever they work.
We're currently hosting work clubs in San Francisco, San Diego, and Portland, and hoping to grow. If you're interested you can find out more at https://outofoffice.app/workclub/remote
This shocked me:
"to encourage wellbeing: 40 days paid vacation per year: True disconnection is fundamental to help people de-stress and recharge."
Is this common elsewhere in the world? In the US, it Seems like 10 or 15 days is the norm, and maybe 20 after 5 years.
What do the FAANG+ companies offer?
Does the 2 months of vacation also contribute to that disconnected feeling, I wonder?
"to encourage wellbeing: 40 days paid vacation per year: True disconnection is fundamental to help people de-stress and recharge."
Is this common elsewhere in the world? In the US, it Seems like 10 or 15 days is the norm, and maybe 20 after 5 years.
What do the FAANG+ companies offer?
Does the 2 months of vacation also contribute to that disconnected feeling, I wonder?
30 days here in brazil per year. No theoretical limits on sick days as long as you're really sick, but after 15 days in the hospital, the government pays you instead of your company (at a progressively reduced scale, of course, if you make lots of money, it is just fair that the government should need to help you less than someone who makes minimum wages).
One thing which is important to clarify is that in Brazil, once you take your vacation, it gets "spent" during the whole period that you are off, including weekends and eventual holidays.
In Europe (or at least a good part of it) vacation is "spent" only on workdays, not weekends or holidays (which is fairer, you wouldn't be working on these days).
So in Sweden, where you get 25 days compared to Brazil's 30, you actually get roughly one week more vacation per year. This is not evident at a first glance just by comparing numbers.
In Europe (or at least a good part of it) vacation is "spent" only on workdays, not weekends or holidays (which is fairer, you wouldn't be working on these days).
So in Sweden, where you get 25 days compared to Brazil's 30, you actually get roughly one week more vacation per year. This is not evident at a first glance just by comparing numbers.
This is super strange. Does Brazil force people to take vacation contiguously? What prevents one from taking Monday-Friday off and then the next Monday-Friday off? What if you want to take Thursday and Friday off and then spend the weekend vacationing - how many vacation days does that take?
It "works" because, legally speaking, it's the employer who decides when you can take vacation. Apart from some edge cases, the employer has the option to give your full vacation in one go but it also has the option to give it to you in two different periods (at most). No period may be smaller than 10 days. They have to notify you of your vacation period at least 30 days in advance.
In practice it really depends where you work.
In some jobs you will have a lot of latitude, and the employer will let you freely choose and only veto it if it's really disruptive (like everybody else in the team leaving at the same time). This is what I had experienced, working in IT.
I suspect that in some lines of work, like the service industry, you might be totally out of luck and have zero choice on the matter.
In practice it really depends where you work.
In some jobs you will have a lot of latitude, and the employer will let you freely choose and only veto it if it's really disruptive (like everybody else in the team leaving at the same time). This is what I had experienced, working in IT.
I suspect that in some lines of work, like the service industry, you might be totally out of luck and have zero choice on the matter.
That makes a lot of sense - thanks for the explanation!
In Sweden we have 25 paid days off, and we get 30 days at my job (in addition to regular holiday days). On top of that we have a ridiculous number of parental leave days (if you have kids).
In the Netherlands some/many people work 40 hours on a 36 hour contract, resulting in almost 10 weeks of paid vacation as well. It's worth a lot to me.
Given that teachers with summer break I doubt it in itself. Although that level of generosity usually has a cost, perhaps logistical passed on or factored in.
Like expecting longer "on hours" or a bit lower pay in exchange for the benefits. Of course as always it could be circumstances which give it cheaper or "free" like if there are down times where there isn't much meaningful work available.
Like expecting longer "on hours" or a bit lower pay in exchange for the benefits. Of course as always it could be circumstances which give it cheaper or "free" like if there are down times where there isn't much meaningful work available.
UK here, I get 25 days of annual leave, plus another 4 mandatory days at Christmas and New Year, making a total of 29 days. I think 28 days is the legal minimum for a full-time employee, and it's very rare for companies to offer more than they have to.
(At a fortune 500 company)
I negotiated 20 days vacation starting (or one month). Plus, 5 days carry over. At 5 years that number increases to 30 days (or six weeks).
I also get 5 sick days and get 8 weeks paternity leave.
Honestly, I take probably 2 months off a year in two week increments.
I negotiated 20 days vacation starting (or one month). Plus, 5 days carry over. At 5 years that number increases to 30 days (or six weeks).
I also get 5 sick days and get 8 weeks paternity leave.
Honestly, I take probably 2 months off a year in two week increments.
I realize I got an above average offer, but as a new grad I'll be getting 25 days a year starting out, up to 30 days after 5 years with the company. Not a FAANG company but a tech company backed by a Fortune 500 company.
in Germany, you are entitled to 20 days paid leave anually by law, plus most companies throw another 5 to 10 days.
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I’ve noticed the key is lots of zoom one on ones. It’s so productive and fun, and you don’t feel lonely. Also, meditation helps a ton - it’s easy to feel lonely in a crowd if the inner experience is out of whack, regardless of the external situation. Shared whiteboarding software is also great.
Personally I have had a very different experience since I left to travel and work remotely a few years ago.
I was already working remotely and yes at the time I was struggling with depression and loneliness. Given what I have experienced since I don't think remote work was at all the cause of my problems which were much deeper seated.
Leaving all of that behind and living out of a suitcase changed a lot of my perspectives on what I valued in life. I was by no means obsessed with material possessions before but enforcing a life of minimalism brought me understanding of what things actually make my life better vs just cost money and take up space. I had to think more critically about how I want to spend my time each day as oftentimes I had limited time in each place and with each set of people I had been lucky enough to meet. This meant I pushed myself to go out and spend quality time doing things I enjoyed and with people I liked because by putting smaller finite timelines on things I was motivated to do them.
I still have friends I just don't see them in person as much. Often times people would be travelling through the region and I would simply pack up and go hang out with them - this was awesome and I have done it many times over the last couple of years. I treasure all of these memories and hanging out at a bar after work can never compare.
This lifestyle has been amazing for me and has allowed me to climb out of a very dark place personally. I still suffer from depression - I probably always will. However I think this lifestyle has offered me better tools to deal with it.
Things that are hard though:
- Timezones
- Building professional relationships
- Keeping in shape
- Jetlag
Those are constant battles but compared to my personal demons easily managed. :)
If anyone is thinking of taking the plunge I highly recommend it. You don't have much to lose, you can always go back home but it just could change your life.
I was already working remotely and yes at the time I was struggling with depression and loneliness. Given what I have experienced since I don't think remote work was at all the cause of my problems which were much deeper seated.
Leaving all of that behind and living out of a suitcase changed a lot of my perspectives on what I valued in life. I was by no means obsessed with material possessions before but enforcing a life of minimalism brought me understanding of what things actually make my life better vs just cost money and take up space. I had to think more critically about how I want to spend my time each day as oftentimes I had limited time in each place and with each set of people I had been lucky enough to meet. This meant I pushed myself to go out and spend quality time doing things I enjoyed and with people I liked because by putting smaller finite timelines on things I was motivated to do them.
I still have friends I just don't see them in person as much. Often times people would be travelling through the region and I would simply pack up and go hang out with them - this was awesome and I have done it many times over the last couple of years. I treasure all of these memories and hanging out at a bar after work can never compare.
This lifestyle has been amazing for me and has allowed me to climb out of a very dark place personally. I still suffer from depression - I probably always will. However I think this lifestyle has offered me better tools to deal with it.
Things that are hard though:
- Timezones
- Building professional relationships
- Keeping in shape
- Jetlag
Those are constant battles but compared to my personal demons easily managed. :)
If anyone is thinking of taking the plunge I highly recommend it. You don't have much to lose, you can always go back home but it just could change your life.
I wrote about my experience of moving away from a city in Sweden and moving to a small community[0].
And although the article focuses on digital nomad, I see the same problematic with the move we did as I both starting working remotely and moving away from my friends. Finding a social life, or "rooting down", is to me the most important thing for me. While I do talk with coworkers a bunch I do need to supplement it with social interactions outside of work.
[0]: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2019/10/18/we_moved_away_fr...
And although the article focuses on digital nomad, I see the same problematic with the move we did as I both starting working remotely and moving away from my friends. Finding a social life, or "rooting down", is to me the most important thing for me. While I do talk with coworkers a bunch I do need to supplement it with social interactions outside of work.
[0]: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2019/10/18/we_moved_away_fr...
I think a great antidote for this, specifically for people who are lonely, is to move into a multi bedroom apartment with 3+ other people or even find a coliving space. There are some of these on NYC and from my experience it's comparable to living in a dorm - which is the kind of healthy experience the author says he missed most. You get to meet and interact with a variety of people on a daily basis, some of whom could lead to deeper connections. Plus its cheaper than a studio or 1br apartment!!
When I was younger (~18 yo), I always dreamed of leaving my small central European country and moving to the States, Canada, or somewhere in Australia. I couldn't imagine staying at home. It simply wasn't exciting enough and I didn't see my future here.
My buddy and I used to hype ourselves up and talk about our future plans, which country we'd move to, in which ways we'd survive (our brightest idea at the time was driving cabs in Sydney, haha).
A couple of years later we started doing web development and got our first gigs. Now that we had some cash in our hands, we decided to — for a start — move to Berlin.
My buddy moved right away and got a job in local startup. I followed him a month later and had a remote US based client. I arrived in January. It was quite cold, often raining, and all around kind of depressing. I didn't know anyone and lived in a small apartment with a bunch of hippy roommates I didn't vibe with. Since I worked remotely I didn't have any coworkers to hang out with. I ended up renting an overpriced desk in a hipster co-working place where everyone kept to themselves and pretended to work. After a month I started getting depressed and it affected my work, so I bought a one-way ticket and moved back to my home country.
Shortly after moving back, I finally found my flow. I co-created a passion project with another friend (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8547351), started increasing my contracting rates, found higher quality clients, etc. I rented a small apartment in the city centre, hung out with friends and family, and basically loved my life (still do!). When I wanted some excitement and a change of scenery, I would jump on a plane and do a road trip abroad.
My buddy who didn't work remotely stayed in Berlin, made friends with some of his co-workers, expanded his social circle, and all in all had a great time. He then proceeded to get married, moved to San Francisco, worked at a FAANG-like corp, got divorced, and in the end moved back to the home country as well. Not (entirely) because of the divorce, but because he craved real friendship which he couldn't find in SF.
I guess the point of this story is... Being lonely sucks and having friends and family close is important? Yeah.
My buddy and I used to hype ourselves up and talk about our future plans, which country we'd move to, in which ways we'd survive (our brightest idea at the time was driving cabs in Sydney, haha).
A couple of years later we started doing web development and got our first gigs. Now that we had some cash in our hands, we decided to — for a start — move to Berlin.
My buddy moved right away and got a job in local startup. I followed him a month later and had a remote US based client. I arrived in January. It was quite cold, often raining, and all around kind of depressing. I didn't know anyone and lived in a small apartment with a bunch of hippy roommates I didn't vibe with. Since I worked remotely I didn't have any coworkers to hang out with. I ended up renting an overpriced desk in a hipster co-working place where everyone kept to themselves and pretended to work. After a month I started getting depressed and it affected my work, so I bought a one-way ticket and moved back to my home country.
Shortly after moving back, I finally found my flow. I co-created a passion project with another friend (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8547351), started increasing my contracting rates, found higher quality clients, etc. I rented a small apartment in the city centre, hung out with friends and family, and basically loved my life (still do!). When I wanted some excitement and a change of scenery, I would jump on a plane and do a road trip abroad.
My buddy who didn't work remotely stayed in Berlin, made friends with some of his co-workers, expanded his social circle, and all in all had a great time. He then proceeded to get married, moved to San Francisco, worked at a FAANG-like corp, got divorced, and in the end moved back to the home country as well. Not (entirely) because of the divorce, but because he craved real friendship which he couldn't find in SF.
I guess the point of this story is... Being lonely sucks and having friends and family close is important? Yeah.
One thing I noticed about travellers was they can be put into two buckets:
#1. The lost. Running away from problems at home (or travelling for vague reasons).
#2. The motivated. Going to a country with purpose to do stuff.
It sounds to me like you did #1, and if you do it again perhaps you need to find a drive for #2.
#1. The lost. Running away from problems at home (or travelling for vague reasons).
#2. The motivated. Going to a country with purpose to do stuff.
It sounds to me like you did #1, and if you do it again perhaps you need to find a drive for #2.
The main issue, I think, is the fact that I was already fairly successful when I decided to move. I was working remotely and it didn't really matter where I lived. If I moved a couple of years prior the story might have been different: I'd have something to chase.
I've been working remotely for some time already. Currently, I'm the only remote worker at my client's company as I'm living in another country. Kind of nomad style, but I'm living with my wife's family.
As I'm more of a consultant than an employee, I see it a bit differently. What do I mean? Well, I'm trying to turn my side projects into something profitable and hopefully one day, into a company, where I'd be able to hire other people. I choose to work remotely to save time and to skip commute and so on to be as productive as possible not only for my client but also for the time when I'm building (with my SO) products.
I think, as far as it's your choice and you know what are the possible problems on the way, you should be fine. Treat yourself better. Go outside more (not only shopping), visit some parks. Do some hobbies and spend more time with your family.
So far I haven't known anyone to be forced into remote work. If you start working remotely, be serious about it, otherwise you're gonna face issues.
One more thing, don't listen to people that nomadlife/travelinglife/remotework is some silver bullet to whatever problems you have. It's not. It's hard and it's not pretty.
As I'm more of a consultant than an employee, I see it a bit differently. What do I mean? Well, I'm trying to turn my side projects into something profitable and hopefully one day, into a company, where I'd be able to hire other people. I choose to work remotely to save time and to skip commute and so on to be as productive as possible not only for my client but also for the time when I'm building (with my SO) products.
I think, as far as it's your choice and you know what are the possible problems on the way, you should be fine. Treat yourself better. Go outside more (not only shopping), visit some parks. Do some hobbies and spend more time with your family.
So far I haven't known anyone to be forced into remote work. If you start working remotely, be serious about it, otherwise you're gonna face issues.
One more thing, don't listen to people that nomadlife/travelinglife/remotework is some silver bullet to whatever problems you have. It's not. It's hard and it's not pretty.
A lot of the comments in this thread are a bit self-defensive and unempathetic to the problems described in this post.
This post, and many unrelated others in general, are talking about their own experiences. They don't seek to deny other people's experiences; and being slightly too general in their wording so that there might be an implication that their experiences apply to everyone, is a mistake that everyone makes and is an intrinsic part of natural everyday language. Pointing this out, and seeing others point it out, gets really tedious after a while, not to say uneducational and uninformative.
Personally, I've definitely been through a similar thing that this article describes. Remote work is indeed very draining indeed for the reasons described. If you have some ways to make it work for you, just say and state them, there is no need to say "the article is wrong / too general, actually it's only true when specific circumstances [X, Y and Z] apply that didn't apply to me", this adds nothing to the discussion and makes it sound like you're denying other people's experiences.
This post, and many unrelated others in general, are talking about their own experiences. They don't seek to deny other people's experiences; and being slightly too general in their wording so that there might be an implication that their experiences apply to everyone, is a mistake that everyone makes and is an intrinsic part of natural everyday language. Pointing this out, and seeing others point it out, gets really tedious after a while, not to say uneducational and uninformative.
Personally, I've definitely been through a similar thing that this article describes. Remote work is indeed very draining indeed for the reasons described. If you have some ways to make it work for you, just say and state them, there is no need to say "the article is wrong / too general, actually it's only true when specific circumstances [X, Y and Z] apply that didn't apply to me", this adds nothing to the discussion and makes it sound like you're denying other people's experiences.
I've been working fully remotely since 2012, except for one year when I had to go to the office every day. Points described in the article are valid, quite a few have occurred to me, but loneliness is the nastiest one I've been struck by. With that being said, I was so happy when my wife was let go from her job... Sure, extra income always helps, but having a human being around me helps a lot. I will sit down at my work desk, a designated place for work and work only, at around 9am and often wouldn't come out of my cabinet until 6pm, but taking the occasional coffee/pee break and seeing another person feels so much better! I started talking to my cat while my wife was still working, it helped, but not a lot. I also started having so many bad habits, like skipping meals, not doing any physical exercise or vaping at my desk, with my window open, not even bothering to go outside on the balcony. Humans are social beings and choosing to be alone is way different from being lonely. I don't think anything good has ever come out of loneliness.
these two paragraphs stuck out for me
> One study found that people with a “best friend” at work were seven times more likely to be engaged in their jobs. Furthermore, those who said they had friends at work felt more productive, stayed at their jobs longer, and reported higher job satisfaction.
> At the end of another two-year study that focused specifically on remote work, over half of an experimental remote group decided not to continue working from home 100 percent of the time. This despite the fact that they were a full-day’s-worth more productive per week, took less sick time, and were 50% less likely to quit than their counterparts who stayed in the office. Why did they come back to the office? They felt too isolated.
that matches my personal experience and wishes. The best times of my working career was working with people who became my best friends. Sadly the last that happened was 12 years ago and now that I'm older it seems much harder to make close friends with coworkers
I know everyone is different but I find it interesting that so many on HN and else where actively try to avoid making friends and work.
ymmv
> One study found that people with a “best friend” at work were seven times more likely to be engaged in their jobs. Furthermore, those who said they had friends at work felt more productive, stayed at their jobs longer, and reported higher job satisfaction.
> At the end of another two-year study that focused specifically on remote work, over half of an experimental remote group decided not to continue working from home 100 percent of the time. This despite the fact that they were a full-day’s-worth more productive per week, took less sick time, and were 50% less likely to quit than their counterparts who stayed in the office. Why did they come back to the office? They felt too isolated.
that matches my personal experience and wishes. The best times of my working career was working with people who became my best friends. Sadly the last that happened was 12 years ago and now that I'm older it seems much harder to make close friends with coworkers
I know everyone is different but I find it interesting that so many on HN and else where actively try to avoid making friends and work.
ymmv
I bet he is right that its harder for younger people. Having a family means having a routine built-in, you take your kids to school and go pick them up always at the same hour, play a bit, make dinner, bedtime, etc.
For younger people, maybe going to the gym almost every day? I bet that there are shared workspaces with people in the same situation in a lot of large cities at least.
For younger people, maybe going to the gym almost every day? I bet that there are shared workspaces with people in the same situation in a lot of large cities at least.
As a young person working remotely, I just realized the value of that this week; breaking up my workday at the climbing gym has helped me feel less isolated. I enjoy my solitude, but I still need to socialize during work hours somehow. While there aren’t many people at my climbing gym around noon, those who are there also seem open to chatting or being a climbing partner.
There is also a cafe upstairs which is convenient for lunch and the second half of the workday.
There is also a cafe upstairs which is convenient for lunch and the second half of the workday.
Decoupling work from building connections in meatspace is important. The tech for remote work is improving, and it's saving people in office costs, commute costs, and helps you find talent almost anywhere.
Admittedly some real trust has to be established between employer and employee, and this is still a tough problem to solve generally.
For work I literally use the phone to make calls and send texts to co-workers. There's also conference call software, chat apps, and e-mail. They each offer a different flavor, and you use them as needed and under your terms (usually!). Company flies me down every quarter. It's worked really well for 2+ years.
Now, building and finding communities on your own can feel overwhelming, but it's possible. It's been incredible being able to decide to co-work at a café on Friday with close friends. The same satisfaction from being at an office is there, and without the uncontrollable work-related interruptions.
Admittedly some real trust has to be established between employer and employee, and this is still a tough problem to solve generally.
For work I literally use the phone to make calls and send texts to co-workers. There's also conference call software, chat apps, and e-mail. They each offer a different flavor, and you use them as needed and under your terms (usually!). Company flies me down every quarter. It's worked really well for 2+ years.
Now, building and finding communities on your own can feel overwhelming, but it's possible. It's been incredible being able to decide to co-work at a café on Friday with close friends. The same satisfaction from being at an office is there, and without the uncontrollable work-related interruptions.
I’m glad someone is bringing awareness to the negative aspects of remote work / digital nomadism. It’s been romanticized far too much and encourages too many people to take for granted the structures of an office and fixed work times to provide healthy social interaction and reinforced purpose.
From all the different comments here, viability of remote work clearly varies by personality and personal life state. I’ll just share my story a bit for what it’s worth.
I own my own company and now I work remote. I am actually pretty outgoing and effective at making new friends by jumping into groups / activities solo. That said, I did not think about the need to make extra efforts when making the shift to not having an office with built-in community. My initial reaction was get my home setup with all the coffee/food/workstation so I wouldn’t have to leave (how efficient!), but now I realized that exacerbates the negative aspect of isolation. If you don’t have a family or friends pulling you into activities (older friends with families of their own are not going to be inviting you to activities regularly), things can get quiet pretty quick. I definitely miss the team lunches, happy hours and office off-site days (hell I end up crashing some of my friends' company offsites now). As for work balance, I’m quite self-driven but without a set schedule, it requires mindfulness and discipline to keep work flow in a healthy balance. This is an ongoing effort for remote workers, whereas for most colocated jobs, it’s just built-in when you show up.
I love my work so I don’t intend to find a job (although I have seriously considered it and will continue to keep it as an option) but if given the choice between a remote job working for someone else and being colocated with a kickass team, I’d go with the team 100% at least for this single stage of my life. It’s a lot easier to feel engaged with your work, have a healthy work-life balance (depending on the company), and have healthy social interactions.
From all the different comments here, viability of remote work clearly varies by personality and personal life state. I’ll just share my story a bit for what it’s worth.
I own my own company and now I work remote. I am actually pretty outgoing and effective at making new friends by jumping into groups / activities solo. That said, I did not think about the need to make extra efforts when making the shift to not having an office with built-in community. My initial reaction was get my home setup with all the coffee/food/workstation so I wouldn’t have to leave (how efficient!), but now I realized that exacerbates the negative aspect of isolation. If you don’t have a family or friends pulling you into activities (older friends with families of their own are not going to be inviting you to activities regularly), things can get quiet pretty quick. I definitely miss the team lunches, happy hours and office off-site days (hell I end up crashing some of my friends' company offsites now). As for work balance, I’m quite self-driven but without a set schedule, it requires mindfulness and discipline to keep work flow in a healthy balance. This is an ongoing effort for remote workers, whereas for most colocated jobs, it’s just built-in when you show up.
I love my work so I don’t intend to find a job (although I have seriously considered it and will continue to keep it as an option) but if given the choice between a remote job working for someone else and being colocated with a kickass team, I’d go with the team 100% at least for this single stage of my life. It’s a lot easier to feel engaged with your work, have a healthy work-life balance (depending on the company), and have healthy social interactions.
> Openly acknowledging that there can be serious mental health issues related to remote work. People are not alone in these struggles, and there’s nothing “wrong” with feeling anxious or depressed.
> Encouraging people to use sick days for mental health when they need them.
It's nice that a company actually cares, but I feel there's a way to push this too far... Like not everything is a "mental health issue". You feel sad, unmotivated, anxious about your future some days? Well everyone does, it's called being human (and not a psychopath)! I sometimes get the feeling that by encouraging indulging in these (often ephemeral, fleeting) feelings encourages a victim mentality of helplessness and doom... maybe we should be encouraging resilience instead (not in the "be strong suppress your feelings" kind of way, just as a middle ground).
> Encouraging people to use sick days for mental health when they need them.
It's nice that a company actually cares, but I feel there's a way to push this too far... Like not everything is a "mental health issue". You feel sad, unmotivated, anxious about your future some days? Well everyone does, it's called being human (and not a psychopath)! I sometimes get the feeling that by encouraging indulging in these (often ephemeral, fleeting) feelings encourages a victim mentality of helplessness and doom... maybe we should be encouraging resilience instead (not in the "be strong suppress your feelings" kind of way, just as a middle ground).
>a victim mentality of helplessness and doom
This isn't what accepting that you have mental health issues look like. This is what happens when you don't have support to handle your mental health in helpful ways.
This isn't what accepting that you have mental health issues look like. This is what happens when you don't have support to handle your mental health in helpful ways.
I'm on a fully remote team. I do like the convenience of not wasting time with rush hour commuting and such. That being said, the next time I have the opportunity to negotiate an added perk I'll be hoping to get a small budget for a local co-working space. Once or twice week would be perfect.
There are a lot of very, very good points in this article, but I can’t help disagreeing with the opening, in which the author talks about (or at least quotes Seneca on) the impossibility of making meaningful connections while living abroad and moving around.
Moving out of my home country and forcing myself to get comfortable meeting strangers was not only the most important thing I’ve done for myself, but gave me a handful of incredibly close friends I didn’t have before, and I was happily working remotely for a company in another country during that time.
It’s not for everyone, but don’t let this article dissuade you from trying it, if you can. Meeting people from all over the world, and learning a new language, all while working remotely was life changing in a way I didn’t think possible.
Moving out of my home country and forcing myself to get comfortable meeting strangers was not only the most important thing I’ve done for myself, but gave me a handful of incredibly close friends I didn’t have before, and I was happily working remotely for a company in another country during that time.
It’s not for everyone, but don’t let this article dissuade you from trying it, if you can. Meeting people from all over the world, and learning a new language, all while working remotely was life changing in a way I didn’t think possible.
I hear you and agree and disagree. I've definitely had my life changed by moving/traveling abroad. At the same time, I just kept going and going and now I've spread myself too thin and have acquaintanceships all over.
> "Remote workers shouldn’t feel like they have to travel to lead interesting, fulfilled lives. It’s ok to prioritize friendships, community, and your mental health over traveling. It may not look as glamorous on Instagram, but you may end up a lot happier for it"
It's always enriching to read personal perspective from people that live on a bubble different than mine.
I want to start working remotely to be able to avoid commutes and to have more flexibility on how I manage my time during the day. It never crossed my mind that I should be traveling.
I would phrase that it is not ok to not prioritize friendships and mental health over traveling.
But different bubbles offer different peer pressures. It is good to know about them in order to also understand my own bubble better
It's always enriching to read personal perspective from people that live on a bubble different than mine.
I want to start working remotely to be able to avoid commutes and to have more flexibility on how I manage my time during the day. It never crossed my mind that I should be traveling.
I would phrase that it is not ok to not prioritize friendships and mental health over traveling.
But different bubbles offer different peer pressures. It is good to know about them in order to also understand my own bubble better
i love remote work. i’ve done it for most of the last 12 years, and some of that time was spent traveling.
i hates most of my office years (the other 14). most offices had bad lighting, poor ergonomics, open office plans or low wall cubes, blasting AC, and always a few employees who loved to check voicemail over speakerphone.
regarding loneliness, i know some people who can be lonely in any situation. and then there are people like me who are rarely lonely, enjoy solitude, but also maintain a few long lasting and meaningful relationships.
perhaps the big difference between me and the author is age. spend a decade or more in sucky offices and remote work feels like heaven. i’ll work my ass off, 12+ hours a day, if i can choose where i work from day to day.
i hates most of my office years (the other 14). most offices had bad lighting, poor ergonomics, open office plans or low wall cubes, blasting AC, and always a few employees who loved to check voicemail over speakerphone.
regarding loneliness, i know some people who can be lonely in any situation. and then there are people like me who are rarely lonely, enjoy solitude, but also maintain a few long lasting and meaningful relationships.
perhaps the big difference between me and the author is age. spend a decade or more in sucky offices and remote work feels like heaven. i’ll work my ass off, 12+ hours a day, if i can choose where i work from day to day.
I’ve been working remotely for about 2-3 years now but due to a new job I will be working at an office now starting tomorrow.
It is a terrifying feeling to say the least. I am trying to be optimistic and hope to get over it quick.
Working remotely have been amazing and was a life changing experience for me. It was good in that I got to see the world as it is for the first time. Being able to drive out or walk around the town at any time or anywhere is the most liberating feeling you can have. Prior, I was working in office for over 8 years so I had no idea there was a bustling world outside of the office.
So yeah it is scary to be going back but I am going with the mindset that being able to socialize will be worth the trade off.
It is a terrifying feeling to say the least. I am trying to be optimistic and hope to get over it quick.
Working remotely have been amazing and was a life changing experience for me. It was good in that I got to see the world as it is for the first time. Being able to drive out or walk around the town at any time or anywhere is the most liberating feeling you can have. Prior, I was working in office for over 8 years so I had no idea there was a bustling world outside of the office.
So yeah it is scary to be going back but I am going with the mindset that being able to socialize will be worth the trade off.
Good luck and report back to us in 3 months!
I work 1 day a week in the office 4 days at home. I am much happier and healthier. Every lunch I go for a run, something I could not do when I was at the office. I am getting more sleep as I wake up later do to no commute. Overall it is much better.
My company is 100% distributed. We have people between California and Moscow.
We try to employ people who have a motivation to work remotely--ability to travel, desire for more flexibility to be with family, reduce commute times, etc. For people with those motivations, remote work can be a real benefit and actually gives us an edge in hiring.
I've been working remotely fully or mostly for the last 12 years. It's great--I can structure my time to ensure I get enough exercise, take naps when necessary, and generally avoid the constraints of some artificial 9-5 clock. It's not for everyone, but at this point I would hate to have a full-time job in an office.
We try to employ people who have a motivation to work remotely--ability to travel, desire for more flexibility to be with family, reduce commute times, etc. For people with those motivations, remote work can be a real benefit and actually gives us an edge in hiring.
I've been working remotely fully or mostly for the last 12 years. It's great--I can structure my time to ensure I get enough exercise, take naps when necessary, and generally avoid the constraints of some artificial 9-5 clock. It's not for everyone, but at this point I would hate to have a full-time job in an office.
I've recently started listening to the Happiness Lab, a podcast by a Yale professor called Dr Laurie Santos which covers scientific research about happiness: https://www.happinesslab.fm
Some of early episodes touch on the highly-counterintuitive beliefs that pretty much everyone has with the relationship between happiness and direct in-person contact with other people (namely that they'll be happiest if they never have to talk to another stranger again). It's worth listening to and reflecting on.
Some of early episodes touch on the highly-counterintuitive beliefs that pretty much everyone has with the relationship between happiness and direct in-person contact with other people (namely that they'll be happiest if they never have to talk to another stranger again). It's worth listening to and reflecting on.
"the ambitious side that’s never satisfied with the way that things are and the human side that wants to be content and happy" I found this line very relatable -- as with almost everything in life, balance is key. You would think we would know this by now, but it's usually the first thing to suffer. Anyways, I think it's great these topics are brought to the forefront -- instead of being siloed and almost taboo to talk about openly. We're surprisingly closed minded when it comes to mental health issues...
I don't really see why people keep trying to "defend" remote working looking for optimizations in a practice which is fundamentally broken. At what point in our evolutionary history do you think the human animal, which evolved as a pack hunter in a highly socialized environment, was designed to work from home 40 hrs a week? We should be focusing on creating more flexible office environments for our workers where they can come in and work with their coworkers regularly
We should also accept that people are very different. I know people who prefer to go to the office whereas people like myself prefer working from home. My ideal situation would probably be a small office close to my home where I can work with a few people. Large offices are definitely not for me. I find them very stressful. But other people find them energizing. So we should accept that people are different and see how to accommodate all working styles.
We weren't "designed" to work in offices either. Or use computers. Yet we do it, because while these may bring troubles for going against our "design", they also come with advantages.
Our modern lifestyle is extremely different from the lifestyles that shaped our evolution over millennia. You can't just pick and choose to what aspects you apply the naturalistic argument.
Our modern lifestyle is extremely different from the lifestyles that shaped our evolution over millennia. You can't just pick and choose to what aspects you apply the naturalistic argument.
> was designed to work from home 40 hrs a week?
At all time in history before the industrial revolution? You worked at home, which was right next to your field, or in front of /under your home. Commuting to work wasn't even an option ; usually only merchants traveled.
The weird situation is when you have to move away from your family in unfamiliar cramped apartments just so you can work in a factory nearby and perhaps send them back money. It's not "normal", it's rather abnormal but cities have adapted to this abnormal situation. The trend to economies becoming 100% services is helping to bring people back to ancient normality.
> We should be focusing on creating more flexible office environments
No we should be working to make residential areas more social and turn them to mixed residential/commercial, just how it used to be (and still is in most of europe). Offices are a relic.
This is actually going to happen spontaneously as soon as everyone has 4-5 neighbors who also work from home. It's a matter of time
At all time in history before the industrial revolution? You worked at home, which was right next to your field, or in front of /under your home. Commuting to work wasn't even an option ; usually only merchants traveled.
The weird situation is when you have to move away from your family in unfamiliar cramped apartments just so you can work in a factory nearby and perhaps send them back money. It's not "normal", it's rather abnormal but cities have adapted to this abnormal situation. The trend to economies becoming 100% services is helping to bring people back to ancient normality.
> We should be focusing on creating more flexible office environments
No we should be working to make residential areas more social and turn them to mixed residential/commercial, just how it used to be (and still is in most of europe). Offices are a relic.
This is actually going to happen spontaneously as soon as everyone has 4-5 neighbors who also work from home. It's a matter of time
I think you are right, that it's going to take many years before we realize that remote work is on the same level as the open office: sounds great in theory but actually counterproductive when it comes down to the practicalities.
And here I was getting excited about the benefits of async communications with remote working from another article today:
https://doist.com/blog/asynchronous-communication/
Solitude, "time alone with ones thoughts" or personal time is not everyones cup of tea, but depending on the individual, if thats your wheelhouse, the lack of distractions is priceless in regards to productivity.
https://doist.com/blog/asynchronous-communication/
Solitude, "time alone with ones thoughts" or personal time is not everyones cup of tea, but depending on the individual, if thats your wheelhouse, the lack of distractions is priceless in regards to productivity.
What's the consensus on co-working perks/incentives? Should employers be breaking that out as a reimbursement for expenses or should they just bake it into a salary? I feel like too many individual perks/incentives suddenly get the company deeply involved in how work is being performed. As an employer I'd much rather workers just work how best they enjoy and pay them a fair wage.
> Articles about the remote work lifestyle have tended to focus on drinking piña coladas on the beach, traveling the world, and otherwise enjoying a life that inspires envy in your social media following.
Did they though? I have the impression that the last dozen of articles I've seen on remote working on HN concentrate on the negatives. Mainly because the positives are rather obvious.
Did they though? I have the impression that the last dozen of articles I've seen on remote working on HN concentrate on the negatives. Mainly because the positives are rather obvious.
I really appreciate this discussion and article. I have struggled so much with anxiety/depression from remote working. I've tried so many things to help it. The only thing that helped was finally finding coworking spaces in Berlin/Oaxaca where there was some interaction. For whatever reason, I just could not click with any of the Oakland, CA ones.
Is it true that most remote-first companies only hire people who have already significant (>1yr) experience working remotely? That's the impression I have reading this and other HN threads about remote work.
It's sort of a catch-22 situation, not dissimilar to the one beginning developers find themselves in when looking for jobs that require experience.
It's sort of a catch-22 situation, not dissimilar to the one beginning developers find themselves in when looking for jobs that require experience.
I don't know about "most" but we are remote first and no we don't. We do ask people about it during the interview tho, so I guess people who have done it before will be at an advantage. But we certainly don't require experience. Research a lot so you can talk about it during interviews, I guess, and good luck!
No. We hire people who are working in offices in their current jobs, but I usually discuss remote work during the interview process to make sure they understand what they are getting into.
The other thing is finding decent salaries. Companies that advertise remote work usually want to drop 80k+ from your salary.
For me the big lesson is it is possible to structure an environment for "accidental sociability" - the most obvious one being individual rooms in a shared house - but there are plenty of other examples
- and this is something I suspect that happier more productive socities as well as companies will embrace
- and this is something I suspect that happier more productive socities as well as companies will embrace
Again another article of “It applies to me, therefore must apply to everybody”
If remote work isn’t working for you, don’t do it. I’ve done everything this dudes done but it has been the happiest time of my life. One would perhaps dare to think, different people react differently to the same things.
If remote work isn’t working for you, don’t do it. I’ve done everything this dudes done but it has been the happiest time of my life. One would perhaps dare to think, different people react differently to the same things.
Can anyone who’s remote but in a non-engineering role share there experiences?
I’ve always wondered how a highly social job like a Product Manager, or Salesperson could possibly work remotely when you need to have a ton of meetings and face to face contact
I’ve always wondered how a highly social job like a Product Manager, or Salesperson could possibly work remotely when you need to have a ton of meetings and face to face contact
I've known a lot of remote sales people and they usually work a geographical region and spend time on client/customer sites or golfing.
There is really no reason why you cannot have a vibrant social life as a remote worker, or as a digital nomad. The latter is much harder but it's a choice that people make and I would assume they make it knowingly.
> I would assume they make it knowingly.
I think this is a dangerous assumption, and why OP wrote the article. People often make choices based on assumptions and bad information. Like not knowing that they need a vibrant social life to feel well, because they simply never lacked one.
I think this is a dangerous assumption, and why OP wrote the article. People often make choices based on assumptions and bad information. Like not knowing that they need a vibrant social life to feel well, because they simply never lacked one.
"No reason' != "objectively more difficult".
Rootlessness is real and hard.
Rootlessness is real and hard.
I've been sort of jumping between jobs, many of which are remote, and others which are in different places from home base.
You need to CALL friends, not text. It helps significantly.
You need to CALL friends, not text. It helps significantly.
I just quit my remote job which was quite a career boost due to isolation, anxiety and depression. I am definitely not going to be doing that again.
(2018)
Neat to see hn grouping previous submissions across 3 different URLs ("past").
Canonical URLs FTW.
Neat to see hn grouping previous submissions across 3 different URLs ("past").
Canonical URLs FTW.
I work mostly remotely (although I do visit my clients every now and then), and many of the pitfalls in the article are real, and I had to deal with some of them.
One is the ability to work whenever the hell you want. For me this led to working in the dead of the night. I'd start at around 7PM in earnest and finish by 4AM (!). If you have a family, this is not a sustainable situation, so I had to fix that. It was surprisingly difficult to fix - I'm a night owl naturally, my best work is done late in the day, the later - the better. But I go to bed at 12AM now, which isn't too bad.
Another very real issue is the separation of work and life. That I dealt with by only doing work in one place at my house. I have a separate "work" desk, and a separate set of hardware there (computers are provided by clients), and I don't do work anywhere else. I also have different login keys on client hardware and SSH password login is disabled, so I can't log into them from my personal laptop even if I want to. Finally, I have a separate GSuite account for work Gmail, and Chrome profile, and there's no "work" chrome profile on my personal laptop. This solves the problem reasonably well, without the expense of renting an office, and time sink of adding a commute. This would have been an intolerable situation if I had small kids or a needy spouse though. I'd have to rent an office then.
WRT "mental health" issues, I feel like I'm doing all right on that front. If anything, visiting the offices is more stressful than not going anywhere. It's much noisier and much harder to focus when I'm there. But I suspect the transition would be a lot less clear cut if the office arrangement were more humane, like it was at, say, MS in early 00's - individual offices where you can close the door, library noise levels. I had one of those as late as in 2009. It was heaven compared to what you get now (including at MS). I kept my door open most of the time, but when I needed to really focus, I had the option of doing so.
I think one important thing is to keep a conversation going with whoever manages you and with your direct teammates. You don't have to get into everyone's face, but a low traffic, async Slack channel is pretty indispensable IMO, as is the brief weekly report on what's been done and what remains to be done. If this is not done, it could appear that you aren't doing much: people won't naturally make the consistent effort to go and look, and even if they do, it's often not easy to see the difficulties you've experienced. I.e. you could spend a few days debugging a gnarly issue in TF 2.0 (of which it has a surprising number), and the fix might be one line. That could very easily appear like you've been slacking off most of the week if the only info the other side has about the fix is a brief blurb in the PR.
Finally, another issue is that I feel like remote is more suitable to the kind of work which is not speculative in nature, and where you can deliver results of a predictable size at a roughly even cadence. With some of the best work I've done in my career that hasn't been so: delivery was very uneven, and I'd sometimes not submit anything for weeks on end just because I was thinking of (and prototyping) how best to do what I was trying to do. I imagine that'd be problematic in a remote arrangement, especially if you change a steep hourly rate, like I do.
If someone has found a solution to this last problem, please share.
One is the ability to work whenever the hell you want. For me this led to working in the dead of the night. I'd start at around 7PM in earnest and finish by 4AM (!). If you have a family, this is not a sustainable situation, so I had to fix that. It was surprisingly difficult to fix - I'm a night owl naturally, my best work is done late in the day, the later - the better. But I go to bed at 12AM now, which isn't too bad.
Another very real issue is the separation of work and life. That I dealt with by only doing work in one place at my house. I have a separate "work" desk, and a separate set of hardware there (computers are provided by clients), and I don't do work anywhere else. I also have different login keys on client hardware and SSH password login is disabled, so I can't log into them from my personal laptop even if I want to. Finally, I have a separate GSuite account for work Gmail, and Chrome profile, and there's no "work" chrome profile on my personal laptop. This solves the problem reasonably well, without the expense of renting an office, and time sink of adding a commute. This would have been an intolerable situation if I had small kids or a needy spouse though. I'd have to rent an office then.
WRT "mental health" issues, I feel like I'm doing all right on that front. If anything, visiting the offices is more stressful than not going anywhere. It's much noisier and much harder to focus when I'm there. But I suspect the transition would be a lot less clear cut if the office arrangement were more humane, like it was at, say, MS in early 00's - individual offices where you can close the door, library noise levels. I had one of those as late as in 2009. It was heaven compared to what you get now (including at MS). I kept my door open most of the time, but when I needed to really focus, I had the option of doing so.
I think one important thing is to keep a conversation going with whoever manages you and with your direct teammates. You don't have to get into everyone's face, but a low traffic, async Slack channel is pretty indispensable IMO, as is the brief weekly report on what's been done and what remains to be done. If this is not done, it could appear that you aren't doing much: people won't naturally make the consistent effort to go and look, and even if they do, it's often not easy to see the difficulties you've experienced. I.e. you could spend a few days debugging a gnarly issue in TF 2.0 (of which it has a surprising number), and the fix might be one line. That could very easily appear like you've been slacking off most of the week if the only info the other side has about the fix is a brief blurb in the PR.
Finally, another issue is that I feel like remote is more suitable to the kind of work which is not speculative in nature, and where you can deliver results of a predictable size at a roughly even cadence. With some of the best work I've done in my career that hasn't been so: delivery was very uneven, and I'd sometimes not submit anything for weeks on end just because I was thinking of (and prototyping) how best to do what I was trying to do. I imagine that'd be problematic in a remote arrangement, especially if you change a steep hourly rate, like I do.
If someone has found a solution to this last problem, please share.
Excellent points, corresponding strongly with my experience.
When I've shifted to night schedules, it's almost always been because daylight hours impose too many interruptions. Even very slight distractions can be hugely distruptive, particularly over time. These range from ringing phones to various street and environment noise (traffic, voices, landscaping equipment, construction), conversations or activities elsewhere in the household or building. Conversations by those you know are exceptionally distracting, far beyond all apparent proportion. The low chatter of a cafe can be tolerable, but a significant other, manager, or co-worker having a quiet converstation nearby will grab your attention, because it could be consequential.
If you don't have full control of your workspace, you've got the added issues of insufficient working room, things not remaining where you put them, and disagreements over organisation and environment (hot/cold, light/dark, windows open/closed, music/none, metal or classical, etc., etc.). Dominion matters tremendously.
The long-term vs. speculative projects issue is one that seems to hinge on trust and communications channel quality. In-person, in-office work benefits by butts-on-seats and the fact that your manager can personally and directly verify you're working on what you said you would be. Creative and speculative work is tremendously uncertain and hard to express / quantify, both as to possible value and any potential progress being made. This is one of a number of problems under the domain of what I call "manifestation", effectively, how directly manifest, tangible, or perceptible a thing is. While direct physical labour is immediately tangible (holes enlarge, wood sawed, big rocks become little oens), intellectual challenges don't lend themselves to ready visualisation or perception. A huge amount of workplace fads over the past half century (and before) have sought to address this. Most poorly.
Finding a manager (or client) who has a good grasp of this might help. I'm really not one to claim solutions, though I think I've a handle on the problem.
And writ large, this is the problem with remote work: it's not manifest.
When I've shifted to night schedules, it's almost always been because daylight hours impose too many interruptions. Even very slight distractions can be hugely distruptive, particularly over time. These range from ringing phones to various street and environment noise (traffic, voices, landscaping equipment, construction), conversations or activities elsewhere in the household or building. Conversations by those you know are exceptionally distracting, far beyond all apparent proportion. The low chatter of a cafe can be tolerable, but a significant other, manager, or co-worker having a quiet converstation nearby will grab your attention, because it could be consequential.
If you don't have full control of your workspace, you've got the added issues of insufficient working room, things not remaining where you put them, and disagreements over organisation and environment (hot/cold, light/dark, windows open/closed, music/none, metal or classical, etc., etc.). Dominion matters tremendously.
The long-term vs. speculative projects issue is one that seems to hinge on trust and communications channel quality. In-person, in-office work benefits by butts-on-seats and the fact that your manager can personally and directly verify you're working on what you said you would be. Creative and speculative work is tremendously uncertain and hard to express / quantify, both as to possible value and any potential progress being made. This is one of a number of problems under the domain of what I call "manifestation", effectively, how directly manifest, tangible, or perceptible a thing is. While direct physical labour is immediately tangible (holes enlarge, wood sawed, big rocks become little oens), intellectual challenges don't lend themselves to ready visualisation or perception. A huge amount of workplace fads over the past half century (and before) have sought to address this. Most poorly.
Finding a manager (or client) who has a good grasp of this might help. I'm really not one to claim solutions, though I think I've a handle on the problem.
And writ large, this is the problem with remote work: it's not manifest.
Out of topic but do anyone know an online community of remote workers?
I'm working on one: https://reworkin.com . I do think there are some discord/slack channels too. There's also nomadlist but it's mainly about nomadism
Thanks! I've just registered
I have never met my boss or any of my coworkers in person.
I do highly technical work, on a team that only hires very senior developers who have prior remote work experience.
And I can say, it is NOT for everyone.
If you do not have a life out of work, if you live alone, if you do not have a good network of real friends and/or family, or what you would consider an area "home", that's a problem.
My problem? I have almost all of those issues at the moment. I do have a work/life balance, but I don't do much with the "life" part. My close friends have scattered as they got older, had kids, moved around to different states for work, and I didn't put effort into finding new ones.
I can live wherever I want, but I don't know where I want to live! I can even move to Europe as I am a dual US/Irish citizen, but I don't know where I would want to go in Europe!
I have lived in so many states in my life already, I don't have a "home" really, so that's an issue also.
It seems great, but it comes with drawbacks. I'm working on them, while working on work.