‘Tesla killer’ Mercedes EQC flops with 55 units sold in Germany(teslarati.com)
teslarati.com
‘Tesla killer’ Mercedes EQC flops with 55 units sold in Germany
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-killer-mercedes-benz-eqc-flops-germany/
41 comments
What I don't get about the luxury companies making electric is that their range is crap. Range matters for an electric vehicle, and I would expect a luxury (non sports) car to have better range than a Leaf/Tesla 3/Bolt etc.
I don't think it's hard to see why. It's a $67k base price with only a 200 mile range.
Because it's a worse car.
The absolute minimum bar to hit for a car that's even roughly the same price (say within 30% or so) is the range of the equivalent Tesla.
Bear in mind also, that this car would not give you access to Tesla superchargers. I'm currently on a road trip across Europe and if I had to use only the standard chargers it would have been far more logistically challenging.
So to make up for that it should have significantly _more_ range than a Tesla, because otherwise it's an inferior product in practice.
That isn't happening, and everything they make without that problem solved is literally a waste of energy. A little Nissan Micra type car can have a 100 mile range and that's fine, it's a city car.
A big sedan should be able to drive anywhere - if it can't, it's basically a stocking filler, it's going to be scrapped in 5-10 years.
The absolute minimum bar to hit for a car that's even roughly the same price (say within 30% or so) is the range of the equivalent Tesla.
Bear in mind also, that this car would not give you access to Tesla superchargers. I'm currently on a road trip across Europe and if I had to use only the standard chargers it would have been far more logistically challenging.
So to make up for that it should have significantly _more_ range than a Tesla, because otherwise it's an inferior product in practice.
That isn't happening, and everything they make without that problem solved is literally a waste of energy. A little Nissan Micra type car can have a 100 mile range and that's fine, it's a city car.
A big sedan should be able to drive anywhere - if it can't, it's basically a stocking filler, it's going to be scrapped in 5-10 years.
> The absolute minimum bar to hit for a car that's even roughly the same price (say within 30% or so) is the range of the equivalent Tesla.
It's not that simple. The Audi e-tron outsells both the Model X and the Model S in Europe:
http://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2019/12/europe-november-2019.ht...
> Bear in mind also, that this car would not give you access to Tesla superchargers.
I always find this mindset strange. A closed charging network is not in your best interest as a driver. The question you should be asking is why can't you charge any EV on Tesla's chargers.
Here is a Volkswagen ID.3 charging side by side with a Tesla Model 3 on Ionity chargers, exactly as it should be:
https://imgur.com/a/Giue5hW
Other charging networks allow Teslas to charge on them, so when will Tesla reciprocate and open their network to other EVs?
It's not that simple. The Audi e-tron outsells both the Model X and the Model S in Europe:
http://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2019/12/europe-november-2019.ht...
> Bear in mind also, that this car would not give you access to Tesla superchargers.
I always find this mindset strange. A closed charging network is not in your best interest as a driver. The question you should be asking is why can't you charge any EV on Tesla's chargers.
Here is a Volkswagen ID.3 charging side by side with a Tesla Model 3 on Ionity chargers, exactly as it should be:
https://imgur.com/a/Giue5hW
Other charging networks allow Teslas to charge on them, so when will Tesla reciprocate and open their network to other EVs?
> I always find this mindset strange. A closed charging network is not in your best interest as a driver. The question you should be asking is why can't you charge any EV on Tesla's chargers.
I mean, if you're buying a car today, what matters is the charging network that exists, not the one you theoretically might like to exist. I take real trips, not dream ones.... :P
I mean, if you're buying a car today, what matters is the charging network that exists, not the one you theoretically might like to exist. I take real trips, not dream ones.... :P
> what matters is the charging network that exists, not the one you theoretically might like to exist.
No, you're still trapped in this closed network mindset. What matters is that multiple, interoperable networks exist, which they do. The Internet is better than AOL.
Tesla's just not a team player. It's profoundly lame. It's fascinating that people defend it.
No, you're still trapped in this closed network mindset. What matters is that multiple, interoperable networks exist, which they do. The Internet is better than AOL.
Tesla's just not a team player. It's profoundly lame. It's fascinating that people defend it.
You can charge other EVs on a tesla charge. No company has made it possible yet though. Tesla made their one tech and got ahead. Why the industry steal made their own is beyond me
Tesla uses CCS type 2 combo plugs in Europe. It took them about 4 months to switch over:
https://insideevs.com/news/343728/most-tesla-superchargers-n...
All CCS EVs can already plug in to European Tesla chargers.
The only thing preventing them from charging is Tesla.
https://insideevs.com/news/343728/most-tesla-superchargers-n...
All CCS EVs can already plug in to European Tesla chargers.
The only thing preventing them from charging is Tesla.
Strangely absent from the blog post, or the article on which it is based, is the price of the vehicle. It mentions "numerous Tesla Model 3s", but I suspect that this thing costs more than a Model X.
The other factor, of course, is infrastructure. What is the availability of Mercedes-compatible chargers, compared to Tesla?
Edit: I stand corrected on the price. I don't know about Germany, but pathartl's quoted US price, while quite a bit more than a Model 3, would be less than a Model X.
The other factor, of course, is infrastructure. What is the availability of Mercedes-compatible chargers, compared to Tesla?
Edit: I stand corrected on the price. I don't know about Germany, but pathartl's quoted US price, while quite a bit more than a Model 3, would be less than a Model X.
This blog is a Tesla mouthpiece. I'm surprised their articles get voted-up. It's embarrassing.
Is the goal to be green, or is it to root for Silicon Valley?
Is the goal to be green, or is it to root for Silicon Valley?
Can you point to some general ideas or specific claims the website promotes that are simply false?
I cannot imagine the product teams that designed the Audi e-tron or the Mercedes EQC having sat down and said, "Let's build a car to compete with Tesla." What they created did not attempt to meet Tesla's strengths.
Tesla understands that the thing that new EV owners really want is to feel secure (read: range and chargers so they're not stranded) and to have their newfangled electric cars feel "futuristic" (read: spartan interior, big touchscreen, autopilot, OTA software updates).
Audi, Jaguar, Mercedes, et. al think that new EV owners want the same driving experience they had in their gas cars, only with an electric drivetrain. So they made their cars heavier in their pursuit of making the cars quiet, which they accomplished quite well. They preserved much of the body styling at the expense of drag because they assumed customers would want that brand identity. They targeted the "non power users," in that they held back a significant chunk of the battery from the consumer (~20% for the e-tron) so that consumers in hot climates couldn't wreck the battery by habitually charging all the way to 100% and letting the pack sit like that, which destroys lithium ion battery chemistry.
Tesla on the other hand spent their complexity budget for the Model 3 on extracting as much range as possible with as little expense as they could. As a result, the car is significantly lighter, and anyone who owns a Model 3 can attest to the fact that there's a lot of road noise. This is immediately solvable with heavier materials, but Tesla understands that the first batch of Model 3 owners strongly prefer the range over the creature comfort. And that the first batch of Model 3 owners are less likely to wreck their battery packs by habitually letting them sit overcharged for long periods of time. So they can expose the full battery packs to the consumer and get that 20% range boost over competitors who hold that back from the consumer.
2020/2021 is starting to get interesting with the Ford Mach E, the Volvo Polestar 2, the LEAF Plus, the second-year Hyundai Kona Electric and Kia Niro Electric, and the updated Bolt, together with the very rapidly expanding Electrify America rapid charging network. Tesla will continue to optimize for range and will likely keep a "stats lead" on the competition, but as range anxiety starts to be alleviated the second generation of EV converts may shift their demands away from range and toward other characteristics of the vehicle such as the interior and road noise isolation. It will be interesting to see where that goes.
Tesla understands that the thing that new EV owners really want is to feel secure (read: range and chargers so they're not stranded) and to have their newfangled electric cars feel "futuristic" (read: spartan interior, big touchscreen, autopilot, OTA software updates).
Audi, Jaguar, Mercedes, et. al think that new EV owners want the same driving experience they had in their gas cars, only with an electric drivetrain. So they made their cars heavier in their pursuit of making the cars quiet, which they accomplished quite well. They preserved much of the body styling at the expense of drag because they assumed customers would want that brand identity. They targeted the "non power users," in that they held back a significant chunk of the battery from the consumer (~20% for the e-tron) so that consumers in hot climates couldn't wreck the battery by habitually charging all the way to 100% and letting the pack sit like that, which destroys lithium ion battery chemistry.
Tesla on the other hand spent their complexity budget for the Model 3 on extracting as much range as possible with as little expense as they could. As a result, the car is significantly lighter, and anyone who owns a Model 3 can attest to the fact that there's a lot of road noise. This is immediately solvable with heavier materials, but Tesla understands that the first batch of Model 3 owners strongly prefer the range over the creature comfort. And that the first batch of Model 3 owners are less likely to wreck their battery packs by habitually letting them sit overcharged for long periods of time. So they can expose the full battery packs to the consumer and get that 20% range boost over competitors who hold that back from the consumer.
2020/2021 is starting to get interesting with the Ford Mach E, the Volvo Polestar 2, the LEAF Plus, the second-year Hyundai Kona Electric and Kia Niro Electric, and the updated Bolt, together with the very rapidly expanding Electrify America rapid charging network. Tesla will continue to optimize for range and will likely keep a "stats lead" on the competition, but as range anxiety starts to be alleviated the second generation of EV converts may shift their demands away from range and toward other characteristics of the vehicle such as the interior and road noise isolation. It will be interesting to see where that goes.
>Tesla understands that the thing that new EV owners really want is to feel secure (read: range and chargers so they're not stranded)
Do you have any evidence for this? It's a fact that most people drive fewer than 50 miles per day, and most can charge at home. I'd also bet that most EV owners have a second vehicle which has an ICE.
Do you have any evidence for this? It's a fact that most people drive fewer than 50 miles per day, and most can charge at home. I'd also bet that most EV owners have a second vehicle which has an ICE.
As an owner of a Tesla 3, if they would only put some effort into sound deadening they would be able to silence many of their critics. Now I put this car just below a pre 2010 Accord I used to deal with but let me be honest, an EV should emphasize its silent drive by trying to keep the drive as quiet as possible. Compared to my 2017 Volt, it is louder on bad roads; roads with obvious surface degradation and even tar snakes; but quieter than my 2012 Z4 but that is on par with other 3 and 4 series.
as for the EV market in general. I don't think Mercedes, Audi, and maybe even VW; parent of Audi, as whole take the whole range number seriously. To them they are being forced into an platform that they do not want and never would have gotten to. It is very much likely no governments would have ever pushed BEV adoption if Tesla had not come along. We would have forever been stuck in the sub 100 mile range cars with some incremental range improvements to convince us they were improving year after year.
as for the EV market in general. I don't think Mercedes, Audi, and maybe even VW; parent of Audi, as whole take the whole range number seriously. To them they are being forced into an platform that they do not want and never would have gotten to. It is very much likely no governments would have ever pushed BEV adoption if Tesla had not come along. We would have forever been stuck in the sub 100 mile range cars with some incremental range improvements to convince us they were improving year after year.
I want to take a ride in a Model 3 just because of the reported road noise. I bet it's half as loud as my Mini Cooper S. Whenever I get into another car it seems like it's completely dead in comparison.
Also I wonder if road noise could be combated by active noise canceling.
Also I wonder if road noise could be combated by active noise canceling.
If you're going from maybe a high-mileage high-volume hybrid, or other gas efficient compact to a Model 3, the driver is going to think the Model 3 is quieter. If you're going from a conventional Mercedes/BMW to a Model 3, you'll think the Model 3 is louder and a rougher ride.
I think Mercedes is the wrong manufacturer to try to compete with Tesla. Merc buyers are older folks and flashy people with more money than sense. They don’t care one bit about going green.
As a German, I'm a bit curious why is this being downvoted. I had the exact same thought (two anecdotes don't make anecdata, I know, but), let me tell you why:
I just don't think there's a market for this here. No one in my age range (mid thirties) or income level (SWE, comfy living in large German tech focused city) would think of buying a Mercedes Benz, let alone an electric one.
For one, these things are expensive especially new, which the electric one would be. If you're looking at it from the young-environmentally-conscious angle, I don't think there's any trust towards Mercedes Benz to be doing this for the right 'reasons,' i.e. not actually caring about the environment, or going about it in a bad way.
They are scramblin' to keep up after sleeping through the electrical car revolution and have nothing new to offer. Their approach and entire business model is deeply entrenched in traditional gas cars.
Even if someone like me could afford the car (due to good job and income matched to levels in expensive city), by living in said city, they wouldn't need a car to go anywhere!
I just don't see people who could afford an electric Mercedes buying one because people like that think global warming is a hoax, hate Greta, and buy diesel cars out of protest.
I'm almost surprised they sold that many cars, actually.
I just don't think there's a market for this here. No one in my age range (mid thirties) or income level (SWE, comfy living in large German tech focused city) would think of buying a Mercedes Benz, let alone an electric one.
For one, these things are expensive especially new, which the electric one would be. If you're looking at it from the young-environmentally-conscious angle, I don't think there's any trust towards Mercedes Benz to be doing this for the right 'reasons,' i.e. not actually caring about the environment, or going about it in a bad way.
They are scramblin' to keep up after sleeping through the electrical car revolution and have nothing new to offer. Their approach and entire business model is deeply entrenched in traditional gas cars.
Even if someone like me could afford the car (due to good job and income matched to levels in expensive city), by living in said city, they wouldn't need a car to go anywhere!
I just don't see people who could afford an electric Mercedes buying one because people like that think global warming is a hoax, hate Greta, and buy diesel cars out of protest.
I'm almost surprised they sold that many cars, actually.
Merc is actually targeting younger buyers with their newer models, like the A class, which is competing against BMW 1 series, and are in the VW Golf segment (pricier than the Golf obviously). Probably more for trust fund kids...
Really that highlights another trend I noticed with rivalry and paradigms and "being on the attack". If they have to bill themselves as the foo-Killer they aren't and will almost certainly fail as they don't establish their own niche even, let alone a good reason to choose them.
I wonder why it is failing /that/ hard though. Failure to deliver value for their money? SUV + Electric not a good fit for the local market?
I wonder why it is failing /that/ hard though. Failure to deliver value for their money? SUV + Electric not a good fit for the local market?
>If they have to bill themselves as the foo-Killer
Who labelled it a Tesla killer? I don't see a source in this article. It's simply a Tesla fan being self-congratulatory.
Who labelled it a Tesla killer? I don't see a source in this article. It's simply a Tesla fan being self-congratulatory.
Why so bothered TSLAQ?
Why are these baseless accusations allowed on this forum? Is this not against the rules?
1. I'm long TSLA, through a couple ETFs.
2. This is projection. There's a constant parade of accusations of "Big oil FUD" whenever someone says anything remotely negative. Meanwhile, it is known that Tesla, and Elon personally, pay PR firms, private investigators and astroturfers (sorry, "social media influencers") to control narrative. Read the lawsuit depositions and financial disclosures.
1. I'm long TSLA, through a couple ETFs.
2. This is projection. There's a constant parade of accusations of "Big oil FUD" whenever someone says anything remotely negative. Meanwhile, it is known that Tesla, and Elon personally, pay PR firms, private investigators and astroturfers (sorry, "social media influencers") to control narrative. Read the lawsuit depositions and financial disclosures.
320Km of range doesn't sound like much especially from a big car that you'd conceivably take on longer trips. And in a not so small country this thing is good for 2h on the Autobahn, assuming that driving at 130-140Km/h yields lower than ideal range.
Electricity is very expensive in Germany, driving electric can actually be more expensive than gasoline cars.
0.30 euro / kwh * 80 kwh = 24 euros to drive 220 miles
220 mi / 16 mpg for GLS 550 (similar size?) = 13 gallons * 5.25 euro/gallon = 72 euro
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_EQC https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/40761.shtml https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Germany/gasoline_prices
220 mi / 16 mpg for GLS 550 (similar size?) = 13 gallons * 5.25 euro/gallon = 72 euro
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_EQC https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/40761.shtml https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Germany/gasoline_prices
I didn't believe the 0.3 Euro / kWh number at first. That's three times the price I pay in Ontario! I thought Germany was a world leader in producing energy...guess not.
"from brown coal". Germany is a world leader in producing energy from brown coal.
"Today, nearly a quarter of all electricity produced in Germany still comes from burning lignite, often called brown coal, one of the dirtiest fossil fuels, making Germany the _world's leader_ in the mining and burning of lignite, according to the International Energy Agency"
"Today, nearly a quarter of all electricity produced in Germany still comes from burning lignite, often called brown coal, one of the dirtiest fossil fuels, making Germany the _world's leader_ in the mining and burning of lignite, according to the International Energy Agency"
I mean, that's not really a fair comparison. EQC is more like the GLC, perhaps GLE at a stretch, and in Germany you'd usually get it with a 220d diesel, those get 40-50mpg easily.
The Model X uses 22.93 kWh/100 km. Electricity is € .31 / KWH. 22.93 * .31 = € 7.1083 / 100 km
The GLC 200d uses 5.2 L/100 km (best efficiency). Diesel is € 1.266/L. 5.2 * 1.266 = € 6.5832 / 100 km
So yea in DE it may be more cost beneficial to drive diesel than electric. If you get a GLC 300 using gasoline it goes up to € 9.798 / 100 km.
The GLC 200d uses 5.2 L/100 km (best efficiency). Diesel is € 1.266/L. 5.2 * 1.266 = € 6.5832 / 100 km
So yea in DE it may be more cost beneficial to drive diesel than electric. If you get a GLC 300 using gasoline it goes up to € 9.798 / 100 km.
I guess it also relies on whether you can get any deal for electricity or not. Here in UK I pay £0.15/kWh, but during the night it goes down to £0.07/kWh. So as long as I can limit charging the car to nighttime, it's actually very very cheap.
GLC is a much smaller vehicle than Model X.
Indeed. Which is enough to put electricity at par or even more expensive than ICE vehicles.
Germany is also densely populated, which means many can't charge at home and might need to pay a higher rate for electricity somewhere else.
Germany is also densely populated, which means many can't charge at home and might need to pay a higher rate for electricity somewhere else.
If that was the reason, Tesla wouldn't be selling there either. For whatever reason, the market has decided that Tesla is preferable to Mercedes.
Tesla is not topping the charts in German EV sales so Tesla versus Mercedes is not the relevant comparison:
http://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2019/12/germany-november-2019.h...
I'd say the Volkswagen ID.3 will top the German EV market this year. It'll be interesting to see its sales figures at year end.
http://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2019/12/germany-november-2019.h...
I'd say the Volkswagen ID.3 will top the German EV market this year. It'll be interesting to see its sales figures at year end.
What is the "Dutch market black-hole effect" that that article keeps talking about? Is demand for electric cars in Netherland so high that it absorbs all electric cars that get close to it?
Dutch subsidies for EVs have changed and are now being reduced year by year starting this year. There was an increase in EV purchases last year to get the maximum subsidy.