Paris syndrome(en.wikipedia.org)
en.wikipedia.org
Paris syndrome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome
175 comments
> Plus you’ll be able to see the Eiffel Tower
A story about Guy de Maupassant always makes me smile. He hated the Eiffel Tower (“I left Paris and even France because in the end, the Eiffel Tower annoyed me too much”) and yet supposedly ate lunch there every day. Why? Because it’s the only place in Paris where you can’t see the Eiffel Tower.
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/09/20/priority-french-wr...
A story about Guy de Maupassant always makes me smile. He hated the Eiffel Tower (“I left Paris and even France because in the end, the Eiffel Tower annoyed me too much”) and yet supposedly ate lunch there every day. Why? Because it’s the only place in Paris where you can’t see the Eiffel Tower.
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/09/20/priority-french-wr...
Seconded about Tour Montparnasse. The Tour Eiffel has become an expensive, crowded, dangerous nightmare. You have to go through airport-level security just to approach it, and going up requires previous reservations or waiting in very long lines. Tour Montparnasse is as pleasant as Tour Eiffel was 20 years ago. Tip: Go just before sunset and stay at the top as the sun goes down. Paris is loveliest during the sunset transition.
"I love Paris, but what shocks me every time I go back is the quantity of dog poop (and also trash) in the streets and the inability of city officials to do anything about it."
Is the amount of dog poop in Paris even worse than in Berlin? I cannot imagine that.
Is the amount of dog poop in Paris even worse than in Berlin? I cannot imagine that.
As a Berliner, dog poop (like litter in general) is very localized. There are large parts of Berlin (especially in the south west) that are very clean and if you e.g. live in Zehlendorf and work in the nice/wealthy parts of Charlottenburg you will not be overwhelmed by dog poop and grime.
I would also recommend not being too loud, French people usually are pretty quiet in restaurants or public spaces, and being loud is frowned upon.
> French people usually are pretty quiet
It's not just French people. American tourists have a reputation in many countries for being annoyingly loud.
It's not just French people. American tourists have a reputation in many countries for being annoyingly loud.
An American colleague sent his children (7 years old ish) to the British International school on a foreign assignment, as there was no American school in the city.
The teacher sometimes asked the children were to "use their one metre voice".
The teacher sometimes asked the children were to "use their one metre voice".
As a European I'm still shocked at how loud Americans are. I cannot stay more than a couple minutes in an American bar or pub
Same, it's pretty rough.
You might have only been to higher-end restaurants, and not the "good ol' french" types that are as much about the atmosphere as they are about the food. The kind of thing I could only name as "à la bonne franquette".
For a representative sample of the kind of place I'm talking about, try 'Chez Gladines' in the 13th arrondissement.
I have worn my earplugs (still carried from the flight that morning) in a Paris restaurant where the locals were watching the football.
It was a great atmosphere, but I was glad when the waiter asked us to swap tables to the other room — he rearranged all the noisy people into one room, and the quiet ones into the other.
It was a great atmosphere, but I was glad when the waiter asked us to swap tables to the other room — he rearranged all the noisy people into one room, and the quiet ones into the other.
Not true in the South of France. Boisterous, fun, loud.
> quantity of dog poop
You should checkout San Francisco, it's not only dog poop here though ;)
In all seriousness, I'm Married to a French woman, lived in France for a little while. Paris is my favorite city, followed by Tokyo probably
PS: Last time I visited the Eiffel Tower I was 4 years old.
You should checkout San Francisco, it's not only dog poop here though ;)
In all seriousness, I'm Married to a French woman, lived in France for a little while. Paris is my favorite city, followed by Tokyo probably
PS: Last time I visited the Eiffel Tower I was 4 years old.
This advice on the Tour Maine-Montparnasse reminds me of my advice to people visiting New York City:
- Touring the Statue of Liberty is a great experience, but if you just want to see it, then the Staten Island Ferry has a great view of it, and it's free to and from Staten Island
- The view from the Empire State Building is amazing, but if you instead go to the top of 30 Rockefeller Plaza, then you get to see the Empire State Building and Chrysler Buildings, and in general get a better experience.
- Touring the Statue of Liberty is a great experience, but if you just want to see it, then the Staten Island Ferry has a great view of it, and it's free to and from Staten Island
- The view from the Empire State Building is amazing, but if you instead go to the top of 30 Rockefeller Plaza, then you get to see the Empire State Building and Chrysler Buildings, and in general get a better experience.
Eiffel Tower in summer was fine, even when Paris was ridiculously hot.
It is so iconic that I think folks should do it.
Also, highly recommend waking up at dawn and visiting Trocadero. The views of the Eiffel Tower are just ridiculous amazing: https://www.danaberez.com/paris-instagram-spots/
Our family (8, 5, 5, myself and wife) had a very good time last summer as Paris tourists (with day trip to Versailles — grounds better than palace tour).
Paris also has Uber, so traveling around isn’t difficult even if you don’t speak French.
It is so iconic that I think folks should do it.
Also, highly recommend waking up at dawn and visiting Trocadero. The views of the Eiffel Tower are just ridiculous amazing: https://www.danaberez.com/paris-instagram-spots/
Our family (8, 5, 5, myself and wife) had a very good time last summer as Paris tourists (with day trip to Versailles — grounds better than palace tour).
Paris also has Uber, so traveling around isn’t difficult even if you don’t speak French.
This is my milage, been there 5 times. I agree with the salutations. Just learning a few lines of French goes a long way of the locals liking you. They truly appreciate the effort and was able to have quite a few conversations and even was invited to a night into town, it was fun to experience Paris through the eyes of a local.
Hang on. Why is everyone talking about dirty Paris streets and not about the claim that unrealistic expectations can result in literal psychosis?
Surely this kind of mind-body connection would suggest further investigation, inform policy on deceptive advertising, etc.
Humans like to talk, so if we don't have anything to say about one topic, we'll change it to what we do have something to say about. All we need is a path of associations from A to B. The way to get there is first to switch to a generic superset of the topic (Paris Syndrome -> Paris), i.e. go to Central Station, and from there hop on a train to something you have opinions/feelings about (Paris -> Dirty streets in Paris). In this case the path was also plausible because the OP references tourism. But at least the comments here are talking from personal experience, rather than going into generic ideology, which is worse (and did flare up in a spot or two).
Hopping to more generic subjects makes threads less interesting, because the larger a topic is, the fewer unpredictable things there are to say about it. Even if one comment manages to say something unpredictable, the replies quickly revert to predictable things. The most-commonly-repeated arguments have accrued so much mass that no discussion can resist their pull. Therefore, one rule that has developed on HN over the years is to resist generic tangents: they are antithetical to curiosity. Curiosity likes to look around and see something new and specific; generic tangents are powered by emotional energy that wants to talk about something old and familiar.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
Edit: This is a medium-is-the-message thing. A large, flat, open forum like HN can't discuss generic topics well, because of the mass effect I mentioned above. For such discussions to be interesting requires longer (for depth) and more individual (to stay on track) genres. An essay at least, if not a book.
Hopping to more generic subjects makes threads less interesting, because the larger a topic is, the fewer unpredictable things there are to say about it. Even if one comment manages to say something unpredictable, the replies quickly revert to predictable things. The most-commonly-repeated arguments have accrued so much mass that no discussion can resist their pull. Therefore, one rule that has developed on HN over the years is to resist generic tangents: they are antithetical to curiosity. Curiosity likes to look around and see something new and specific; generic tangents are powered by emotional energy that wants to talk about something old and familiar.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
Edit: This is a medium-is-the-message thing. A large, flat, open forum like HN can't discuss generic topics well, because of the mass effect I mentioned above. For such discussions to be interesting requires longer (for depth) and more individual (to stay on track) genres. An essay at least, if not a book.
IMO it's also really obscure, 20 in 6 million.
That's about 0.0000003 chance.
Isn't there a base rate? If anyone does something anything new that's as big as visiting Paris while coming from Japan, then I'd venture to guess that 1 in 6 million will get a psychiatric disorder. I mean, the chance is so low that I dare to guess that it might be the base rate.
That's about 0.0000003 chance.
Isn't there a base rate? If anyone does something anything new that's as big as visiting Paris while coming from Japan, then I'd venture to guess that 1 in 6 million will get a psychiatric disorder. I mean, the chance is so low that I dare to guess that it might be the base rate.
It's probably limited to people who are only able to endure life because they entertain a fantasy of Paris as a heaven of sorts. You can endure almost anything if you have hope, and some people daydream about a better life elsewhere or a perfect place they will visit one day. Then they finally go on their voyage and realize their life in Paris is still shit but made up of higher percentage of dog shit, and they just crack.
But yeah this only justifies a wikipedia article because we have memed it because it is funny.
But yeah this only justifies a wikipedia article because we have memed it because it is funny.
I suspect this started as an April 1st. joke.
We went to Paris in a rainy November, took public transit exclusively and stayed in a building with an elevator that could fit one suitcase, by itself, and a shower about the same size. We saw some homelessness and scams.
And yet it was absolutely lovely. I could talk endlessly about the people, the sites, the food (and hardly just French food) and the museums. I'm sort of dumbfounded at people who can't see that.
No one was rude to us, even outside of tourist areas, mostly just professional.
Of course it's not Disneyland. We had to learn language basics, checkout travel books and scour the internet. I think this gave us rational expectations.
Semi-related, I live in Portland, OR which has a similar climate, possibly similar civic challenges and interestingly, a similar fascination from Japan.
https://www.wweek.com/we-went-to-japan/
Oregon even uses Japanese style animation in ads, presumably because of that.
https://m.youtube.com/user/oregon
And yet it was absolutely lovely. I could talk endlessly about the people, the sites, the food (and hardly just French food) and the museums. I'm sort of dumbfounded at people who can't see that.
No one was rude to us, even outside of tourist areas, mostly just professional.
Of course it's not Disneyland. We had to learn language basics, checkout travel books and scour the internet. I think this gave us rational expectations.
Semi-related, I live in Portland, OR which has a similar climate, possibly similar civic challenges and interestingly, a similar fascination from Japan.
https://www.wweek.com/we-went-to-japan/
Oregon even uses Japanese style animation in ads, presumably because of that.
https://m.youtube.com/user/oregon
Meh... in every city it depends on the place you visit. San Francisco is horrible due to the extreme amount of homeless, addict and crazy people (I got harassed by one of them in my last visit). Ney York people are assholes (they just shout at you and mock you as tourist when you ask for directions). London was really nice.. but of course I'm talking about Hyde park and surroundings. Liverpool is beautiful, just dont go to Kensington. Paris for me was nice: very dirty but Sacre Cour and Champs Elysees walk was nice. Berlin also very nice.. somewhat messy and full of tourists (me being among them of course).
Mexico city is freaking ugly 90%. And insecure, but if you go to the centre or Santa Fe , you will have a nice experience...
Mexico city is freaking ugly 90%. And insecure, but if you go to the centre or Santa Fe , you will have a nice experience...
yes if you visit San Francisco first, then Paris, then Paris seems lovely.
Very interesting, I had the opposite effect.
I grew up in a very “red” part of the US and was given a very negative view of the French (or anyone else for that matter). I was so surprised to find the people were friendly, kind and inviting. A small French restaurant even stayed open late because my friend and I had just arrived in Paris and had no idea of where to find food.
The city struck me as beautiful. Everything was so clean and manicured (my town by comparison was dirty, dusty and unkempt).
Paris destroyed my sense of exceptionalism.
I grew up in a very “red” part of the US and was given a very negative view of the French (or anyone else for that matter). I was so surprised to find the people were friendly, kind and inviting. A small French restaurant even stayed open late because my friend and I had just arrived in Paris and had no idea of where to find food.
The city struck me as beautiful. Everything was so clean and manicured (my town by comparison was dirty, dusty and unkempt).
Paris destroyed my sense of exceptionalism.
That’s funny, because Paris in general is pretty dirty city compared to other European cities.
I grew up in a "blue" part, and visiting third world countries opened my eyes to, "maybe there is something we are doing right in the US".
(The exaggerated liberal perspective being, we're doing it all wrong & screwing everything up. The exaggerated conservative perspective being, we are perfect and changing anything risks ruining everything)
(The exaggerated liberal perspective being, we're doing it all wrong & screwing everything up. The exaggerated conservative perspective being, we are perfect and changing anything risks ruining everything)
You may do many things right in the US, except the fact that you still rank the countries into first, second and third!
I somehow had the opposite effect too. I grew up in Eastern Europe, and people told me Paris is beautiful, but not necessarily more beautiful than, say New York City, or other western big cities. Well, once I visited Paris, I loved it so much, that I can't find any other city that compares with it.
If you think Paris is clean, you'd probably get Tokyo syndrome if you visit there.
So clean and manicured? I am not sure what part of Paris you were in, but having lived in France for 4 years, “clean and manicured” is about the opposite of what reality is. Dog shit on side walks, people urinating in public, cars parking on sidewalks, crowded, often un-air conditioned subway trains packed with sweaty people, dingy hotel rooms, trash piled up on sidewalks, rats traveling in packs, pickpockets, prevail any graffiti.. Paris is a spectacular city with some incredible beauty, but “clean and manicured,” is a stretch outside of the marquee parks and well scrubbed tourist sites.
As far as your good experience with a restaurant, those experiences certainly happen, but try going into a bank five minutes before lunch. Or try to enter a grocery store 10 minutes before closing.. or even many restaurants; your experience was a pleasant exception, but let’s be careful not to judge a city based on a single happy experience — I would be willing to bet in your “red” area of the United States, visitors could argue similar instances of unexpected kindnesses. Humanity is generally good, but we always see the grass as being greener.. Also comparing a world class tourist city to your town is a bit unfair, plenty of blight all over France. Travel 30 minutes north of Paris and it looks like a third world country in many places. But on the French: they can be kind and inviting, no question, but for a real treat, travel to the south of France.
Zürich on the other hand is very clean, very orderly, very manicured. Vienna as well.
As far as your good experience with a restaurant, those experiences certainly happen, but try going into a bank five minutes before lunch. Or try to enter a grocery store 10 minutes before closing.. or even many restaurants; your experience was a pleasant exception, but let’s be careful not to judge a city based on a single happy experience — I would be willing to bet in your “red” area of the United States, visitors could argue similar instances of unexpected kindnesses. Humanity is generally good, but we always see the grass as being greener.. Also comparing a world class tourist city to your town is a bit unfair, plenty of blight all over France. Travel 30 minutes north of Paris and it looks like a third world country in many places. But on the French: they can be kind and inviting, no question, but for a real treat, travel to the south of France.
Zürich on the other hand is very clean, very orderly, very manicured. Vienna as well.
What you describe in the first paragraph accurately describes Beverly Hills. American cities are not spectacular, so with an American perspective, Paris is a big step up.
>American cities are not spectacular
Beverly Hills isn't a "city". NYC isn't spectacular?
> Paris is a big step up.
I didn't feel it was a big step up from NYC - especially given the hype that paris has.
Beverly Hills isn't a "city". NYC isn't spectacular?
> Paris is a big step up.
I didn't feel it was a big step up from NYC - especially given the hype that paris has.
> I grew up in a very “red” part of the US and was given a very negative view of the French (or anyone else for that matter).
Why make it political? What does "red" have to do with it. American exceptionalism is an national traditional. Do you think all the movies and tv shows making fun of the french came from a very "red" part of the US? Last I check NY and LA weren't very "red".
> The city struck me as beautiful. Everything was so clean and manicured (my town by comparison was dirty, dusty and unkempt).
Are you sure it was paris and not another european city you were in? Parts of Paris is beautiful for sure, but I've never heard anyone describe it as "so clean and manicured". At least those aren't the words I'd use to describe Paris having visited it.
> (my town by comparison was dirty, dusty and unkempt). Paris destroyed my sense of exceptionalism.
If you were from a small town in a very "red" part of the US, any medium sized city anywhere would have cured you of your sense of exceptionalism.
Why make it political? What does "red" have to do with it. American exceptionalism is an national traditional. Do you think all the movies and tv shows making fun of the french came from a very "red" part of the US? Last I check NY and LA weren't very "red".
> The city struck me as beautiful. Everything was so clean and manicured (my town by comparison was dirty, dusty and unkempt).
Are you sure it was paris and not another european city you were in? Parts of Paris is beautiful for sure, but I've never heard anyone describe it as "so clean and manicured". At least those aren't the words I'd use to describe Paris having visited it.
> (my town by comparison was dirty, dusty and unkempt). Paris destroyed my sense of exceptionalism.
If you were from a small town in a very "red" part of the US, any medium sized city anywhere would have cured you of your sense of exceptionalism.
I've lived in a few big cities but Paris definitely is very different to the others. There are moments when it's like the depictions in the films: quiet boulevards lined with Haussmann apartments sitting ontop of quaint boulangeries. I think this is why it's such a shock when you're faced with the rest of it which is dirty, smelly, noisy, home to 10 million people filled with scam artists and impatient Parisians.
Paris reminds me a lot of San Francisco. Both have world class neighborhoods but also areas that are pretty awful (homelessness, crime, trash, etc.) Personally I find Paris very similar to navigate. The not-do-good parts do not seem much different from the Tenderloin in SF and require the same attention to surroundings.
I’ve also lived in SF and believe me, the problem is entirely different. It’s just a different scale.
We’re not talking about having « diverse neighborhoods » or « sketchy neighborhoods » ( it’s part of the fun of living in a big city). Actually i’ve lived a huge part of my life in those neighborhoods, and criminality isn’t such a big problem (although things are very very different if you’re a girl).
The most pressing matter for the country is the cultural gap between very large parts of the whole french population (not just a district or a city).
The country is currently facing an identity crisis and the fact that overtly racists political parties are close to winning every election should be a sign that something’s going really bad there.
Unfortunately the debate is completely crippled by people who refuse to address the issue like grown ups ( either by calling everyone a racist, or by actually being racist)
We’re not talking about having « diverse neighborhoods » or « sketchy neighborhoods » ( it’s part of the fun of living in a big city). Actually i’ve lived a huge part of my life in those neighborhoods, and criminality isn’t such a big problem (although things are very very different if you’re a girl).
The most pressing matter for the country is the cultural gap between very large parts of the whole french population (not just a district or a city).
The country is currently facing an identity crisis and the fact that overtly racists political parties are close to winning every election should be a sign that something’s going really bad there.
Unfortunately the debate is completely crippled by people who refuse to address the issue like grown ups ( either by calling everyone a racist, or by actually being racist)
I thought the people in Paris were surprisingly nice. (I speak a bit of French, and in my experience people were very friendly if you at least tried to communicate in French to begin with.) That said, Parisian bathrooms give me nightmares. The only place outside of Bangladesh where I’ve seen squat toilets.
You may find squat toilets along the autoroute in resting areas without restaurants and gas station, and maybe at some campings, but I've never seen any in a bar or restaurant, let alone a hotel.
> I thought the people in Paris were surprisingly nice.
I've had extremes. Either very rude, or unreasonably nice and friendly. Paris has 10 million people around, so there must be some very good people. But the average guy you'll hit on the street is probably going to be a mediocre experience.
I've had extremes. Either very rude, or unreasonably nice and friendly. Paris has 10 million people around, so there must be some very good people. But the average guy you'll hit on the street is probably going to be a mediocre experience.
Squat toilets permit a straighter path for stool to pass through: https://stat.ameba.jp/user_images/20180115/02/r-m-hiro/8f/e2...
Here is a study that confirms this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12870773
Did Parisians continue speaking to you in French? I found that they immediately switched to English when I spoke French to them. I'm level B1, what level would you say you are/how many years of instruction have you got?
Here is a study that confirms this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12870773
Did Parisians continue speaking to you in French? I found that they immediately switched to English when I spoke French to them. I'm level B1, what level would you say you are/how many years of instruction have you got?
> Did Parisians continue speaking to you in French? I found that they immediately switched to English when I spoke French to them.
I've found this to be the case too. But their English is almost always better than my French. I've found that attempting French does produce a much more friendly response than just going in an speaking English loudly.
I've found this to be the case too. But their English is almost always better than my French. I've found that attempting French does produce a much more friendly response than just going in an speaking English loudly.
let’s be honest. Paris center is really great, but all the rest is trash by any standard (not even the japanese one).
And i’m not even talking about suburbs, which people coming from the airport must go through. People are absolutely not what you’d expect french to look like ( and i’m not talking about size), public transport are a total trash, working only half the time correctly.. Restrooms makes us look like a third world country, etc.
I could go on and on , but i’ll just sum it up with one anecdote : i spent a month in japan, and this is the first time in my life i felt ashamed of the way we treat tourists in Paris. Food in touristic places is garbage, people are generally rude, etc etc..
My advice if you want to visit paris : rent something nice in the center, and take a cab straight from the aiport, and make the ride by night.
And i’m not even talking about suburbs, which people coming from the airport must go through. People are absolutely not what you’d expect french to look like ( and i’m not talking about size), public transport are a total trash, working only half the time correctly.. Restrooms makes us look like a third world country, etc.
I could go on and on , but i’ll just sum it up with one anecdote : i spent a month in japan, and this is the first time in my life i felt ashamed of the way we treat tourists in Paris. Food in touristic places is garbage, people are generally rude, etc etc..
My advice if you want to visit paris : rent something nice in the center, and take a cab straight from the aiport, and make the ride by night.
I think you're being downvoted for having a negative viewpoint, but what you said is very accurate. I'm not French, but I've spent some time in France and loved it. France is a gorgeous country and people were generally friendly and welcoming, Paris is the exception. There are parts of Paris which are nice, but a significant chunk of the city is exceptionally dreary (partly due to architectural design, heavy use of brutalism, etc), dirty, and many people I encountered in Paris were very rude to me, even before I opened my mouth.
I've traveled all over the world, Paris is not anywhere near that bad compared to many places I've been, and generally I enjoy most places I spend time in because there's something positive to be found everywhere. But I wanted to reinforce your viewpoint, because it is not inaccurate, even though I find it to be somewhat one-sided. I don't believe sharing this deserves downvotes, especially in the context of the link.
I've traveled all over the world, Paris is not anywhere near that bad compared to many places I've been, and generally I enjoy most places I spend time in because there's something positive to be found everywhere. But I wanted to reinforce your viewpoint, because it is not inaccurate, even though I find it to be somewhat one-sided. I don't believe sharing this deserves downvotes, especially in the context of the link.
ivanbakel(5)
Completely agree. I've been to both Paris and Tokyo in the past year. In Paris we took extreme precautions with our belongings and we still got pickpocket attempts on the subway (fortunately none successful). In Tokyo of course we just took zero precautions because crime against tourists is virtually unheard-of (with the possible exception of Roppongi after dark, where the level of caution you need is still 1/10 that of any neighborhood of Paris.) I'm very sad about how stressed I felt on my last trip to Paris and how unfriendly it seems now. I'll probably never go back.
tokyo is definitely one of the best cities in the world. i can only think of sidney as a competitor in quality of life. no european city comes close.
Osaka has a lot to be said for it too. It has as much culture as Tokyo but the pace and energy are dialed back a bit. There are also fewer English speakers and the signage doesn't use as much Romaji, so your Japanese skills need to be a little sharper.
I'm french and indeed I would not recommend someone to go to Paris. There are much nicer cities here (Bordeaux, Montpellier, are some examples.)
Also: send your tourists to San Francisco, we have even lower standards here :D
Also: send your tourists to San Francisco, we have even lower standards here :D
I really like Montpellier, but just like with Paris (on a much, much smaller scale of course), the center is really nice, but not so much for the rest of the city.
I think that's the case with most French cities. Nice centers but the surroundings are average at best. An exception would be Marseille, it is filthy even in the center ;).
I think that's the case with most French cities. Nice centers but the surroundings are average at best. An exception would be Marseille, it is filthy even in the center ;).
Yeah that's pretty much the design of French cities (and maybe European cities to an extent). The center is great, around the center is meh, suburbs are to be avoided. Very different from the typical American city.
Have you ever been to Los Angeles? I love it but it is pretty gritty. Poke around with street view. Paris is a utopia in comparison--the metro map looks like a kid scribbled with crayons there are so many lines. American standards are pretty low.
I'd seen this Paris syndrome thing a number of times before visiting over the past year. It set my expectations low enough that it paradoxically helped make my visit a delight.
People were delightful. Streets were clean enough. The subway system was older but functional and fine. It felt like any large city that wasn't built in the past 20 years (e.g. Shanghai) and has history and a broad demographic. It had the gritty underside of any large, bustling city, and many of the faults I could equally apply to London, NYC, and other major cities.
Loved it. Plan on going again. I never felt unsafe or uncomfortable, and was always in awe of the beauty and history.
People were delightful. Streets were clean enough. The subway system was older but functional and fine. It felt like any large city that wasn't built in the past 20 years (e.g. Shanghai) and has history and a broad demographic. It had the gritty underside of any large, bustling city, and many of the faults I could equally apply to London, NYC, and other major cities.
Loved it. Plan on going again. I never felt unsafe or uncomfortable, and was always in awe of the beauty and history.
Potentially Paris current mayor wants to turn the city into a mostly car free place. That might change a lot of the mentality. Let's review this syndrome in ~2025.
As other people say, medium sized cities are gentler, and countryside is friendlier.
e.g: was lost in a small town, and after roaming around in front of some tiny store, the cashier came out proposing to help me. I didn't even try to ask her from outside, she naturally took the initiative.
As other people say, medium sized cities are gentler, and countryside is friendlier.
e.g: was lost in a small town, and after roaming around in front of some tiny store, the cashier came out proposing to help me. I didn't even try to ask her from outside, she naturally took the initiative.
What do visitors expect Paris to be like? What do they find instead? The article is missing this critical piece of information.
I guess it's expected to be self-evident.
Expectation of Paris: "the city of light", "the city of love", the home of iconic structures such as the Eiffel Tower, home of fashion, moulin rouge
Reality of Paris: construction, traffic, fences, security, getting scammed on the street... a normal city
Expectation of Paris: "the city of light", "the city of love", the home of iconic structures such as the Eiffel Tower, home of fashion, moulin rouge
Reality of Paris: construction, traffic, fences, security, getting scammed on the street... a normal city
But the food is pretty great.
> Many of the visitors come with a deeply romantic vision of Paris - the cobbled streets, as seen in the film Amelie, the beauty of French women or the high culture and art at the Louvre.
> The reality can come as a shock.
> An encounter with a rude taxi driver, or a Parisian waiter who shouts at customers who cannot speak fluent French, might be laughed off by those from other Western cultures.
> But for the Japanese - used to a more polite and helpful society in which voices are rarely raised in anger - the experience of their dream city turning into a nightmare can simply be too much.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6197921.stm
> The reality can come as a shock.
> An encounter with a rude taxi driver, or a Parisian waiter who shouts at customers who cannot speak fluent French, might be laughed off by those from other Western cultures.
> But for the Japanese - used to a more polite and helpful society in which voices are rarely raised in anger - the experience of their dream city turning into a nightmare can simply be too much.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6197921.stm
> 20 per cent of people living in the city of Paris are immigrants and 41.3 per cent of people under 20 have at least one immigrant parent.
Wow - that's a very fast demographic change.
Wow - that's a very fast demographic change.
Capitals tend to attrack most inmigration. As an anecdote, my son's primary class in Madrid had more than a third of inmigrant parents, including Russia, Iran, South America (most) and Morocco.
The question, at least for me, is not where you come from, but how well can you integrate. Latins have it easier because we share the language.
The question, at least for me, is not where you come from, but how well can you integrate. Latins have it easier because we share the language.
Not all capitals - it is a question of policy. Tokyo, for instance, seems to be very different.
Interesting. So in Japan people inmigrate more uniformly?
In Spain is just a matter of opportunities. It's easier to find a job in big cities.
In Spain is just a matter of opportunities. It's easier to find a job in big cities.
Japan has very little immigration when compared to other countries. In 2015 ~2% of the population was from immigrants. The USA for comparison, has a 14.5% rate (+/- a few tenths, I'm pulling that from memory.)
Nah, as far as I know there is no such policy:
https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00398/the-changing-fac...
https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00398/the-changing-fac...
12% in the most foreign-populated area still seems very low by European standards. Given that a lot of the foreigners are Chinese and Korean, to the European eye it looks even more homogeneous than that.
Seine-Saint-Denis, for comparison, had 27% residents born outside Metropolitan France, and that was in 1999. Marseille is 25% muslim.
Seine-Saint-Denis, for comparison, had 27% residents born outside Metropolitan France, and that was in 1999. Marseille is 25% muslim.
- "Capitals tend to attrack [sic] most inmigration."
- "Not all capitals - it is a question of policy."
- "Interesting. So in Japan people inmigrate [sic] more uniformly?"
... then you don't answer but proceed to compare capitals of the world to each other. I thought we were comparing countryside immigration to capitals vs to the rest of the country. Not between countries.
- "Not all capitals - it is a question of policy."
- "Interesting. So in Japan people inmigrate [sic] more uniformly?"
... then you don't answer but proceed to compare capitals of the world to each other. I thought we were comparing countryside immigration to capitals vs to the rest of the country. Not between countries.
But narag was talking about immigration between countries: "...had more than a third of inmigrant parents, including Russia, Iran, South America (most) and Morocco". I understood narag's point as "that's a fast demographic change, but inevitable in any modern large capital city, as capitals tend to attract immigration".
My counterpoint was that there is nothing inevitable about it, and that it is a policy choice. Tokyo is a very large, very modern city with a massive economy, yet it has a very modest foreign population and is recognizably Japanese almost everywhere you go (which results in being really safe even at night, almost completely litter-free, and certainly a great experience of Japan for a visiting tourist).
My counterpoint was that there is nothing inevitable about it, and that it is a policy choice. Tokyo is a very large, very modern city with a massive economy, yet it has a very modest foreign population and is recognizably Japanese almost everywhere you go (which results in being really safe even at night, almost completely litter-free, and certainly a great experience of Japan for a visiting tourist).
A misunderstanding then. I just meant the difference between big cities and the rest, similar to Paris/rest of France.
The difference you meant was between Spain and Japan. Only 14 km of sea separate our mainland from Africa, with little boats full of desperate people crossing every day. Also we have two towns in continental Africa with land borders with Morocco where border barriers are sometimes just rammed.
But that's just the most dramatic side of it. Most immigrants simply cross the borders as tourists and stay for work. I guess Japan is a little different.
FWIW, Madrid is very safe at night. Only a few neighborhoods, far from downtown, are dangerous.
Edit: immigrant, note taken. Inmigrante in Spanish.
The difference you meant was between Spain and Japan. Only 14 km of sea separate our mainland from Africa, with little boats full of desperate people crossing every day. Also we have two towns in continental Africa with land borders with Morocco where border barriers are sometimes just rammed.
But that's just the most dramatic side of it. Most immigrants simply cross the borders as tourists and stay for work. I guess Japan is a little different.
FWIW, Madrid is very safe at night. Only a few neighborhoods, far from downtown, are dangerous.
Edit: immigrant, note taken. Inmigrante in Spanish.
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It specifically says towards the bottom that in Japanese magazines, they depict Paris as being filled with people so thin they look like stick figures and that only wear high class fashion.
Idk about high class fashion, but I thought everyone in Paris dressed surprisingly nice. Scarves everywhere lol. Even people wearing sweatpants seemed put together with planned outfits.
Paris is a big city, that's all. The Eiffel Tower and Moulin Rouge are not among the most interesting things to see in Paris. People are not like in a Disney movie.
I'm surprised no-one so far in the comments mentioned the smell of piss in the streets - has that changed? Seems like it must have. I was there in the mid 80s.
I loved it. Particularly amazing melt-in-your-mouth croissants for breakfast and delicious huge (almost apple-sized) strawberries bought by the kilo. And the art and architecture, of course.
I loved it. Particularly amazing melt-in-your-mouth croissants for breakfast and delicious huge (almost apple-sized) strawberries bought by the kilo. And the art and architecture, of course.
Happened to me too, once! I remember passing by the Moulin Rouge, which I imagined like this:
https://cdn.civitatis.com/francia/paris/entradas-moulin-roug...
But instead I saw something like this:
https://dimg02.c-ctrip.com/images/100k1900000162nrc547D_Z_64...
(Plus dirt, bad smell, etc.)
But in general, Paris is a beautiful city with many really nice places. Can be very inspiring for a short stay.
https://cdn.civitatis.com/francia/paris/entradas-moulin-roug...
But instead I saw something like this:
https://dimg02.c-ctrip.com/images/100k1900000162nrc547D_Z_64...
(Plus dirt, bad smell, etc.)
But in general, Paris is a beautiful city with many really nice places. Can be very inspiring for a short stay.
I've had this reaction to working in some large corporations
I went in thinking it would be just amazing and expecting an exemplary brand experience only to land in HR hell with some dirty scoundrel managers and rampant corruption all through the ranks compounded by lame duck self-dealing executives
I eventually had to be airlifted out after a bad reaction similar to a psychotic break
People it doesn't have to be this way!
I went in thinking it would be just amazing and expecting an exemplary brand experience only to land in HR hell with some dirty scoundrel managers and rampant corruption all through the ranks compounded by lame duck self-dealing executives
I eventually had to be airlifted out after a bad reaction similar to a psychotic break
People it doesn't have to be this way!
Paris has some iconic landmarks but other than that I find it's a very unpleasant and ugly city.
If you want to see a beautiful imperial and romantic type of city go to Vienna.
If you want to see a beautiful imperial and romantic type of city go to Vienna.
Paris syndrome is fake news :
https://web.archive.org/web/20110719120910/http://www.aphp.f...
"No, because if these people looked good in their own skin, it was only an appearance. Indeed, they already had slight mood disorders, or a general malaise, but which remained unexplained or unconscious. "During the consultation, there is often a history that goes unnoticed, which neither the patient nor those around him or her have been aware of. At that time, these people were somehow predisposed to psychic decompensation," explains Dr. Mahmoudia. And all it takes is a triggering factor for the pathology to reveal itself. Also, being in an unfamiliar environment can lead to a distressing experience and reveal certain disorders. However, the journey is not the only revelation. "The same type of disorder can also occur at home, following a completely different traumatic event such as the loss of a job, a break-up with a loved one, or an assault," adds Dr. Mahmoudia. But in the context of a trip, what would have been a "banal" depression takes on a much more dramatic expression.
In a second case, rare and more serious, the trip is part of the patient's delirium, it is part of a pre-existing psychiatric pathology. It is then described as a "pathological journey". Dr. Mahmoudia remembers this Japanese woman brought to the emergency room for behavioural disorders. "From Tokyo she said she heard the voice of the Virgin Mary begging her to come in front of the Notre-Dame de Paris church. In such a situation, the patient obeys the orders of a voice that he hears, but which is hallucinatory in nature and actually belongs to his own delirium. In other situations, the journey becomes an escape, a survival instinct. "Some patients have only one idea in mind: to flee at all costs from the haunting voice that persecutes them and prevents them from sleeping. Travel can therefore be a symptom, among others, of a pathology that is already known. "The journey then becomes part of a delirious process that belongs to the patient's psychiatric picture," concludes Dr. Mahmoudia.
These two situations are different. In one case, the journey is part of the patient's delirium, in the other, it is the triggering event of his pathology. But in both situations, Dr. Mahmoudia prefers to speak of pathological travel or travel-related psychopathology, rather than traveller's syndrome. The latter term is used incorrectly, as it originally defines a completely different situation. Also called "Stendhal syndrome", the traveller's syndrome is actually a state of ecstasy accompanied by a strong emotional charge when in contact with a work of art. This experience remains quite rare and affects the most sensitive souls. Their heart accelerates, they are taken by vertigo, they suffocate. And then they quickly come to their senses. This emotion is not a real psychological disorder and therefore does not lead to any particular treatment. It was Graziella Magherini, a Florentine psychiatrist who, in 1990, described for the first time this surprising syndrome linked to travelling in art cities. Surprised to receive emotionally shocked tourists, she wondered about the effects of an artistic overdose. She then made a link with Stendhal's travel diaries, which in 1817, on leaving the church of Santa Croce in Florence, reported: "I had arrived at that point of emotion where the heavenly sensations given by the Fine Arts and passionate feelings meet. On leaving Santa Croce, I had a heartbeat, life was exhausted at home, I walked with the fear of falling". These are certainly moving words, but they are not comparable to the emergency cases that Dr. Mahmoudia is able to meet in his consultation."
https://web.archive.org/web/20110719120910/http://www.aphp.f...
"No, because if these people looked good in their own skin, it was only an appearance. Indeed, they already had slight mood disorders, or a general malaise, but which remained unexplained or unconscious. "During the consultation, there is often a history that goes unnoticed, which neither the patient nor those around him or her have been aware of. At that time, these people were somehow predisposed to psychic decompensation," explains Dr. Mahmoudia. And all it takes is a triggering factor for the pathology to reveal itself. Also, being in an unfamiliar environment can lead to a distressing experience and reveal certain disorders. However, the journey is not the only revelation. "The same type of disorder can also occur at home, following a completely different traumatic event such as the loss of a job, a break-up with a loved one, or an assault," adds Dr. Mahmoudia. But in the context of a trip, what would have been a "banal" depression takes on a much more dramatic expression.
In a second case, rare and more serious, the trip is part of the patient's delirium, it is part of a pre-existing psychiatric pathology. It is then described as a "pathological journey". Dr. Mahmoudia remembers this Japanese woman brought to the emergency room for behavioural disorders. "From Tokyo she said she heard the voice of the Virgin Mary begging her to come in front of the Notre-Dame de Paris church. In such a situation, the patient obeys the orders of a voice that he hears, but which is hallucinatory in nature and actually belongs to his own delirium. In other situations, the journey becomes an escape, a survival instinct. "Some patients have only one idea in mind: to flee at all costs from the haunting voice that persecutes them and prevents them from sleeping. Travel can therefore be a symptom, among others, of a pathology that is already known. "The journey then becomes part of a delirious process that belongs to the patient's psychiatric picture," concludes Dr. Mahmoudia.
These two situations are different. In one case, the journey is part of the patient's delirium, in the other, it is the triggering event of his pathology. But in both situations, Dr. Mahmoudia prefers to speak of pathological travel or travel-related psychopathology, rather than traveller's syndrome. The latter term is used incorrectly, as it originally defines a completely different situation. Also called "Stendhal syndrome", the traveller's syndrome is actually a state of ecstasy accompanied by a strong emotional charge when in contact with a work of art. This experience remains quite rare and affects the most sensitive souls. Their heart accelerates, they are taken by vertigo, they suffocate. And then they quickly come to their senses. This emotion is not a real psychological disorder and therefore does not lead to any particular treatment. It was Graziella Magherini, a Florentine psychiatrist who, in 1990, described for the first time this surprising syndrome linked to travelling in art cities. Surprised to receive emotionally shocked tourists, she wondered about the effects of an artistic overdose. She then made a link with Stendhal's travel diaries, which in 1817, on leaving the church of Santa Croce in Florence, reported: "I had arrived at that point of emotion where the heavenly sensations given by the Fine Arts and passionate feelings meet. On leaving Santa Croce, I had a heartbeat, life was exhausted at home, I walked with the fear of falling". These are certainly moving words, but they are not comparable to the emergency cases that Dr. Mahmoudia is able to meet in his consultation."
There is a similar Japan syndrome in NEETs and weebs who spend years obsessing over how amazing living in Japan would be and who then finally move there and realize it isn't as it is depicted in their anime and porn and on their imageboard
wozniacki(6)
- When interacting with locals, always start off by saying Bonjour Monsieur, Bonjour Madame. That will help disarm cranky Parisians. If doing an AirBnb make sure to do this when seeing people on the “palier” — stair landing in Parisian apartment buildings.
- Consider going to the top of the Tour Maine-Montparnasse, instead of the Eiffel Tower. You will have 1/100th the foot traffic and you won’t be surrounded by pickpockets. Plus you’ll be able to see the Eiffel Tower :-)
- Check out and buy food from the local street market in your area.
- My favorite thing to do in Paris still is flâner — to stroll about the lovely city.