TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Semiconductor Fab in U.S.(tsmc.com)
tsmc.com
TSMC Announces Intention to Build and Operate Advanced Semiconductor Fab in U.S.
https://www.tsmc.com/tsmcdotcom/PRListingNewsAction.do?action=detail&language=E&newsid=THGOANPGTH
141 comments
> I suspect the production goes to US defense applications. Pompeo tweeting about it seems to confirm it.
It doesn't. Just because he referenced "national security" does not mean this fab will be dedicated to producing chips for DOD contractors.
The DOD has been making a shift to COTS processing hardware over the past couple decades. Part of the national security implications of this fab is preventing supply chain disruption in the event something happens with China. This serves to both guarantee the ability to supply COTS hardware to the DOD and to reduce the impact on the overall economy, making it more difficult for China to hold the US over a barrel by threatening its technology industry.
It doesn't. Just because he referenced "national security" does not mean this fab will be dedicated to producing chips for DOD contractors.
The DOD has been making a shift to COTS processing hardware over the past couple decades. Part of the national security implications of this fab is preventing supply chain disruption in the event something happens with China. This serves to both guarantee the ability to supply COTS hardware to the DOD and to reduce the impact on the overall economy, making it more difficult for China to hold the US over a barrel by threatening its technology industry.
COTS parts are part of defense supply chain management. Only manufacturer of critical components within 200 km from Chinese border is strategic vulnerability, COTS or not.
I think you and your parent agree with each other.
No, we disagree. I think this fab manufactures almost exclusively to defense even if it manufactures COTS parts. Building small volume fab for 2/3 of the cost of new GIGAFAB makes no sense for commercial purposes.
The cost of the building is minor compared to the cost of the wafer equipment. It is not uncommon to build a Fab but only fill it with a fraction of the equipment capacity. Fabs can be scaled up when demand increases.
The equipment is costly (lithography equipment especially) but everything around them is also very expensive, including building. Huge Class 4 clean rooms, water purification, etc. There are lots of chemicals, acids and their processing involved. There are pipes moving liquid helium, nitrogen etc. Semiconductor fab is essentially a chemical plant.
Seems like the most of the discussion here totally missed that part - that would be no consumer grade chips and likely the prime client would be US military.
20k wafers (perhaps 450mm ones?) with unknown yield (likely 80ish) is quite low. For reference AMD 5700 has die area of ~250mm.
20k wafers (perhaps 450mm ones?) with unknown yield (likely 80ish) is quite low. For reference AMD 5700 has die area of ~250mm.
I don't see how that big investment for relative low volume production would make sense for consumer products.
If the fab is located inside the US, AMD and NVIDIA can bid for many US government contracts that would go for Intel. After GlobalFoundries quit the race, US defense contractors have only Intel as supplier for many components.
If the fab is located inside the US, AMD and NVIDIA can bid for many US government contracts that would go for Intel. After GlobalFoundries quit the race, US defense contractors have only Intel as supplier for many components.
> I don't see how that big investment for relative low volume production would make sense for consumer products.
If the consumer product is a toy then sure. If it’s a medical device then it could make sense. It’s all about margin.
> After GlobalFoundries quit the race, US defense contractors have only Intel as supplier for many components.
Maybe. If you want millions of chips a quarter then sure. But if you want 1000s a quarter then there are many options, depending on the node I guess. I’m not going to Google a complete list but one obvious example is Texas Instruments.
If the consumer product is a toy then sure. If it’s a medical device then it could make sense. It’s all about margin.
> After GlobalFoundries quit the race, US defense contractors have only Intel as supplier for many components.
Maybe. If you want millions of chips a quarter then sure. But if you want 1000s a quarter then there are many options, depending on the node I guess. I’m not going to Google a complete list but one obvious example is Texas Instruments.
You can seriously get small run chips made on 7nm in the US? I just don't believe it.
Was 7nm a requirement? I didn’t gather that from the thread.
Small run 22nm is certainly available. These are fabricated in the US, albeit at an Intel site. https://www.mosis.com/pages/intel_sponsored_fab
Small run 22nm is certainly available. These are fabricated in the US, albeit at an Intel site. https://www.mosis.com/pages/intel_sponsored_fab
Where in the world can you get small runs of 7nm chips, and why would you want them?
From what I can see, 450mm is dead. It has been years since I’ve seen any action on this.
This would be an interesting turn of events if it came to pass. It would certainly add good data to the argument that TSMC chips are cheaper because of the economics of east Asia.
The geopolitical aspects are, to me at least, a bit over blown. Yes there has been growing concern about the integrity of the supply chain for critical resources, but that is the whole globalization problem in a nutshell. I find the calls to re-vertically-integrate the US to not be very persuasive in terms of practicality. Maybe if Canada and Mexico join the US in an economic union similar to the EU? Chips are just one part of a much larger puzzle and fabs are just one part of a supply chain that includes stops in Malaysia, Indonesia, and Vietnam for packaging and testing.
I do think it has been made abundantly clear how interdependent the world is these days. It is possible that the new clarity has caused some powerful forces to reconsider their world view. But has it changed it enough to create real and meaningful policy change? (For context, I see globalization as a means of maximizing profits, not about politics)
To my way of thinking, real change would be the ability to economically stand up a 100mm 5nm fab line profitably. That would allow the production of "jelly bean" chips (general purpose < 100M gates). That would be a pretty seismic change in my opinion.
The geopolitical aspects are, to me at least, a bit over blown. Yes there has been growing concern about the integrity of the supply chain for critical resources, but that is the whole globalization problem in a nutshell. I find the calls to re-vertically-integrate the US to not be very persuasive in terms of practicality. Maybe if Canada and Mexico join the US in an economic union similar to the EU? Chips are just one part of a much larger puzzle and fabs are just one part of a supply chain that includes stops in Malaysia, Indonesia, and Vietnam for packaging and testing.
I do think it has been made abundantly clear how interdependent the world is these days. It is possible that the new clarity has caused some powerful forces to reconsider their world view. But has it changed it enough to create real and meaningful policy change? (For context, I see globalization as a means of maximizing profits, not about politics)
To my way of thinking, real change would be the ability to economically stand up a 100mm 5nm fab line profitably. That would allow the production of "jelly bean" chips (general purpose < 100M gates). That would be a pretty seismic change in my opinion.
>(For context, I see globalization as a means of maximizing profits, not about politics)
Globalization is just a euphemism for hegemony. First it was the British Empire, then the American Empire.
Globalization is just a euphemism for hegemony. First it was the British Empire, then the American Empire.
And now is the Chinese turn?
To be honest the chinese even study its raise up and have a long tv series about it — war is inevitable. Hence the peaceful raise of china is the slogan. They know you do not. Nearly 20 years of sending in students, researchers, 1000 person scheme etc. They win if it is not Xi, you may not even know until too late.
Probably not. The British century was built on the back of dead Germans and Russians containing Napoleonic France. The American century was built on the back of dead Russians and Western European ruins by Nazi Germany. If the third time's the charm, then the next Hegemon would be the faction that successfully minimise its own losses in a WW3, so either India or Europe(an Union).
Then again, history doesn't repeat, it rhymes.
Then again, history doesn't repeat, it rhymes.
An earlier thread, before the official announcement, was https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23183850. But we've merged most of the relevant comments into this thread.
But now a lot of the comments from old thread are speculating whether the move was right. When the actual news here is the confirmation of the move.
I find that a little confusing just reading the comments.
I find that a little confusing just reading the comments.
People would be posting about that anyway. No discussion colors strictly within the lines of the actual news; it always hops to adjacent questions (which is usually fine) and inevitably to whatever generic themes people associate it with (which is usually not fine: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...).
Only a few days ago they were saying they had no specific plans for a US fab (https://www.digitimes.com/news/a20200512PD202.html).
Nice that Intel will have more local competition.
Nice that Intel will have more local competition.
I suspect this is the result of DARPA’s big interposer push and it’s leaking now because of the change in leadership there.
Specifically TSMC has breakthrough CoWoS interposers, can’t meet demand, and the military is bottlenecked without a chiplet path made in the USA.
Specifically TSMC has breakthrough CoWoS interposers, can’t meet demand, and the military is bottlenecked without a chiplet path made in the USA.
Something like that seems to make sense considering the investment is relatively tiny and that the factory is gonna be about 1/5th the size of the usual TSMC factory.
So it does appear like this is intended for a specific chip for a specific purpose.
So it does appear like this is intended for a specific chip for a specific purpose.
Excuse the naive question, but what technology does a fab bring to the table? As I understand it, TSMC buys most (all?) of their equipment from ASML (or a competitor), and the chip design is done and owned by their customers. What's left, aside from a giant cleanroom and some specialized operators?
Good question. There there must be something material otherwise TSMC wouldn't have such a lead on their competitors.
I hope to see a thousand silicon startups on the West Coast. This is a great time to join Chris Lattner at SiFive.
Right next to the Foxconn plant. /s
There is precedent for fabs though, so its not totally out there.
There is precedent for fabs though, so its not totally out there.
Is this going to be a repeat of the Foxconn-Wisconsin debacle where the state pays a company four billion dollars to buy a bunch of empty buildings and employ nobody?
Morris Chang != Terry Gou
Morris retired a few years back
he left TSMC with a good management and more trust worthy than Foxconn.
Hopefully this goes better than Foxconn in Wisconsin.
I wonder how they are going to make up for the economic reasons this isn't generally done in the US?
At least one component of the "America First" strategy I can fully get behind is bringing manufacturing back to the US mainline. If anything that last few months has taught us, it's that we must not lose our ability to produce quality, vital products. Semiconductors definitely falls into that category.
I don't care how it's accomplished, either carrots (tax incentives) or sticks (tariffs). Do what's necessary to bring the production of these vital components here.
I don't care how it's accomplished, either carrots (tax incentives) or sticks (tariffs). Do what's necessary to bring the production of these vital components here.
Consider for a moment that less reliance upon foreign supply chains makes {trade, cold, shooting} war more viable.
Right now the world is peaceful and I stand in North America with an iPhone 11 Pro in my pocket and an advanced Nvidia GPU in my workstation. I’m not sure I see a problem with that state of affairs.
Reducing interdependence reduces the downside to stupid, selfish nationalistic moves. I don’t want that at all.
Right now the world is peaceful and I stand in North America with an iPhone 11 Pro in my pocket and an advanced Nvidia GPU in my workstation. I’m not sure I see a problem with that state of affairs.
Reducing interdependence reduces the downside to stupid, selfish nationalistic moves. I don’t want that at all.
More foreign dependence makes you more vulnerable in a war, and definitely doesn't prevent war. It makes you an easier target.
Also what you see as peaceful, others see as a stalemate unfortunately. Hopefully it lasts.
Also what you see as peaceful, others see as a stalemate unfortunately. Hopefully it lasts.
The whole point is that right now China does not depend on us as much as we depend on them for manufacturing. We need to correct the balance, or at least expanding manufacturing in neutral or allied countries.
If a war breaks out now, they are in a better position regarding manufactured goods. Rare earth metals too.
If a war breaks out now, they are in a better position regarding manufactured goods. Rare earth metals too.
In this scenario, if your adversary produced or had control over your entire military supply chain, do you think that would give them less leverage or more leverage? Would it make them less hostile, or more hostile? Leverage is everything, in trade, war, and peace.
Did you see that someone was ready to manufacture n95 masks for the us government but they declined? That type of short sitedness is hard to fix.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.nonpareilonline.com/news/spe...
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.nonpareilonline.com/news/spe...
Taxpayer-funded state-directed economic activity?
The problem is, what do you do when the other guy is doing that? It's basically an antitrust violation with a foreign state playing the role of the trust. They can subsidize their industry to sell below cost until yours goes out of business and then have a monopoly. China has been doing this for decades.
Not responding is a competitive disadvantage, so it has to be either subsidies or tariffs and sanctions.
Not responding is a competitive disadvantage, so it has to be either subsidies or tariffs and sanctions.
Unlike bank bailouts, we'll have a semiconductor fab, supply chain and jobs to show for it. Put the reserve currency to good use while it's still a reserve currency.
Boosting US domestic manufacturing will help ensure the USD remains the reserve currency.
There's zero threat currently to that status and only China is capable of even plausibly posing a challenge in the next ~30 years. The Euro, Yen and Bitcoin pose no realistic challenge to USD dominance. It leaves only the Yuan, which still has no global position at all and isn't regarded as a currency you can trust. China will obviously do anything they can to alter that equation.
We're going into, at a minimum, a cold war with China that will last decades. There is no scenario where that is avoided. The US should become wildly aggressive about bringing manufacturing back, or otherwise pushing it out of China (including convincing allies to do the same), pulling every lever necessary.
There's zero threat currently to that status and only China is capable of even plausibly posing a challenge in the next ~30 years. The Euro, Yen and Bitcoin pose no realistic challenge to USD dominance. It leaves only the Yuan, which still has no global position at all and isn't regarded as a currency you can trust. China will obviously do anything they can to alter that equation.
We're going into, at a minimum, a cold war with China that will last decades. There is no scenario where that is avoided. The US should become wildly aggressive about bringing manufacturing back, or otherwise pushing it out of China (including convincing allies to do the same), pulling every lever necessary.
Yes.
"America First" isn't a strategy, it's a slogan.
Why are fabs being built in az?
AZ has been a semiconductor hub for decades. Intel, Motorola, ON and many others produce chips there. There is huge infrastructure and talent base for semiconductor manufacturing. Geographically, Chandler as a suburb of Phoenix has consistent weather, relatively cheap land, and access to water - as counter-intuitive as it sounds. I did my PhD in semiconductors at ASU and there might has well been a bus direct from the University to Intel.
Keep in mind, we're talking about PRODUCTION, not R&D. R&D happens elsewhere, this is just where the big plants go.
Keep in mind, we're talking about PRODUCTION, not R&D. R&D happens elsewhere, this is just where the big plants go.
Thank you for providing context.
During the 80s & 90s, one of my besties worked on building fabs in and around PHX. Really exotic stuff that I didn't really understand. He'd joke that he had a PhD in welding.
He claimed at the time that fabs were migrating from California to PHX and ABX to avoid environmental regulation (enforcement) and cheaper water. While he was concerned about building future superfund sites, he also knew he'd never make that kind of money doing any other kind of work.
If you don't mind, I'd really appreciate your take. I still have family in Phoenix.
I've always been concerned about toxins (air and water). And I'm also grumpy about megacorps guzzling all the water at discount prices.
So while I'd love for TSMC to build their fabs in the USA, I'm worried about the downsides too.
Are my concerns justified?
During the 80s & 90s, one of my besties worked on building fabs in and around PHX. Really exotic stuff that I didn't really understand. He'd joke that he had a PhD in welding.
He claimed at the time that fabs were migrating from California to PHX and ABX to avoid environmental regulation (enforcement) and cheaper water. While he was concerned about building future superfund sites, he also knew he'd never make that kind of money doing any other kind of work.
If you don't mind, I'd really appreciate your take. I still have family in Phoenix.
I've always been concerned about toxins (air and water). And I'm also grumpy about megacorps guzzling all the water at discount prices.
So while I'd love for TSMC to build their fabs in the USA, I'm worried about the downsides too.
Are my concerns justified?
Semiconductor plants use a ridiculous amount of potentially harmful chemicals as part of the manufacturing process. Most of the material is recaptured and never makes it into the local environment. Intel uses probably close to 10M gallons of water a DAY and recycles the vast majority.
Before water enters a fab it goes through a water purification plant to eliminate any impurities. As the water leaves the fab it goes through another process to decontaminate and recycle it. The process of purifying water is expensive and consumes energy so they try and recycle as much as possible. The number 96% sticks out in my mind but that is an old number.
Simply stated, I do not worry about local pollution from semiconductor manufacturing in the United States due to all the regulations. I would live next door to the Chandler plant happily. Pull open Google Maps Satellite View, type in "Intel Chandler Soccer Field" Look at all the green area around the plant, that's where the 4% that isn't recycled goes. You will also see a beautiful golf course and nice houses just east of the plant.
Side note: as I understand it, plants moved to AZ/NM because they wanted to eliminate process variance. Weather and water are a major source of variance. So they want places that reduce variance while simultaneously being favorable business environments.
Reference: https://ktar.com/story/76977/intel-plant-replenishes-water-s...
Before water enters a fab it goes through a water purification plant to eliminate any impurities. As the water leaves the fab it goes through another process to decontaminate and recycle it. The process of purifying water is expensive and consumes energy so they try and recycle as much as possible. The number 96% sticks out in my mind but that is an old number.
Simply stated, I do not worry about local pollution from semiconductor manufacturing in the United States due to all the regulations. I would live next door to the Chandler plant happily. Pull open Google Maps Satellite View, type in "Intel Chandler Soccer Field" Look at all the green area around the plant, that's where the 4% that isn't recycled goes. You will also see a beautiful golf course and nice houses just east of the plant.
Side note: as I understand it, plants moved to AZ/NM because they wanted to eliminate process variance. Weather and water are a major source of variance. So they want places that reduce variance while simultaneously being favorable business environments.
Reference: https://ktar.com/story/76977/intel-plant-replenishes-water-s...
A question is - what do they do with the waste from treatment. One former superfund site near the house I grew up in in South San Jose wasn't because they dumped toxic chemicals or water directly in the ground, but that they sealed them on site and the containment mechanism failed and they ended up leaking into the groundwater.
I could only assume they have much better monitoring of these situations nowadays.
I could only assume they have much better monitoring of these situations nowadays.
> question is - what do they do with the waste from treatment.
System reliability is a big question.
> wasn't because they dumped toxic chemicals or water directly in the ground, but that [...] mechanism failed
It's not an isolated incident, leaks is actually the most common cause. Many fabs became superfunds not because the owners are evil, but because many safeguards, industrial or regulatory, were simply not in place at that time.
Let me repost an older comment.
I'd say early inexperience on semiconductor manufacturing was another major factor responsible for the pollution, many safeguards, industrial or regulatory, were simply not in place at that time. For example, many plants had storage tanks as parts of the production process, a common practice in the industry - most ended up having a massive leak, releasing various harmful chemical pollutants, including highly toxic TCE. And it seems the companies weren't doing it deliberately to save costs, many pollution events were "just" industrial accidents, and few foresaw the consequences of leaking tanks, not to say that some leaks were only discovered years later.
Now the companies are doing the cleanup under the supervision of the EPA, I think it's fortunate in a sense that these companies are the world's most powerful ones and they have the ability to pay, not some non-existent companies that already declared bankruptcy. And unfortunately, the price we are paying now for being ignorant in the early days is that the pollution still requires many years, or even many decades, of work to achieve even a basic, minimum level of cleanup. Some cleanup efforts have been active since the late 80s, and was still being continued working on in the 2010s.
Some examples:
* COMMODORE SEMICONDUCTOR GROUP
(Yes, the plant that produced MOS 6502 that we knew and love, and it was a pioneer for making the first widely-used microprocessor for personal computers, and also a pioneer for having a massive leak of TCE storage tank...)
> Background: Waste solvents were stored in an underground concrete storage tank on site until 1975, when it was taken out of service. An unlined steel tank was installed next to the concrete one in 1975. Inspections conducted by the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection (PADEP) indicated that both tanks leaked.
> Cleanup: In 1981, Commodore excavated soils and pumped water from a contaminated well, then sprayed it onto surrounding fields. The volatile organic compounds (VOCs) dissipated into the air. Since 1984, air strippers have been in use to remove solvents from the groundwater.[...] Construction of the groundwater extraction and treatment system began in the Fall of 1999. In February 2000, pipelines and underground wiring were installed, pumps were installed at each of the extraction wells, and the groundwater treatment building was constructed. The treatment process equipment was installed in May 2000. Preliminary start-up and testing of the system began in August 2000.
* ADVANCED MICRO DEVICES, INC.
> Background: Two below-ground acid neutralization system (ANS) tank vaults were located at the northern and southern ends of the 901 and 902 Thompson Place buildings, respectively. Leaks from these ANS tanks appears to be the primary on-site source of VOCs to groundwater in this area.
> Cleanup: After the two acid neutralization tanks were removed, AMD excavated and disposed of soil impacted with VOCs, and installed a groundwater extraction and treatment system. Extracted groundwater was treated with air stripping technology followed by carbon adsorption. [...] The groundwater extraction and treatment system began operating in 1983 and continued through 2002, when it was discontinued with State approval to allow for an in-situ bioremediation (ISB) pilot test. The full-scale ISB system, which was initially pilot-tested from 2002 through 2004, and then expanded in 2005, includes groundwater treatment by carbon filtration and injection of an organic carbon source to stimulate the growth of naturally-occurring microbes that break down target VOCs into environmentally-benign end products.
* INTEL CORP. (MOUNTAIN VIEW PLANT)
> Background: The site is one of three Superfund or National Priorities List (NPL) sites that are being cleaned up simultaneously. The other two Superfund sites are the Fairchild Semiconductor Corp. (Mountain View Plant) site and the Raytheon site. The three sites are located in the Middlefield-Ellis-Whisman (MEW) Study Area. Site investigations at several of these facilities during 1981 and 1982 revealed significant soil and groundwater contamination by toxic chemicals, primarily volatile organic compounds (VOCs).
> Cleanup: Under EPA’s direction and oversight, Intel has implemented the soil and groundwater cleanup program at the former Intel facility. The soil cleanup has been completed at the site and all the former MEW facilities.
* FAIRCHILD SEMICONDUCTOR CORP. (MOUNTAIN VIEW PLANT)
> Background: The 56-acre former Fairchild Semiconductor Corp. (Mountain View) site is located in Mountain View, California. A facility on site manufactured semiconductors. The site is one of three Superfund National Priorities List (NPL) sites that are being cleaned up simultaneously.
> Cleanup Activities: Under EPA’s direction and oversight, [...] Fairchild Semiconductor Corp. [...] implemented soil and groundwater cleanup programs that have included soil excavation and treatment, installation of four slurry walls, soil vapor extraction and treatment systems, and groundwater extraction and treatment systems. The soil cleanup by soil vapor extraction and excavation and aeration has been completed at all the former MEW facilities, including the former Fairchild facilities. Groundwater cleanup will continue to operate for many decades in order to meet the trichloroethene (TCE) groundwater cleanup standard of 5 parts per billion. The MEW site groundwater remedy has removed over 76,000 pounds of contaminants, and has reduced contaminant concentrations throughout the multiple aquifer zones.
> HEWLETT-PACKARD (620-640 PAGE MILL ROAD)
> Cleanup: Extensive investigation and cleanup at the HP Site has been conducted since discovery of a release from a 1,000-gallon underground waste solvent tank in 1981. Interim remedial measures included excavation and off-site disposal between 1987 and 1992 of approximately 10,700 cubic yards of soil, construction and operation (beginning in 1994) of a soil vapor extraction and treatment (SVET) system; and groundwater extraction and treatment beginning in 1987 and continuing to the present day.
> NATIONAL SEMICONDUCTOR CORP.
> Background: The National Semiconductor Corporation (National Semiconductor) previously manufactured electronic equipment at this 50-acre site. Underground storage tanks, sumps, and pipes are the suspected sources for contaminated groundwater and soil in Sunnyvale underneath the site.
> Cleanup: Beginning in 1982, contaminated soils, leaking tanks and equipment were removed. Subsequently, National Semiconductor initiated a program of pumping and treating the groundwater to contain the contaminated plume while further site studies were underway. In 1989, National Semiconductor began investigating the type and extent of contamination at the site. The investigation was completed in 1991, and the EPA selected the final remedy for the site. Construction of the remedy began in 1991. The final cleanup remedy, which includes soil vapor extraction and operation of the groundwater extraction and treatment system, is ongoing.
System reliability is a big question.
> wasn't because they dumped toxic chemicals or water directly in the ground, but that [...] mechanism failed
It's not an isolated incident, leaks is actually the most common cause. Many fabs became superfunds not because the owners are evil, but because many safeguards, industrial or regulatory, were simply not in place at that time.
Let me repost an older comment.
I'd say early inexperience on semiconductor manufacturing was another major factor responsible for the pollution, many safeguards, industrial or regulatory, were simply not in place at that time. For example, many plants had storage tanks as parts of the production process, a common practice in the industry - most ended up having a massive leak, releasing various harmful chemical pollutants, including highly toxic TCE. And it seems the companies weren't doing it deliberately to save costs, many pollution events were "just" industrial accidents, and few foresaw the consequences of leaking tanks, not to say that some leaks were only discovered years later.
Now the companies are doing the cleanup under the supervision of the EPA, I think it's fortunate in a sense that these companies are the world's most powerful ones and they have the ability to pay, not some non-existent companies that already declared bankruptcy. And unfortunately, the price we are paying now for being ignorant in the early days is that the pollution still requires many years, or even many decades, of work to achieve even a basic, minimum level of cleanup. Some cleanup efforts have been active since the late 80s, and was still being continued working on in the 2010s.
Some examples:
* COMMODORE SEMICONDUCTOR GROUP
(Yes, the plant that produced MOS 6502 that we knew and love, and it was a pioneer for making the first widely-used microprocessor for personal computers, and also a pioneer for having a massive leak of TCE storage tank...)
> Background: Waste solvents were stored in an underground concrete storage tank on site until 1975, when it was taken out of service. An unlined steel tank was installed next to the concrete one in 1975. Inspections conducted by the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection (PADEP) indicated that both tanks leaked.
> Cleanup: In 1981, Commodore excavated soils and pumped water from a contaminated well, then sprayed it onto surrounding fields. The volatile organic compounds (VOCs) dissipated into the air. Since 1984, air strippers have been in use to remove solvents from the groundwater.[...] Construction of the groundwater extraction and treatment system began in the Fall of 1999. In February 2000, pipelines and underground wiring were installed, pumps were installed at each of the extraction wells, and the groundwater treatment building was constructed. The treatment process equipment was installed in May 2000. Preliminary start-up and testing of the system began in August 2000.
* ADVANCED MICRO DEVICES, INC.
> Background: Two below-ground acid neutralization system (ANS) tank vaults were located at the northern and southern ends of the 901 and 902 Thompson Place buildings, respectively. Leaks from these ANS tanks appears to be the primary on-site source of VOCs to groundwater in this area.
> Cleanup: After the two acid neutralization tanks were removed, AMD excavated and disposed of soil impacted with VOCs, and installed a groundwater extraction and treatment system. Extracted groundwater was treated with air stripping technology followed by carbon adsorption. [...] The groundwater extraction and treatment system began operating in 1983 and continued through 2002, when it was discontinued with State approval to allow for an in-situ bioremediation (ISB) pilot test. The full-scale ISB system, which was initially pilot-tested from 2002 through 2004, and then expanded in 2005, includes groundwater treatment by carbon filtration and injection of an organic carbon source to stimulate the growth of naturally-occurring microbes that break down target VOCs into environmentally-benign end products.
* INTEL CORP. (MOUNTAIN VIEW PLANT)
> Background: The site is one of three Superfund or National Priorities List (NPL) sites that are being cleaned up simultaneously. The other two Superfund sites are the Fairchild Semiconductor Corp. (Mountain View Plant) site and the Raytheon site. The three sites are located in the Middlefield-Ellis-Whisman (MEW) Study Area. Site investigations at several of these facilities during 1981 and 1982 revealed significant soil and groundwater contamination by toxic chemicals, primarily volatile organic compounds (VOCs).
> Cleanup: Under EPA’s direction and oversight, Intel has implemented the soil and groundwater cleanup program at the former Intel facility. The soil cleanup has been completed at the site and all the former MEW facilities.
* FAIRCHILD SEMICONDUCTOR CORP. (MOUNTAIN VIEW PLANT)
> Background: The 56-acre former Fairchild Semiconductor Corp. (Mountain View) site is located in Mountain View, California. A facility on site manufactured semiconductors. The site is one of three Superfund National Priorities List (NPL) sites that are being cleaned up simultaneously.
> Cleanup Activities: Under EPA’s direction and oversight, [...] Fairchild Semiconductor Corp. [...] implemented soil and groundwater cleanup programs that have included soil excavation and treatment, installation of four slurry walls, soil vapor extraction and treatment systems, and groundwater extraction and treatment systems. The soil cleanup by soil vapor extraction and excavation and aeration has been completed at all the former MEW facilities, including the former Fairchild facilities. Groundwater cleanup will continue to operate for many decades in order to meet the trichloroethene (TCE) groundwater cleanup standard of 5 parts per billion. The MEW site groundwater remedy has removed over 76,000 pounds of contaminants, and has reduced contaminant concentrations throughout the multiple aquifer zones.
> HEWLETT-PACKARD (620-640 PAGE MILL ROAD)
> Cleanup: Extensive investigation and cleanup at the HP Site has been conducted since discovery of a release from a 1,000-gallon underground waste solvent tank in 1981. Interim remedial measures included excavation and off-site disposal between 1987 and 1992 of approximately 10,700 cubic yards of soil, construction and operation (beginning in 1994) of a soil vapor extraction and treatment (SVET) system; and groundwater extraction and treatment beginning in 1987 and continuing to the present day.
> NATIONAL SEMICONDUCTOR CORP.
> Background: The National Semiconductor Corporation (National Semiconductor) previously manufactured electronic equipment at this 50-acre site. Underground storage tanks, sumps, and pipes are the suspected sources for contaminated groundwater and soil in Sunnyvale underneath the site.
> Cleanup: Beginning in 1982, contaminated soils, leaking tanks and equipment were removed. Subsequently, National Semiconductor initiated a program of pumping and treating the groundwater to contain the contaminated plume while further site studies were underway. In 1989, National Semiconductor began investigating the type and extent of contamination at the site. The investigation was completed in 1991, and the EPA selected the final remedy for the site. Construction of the remedy began in 1991. The final cleanup remedy, which includes soil vapor extraction and operation of the groundwater extraction and treatment system, is ongoing.
Other Fabs are already located in the area, and in general the state has been good towards businesses. Also ASU is nearby so they have a talent pool of new engineers to pull from.
Anecdote, since I've moved to AZ myself 5 years ago I've noticed massive growth in tech businesses in Phoenix and the surrounding areas. Cost of living for people here is also cheaper compared to to other cities I've lived in, and many people I've met who moved from California have told me how its cheaper here. Commuting is not too bad depending on where you live, and there are options which promote commuting or carpooling such as HOV lanes, Bike Lanes, and the light-rail system (the light rail is hit or miss depending on who you ask).
Anecdote, since I've moved to AZ myself 5 years ago I've noticed massive growth in tech businesses in Phoenix and the surrounding areas. Cost of living for people here is also cheaper compared to to other cities I've lived in, and many people I've met who moved from California have told me how its cheaper here. Commuting is not too bad depending on where you live, and there are options which promote commuting or carpooling such as HOV lanes, Bike Lanes, and the light-rail system (the light rail is hit or miss depending on who you ask).
Guesses: away from fault lines? Dry climate? They get some nasty rains that flood things, but better than tornados, hurricanes, and earthquakes.
^ This. Also explains why there's so many data centers. Cost too. Land & power are both cheap.
I'm sure evaporative cooling is cheaper too, compared to some place where it's too humid.
Intel has a big AZ presence, I wonder why AZ specifically. Maybe climate? Maybe so TSMC can poach some talent? It's a really great question and if anyone has specifics I hope they chime in.
Probably also a pretty good existing ecosystem of 3rd party contractors and suppliers that support the Intel fabs and would be happy to do business with TSMC as well.
edit: also, a minor quibble: I wish we'd get away from calling it "poaching", as if there is anything illegal or immoral about employers competing for employees.
edit: also, a minor quibble: I wish we'd get away from calling it "poaching", as if there is anything illegal or immoral about employers competing for employees.
ASU puts out some pretty talented semiconductor engineers, and ON Semiconductor is a major supplier based in Phoenix
ASU isn't exactly a premier college for engineering. They have good parties tho
Maybe not for undergrad, but undergraduates don't learn how to do semiconductor manufacturing.
And there’s existing talent because Intel has chip fabs there.
> Why are fabs being built in az?
If you are asking about Intel ones, and ones owned by the defence hardware industry, it is the same reason why China is building their fabs as far inland as Xian, and other obscure and scattered across places: they are harder to bomb there.
If you are asking about Intel ones, and ones owned by the defence hardware industry, it is the same reason why China is building their fabs as far inland as Xian, and other obscure and scattered across places: they are harder to bomb there.
Business friendly state that has low oversight into what goes into our environment. We have an EPA superfund site near an old Motorola plant.
Santa Clara County is full of Superfund sites from old semiconductor factories so there's nothing new there.
I think Europe would do well to thing about getting TSMC to build a fab in Europe, especially as a lot of the tools are already built here.
Good to see the American government still functions in one way or another...
Good to see the American government still functions in one way or another...
What is the environmental footprint of a typical fab? From what I understand, modern chips are free of conflict materials, but are there toxic byproducts which would cause trouble with the EPA?
A memorable description of one chemical used in fabs:
[Chlorine trifluoride] is apparently about the most vigorous fluorinating agent known, and is much more difficult to handle than fluorine gas. That’s one of those statements you don’t get to hear very often, and it should be enough to make any sensible chemist turn around smartly and head down the hall in the other direction.
The compound also a stronger oxidizing agent than oxygen itself, which also puts it into rare territory. That means that it can potentially go on to “burn” things that you would normally consider already burnt to hell and gone, and a practical consequence of that is that it’ll start roaring reactions with things like bricks and asbestos tile. It’s been used in the semiconductor industry to clean oxides off of surfaces, at which activity it no doubt excels.
https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2008/02/26/sa...
Read on to find out what happened when somebody accidentally spilled 1 ton of the stuff!
[Chlorine trifluoride] is apparently about the most vigorous fluorinating agent known, and is much more difficult to handle than fluorine gas. That’s one of those statements you don’t get to hear very often, and it should be enough to make any sensible chemist turn around smartly and head down the hall in the other direction.
The compound also a stronger oxidizing agent than oxygen itself, which also puts it into rare territory. That means that it can potentially go on to “burn” things that you would normally consider already burnt to hell and gone, and a practical consequence of that is that it’ll start roaring reactions with things like bricks and asbestos tile. It’s been used in the semiconductor industry to clean oxides off of surfaces, at which activity it no doubt excels.
https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2008/02/26/sa...
Read on to find out what happened when somebody accidentally spilled 1 ton of the stuff!
While still an issue, many of the really bad offenders leaked chemicals for instance doesn't happen much anymore. Mostly because fab materials are expensive to get and purify. Simply dumping them is wasteful, so anything that can be salvaged and used on the next batch is big savings.
... https://blogs.intel.com/csr/files/2019/11/Circularity-at-Int...
... https://blogs.intel.com/csr/files/2019/11/Circularity-at-Int...
the problem with environment footprint is that moving it to other country solves nothing and often makes matters worse (due to more relaxed standards). We all live on the same planet.
Modern chips are free of conflict materials? How do you even start to come up with a basis for the statement? I also don't understand the connection between "conflict materials" and toxic substances. I thought it was common knowledge that making chips involves lots of extremely toxic chemicals though.
The amount of rare elements used to dope semiconductors is orders of magnitude less than what's used in the capacitors next to them.
They already operated design centers and the fab wafertech in Camas, Washington.
It’s not wildly surprising, given that all major USA chip players will now be using TSMC, including Intel.
It’s not wildly surprising, given that all major USA chip players will now be using TSMC, including Intel.
Some competition with Intel in their home turf I see.
Happy to see manufacturing coming back to the US. I'm writing this before I read the comments and have my hopes dashed
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Interesting. Are they planning to use some kind of alternative energy sources for their plants?
Next we need a proper embassy. No more erasure of the true Chinese Republic with actual human rights, freedom, and prosperity for the many and not the connected few of the few.
Didn’t AMD have a big fab in Arizona once?
I hope they build it across the street from Intel.
Someday I would really love to buy an iPhone that says "designed and built by Apple in California"
Stuff like this is just one step closer to that. I would happily pay a premium for it. Excellent news.
And to all of you currently looking at your rent in SF and wondering if you should stay there now that you can work remote: AZ is a pretty awesome place, and more and more it's looking like it actually could become a hardware hub in the US.
To be clear on my point about rent in Phoenix, btw: I am currently sitting about 400 yards from ASU (I live across the street from campus). I rented this house for about 10 years for <$1000/mo (2br, 1ba, now I own it), and there are still apartments/condos in this neighborhood for that price. We don't have an ocean, but we have some of the most beautiful hiking in the world, the city is extremely cycle friendly, and almost every biome you could want is a few hours drive max from here. It's really a great city.
Stuff like this is just one step closer to that. I would happily pay a premium for it. Excellent news.
And to all of you currently looking at your rent in SF and wondering if you should stay there now that you can work remote: AZ is a pretty awesome place, and more and more it's looking like it actually could become a hardware hub in the US.
To be clear on my point about rent in Phoenix, btw: I am currently sitting about 400 yards from ASU (I live across the street from campus). I rented this house for about 10 years for <$1000/mo (2br, 1ba, now I own it), and there are still apartments/condos in this neighborhood for that price. We don't have an ocean, but we have some of the most beautiful hiking in the world, the city is extremely cycle friendly, and almost every biome you could want is a few hours drive max from here. It's really a great city.
Unless you care about the environment of course. Arizona is an unsustainable amount of air conditioning to fight against deadly temperatures.
Is Sweden using an unsustainable amount of heaters to fight against deadly winter temperatures? Air conditioning is much more efficient than a heater. Arizona will usually only get more than 15 degrees warmer than a comfortable indoor temperature. In places with cold winters, sometimes temperatures will get more than 25 degrees cooler than a comfortable indoor temperature.
>will get more than 25 degrees cooler than a comfortable indoor temperature.
Saying comfortable to be 22-24C, 25 is just barely below zero. North Europe standard winter conditions are far lower...
Saying comfortable to be 22-24C, 25 is just barely below zero. North Europe standard winter conditions are far lower...
It’s also technically one of the easiest places in the US to provide all your energy by yourself with solar.
AZ also has the largest nuclear power plant in the country, supplying 27% of the state's electricity.
That is the case now, but this does not have to be true. It's entirely possible for Arizona to meet its household energy needs renewably.
Arizona is electric unsustainable? California has rolling blackouts now
Rent in SF is fine! I just live in a one bedroom with 3 people. :-D
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Sound pointlessly nationalist.
Because of all of my electronics being assembled in China, there have been millions of people that were pulled out of poverty.
Because of all of my electronics being assembled in China, there have been millions of people that were pulled out of poverty.
Sounds pointlessly corporate.
Globalization has put millions of people in the West into poverty. Globalization is a scheme by corporations to get cheaper labor and have the whole world compete against each other while destroying a healthy societal coherence.
Globalization has put millions of people in the West into poverty. Globalization is a scheme by corporations to get cheaper labor and have the whole world compete against each other while destroying a healthy societal coherence.
That's a domestic issue in the United States. US GDP has grown steadily during the last 30 years. The corporate earnings of the s&p 500 has went up by multiple folds. Companies like Microsoft, Apple, Nike , McDonald, Johnson & Johnson etc are earnings more money from around the world then ever before. The record levels of s&p stock buybacks tells you that companies have more money than they know what to do with it. So the US is earning a lot more money from all of globalization. Yet all of this earning is not benefited the lower class Americans. It should have been distributed better internally within the US. Yet, the politics within the US is preventing that from happening. But have you thought about what other countries feels about US dominating in so many industries? Other countries need income as well. They have people to feed. From a equality stand point, they should also enjoy similar quality of life that developed countries are enjoying. If you have visited a developing country, you would know that life is so much different there than here in US. Globalization lifted hundreds of millions of people out of proverty around the world, not only in China, but also in Philippines, Thailand, vitenem, etc. Then these people have more money to spend on more expensive US goods, iPhones, computers, Starbucks etc. Globalization didn't put millions in the developed world in poverty, uneven tax system, economic distribution system, government that doesn't invest in the lower class population did. In the US for example, you have record jobs creation, yet a lot of companies say they can't hire the right talent. They have to hire h1bs. From a personal experience, a lot of companies would love to hire locally yet they can't because there is no talent available. The fundamental issue is that the education system does not produce enough talents needed by the job market.
Government needs to direct some of the fruits of globalization to invest in America. Individual large companies, even if big, do not have the incentive to invest in long-term and nebulous things like education for America.
Sounds pointlessly globalist.
In and of itself, what value does raising the living standard of millions of poor Chinese provide to Americans?
In and of itself, what value does raising the living standard of millions of poor Chinese provide to Americans?
> In and of itself, what value does raising the living standard of millions of poor Chinese provide to Americans?
Rising living standard means more consumers that can buy American goods, and it also means that the likelihood of civil war/uprisings due to poverty goes down, which in turn reduces the potential for wars.
Rising living standard means more consumers that can buy American goods, and it also means that the likelihood of civil war/uprisings due to poverty goes down, which in turn reduces the potential for wars.
Assuming a vacuum, the larger market is always fair, but I don’t see how it’s at all possible to value the presence or absence of conflict without a context.
> but I don’t see how it’s at all possible to value the presence or absence of conflict without a context.
Taking into account how much the Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts have cost the US in money, how much lives and potential was lost, is actually easy.
Don't get me wrong, it was a good intention to get rid of the Taliban and Saddam, but the execution failed horribly. And that were backyard 3rd world countries. A conflict involving China would be an utter bloodshed, especially if it devolves into nuclear war, and it would totally destroy the US and probably EU economy.
We're seeing how much we depend on China now with the 'rona crisis, and that is a "China does their best effort to fulfill Western orders for anything from toys to medical PPE" scenario and not a "China is at war with the US and doesn't deliver anything to them and their allies" scenario. Politicians have also realized this but renationalizing even parts of what was outsourced to China will take decades. Until that happens China has the Western states by the balls, figuratively - and given how they acted with delivering PPE "donations" to Italy and other states that the EU left to fend alone they know this and are absolutely willing to use this as leverage to keep the US and EU from interfering in their eradications of Uighur Muslims and Tibetan people.
Taking into account how much the Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts have cost the US in money, how much lives and potential was lost, is actually easy.
Don't get me wrong, it was a good intention to get rid of the Taliban and Saddam, but the execution failed horribly. And that were backyard 3rd world countries. A conflict involving China would be an utter bloodshed, especially if it devolves into nuclear war, and it would totally destroy the US and probably EU economy.
We're seeing how much we depend on China now with the 'rona crisis, and that is a "China does their best effort to fulfill Western orders for anything from toys to medical PPE" scenario and not a "China is at war with the US and doesn't deliver anything to them and their allies" scenario. Politicians have also realized this but renationalizing even parts of what was outsourced to China will take decades. Until that happens China has the Western states by the balls, figuratively - and given how they acted with delivering PPE "donations" to Italy and other states that the EU left to fend alone they know this and are absolutely willing to use this as leverage to keep the US and EU from interfering in their eradications of Uighur Muslims and Tibetan people.
at what environmental cost though? Say what you will about the US, it does a decent enough job at protecting the environment from business. If we poison the planet in the process of bringing millions out of poverty I think that's a net loss.
suyash(2)
AU_Wow1gle(1)
troughway(4)
Well that's the quickest I've ever seen reality prove itself stranger than I could have ever imagined:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23186174
I'd be taking bets on how quickly this is going to turn out poorly, but my last tiny ember of faith in any corporate actor being capable of rational thought just got extinguished, so I could be really wrong!
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23186174
I'd be taking bets on how quickly this is going to turn out poorly, but my last tiny ember of faith in any corporate actor being capable of rational thought just got extinguished, so I could be really wrong!
What a useless comment. You have no explanation and are just relying on your ill conceived gut feeling, which has been clearly proving wrong, to say this doesn't make sense. Why should anyone trust you?
I am an Internet commentator. You don't have to trust me. That's the beauty of Internet discussion sites!
I have an actual reason, and it's in the thread I linked, and in my reply to another response to this comment.
The above comment was for two reasons: one, to publicly acknowledge that a guess I had made just a small time ago was wrong (that TSMC executives were rational actors, or if nothing else, not drastically short-sighted), and secondly to exclaim that I still believe that this is an incredibly short-sighted and quite frankly stupid decision.
EDIT: changed some words to be more generous to TSMC's executives.
I have an actual reason, and it's in the thread I linked, and in my reply to another response to this comment.
The above comment was for two reasons: one, to publicly acknowledge that a guess I had made just a small time ago was wrong (that TSMC executives were rational actors, or if nothing else, not drastically short-sighted), and secondly to exclaim that I still believe that this is an incredibly short-sighted and quite frankly stupid decision.
EDIT: changed some words to be more generous to TSMC's executives.
why is TSMC building a plant in the US an irrational thought?
part of me is curious if this is a way to appease the administration due to high pressure [0] and wait out the next election cycle. They are talking about 2021-2029.
Even if Trump is reelected, I could see them leasing an existing fab and have a ribbon cutting ceremony for Trump to get his photo-op and then just weigh their options with minimal additional expenditure (they've already commented on opening a fab in US won't be economical [1]) with the thinking that a few $million spent on a lease and avoiding antagonizing Trump might all be worthwhile in any kind of tariffs on their business.
[0] http://archive.is/XYzCd
[1] https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/TSMC-weighs-new-...
edited my post by adding these articles as well as editing the text to better reference the links
Even if Trump is reelected, I could see them leasing an existing fab and have a ribbon cutting ceremony for Trump to get his photo-op and then just weigh their options with minimal additional expenditure (they've already commented on opening a fab in US won't be economical [1]) with the thinking that a few $million spent on a lease and avoiding antagonizing Trump might all be worthwhile in any kind of tariffs on their business.
[0] http://archive.is/XYzCd
[1] https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/TSMC-weighs-new-...
edited my post by adding these articles as well as editing the text to better reference the links
The thing is WI is already mad at Foxconn for doing that. AZ is even more of swing state so I don't know if same trick will work twice
TSMC found it won't be economical unless subsidized. My understanding is that TSMC managed to get commitment to subsidy from US federal government and the State of Arizona.
> This facility, which will be built in Arizona, will utilize TSMC’s 5-nanometer technology for semiconductor wafer fabrication
Wow Intel can't even get 10 nm working. Big win for Apple and AMD tho.
Wow Intel can't even get 10 nm working. Big win for Apple and AMD tho.
Isn't Intel's fab always better than TSMC's? Intel 10nm competes with TSMC's 7nm
By the time Intel gets anywhere near the 10nm production volume that TSMC does on 7nm right now, TSMC will probably already be moving to 5nm.
Its also difficult to say that "Intel 10nm competes with TSMC's 7nm" because in so many ways, it doesnt. Ice Lake server was supposed to be out this year with a new microarchitechture (the first since Skylake), but still is nowhere to be seen (though it certainly seems likely the big cloud players already have early silicon).
Its also difficult to say that "Intel 10nm competes with TSMC's 7nm" because in so many ways, it doesnt. Ice Lake server was supposed to be out this year with a new microarchitechture (the first since Skylake), but still is nowhere to be seen (though it certainly seems likely the big cloud players already have early silicon).
Intel's 10nm as originally planned would have been superior to TSMC's original 7nm, if Intel's 10nm had actually been functional. But it didn't work and got cancelled and what they're calling 10nm now is what would have been called "10nm+" if they hadn't renamed their entire roadmap to cover up the failure. I'm not sure how close Intel's shipping 10nm comes to TSMC's original 7nm, but that's rapidly becoming irrelevant now that TSMC's 7nm+ with EUV is up and running.
agree. AMD 4000 mobile chip already win a lot of praises even tho TSMC 7nm supposed to be inferior compare to Intel 10nm. we are talking about 7nm in production right now compare to Intel still struggling with 10nm and squeezing 14nm forever. its a win for TSMC. by the time Intel 10nm is on mass production, TSMC 5nm or even 3nm will be out.
Intel have no 10nm parts so how would we know if it's better? TSMC are shipping millions of working 7nm parts today.
10nm Intel laptops have been on the market for at least six months now, for example in the XPS 13 2-in-1. The new MacBook Air and Pro 13 also ship with Intel 10nm CPUs. While Intel had a lot of trouble getting 10nm production to work and are still only shipping mobile chips, they are selling useful 10nm chips now.
I’m excited to see a hedge against China in the form of better foreign relations with others and a revival of domestic manufacturing.
Only 20,000 wafers per month is between mini- and megafab for TSMC. I suspect the production goes to US defense applications. Pompeo tweeting about it seems to confirm it.
https://twitter.com/SecPompeo/status/1261143980634509318?
>Secretary Pompeo >@SecPompeo
>The U.S. welcomes TSMC’s intention to invest $12B in the most advanced 5-nanometer semiconductor fabrication foundry in the world. This deal bolsters U.S. national security at a time when China is trying to dominate cutting-edge tech and control critical industries.