Tesla plans to build a new car factory in Texas(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
Tesla plans to build a new car factory in Texas
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/05/report-tesla-plans-to-build-a-new-car-factory-in-texas/
162 comments
> Going full alt-right MAGA is going to cut his customer base in half, at least in the US and Europe.
Putting my best effort to be charitable here: he could be opening up a whole new market that is opposed to tree-huggers, fuel efficiency and Priuses. Texas loves trucks, the Cybertruck will be henceforth known as the Freedom Cybertruck and the Texas Edition will come with a complementary "Come and take it" sticker.
"Southern Heritage" flag interior design & center console wallpaper will be a paid extra.
Putting my best effort to be charitable here: he could be opening up a whole new market that is opposed to tree-huggers, fuel efficiency and Priuses. Texas loves trucks, the Cybertruck will be henceforth known as the Freedom Cybertruck and the Texas Edition will come with a complementary "Come and take it" sticker.
"Southern Heritage" flag interior design & center console wallpaper will be a paid extra.
I think it's helpful to remember that Musk being in the media is the primary plank in Tesla's marketing effort. So being controversial and therefore being in the media is literally a part of his job. Even before covid-19 got serious Tesla had already said they were looking for a factory location "in the midwest possibly Texas". So that's not some reaction to being shut down in California.
Another aspect though is that right now Tesla is building a new factory in Germany and will start very soon a new factory near Austin. Building these simultaneously will be such a severe drain on Tesla's cash flow that they can ill afford having their California factory shut down for long. In this circumstance Musk could well become hot under the collar especially if he feels Tesla has done enough to mitigate risk to Tesla employees.
Another aspect though is that right now Tesla is building a new factory in Germany and will start very soon a new factory near Austin. Building these simultaneously will be such a severe drain on Tesla's cash flow that they can ill afford having their California factory shut down for long. In this circumstance Musk could well become hot under the collar especially if he feels Tesla has done enough to mitigate risk to Tesla employees.
this is an awesome take- musk has been playing 4d chess all along, getting hard-core conservatives to buy into renewable energy..
This is a very charitable interpretation of Elon Musk's recent outbursts.
This might come as a shock to you but most people do not care what the political opinions or behavior of a car manufacturer's CEO are. Likewise the internet does not at all reflect the views of your average person, and I would wager that despite Tesla fanatics being very aware of Musk and his eccentric behavior, most Tesla owners moving forward won't even know or care who the CEO is as they rollout to mass market. This won't make a dent in his customer base. Musk is beyond reproach at this point, his "fuck you" warchest is too big.
A lot of Tesla's customers came to it because of the politics of buying a car that doesn't use gasoline.
Now that other companies are finally catching up (or at least I hope they do), those same customers will have choices. Tesla has really been the only long-range choice, so of course they are going to dominate. They also make a really good car, that makes their customers happy.
Marketing and branding have huge impacts on a lot of car purchases. If Musk narrows his brand appeal by contributing to the US's partisan divide, that has a lot of potential to dent his consumer base. How many of those expensive trucks out there are ever used for truck things? So many car purchases are about image! (Though obviously not all.)
Now that other companies are finally catching up (or at least I hope they do), those same customers will have choices. Tesla has really been the only long-range choice, so of course they are going to dominate. They also make a really good car, that makes their customers happy.
Marketing and branding have huge impacts on a lot of car purchases. If Musk narrows his brand appeal by contributing to the US's partisan divide, that has a lot of potential to dent his consumer base. How many of those expensive trucks out there are ever used for truck things? So many car purchases are about image! (Though obviously not all.)
> I'm quite the Musk fanboy
Still? I can understand still being a fan of Tesla or SpaceX, but I'm suspicious of anyone that's followed Musk's behavior recently and is still like "that's my guy!"
Still? I can understand still being a fan of Tesla or SpaceX, but I'm suspicious of anyone that's followed Musk's behavior recently and is still like "that's my guy!"
> Musk has been completely unhinged the last few weeks
The most logical guess I can make is he on some new drugs that's starting to damage his brain. Some form of synthetic or maybe good ol heroin.
The most logical guess I can make is he on some new drugs that's starting to damage his brain. Some form of synthetic or maybe good ol heroin.
I don't agree with his behavior but I don't feel how he's recently acted is extreme for him. The whole covid-19 quarantine has been painful for everyone, and it obviously causes a specific pain point for Tesla because of state and county-specific orders. Him flipping out about it is mostly expected, or at least more expected than his random $420 tweet, or his concerted effort to keep talking/emailing about Vernon Unsworth months after the cave rescue.
He could be beta testing the neural link tech.
"Republicans buy shoes too". He even referred to taking both pills in the very next tweet, but some people are too dense to understand what he meant.
He needs sales volume and the progressive part of the population is not enough. Onboarding more conservatives is his only option. Progressives do not have many viable alternatives to what Tesla is offering, bait and hook. Classic diffusion of innovation what Musk does, the sequence of Tesla models are 100% reflecting different parts of the bell curve.
Elon dabbling in civil liberties activism and countering far-left "rose twitter" with the rose emoji and red pill phrase is not "going full alt-right" -- the political spectrum is more nuanced than that.
I'm already looking at the competitors to the Model 3 that are coming out in the next few years. I have loved this car, but Musk is toxic and I don't want to be finding him anymore. I know maybe 5 other people with Teslas, and two others have already said they're looking to switch too.
Part of the Tesla story was that it could be a California pride thing. When Musk makes the state his enemy, and acts like an idiot, and is simultaneously an absolute publicity whore that claims credit for all sort of work that is not his, well, he had better be ready to accept the consequences for acting like a traitor in a war.
Part of the Tesla story was that it could be a California pride thing. When Musk makes the state his enemy, and acts like an idiot, and is simultaneously an absolute publicity whore that claims credit for all sort of work that is not his, well, he had better be ready to accept the consequences for acting like a traitor in a war.
"Part of the Tesla story was that it could be a California pride thing."
Lol.
Can humans ever drop the tribalism, I wonder? To be fair, Musk is totally playing the same game.
I've held out for a long time, denouncing both sides as stupid. But I'm getting tired of seeing everyone else just say fuck it, grab a beer, a bible, a shotgun, and go full blown alt-right. Or say fuck it, grab a cell phone camera, and go full blown virtue signaling gotcha culture alt-left.
Seems like everyone needs to play on some team, and needs somebody to hate these days.
I just want a cool car that doesn't pollute the planet, because I believe thats a shitty thing to do. If you don't feel the same way, it's all good brother.
Lol.
Can humans ever drop the tribalism, I wonder? To be fair, Musk is totally playing the same game.
I've held out for a long time, denouncing both sides as stupid. But I'm getting tired of seeing everyone else just say fuck it, grab a beer, a bible, a shotgun, and go full blown alt-right. Or say fuck it, grab a cell phone camera, and go full blown virtue signaling gotcha culture alt-left.
Seems like everyone needs to play on some team, and needs somebody to hate these days.
I just want a cool car that doesn't pollute the planet, because I believe thats a shitty thing to do. If you don't feel the same way, it's all good brother.
Don't worry, the majority of people are like you. I forget the numbers but something like 10% of twitter accounts are making 99% of tweets; reading things online can skew your view of the world. You will only ever hear from the very vocal minorities because the rest of us just don't care.
I'm not even talking about the alt-right turns. I'm talking about non-partisan hostilities towards our state and the weird science denialism around SARS-CoV-2. General values that I see in most Bay Area engineers.
Add in alt-right and he's going to lose a hell of a lot more people than those who love in California and love it and prefer to support local economies when possible.
Add in alt-right and he's going to lose a hell of a lot more people than those who love in California and love it and prefer to support local economies when possible.
"But Musk is said to want to start construction extremely soon and aims to have Model Y vehicles coming out of the plant by the end of the year."
That is just delusional.
That is just delusional.
I think the rule with Elon Musk is all his estimates are extremely optimistic and you need to multiply them by two or three to get closer to reality.
But I'm sure it serves a purpose in giving his employees an aggressive target to aim at. Even if they miss it, at least they probably got there sooner.
But I'm sure it serves a purpose in giving his employees an aggressive target to aim at. Even if they miss it, at least they probably got there sooner.
Well, it depends on a lot of initial conditions that outsiders can't see. If Tesla wants to throw up a steel frame building in an already empty field in Texas or Oklahoma, that's not hard to do. It would take a few months. And during the Model 3 production ramp up, Tesla put together an entirely new assembly line using on-hand spare parts in a matter of days. So if they have an entire Model Y assembly line sitting in storage rooms in California, Nevada, and New York, which very likely they do, it might only take a few weeks to truck all of that to Texas or Oklahoma. Of course that completely ignores quarantine complications. Which might actually help Tesla. Right now, red states are so eager to get positive "restart the economy" news and millions of recently unemployed people are so eager to get jobs that Governor Abbott of Texas might cut mountains of red tape to green light whatever Tesla needs. I would say it's totally feasible for Tesla to be producing Model Y's from a new facility in Texas by the end of 2020. Certainly not at high volume. Potentially from a tent in the parking lot of an unfinished factory building. They've done it before.
Musk rarely gives estimates, but targets (used to motivate people, for instance, and to overcompensate any unexpected issue or mistake).
I'm looking for his most ambitious and oldest targets and so far, most of them have been reached/exceeded. The most important one being the 500,000 production vehicles run rate for 2020 and 35 GWh battery production for Gigafactory Nevaga. Multiplying that duration by 2 or 3 would bring us to 2027 or 2034... If you can find an even bigger and older target, please share so we can re-evaluate.
I'm looking for his most ambitious and oldest targets and so far, most of them have been reached/exceeded. The most important one being the 500,000 production vehicles run rate for 2020 and 35 GWh battery production for Gigafactory Nevaga. Multiplying that duration by 2 or 3 would bring us to 2027 or 2034... If you can find an even bigger and older target, please share so we can re-evaluate.
His track record on things like self driving is not even close to accurate. But that's to be expected, manufacturing is more engineering and self driving is more research. Engineering is easier to estimate (note, still not easy!)
His track record on the NUMMI plant wasn't very good either.
Over-automation and many other issues.
Yet, they keep completing their overall objectives. Why do subsidiary goals like level of automation (remember the fluff bot failure [0]) matter? How could one learn and progress without trials and errors?
[0] https://qz.com/1268647/elon-musk-says-a-fluff-bot-showed-him...
[0] https://qz.com/1268647/elon-musk-says-a-fluff-bot-showed-him...
> But I'm sure it serves a purpose in giving his employees an aggressive target to aim at. Even if they miss it, at least they probably got there sooner.
That only works until the employees quickly realize the estimates are impossible bullshit, and stop taking them seriously.
That only works until the employees quickly realize the estimates are impossible bullshit, and stop taking them seriously.
Also lowers morale. If employees can never hit a target, they will become depressed.
Well that’s where management steps in and doesn’t let you disregard the deadline. It makes for a miserable work experience but you can probably achieve a lot that way.
> Well that’s where management steps in and doesn’t let you disregard the deadline. It makes for a miserable work experience but you can probably achieve a lot that way.
That's the kind of management that would go whip the sea for disobedience.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_I#Invasion_of_the_Greek...
> According to the Greek historian Herodotus, Xerxes's first attempt to bridge the Hellespont ended in failure when a storm destroyed the flax and papyrus cables of the bridges. In retaliation, Xerxes ordered the Hellespont (the strait itself) whipped three hundred times, and had fetters thrown into the water.
That's the kind of management that would go whip the sea for disobedience.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerxes_I#Invasion_of_the_Greek...
> According to the Greek historian Herodotus, Xerxes's first attempt to bridge the Hellespont ended in failure when a storm destroyed the flax and papyrus cables of the bridges. In retaliation, Xerxes ordered the Hellespont (the strait itself) whipped three hundred times, and had fetters thrown into the water.
Reminds me of the iterated prisoners dilemma style party planning I've experienced with my compatriots, where the host expects everyone to be at least an hour late and sets the party start time an hour earlier than they want, and of course the guests expect this and show up two hours late, and so on. The few people (host or guests) who take start time literally are slowly driven insane.
No. Unrealistic schedules don't help getting anything done.
I hope they have real plans for the real work, while the CEO throws out PR bombs.
I hope they have real plans for the real work, while the CEO throws out PR bombs.
"First, I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the Earth."
Seems to have worked
Seems to have worked
Once.
With a cherry picked sample of one, you can prove anything.
Shanghai GF was built in time, for example.
Though, I guess in this case it's to put some pressure on Texan government burocracy to hurry up with permits etc.
Over here at Giga Berlin, the local government issued temporary permits extremely quickly (for German standards) but it takes still longer to get all the paperwork done than it took to actually built Giga Shanghai.
Though, I guess in this case it's to put some pressure on Texan government burocracy to hurry up with permits etc.
Over here at Giga Berlin, the local government issued temporary permits extremely quickly (for German standards) but it takes still longer to get all the paperwork done than it took to actually built Giga Shanghai.
> But I'm sure it serves a purpose in giving his employees an aggressive target to aim at. Even if they miss it, at least they probably got there sooner.
That would require an executive board entirely detached from both reality and what their own experts have to say regarding the feasibility of those plans.
That would require an executive board entirely detached from both reality and what their own experts have to say regarding the feasibility of those plans.
He does occasionally hit the estimates - people have provided examples in this thread.
I think he tries to just publicise the unpadded, best-case-scenario estimates rather than the best-guess estimates to push people to eliminate any slack in the project.
I think he tries to just publicise the unpadded, best-case-scenario estimates rather than the best-guess estimates to push people to eliminate any slack in the project.
It always stuns me what people are able to explain away when it comes to these Captains of Industry.
If we can realize the goal is ridiculous, surely the engineers who work on this full time will realize it's ridiculous.
If we can realize the goal is ridiculous, surely the engineers who work on this full time will realize it's ridiculous.
And maybe their takeaway is the same as ours: "This is a big priority and I need to get it done ASAP". Isn't that exactly what Musk is trying to get across?
Urgency and scarcity also encourage folks to find solutions that they wouldn’t otherwise search for if they could just wait for the status quo approach.
The flip side to doing things that don’t scale is that once those practices become a standard part of your operations you are forced to figure out how to scale them. This causes you to find the scalability hell or high water whereas if you didn’t do the thing in the first place you never would have invented the scalability.
The flip side to doing things that don’t scale is that once those practices become a standard part of your operations you are forced to figure out how to scale them. This causes you to find the scalability hell or high water whereas if you didn’t do the thing in the first place you never would have invented the scalability.
If you were in a meeting where an executive set a clearly impossible goal, would you be more likely to feel a huge swell of motivation or to grumble at the water cooler about clueless business types ignoring the engineers?
[deleted]
Perhaps they got there sooner, but at what cost to their health, relationships, and sanity?
>I think the rule with Elon Musk is all his estimates are extremely optimistic and you need to multiply them by two or three to get closer to reality.
What about all the promises that have been made that never came to fruition? Do we just exclude those from this formula?
What about all the promises that have been made that never came to fruition? Do we just exclude those from this formula?
Did he say "I promise"?
Look at the time line for the model 3 factor in China.
According to Wikipedia (german article on Tesla Gigafactory 3), Tesla went from the ground-breaking ceremony at beginning of january 2019 in Shanghai to first cars produced there in november of the same year.
They might be getting practice in building factories (what's the learning curve for car factories?).
They might be getting practice in building factories (what's the learning curve for car factories?).
I assumed this was due to Chinese experience building factories and a large labor pool, would be impressive to replicate that time here.
The safety requirements are so much more lax that I'm willing to bet it makes building a factory much quicker in China.
Probably also more lax in TX than CA
Not a chance, I worked with similarly regulated providers in the US.
CA is more lax than TX? I find that surprising.
https://workinjurysource.com/workplace-injury-statistics-201...
> States with Non-Fatal Workplace Illness and Injury Rates Above the National Average:
> California
> States with Non-Fatal Workplace Illness and Injury Rates Below the National Average:
> Texas
It's completely possible that Texas is less adversarial/bureaucratic or similar than California, but whatever they're doing is working.
Though it could be cultural differences. Government regulations are often half good best practices and half harmful backwards nonsense. A culture that only calls OSHA for not following best practices even after having it pointed out and not for not implementing backwards nonsense could pretty easily end up with a better safety record than one that prioritizes strict compliance over actual safety.
> States with Non-Fatal Workplace Illness and Injury Rates Above the National Average:
> California
> States with Non-Fatal Workplace Illness and Injury Rates Below the National Average:
> Texas
It's completely possible that Texas is less adversarial/bureaucratic or similar than California, but whatever they're doing is working.
Though it could be cultural differences. Government regulations are often half good best practices and half harmful backwards nonsense. A culture that only calls OSHA for not following best practices even after having it pointed out and not for not implementing backwards nonsense could pretty easily end up with a better safety record than one that prioritizes strict compliance over actual safety.
That statistic is nearly completely useless for comparison.
For starters, it's measuring non-fatal illnesses. If your regulatory regime is converting otherwise fatal accidents to non-fatal ones, then you're going to have higher rates despite being safer. (Historically, this has happened: the introduction of helmets in WW1 caused head injury rates to go up... because people who otherwise died now lived with a head injury instead).
Another point is that states have quite different workplace characteristics, so the baseline risks are going to be quite different. Working in a coal mine is going to be an inherently more dangerous job than being a paper-pusher in an office tower. Unsurprisingly, West Virginia (which has a lot more of the former than the latter) is in the above-average list and New York (which has the reverse) is in the below-average list.
Finally... there's no mention of the degree of difference at all.
For starters, it's measuring non-fatal illnesses. If your regulatory regime is converting otherwise fatal accidents to non-fatal ones, then you're going to have higher rates despite being safer. (Historically, this has happened: the introduction of helmets in WW1 caused head injury rates to go up... because people who otherwise died now lived with a head injury instead).
Another point is that states have quite different workplace characteristics, so the baseline risks are going to be quite different. Working in a coal mine is going to be an inherently more dangerous job than being a paper-pusher in an office tower. Unsurprisingly, West Virginia (which has a lot more of the former than the latter) is in the above-average list and New York (which has the reverse) is in the below-average list.
Finally... there's no mention of the degree of difference at all.
> For starters, it's measuring non-fatal illnesses.
This actually helps to mitigate your other point, because all types of industries can have non-fatal injuries from things like overexertion or slips on wet floors but fatal injuries are dominated by dangerous industries like mining, transportation and agriculture that differ by state.
The fatal injury rate between states is quite incomparable in particular because motor vehicle accidents are the leading cause of death among working-aged people, and the rate will be higher in states that are more spread out because workers in all industries there log more vehicle miles for work (and at higher average speeds).
> Finally... there's no mention of the degree of difference at all.
Texas can't be worse if it's better.
This actually helps to mitigate your other point, because all types of industries can have non-fatal injuries from things like overexertion or slips on wet floors but fatal injuries are dominated by dangerous industries like mining, transportation and agriculture that differ by state.
The fatal injury rate between states is quite incomparable in particular because motor vehicle accidents are the leading cause of death among working-aged people, and the rate will be higher in states that are more spread out because workers in all industries there log more vehicle miles for work (and at higher average speeds).
> Finally... there's no mention of the degree of difference at all.
Texas can't be worse if it's better.
I think he said TX is not more lax than CA, which doesn't mean CA is more lax either. It's possible their safety regimes are simply similar.
I think a lot of workplace safety rolls up to the feds anyway, so it wouldn't matter which state you choose.
I think a lot of workplace safety rolls up to the feds anyway, so it wouldn't matter which state you choose.
What makes you think this?
Part of the state's business model is bragging about businesses "fleeing" high-tax, high-regulation states like CA.
Also, there was a thread a few days back about OSHA requirements; the Federal government sets minimum standards but each state's OSHA is free to set higher standard on top of that.
There is a line of thinking (at least, among Tesla apologists) that CalOSHA is "the reason" that Tesla has the "most reported safety incidents" of auto mfgrs.
Also, there was a thread a few days back about OSHA requirements; the Federal government sets minimum standards but each state's OSHA is free to set higher standard on top of that.
There is a line of thinking (at least, among Tesla apologists) that CalOSHA is "the reason" that Tesla has the "most reported safety incidents" of auto mfgrs.
So they've already built a factory in under a year, but it's delusional to think they could cut that time by 30-40%?
I don't think it's likely to happen, but delusional is a stretch.
I don't think it's likely to happen, but delusional is a stretch.
Well, construction in China != construction in the US.
US has permits, environmental reviews, inspections, labor laws, etc etc that all add time.
US has permits, environmental reviews, inspections, labor laws, etc etc that all add time.
Texas is rolling out the mat for Tesla [1]. They will move faster on permitting and reviews. Tesla seems to be moving quickly with GF4 construction in Berlin [2], even with German labor laws (which is good! you still have to make sure labor regulation is adhered to). Texas is not California. The deadline is not set in stone; it is an aspirational goal to motivate.
Lots of oil and gas (O&G) construction/services folks looking for work right now in Texas [3], so it's a good time for Tesla to move in. Also, Texas has an abundance of cheap wind energy they can't export due to ERCOT interconnect capacity issues. The SpaceX McGregor engine development and static fire test facility is only 90 minutes north of Austin, and Tesla already has an Autopilot R&D office there for the engineers they hired from AMD. Good pick for the next factory. Maybe a SpaceX HQ relo is in future plans.
[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-tesla-... (Musk, Texas governor talk about potential Tesla move to Lone Star state)
[2] https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gigafactory-4-berlin-ground-...
[3] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/business/energy-environme...
Lots of oil and gas (O&G) construction/services folks looking for work right now in Texas [3], so it's a good time for Tesla to move in. Also, Texas has an abundance of cheap wind energy they can't export due to ERCOT interconnect capacity issues. The SpaceX McGregor engine development and static fire test facility is only 90 minutes north of Austin, and Tesla already has an Autopilot R&D office there for the engineers they hired from AMD. Good pick for the next factory. Maybe a SpaceX HQ relo is in future plans.
[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-tesla-... (Musk, Texas governor talk about potential Tesla move to Lone Star state)
[2] https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gigafactory-4-berlin-ground-...
[3] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/business/energy-environme...
You’ll need a Cybertruck given the condition IH-35 is in.
Texas Transportation Commission just approved $3.4 billion in funding last month to reconstruct 35 through Austin, so there's hope.
Will still take a Cybertruck though.
Will still take a Cybertruck though.
If I thinking of moving back, that would kill it for me.
Hey, it's the guy who called Tesla a "good corporate citizen" just a few months ago. Let's add: breaking stay-at-home orders, called the US government "fascist" while praising China, hired people to hack the personal computers of a whistleblower (as reported in a recent deposition filing), extorted the California government, and forced their workers back to the factory floor amid the pandemic to the list of "good" things.
Still stand by what I said. COVID response by Alameda County was overblown (including extended stay at home orders), California chose not to provide $600k in training funding to SpaceX after Tesla and SpaceX have created tens of thousands of jobs in the state (because they're non-union shops), and Fremont is following rigorous guidelines to mitigate the threat of COVID infections on the factory floor. Your only legitimate complaint is pursuing a whistleblower (that's fair, and uncalled for on Tesla's part).
How unreasonable must your jurisdiction be before you're permitted to take your business elsewhere and it isn't slandered as "extortion"? OSHA regulations apply in all 50 states, and both taxes and land costs are legitimately lower in Texas. Is every other company that has moved out of California extortionist?
How unreasonable must your jurisdiction be before you're permitted to take your business elsewhere and it isn't slandered as "extortion"? OSHA regulations apply in all 50 states, and both taxes and land costs are legitimately lower in Texas. Is every other company that has moved out of California extortionist?
I don't get how you can think it is overblown. Is that just because you personally haven't gotten horribly sick or have someone you know died? We have over 100,000 deaths already and it is still rising, and is likely only a fraction of the real numbers since testing is still shitty and unavailable for the vast majority of people. Nursing homes near me have had literally 1/3 of their total occupancy die from covid.
If quarantine procedures are done correctly, the result should be nobody notices anything at all and they think it is overblown. But I don't think we are anywhere near that point right now even, it seems like denial to me to pretend like we aren't in the middle of a shit storm.
If quarantine procedures are done correctly, the result should be nobody notices anything at all and they think it is overblown. But I don't think we are anywhere near that point right now even, it seems like denial to me to pretend like we aren't in the middle of a shit storm.
Being that Alameda County (and neighboring Santa Clara County) have the highest number of COVID cases in the Bay Area[1], I would argue that their response was not overblown and likely had numbers to back why they were being aggressive.
[1] https://abc7news.com/bay-area-coronavirus-update-california-...
[1] https://abc7news.com/bay-area-coronavirus-update-california-...
<100 deaths & <3k cases total in a county with 1.66 million people is noise compared to the usual suspects.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/california/califor...
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/california/califor...
So now your argument is that Alameda County's health measures worked and we should listen to medical experts when it comes to infectious disease management. Seems like you're trying to have it both ways.
In Texas all kinds of weird stuff is possible thanks to undocumented labor with ambiguous rights-
https://www.texastribune.org/2020/04/27/meatpacking-texas-co...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/06/opinion/sunday/coronaviru...
https://www.texastribune.org/2020/04/27/meatpacking-texas-co...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/06/opinion/sunday/coronaviru...
Didn't they also have a factory that was a glorified tent whilst they were finishing one of their previous builds?
Tesla's tent assembly line is very much alive. That's where they make Model 3's. It's called GA4.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/15/tesla-workers-in-ga4-tent-de...
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/15/tesla-workers-in-ga4-tent-de...
For comparison: SpaceX builds rockets in tents.
Built in about a month... granted, they already had other things like parking lots, rail lines, etc, in place.
To be clear China built Tesla a factory in a year, it is a big difference.
Exactly. I think some HNers would be amazed if they read the terms associated with Tesla doing business in China.
Can you post or link to them?
I can't find a source, but the main one I remember is that all profits made in China had to stay in China.
Edit: this is something I read on a comment here and seem totally unsubstantiated. However Bloomberg reports some of the conditions here. https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-07-30/tesla...
It seems they have a pretty big sword hanging over there head, but I don't know how it compares to the usual conditions.
Edit: this is something I read on a comment here and seem totally unsubstantiated. However Bloomberg reports some of the conditions here. https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2019-07-30/tesla...
It seems they have a pretty big sword hanging over there head, but I don't know how it compares to the usual conditions.
He has no sense of time. Every year they're supposed to have robotaxis by the end of the year and they've only just started to jankily handle stoplights
Back in 2013, they targeted 35GWh of battery production in 2020 for 500K/y vehicles (source: https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/blog_attachments/g...)
They've already exceeded that run rate on production and delivery (both batteries and vehicles) while being profitable.
They do have ~a million cars on the road but the software is neither capable of self-driving nor car sharing. They year isn't over, though, and the comment about robotaxis was that the car would be feature-complete[0], not operational.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_complete
They've already exceeded that run rate on production and delivery (both batteries and vehicles) while being profitable.
They do have ~a million cars on the road but the software is neither capable of self-driving nor car sharing. They year isn't over, though, and the comment about robotaxis was that the car would be feature-complete[0], not operational.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_complete
He wasn't off his rocker as much in 2013 as he is now. Sleep deprivation and possibly drugs really do wonders for mental health long term....
Yet, his companies are in a much better position compared to 2013. What should one be worried about? The name of his children and his Twitter rants/jokes?
Or how the companies we're talking about are actually performing?
Or how the companies we're talking about are actually performing?
Do you think you might be oversimplifying complex human behavior to a fault? Especially with no real insight into his behavior?
Rest of the companies doing that are in more or less the same boat. Tesla ahead of all of them in bringing some pieces of the autonomy to market.
Other companies have made over-optimistic predictions but not on the same scale and with the same frequency. Tesla is ahead of them on the "bringing to market" part but not on the autonomy part, where they're not really working on the same level of difficulty problems as the ones trying for L4.
Tesla are aiming for full self driving, aren't they? If they have managed to find a simpler problem set that will still allow them to reach that outcome and release incrementally, isn't that a smarter approach?
I think that releasing a product is still completely orthogonal to building an autonomous vehicle at this point, so it's maybe a smarter approach for their bottom line but doesn't get them to autonomy any faster.
I think to accept that delivering incrementally is helpful for making an L4 car you have to believe that having more data is the bottleneck, which probably isn't the case after a few million miles.
I think to accept that delivering incrementally is helpful for making an L4 car you have to believe that having more data is the bottleneck, which probably isn't the case after a few million miles.
From the article I read on Electrek on this, they speculated that in the first phase this could be a general assembly only. Considering they built an additional line in a tent in Fremont once, 6 Months is not crazy.
https://electrek.co/2020/05/15/tesla-factory-austin-texas/
https://electrek.co/2020/05/15/tesla-factory-austin-texas/
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Keep in mind, this isn't a brand new line/model. They have an existing line in place in China at least, they just need to copy it. They also built a new line in a giant tent in CA in a few weeks.
I'd think that, but I have to say that china model 3 factory went from mud to producing cars amazingly quickly. The ended up being what 9 months ahead of schedule?
this is simply to keep the stock price at a certain level. half of everything he says is to feed into an image which keeps that stock at that level.
But didn't he say a couple of weeks ago that Tesla's stock price is too high? So is he trying to increase or decrease the stock price?
That is such nonsensical believe that is blows my mind that people actually think it.
Do you really think Elon has a whole communication strategy design to 'keep the stock high' but then tweets 'the stock is to high'. How exactly does that make any sense at all?
He does the exact same thing with SpaceX and there is no stock market there. Why would he do that?
This has been his method before Tesla was a stock company as well. The same for the Boring company that only has a few investors, mostly him.
The reason he says what he says is the same as it has always been and he has explained this 100 times already, he sets targets that are very optimistic and he sets them publicaly, and even if they are off by 10% it still very fast. You can't achieve high goals unless you set them, and that is what he believes and how he has run his companies.
Elon has also said 100x that the short term stock market really doesn't matter to him, and he has proven that over and over again.
The reason for the stock price is not because what Musk says but what people believe the company can do and because Elon makes it clear what the priority is for them. It does not mean more then 1% of inverters believe Model Y will actually roll of the line in Texas by the end of they year.
Do you really think Elon has a whole communication strategy design to 'keep the stock high' but then tweets 'the stock is to high'. How exactly does that make any sense at all?
He does the exact same thing with SpaceX and there is no stock market there. Why would he do that?
This has been his method before Tesla was a stock company as well. The same for the Boring company that only has a few investors, mostly him.
The reason he says what he says is the same as it has always been and he has explained this 100 times already, he sets targets that are very optimistic and he sets them publicaly, and even if they are off by 10% it still very fast. You can't achieve high goals unless you set them, and that is what he believes and how he has run his companies.
Elon has also said 100x that the short term stock market really doesn't matter to him, and he has proven that over and over again.
The reason for the stock price is not because what Musk says but what people believe the company can do and because Elon makes it clear what the priority is for them. It does not mean more then 1% of inverters believe Model Y will actually roll of the line in Texas by the end of they year.
what if the slow stage is acquiring the heavy machinery (stamps, industrial robotics), and those are available with less delay than before?
maybe. but they’re getting better at building the machine that builds the machine that builds the machine.
Chinese labor? That's the machine that built their most recent machine that builds the machine.
Over-indexing on fancy production automation is part of what made the Model 3 launch so painful for them, as admitted by Elon himself. They probably could have had a much happier path spending less capital on a slower, more traditional production ramp-up.
Over-indexing on fancy production automation is part of what made the Model 3 launch so painful for them, as admitted by Elon himself. They probably could have had a much happier path spending less capital on a slower, more traditional production ramp-up.
That’s the scale most don’t realize he’s operating at. With a goal of settling 100,000 on Mars, he has to reach a point of practically commoditizing production of factories.
Maybe he should get better at building cars.
In America yeah. They did it in China.
I get the feeling this was already planned. Freemont doesn't have much spare land to increase manufacturing capacity. California has to be more expensive (Labor, Regulations) than manufacturing in Texas.
Even if you'd need to fly your R&D team between Texas and California, you'd still be saving money
Even if you'd need to fly your R&D team between Texas and California, you'd still be saving money
In some vague "regulations" way, possibly, but the published hourly rates of Tesla Fremont workers are not especially high. (I just googled the average as being less than twenty dollars, which can't possibly be right, but I do remember the figure being low by autoworker standards)
The thought that they might pay even less in Texas is depressing.
The thought that they might pay even less in Texas is depressing.
$20/hr for blue collar work in a lot of Texas is very high. For example, Amazon was paying $12/hr in the San Marcos facility until they raised wages recently, and that was considered decent pay. $8-10/hr is pretty common for unskilled labor here. We have a lot of tech and oil and gas that influences the average income but tons of people here are working for way less than $20/hr.
Yeah, $10-15/hour for a lot of non-skilled labor or even low-qualification desk jobs is typical in the Houston area. The average home price here is 1/13th that of Fremont, to say nothing of areas outside of major cities.
Indeed shows assembler salary at Toyota San Antonio at $12.89
https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Toyota/salaries/assembler/San-Ant...
> I just googled the average as being less than twenty dollars, which can't possibly be right,
It's right. You don't go to Tesla to make tons of money or have a good work-Life balance, you're there to contribute to a passion project with like minded individuals with certain known sunk opportunity-costs: this includes salary. (The engineering and software people are paid well, or so I'm told, but most of the bulk is on the factory side.)
In terms of compensation its not great, but at least they're honest about it; you do get somewhat generous stock options if you stay/last there for over a year, really good health care plans, and depending on the department all the hours you could possibly want or handle. I knew going in my schedule would be 60+ hours, I just didn't see it happening within a swing-shift model so had to decline the offer.
Job security, however, is not exactly a given either. Mass layoffs have been a regular occurrence, one occured right after my first interview process and many have sought to unionize so its a contentious affair even to this day, as Germany ended up getting a Union due to strict EU/DE Auto Union pressure.
> The thought that they might pay even less in Texas is depressing.
Why? Cost of living differs quite a bit in the US. While in Texas in February for my SpaceX interview I knew I was going to have to go down in salary in relation to my current role, but I was assured by several locals that my salary estimates could net a 2-3 bedroom in town with no problem, whereas I have roommates back home.
Besides, where else would I want to be than at the Factory where feeling bad about salary figures feels entirely moot and misses the entire point of why you go to these places?
> I get the feeling this was already planned. Freemont doesn't have much spare land to increase manufacturing capacity.
It was, in February Elon was already teasing about where the new Giga factory was to be located, with Texas being mentioned. Fremont factory has been over capacity even before 3's assembly line change(s) and optimization. I don't if you can find it anymore but there were pictures of Employee parking being the most chaotic thing ever, cars taking every square inch.
The supply chain guys were all pretty sore about those days, but Tesla started bussing people in from the Woodland Park building and many people just commuted that way.
As 3's numbers started to get rolling things got more and more creative, and they ended up getting more parking/staging space near the area. That much was documented [1], and people even commissioned drone pilots to do regular fly-overs over the Factory as more and more progress was being made. I haven't looked, but I wonder if people are that excited about Y.
1: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/found-a-lot-of-model...
It's right. You don't go to Tesla to make tons of money or have a good work-Life balance, you're there to contribute to a passion project with like minded individuals with certain known sunk opportunity-costs: this includes salary. (The engineering and software people are paid well, or so I'm told, but most of the bulk is on the factory side.)
In terms of compensation its not great, but at least they're honest about it; you do get somewhat generous stock options if you stay/last there for over a year, really good health care plans, and depending on the department all the hours you could possibly want or handle. I knew going in my schedule would be 60+ hours, I just didn't see it happening within a swing-shift model so had to decline the offer.
Job security, however, is not exactly a given either. Mass layoffs have been a regular occurrence, one occured right after my first interview process and many have sought to unionize so its a contentious affair even to this day, as Germany ended up getting a Union due to strict EU/DE Auto Union pressure.
> The thought that they might pay even less in Texas is depressing.
Why? Cost of living differs quite a bit in the US. While in Texas in February for my SpaceX interview I knew I was going to have to go down in salary in relation to my current role, but I was assured by several locals that my salary estimates could net a 2-3 bedroom in town with no problem, whereas I have roommates back home.
Besides, where else would I want to be than at the Factory where feeling bad about salary figures feels entirely moot and misses the entire point of why you go to these places?
> I get the feeling this was already planned. Freemont doesn't have much spare land to increase manufacturing capacity.
It was, in February Elon was already teasing about where the new Giga factory was to be located, with Texas being mentioned. Fremont factory has been over capacity even before 3's assembly line change(s) and optimization. I don't if you can find it anymore but there were pictures of Employee parking being the most chaotic thing ever, cars taking every square inch.
The supply chain guys were all pretty sore about those days, but Tesla started bussing people in from the Woodland Park building and many people just commuted that way.
As 3's numbers started to get rolling things got more and more creative, and they ended up getting more parking/staging space near the area. That much was documented [1], and people even commissioned drone pilots to do regular fly-overs over the Factory as more and more progress was being made. I haven't looked, but I wonder if people are that excited about Y.
1: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/found-a-lot-of-model...
Hours after Electrek's story ran, three news organizations—TechCrunch, CNBC, and the Associated Press—all published stories stating that Tesla was still considering Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Tulsa is a better choice for one reason: Being able to say "Tesla Tulsa." Or "The Tulsa Teslas." Or "I wanna test a Tulsa Tesla."
Maybe instead of a tax break, the city could offer to change its name to Tesla. Cities have changed names for sillier reasons.
Tulsa is a better choice for one reason: Being able to say "Tesla Tulsa." Or "The Tulsa Teslas." Or "I wanna test a Tulsa Tesla."
Maybe instead of a tax break, the city could offer to change its name to Tesla. Cities have changed names for sillier reasons.
Or maybe being able to actually buy a Tesla, as opposed to Texas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes#T...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes#T...
Maybe they should consider Tuscaloosa for the same reason.
Building a factory in Texas worked for Toyota https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Motor_Manufacturing_Tex...
Absolutely. There aren't a lot of details in the article, so I'm wondering where exactly near Austin they're thinking of building the factory. San Antonio's only an hour to an hour and a half south of Austin and is where this Toyota plant is located. There's a lot of really inexpensive land within a quick drive of the city and an airport with enough direct flights to get around.
So East of town (Austinite here) there's a lot of wide-open space. My money is on something East of 130 toll road near the Circuit of the Americas. I could see a lot of incentives being thrown that way from the Red McCombs family (major funder of COTA, highly influential in TX politics) to build alongside or nearby.
Random people on the internet are saying "RCR Taylor Logistics Park outside of Hutto, TX"
Not entirely coincidentally, Telsa's current factory in California is a former Toyota plant.
They also briefly partnered with Toyota on a Rav4:
https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-notifies-sec-agreement-toyo...
https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-notifies-sec-agreement-toyo...
It's a former GM plant that later hosted the joint GM/Toyota venture NUMMI:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI
Elon aims to be producing cars from the new factory by end of year. Is it possible that when he says factory they mean the tent structures they are using and continuing to build in Fremont? If so, then maybe his timeline isn't terribly far from reality. I agree that EOY might be ambitious, but by summer 2021 might not be. It all depends on the structure they build to meet that goal.
Will they be able to sell the cars from that factory directly to end users without dealerships in Texas?
What amazes me is the sales numbers Tesla is able to post in the US considering how many states still ban direct sales and others who place restrictions on it.
Got to figure there is a deal afoot with Texas to get the factory. Regardless, that they want to produce the Y there could herald a depreciation of the Fremont operation in short order.
Got to figure there is a deal afoot with Texas to get the factory. Regardless, that they want to produce the Y there could herald a depreciation of the Fremont operation in short order.
That is something interesting to think about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes#T...
basically says:
"Texas residents can still easily buy a car from Tesla, but the purchase is handled as an out-of-state transaction and must be completed before the vehicle ships to Texas."
I wonder what kind of rigamarole tesla will have to play to get a tesla-manufactured truck in texas to a nearby texas resident who has purchased it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes#T...
basically says:
"Texas residents can still easily buy a car from Tesla, but the purchase is handled as an out-of-state transaction and must be completed before the vehicle ships to Texas."
I wonder what kind of rigamarole tesla will have to play to get a tesla-manufactured truck in texas to a nearby texas resident who has purchased it.
Would it be any different than how it is currently? I think it really could just reduce transportation cost I suppose?
Not really? They still have to ship them out of Texas to another state that will allow them to sell directly.
Then customers will have to drive back to Texas.
That seems like the kind of thing Texas might change if Tesla does actually move production there in a major way.
Not likely. Crony capitalism that helps the major car dealership owners but limits economic progress For all. Collectively, these owners will likely donate far more to political campaigns to keep the rules in place than Musk can.
From my experience Texas is all about Texas and there are few states they love to shit on more than California.
Are you telling me that if they bring a plant into Texas and start churning out cars with 'Made In Texas' on every one of them, that there isn't going to be a mutiny on whatever bullshit economic contraption was used to rationalize not directly selling products Made In California?
You might be right, who knows, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Are you telling me that if they bring a plant into Texas and start churning out cars with 'Made In Texas' on every one of them, that there isn't going to be a mutiny on whatever bullshit economic contraption was used to rationalize not directly selling products Made In California?
You might be right, who knows, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Reminds me of the fact that Jack Daniels is produced in a dry county.
Is that how it works now? I see tons of Teslas here in Texas and I cant imagine that is the process for everyone that owns one.
At least the FSD cars can drive themselves out of state, await paperwork, then drive themselves to customers.
IF the recession economists are predicting ends up happening it has to make a significant dent in Tesla's sales right? Wonder how all of this will pan out then. I guess building the factory is still needed, recession or not. So they keep at it.
Eh, I think low volume Y production by the end of the year is possible, but it's unlikely.
On one hand, they don't need to do as much as they did in Giga Shangahi because they already have the Model Y specific bits in Fremont, which they can ship to the new factory.
They just need to replicate all the Model 3 stuff the Model Y uses from Giga Shanghai and install the Model Y specific stuff they ship in from Fremont, which should be faster than Giga Shanghai.
On the other hand, they only have 6 months left to do this and we're in the middle of a pandemic.
What people neglect to consider is that Tesla now owns Perbix and Grohmann, which is very advantageous when building new factories.
On one hand, they don't need to do as much as they did in Giga Shangahi because they already have the Model Y specific bits in Fremont, which they can ship to the new factory.
They just need to replicate all the Model 3 stuff the Model Y uses from Giga Shanghai and install the Model Y specific stuff they ship in from Fremont, which should be faster than Giga Shanghai.
On the other hand, they only have 6 months left to do this and we're in the middle of a pandemic.
What people neglect to consider is that Tesla now owns Perbix and Grohmann, which is very advantageous when building new factories.
Texas is probably the best place to build trucks for PR value. "Texas edition" is something they even put on trucks made in Mexico. Texas is seen as strong and independent, values respected by much of the customer base. To be less politically correct, "Made in California" will definitely hurt sales for some of the redneck demographic.
Its great economy doesn't hurt either. Unlike cars, there's not a strong value in having these trucks on the coast near export terminals. Non-commercial trucks are very much a US thing. And even more a Deep South thing.
Its great economy doesn't hurt either. Unlike cars, there's not a strong value in having these trucks on the coast near export terminals. Non-commercial trucks are very much a US thing. And even more a Deep South thing.
I think Texas aligns well with the size and outrageousness of the cybertruck.
Their goal is to begin assembly, much like Fremont's tent. Shanghai is producing many of the parts in-house requiring a much more robust set of tooling, supply chain, and overall clean, enclosed space
I'm picturing the new Cybertruck will sport the same sticker the Tundra's did when they were made in Texas.
Born in Texas built by Texans.
Born in Texas built by Texans.
Aren't the Tundras still made in San Antonio? IIRC they also contain the most parts fabricated in the US of any pickup in class. (Disclosure: Don't work for Toyota nor own stock but I do own a Tundra.)
Looks like I was incorrect, they were planning to shift production to Mexico in 2017 but didn't.
[deleted]
I really hope that he builds his factory and moves out of CA.
People can still buy his cars but at least we in the BA won't have to listen to his temper tantrums.
He's taken the red pill anyway...
People can still buy his cars but at least we in the BA won't have to listen to his temper tantrums.
He's taken the red pill anyway...
I don't think Texas allows mathematical baby names either.
Likely, but not yet decided. The other front-runner is Tulsa.
There was a reddit post two days ago from a user claiming he had found land purchase records showing Tesla had purchased 1000 acres in Hutto Texas a northern suburb of Austin. The parcel was adjacent to a rail depot that had been recently developed.
Every additional factory is good news.
Texas is trendier, but all of Oklahoma would instantly be rabid Tesla fans if Musk chooses Tulsa.
I hope he does.
I hope he does.
I'm astounded that they ever tried to operate a factory in the Bay Area to begin with. Forget about regulations and taxes. The real issue is cost of living. You're going to have to pay all employees 2-3X what you'd have to pay them elsewhere, and it's not like they're keeping any of that. It's all going to rent/mortgage payments.
Tesla was strapped for cash at the time and picked up Fremont, which used to be the joint venture NUMMI facility between GM and Toyota, for almost nothing. It was a necessary concession to bootstrap Tesla. Arguably, they have outgrown the need for such a small facility after Texas and the next battery facility are built.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI
They don't pay Tesla assembly workers much, very comparable to what GM and Ford pay in the Detroit Metro Area. Ford pay 13-30 dollars(source:payscale.com) while Tesla pays 18-30 dollars (source - father in law who works on the line). Most people are older men who never got a college education or younger men following the same path. They all live in multifamily units in the bay area, and thats how they afford it. Even with the sky high cost, these people see the bay area as their home and are not going to pick up and leave, so they is always labor available for manufacturers.
I wouldn't assume that... The employees Tesla hires are somewhat disjoint from the ones that VC-backed startups/FAANG are hiring (with some software overlap, but I'm not sure where they do software). And the employee pool surrounding the Fremont area is somewhat disjoint from the pool surrounding SF/Palo Alto as well.
They bought a $1B factory for $50M when they didn't have much cash.
Building a new factory in Texas was not an option.
Building a new factory in Texas was not an option.
Austin is comparatively better but not a whole lot. The big three cities in Texas are getting extremely expensive with ridiculous traffic to boot.
Austin is still dirt cheap compared to the Bay Area if you're not living in the core area. The housing around where the Gigafactory is going to be is very affordable.
Average rent for a 1 bedroom apartment in Fremont is 70% more expensive than one in Austin right now:
https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/tx/au... https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/fr...
If you drive even a little further out, living costs are far cheaper, too. Austin proper is not that large. In a nearby town less than 15 miles from downtown Austin, I see 2800 sqft. houses renting on Zillow for $200-300/month cheaper than what I paid in Bay Area rents for a 1 bedroom ~600 sqft. apartment almost 10 years ago.
Not that it won't ever get there, but Texas cities have a ways to go to catch up with some of the CA housing prices.
https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/tx/au... https://www.rentcafe.com/average-rent-market-trends/us/ca/fr...
If you drive even a little further out, living costs are far cheaper, too. Austin proper is not that large. In a nearby town less than 15 miles from downtown Austin, I see 2800 sqft. houses renting on Zillow for $200-300/month cheaper than what I paid in Bay Area rents for a 1 bedroom ~600 sqft. apartment almost 10 years ago.
Not that it won't ever get there, but Texas cities have a ways to go to catch up with some of the CA housing prices.
Fully Automated Luxury Traffic Jams
I expect there are a lot of the required engineers available in the area. And that's where the company started.
Musk is a more vocal, libertarian version of Steve Jobs. He pushes forward when others say no. Like him or not, you cannot deny his achievements.
Shoulda started in Texas. Much more compatible culture for his kind of operation.
I'm quite the Musk fanboy, but he's always had this very strange anger issue... It's not even getting in fights that I find troubling. But for the genius that he is, these squabbles just seem...pedestrian? Calling people pedophiles or going five rounds with SEC for no reason at all?
For comparison, I hate Peter Thiel with a passion. But finding some plaintiff and funding the lawsuit that bankrupts the news organisation that wronged you, for something entirely different? That's how you should win stupid fights when your day job is rockets, fire-throwers, and revolutionary sports cars.
If his recent "red pill" comments is a sign of what's to come, he might be stretching his luck. Going full alt-right MAGA is going to cut his customer base in half, at least in the US and Europe.