Ask HN: Working part-time in tech?
118 comments
I’ve been working 4d/week for the last 5 years as a Data Scientist. I first proposed it during salary negotiations with a small startup, who were surprised by it but were willing to give it a go. It worked out really well, and once I had that under my belt, I was able to ask for the same arrangement at subsequent job interviews - I would make a point to raise this up front, and it proved a good way to filter out companies that likely wouldn’t have been a good work/life fit. (I look after three young kids outside of work; wife is a corporate lawyer who has to work 24/7, so my 4d/wk schedule is important in maintaining some semblance of balance for the kids).
Now I’m at a multinational (a publicly listed health data company) and the arrangement continues to work well, even though I now manage a team of 8 data scientists. I’ve had colleagues who’ve dropped from 5 to 3d/wk, the company seems very flexible around this type of arrangement. At the startups I felt that I had to squeeze in 5d of work in 4d at times, whereas here the workload has felt more commensurate with the hours I have available (and my manager often checks in to make sure this is the case).
Overall I love having an extra day to the weekend (I take the kids out to places in London on Fridays when it’s considerably less busy). My colleagues with similar arrangements used this to split their working weeks in half, and that worked well for them.
Happy to answer any questions.
Now I’m at a multinational (a publicly listed health data company) and the arrangement continues to work well, even though I now manage a team of 8 data scientists. I’ve had colleagues who’ve dropped from 5 to 3d/wk, the company seems very flexible around this type of arrangement. At the startups I felt that I had to squeeze in 5d of work in 4d at times, whereas here the workload has felt more commensurate with the hours I have available (and my manager often checks in to make sure this is the case).
Overall I love having an extra day to the weekend (I take the kids out to places in London on Fridays when it’s considerably less busy). My colleagues with similar arrangements used this to split their working weeks in half, and that worked well for them.
Happy to answer any questions.
Hi, great setup. Have a question about data science. My wife is trying to shift into this field from IC Design. Do you have any tips as to what material to focus on? She's been doing the Andrew Ng's coursera machine learning courses. Also would appreciate tips on how to look for your first gig as a data scientist! Thanks and more power!
Cool! Sounds like a good deal.
Having an understanding manager really helps I guess.
I also have three kids so I know the struggle :)
Having an understanding manager really helps I guess.
I also have three kids so I know the struggle :)
Nice to meet other P/T tech dads-of-three, we’re a rare breed! Have sent you an email to say hi. : )
Are you hiring junior/intern data scientists from Canada? I know someone who is almost finished their masters and have worked on real data from telecomm quality of service as part of their thesis, and have had a term of internship.
I don’t think we’ve worked with anyone in Canada in our team, however it’s a huge company With multiple DS teams, and some may be open to this. Feel free to send a CV and I can forward to the appropriate hiring partner.
thanks very much. Where/how can I forward it?
Just added my LinkedIn link to my profile, hope that helps.
Thanks for sharing. I also negotiated a 4-day week (and love it), but it was after I'd been at my current company for 4+ years. It's encouraging to hear that employers are open to hiring people at 4 days off the bat, because I'm never going back. Maybe it's hard to tell at this point, but is your salary pro-rated at 80%?
Yes, my salary has been pro rated 80% at every job where I’ve had this arrangement - that’s always been agreed upfront. One interesting thing I noticed is that several employers were open to interviewing even after I made it clear that I can only do 4d/week, it turned off fewer companies than I thought it might. After my initial experience, I found it better to declare it up front, because there was one case where I only mentioned it at the final interview and the CEO, who literally had his pen out to write down an offer, promptly sheaved it again and said he couldn’t work with that arrangement. All of my part time roles have been in the UK, and I’ve wondered whether it’s a little easier for European employers to accommodate these arrangements (vs in the US).
I suspect it's more accepted in Europe than in the US. Here in Canada, we're somewhere in between. Not quite the same workaholic culture that parts of the US suffer from, but we haven't been as successful as many continental Europeans in fighting for and keeping our labour rights. No 6-week vacations for (most of) us, though at least we have parental leave.
Then again, I understand that the UK is the most American part of Europe, especially of late. So maybe things land in the same ballpark after all.
Then again, I understand that the UK is the most American part of Europe, especially of late. So maybe things land in the same ballpark after all.
As other people have said, you can negotiate for this. I've done it at multiple jobs. Here's an interview with someone who has been doing it for 15 years: https://codewithoutrules.com/2018/01/08/part-time-programmer...
1. It's easier at existing job; you have all this knowledge that's hard to replace (https://codewithoutrules.com/2019/01/25/4-day-workweek-easy-...).
2. At new jobs, apply normally. Then _after_ you get an offer, ask for shorter hours.
3. I wrote a book about the process; it's no longer public linked on my site because pandemic has lowered negotiation leverage a lot and I'm not sure how to address that, but if you're interested: https://codewithoutrules.com/3dayweekend/
1. It's easier at existing job; you have all this knowledge that's hard to replace (https://codewithoutrules.com/2019/01/25/4-day-workweek-easy-...).
2. At new jobs, apply normally. Then _after_ you get an offer, ask for shorter hours.
3. I wrote a book about the process; it's no longer public linked on my site because pandemic has lowered negotiation leverage a lot and I'm not sure how to address that, but if you're interested: https://codewithoutrules.com/3dayweekend/
Having been a engineering manager before, it would put an extremely bad taste in my mouth if someone waited until the offer stage to ask for a part time role.
I can understand why you feel that way. But many companies simply doesn’t want to talk to people who wants to work part-time. (As in ”don’t call us, we’ll call you”.) So even if it might seem pushy to negotiate like that, at least to me it’s understandable.
It also has the potential to waste your time and theirs. I wouldn't call it pushy as much as borderline deceptive.
I've been doing 20 hours per week (Mon-Wed) remote for nearly 3 years and I absolutely love it. I'm at a $bigco and worked there for 10 years before changing to this part time arrangement.
I believe it's harder to do for small companies due to legal/tax reasons (something about less than 32 hours complicates things a lot although I don't know the details why).
The "simple" solution is to be good enough that you have the bargaining leverage to propose it and make it an ultimatum. Other ideas:
* Grind in a project for some years and become indispensable and then propose it.
* Propose it as an experiment for 6 months.
* Create an "excuse" of why you need the extra time such as pursuing an M.S./PhD.
I believe it's harder to do for small companies due to legal/tax reasons (something about less than 32 hours complicates things a lot although I don't know the details why).
The "simple" solution is to be good enough that you have the bargaining leverage to propose it and make it an ultimatum. Other ideas:
* Grind in a project for some years and become indispensable and then propose it.
* Propose it as an experiment for 6 months.
* Create an "excuse" of why you need the extra time such as pursuing an M.S./PhD.
Create an "excuse" of why you need the extra time such as pursuing an M.S./PhD.
Having kids. Serves also as a pressure upon you to actually seek part-time instead of just procrastinating about it.
I believe it's harder to do for small companies due to legal/tax reasons (something about less than 32 hours complicates things a lot although I don't know the details why).
Not a US resident, but FWIW many countries because of redistribution schemes need to categorize people by whether they are a) principally employed or b) self-employed.
Hours worked for a/b are a common denominator for this. It's likely that depending on the regulatory environment smaller companies when given the chance will always opt for the candidate with less HR department overhead.
Having kids. Serves also as a pressure upon you to actually seek part-time instead of just procrastinating about it.
I believe it's harder to do for small companies due to legal/tax reasons (something about less than 32 hours complicates things a lot although I don't know the details why).
Not a US resident, but FWIW many countries because of redistribution schemes need to categorize people by whether they are a) principally employed or b) self-employed.
Hours worked for a/b are a common denominator for this. It's likely that depending on the regulatory environment smaller companies when given the chance will always opt for the candidate with less HR department overhead.
My understanding is it's complicated because of benefits. 32 hours is considered full time by my employer's insurance company, any less is part time. You can pro-rate salary, but benefits are mostly either there or not.
Yeah maybe it is easier to achieve in large companies...? They will anyway need to employ lots of people since they are large. Whereas growing the headcount might not always be that easy for small companies.
So far I have mostly worked for small companies. So I might want to consider working for larger ones.
Also, thank you for suggesting multiple strategies. All angles need to be considered (^_^)
So far I have mostly worked for small companies. So I might want to consider working for larger ones.
Also, thank you for suggesting multiple strategies. All angles need to be considered (^_^)
I just asked my manager for a 24 hr work week (3 days on, 4 days off), and they said sure, and the company prorated my salary down.
The company I was working for came out of a university research lab, and so had a culture of PhD students working part time for it, so this was not outside the norm there.
The downside was not getting equity, nor benefits, but I was on my parent's insurance and wasn't too keen on their equity anyway, so this was fine for me.
The company I was working for came out of a university research lab, and so had a culture of PhD students working part time for it, so this was not outside the norm there.
The downside was not getting equity, nor benefits, but I was on my parent's insurance and wasn't too keen on their equity anyway, so this was fine for me.
The other path here might be working somewhere with a culture of fixed goals rather than a time expectation.
For example, many remote companies that operate asynchronously won't expect you to be in the office 40hrs a week, but will expect a certain level of work to be done each week. If you can get that done in 24 rather than 40, then it works out fine for you.
For example, many remote companies that operate asynchronously won't expect you to be in the office 40hrs a week, but will expect a certain level of work to be done each week. If you can get that done in 24 rather than 40, then it works out fine for you.
This is why I love remote work. Studies [0] show that most office workers work only 2.5 hours a day on average, with the rest being socializing, procrastinating, surfing the web, and so on. If I can get my work done in 4 hours a day, I'll have done more work and have more free time, since managers in an office expect you to be there for 8 hours a day, but not so for remote.
[0] https://www.inc.com/melanie-curtin/in-an-8-hour-day-the-aver...
[0] https://www.inc.com/melanie-curtin/in-an-8-hour-day-the-aver...
I don't believe 2.5 hours is representative, so please cite these studies. Personally,senior engineers (individual contributors) that I have worked with spend 4-6 hours per day making significant contributions on their own and the other 4-2 hours working/coordinating with their team and sister teams. The only plausible scenario where one can do an acceptable job in 2.5 hours per day is where a senior person is doing the job of an entry level person. For people managers, having effective 2-4 hour days on an ongoing basis are very unlikely in my experience. I am open to be surprised with examples that prove otherwise.
Here is the study I read it from, there might be others. In my experience, yes, it doesn't work for managers, only those who are individual contributors doing programming full time. I doubt however that even the senior managers are coding the entire time for 4 to 6 hours, it is difficult to do so every single day. More likely, you perceive them to be doing that much work since they are present during that time, which is the same reaction I get as well; colleagues and bosses speak of how much work I get done compared to others, yet they don't realize I work a lot fewer hours. It's all about efficiency.
https://www.inc.com/melanie-curtin/in-an-8-hour-day-the-aver...
https://www.inc.com/melanie-curtin/in-an-8-hour-day-the-aver...
A specific note about this quote:
> However, this eight-hour movement didn't become standard until nearly a century later, when, in 1914, Ford Motor Company astonished everyone by cutting daily hours down to eight while simultaneously doubling wages. The result? Increased productivity.
What happened was the shift from craftsmen at a workbench to a deskilled assembly line had significant turnover. The cost of training and retention was high enough that Ford instituted the lower working hours and higher wages.
From one of Ford's biographers: “So great was labor’s distaste for the new machine system that toward the close of 1913 every time the company wanted to add 100 men to its factory personnel, it was necessary to hire 963.”
You see this in shipyards during the war war 2 years where once the initial pool of workers is burned out, you need to raise wages to bring in more workers.
> However, this eight-hour movement didn't become standard until nearly a century later, when, in 1914, Ford Motor Company astonished everyone by cutting daily hours down to eight while simultaneously doubling wages. The result? Increased productivity.
What happened was the shift from craftsmen at a workbench to a deskilled assembly line had significant turnover. The cost of training and retention was high enough that Ford instituted the lower working hours and higher wages.
From one of Ford's biographers: “So great was labor’s distaste for the new machine system that toward the close of 1913 every time the company wanted to add 100 men to its factory personnel, it was necessary to hire 963.”
You see this in shipyards during the war war 2 years where once the initial pool of workers is burned out, you need to raise wages to bring in more workers.
The classic study on this topic that everyone loves to cite is "“Constant, Constant, Multi-tasking Craziness”: Managing Multiple Working Spheres", from 2004, where anthropologists observed 14 workers building software, specifically:
* Four software engineers
* Six analysts (more like a Project Manager)
* Four managers (like an Engineering Lead)
What they found is in a ~nine hour day, the people did between ninety minutes to 4 and a half hours a day doing their 'focused work'. You can imagine that project managers are pushing 90 minutes, and the engineers are closer to 5 hours.
All of this is on top of two hours a day chatting with people across cubical walls.
In reading a bunch of these studies, you find small populations, and a focus on law firms and consulting because their work is significantly more legible.
What they found is in a ~nine hour day, the people did between ninety minutes to 4 and a half hours a day doing their 'focused work'. You can imagine that project managers are pushing 90 minutes, and the engineers are closer to 5 hours.
All of this is on top of two hours a day chatting with people across cubical walls.
In reading a bunch of these studies, you find small populations, and a focus on law firms and consulting because their work is significantly more legible.
Non focused work is still work.
Do you work remotely now? If so may I ask how many hours of work you put down on average? (If you rather not share that I totally understand.)
Yeah with coronavirus and all, but I did before as well. Generally it's about 2 hours a day, but I work intensely in those hours. I never go over 4, as a general principle. Again, this isn't really comparable to office hours, as most people don't work non-stop (with short breaks of course) or as intensely, so I do finish much faster than my other in person and colleagues.
Interesting!
I’m curious if this is a silent agreement with your boss or if it’s explicit?
I’m curious if this is a silent agreement with your boss or if it’s explicit?
As long as the work gets done, at my company, no one cares how many hours you work.
Every software job I've ever had, has an infinite amount of work that could be done. So somehow I have to justify the amount of work I've gotten done, which is usually less than the amount they 'want' done (which is all of it), and the justification is usually "couldn't spend any more hours on it, literally".
Cool! How does one find such a great employer? ;-)
You can search remote job boards like RemoteOK.
To my ears, 2.5 hours sounds a bit low. But yes, actually productive hours can sometimes be way lower than the wall time.
Interesting. Seems like it also could backfire…? If what is expected to get done needs 40 h.
It also goes against the essence of many companies that want to grow and to do so make everyone more productive. So you want to cash in that productivity but so do they!
Cool! Had you been working there for long before suggesting that?
I do this currently. I was working at Google and left. I wanted more time off since I have enough money to not grind, but still need to pay rent. Basically personal project time.
I ended up at a small company that had additional hours but not enough for a full time employee. I'm now part time across three DARPA contracts. It was really just luck, a friend reached out and asked if I was interested.
Everywhere else I was talking to was just pushing unlimited PTO policies. I wanted explicit acknowledgement about how much vacation I'd take and that was hard to get.
I know people at Google went to part time. You probably just need to ask. My route was definitely finding a place that needed a worker but didn't have enough work for full time.
I ended up at a small company that had additional hours but not enough for a full time employee. I'm now part time across three DARPA contracts. It was really just luck, a friend reached out and asked if I was interested.
Everywhere else I was talking to was just pushing unlimited PTO policies. I wanted explicit acknowledgement about how much vacation I'd take and that was hard to get.
I know people at Google went to part time. You probably just need to ask. My route was definitely finding a place that needed a worker but didn't have enough work for full time.
Yeah I’ve been thinking about joining a small company like that. But they can be quite hard to find since they generally don’t put up any job postings. Congratulations to finding one! :)
I'm someone who values tinkering time greatly and low-hour work weeks (at least WRT "work" work) are a priority.
I've gotten to this stage from two different directions:
1. Developing a relationship with a 'principal' consultant who handles client relationships themselves (shielding me from weird hours and stress) but outsources the tech to me (+ other technical freelancers). When this principal consultant has no clients, they still have hours available for their own in-house, entrepreneurial products.
2. Bootstrapping a passive-income web business. I coded a Ruby on Rails application to sell law notes following my law degree. By following the advice here, I figured out how to market it with SEO and AdWords. Much to my amazement, it ended up providing for all my financial needs for over 7 years, sometimes with as little as 4 hours work a month. (Obviously there was a huge upfront investment in getting to that stage.) I've got a YouTube video where I talk more about how I came up with the MVP and what the first few months were like, in case this is a path you're considering too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKXlZz-wbmg
I've gotten to this stage from two different directions:
1. Developing a relationship with a 'principal' consultant who handles client relationships themselves (shielding me from weird hours and stress) but outsources the tech to me (+ other technical freelancers). When this principal consultant has no clients, they still have hours available for their own in-house, entrepreneurial products.
2. Bootstrapping a passive-income web business. I coded a Ruby on Rails application to sell law notes following my law degree. By following the advice here, I figured out how to market it with SEO and AdWords. Much to my amazement, it ended up providing for all my financial needs for over 7 years, sometimes with as little as 4 hours work a month. (Obviously there was a huge upfront investment in getting to that stage.) I've got a YouTube video where I talk more about how I came up with the MVP and what the first few months were like, in case this is a path you're considering too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKXlZz-wbmg
In some countries you actually have a right to switch from full-time to part-time work.
Your employer can block you but only if they have a really solid reason, and "we have to hire another person to make up the difference" won't fly. If you want to go the other way (back to full-time) your employer can say no.
So -- if this is your long-term plan and you want to be employed you might consider going to such a country, and doing a year or so of full-time first.
Anecdotally, I was seriously considering switching to half time pre-plague so I could do a PhD. Would have been trivial to get it approved, but I have a lot of seniority; you might have to fight for it if you're new. But at least in Germany, it's your right as a worker, not a privilege from your employer. I would expect it's like that in much of the EU.
Your employer can block you but only if they have a really solid reason, and "we have to hire another person to make up the difference" won't fly. If you want to go the other way (back to full-time) your employer can say no.
So -- if this is your long-term plan and you want to be employed you might consider going to such a country, and doing a year or so of full-time first.
Anecdotally, I was seriously considering switching to half time pre-plague so I could do a PhD. Would have been trivial to get it approved, but I have a lot of seniority; you might have to fight for it if you're new. But at least in Germany, it's your right as a worker, not a privilege from your employer. I would expect it's like that in much of the EU.
I tried this and struggled. After taking a break from full-time developer work, I reached out to multiple tech companies via personal referrals. Everyone said that they’d love me full time, but couldn’t have a part-time hire. I got a lot of soft brush-offs to “reach out when you have more availability.”
Out of the blue, however, a former employer reached out to me and offered to hire me for as many (or as few) hours as I could handle, which has worked out to 10-25 a week. It’s been a really nice arrangement that I’ve enjoyed. The catch is that this company is in a completely different industry, with a completely different pay scale than tech. So I’m happy with my job, but wouldn’t be able to support myself on it with part-time hours if I was the only household earner.
Out of the blue, however, a former employer reached out to me and offered to hire me for as many (or as few) hours as I could handle, which has worked out to 10-25 a week. It’s been a really nice arrangement that I’ve enjoyed. The catch is that this company is in a completely different industry, with a completely different pay scale than tech. So I’m happy with my job, but wouldn’t be able to support myself on it with part-time hours if I was the only household earner.
I hear ya. Many recruiters/bosses simply don’t want to hear anything about part-time work at all. I think that’s a mistake on their end – it could be a major benefit that would make that employer stand out from the crowd. But many companies sadly doesn’t think about it that way.
PS. As someone else mentioned here, and in case you find yourself on the market again: You might want to try to discuss part-time only after receiving a written offer. Then you know for sure that they want to hire you. And then you have some leverage.
PS. As someone else mentioned here, and in case you find yourself on the market again: You might want to try to discuss part-time only after receiving a written offer. Then you know for sure that they want to hire you. And then you have some leverage.
In my experience, you have to negotiate part-time after the verbal "great job, we want to hire you" but before the formal written offer.
Very interesting - I will definitely try that next time.
I agree! Flexible work would be a huge differentiator and I was ready to bend over backwards for it. I’ve heard that many companies won’t consider it because developers are just so darn expensive - it’s not worth it to pay a huge ransom and not get someone’s full attention.
I agree! Flexible work would be a huge differentiator and I was ready to bend over backwards for it. I’ve heard that many companies won’t consider it because developers are just so darn expensive - it’s not worth it to pay a huge ransom and not get someone’s full attention.
I had a similar experience; seeking a job with reduced hours was almost impossible. But working as a contractor for an ex-employer worked out really well.
I'd typically work Monday & Tuesday, take Wednesday off for myself, then do parenting for Thursday & Friday. It was a great way to spend a few months.
I'd typically work Monday & Tuesday, take Wednesday off for myself, then do parenting for Thursday & Friday. It was a great way to spend a few months.
Yeah if I decide to try my hand at contracting then reaching out to past employers could be a good idea. After all they know my track record, and I know lots of people there, and I know who to speak with to get things done etc. And they won’t have to explain all the domain-specific knowledge to me.
I did this. I wrote tech tutorials. I got paid by hours so it was up to me how long I want to work per week. It's by pure luck I got this job. My friend who worked in a company asked me to help with tech writing.
Sometimes you have to ask: https://twitter.com/shl/status/1300848723182776322
Sometimes you have to ask: https://twitter.com/shl/status/1300848723182776322
My wife arranged this and ended up getting just as much work thrown at her, working just as much, but getting paid less and next to zero promotability. She obviously went back to full time after about six months.
Ouch. There are definitely pitfalls along this path. And if the manager doesn’t understand what the deal implies I’m sure it can be very hard and stressful. Too bad it didn’t work out for your wife.
That’s why it’s good to have two things. One is to be able to easily pick up a job somewhere else for same pay and benefits if required. Second is to say no, ideally in a respectful way. Pretend you have another boss vying for those other 8 hours (this boss is you of course!)
I just (4th week tomorrow) started a similar thing with my company.
I work 16 hours / week and am on a support rotation (albeit 3rd tier). I only cover unplanned work on weekends. I took a 60% pay cut but keep all my pre-existing benefits.
So far it has been wonderful for my mental health, although with social distancing and the pandy it certainly has been difficult to keep busy some days. I am passively looking for supplemental work as I don't make enough to deposit into my savings. I imagine as winter rolls in this will be a necessity to stay busy/sane.
In the meantime, though, I have picked up lots of cooking, baking, and work on some personal coding projects. I have also been focusing much more of my time on art, which is really awesome! It's too early to tell but this might end up a more permanent situation for me (if not at the current company then maybe at the next one?).
I think this has also made me more productive at my job. I have 16 hours this week - what NEEDS to get done? What is a nice to have? Constraints are wonderful for productivity.
I work 16 hours / week and am on a support rotation (albeit 3rd tier). I only cover unplanned work on weekends. I took a 60% pay cut but keep all my pre-existing benefits.
So far it has been wonderful for my mental health, although with social distancing and the pandy it certainly has been difficult to keep busy some days. I am passively looking for supplemental work as I don't make enough to deposit into my savings. I imagine as winter rolls in this will be a necessity to stay busy/sane.
In the meantime, though, I have picked up lots of cooking, baking, and work on some personal coding projects. I have also been focusing much more of my time on art, which is really awesome! It's too early to tell but this might end up a more permanent situation for me (if not at the current company then maybe at the next one?).
I think this has also made me more productive at my job. I have 16 hours this week - what NEEDS to get done? What is a nice to have? Constraints are wonderful for productivity.
Sounds great and kudos to you for trying an alternative to the rat race!
Was it hard to negotiate or was your employer positive to the idea from the beginning?
Was it hard to negotiate or was your employer positive to the idea from the beginning?
Yes. I just explained that wish when I was hired. I was not the most important engineer on the team, doing frontend (not in JS/HTML sense, just in UI sense) work for a project where most of the work was in the backend, and it was an easy sell.
Ended up divorcing my wife after spending 4 days a week at home with her, so wouldn't recommend it, but no professional problems.
Ended up divorcing my wife after spending 4 days a week at home with her, so wouldn't recommend it, but no professional problems.
You can probably do consultant work. Come up with solutions, don't necessarily implement everything or anything yourself. If you try doing everything yourself on a per-hour basis, you put yourself at a massive disadvantage.
Interesting. Do you mean solution architect kind of assignments?
Yes, that is certainly one option.
I don't work part-time at the moment but have before and have part-time positions currently hiring for in my team and I manage part time employees and have before.
It's not unheard of just uncommon.
The biggest drawback is that you feel less belonging and you aren't always there for all the decisions. At certain times I am OK with that.
It's not unheard of just uncommon.
The biggest drawback is that you feel less belonging and you aren't always there for all the decisions. At certain times I am OK with that.
I work at $BIGCO, 3 days on, 4 days off, 2 of which I usually spend learning tech and non-tech related things and/or working on side-projects I'm interested in.
I think there are multiple reasons why I was allowed to do this:
A) I'm working on a stable, long-term project. So there were no objections by colleagues that this might impede short-term progress (and, as a side note, I think I'm far more productive now than previously).
B) My manager is a reasonable and kind person. I know other managers at $BIGCO who, I'm sure, would have objected.
I think there are multiple reasons why I was allowed to do this:
A) I'm working on a stable, long-term project. So there were no objections by colleagues that this might impede short-term progress (and, as a side note, I think I'm far more productive now than previously).
B) My manager is a reasonable and kind person. I know other managers at $BIGCO who, I'm sure, would have objected.
Sounds like a good deal.
Are you a developer or some other role?
Are you a developer or some other role?
Yes, I'm a dev.
I work 24h/w (TWT) for my employer. I did this by... saying that's what I could do when they offered me the job. (There are some specific personal circumstances that prevent me from taking full time work.) And sure, it does limit you; a lot of places demur, but not everyone. For sure my small company are happy to have me. Of course they are: they get a massive bargain. I am prorata so they get a developer for janitor wages and still everything gets done. Who wouldn't be happy with that deal?
Contracting is your best bet.
I set my own hours + fully remote. Typically about 2-3h of team meetings (sprint kickoff, retro, grooming etc) a week. Rest of time is off on your own dev work.
Bill by the hour. As long as you work predictable amount of hours, you can do 20h or 60h week.
I set my own hours + fully remote. Typically about 2-3h of team meetings (sprint kickoff, retro, grooming etc) a week. Rest of time is off on your own dev work.
Bill by the hour. As long as you work predictable amount of hours, you can do 20h or 60h week.
How much time do you spend with nonbillable work like lining up clients? I've always been interested in contracting but not really felt like I knew how to get started.
I transitioned from FTE to ~25 hours per week as a contractor and it definitely works for my situation.
If you go this route, make sure when you calculate your rate that you build-in the benefits such as paid leave, health insurance, lunch break, and company holidays. The number might seem high but you can justify it.
We arranged a deal where I work between 0 and 40 hours per week, with the option to work more hours with approval.
Also you might enjoy The Four Hour Work Week by Tim Ferriss
If you go this route, make sure when you calculate your rate that you build-in the benefits such as paid leave, health insurance, lunch break, and company holidays. The number might seem high but you can justify it.
We arranged a deal where I work between 0 and 40 hours per week, with the option to work more hours with approval.
Also you might enjoy The Four Hour Work Week by Tim Ferriss
Cool!
I’ve heard about Ferriss book but haven’t read it. Is it good?
I’ve heard about Ferriss book but haven’t read it. Is it good?
I work 4 days on, 3 off. Not quite what you’re looking for, but along the same lines.
Has been no issue at all. Never has been.
What I do see with my 3on/4off colleagues (usually students) is that they lack any sort of continuity in their work. Not enough time to tackle larger problems in one go and always missing out on how the smaller pieces fit together. On top of that a lot off friction when handing things off, etc.
Surely it can be done better, etc etc.
Has been no issue at all. Never has been.
What I do see with my 3on/4off colleagues (usually students) is that they lack any sort of continuity in their work. Not enough time to tackle larger problems in one go and always missing out on how the smaller pieces fit together. On top of that a lot off friction when handing things off, etc.
Surely it can be done better, etc etc.
Have never tried it. But have been on the other side of the situation looking to hire developers half time.
Look for small companies. Startups, small businesses, anyone who needs a developer but can't afford a full time employee. This can especially work out if you are a senior developer whose 20 hours are often more valuable than 40 hours of a junior dev.
Look for small companies. Startups, small businesses, anyone who needs a developer but can't afford a full time employee. This can especially work out if you are a senior developer whose 20 hours are often more valuable than 40 hours of a junior dev.
Been doing this for 6 months (50% time), and loving it. In my case, a former employer reached out and asked if I’d like to work part time. I’ve got a friend who’s working 2 full time gigs; 15hours each. He’s more productive than his peers in each company, and only puts in a fraction of the hours. If you deliver high value, you can negotiate.
Yeah it would probably help if I get better at identifying work that is actually high-value. It’s kinda easy to fall in to the trap of doing busywork that demands lots of hours but doesn’t really produce so much value.
I'm at 22.5 hrs/week fully remote. I had been a full time employee for 6 years and wanted to resign. They wanted to keep me. I asked for this and they said ok.
I’ve been working as a software engineer at a non-profit for a little over four years. I started at 40 hours per week, went down to 32 after a couple of years, and now am at 24 because they were looking to cut costs and I was happy to oblige.
When I brought it up to my manager, I told her very specifically _why_ I wanted to reduce my hours - I wanted to spend more time on other projects (specifically musical projects) - and she was totally open to it. If you really feel like you need more time for other pursuits, and you are lucky enough to work at a good company where your manager has your best interests at heart, it shouldn’t be an issue.
Plus, hiring and training new employees is an expensive pain in the ass.
When I brought it up to my manager, I told her very specifically _why_ I wanted to reduce my hours - I wanted to spend more time on other projects (specifically musical projects) - and she was totally open to it. If you really feel like you need more time for other pursuits, and you are lucky enough to work at a good company where your manager has your best interests at heart, it shouldn’t be an issue.
Plus, hiring and training new employees is an expensive pain in the ass.
It's possible. If not an option for the company you're working for at the moment look for other companies with openings for 80% or 60% of effort.
I am currently working 80% (4 days per week) after almost 1 year at 60% (3 days per week).
Good luck!
Good luck!
Thank you!
I work remote at a startup. I don't think that's a repeatable strategy but it does allow me to work very little hours throughout the week and spend most of my time relaxing with my family. It also helps being decent enough at my job that I can finish a week's worth of work in a couple hours at home. I imagine as the company becomes more mature I'll be working even less than I am now.
Wow. Sounds pretty great. I’ve generally thought of startups as quite stressful work places – might not be the case for all of them though?
It depends on the work you are doing and how good your team is at managing what needs to get done. We know who our clients are, what features they want, and how to think about adding those features in. That's pretty much all you need to focus on when it comes to software. We make sure to bring in and keep those who understand those core facets of the business and understand what should be a priority and what shouldn't.
In startups that become stressful, the main problem I have seen is an ungrounded management team that doesn't quite know what they want the business to look like in 5 years, so every other week - surprise! We've got a new client and they want X, Y and Z by tomorrow, so get working! - that never results in low-stress work.
In startups that become stressful, the main problem I have seen is an ungrounded management team that doesn't quite know what they want the business to look like in 5 years, so every other week - surprise! We've got a new client and they want X, Y and Z by tomorrow, so get working! - that never results in low-stress work.
I think that if you only do a few hours of actual time working each week, you are deceiving not only your employer but yourself about what is productive and whether you're a good employee.
There are no good metrics for programmer productivity, but spending < 20 hours a week actually switched-on as a full-time employee is obviously a problem, to me.
There are no good metrics for programmer productivity, but spending < 20 hours a week actually switched-on as a full-time employee is obviously a problem, to me.
I honestly doubt any one who says that they are productive for 40 full hours a week, or even 6 hours per day. There's a lot of downtime that employees usually do not notice from a first person perspective. Even still, the goal of IT is first and foremost to empower business goals through technology, one of the main aspects of that is increasing workflow efficiency and throughput of the rest of the business processes - in other words, make good software so the rest of the business doesn't have to work so hard.
I have definitely met workers who I've given a task and they produce sub-average work and, when confronted, give me the spiel about they worked "so many hours on this" and how could I "invalidate the time they spent".
At the end of the day, as long as you are doing the job at the pace I need you to be doing the job, then I don't care if you did it in 1 hour or 8 hours. If you want more work, ask, and if you're spending too much time on a task, then there is a communication problem as a team member should have caught that you were on the wrong track.
In my experience, focusing on hours worked has never produced quality work.
I have definitely met workers who I've given a task and they produce sub-average work and, when confronted, give me the spiel about they worked "so many hours on this" and how could I "invalidate the time they spent".
At the end of the day, as long as you are doing the job at the pace I need you to be doing the job, then I don't care if you did it in 1 hour or 8 hours. If you want more work, ask, and if you're spending too much time on a task, then there is a communication problem as a team member should have caught that you were on the wrong track.
In my experience, focusing on hours worked has never produced quality work.
I know I don't hit a full 40 hours of "productive work" each week.
That's different from intentionally deciding to aim for less than that, though.
That's different from intentionally deciding to aim for less than that, though.
The goal of work is to intentionally decrease the amount of work you have to do to achieve the same tasks. Why pay you when I can find a person who will do the same work you do in less time?
I think what you're arguing is that employees should always have some work to do, which simply won't be the case in every industry
I think what you're arguing is that employees should always have some work to do, which simply won't be the case in every industry
What I'm saying is that if I manage to build enough tooling to streamline my work so it takes me twenty hours of "at work" time instead of the forty it used to, then under the standard full-time employee arrangements, I have an obligation to use the remaining time for other tasks, like finding a new corner of the company's workflows I can help optimize and streamline.
I've never seen a system that was even close to perfectly designed or optimized. You can always find more to improve.
Yes, there are diminishing returns for any specific corner, and there comes a point when the increase in risk from doing further deployments is not worth the shrinking business gains for optimizing a given corner, but I strongly believe there are always more improvements that can be made, both at a small, focused level and stu the big picture level of what systems should even exist in a given company.
I've never seen a system that was even close to perfectly designed or optimized. You can always find more to improve.
Yes, there are diminishing returns for any specific corner, and there comes a point when the increase in risk from doing further deployments is not worth the shrinking business gains for optimizing a given corner, but I strongly believe there are always more improvements that can be made, both at a small, focused level and stu the big picture level of what systems should even exist in a given company.
> I have an obligation
You don't though. If you become 40% more productive, you should be paid more. Quietly taking that time as part time hours, instead of staying full time and getting a promotion+raise, is fine.
You don't though. If you become 40% more productive, you should be paid more. Quietly taking that time as part time hours, instead of staying full time and getting a promotion+raise, is fine.
You are welcome to your opinion, and to your own moral code.
Mine means I do have that obligation.
I suspect many share this aspect of my code, which boils down to "keep your commitments, both explicit and implicit."
Nobody hires a full-time employee expecting that they'll start slacking off once they get the basics of their job going smoothly, and I know that going in (as do most people).
Thus, if I plan to do that, I have to warn them up front that our expectations are likely not aligned.
If I don't want to have that obligation, then I can negotiate up front, or take on the risk of being a consultant or startup founder.
Thought experiment: ask yourself whether you'd hire someone advertising my work ethic or yours, if all other aspects are equal between the candidates.
Then ask yourself why you answered as you did, and which response the market will reward better in hiring.
My reason for this stance is my personal code of ethics, not pragmatism, but I think the pragmatic consideration may clarify my point.
Mine means I do have that obligation.
I suspect many share this aspect of my code, which boils down to "keep your commitments, both explicit and implicit."
Nobody hires a full-time employee expecting that they'll start slacking off once they get the basics of their job going smoothly, and I know that going in (as do most people).
Thus, if I plan to do that, I have to warn them up front that our expectations are likely not aligned.
If I don't want to have that obligation, then I can negotiate up front, or take on the risk of being a consultant or startup founder.
Thought experiment: ask yourself whether you'd hire someone advertising my work ethic or yours, if all other aspects are equal between the candidates.
Then ask yourself why you answered as you did, and which response the market will reward better in hiring.
My reason for this stance is my personal code of ethics, not pragmatism, but I think the pragmatic consideration may clarify my point.
You put a lot of weight on your morals and work ethic but my point is that those mean nothing to me. I don't care how hard you work to get the job done. Once you're salaried, how efficiently you perform your job is up to you, and what action I take when you don't meet the pace I expect is up to me. When I manage a team, I encourage those on my team to bring up any obstructions or changes they'd want to see to improve the efficiency of their work - past that I don't care as long as they understand the timelines we are working under and if everything is on time, why would I add undue stress to my team?
If timelines become tighter, at that point, and only at that point, would I crack down on efficiency.
>Thought experiment: ask yourself whether you'd hire someone advertising my work ethic or yours, if all other aspects are equal between the candidates.
That's like asking all else being equal, would I hire the person who wore Air Force 1s to the interview or the person who wore chelsea boots. That has nothing to do with your performance of your job and any distinction on that matter is personal preference. The only thing that is important is are you getting the job done on the pace it needs to get done.
At this point you seem like you'd discriminate your employees based on which IDE they were using. If they produced good work, would you care that the most productive person on your team was using Notepad++ to do their job?
If timelines become tighter, at that point, and only at that point, would I crack down on efficiency.
>Thought experiment: ask yourself whether you'd hire someone advertising my work ethic or yours, if all other aspects are equal between the candidates.
That's like asking all else being equal, would I hire the person who wore Air Force 1s to the interview or the person who wore chelsea boots. That has nothing to do with your performance of your job and any distinction on that matter is personal preference. The only thing that is important is are you getting the job done on the pace it needs to get done.
At this point you seem like you'd discriminate your employees based on which IDE they were using. If they produced good work, would you care that the most productive person on your team was using Notepad++ to do their job?
Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying.
It sounded to me like you were suggesting an hour or three a day of actually focusing your attention on your workplace is plenty for a full-time, salaried employee.
If that's not what you mean, then I've obviously misunderstood you.
What do you suggest regarding hours of "butt in seat" when WFH? It's a truly wretched metric for productivity, but I think ignoring it entirely is unwise.
I would (and do) encourage my teammates to use whatever editor or IDE they want, as long as it doesn't cause issues for the rest of the team (which I have seen crappy obscure tools do, in one memorable case by converting line endings to classic Mac OS style across many files, but only on edited lines).
> That's like asking all else being equal, would I hire the person who wore Air Force 1s to the interview or the person who wore chelsea boots. That has nothing to do with your performance of your job and any distinction on that matter is personal preference. The only thing that is important is are you getting the job done on the pace it needs to get done.
Whether a candidate thinks they should put in 8 hours a day vs. two or four, if that's all their current task takes, is directly relevant to how effective an employee they will be.
It is not at all like what kind of shoes they wore to the interview, which is indeed unrelated to their technical skills or workplace conduct.
As far as ethics or working hard mattering, I think of them as necessary but not sufficient. If I have a great work ethic and bust my butt but do not achieve anything, I'm a poor employee.
When I have a task estimated at four hours but it takes me two, I don't think "Sweet, HN until lunchtime," I grab the next thing off the stack.
Like I said, perhaps I'm not understanding what you're trying to describe.
It sounded to me like you were suggesting an hour or three a day of actually focusing your attention on your workplace is plenty for a full-time, salaried employee.
If that's not what you mean, then I've obviously misunderstood you.
What do you suggest regarding hours of "butt in seat" when WFH? It's a truly wretched metric for productivity, but I think ignoring it entirely is unwise.
I would (and do) encourage my teammates to use whatever editor or IDE they want, as long as it doesn't cause issues for the rest of the team (which I have seen crappy obscure tools do, in one memorable case by converting line endings to classic Mac OS style across many files, but only on edited lines).
> That's like asking all else being equal, would I hire the person who wore Air Force 1s to the interview or the person who wore chelsea boots. That has nothing to do with your performance of your job and any distinction on that matter is personal preference. The only thing that is important is are you getting the job done on the pace it needs to get done.
Whether a candidate thinks they should put in 8 hours a day vs. two or four, if that's all their current task takes, is directly relevant to how effective an employee they will be.
It is not at all like what kind of shoes they wore to the interview, which is indeed unrelated to their technical skills or workplace conduct.
As far as ethics or working hard mattering, I think of them as necessary but not sufficient. If I have a great work ethic and bust my butt but do not achieve anything, I'm a poor employee.
When I have a task estimated at four hours but it takes me two, I don't think "Sweet, HN until lunchtime," I grab the next thing off the stack.
Like I said, perhaps I'm not understanding what you're trying to describe.
A bit more than you're aiming for, but from anecdata I heard, it's relatively popular and accepted in Switzerland to work 4 days a week in IT.
In other countries I'm aware of it's probably not that common, except when you're really senior in your domain and have unique skills.
In other countries I'm aware of it's probably not that common, except when you're really senior in your domain and have unique skills.
It's certainly possible. Some people do it in my company. Either working part-time, or contracting. A lot of things are possible, but it depends on how hard you're willing to try, and how valuable you are for your employer.
Yeah it could perhaps be easier if I manage to transition to a niche (or two) that is in high and stable demand.
I haven't tried this personally but my company has a relevant policy and I've considered it from time to time.
The employee handbook lays out opportunity to take x% of your current hours for x% of your current pay. If you'd be happy working 4x8s and 80% salary + 80% bonus works for you? As long as your manager doesn't object, go for it.
I think this is a great benefit to offer. Abstractly, I imagine that the system means that once you hit an income threshold you're happy with, a 10% raise immediately gets converted into 10% less hours per week. You never retire, just get asymptotically close to doing so.
The employee handbook lays out opportunity to take x% of your current hours for x% of your current pay. If you'd be happy working 4x8s and 80% salary + 80% bonus works for you? As long as your manager doesn't object, go for it.
I think this is a great benefit to offer. Abstractly, I imagine that the system means that once you hit an income threshold you're happy with, a 10% raise immediately gets converted into 10% less hours per week. You never retire, just get asymptotically close to doing so.
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The easiest way to do this is by becoming a contractor. Your client(s) don't have to know that the other 20 hours a week you're kicking back rather than slaving away on a different client's project.
That’s a very interesting idea.
Any suggestions on what kinds of assignments that would work better or worse in such a setting?
Many of the consultants I’ve seen in IT are more like regular employees except that they are employed buy the consultants. (I.e. they sit in the client’s office 40 h/week.) But I guess there are other ways to do it.
Any suggestions on what kinds of assignments that would work better or worse in such a setting?
Many of the consultants I’ve seen in IT are more like regular employees except that they are employed buy the consultants. (I.e. they sit in the client’s office 40 h/week.) But I guess there are other ways to do it.
Is there anything you're an expert at? Postgres, Django, React, etc.?
Companies hiring contractors want to pay somebody to "show up" (perhaps virtually) and do the one thing they're an expert at, not waste time getting up to speed or learning on the job.
Figure out what you're an expert in, and contact some recruiting firms that hire for contracting gigs in that area. Explain that your schedule is "half full already" but you'd like to fit something else in, if it's the right opportunity.
Companies hiring contractors want to pay somebody to "show up" (perhaps virtually) and do the one thing they're an expert at, not waste time getting up to speed or learning on the job.
Figure out what you're an expert in, and contact some recruiting firms that hire for contracting gigs in that area. Explain that your schedule is "half full already" but you'd like to fit something else in, if it's the right opportunity.
That’s a really good phrasing.
I’ve been working mostly in IT and I’m a bit of a generalist. I’ve thought about doing contracting and specialising ”on-the-go”. It could work... but it could also be a bit stressful. I think my current job will allow me to go quite deep in some areas so I might want to hang on to it for a while in order to allow for better opportunities further down the road.
I’ve been working mostly in IT and I’m a bit of a generalist. I’ve thought about doing contracting and specialising ”on-the-go”. It could work... but it could also be a bit stressful. I think my current job will allow me to go quite deep in some areas so I might want to hang on to it for a while in order to allow for better opportunities further down the road.
I take this kind of approach but tend to do full-time for a few months then have a month or two off when it ends, depending on how I feel.
Do you make comparable hourly pay to full time work?
Frequently more! Obviously it depends how lucrative your full-time gig is, but a common rule of thumb is that contractors make 2x hourly rate because they have to assume more risks (insurance, retirement, etc.) themselves.
How would this work when substantial equity is involved? It makes sense that if you drop your hours, your salary would drop in proportion. But if a substantial amount of your total comp is from unvested equity, it doesn't makes as much sense. Your employer can't take away unvested equity, right? If so it seems like your employer would have much less incentive to want to do something like this - you may be working half as much, but your total comp only drops by like 25% or something.
In some places I've worked, HR has a hidden target total compensation for each employee. When they make compensation adjustments, they try to bring you slightly closer to that goal. In this case, they might drop just your salary proportionally since that appears fair, but future adjustments will be lower or zero until your target compensation is above your actual compensation.
Good question. I can see that being an issue in the US.
In my case, I actually work in IT rather than tech. Equity is never part of the deal. I think equity is much more common for US employees than it is for European.
In my case, I actually work in IT rather than tech. Equity is never part of the deal. I think equity is much more common for US employees than it is for European.
You'd get an adjusted equity package.
Work a remote job, and finish your work quickly every day.
not that simple when you have people pinging you and asking questions or meetings, etc etc. i mean you can just slack off maybe after doing several hours of deep work, but theres no way you can just log off and go do your own thing without anybody noticing
Logging off and not being reachable is entirely a function of expectation management though. It's difficult to go from responding in a minute every time to responding the next day, that's true. But try stretching your response times by 15 minutes per week and give reasonable and unassailable excuses like "I was on the phone with my mother". Pretty soon you will find that expectations about your reachability will change.
Or your coworkers might notice your chronic unavailability and deception.
I mean it depends, we usually do a standup on the morning but in the evening no one usually pings me. I just put Slack and email on my phone, and generally I don't do stuff outside the house during work hours so I can still respond early.
It is easy to make companies cut your salary but difficult to make them respect the reduced work hours!
Wife has been working nominally 4 days a week at the G of FAANG for several years. Prorated to 80% of the salary. Management has repeatedly stated that they expect far more than 40hrs/week from a full-timer, so an 80%-timer better turn in at least 40+ hours. Which largely defeats the intended benefit of doing a 4 days week.
Wife has been working nominally 4 days a week at the G of FAANG for several years. Prorated to 80% of the salary. Management has repeatedly stated that they expect far more than 40hrs/week from a full-timer, so an 80%-timer better turn in at least 40+ hours. Which largely defeats the intended benefit of doing a 4 days week.
Give us a bit more background (location, work domain, etc.)
For EU/UK market: Contracting. You can get small gigs (but on a low pay) on places like Upwork, or you can get a proper contract with a company that needs hands for 3-6-12 months on a larger project. Some of the Big4 also do contracting work on which you are the back-end (think Service Center) for large IT projects (and/or compliance etc.)
For EU/UK market: Contracting. You can get small gigs (but on a low pay) on places like Upwork, or you can get a proper contract with a company that needs hands for 3-6-12 months on a larger project. Some of the Big4 also do contracting work on which you are the back-end (think Service Center) for large IT projects (and/or compliance etc.)
Location is Stockholm, Sweden and I’ve done lots of IT support kind of work, but very recently transitioned to doing more of sysadmin kind of work for a small MSP (Managed Service Provider).
I work about 25 hours a week at home right now. I started with a startup tech company and at first we were doing 35 hours a week but we decided those 10 hours allowed us to work slowly. By cutting down our hours we were able to get more stuff done in a short amount of time with deadlines and the pressure of time limits
I've sent you an email re:part time work :)
i have worked a full-time job one year in my entire life. after that always part-time. part time sounds bad but it's just you leaving the office at 1pm(or however that works out for you). it is the best setup and i have been working like this for over a decade. i prefer to work from office but it is not easy to find local companies for this setup and either way you have to be a self-employed entity. so i rented a desk at my previous job and worked from there for other companies, part-time, for many years. now i work from home since i have not found suitable alternative for my office since the company have moved to new space. but now i work on pre-paid hours, credit-like system, if you will. and have no schedule whatsoever. client pays me for certain amount of hours, upfront, and then as i work i just work up to the amount of hours i got paid. nobody is looking over my shoulder, nobody is giving me deadlines. when it's done, it's done. best setup, bar none. but ymmv. i charge enough so i can work hour or two a day if i want. i could make a bank if i would go do a full-time gig again and i have been thinking about it, for a year, to save money but i have not found interesting jobs so yeah... it is a individualistic lifestyle, not suitable for everyone. but as i have said, you can rent a desk at a company you know people from or something like that, so you are with people and not alone all doy long. i would not recommend corowking spaces at all though. that's the worst setup i can imagine.
My dream is to come down to about 15-25 working hours per week.
I don’t mean to work part-time for all of my career. But I would like to have such an arrangement for the coming five years or so.
Has anyone tried this? If so, how did you manage to achieve your goal?