I used the internet to painlessly relearn a foreign language(medium.com)
medium.com
I used the internet to painlessly relearn a foreign language
https://medium.com/@robertwiblin/how-i-used-the-internet-to-painlessly-relearn-a-foreign-language-and-you-could-to-63139f0dc5b6
170 comments
Specifically to point #2:
I would highly recommend RFI's podcast (Le Journal en Français Facile). At first, it's intimidating, and, despite the name, doesn't feel easy at all. They use simpler vocabulary, but still talk at full speed. You might need to listen to each episode a few times in a row, and read the transcript. And that's exactly what makes it such an effective tool. Struggling through it is part of training your brain to make sense of the sounds of the new language.
There are other options out there that try to be easy for learners by speaking very slowly. That's a trap. It's absolutely easier to understand, but you're learning to understand the wrong thing. The phonics of many languages undergo some subtle mutations when they are spoken slowly. This is especially true in French. So if you only listen to slow language that's over-pronounced to make it easier for learners to understand, you'll end up training your ear to understand the phonics of slow language that's over-pronounced for learners. Which isn't how actual people actually speak.
I would highly recommend RFI's podcast (Le Journal en Français Facile). At first, it's intimidating, and, despite the name, doesn't feel easy at all. They use simpler vocabulary, but still talk at full speed. You might need to listen to each episode a few times in a row, and read the transcript. And that's exactly what makes it such an effective tool. Struggling through it is part of training your brain to make sense of the sounds of the new language.
There are other options out there that try to be easy for learners by speaking very slowly. That's a trap. It's absolutely easier to understand, but you're learning to understand the wrong thing. The phonics of many languages undergo some subtle mutations when they are spoken slowly. This is especially true in French. So if you only listen to slow language that's over-pronounced to make it easier for learners to understand, you'll end up training your ear to understand the phonics of slow language that's over-pronounced for learners. Which isn't how actual people actually speak.
Indeed, the “trick” to learning any language is money and time.
Félicitations ! C'est impressionnant.
Impressive. But which one is your mother tongue?
Mother tongue is Swedish, and I had done some school Spanish when I was younger. However I feel the Spanish was more in the way than actually helping me at the time.
I think french is estimated to require about 600h of study, or something like that, for an English speaker, and that is probably a bit more than what I did. But it seems ball-park right.
Edit: Na, thinking about it, I think I did do about 600h, maybe even a bit more.
I think french is estimated to require about 600h of study, or something like that, for an English speaker, and that is probably a bit more than what I did. But it seems ball-park right.
Edit: Na, thinking about it, I think I did do about 600h, maybe even a bit more.
Wow! So you spent more than 6 hours a day for three months?
Yes, maybe. I would say maybe 4h per day on week days, and some more hours on weekend. And then the last couple of weeks I spent even more than that, maybe upwards 10 hours, or more. But then I was at an immersive course, where we where only allowed to speak french.
When I travelled France I also lived a couple of days with an old retired wine consultant. He only spoke french, and when I got back from day trips in Provence, I would sit with him and just talk and drink wine. That also helped a lot.
In the few years I've been studying Spanish, I've found that the (take your pick of) wine/mezcal/sidra always helps a lot with my ability to speak.
This comment is certainly a bit tongue-in-cheek but being able to relax the nerves a bit and just give it a good effort sometimes goes a long way. Sounds like landing with a wine consultant who doesn't speak your native tongue is about as good a scenario as possible!
This comment is certainly a bit tongue-in-cheek but being able to relax the nerves a bit and just give it a good effort sometimes goes a long way. Sounds like landing with a wine consultant who doesn't speak your native tongue is about as good a scenario as possible!
The Ballmer Peak applies to many things it would seem.
Can we get a relative scale for roughly how much, when you say expensive?
Can’t remember, and for some reason the price doesn’t say in my old mails. Maybe 10-20USD per session?
I tried maybe 5 different tutors before I settled for one.
She was based in Hong Kong (which I believe she still is) and comes from central France. She was doing italki as a side gig teaching French in HK during days.
She was based in Hong Kong (which I believe she still is) and comes from central France. She was doing italki as a side gig teaching French in HK during days.
In US dollars, a professional French teacher on iTalki will typically cost $20-$30 per hour.
You can reduce the price by going with "community tutors" instead. The price is lower, but they typically aren't professional teachers, so you're effectively paying for a conversation partner rather than actual lessons.
The region the teacher comes from is also a factor, due to cost of living differences. So the price can vary from language to language and dialect to dialect.
You can reduce the price by going with "community tutors" instead. The price is lower, but they typically aren't professional teachers, so you're effectively paying for a conversation partner rather than actual lessons.
The region the teacher comes from is also a factor, due to cost of living differences. So the price can vary from language to language and dialect to dialect.
Any good sources for Audiobooks and kids books?
I’ll try to find them. They where about a small boy in Provence. I believe they are quiet famous in France.
For the audiobooks I tried to do books that I had already read myself previously. I found that to be better. So for example Bilbo (the french audio version is excellent) and Little Prince, for example.
For the audiobooks I tried to do books that I had already read myself previously. I found that to be better. So for example Bilbo (the french audio version is excellent) and Little Prince, for example.
For French: http://www.litteratureaudio.com
I think the most important part here is for those who learn a language and wish to maintain it. I failed here. Don't fail like I did.
Make sure, once you have learned a language, to turn part of your life into a world operating in that language. Choose something - news, movies, books, internet - just pick something. Do that thing only in your new language once you can.
Once that becomes a habit, what you have learned you will not forget. And you will get better over time as well as your brain painlessly absorbs and deeply programs in the target language.
Second most important part - It takes a lot of work and consistency. Say that with me - consistency. Show up every day. If you don't, you will fail. That's one of those terrible truths about learning, and it is especially true about learning a language.
Make sure, once you have learned a language, to turn part of your life into a world operating in that language. Choose something - news, movies, books, internet - just pick something. Do that thing only in your new language once you can.
Once that becomes a habit, what you have learned you will not forget. And you will get better over time as well as your brain painlessly absorbs and deeply programs in the target language.
Second most important part - It takes a lot of work and consistency. Say that with me - consistency. Show up every day. If you don't, you will fail. That's one of those terrible truths about learning, and it is especially true about learning a language.
> It takes a lot of work and consistency. Say that with me - consistency. Show up every day. If you don't, you will fail. That's one of those terrible truths about learning, and it is especially true about learning a language.
William Buckley was lost for more than 30 years among Australian aborigines. By the time he heard of whites in the vicinity, he was unable to speak to them, having forgotten how to produce English.
But, assuming you believe his memoirs, when they spoke to him, he regained his English within a day.
William Buckley was lost for more than 30 years among Australian aborigines. By the time he heard of whites in the vicinity, he was unable to speak to them, having forgotten how to produce English.
But, assuming you believe his memoirs, when they spoke to him, he regained his English within a day.
I can see that happening. For example he could've been mentally stuck in a "Australian aborigine" language mode, and experienced some sort of "cat got his tongue" situation where he temporarily couldn't even think or summon english to speak with. So until they started interacting and he was able to wake up those neural pathways then it would come back. So he probably somewhat felt like he was re-learning the language at an accelerated pace since he already had the neural wiring for english.
Do you know of, or can recommend, any studies on this "waking up the neural pathways" effect? I'm wondering what is happening here, surely it's more than simply firing those pathways as I'd imagine that to happen within seconds as opposed to the day or so it took him to recover.
Thanks
IANAN but I think "waking up neural pathways" can be understood to mean making new synaptic connections, a process that is not instant and could potentially take a day if the existing connections were intact.
Often requiring sleep too I believe, with specific brain activity that simply doesn't occur while awake.
My English (my first and only natural language) definitely takes a while to recover from a single day spent programming, so I can definitely see that happening.
> experienced some sort of "cat got his tongue" situation where he temporarily couldn't even think or summon english to speak with.
Something like that happens to me sometimes. I get stuck for a word in Norwegian and suddenly find that I can't summon the English word either (English is my mother tongue but I have been living and working in Norway since '86).
I am now capable of being tongue-tied in two languages simultaneously!
But of course it all comes back to me quickly once I switch back to speaking only English.
Something like that happens to me sometimes. I get stuck for a word in Norwegian and suddenly find that I can't summon the English word either (English is my mother tongue but I have been living and working in Norway since '86).
I am now capable of being tongue-tied in two languages simultaneously!
But of course it all comes back to me quickly once I switch back to speaking only English.
> I get stuck for a word in Norwegian and suddenly find that I can't summon the English word either (English is my mother tongue but I have been living and working in Norway since '86).
Side note: this is one of many points sufficient to disprove the popular idea that words are the medium of thought. Thought is not linguistic.
Side note: this is one of many points sufficient to disprove the popular idea that words are the medium of thought. Thought is not linguistic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Buckley_(convict)
For anyone else who wasn't familiar with this story.
For anyone else who wasn't familiar with this story.
From the Wikipedia article: " ... his significant first meeting with a group of Wathaurong women, [occurred] several months after his escape [in 1803]. Buckley had taken a spear used to mark a grave for use as a walking stick. The women befriended him after recognising the spear as belonging to a relative who had recently died and invited him back to their camp. Believed to be the returned spirit of the former tribesman, he was joyfully welcomed and adopted by the group. ...
Buckley also recounted information about warfare among Aboriginal people. According to Buckley he was a central part of life among the Australian hunter-gatherers. He had often witnessed wars, raids, and blood-feuds. This information was uniquely important ... "
The Wikipedia article links to John Morgan's interesting account of William Buckley's life, written in 1852: https://archive.org/details/lifeandadventur00morggoog/page/n...
The Wikipedia article links to John Morgan's interesting account of William Buckley's life, written in 1852: https://archive.org/details/lifeandadventur00morggoog/page/n...
I learned French, German and Italian to a good level at school and then by working there in my early 20s. Some decades later, I don't speak them that often but sometimes at work with customers. I am still pretty good in all 3, and a day or two in country polishes off the rust, e.g. on holiday, though of course not back to my highest level.
I later tried to learn Spanish - (similar to French/Italian) but couldn't get it to the same level - easy come, easy go. Long term interest in Aikido lead my to attempting Japanese - but again it's never stuck. At university took a course in Russian - made good progress for a year and then left it - all gone!
So for me it's a combination: - learning to a sufficient level, - with consistent effort at the time (some level of immersion) - it is easier when brain is younger!
I later tried to learn Spanish - (similar to French/Italian) but couldn't get it to the same level - easy come, easy go. Long term interest in Aikido lead my to attempting Japanese - but again it's never stuck. At university took a course in Russian - made good progress for a year and then left it - all gone!
So for me it's a combination: - learning to a sufficient level, - with consistent effort at the time (some level of immersion) - it is easier when brain is younger!
I have lived abroad for about 20 years now, when I am back home it is always a painful exercise to remember some Portuguese slang and street expressions.
Naturally after a couple of days I am back home.
It isn't worse, because thanks to Internet I am able to keep in touch with my native tongue still.
So yeah, I do believe his memoirs.
Naturally after a couple of days I am back home.
It isn't worse, because thanks to Internet I am able to keep in touch with my native tongue still.
So yeah, I do believe his memoirs.
“But, assuming you believe his memoirs, when they spoke to him, he regained his English within a day.”
I think this works if the language is your native language or if you have immersed yourself. I used to be ok with French but after a few years of not using it there is not much left.
I think this works if the language is your native language or if you have immersed yourself. I used to be ok with French but after a few years of not using it there is not much left.
You’d be amazed how fast it comes back. I hadn’t used French in over a decade last time I went to France. In the taxi to our hotel I could barely string two words together. Ten days later in the one to the airport I was having a real conversation, if with terrible grammar and poor vocabulary.
When I was coming back to Denmark I did some reading on academic studies related to relearning languages, one study I found said that if someone has spoken a language for 8 years (or the first 8 years of their life as it was focused on childhood language being relearned in adulthood) then they will never lose that language - unfortunately I spoke Danish the first 6 years of my life and when I came back I started to remember German which occupied the part of my mind focused on non-English language.
And his son went on to become a preëminent conservative intellectual and author!
I started learning Japanese a while back, and studied slowly for a few years.
Then I fell off studying, but kept using it recreationally. I didn't pick 1 medium and insist on it because I have a wife that doesn't speak Japanese at all and that just doesn't work.
But I do still use it occasionally for games, anime (with English subs), manga, and sometimes live TV. It's pretty seldom, but it happens.
After a few years of that, I rejoined a Japanese meetup group locally for reading a Manga with them that's above my level. I'm realizing that I'm basically where I was when I stopped studying. I haven't really lost anything.
My point is that I don't think you need to be extreme to maintain. Just casual usage across different media is enough.
Then I fell off studying, but kept using it recreationally. I didn't pick 1 medium and insist on it because I have a wife that doesn't speak Japanese at all and that just doesn't work.
But I do still use it occasionally for games, anime (with English subs), manga, and sometimes live TV. It's pretty seldom, but it happens.
After a few years of that, I rejoined a Japanese meetup group locally for reading a Manga with them that's above my level. I'm realizing that I'm basically where I was when I stopped studying. I haven't really lost anything.
My point is that I don't think you need to be extreme to maintain. Just casual usage across different media is enough.
Almost a year ago I decided to start learning Russian so that I can talk with my girlfriend in her native language (the things we do for love )
Initially I tried the usual things like Duolingo, Babbel and some other apps. Out of those things the only one I found useful was Duolingo because it can get you started pretty quickly.
However, I got stuck after that. I couldn't see myself making any progress. Then I stumbled upon the Comprehensible Input theory and TPRS and since then I've been studying Russian using a method that loosely follows these. Here's what I do:
- I find short stories, news articles, social media posts etc online. - I read those texts and mark down the new words as I learn them. I add those words in a flashcard app and I practice them using SRS. I use an app called Ulangi. - I ask my girlfriend (a native speaker) to ask me short questions about the text and I have to answer in my target language. - Once I feel comfortable with that text I repeat the process with the next one.
And it works (at least for me). I grew my vocabulary immensely, I can acquire grammar rules naturally (like I did with my native language) and I get to actually speak the language from day 1. As an added bonus I get to learn a lot about the culture of my target language.
However, translating and saving words in my vocabulary became tedious so I decided to automate this whole process. So I started building a tool for me. I, then, realized that this might be useful for others so I made it public. You can use it for free at Talkabl.com
Initially I tried the usual things like Duolingo, Babbel and some other apps. Out of those things the only one I found useful was Duolingo because it can get you started pretty quickly.
However, I got stuck after that. I couldn't see myself making any progress. Then I stumbled upon the Comprehensible Input theory and TPRS and since then I've been studying Russian using a method that loosely follows these. Here's what I do:
- I find short stories, news articles, social media posts etc online. - I read those texts and mark down the new words as I learn them. I add those words in a flashcard app and I practice them using SRS. I use an app called Ulangi. - I ask my girlfriend (a native speaker) to ask me short questions about the text and I have to answer in my target language. - Once I feel comfortable with that text I repeat the process with the next one.
And it works (at least for me). I grew my vocabulary immensely, I can acquire grammar rules naturally (like I did with my native language) and I get to actually speak the language from day 1. As an added bonus I get to learn a lot about the culture of my target language.
However, translating and saving words in my vocabulary became tedious so I decided to automate this whole process. So I started building a tool for me. I, then, realized that this might be useful for others so I made it public. You can use it for free at Talkabl.com
This is excellent! Lots of potential here.
On mobile, I just tested the default French lesson. Right now, the 'dictionary' seems to be displayed dependent on where the last appearance of the word in the text. This means that if I select a word in the first paragraph but the word also appears in the last paragraph, I have to scroll to the bottom to see its definition (and add it to 'my list'). (ex: 'protestaires' in the default FR lesson) The column, in mobile view, gets bumped to the bottom.
I don't think you have to go as far as a modal window - something as simple as 'position:fixed' would let it pop on top of the text (though right now, the dictionary box doesn't have a defined independent class and is not contained). It's probably best for the large-screen view as well: you don't want your text body to be moving around while reading.
But seriously, this is one of the simplest, smartest and most extensible language learning tools I've come across. Thank you for sharing it.
edit// It's a FF/Webkit quirk, but because the parent element (.bx--content) has 'transform' property applied to it, it will prevent the child div from actually responding to 'position:fixed'.
On mobile, I just tested the default French lesson. Right now, the 'dictionary' seems to be displayed dependent on where the last appearance of the word in the text. This means that if I select a word in the first paragraph but the word also appears in the last paragraph, I have to scroll to the bottom to see its definition (and add it to 'my list'). (ex: 'protestaires' in the default FR lesson) The column, in mobile view, gets bumped to the bottom.
I don't think you have to go as far as a modal window - something as simple as 'position:fixed' would let it pop on top of the text (though right now, the dictionary box doesn't have a defined independent class and is not contained). It's probably best for the large-screen view as well: you don't want your text body to be moving around while reading.
But seriously, this is one of the simplest, smartest and most extensible language learning tools I've come across. Thank you for sharing it.
edit// It's a FF/Webkit quirk, but because the parent element (.bx--content) has 'transform' property applied to it, it will prevent the child div from actually responding to 'position:fixed'.
Hey there! Wow thanks for the kind words :) Really glad you liked it.
Yes, I know that the dictionary experience on mobile is suboptimal. When I started this project I thought most people would access it on desktop but I couldn't be more wrong :) Most people use it on mobile. I released this week a couple of audio fixes for mobile browsers but didn't get to the dictionary issues. I will fix it pretty soon!
Thanks for noticing and keep using it and sharing your thoughts.
Yes, I know that the dictionary experience on mobile is suboptimal. When I started this project I thought most people would access it on desktop but I couldn't be more wrong :) Most people use it on mobile. I released this week a couple of audio fixes for mobile browsers but didn't get to the dictionary issues. I will fix it pretty soon!
Thanks for noticing and keep using it and sharing your thoughts.
Awesome.
An attempt to create a lesson fails with:
"An error occured while creating the lesson
Network error: Failed to fetch"
So I retried. Now I have two of the same lessons. How can I delete?
Also, is the text-to-speech defined by the voices on the local machine? Because I'm getting the playback in native language only. (The target lang voice is installed...) (edit: had french/canada installed and I guess it doesn't count...)
Also, is there a more appropriate place for me to provide feedback/ask questions?
So I retried. Now I have two of the same lessons. How can I delete?
Also, is the text-to-speech defined by the voices on the local machine? Because I'm getting the playback in native language only. (The target lang voice is installed...) (edit: had french/canada installed and I guess it doesn't count...)
Also, is there a more appropriate place for me to provide feedback/ask questions?
Atm there is no delete button but I'll add that to the backlog. Thanks for sharing!!
The text-to-speech uses Speech synthesis from the Web Speech API and I wish it worked seamlessly on all browsers but it doesn't. Are you using it on mobile? If yes and your device is a Samsung one please check that you are using Google's TTS engine and not Samsung's.
"You can pick which one by going to the Settings app, then Controls->Language and input->Text-to-speech options. Select the gear icon next to Google Text-to-speech Engine, then under Language you can update the exact locale you want to use. If you select "Install voice data" you can even select from a sample of different voices for some locales. You need to restart the device after changing this setting for it to take effect."
Yes, please shoot me an email at admin @ talkabl.com and let's pick it up from there :) Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
The text-to-speech uses Speech synthesis from the Web Speech API and I wish it worked seamlessly on all browsers but it doesn't. Are you using it on mobile? If yes and your device is a Samsung one please check that you are using Google's TTS engine and not Samsung's.
"You can pick which one by going to the Settings app, then Controls->Language and input->Text-to-speech options. Select the gear icon next to Google Text-to-speech Engine, then under Language you can update the exact locale you want to use. If you select "Install voice data" you can even select from a sample of different voices for some locales. You need to restart the device after changing this setting for it to take effect."
Yes, please shoot me an email at admin @ talkabl.com and let's pick it up from there :) Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.
Very interesting. It is great that one can export it to Anki too. Does it handle incremental exports properly? For example, I export the vocabulary today with 10 words and import it to Anki. Then I add 5 more words and export the whole set again. If I import it into Anki, will Anki remember my history with the old words?
Hey there! I'm not sure it can handle the incremental exports. I'll have a look and check if it can be done. Thanks for the pointer.
That looks great! Definitely warrants its own submission in my opinion.
What do you have to do in order to support extra languages? Perhaps ensure font support if loading from web, and the dictionary comes from Wiktionary so you do need to know what language it is, but other than that should 'just work', anything else?
What do you have to do in order to support extra languages? Perhaps ensure font support if loading from web, and the dictionary comes from Wiktionary so you do need to know what language it is, but other than that should 'just work', anything else?
Hey thanks :) I didn't submit it yet in HN but tried to do so in more relevant communities such as /r/languagelearning etc. Buuuut, HN surely has a lot of people interested in language learning too so I will submit it at some point :)
Regarding new extra languages - good question :) Thankfully because of the way the code was written, not a lot of work is needed to support a new language. I went from just 1 language (Russian) to the ones I support now in just 1-2 days worth of work. Having said that, some languages are trickier. For example, Japanese needed more work on how the tokens (words/characters) are parsed and split in the UI (to be honest I'm still not sure about how well it works). Also, not all languages are created equal according to Wiktionary. Some languages have way more Wiktionary entries than others (e.g. Korean has fewer entries than Russian). Also, I use some NLP libs for tokenization and lemmatization which vary in accuracy depending on the language.
The whole idea of the project is to experiment with how much can language learning be automated. Can we enable more people to learn a new language if they do not have access to native speakers or teachers? So automating some parts might need some sacrifices in the quality of the material but quite frankly from my own experience the benefit outweighs the occasional wrong word here and there :)
Regarding new extra languages - good question :) Thankfully because of the way the code was written, not a lot of work is needed to support a new language. I went from just 1 language (Russian) to the ones I support now in just 1-2 days worth of work. Having said that, some languages are trickier. For example, Japanese needed more work on how the tokens (words/characters) are parsed and split in the UI (to be honest I'm still not sure about how well it works). Also, not all languages are created equal according to Wiktionary. Some languages have way more Wiktionary entries than others (e.g. Korean has fewer entries than Russian). Also, I use some NLP libs for tokenization and lemmatization which vary in accuracy depending on the language.
The whole idea of the project is to experiment with how much can language learning be automated. Can we enable more people to learn a new language if they do not have access to native speakers or teachers? So automating some parts might need some sacrifices in the quality of the material but quite frankly from my own experience the benefit outweighs the occasional wrong word here and there :)
> You can use it for free at Talkabl.com
I picked French and clicked the "Listen to the lesson" button. But what I got was my computer speaking French words as though they were English. Even my French accent, almost fifty years after failing my high school French exams, is better.
:-)
Can anyone tell me how to make it speak French French instead of Franglais? Apart from that it looks interesting.
I picked French and clicked the "Listen to the lesson" button. But what I got was my computer speaking French words as though they were English. Even my French accent, almost fifty years after failing my high school French exams, is better.
:-)
Can anyone tell me how to make it speak French French instead of Franglais? Apart from that it looks interesting.
Hey :) hahaha indeed the text to speech feature might sound unnatural sometimes. I use the Web Speech API but unfortunately it doesn't work on all browsers seamlessly.
Are you using it on mobile? If yes and your device is a Samsung one please check that you are using Google's TTS engine and not Samsung's.
"You can pick which one by going to the Settings app, then Controls->Language and input->Text-to-speech options. Select the gear icon next to Google Text-to-speech Engine, then under Language you can update the exact locale you want to use. If you select "Install voice data" you can even select from a sample of different voices for some locales. You need to restart the device after changing this setting for it to take effect."
Let me know if you got it working. You can also switch browser to check if it works on a different one. I really wish Web speech API was more consistent.
Are you using it on mobile? If yes and your device is a Samsung one please check that you are using Google's TTS engine and not Samsung's.
"You can pick which one by going to the Settings app, then Controls->Language and input->Text-to-speech options. Select the gear icon next to Google Text-to-speech Engine, then under Language you can update the exact locale you want to use. If you select "Install voice data" you can even select from a sample of different voices for some locales. You need to restart the device after changing this setting for it to take effect."
Let me know if you got it working. You can also switch browser to check if it works on a different one. I really wish Web speech API was more consistent.
I had to install the French voice from Microsoft. But Firefox still spoke English even when I chose French in the Windows Speech Settings. It works in Microsoft Edge but there is a different problem there: it won't stop when I hit the pause button.
thanks for sharing! Cross-browser compatibility for the web speech API is really an issue. Unfortunately, different browsers behave differently (and not in a predictable way).
I'll have a look at this though. Thanks for sharing.
I'll have a look at this though. Thanks for sharing.
I was using it in Firefox 81.0, 64 bit on Windows 10.
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My strategy for Latvian was roughly as follows:
- Go mad because you don't understand a word of what's happening around you for the first time in your life.
- Decide to do something about it.
- Take a three week university summer introductory course. Erasmus courses area great idea.
- Always actively speak the language when in native company.
- Pick up at least the basics from news broadcasts.
- Read childrens' books and written press.
- Study five common new words a day from my actual use (speaking, listening, reading) using a spaced repetition algorithm. The article mentions ankiweb. It's stellar. Picking from your own use tailors to your needs and interests. It also makes finding example phrases easier.
That worked rather well for me getting to CEFR[0] C1 in Latvian.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_R...
- Go mad because you don't understand a word of what's happening around you for the first time in your life.
- Decide to do something about it.
- Take a three week university summer introductory course. Erasmus courses area great idea.
- Always actively speak the language when in native company.
- Pick up at least the basics from news broadcasts.
- Read childrens' books and written press.
- Study five common new words a day from my actual use (speaking, listening, reading) using a spaced repetition algorithm. The article mentions ankiweb. It's stellar. Picking from your own use tailors to your needs and interests. It also makes finding example phrases easier.
That worked rather well for me getting to CEFR[0] C1 in Latvian.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_R...
I find childrens books full of all kinds of weird, bizarre phrases and plays on words, made up words and nonsensical stories.
Yeah, I thought it was a great idea, but when I actually started looking for a couple in Hindi (using Amazon's 'look inside' preview) it seemed like they give you pretty complex grammar relative to the uselessly basic vocabulary.
Which does make sense for children, in English for example learning as a first language 'and on the dog's log, a cat was sitting gracefully' (mental block for a more basic adverb than 'gracefully' here) might be perfectly natural and simple, but for an adult ESL learner... it's not great. At the point where an adult's learning vocabulary like 'dog', 'log', (which er.. actually I don't know in Hindi) and 'cat', they don't want awkward grammar like past continuous 'was sitting', less common adverb position, subordinate clauses. Better would be 'a cat gracefully sat on the dog's log' grammar, but with more interesting vocabulary. Not because you won't ever say dog or cat, but because by the time you're reading to advance your second language you already know those words. It's easier to learn a different language for an idea you already know a way of communicating than it is for a child to comprehend meaning at the same time as learning the word.
And also more simply, they're targeted at children, and not interesting. It would be great if there were easy-reading second language books aimed at adults (in terms of subject matter / story line, and vocabulary as above) - but I suppose it's just too niche, especially for less popular second languages.
Which does make sense for children, in English for example learning as a first language 'and on the dog's log, a cat was sitting gracefully' (mental block for a more basic adverb than 'gracefully' here) might be perfectly natural and simple, but for an adult ESL learner... it's not great. At the point where an adult's learning vocabulary like 'dog', 'log', (which er.. actually I don't know in Hindi) and 'cat', they don't want awkward grammar like past continuous 'was sitting', less common adverb position, subordinate clauses. Better would be 'a cat gracefully sat on the dog's log' grammar, but with more interesting vocabulary. Not because you won't ever say dog or cat, but because by the time you're reading to advance your second language you already know those words. It's easier to learn a different language for an idea you already know a way of communicating than it is for a child to comprehend meaning at the same time as learning the word.
And also more simply, they're targeted at children, and not interesting. It would be great if there were easy-reading second language books aimed at adults (in terms of subject matter / story line, and vocabulary as above) - but I suppose it's just too niche, especially for less popular second languages.
When I lived in Latvia I found it impossible to even hear where words started and stopped for the first few months. Was a humbling experience.
You may be interested in Minimal Pair Testing [0]. The idea is to train you ear to decipher between similar sounds (for example if you wanted to recognize "lock" vs "rock"). I first encountered the idea in Fluent Forever by Gabriel Wyner.
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_pair
[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimal_pair
Is Latvian anything like Russian? I found it impossible to hear the vowels when I was first learning Russian. Even today, И and Ы are difficult for me to differentiate, but I've only been in Russian speaking countries for around three months, so maybe that will come with time.
Latvian and Lithuanian are Baltic languages, which is a language family within Indo-European language family. Among Indo-European language family, Baltic and Slavic languages are the closest (aka Balto-Slavic language family).
It took me about that amount of time of actual study to be able to "lex" spoken Cantonese into phonemes. It's a weird experience that happened nearly overnight -- it went from "incomprehensible wall of sound" to "stream of sounds, with clear start/stops" very quickly.
IIRC the early language acquisition literature supports the idea that exposing a child to the sounds of a language (even without any actual instruction or even requiring the child to pay particular attention to the person speaking) is enough to make it much easier for them to understand and produce that language later in life.
IIRC the early language acquisition literature supports the idea that exposing a child to the sounds of a language (even without any actual instruction or even requiring the child to pay particular attention to the person speaking) is enough to make it much easier for them to understand and produce that language later in life.
My wife's family speak Cantonese at home and I could instantly recognise words. Latvian was far more difficult for me.
How long did that take?
It was complicated quite a bit by the fact I never lived there full time:
- started summer 2013
- kept up the anki thing for about half a year
- spent about 30% of my time there in 2014, 2015, 2016, and 15% of 2017
- regularly had Latvian friends visit since 2018
- started summer 2013
- kept up the anki thing for about half a year
- spent about 30% of my time there in 2014, 2015, 2016, and 15% of 2017
- regularly had Latvian friends visit since 2018
I'm impressed! I'm a native Latvian speaker, and am not used to the idea of foreigners learning the language, let alone someone who doesn't live in Latvia full-time. As speakers of a small, globally unimportant language that's not even mutually intelligible with its only surviving relative, we tend to be very impressed with foreigners that can put even basic sentences together.
> not even mutually intelligible with its only surviving relative
Wikipedia lists four surviving descendants of the Eastern Baltic branch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_languages#Eastern_Balti... : Latvian, Latgalian, Lithuanian and Samogitian. Though apparently Latgalian and Samogitian are frequently considered dialects of Latvian and Lithuanian respectively. So in a way it's tautological that related languages don't have high mutual intelligibility since otherwise they'd likely be considered dialects of the same language.
Wikipedia lists four surviving descendants of the Eastern Baltic branch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_languages#Eastern_Balti... : Latvian, Latgalian, Lithuanian and Samogitian. Though apparently Latgalian and Samogitian are frequently considered dialects of Latvian and Lithuanian respectively. So in a way it's tautological that related languages don't have high mutual intelligibility since otherwise they'd likely be considered dialects of the same language.
It's not necessarily tautological because of how fluid the language/dialect distinction itself is, and often related to politics. The treatment of Latgalian as a Latvian dialect is certainly at least somewhat political, there's a case to be made for it being a different language.
But for a counter-example, take the Scandinavian languages. They're always treated as different languages, even though they're highly mutually intelligible. Then there are the Czech and Slovak languages, extremely similar but not considered dialects.
But for a counter-example, take the Scandinavian languages. They're always treated as different languages, even though they're highly mutually intelligible. Then there are the Czech and Slovak languages, extremely similar but not considered dialects.
Thank you for the kind words.
It's incredible how many doors even basic language skills opened...
It's incredible how many doors even basic language skills opened...
Cheers from Latvia!
Right now is probably the best time in history to learn a language. The sheer amount of resources available to you via the internet compared to the year 2000 is exponentially greater.
The volume of content in your target language available on youtube alone is enough to last you a lifetime. Not to mention all the channels specifically catered to teaching the language. Then the online tutoring marketplaces - you can be directly connected to a tutor from a country that speaks your language natively and remotely schedule 1:1 lessons at your convenience via video conferencing software. Plus the availability of language partner sites to practice if you're on a budget.
The biggest problem in my opinion is people struggling with self directed learning, more than anything. A college level course is likely going to be objectively worse than self directed study with targeted goals, but many people dont have a clear goal of what they're trying to achieve in their target language other than a vague sense of fluency, myself included. If your language goal is to become fluent in a language, that's a goal with no defined end in sight.
The volume of content in your target language available on youtube alone is enough to last you a lifetime. Not to mention all the channels specifically catered to teaching the language. Then the online tutoring marketplaces - you can be directly connected to a tutor from a country that speaks your language natively and remotely schedule 1:1 lessons at your convenience via video conferencing software. Plus the availability of language partner sites to practice if you're on a budget.
The biggest problem in my opinion is people struggling with self directed learning, more than anything. A college level course is likely going to be objectively worse than self directed study with targeted goals, but many people dont have a clear goal of what they're trying to achieve in their target language other than a vague sense of fluency, myself included. If your language goal is to become fluent in a language, that's a goal with no defined end in sight.
> The volume of content in your target language available on youtube alone is enough to last you a lifetime
*if you are an English speaker.
Otherwise you have to do an extra hop.
native -> English -> target
but I agree it's still the best time in history to learn a language.
*if you are an English speaker.
Otherwise you have to do an extra hop.
native -> English -> target
but I agree it's still the best time in history to learn a language.
He's talking about the volume of native content in the target language, it's independent from your base language.
>The volume of content in your target language available on youtube alone is enough to last you a lifetime.
Not if your target language is danish. Danish YouTube somehow never evolved beyond clickbaity reaction videos and Minecraft letsplays. There are good danish YouTubers[1][2], but they present their material in english. Your best bet for danish content that won't cause acute brain rot, is probably music and film clips, or VPN'ing your way to the danish state broadcaster www.dr.dk. It's like BBC, but with more rødgrød.
Such as (no affiliation): [1]https://www.youtube.com/user/brainiac75 [2]https://www.youtube.com/user/SirNetrom1
Not if your target language is danish. Danish YouTube somehow never evolved beyond clickbaity reaction videos and Minecraft letsplays. There are good danish YouTubers[1][2], but they present their material in english. Your best bet for danish content that won't cause acute brain rot, is probably music and film clips, or VPN'ing your way to the danish state broadcaster www.dr.dk. It's like BBC, but with more rødgrød.
Such as (no affiliation): [1]https://www.youtube.com/user/brainiac75 [2]https://www.youtube.com/user/SirNetrom1
> The biggest problem in my opinion is people struggling with self directed learning, more than anything.
> many people dont have a clear goal of what they're trying to achieve in their target language other than a vague sense of fluency
> If your language goal is to become fluent in a language, that's a goal with no defined end in sight
This is why I like tests that 'proof' the level (e.g. CEFR, HSK, NLPT, and so on) It does not make anyone better and does not really proof that one can converse in the language, but for me as a learner it is a nice goal to have. I can study by myself and know what I am learning for (the test for the next level)
Fluency just comes with it imo and needs immersion and practise anyway. Practise would mean application of the things learnt before
> many people dont have a clear goal of what they're trying to achieve in their target language other than a vague sense of fluency
> If your language goal is to become fluent in a language, that's a goal with no defined end in sight
This is why I like tests that 'proof' the level (e.g. CEFR, HSK, NLPT, and so on) It does not make anyone better and does not really proof that one can converse in the language, but for me as a learner it is a nice goal to have. I can study by myself and know what I am learning for (the test for the next level)
Fluency just comes with it imo and needs immersion and practise anyway. Practise would mean application of the things learnt before
My understanding is that these methods work well, when the learner has already reached at least a basic level of fluency in the target foreign language. But what about those just beginning the journey as well as those who have already started and still are moving toward that basic level goal? I assume that traditional approaches (textbooks, courses, sprinkled with some live conversations with native speakers and watching some movies/TV) remain the right ones. If so, I'm curious about what, if any, might be the optimal strategy for achieving that goal, in other words, what is the approximately optimal ratio between efforts using relevant methods (say, 50% textbook, 30% course X, 10% live conversations, 10% watching movies) and whether such strategy's ratio depends on specifics of the target language (say, Spanish vs. Chinese).
I do daily 30-60 minute conversations with native Brazilian speakers on Italki. That can add up in price quickly, but I would recommend at least 1-2 lessons per week to start after getting the basics down on something like Duolingo/Rosetta Stone. It was a world of difference between year 1 only using Duolingo/YouTube etc. and actually having Brazilian teachers correct my grammar, pronunciation, and add vocabulary for very context-specific situations that came up in conversations. Not to mention slang, idioms, etc.
I see. Thank you for your prompt comment. Just one clarification ... When you are saying "getting the basics down on something like Duolingo/Rosetta Stone", do you mean that "basics" here includes all levels (as far as I know, solid courses like Rosetta Stone or Fluenz - as opposed to Duolingo and similar apps - have multiple levels, where higher levels are pretty advanced) or you are talking about first 1-2 levels?
Duolinguo is a poor substitute for human interaction. It's a good tool to support other methods, but it encourages pattern matching rather than actual memorisation and there simply isn't enough variety in the examples to help you with translating unseen phrases. It's also not sufficient for speaking practice, but at least you can hear the text-to-speech.
There are some positives. The community is very active and helpful. They've done a lot better with the lessons. Japanese, for example, is much improved. It used to be that you'd get exercises in hiragana with no context at all.
I agree with the other post, you'll get much more out of a two hour class once a week than doing ten minutes of duolinguo a day. The claim that x hours is equivalent to a university semester is nonsense.
Your question was about optimality. It doesn't take much classroom time to get good - maybe two or three courses? (say 60 hours to A2/B1) That gets you enough of a baseline that you can start watching TV, reading papers. For example in our B1 lessons for Spanish, we'd actually read El País as an exercise.
There are some positives. The community is very active and helpful. They've done a lot better with the lessons. Japanese, for example, is much improved. It used to be that you'd get exercises in hiragana with no context at all.
I agree with the other post, you'll get much more out of a two hour class once a week than doing ten minutes of duolinguo a day. The claim that x hours is equivalent to a university semester is nonsense.
Your question was about optimality. It doesn't take much classroom time to get good - maybe two or three courses? (say 60 hours to A2/B1) That gets you enough of a baseline that you can start watching TV, reading papers. For example in our B1 lessons for Spanish, we'd actually read El País as an exercise.
Understood. I appreciate you sharing your insights. What course(s) did you use for Spanish? Any thoughts on Fluenz?
I ran through the Michel Thomas 8 hour audio course, then 3 semesters of evening class at my university (run by the language dept). That was about 60 hours of class time, 2 hours a week. By the end I would have been comfortable going for B1 with a bit of study. In terms of course level I finished up working on B2 level material. If I was doing it again I'd look at the Instituto Cervantes. I had access to grad student pricing, but even so it cost about 200 a semester.
At the time I was also dating a native speaker and we would watch Spanish TV with English subs as well as English TV with Spanish subs. I still have a lot of friends who are native Spanish speakers which helps.
No idea about Fluenz, sorry. One of my friends used Lingoda for German and seemed to have a decent time with it. They also do language marathons where you get a significant discount if you do daily lessons, but it's easy to miss one and then you don't get a refund.
At the time I was also dating a native speaker and we would watch Spanish TV with English subs as well as English TV with Spanish subs. I still have a lot of friends who are native Spanish speakers which helps.
No idea about Fluenz, sorry. One of my friends used Lingoda for German and seemed to have a decent time with it. They also do language marathons where you get a significant discount if you do daily lessons, but it's easy to miss one and then you don't get a refund.
Thank you so much for sharing very interesting and useful details. ¡Muchas gracias! :-)
I think the takeaway is that classes sometimes don't feel that useful at the time - I would often be doing homework the night before, or on the train, but it made a massive difference speaking to people regularly. The main benefit is it offers a structure that's difficult to get if you talk to strangers or even friends, or if you buy a textbook.
Professional (and experienced) teachers are careful to not use vocabulary that's beyond your level, but at the same time a good class will be taught solely in the target language. In that sense I would seriously look at Lingoda if you can't attend evening classes. You get structured lessons with real people with very flexible scheduling. I don't know what qualifications the teachers are required to have though, and it's important as a beginner that you have people who know how to teach (and aren't just regurgitating the material).
For Spanish, Instituto Cervantes (similarly for German you have the Goethe Institute) is the de facto international language school and you can mostly guarantee the teachers will be good.
Professional (and experienced) teachers are careful to not use vocabulary that's beyond your level, but at the same time a good class will be taught solely in the target language. In that sense I would seriously look at Lingoda if you can't attend evening classes. You get structured lessons with real people with very flexible scheduling. I don't know what qualifications the teachers are required to have though, and it's important as a beginner that you have people who know how to teach (and aren't just regurgitating the material).
For Spanish, Instituto Cervantes (similarly for German you have the Goethe Institute) is the de facto international language school and you can mostly guarantee the teachers will be good.
Much appreciate your feedback, which is very helpful. I agree with you on balancing structural benefits of classes with vocabulary and other benefits of conversational practice with native speakers. I haven't heard of Lingoda before - will definitely check it out and keep it in mind.
So I went through the whole Duolingo tree for Portuguese and thought it was high quality and got me good a foundation. As others noted, there is no substitute for actual conversation/interaction with native speakers, and I wish I started that sooner. I also second the recommendation of using something like Anki or Quizlet for vocabulary practice. I only noted that it's good to have a base before starting with professional teachers because if you're budget isn't unlimited, you might not get the bang for your buck having teachers walk you through the most basic stuff like hello/how are you/how much does that cost/etc. that you can get with Duoloingo/Rosetta Stone or similar programs. But if you want to start off with Italki and lessons on day 1 with native speakers, it certainly won't hurt!
Got it. Very much appreciate your additional thoughtful insights.
Duolingo works very well as an introduction so you can get a taste of a language.
There's no point doing higher levels on duolingo - if you actually want to learn a language to conversational level and beyond then proceed directly to memorising vocabulary with spaced repetition software such as Anki. It is much more effective.
The person who might benefit from higher levels on duolingo is the traveller who does not aim for conversational level but wants to pick up enough words to get by.
There's no point doing higher levels on duolingo - if you actually want to learn a language to conversational level and beyond then proceed directly to memorising vocabulary with spaced repetition software such as Anki. It is much more effective.
The person who might benefit from higher levels on duolingo is the traveller who does not aim for conversational level but wants to pick up enough words to get by.
I see. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
My strategy for Latvian was roughly as follows:
- Go mad because you don't understand a word of what's happening around you for the first time in your life.
- Decide to do something about it.
- Take a three week university summer introductory course. Erasmus courses area great idea.
- Always actively speak the language when in native company.
- Pick up at least the basics from news broadcasts.
- Read childrens' books and written press.
- Study five common new words a day from my actual use (speaking, listening, reading) using a spaced repetition algorithm. The article mentions ankiweb. It's stellar. Picking from your own use tailors to your needs and interests. It also makes finding example phrases easier.
That worked rather well for me getting to CEFR[0] C1 in Latvian.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_R...
- Go mad because you don't understand a word of what's happening around you for the first time in your life.
- Decide to do something about it.
- Take a three week university summer introductory course. Erasmus courses area great idea.
- Always actively speak the language when in native company.
- Pick up at least the basics from news broadcasts.
- Read childrens' books and written press.
- Study five common new words a day from my actual use (speaking, listening, reading) using a spaced repetition algorithm. The article mentions ankiweb. It's stellar. Picking from your own use tailors to your needs and interests. It also makes finding example phrases easier.
That worked rather well for me getting to CEFR[0] C1 in Latvian.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_R...
Sounds like you lived in lativa just ensuring a ready supply of real life encounters as everyone speaks that first. Where I live English is dominant and even the significant Spanish speaking (Mexican) population sees me and switches to English, which they know better than my Spanish... My other target language isn't spoken in my community, but I plan on traveling to where it is spoken sometime in the future.
Understood, thank you. So, essentially, you have used the language immersion approach, on top of a light introductory course, enriched by regular vocabulary building. Sounds reasonable to me.
A lot of very productive learners and teachers are advocating for learning through all-talk, all-target language, in-person language exchange sessions, and complimenting that with pleasure reading in the target language. So 0% textbook, and if a course, a course that as closely as possible imitates a group conversation.
So 100% live conversation, with a rising percentage of reading material after achieving some small degree of fluency.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Xj3rGu1T0
I know it's not a great suggestion during the time of covid. I wonder if the online language exchange apps provide for different forms of interaction? The ability to show a picture or flip through a magazine or picture-book simultaneously with mouse pointer visibility on both sides would be nice.
So 100% live conversation, with a rising percentage of reading material after achieving some small degree of fluency.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Xj3rGu1T0
I know it's not a great suggestion during the time of covid. I wonder if the online language exchange apps provide for different forms of interaction? The ability to show a picture or flip through a magazine or picture-book simultaneously with mouse pointer visibility on both sides would be nice.
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and info. Being multi-lingual myself, I certainly understand the concept of language immersion (and, actually, most recently have tried it partially with Mandarin, in the form of watching Chinese movies, mostly with subtitles). However, I doubt that it is possible to learn correct grammar from language immersion (it's probably not that important for languages like Mandarin, which, as I understand, are very lightweight in terms of grammar; but, for the rest ...).
Don't forget all Eutopean countires have freely available public broadcasting (similar to NPR or BBC) whose websites have news articles, radio and TV. Usually the news is all free but sometimes you need a VPN for other stuff (if you're ethically oksy with that.) The more casual input you get,the faster it will go.
Also a fun thing to to is read the Bible in multiple languages since it is translated into nearly everything and has free high quality audiobooksnfor everything but this can sometimes teach you arcane grammar and useless vocab but I find it useful anyway since you get side by sife comparison and can read along and have a massive corpus which probably infpunced the modern culture a lot. Try reading a language you just learned next to the next one you're learning, skipping your mother tongue.
Also a fun thing to to is read the Bible in multiple languages since it is translated into nearly everything and has free high quality audiobooksnfor everything but this can sometimes teach you arcane grammar and useless vocab but I find it useful anyway since you get side by sife comparison and can read along and have a massive corpus which probably infpunced the modern culture a lot. Try reading a language you just learned next to the next one you're learning, skipping your mother tongue.
There is no mention of grammar here.
I’m not sure how it is in the US, but in the UK we don’t even get taught the grammar of English. No one knows grammatical terms, like preposition, person, the name of tenses, the subjunctive, or even simple ones like verbs, adjective, adverbs and nouns.
When you don’t even know formally how your own language is structured, it is very difficult to learn another language.
For example, my mother (native French-speaker) gives private French lessons. She finds that instead of saying “ok today we’re going to learn about the subjunctive mood, the root is the third person plural of the indicative mood of the verb with the following endings”, she spends most of her time having to explain what those terms mean.
I realise that there may be other ways that are less formal to learn languages, but at the end of the day, grammars follow rules, and if you don’t even understand the rule book in your own language you’re already at a huge disadvantage in my opinion.
All these online articles claiming “don’t worry about grammar, that will come later” are missing out on what I think is the most important tool in language learning.
I’m not sure how it is in the US, but in the UK we don’t even get taught the grammar of English. No one knows grammatical terms, like preposition, person, the name of tenses, the subjunctive, or even simple ones like verbs, adjective, adverbs and nouns.
When you don’t even know formally how your own language is structured, it is very difficult to learn another language.
For example, my mother (native French-speaker) gives private French lessons. She finds that instead of saying “ok today we’re going to learn about the subjunctive mood, the root is the third person plural of the indicative mood of the verb with the following endings”, she spends most of her time having to explain what those terms mean.
I realise that there may be other ways that are less formal to learn languages, but at the end of the day, grammars follow rules, and if you don’t even understand the rule book in your own language you’re already at a huge disadvantage in my opinion.
All these online articles claiming “don’t worry about grammar, that will come later” are missing out on what I think is the most important tool in language learning.
I'm in the UK. My son is 11 and has definitively been taught grammatical terms. I know, because I've been forced to "relearn" to be able to help with homework.
It may well differ between schools, though.
Though having learned French from two very different teachers, I'll say I'm not at all convinced that focusing on the grammar is helpful until people have reached a relatively advanced level.
My first teacher was very formal and went through the grammar in detail from the start. My second, in an intensive course at university, focused on immersion instead - she started speaking French to us almost exclusively from the very first lesson (which included people who had never had French before), and the focus was on speaking, with an insistence that everyone in class participated every lesson. The second course brought those who had never spoken French previously to a conversational level much faster.
It may well differ between schools, though.
Though having learned French from two very different teachers, I'll say I'm not at all convinced that focusing on the grammar is helpful until people have reached a relatively advanced level.
My first teacher was very formal and went through the grammar in detail from the start. My second, in an intensive course at university, focused on immersion instead - she started speaking French to us almost exclusively from the very first lesson (which included people who had never had French before), and the focus was on speaking, with an insistence that everyone in class participated every lesson. The second course brought those who had never spoken French previously to a conversational level much faster.
I had both experiences and found neither valuable. I am in awe of anybody who can learn a foreign language full-stop.
My French teacher fully explained the grammar most of which passed me by since, certainly in my case, one doesn't really rationalise their own language in terms of technicalities.
My German teacher just pitched up on day one and spoke nothing but German. Two years later I was absolutely none the wiser. I could quite honestly have been listening to white noise.
That anybody "picks up" a language is something I am amazed by.
My French teacher fully explained the grammar most of which passed me by since, certainly in my case, one doesn't really rationalise their own language in terms of technicalities.
My German teacher just pitched up on day one and spoke nothing but German. Two years later I was absolutely none the wiser. I could quite honestly have been listening to white noise.
That anybody "picks up" a language is something I am amazed by.
Immersion requires you to speak, not just listen, and that was key with my second French teacher. Everyone spoke words, and soon sentences in French from day one, even if at first it was badly broken and little more than parroting things back. She kept track - nobody got away without participating. Every lesson. Towards the end of a year of that we went to Paris for a week and spent 5-6 hours every day going out and stopping strangers to have conversations with them about various subjects.
The structure meant both that we were forced to try and that the teacher knew at any point how we were doing.
The structure meant both that we were forced to try and that the teacher knew at any point how we were doing.
> the teacher knew at any point how we were doing
She is an exceptional teacher. If only every teacher were that good, that dedicated.
She is an exceptional teacher. If only every teacher were that good, that dedicated.
I would strongly disagree. My personal language learning experience so far has been immersion as the only way to go. Constantly hearing and reading a new language will teach you that language. Learning the grammar is basically useless because when talking or writing the end goal is not to think about it anyway. Maybe a bit of a controversial statement but I think learning grammar in a formal language learning setting is a relict of the past and mainly exists to assert the reasoning behind formal learning itself.
I would strongly disagree with that. Your supposed dichotomy between immersion and grammar is just not the case. You both learn by immersion and also have a look at the grammar. Just hearing and reading will leave gaps in your understanding and have you build weird habits. You trying to paint it as an "either or" is a relic of the past.
But you almost certainly have gaps and misunderstandings in your native language too. I’ve learnt more than one language, almost entirely through immersion, and my grammar is pretty good. But I’d say if you want to do it well, you have to ask people questions. I was primarily talking to colleagues and friends while working overseas, and I’d say things wrong all the time, and get corrected, and ask questions constantly when I didn’t understand something. The real issue people have with immersion is that you have to be prepared to make a fool of yourself all day, every day, for quite a long time before you really start to get the hang of it.
The really significant upside that I think people tend to gloss over is that my pronunciation is pretty much perfect, because I’d learn to say things by just repeating what I’d heard. On the phone people can’t tell I’m not a native speaker.
The really significant upside that I think people tend to gloss over is that my pronunciation is pretty much perfect, because I’d learn to say things by just repeating what I’d heard. On the phone people can’t tell I’m not a native speaker.
I’m in the immersion camp, but give me a table of Spanish conjugations and it’s a million times better than having to figure it out one word at a time.
Additionally, for really foreign languages (e.g. English vs Chinese) knowing in what order to place words and whether words are needed at all is of great help.
Both parts are needed.
Additionally, for really foreign languages (e.g. English vs Chinese) knowing in what order to place words and whether words are needed at all is of great help.
Both parts are needed.
I disagree. It is going to take longer in immersion without grammar than with grammar. Knowing grammar helps you know what to expect and helps you form your sentences because you know what sort of things to put next. It lets you pick up on these things way faster, and the faster you know these things, the sooner you make habits of it.
It isn't like you think about grammar forever.
And by the way: I had formal language training, for adults. Immersive, even: I am in the target country, spent 15 hours a week in class with other immigrants, and was taught by a native speaker. Most of the learning was introducing new word groups and practicing speaking and listening. A little bit was grammar, though, for specifically the reason I listed.
It isn't like you think about grammar forever.
And by the way: I had formal language training, for adults. Immersive, even: I am in the target country, spent 15 hours a week in class with other immigrants, and was taught by a native speaker. Most of the learning was introducing new word groups and practicing speaking and listening. A little bit was grammar, though, for specifically the reason I listed.
I think you really want both. My english only became good through immersion, but high school providing the grammar base was immensely helpful to learn it properly.
I strongly disagree. Grammar is a great tool for an instructor to organize their teaching, but a terrible way for students to think about language. Yeah, to read or speak you need to internalize those rules, but you don't really need to put a particular technical name on them, or think directly about them.
I think the step from "slowly doing grammar while I try to understand" to "I'm so good at grammar that I just understand" doesn't work that way.
I was taught English from 6 to 18 in a very traditional, strict, grammar-driven way and learned nothing. All spaniards go through the same type of lessons and very few can understand anything at all after years.
At 18 I stopped any classes or studying but I got satellite TV, English computing magazines and shortly afterwards the Internet and then just learned all the English I needed to get by without much conscious effort.
A few years ago I got interested in Danish and in about 4 months I could read regular novels at a decent pace just from Duolingo, newspapers and subtitled TV series. I probably could do the same with any language just with enough motivation.
I think the step from "slowly doing grammar while I try to understand" to "I'm so good at grammar that I just understand" doesn't work that way.
I was taught English from 6 to 18 in a very traditional, strict, grammar-driven way and learned nothing. All spaniards go through the same type of lessons and very few can understand anything at all after years.
At 18 I stopped any classes or studying but I got satellite TV, English computing magazines and shortly afterwards the Internet and then just learned all the English I needed to get by without much conscious effort.
A few years ago I got interested in Danish and in about 4 months I could read regular novels at a decent pace just from Duolingo, newspapers and subtitled TV series. I probably could do the same with any language just with enough motivation.
Playing devils advocate, if you were able to learn your native language with out an understanding of the grammar, why can't you learn a foreign language?
I was forced to choose a third foreign language back in school. I ended up with Latin (bad idea btw, completely useless), so I had my usual German lessons (native language), English lessons (since 5th grade) and Latin (6th grade).
When you constantly switch between those languages in terms of grammar, you realize how different those languages are. I didn't realize that in the beginning and I still have a habit of translating sayings from German into English that just don't make any actual sense.
If you really want to learn a language, you need to learn the grammar, even if it isn't any fun.
When you constantly switch between those languages in terms of grammar, you realize how different those languages are. I didn't realize that in the beginning and I still have a habit of translating sayings from German into English that just don't make any actual sense.
If you really want to learn a language, you need to learn the grammar, even if it isn't any fun.
I'd love to learn Latin <3
The usual explanation is that younger people, especially small children, can pick up languages without explicit knowledge of the grammar better than older people can. There's some controversy about whether there is a narrow age range after which it becomes difficult or impossible to acquire native-level proficiency through immersion or whether the decline in that ability is gradual [0]. But there's a pretty strong consensus that there is a decline for almost everyone.
While adults can learn second languages, very few can just pick up the grammar as they did with their native languages as children. For most adults, if we want to learn how to speak and write a second language with reasonable accuracy, we have to study the grammar explicitly. Practicing in immersive situations also helps a lot, of course.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period_hypothesis
While adults can learn second languages, very few can just pick up the grammar as they did with their native languages as children. For most adults, if we want to learn how to speak and write a second language with reasonable accuracy, we have to study the grammar explicitly. Practicing in immersive situations also helps a lot, of course.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period_hypothesis
You can! But it’s not necessarily the most efficient way if you already have a native language to build on. It takes children years of full immersion to reach that point.
> takes children years of full immersion
Perhaps it depends on the language you start with and the one you learn but small children seem to pick things up very rapidly by immersion.
It took each of my children roughly six months to learn Norwegian from the age of three when they went to kindergarten. We kept them at home until then to make sure that they would be fluent in English, then sent them to kindergarten where they learned Norwegian without any formal lessons at all, and within a year they were indistinguishable from the natives.
Perhaps it depends on the language you start with and the one you learn but small children seem to pick things up very rapidly by immersion.
It took each of my children roughly six months to learn Norwegian from the age of three when they went to kindergarten. We kept them at home until then to make sure that they would be fluent in English, then sent them to kindergarten where they learned Norwegian without any formal lessons at all, and within a year they were indistinguishable from the natives.
> but in the UK we don’t even get taught the grammar of English. No one knows grammatical terms, like preposition, person, the name of tenses, the subjunctive, or even simple ones like verbs, adjective, adverbs and nouns.
This just isn't true. It might have been true for you, but it isn't true 'in the UK', and most likely you've just forgotten because it wasn't and hasn't been important to you; it's on the national curriculum.
> When you don’t even know formally how your own language is structured, it is very difficult to learn another language.
Absolutely agree with that, and it's worth learning more and revising what you were taught when at school in the UK if you choose to learn another language.
It's also (one reason) why 'Latin is useless' is bollocks. Latin has a more 'complete' grammar than (modern) English, by which I mean that it has more cases, conjugations, etc. that are productive, and which take differing forms. It can be difficult to get your head around two different constructions in a language being learnt if both take the same form in English; they probably don't in Latin.
I've never learnt Latin formally, but I've tried to pick a tiny bit up, and I tend to look to Latin grammar and resources rather than English in my pursuit of Hindi.
This just isn't true. It might have been true for you, but it isn't true 'in the UK', and most likely you've just forgotten because it wasn't and hasn't been important to you; it's on the national curriculum.
> When you don’t even know formally how your own language is structured, it is very difficult to learn another language.
Absolutely agree with that, and it's worth learning more and revising what you were taught when at school in the UK if you choose to learn another language.
It's also (one reason) why 'Latin is useless' is bollocks. Latin has a more 'complete' grammar than (modern) English, by which I mean that it has more cases, conjugations, etc. that are productive, and which take differing forms. It can be difficult to get your head around two different constructions in a language being learnt if both take the same form in English; they probably don't in Latin.
I've never learnt Latin formally, but I've tried to pick a tiny bit up, and I tend to look to Latin grammar and resources rather than English in my pursuit of Hindi.
OK I was being over-the-top with that part, yes, I remember being taught about verbs, adjectives, nouns and adverbs.
But the rest? I don't remember them being taught them at all. I went to school in Northern Ireland starting in 1999, I thought the "national curriculum" covered all of the UK but it turns out NI has its own so that may have something to do with it.
I'm an avid amateur linguist so perhaps I'm letting my own perceptions of what is important colour what I think should be important to other people.
But the rest? I don't remember them being taught them at all. I went to school in Northern Ireland starting in 1999, I thought the "national curriculum" covered all of the UK but it turns out NI has its own so that may have something to do with it.
I'm an avid amateur linguist so perhaps I'm letting my own perceptions of what is important colour what I think should be important to other people.
> No one knows grammatical terms, like preposition, person, the name of tenses, the subjunctive, or even simple ones like verbs, adjective, adverbs and nouns.
In England, most of these basic concepts are introduced in primary school. These terms are introduced in Year 2 (age 6-7): noun, noun phrase, statement, question, exclamation, command, compound, suffix, adjective, adverb, verb, tense (past, present), apostrophe, comma[1, p66].
How much grammar is taught has changed -- it's more now than it was in the 1990s or 2000s -- but certainly "simple ones like verbs, adjective, adverbs and nouns" have always been taught.
Children who paid no attention in English lessons should get a second opportunity to learn in modern language lessons (e.g. French).
A Danish language school I attended filtered people into "professional" and "non-professional" groups. The "professional" group saved time by assuming students understood "the subjunctive mood…" etc.
[1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
In England, most of these basic concepts are introduced in primary school. These terms are introduced in Year 2 (age 6-7): noun, noun phrase, statement, question, exclamation, command, compound, suffix, adjective, adverb, verb, tense (past, present), apostrophe, comma[1, p66].
How much grammar is taught has changed -- it's more now than it was in the 1990s or 2000s -- but certainly "simple ones like verbs, adjective, adverbs and nouns" have always been taught.
Children who paid no attention in English lessons should get a second opportunity to learn in modern language lessons (e.g. French).
A Danish language school I attended filtered people into "professional" and "non-professional" groups. The "professional" group saved time by assuming students understood "the subjunctive mood…" etc.
[1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
I have friends that make one or more grammatical mistakes in virtually every sentence they utter in English, and have very few problems expressing any thought in a way that is quickly understood (often at fairly high-level jobs.) Plenty of those people have English as their first language.
As you've communicated, a major difference between native speakers and non-native speakers is that native speakers usually don't know or care about the grammar of the language they speak. They learn it through a series of dopamine hits they get from successfully understanding or being understood. If people who regularly and naturally use the subjunctive don't know the word "subjunctive" and can barely understand or repeat an explanation given of it, how important could it be to fluency?
As you've communicated, a major difference between native speakers and non-native speakers is that native speakers usually don't know or care about the grammar of the language they speak. They learn it through a series of dopamine hits they get from successfully understanding or being understood. If people who regularly and naturally use the subjunctive don't know the word "subjunctive" and can barely understand or repeat an explanation given of it, how important could it be to fluency?
Same here. I went to a fairly good state school and never received any English grammar but got some French grammar. The French language teaching was terrible - hours and hours of memorising irregular verbs. I passed all the exams but still can't speak the language.
I have taught myself Swedish listening to Sveriges Radio, reading and translating news articles and following a series of short Swedish lessons on youtube. I pick up grammar as I go along rather than learn it formally. I don't use flash cards, duolingo or rote memorisation. The key thing is to read, write, listen and pronounce - form sentences and use the language rather than work on memorising vocabulary (that comes naturally).
I have taught myself Swedish listening to Sveriges Radio, reading and translating news articles and following a series of short Swedish lessons on youtube. I pick up grammar as I go along rather than learn it formally. I don't use flash cards, duolingo or rote memorisation. The key thing is to read, write, listen and pronounce - form sentences and use the language rather than work on memorising vocabulary (that comes naturally).
Swedish (+Danish, Norwegian) grammar is as close as it could be to English grammar. Many of the differences are because English changed -- order the words like Shakespeare and you are most of the way there.
What works for Swedish might not work for many other languages.
What works for Swedish might not work for many other languages.
I really really strongly disagree. I'll admit it's a personal thing - I know of some people who can only learn a language by memorizing all of its rules (typically people who have gone through their education based on rote memorisation as well), but I have yet to see a 5 year old who knows anything of the 'formal' rules of the grammar of their language, yet getting to the level of a 5 year old native is already a huge accomplishment for most people who only learn a second language when they are an adult.
I think most people would be best served learning a language by not learning about any grammar 'rules' at all (maybe some simplified rules of thumb here and there for illustration and anchoring of skills - I'm not saying everyone should have to build their own grammar mental models from scratch through osmosis, but they should be introduced after a basic level of competence with the construct, not up front). As is remarked above - I'm sure this is a convenient way of teaching, because you can just tick off boxes of discrete 'components' ('does my student know the rules to conjugate in this and this past tense? check!), but there is a weak correlation to actually being able to use the language.
I learned most of my language skills in both English and French by listening to rap music, transcribing it, translating into Dutch (my native language), repeating it and mimicking pronunciation etc. If anything, having to learn the grammar rules made the actual language acquisition harder. My best French teacher was one who, after asking in desperation 'how can I get you boys to be interested in learning French?' and me (mockingly) suggesting we analyse some MC Solaar CD's, then actually went out and got some of those, and contacted her Parisien neice to give us some of the backstory on the slang used in them, too.
Then again, I'm bitter about many of the traditional teaching methods and I have no proof my anecdote scales to the general population, so my opinion is worth about as much as... well, something that's pretty worthless I guess...
I think most people would be best served learning a language by not learning about any grammar 'rules' at all (maybe some simplified rules of thumb here and there for illustration and anchoring of skills - I'm not saying everyone should have to build their own grammar mental models from scratch through osmosis, but they should be introduced after a basic level of competence with the construct, not up front). As is remarked above - I'm sure this is a convenient way of teaching, because you can just tick off boxes of discrete 'components' ('does my student know the rules to conjugate in this and this past tense? check!), but there is a weak correlation to actually being able to use the language.
I learned most of my language skills in both English and French by listening to rap music, transcribing it, translating into Dutch (my native language), repeating it and mimicking pronunciation etc. If anything, having to learn the grammar rules made the actual language acquisition harder. My best French teacher was one who, after asking in desperation 'how can I get you boys to be interested in learning French?' and me (mockingly) suggesting we analyse some MC Solaar CD's, then actually went out and got some of those, and contacted her Parisien neice to give us some of the backstory on the slang used in them, too.
Then again, I'm bitter about many of the traditional teaching methods and I have no proof my anecdote scales to the general population, so my opinion is worth about as much as... well, something that's pretty worthless I guess...
Same experience, same outcome.
"They" attempted to teach me both French and German and in both cases I quite literally had no idea what was going on. A* pupil in English and English Literature.
I am sure it is different today but certainly in the '80s and into the '90s you could arrive in senior school with perfect English and no idea why.
The shocker for me was that I'd spent my whole short life up until that point just correctly intuiting all of the weird grammar modifications and then suddenly I couldn't. Any attempt to explain went right over my head as the framework to explain them was just missing.
"They" attempted to teach me both French and German and in both cases I quite literally had no idea what was going on. A* pupil in English and English Literature.
I am sure it is different today but certainly in the '80s and into the '90s you could arrive in senior school with perfect English and no idea why.
The shocker for me was that I'd spent my whole short life up until that point just correctly intuiting all of the weird grammar modifications and then suddenly I couldn't. Any attempt to explain went right over my head as the framework to explain them was just missing.
> but in the UK we don’t even get taught the grammar of English
This is interesting because in India schools do teach grammar and grammatical terms. I thought they copied it from the UK school system. May be UK used to teach grammar before 1947 (when India got independence) and then they stopped teaching it.
This is interesting because in India schools do teach grammar and grammatical terms. I thought they copied it from the UK school system. May be UK used to teach grammar before 1947 (when India got independence) and then they stopped teaching it.
The problem is it's a nonsense. We 100% do get taught grammatical terms in the UK, but GP has just forgotten them/wasn't paying attention in school.
Or they are old enough to have had exactly the experience they describe. I am 64 and was never taught any formal grammar in primary school except in French lessons and then in Latin from 1st form to 4th form. We were taught English usage by example and expected to write essays in good English but we never analysed sentences to mark verbs and nouns, etc.
I'd be very surprised if some grammar wasn't taught at all. Formal writing in the UK would be in an absolute state of disarray if this were true.
The US teaches most terms. It's pretty important to know what prepositions are, and how adjectives and adverbs differ. Lots of more complex topics do come up, but kids don't listen. It's not immediately applicable to their life so it goes in one ear and out the other. Plenty of people say also schools need to teach how to balance a checkbook and teach some basic finance. They do--but kids aren't paying attention, because no 5th grader should be out there balancing checkbooks for quite a few years, and no kid really cares what a "preposition" is either until they're learning another language or trying to improve their writing and suddenly need to dig back into those memory banks.
But people who say to not study grammar usually don't make progress. What's worse is some people say "don't worry. Our language has no grammar." Every language has some basic rules to learn. The problem is some textbooks heavily front load some formal grammar because a lot of adult learning materials are focused on business usage, and they come with the implication that somehow a person is going to go from zero to handling diplomatic meetings in a month.
Japanese textbooks are notoriously bad for emphasizing very formal speech (sometimes even excessively formal speech) before delving into more casual stuff that people will use 90% of the time. Then you meet a person and the grammar you've studied doesn't align with most of what's immediately practical, and it's easy to conclude it "doesn't matter".
The US teaches most terms. It's pretty important to know what prepositions are, and how adjectives and adverbs differ. Lots of more complex topics do come up, but kids don't listen. It's not immediately applicable to their life so it goes in one ear and out the other. Plenty of people say also schools need to teach how to balance a checkbook and teach some basic finance. They do--but kids aren't paying attention, because no 5th grader should be out there balancing checkbooks for quite a few years, and no kid really cares what a "preposition" is either until they're learning another language or trying to improve their writing and suddenly need to dig back into those memory banks.
But people who say to not study grammar usually don't make progress. What's worse is some people say "don't worry. Our language has no grammar." Every language has some basic rules to learn. The problem is some textbooks heavily front load some formal grammar because a lot of adult learning materials are focused on business usage, and they come with the implication that somehow a person is going to go from zero to handling diplomatic meetings in a month.
Japanese textbooks are notoriously bad for emphasizing very formal speech (sometimes even excessively formal speech) before delving into more casual stuff that people will use 90% of the time. Then you meet a person and the grammar you've studied doesn't align with most of what's immediately practical, and it's easy to conclude it "doesn't matter".
> I'd be very surprised if some grammar wasn't taught at all. Formal writing in the UK would be in an absolute state of disarray if this were true.
Oh, everyone in school will have been taught concepts like past tense and pluralisation.
But often you can apply concepts just fine without having memorised the precise technical term for that concept. You can write just fine without understanding sentence diagrams, as surely as you can lift a box without understanding free body force diagrams.
Oh, everyone in school will have been taught concepts like past tense and pluralisation.
But often you can apply concepts just fine without having memorised the precise technical term for that concept. You can write just fine without understanding sentence diagrams, as surely as you can lift a box without understanding free body force diagrams.
Someone I follow on Twitter has found a very good sweet spot for improving her second/nth language: she follows online courses in her field (art and design) in her target language.
In her case, the target language is Spanish, so she does courses from Domestika: https://www.domestika.org/
In her case, the target language is Spanish, so she does courses from Domestika: https://www.domestika.org/
I can speak a couple of languages that I don't use very often, I personally just make sure I watch a movie/tv show/the news (the news is the least helpful tbh) in those languages once or twice a week. The article suggests Netflix, but if you're not dealing with one of the more common languages, I've found that a lot of countries have their own streaming services you can use.
I find news helpful for weak languages: read strong languages first, and then there's already known context for the major stories when approaching the weak languages.
The languages I speak have pretty big differences between the formal and the actually spoken language, so watching the news in them has never been that helpful, because I pretty much never need to speak the language spoken by newscasters. My problem is also just that I need to keep up my exposure to the language so that I don’t forget, which requires a bit less effort than the OP went to.
Another approach that can be interesting for advanced learners, i.e. you have taken classes for a couple of years[+] and are living in the target language country:
If you've enjoyed a non-fiction book in English, for example, pick up the equivalent translation in your target language. It lets you compare and contrast; and the experience can also be richer.
This definitely requires good discipline, but it is rewarding :-)
[+] using the reference "B2" or "C1" from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_R...
If you've enjoyed a non-fiction book in English, for example, pick up the equivalent translation in your target language. It lets you compare and contrast; and the experience can also be richer.
This definitely requires good discipline, but it is rewarding :-)
[+] using the reference "B2" or "C1" from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_R...
I heard that people used to use the Bible for this purpose. I pulled this trick with The Hobbit.
Be wary though, not all translations are created equal, there might be errors or divergences.
I remember the Russian version translated "I will go so far as to send you on this adventure" incorrectly as "I went all this way because of you" or some such. (And a number of other blunders of this sort.)
Also one of the Stephenson's Baroque Cycle books had "men-of-war" translated to Czech as literally "warriors".
It's a good approach overall though.
Be wary though, not all translations are created equal, there might be errors or divergences.
I remember the Russian version translated "I will go so far as to send you on this adventure" incorrectly as "I went all this way because of you" or some such. (And a number of other blunders of this sort.)
Also one of the Stephenson's Baroque Cycle books had "men-of-war" translated to Czech as literally "warriors".
It's a good approach overall though.
The Bible is commonly used because some Christians consider it a duty to ensure everyone everyone can read the word of God. That means they need to translate the Bible and make it available to people who often don't have money. If you want to learn one of the languages everyone else is learning (this is different in different parts of the world) there is no problem, but outside of that set of 5 there are few resources and many are bad. You can always count on a reasonable good Bible translation no matter what your target language is though. For the vast majority of languages (which are rare languages only used by a small number of people) the Bible is the only option.
Also, for Christians, the exact wording of the Bible is critically important. Well-used translations for any significant language will be scrupulous. The problem is the language used will be archaic, because changing the wording is a big deal.
Nowadays, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone should be a good option, with about 78 translations. There are often audio books too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_in_translation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Potter_in_translation
Compare that to https://wycliffenz.org/about/our-work/bible-translation-stat... which claims 683 full translations, 1534 new testament (complete enough for language learning), and 3350 with at least something translated (maybe not enough to learn the language)
I have learned Cantonese for over a year to be able to communicate with my girlfriend's family. As a native spanish speaker, this was task that seemed insurmountable at first given how little learning materials exist out there. The Internet is flooded with Mandarin learning materials, courses, books, and content yet Cantonese learners are far fewer. Went from not knowing how to say a simple greeting like 你好 (neih5 hou2) to knowing 2500 characters, speaking conversationally with her mom, and being able to write 500 word short stories. Here's what helped me get over the hurdle of lack of learning materials:
1. 1h lesson every Sunday with a professional Cantonese teacher from italki.com (native speaker from Hong Kong) 2. Focus on pattern recognition of character radicals, write with pen and paper 30 new vocab words per week. Starting on Monday, I would prepare the words of the week, focusing on utility. Then, I would write each word every morning 10-15 times. Thankfully, my memory would never forget a character after doing this approach. 3. Focus on listening and reading advanced content with an OCR translator handy, even if it was very uncomfortable, difficult, I would not stop until I 100% understood a paragraph down to its nuances 4. Keep a handy grammar book or resource cheat sheet, covering particular grammar edge cases 5. Conversation practice every day with my girlfriend, with the goal of pushing myself into uncomfortable territory by trying to express complex ideas and not just talk about the weather 6. Native speaking intonation practice every Saturday, focusing on all the different phonemes and listening to various native speakers pronounce sounds I had a hard time enunciating, such as the `ng` sound or `j` vs. `ch` in Cantonese. Cantonese has 6 tones in HK and 9 tones in the regional variants in Guangdong, so it's important to master them and understand all the nuances of their pitch differences. 7. Write, write, write. Attempt to gather thoughts first in my native tongue, then try my best to translate a paragraph using my Cantonese vocab so far and learn new words in the process.
It's worth noting this takes up the majority of my free time, essentially being my major "hobby" as I have a goal of fluency within the next few years.
It's a tough world out there for anyone learning a Chinese language that isn't Mandarin. Overall, I learned there _are_ indeed resources and people are more than willing to help. If anyone is learning Cantonese, please DM me and I'd be happy to share more information.
1. 1h lesson every Sunday with a professional Cantonese teacher from italki.com (native speaker from Hong Kong) 2. Focus on pattern recognition of character radicals, write with pen and paper 30 new vocab words per week. Starting on Monday, I would prepare the words of the week, focusing on utility. Then, I would write each word every morning 10-15 times. Thankfully, my memory would never forget a character after doing this approach. 3. Focus on listening and reading advanced content with an OCR translator handy, even if it was very uncomfortable, difficult, I would not stop until I 100% understood a paragraph down to its nuances 4. Keep a handy grammar book or resource cheat sheet, covering particular grammar edge cases 5. Conversation practice every day with my girlfriend, with the goal of pushing myself into uncomfortable territory by trying to express complex ideas and not just talk about the weather 6. Native speaking intonation practice every Saturday, focusing on all the different phonemes and listening to various native speakers pronounce sounds I had a hard time enunciating, such as the `ng` sound or `j` vs. `ch` in Cantonese. Cantonese has 6 tones in HK and 9 tones in the regional variants in Guangdong, so it's important to master them and understand all the nuances of their pitch differences. 7. Write, write, write. Attempt to gather thoughts first in my native tongue, then try my best to translate a paragraph using my Cantonese vocab so far and learn new words in the process.
It's worth noting this takes up the majority of my free time, essentially being my major "hobby" as I have a goal of fluency within the next few years.
It's a tough world out there for anyone learning a Chinese language that isn't Mandarin. Overall, I learned there _are_ indeed resources and people are more than willing to help. If anyone is learning Cantonese, please DM me and I'd be happy to share more information.
My hat's off to you for learning Cantonese, it's not easy both on the surface (more tones than Mandarin, traditional vs simplified characters), but also for the paucity of Canto-specific resources, as you point out.
Finally, it really is a dying language and I myself struggled with squaring the effort I was putting in with the perceived benefit I would get from it -- it was largely an attempt at filial piety, so that I could speak with my wife's grandparents and also demonstrate respect, but then they passed away. Nowadays I hear that Cantonese isn't even taught in schools in Hong Kong. The writing is on the wall for the language.
I was amazed that the local community college in my hometown had Cantonese for a long time (before finally giving up and shuttering it about 7 years ago).
http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/ is a great resource for anybody learning Cantonese.
Finally, it really is a dying language and I myself struggled with squaring the effort I was putting in with the perceived benefit I would get from it -- it was largely an attempt at filial piety, so that I could speak with my wife's grandparents and also demonstrate respect, but then they passed away. Nowadays I hear that Cantonese isn't even taught in schools in Hong Kong. The writing is on the wall for the language.
I was amazed that the local community college in my hometown had Cantonese for a long time (before finally giving up and shuttering it about 7 years ago).
http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/ is a great resource for anybody learning Cantonese.
Maybe I'm just old and stupid, but I don't feel like I am really learning a lot watching movies in a foreign language. I should probably try to do it more though.
I grew up in San Diego and took like four Spanish classes and even some in college. But never really learned verbal skills and did not use it since school.
I moved to Playas de Tijuana a few years ago to save money. For more than a year I made really minimal efforts to practice my Spanish though. It was not usually necessary since a lot of the people here speak okay English. I usually just take an Uber and it wasn't very important. And since my Spanish was horrible, often it felt counterproductive to try.
But the last several months I have been making a deliberate modest effort to practice. And I feel like I am slowly getting less hopeless.
But I would say if you are going for the immersion route and are lazy (practical?) like me, you might actually have to go somewhere kind of far (definitely not right next to the border) to find a place where you really need to use it a lot due to lack of English in the population. Here it is a little too easy to find people who are fluent in English.
Part of the challenge for me is that I didn't want to sound like an idiot. I decided to just accept that and now I pretend that verb tenses don't exist (I was pretty good at them in high school but that was like 25 years ago) and it makes it much easier. Lol.
I grew up in San Diego and took like four Spanish classes and even some in college. But never really learned verbal skills and did not use it since school.
I moved to Playas de Tijuana a few years ago to save money. For more than a year I made really minimal efforts to practice my Spanish though. It was not usually necessary since a lot of the people here speak okay English. I usually just take an Uber and it wasn't very important. And since my Spanish was horrible, often it felt counterproductive to try.
But the last several months I have been making a deliberate modest effort to practice. And I feel like I am slowly getting less hopeless.
But I would say if you are going for the immersion route and are lazy (practical?) like me, you might actually have to go somewhere kind of far (definitely not right next to the border) to find a place where you really need to use it a lot due to lack of English in the population. Here it is a little too easy to find people who are fluent in English.
Part of the challenge for me is that I didn't want to sound like an idiot. I decided to just accept that and now I pretend that verb tenses don't exist (I was pretty good at them in high school but that was like 25 years ago) and it makes it much easier. Lol.
There are very few things which one can eventually do well without initially doing poorly.
Fosh wowk gutegow natim. Im gut kowltim.
Bonus clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFNuGjqjyQo
Fosh wowk gutegow natim. Im gut kowltim.
Bonus clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFNuGjqjyQo
The biggest helper that wasn’t mentioned is keeping or making new friends who are strong in your target language and weak in your strong tongue. That has helped me more than anything
I've found that the problem with this most of the time is that we end up just speaking English because it's less frustrating (simply because most people are better at it because of exposure) than trying to use each other's tongue.
This just mean that they're beating you in the contest of getting the most language learning out of your interactions. Your frustration in speaking is causing you to bail, or your perception of their frustration in understanding is causing you to bail, so you're instead always returning to a language where you can be comfortable speaking and you're not worried about frustrating your friend with your attempts.
From my pov, that just means that you'd rather exercise your patience than the target language, because you you have control over your patience and kindness, and you don't have control over the target language (it's a scarier position to be in.)
From my pov, that just means that you'd rather exercise your patience than the target language, because you you have control over your patience and kindness, and you don't have control over the target language (it's a scarier position to be in.)
C'est en forgeant qu'on devient forgeron.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23591488
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23591488
I've fallen into that SOO many times. And it's a bit transactional to ask people to lower the intellect of the conversation to help you out for a portion of the time you talk together
Learning foreign language is way easier than "making new friends".
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For Spanish, I use the General English-Spanish dictionary for iOS from https://www.wordmagicsoft.com (they also have Android and desktop apps, apparently). It's fantastic: it lets you look up conjugated verbs and has full conjugation tables as well. I can generally read a fair amount without consulting the dictionary (I'm working my way through Hija de la fortuna by Isabel Allende right now), but every so often I need it, especially when I get into some area of unusual subject matter. Last month I read Federico García Lorca's Romancero Gitano which really gave the dictionary a workout. His use of language is so inventive I found myself looking up words I knew because I would be thinking "does that make sense?" an awful lot. I may have to read García Lorca annually just because it expanded my mind so much.
If you are at the point of reading a book (upper intermediate) you chould probably be using a normal Spanish dictionary with the definitions in Spanish.
True, it's largely laziness that keeps me using it. And there are occasional brain freezes where this dictionary really helps (the one that I remember most clearly was when I was reading a B. Traven story in Spanish and was stumped by alitas (this was back when I still used a paper dictionary while reading). Obviously it's the diminutive of alas, but I just couldn't see it. Fortunately, I was on vacation in Mexico at the time and the tour guide was able to point out my dumb problem. My wife who is fluently bilingual (she's a native Spanish speaker and speaks English without any trace of an accent and has a book credit writing in English) (and actually, she's trilingual, she also speaks French. Makes me feel pretty stupid beside her) uses the same dictionary although much less than I do, for the occasional gaps in her vocabulary (which is often broader than my own, see http://www.dahosek.com/susurrus/ )
> As a result I can now speak vastly better than I could 12 months ago,
All the things he lists are consuming the language though (reading/listening), not speaking it. Which is a great start, don't get me wrong, but having to find the correct words and form a sentence is something else than understanding one.
All the things he lists are consuming the language though (reading/listening), not speaking it. Which is a great start, don't get me wrong, but having to find the correct words and form a sentence is something else than understanding one.
Of course the methods listed should be effective regardless of the language as they simulate immersion, but it will not be so "painless" the further away you move from the European language families which share many similarities.
Are the any professional linguists in this thread?
Reason I ask is I have become very interested in the origin of languages over the last year or so (partially because of Covid). I've been learning German and French for a while now and I find the most difficult parts of learning these languages to be the grammar. I'd like to find a hierarchy of grammar for related languages, and see if there are some patterns that filter down through the child languages. I have a Latin textbook (probably need to dust that off), and am very interested in how these languages (Romance and Germanic) are all stitched together.
Reason I ask is I have become very interested in the origin of languages over the last year or so (partially because of Covid). I've been learning German and French for a while now and I find the most difficult parts of learning these languages to be the grammar. I'd like to find a hierarchy of grammar for related languages, and see if there are some patterns that filter down through the child languages. I have a Latin textbook (probably need to dust that off), and am very interested in how these languages (Romance and Germanic) are all stitched together.
You may find The World Atlas of Language Structures https://wals.info/chapter/s1 interesting then.
you should be checking out the classic work The Loom of Language
One suggestion I didn’t see in here was video games! I switch my Switch to a second language to play Animal Crossing. I’ve found it to be a fun and intuitive way to pick up a little more colloquial language and vocabulary. I’ve had similar good luck with other text-heavy games like the Sims.
Plus, the short format makes it relatively painless, even when your reading comprehension is a little slow. Novels and news were always a slog to me, but a few lines of text feels more manageable. (And less daunting if you have to grab the dictionary.)
Plus, the short format makes it relatively painless, even when your reading comprehension is a little slow. Novels and news were always a slog to me, but a few lines of text feels more manageable. (And less daunting if you have to grab the dictionary.)
You may also consider playing MMO games like WoW. While I never learned English properly, WoW is what allowed me overcome my language barrier and helped me to start communicating with people. Unfortunately I still didn't invest time to properly learn all the grammar, but it was enough for my practical needs.
I really agree to all the points in the article. But I would add another one: Today it is so much easier to find someone online to speak to in your target language. There are many facebook groups (and certainly other ways) to find people interested in a language tandem via Jitsy/Zoom/Skype etc. Surely, it is nicer to meet someone in person in a café or bar, but it is much easier to meet online, especially when you are working a full time job and have to integrate these meetings in an already tight schedule.
> Which audio and subtitles you have access to depends on the show and which country you’re in. I could get some shows in Spanish in the US, but not the UK
AFAIR it depends not on physical country you're in, but on Accept-Language sent by your browser. You can edit your browser's preferred langs and you'll get a different suggestions of languages. I saw it explained (maybe even here on HN) by someone from Netflix as "it's a feature™ to prevent having too long list of languages in UI".
AFAIR it depends not on physical country you're in, but on Accept-Language sent by your browser. You can edit your browser's preferred langs and you'll get a different suggestions of languages. I saw it explained (maybe even here on HN) by someone from Netflix as "it's a feature™ to prevent having too long list of languages in UI".
I haven't tried using Netflix in the browser, but in the Windows desktop app it does depend on which country you are in. Or rather, which country the app thinks you are in; using a VPN can unlock audio and subtitles in different languages.
Thanks for posting. I set my phone to Polish and it's already really helping with my vocabulary.
I also recommend Flowlingo for reading practice. It lets you visit websites or read e-books with tap-to-translate. The killer feature is that every word you tap gets entered into a spaced-repetition deck for later review. It's a great way to build and maintain your higher-register vocabulary with words you wouldn't ordinarily use in everyday speech.
I also recommend Flowlingo for reading practice. It lets you visit websites or read e-books with tap-to-translate. The killer feature is that every word you tap gets entered into a spaced-repetition deck for later review. It's a great way to build and maintain your higher-register vocabulary with words you wouldn't ordinarily use in everyday speech.
Other resources: http://radio.garden for international radio, language frequency dictionary
When I moved to the US one of the biggest problems I had was listening. It was hard for me to keep conversations going with colleagues, because It was hard for me to understand. I used to go every Friday to Blockbuster and rent movies which I listened with english subs. Then I ended up watching Godfather II every other week and it definitely helped.
^ Spanish and Italian verb conjugation training with the UI that's broken on mobile.
Use Tandem to talk with natives, have audio and video chats.
This alone will considerably improve your target language comprehension, especially when it comes with common expressions, slang and small talk
This alone will considerably improve your target language comprehension, especially when it comes with common expressions, slang and small talk
I'm surprised the author doesn't cover services that help you interact with native speakers. My favorite is iTalki, which connects you with tutors on Skype.
YouTube's great auto sub for English really helps me to understanding and learning English. I wish such quality is available for other langs.
Didn't learn English in 7 years at school.
Learned English from reading Comics and watching e.g. Fawlty Towers in the end.
Learned English from reading Comics and watching e.g. Fawlty Towers in the end.
Anki isn't free for the iPhone; just Desktop, Android and Web. It's worth buying the app, though.
This comment section looks like a guerrilla marketing campaign for various language-learning web apps.
Learning softwares are also good stuff
Whuch language has the best ROI?
English, because you have already learned it and have used it on at least one forum. (even if you only used it to ask what many think is a stupid question, or perhaps you are a troll)
If you learn something else you might never use it as much as you have used English above. If your personal experience puts you in an experience where a different language is needed, knowing that language will have a large ROI. Knowing a language tends lead you to experiences where knowledge of that language is useful, even if the language is useless to the rest of us.
If you learn something else you might never use it as much as you have used English above. If your personal experience puts you in an experience where a different language is needed, knowing that language will have a large ROI. Knowing a language tends lead you to experiences where knowledge of that language is useful, even if the language is useless to the rest of us.
I did all the things described in the article, more or less. This was my approach:
1. I had a 1h lesson with a private tutor over Skype (via italki.com) every single day. This was the part which cost me most money. But private tutors from italki is fairly cheap.
2. Listened to the news every day in easy french (RFI has a great short podcast).
3. I watched LOTR (the only one I had available where I could change language and subtitles to be the same) first with English audio and french subtitles, and then french audio and french subtitles and lastly only french audio no subtitles.
4. Listened to french kids books as audiobooks.
5. I read kids book in french.
6. I finished the 3 months with a week of immersive french course in France and then spent another week travelling France alone, committed to only speak french.
7. During this whole time I added 10 words per day into my Anki deck. I also added any other words that I learned along the way. This was quiet a lot of work.
8. During the three months I also went through the Duolingo French course.
After three months of hard work I passed the fluency test for french.
It took quiet a lot of time and quiet a lot of money. But it got the result I was after.
Ps. My tutor also wrote a nice review for me on LinkedIn which I’m very proud of and look at every now and again: “Xxx has learned French with my company. He became fluent in 3 months in has now reached a level close to B2 on the European Framework of Reference, starting from scratch. He has been an extremely hard-working and committed student, with classes every day at 6.30am.”