Honoring Your Craft – An alternative to the Four Hour Work Week mindset(dantawfik.medium.com)
dantawfik.medium.com
Honoring Your Craft – An alternative to the Four Hour Work Week mindset
https://dantawfik.medium.com/craftsmanship-the-alternative-to-the-four-hour-work-week-mindset-36490fc1c038
61 comments
That work gets money to those developing countries that otherwise wouldn't be there. A person in that country does not have the tools to get the work that the person in the first world country can. They don't even have the tools to maintain that working relationship once set up. The person orchestrating the outsourcing is transferring money from a rich country to a poor country and is essential in doing so. You can say that they should send virtually all of the money they get to that country but it's hard to argue that they're doing something unjust.
But why do you think people in developing countries deserve to be compensated less than others for the same work?
I don't care if their alternative is a worse job, I'm asking why you, citizen of a first world country who lives daily on more than they live on average in a month, should feel ok paying them miserable wages for work that in your country would be paid 10x. Especially when the return you get is exactly the same, as you sell your product in a first world country by first world prices.
I don't care if their alternative is a worse job, I'm asking why you, citizen of a first world country who lives daily on more than they live on average in a month, should feel ok paying them miserable wages for work that in your country would be paid 10x. Especially when the return you get is exactly the same, as you sell your product in a first world country by first world prices.
Why do you think that compensation should have anything to do with 'deserve'? There is no 'deserving' value for work, it is just about balancing demand and supply for work. The only realistic way to raise average wage is to saturate supply of work by providing enough demand.
It is possible to outsource work tho third countries for less money, why everybody does not do that and there are still work in developed countries? Because it has some costs that may or may not be apparent. Therefore if you require to pay the same wage, you discourage anybody to give work to people in developing countries.
It is possible to outsource work tho third countries for less money, why everybody does not do that and there are still work in developed countries? Because it has some costs that may or may not be apparent. Therefore if you require to pay the same wage, you discourage anybody to give work to people in developing countries.
Except usually developing countries are "behind" thanks to western exploitation. It is really delusional to think that you're helping them by giving them underpaid work, while you're just really repeating the pattern that caused their poverty.
But at an individual level, the alternative of not outsourcing is worse for the person that would receive the wage.
At a macro level, I’d also like to point at the China - US outsourcing story, and how it’s going regarding hollowing out of industries, IP and know-how transfer, and plain old money transfer. It’s not going too bad for China for the moment...
At a macro level, I’d also like to point at the China - US outsourcing story, and how it’s going regarding hollowing out of industries, IP and know-how transfer, and plain old money transfer. It’s not going too bad for China for the moment...
All thanks to China's economic policy. They managed to suck out the wealth of the west for years, something they could do because they were and are in a privileged position. It is not the same for many other developed countries. In fact if you don't consider China, since 1981 we have 1 billion more poor people in the world.
They were in the privileged position of earning very little, right? That’s my whole point!
No. Earning very little alone means nothing. Some countries with cheap labor have developed, others have not.
> thanks to western exploitation
I can believe the exploitation part. There is certainly corruption everywhere which is often part of the cause.
But citation needed for the western part please.
I can believe the exploitation part. There is certainly corruption everywhere which is often part of the cause.
But citation needed for the western part please.
Just read any modern history? Of course western is reductive, not only western powers are exploitative. But check what western powers did in Africa for example. Check what they do and did in Latin America. In the middle east and part of Asia too.
What makes us exploitative is the fact that we go in poor countries and buy their best resources/workforce for the cheapest price possible, without caring if the money we pay even goes to benefit the population, (as often it only goes to benefit a few corrupt politicans/corporations). It's exploitation because we don't really help them get out of poverty but rather condemn them to a vicious circle of being dependent from us.
What makes us exploitative is the fact that we go in poor countries and buy their best resources/workforce for the cheapest price possible, without caring if the money we pay even goes to benefit the population, (as often it only goes to benefit a few corrupt politicans/corporations). It's exploitation because we don't really help them get out of poverty but rather condemn them to a vicious circle of being dependent from us.
To repeat your point, market economics are the worst, except for every other kind of economics.
I've considered the same question myself. The global per capita median income is a little under 3k USD. If you wanted to make global income inequality better you'd probably start by making the west dramatically poorer.
We can start by stopping exploitation of poverty. Pay western rates on everything you buy from poor countries. It's time companies learn to find their competitive edge outside of employee exploitation.
If you are so concerned about this you could start sending them 50% of your paycheck every month.
Or you could stop exploting them. Points of view.
If you are the rare individual that is actually capable of building something worthwhile by putting in only 4 hours a week, imagine what putting in relatively excessive time could accomplish.
Why is outsourcing unethical?
It distributes more wealth to you by taking opportunities from those with less than you and giving them to someone desperate. Ethical actions are "rising tide lifts all boats" situations where either you help everyone make more money, or instead of taking from others, to make an extra buck, give of yourself. Within reason, of course.
Then there are the second order effects, such as the dissolution of the middle class in your own country that everyone who outsources and automates is/will be partially responsible for.
Then there are the second order effects, such as the dissolution of the middle class in your own country that everyone who outsources and automates is/will be partially responsible for.
So as one of those people living in a 3rd world country, let me say we aren’t particularly desperate. Relative purchasing power of money means that even a small amount goes a long way. Ubiquitous poverty means that no one feels particularly downtrodden in comparison to their peers.
Also culturally, we tend to share the wealth, so what is one job in America will become 6 jobs here.
From what I can see, outsourcing deprives one American of a job, makes one American desperate, and lifts 10 of us into the local middle class.
Also culturally, we tend to share the wealth, so what is one job in America will become 6 jobs here.
From what I can see, outsourcing deprives one American of a job, makes one American desperate, and lifts 10 of us into the local middle class.
Sounds like a good deal for you. It doesn't really help here or change anything that I said about the ethics of the situation.
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This is a zero-sum view.. just because you benefit doesn’t mean the other side suffers. You get the service you wanted, the other person gets the money they wanted. They wouldn’t be doing the job if they had a better option.
It cannot be a zero sum view by definition, since I said that "rising tide lifts all boats" situations are ethical. I'm sure you know, such situations aren't possible in zero-sum.
What can be zero-sum is if no new value is added, but you shuffle around who gets what. If Peter has a way to make $100 himself if someone else helps, and he decides to go from paying Mary $30 to paying Paul $5, he has enriched himself by taking from Mary.
I'm saying it's ethical for Peter to enrich himself as long as he enriches everyone, and it is unethical to take from others to give to himself.
What can be zero-sum is if no new value is added, but you shuffle around who gets what. If Peter has a way to make $100 himself if someone else helps, and he decides to go from paying Mary $30 to paying Paul $5, he has enriched himself by taking from Mary.
I'm saying it's ethical for Peter to enrich himself as long as he enriches everyone, and it is unethical to take from others to give to himself.
$5 in Thailand might go as far as $20 in Dallas, which goes as far as $30 in New York. So if you take $30 from Mary in NY and give the equivalent of $20 to Jane in Dallas, is that unethical too? Or give $5 to someone in Thailand? At worst you could call it unpatriotic if you hire outside your country, but on a humanity scale its very hard to say its unethical or even truly understand the consequences.
It is not outsourcing that is unethical but to advertise it like a magical way of working less.
The title of the book makes it sound like you can accomplish more by working less, while in fact the remaining 36 hours worth of work is done by someone else every week.
Think of it that way: How would someone from one of the developing countries the book mentions would benefit from what's written in that book?
The title of the book makes it sound like you can accomplish more by working less, while in fact the remaining 36 hours worth of work is done by someone else every week.
Think of it that way: How would someone from one of the developing countries the book mentions would benefit from what's written in that book?
Easy. He would see that there is a business opportunity for him to sell outsourcing services to a developed country, which he would not have thought so before.
Fair enough, but that's an unintentional side effect. He can't do that by working 4 hours a day, at least not by following the recommendations in that book.
Just answer this question:in a world with no poor countries, would outsourcing be possible? If the answer is no, then outsourcing is based on exploiting poverty and no, it's not ethical.
Giving a poor person a job is not “exploiting poverty”, it’s alleviating poverty.
Giving a poor person an underpaid job is not helping them. Is making them "an offer they can't refuse". You want to alleviate poverty? Pay for their education, healthcare, give them a house. They'll pull themselves out of poverty without need for your exploitative job offer.
So the north Korea model? Free housing, education and Healthcare. Let's see how this will work out with the pulling out of poverty.
I don’t think it’s unethical
I think you miss the point of the four hour work week. The spirit of the book is delegation of things you don't want to do. Tim writes in the book that before an 80/20 analysis you will have to try a lot of things and see what sticks. Considering the fact that Tim writes about proactively researching the market and creating new categories if possible and to test various marketing tools and product ideas it's not the four hour work week mindset that's the problem. It's the people who just read the title and not the book that are hurting its big ideas.
The titular four hour workweek was enabled by selling "herbal supplements" online IIRC. I don't regard that as aspirational. (Though I'm aware people need money to live, and you know, do what you gotta do I guess...but...).
Yeah it seems Tim’s journey was about faking it till he ‘made’ it: selling supplements > selling book (about selling supplements + outsourcing) > angel investing
The male Kardashian life cycle.
Do you think his podcast is interesting though?
Sometimes. I think I’ve only listened to a few (like 2 or 3). For me most of it falls under the category of ‘magical voluntarism’. It surprised me in his conversation with Dr. Gabor Maté (who I’m a big fan of) how he was scared to really open up and be honest/real.
The book isn't for people who aspire to something greater than passive income and free time. In this case I'd say you're not the target audience.
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My recollection of Four Hour Work Week was that the core of it was dropshipping.
I don't really need to outsource most of my daily activities, which was the rest of the book. The big win of the book was to serve as a middleman, but that kind of rent-seeking quickly fills up the niches.
If he's saying "discover a brand new market and develop it before everybody else does", yeah, that's pretty much what we're all doing on HN. It takes a lot more than four hours per week until you find it, and very few people find it. The rest of us labor 80 hour weeks in our startups, or give up and work merely 40 hours.
I don't really need to outsource most of my daily activities, which was the rest of the book. The big win of the book was to serve as a middleman, but that kind of rent-seeking quickly fills up the niches.
If he's saying "discover a brand new market and develop it before everybody else does", yeah, that's pretty much what we're all doing on HN. It takes a lot more than four hours per week until you find it, and very few people find it. The rest of us labor 80 hour weeks in our startups, or give up and work merely 40 hours.
The drop shipping part I recall was part of 5 options he outlines and discusses the pros and cons and roi of. And the discover a brand new market and develop a product was another. The core really was just streamlining your inbound and focusing on creating a great product overpriced for luxury markets so you have customers that pay well enough and can be managed by one person.
It's really no secret that Tim himself worked 100 hour weeks for an year before he could streamline his company, he says so himself.
The best idea I took was that of not banking on retirement and constantly upskilling. And the hypothetical questions like if you had 6 months to complete your 5 year plan what would you do. Makes a man think creatively.
It's really no secret that Tim himself worked 100 hour weeks for an year before he could streamline his company, he says so himself.
The best idea I took was that of not banking on retirement and constantly upskilling. And the hypothetical questions like if you had 6 months to complete your 5 year plan what would you do. Makes a man think creatively.
I think you are right. It’s how people ran with the book that is a little cringe
Thank you for writing this. I always found the Four Hour Work Week to be offensive to my values, but I couldn't effectively put my objection into words. This has captured exactly how I feel about it.
I hope more people begin to follow this mindset than the vapid, soulless Tim Ferris approach.
I hope more people begin to follow this mindset than the vapid, soulless Tim Ferris approach.
A pre-requisite to automating and finding optimizations in the way Ferris describes, is to first be really good at what you do. Tim Ferris himself is good at what he does.
Please elaborate on what he's good at. I know nothing about Ferris, but 5 minutes of searching leads me to believe he's good at selling people on things that are at best unsubstantiated. His fortune was made off BrainQUICKEN - a snakeoil supplement to "help the brain" as best I can tell?
He’s a thoughtful person overall. He is an excellent interviewer. There’s also something to be said that creating a brand as large as he has takes some insight into marketing and understanding his audience.
Your quick impression based on your cursory Google search is likely very reasonable. But I think it's important to note that this (unintentionally) does a huge disservice to the person Tim has grown into since writing the Four Hour Work Week.
Apart from being an incredibly good, humble and thoughtful interviewer, as others have said, I would also encourage anyone unfamiliar with his more recent work to check out his output in the areas of depression, suicide, childhood abuse, psychedelics research, not to mention his later books and countless fascinating podcast interviews with some incredible people.
Whatever you may think of the 4HWW and the almost cult-like following that it inspired, I think that Tim Ferris is a bit of a force for good at this point in time, and quite unique in his ability to tackle any subject head on - even the hardest and most personal ones.
He has a vast audience, and his writings about his own deep personal struggles are incredibly valuable, and I'm sure will have done a lot of good for people in similar positions. This sort of material is hugely important, coming from someone with such a broad reach.
As an aside, I pre-ordered 4HWW prior to it's launch and did find it a very inspiring read as a 20-something wannabe entrepreneur. Everyone gets something different from that book, but I had read The E-myth prior to it, and saw a lot of it as reenforcement of the idea of trying to free up your time to work "on your business" and not "in your business". In that sense, I saw a lot of value in it. But I also understand the flip-side "outsource everything and go live on a beach" view of the book...
It's worth noting that he didn't do the beach thing himself though. He extracted himself quickly out of his day-to-day grind and freed up his time to spend on things that he was interested in, and work hard in high-leverage areas that he wanted to contribute to, on his terms.
Apart from being an incredibly good, humble and thoughtful interviewer, as others have said, I would also encourage anyone unfamiliar with his more recent work to check out his output in the areas of depression, suicide, childhood abuse, psychedelics research, not to mention his later books and countless fascinating podcast interviews with some incredible people.
Whatever you may think of the 4HWW and the almost cult-like following that it inspired, I think that Tim Ferris is a bit of a force for good at this point in time, and quite unique in his ability to tackle any subject head on - even the hardest and most personal ones.
He has a vast audience, and his writings about his own deep personal struggles are incredibly valuable, and I'm sure will have done a lot of good for people in similar positions. This sort of material is hugely important, coming from someone with such a broad reach.
As an aside, I pre-ordered 4HWW prior to it's launch and did find it a very inspiring read as a 20-something wannabe entrepreneur. Everyone gets something different from that book, but I had read The E-myth prior to it, and saw a lot of it as reenforcement of the idea of trying to free up your time to work "on your business" and not "in your business". In that sense, I saw a lot of value in it. But I also understand the flip-side "outsource everything and go live on a beach" view of the book...
It's worth noting that he didn't do the beach thing himself though. He extracted himself quickly out of his day-to-day grind and freed up his time to spend on things that he was interested in, and work hard in high-leverage areas that he wanted to contribute to, on his terms.
He is good at selling dreams.
I think anyone who calls Tim Ferriss vapid will have to revisit their opinion from the 4 hour workweek book days. His podcast is one of the most insightful I've found, the questions are incredibly penetrating and detailed. He asks questions in a way that I have not really heard of before from other interviewers, ie "Given circumstances A, and B, and that we could consider or discount C here as well, how would you do X?"
I will also note that in 4HWW that he does tell you to delegate and automate only when you've fully understood what to do. And what's wrong with such automation? That's what we programmers do on a daily basis.
I will also note that in 4HWW that he does tell you to delegate and automate only when you've fully understood what to do. And what's wrong with such automation? That's what we programmers do on a daily basis.
I am glad you enjoyed it. I think Tim Ferris is a thoughtful person, but I think people have put too much attention on the hacking part of this particular book, and not enough attention on building mastery.
I agree that he is thoughtful. His work on PTSD and psychedelics is interesting.
I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly like this.
At the moment I'm trying to find a digital ad agency, and it's all just "we'll hack your ads to supersize your growth!" Meanwhile I'm over here looking for someone who will spend the time to thoughtfully and methodically test ads, adjust based on the results and then continue to improve over time. Silly me.
At the moment I'm trying to find a digital ad agency, and it's all just "we'll hack your ads to supersize your growth!" Meanwhile I'm over here looking for someone who will spend the time to thoughtfully and methodically test ads, adjust based on the results and then continue to improve over time. Silly me.
Hey I'm looking into digital ad work, any way to contact you?
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Musk is only the epitome of being borne rich and having the backup financial support to tryout ideas that might fail. Other ppl get one shot.
This resonates with me being a product manager. In product work, honing your craft over time is what propels you and your career forward. There's no faster way to do that than working at a startup, or on a product with a burgeoning business around it.
Where can I read this for free? not wanting to cheapskate you, but it's pretty ironic to read a freedom-building post in a non-free medium.
Opening the link in a private/incognito browser window usually works.
That being said, I don't find the book overly ethical. It simply suggests outsourcing most of the work to developing countries, where people work for less.