Ask HN: How to convince your manager to let you continue to WFH.
What is your advice to a developer that enjoys their current job and wants to continue to WFH post-pandemic.
51 comments
Tell them you’re going to leave if you can’t WFH, and mean it. Have an alternative job lined up in case they say no.
I'm of the opinion that 2022 will have a glut of job-seekers who are looking for remote-only positions, all of whom are looking for software jobs. I can't be the only one expecting this either, so if you plan to do this, don't expect easy going.
Senior engineers with a proven track record of success will be fine. Mid/junior level engineers will not be so lucky.
That’s a real risk. Being a senior engineer on a team can make you very valuable to that team in particular, so you might have the power to make an ultimatum. It could get a lot harder to line up that alternative remote job, however.
It's not software, but what I read on KitchenConfidential, cooking's a passion and something I did at a junior level, suggests the culinary industry has been thrown on it's head, more than normal, with a huge gap between those willing to go back to the kitchen and salaries, working, delivery, are all over the place. I'm not sure how this analogy holds up in software, but feel it does in some fashion.
This exactly. Companies that initially agreed to work from home during the pandemic and are choosing to force people back to work will not work and they'll have an issue with talent themselves. Have self-respect and look at elsewhere to protect your a*
- Be really really good at your job
- You don't need to be told what to do all the time.
- You have proven that you can WFH and deliver great results
- You have proven that you have integrity and are available when needed for important discussions, meetings etc.
If you have most of these, you have "leverage". Otherwise it may be tough if your manager doesn't want you to WFH post-pandemic.
- You don't need to be told what to do all the time.
- You have proven that you can WFH and deliver great results
- You have proven that you have integrity and are available when needed for important discussions, meetings etc.
If you have most of these, you have "leverage". Otherwise it may be tough if your manager doesn't want you to WFH post-pandemic.
If you can check all these boxes, you can probably also just look for a job where you can work from home.
Sometimes it's nice to keep the job you have and just change the venue.
I was able to move and keep my job because I had the first two boxes, and showed the second two. Being 'indespensible' helped, although they also did fine when I eventually left (but I left later than expected, because of flexibility)
I was able to move and keep my job because I had the first two boxes, and showed the second two. Being 'indespensible' helped, although they also did fine when I eventually left (but I left later than expected, because of flexibility)
If a developer is truly good, and thus truly indespensable, they can leave and barely be missed.
Until the entropy in their wake catches up with everyone else
What do you mean? I meant that the best developers work well with others, coordinate with others, write maintainable code and document that code. All of this makes things easy to maintain if the developer leaves. These are rare traits and thus make an indespensable developer.
The developer leaves and it starts with having to ask a co-worker how to configure something simple. Then suddenly the code isn't as well documented or the documents all issues that cause things not to go smoothly. Things slowly get harder to maintain because that person isn't there fighting entropy to keep order.
Good point.
Pre-covid story, but we had two people in a sister team that had arranged WFH, other than occasional trips to the office for important meetings etc. They were both very good at their jobs, and also had a lot of knowledge on how certain systems worked, etc.
New CTO comes in, immediately mandates there will be no more of this WFH nonsense anymore. Short while later, both of the aforementioned people hand in their resignation. A lot of knowledge was lost. These were people that had been there a long time, so while they did their best to hand off knowledge, such things are always imperfect.
Covid comes along, and we're forced to WFH. But the CTO (same person) is making sure that once we're back to a safe level, WFH will again no longer be an option. In a town hall, some people dared to question the decision, but all she would say was that it was "scientifically proven by data that WFH is not productive". Nevermind that the company had just spent a year WFH with little to no loss in productivity.
Asked if that data could be shown, she said "it's out there for anyone to find".
New CTO comes in, immediately mandates there will be no more of this WFH nonsense anymore. Short while later, both of the aforementioned people hand in their resignation. A lot of knowledge was lost. These were people that had been there a long time, so while they did their best to hand off knowledge, such things are always imperfect.
Covid comes along, and we're forced to WFH. But the CTO (same person) is making sure that once we're back to a safe level, WFH will again no longer be an option. In a town hall, some people dared to question the decision, but all she would say was that it was "scientifically proven by data that WFH is not productive". Nevermind that the company had just spent a year WFH with little to no loss in productivity.
Asked if that data could be shown, she said "it's out there for anyone to find".
Have witnessed similar types of answers to questions at town halls. Love the contrast between the openness of "we do town halls!" and the closed-ness of "trust me" / "anyone can look it up" responses.
So now you know it's time to go, whether or not you care about WFH.
I love it when an org can be so transparent.
I would like to see this situation playing out when someone uber confident would keep going at the topic questioning her and bringing good counter-examples, data examples. Also bringing out those 2 folks they lost as an argument for example. Ask her that you tried to Google, but only found data pointing at WFH being more productive, and whether she could help them out by pointing out to the "correct" study that was done. Make sure to bring out all the cons of not allowing WFH very eloquently.
https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/15259-working-from-home-mo....
One of my weird "fantasies" is to be at a level of net worth where I don't care at all about firing and have confidence to question bad attitudes or practices of the authority and see how they would handle it when I know that I'm in the right. Not out of maliciousness, but for the benefit of the company and everyone working there. Anyway this is a big motivator for me to save a lot of my net worth and also develop as strong debate skills as I possibly can with a charismatic and witty personality. I'm far from there, but I'm training myself.
Although in this case, looking deeper at the topic, I should also be sure that studies would be by my side since for instance this study done before Covid 19 https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/atus.pdf prefers working from office.
So in conclusion the situation is probably not as black and white and may end up in her favour still.
https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/15259-working-from-home-mo....
One of my weird "fantasies" is to be at a level of net worth where I don't care at all about firing and have confidence to question bad attitudes or practices of the authority and see how they would handle it when I know that I'm in the right. Not out of maliciousness, but for the benefit of the company and everyone working there. Anyway this is a big motivator for me to save a lot of my net worth and also develop as strong debate skills as I possibly can with a charismatic and witty personality. I'm far from there, but I'm training myself.
Although in this case, looking deeper at the topic, I should also be sure that studies would be by my side since for instance this study done before Covid 19 https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/atus.pdf prefers working from office.
So in conclusion the situation is probably not as black and white and may end up in her favour still.
I actually think there's a secret management school people go to to learn these skills.
* Lack of empathy - check * Lack of a life yourself - check * Wanton pain inflicted on subs - check * Domineering attitude - check * Ignore all evidence unless it was on your MBA course flavoured by Rupert Murdoch - check * Poor(er) people should just work harder - check
You're perfect for the role, Mr or Ms Pointy Haired!
* Lack of empathy - check * Lack of a life yourself - check * Wanton pain inflicted on subs - check * Domineering attitude - check * Ignore all evidence unless it was on your MBA course flavoured by Rupert Murdoch - check * Poor(er) people should just work harder - check
You're perfect for the role, Mr or Ms Pointy Haired!
I do all of these but it doesn't help. Part of the problem is that some colleagues can't work from home and to be "fair", everyone has to go into the office.
Does your manager know that you want to continue to WFH? I wouldn't just slap them with "I got another job lined up, let me WFH" right off the bat. A more reasonable progression may be:
1. Let them know you would like to continue to WFH, and why. Here I agree with others: it should be clear to them that you have maintained or even increased your productivity during the pandemic, and they should want to keep you.
2. See what they say. Are you willing to compromise? If they tell you later that they expect everyone to come back to work, your manager should know that you're not happy.
3. Get another job lined up and negotiate.
1. Let them know you would like to continue to WFH, and why. Here I agree with others: it should be clear to them that you have maintained or even increased your productivity during the pandemic, and they should want to keep you.
2. See what they say. Are you willing to compromise? If they tell you later that they expect everyone to come back to work, your manager should know that you're not happy.
3. Get another job lined up and negotiate.
Find another company willing to hire you to work full-remote.
Tell your boss that either the company allows you to keep working full-remote or you're leaving.
Tell your boss that either the company allows you to keep working full-remote or you're leaving.
This. It's very hard to work and succeed, particularly as a senior dev when you're the only one(or few) in a remote setting. Find a company that has embraced remote working style
People are saying be productive but it's going to come down to company policy rather than your direct manager. Unfortunately the only way company policy is influenced is if people leave
Put another way: Just like you're being told by your manager that you must report to the office, your manager is being told by their manager that they have no authority to override that. If your manager lets you work from home without permission, they're endangering their own job, just like you'd be endangering your own job if you continue to work from home without permission.
You need your manager to decide it's a good idea to go to their manager and ask for an exception, and so forth, until you find someone with the power to grant exceptions (or set policy).
That generally requires one of two things: Either you are an extraordinarily valuable employee, such that your manager feels compelled to bring this up with their manager and feels like they have a chance of success at that argument (either because senior management knows your value, or senior management trusts your direct manager), or a whole lot of ordinarily valuable employees all ask the same thing.
You need your manager to decide it's a good idea to go to their manager and ask for an exception, and so forth, until you find someone with the power to grant exceptions (or set policy).
That generally requires one of two things: Either you are an extraordinarily valuable employee, such that your manager feels compelled to bring this up with their manager and feels like they have a chance of success at that argument (either because senior management knows your value, or senior management trusts your direct manager), or a whole lot of ordinarily valuable employees all ask the same thing.
Manager probably doesn't care much. It's the company policy.
Now if your team is all going well, sure.
If there is a problem, the first thing other people will question is WFH since it's not a norm.
They will make all sorts of excuses like "that team doesn't WFH and does well" or "that team can WFH because they are better engineers".
This thing is very very hard to quantify.
Now if your team is all going well, sure.
If there is a problem, the first thing other people will question is WFH since it's not a norm.
They will make all sorts of excuses like "that team doesn't WFH and does well" or "that team can WFH because they are better engineers".
This thing is very very hard to quantify.
My previous company didn’t have a WFH policy and I made one up for the dev department. Other teams don’t care where devs are working from as long as A) things are getting done B) devs are accessible when needed.
Depends on the company size. Smaller companies have more flexibility since you can directly talk to the CEO or founder. They don't have too much red tape or HR rules as well. In that case, it comes down the candidate and their record and ability to negotiate.
Inform him about the offer you get from another company.
Let him counter if he wants.
Nothing ever worked better than this.
In any other negotiation you're a beggar.
Turn the tables.
Nothing ever worked better than this.
In any other negotiation you're a beggar.
Turn the tables.
Sometimes this is a middle or upper management concern that line managers don’t really care about. If you tell your manager individually “I’m going to WFH today” they may be okay with it, even if you do so frequently. But if you do something like a recurring calendar event it raises eyebrows at higher levels.
This is about WFH while still living in commuting range, however. I don’t think you could pull this if trying to live in another state.
This is about WFH while still living in commuting range, however. I don’t think you could pull this if trying to live in another state.
I feel that my work relationship is like partnership: I provide some value for some cash.
If the company wants to set 'work from office' culture and my WFH attitude will be hard for them, my position will have 'negative effect on the team'. I think it's always better to understand all the effects beforehand to better negotiate.
In the end of the day it's all about the value your team provides in the long term. If you sells that it'll be only increased, so the negotiations will be easier.
If the company wants to set 'work from office' culture and my WFH attitude will be hard for them, my position will have 'negative effect on the team'. I think it's always better to understand all the effects beforehand to better negotiate.
In the end of the day it's all about the value your team provides in the long term. If you sells that it'll be only increased, so the negotiations will be easier.
This blog post gives a lot of good pointers in favor of WFH. Our startup was founded during the pandemic, and we've managed to grow, recruit and build the product, all while working remotely >>> https://komodor.com/popular/how-i-learned-to-stop-worrying-a...
Hit them where their brain works - it'll reduce costs. No more air con/heating, office food, rented/bought space, rented/bought equipment (if you're self service), two+ hours each day where you're chilling out with no commute, time per day you can attend to yourself so as to reduce stress... it all adds up.
That said, I haven't seen a remote job work as well as when you're stuck in an office in the trenches, and the casual chats, the occassional "Oh, I noticed that!" moments etc. So I think a mixture is still good.
Just not the conservative 9-5/7 days grind, that's old now.
That said, I haven't seen a remote job work as well as when you're stuck in an office in the trenches, and the casual chats, the occassional "Oh, I noticed that!" moments etc. So I think a mixture is still good.
Just not the conservative 9-5/7 days grind, that's old now.
My wife had a compromised immune system so me being around a lot of sick people is an additional risk for her. So my boss said I can wfh if I want to.
You could also phrase it as an experiment where you (or some) of your team members work from home for awhile. This gives them an “out” if upper management asks questions or doesn’t like it. It also depends on your manager having enough trust from their manager, but the “experiment” angle allowed a few team members to work four days a week instead of five, get approval from HR and so on.
Go for a boil a frog approach. Figure out what you can reasonably ask for and then ask for a more. See what you land on through that negotiation and then gradually increase it. If they’re really reluctant just say “how about we trial it for a month”. Then extend the trial indefinitely.
I first asked if we could try out WFH for a day or two a week, see how it went. I was upfront that my eventual goal was, if it went well, to move out of country.
It did go well, and I did move out of country (only 1 time zone difference)
It did go well, and I did move out of country (only 1 time zone difference)
Consider a hybrid approach as a fallback? I'll come in all week every other week. Or I'll come in 2 days per week.
Your manager might be more open to that kind of an arrangement than fully remote.
Your manager might be more open to that kind of an arrangement than fully remote.
There's no convincing at my company because it's too large. They will force me back in the late summer.
The thing is a lot of companies and HR people are betting that once enough people are vaccinated we will come back to normal.
Now let me tell you about normal.
I was in South America when the new strand hit and still is hitting.
Have two close family member that got it.
1/3 of their lungs (CT Scan) was "dead".
These are the people that already got the previous Covid and recovered without any problems.
So don't worry about coming to the office.
We still have 3-4 months until new strand arrive and shake things.
The new strand does not care too much if you are obese or old.
welcome to covid-21
Now let me tell you about normal.
I was in South America when the new strand hit and still is hitting.
Have two close family member that got it.
1/3 of their lungs (CT Scan) was "dead".
These are the people that already got the previous Covid and recovered without any problems.
So don't worry about coming to the office.
We still have 3-4 months until new strand arrive and shake things.
The new strand does not care too much if you are obese or old.
welcome to covid-21
Could you come in twice in one day and then WFH on the remaining days?
Productivity. Prove it with numbers if you can :)
Others have said it but
Be effective at wfh. Take it or leave it.
Be effective at wfh. Take it or leave it.
I'm currently in a situation where my manager is telling me there is a noticeable change in my productivity (for the better) and she thinks I am a better overall employee when I'm remote. Those above her in the food chain however don't see it that way and are eager to re-fill the offices as quickly as possible without getting sued. As it stands she's telling me the best she can do for me is allow me to WFH 2 days a week, under the condition that those 2 days aren't consecutive.
The point I'm trying to make here is that sometimes it's not up to your direct report and you're at the mercy of decisions made by some suits you've never even met before. More fully remote opportunities are popping up on the job market though, and thats something all 3 aforementioned parties are aware of.
The point I'm trying to make here is that sometimes it's not up to your direct report and you're at the mercy of decisions made by some suits you've never even met before. More fully remote opportunities are popping up on the job market though, and thats something all 3 aforementioned parties are aware of.
Somewhat on a tangent, why do you want to continue WFH? I feel very energised meeting people IRL.
As an introvert, I can tell you meeting / dealing with people in person is a massive drain on my energy.
For some people, it "charges my batteries" and for others it "drains my batteries" to socialize IRL. It's really interesting, and from what I find - neither side really understands the other!
I like meeting people IRL, but sometimes it drains me. That, and work meetings have a habit of making me sleepy. There's a fair bit of formality to work meetings that seems to waste a lot of time sometimes lol.
I like that going forward at my company, we can WFH if we feel like it, or work in the office if we feel like it. Nobody's going to question it. That's pretty sweet!
I like meeting people IRL, but sometimes it drains me. That, and work meetings have a habit of making me sleepy. There's a fair bit of formality to work meetings that seems to waste a lot of time sometimes lol.
I like that going forward at my company, we can WFH if we feel like it, or work in the office if we feel like it. Nobody's going to question it. That's pretty sweet!
Exactly this, I think the key is to flexible. Sometimes the same person needs different things at different times too.