Using a Pager in the 21st Century(dmitryelj.medium.com)
dmitryelj.medium.com
Using a Pager in the 21st Century
https://dmitryelj.medium.com/howto-using-a-pager-in-the-21st-century-6a57454ecde8
146 comments
I wish someone would make a low powered cellular pager using an e-ink display, but then I realize only 3 people would use it. Pagers seem to be designed to actually wake you up if you get paged. I think the beeping hardware is different from the speaker hardware in cell phones. The vibration in phones nowadays seems weak.
The issues other people are describing with insecurity and lack of ack could also be resolved. The backend server that accepts messages could even support WCTP for backwards compatibility.
The issues other people are describing with insecurity and lack of ack could also be resolved. The backend server that accepts messages could even support WCTP for backwards compatibility.
I would use something like that.
I'm thinking of building a Pager with the pygo2 once it finally hits the market: https://pycom.io/product/pygo2/
It's got LTE-M which is perfect for this, and LoRa and SigFox as backup. A year's service is about $40
Unfortunately it's not untracked like the old pagers were but in return it should do confirmations and even replies somehow. I'll have to add a beeper/vibration motor and a stronger battery perhaps but I think it'll work.
I'm thinking of building a Pager with the pygo2 once it finally hits the market: https://pycom.io/product/pygo2/
It's got LTE-M which is perfect for this, and LoRa and SigFox as backup. A year's service is about $40
Unfortunately it's not untracked like the old pagers were but in return it should do confirmations and even replies somehow. I'll have to add a beeper/vibration motor and a stronger battery perhaps but I think it'll work.
The other problem with a cellular pager is that it permits the network operator to know the device's approximate location whenever it is powered on.
Couldn't you just get a router running some type of *nix (pfSense, DD-WRT, etc) and accomplish this via cron? Maybe perform a dig on whatever API endpoints you still want to talk to (PagerDuty, Slack) then have a set of ACLs that only allows traffic to those on the WAN interface during your "blackout" period?
Does this really seem easier than a simple timer?
"When you have root, everything is a cron job."
BSOH proverb
BSOH proverb
Probably not easier, but it is free and much more configurable.
I get that learning is priceless and all of that good stuff, but at some point $5 is worth implementing an idea in 1 minute over several hours (assuming op actually has a router that's DD-WRT compatible)
This is peak Hacker News right here lmao
To elaborate on my snark, this doesn't work because:
- Whitelisting my messaging app means I'd still get pinged for non-emergency messages
- Enforcing the block at the software level makes it too easy for me to disable it when the temptation arises. My current setup forces me to walk upstairs, flip the switch, then wait multiple minutes for the router to boot.
It would also take a lot more effort to set up, and time is money!
- Whitelisting my messaging app means I'd still get pinged for non-emergency messages
- Enforcing the block at the software level makes it too easy for me to disable it when the temptation arises. My current setup forces me to walk upstairs, flip the switch, then wait multiple minutes for the router to boot.
It would also take a lot more effort to set up, and time is money!
>Total cost for phone and 1000 SMS messages is <$100.
That's a good plan. Tracfone is roughly $10 a month for a smartphone, but what I wish existed was (a) a really cheap device and plan that was SMS-only and (b) people would only use SMS.
I'm damn sick of Fidelity leaving messages for no doubt wondrous investment advice and robocalls for appliance and car warranty programs. That's 99% of the voice calls that I get.
That's a good plan. Tracfone is roughly $10 a month for a smartphone, but what I wish existed was (a) a really cheap device and plan that was SMS-only and (b) people would only use SMS.
I'm damn sick of Fidelity leaving messages for no doubt wondrous investment advice and robocalls for appliance and car warranty programs. That's 99% of the voice calls that I get.
Here's a solution for $60/year, plus the cost of whatever budget Android device you want or have on hand:
A year of unlimited talk/text from Liberty Wireless (a T-Mobile MVNO) costs $60.^1 Then, use call barring/do not disturb to disable incoming calls and USSD codes^2 to turn off call forwarding. You now have a phone number that effectively only supports SMS.
I'd also recommend going with this plan if you are addicted to the Internet and just want a phone, but don't want to pay through the nose for something like the Punkt^3.
As far as only using SMS, sending/forwarding emails through SMS is doable (for now), so if your people's comms can be converted to email, you can use SMS for those as well.
Unfortunately, the naive solution of sending outgoing mail requires MMS (and therefore data), but you can send SMS to a Google Voice number, for example, which can be set up to forward a copy of the message to an email, which can then be used for triggering control events locally. YMMV.
---
1 - https://www.ebay.com/itm/174582899616
2 - https://www.t-mobile.com/support/plans-features/self-service...
3 - https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp02-4g-mobile-phone/
A year of unlimited talk/text from Liberty Wireless (a T-Mobile MVNO) costs $60.^1 Then, use call barring/do not disturb to disable incoming calls and USSD codes^2 to turn off call forwarding. You now have a phone number that effectively only supports SMS.
I'd also recommend going with this plan if you are addicted to the Internet and just want a phone, but don't want to pay through the nose for something like the Punkt^3.
As far as only using SMS, sending/forwarding emails through SMS is doable (for now), so if your people's comms can be converted to email, you can use SMS for those as well.
Unfortunately, the naive solution of sending outgoing mail requires MMS (and therefore data), but you can send SMS to a Google Voice number, for example, which can be set up to forward a copy of the message to an email, which can then be used for triggering control events locally. YMMV.
---
1 - https://www.ebay.com/itm/174582899616
2 - https://www.t-mobile.com/support/plans-features/self-service...
3 - https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/mp02-4g-mobile-phone/
Assuming you are in the US or want a US number, I recommend Google Voice and turn on spam protection.
While the SMS integration is going away soon, you will still be able to use (I think) SMS from within the app and while the terms of service disallow automation, my understanding is that is mostly only for outgoing texts (they don't want Google Voice users spamming the world) rather than incoming (I don't see why Google Voice would be against you doing whatever you want with the texts you receive).
I suspect the reason why carriers allow these spam calls and texts is they make money from all calls and texts and have no incentive to fix things.
While the SMS integration is going away soon, you will still be able to use (I think) SMS from within the app and while the terms of service disallow automation, my understanding is that is mostly only for outgoing texts (they don't want Google Voice users spamming the world) rather than incoming (I don't see why Google Voice would be against you doing whatever you want with the texts you receive).
I suspect the reason why carriers allow these spam calls and texts is they make money from all calls and texts and have no incentive to fix things.
"While the SMS integration is going away soon" - thank you for the warning!
https://www.androidpolice.com/2021/03/09/google-voice-wont-f...
I use SMS-via-email very frequently, and was rather worried. Thankfully that will stay.
SMS forwarding to a local number's SMS hasn't been possible for me anyway, because my local number is not in the US. At one point I had a setup with Google Calendar forwarding my emails to SMS, but that got shut down in 2019 (to my dismay).
https://www.ghacks.net/2018/11/19/google-removes-sms-notific...
https://www.androidpolice.com/2021/03/09/google-voice-wont-f...
I use SMS-via-email very frequently, and was rather worried. Thankfully that will stay.
SMS forwarding to a local number's SMS hasn't been possible for me anyway, because my local number is not in the US. At one point I had a setup with Google Calendar forwarding my emails to SMS, but that got shut down in 2019 (to my dismay).
https://www.ghacks.net/2018/11/19/google-removes-sms-notific...
A very important note: Pages are plaintext, they are not encrypted. Anyone with a radio can receive and decode all pages sent within reception range of that radio.
(which is evident when you read the article, but not called out explicitly)
This is a big deal for any use which involves private/sensitive/confidential data, as it can inform eavesdroppers about current issues, internal tools/architecture, personnel status, etc.
For example, do you want to know when a major cloud company is having an internal outage? Listen for pages which follow their internal notification format. Or maybe you want to know if a critical patient at a hospital is having troubles - listen for pages to their doctor. Does the military command center use pagers (I hope not) - that could be interesting too...
If your employer is using pagers, raise this issue to their security team (and share this great page showing how easy it is to eavesdrop). At the least, the pager messages should be as vague/simple as possible while still being useful. At the best...don't use pagers.
Pagers are already a poor choice - messages are delivered "with best effort" but there's no guaranteed sending, no receipt, no retries. If you're out of range (or signal blocked), the message is lost, and it's up to the sender to implement their own ack & retry system.
(I carried a pager for work for almost 15yrs)
(which is evident when you read the article, but not called out explicitly)
This is a big deal for any use which involves private/sensitive/confidential data, as it can inform eavesdroppers about current issues, internal tools/architecture, personnel status, etc.
For example, do you want to know when a major cloud company is having an internal outage? Listen for pages which follow their internal notification format. Or maybe you want to know if a critical patient at a hospital is having troubles - listen for pages to their doctor. Does the military command center use pagers (I hope not) - that could be interesting too...
If your employer is using pagers, raise this issue to their security team (and share this great page showing how easy it is to eavesdrop). At the least, the pager messages should be as vague/simple as possible while still being useful. At the best...don't use pagers.
Pagers are already a poor choice - messages are delivered "with best effort" but there's no guaranteed sending, no receipt, no retries. If you're out of range (or signal blocked), the message is lost, and it's up to the sender to implement their own ack & retry system.
(I carried a pager for work for almost 15yrs)
My employer (a large healthcare company) has been shown over and over that they're broadcasting PHI in the clear over pagers, and that this is bad, and their response every time has been "the paging company assures us it is secure". Evidence doesn't matter, only the word 'secure' in their contract with the paging company does, so it's "not their fault".
Worse. If you show that it's trivially insecure, you are now the suspect/perpetrator.
Never break these illusions. Keep your mouth shut.
Never break these illusions. Keep your mouth shut.
Even as the dedicated security contact whose job is it to test this shit, you will be looked at as a dickhead for pointing that we just spent 30k on something we can't use.
I once asked a med student why pagers continued to see use in a medical setting over mobile phones.
The response: doctors could use a phone to receive urgent notifications but the lower delivery guarantee for messages meant that they wouldn't be covered by their hospital's malpractice insurance for cases arising from late or non receipt of messages.
Not sure if true but could be a strong incentive to ignore security complaints.
The response: doctors could use a phone to receive urgent notifications but the lower delivery guarantee for messages meant that they wouldn't be covered by their hospital's malpractice insurance for cases arising from late or non receipt of messages.
Not sure if true but could be a strong incentive to ignore security complaints.
>Pagers are already a poor choice - messages are delivered "with best effort" but there's no guaranteed sending, no receipt, no retries.
They were pretty good towards the end of their reign when 2-way pagers came out. We were able to easily implement something where the system would keep paging you until you responded with an "I've got it" ack or a "Hand it off to the secondary" response, both of them an easy pick-list item.
They were pretty good towards the end of their reign when 2-way pagers came out. We were able to easily implement something where the system would keep paging you until you responded with an "I've got it" ack or a "Hand it off to the secondary" response, both of them an easy pick-list item.
When did we all become so paranoid?
Pagers used to be used by millions of people, in thousands of companies. 99.999% of the messages sent would have been utterly mundane. Stuff like 'call the office' or 'go to place x'.
Just like our chat platforms of today, the data just isn't that interesting.
Pagers were good for the era they were invented for, and at scale ended up being almost free to operate for the companies that used them.
Encrypting stuff requires CPU grunt that pagers simply did not have, especially when the driver was to have as long battery life as possible.
If anything, I miss that simpler era when we didn't have to assume that everybody in the chain was a bad actor trying steal our information.
Pagers used to be used by millions of people, in thousands of companies. 99.999% of the messages sent would have been utterly mundane. Stuff like 'call the office' or 'go to place x'.
Just like our chat platforms of today, the data just isn't that interesting.
Pagers were good for the era they were invented for, and at scale ended up being almost free to operate for the companies that used them.
Encrypting stuff requires CPU grunt that pagers simply did not have, especially when the driver was to have as long battery life as possible.
If anything, I miss that simpler era when we didn't have to assume that everybody in the chain was a bad actor trying steal our information.
Even Caesar encrypted his pages.
We didn’t assume because of ignorance. Innocence lost.
Plenty of people were listening - there’s an archive from 9/11/01 that was released with many of the pages in lower Manhattan that day.
Police routinely monitored this stuff, and it’s reputed that PIs, ambulance chasing attorneys, etc did the same. Was it relevant/meaningful to when my mom was going to pick me up from work at the mall was a page? Probably not.
Plenty of people were listening - there’s an archive from 9/11/01 that was released with many of the pages in lower Manhattan that day.
Police routinely monitored this stuff, and it’s reputed that PIs, ambulance chasing attorneys, etc did the same. Was it relevant/meaningful to when my mom was going to pick me up from work at the mall was a page? Probably not.
> When did we all become so paranoid?
One industry that makes extensive use of pagers is health care. Frequently, personal and identifying information (PII) is transmitted over pages. By all rights, this is a violation of privacy laws (e.g. HIPAA).
Why does a desire for privacy constitute paranoia?
Pagers aren't only a technology of yesteryear -- they're still in use by millions of hospital staff. Despite the availability of cheap & easy strong crypto today, the technology is still stuck in the past. I'd wonder why, but upgrading infrastructure is expensive and it will probably take a class-action suit to make continued privacy violations more expensive than upgrades.
One industry that makes extensive use of pagers is health care. Frequently, personal and identifying information (PII) is transmitted over pages. By all rights, this is a violation of privacy laws (e.g. HIPAA).
Why does a desire for privacy constitute paranoia?
Pagers aren't only a technology of yesteryear -- they're still in use by millions of hospital staff. Despite the availability of cheap & easy strong crypto today, the technology is still stuck in the past. I'd wonder why, but upgrading infrastructure is expensive and it will probably take a class-action suit to make continued privacy violations more expensive than upgrades.
[deleted]
>> I'd wonder why
I'm a doctor, and whilst I despise carrying a pager it does have some benefits over more modern alternatives in some scenarios.
Mobile (cell) reception in hospitals is generally very poor and wifi connectivity is also generally poor. Trying to rely on either of those to deliver critical communication (e.g. bleeps to the crash team to respond to a cardiac arrest) is more unreliable than the hospital blasting a simple radio signal that any pagers within a few mile radius will always receive and decode appropriately.
For less critical communications (e.g. where you might bleep someone to contact them to a refer a patient to their specialty) there is a (slow) move towards messaging apps or email. These solutions do not yet have the immediacy and reliability of a simple pager for critical applications.
I'm a doctor, and whilst I despise carrying a pager it does have some benefits over more modern alternatives in some scenarios.
Mobile (cell) reception in hospitals is generally very poor and wifi connectivity is also generally poor. Trying to rely on either of those to deliver critical communication (e.g. bleeps to the crash team to respond to a cardiac arrest) is more unreliable than the hospital blasting a simple radio signal that any pagers within a few mile radius will always receive and decode appropriately.
For less critical communications (e.g. where you might bleep someone to contact them to a refer a patient to their specialty) there is a (slow) move towards messaging apps or email. These solutions do not yet have the immediacy and reliability of a simple pager for critical applications.
I'm curious about the use of pagers in healthcare. I work in an industry that would love to have pagers for on call events, but service has proven unreliable (especially indoors) unless you build out your own dedicated wireless infrastructure for every building you are working in.
We have alternative secure voice/data communication, but they tend to either be bulky or have strict storage and carry restrictions.
Would love a small reliable pager system to carry on our person that would simply let us know to check in.
All of the pager architecture in the US seems to have disappeared in the marketplace.
We have alternative secure voice/data communication, but they tend to either be bulky or have strict storage and carry restrictions.
Would love a small reliable pager system to carry on our person that would simply let us know to check in.
All of the pager architecture in the US seems to have disappeared in the marketplace.
Seems like it'd be a plausible (small) business idea. A $10 SDR stick with a piece of wire as an antenna is enough to pick up pager signals, and I doubt you'd need a much more advanced setup to transmit. A 100 or 400 MHz license in the US costs maybe $500 for a decade. Mounted at the right spot, you wouldnt need much power to cover a large area with a single transmitter, though basements are always going to be trouble.
I'm curious what personal health information would be transmitted via a pager anyway? I assume a doctor would only need to know a room number and maybe code or chief complaint in the page?
I see other commenters mentioning some PHI is being shared via pagers and I am unclear what that may be ?
I see other commenters mentioning some PHI is being shared via pagers and I am unclear what that may be ?
In my experience (UK) there is no personal information transmitted. There are two main types of bleeps:
1. Sending the number of a telephone extension you want the recipient of the bleep to call. For example, if I need a cardiology opinion, I will bleep the cardiologist with a telephone extension and wait for them to (hopefully) call back while I am still but he phone and before it is called by anyone else. This data is not sensitive. These are the types of bleeps which are being replaced slowly by asynchronous communication via apps
2. Emergency bleeps which are designed to alert a specific group of people on the arrest team to respond to an emergency. These usually work quite differently. Instead of 1:1 they are 1:many and usually carry a different alert tone, followed by a (generally poor quality) audio alert of the operator saying something like "paediatric cardiac arrest inbound to ED, ETA, 5 minutes". Again these carry no sensitive data.
1. Sending the number of a telephone extension you want the recipient of the bleep to call. For example, if I need a cardiology opinion, I will bleep the cardiologist with a telephone extension and wait for them to (hopefully) call back while I am still but he phone and before it is called by anyone else. This data is not sensitive. These are the types of bleeps which are being replaced slowly by asynchronous communication via apps
2. Emergency bleeps which are designed to alert a specific group of people on the arrest team to respond to an emergency. These usually work quite differently. Instead of 1:1 they are 1:many and usually carry a different alert tone, followed by a (generally poor quality) audio alert of the operator saying something like "paediatric cardiac arrest inbound to ED, ETA, 5 minutes". Again these carry no sensitive data.
Yeah from what I have heard from Canadian based doctors the pagers are used for almost identically the same as what you described for the UK.
Pagers get used for PII, and if somebody thinks it doesn't happen, they're simply confident that their experience is representative. It happens, and quite frequently, in Canada.
https://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/id/security/news/vulnerabil...
https://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/id/security/news/vulnerabil...
Yeah what you linked me to talks about I believe the same case another user already linked to. It was more correct for me to say I was speaking more about the Ontario, Canada healthcare system as that is the one I work within. The healthcare systems are mostly run at the provincial level so it can be hard to talk about the countries healthcare as a whole as it can often vary province to province.
I’ve listened to pages in large Canadian cities in the past for fun. Pages at the local hospital often included patient names and diagnosis or analysis results.
Yeah from what it sounds like there were some incidents in the news in BC in 2019 and it sounds like a lot of hospitals may have adopted new procedures since then? Not sure if you've been listening to any recent ones?
It's kinda hard also to figure out which areas may be doing it and which aren't as the different provinces are kinda run independently.
It's kinda hard also to figure out which areas may be doing it and which aren't as the different provinces are kinda run independently.
Yes that was before 2019 so maybe it has changed now.
here's an article with examples: https://www.kansascity.com/news/business/health-care/article...
basically, they broadcast patient name, initial diagnosis etc
basically, they broadcast patient name, initial diagnosis etc
Weird, as the other commenter mentioned their's in the UK don't have patient information in them. In fact the medical professional I know in Canada have pagers that give essentially the same information about the UK commenters. It's either an extension to call, or for a code.
Maybe countries like the UK and Canada are more strict about personal health information and have kept personal info out of pagers? I know working in healthcare systems in Canada I would get in trouble even if I used a medical software to look myself up in it.
Maybe countries like the UK and Canada are more strict about personal health information and have kept personal info out of pagers? I know working in healthcare systems in Canada I would get in trouble even if I used a medical software to look myself up in it.
Here's a Canada example (apparently patient transport coordination, fixed after media attention): https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/pager-systems-used-in-healthca...
Ah, interesting. The only people I've actually talked to before about the pagers were from Ontario and the healthcare is mostly managed at the provincial level. So not sure if this was a problem in Ontario or not. I am sure at some point all the hospitals were doing this and eventually switched over to the new way that doesn't do this.
However being a 911 dispatcher for the EMS system here I can say that our radios are not encrypted and can be listened to online by anyone. We mention addresses, chief complaints, and anything else that may be relevant for the paramedics. Patient names would not be given over radios nor would other private info like if the building has an access code. Anything that is private like that is indicated to the paramedics by saying something like "call for access code". Then they call the landline and get the info that way.
In my opinion though, knowing addresses and medical conditions going on can still be a bit sensitive in nature. The police here recently switched to encrypted radios. It was nice sometimes to listen to the scanner, but at the same time it's understandable why it's less than ideal having open radios.
However being a 911 dispatcher for the EMS system here I can say that our radios are not encrypted and can be listened to online by anyone. We mention addresses, chief complaints, and anything else that may be relevant for the paramedics. Patient names would not be given over radios nor would other private info like if the building has an access code. Anything that is private like that is indicated to the paramedics by saying something like "call for access code". Then they call the landline and get the info that way.
In my opinion though, knowing addresses and medical conditions going on can still be a bit sensitive in nature. The police here recently switched to encrypted radios. It was nice sometimes to listen to the scanner, but at the same time it's understandable why it's less than ideal having open radios.
If you reread me, you'll find my "why" isn't "why use pagers", it's "why don't pagers implement even basic crypto"
Ah yes - sorry, I read that too quickly. The answer to that (at least limited to my experience of pagers in many UK hospitals) is that they don't carry any sensitive data at all.
There are a lot of other issues with them though. There are few companies supplying them so they are actually very expensive. Consequently in our publicly funded health service they are not replaced often and many are in a poor state with batteries held in by tape etc.
The main issues from perspective as a user is the synchronous model of communication that they enforce. Unless something is an emergency, it's an unnecessarily disruptive workflow.
There are usually a limited number of phones on a ward, which are usually very busy lines. Using pagers for routine communication means:
1. Physically move myself to a location with a phone 2. Wait for phone to be free 3. Call a number to send the bleep 4. Wait for a response (bearing in mind the recipient needs to be free, move to a phone, wait for that phone to be free, and call back) 5. Guard the phone from others using it until I receive the call 6. Hope that no one else calls the phone in the meantime
Bearing in mind that everyone is always busy in hospital this is a huge source of frustration and wasted time, hence the move towards secure messaging apps for these scenarios. Unfortunately these are mostly being built as silos rather than interoperable communication networks.
As mentioned above, for actually alerting a group of people to an emergency when you need an immediate response, pagers are still hard to beat.
There are a lot of other issues with them though. There are few companies supplying them so they are actually very expensive. Consequently in our publicly funded health service they are not replaced often and many are in a poor state with batteries held in by tape etc.
The main issues from perspective as a user is the synchronous model of communication that they enforce. Unless something is an emergency, it's an unnecessarily disruptive workflow.
There are usually a limited number of phones on a ward, which are usually very busy lines. Using pagers for routine communication means:
1. Physically move myself to a location with a phone 2. Wait for phone to be free 3. Call a number to send the bleep 4. Wait for a response (bearing in mind the recipient needs to be free, move to a phone, wait for that phone to be free, and call back) 5. Guard the phone from others using it until I receive the call 6. Hope that no one else calls the phone in the meantime
Bearing in mind that everyone is always busy in hospital this is a huge source of frustration and wasted time, hence the move towards secure messaging apps for these scenarios. Unfortunately these are mostly being built as silos rather than interoperable communication networks.
As mentioned above, for actually alerting a group of people to an emergency when you need an immediate response, pagers are still hard to beat.
Well one thing that is a difference is that receiving paging feeds was not as trivial back then as it is now.
Grab a $10 rtlsdr and free software and you're set. Back in the 90s you needed serious hardware to do this.
Grab a $10 rtlsdr and free software and you're set. Back in the 90s you needed serious hardware to do this.
How much CPU does it require, realistically, to implement an asymmetric + XOR cipher? Each pager would have a key pair provisioned by the provider. The provider would generate a unique key for each message and then use the pager's public key to encrypt that and send it along with the XOR-ed message. I'd bet you could decrypt that on a weak-ass microcontroller.
Paging never really passed 1980s technology. Sure, its easy enough to en/decrypt short messages now with nearly zero battery use, but it was probably deemed unnecessary at the time.
edit: looks like someone bolted AES onto FLEX: https://americanmessaging.net/elite/
edit: looks like someone bolted AES onto FLEX: https://americanmessaging.net/elite/
Paging was also highly interested in making sure every bit that went over the air generated revenue, so adding bits to provide security was a hard sell. FLEX and ReFLEX are 90's technology.
It used to be pretty difficult to capture, record and process all that data. Now you can do it yourself for next to nothing. And so can anyone else.
It has been possible to get encrypted pagers in the U.S. for some time now. This clearly doesn't mean everyone adopts it.
One issue he doesn't talk about is that the sender can never for sure know that the pager received the message.
At one point I was interested to know if there were versions of the paging technology (for some critical application?) that tried to solve this by issuing multiple redundant messages over some amount of time, and the pager ignoring the redundant ones after the 1st one had been received?
Also would be interesting to hear how the many companies "divided up" cities, etc. to create a network.
I remember there used to be some convoluted way of dialing into a pager service and keying the numbers/text that you wanted to be shown on the recipient's screen, but have long forgotten it.
At one point I was interested to know if there were versions of the paging technology (for some critical application?) that tried to solve this by issuing multiple redundant messages over some amount of time, and the pager ignoring the redundant ones after the 1st one had been received?
Also would be interesting to hear how the many companies "divided up" cities, etc. to create a network.
I remember there used to be some convoluted way of dialing into a pager service and keying the numbers/text that you wanted to be shown on the recipient's screen, but have long forgotten it.
"That’s it. It’s a one-way communication, there is no confirmation sending back, the pager has only the receiver and no transmitter at all."
Implies the issue of not knowing if the message is received.
> At one point I was interested to know if there were versions of the paging technology (for some critical application?) that tried to solve this by issuing multiple redundant messages over some amount of time, and the pager ignoring the redundant ones after the 1st one had been received?
This is in fact how pagers work.
This is in fact how pagers work.
Possibly for older networks - the remining one in the UK does encrypt.
I used to have a basic pager in the 80's when I was on call for BT / Dialcom
I used to have a basic pager in the 80's when I was on call for BT / Dialcom
One of the last gasp paging technologies was two way paging, which included a slow return channel to confirm message reception.
My dad is a doctor and has had pagers the entire time, from the bulky brick one you can see Dr. Beeper using in Caddyshack to the ones you’d see in this article.
Outside of work, I’ve actually had to page him a few times: my family has season tickets for Northwestern Wildcats football games, and he has the tickets. If I arrive to the game late, I’d need to call or page him to come down and give me the tickets. It’s not a problem when the opponent is a small school that doesn’t travel well, but when a school like Nebraska or Ohio State show up in Evanston, cell service goes to shit (imagine having 47000 people in a suburban neighborhood).
I page him and it works like a charm.
Outside of work, I’ve actually had to page him a few times: my family has season tickets for Northwestern Wildcats football games, and he has the tickets. If I arrive to the game late, I’d need to call or page him to come down and give me the tickets. It’s not a problem when the opponent is a small school that doesn’t travel well, but when a school like Nebraska or Ohio State show up in Evanston, cell service goes to shit (imagine having 47000 people in a suburban neighborhood).
I page him and it works like a charm.
I always thought it'd be cool if someone put a pager chipset into my smart phone so I could configure it to receive a page whenever someone was calling me and only connect to the cellular network if I wanted to take the call.
I honestly thought this was going to be about alternatives to less and more.
> In the 90th
What does that mean?
The only time I've had to use a pager was to support a static data server for an investment bank (partly written by me) which was used by London, Tokyo, HK and NY. Being woken up in the middle of the night I could take (grumpily) but logging on to the bank's systems from home was a thing of Byzantine horror. Anyway, we re-wrote the scripts to page someone who would be at the desk in the appropriate timezone, and all they normally had to do was the classic "turn it off and on again" reboot of the server, or phone one of us in London in extremis.
What does that mean?
The only time I've had to use a pager was to support a static data server for an investment bank (partly written by me) which was used by London, Tokyo, HK and NY. Being woken up in the middle of the night I could take (grumpily) but logging on to the bank's systems from home was a thing of Byzantine horror. Anyway, we re-wrote the scripts to page someone who would be at the desk in the appropriate timezone, and all they normally had to do was the classic "turn it off and on again" reboot of the server, or phone one of us in London in extremis.
It seems a typo for "In the 90s".
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I would like to use a pager-like device as a grocery shopping list. But a pager isn't quite what I'm looking for (I think).
Basically, I need a small device that can fit in a pocket, with a long battery life, a simple display, and a few buttons. Bonus points if it's cheap and easily hackable.
What are the options?
Basically, I need a small device that can fit in a pocket, with a long battery life, a simple display, and a few buttons. Bonus points if it's cheap and easily hackable.
What are the options?
If you don’t mind a bit of work, you could look into one of the DIY smart watches on hackaday or whatever. Since you don’t need a watch form factor, that should give you a little extra room in terms of size or components. I found them a little too bulky as a watch for my taste, but they might work as a pager-like device.
You reminded me of Watchy[1] (which I completely forgot about). It is a good contender.
[1]: https://watchy.sqfmi.com/
[1]: https://watchy.sqfmi.com/
This sounds exactly like an older palm pilot.
They used ram for persistent storage because the battery life was so long (due to a very slow dragon ball CPU and those dot-matrix displays.)
The palm III was probably one of the best hand-held computers ever made, if there were a way to put a modern modem in it to get texts I would probably use that instead of my phone.
They used ram for persistent storage because the battery life was so long (due to a very slow dragon ball CPU and those dot-matrix displays.)
The palm III was probably one of the best hand-held computers ever made, if there were a way to put a modern modem in it to get texts I would probably use that instead of my phone.
I actually had a pager add-on PCB in my Palm Pilot. Worked great.
How about a small notepad made of paper? What would be the benefit of a "pager-like device" over it?
> What would be the benefit of a "pager-like device" over it?
- Adding items remotely
- Automatic item sorting
- Pre-made lists
- Adding items remotely
- Automatic item sorting
- Pre-made lists
What about a raspberry pi + thermal receipt printer? You could have a way (or several ways) to add items remotely and automatically sort items and then print the list just as you’re about to head into the store. And with thermal receipt tape you could mark off that you’ve got the item in your cart with your fingernail.
Interesting idea. I'll keep that in mind.
Palm Pilot? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PalmPilot
Not exactly, I'm looking for something more minimalist.
I would love for a modern low-power LCD/e-ink palmtop, but sadly I haven't seen the likes of it since the old Psions.
this is my dream! I used to use a Pebble watch for grocery lists, but the display is just too small for a larger list.
It would be fantastic to have something that is basically a half-sized palm pilot (say, 4" tall, 2" wide), eink/memory lcd, and the ability to rotate (not automatically.) There's probably a digital price tag that could work for the screen.
When I was using my Pebbles more often, it was great to be out and never check my phone for anything. Back in the day we could have set responses -- but as the years go on, we lose some functionality. The Rebble project will probably fix this one day.
It would be fantastic to have something that is basically a half-sized palm pilot (say, 4" tall, 2" wide), eink/memory lcd, and the ability to rotate (not automatically.) There's probably a digital price tag that could work for the screen.
When I was using my Pebbles more often, it was great to be out and never check my phone for anything. Back in the day we could have set responses -- but as the years go on, we lose some functionality. The Rebble project will probably fix this one day.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but have you considered going back to paper?
After unending frustration with Siri and grocery lists, I just went back to paper. It works brilliantly. The "shared list" is my wife texting me things to add to the list, and I immediately take the piece of paper out of my wallet and write stuff on it.
I've been using phones, computers, PDA's, and electronic organizers for grocery lists for decades, and none have worked as well, or been as useful as a piece of folded paper.
After unending frustration with Siri and grocery lists, I just went back to paper. It works brilliantly. The "shared list" is my wife texting me things to add to the list, and I immediately take the piece of paper out of my wallet and write stuff on it.
I've been using phones, computers, PDA's, and electronic organizers for grocery lists for decades, and none have worked as well, or been as useful as a piece of folded paper.
I have always used paper.
But there are some things I would like to improve, see [1].
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27016068
But there are some things I would like to improve, see [1].
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27016068
The return of the "Hipster PDA" (speaking as one who did this for a few years).
I believe see also "bullet journal."
I believe see also "bullet journal."
May I ask why you don't want to use a phone? You don't want to carry/look at it for the other stuff that a phone has?
Phones are generally too bulky for my liking. I prefer to have something simple and light. And I care way less if it's stolen or lost.
Is pickpocketing still a thing? My perception is that between wallets full of plastic and phones that can be remotely locked, it has almost completely disappeared. I remember being told to be wary in crowded places as a kid, but nowadays I'm very careless and nothing happens.
Bike thefts though, they are a serious issue that I plan my life around.
Bike thefts though, they are a serious issue that I plan my life around.
Note that crime in the US overall has gone wayyyy down since you were likely a kid. We're at Leave It To Beaver levels.
Overall yes, single states no.
https://www.safehome.org/resources/crime-statistics-by-state...
You should try to find something more .gov to link to for statistics, rather than a PR company that flogs home security systems and devices.
How about this, from the Portland, Oregon police dept .gov domain: https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/81203
It doesn't help that Portland de-funded the gang enforcement team a while ago. It also doesn't help that some are agitating to abolish the police entirely.
Now Portland is making a big deal of getting FBI and state help to deal with this growing problem.
Yes, it's an anecdote, but you can find many similar anecdotes from all around the country.
January 2019, 32 shootings
January 2020, 50 shootings
January 2021, 104 shootings
It doesn't help that Portland de-funded the gang enforcement team a while ago. It also doesn't help that some are agitating to abolish the police entirely.
Now Portland is making a big deal of getting FBI and state help to deal with this growing problem.
Yes, it's an anecdote, but you can find many similar anecdotes from all around the country.
And yet a lot of people think that it's gone up because of skewed reporting.
Depends on the state where you live. If you live in New Mexico it doesn't matter if the crime rate in Mew York goes down.
https://www.safehome.org/resources/crime-statistics-by-state...
If your of an older demographic, that may potentially have a wad of cash, pickpocketing is still very much a problem. Especially in tourist spots.
Oddly the Vatican has a high crime rate because of this
In 2019, I had my phone and wallet stolen in Barcelona via pickpocketing. I know of someone who had their wallet stolen in the Madrid subway the same way. I’ve not heard of it recently in the US though.
The wallets full of plastic remark doesn't really apply in Spain, where tons more people carry real amounts of cash.
Lol you have never been to Barcelona I gather. Pickpocketing is a huge business here. I say business because Spanish law doesn't allow to prosecute them (only fines for thefts up to €400) so lots of scumbags basically make it their job.
When my wallet was pickpocketed I searched the bins in the nearby metro stations and found 6 wallets with ID cards etc and many phone cases (a stolen phone is much less identifiable without its case). Sadly I never found mine. I live here so I'm used to it but even then they can catch you off-guard.
When my wallet was pickpocketed I searched the bins in the nearby metro stations and found 6 wallets with ID cards etc and many phone cases (a stolen phone is much less identifiable without its case). Sadly I never found mine. I live here so I'm used to it but even then they can catch you off-guard.
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Find an old palm pilot on eBay with a refurbished battery. Instant digital notebook for the cost of a few dollars/pounds.
Might as well go for one of the even older models that ran on 2xAAA. Not like you're losing compatibility with modern hardware.
I like the idea of the Lightphone 2. E ink display and minimal functionality. Plus it’s small and has a long battery life.
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I use a pager. AMA
Why? Have you considered replacing it?
Just curious :)
Just curious :)
As an add-on to your smartphone? I like the idea of using a pager, not for the sake of romanticizing old tech, but to reduce the mental overload of being constantly online.
Yes. I got it two years ago since I hate my phone and having to always worry its charged etc. Pager takes 1 AA that lasts about a month. Its hooked into work to ping me if I need to flip out my laptop. Dead reliable and the service is great.
I have considered doing this exact thing. Any tips?
One thing I've wondered about is if there is even any pager network coverage where I live. I suspect yes but I don't know of any coverage maps or that sort of thing.
One thing I've wondered about is if there is even any pager network coverage where I live. I suspect yes but I don't know of any coverage maps or that sort of thing.
Coverage is good in all us metro areas. directpage has good coverage maps as there's basically only two networks these days
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How much is a pager and service these days? Who provides the service?
Its ~$10 a month. The pagers are free with my service. I use direct page but I forget which network I am on, never had a problem! with service even out in Amish Country
That's a really decent price. If it was still available here in Spain I'd get one. I like the off-grid feeling while still being reachable in emergencies.
When I read or hear of a pager it gives the connotation of an on-call. Usually 24x7 on-call (even if it’s for a week). And I have had so many bad experiences with on-calls that I see pagers in complete negative light.
This article is great.
I use a pager for work, as it’s the only device allowed in some sensitive areas.
When it get paged while I’m out and about I get the strangest looks, like I’m some sort of time traveler.
Does it work while you're out and about? My understanding was they were generally limited to a small range, like the area inside and near a major hospital.
Not at all. There are a some very large pager networks in the US. As a bonus, since the messages are so simple, they have better penetration in a given area than GSM would. (I've had my pager go off in a deep parking garage for example).
Ex, here are the coverage maps for SPOK who bought out USA Mobility: https://www.spok.com/solutions/paging-services/wide-area-pag...
Ex, here are the coverage maps for SPOK who bought out USA Mobility: https://www.spok.com/solutions/paging-services/wide-area-pag...
The only problem is there’s no indication on the pager whether or not you’re in range, and no way to know whether you missed a page due to being out of range.
At the same time, the reason they’re still used is there’s no good modern alternative in a lot of ways (battery life, range).
Troubleshooting paging issues is one thing I do not miss from my time in healthcare I.T.
At the same time, the reason they’re still used is there’s no good modern alternative in a lot of ways (battery life, range).
Troubleshooting paging issues is one thing I do not miss from my time in healthcare I.T.
Even my digits-only pager had an out of range indicator. I visited some caves back in the day and it was the only time I ever saw it. You just never really saw it as the service was so good.
The only problem is there’s no indication on the pager whether or not you’re in range
The pager I had in 2003 has a signal strength indicator just like a cell phone so you know if you are in range.
The pager was also able to let the network know if the message was received. If it didn't, the network would keep retrying until it got an ACK.
The pager I had in 2003 has a signal strength indicator just like a cell phone so you know if you are in range.
The pager was also able to let the network know if the message was received. If it didn't, the network would keep retrying until it got an ACK.
Is the coverage really that bad? Looking at that map it seems like you’re really only covered inside major cities. Even somewhere like Connecticut seems to have most of the state with zero coverage!
I'm in Virginia, and I live a pretty nomadic life in an RV, never missed a page.
(I can verify because my phone and email are also set to receive alerts when Im paged.)
Back in the day many countries had nationwide paging networks. Nowhere was safe from getting a page.
You couldnt just use the 'I had no signal' excuse.
There wasn't cross country roaming for pagers though, I don't think.
You couldnt just use the 'I had no signal' excuse.
There wasn't cross country roaming for pagers though, I don't think.
There was in the United States. But it was pretty expensive.
Pagers hung in for a long time because they had far better coverage than cell phones. I don't know if that's still the case.
Pagers hung in for a long time because they had far better coverage than cell phones. I don't know if that's still the case.
It's partly because of the low frequencies used that penetrated buildings better. My pager was 159Mhz.
At those frequencies you have significantly less bandwidth but pages were expensive so they weren't used for idle chitchat. That made it work with the low bandwidth available.
And there really wasn't that much because with one-way pagers as used in Europe, all messages had to be sent out all over the entire country! Because the network had no way of knowing in which area a pager would be. So all you had was a 2400 bit/s stream for all nationwide users. That's why they made it so expensive.
At those frequencies you have significantly less bandwidth but pages were expensive so they weren't used for idle chitchat. That made it work with the low bandwidth available.
And there really wasn't that much because with one-way pagers as used in Europe, all messages had to be sent out all over the entire country! Because the network had no way of knowing in which area a pager would be. So all you had was a 2400 bit/s stream for all nationwide users. That's why they made it so expensive.
I just looked this up for the UK, and noticed that there is still a single national paging network. I use pager at work, but, as you say, the network is limited to the site.
In Switzerland some voluntary emergency services (like firefighters) have pagers because it just works better than phone/sms. However most alsrms then still go out by phone and sms.
I use a physical pager when I’m on-call for our team. I get peace of mind knowing that I don’t need to worry about my phone being charged or being set to silent. I also prefer not having to install any work apps on my personal cellphone.
When it beeps, I hop on the computer and ack via web interface, alternatively I can ack back via sms. The whole point is that I need to be able to look at a system immediately so internet access is a requirement during oncall rotation.
It’s a single purpose device and it works great, I highly recommend it!
When it beeps, I hop on the computer and ack via web interface, alternatively I can ack back via sms. The whole point is that I need to be able to look at a system immediately so internet access is a requirement during oncall rotation.
It’s a single purpose device and it works great, I highly recommend it!
Thanks for the really interesting article. I have a (volunteer rescue) pager provided and look after a fleet of 40 for my unit. Found them far superior in actually getting the message out compared to an app, and also getting sleeping bodies mobile. AMA.
Universal Studios Hollywood was using them up to about 7 years ago? Cell service wasn't the best and they hadn't rolled out wifi everywhere so tour guides would have them to keep up on what was going on.
There's the Internet Archive for old pages (though it's not guaranteed to have them of course).
Do you have a link?
A link for what ?
I'm commenting about :
> Alas, many pages and links, created 20 years ago, are now not available — a well known “link rot” problem occurs when it’s going about things made 20 years ago.
I'm commenting about :
> Alas, many pages and links, created 20 years ago, are now not available — a well known “link rot” problem occurs when it’s going about things made 20 years ago.
My bad. I misunderstood your comment to be about an internet archive type project for pager messages.
I'm guessing that 7-bit means ASCII with no Unicode support ? (What about pagers with non-latin alphabets ?)
What about it? It's a simple device to notify someone "we want you at work" or send a very simple message. Not a chat platform.
Did you know that people who speak other languages exist? GP had a very valid concern. And yes, pagers that use other encodings do exist.
>Did you know that people who speak other languages exist?
I know it. English is not my native language, nor I reside in an English speaking country.
We still have, like all countries in the world, a latinized phonetic version of our words.
And we also can, even if we don't speak english, learn to understand a few words like "COME TO OFFICE", "FIRE ALERT", etc...
You do know, for example, that traffic towers all over the world speak to pilots, whether their country, in English?
Heck, same way people all over the world, not speaking english, nonetheless learn to use all kinds of non-localized app menus that they have to use (they just memorize and contextualize stuff like "File", "Edit", "Save as" etc).
>And yes, pagers that use other encodings do exist.
Sure, but they're not a necessity (as was implied) to use a pager in a non-english country. We got by without those in the past, even in our "not english speaking" countries...
I know it. English is not my native language, nor I reside in an English speaking country.
We still have, like all countries in the world, a latinized phonetic version of our words.
And we also can, even if we don't speak english, learn to understand a few words like "COME TO OFFICE", "FIRE ALERT", etc...
You do know, for example, that traffic towers all over the world speak to pilots, whether their country, in English?
Heck, same way people all over the world, not speaking english, nonetheless learn to use all kinds of non-localized app menus that they have to use (they just memorize and contextualize stuff like "File", "Edit", "Save as" etc).
>And yes, pagers that use other encodings do exist.
Sure, but they're not a necessity (as was implied) to use a pager in a non-english country. We got by without those in the past, even in our "not english speaking" countries...
If you're going to make people jump through so many ridiculous hoops just to use a pager then you might as well do away with the screen entirely and make it beep Morse Code.
I feel bad for the all the non-programmers in your country if this is a common attitude. Pretty much every single native English speaker agrees that the Latin alphabet is an inadequate alphabet and that it's unreasonable to force others to learn English, but for some reason programmers act like a bunch of monks defending the Vulgate Bible any time you ask them to make functioning software that supports their own fricken language.
I feel bad for the all the non-programmers in your country if this is a common attitude. Pretty much every single native English speaker agrees that the Latin alphabet is an inadequate alphabet and that it's unreasonable to force others to learn English, but for some reason programmers act like a bunch of monks defending the Vulgate Bible any time you ask them to make functioning software that supports their own fricken language.
You're assuming that it's going to be used by someone that understands English or has a latin-based native language.
Only that it's going to be used by someone who can understand a few simple symbols, be it in English or a latinized phonetic version of their language (which e.g. China, Japan, India, etc, all have).
I'm not sure about 7-bit or 8-bit, but e.g. my NEC pager supported full uppercase ASCII and, in addition, a full set of uppercase Cyrillic. Could have been KOI-7, but then some of the punctuation symbols would be missing, so I reckon it was actually using an 8-bit encoding underneath, e.g. KOI-8.
Windows-1251 is the most widely used 8-bit Cyrillic encoding in Russia.
But then there also were some very cursed Soviet encodings that only had those Cyrillic letters that don't have identically-looking Latin counterparts: https://habr.com/ru/post/547820/
But then there also were some very cursed Soviet encodings that only had those Cyrillic letters that don't have identically-looking Latin counterparts: https://habr.com/ru/post/547820/
The article shows "(7 bit/symbol)", but I guess that some pagers were more advanced ?
I was surprised to find that, as the article mentions, there's basically only one place to buy new pagers -- and they're quite expensive. After thinking about it some more, I realized that what I really wanted was a separate phone number that my team could send SMS messages to. And I didn't even need to build my own pager-like device out of a RasPi or something; I could just buy a cheap flip phone. Total cost for phone and 1000 SMS messages is <$100.