For those who can afford it, quitting has become the ultimate form of self-care(thecut.com)
thecut.com
For those who can afford it, quitting has become the ultimate form of self-care
https://www.thecut.com/2021/05/quitting-your-job-as-self-care.html
231 comments
Yeah I always cringe when I see people on LinkedIn talk about burn out and depression like it's something you can decide to "get over". A few months ago, I saw one of my old co-workers post something ignorant (she's a VP?/leader) about how if something has you down, you should only be upset for a few days and move on. I think that is a very idealistic opinion that lacks nuance and appreciation for the complexity of the human psyche. It's poor form to diminish the experiences of others.
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reddit.com/r/thanksimcured is full of this.
I've been through it. Burn out, Depression. Quit a job, six months off.
I see people doing that as taking control. We are the strong ones. We are the ones who reject the vile life that is corporate cubicles.
People who seem to be able to tolerate it have in reality just given up. They are reduced to accepting the grey cubicle and unchanging life that is working in an office.
Sure, there are some shining lights and people that thrive. But the majority of people in offices are beaten down and just trying to stay anonymous and survive.
A nervous breakdown is going on the offensive! It's screaming no more! It's taking back your life in a burst of energy that leaves you exhausted and takes time to recover from. But when you do recover, and you will, you come out better and wiser than before.
I guard my mental health like the Crown Jewels now and really try not to do anything I don't want to do!
I see people doing that as taking control. We are the strong ones. We are the ones who reject the vile life that is corporate cubicles.
People who seem to be able to tolerate it have in reality just given up. They are reduced to accepting the grey cubicle and unchanging life that is working in an office.
Sure, there are some shining lights and people that thrive. But the majority of people in offices are beaten down and just trying to stay anonymous and survive.
A nervous breakdown is going on the offensive! It's screaming no more! It's taking back your life in a burst of energy that leaves you exhausted and takes time to recover from. But when you do recover, and you will, you come out better and wiser than before.
I guard my mental health like the Crown Jewels now and really try not to do anything I don't want to do!
Yes! So much yes to this. Depression, anxiety, burnout, these are all messages from your subconscious that you need change, radical, drastic change. You need to stand up and shout to the world and to your subconscious that you won't take this shit anymore.
There are a (probably) minority of people with genuine brain chemistry imbalances, genetic or otherwise, that cause depression. But for the vast, vast majority of people being fed pills and trying to ignore their problems, your mental health issues are signs of issues you need to deal with, unresolved traumas, unfulfilling work, love, family, or social situations, political problems that you can't accept but you won't engage with, and so on.
There are a (probably) minority of people with genuine brain chemistry imbalances, genetic or otherwise, that cause depression. But for the vast, vast majority of people being fed pills and trying to ignore their problems, your mental health issues are signs of issues you need to deal with, unresolved traumas, unfulfilling work, love, family, or social situations, political problems that you can't accept but you won't engage with, and so on.
> the vile life that is corporate cubicles
I’m sorry, but this triggered me. Have you tried an open office? I long for my cubicles.
At least then I had like 4 square meters to myself. Both my space and my privacy have been degraded more and more.
I’m sorry, but this triggered me. Have you tried an open office? I long for my cubicles.
At least then I had like 4 square meters to myself. Both my space and my privacy have been degraded more and more.
Hi!
Actually I lumped in cubicles with open offices as being the same thing.
I've worked in both!
I'll try to be careful with my words here:
So I found no difference in my actual happiness or well being such.
I do agree that having a 'home' in an office is important - and a cubicle you can call your own and decorate is something...
Totally agree that open plan noisy offices are a nightmare!
Hot-desking is another level of hell again!
All things considered I dont have poisitve views of any office situation based on my now >25years of experience! (damn, has it been that long...)
But I appreciate that some people do.
So thats just me :-)
These days I get to work from my home office with my wife and it's great! :-)
Actually I lumped in cubicles with open offices as being the same thing.
I've worked in both!
I'll try to be careful with my words here:
So I found no difference in my actual happiness or well being such.
I do agree that having a 'home' in an office is important - and a cubicle you can call your own and decorate is something...
Totally agree that open plan noisy offices are a nightmare!
Hot-desking is another level of hell again!
All things considered I dont have poisitve views of any office situation based on my now >25years of experience! (damn, has it been that long...)
But I appreciate that some people do.
So thats just me :-)
These days I get to work from my home office with my wife and it's great! :-)
Coming from this direction, especially for deep work, I think the corporate choices of offices have failed so spectacularly that the current Immovable Wall of people who refuse to go off remote is one sign of inevitable fallout from chronic, multi-generational mistreatment. I count myself as one of them.
Having thrown off multiple jobs that tried to reduce me to mindless peon, I find that the attempt to force me into their paradigm is explosive and will only explode more in the future. Via me, or the countless others who see, agree, and comment on this and other threads like it. Revolutions don't have to be noisy :)
Having thrown off multiple jobs that tried to reduce me to mindless peon, I find that the attempt to force me into their paradigm is explosive and will only explode more in the future. Via me, or the countless others who see, agree, and comment on this and other threads like it. Revolutions don't have to be noisy :)
Well, yes, I have to agree there. Cubicles are only nice by comparison with an open office.
The best office I’ve had was one where we had a real room for every 4 people or so (and 20+sqm per room).
The best office I’ve had was one where we had a real room for every 4 people or so (and 20+sqm per room).
I had my own office once but then they got a "specialist" in instead of getting an extra office building that squeezed in more bodies per square feet ever thought possible - like sardines in a can.
I HATED curry days at the canteen.
Then Covid came along and could work from home but then I should have known better when they installed MS Teams and we had longer useless meetings now with fading cheapskate Bob that uses his Nokia headphones as a headset with his barking dog as background noise.
I HATED curry days at the canteen.
Then Covid came along and could work from home but then I should have known better when they installed MS Teams and we had longer useless meetings now with fading cheapskate Bob that uses his Nokia headphones as a headset with his barking dog as background noise.
Ah well, at least you can tune Bob out during the meeting and go on with your day.
I've always wondered the following:
- What precisely constitutes a burnout?
- How do you objectively differentiate between a challenging situation and over-stressed situation leading to burnout?
- What are the differences in tolerance for stressful situation from person to person? Is it related to certain personalities?
- How to conduct a self-analysis to determine if you're going through a burnout?
- Do other non-software professions go through burnout? Alternatively, is software engineering more prone to burnout?
I've always heard of burnout, but like depression which has specific symptoms and clinical diagnosis, what are the properties, symptoms and characteristics of a burnout?
I am wondering if I am going through one? I like what you said about guilt - I feel like I've gone through hell in workplaces and always curious if I should just "suck-it-in" or quit and find a better job.
- What precisely constitutes a burnout?
- How do you objectively differentiate between a challenging situation and over-stressed situation leading to burnout?
- What are the differences in tolerance for stressful situation from person to person? Is it related to certain personalities?
- How to conduct a self-analysis to determine if you're going through a burnout?
- Do other non-software professions go through burnout? Alternatively, is software engineering more prone to burnout?
I've always heard of burnout, but like depression which has specific symptoms and clinical diagnosis, what are the properties, symptoms and characteristics of a burnout?
I am wondering if I am going through one? I like what you said about guilt - I feel like I've gone through hell in workplaces and always curious if I should just "suck-it-in" or quit and find a better job.
> What precisely constitutes a burnout?
You know you're burned out when things that used to motivate you to get up early and work through lunch now feel like burdens. Not just work stuff either, but burnout it starts affecting your life outside work, on things that you thought had nothing to do with work.
> a challenging situation
You're challenged when, even if you don't know how to get through it, you have in your mind a structure, a way of getting through it. You know you can figure it out, you just have to work it out, and the process of working through it energizes you. You're over-stressed when you don't see a way through, or when you see the way through but dread doing the necessary things.
Tolerance for stress depends, in part, on a person's level of resilience: your ability to face reality exactly as it is, your sense that what you do will have some meaningful impact, and your self-confidence in your ability to handle the situation. You might remember a time when you were a kid and something you dealt with seemed like the end of the world, but now you look back and wonder what the big deal was. Your ability to manage stressful situations grew.
In short, when you're burnt out, you're tired even when you get enough sleep, you are reflexively cynical and critical of the work, and you begin to feel like problems you should be able to handle require extraordinary efforts. Those feelings happen now and then when you're not burnt out, but if it becomes chronic, that's burnout.
You know you're burned out when things that used to motivate you to get up early and work through lunch now feel like burdens. Not just work stuff either, but burnout it starts affecting your life outside work, on things that you thought had nothing to do with work.
> a challenging situation
You're challenged when, even if you don't know how to get through it, you have in your mind a structure, a way of getting through it. You know you can figure it out, you just have to work it out, and the process of working through it energizes you. You're over-stressed when you don't see a way through, or when you see the way through but dread doing the necessary things.
Tolerance for stress depends, in part, on a person's level of resilience: your ability to face reality exactly as it is, your sense that what you do will have some meaningful impact, and your self-confidence in your ability to handle the situation. You might remember a time when you were a kid and something you dealt with seemed like the end of the world, but now you look back and wonder what the big deal was. Your ability to manage stressful situations grew.
In short, when you're burnt out, you're tired even when you get enough sleep, you are reflexively cynical and critical of the work, and you begin to feel like problems you should be able to handle require extraordinary efforts. Those feelings happen now and then when you're not burnt out, but if it becomes chronic, that's burnout.
Those are wonderfully constructed definitions. Thank you.
You're welcome. I hope they help at least one person avoid or get out of a bad situation.
Ex-finance attorney at a White Shoe law firm here. Crashed and burned out at the age of 38, still trying to find my way back (where?) over 3 years later.
For me, I knew I was burned out when I just could not face the thought of going into the office and doing my job any longer. It made me physically sick to my stomach and then, over time, started to manifest itself in other ways that negatively affected my physical health.
The linked article really spoke to me - as do a lot of the comments in this thread. I think that for those who burn out, the hardest thing is perhaps learning to forgive yourself. Sounds cliched but there it is.
For me, I knew I was burned out when I just could not face the thought of going into the office and doing my job any longer. It made me physically sick to my stomach and then, over time, started to manifest itself in other ways that negatively affected my physical health.
The linked article really spoke to me - as do a lot of the comments in this thread. I think that for those who burn out, the hardest thing is perhaps learning to forgive yourself. Sounds cliched but there it is.
Threw in the towel on a decade long career and went back to school. Career was affecting my health as well, physically and mentally, I'm 37 now. Your comment mirrors my own experiences. Just know that you're not alone.
I'm about to do the same.
Like literally dropped my notice yesterday. Cashed out a bunch of stock last week -- good timing, cuz shit is fallin this week! -- and already looking at grad school and cert programs.
Like literally dropped my notice yesterday. Cashed out a bunch of stock last week -- good timing, cuz shit is fallin this week! -- and already looking at grad school and cert programs.
I'm about to do the same myself. Its going to be expensive as hell, and I'm still not quite sure if I'll regret it down the line, but I can't keep doing what I'm doing now.
>Do other non-software professions go through burnout? Alternatively, is software engineering more prone to burnout?
Oooooh boy you should look into medicine. This is a profession that has been dealing with insane burnout since before software existed and is only recently getting any amount of attention from within the community. (Think 80+ hour surgical residency for 8 years with the self-perpetuating cycle of "that's what I had to do so I make these residents do it too" logic of hazing)
I was previously pre-med and at one of my med school interviews (when the school was bragging about their mental health resources) they mentioned a story of a physician who played candy crush every morning before he got out of bed "just so that he could have one win for the day."
Oooooh boy you should look into medicine. This is a profession that has been dealing with insane burnout since before software existed and is only recently getting any amount of attention from within the community. (Think 80+ hour surgical residency for 8 years with the self-perpetuating cycle of "that's what I had to do so I make these residents do it too" logic of hazing)
I was previously pre-med and at one of my med school interviews (when the school was bragging about their mental health resources) they mentioned a story of a physician who played candy crush every morning before he got out of bed "just so that he could have one win for the day."
I recall a conversation with a brilliant GI surgeon and she told me she started out as a pancreatic surgeon initially in her residency. It’s a very complex surgery and “beautiful” in her words describing the procedures. But she couldn’t stay with it and moved to GI because the pancreatic surgeon has to see so many patients die not too long after surgery.
What precisely constitutes a burnout?
The Maslach Burnout Inventory, mentioned in TFA, is probably the most widely used/recognised specific classification / diagnostic mechanism.
If you think you're experiencing burnout, my recommendation would be to seek mental health support and specifically request the burnout assessment. Getting that might be more difficult than you'd expect, the sector is often averse to making such determinations.
The Maslach Burnout Inventory, mentioned in TFA, is probably the most widely used/recognised specific classification / diagnostic mechanism.
If you think you're experiencing burnout, my recommendation would be to seek mental health support and specifically request the burnout assessment. Getting that might be more difficult than you'd expect, the sector is often averse to making such determinations.
IMO any stress can lead to burnout stress, at some point it just kinda clicks and nothing seems to lead to anything better anymore, you start feeling like it's only going down. At least that's how it started for me. Imposter syndrome was getting stronger the less work I was felt able to do.
The main reason I know it was a burnout is that I never really found back. I am done with tech, or rather done with 40 hour weeks, done with unrealistic deadlines, done with so many things actually.
The main reason I know it was a burnout is that I never really found back. I am done with tech, or rather done with 40 hour weeks, done with unrealistic deadlines, done with so many things actually.
According to Section 22A(3A) of the NZ Land Transport Act 1998 a burnout is when "A person ... without reasonable excuse, operate(s) a motor vehicle on a road in a manner that causes the vehicle to undergo sustained loss of traction (where) the operation of the vehicle in that manner is (not) authorised by law."
Haha Mad Kiwi
>most can do it, their whole lives, they just do it, why can't we?
This whole comment, but especially this part, speaks to me. Thank you.
This whole comment, but especially this part, speaks to me. Thank you.
>Some can manage it, but for some it gets to be too much.. simple things, such simple things... most can do it, their whole lives, they just do it, why can't we?
Because there's more to life than personal happiness. Struggle is the definition of life. It's what gives anything meaning. People have families that they support, and being that thankless workhorse for them ends up being a deeper satisfaction than personal moment to moment happiness. We could all go sit in cabins in the woods and whittle away on sticks until we die and probably be "happier". But if a tree falls in the forest with no one around, does it make a sound? That is to say, does a person in isolation enjoying their own happiness have any meaning whatsoever?
Because there's more to life than personal happiness. Struggle is the definition of life. It's what gives anything meaning. People have families that they support, and being that thankless workhorse for them ends up being a deeper satisfaction than personal moment to moment happiness. We could all go sit in cabins in the woods and whittle away on sticks until we die and probably be "happier". But if a tree falls in the forest with no one around, does it make a sound? That is to say, does a person in isolation enjoying their own happiness have any meaning whatsoever?
| That is to say, does a person in isolation enjoying their own happiness have any meaning whatsoever?
Does grinding oneself into dust at a thankless job for a faceless corporation in the name of perpetual economic "growth" at the cost of the entirety of survivable nature as we know it have any meaning whatsoever? Because that's the flipside of what you're saying.
It may not be possible for us to go back to a time before modern technology, medicine, etc (or maybe its more likely than we think), but is it any wonder that so many peoples' brains yearn for something like that? The definition of life may be struggle, as you say, but struggle without self-determination may be the very thing that kills whatever "human" is.
Does grinding oneself into dust at a thankless job for a faceless corporation in the name of perpetual economic "growth" at the cost of the entirety of survivable nature as we know it have any meaning whatsoever? Because that's the flipside of what you're saying.
It may not be possible for us to go back to a time before modern technology, medicine, etc (or maybe its more likely than we think), but is it any wonder that so many peoples' brains yearn for something like that? The definition of life may be struggle, as you say, but struggle without self-determination may be the very thing that kills whatever "human" is.
Why not both personal moment to moment happiness, and also be able to provide a living for oneself and a family?
There are some things worth struggling against, but I see no better reason to quit than a pointless struggle.
There are some things worth struggling against, but I see no better reason to quit than a pointless struggle.
I'm a nihilist, nothing has meaning.
jk, but seriously, meaning is subjective, and nihilism is a thing. one mans isolation may mean worlds to him, and thats good enough.
also, careful about shaming people for being content with personal happiness...for some thats an accomplishment.
jk, but seriously, meaning is subjective, and nihilism is a thing. one mans isolation may mean worlds to him, and thats good enough.
also, careful about shaming people for being content with personal happiness...for some thats an accomplishment.
No one is discounting struggle.
But everyone is discounting struggling for faceless corporate entities that do not and will never give a shit about you.
But everyone is discounting struggling for faceless corporate entities that do not and will never give a shit about you.
At risk of sounding belittling to those spend their life giving their labor to someone else, I think we can't go on indefinitely because we aspire to get something better out of our lives, and somewhere perhaps deep in our minds or hearts we know we need better.
After all this whole concept of spending a career at someone else's company only started in the late 20th C when the industrial rev created the modern corporation.
After all this whole concept of spending a career at someone else's company only started in the late 20th C when the industrial rev created the modern corporation.
> spending a career at someone else's company
The nice thing about working for someone else's company is you work 40 hours, then it leaves your mind for the rest of the time. If there's some problem at work, it's usually "not in my job description." Like, printer doesn't work? Call the Department of Inhuman Resources. Not your problem.
If you work for yourself, it's 24/7. No vacations, either. All problems are your problem. Printer quit? Whatcha gonna do about it? It isn't for everyone.
The nice thing about working for someone else's company is you work 40 hours, then it leaves your mind for the rest of the time. If there's some problem at work, it's usually "not in my job description." Like, printer doesn't work? Call the Department of Inhuman Resources. Not your problem.
If you work for yourself, it's 24/7. No vacations, either. All problems are your problem. Printer quit? Whatcha gonna do about it? It isn't for everyone.
Maybe it's better to have problems you care about. Solving problems that aren't directly related to your well-being is unnatural. That's not how humans evolved. Until fairly recently in human history, if you had a problem in your work (which was probably farming), it was a direct threat to your survival that demanded your attention. You cared deeply about it and solving it in the best way possible mattered immensely.
I'm not saying we should go back to being one problem away from death, but also solving problems that just fundamentally don't matter to us personally doesn't seem to be great either.
I'm not saying we should go back to being one problem away from death, but also solving problems that just fundamentally don't matter to us personally doesn't seem to be great either.
Back when I had a bunch of employees, I was awake many nights worrying about meeting payroll.
But working for someone else - payroll was not my department.
But working for someone else - payroll was not my department.
The grass is always greener, right? But this is pretty idealistic.
Picture changes drastically if you have an abusive boss or a toxic work culture. There have to be a bunch of people on HN who physically cringed when they saw 40 hours, some have even talked themselves into being macho about it.
Picture changes drastically if you have an abusive boss or a toxic work culture. There have to be a bunch of people on HN who physically cringed when they saw 40 hours, some have even talked themselves into being macho about it.
> There have to be a bunch of people on HN who physically cringed when they saw 40 hours
I'm one of them.
I'm one of them.
Nobody is making you work for an abusive boss. Quit.
The people in the 40 hours, though, dream of the working for yourself, at least you're the cause of success and failure instead of an unpredictable re-org, a new boss, a rapid company expansion or shrinking, a colleague who wants your throat, etc.
But a 24/7 stress of self-employment is not for the faint of heart either. What's the compromise?
But a 24/7 stress of self-employment is not for the faint of heart either. What's the compromise?
The compromise is to work somewhere, usually somewhere small, where you don't have unpredictable re-orgs, new bosses all the time, rapid company expansions/shrinkages, colleagues who want your throat, etc. It especially helps if it's somewhere there's mutual trust between everyone to say "hey, I think this is the most important thing so I'm going to take X days/weeks and work on this. Things will be better/more efficient/more profitable/easier in Q ways as a result." And then you do it, and things are better, and the business chugs along.
Such places don't exist forever, and they don't tend to be massive growth situations. But they are probably what many people yearn for.
Such places don't exist forever, and they don't tend to be massive growth situations. But they are probably what many people yearn for.
I was my worst boss. For a long time. Took 5(+?) yrs to recover.
> at least you're the cause of success and failure
If only most people realized that :-)
If only most people realized that :-)
> The nice thing about working for someone else's company is you work 40 hours
What in modern society (or even this website) makes you think it's only 40 hours?
Or that you can just go "not my problem boss" -- in an At Will state that can literally get you fired on the spot.
> If you work for yourself, it's 24/7. No vacations, either. All problems are your problem. Printer quit? Whatcha gonna do about it? It isn't for everyone.
Bullocks. You set the hours as a contractor -- literally, in the contact. This is standard freelance stuff.
What in modern society (or even this website) makes you think it's only 40 hours?
Or that you can just go "not my problem boss" -- in an At Will state that can literally get you fired on the spot.
> If you work for yourself, it's 24/7. No vacations, either. All problems are your problem. Printer quit? Whatcha gonna do about it? It isn't for everyone.
Bullocks. You set the hours as a contractor -- literally, in the contact. This is standard freelance stuff.
> What in modern society (or even this website) makes you think it's only 40 hours?
The jobs I've held for the entirety of my so-far 8 year career, where I can count on my hands the number of times I've worked more than 40 hours in a week.
> Or that you can just go "not my problem boss" -- in an At Will state that can literally get you fired on the spot.
The fact that I've done that, many times, and not gotten fired. If you are skilled and a good performer, you have a lot of leverage, doubly so in the current job market.
> Bullocks. You set the hours as a contractor -- literally, in the contact. This is standard freelance stuff.
What happens when a client decides not to pay you? What happens when you can't find enough work to make whatever amount you want to make? How do you establish a reliable client base that won't saddle you with those first 2 problems in the first place? That's just the tip of the iceberg of problems you'll have to deal with on your own if you go the freelance route, which a salaried job will abstract away from you. Not everyone wants to deal with those issues; I certainly don't.
The jobs I've held for the entirety of my so-far 8 year career, where I can count on my hands the number of times I've worked more than 40 hours in a week.
> Or that you can just go "not my problem boss" -- in an At Will state that can literally get you fired on the spot.
The fact that I've done that, many times, and not gotten fired. If you are skilled and a good performer, you have a lot of leverage, doubly so in the current job market.
> Bullocks. You set the hours as a contractor -- literally, in the contact. This is standard freelance stuff.
What happens when a client decides not to pay you? What happens when you can't find enough work to make whatever amount you want to make? How do you establish a reliable client base that won't saddle you with those first 2 problems in the first place? That's just the tip of the iceberg of problems you'll have to deal with on your own if you go the freelance route, which a salaried job will abstract away from you. Not everyone wants to deal with those issues; I certainly don't.
> What in modern society (or even this website) makes you think it's only 40 hours?
Rush hour times makes it pretty obvious. Another thing is I've worked as both employer and employee. People leave after 8 hours.
> You set the hours as a contractor -- literally, in the contact.
Your 40 hour employee contract says 40 hours, literally. Why are you able to stand up for yourself as a contractor (who can be shown the door any second) but not as an employee?
> in an At Will state that can literally get you fired on the spot
Only if they are looking for an excuse to get rid of you anyway. And contractors are easy to fire on the spot, there are no legal restrictions on that.
Also, if you're a contractor, you spend a lot of time looking for contracts. 24/7.
Rush hour times makes it pretty obvious. Another thing is I've worked as both employer and employee. People leave after 8 hours.
> You set the hours as a contractor -- literally, in the contact.
Your 40 hour employee contract says 40 hours, literally. Why are you able to stand up for yourself as a contractor (who can be shown the door any second) but not as an employee?
> in an At Will state that can literally get you fired on the spot
Only if they are looking for an excuse to get rid of you anyway. And contractors are easy to fire on the spot, there are no legal restrictions on that.
Also, if you're a contractor, you spend a lot of time looking for contracts. 24/7.
i realize this is my problem, but lately i can’t leave it at 40 hours. i sometimes wake up completely absorbed with things i think are bad decisions and that deeply frustrate me at work. or i’ll think about the lack of prestige and recognition i’m getting.
Everyone I know who has their own business (or businesses) does less than ten hours a week of "real" work. You only work 24/7 if you don't delegate responsibilities properly, or if your company is mainly just you.
> After all this whole concept of spending a career at someone else's company only started in the late 20th C when the industrial rev created the modern corporation.
Psh, what preceded that was far worse and also involved a lifetime of laboring for someone else's benefit.
Psh, what preceded that was far worse and also involved a lifetime of laboring for someone else's benefit.
So? The fact that slavery- and slavery-adjacent relationships were common through a lot of human history doesn't make them acceptable now.
My take on this is that there's some part of our minds that knows we don't have to be servants to our companies. And knowing that, yet subjugating ourselves anyway creates an itch. That itch grows a little every day we wake up to an alarm and haul ourselves into the office for useless meetings. We know deep down this isn't an acceptable road for our lives. But we're here anyway, with a story that somehow justifies closing jira tickets - day in, day out.
Coincidentally, depression is an evolved mechanism for stopping you from doing something that you know deep down is unhealthy for your soul but habitual. It works by every day making it harder to do the thing you know you shouldn't do. The longer you resist it, the deeper depression burrows, until you finally can't bring yourself to make pleasantries with your spouse - or, in this case, haul yourself into the office.
For my money, burnout is a depression symptom which grows out of a long term, habitual suppression of your will. "I want X, but I can't have it because of <habitual rationalisation>". After growing up being told we can do anything, we aren't adapted for existence as a few pixels in a giant org chart. Burnout is a healthy backstop to force you to pursue the life you need, even if each day you can convince yourself you don't want it.
My take on this is that there's some part of our minds that knows we don't have to be servants to our companies. And knowing that, yet subjugating ourselves anyway creates an itch. That itch grows a little every day we wake up to an alarm and haul ourselves into the office for useless meetings. We know deep down this isn't an acceptable road for our lives. But we're here anyway, with a story that somehow justifies closing jira tickets - day in, day out.
Coincidentally, depression is an evolved mechanism for stopping you from doing something that you know deep down is unhealthy for your soul but habitual. It works by every day making it harder to do the thing you know you shouldn't do. The longer you resist it, the deeper depression burrows, until you finally can't bring yourself to make pleasantries with your spouse - or, in this case, haul yourself into the office.
For my money, burnout is a depression symptom which grows out of a long term, habitual suppression of your will. "I want X, but I can't have it because of <habitual rationalisation>". After growing up being told we can do anything, we aren't adapted for existence as a few pixels in a giant org chart. Burnout is a healthy backstop to force you to pursue the life you need, even if each day you can convince yourself you don't want it.
> So? The fact that slavery- and slavery-adjacent relationships were common through a lot of human history doesn't make them acceptable now.
I was only responding to the implicit claim of the grand parent.
FWIW, I think "that's how it always has been" has no impact on the morality of something, so I am inclined to agree with you.
But we don't need to paint a rosy picture of a lost past to critique the status quo.
I was only responding to the implicit claim of the grand parent.
FWIW, I think "that's how it always has been" has no impact on the morality of something, so I am inclined to agree with you.
But we don't need to paint a rosy picture of a lost past to critique the status quo.
Your take on depression is extremely interesting and makes a lot of sense to me due to my own experiences which I will not elaborate on. What research are you basing this on?
In some colonies. Oppression and servitude was not a universal constant.
Not merely in colonies. Feudalism was the law of the land for essentially most of the world
The yeoman artisan period has always been more myth than reality.
The yeoman artisan period has always been more myth than reality.
By the looks of it, we are going back to feudalism soon.
It surely goes back much farther:
“…man never regards what he possesses as so much his own, as what he does; and the labourer who tends a garden is perhaps in a truer sense its owner, than the listless voluptuary who enjoys its fruits…In view of this consideration, it seems as if all peasants and craftsman might be elevated into artists; that is, men who love their labour for its own sake, improve it by their own plastic genius and inventive skill, and thereby cultivate their intellect, ennoble their character, and exalt and refine their pleasures. And so humanity would be ennobled by the very things which now, though beautiful in themselves, so often serve to degrade it…But, still, freedom is undoubtedly the indispensable condition, without which even the pursuits most congenial to individual human nature, can never succeed in producing such salutary influences. Whatever does not spring from a man’s free choice, or is only the result of instruction and guidance, does not enter into his very being, but remains alien to his true nature; he does not perform it with truly human energies, but merely with mechanical exactness…
…we may admire what he does, but we despise what he is.” ― Wilhelm von Humboldt
“…man never regards what he possesses as so much his own, as what he does; and the labourer who tends a garden is perhaps in a truer sense its owner, than the listless voluptuary who enjoys its fruits…In view of this consideration, it seems as if all peasants and craftsman might be elevated into artists; that is, men who love their labour for its own sake, improve it by their own plastic genius and inventive skill, and thereby cultivate their intellect, ennoble their character, and exalt and refine their pleasures. And so humanity would be ennobled by the very things which now, though beautiful in themselves, so often serve to degrade it…But, still, freedom is undoubtedly the indispensable condition, without which even the pursuits most congenial to individual human nature, can never succeed in producing such salutary influences. Whatever does not spring from a man’s free choice, or is only the result of instruction and guidance, does not enter into his very being, but remains alien to his true nature; he does not perform it with truly human energies, but merely with mechanical exactness…
…we may admire what he does, but we despise what he is.” ― Wilhelm von Humboldt
And that’s why we feel ownership over the code we’re paid to write. The gardens were hired to tend.
Actually the concept was alive and well long before that.
Mid- and post-industrial revolution Europe had many large companies with many employees. In fact, the British East India Company (founded in the year 1600) was the first company to sell shares of ownership to raise enough capital to buy/build the necessary supplies to do large-scale business (in their case, mostly ship construction).
Of course, modern labor laws were created in response to the horrible human rights abuses committed by business owners against their employees beginning at that time.
The opposition of "big capital" vs "labor" (and hence the philosophy built on that dichotomy that underpins Marxism) didn't really exist prior to these large industrial revolution companies.
Prior to that, small businesses (and banks/lenders) were the bread and butter of economic society.
Mid- and post-industrial revolution Europe had many large companies with many employees. In fact, the British East India Company (founded in the year 1600) was the first company to sell shares of ownership to raise enough capital to buy/build the necessary supplies to do large-scale business (in their case, mostly ship construction).
Of course, modern labor laws were created in response to the horrible human rights abuses committed by business owners against their employees beginning at that time.
The opposition of "big capital" vs "labor" (and hence the philosophy built on that dichotomy that underpins Marxism) didn't really exist prior to these large industrial revolution companies.
Prior to that, small businesses (and banks/lenders) were the bread and butter of economic society.
Heck, back in ancient Egypt, a whole town was built to house the craftsmen working for the Pharaoh building his pyramid. And that was only a small part of the logistics and network needed to make it all work.
Maybe practicalpants is advocating getting rid of capitalism and going back to serfdom?
Luckily Marxism hasn't really been taken seriously by economists since it couldn't resolve it's main tenant (labour theory of value) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformation_problem
Luckily Marxism hasn't really been taken seriously by economists since it couldn't resolve it's main tenant (labour theory of value) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformation_problem
I mean before that you largely had a job that was assigned at birth, and you kept at it till you were down and out, with no real expectation of changing that state. The notion of significant social mobility is itself fairly novel to post-revolution.
You weren’t beholden to someone else’s corporation, but you were to someone else’s land or tribe/community.
You weren’t beholden to someone else’s corporation, but you were to someone else’s land or tribe/community.
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Your quoted phrases:
1) "nervous breakdown"
2) "just snap out of it",
3) "getting over it"
4) "You just..."
1) "nervous breakdown"
2) "just snap out of it",
3) "getting over it"
4) "You just..."
What's tricky is the feeling of burnout even in the absence of specific obvious work stress.
After a year long pandemic where people thought about life a lot and spent time alone, even a job that isn't a white shoe finance law firm or a vicious finance company or mean startup where people sleep under their desks - even a 9-6 or whatever, with a nice boss, can have the symptoms just as described in the comments below. Indifference, unrefreshed sleep, easily stressed by small things, unmotivated outside of work and within it... cynical. A feeling of meaninglessness inside and outside work. Small problems become exasperating annoyances. Too fuzzy-brained to even plan a vacation or decide which bed to buy. Stagnation.
Or so I'm told.
What in the world causes this? Boredom? Routine? We speak of the stresses that cause burnout (abso-fucking-lutely) but what about the dull routines, the blah-ness of being on a treadmill and staring at the distance ticking. A lack of meaning? This happens to people with families and children, too.
I'd love to hear some subjective experiences of the "non-stressed-as-much-but-still-burnt-out" burnout victims. Add to it the guilt.
After a year long pandemic where people thought about life a lot and spent time alone, even a job that isn't a white shoe finance law firm or a vicious finance company or mean startup where people sleep under their desks - even a 9-6 or whatever, with a nice boss, can have the symptoms just as described in the comments below. Indifference, unrefreshed sleep, easily stressed by small things, unmotivated outside of work and within it... cynical. A feeling of meaninglessness inside and outside work. Small problems become exasperating annoyances. Too fuzzy-brained to even plan a vacation or decide which bed to buy. Stagnation.
Or so I'm told.
What in the world causes this? Boredom? Routine? We speak of the stresses that cause burnout (abso-fucking-lutely) but what about the dull routines, the blah-ness of being on a treadmill and staring at the distance ticking. A lack of meaning? This happens to people with families and children, too.
I'd love to hear some subjective experiences of the "non-stressed-as-much-but-still-burnt-out" burnout victims. Add to it the guilt.
Personally, I think there is a lot of truth to the autonomy, mastery, and purpose framework: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive:_The_Surprising_Truth_Ab...
Another way to say it would be that I think it's about the job not aligning with people's intrinsic motivators. Doesn't necessarily require the job to be at all stressful.
When people don't have enough of those things, they get burnout. Some people get them from other parts of their lives, so they're unphased by lacking them at work as long as they make "enough" money. Some people just need less than others, for a variety of reasons.
Another way to say it would be that I think it's about the job not aligning with people's intrinsic motivators. Doesn't necessarily require the job to be at all stressful.
When people don't have enough of those things, they get burnout. Some people get them from other parts of their lives, so they're unphased by lacking them at work as long as they make "enough" money. Some people just need less than others, for a variety of reasons.
>What in the world causes this? Boredom? Routine?
Unfreedom.
Unfreedom.
One wonders how prisoners deal with this then.
Shankings, sodomy, damaged sanity.
Also, not really sympathetic. Some of these people deserve the misery
Also, not really sympathetic. Some of these people deserve the misery
Depends if they were wrongly committed or not.
Do the crime, do the time? In the modern office it's, do the time, or don't pay the bills on time.
Do the crime, do the time? In the modern office it's, do the time, or don't pay the bills on time.
To add to the sibling comments, and with the risk of sounding cheesy - at least prisoners are aware that they are unfree: they are physically confined against their will by a well-defined entity for a clearly stated reason and duration. That doesn't help much with their mental degradation, except maybe making it less unexpected (although people are still surprised by the idea that prison just hardens criminals so idk.)
Outside of a penal institution, your freedom is limited by a multitude of varying affordances: behavioral nudges, implicit value judgements, unstated social conventions, and so on, which automatically limit your behavioral options. Many of these pressures contradict each other, and handling the cognitive dissonance every waking moment can slowly add up to decision fatigue.
So it is very easy to end up chasing whatever you sincerely believe to be "success", yet do it unnaturally and in spite of yourself. To compare with the prison example: it's very easy to get stuck in a situation where there is no obvious "enemy" who's keeping your stuck, and no obvious reason things are like this besides "they randomly ended up like this". And you can keep doing this for longer than the whatever the average prison term is, because you don't realize your idea of "success" is not really yours at all, it's a label you put on an unstable compromise with the totality of your being.
This is your brain on misaligned incentives. If you've ended up in such a situation, you're also probably in an environment that censures the kind of thinking required to realign them, and which offers no support with the work involved in getting out of the trap. So it's also very easy to start feeling like there's something wrong with you in particular, and slip into more chronic forms of burnout, depression, and more or less permanent mental dysfunction.
It's especially bad when a society runs on unresolved internal contradictions for a few generations - everyone's burnout adds up to a form of pervasive malaise, and the reactions can be quite brutal and senseless. Germany in the 1930s Germany or Russia in the 1990s Russia come to mind - historical periods whose horrors are usually downplayed in favor of romanticizing the struggle for survival in a society which offers no hope for a good life.
It can be draining. IMHO that's one reason why religions, ideologies, conspiracy theories, pyramid schemes, and other arbitrary value systems (including the monetary one!) manage to motivate people so well, regardless of having no ultimate basis in physical reality. They offer you a chance to extinguish all your self-doubts and replacing innumerable fickle sensors with a single value scale, so instead of suffering impostor syndrome and burnout, you end up happily believing that you're always right, and blind to any actual harm you might be causing.
So if you're currently having your brain fried by the world, remember that it's not your fault, and please do whatever it takes to resist and get yourself back to the clarity of a healthy mental state - even if that means letting go more preconceptions than you're comfortable with.
Outside of a penal institution, your freedom is limited by a multitude of varying affordances: behavioral nudges, implicit value judgements, unstated social conventions, and so on, which automatically limit your behavioral options. Many of these pressures contradict each other, and handling the cognitive dissonance every waking moment can slowly add up to decision fatigue.
So it is very easy to end up chasing whatever you sincerely believe to be "success", yet do it unnaturally and in spite of yourself. To compare with the prison example: it's very easy to get stuck in a situation where there is no obvious "enemy" who's keeping your stuck, and no obvious reason things are like this besides "they randomly ended up like this". And you can keep doing this for longer than the whatever the average prison term is, because you don't realize your idea of "success" is not really yours at all, it's a label you put on an unstable compromise with the totality of your being.
This is your brain on misaligned incentives. If you've ended up in such a situation, you're also probably in an environment that censures the kind of thinking required to realign them, and which offers no support with the work involved in getting out of the trap. So it's also very easy to start feeling like there's something wrong with you in particular, and slip into more chronic forms of burnout, depression, and more or less permanent mental dysfunction.
It's especially bad when a society runs on unresolved internal contradictions for a few generations - everyone's burnout adds up to a form of pervasive malaise, and the reactions can be quite brutal and senseless. Germany in the 1930s Germany or Russia in the 1990s Russia come to mind - historical periods whose horrors are usually downplayed in favor of romanticizing the struggle for survival in a society which offers no hope for a good life.
It can be draining. IMHO that's one reason why religions, ideologies, conspiracy theories, pyramid schemes, and other arbitrary value systems (including the monetary one!) manage to motivate people so well, regardless of having no ultimate basis in physical reality. They offer you a chance to extinguish all your self-doubts and replacing innumerable fickle sensors with a single value scale, so instead of suffering impostor syndrome and burnout, you end up happily believing that you're always right, and blind to any actual harm you might be causing.
So if you're currently having your brain fried by the world, remember that it's not your fault, and please do whatever it takes to resist and get yourself back to the clarity of a healthy mental state - even if that means letting go more preconceptions than you're comfortable with.
Generally speaking, I believe they become more damaged mentally over time, and over the long term become unable to interact with “normal” society.
I am glad I am not alone in feeling this. Professionally I am doing better than ever and accomplishing my goals, but personally I am burning to do something else, even if it means forgoing career success.
I 100% understand. I sometimes wonder if it's an age thing. Or is it a pandemic thing. Is it connected to a mix of burned out people in a firm, and an influx of new people in the firm who don't seem burned out. Is it the existential dread of wondering, What If I don't try something else, take the risk, and risk regretting it if I don't.
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The latter part of the article, about "The Burnout Society", maps much more to how I and others I know use the term. There was a period at my job where I was burned out -- but that ended when I decided that I was never going to achieve what I had hoped for the organization. I had become an "achievement-subject", and just deciding not to be one largely removed the feeling of burnout.
My last day at my current job is Friday, after nearly nine years. I'm not leaving because of burnout, but because I no longer need the job (right now -- it's not like I never need to work again) and it's no longer rewarding in non-financial ways day to day.
While my time will be very lightly scheduled and contain almost nothing that looks like work, I do have goals for my time off and a rough timeline for when I'd like to return to work. Those goals would be very difficult to achieve (for me, not necessarily for others) while also working full time. I am the perfect example of someone quitting as an act of self care.
My last day at my current job is Friday, after nearly nine years. I'm not leaving because of burnout, but because I no longer need the job (right now -- it's not like I never need to work again) and it's no longer rewarding in non-financial ways day to day.
While my time will be very lightly scheduled and contain almost nothing that looks like work, I do have goals for my time off and a rough timeline for when I'd like to return to work. Those goals would be very difficult to achieve (for me, not necessarily for others) while also working full time. I am the perfect example of someone quitting as an act of self care.
I'm curious about people who take extended time off (months, years).
Do you worry at all about how that will impact your ability to retire? The drain on your savings?
Do you worry at all about how that will impact your ability to retire? The drain on your savings?
I took 3 years off from about ages 27-30. I wasn’t making a ton of money at the time (this was about a decade ago) and figured retirement was unlikely so I may as well enjoy my life now. Leading up to that point I had been living cheaply, working a full time office job and doing freelance SEO writing on the side for 5 years.
I lived very cheaply, worked a few freelance jobs, burned through my savings, and ended up finding a job when I had about 6 months of expenses left in my savings account. Never had to dip into retirement or stocks though.
Best time of my life. Many people like the sound of this but have no interest in actually living that way. I lived in a tiny studio apartment, rode a bicycle everywhere, ate a cheap plant based diet, and bought almost nothing.
I lived very cheaply, worked a few freelance jobs, burned through my savings, and ended up finding a job when I had about 6 months of expenses left in my savings account. Never had to dip into retirement or stocks though.
Best time of my life. Many people like the sound of this but have no interest in actually living that way. I lived in a tiny studio apartment, rode a bicycle everywhere, ate a cheap plant based diet, and bought almost nothing.
> Never had to dip into retirement or stocks though.
This may be a difference in perspective but, I consider my savings and my official 401k to both be "retirement".
Partly this is because, I only have a 401k from a previous company. My current employer doesn't have one, so any savings I have are my "retirement".
This may be a difference in perspective but, I consider my savings and my official 401k to both be "retirement".
Partly this is because, I only have a 401k from a previous company. My current employer doesn't have one, so any savings I have are my "retirement".
I'm doing this now. Do you have any advice/insights?
Don’t feel like you have to go out and live somebody else’s retirement fantasy. The time is yours, so do what you want with it. I spent weeks watching DVDs from the library.
Personally, I liked having a routine and would make a little checklist at the start of every week that I had to do everyday. I remember stuff on it being like:
1. Say hello to someone I don’t already know.
2. Brush 2x and floss.
3. Walk for 1 hour after dinner.
I ended up doing some 500 sit-up program and within a year was doing like 5000 crunches a week. I also said yes to everything I was offered and wouldn’t worry about money too much. If a friend was going to a $5 concert, I could drop everything and go.
I have a lot of good memories from that time. It was amazing to just feel completely free.
Personally, I liked having a routine and would make a little checklist at the start of every week that I had to do everyday. I remember stuff on it being like:
1. Say hello to someone I don’t already know.
2. Brush 2x and floss.
3. Walk for 1 hour after dinner.
I ended up doing some 500 sit-up program and within a year was doing like 5000 crunches a week. I also said yes to everything I was offered and wouldn’t worry about money too much. If a friend was going to a $5 concert, I could drop everything and go.
I have a lot of good memories from that time. It was amazing to just feel completely free.
Buy a really nice early 2000s road bike with a big squishy seat and a new helmet and go for a 1 hour ride every day. You'll see way more of your community than walking an hour every day. That gets you within a 6-9 mile radius from your house.
The only thing I would add is that a big squishy seat does not equal comfort. Sometimes small saddles fit the best. Find a saddle that is comfortable; they are worth paying the money for.
And riding for a while can get you a lot more than a 6-9 mile radius. More like 40 miles.
Yeah I have a rock hard saddle myself, which is ultimately the better solution, but "sore butt" seems to be the #1 complaint from new cyclists, is the only reason I recommend it to absolute newbies
If you save (and invest) 50% of your net income and can live on the rest, you can basically retire in ten years.
So after these 10 years you’re free to quit working for ever, work as little as you feel, and for any amount of money. In other words: you’re free to do whatever you want.
So after these 10 years you’re free to quit working for ever, work as little as you feel, and for any amount of money. In other words: you’re free to do whatever you want.
20 years, not 10.
((((((((50*1.07+50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07*0.04 = 30,000 per year income, after saving 50,000 per year and making 7% for 10 years at a 4% withdrawal rate, which is very aggressive for a retirement longer than the standard 30 years.
((((((((((((((((((50*1.06+50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06*0.026 = 50,000 per year income, after saving 50,000 per year and making 6% for 20 years at a 2.6% withdrawal rate, which should be relatively safe even for a very long retirement.
((((((((50*1.07+50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07 + 50)*1.07*0.04 = 30,000 per year income, after saving 50,000 per year and making 7% for 10 years at a 4% withdrawal rate, which is very aggressive for a retirement longer than the standard 30 years.
((((((((((((((((((50*1.06+50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06 + 50)*1.06*0.026 = 50,000 per year income, after saving 50,000 per year and making 6% for 20 years at a 2.6% withdrawal rate, which should be relatively safe even for a very long retirement.
My bad, you’re right, it’s 65% saving rate for around 10 years.
How can this be true? You're telling me that you don't have to consider HOW MUCH you're saving?
50% of a McDonalds burger flipper salary while a large percentage of their salary, is still a very small amount of money.
Where does this logic of 50% for 20 years come from? Seems like a serious broad "rule of thumb" kind of thing that is only just barely realistic?
50% of a McDonalds burger flipper salary while a large percentage of their salary, is still a very small amount of money.
Where does this logic of 50% for 20 years come from? Seems like a serious broad "rule of thumb" kind of thing that is only just barely realistic?
Yes it's a rule of thumb, it's not meant to be accurate to the day. And it assumes you're investing the savings to get average index market returns.
It doesn't matter your actual salary, if you can get by on 35% of it and save the other 65% then it's all that matters. After you've saved for 10-11 years, you'll get the 35% of your original salary you live on, in perpetuity, from what you saved earlier.
Now of course it's much easier to save 65% when you're paid more than if you're paid minimum wage, but still. And you'll probably want some slack because these numbers are really the bare minimum, but that's the idea. Saving 65% of your income as a SE is really not that hard for a lot of us, even less so when you realize this is the ticket to being free within 10-15 years.
It doesn't matter your actual salary, if you can get by on 35% of it and save the other 65% then it's all that matters. After you've saved for 10-11 years, you'll get the 35% of your original salary you live on, in perpetuity, from what you saved earlier.
Now of course it's much easier to save 65% when you're paid more than if you're paid minimum wage, but still. And you'll probably want some slack because these numbers are really the bare minimum, but that's the idea. Saving 65% of your income as a SE is really not that hard for a lot of us, even less so when you realize this is the ticket to being free within 10-15 years.
The idea of the percentage is based on sustaining a similar quality of life as before. If you earn ten times as much as a burger cook, then the assumption is that in retirement you expect much better (and more expensive) conditions than McDonalds employees have now.
This really depends on one's earnings vs lifestyle. If your earnings are software-developer level and your lifestyle is cheap, it won't? If you expand your lifestyle to fit your paycheck, large house, cars, gadgets, expensive vacations etc, then yes of course extended time off will have significant negative impact.
Yes, I worry about it a lot. Another thing that I worry is if I will have a lower earning potential as I age causing compounding issues.
I have multiple projects I'd like to think I'd put more time into, in reality I'd probably just do way more HN.
One of the most important parts of my plan, and part of what I was referring to when I said "almost nothing that looks like work" is to keep a hard cap on computer time. This break is about other parts of my life.
Being in the right mental place to do that is part of why now is the right time.
Being in the right mental place to do that is part of why now is the right time.
Their total earnings over the last 10 years at their job is likely around $1mm or more, and I assume they also have assets which are appreciating in value. It doesn't seem outlandish to me, and a break after 9 years at one company sounds nice. Professors and other such people somehow find the money to take regular sabbaticals.
Tenured profs are generally paid to take a sabbatical and a lot of times are expected to write something to be published while they're gone.
Applies to pre-tenure professors (on the tenure track) as well. They do research/writing during this time if they want to be promoted. But once you reach the highest rank (full professor), there's not much your university can do if you aren't productive.
Many professors are of course still motivated by internal drive, but there aren't strong external controls that can be exerted.
Many professors are of course still motivated by internal drive, but there aren't strong external controls that can be exerted.
That's a neat (sort-of) perk. I didn't know that. Thanks!
Professors are paid (though sometimes only ~50%) during their sabbaticals. Otherwise you're exactly right.
For the past nine years I've worked at a place that pays well, and saved a very large percentage of my income. I did this specifically so I have the flexibility to take time off, and potentially choose jobs that don't pay nearly as well in the future, without it affecting my ability to retire. I don't want to imply I deprived myself to do this; we work in an industry where many of us can do all of that and still live beyond comfortably.
While I realize this isn't an option for many people due to lack of opportunities, kids, lifestyle creep, etc., I have both planned for it and been very fortunate. So no, I'm not worried about it.
While I realize this isn't an option for many people due to lack of opportunities, kids, lifestyle creep, etc., I have both planned for it and been very fortunate. So no, I'm not worried about it.
I guess I'm still confused. "Pays well" as in, pays well above average? I'm taking average to mean ~$130,000 in California / Bay Area.
So you made well above that for 9 years AND lived somewhere with a lower cost of living?
Then I could understand saving so much that you don't worry about retirement. But if you're making "good" but average salary in the bay area, and even saving a lot, you're still eating into savings to take months and years off.
Maybe an easier way to ask this is... What would you consider to be enough saved in the bank, at say, 35 years old, to take a whole year off?
So you made well above that for 9 years AND lived somewhere with a lower cost of living?
Then I could understand saving so much that you don't worry about retirement. But if you're making "good" but average salary in the bay area, and even saving a lot, you're still eating into savings to take months and years off.
Maybe an easier way to ask this is... What would you consider to be enough saved in the bank, at say, 35 years old, to take a whole year off?
I bet it'd be less than 100k to take a year off in the Bay Area with little reduction in lifestyle.
A senior dev in the Bay Area working at a respectable company will get 300k per year minimum.
300k+ for 9 years will put you solidly into the 7 figures of net worth - especially if you invest well in the last decade.
A senior dev in the Bay Area working at a respectable company will get 300k per year minimum.
300k+ for 9 years will put you solidly into the 7 figures of net worth - especially if you invest well in the last decade.
One of the reasons I don't usually answer financial questions like this online is because, in a sense, it really all comes down to this answer. If you make a lot of money, and you're careful, and don't get unlucky, the rest just falls into place. But hopefully my other response is helpful for people still learning how to think about saving.
I think my confusion centered around the mismatch between what I thought you were making, and what you likely are making.
I figured that the average senior engineer in California makes somewhere between $130,000 and $170,000, depending on region.
I had simply no idea that an average senior engineer could be making north of $300,000. That is jaw dropping and of course I understand now how you're able to take time off.
I save over 50% of my income but I don't make anything close to $300,000 so yea, taking a whole year off would be a big chunk of my savings.
I guess I need to try and find a job where I'm making $300,000 lol. Do you have some niche specialty or is that literally just a standard rate?
I figured that the average senior engineer in California makes somewhere between $130,000 and $170,000, depending on region.
I had simply no idea that an average senior engineer could be making north of $300,000. That is jaw dropping and of course I understand now how you're able to take time off.
I save over 50% of my income but I don't make anything close to $300,000 so yea, taking a whole year off would be a big chunk of my savings.
I guess I need to try and find a job where I'm making $300,000 lol. Do you have some niche specialty or is that literally just a standard rate?
> I save over 50% of my income but I don't make anything close to $300,000 so yea, taking a whole year off would be a big chunk of my savings.
There is something wrong with this piece of information. If you really save 50%, then taking a whole year off will only wipe out one year of savings, no matter what you make. So if it's a large part of your savings and you're really saving 50%, then the problem is you've only been saving for a couple of years. Having a higher income just makes it easier to have a higher savings rate, it doesn't change the math on how many years you have to save to afford the time off, given equal savings rates. You might want to re-read my other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27126783
> I guess I need to try and find a job where I'm making $300,000 lol. Do you have some niche specialty or is that literally just a standard rate?
It's a standard rate for someone who was a senior engineer then got promoted two more times, I guess. I don't have a niche specialty. And I expect to (and have planned for) making less at my next job, and potentially for the rest of my career.
There is something wrong with this piece of information. If you really save 50%, then taking a whole year off will only wipe out one year of savings, no matter what you make. So if it's a large part of your savings and you're really saving 50%, then the problem is you've only been saving for a couple of years. Having a higher income just makes it easier to have a higher savings rate, it doesn't change the math on how many years you have to save to afford the time off, given equal savings rates. You might want to re-read my other comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27126783
> I guess I need to try and find a job where I'm making $300,000 lol. Do you have some niche specialty or is that literally just a standard rate?
It's a standard rate for someone who was a senior engineer then got promoted two more times, I guess. I don't have a niche specialty. And I expect to (and have planned for) making less at my next job, and potentially for the rest of my career.
Well, my guess is that isn't only "standard" at the big FANG type companies (PayPal and other goliaths in the bay area included).
I could be wrong but, I don't think that's standard pay for the vast majority of software jobs in the bay area, whether it be at smaller startups or more old school traditional software companies.
I could be wrong but, I don't think that's standard pay for the vast majority of software jobs in the bay area, whether it be at smaller startups or more old school traditional software companies.
> I guess I'm still confused. "Pays well" as in, pays well above average? I'm taking average to mean ~$130,000 in California / Bay Area.
> So you made well above that for 9 years AND lived somewhere with a lower cost of living?
As I said in my original post, I've been very fortunate, and my situation doesn't apply to everyone even in tech. But yes, though I started out lower than that at the beginning, it just grew rapidly over time. This is the pay grade I've been at for the last several years: https://www.levels.fyi/company/PayPal/salaries/Software-Engi... (3rd party source, not implying anything about its accuracy)
> Then I could understand saving so much that you don't worry about retirement. But if you're making "good" but average salary in the bay area, and even saving a lot, you're still eating into savings to take months and years off.
I'm going to ignore compound interest and taxes for simplicity here. If I save 50% of my salary, and take one year off, I lose two years of savings -- one year of spending and one year of making up for what I spent. If I save 10% of my salary, and take one year off, I lose ten years of savings -- one year of spending and nine years making up for what I spent.
> Maybe an easier way to ask this is... What would you consider to be enough saved in the bank, at say, 35 years old, to take a whole year off?
This part of the answer is actually terrible advice because it's so over-simplified, this is just meant to make a point. The shorthand rule is at a 50% savings rate you can retire after a 20 year career. So you don't really need to have anything saved at 35 beyond what you'll spend to take time off, because when you come back you'll still have more than 20 years left to work.
Keeping my savings rate high is fundamentally what allows me to do this, more because I'll make up for the "lost time" quickly than because of what I've already saved.
As I said in my original post, I've been very fortunate, and my situation doesn't apply to everyone even in tech. But yes, though I started out lower than that at the beginning, it just grew rapidly over time. This is the pay grade I've been at for the last several years: https://www.levels.fyi/company/PayPal/salaries/Software-Engi... (3rd party source, not implying anything about its accuracy)
> Then I could understand saving so much that you don't worry about retirement. But if you're making "good" but average salary in the bay area, and even saving a lot, you're still eating into savings to take months and years off.
I'm going to ignore compound interest and taxes for simplicity here. If I save 50% of my salary, and take one year off, I lose two years of savings -- one year of spending and one year of making up for what I spent. If I save 10% of my salary, and take one year off, I lose ten years of savings -- one year of spending and nine years making up for what I spent.
> Maybe an easier way to ask this is... What would you consider to be enough saved in the bank, at say, 35 years old, to take a whole year off?
This part of the answer is actually terrible advice because it's so over-simplified, this is just meant to make a point. The shorthand rule is at a 50% savings rate you can retire after a 20 year career. So you don't really need to have anything saved at 35 beyond what you'll spend to take time off, because when you come back you'll still have more than 20 years left to work.
Keeping my savings rate high is fundamentally what allows me to do this, more because I'll make up for the "lost time" quickly than because of what I've already saved.
"Do you worry at all about how that will impact your ability to retire? The drain on your savings?"
I'm not going to be able to retire, and my savings are gone. The end of my life is likely to be quite miserable.
I know my choices have lead to that. They weren't good choices, and I wouldn't recommend them to anyone. But they are the choices I made and I am reaping the consequences.
If you can hack it, be all career oriented and make good choices that secure your future... more power to you if you can do that for yourself and your family.
I'm not going to be able to retire, and my savings are gone. The end of my life is likely to be quite miserable.
I know my choices have lead to that. They weren't good choices, and I wouldn't recommend them to anyone. But they are the choices I made and I am reaping the consequences.
If you can hack it, be all career oriented and make good choices that secure your future... more power to you if you can do that for yourself and your family.
But were they really your choices? Everyday you wake up constrained by what someone who is no longer you did yesterday. Nobody is responsible for anything. I mean that philosophically of course. Give yourself a break. I recognize your name from many threads here and believe it you have made a difference. Though I don't know you personally, your words could as well be mine, so I know whereof I speak. You are not missing anything by choosing not to run in the rat race. Retirement is overrated. I will regret everything on my death bed, but that would be true no matter how I lived. To face its closure is regret enough.
Actually, being you today is caused by who you were yesterday. This is what makes ourselves. Not taking ownership of it is a recipe for unhappiness.
Here's my experience (and future plans):
My wife took a 6 month unpaid sabbatical about a year after we moved in together. She had been with the same company for 10 years at that point. She saved up about four months worth of rent and we just stopped eating out as much, and she paid for the rest with a ~4% personal loan through her local credit union. I think it was paid off within three months.
More recently, my wife took off 1 month unpaid maternity leave. During pregnancy we both saved about 10% of our disposable income, and this more than covered her portion of the living expenses during this month.
So, in the five years I've known my wife, she's taken 7 months unpaid leave. That's not a huge amount of time, but at the same time, definitely helped her avoid burnout. And we didn't have to chip in to long term savings for her to do it. I work in a different industry and job hop more often, so I just take 3 weeks unpaid in-between jobs, which is a mild strain on finances, but not significant. Other than the mortgage and boat payment we don't carry any long term debt and continue to save for retirement.
As for future plans, in about five years we're planning on taking an unpaid year off, just before our kids go to primary school, but plan on doing that in a low cost of living area. Most of that year will be paid for using savings set aside for that, with any run-over paid for with low interest loans. Will it impact the long tail of my retirement? Probably to some degree, but I'd rather spend my time, now, with my kids, rather than rot away in a retirement home wishing I hadn't worked so much.
My wife took a 6 month unpaid sabbatical about a year after we moved in together. She had been with the same company for 10 years at that point. She saved up about four months worth of rent and we just stopped eating out as much, and she paid for the rest with a ~4% personal loan through her local credit union. I think it was paid off within three months.
More recently, my wife took off 1 month unpaid maternity leave. During pregnancy we both saved about 10% of our disposable income, and this more than covered her portion of the living expenses during this month.
So, in the five years I've known my wife, she's taken 7 months unpaid leave. That's not a huge amount of time, but at the same time, definitely helped her avoid burnout. And we didn't have to chip in to long term savings for her to do it. I work in a different industry and job hop more often, so I just take 3 weeks unpaid in-between jobs, which is a mild strain on finances, but not significant. Other than the mortgage and boat payment we don't carry any long term debt and continue to save for retirement.
As for future plans, in about five years we're planning on taking an unpaid year off, just before our kids go to primary school, but plan on doing that in a low cost of living area. Most of that year will be paid for using savings set aside for that, with any run-over paid for with low interest loans. Will it impact the long tail of my retirement? Probably to some degree, but I'd rather spend my time, now, with my kids, rather than rot away in a retirement home wishing I hadn't worked so much.
I did it, years be for covid. I could afford it if I significantly reduced my lifestyle, so I did. I have wanted to see how much I can reduce my lifestyle anyway as a sort of getting to know yourself, endurance experiment.
I wasn't burned out. I liked my job and my work. It wasn't the most consequential work, I was writing code for some product I didn't really believe in, but I enjoyed it. But my boss was insufferable. I think he was bipolar or something. So one day after the 100th time of toying with me to prove to himself who's in charge, I just quit, right there, on the spot, turned in my security keys to the building and left. I wasn't planning on it, I just realized that this man is never going to just let me contribute what I have to offer and enjoy my job and it was not going to get better, so I was not going to give him one more second of my life.
I have worked an odd job or two since and did a little bit of freelance coding. I've drifted quite a bit. It gets boring, but I am also much more at ease. I want to do something but I need to call my own shots. I have built some skills and hobbies I have wanted to build in my free time, and I have found my minimum lifestyle that I am happy with, there are a few ways I want to try to reduce further, and also I have put off lots of things I thought I wanted to do, and things I still think I want to do, but I think I'll figure out how to do them or whether I really want to eventually.
I wasn't burned out. I liked my job and my work. It wasn't the most consequential work, I was writing code for some product I didn't really believe in, but I enjoyed it. But my boss was insufferable. I think he was bipolar or something. So one day after the 100th time of toying with me to prove to himself who's in charge, I just quit, right there, on the spot, turned in my security keys to the building and left. I wasn't planning on it, I just realized that this man is never going to just let me contribute what I have to offer and enjoy my job and it was not going to get better, so I was not going to give him one more second of my life.
I have worked an odd job or two since and did a little bit of freelance coding. I've drifted quite a bit. It gets boring, but I am also much more at ease. I want to do something but I need to call my own shots. I have built some skills and hobbies I have wanted to build in my free time, and I have found my minimum lifestyle that I am happy with, there are a few ways I want to try to reduce further, and also I have put off lots of things I thought I wanted to do, and things I still think I want to do, but I think I'll figure out how to do them or whether I really want to eventually.
I followed a very similar path, but to stave off boredom, I spent two years driving from Alaska to Argentina through 17 countries, then three years driving all the way around Africa through 35 countries.
They cost about the same per month as living in a city and going to work, so it's really not a big deal, financially.
I do some freelance writing for magazines, I've written a few books, I do speaking engagements. I have less money than when I was slinging code, and I'm about 9000 times happier and can hardly remember work stress as a thing.
I'm just about to set off on my next major expedition, and at age 39 I couldn't be happier I decided to quit the rate race when I did! I wouldn't go back for all the money in the world.
They cost about the same per month as living in a city and going to work, so it's really not a big deal, financially.
I do some freelance writing for magazines, I've written a few books, I do speaking engagements. I have less money than when I was slinging code, and I'm about 9000 times happier and can hardly remember work stress as a thing.
I'm just about to set off on my next major expedition, and at age 39 I couldn't be happier I decided to quit the rate race when I did! I wouldn't go back for all the money in the world.
The other day it struck me that we live in a literal fairy tale, with real monsters, fantasmal lands and people and creatures, and unthinkable, magical phenomena. Most people choose mundanity (even when not constrained by socio-economics) and they set themselves up in a bubble where they "forget" there's a fairy tale outside. Somehow people like you reject mundanity, and I find this all fascinating.
Edit: This reminds me of the concept of "social integration" in sociology. Some works of fiction cast it as "conformity".
Edit: This reminds me of the concept of "social integration" in sociology. Some works of fiction cast it as "conformity".
Don’t you feel the need to set down roots of some kind? I would want a regular group of friends to see, a relationship, community… Doing something like this seems like it would prevent any kind of close relationships.
As I get older that is becoming more of a thing, yes.
My long term plan going forward is that I'll likely stay at a "home base" for a year or three so I can have all those things you mention, then hit the road for a year or so before coming back to that same home base.
It's a tough thing to balance, but on the whole I know I wouldn't be happy if i just stayed in one place indefinitely.
My long term plan going forward is that I'll likely stay at a "home base" for a year or three so I can have all those things you mention, then hit the road for a year or so before coming back to that same home base.
It's a tough thing to balance, but on the whole I know I wouldn't be happy if i just stayed in one place indefinitely.
what was your vehicle of choice for the expedition?
Also, what was your most memorable place you've seen in the Americas? Africa?
Also, what was your most memorable place you've seen in the Americas? Africa?
Bad bosses are just intolerable. In fact, it often takes some sort of psychological disfunction to rise up the corporate ladder. Or you are endowed with such a personality due to cultural integration.
What do you do for money though? I know you mentioned odd job or two but my biggest concern is long term sustainability. Surely one needs to pay the bills somehow after the honeymoon period is over.
What do you do for money though? I know you mentioned odd job or two but my biggest concern is long term sustainability. Surely one needs to pay the bills somehow after the honeymoon period is over.
The trick for me was to reduce the bills. It isn't easy for most people. You'll find that you don't need 99% of the things you think you do need, and there are things that are free that you need that you aren't getting because you've got no time to pursue them. And things that are free that are just more rewarding.
I don't live in a city. I doubt I ever will again. There's nothing there for human beings, they're hostile to us, they're sirens on sharp rocks.
I don't live in a city. I doubt I ever will again. There's nothing there for human beings, they're hostile to us, they're sirens on sharp rocks.
I quit my job in December because I was incapable of getting through a day of work without yelling. I was constantly angry, tired, and my health had deteriorated.
I have been unemployed for 5 months. It isn't any better now. I am trying to work from home on some side projects but I am able to focus for about one hour on a task and become extremely tired. I can not even apply for work as the act of filling out a resume seems impossible.
Prior to this I was a very successful IT Director with a team of 60 in 3 countries. Now the simplest tasks are impossible for me.
Two years ago I would have thought this would be an inconceivable position for me end up in.
I am only 39. Oh well - that's life.
I have been unemployed for 5 months. It isn't any better now. I am trying to work from home on some side projects but I am able to focus for about one hour on a task and become extremely tired. I can not even apply for work as the act of filling out a resume seems impossible.
Prior to this I was a very successful IT Director with a team of 60 in 3 countries. Now the simplest tasks are impossible for me.
Two years ago I would have thought this would be an inconceivable position for me end up in.
I am only 39. Oh well - that's life.
It made me really sad to read this. It may sound glib, but can I suggest you buy a motorcycle? It doesn't have to be that, of course, but that worked for me. I think you might need the opposite of focus. A hobby.
I quit my job and have started a sabbatical of sorts. My last day at work was April 30. Between the day I gave my obligatory 2-week notice and my last day I had second thoughts at times, but within a day or so all the reasons I had for quitting would bubble up from Slack, or when looking at the latest PR opened by my co-worker who programmed like he still thought LOC was a legit measure of productivity.
Every day I wake up more and more certain I made the right choice.
Every day I wake up more and more certain I made the right choice.
Everyone knows the true measure is lines of code deleted.
(Congratulations!)
(Congratulations!)
> For those who can afford to quit, claiming burnout may be an effective way to signal one’s essential employability, a way to reassure your future bosses that you will work yourself to the bone for them, too — right after this break.
I'm not a hiring manager, but I'd imagine from the perspective of one that claiming burnout as a reason for leaving actually signifies the opposite - you're unable to manage a proper work-life balance and there's a risk you'll burn out in a new job too.
I'm not a hiring manager, but I'd imagine from the perspective of one that claiming burnout as a reason for leaving actually signifies the opposite - you're unable to manage a proper work-life balance and there's a risk you'll burn out in a new job too.
That's some grade A victim blaming right there. As if it's the workers fault for not 'maintaining work life balance properly'.
Is there some cosmic law that says it is never an employee's fault for "not maintaining work life balance"?
If you have a manager, it's literally their job to manage your performance as an employee, and that includes your work-life balance. Some managers are bad at their jobs (or belong to organizations which would prefer to burn out their employees or otherwise don't care about work-life balance), but if someone is working too many hours, or not taking enough vacation time, or is burning out because they're overwhelmed by their responsibilities or lack of support (either perceived or real), it's within their manager's power to identify those issues, and it's generally within the manager's power to fix them.
There's something creepy about deciding that it is someone else's job to manage your work-life balance. Who is better positioned to do that than you?
People have to recognize their limitations and negotiate with their employer to make sure the employer does too. Sure, that requires attentive managers but it also requires employees who don't cede control of their lives to their employer.
People have to recognize their limitations and negotiate with their employer to make sure the employer does too. Sure, that requires attentive managers but it also requires employees who don't cede control of their lives to their employer.
It's not creepy for a manager to notice that you are working 12 hours a day and tell you, "Hey, this doesn't seem long-term sustainable. Why don't you scale things back so we have some slack for when a real emergency happens."
Ultimately though, if your workload is too high then a manager is the only person who can relieve that pressure valve, just a little bit. They have the power, which means usually they have to adopt the responsibility (what e.g. Junior IC is going to ask their boss for less work while also going through a rough time?)
Not only do they have the power, relieving/handling that pressure is a good chunk of the very job description. If you are in charge of administering a team of people and you are doing nothing to coordinate their collective and individual workloads, then what exactly are you for?
They're not managing your work life balance; they're managing your replacement cost (and their own career). If an employee burns out, it can definitely be a systemic issue, so a domino effect of people quitting or at least low morale.
A major component of management is operational effectiveness and redundancy. If someone burns out and you don't see it, your team is suddenly undersized and you needed to hire (and have a recruiting budget) yesterday.
A major component of management is operational effectiveness and redundancy. If someone burns out and you don't see it, your team is suddenly undersized and you needed to hire (and have a recruiting budget) yesterday.
I see my manager as a "negotiator on behalf of the company" for work life balance.
If I want to change something, I run it past them. If it messes something up they come back and say no and why. And I decide if it is worth it to keep working here. Or between us we come up with something else to keep both parties happy.
At my workplace currently, management is pretty flexible and happy to go through whatever HR paperwork required.
If I want to change something, I run it past them. If it messes something up they come back and say no and why. And I decide if it is worth it to keep working here. Or between us we come up with something else to keep both parties happy.
At my workplace currently, management is pretty flexible and happy to go through whatever HR paperwork required.
If in doubt about the cosmic law, there's an actual labour law about managing employee welfare well enough to prevent burnout (phrased as responsibilities for employee health) in a lot of jurisdictions.
There's truth to this though. I am similar to the "friend" OP is referring to (though I do not get miserable at my job). But there's always a point where I experience extreme apathy at work, to the point that it spirals to not working for a day or two. It leads me to either leaving or quitting the company.
I've consulted a psychiatrist because it's clearly a recurring pattern that has fucked up my career progression. I've been told I might have ADHD.
I think the point (for me at least), is that some people aren't just meant to function in a full-time job. A bit of an exaggeration, but I tell myself that by the time that I'm 30, and I still have someone control my pace, schedule, and deadlines, that I'll kill myself (maybe just metaphorically).
I've consulted a psychiatrist because it's clearly a recurring pattern that has fucked up my career progression. I've been told I might have ADHD.
I think the point (for me at least), is that some people aren't just meant to function in a full-time job. A bit of an exaggeration, but I tell myself that by the time that I'm 30, and I still have someone control my pace, schedule, and deadlines, that I'll kill myself (maybe just metaphorically).
Part of the issue is that most people are not able to work an American 40+ hours a week with only 2 weeks vacation, that you may or may not be able to take, and stay in a healthy place psychologically and physically.
It just isn't reasonable.
A lot of people create their own problems. They can't deal with the infinite backlog of work that always grows and that is a personal problem. They aren't being asked to work longer or harder they just can't deal with the fact that the amount of TODO work always grows.
The "infinite backlog of work" is the problem. It will be used as an excuse to ding you on your next performance review. Th fact that companies are structured to ensure that there is always too much work for anyone to do is what leads to stress and burnout.
I have an infinite backlog of work, and I leave work at 5pm on Friday and don't even check my work e-mail until 9am on Monday.
I had two stakeholders insist that 3 things all get done by the following Monday; I reported that wasn't going to be possible. They could not agree on priorities, so I sent an e-mail with the order I was going to work on them that went unanswered. The 3rd thing on the list didn't get done. My manager asked me why and I showed the e-mail chain. I got a "good job" and never heard about it again.
I would not have had the confidence to do this even just 10 years ago, and I suspect that the majority of junior engineers feel that way, and would work through the weekend to get everything done.
Whose fault would it be if I hadn't set boundaries and burnt out? I think there's shared blame and it depends on details. In this hypothetical situation, did my manager notice a lot of weekend work happening and check in with me? Perhaps they wouldn't because they expect a senior engineer to handle this balance, but they would have checked on a more junior engineer? Things aren't completely cut and dry.
I had two stakeholders insist that 3 things all get done by the following Monday; I reported that wasn't going to be possible. They could not agree on priorities, so I sent an e-mail with the order I was going to work on them that went unanswered. The 3rd thing on the list didn't get done. My manager asked me why and I showed the e-mail chain. I got a "good job" and never heard about it again.
I would not have had the confidence to do this even just 10 years ago, and I suspect that the majority of junior engineers feel that way, and would work through the weekend to get everything done.
Whose fault would it be if I hadn't set boundaries and burnt out? I think there's shared blame and it depends on details. In this hypothetical situation, did my manager notice a lot of weekend work happening and check in with me? Perhaps they wouldn't because they expect a senior engineer to handle this balance, but they would have checked on a more junior engineer? Things aren't completely cut and dry.
Infinite backlog is only stressful if you care.
Perhaps but isn't it probable that those doing the hiring will, right or wrong, engage in exactly that type of thinking?
Being a victim doesn't excuse you from accountability. If you leave a laptop in your car in a shady neighborhood and find it was stolen, that was your fault and you bear the blame for not having common sense. Similarly, we all have the responsibility to take care of our own health and do some learning around what that entails. Suggesting otherwise is infantilization and implies that some entity out there is responsible for our safety and mistakes, not us.
I think you misunderstood the tone of my comment. I'm not saying that that is the case, but that I imagine that kind of victim blaming or whatever you want to call it is what a hiring manager would use with an applicant claiming burnout.
I don't want to be hired by a manager who thinks it is ok to work someone more than 40 hours a week. I make it very clear that I left consulting firm X because of the unreasonable work expectations and that I have no problem working my standard week and overtime when required. But if the base contract is 40 hours a week don't expect me to work 60+ every week.
Were the work hours at the consulting firm made known to you before you joined? Or was it sold as "we occasionally have some crunch times to hit deadlines" and that turned out to be "always."
100% B. I was a senior hire, not a grad. No one at the firm told me at any point during the recruitment that this was what I was signing on for.
Now fair enough I could have checked the /r/consulting sub and found plenty of horror stories, but also I would have asked for more money to reflect the hours worked.
Now fair enough I could have checked the /r/consulting sub and found plenty of horror stories, but also I would have asked for more money to reflect the hours worked.
Not sure why we should particularly care what a hiring manager thinks?
What do you think?
What do you think?
Presumably because we want to get hired by that place and what the hiring manager thinks affects our chances of being hired.
Do you want to proceed getting hired at a place which is going to burn you out (y/n)?
Do you need an income (y/n)?
I can't be the only one who hates working for money. Id rather have a healthy goal to work towards, rather than the accumulation of dollars. So many go ideas go to the gutter because they aren't profitable. I think there's more to life than that.
good, you do that and i'll continue to feed myself.
I'd work for food, so we're aren't that dissimilar.
Yes and people have lost track of the value of money.
You can buy valuable things like good health care, living wages, balanced lives, and self respect for employees, fair deals and support for improved lives for customers, a healthier market environment for the planet and future generations. You can buy being the person to make the better world you imagine and make it sustainable to perpetuate that.
These are all for sale and good business practices to boot.
You can buy valuable things like good health care, living wages, balanced lives, and self respect for employees, fair deals and support for improved lives for customers, a healthier market environment for the planet and future generations. You can buy being the person to make the better world you imagine and make it sustainable to perpetuate that.
These are all for sale and good business practices to boot.
I think it makes sense why one would care about what the hiring manager would think in the context of the quote the original comment includes.
Victims aren't always blameless, you can be your own victim. Most of the times in my career when I was burnt out and working too much it was because I was too emotionally invested in the work, management didn't care about the quality or improving things. Not caring about things beyond my ability to control has been the biggest change I've ever made to my mental health and was almost entirely under my control.
Others will be in very different situations.
Others will be in very different situations.
Detachment is pragmatic. But I don't blame people for giving a damn. Especially when companies demand the appearance of "passion".
Huh? I’ve known 3 people who burned out and every one of them had control over how much work to do and chose to take on an unsustainable amount.
Not saying that’s true in every case, but plenty of workaholics burn themselves out.
Not saying that’s true in every case, but plenty of workaholics burn themselves out.
Unless they were at the very top of their workplaces' hierarchies, that sounds like whoever was in charge of managing them had abdicated their duty.
One of them decided to spend his evenings working. His manager told him it wasn't required and he'll burn out. He did it anyways and burned out.
This holds a lot of truth. Look at your friends who are miserable in their jobs. Even when they move to a new job they remain miserable. At some point it becomes clear that some people are just always miserable. Burnout is a natural result of their personality. For many, proper mental health treatment can reverse the tide and allow them to live happy lives while working.
A lot of jobs are miserable; if someone moves to a new job and is also miserable there, I wouldn't assume that the fault lies with the person from a sample size of two.
I agree though that for many people their situation could be improved by the assistance of a mental health professional. But that doesn't mean that their problems are all caused internally and aren't to some degree a product of their work environment.
I agree though that for many people their situation could be improved by the assistance of a mental health professional. But that doesn't mean that their problems are all caused internally and aren't to some degree a product of their work environment.
I agree. There are two sides here. Managers with mental health issues (ego / lack of empathy) will make their subordinates miserable.
This point also makes me wonder if habitual burnouts are poor at evaluating potential managers during the interview process and as a result end up burning out repeatedly.
This point also makes me wonder if habitual burnouts are poor at evaluating potential managers during the interview process and as a result end up burning out repeatedly.
Being not very good at evaluating potential managers could be part of it, but also people with less work experience or fewer in-demand skills can't always afford to be choosy about their employer.
As a habitual burnout, there is some truth to this. For me, the solution to wanting to quit whatever job I had after 2 or 3 years turned out to be starting my own consultancy. Controlled burns are sort of built-in to consulting since you end up with a new client every 8 months or so anyway.
And yet, many companies offer what amounts to an absolutely abusive environments, and it'd be nice if we could stop blaming people for the fact that their places of employment are disaster areas.
If you need mental health treatment (that you otherwise wouldn't need) to do your job and not despair? There's a good chance there's something wrong with your job.
If you need mental health treatment (that you otherwise wouldn't need) to do your job and not despair? There's a good chance there's something wrong with your job.
Yes, I know many companies are abusive and chaotic. Hopefully those workers are able to seek employment elsewhere even in other countries where workers have more respect if necessary.
My friends have been miserable in their jobs when their jobs have been miserable.
And sadly there are some people who can't effectively be treated because inside they don't actually want to get better. There is a very good chance that a person miserable at their job could forget about moving to a new job and just quit, have all their needs taken care of to a high standard of living, and still be completely miserable.
How much are we talking about? The chance I mean
You know that's a decent question. If I had the time to do some research I'd look at them and point you to a bunch of studies comparing reported levels of mental health among retirees and maybe ideally some insights on how people in the FIRE movement feel after accomplishing their goal and not working anymore. Then you could have the concrete statistics you seem to want.
What I'd totally expect to find is that, even moreso than old people retiring and feeling a sense of meaninglessness, people who stop working while they're still in their prime working years will grow listless because we're meant to do more, we're meant to take on challenge, maybe even a sacrifice. That the same inner and outer factors that make us depressed at our jobs are actually just also making us depressed generally and reflect an inner pathology where we view ourselves as hopeless, inferior, lost or stuck.
But the info really isn't coming to me at a glance, I don't have time to really do that research, and I don't think I'd be any happier if I did. Unless someone else with the free time and scientific literacy to peruse to a week-old post comes by and contributes the data with a decisive percent chance to this discussion, you either trust my intuition that there's a substantial but hard-to-nail down effect where we're miserable on account of more than our jobs and an unspecified "many" could have all our needs met but still be miserable because you feel what I'm talking about too, or you have your own intuition about the nature of our sense of well-being and work and want to question it. Given a quick glance at your post history you seem like a well-intentioned firebrand of a libertarian who gets downvoted a lot, and I can respect you for that.
I 100% sincerely hope you and everyone else on here reading this has an absolutely fantastic day.
What I'd totally expect to find is that, even moreso than old people retiring and feeling a sense of meaninglessness, people who stop working while they're still in their prime working years will grow listless because we're meant to do more, we're meant to take on challenge, maybe even a sacrifice. That the same inner and outer factors that make us depressed at our jobs are actually just also making us depressed generally and reflect an inner pathology where we view ourselves as hopeless, inferior, lost or stuck.
But the info really isn't coming to me at a glance, I don't have time to really do that research, and I don't think I'd be any happier if I did. Unless someone else with the free time and scientific literacy to peruse to a week-old post comes by and contributes the data with a decisive percent chance to this discussion, you either trust my intuition that there's a substantial but hard-to-nail down effect where we're miserable on account of more than our jobs and an unspecified "many" could have all our needs met but still be miserable because you feel what I'm talking about too, or you have your own intuition about the nature of our sense of well-being and work and want to question it. Given a quick glance at your post history you seem like a well-intentioned firebrand of a libertarian who gets downvoted a lot, and I can respect you for that.
I 100% sincerely hope you and everyone else on here reading this has an absolutely fantastic day.
> Look at your friends who are miserable in their jobs. Even when they move to a new job they remain miserable.
Quite the opposite for me. I was miserable in my first job. Not a single day where I wanted to go to work. After 4 years I quit and everyone told me that I need to change my attitude, and that all jobs are like this.
They. Were. Completely. Wrong.
I was very happy with my next job.
My 3rd job sucked (for different reasons). I wasn't anywhere near burnout, but my first two jobs taught me one thing: Life is too short to stay at a job that sucked. I moved on to the 4th job which ended up being awesome.
If you're miserable at your job, it may not be you - even if everyone around you thinks it is.
This XKCD is very relevant:
https://xkcd.com/1768/
Quite the opposite for me. I was miserable in my first job. Not a single day where I wanted to go to work. After 4 years I quit and everyone told me that I need to change my attitude, and that all jobs are like this.
They. Were. Completely. Wrong.
I was very happy with my next job.
My 3rd job sucked (for different reasons). I wasn't anywhere near burnout, but my first two jobs taught me one thing: Life is too short to stay at a job that sucked. I moved on to the 4th job which ended up being awesome.
If you're miserable at your job, it may not be you - even if everyone around you thinks it is.
This XKCD is very relevant:
https://xkcd.com/1768/
There’s a lot of wisdom here.
I think that's a little too much victim blaming. It's true that some people are more susceptible to burn out. But having been in the workplace for almost 30 years now (ouch!) I think the modern work environment is much more set up to take advantage of people than it used. When I started out, working times were pretty fixed and once you were home you were home and no work was done. These days you have to make an effort to disconnect from work in the evening and in many companies there is a lot of subtle pressure to constantly respond to E-mails or other messages, even during nights and vacation.
So yes, people should resist more but the system is more and more stacked up to take advantage of people's weaknesses. And blaming it on the employees is the same strategy fast food or tobacco companies are using. Yes, you can resist but you are up against a lot of well paid people who constantly try to hack your psychology to make you do the things they want you to do, even if it's harmful to you.
So yes, people should resist more but the system is more and more stacked up to take advantage of people's weaknesses. And blaming it on the employees is the same strategy fast food or tobacco companies are using. Yes, you can resist but you are up against a lot of well paid people who constantly try to hack your psychology to make you do the things they want you to do, even if it's harmful to you.
The simple solution is to not tell the hiring manager that you burned out. They don't need to know exactly why you left your job. Hell you don't really have to tell them you are unemployed.
If you leave a long gap in your resume they will be curious of course. Say you quit to pursue a self-employment opportunity and it didn't work out.
If you leave a long gap in your resume they will be curious of course. Say you quit to pursue a self-employment opportunity and it didn't work out.
"Say you quit to pursue a self-employment opportunity and it didn't work out."
That assumes you get a chance to explain.
A lot of time your resume will just go in the trash as soon as they see a big gap in your work history.
And if you do get a chance to say you were pursuing some self-employment opportunity in the gap, that'll rarely be good enough, because what most hiring managers want to see that you kept your skills up to date in the interim and continued to do something related to your field (which people who are burnt out are unlikely to do). Otherwise you're going to fall behind... at least in the tech field.
Other things that matter are:
- how long were the gaps?
- how frequent were the gaps?
- how long did you work at each of your jobs?
If the gaps are long and/or the jobs are short, they're red flags. It doesn't mean you won't get hired, or won't get an interview, but every red flag lowers your chances.
With each gap you're digging yourself deeper and deeper in to a hole that will be progressively harder to climb out of.
My advice is to switch careers as soon as possible.. the longer you wait the harder it'll be. Your choice of alternate career doesn't have to be perfect, and it doesn't have to be "your calling" (often people don't even know their calling until they try it). It's important to try, and maybe try a whole bunch of different stuff until you find a good fit, and not to just languish and rot.
Easier said than done for someone suffering from burnout.. but that's the way out instead of sinking further in.
Of course breaks, therapy, and medication work for some, and I hope they work for you.
That assumes you get a chance to explain.
A lot of time your resume will just go in the trash as soon as they see a big gap in your work history.
And if you do get a chance to say you were pursuing some self-employment opportunity in the gap, that'll rarely be good enough, because what most hiring managers want to see that you kept your skills up to date in the interim and continued to do something related to your field (which people who are burnt out are unlikely to do). Otherwise you're going to fall behind... at least in the tech field.
Other things that matter are:
- how long were the gaps?
- how frequent were the gaps?
- how long did you work at each of your jobs?
If the gaps are long and/or the jobs are short, they're red flags. It doesn't mean you won't get hired, or won't get an interview, but every red flag lowers your chances.
With each gap you're digging yourself deeper and deeper in to a hole that will be progressively harder to climb out of.
My advice is to switch careers as soon as possible.. the longer you wait the harder it'll be. Your choice of alternate career doesn't have to be perfect, and it doesn't have to be "your calling" (often people don't even know their calling until they try it). It's important to try, and maybe try a whole bunch of different stuff until you find a good fit, and not to just languish and rot.
Easier said than done for someone suffering from burnout.. but that's the way out instead of sinking further in.
Of course breaks, therapy, and medication work for some, and I hope they work for you.
Answer: fill the gap in your resume with "consultancy work". You can even take the occasional easy freelance gig to make it true.
Well I think point was to avoid gap in resume`. How are we to know that hiring manager take it negatively? Honestly I would have thought hiring manager will appreciate the fact that I spoke real reason for leaving last job.
Maybe they could just check on specific skills they are looking to hire for. They can check if one is reasonably updated on recent industry/technology trends.
But if hiring folks are really hell bent on finding real reason on why I left the job and not working for last few years, I guess there is no practical way to escape out of it.
Maybe they could just check on specific skills they are looking to hire for. They can check if one is reasonably updated on recent industry/technology trends.
But if hiring folks are really hell bent on finding real reason on why I left the job and not working for last few years, I guess there is no practical way to escape out of it.
Perhaps worth noting burnout is a different animal for Autistic people[0] and can come upon undiagnosed Autistics from the [unconscious] need to mask.
The subject also reminds me of Gabor Mate's "When The Body Says No"[1] about his theory that some physical illness stems from chronic stress [like one would have 'pushing through' burnout].
[0]https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/autistic-burnout-explained... [1]https://drgabormate.com/preview/when-the-body-says-no-chapte...
The subject also reminds me of Gabor Mate's "When The Body Says No"[1] about his theory that some physical illness stems from chronic stress [like one would have 'pushing through' burnout].
[0]https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/autistic-burnout-explained... [1]https://drgabormate.com/preview/when-the-body-says-no-chapte...
In particular autistic burnout usually results in poorer emotional control (anger and depression swings), increased sensitivity to sensory input, and skills loss (becoming unable to do things that they once did naturally).
All of which make for a really vicious downward cycle.
All of which make for a really vicious downward cycle.
Thanks for sharing this. I had no clue this was a thing.
It will take me years to recover financially from my last burnout.. but not working for a year was still worth it.
I got to travel the world before Covid.
I learned the hard way that to avoid burnout, I have to take more unpaid days and be slow to respond outside business hours. I still tinker on my own software projects, to stay interested, but I am much more constrained about it now.
Self-care looks different for everyone.
For me, I run daily and paint wargame miniatures instead of playing video games at night. It is important for me to exercise, avoid screens and get outside much as possible. Last summer I got into solo hammock camping.
This is your life. It isn't happening later or somewhere else. Switch it up, make changes or else you will break instead of bend.
I got to travel the world before Covid.
I learned the hard way that to avoid burnout, I have to take more unpaid days and be slow to respond outside business hours. I still tinker on my own software projects, to stay interested, but I am much more constrained about it now.
Self-care looks different for everyone.
For me, I run daily and paint wargame miniatures instead of playing video games at night. It is important for me to exercise, avoid screens and get outside much as possible. Last summer I got into solo hammock camping.
This is your life. It isn't happening later or somewhere else. Switch it up, make changes or else you will break instead of bend.
> For those who can afford it, quitting has become the ultimate form of self-care.
It makes for a good title, and it is true. If you think about it, it has always been the case.
If you can afford not to, why would you work for the man, right?
It makes for a good title, and it is true. If you think about it, it has always been the case.
If you can afford not to, why would you work for the man, right?
Work can be rewarding and profitable. Being part of a skillful team that accomplishes meaningful goals can be a fun and personally enriching experience.
A workplace like this has become harder and harder to find over the years, in my experience. The measuring and routinisation of everything you do sucks the life out of jobs, imho. Even programming, which used to be such a creative experience now is do Jira, do next Jira, how fast are you doing the Jira's.
Edit:
For example, first job I just looked at
"You are:
Hungry, humble and smart..."
What other profession says nonsense like this, imagine saying this to a doctor or accountant.
Edit:
For example, first job I just looked at
"You are:
Hungry, humble and smart..."
What other profession says nonsense like this, imagine saying this to a doctor or accountant.
> What other profession says nonsense like this, imagine saying this to a doctor or accountant.
Med students have to jump through an unimaginable number of hoops to prove that they will put up with anything because they are supposed to be hungry to save the world, humble in the face of nature, and smart enough to get a top percentile on a never-ending series of standardized admission and licensing exams.
By the time they're actually working in the field, it's: Did you fill out that insurance paperwork so the hospital can get reimbursed? Good, here's the next stack of paperwork to fill out so the hospital can get reimbursed ad infinitum. How fast are you seeing patients? Any more than 20 minutes is too long. We don't have staffing levels to support that. Nurses are over-ratio, but try not to kill anyone with a mistake.
Med students have to jump through an unimaginable number of hoops to prove that they will put up with anything because they are supposed to be hungry to save the world, humble in the face of nature, and smart enough to get a top percentile on a never-ending series of standardized admission and licensing exams.
By the time they're actually working in the field, it's: Did you fill out that insurance paperwork so the hospital can get reimbursed? Good, here's the next stack of paperwork to fill out so the hospital can get reimbursed ad infinitum. How fast are you seeing patients? Any more than 20 minutes is too long. We don't have staffing levels to support that. Nurses are over-ratio, but try not to kill anyone with a mistake.
It is a strange job at leqst as a gp. What profession gets paided so much, given so much respect and than expected to work like a fast food cashier?
This results in legally defensible treatment but not necessarily the treatment you really need.
Hopefully the system can fix itself.
This results in legally defensible treatment but not necessarily the treatment you really need.
Hopefully the system can fix itself.
If you can find a shop that really, truly commits to XP/Agile/Lean/whatever, I recommend it. It's hard to find, but it is so much better and more productive than the JIRA ticket factories.
Sounds like a great way to spend 10-20 hours a week. That's rarely on the table, though.
It's interesting when you put it that way. I left a very nice position in a lot of ways because the organization changed, and went from "working with colleagues" to "some of my colleagues deciding they were going to be the man" and actually restructuring the organization to do that. The place went from being a good place to be -- not perfect but good -- to being completely pathological with lack of basic communication. I think the straw was actually that this was all affecting my spouses' career in a big way, and they were faced with turning down a really great opportunity for them. It was hard for me to say no, because I hated what this institution had turned into.
It gives me a cover for my insecurities (I'm "bringing home the bacon" so I have something tangible I contribute) and a low-guilt escape from my family (I'm an introvert, but also have a nagging feeling I should spend more time with my wife and kids).
Spend more time with them now. If you love them, don’t hide from them.
As an introvert who would sometimes rather avoid the toll of socializing, I spent the first four years of my marriage unintentionally neglecting my wife and family because I saw people around me working 12 hour days and weekends to provide. So I did the same. The damage that “bringing home the bacon” mentality had on my ability to turn attention to the relationships I truly cherish is painful.
I’m working past it now and looking for jobs with more PTO and after-hours support strategies that aren’t “quick, let’s call Bob” for every fire. I hope you never hit the point I had to to turn things around. One quote that really turned things around for me goes like this:
> when you die, your coworkers will be upset for a time but your job will soon replace you. But the memory of your loss will be with your family forever.
As an introvert who would sometimes rather avoid the toll of socializing, I spent the first four years of my marriage unintentionally neglecting my wife and family because I saw people around me working 12 hour days and weekends to provide. So I did the same. The damage that “bringing home the bacon” mentality had on my ability to turn attention to the relationships I truly cherish is painful.
I’m working past it now and looking for jobs with more PTO and after-hours support strategies that aren’t “quick, let’s call Bob” for every fire. I hope you never hit the point I had to to turn things around. One quote that really turned things around for me goes like this:
> when you die, your coworkers will be upset for a time but your job will soon replace you. But the memory of your loss will be with your family forever.
The people I know that quit like that drifted endlessly after.
Sure there is that initial “this is so liberating” energy but doesn’t take many missed paycheques for them to go quiet on that front.
Especially the ones that adopted a freelancing or entrepreneur path instead. Doesn’t exactly replace a paycheque overnight as hn knows.
…so of all my friends the ones I worry about the most are the ones that embraced this.
Sure there is that initial “this is so liberating” energy but doesn’t take many missed paycheques for them to go quiet on that front.
Especially the ones that adopted a freelancing or entrepreneur path instead. Doesn’t exactly replace a paycheque overnight as hn knows.
…so of all my friends the ones I worry about the most are the ones that embraced this.
When I quit I had one project paying for my life. That was stupid and kinda difficult, agreed. Over the years I sold some & build new things.
Thing is I have no interest getting back to a paycheck. I get money here, some there always more than I need and have more free time than most people.
I know what kind of people you are talking about, however it's not impossible to build some somewhat stable recurring income.
Thing is I have no interest getting back to a paycheck. I get money here, some there always more than I need and have more free time than most people.
I know what kind of people you are talking about, however it's not impossible to build some somewhat stable recurring income.
Well then, they couldn't afford it.
I am planning on quitting at 33, and I am doing that with a real plan, not "freelancing"
I am planning on quitting at 33, and I am doing that with a real plan, not "freelancing"
I'm really considering this. I'm thinking of quitting my job as a data scientist, and working part time delivering propane in my truck while I leetcode hardcore to get into a SWE position. I'm so depressed right now that I'm not sure I have the motivation to sustain that. I barely have enough mental energy for my current job, much less changing careers which will be more intense.
Keep in mind that from inside the cave, it's always blinding outside. But the moment you step out, your eyes will adapt and it won't be as bad. Cheers mate
Thank you.
Why do you want to move from DS to SWE? I've been thinking of moving from SWE to DS because I don't enjoy the unpaid 24/7 on call support, constant fear of something breaking, having to deal with PM's on my case for the next jira ticket. Also making crud apps is more often then not less mentally challenging then DS.
More money. Much more money. I could afford a house, not just an apartment with a downstairs neighbor who screams at me for making too much noise. I could have a yard and garage. Don't have to work with marketing folks as much or spend so much time explaining technical concepts. Get to just write code and not deal with so much disappointment in models not working. I'd rather crank out CRUD than spend weeks on something without being able to get it to work. But being on call without extra pay really sucks as does Agile. Granted, our DS team is moving to Agile as well. I want a less mentally challenging job, though oddly DS interviews are far less mentally taxing than the Leetcode gauntlet. Grass always seems greener I guess.
Where I live DS pays much more for the same experience the SWE so maybe I am a bit biased on the money side too. But I get you on the models not working thing, I've been there before. Thankfully it was personal projects and not for work. Cranking out CRUD apps does give you some sort of satisfaction I guess although I sorely miss doing math because my background is in engineering. If you have to do algo tests I guess you're in the USA? I've interviewed with companies in EU and Africa and everytime it was just a take home test building something according to spec using specified languages and frameworks. It's not that hard to do. I'm actually doing one right now for a senior dev golang job although I never wrote more than 1k lines of code in golang before lol
how are people managing healthcare.
COBRA is too expensive for me ACA plans are terrible unless you go for the most expensive one.
COBRA is too expensive for me ACA plans are terrible unless you go for the most expensive one.
I quit my job and qualified for Medicaid. It isn't means tested anymore since ACA was passed. Based only on income in the month of eligibility.
I have been voluntarily unemployed since December. Obviously if you make money this doesn't work.
To clarify: I own my house and have hundreds of thousands in assets and I am qualified for Medicaid. I didn't believe it either. The quality of care is great. State is PA.
Edit: medicaid, not Medicare. I am not even close to 65.
I have been voluntarily unemployed since December. Obviously if you make money this doesn't work.
To clarify: I own my house and have hundreds of thousands in assets and I am qualified for Medicaid. I didn't believe it either. The quality of care is great. State is PA.
Edit: medicaid, not Medicare. I am not even close to 65.
Be young & healthy and risk it with whatever state low-income health care exists. In WA, I had an injury that required a 2-night hospital stay. I ended up owing $500 a few months later under Apple Health https://www.hca.wa.gov/health-care-services-supports/apple-h..., which I gladly paid.
I’ve found myself in this position lately. I’ve been tempted to just throw the towel in because I can afford to take time off. Is my personal health more important than living out of savings until I’m happy again? Is there another career outside of this id be good at?
I’ve taken time off before after hitting my four year vest window and dealing with an office bully. I said forget it and just quit one day. Took a month off before reality set in that I can’t stop learning skills in my career or otherwise I’d be antiquated fairly quickly if I ever came back.
I’ve taken time off before after hitting my four year vest window and dealing with an office bully. I said forget it and just quit one day. Took a month off before reality set in that I can’t stop learning skills in my career or otherwise I’d be antiquated fairly quickly if I ever came back.
I imagine this was somewhat tongue in cheek, otherwise her boss at The Cut might say “ya know what, good idea, we’re letting you go to pursue a job that appeals more to you.”
Eh, many writers are part-time and have dayjobs.
That's a lot of words to say work sucks.
> Coined in the 1970s by American psychologist Herbert Freudenberger, it referred to the consequences of severe stress and “high ideals” within the “helping professions” like medicine and social work.
Walking out is one way to communicate that you want to be free to live the ideals you choose...
FWIW I'm taking 92 days unpaid leave from my FAANG job. Just uploaded a YouTube video about it [1]. It's already been a month, and the freedom has been an incredible boon. Started exersing more, reading more, just took a Jiu Jitsu class, did a quick trip to Miami to visit all my NYC expats. I guess I'm not alone in feeling burnt out and needing a break.
[1] https://youtu.be/7vSBCZ1mnL4
I have been watching youtube videos of folks living a simpler lifestyle out of a RV/caravan and I am envious of that.
I got laid off last Oct due to Covid and got a nice cash settlement due to my years worked.
People expect me to be all depressed and moping about for not having a job (SAP developer) but I have never been happier !!!!.
I got laid off last Oct due to Covid and got a nice cash settlement due to my years worked.
People expect me to be all depressed and moping about for not having a job (SAP developer) but I have never been happier !!!!.
The tech industry runs on damaged people. People don't age out, they just get better.
I've done this multiple times ~4-6 months between jobs. I'd like to be able to do it for years, maybe next round...
I hope this enlightens a new age of creativity and the arts.
Hasn’t idleness always been a common practice among the aristocracy?
This option doesn't exist for people on a H1B without uprooting their entire life.
No it doesn't, but maybe your children one day will be able to, after all, why else are you slaving away? To give your children a better life. At least that's what my parents did
Yeah it does, just get out of the US.
Yeah, just uproot the life you've built for 20 years, take your kids out of school and just leave. How easy. Who cares if you have had cancer, are valuable enough to the industry to make $1M+/yr. We should just go back to where we came from, right?
> Mayors, academics, journalists, financial analysts, even pastors — all of them, it seemed, were quitting their jobs.
LOL @ burnout. The people who are really burnt out work in hospitals and we all pressure them not to quit. There's nothing burnout-ish about the pandemic, quite the opposite, it's a long pause, a period of silence which gave people ample time and space to reassess their options.
LOL @ burnout. The people who are really burnt out work in hospitals and we all pressure them not to quit. There's nothing burnout-ish about the pandemic, quite the opposite, it's a long pause, a period of silence which gave people ample time and space to reassess their options.
Perhaps it's a period a long pause or a period of silence for you, but to assume that's the case for everyone who's not a hospital worker is incredibly naive and harmful.
Having my whole income dry out exactly a year ago surely was a relaxing pause like experience .... And honestly I got it easy, poor people working in culture.
Terminology may be a source of complication here. The word "burnout" became closely associated with drug addicts experiencing serious problems back in the 60s and 70s and has had stigma about it ever since.
In my experience "exhaustion" is a less provocative while also being a more accurate description of what is going on. Being in a competitive, high productivity mode as much as possible can take a toll on people especially in the modern always connected environment.
In my experience "exhaustion" is a less provocative while also being a more accurate description of what is going on. Being in a competitive, high productivity mode as much as possible can take a toll on people especially in the modern always connected environment.
This seems like a weird quibble to have. "Burned out from work" has been an acceptable term for "extremely stressed and exhausted from work" for at least a decade.
The workaholism comparison to drug addiction is actually pretty apt, too.
The workaholism comparison to drug addiction is actually pretty apt, too.
Yes, I recall using the phrase "burned out from work" over 20 years ago. Maybe m0llusk is thinking of the phrase "cracked out"?
In this profession, "burnout" has a well-understood meaning. If you say you're suffering from burnout, people will mostly know what you mean, if you say "exhaustion" people will figure you're just not sleeping enough.
No one is going to assume you did a ton of psychedelics or speed and broke your brain, even if that's what happened (I rather suspect stimulant use is a factor in more programmer burnout than one might like to think).
No one is going to assume you did a ton of psychedelics or speed and broke your brain, even if that's what happened (I rather suspect stimulant use is a factor in more programmer burnout than one might like to think).
At some point some people come to a breaking point... what used to be known as a "nervous breakdown". I think of it as a progressive paralysis, a psychological (not physical) inability to continue.
The lucky ones can "just snap out of it", take a break and come back refreshed, or switch jobs and everything's ok again.. or at least bearable.
For the rest of us, it's not so easy. Yet, paradoxically, and this can be a source of tremendous guilt, "getting over it" should be the easiest thing in the world.
"You just..." fill in the blank.. pick up the phone, dial the number, take a shower, brush your teeth, get out of bed, put on your clothes, go to work, do what you know how to do and what you've been doing for X number of years all along, deal with your colleagues, deal with your boss, eat your lunch, eat your dinner, go back to sleep, wake up for another day, rinse and repeat day in and day out again and again...
Some can manage it, but for some it gets to be too much.. simple things, such simple things... most can do it, their whole lives, they just do it, why can't we?