Stop overstimulating your mind with digital entertainment(quintusertorius.com)
quintusertorius.com
Stop overstimulating your mind with digital entertainment
https://quintusertorius.com/letyourmindrest/
125 comments
I used to be a snob and say that I hated country music or whatever, but now I try and appreciate all the music I hear. There are definitely songs I don't like, and there are genres that tend to have a lower "hit" rate for me (country being one of them), but every genre has bands and songs that are worth listening to. If someone recorded it, they probably put some soul into it... why not give it a listen?
I can't recall who said this, but one suggestion that has worked for me is to listen to a certain genre exclusively for 30 days. Country, Hip-Hop, House, various kinds of Classical. At the end of 30 days I always have songs that I really like, and kinda get the genre even if it's not going to replace my love for 80s trash rock.
I view music as I do eating - sometimes it's fun to sit and savor something, other times I crave junk.
Nothing wrong with either. Sure there are definitely artists I respect more than others, but sometimes it's more fun to just put on some trashy [insert genre here, I wont get specific] and enjoy.
Nothing wrong with either. Sure there are definitely artists I respect more than others, but sometimes it's more fun to just put on some trashy [insert genre here, I wont get specific] and enjoy.
There are pieces on all genres that speak to me. If there’s a genre you don’t like that is telling you that there is a feeling in life that you have not yet keyed into.
This author sounds like someone who has finally figured out how their body works, and is now desecrating their revelation by posting it online to help digitally overstimulate their peers. Bravo!
I'd bet my bottom dollar this statue avatar blog and Richard Weaver have very similar opinions on jazz and other "degenerate music".
Yeah it's possibly a little snobby but most forms of music before 1900 i.e. 'classical' even if not technically classical period ... are 'long form'.
So pieces will be 10-20 minutes as opposed to 3 minutes.
That allows for a different listening experience.
I suggest something different for working: light EDM.
EDM is not designed to be 'actively listened to'. It's designed for your body, not your ears, it's generally 'beat and rhythm founded' instead of 'melody, chord and phrasing founded' - and so you can have it on for much longer and still use your mind for work.
Drum Circles last for hours, you can have a conversation while enjoying it.
So you don't waste great music while working away, you can burn the tedium of mediocre electronica all without looking for the dopamine chorus / mega riff.
So pieces will be 10-20 minutes as opposed to 3 minutes.
That allows for a different listening experience.
I suggest something different for working: light EDM.
EDM is not designed to be 'actively listened to'. It's designed for your body, not your ears, it's generally 'beat and rhythm founded' instead of 'melody, chord and phrasing founded' - and so you can have it on for much longer and still use your mind for work.
Drum Circles last for hours, you can have a conversation while enjoying it.
So you don't waste great music while working away, you can burn the tedium of mediocre electronica all without looking for the dopamine chorus / mega riff.
yeah that particular passage is cringe and colors the whole article as condescending, when in reality there are a lot of good points made.
Funny way to spell “Techno”.
OnT: The title says overstimulating but with guidelines like that it feels more like criticism of stimulation from a broad range of bad entertainment. Is digitally distributed classical music a no go now?
OnT: The title says overstimulating but with guidelines like that it feels more like criticism of stimulation from a broad range of bad entertainment. Is digitally distributed classical music a no go now?
Honestly, perhaps.
Think of digital consumption like any drug or vice. The severity of its effects are different for every person, and so is the solution for each person.
Some alcoholics can do a social drink with friends as long as they don't drink at home alone. Others can't touch it.
For me, there are times when the mere presence of an internet-connected device in my headspace has a weight on me - a small weight, but it's there. I find myself feeling truly disconnected from the digital river /better/ when I put music on the record player and put my phone on silent in another room, dissuaded from touching it, "liking" a song, or responding to an unexpected text.
Think of digital consumption like any drug or vice. The severity of its effects are different for every person, and so is the solution for each person.
Some alcoholics can do a social drink with friends as long as they don't drink at home alone. Others can't touch it.
For me, there are times when the mere presence of an internet-connected device in my headspace has a weight on me - a small weight, but it's there. I find myself feeling truly disconnected from the digital river /better/ when I put music on the record player and put my phone on silent in another room, dissuaded from touching it, "liking" a song, or responding to an unexpected text.
Honestly - trying to finely curate the art that we consume is pretty far in the direction of Brave New World to begin with. Art comes in many forms and the classification of it will vary wildly from person to person.
This may be an unpopular opinion and sound ad-hominem, but in my experience with people, this overdone “modern music bad, classical music good” shtick is a signal of intellectual posturing.
I also wonder if the author can listen to any other classical music except Western classical the same way without any "break-in period" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_classical_and_art_musi....
> There is an amazing variety of wonderful modern music in a multitude of genres.
Watching Rick Beato on YouTube dissect the latest top 10 is exceptionally enlightening. There are some exceptions, but there's quite a lot of interesting things going on, musically, in pretty much every song.
Watching Rick Beato on YouTube dissect the latest top 10 is exceptionally enlightening. There are some exceptions, but there's quite a lot of interesting things going on, musically, in pretty much every song.
"The quality of music. Modern music is like junk food. Produced and processed industrially. Pushed to consumers through aggressive marketing To gorge on classical music results almost impossible as it is while eating for example meat or fish."
> There is an amazing variety of wonderful modern music in a multitude of genres.
Truth. I picked up playing guitar over the pandemic. While I primarily play bluesy / folky / indie stuff on my own time, I find myself listening to 80s metal for inspiration because it’s honestly super nerdy from a music standpoint. You’ll actually probably learn more applicable technique dissecting an Iron Maiden song than a classical piece.
Truth. I picked up playing guitar over the pandemic. While I primarily play bluesy / folky / indie stuff on my own time, I find myself listening to 80s metal for inspiration because it’s honestly super nerdy from a music standpoint. You’ll actually probably learn more applicable technique dissecting an Iron Maiden song than a classical piece.
> I observe many people, interestingly the majority of it are girls, that seem to never stop messaging with their boyfriend, their friends, their mother,…
It was just the same old "I wish I was deep" stoic drivel till here and it's clear this was probably written by a 17 year old.
It was just the same old "I wish I was deep" stoic drivel till here and it's clear this was probably written by a 17 year old.
I don't exactly disagree with the premise but the tone is so authoritative and harsh that it's difficult to take seriously.
Not to mention pulling out "A Brave New World" after the first paragraph. This reads like a college freshman essay, including the typos. It's "time and time again" not "times and times again".
Not to mention pulling out "A Brave New World" after the first paragraph. This reads like a college freshman essay, including the typos. It's "time and time again" not "times and times again".
There is no evidence dopamine fasting does anything. It's just the latest techie health fad.
You're right, dopamine dieting is much better. Dopamine veganism, if you will. Humans didn't evolve this crappy hormone because we were surrounded by stimuli, but exactly because we weren't. You gain nothing by being stimulated.
My reasoning is it's an entire profession to measure flavour profiles and quantities of food additives, hooks and drops in songs, microtransaction timings in games, et cetera. The science is clear, we simply ought to apply it in reverse.
I'm fairly certain the average neanderthal would feel ill after drinking a 500ml Monster and listening to djent.
My reasoning is it's an entire profession to measure flavour profiles and quantities of food additives, hooks and drops in songs, microtransaction timings in games, et cetera. The science is clear, we simply ought to apply it in reverse.
I'm fairly certain the average neanderthal would feel ill after drinking a 500ml Monster and listening to djent.
This is a pretty demonstrably false statement. I think what you mean to say is that dopamine fasting may have no concrete benefits? But certainly manipulating/controlling your own dopamine levels does do something, unless you're contending that dopamine itself does nothing, which you're not. Dopamine fasting does let your receptors upregulate and resensitize. Take Adderall every day for a month and see how you feel -- you'll realize your receptors have been pretty downregulated and you need a break.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine_fasting
> Detractors say that the overall concept of dopamine fasting is unscientific since the chemical plays a vital role in everyday life; literally reducing it would not be good for a person,[10] and removing a particular stimulus like social media would not reduce the levels of dopamine in the body, only the stimulation of it.[10] Ciara McCabe, Associate Professor in Neuroscience at the University of Reading, considers the idea that the brain could be "reset" by avoiding dopamine triggers for a short time to be "nonsense".[9]
> Cameron Sepah, who has promoted the practice of dopamine fasting, agrees that the name is misleading and says that its purpose is not to literally reduce dopamine in the body[9] but rather to reduce the impulsive behaviors that are rewarded by it.[6]
For further thought: Stimulant medication significantly improves excessive impulsivity in those with some types of executive function disorders. ADHD is extremely well studied in this regard.
> Detractors say that the overall concept of dopamine fasting is unscientific since the chemical plays a vital role in everyday life; literally reducing it would not be good for a person,[10] and removing a particular stimulus like social media would not reduce the levels of dopamine in the body, only the stimulation of it.[10] Ciara McCabe, Associate Professor in Neuroscience at the University of Reading, considers the idea that the brain could be "reset" by avoiding dopamine triggers for a short time to be "nonsense".[9]
> Cameron Sepah, who has promoted the practice of dopamine fasting, agrees that the name is misleading and says that its purpose is not to literally reduce dopamine in the body[9] but rather to reduce the impulsive behaviors that are rewarded by it.[6]
For further thought: Stimulant medication significantly improves excessive impulsivity in those with some types of executive function disorders. ADHD is extremely well studied in this regard.
Sorry, I did make a mistake in marrying my argument to "fasting." I meant, modulation I guess. You don't want to blast your system with dopamine constantly. Also "reducing the impulsive behaviors that are rewarded by it" is basically the same thing as "don't do the thing that gives you dopamine".
The question is whether this still applies if in the last statement you replace Adderall with social media or "modern music". I've personally found no benefit from deliberately limiting digital stimulation. But these things are of course very difficult to measure and assess objectively.
Lol no, it clearly works. It's call de-sensitization.
It feels like the author here is accidentally right for all the wrong reasons. The central premise — that being constantly on digital devices prevents the boredom that ultimately inspires us to do something better — is pretty trivial to be honest.
But by framing it in moralistic language, it comes off as insultingly trite. For conversations like this I find it helpful to bring the focus to your personal experience. Say “this is what I did and how it affected me” and not “you have to do these things to be happy”. The former allows the reader to make an inference and decide for themselves if your experience sounds compelling, the latter is a command with no authority.
But by framing it in moralistic language, it comes off as insultingly trite. For conversations like this I find it helpful to bring the focus to your personal experience. Say “this is what I did and how it affected me” and not “you have to do these things to be happy”. The former allows the reader to make an inference and decide for themselves if your experience sounds compelling, the latter is a command with no authority.
>Spotify and its fellows allow us to constantly switching [sic] track [sic], always trying to hit the next “high”. Have you ever noticed that after while no music satisfies you?
No?
The author sounds like such a condescending, self-congratulatory and ill-informed asshole. I don't understand how this is upvoted here at all.
No?
The author sounds like such a condescending, self-congratulatory and ill-informed asshole. I don't understand how this is upvoted here at all.
It's very Jordan Peterson-y in its prescriptiveness; he definitely has his fans on HN.
If I get bored of music, I just find some new stuff. Sometimes it takes a while, but yeah no, no idea what this guy is talking about.
I think Deep Work is a much better discussion of this problem; without the shame/disgust/morality play that's being enacted here.
Do you mean Digital Minimalism? Cal Newport is the author of both Deep Work and Digital Minimalism but the latter book is the one that deals with the topic of the article.
I think Deep Work is highly related to the discussion of distractions and superficial "candy like" experiences. Pretty tough to do deep work (and conversely, easy to do shallow work) when you're assailed with notifications, constantly responding to texts, etc.
Deep Work's first maybe 3 chapters are all you need. Cal Newport is a master of writing some good blog posts on a topic, and then with padding them with 250 pages of boring drivel, and selling it as a book.
facts
> I started to feel a deep feeling of disgust.
I skimmed the article very quickly since I didn't like the authors writing style. That line at the end struck me though. I'm not against cynicism in general but it is particularly destructive when combined with bitterness and contempt.
That helped me realize why I couldn't get through a paragraph of the essay without wanting to skip forward. This rant isn't coming from a place of love but instead it feels like it is coming from a place of contempt. It seems the author feels they are above others. They are dictating the correct behaviour like a priest to sinners.
I skimmed the article very quickly since I didn't like the authors writing style. That line at the end struck me though. I'm not against cynicism in general but it is particularly destructive when combined with bitterness and contempt.
That helped me realize why I couldn't get through a paragraph of the essay without wanting to skip forward. This rant isn't coming from a place of love but instead it feels like it is coming from a place of contempt. It seems the author feels they are above others. They are dictating the correct behaviour like a priest to sinners.
Boredom is useful for creativity, I’ve found. How do you set yourself up to be creative?
For me, I'll unplug the internet, but that's because my creative outlet is programming and it's really really hard to have the discipline to program and not browser the web (case in point I'm writing this reply.)
As developers this is challenging since so many of our tools require network access. I've had minimal luck with various site blockers since you can always just disable them. So here's my plan:
1) Prepare. Download documentation you will want and invest in dead-tree copies of relevent books.
2) Have 2 desks, one with your computer, and one without. I physically move to the non-computer desk for design work and thinking, then get up and move to the computer desk to program. A comfy chair for more creative thinking is a nice addition to this setup.
3) Make it really hard to turn the internet back on. When I started this I would actually go and put the modem outside in my car to make it annoying enough to turn the internet back on. As I've gotten more comfortable with this practice I find it's enough to just go and turn off the modem, but I've found that simply turning off wifi on the computer is not enough distance.
Sounds extreme, but by seeing how much work I need to do to disconnect has taught me how much of an addict I really am and given the motivation to work on the problem.
Through this process I've gained a new level of respect for Emacs. The built-in documentation browser is amazing, both the tools for browsing and the quality of the documentation. I'm able to figure out everything I need to about Emacs without touching the network.
As developers this is challenging since so many of our tools require network access. I've had minimal luck with various site blockers since you can always just disable them. So here's my plan:
1) Prepare. Download documentation you will want and invest in dead-tree copies of relevent books.
2) Have 2 desks, one with your computer, and one without. I physically move to the non-computer desk for design work and thinking, then get up and move to the computer desk to program. A comfy chair for more creative thinking is a nice addition to this setup.
3) Make it really hard to turn the internet back on. When I started this I would actually go and put the modem outside in my car to make it annoying enough to turn the internet back on. As I've gotten more comfortable with this practice I find it's enough to just go and turn off the modem, but I've found that simply turning off wifi on the computer is not enough distance.
Sounds extreme, but by seeing how much work I need to do to disconnect has taught me how much of an addict I really am and given the motivation to work on the problem.
Through this process I've gained a new level of respect for Emacs. The built-in documentation browser is amazing, both the tools for browsing and the quality of the documentation. I'm able to figure out everything I need to about Emacs without touching the network.
I totally relate to this. The Internet is so addictive it's easy to just switch away from getting useful work done. I can't turn off the whole Internet for the house or my family would string me up, but I may try something more localized. Here I am on HN commenting...
This also makes me want to put a lock on the refrigerator that can only be unlocked by running a certain distance on a treadmill. LOL. I have to create artificial grit, I don't have an overabundance of the natural kind.
This also makes me want to put a lock on the refrigerator that can only be unlocked by running a certain distance on a treadmill. LOL. I have to create artificial grit, I don't have an overabundance of the natural kind.
I find that boredom is death for creativity, but tedium is a goldmine. If I'm not doing anything, I don't think of anything. If I have a tedious but active chore, I need to bring a notepad along with me to capture all the ideas.
I had a friend in college who was a writer. He intentionally spent a summer lettuce farming for this specific reason. He was pretty happy with the results creativity-wise.
> If I have a tedious but active chore, I need to bring a notepad along with me to capture all the ideas
I find I'm quite mentally creative when doing tasks such as cutting the grass, which I don't find tedious, but instead require a sort of process-control mental activity. I actually enjoy cutting the grass for its physical side combined with the opportunity to get a good looking result from a task that takes about an hour. Hoovering doesn't inspire the same mental creativity.
I find I'm quite mentally creative when doing tasks such as cutting the grass, which I don't find tedious, but instead require a sort of process-control mental activity. I actually enjoy cutting the grass for its physical side combined with the opportunity to get a good looking result from a task that takes about an hour. Hoovering doesn't inspire the same mental creativity.
For me, at least, cutting the grass is a rather meditative activity where I'm sorta in nature - enjoying a relatively nice day (I avoid cutting grass when it's raining because why would you ever do that). None of my troubles are in view (unless the exterior needs work) so I can relax and enjoy it. Compare that to vacuuming where you're within your space but aware of the fact that things are messy - potentially needing to contend with children or pets to actually get vacuuming done, and frequently shifting furniture and thinking about how to finish off the task in the quickest manner.
To me mowing the lawn is an activity where my mind can disengage apart from watching for the occasional suicidal squirrel - while vacuuming is an activity where my brain is constantly on the watch for something being amiss and me accidentally chewing up an expensive cable or rug.
This all aligns closely with what I think the distinction is for tasks that allow you to be creative - something relatively straightforward that requires your hands to be busy but where you can mostly zone out. For this purpose I like eating "slow fruit" namely pomegranates and grapefruits - where I take both fruits apart laboriously by hand after peeling them (eat the grapefruit like an orange - but peel each slice). While I'm doing this my mind is free to do whatever and my hands continue with only minimal guidance.
To me mowing the lawn is an activity where my mind can disengage apart from watching for the occasional suicidal squirrel - while vacuuming is an activity where my brain is constantly on the watch for something being amiss and me accidentally chewing up an expensive cable or rug.
This all aligns closely with what I think the distinction is for tasks that allow you to be creative - something relatively straightforward that requires your hands to be busy but where you can mostly zone out. For this purpose I like eating "slow fruit" namely pomegranates and grapefruits - where I take both fruits apart laboriously by hand after peeling them (eat the grapefruit like an orange - but peel each slice). While I'm doing this my mind is free to do whatever and my hands continue with only minimal guidance.
You can best figure out how you want your next vacation to go during you dayjob.
Go to the beach for a couple of days to get a groundbreaking work related idea.
Go to the beach for a couple of days to get a groundbreaking work related idea.
I reqd articles how to set up myself for being creative. ;)
I occasionally buy licenses for creativity software.
Kinda similar to how I use my gym membership ;)
Kinda similar to how I use my gym membership ;)
My personal experience is that creativity, paradoxically, is a lot like exercise: it's often best done on a regular basis, on a schedule, and you need time to accumulate momentum, and you get better at it with repetition.
It's also best done without the pressure of "I must come up with something". Sometimes there really is pressure and I have to spend some time to trick myself to build up momentum.
I like to schedule time to go on a 30 minute walk with my phone in Do Not Disturb mode.
It's also best done without the pressure of "I must come up with something". Sometimes there really is pressure and I have to spend some time to trick myself to build up momentum.
I like to schedule time to go on a 30 minute walk with my phone in Do Not Disturb mode.
Also related to this weird delay after thinking about something. You often get new ideas 15min after you stopped trying. You need to stop to explore mentally somehow.
"Classical music and no skipping"
LOL.
That's all I need to see from the author to know to ignore his advice. Logic dictates that if you're looking to suppress excess stimulation, then no music is better than background music. Likewise, if focusing is your goal, then a pair of simple noise cancelling headphones or maybe a nice nature sounds track would be better. Classical music, after all, was created at the whims of an elite ruling class. Big money and its influence on the art form didn't begin with modern music.
"I observe many people, interestingly the majority of it are girls, that seem to never stop messaging with their boyfriend, their friends, their mother,…"
Life advice from a child. What a brave new world, indeed.
LOL.
That's all I need to see from the author to know to ignore his advice. Logic dictates that if you're looking to suppress excess stimulation, then no music is better than background music. Likewise, if focusing is your goal, then a pair of simple noise cancelling headphones or maybe a nice nature sounds track would be better. Classical music, after all, was created at the whims of an elite ruling class. Big money and its influence on the art form didn't begin with modern music.
"I observe many people, interestingly the majority of it are girls, that seem to never stop messaging with their boyfriend, their friends, their mother,…"
Life advice from a child. What a brave new world, indeed.
I struggle when I stay in a room alone with my thoughts. I start feeling heat in my head and desperation starts to kick in even though it's not physically painful. It's such a strange thing, my mind just wants to be distracted, kind of like a substance addiction. I've never taken it seriously to further investigate what's going on in there. I wonder if others experience something similar? I can tolerate a few minutes before my mind starts to wander and before I know it I am no longer in a room doing nothing, but engaged with a screen.
Makes me feel like I have no free will.
Makes me feel like I have no free will.
Force yourself to sit in silence and meditate. There is no easy solution. Just do it.
You are addicted my friend. I'd suggest some sort of anti addiction therapy.
It's happening just a few too many times but when I let my phone inside when going out for long I can sense a little "should I go back in case ..." followed by a "to hell with the web" while my brain oozing of joy. A deep "finally.."
Super strange honestly
Super strange honestly
An alternative to reading this awfully preachy, condescending blog post is to instead watch this clip of Andrei Tarkovsky[1].
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vvdtaaprzw
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vvdtaaprzw
[deleted]
> How to avoid digital autism and let your mind rest and recover
This line couldn't have been written by someone who's opinion I respect or care about. Basically stopped right there.
This line couldn't have been written by someone who's opinion I respect or care about. Basically stopped right there.
Same. That being said I googled the term and it's not as derogatory as I thought[0], still not good though.
[0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5849631/
[0]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5849631/
I'm more against how oxymoronic it sounds. Many of the smartest programmers who I've worked with are on the autism spectrum, so I don't really see what the writer is lobbying against. Conflating a biological disability like autism with the choice of being lethargic or easily-impressed is just terrible writing, on an objective level. Their simile basically entirely operates on your willingness to give into bias.
Can we just remove this? It's an abstract for this guys motivational book. We get that taking your hand off your penis allowed you to do something with your life. Good content for other teenagers maybe?
> With the introduction of the TV in the 60s, the PC in the 90s and the smartphone in the last decade, we have changed the main way of consuming information
That's what people used to say a decade after the printing press was invented too.
And the bit about music is ridiculous; elitism based on ignorance. Anyone claiming that only their favorite genre is acceptable to listen to either has a too high opinion of themselves or has been missing out on >99% of available content, perhaps even due to a fear of "overstimulating" their mind.
Some idle time now and then, maybe at a regular walk outside, is definitely helpful not only for creativity. But that doesn't mean the rest of the daily activities are bad. At least for me I'd say both are necessary.
That's what people used to say a decade after the printing press was invented too.
And the bit about music is ridiculous; elitism based on ignorance. Anyone claiming that only their favorite genre is acceptable to listen to either has a too high opinion of themselves or has been missing out on >99% of available content, perhaps even due to a fear of "overstimulating" their mind.
Some idle time now and then, maybe at a regular walk outside, is definitely helpful not only for creativity. But that doesn't mean the rest of the daily activities are bad. At least for me I'd say both are necessary.
Are there any interesting theories on the interplay of creativity and boredom?
The only worthwhile advice here is to turn off notifications.
There are much better articles on the topics of digital addictions, and as a bonus, they come without the paternalistic writing style. "Listen to classical music only!" OK grandpa.
He does have a point when he mentions that music in the Spotify era is produced in industrial quantities, and can be quite generic. I also do agree that playlists engender a tendency to rapidly switch from song to song, compared to listening to a full album. But you can't fix that with classical music. If people wanted to seek it out themselves, they would.
He does have a point when he mentions that music in the Spotify era is produced in industrial quantities, and can be quite generic. I also do agree that playlists engender a tendency to rapidly switch from song to song, compared to listening to a full album. But you can't fix that with classical music. If people wanted to seek it out themselves, they would.
There's just so much of this that is the author insisting that his preferences are right and anyone else is wrong.
"Modern music is like junk food." There's amazing modern music, and total crap. Labeling the millions of hours of modern music as all bad is at best lazy, and at worst has undertones of racism (the only good music is that produced by dead white guys).
"Let me tell you: regulating your emotions with an external tool is dangerous. You start depending on it. You crave it when you don’t have it. It is called addiction." - again, just insanely lazy generalization. I regulate my emotions with an external tool most days. It's called exercise. It is a very good thing, not an addiction (trust me, I'd love to stop, I really don't enjoy exercise at all).
The bit about photos? I visited my mom's house recently and looked at the photos of my deceased grandparents. According to this guy, that's going to keep me in a slump.
This piece is generally pretty lazy ("I bet that 95% of Millenials start their day by looking at the phone." - first of all, if you're going to criticize a whole generation, at least spell it right, and second of all, why don't you do some kind of research instead of making unsupported assumptions about the behavior of a group of millions of people?) and extremely arrogant.
I award OP no points and may god have mercy on his soul.
"Modern music is like junk food." There's amazing modern music, and total crap. Labeling the millions of hours of modern music as all bad is at best lazy, and at worst has undertones of racism (the only good music is that produced by dead white guys).
"Let me tell you: regulating your emotions with an external tool is dangerous. You start depending on it. You crave it when you don’t have it. It is called addiction." - again, just insanely lazy generalization. I regulate my emotions with an external tool most days. It's called exercise. It is a very good thing, not an addiction (trust me, I'd love to stop, I really don't enjoy exercise at all).
The bit about photos? I visited my mom's house recently and looked at the photos of my deceased grandparents. According to this guy, that's going to keep me in a slump.
This piece is generally pretty lazy ("I bet that 95% of Millenials start their day by looking at the phone." - first of all, if you're going to criticize a whole generation, at least spell it right, and second of all, why don't you do some kind of research instead of making unsupported assumptions about the behavior of a group of millions of people?) and extremely arrogant.
I award OP no points and may god have mercy on his soul.
Please don't fulminate or post ranty dismissals of other people's work. It leads to shallow, dyspeptic conversation and worse (such as the utterly lame flamewar https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27370883, which you provoked) and we're hoping for something different than that here.
On HN idea the idea is to post out of curiosity and intellectual interest. If one article doesn't engage your curiosity, perhaps another will. Annoyances are best left where you encountered them, rather than hauled into the HN threads.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: it unfortunately looks like you've been posting in the flamewar style repeatedly lately. Could you please not do that? It's destructive of everything we're trying for here. You've posted substantive, curious comments in the past, which is great; if you'd stick to that in the future, we'd be grateful.
On HN idea the idea is to post out of curiosity and intellectual interest. If one article doesn't engage your curiosity, perhaps another will. Annoyances are best left where you encountered them, rather than hauled into the HN threads.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: it unfortunately looks like you've been posting in the flamewar style repeatedly lately. Could you please not do that? It's destructive of everything we're trying for here. You've posted substantive, curious comments in the past, which is great; if you'd stick to that in the future, we'd be grateful.
Middle-brow dismissal. It is often mentioned in the guidelines here that we should respond to the best interpretation of a post, rather than the worst.
I understand it is not post of the year, but a bit of reading between the lines needs to be done. What is this person trying to tell us? Rather than rushing to find flaws (and perceived flaws) as quickly as possible.
I understand it is not post of the year, but a bit of reading between the lines needs to be done. What is this person trying to tell us? Rather than rushing to find flaws (and perceived flaws) as quickly as possible.
The best interpretation of this post is in its warnings against digital submersion, but when it veers into cultural critique it itself is being very middlebrow and dismissive ("just listen to classical music! Modern music sucks!")
There is a good post in here about how externalizing negative emotion to the internet is indeed addictive behavior, an emotional crutch. Unfortunately this one ain't it. Not to mention it's hardly breaking new ground with this thesis- pre-cancellation Louis C.K. arrived at the same conclusion much more concisely nearly a decade ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbYScltf1c
There is a good post in here about how externalizing negative emotion to the internet is indeed addictive behavior, an emotional crutch. Unfortunately this one ain't it. Not to mention it's hardly breaking new ground with this thesis- pre-cancellation Louis C.K. arrived at the same conclusion much more concisely nearly a decade ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbYScltf1c
nihil sub sole novum, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nihil_sub_sole_novum
[deleted]
You do realize that lots of popular old music was written by all races?
Stop trying to see racism everywhere where where there is none, it'll do wonders for your blood pressure.
Stop trying to see racism everywhere where where there is none, it'll do wonders for your blood pressure.
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar, and especially not on generic ideological flamewar tangents: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor....
I know the GP contained a provocation, but that's no reason to single it out, pour fuel on it, and light it on fire. When you do that, you seriously damage this place.
The intended spirit of HN is curiosity (specifically intellectual curiosity), and that implies a completely different way of behaving: overlooking provocations and focusing on something else that's interesting. Please do that instead.
Flamewars, especially on classic flamewar topics, have nothing interesting in them because they're so tediously repetitive, and of course inevitably turn nasty as well (perhaps as a way of making them less boring [1]). So they do multiple kinds of damage here. That's not cool.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
I know the GP contained a provocation, but that's no reason to single it out, pour fuel on it, and light it on fire. When you do that, you seriously damage this place.
The intended spirit of HN is curiosity (specifically intellectual curiosity), and that implies a completely different way of behaving: overlooking provocations and focusing on something else that's interesting. Please do that instead.
Flamewars, especially on classic flamewar topics, have nothing interesting in them because they're so tediously repetitive, and of course inevitably turn nasty as well (perhaps as a way of making them less boring [1]). So they do multiple kinds of damage here. That's not cool.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
I agree with everything you said, but on the flip side, I do not see provocations like the GP getting flagged, which causes the exact same decay of the community that you are trying to avoid. So in the absence of moderation on those pushing his angle, I'm not sure what we the users are left to do other than push back?
EDIT: Actually, I think this is where HN's lack of a universal downvote button is a weakness. Had that been an option, I'd have simply downvoted his provocation and moved on.
EDIT: Actually, I think this is where HN's lack of a universal downvote button is a weakness. Had that been an option, I'd have simply downvoted his provocation and moved on.
It doesn't cause the exact same decay because the original comment was about lots of things, whereas the response was just about the flamebait. The original comment was also about the article, whereas the response was a meta leap into flames of poison. That's a noticeable decay rate.
That said, the GP comment was also a bad post for HN and I've posted a scolding here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27373460.
That said, the GP comment was also a bad post for HN and I've posted a scolding here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27373460.
Preface: I know you act in good faith.
I don't think it's fair to let one person call people racist for being snooty about classical music, but lecture the person who finds that offensive and inappropriate on its own.
I don't think it's fair to let one person call people racist for being snooty about classical music, but lecture the person who finds that offensive and inappropriate on its own.
It's not possible for moderation to be perfectly consistent. For one thing we don't come close to seeing all the posts, and we can't even read the ones we do see particularly closely. There's just far too much content.
I've taken a closer look and agree that the originating comment was also bad, and have posted a reply up there now.
I've taken a closer look and agree that the originating comment was also bad, and have posted a reply up there now.
I mean, you're not wrong, but you're also pretty damn far from the truth. Any way you slice it, the music industry of yore was affected by the same latent racism that plagued everything, and it's no surprise that white musicians account for a disproportionate amount of music published before the civil rights movement.
Bancakes(3)
Nat King Cole, Duke Ellington and Chuck Berry among others made old popular music. I'm not seeing any of their names here. The author restricts it to just "classical music".
Omission is not restriction. Specifically the author is directing the reader to instrumentals, so none of those distractingly awesome folks would apply.
Even recent music history is steeped in racism. Its not imagining racism to notice that some peoples views and tastes 'just happen' to only include white people.
Racism is everywhere if you look hard enough. The trick is to not actively look for it, else you'll become permanently disillusioned with the human race. We are imperfect beings, full of faults.
we are imperfect! ignoring systemic racism and personal bias does not seem to be the way forward though.
"Imagining racism" is pretty much exactly what I would call the way you are judging other people's tastes in music.
Why people like what they like is complicated. Often it's connected with what the people around them listened to. There is also research suggesting that aesthetic preferences can be tied to certain personality traits (which themselves are somewhat heritable).
To suggest that one might prefer music by white people is the result of conscious animus towards non-whites is reductionist in the extreme, and provides essentially no useful insight.
And even if that preference is rooted in racism, is what someone prefers to listen to in the privacy of their own home really something that should be a collective concern? I really doubt it.
Regardless of the motive, calling someone's tastes is music "racist" is probably the least effective way to get them to try out other kinds of music.
Why people like what they like is complicated. Often it's connected with what the people around them listened to. There is also research suggesting that aesthetic preferences can be tied to certain personality traits (which themselves are somewhat heritable).
To suggest that one might prefer music by white people is the result of conscious animus towards non-whites is reductionist in the extreme, and provides essentially no useful insight.
And even if that preference is rooted in racism, is what someone prefers to listen to in the privacy of their own home really something that should be a collective concern? I really doubt it.
Regardless of the motive, calling someone's tastes is music "racist" is probably the least effective way to get them to try out other kinds of music.
I think you are seeing racism where sometimes there isn't any. I like music when I hear it and I like it. It happens than most of what I like is made by white people? Is it racism? No, since I don't judge music on the skin color or race or ethnicity of the creator. I also don't think that the music I listen to is "better" than the music other people listen to, we just happen to have different tastes.
i think it is very interesting how some people are taking a statement that could (and does) mostly refer to broad and historical trends seen in individual practices and taking it as a statement about themselves as individuals.
if producers don't produce music of non-white people does that induce a racist bias? if educators don't include music of non-white people does that induce a racist bias? it was really not that long ago that other cultures were disregarded as uncivilized and unworthy of inclusion and in fact in need of destruction.
it does not require any active malice on your part for us to be living in a society that is the product of active and generational racism, and you might want to question why you think music is somehow exempt from this.
if producers don't produce music of non-white people does that induce a racist bias? if educators don't include music of non-white people does that induce a racist bias? it was really not that long ago that other cultures were disregarded as uncivilized and unworthy of inclusion and in fact in need of destruction.
it does not require any active malice on your part for us to be living in a society that is the product of active and generational racism, and you might want to question why you think music is somehow exempt from this.
I don't think everything is the result of "active and generational racism". I live in a country from western europe, and it's hard to find asian food outside of specialized store. Is this because of racism? No, it's mostly because most people don't really eat asian food. People that do eat asian food have special places that cater to them because that's how markets works.
The same is true for music. People listen to pretty diverse things, and considering the success of rap music here (especially our own's country rap), it's hard to call that "active and generational racism" when it's one of the if not the most successful genre inside our country. Most young people listen to rap music and it's seen by older people as a bit weird/worse not because of racism, but because that's how old people see young people's music (The same thing happened with rock, and is still happening with metal. No racism here considering how white metal is.)
Producers do produce music of non-white people, non-white people are currently more popular than white people in music. I can't really speak about musical education since I didn't study it after high school, and before that we only had some bits, but I remember clearly that we talked about blues, jazz and their influence on modern music.
Racism exists, systemic racism exists, personal biaises exists, I'm not denying any of it. But personal preferences also do exists, and respecting them is important. Of course it's not easy to take that into account, because you could use "personal preferences" as an argument to only hire people like you because you "work better with them". But that's public/professional life. What I do in my private life is up to me. I'm not posting racist things, I'm not saying the music I listen to is better. I just support the artists I like and most of them happen to be white. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I listen to and support more transgender people than the majority of the population. Does that means that they are transphobic? Probably not. They may be, but not because of what they listen to.
The same is true for music. People listen to pretty diverse things, and considering the success of rap music here (especially our own's country rap), it's hard to call that "active and generational racism" when it's one of the if not the most successful genre inside our country. Most young people listen to rap music and it's seen by older people as a bit weird/worse not because of racism, but because that's how old people see young people's music (The same thing happened with rock, and is still happening with metal. No racism here considering how white metal is.)
Producers do produce music of non-white people, non-white people are currently more popular than white people in music. I can't really speak about musical education since I didn't study it after high school, and before that we only had some bits, but I remember clearly that we talked about blues, jazz and their influence on modern music.
Racism exists, systemic racism exists, personal biaises exists, I'm not denying any of it. But personal preferences also do exists, and respecting them is important. Of course it's not easy to take that into account, because you could use "personal preferences" as an argument to only hire people like you because you "work better with them". But that's public/professional life. What I do in my private life is up to me. I'm not posting racist things, I'm not saying the music I listen to is better. I just support the artists I like and most of them happen to be white. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I listen to and support more transgender people than the majority of the population. Does that means that they are transphobic? Probably not. They may be, but not because of what they listen to.
I think this is that white fragility thing I've heard about? You're just immediately on the attack, and sort of intentionally going for really bad examples. Did anyone suggest not being able to get asian food locally was racism?
Further, I can't speak for your country, but in mine explicitly racist policies have been the norm in living memory. You might look up 'red lining' and start there.
Further, I can't speak for your country, but in mine explicitly racist policies have been the norm in living memory. You might look up 'red lining' and start there.
See: Music Theory and White Supremacy by Adam Neely[0]
[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr3quGh7pJA
The TL;DR for people who will be immediately triggered by the title and not bother to view is that Western music theory was intentionally designed around white supremacist ideals. It is exclusionary of the ideas and contributions of non-European cultures, and purposely so, as it deems them inferior.
[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr3quGh7pJA
The TL;DR for people who will be immediately triggered by the title and not bother to view is that Western music theory was intentionally designed around white supremacist ideals. It is exclusionary of the ideas and contributions of non-European cultures, and purposely so, as it deems them inferior.
I haven't finished this video yet, but its thesis so far seems rather absurd. It mentions a variety of music styles produced heavily[0] by white people (country, rock, EDM) which are not well suited to analysis by music theory, but then goes on to claim that music theory is about promoting "whiteness". This is a rather large hole, one I'm doubtful will be closed.
[0] if not exclusively.
[0] if not exclusively.
None of those genres are produced exclusively by white people, and two of them are direct descendants of African American music.
I assume you've finished the video by now, so I look forward to reading your informed opinion of it.
I assume you've finished the video by now, so I look forward to reading your informed opinion of it.
[deleted]
[deleted]
I exercise for my blood pressure (you might've caught that in the comment you were responding to), but thanks for the suggestion!
He specifically says classical music is the only acceptable kind, and the vast majority of the history of classical music was devoid of non-white people.
You should read the things you're responding to a little better - it'll do wonders for your comprehension.
He specifically says classical music is the only acceptable kind, and the vast majority of the history of classical music was devoid of non-white people.
You should read the things you're responding to a little better - it'll do wonders for your comprehension.
Because non-white people do not have classical music? I agree with the parent, you see racism where it doesn't exist. Why would your mind go to only "white" classical music?
PS I'm Iranian-Armenian; both have rich "classical" music history. I have myself enjoyed Celtic, Chinese and Japanese folk music. Music and rhythm is so ingrained in us that I don't need to do research to know all other nations had music in all eras too.
PS I'm Iranian-Armenian; both have rich "classical" music history. I have myself enjoyed Celtic, Chinese and Japanese folk music. Music and rhythm is so ingrained in us that I don't need to do research to know all other nations had music in all eras too.
[deleted]
[deleted]
> Why would your mind go to only "white" classical music?
Because the literal definition of "Classical Music" is Western music from the period of 1750 to 1820. The "Classical Period". [1] It is by definition music from old white dudes from Europe.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_music
Because the literal definition of "Classical Music" is Western music from the period of 1750 to 1820. The "Classical Period". [1] It is by definition music from old white dudes from Europe.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_music
It's not an unreasonable assumption given the website's graphics all focus on Western European classical art, it's even in the hyperlink. How often do such people mean classical music of non-European genres when they refer to classical?
The blogger uses Big-C Classical Big-M Music, which almost always means European classical music, pre-1900 [0]. You won't find many non-white composers in that particular group.
Capitalization matters, it creates a proper name out of something whether we agree on that name's appropriateness or not (Classical Music being so narrowly defined could be considered a misnomer, as you've pointed out there's a lot more classical music out there).
[0] I couldn't remember when I initially wrote this when the Classical Period ended, it ended earlier in the 1800s than I realized, by the common definition apparently 1820. The start was 1730 (using the earliest time people use to be generous) so "Classical Music" defines a period of less than one century of, specifically, European music.
Capitalization matters, it creates a proper name out of something whether we agree on that name's appropriateness or not (Classical Music being so narrowly defined could be considered a misnomer, as you've pointed out there's a lot more classical music out there).
[0] I couldn't remember when I initially wrote this when the Classical Period ended, it ended earlier in the 1800s than I realized, by the common definition apparently 1820. The start was 1730 (using the earliest time people use to be generous) so "Classical Music" defines a period of less than one century of, specifically, European music.
Classical music doesn't need a big C or M. Simply the lack of additional qualification in "classical music" informs us that it's the historic western practice. Other classical musics are identified as such, e.g. "Indian classical music". Or else a context is established where that qualifier is understood, and then "classical music" refers to "Indian classical music".
I notice you don't decry the lack of female representation in classical music. Is that because you're sexist?
[deleted]
There isn't a lack of female representation in classical music. There were fewer composers or performers before modern times, but hardly unknown.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_composers_by_bi...
https://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/page/1900
https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/latest/great-women-...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_composers_by_bi...
https://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/page/1900
https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/latest/great-women-...
One can also find lists of prominent non-white composers:
https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/black-composers-who...
https://adaptistration.com/2018/06/04/the-composer-diversity...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_composers_of_African_d...
https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/black-composers-who...
https://adaptistration.com/2018/06/04/the-composer-diversity...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_composers_of_African_d...
the vast majority of the history of classical music was devoid of non-white people.
But it's a disingenuous (and sadly all-too-common) leap to conclude they're racist. People like different things. Get over it.
But it's a disingenuous (and sadly all-too-common) leap to conclude they're racist. People like different things. Get over it.
Amen
The point is that you directly suggest that to hold classical music in high regard could be a signal of racism.
So you just said to every person who prefers classical music, "Hey, I think you could be a racist because I correlate a fondness for classical with racism."
So you just said to every person who prefers classical music, "Hey, I think you could be a racist because I correlate a fondness for classical with racism."
No.
Perfect argument.
Care to elaborate as to your reasoning?
Care to elaborate as to your reasoning?
I don't think that was an argument, I think it was an answer to the command in the title.
No.
"If you want to let music inspire you and enjoy its real beauty, I have few very simple rules: Classical Music and no “skipping”. Then I will trust my appetite."
I do like sitting down and actually focusing on an album, but suggesting only that only classical music is worthy of appreciation is absurd. There is an amazing variety of wonderful modern music in a multitude of genres.