Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal(homelandsecuritynewswire.com)
homelandsecuritynewswire.com
Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal
http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/dr20210729-israel-tries-to-limit-fallout-from-the-pegasus-spyware-scandal
309 comments
> provide a way for these tinpot dictators to cement their power.
That and also have backdoors into their clients' intelligence gathering. Knowing who is a good potential enemy of a state is always handy.
That and also have backdoors into their clients' intelligence gathering. Knowing who is a good potential enemy of a state is always handy.
Some of the "incidentally collected" intelligence may be more valuable to Israeli intelligence than it is to Morocco, say, a Macron text with his opinion on the JCPA, or what he knows about a mysterious explosion at an Iranian nuclear facility. They have plausible deniability in that a client state performed the targeting, with a "private company" executing, and the are shocked to learn of this spying and "need to get to the bottom of it".
Having a hot mic on a world leader 24/7, and being able to blame someone else for it is invaluable.
Having a hot mic on a world leader 24/7, and being able to blame someone else for it is invaluable.
Well from an Israeli point of view how is this wrong then? Maintaining a good relationship with Saudi Arabia is a game changer for Israel.
Is the current world any different from Skyrim or Game of Thrones? Do you think it should be? Real, not facetious questions I'd be curious to discuss.
Not sure what you're asking.
I think from the dissident's point of view it's a tragedy. From Israel's point of view it's business and maintaining good relationships with people who can become an enemy in a heartbeat.
How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? That's also not always about money but about diplomacy.
> How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions?
It's not. It's equally despicable.
It's not. It's equally despicable.
It's factually not equally despicable. I don't remember reading about some U.S/French company selling arms to Saudi Arabia as a major news story. Definitely not on Hacker News.
I can't speak to HN (although it seems to me that spy tools are more in line with HN areas of interest than arms sales), but if you haven't noticed that US arms sales to Saudi Arabia (and other nations) were major news stories, then I can't help you. Because they absolutely have been, and likely will continue to be.
Even if that weren't true, I don't see how the amount of press coverage something gets speaks to whether or not that thing is despicable.
Even if that weren't true, I don't see how the amount of press coverage something gets speaks to whether or not that thing is despicable.
I think it should be different. I don't think people should expect Israel to start because it is one of the few countries that doesn't just sell arms for profit, but for specific strategic interests.
If you want Israel to start for some reason, I think it is fair that you need to call them Gods chosen people at the minimum, because your heightened expectations would warrant that.
If you want Israel to start for some reason, I think it is fair that you need to call them Gods chosen people at the minimum, because your heightened expectations would warrant that.
It isn’t wrong or undesirable from their point of view. That’s my point.
Israel had such a relationship with the Saudis for a while, it just wasn't public.
It could become wrong if they lose the support of the west. Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel. It's a multi dimensional issue and playing nice with their neighbors may be advantageous if nobody knows (publicly). But if they do and there are bigger more important relationships (namely US) start to be put at risk, it could be the wrong move.
> Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel
That could happen regardless of what Israel does. I mean if the U.S or EU decides that Israel is a colonial entity like Apartheid SA, that's not going to be because some Israeli cyber startup selling a tool. The hard left doesn't really care what Israel does now, the very idea of Israel of Israel existing is a cross between colonialism and white privilege to them. But in the mean time Israel gain actual strategic relations with countries like Saudi Arabia that mean a lot.
That could happen regardless of what Israel does. I mean if the U.S or EU decides that Israel is a colonial entity like Apartheid SA, that's not going to be because some Israeli cyber startup selling a tool. The hard left doesn't really care what Israel does now, the very idea of Israel of Israel existing is a cross between colonialism and white privilege to them. But in the mean time Israel gain actual strategic relations with countries like Saudi Arabia that mean a lot.
No chance, AIPAC, BICOM and various lobby groups ensure politicians are in the pockets of the Israel lobby. This isn't to say other countries don't have corrupt lobbying practices. But the unilateral multibillion dollar IDF funding raies questions.
Could it be that some politicians actually agree Israel should exist?
A while back, I'd agree with you but I'm starting to think this is a generational issue and that the younger generations are internalizing the truth about Israel. We could see a massive shift once they get control of the country en mass. I think it has already started and is moving faster than I would have predicted even a year ago.
There is also the chance of the US losing a lot of its power through various means (ie. Dollar losing reserve currency status, US military being tested by China and losing etc.). If this happens, they may be forced to cut Israel loose. Israel has no other solid allies and so they will flounder for a while but eventually sink because once the US is out others will be free to begin economic sanctions and the country cannot survive that indefinitely.
In both of these scenarios, the lobby groups become less effective and possibly get defeated. Long term we are moving towards a world where lobbies become less powerful. Its going to take decades though.
There is also the chance of the US losing a lot of its power through various means (ie. Dollar losing reserve currency status, US military being tested by China and losing etc.). If this happens, they may be forced to cut Israel loose. Israel has no other solid allies and so they will flounder for a while but eventually sink because once the US is out others will be free to begin economic sanctions and the country cannot survive that indefinitely.
In both of these scenarios, the lobby groups become less effective and possibly get defeated. Long term we are moving towards a world where lobbies become less powerful. Its going to take decades though.
At least you're honest about wanting to dismantle Israel, could be nice if we got rid of the 1967 border/settlements bullshit. The "occupation" doesn't mean crap to the hard left, it's all occupation.
I just wish the US never got involved in this mess. It was a massive mistake that led to numerous downstream negative consequences for the US and its people.
The "hard left" sees Israel for what it always has been: A settler/colonial state. Israel will continue to push propaganda to bury this but the truth can never be erased.
The "hard left" sees Israel for what it always has been: A settler/colonial state. Israel will continue to push propaganda to bury this but the truth can never be erased.
> Its going to take decades though.
Who knows, maybe it never happens. If climate change brings about tens of millions of new refugees I don't think people will have that much time/energy to the so called Palestinian refugees anymore. They will have to get along like everyone else.
Who knows, maybe it never happens. If climate change brings about tens of millions of new refugees I don't think people will have that much time/energy to the so called Palestinian refugees anymore. They will have to get along like everyone else.
It will be interesting to see how climate change affects the area.
There is a possibility of a significant economic decline in the US caused by climate change such that the US will not be able to help Israel anymore just due to lack of resources.
Most of the countries in the region will be swallowed by the desert and that may include Israel. Even though Israel is at the forefront of mitigation technology, it does not seem like it is enough from what I have seen.
There is a possibility of a significant economic decline in the US caused by climate change such that the US will not be able to help Israel anymore just due to lack of resources.
Most of the countries in the region will be swallowed by the desert and that may include Israel. Even though Israel is at the forefront of mitigation technology, it does not seem like it is enough from what I have seen.
Yeah, fun speculation....we will see what happens.
> Sure, some people might be annoyed they were spied on
I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population.
Furthermore, Israel hasn't had the support it has today. Especially at the time multiple countries tried to attack it. At the time it basically got its weapons for defense on the black market. So scrutinizing questionable defense contracts is a weak accusation, especially since all other countries do sell weapons to regimes as well.
What you are really criticizing is the success. Making that clear might not really helpful, but is factual.
I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population.
Furthermore, Israel hasn't had the support it has today. Especially at the time multiple countries tried to attack it. At the time it basically got its weapons for defense on the black market. So scrutinizing questionable defense contracts is a weak accusation, especially since all other countries do sell weapons to regimes as well.
What you are really criticizing is the success. Making that clear might not really helpful, but is factual.
> I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population.
And all of them should be called out, every time. "But those guys get away with it" isn't a defense.
And all of them should be called out, every time. "But those guys get away with it" isn't a defense.
That is a valid argument against unethical behavior but again, this isn't valid for the reality of arms sales. It would be better if that weren't the case, but it isn't. And the place to start is always your own government because here you are responsible and have the ability to enact change. Your government will try to move you to point fingers at other country. Exactly like you do here.
What the Russians do isn't an argument...
What the Russians do isn't an argument...
I can and do call out my own government. I can criticize other governments at the same time. I don't need to limit myself to caring about one issue.
What I find funny is this:
"Our clients only use the software against terrorists and criminals, so it can't be used the wrong way"
"We made sure that it doesn't work against US phone numbers".
That is straight out of "A Few Good Men":
If Colonel Jessup ordered the soldier should not be touched, and soldiers follow orders, why was the victim scheduled for a plane ride off the base?
"Our clients only use the software against terrorists and criminals, so it can't be used the wrong way"
"We made sure that it doesn't work against US phone numbers".
That is straight out of "A Few Good Men":
If Colonel Jessup ordered the soldier should not be touched, and soldiers follow orders, why was the victim scheduled for a plane ride off the base?
According to an old product manual[1], NSO would have most likely have been aware of whom was targeted and the content being retrieved because NSO would generally run the anonymising nodes on the Internet and seemingly insist on installing and maintaining the servers hosted at the client site where data eventually ends up. There is a note saying that customers could set this up themselves but I suspect the countries involved wouldn't have the expertise to do so. Thus to a country such as France which has been targeted, they would have to assume it is actually Israel spying on France via proxy countries. The proxy countries in return got access to spying tools they'd never be able to build themselves to spy on dissidents and rival politicians.
Per [2], US and UK officials were also targeted. Perhaps this was less commonplace though because the scheme had a greater chance of being figured out (example means: [3]) and would then give the US and UK access to the target lists of Israel and proxy countries, and the exploits used. Perhaps this is the reason 'soft targets' (countries without big ICT spying budgets) topped the target list?
[1] https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/4599753/NSO-Pegasus.p...
[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/07/20/heads-of-sta...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upstream_collection
Per [2], US and UK officials were also targeted. Perhaps this was less commonplace though because the scheme had a greater chance of being figured out (example means: [3]) and would then give the US and UK access to the target lists of Israel and proxy countries, and the exploits used. Perhaps this is the reason 'soft targets' (countries without big ICT spying budgets) topped the target list?
[1] https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/4599753/NSO-Pegasus.p...
[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/07/20/heads-of-sta...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upstream_collection
"NSO would generally run the anonymising nodes on the Internet and seemingly insist on installing and maintaining the servers hosted at the client site where data eventually ends up. There is a note saying that customers could set this up themselves but I suspect the countries involved wouldn't have the expertise to do so. Thus to a country such as France which has been targeted, they would have to assume it is actually Israel spying on France via proxy countries. "
I would be shocked if NSO wasn't feeding intel its 'clients' acquired spying on their targets to Israel.
I would be shocked if NSO wasn't feeding intel its 'clients' acquired spying on their targets to Israel.
"Our clients only use the software against terrorists and criminals" => So this means that French PM Macron is a terrorist or criminal - for somebody who built this software...
tasogare(3)
Circular arguments are so convenient. And apparently "terrorists" and "criminals" (by whose definition?) have no rights whatsoever, so whatever you do to them cannot be wrong.
The problem is it kind of works. Israeli propagandists describe anyone who opposes Israeli war crimes or anyone that critiques their continued colonization of Palestinians as terrorist sympathizers. Guess what seemingly everyone in media/politics avoid?
"Terrorist sympathizer" is a milder slander than the one they really like to use for critics of Israel's actions, "antisemitic".
Aren't Arabs also "semitic people" [1]? (Since Ishmael and Abraham are also descendants of Shem...). In this case "antisemitic" would also mean "against Arabs"...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people
You are right, there are Jews who aren't Semites an there are Semites who aren't Jews. The term “anti-Semitism” came up near the end of the 19th century [1] when it was all the rage to find scientific-sounding words for whatever you do or sell. “Anti-Semitism” sells better than plain “hatred of Jews”. I for one wouldn't give racists the satisfaction of using their own choice for cloaking their prejudice and stupidity in pseudo-science but the term seems to have taken hold everywhere.
[1]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/anti-Semitism
[1]: https://www.britannica.com/topic/anti-Semitism
Languages are Semitic, people are not. These categories are outdated to the extreme.
Sometimes words don't mean exactly what their etymology suggests. So I'm sorry but, objecting to using the world 'antisemitism' to refer to "anti-Jewish racism" comes across as trying to deny Jews the ability to describe their own oppression
Hanlon's razor applies: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Many or most people incorrectly assume that anti-Semitism has something to do with Semitic people because the words (but not their meanings) are similar.
Hard disagree. One of these (anti-Semitism) is far more common than the other (references to Arabs as "Semitic"). It's like saying that you've only heard of "negro" as a color. In a culture and a place (the United States) where that is absurd, assumptions of malintent and bad faith are a better heuristic.
I don't mean to imply that the word makes any sense in this context. However, if one chooses to complain about Israeli abuses of Palestinians, it is a fact that one will be called "antisemitic".
Isn't "Caucasian" a specific ethnicity of the region between eastern Europe and western Asia?
The point you bring up is an example of "fallacy of equivocation".
Yes, words are polysemic. In this case, 'anti-semetic' is seen as "anti-jewish". That's one sense of 'anti-semetic'. You can also add another sense of that word: "against speakers of Semetic language or people". This sense is not used when people use 'anti-semetic'.
In Europe, there has been centuries of discussion about jews: it was called "the Jewish question". Anyway, this anti-semitism started as a product of religious rivalry (which religion is True? Christianity or Judaism). Then extra features were added, etc.
Yes, words are polysemic. In this case, 'anti-semetic' is seen as "anti-jewish". That's one sense of 'anti-semetic'. You can also add another sense of that word: "against speakers of Semetic language or people". This sense is not used when people use 'anti-semetic'.
In Europe, there has been centuries of discussion about jews: it was called "the Jewish question". Anyway, this anti-semitism started as a product of religious rivalry (which religion is True? Christianity or Judaism). Then extra features were added, etc.
Yes, they are also a Semitic group, but "Anti-Semitic" has come to refer to hatred specifically against Israelis.
Maybe because that hatred is more widespread than hatred against all Semitic people...?
Maybe because that hatred is more widespread than hatred against all Semitic people...?
Actually, "anti-semitic" is against "jewish" person (as a religion) and not against "israeli" citizen (as a nationality). The last one is called "anti-sionist"...
The fact that Israel is a nation "home for jews" doesn't help, as some people think that every critic against Israel politic is the mark of "anti-semitism" even if religion has nothing to do with. Sometimes it might be the indicator of "anti-sionism" and sometimes... just the indicator of political difference! After all, you can criticize any country for its politic without critizing the counrty "per se"
Moreover, a lot of people in Israel are not jewish but muslims.
The fact that Israel is a nation "home for jews" doesn't help, as some people think that every critic against Israel politic is the mark of "anti-semitism" even if religion has nothing to do with. Sometimes it might be the indicator of "anti-sionism" and sometimes... just the indicator of political difference! After all, you can criticize any country for its politic without critizing the counrty "per se"
Moreover, a lot of people in Israel are not jewish but muslims.
seoaeu(2)
> Guess what seemingly everyone in media/politics avoid?
Who avoids it? Israel is written about, almost always negatively, on a daily basis on all major newspapers.
Care to say which media outlet avoids "criticizing" Israel other than a few unimportant right wing outlets?
Who avoids it? Israel is written about, almost always negatively, on a daily basis on all major newspapers.
Care to say which media outlet avoids "criticizing" Israel other than a few unimportant right wing outlets?
I have the same observations as you from Norway. From what I hear from those who have been here longer than me it has been like this since the 60ies or 70ies so it is not a new thing either.
GP:
> > Israel is written about, almost always negatively, on a daily basis on all major newspapers
You could say that about the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) as well or the dictators in Saudi Arabia. Sometimes there's a well founded reason for criticizing the state in a country.
That does not mean the ones who criticize the Israeli state or the CCP, would think that everyone in Israel or China are bad people.
P:
> same observations as you
There's a cognitive bias to notice negative sounding things written about one's own "soccer team", but not notice positive or neutral things so much.
Let's say there's 1 article about settlers taking land, 1 about the Israeli state selling suicide bomber drones to Azerbaijan, and 15 articles about vaccination, tech companies, the Pride Parade, other things -- maybe you wouldn't remember the 15 latter, only keep the 1 + 1 former in mind.
(This is as expected b.t.w. thinking about evolution and hunter gatherer tribes long ago)
> > Israel is written about, almost always negatively, on a daily basis on all major newspapers
You could say that about the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) as well or the dictators in Saudi Arabia. Sometimes there's a well founded reason for criticizing the state in a country.
That does not mean the ones who criticize the Israeli state or the CCP, would think that everyone in Israel or China are bad people.
P:
> same observations as you
There's a cognitive bias to notice negative sounding things written about one's own "soccer team", but not notice positive or neutral things so much.
Let's say there's 1 article about settlers taking land, 1 about the Israeli state selling suicide bomber drones to Azerbaijan, and 15 articles about vaccination, tech companies, the Pride Parade, other things -- maybe you wouldn't remember the 15 latter, only keep the 1 + 1 former in mind.
(This is as expected b.t.w. thinking about evolution and hunter gatherer tribes long ago)
> Let's say there's 2 articles about settlers taking land, and 10 articles about startups and tech companies in Israe
I'm talking about almost every news outlet writing "Israel bombed Gaza" and only one being nuanced enough to mention "Israel bombed Gaza after n hundred rockets crossed the border during the last 24 hours."
Settlers taking land is also interesting. It took quite a while before someone (and none of the big ones) cared to mention that the latest dispute was over Jewish owned land that was stolen by Jordan during their short management of east Jerusalem and sold to Arabs.
I'm talking about almost every news outlet writing "Israel bombed Gaza" and only one being nuanced enough to mention "Israel bombed Gaza after n hundred rockets crossed the border during the last 24 hours."
Settlers taking land is also interesting. It took quite a while before someone (and none of the big ones) cared to mention that the latest dispute was over Jewish owned land that was stolen by Jordan during their short management of east Jerusalem and sold to Arabs.
> I'm talking about almost every news outlet writing "Israel bombed Gaza" and only one being nuanced enough to mention "Israel bombed Gaza after n hundred rockets crossed the border during the last 24 hours."
It goes both ways. I haven't seen the headline "Palestinian militias shell Israeli targets in response to Israel's attempts to ethnically cleanse illegally occupied Palestinian territory" either.
> It took quite a while before someone (and none of the big ones) cared to mention that the latest dispute was over Jewish owned land that was stolen by Jordan during their short management of east Jerusalem and sold to Arabs.
Has anyone of them mentioned the massive irony in Israel returning lands stolen from Jews while at the same time keeping all the land it itself stole from Palestinians?
It goes both ways. I haven't seen the headline "Palestinian militias shell Israeli targets in response to Israel's attempts to ethnically cleanse illegally occupied Palestinian territory" either.
> It took quite a while before someone (and none of the big ones) cared to mention that the latest dispute was over Jewish owned land that was stolen by Jordan during their short management of east Jerusalem and sold to Arabs.
Has anyone of them mentioned the massive irony in Israel returning lands stolen from Jews while at the same time keeping all the land it itself stole from Palestinians?
> Palestinian militias launched rockets at Israel in response to its attempts to ethnically cleanse illegally occupied Palestinian territory
What ? That was what Western media wrote over and over again last few months.
What ? That was what Western media wrote over and over again last few months.
Where were you were media wrote this?
Preferrably with links. I'm stubborn but prefer to become right over believing I was always right (but actually being wrong the whole time.)
Preferrably with links. I'm stubborn but prefer to become right over believing I was always right (but actually being wrong the whole time.)
> Has anyone of them mentioned the massive irony in Israel returning lands stolen from Jews while at the same time keeping all the land it itself stole from Palestinians?
To the degree that land has been stolen recently except by Jordan it was by UN and the British I think.
Israeli land was either bought, traded, given by UN, won in defensive wars (and most of that have been given back in return for peace).
You could say that the land that was gained in defensive wars is stolen even if it was a defensive war, but I think that becomes unreasonable - especially since Israel has proven that they are willing to give back such land for a real, lasting peace agreement, and also since some of the land represents a massive advantage for a hostile neighbor.
To the degree that land has been stolen recently except by Jordan it was by UN and the British I think.
Israeli land was either bought, traded, given by UN, won in defensive wars (and most of that have been given back in return for peace).
You could say that the land that was gained in defensive wars is stolen even if it was a defensive war, but I think that becomes unreasonable - especially since Israel has proven that they are willing to give back such land for a real, lasting peace agreement, and also since some of the land represents a massive advantage for a hostile neighbor.
During the 1948 Palestine war, Jewish troops ethnically cleansed the territory that became the State of Israel of Arab Palestinians. The land and property owned by those Arab Palestinians was confiscated by the state and handed out to Jewish immigrants. Israel does not believe that any of the land or property it confiscated should be returned to its former Arab Palestinian owners.
At the same time, property owned by Jews in the West Bank was confiscated by Jordanian authorities and given to Arab Palestinian refugees. In 1970, three years after Israel had taken the West Bank from Jordan, it enacted a law which stated that all property confiscated by Jordan should be returned to their original Jewish owners.
This is what I meant by "massive irony" but maybe it is just hypocrisy or racism.
At the same time, property owned by Jews in the West Bank was confiscated by Jordanian authorities and given to Arab Palestinian refugees. In 1970, three years after Israel had taken the West Bank from Jordan, it enacted a law which stated that all property confiscated by Jordan should be returned to their original Jewish owners.
This is what I meant by "massive irony" but maybe it is just hypocrisy or racism.
> During the 1948 Palestine war, Jewish troops ethnically cleansed the territory that became the State of Israel of Arab Palestinians. The land and property owned by those Arab Palestinians was confiscated by the state and handed out to Jewish immigrants.
And this is why there is so many Arabs living happily in Israel today. /s
Quite on the contrary I've read that Israel asked Arabs to stay in Israel during the 1948 war - for selfish reasons - but still.
Surrounding Arab countries asked Arabs in Israel to leave temporarily to make "shoveling the Jews into the ocean" easier. Those who left "temporarily" are the ancestors of those who live in refugee camps today. Those who stayed are the ancestors of Arabs living good lives in Israel today. More or less.
edit: Confiscating the homes of those who left to make it simpler to wipe you into the sea is a bit different than bulk killing people (genocide) and taking their homes. endedit.
Also remember that far more Jews were forced out of surrounding countries and into Israel than Arabs out of Israel.
If Arabs from what is today Israel should get their homes back I suppose Jews should get their homes and shops back in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq etc?
edit: Or can we finally accept that it was botched by UN and actively sabotaged by neigbouring countries? That the sad fate of the Arabs from Israel is less the fault of Israelis and that the ones to blame are neighbor Arab states and the UN? end edit
If any of this is news to anyone just think how much more biased news organizations hide from you.
Everyone should start reading.
PS: I'm not saying Israelis are innocent. I'm saying that media has massively misrepresented the situation for a few decades, selectively presented only the things that makes Israel look bad.
Many of them are true, but as shown above the full story is a bit more nuanced...
And this is why there is so many Arabs living happily in Israel today. /s
Quite on the contrary I've read that Israel asked Arabs to stay in Israel during the 1948 war - for selfish reasons - but still.
Surrounding Arab countries asked Arabs in Israel to leave temporarily to make "shoveling the Jews into the ocean" easier. Those who left "temporarily" are the ancestors of those who live in refugee camps today. Those who stayed are the ancestors of Arabs living good lives in Israel today. More or less.
edit: Confiscating the homes of those who left to make it simpler to wipe you into the sea is a bit different than bulk killing people (genocide) and taking their homes. endedit.
Also remember that far more Jews were forced out of surrounding countries and into Israel than Arabs out of Israel.
If Arabs from what is today Israel should get their homes back I suppose Jews should get their homes and shops back in Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq etc?
edit: Or can we finally accept that it was botched by UN and actively sabotaged by neigbouring countries? That the sad fate of the Arabs from Israel is less the fault of Israelis and that the ones to blame are neighbor Arab states and the UN? end edit
If any of this is news to anyone just think how much more biased news organizations hide from you.
Everyone should start reading.
PS: I'm not saying Israelis are innocent. I'm saying that media has massively misrepresented the situation for a few decades, selectively presented only the things that makes Israel look bad.
Many of them are true, but as shown above the full story is a bit more nuanced...
>>"Settlers taking land is also interesting. It took quite a while before someone (and none of the big ones) cared to mention that the latest dispute was over Jewish owned land that was stolen by Jordan during their short management of east Jerusalem and sold to Arabs. "
I think I remember reading about that. Are those the properties acquired by an extremist Jewish organization, from the original Jewish owners, in order to be able to legally evict the non-Jewish people living there?
I think I remember reading about that. Are those the properties acquired by an extremist Jewish organization, from the original Jewish owners, in order to be able to legally evict the non-Jewish people living there?
That might be yet another twist to this story.
I'm not that into it. I probably only appear knowledgeable because I have read a bit beyond the headlines and because I am as biased as many others.
I'm not that into it. I probably only appear knowledgeable because I have read a bit beyond the headlines and because I am as biased as many others.
> Guess what seemingly everyone in media/politics avoid?
We discussed the other day as well. We clearly live in different realities which might explain why we couldn't come to an agreement.
For the reference here is what my reality looks like:
Around here there are exactly two major outlets that I am aware of that is pro Israel: "MIFF - Med Israel For Fred" (With Israel For Peace) and the conservative newspaper document.no.
The rest of known media outlets are more or less deeply anti-Israeli:
Public broadcaster NRK is probably the biggest hatemongerer (publishing "funny" skits about "jewish swines", telling that Israeli soldiers "shoots at everything that moves", having a radio host saying on air (yes, on air) that he hope the vaccine doesn't work on them and they die from COVID etc.)
On the other side you have vg.no who will always end their pieces about Israelis bombing something with a sentence or two to balance it somewhat: "The Israeli attack happened after n hundred rockets had been fired over the border the last 24 hours."
The rest falls somewhere in the middle: not calling Israelis Jewish Swines like NRK but simultaneously only reporting whenever Israel strikes back, completely ignoring why.
We discussed the other day as well. We clearly live in different realities which might explain why we couldn't come to an agreement.
For the reference here is what my reality looks like:
Around here there are exactly two major outlets that I am aware of that is pro Israel: "MIFF - Med Israel For Fred" (With Israel For Peace) and the conservative newspaper document.no.
The rest of known media outlets are more or less deeply anti-Israeli:
Public broadcaster NRK is probably the biggest hatemongerer (publishing "funny" skits about "jewish swines", telling that Israeli soldiers "shoots at everything that moves", having a radio host saying on air (yes, on air) that he hope the vaccine doesn't work on them and they die from COVID etc.)
On the other side you have vg.no who will always end their pieces about Israelis bombing something with a sentence or two to balance it somewhat: "The Israeli attack happened after n hundred rockets had been fired over the border the last 24 hours."
The rest falls somewhere in the middle: not calling Israelis Jewish Swines like NRK but simultaneously only reporting whenever Israel strikes back, completely ignoring why.
seoaeu(1)
> Guess what seemingly everyone in media/politics avoid?
Would you be referring to the most-discussed conflict of all time? It's always funny to me when I hear on Reddit that "nobody talks" about Israeli war crimes. We're talking about it right now. Go look at Wikipedia's page of active conflicts - how many of them do you hear about the war crimes being committed? Coverage of Israeli war crimes is disproportionately *large* compared to other conflicts, not disproportionately small.
Would you be referring to the most-discussed conflict of all time? It's always funny to me when I hear on Reddit that "nobody talks" about Israeli war crimes. We're talking about it right now. Go look at Wikipedia's page of active conflicts - how many of them do you hear about the war crimes being committed? Coverage of Israeli war crimes is disproportionately *large* compared to other conflicts, not disproportionately small.
I'd just like to remind everyone that America's Founding Fathers would be labeled terrorists by the British Crown were the word in common use back then.
terrorists really don't have any right except those afforded to prisoners. They threw those out when they decided to become terrorists.
People don't decide to become terrorists. They are labeled that way.
southerntofu(2)
[deleted]
Sure.
The really convenient thing about "terrorists and criminals" is that the definition of who counts as those is incredibly flexible.
The really convenient thing about "terrorists and criminals" is that the definition of who counts as those is incredibly flexible.
[deleted]
Genuinely kind of surprising they thought such a transparent lie would still work.
We can't handle the truth.
Isn't it a bit weird that all of the criticism is pointed at the state in which a private company made this technology and none of the criticism is pointed at the actual states that bought and used it?
The article makes a pretty good reason why it's aimed at the state. The potentially close relationship between private companies and the state and how intelligence is/was likely shared between them. If that's true, NSO Group is acting as an agent of the state - thus Israel would be spying on France and caught doing it. Thus the anger directed at the state level, as well as the company and governments. A lot of the government you would want to be upset at, well, they don't give a shit and that's why people don't like them.
Yet those reasons are circumstantial and unverified claims, whereas we know that Morocco spied on France. If, and that is an if, Israel received intelligence as a result, Morocco is still the country that crossed that line. The framing makes no sense. Why is a third party, Israel, limiting fallout instead of Morocco?
If it's clearly not a big deal, can you explain why the Israeli defense minister is in France?
An Israeli company made a weapon, assembled it, loaded it and acted as a spotter for Morocco, who's the party that selected the french targets and then pulled the trigger. Even if the intelligence wasn't shared, the Israeli government should be held responsible for its arms exports.
An Israeli company made a weapon, assembled it, loaded it and acted as a spotter for Morocco, who's the party that selected the french targets and then pulled the trigger. Even if the intelligence wasn't shared, the Israeli government should be held responsible for its arms exports.
Because Israel is generally thought of as an ally to the west.
Export of cyberweapon is regulated by the state.
As if Israel would be the only country selling weapons to the Saudis and they even have a tactical excuse aside from making money. It is not an excuse and they perhaps shouldn't, but it is the reality of weapon deals today.
There’s plenty of criticism for those regimes at baseline. The goal is to reduce the amount of surveillance. It is cheaper to convince the NSO group to raise its customer standards or to provide more direct oversight than to convince each regime to stop these activities. Obviously we should try both, but I suspect pressure on NSO will reduce more harm in the short run because they have more to lose.
Not weird at all, given the recent uptick in anti-israel sentiments in the left, and uptick of antisemitism worldwide
I get it.
Calling out chinese, russian and north korean hacking = fighting cyber terrorism.
Calling out israeli hacking = antisemitism
Calling out chinese, russian and north korean hacking = fighting cyber terrorism.
Calling out israeli hacking = antisemitism
seigando(1)
you're missing the point, and putting words in my mouth. Israeli hacking criticism is not anti-semitism, and thats not what I meant. But the thousands of articles coming out every week criticizing Israel are largely motivated to destroy the countries image. The antisemitism is related and undeniable as a side to all of this.
Please stop adding to flamewars, and don't post like this to HN in the future, regardless of which side you're on or how right you are or feel you are.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I am Israeli, and when I see blatant misinformation being brigaded in the tech community that I am a part of, about my country, I feel the need to respond. It is actually stressful to respond, but I feel the need to because I don't think the moderation on these Israeli threads is enough. And regarding the guidelines the posters who are targeting my comments have no problems being rude, patronizing, and breaking guidelines.
I totally get that, I understand, and I feel for your situation. But you still have to follow the rules here. Other people breaking the rules doesn't entitle you to break them. They aren't allowed to break the rules, either, and we try our hardest to be as even-handed about this as we possibly can.
There are a lot of cognitive biases at work in these situations. It always feels like the other person started it; it always feels like they did worse; it always feels like one is being "brigaded" and so on. Mostly the others are feeling the same things. Everyone has good reasons for what they're fighting for, even if those good reasons aren't expressed, and even when the arguments they're making are wrong or distorted or one-sided. Since everyone is having these similar feelings and perceptions, we all have to be super careful about moderating (in all senses of the word "moderate"), or we're guaranteed a downward spiral. That wouldn't do any of us good, regardless of our views on countries or anything else.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
There are a lot of cognitive biases at work in these situations. It always feels like the other person started it; it always feels like they did worse; it always feels like one is being "brigaded" and so on. Mostly the others are feeling the same things. Everyone has good reasons for what they're fighting for, even if those good reasons aren't expressed, and even when the arguments they're making are wrong or distorted or one-sided. Since everyone is having these similar feelings and perceptions, we all have to be super careful about moderating (in all senses of the word "moderate"), or we're guaranteed a downward spiral. That wouldn't do any of us good, regardless of our views on countries or anything else.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
You are right. I am going to not even click the links with the "Israel" in them to save myself anguish. Positive vibes only
Thank you for the kind reply. I know it's not easy! Believe me I know :)
[deleted]
This spyware can install onto any iPhone or Android phone and spy on everything you do silently. It's a game changer for governments and their ability to intrude on our lives. It really vindicates everything Snowden has said on the topic.
"It really vindicates everything Snowden has said on the topic."
Did any of his statements really need vindication though? Have we not known about this forever? (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON) I suspect the real problem is, and always has been, our perceived inability to change any of it.
Did any of his statements really need vindication though? Have we not known about this forever? (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON) I suspect the real problem is, and always has been, our perceived inability to change any of it.
ECHELON is way worse then Pegasus though, cause ECHELON / PRISM / whatever you don't even need spyware on your phone or to be targeted to be scooped up in their net.
maybe. these are different problems existing in different scopes.
a modern echelon dragnet would get an absolute mass of encrypted data so your fear will depend on whether or not you believe governments can break that crypto, and if so, at what scale.
pegasus on the other hand is highly targeted, infects silently and completely takes over your device–the camera, the microphone, keyboard, etc… encryption will not help. nothing can save you.
echelon was dragnet, pegasus is targeted. both extremely dangerous yet i still find something about pegasus to be infinitely more frightening.
we’ve already seen very high profile journalists murdered from pegasus and i suspect we’re going to uncover more as it’s dug into further.
a modern echelon dragnet would get an absolute mass of encrypted data so your fear will depend on whether or not you believe governments can break that crypto, and if so, at what scale.
pegasus on the other hand is highly targeted, infects silently and completely takes over your device–the camera, the microphone, keyboard, etc… encryption will not help. nothing can save you.
echelon was dragnet, pegasus is targeted. both extremely dangerous yet i still find something about pegasus to be infinitely more frightening.
we’ve already seen very high profile journalists murdered from pegasus and i suspect we’re going to uncover more as it’s dug into further.
Mass interception over the wire affects more people, but it's easier to defend against using cryptography.
India could have been outraged at the news two years ago but we had to reach this point.
I do firmly believe US government, Apple and Google have the patriotic duty to stop NSO and close these zero-click, zero-day vulnerabilities. Are they seriously allowing foreign governments and other unscrupulous parties to infiltrate and spy whomever they wish, just because it is also convenient for them?
What makes this technically possible? I.e, isn't one of Apple's main arguments for needing an app store so that they can prevent this kind of thing on a hardware and software level?
This story is kind of funny: "intelligence" is a game where everybody cheat and everybody say that he doesn't. That's the basic (and maybe only) rule of the game... So when a cheater is caught, the main consequence is that... he has to find another way to cheat!!!
For a long time, Israel is known to be cheating with cyber... and I wouldn't be surprised that France is using NSO services too! Same goes for Palantir...
But it has to be non-public! Showing it publicly is a way to force everybody to find other ways... but won't change the world nor the game. And it's not about "terrorist"... just about "intelligence" and "national security"
For a long time, Israel is known to be cheating with cyber... and I wouldn't be surprised that France is using NSO services too! Same goes for Palantir...
But it has to be non-public! Showing it publicly is a way to force everybody to find other ways... but won't change the world nor the game. And it's not about "terrorist"... just about "intelligence" and "national security"
> but won't change the world nor the game
I don't think that was ever the point. In a game of cat-and-mouse, you don't skip on a chance to spray the cat.
I don't think that was ever the point. In a game of cat-and-mouse, you don't skip on a chance to spray the cat.
I do wonder whether FBI will hunt those reverse and software engineers behind those tools
I do wonder how many of them are in this comment chain or previous big thread about Pegasus
I do wonder how many of them are in this comment chain or previous big thread about Pegasus
If anything, the “hunting down” would be for the purpose of hiring them.
It's an Israeli company, how exactly is the FBI going to hunt down their engineers?
the same way they hunt Russian hackers
on vacations in cool places :)
src:
https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+hacker+caught+on+vac...
1
>At noon on June 28, 2012, Vladimir Drinkman, targeted as one of America’s most wanted cybercriminals, and his wife hustled into a cab pulling away from their Amsterdam hotel. They had just been tipped off that the police were on to them, but an unmarked police car blocked their getaway. The Russian was handcuffed and arrested on charges of helping to mastermind what has been called the largest criminal hacking scheme ever prosecuted in the United States.
_____________
2
>The United States has carried out a largely unheralded roundup of big Russian hackers over the last year, grabbing them on vacation in Barcelona, Prague and Greece,
______________
or great talk by Adam Haertle, but unfortunely in Polish with English subtitles avaliable
The day of cybercriminal, or how hard it is to remain an uncaught
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPIIILlIYXE
on vacations in cool places :)
src:
https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+hacker+caught+on+vac...
1
>At noon on June 28, 2012, Vladimir Drinkman, targeted as one of America’s most wanted cybercriminals, and his wife hustled into a cab pulling away from their Amsterdam hotel. They had just been tipped off that the police were on to them, but an unmarked police car blocked their getaway. The Russian was handcuffed and arrested on charges of helping to mastermind what has been called the largest criminal hacking scheme ever prosecuted in the United States.
_____________
2
>The United States has carried out a largely unheralded roundup of big Russian hackers over the last year, grabbing them on vacation in Barcelona, Prague and Greece,
______________
or great talk by Adam Haertle, but unfortunely in Polish with English subtitles avaliable
The day of cybercriminal, or how hard it is to remain an uncaught
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPIIILlIYXE
The difference is that US is strong and powerful and can arrest its enemies across the world, but Europe is weak and pathetic and cannot even defend itself.
Naftali Bennett‘s first real test.
Would he actually know or have a way to find out why Macron secrets are being traded to Pegasus clients, or even reign in the spyware industry at all?
Would the fragile coalition be able to handle this PM doing anything about it, or is this so far outside of their priority list that it doesn't matter and there is room for real reform?
Would he actually know or have a way to find out why Macron secrets are being traded to Pegasus clients, or even reign in the spyware industry at all?
Would the fragile coalition be able to handle this PM doing anything about it, or is this so far outside of their priority list that it doesn't matter and there is room for real reform?
> Would he actually know or have a way to find out why Macron secrets are being traded to Pegasus clients, or even reign in the spyware industry at all?
I don’t think this would pass muster as an excuse if Israeli industry had been selling missiles to Morocco for use against France.
Curious to see if it ends up being treated the same.
I don’t think this would pass muster as an excuse if Israeli industry had been selling missiles to Morocco for use against France.
Curious to see if it ends up being treated the same.
France and Morocco have a very close relationship, this quite equivalent since spying isn’t treated in the same way as direct hostilities.
If it was the EU would’ve fallen by now as I’ve lost a count of how many times states were caught spying on one another.
If it was the EU would’ve fallen by now as I’ve lost a count of how many times states were caught spying on one another.
Right, the main benefit/issue is that spyware and exploits are not seen as “munitions” anywhere, and as such, escape regulation or meaningful export controls.
I think you’re right, but I think this will change
I don't find anything extraordinary in the fact that foreign governments spy on Macron. In fact I would expect France to do the same to other countries, and I'm sure they do.
These things make headlines when they are found by the public but they really are business as usual among governments.
If anything, this only reflects badly on the French services themselves if the President's phone (I assume, or hope, private phone as they are supposed to have custom, secure phones for official business) got owned.
These things make headlines when they are found by the public but they really are business as usual among governments.
If anything, this only reflects badly on the French services themselves if the President's phone (I assume, or hope, private phone as they are supposed to have custom, secure phones for official business) got owned.
They have an easy out: blame it on Bibi and promise change.
It's also a fair out.
The genie might be out of the bottle here for them. A lot of investigative journalism now coming out (1) which shows that Pegasus is really just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Israeli spyware.
(1) https://www.mintpressnews.com/meet-toka-the-most-dangerous-i...
(1) https://www.mintpressnews.com/meet-toka-the-most-dangerous-i...
I understand how messy the context surrounding this next point is but it’s worth considering.
From what Ive been seeing over the past couple weeks, the article is probably correct in that pegasus is just the beginning of what we’re going to find out regarding how deep the rabbit hole goes with israeli malware firms, however mint press has a very long history of what may be questionable funding and there have been quite a lot of organizations who have done some pretty well researched investigating that implicates mint press in some pretty nasty propaganda.
Again, I understand how complicated and messy this kind of thing can be, but if you at all value accuracy in your analysis, it would absolutely be worth looking at some of their history regarding incredibly questionable funding and very strange propaganda for certain regimes.
From what Ive been seeing over the past couple weeks, the article is probably correct in that pegasus is just the beginning of what we’re going to find out regarding how deep the rabbit hole goes with israeli malware firms, however mint press has a very long history of what may be questionable funding and there have been quite a lot of organizations who have done some pretty well researched investigating that implicates mint press in some pretty nasty propaganda.
Again, I understand how complicated and messy this kind of thing can be, but if you at all value accuracy in your analysis, it would absolutely be worth looking at some of their history regarding incredibly questionable funding and very strange propaganda for certain regimes.
As others have mentioned, the source you're citing is at best highly questionable. The amount of leaps the article makes is just out of this world, mostly that this Israeli company has Israelis involved, and that Israelis who have experience with mathematics and computer work also serve their mandatory military service in an intelligence unit of the military rather than as foot soldiers and that an Israeli company has Israeli investors.
Israel is a tiny country the size of New Jersey, the fact that there will be overlap of people and connections between them is always the case- there's nothing nefarious about it.
Anyway, looking at the author's twitter gives one a good look into what this looks like if taken outside the context of Israel:
https://twitter.com/_whitneywebb?lang=en
She's an anti-vaxxer talking about how the "ruling class" of using COVID to gain control over the population, about hidden FBI assets, and a ton about how the anti-Defmation League, a group that collects data on antisemitism is really a massive spy network.
If it weren't so scary that people believe in it, it might be funny.
There's no reason to put any more credence in her
Israel is a tiny country the size of New Jersey, the fact that there will be overlap of people and connections between them is always the case- there's nothing nefarious about it.
Anyway, looking at the author's twitter gives one a good look into what this looks like if taken outside the context of Israel:
https://twitter.com/_whitneywebb?lang=en
She's an anti-vaxxer talking about how the "ruling class" of using COVID to gain control over the population, about hidden FBI assets, and a ton about how the anti-Defmation League, a group that collects data on antisemitism is really a massive spy network.
If it weren't so scary that people believe in it, it might be funny.
There's no reason to put any more credence in her
noduerme(4)
So Pegasus is a non-story right, since she's been reporting on that for years now?
That's a very questionable source. With such an overtly anti-Israel position, that's probably best taken with a large pinch of salt.
I'm not familiar with the source, but can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance? I see nothing wrong with condemning the actions of the Israeli government, nor questioning why one of the prominent exports of the Israeli technology sector is surveillance.
I keep being contacted several times a year by established Israeli companies to add spyware into my projects. A couple of weeks ago I was offered $5000 as a sign up bonus by Bright Data (formerly Luminati), before that a growth specialist from Similarweb contacted me to gather intelligence about how to aquire Firefox for Android extensions, it was so slimy I've reported the latter to Mozilla employees.
I can't come up with a single country with such a disproportionate amount of shady companies specialized in online tracking and surveillance compared to the small population size.
I keep being contacted several times a year by established Israeli companies to add spyware into my projects. A couple of weeks ago I was offered $5000 as a sign up bonus by Bright Data (formerly Luminati), before that a growth specialist from Similarweb contacted me to gather intelligence about how to aquire Firefox for Android extensions, it was so slimy I've reported the latter to Mozilla employees.
I can't come up with a single country with such a disproportionate amount of shady companies specialized in online tracking and surveillance compared to the small population size.
noduerme(4)
> I'm not familiar with the source, but can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance?
No one is saying you should be pro-Israel in this instance. But an anti-anything stance should be reasonable and based on facts.
The fact that a country with a very large high tech sector is home to some questionable companies doesn't say much about the country as a whole.
>I can't come up with a single country with such a disproportionate amount of shady companies specialized in online tracking and surveillance compared to the small population size.
That's probably because you're unaware of the size of the Israeli high tech sector, which is completely disproportional to the country's size. From Wikipedia [0]:
> It [Israel] has the second-largest number of startup companies in the world after the United States, and the third-largest number of NASDAQ-listed companies after the U.S. and China. American companies such as Intel, Microsoft, and Apple built their first overseas research and development facilities in Israel, and other high-tech multi-national corporations, such as IBM, Google, HP, Cisco Systems, Facebook and Motorola have opened R&D centres in the country
Also relevant - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Wadi, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital_in_Israel
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel
No one is saying you should be pro-Israel in this instance. But an anti-anything stance should be reasonable and based on facts.
The fact that a country with a very large high tech sector is home to some questionable companies doesn't say much about the country as a whole.
>I can't come up with a single country with such a disproportionate amount of shady companies specialized in online tracking and surveillance compared to the small population size.
That's probably because you're unaware of the size of the Israeli high tech sector, which is completely disproportional to the country's size. From Wikipedia [0]:
> It [Israel] has the second-largest number of startup companies in the world after the United States, and the third-largest number of NASDAQ-listed companies after the U.S. and China. American companies such as Intel, Microsoft, and Apple built their first overseas research and development facilities in Israel, and other high-tech multi-national corporations, such as IBM, Google, HP, Cisco Systems, Facebook and Motorola have opened R&D centres in the country
Also relevant - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Wadi, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venture_capital_in_Israel
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel
As a EU citizen I don't criticise Israel for their weapon exports to much as that would be heavily hypocritical and it would also neglect the fact that EU officials actually want to implement said surveillance towards its citizens. That is not a fault of Israel, even if you want it to be.
Surely it is a fault of Israel – and also the EU? Just because our lot do it too, that doesn't stop it being a problem.
I would feel pretty stupid to criticise Israel when it comes out that my own government ordered their software. They supposedly didn't buy it, but it was on the table for negotiation.
Why? Were you party to that decision of your government?
I live in a democracy so I am partially responsible for anything my government does. Even and especially when it does something I don't like.
Yes if you voted for that government, otherwise no.
I'd argue you still have responsibility for your government's actions, regardless if you voted for them. Your responsibility as a citizen is to hold your government accountable, whether that's by voting, writing letters, talking, protesting, or (in the extreme case) civil disobedience or rebellion.
Unfortunately, the more important it is to hold your government to account, the harder it is. I, personally, don't have the strength to do that, for all I talk of it.
Unfortunately, the more important it is to hold your government to account, the harder it is. I, personally, don't have the strength to do that, for all I talk of it.
Yes oversight and influence on the government is responsibility of citizens. It does not mean that citizen is responsible for government's actions (as in I am member of a group of people to blame for their government's actions). These two responsibilities are two very different things.
[deleted]
I didn't realize it was even that bad. Wow.
I cannot imagine how someone could possibly be pro-Israel in the specific context of cybercrime and cyberwarfare. They are literally enabling regimes to blackmail and murder innocent, good people.
Also, please provide actual counterarguments.
Also, please provide actual counterarguments.
Is it Israel, the state, that is doing that?
Yes. Every sale is approved by at least to ministers.
That's interesting. Do you have a source?
Sure, there is many: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/20...
"The Israeli Defense Ministry must approve any license to a government that wants to buy it, according to previous NSO statements."
"The Israeli Defense Ministry must approve any license to a government that wants to buy it, according to previous NSO statements."
Should we take the sometimes-overtly, other-times-covertly pro-Israel position of much of the western media with a similar pinch of salt?
Opinions on Israel-Palestine seem to depend on generation.
Boomer journalists are pro-Israel and millennial journalists seem to be pro-Palestinian.
In the recent conflict NYT and WaPost were pro-Palestinian unlike the conflict in 2014 when they were neutral. In 2008/2009 they were openly pro-Israel.
Boomer journalists are pro-Israel and millennial journalists seem to be pro-Palestinian.
In the recent conflict NYT and WaPost were pro-Palestinian unlike the conflict in 2014 when they were neutral. In 2008/2009 they were openly pro-Israel.
Do you actually have counter-arguments to her findings here?
[deleted]
In light of the Raven reveals from 2019 [0], I don't see what makes NSO stand apart and get so much bad rep (besides the obvious fact that any spyware is bad). In Raven, ex-NSA contractors not only supplied the spyware but actually helped operate it on-site, at least in the UAE. My guess would be that NSO et al compete with US-based players on price, not effectiveness.
So the angle I find fascinating is the amount of pile-on on NSO/Israel this campaign effectively generates. Anti Israeli sentiment has become the watering hole where wokes and alts of all stripes can get their fuzzies and co-exist (at least for a while :/)
[0] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-spyi....
Slightly OT, but a week or so ago Instagram decided that I'm in Israel for the purpose of targeted advertising, and their Covid Info Center.
I've no idea why, and no idea how to fix it.
It makes skipping ads easy (anything in Hebrew), but it's mildly disconcerting not knowing what's behind it.
I've no idea why, and no idea how to fix it.
It makes skipping ads easy (anything in Hebrew), but it's mildly disconcerting not knowing what's behind it.
Watergate seems tame these days...
If they had any sense they would shutdown this company selling to hostile foreign dictators to track, imprison, and kill journalists and politicians.
[deleted]
We put hackers in jail for building spyware! even those that don't use it themselves to hack a target. Why is it legal for NSO to sell Pegasus?
Do the timings of this increased scrutiny have anything to do with the current conflict with Palestine?
You started a vile flamewar with this comment. Obviously, that's mostly the responsibility of the commenters flaming each other and crossing into religious and other forms of nastiness, but still—dropping a lit match at a gas station is negligent if not trolling.
As for the commenters downthread: posting personal attacks, religious attacks, nationalistic attacks, and similar kinds of things is utterly against both the letter and the spirit of the rules here, and if you keep it up we will ban you. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the intended spirit of this site to heart. If you can't do that, please don't comment until you can.
As for the commenters downthread: posting personal attacks, religious attacks, nationalistic attacks, and similar kinds of things is utterly against both the letter and the spirit of the rules here, and if you keep it up we will ban you. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the intended spirit of this site to heart. If you can't do that, please don't comment until you can.
I think there's always been scrutiny. It's been clear for a long time that Israel has very sophisticated IT security/intelligence capabilities and that in addition to using them for it's direct national security and military goals, these capabilities have been commercialised.
The ugly truth is that offering these capabilities to whoever will pay for them is a good business to be in. In addition to getting paid for it, Israel also gets access to all the intelligence gathered by their services for these clients. It's a win-win for them.
The only way to stop them doing this would be to make the costs of these activities greater than the benefits. I'm not sure how that can be done.
The ugly truth is that offering these capabilities to whoever will pay for them is a good business to be in. In addition to getting paid for it, Israel also gets access to all the intelligence gathered by their services for these clients. It's a win-win for them.
The only way to stop them doing this would be to make the costs of these activities greater than the benefits. I'm not sure how that can be done.
I know that this is probably an innocent comment on your part, but the wording of "with Palestine" implies that there are two places in a fight, one called Israel, the other called Palestine.
This is a simplified explanation of why this label is not correct.
Palestinians are in fact three distinct groups of people who all self-identify the same way. There are the group of people who are Israeli citizens. They used to identify as Israeli Arabs, but they've recently (in the last five or so years) begun to self identify as Palestinians.
Then there is the group in the West Bank formerly Jordan. This is land that Israel captured in the 1967 war, when there was a unified effort by the neighboring nations to attack/destroy Israel, but Israel won. It returned a majority of the land it captured (more than two thirds), kept some. But Jordan did not allow citizens living in this land the ability to return to Jordan, and they became refugees, being neither Jordanian (according to Jordan) or Israelis (according to Israel).
The situation is similar in Gaza, except there is is Egypt, and is on the other side of the country. The refugees there are former (or descendants of) Egypt.
Both places have had the opportunity to petition the UN to be a recognized country, but they've not done so.
You may ask why these three groups call themselves the same thing. Why "Palestinian"- because for many of them, this unified label also implies in it the idea that Israel should not exist and the land should be reverted back to Palestine, the name that Israel (and Jordan) had before it was split and allocated as Israel.
The PLO, the governing body of the West Bank, would like to see the destruction of Israel and it to be returned to Palestine, but they're also pragmatists and some (many) believe they would accept a two-state solution.
The governing body of Gaza, however, is Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization which is on a religious mission to kill all non-Muslims (and by Muslim they mean a very specific sect/belief system) from the land- no Jews, no Christians, etc. They're very similar in ideology and methodology to ISIS, but ISIS and Hamas don't get along either due to differences in their own philosophies.
Lastly, there are Israeli Arabs, that is fully Israeli citizens who were part of or descendants of the land from when Israel was formed (or who migrated to Israel) have grievances due to the way Arabs are treated in Israel. There are legitimate grievances on their part for sure, and there are a wide variety of solutions- from political reform, new laws about equality, or funding (think US inner-city poverty) to the destruction of Israel, and everything in between.
There are problems with creating a two state solution because there's no land border between the West Bank and Gaza. They're on opposite sides of the country, essentially. It's a bit more complex, but look at it on a map and you'll see the issue. It would be unreasonable for a unified people to have Israel sitting in the middle of its country, or for Israel to give up a huge swath of land and be split into two.
And Israel, under the previous government, allowed 400,000-500,000 people to create settlements in disputed land that was supposed to be kept free of people in an agreement founding the demilitarized zone.
If you're an American, that's basically the population of Washington, DC. Now what the heck do we do with those people?
But my point is there's no single "conflict with Palestine"- there are separate conflicts, each with their own peoples, issues, grievances, etc.
This is a simplified explanation of why this label is not correct.
Palestinians are in fact three distinct groups of people who all self-identify the same way. There are the group of people who are Israeli citizens. They used to identify as Israeli Arabs, but they've recently (in the last five or so years) begun to self identify as Palestinians.
Then there is the group in the West Bank formerly Jordan. This is land that Israel captured in the 1967 war, when there was a unified effort by the neighboring nations to attack/destroy Israel, but Israel won. It returned a majority of the land it captured (more than two thirds), kept some. But Jordan did not allow citizens living in this land the ability to return to Jordan, and they became refugees, being neither Jordanian (according to Jordan) or Israelis (according to Israel).
The situation is similar in Gaza, except there is is Egypt, and is on the other side of the country. The refugees there are former (or descendants of) Egypt.
Both places have had the opportunity to petition the UN to be a recognized country, but they've not done so.
You may ask why these three groups call themselves the same thing. Why "Palestinian"- because for many of them, this unified label also implies in it the idea that Israel should not exist and the land should be reverted back to Palestine, the name that Israel (and Jordan) had before it was split and allocated as Israel.
The PLO, the governing body of the West Bank, would like to see the destruction of Israel and it to be returned to Palestine, but they're also pragmatists and some (many) believe they would accept a two-state solution.
The governing body of Gaza, however, is Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization which is on a religious mission to kill all non-Muslims (and by Muslim they mean a very specific sect/belief system) from the land- no Jews, no Christians, etc. They're very similar in ideology and methodology to ISIS, but ISIS and Hamas don't get along either due to differences in their own philosophies.
Lastly, there are Israeli Arabs, that is fully Israeli citizens who were part of or descendants of the land from when Israel was formed (or who migrated to Israel) have grievances due to the way Arabs are treated in Israel. There are legitimate grievances on their part for sure, and there are a wide variety of solutions- from political reform, new laws about equality, or funding (think US inner-city poverty) to the destruction of Israel, and everything in between.
There are problems with creating a two state solution because there's no land border between the West Bank and Gaza. They're on opposite sides of the country, essentially. It's a bit more complex, but look at it on a map and you'll see the issue. It would be unreasonable for a unified people to have Israel sitting in the middle of its country, or for Israel to give up a huge swath of land and be split into two.
And Israel, under the previous government, allowed 400,000-500,000 people to create settlements in disputed land that was supposed to be kept free of people in an agreement founding the demilitarized zone.
If you're an American, that's basically the population of Washington, DC. Now what the heck do we do with those people?
But my point is there's no single "conflict with Palestine"- there are separate conflicts, each with their own peoples, issues, grievances, etc.
> Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization
Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan and the United States have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization. Australia, New Zealand, Paraguay and the United Kingdom have designated only its military wing as a terrorist organization. It is not considered a terrorist organization by Brazil, China, Egypt, Iran, Norway, Qatar, Russia, Syria and Turkey. In December 2018, the United Nations General Assembly rejected a U.S. resolution condemning Hamas as a terrorist organization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan and the United States have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization. Australia, New Zealand, Paraguay and the United Kingdom have designated only its military wing as a terrorist organization. It is not considered a terrorist organization by Brazil, China, Egypt, Iran, Norway, Qatar, Russia, Syria and Turkey. In December 2018, the United Nations General Assembly rejected a U.S. resolution condemning Hamas as a terrorist organization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
They are religious extremists who believe that the entire land should be free of anyone whose religious beliefs do not match theirs and they don't mind killing innocent people, including their own people- women, children, etc. to further that goal.
The fact that some countries such as Russia and Turkey won't label them as terrorists doesn't change their beliefs, nor does it change how dangerous they are not only to Israel, but to their own people. They take the "long view" that if they need to sacrifice a few dozen, hundred or thousand of their own people to achieve their goal, even if it takes centuries, they're willing to do that.
It hurts not only Israel, but the people of the Gaza strip as well.
I don't want to split hairs about who calls labels them what. As I said, my explanation is simplified.
The fact that some countries such as Russia and Turkey won't label them as terrorists doesn't change their beliefs, nor does it change how dangerous they are not only to Israel, but to their own people. They take the "long view" that if they need to sacrifice a few dozen, hundred or thousand of their own people to achieve their goal, even if it takes centuries, they're willing to do that.
It hurts not only Israel, but the people of the Gaza strip as well.
I don't want to split hairs about who calls labels them what. As I said, my explanation is simplified.
" they don't mind killing innocent people, including their own people- women, children, etc. to further that goal."
I guess the only difference with the Israeli government is that the Israeli government manages to successfully avoid killing their own citizens.
Let's be real, they're both as bad as each other, just one side has a prettier face.
I guess the only difference with the Israeli government is that the Israeli government manages to successfully avoid killing their own citizens.
Let's be real, they're both as bad as each other, just one side has a prettier face.
noduerme(1)
> They are religious extremists who believe that the entire land should be free of anyone whose religious beliefs do not match theirs
False.
False.
Its true, and have you READ the Hamas Charter?
https://fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm
Here are some quotes:
" Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. "Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep." "
Article 27 talks about how the PLO(another terrorist organization) must be rejected because it is secular.
" Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. "Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep." "
Article 27 talks about how the PLO(another terrorist organization) must be rejected because it is secular.
zd123(1)
And who could deny the benevolent intentions of Turkey, Syria, Iran, Egypt, China, Qatar and Russia? (I have no idea what the Norwegians are thinking).
Have you got a citation that Hamas is on a religious mission to "kill all non-muslims".
From what I have read and understood, it's primary focus is to resist the Zionists which repeatedly encroach on Palestinian land.
Imo, making a comparison to ISIS is a tad bit lazy given the historical buildup to the problems in Israel. Just because a bunch of guys have big beards and shout in Arabic doesn't really make them equivalent in their aims.
From what I have read and understood, it's primary focus is to resist the Zionists which repeatedly encroach on Palestinian land.
Imo, making a comparison to ISIS is a tad bit lazy given the historical buildup to the problems in Israel. Just because a bunch of guys have big beards and shout in Arabic doesn't really make them equivalent in their aims.
There are Catholic priests and nuns, and some 1100 Christians in total living in Gaza which as far as I know is controlled by Hamas.
how many jews?
pelorat(2)
> Have you got a citation that Hamas is on a religious mission to "kill all non-muslims".
Read their own literature, read Wikipedia, read any source on Hamas. This isn't a hidden agenda, this is their stated goal.
> it's primary focus is to resist the Zionists which repeatedly encroach on Palestinian land.
I addressed the issue of "Palestinian" in the previous comments. There are extreme Zionists and there are people like me who support the idea of a safe place for Jews even if we don't support the previous Israeli government- the current one is too new to have an opinion on. And we're Zionists too. I want to see peace and equality for all the people.
> Imo, making a comparison to ISIS is a tad bit lazy given the historical buildup to the problems in Israel. Just because a bunch of guys have big beards and shout in Arabic doesn't really make them equivalent in their aims.
It would be lazy if I were doing that, but I wasn't.
I was explaining their ideology, explaining why it's different than the PLO. As for have big beards- Jews have big beards too, and some of the Jews with big beards in my family speak Arabic as their native language, so what's your point?
Read their own literature, read Wikipedia, read any source on Hamas. This isn't a hidden agenda, this is their stated goal.
> it's primary focus is to resist the Zionists which repeatedly encroach on Palestinian land.
I addressed the issue of "Palestinian" in the previous comments. There are extreme Zionists and there are people like me who support the idea of a safe place for Jews even if we don't support the previous Israeli government- the current one is too new to have an opinion on. And we're Zionists too. I want to see peace and equality for all the people.
> Imo, making a comparison to ISIS is a tad bit lazy given the historical buildup to the problems in Israel. Just because a bunch of guys have big beards and shout in Arabic doesn't really make them equivalent in their aims.
It would be lazy if I were doing that, but I wasn't.
I was explaining their ideology, explaining why it's different than the PLO. As for have big beards- Jews have big beards too, and some of the Jews with big beards in my family speak Arabic as their native language, so what's your point?
Please stop adding to flamewars, and don't post like this to HN in the future, regardless of which side you're on or how right you are or feel you are.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
zd123(2)
azth(2)
Good condensation. Aside from that, to the parent, it has nothing to do with the recent hostilities in Gaza and the West Bank. The leak of phone numbers from NSO to the press happened in 2020.
They all fight for one goal, having a nation named palestine, calling them palestine/palestinians makes sense.
The "current" conflict has been going on for over 100 years
This spyware is invaluable for the Israeli government because they have something that repressive Arab regimes want. These regimes can’t be bought with money, because some of them like Saudi Arabia and UAE have plenty of money. Israel needs friends and this is a great way to start and maintain friendships - provide a way for these tinpot dictators to cement their power. Sure, some people might be annoyed they were spied on but the news cycle will move on soon, while Saudi and UAE will remain staunch allies. MBS still loves them because Khashoggi remains dead.
Israel would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn’t been for the meddling kids at Amnesty International.