Why are so many knowledge workers quitting?(newyorker.com)
newyorker.com
Why are so many knowledge workers quitting?
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/office-space/why-are-so-many-knowledge-workers-quitting
132 comments
My case is pretty much the opposite.
Remote work has given me almost two more hours of life a day (that I'd otherwise spend commuting), it made me realize how sleep deprived I used to be, and substantially improved my health - through home cooking, being less stuck to the chair, and having more time for sports.
Additionally, it has greatly improved my career, since the advent of somewhat commonplace remote work means that I have access to jobs in areas where the pay is substantially better (up to 3x my current salary). If I end up quitting it will be either to capitalize on those new opportunities or to set in stone my ability to work remotely.
Remote work has given me almost two more hours of life a day (that I'd otherwise spend commuting), it made me realize how sleep deprived I used to be, and substantially improved my health - through home cooking, being less stuck to the chair, and having more time for sports.
Additionally, it has greatly improved my career, since the advent of somewhat commonplace remote work means that I have access to jobs in areas where the pay is substantially better (up to 3x my current salary). If I end up quitting it will be either to capitalize on those new opportunities or to set in stone my ability to work remotely.
> Remote work has given me almost two more hours of life a day (that I'd otherwise spend commuting)
I get this sentiment, but I want to stress to people who feel this way that long commutes are not a problem with our work culture, they are a problem with our car culture.
Instead of retreating to our homes in the suburbs, people should be demanding more compact cities with expansive public transportation. Instead of losing our "second place", let's fight to get our "third place" back!
I get this sentiment, but I want to stress to people who feel this way that long commutes are not a problem with our work culture, they are a problem with our car culture.
Instead of retreating to our homes in the suburbs, people should be demanding more compact cities with expansive public transportation. Instead of losing our "second place", let's fight to get our "third place" back!
Public transit and compact cities is not the awesome solution people make it to be. (I live in Europe)
Usually the commute time is longer because of trips to the station + waiting for the vehicle to come. Even worse people typically all go to work at the same time and rush hours form. No breathing room. Usually never being able to sit. It is horrible always and even more so during pandemics. Having exclusive seats at the vehicle and preordained vehicles vetted by the company. That works but only large companies can afford this. Also public transit only works in large cities.
Compact cities with houses are good. The cities in Netherlands are a really good way to model every society in the world. Everything in your neighbourhood just a 5 minute bike ride away. Everything else should be done remotely if possible.
Usually the commute time is longer because of trips to the station + waiting for the vehicle to come. Even worse people typically all go to work at the same time and rush hours form. No breathing room. Usually never being able to sit. It is horrible always and even more so during pandemics. Having exclusive seats at the vehicle and preordained vehicles vetted by the company. That works but only large companies can afford this. Also public transit only works in large cities.
Compact cities with houses are good. The cities in Netherlands are a really good way to model every society in the world. Everything in your neighbourhood just a 5 minute bike ride away. Everything else should be done remotely if possible.
Agreed. I live in Hong Kong which has arguably some of the best public transport in the world - which is great until you are out of a service area of the MTR, then it's undersized packed busses mixed with convoluted bus routes - which even without the heavy road traffic leave you feeling exhausted.
Doing the same commute by car has been a significant quality of life improvement - not least because I have a few square feet to myself while I'm in transit!
Doing the same commute by car has been a significant quality of life improvement - not least because I have a few square feet to myself while I'm in transit!
I used to travel with public transport to work. More than happy to not do it for 2 hours a day.
I don't know why 2 hours of public transport is better than 2 hours of commute by car? It's still time wasted.
I don't know why 2 hours of public transport is better than 2 hours of commute by car? It's still time wasted.
Personally I would prefer 2 hours on a train to 2 hours by car, since I can read or reply to emails without focusing on the road.
But the idea of density is that everything is closer together, so transit time is less, and you have more modes of transportation available to you, reducing congestion. In the United States, most people don't have the option of a short commute or to live within walking/biking distance of work even if they wanted to.
But the idea of density is that everything is closer together, so transit time is less, and you have more modes of transportation available to you, reducing congestion. In the United States, most people don't have the option of a short commute or to live within walking/biking distance of work even if they wanted to.
The grass is always greener on the other side. It is quite difficult to read or reply to emails when you literally have to squeeze your body in a subway train.
I moved to Tokyo after vowing never to live in car-dependent hell again. I can say with certainty that the grass is greener on this side, at least when it comes to transportation!
Having control of a car is much better than the hell that is being a public transportation prisoner.
Cities with public transit still have roads, if that's what you prefer. More people on trains means less people on the roads, which is better for everyone. I think people should have free choice over what mode of transport they use, but in America right now the only option is: car.
At my work the people who moved far away to own a bigger house enjoy WFH - they have more space to isolate themselves during the working day, and a long commute they can skip.
I have a short cycle into work which is one of the highlights of my day and hate WFH.
I have a short cycle into work which is one of the highlights of my day and hate WFH.
It's probably easier to arrange remote work than to wait for our cities to be rebuilt.
Wouldn't public transit still take up quite a bit of time if you don't live near your office?
For one, everything would be closer together, which helps reduce transit time. Advocates of density and public transit also usually advocate for mixed-use zoning, which would make it much easier to live near within walking or biking distance of where you work. So with good city planning, you could drastically reduce the time spent commuting.
Even with a commute, riding a bus or train is much less stressful than commuting by car. You can read a book, reply to emails, etc..
Even with a commute, riding a bus or train is much less stressful than commuting by car. You can read a book, reply to emails, etc..
This is probably another symptom of differing psychologies and preferences, but “density” and “everything closer together” sounds like a description of hell.
I’ve been to NYC, SF, Seattle… all that closeness (I called it cramped and stifling) was not something I would want to experience long term.
I’ve been to NYC, SF, Seattle… all that closeness (I called it cramped and stifling) was not something I would want to experience long term.
There is something in between NYC and an American-style suburb. I encourage you to take a look at Not Just Bikes [1,2]:
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnKIVX968PQ
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWsGBRdK2N0 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnKIVX968PQ
Like the Seattle area, or the SF bay? Those aren't any better, frankly. Too many people packed into small spaces. Even the precisely manicured green spaces get packed full of people, ironically looking to escape.
Seattle / SF are both still very car-centric and have pretty bad public transit. Unfortunately I don't know of any places in the United States that are representative of what I'm talking about, outside some small pockets which don't span more than a few blocks. Largely due to zoning restrictions.
Not Just Bikes has some good video of places in the Netherlands and elsewhere that come close to meeting the ideal. Take a look too at maps of small/medium towns in Germany or Japan compared to USA.
Not Just Bikes has some good video of places in the Netherlands and elsewhere that come close to meeting the ideal. Take a look too at maps of small/medium towns in Germany or Japan compared to USA.
Cable cars, trams, busses, trains, taxis – if SF and Seattle have poor public transit, I've never seen a place which does then. And I say this as someone who lived in and extensively used said public transit in both cities.
Let's hypothesize about a utopian city where a person's housing is, at a maximum, a quarter hour walk/bike from their job at Apple. The moment that person switches jobs to Google, however, they have to choose between moving or losing every benefit the utopian city layout has provided. Worse, their new commute would be explicitly working against the design of this hypothetical city.
Workforces should not be (and are not with suburbs) tightly integrated into where they work. This is something important to consider. You can't have the same density of employers that you have today if you're also packing in the other services (residential, markets, drug stores, laundrymats, etc).
Let's hypothesize about a utopian city where a person's housing is, at a maximum, a quarter hour walk/bike from their job at Apple. The moment that person switches jobs to Google, however, they have to choose between moving or losing every benefit the utopian city layout has provided. Worse, their new commute would be explicitly working against the design of this hypothetical city.
Workforces should not be (and are not with suburbs) tightly integrated into where they work. This is something important to consider. You can't have the same density of employers that you have today if you're also packing in the other services (residential, markets, drug stores, laundrymats, etc).
I actually live in Europe, so cars aren't my problem, as I already use public transportation. My commute is caused by the stupidly high rents in any area close to the center of my city - which hopefully is another problem that can be partially solved by remote work, since it could ease the demand and lower the prices a bit when fewer big earners need to live crammed in the same area.
More compact cities mean less living space.
Not necessarily. Urban/suburban spaces today are dominated by parking lots and four-to-six-lane roads. Eliminating those would make cities more compact without sacrificing size. With everything closer together, you wouldn't need the parking spaces in the first place!
Of course, I also don't think it would be a bad thing to stop building McMansions. Many consider Tokyo to be an extreme example of density, but even there it is quite common to find 80-160sqm detached houses. At half of Tokyo's density, people wouldn't even need to give up their yards.
Of course, I also don't think it would be a bad thing to stop building McMansions. Many consider Tokyo to be an extreme example of density, but even there it is quite common to find 80-160sqm detached houses. At half of Tokyo's density, people wouldn't even need to give up their yards.
People still commute an hour or more (using a lot of public transport) in large-ish European cities because there simply isn't enough housing in the cities (and through some kind of bacterial growth law, there will never be enough in the city) and what is there is of course extremely expensive. Naturally many people live in suburbian-ish things.
This.
I live and work in Paris proper, which is a very dense city. Transit sucks, my commute is around 45 minutes each way. Bonus points for when I have to take it in rush hour, with people pressed together and no air conditioning. Extra bonus points for the habitual breakdowns, meaning even more people per train.
Also, high density with "historic city" means very small apartments and very high prices. I really don't know how much better this is compared to US-style suburbia. Oh, we don't have clean air either, all the highways and city roads are congested, too.
I live and work in Paris proper, which is a very dense city. Transit sucks, my commute is around 45 minutes each way. Bonus points for when I have to take it in rush hour, with people pressed together and no air conditioning. Extra bonus points for the habitual breakdowns, meaning even more people per train.
Also, high density with "historic city" means very small apartments and very high prices. I really don't know how much better this is compared to US-style suburbia. Oh, we don't have clean air either, all the highways and city roads are congested, too.
This is just poor planning, no? I never said it's not possible to design cities badly. Look to Tokyo for an example of density and transit working really well.
True, but I think that more importantly it shows that it's not "easy", since cities that work well seem to be in the minority.
Plus, I'd say European cities, in particular, aren't really "designed", seeing how they have to contend with historic centers they can't touch, etc.
But I think that, more importantly, we should try to avoid having to be all in the same spot if it's not necessary.
Yes, there are some advantages to scale, and some things are easier / cheaper to do when you have 1M people in the same space as opposed to spread far and wide. But this also produces other issues, such as stressed people because of all the noise (not just cars, but neighbors, etc.)
Plus, I'd say European cities, in particular, aren't really "designed", seeing how they have to contend with historic centers they can't touch, etc.
But I think that, more importantly, we should try to avoid having to be all in the same spot if it's not necessary.
Yes, there are some advantages to scale, and some things are easier / cheaper to do when you have 1M people in the same space as opposed to spread far and wide. But this also produces other issues, such as stressed people because of all the noise (not just cars, but neighbors, etc.)
I want to stress that cities are the problem.
Instead of being forced to trek into cities, people should be demanding to be able to work from any other place.
Instead of being forced to trek into cities, people should be demanding to be able to work from any other place.
> Remote work has given me almost two more hours of life a day (that I'd otherwise spend commuting)
Only that I now spend most of that extra time for more work & I'm behind 1.5 years on all my podcasts
Only that I now spend most of that extra time for more work & I'm behind 1.5 years on all my podcasts
Those podcasts must not have been all that interesting to begin with if you're not listening to them on your own time.
This is pretty much my take when people tell me how much better commuting is on the bus or train. "You can read a book or listen to podcasts"
Come on, I don't do those things in my free time, I'd much prefer more free time from working remotely than fake "free time" on the bus.
Come on, I don't do those things in my free time, I'd much prefer more free time from working remotely than fake "free time" on the bus.
Personally, I use the time for a little more sleep.
Recently I changed job, now my commute is 15 minutes, 10 kilometers.
At work I don't have to cook for lunch, I have great air conditioning and above all I don't work from the basement, like I did at home during lockdowns.
Same with me dude, I'm getting burnt out just waking up, sleeping, and playing in the same place again and again. Used to have a lot of fun with other people in the office too
That’s not healthy, can attest. You need a space dedicated for work and you need to get outside once in a while. If it’s all mixed up it can go really wrong over time. I hope I’m not overstepping, this is heartfelt advice from someone who did it wrong for too long.
Yeah the thing is my work desk is in front of my bed lol, including my pc for gaming and other stuff. SO it's pretty bad after a while
I had a similar setup and got sleeping problems, anxiety and worse after a while. Also started to eat there. It all mixes up and you slowly lose structure, motivation and confidence. If you have any opportunity to bring in structure into this, preferably through separated spaces, and most importantly through routine/schedule, start now!
Find yourself a co-working space somewhere in town. I live in a rather small town, but even here I found a place with about 20 other people. I started 2 weeks ago. I did more than the previous 6 months. I just cannot work at home.
I felt the same way, I was tired of it all for months, burned out working 14-18 hour days trying to keep up with demand as traffic on the site I work for grew 200% from Covid19 lock downs (people had more time to spend online).
I was in lockdown and just worked, stayed home, slept a bit and worked out, probably lived a prison lifestyle.
I've moved out of the city and have taken up some more outdoor hobbies which has been good, but more importantly, I just stepped back, now working 4-8 hours a day max.
I saved some cash and I've decided that if I lose my job for taking it easy, then so be it. Funnily enough, I seem to be more productive now.
I was in lockdown and just worked, stayed home, slept a bit and worked out, probably lived a prison lifestyle.
I've moved out of the city and have taken up some more outdoor hobbies which has been good, but more importantly, I just stepped back, now working 4-8 hours a day max.
I saved some cash and I've decided that if I lose my job for taking it easy, then so be it. Funnily enough, I seem to be more productive now.
That's really interesting. My feelings are exactly the opposite. Chats with coworkers are a "/zoom meeting" command away. Everyone's name shows up on the screen so I don't awkwardly forget them. My desk setup is exactly how I like it. I can listen to whatever music I want to all day. I can do chores to get away from the screen for a few minutes. No lines at the bathroom.
I don't think I could ever work at a non-fully-remote company again. There are challenges, and you have to force yourself to socialize at all, but it's working for me. I always enjoyed working in the office (was never really bothered by noise, I can focus through it), but remote is much better. The time that you get back by not commuting and the ability to start work without being "fully ready" is great. (I have an incremental morning routine now, rather than rushing to shower, eat, caffeinate before sitting bored on a train for a half hour.)
I don't think I could ever work at a non-fully-remote company again. There are challenges, and you have to force yourself to socialize at all, but it's working for me. I always enjoyed working in the office (was never really bothered by noise, I can focus through it), but remote is much better. The time that you get back by not commuting and the ability to start work without being "fully ready" is great. (I have an incremental morning routine now, rather than rushing to shower, eat, caffeinate before sitting bored on a train for a half hour.)
Yeah it’s a lot more convenient, but the parent was talking about their passion for the field. I think most people would agree on convenience.
It probably depends on what makes you passionate about a field. Some people value the conferences and getting to discuss fun topics.
Others like myself want to disappear into a dark room and code for hours on end.
Others like myself want to disappear into a dark room and code for hours on end.
I mean, that's cool, but somewhere, at some stage, people must get together to help you decide what to work on?
I understand your comment and see the sense in it, but it made me wonder about decomposing the clauses to see what it means if it gets broken apart (excusing myself for over analyzing what is a simple statement)
>somewhere, at some stage
Well - why not on a video conference? And what stage(s) really require this? Most folks know what they are supposed to do / need to do to make things work - those that don't are in need of supervision / mentoring.
>people must get together to help you decide what to work on?
I misread this initially as "decide what you should work on" but I still think that there's not enough emphasis on the "we" part - in that really I see these decisions as being about co-ordination and helping everyone else out as much as anything else.
>somewhere, at some stage
Well - why not on a video conference? And what stage(s) really require this? Most folks know what they are supposed to do / need to do to make things work - those that don't are in need of supervision / mentoring.
>people must get together to help you decide what to work on?
I misread this initially as "decide what you should work on" but I still think that there's not enough emphasis on the "we" part - in that really I see these decisions as being about co-ordination and helping everyone else out as much as anything else.
Because:
Others like myself want to disappear into a dark room and code for hours on end.
Is the antithesis of working out business requirements / design etc so you have something to code?
I find the coding part of my job is about 5-10% of the actual job, mostly, it's working out what needs to be done, how I might go about it, and how to manage complexity.
It's rare that can be all done without input from others. I don't think I'd get very far if I just coded in a dark room for hours on end.
Others like myself want to disappear into a dark room and code for hours on end.
Is the antithesis of working out business requirements / design etc so you have something to code?
I find the coding part of my job is about 5-10% of the actual job, mostly, it's working out what needs to be done, how I might go about it, and how to manage complexity.
It's rare that can be all done without input from others. I don't think I'd get very far if I just coded in a dark room for hours on end.
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A lot of it probably depends on how your team is structured. I have a product manager for working out what is to be done and managing complexity.
The technical side of what needs to be done is something I solve alone. The business side is just told to me.
The technical side of what needs to be done is something I solve alone. The business side is just told to me.
It's the old adage "you can go faster alone but you go further together"
We hear about how people are now working much faster due to remote. Which is not surprising. But it's not really clear if that will yield to things going much further.
We hear about how people are now working much faster due to remote. Which is not surprising. But it's not really clear if that will yield to things going much further.
Oh certainly, but that is not the part of the job I value. If that is relegated to a board instead of a sprint planning meeting, I am perfectly happy.
Others enjoy that part the most and treat the individual work as merely a necessary task.
Others enjoy that part the most and treat the individual work as merely a necessary task.
We are never going back to normal. I don't know how to make people understand that. It seems they keep believing that if they just go along and do what they are told, things will be normal again.
You will see more variants of covid, more restrictions. If you go along with vaccinating and wearing health passes, you will be left alone for now. But you will have to continue to accept whatever they say. You no longer have any right to say no.
You will see more variants of covid, more restrictions. If you go along with vaccinating and wearing health passes, you will be left alone for now. But you will have to continue to accept whatever they say. You no longer have any right to say no.
Seems like we're on 8kun now...
I was never on 8kun or any similar sites, but honestly, I have similar thoughts and doubts as the post you were responding to had.
I'm not saying we never go back to normal, but I have my doubts about when that happens, and I am afraid it will take much much longer than expected.
It was "flatten the curve, and stay at home for a month". It was more than a year ago.
Then, it was "only if we had vaccine, things could go back to normal". Then we had vaccines, so we were told to take the vaccine, and once we have a reasonable ratio of vaccinated people, things will get better. In developed countries, basically everyone who wanted, could get a vaccine by now.
In the news we already hear about the bad outcomes with vaccinations and the variants, and there is also already chatter regarding the third "refresh" dose.
The writing is on the wall. This thing will take a long while.
I'm not saying we never go back to normal, but I have my doubts about when that happens, and I am afraid it will take much much longer than expected.
It was "flatten the curve, and stay at home for a month". It was more than a year ago.
Then, it was "only if we had vaccine, things could go back to normal". Then we had vaccines, so we were told to take the vaccine, and once we have a reasonable ratio of vaccinated people, things will get better. In developed countries, basically everyone who wanted, could get a vaccine by now.
In the news we already hear about the bad outcomes with vaccinations and the variants, and there is also already chatter regarding the third "refresh" dose.
The writing is on the wall. This thing will take a long while.
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> once we have a reasonable ratio of vaccinated people, things will get better. In developed countries, basically everyone who wanted, could get a vaccine by now.
A lot of the problem is that "reasonable ratio" and "everyone who wanted" are not the same number. The number I think of for reasonable ratio is 4 out of 5. Vaccination stalled well before that.
A lot of the problem is that "reasonable ratio" and "everyone who wanted" are not the same number. The number I think of for reasonable ratio is 4 out of 5. Vaccination stalled well before that.
Yes, that is true. But it is one more reason why we are not getting back to normal any time soon (in my opinion).
It will get only more difficult, in the early phases of the vaccine rollout, with patience and improved logistics, the ratio of vaccinated people improved rapidly. But what can they do next? Now comes the "stick", they will introduce more and more hurdles for the unvaccinated, but that takes time, causes resistance, and it will not increase the numbers fast enough.
All the while the variants are coming, and the existing vaccines do not show the same protection against the new variants, so there is a chance that the cycle will just continue with new variants, and new vaccines, new variants...
It will get only more difficult, in the early phases of the vaccine rollout, with patience and improved logistics, the ratio of vaccinated people improved rapidly. But what can they do next? Now comes the "stick", they will introduce more and more hurdles for the unvaccinated, but that takes time, causes resistance, and it will not increase the numbers fast enough.
All the while the variants are coming, and the existing vaccines do not show the same protection against the new variants, so there is a chance that the cycle will just continue with new variants, and new vaccines, new variants...
You do know that this will end, right? The Black Plague ended and they didn't even have antibiotics back then (heck, they didn't even have proper handwashing back then :-) ).
Yes, there will probably be some changes compared to life before Covid, but by and large normal activities such socializing, in developed countries, will be back to regular levels once we've vaccinated enough people. Which should be by mid-2022 at the latest.
Of course, if people refuse to be vaccinated, they're only prolonging this hell. Can't have both personal freedom and lack of personal responsibility, democracy doesn't work like that.
Yes, there will probably be some changes compared to life before Covid, but by and large normal activities such socializing, in developed countries, will be back to regular levels once we've vaccinated enough people. Which should be by mid-2022 at the latest.
Of course, if people refuse to be vaccinated, they're only prolonging this hell. Can't have both personal freedom and lack of personal responsibility, democracy doesn't work like that.
People yelling about what others need to do are prolonging this hell.
Gently telling others what they need to do doesn't seem to be working, either.
I'm convinced that a certain percentage of the population just doesn't give a crap about others. Hard to say the exact percentage, but something over 10% feels like a safe bet.
I'm convinced that a certain percentage of the population just doesn't give a crap about others. Hard to say the exact percentage, but something over 10% feels like a safe bet.
people who refuse to vaccinate and mask up when appropriate are who are prolonging this hell
My experience is the exact opposite. Having to be around people all day has been slowly draining the will to live from my soul for years. I dread the return to ‘normal’.
Another thing that I hear a lot is people complaining about a lack of work/life balance due to work from home and again here I feel the exact opposite. It has always felt really strange to me to confine work and the rest of my life into separate blocks of time and space. Going to an office, and spending an 8 hour block of time just on work, then going home and spending another 8 hour block on personal things before sleeping seems really unnatural and unhealthy to me.
With WfH I can blur the lines between them. When I’m stuck on something work related, I can just do some mindless chore around the house and that usually ets my mind unstuck. There is nothing more stressful than sitting at my desk in the office while beings stuck with nothing to do to take my mind off it for a while other than browsing the internet.
It just feels more natural and way less stressful to me to naturally flow from work to personal stuff and back.
Another thing that I hear a lot is people complaining about a lack of work/life balance due to work from home and again here I feel the exact opposite. It has always felt really strange to me to confine work and the rest of my life into separate blocks of time and space. Going to an office, and spending an 8 hour block of time just on work, then going home and spending another 8 hour block on personal things before sleeping seems really unnatural and unhealthy to me.
With WfH I can blur the lines between them. When I’m stuck on something work related, I can just do some mindless chore around the house and that usually ets my mind unstuck. There is nothing more stressful than sitting at my desk in the office while beings stuck with nothing to do to take my mind off it for a while other than browsing the internet.
It just feels more natural and way less stressful to me to naturally flow from work to personal stuff and back.
Yes, it was so amazing to just get to restructure my life as I saw fit to achieve what I needed to do.
That and just being able to do things in parallel was extremely valuable. Laundry could be run during the day. Same with the dishwasher. I could be around at 1 to put ribs in the oven for dinner. No more having to schlep down to the post office for missed deliveries.
It was quite fun while it lasted as I prefer to be able to blend everything I need to do into a single list.
That and just being able to do things in parallel was extremely valuable. Laundry could be run during the day. Same with the dishwasher. I could be around at 1 to put ribs in the oven for dinner. No more having to schlep down to the post office for missed deliveries.
It was quite fun while it lasted as I prefer to be able to blend everything I need to do into a single list.
> There is nothing more stressful than sitting at my desk in the office while beings stuck with nothing to do to take my mind off it for a while other than browsing the internet.
Go for a walk? Talk to another colleague about the problem or present them with a related theoretical?
Go for a walk? Talk to another colleague about the problem or present them with a related theoretical?
In Australia we had been barely touched by Covid until recently. My work generally involves a lot of rural road travel and talking to farmers and I really do miss that. Can't say I miss the air travel too much, it's the random stuff that happens when you are on the road that I miss more than anything. Listening to truckies on the UHF, blasting music or just motoring with purpose, listening to the FM Radio with a schedule to keep and sometimes not knowing exactly where you will be sleeping is damn fun sometimes. Talking to random people in pubs in small towns, sometimes digging through their cast offs in op-shops. Sleeping in a swag in the tray of my ute if I had to or nothing else was available. Small town, rural Australia is always an adventure.
Now - at home in a make-shift lab and coding. I still talk to people but Zoom just isn't the same. Supply chain issues are giving me headaches and relying on transport and post to get my gear out to people is frustrating and time consuming in a way that throwing it in the ute and driving isn't.
I had high hopes we would basically be back to normal this year but Delta has killed that for the moment.
Now - at home in a make-shift lab and coding. I still talk to people but Zoom just isn't the same. Supply chain issues are giving me headaches and relying on transport and post to get my gear out to people is frustrating and time consuming in a way that throwing it in the ute and driving isn't.
I had high hopes we would basically be back to normal this year but Delta has killed that for the moment.
Yep. Gotta agree with herodoturtle. That first paragraph gave me a better insight into small town, rural Australia than anything I've seen on TV.
Also...
> Sleeping in a swag in the tray of my ute
Loved that. It''s so good it could be a line in a song. Nice writing!
Also...
> Sleeping in a swag in the tray of my ute
Loved that. It''s so good it could be a line in a song. Nice writing!
That first paragraph was so much to read.
You write beautifully.
You write beautifully.
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Thankyou!
That first line was meant to be "so much *fun* to read"
Gosh what a terrible omission! Glad I added in that second line.
Gosh what a terrible omission! Glad I added in that second line.
I think that is a very self defeating attitude by someone who didn't even bother to try and improve their situation.
You don't have to be the sad lonely remote worker if that bothers you so much. Remote work has definitely HUGE advantages allowing people to find a much healthier work life balance and has undeniably a net positive effect in comparison to what we had before, but I agree, 100% remote and never stepping out of your house again and meeting other people is NOT healthy at all. Good news is, nobody forces you to live like this though. I have signed up for a co-working space where I live. WeWork offices are littered around the world. It costs only $199 or something like this to get a flexi hot desk where you can go to any WeWork in your country. I go into a co-working space at least once or twice a week. I sit next to other people who also work and we chat, socialise, we still play ping pong during our breaks and we stroll out to a pub afterwards. Most co-working spaces even organise weekly/monthly social events which makes it even easier to connect with other people.
If you feel isolated because of remote work, then it's not because of remote work, it's because of your own choice to not help yourself. It's like a child crying that their trousers are wet after repeatedly pissing themselves instead of going to the bathroom.
You don't have to be the sad lonely remote worker if that bothers you so much. Remote work has definitely HUGE advantages allowing people to find a much healthier work life balance and has undeniably a net positive effect in comparison to what we had before, but I agree, 100% remote and never stepping out of your house again and meeting other people is NOT healthy at all. Good news is, nobody forces you to live like this though. I have signed up for a co-working space where I live. WeWork offices are littered around the world. It costs only $199 or something like this to get a flexi hot desk where you can go to any WeWork in your country. I go into a co-working space at least once or twice a week. I sit next to other people who also work and we chat, socialise, we still play ping pong during our breaks and we stroll out to a pub afterwards. Most co-working spaces even organise weekly/monthly social events which makes it even easier to connect with other people.
If you feel isolated because of remote work, then it's not because of remote work, it's because of your own choice to not help yourself. It's like a child crying that their trousers are wet after repeatedly pissing themselves instead of going to the bathroom.
Good for you, but I don't think it's fair to pass judgment on someone's situation without knowing the whole picture.
No, it's tiring to see increasingly more people just overcomplicate some of life's simplest things.
If a person misses social contact then there is a really really simple solution to that. Unless the OP is currently in prison they should get off their arse and step outside their home and just start meeting people and talk to people if that is what they want. It worked like this hundred of thousand of years ago and it still works the same way today.
If a person misses social contact then there is a really really simple solution to that. Unless the OP is currently in prison they should get off their arse and step outside their home and just start meeting people and talk to people if that is what they want. It worked like this hundred of thousand of years ago and it still works the same way today.
Most people have a super hard time socializing in arbitrary locations.
That's why places where people freely socialize sell massive amounts of alcohol, alcohol reduces inhibitions and I imagine the stress level of interacting with someone for the first time.
Most life partners come from (frequently forced) proximity, same for best friends: kindergarten, school, university, workplace, etc.
Pontificating about what people should do doesn't help with what people have actually been doing for hundreds of thousands of years.
That's why places where people freely socialize sell massive amounts of alcohol, alcohol reduces inhibitions and I imagine the stress level of interacting with someone for the first time.
Most life partners come from (frequently forced) proximity, same for best friends: kindergarten, school, university, workplace, etc.
Pontificating about what people should do doesn't help with what people have actually been doing for hundreds of thousands of years.
I can't work in a co-working space since the projects I work on mean no-one outside of my company can see my screen.
Ha. All I said was that the current way of working killed my passion for working in enterprise IT. Not sure why the character assassination.
As it happens, I spent most of the year on the beach with zero regrets whatsoever.
Enjoy your WeWork.
As it happens, I spent most of the year on the beach with zero regrets whatsoever.
Enjoy your WeWork.
I'm the same. I don't think people realise how much of motivation is socially derived from your peers who you like and respect.
That's 3 passions in one post. Are you a manager or HR? Or both? And does that correlate with wanting to be live and in person?
I've worked remote for over a decade but this past year has been harder because you had so many more chores around the house plus less options to go outside plus school closures.
So, I am basically quite tired. I am kinda considering just taking a sabbatical year.
I still like the work, but the non-stop stress from corona, the non-stop news and the barely functioning society makes work a bit futile.
I've discovered the only thing I enjoyed to buy were books. And I need more time and quiet to read them.
Maybe it's a form of weird midlife crisis.
So, I am basically quite tired. I am kinda considering just taking a sabbatical year.
I still like the work, but the non-stop stress from corona, the non-stop news and the barely functioning society makes work a bit futile.
I've discovered the only thing I enjoyed to buy were books. And I need more time and quiet to read them.
Maybe it's a form of weird midlife crisis.
Might just be a bit of burnout. I've been a professional programmer for almost 50 years. I love it. But every 10 years or so, I fantasize about throwing all the computers out the window and doing something totally non-tech. Usually lasts about 6 months, then some new tech grabs my interest and I start all over again :-)
No matter how much you love something, you need the occasional break..I think that's just human nature.
No matter how much you love something, you need the occasional break..I think that's just human nature.
> I still like the work, but the non-stop stress from corona, the non-stop news and the barely functioning society makes work a bit futile.
I don't know how the breakdown of society makes itself felt for you, but if it's through news: take a sabbatical from news. The important stuff ("the sky is falling") will still reach you, but all the stuff that's not immediately relevant to you (i.e. everything not happening in a 30m radius around your home) isn't, and can't stress you out.
I don't know how the breakdown of society makes itself felt for you, but if it's through news: take a sabbatical from news. The important stuff ("the sky is falling") will still reach you, but all the stuff that's not immediately relevant to you (i.e. everything not happening in a 30m radius around your home) isn't, and can't stress you out.
I'm one of these people. Changed to a 40% contract, work Mon-Tue. I am in a privileged position where I'm able to live with my wage comfortably, albeit frugally. Living in Nordics helps too.
I was expecting that I'd be dwelling deep with all of those side projects that I was craving to do on work days instead of solving semi to not-at-all exciting problems for a company. Found out that those were mostly escapistic fantasies to regain my creative mind under the time and stress pressures.
Now I enjoy living simply. I feel better mentally and physically. Interesting to see where this will go. Maybe I'll eat the hustle fruit some day and start grinding - this idea that dictated my adult life seems very alien for me now.
I was expecting that I'd be dwelling deep with all of those side projects that I was craving to do on work days instead of solving semi to not-at-all exciting problems for a company. Found out that those were mostly escapistic fantasies to regain my creative mind under the time and stress pressures.
Now I enjoy living simply. I feel better mentally and physically. Interesting to see where this will go. Maybe I'll eat the hustle fruit some day and start grinding - this idea that dictated my adult life seems very alien for me now.
How does a 40% contract work for the company? Is what you are doing just rather small/not urgent (I mean this respectfully) for the company? I have asked a couple managers why companies do not offer this option and their answer is usually deadline/project size.
My work is important but not urgently so. I gave them the ultimatum - I have a lot of knowledge hard to gain from other sources.
An aside, though I think a worthy one; my favorite casual rebuttal to the pretentious phrase "knowledge worker" exists here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yDXPkor-Wxk
On topic though, I think that to the extent the New Yorker is describing the subset of technical work that many HN participants are engaged in, burn out was already a big problem pre-pandemic. So it's not a complete surprise for burnout to be on the rise during a such a global level catastrophe, even though many in tech have done well for themselves with steady high salary throughout the duration of the pandemic
On topic though, I think that to the extent the New Yorker is describing the subset of technical work that many HN participants are engaged in, burn out was already a big problem pre-pandemic. So it's not a complete surprise for burnout to be on the rise during a such a global level catastrophe, even though many in tech have done well for themselves with steady high salary throughout the duration of the pandemic
Nice article and thanks for sharing. I can relate to the article in that I’ve been a consultant for four years now. I, like many, am now remote with no foreseeable return to an office. I feel like Ive gone through so many phases of feelings since Ive been home and it’s wearing me down badly. I am ready to turn in my notice with no prospect on the horizon simply so I can go back to being normal, or as near to it as can be. I used to love my job. Now it’s this beast hiding in another room of my house and I fight with it every day.
I don't know if I'm going to quit 'knowledge work', but its sadly telling that the most satisfying project I've had all year is refurbing my mower deck with some paint and new blades and bearings.
I used to go to work with my dad and we'd bust out torches and welders and saws and compressors. Neither of my kids had anything beyond a passing interest in computers and my job (infosec) is completely invisible to them. There are definitely rewarding parts of the vocation and I'm still glad I'm in it, but visceral satisfaction can be difficult to find.
I don't know what this has to do with anything lol.
I used to go to work with my dad and we'd bust out torches and welders and saws and compressors. Neither of my kids had anything beyond a passing interest in computers and my job (infosec) is completely invisible to them. There are definitely rewarding parts of the vocation and I'm still glad I'm in it, but visceral satisfaction can be difficult to find.
I don't know what this has to do with anything lol.
Working with your hands is so satisfying. As is seeing the results with your eyes after a day of work. That being said, I am not good enough at that stuff to actually live of it. Plus, doing these jobs at scale still needs a ton of knowledge work.
Unless you were on cusp of retirement, I too believe that people will return back to work.
I also think that there will be some price to pay in terms of inflated pay packages and promotions people are getting these days. Some are warranted, some not.
While I've pay disequilibrium and imbalance before, never to this extent. When business cycle shifts and economy turns, the extent of layoff will be far greater.
I also think that there will be some price to pay in terms of inflated pay packages and promotions people are getting these days. Some are warranted, some not.
While I've pay disequilibrium and imbalance before, never to this extent. When business cycle shifts and economy turns, the extent of layoff will be far greater.
Better enjoy and save up while the going is good then. I'm very happy to have upgraded to market rate
>> I'm very happy to have upgraded to market rate
Soo much this! There's always going to be boom and bust cycles. And you know you're going to get screwed in the 'bust' cycles. The only question is, will you take full advantage of the 'boom' cycles.
Soo much this! There's always going to be boom and bust cycles. And you know you're going to get screwed in the 'bust' cycles. The only question is, will you take full advantage of the 'boom' cycles.
Anyone else pushing their sabbatical for when the world finally opens up?
I'd like to take some time off and decompress. Travel a little, learn a few things and eventually work on my side projects but the world being closed is a big mental blocker as that doesn't permit free travel.
Waiting for the world to open up so that I can sell everything and buy a 1 way ticket to Bali. Don't see it happening anytime soon though.
I'd like to take some time off and decompress. Travel a little, learn a few things and eventually work on my side projects but the world being closed is a big mental blocker as that doesn't permit free travel.
Waiting for the world to open up so that I can sell everything and buy a 1 way ticket to Bali. Don't see it happening anytime soon though.
The world isn't closed. I've been traveling for most of 2021, and when I started, I was "shocked" to find fellow travelers who've been traveling throughout 2020 as well.
Asia is fully closed. That's due to their culture. Latin America is fully open, due to the same reason. The Covid restrictions map is the new map of the world. Pick a green spot and go.
Asia is fully closed. That's due to their culture. Latin America is fully open, due to the same reason. The Covid restrictions map is the new map of the world. Pick a green spot and go.
> Asia is fully closed. That's due to their culture.
The famous shared culture of 3 billion people. /s
Not sure which countries you were looking at, but there are some where they do not have sufficient supplies of vaccines. That might be why they're closed to visitors.
The famous shared culture of 3 billion people. /s
Not sure which countries you were looking at, but there are some where they do not have sufficient supplies of vaccines. That might be why they're closed to visitors.
I left my lucrative cybersecurity startup job to pursue full time independent research in AGI. Several months in and it's been great progress wise, and I have to live more frugally.
Being on the cyber startup was like being on a cruise ship headed to some destination that was "just okay", all the while seeing an island off in the distance that we were slowly passing by, which is where I wanted to be. I jumped off the bow and started swimming towards the most meaningful goal I could hope to apply my skills toward. Will I advance the field of artificial consciousness? I hope to. There's so much I don't know, and even more no one really knows. COVID was a gift. Political and economic turmoil is a gift. I was already focusing on the goal of AGI, but the strife of the world gave me the will to leap for it.
I'm a software architect and really want to transition to AGI work. I feel like it's the most meaningful area of advancement I can work in. Any advice on how to get involved without being a software developer? I refuse to go back to programming lines of code.
AGI draws upon dozens of fields. The facet of AI Safety and Risk Mitigation consulting is where I started, and I was heavily influenced by Dr. Roman Yampolskiy. By the time we met in person I was already designing a bootstrap. It was a joy to get my hands in the code. When you find your real meaning for being on this earth, you won't refuse anything to go after it.
I'm in a similar situation; worked in a lucrative salary startup job with same "heading towards profitability and okay" and felt like that's not the destination I wanted to be; and now I'm working as a researcher in research-oriented startup toward consciousness research, with more freedom (but less than half the original salary).
While it's not related to COVID and remote work that much, not being able to spend the earned money on fun activities for sure put an extra question-mark in the "why am I doing this again?"
While it's not related to COVID and remote work that much, not being able to spend the earned money on fun activities for sure put an extra question-mark in the "why am I doing this again?"
"He wanted to establish a hard accounting of how much money was required, at a minimum, to achieve reasonable shelter, warmth, and food. This was the cost of survival. Work beyond this point was voluntary."
Wow. That last sentence really resonates.
Wow. That last sentence really resonates.
I would rather go a bit meta and quote Byung-Chul Han, that we live in a 'society of tiredness'. The German Korean philosopher, describes this quite interestingly in his book — Burnout society [1] (some parts are also in the youtube documentary here [2]). He intriguing describes the transition of modern worker from conditions of Foucauldian Disciplinary Society [3] into what he calls an 'Achievement society'.
In an achievement society, a subject is kinda like in a self-feedback loop. She/He are constantly reinventing their personality, profession, and beliefs. There is no solid self-image formed due to constant updates. He says this is largely because we live in an over-positivized world. Where there is no room for negativity and hence anything that is negative ceases to exist due to the way it is presented [4]. So, if your job is not working it is not anybody's problem but yours. So go do a masterclass in reactjs and stop being a philosopher. Then you do some personal branding, then hustle on twitter posting threads like "5 cool react plugins" or "Javascript or Typescript?". But we essentially tend to be stuck in that solitary, "I can do it". He says:
> “The modal verb that determines achievement society is not the Freudian Should, but Can”
Hence, we seem to be always in this Can state, without rest, even in our states of rest we are presenting our rest as images on social media to achieve. That philosophically is not rest. Modern human never rest. He is constantly producing. But, there is a kind of gratification crisis this leads to and one never achieves anything. He says :
> “Instead, the feeling of having achieved a goal never occurs. It is not that the narcissistic subject does not want to achieve closure. Rather, it is incapable of getting there.”
and eventually people get depressed due to this constant 'need of initiative'.
I am sorry, I explained it pretty bad. It seems written like an absolute thing but there are complications. Please do read the book (just 72 pages) and watch the documentary. It is not a supreme explanation but some bits kind a ring bell to be as I have been living in a kind of perpetual tiredness lately. Cheers and have a good day!
[1] https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=25725
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNkDeUApreo
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVFtc9_AB2k
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2YeJpkrTOQ
In an achievement society, a subject is kinda like in a self-feedback loop. She/He are constantly reinventing their personality, profession, and beliefs. There is no solid self-image formed due to constant updates. He says this is largely because we live in an over-positivized world. Where there is no room for negativity and hence anything that is negative ceases to exist due to the way it is presented [4]. So, if your job is not working it is not anybody's problem but yours. So go do a masterclass in reactjs and stop being a philosopher. Then you do some personal branding, then hustle on twitter posting threads like "5 cool react plugins" or "Javascript or Typescript?". But we essentially tend to be stuck in that solitary, "I can do it". He says:
> “The modal verb that determines achievement society is not the Freudian Should, but Can”
Hence, we seem to be always in this Can state, without rest, even in our states of rest we are presenting our rest as images on social media to achieve. That philosophically is not rest. Modern human never rest. He is constantly producing. But, there is a kind of gratification crisis this leads to and one never achieves anything. He says :
> “Instead, the feeling of having achieved a goal never occurs. It is not that the narcissistic subject does not want to achieve closure. Rather, it is incapable of getting there.”
and eventually people get depressed due to this constant 'need of initiative'.
I am sorry, I explained it pretty bad. It seems written like an absolute thing but there are complications. Please do read the book (just 72 pages) and watch the documentary. It is not a supreme explanation but some bits kind a ring bell to be as I have been living in a kind of perpetual tiredness lately. Cheers and have a good day!
[1] https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=25725
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNkDeUApreo
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVFtc9_AB2k
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2YeJpkrTOQ
I quit my ridiculously well paying cybersecurity job in January. Went traveling for most of the time since. Most of Latin America was/is consistently open, if you're wondering. So is some of eastern Europe and the neighboring Asian ex-soviet countries. Africa has potential too, I think (haven't been). If you're vaccinated (which I was, pretty early on) most of Europe opens up too (but probably not for long now).
You've read the cliche reasons for doing this kind of thing many times before, and honestly I don't think this newyorker article is saying anything very different.
My additional, edgy, uncensored reason: I couldn't shake the feeling that I was picking up the check for everybody else. I was paying very high taxes to essentially finance crazy government overreach, only to later lose the value of what's remaining to inflation due to all the money printing.
You've read the cliche reasons for doing this kind of thing many times before, and honestly I don't think this newyorker article is saying anything very different.
My additional, edgy, uncensored reason: I couldn't shake the feeling that I was picking up the check for everybody else. I was paying very high taxes to essentially finance crazy government overreach, only to later lose the value of what's remaining to inflation due to all the money printing.
Maybe the people working in hospitality, those that lost their already bad-paying jobs and are now struggling to make ends meet, are better candidates for "picking up the check for everybody else", or healthcare workers.
Or, in most cases, they are victims of government overreach.
Healthcare workers are victims of government overreach? That's an interesting thesis, would you like to elaborate?
In many European countries a big subsection(< specialist Dr.) of them most certainly are: no right to strike, low wages set by said governments and arbitrary rules imposed by same government that when not followed lead to inability to exercise your profession. Not too many other sectors where .gov even dictates your physical integrity. (No jab, no work)
> I couldn't shake the feeling that I was picking up the check for everybody else. I was paying very high taxes to essentially finance crazy government overreach, only to later lose the value of what's remaining to inflation due to all the money printing.
But you just said that the job you had overpaid you anyway so I don't really understand your point here.
But you just said that the job you had overpaid you anyway so I don't really understand your point here.
"The coronavirus pandemic threw everyone into Walden Pond."
The Author says that like its a bad thing. My open office can shove it, not going back.
The Author says that like its a bad thing. My open office can shove it, not going back.
The author should change Walden for David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" and he would probably get a better explanation of the phenomenon.
"After being in the industry for 15 years, I still do not have a good short answer for what environmental consultants do."
That quote alone says it all. These people are not satisfied because they don't have a real job, they have a bullshit job, and they know it.
The others are more of the same, you have a "coach" of the obvious that even him doesn't practice what he preaches and a member of "multiple projects and committees" that complains about wasting time all day talking with no focus or clear purpose.
They get pay to pretend to work all day by pushing papers, write endless jargon-ridden nonsense and, of course, attending endless meetings.
"After being in the industry for 15 years, I still do not have a good short answer for what environmental consultants do."
That quote alone says it all. These people are not satisfied because they don't have a real job, they have a bullshit job, and they know it.
The others are more of the same, you have a "coach" of the obvious that even him doesn't practice what he preaches and a member of "multiple projects and committees" that complains about wasting time all day talking with no focus or clear purpose.
They get pay to pretend to work all day by pushing papers, write endless jargon-ridden nonsense and, of course, attending endless meetings.
From :
https://www.economist.com/business/2021/06/05/why-the-bullsh...
"In his book, Mr Graeber relied heavily on surveys of British and Dutch workers that asked participants whether their job made a meaningful contribution to the world. This seems a high bar to clear; it is unsurprising that 37-40% of respondents thought their job didn’t qualify. By contrast, the academics used the European Working Conditions Surveys, which by 2015 had talked to 44,000 workers across 35 countries. They focused on those respondents who thought that the statement “I have the feeling of doing useful work” applied to them “rarely” or “never”.
In contrast to the high share of bullshit jobs reported by Mr Graeber, in 2015 only 4.8% of respondents in the eu felt their work was useless. And this proportion had fallen, not risen, in recent years, from 5.5% in 2010 and 7.8% in 2005."
[edit] Link to the paper discussed by the article:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09500170211015...
https://www.economist.com/business/2021/06/05/why-the-bullsh...
"In his book, Mr Graeber relied heavily on surveys of British and Dutch workers that asked participants whether their job made a meaningful contribution to the world. This seems a high bar to clear; it is unsurprising that 37-40% of respondents thought their job didn’t qualify. By contrast, the academics used the European Working Conditions Surveys, which by 2015 had talked to 44,000 workers across 35 countries. They focused on those respondents who thought that the statement “I have the feeling of doing useful work” applied to them “rarely” or “never”.
In contrast to the high share of bullshit jobs reported by Mr Graeber, in 2015 only 4.8% of respondents in the eu felt their work was useless. And this proportion had fallen, not risen, in recent years, from 5.5% in 2010 and 7.8% in 2005."
[edit] Link to the paper discussed by the article:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09500170211015...
I agree it would be nice to have more concrete numbers, but this in itself is a pretty shallow criticism of the bullshit jobs idea.
Part of Graeber's argument, too, is that many of us are employed doing useful jobs in service of others who have useless jobs. Think of all the office staff, product designers, marketers, janitors, factory workers hired by Juicero, for instance. They all had meaningful jobs in service of a product that should never had existed.
I also don't think that Graeber's standard is unfair -- making a meaningful contribtion to the world is quite a low bar for something we spend our entire lives doing for 8hr/day.
Besides, a useless job may be done by an employee who is unable or unwilling to realize it -- "it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it". It's really tough to find meaningful work that pays a living wage, so many of us try to find small amounts of meaning in the jobs that we have. It doesn't make our jobs any less useless, though.
Part of Graeber's argument, too, is that many of us are employed doing useful jobs in service of others who have useless jobs. Think of all the office staff, product designers, marketers, janitors, factory workers hired by Juicero, for instance. They all had meaningful jobs in service of a product that should never had existed.
I also don't think that Graeber's standard is unfair -- making a meaningful contribtion to the world is quite a low bar for something we spend our entire lives doing for 8hr/day.
Besides, a useless job may be done by an employee who is unable or unwilling to realize it -- "it is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it". It's really tough to find meaningful work that pays a living wage, so many of us try to find small amounts of meaning in the jobs that we have. It doesn't make our jobs any less useless, though.
Apologies for those who can't get around the paywal.
It gets worse for Graeber's thesis. The next paragraph from the ones previously quoted:
"Furthermore, those who work in clerical and administrative jobs are far less likely to view their jobs as useless than those who are employed in roles that Mr Graeber regarded as essential, such as refuse collection and cleaning. Indeed, the researchers found an inverse relationship between education and the feeling of usefulness. Less educated workers were likelier to feel that their jobs were useless. And student debt does not appear to be a factor. In Britain, where its level is the highest in Europe, non-graduates under 29 were twice as likely to feel useless as their indebted graduate peers."
So not only are his numbers pretty poor his thesis gets the numbers the wrong way around for those who feel their jobs are of little value.
Link to the paper :
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09500170211015...
It gets worse for Graeber's thesis. The next paragraph from the ones previously quoted:
"Furthermore, those who work in clerical and administrative jobs are far less likely to view their jobs as useless than those who are employed in roles that Mr Graeber regarded as essential, such as refuse collection and cleaning. Indeed, the researchers found an inverse relationship between education and the feeling of usefulness. Less educated workers were likelier to feel that their jobs were useless. And student debt does not appear to be a factor. In Britain, where its level is the highest in Europe, non-graduates under 29 were twice as likely to feel useless as their indebted graduate peers."
So not only are his numbers pretty poor his thesis gets the numbers the wrong way around for those who feel their jobs are of little value.
Link to the paper :
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09500170211015...
Perhaps that's where my own theory of bullshit jobs diverges from Graeber's then. I'd say a job can be bullshit regardless of whether or not the person doing it agrees.
As for janitors feeling like their jobs are meaningless and office workers feeling meaningful, I'd say that's a reflection of our culture. Universities are full of administrators with fancy titles who probably feel very important, but it's not clear their presence furthers the very important goal of education.
As for janitors feeling like their jobs are meaningless and office workers feeling meaningful, I'd say that's a reflection of our culture. Universities are full of administrators with fancy titles who probably feel very important, but it's not clear their presence furthers the very important goal of education.
>I also don't think that Graeber's standard is unfair -- making a meaningful contribtion to the world is quite a low bar for something we spend our entire lives doing for 8hr/day.
I'm aware of Graeber's work but haven't read it, so I'm sidestepping it and focusing on your comment here. So what is a meaningful contribution to the world? I've thought about that, and narrowed it down as best I can.
I have a simple list for defining meaningful work: 1) work that gives life-providing help to others (e.g., teachers or physical therapists); 2) working on problems of existence (e.g., medical research); 3) make art.
As I've outlined it, most of us are not doing meaningful work, myself included. Certainly, any criteria for meaningful work necessitates a bunch of not-meaningful work for support—"the office staff, product designers, marketers, janitors, factory workers," etc. you mentioned—but that comparatively low number of people actually doing meaningful work suggests (if my criteria are valid) it's a rather high bar.
I'm aware of Graeber's work but haven't read it, so I'm sidestepping it and focusing on your comment here. So what is a meaningful contribution to the world? I've thought about that, and narrowed it down as best I can.
I have a simple list for defining meaningful work: 1) work that gives life-providing help to others (e.g., teachers or physical therapists); 2) working on problems of existence (e.g., medical research); 3) make art.
As I've outlined it, most of us are not doing meaningful work, myself included. Certainly, any criteria for meaningful work necessitates a bunch of not-meaningful work for support—"the office staff, product designers, marketers, janitors, factory workers," etc. you mentioned—but that comparatively low number of people actually doing meaningful work suggests (if my criteria are valid) it's a rather high bar.
The presumably rightful allegation of exaggerated numbers in Graeber's book does not necessarily render the existence of "bullshit jobs" untrue.
I see that the (alleged) empirical flaws throw a shade on his hypothesis, but they do not disqualify it in its entirety.
work wouldn't be called work, if they did not have to pay you for it.
There is a wide spectrum here though.
I would still write code if not paid for it. I just wouldn’t write code for you. I am paid to use my code writing interests for your goals.
I have no interest in ever being a toilet paper salesman and would never try to hawk toilet paper in my free time. You need to pay me a lot to do that.
I would still write code if not paid for it. I just wouldn’t write code for you. I am paid to use my code writing interests for your goals.
I have no interest in ever being a toilet paper salesman and would never try to hawk toilet paper in my free time. You need to pay me a lot to do that.
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"Meaningful contribution to the world" is now a high bar to clear? No wonder the suicide rates in the West are so high. We expect people to invest 90,000 hours of their life into a thing and are offended when they ask it to not be utterly point- and useless...
I couldn't read the article because of the paywall. Judging by the quote, there are significant problems with this report. First, “a meaningful contribution to the world” and “the feeling of doing useful work” are vastly different phrases. Comparing replies to them is meaningless. Second, the definition of a bullshit job is not if it makes “a meaningful contribution to the world”. Using replies to that phrase as the share of bullshit jobs is, therefore, wrong. A job is bullshit if the one who is doing it thinks it's bullshit according to Graeber.
> A job is bullshit if the one who is doing it thinks it's bullshit according to Graeber.
Sounds reasonable. My understanding is that Graeber's work concentrates on what Marx described as "alienation of labour", where people are sufficiently specialised that they don't draw satisfaction from their work any more. Some of these bullshit jobs are probably actually useful, but if it makes the worker feel like this then it still has the same ruinous effect on them, and to a point, society. In this case, feelings can trump facts.
Sounds reasonable. My understanding is that Graeber's work concentrates on what Marx described as "alienation of labour", where people are sufficiently specialised that they don't draw satisfaction from their work any more. Some of these bullshit jobs are probably actually useful, but if it makes the worker feel like this then it still has the same ruinous effect on them, and to a point, society. In this case, feelings can trump facts.
I've never had a bullshit job, but I have had a lot of rather pointless meetings through my career... If you do take a bs job, isn't that exactly to pass the time while you make money? Or are there also bs demands put on you that you cannot get away from? So you're forced to do pointless stuff through-out the day, that makes little or no impact on the business as a whole? I think I'd become really, really cynical if I had to work like that. Chances are also that I'd become "creative" in such a job, but not in a good way. Or perhaps there are ways to macro such jobs? I'm really curious about these things... :p The only way I can relate to jobs like these are really through movies such as Office Space or Fight Club.
I'd rather have environmental consultants than what 90% of software developers are doing.
Also a lot of companies will now be combining the worst on-premise practices with the worst WFH practices.
I've been out of a job most of the pandemic and am now working at a marketing company that did just that.
We are required to be present in the office but people do everything (even HR issues) over Slack and e-mail. It's mindnumbingly dumb.
I've been out of a job most of the pandemic and am now working at a marketing company that did just that.
We are required to be present in the office but people do everything (even HR issues) over Slack and e-mail. It's mindnumbingly dumb.
Eh, I think the Walden aspect is spot on. I downscaled my career, but five years ago - however for precisely the reasons the author cites. I was burned out from needing to be available 24/7 for a decade - spending your life waiting for the sky to fall really takes its toll. My job wasn’t bullshit - it was my business, and I had real responsibilities to my employees, my customers, and my shareholders.
As to the “back to basics” movement, I followed this path, bought myself a laughably cheap home (<€50k) in a laughably cheap country (<€20 tax per year), and while I no longer have access to some of the services I once had, I couldn’t be happier. I do what the hell I want to, whenever the hell I want to. Agency is worth anything.
Over the past year, I have been contacted by a stampede of acquaintances, friends, their friends and acquaintances, who all want to do what we’ve done. Most work in tech, in meaningful senior roles. Rural property prices have suddenly rocketed both here and in my country of origin.
Yeah, it’s mostly apocryphal, anecdotal, idiosyncratic, but I think people are just realising that they are miserable, and spending time doing crafts and outdoorsy stuff has made them realise that these things feed the soul.
As to the “back to basics” movement, I followed this path, bought myself a laughably cheap home (<€50k) in a laughably cheap country (<€20 tax per year), and while I no longer have access to some of the services I once had, I couldn’t be happier. I do what the hell I want to, whenever the hell I want to. Agency is worth anything.
Over the past year, I have been contacted by a stampede of acquaintances, friends, their friends and acquaintances, who all want to do what we’ve done. Most work in tech, in meaningful senior roles. Rural property prices have suddenly rocketed both here and in my country of origin.
Yeah, it’s mostly apocryphal, anecdotal, idiosyncratic, but I think people are just realising that they are miserable, and spending time doing crafts and outdoorsy stuff has made them realise that these things feed the soul.
I’ve always had a percentage of remote work, but with no in person work, events, travel, socialising, it’s just not enough to hold my attention and passion.
I’ve drifted into taking a year out of the industry and thoroughly enjoying stepping back for a while.
I’m mentally waiting for things to “return to normal” but feeling like I might be waiting for a long time.