Ask HN: Do you use a Linux-first laptop? (System76, Librem, Dell XPS Dev Ed)
43 comments
Lenovo's Thinkpad series is also a good bet. Some of their laptops now ship Linux (Fedora) by default. You can get the list here - https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/d/linux-laptops-desktops?sort=s...
I run F34 on a Thinkpad 13" myself and have used Macbooks in the past. UX-wise it's a bit of a downgrade - The trackpad isn't as good, and is quite a but smaller because it has physical buttons. - The screen is matte instead of glossy (personal preference - but I prefer matte screens). - The Fn key is where LCtrl should be. (takes some time to get used to honestly) - Battery is good, but not Macbook good
But Thinkpads generally have pretty good customer service, good upgradability (RAM, SSD, maybe WiFi chip) and a good number of ports.
I run F34 on a Thinkpad 13" myself and have used Macbooks in the past. UX-wise it's a bit of a downgrade - The trackpad isn't as good, and is quite a but smaller because it has physical buttons. - The screen is matte instead of glossy (personal preference - but I prefer matte screens). - The Fn key is where LCtrl should be. (takes some time to get used to honestly) - Battery is good, but not Macbook good
But Thinkpads generally have pretty good customer service, good upgradability (RAM, SSD, maybe WiFi chip) and a good number of ports.
> The Fn key is where LCtrl should be.
You can change that. An option in the BIOS.
You can change that. An option in the BIOS.
Thinkpad brand is legendary. The one hesitation I have is some sort of rootkit that Lenovo was installing called SilverFish (sp?). Did that come up on your radar?
FWIW, I'll add this as a former Lenovo employee. Lenovo got their hands slapped pretty hard over that deal, and up through the time I was there (near the end of 2019) all of the people in and around my group took consumer privacy very seriously, and were very committed to making sure we never wound up making a mistake like that again.
Now... could upper management still make a decision to push something like that and make it happen? Yes, in principle. There are no guarantees. But based on observed behavior / communications that I saw inside of Lenovo I would not expect anything like that. Still, I can understand a measure of skepticism based on that whole debacle. It was a huge black-eye for the company.
Now... could upper management still make a decision to push something like that and make it happen? Yes, in principle. There are no guarantees. But based on observed behavior / communications that I saw inside of Lenovo I would not expect anything like that. Still, I can understand a measure of skepticism based on that whole debacle. It was a huge black-eye for the company.
Superfish iirc was Windows only. They broke (very loosely speaking) encryption to show you ads. But yes, theoretically a similar attack can be done on Linux too. Beating this is comparatively easy, reinstall the OS and kernel and install a clean version of some Linux distro.
Long time ago.
Running Fedora on my Thinkpad after having switched away from macOS/Mac Air's. I paid €450 and it's 2x faster with 3x better SW, compared to my €2500 air.
Running Fedora on my Thinkpad after having switched away from macOS/Mac Air's. I paid €450 and it's 2x faster with 3x better SW, compared to my €2500 air.
Let's include some players from the EU:
Tuxedo (https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Note...) - brand new, released a month ago
KDE Slimbook (https://kde.slimbook.es) - with an AMD processor
For home computing I myself am running a 9343 XPS 13 from 2015, not the Dev edition, just because it was not available at the time I was ordering...
I have been using Thinkpads (L4xx, T4xx, X1 Carbon, P1) for work, and despite what everyone says, I'm not too happy with them. The trackpad is low quality, the keyboards have been getting worse and worse - I much prefer my trusty XPS. The latest P1 also weighs a ton and the battery life is a joke. Also, suspend/resume is still sometimes a hit-and-miss (unbelievable in 2021?). But YMMV.
Tuxedo (https://www.tuxedocomputers.com/en/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Note...) - brand new, released a month ago
KDE Slimbook (https://kde.slimbook.es) - with an AMD processor
For home computing I myself am running a 9343 XPS 13 from 2015, not the Dev edition, just because it was not available at the time I was ordering...
I have been using Thinkpads (L4xx, T4xx, X1 Carbon, P1) for work, and despite what everyone says, I'm not too happy with them. The trackpad is low quality, the keyboards have been getting worse and worse - I much prefer my trusty XPS. The latest P1 also weighs a ton and the battery life is a joke. Also, suspend/resume is still sometimes a hit-and-miss (unbelievable in 2021?). But YMMV.
I previously had two MacBook airs, and then switched to the XPS 13 & Ubuntu + gnome.
And presently I have been given a MacBook Pro for a recent job.
From a software perspective, I now love the XPS. And all the hardware on that model more or less worked out of the box. And any minor issues, I was able to fix with some tweaking. Which was annoying at the time, but always granted me a stronger appreciation for and understanding of how my computer worked.
18.04 to 20.04 upgrade was a pain, had to re-apply many changes I’d made during the initial install. But since then it’s been smooth sailing again. No day to day problems.
Things I once missed about OSX, I now realise are better on gnome. Capability to snap / move windows around with keyboard controls.
But the MacBook keyword is just damn nicer. And the touchpad. Tho I hardly use that now. I use an external keyboard, but I’ll probably buy a Mac external keyboard for my XPS now, as the recent move back has been a stronger reminder of how much nicer they are.
Gaming and music production are the only things I haven’t been able to do on the XPS. Not that I do any gaming anymore. And the focus rite 2i2 worked straight out of the box with reaper, which was cool. Tho if I were doing anything more serious I’d just get a Mac. Would not touch windows.
All in all, for dev, I’m happy with the XPS and Ubuntu.
And presently I have been given a MacBook Pro for a recent job.
From a software perspective, I now love the XPS. And all the hardware on that model more or less worked out of the box. And any minor issues, I was able to fix with some tweaking. Which was annoying at the time, but always granted me a stronger appreciation for and understanding of how my computer worked.
18.04 to 20.04 upgrade was a pain, had to re-apply many changes I’d made during the initial install. But since then it’s been smooth sailing again. No day to day problems.
Things I once missed about OSX, I now realise are better on gnome. Capability to snap / move windows around with keyboard controls.
But the MacBook keyword is just damn nicer. And the touchpad. Tho I hardly use that now. I use an external keyboard, but I’ll probably buy a Mac external keyboard for my XPS now, as the recent move back has been a stronger reminder of how much nicer they are.
Gaming and music production are the only things I haven’t been able to do on the XPS. Not that I do any gaming anymore. And the focus rite 2i2 worked straight out of the box with reaper, which was cool. Tho if I were doing anything more serious I’d just get a Mac. Would not touch windows.
All in all, for dev, I’m happy with the XPS and Ubuntu.
I have a Thinkpad P1, which I bought for Linux compatibility. I installed Ubuntu 20.04 on it and have had no issues. However I use the machine semi-strictly for development, and I have a Macbook where I keep my 100-tab browsing, video calls, and document authoring.
I previously had an XPS-13 and I ran into a lot of (minor) stuff where the computer would lock up and CPU would max out when having too many tabs open, or e.g. being on a zoom call and trying to alt-tab into g-suite in the browser.
I previously had an XPS-13 and I ran into a lot of (minor) stuff where the computer would lock up and CPU would max out when having too many tabs open, or e.g. being on a zoom call and trying to alt-tab into g-suite in the browser.
Helpful to know about the XPS bugs. Sounds odd, with Apple I've grown so used to not having issues like that.
Sounds like OOM issues, nothing to do with the XPS per se...
Yes, I didn't mean to give the impression that it was an XPS specific issue, though I see how it looks like that's what I was saying. I've had similar memory issues, in particular using browser based applications like g-suite, on other linux machine as well
Have you considered the Lenovo X1 Extreme Gen 4? It came out about two weeks ago and Lenovos are generally known to be Linux friendly out of the box. But they are pricey and shipment might be delayed due to chip and material shortages. With that said, they can last you a while if you take care of them and are quite repairable.
It also would help if you provided us with your needs aside from privacy (web development, ML training, gaming, etc.), budget, and expected usage before replacement.
It also would help if you provided us with your needs aside from privacy (web development, ML training, gaming, etc.), budget, and expected usage before replacement.
Appreciate the thoughtful response!
Lots of web work, Google docs, Slack, Zoom. When I bought my 16" MBP it was an upgrade from MBA sucking at Zoom and just not wanting to deal with it. It was also to do video editing - but that's no longer needed. I've grown used to the big size, but have used 12"-13" screens forever so going back isn't a big hit.
Checking out the X1 Extreme now. Realizing the trackpad with buttons above and the red nub is not my style so I can take them off my list.
Lots of web work, Google docs, Slack, Zoom. When I bought my 16" MBP it was an upgrade from MBA sucking at Zoom and just not wanting to deal with it. It was also to do video editing - but that's no longer needed. I've grown used to the big size, but have used 12"-13" screens forever so going back isn't a big hit.
Checking out the X1 Extreme now. Realizing the trackpad with buttons above and the red nub is not my style so I can take them off my list.
A ThinkBook or IdeaPad might be better for you then, just MAKE SURE to get an Intel rather than Realtek wireless card or you will need to switch it yourself
I bought a Lenovo ThinkBook from NewEgg, preconfigured with LinuxMint, because I didn't want to risk driver issues, it had to "just work." So far so good. My physical and computing demands are not that heavy.
They sell higher end preconfigured also.
They sell higher end preconfigured also.
I don't think Newegg configures computers themselves, I believe it's third party stores that do the upgrades and sell the openbox items using Newegg's marketplace.
Yep. Good point.
I just mentioned NewEgg for sourcing. By "they" I meant Lenovo.
Tangent: I went to NewEgg because they have fought the good fight against patent trolls. I was so disappointed to discover this third party relationship had taken hold there. It's one reason why I hate shopping at Amazon anymore.
I just mentioned NewEgg for sourcing. By "they" I meant Lenovo.
Tangent: I went to NewEgg because they have fought the good fight against patent trolls. I was so disappointed to discover this third party relationship had taken hold there. It's one reason why I hate shopping at Amazon anymore.
I've owned a System76 darter pro for a year. I've had two noticable issues, but overall I've loved the experience and would absolutely do it again. I personally prefer System76's pragmatic "get things working first and gradually make them not depend on binary blobs later" approach compared to Purism which sacrifices quality for openness.
The issues:
- Apparently random force shut downs every few days for months. Their support wasn't able to diagnose the issue, but it eventually went away on its own. Logs had nothing, they just stopped.
- Hinge broke requiring ~$200 repair costs (needed to replace most of the exterior shell)
However, I'm relatively hard on laptops and have also had similar issues with other laptops. For example, I had a MacBook that regularly reset it's clock to zero unix time probably because of a hardware issue and needed to have the memory replaced.
The issues:
- Apparently random force shut downs every few days for months. Their support wasn't able to diagnose the issue, but it eventually went away on its own. Logs had nothing, they just stopped.
- Hinge broke requiring ~$200 repair costs (needed to replace most of the exterior shell)
However, I'm relatively hard on laptops and have also had similar issues with other laptops. For example, I had a MacBook that regularly reset it's clock to zero unix time probably because of a hardware issue and needed to have the memory replaced.
Yeah Purism is facing a two sided problem. Solving for privacy and Linux quality. It follows then that every System76 purchase helps a healthy Linux ecosystem AND enables others like Purism to push it even further. For Purism to win the marketplace needs System76 to win as well.
Ouch on those issues though. That would be roughto work with random shutdowns. This is good intel.
Ouch on those issues though. That would be roughto work with random shutdowns. This is good intel.
Historically wielded a Dell XPS that came with Ubuntu. Installation died on first boot from the factory, despite this being several generations in.
I switched though: Lenovo carbon beats the socks off of the XPS in every regard.
I switched though: Lenovo carbon beats the socks off of the XPS in every regard.
Hi!
Been running Linux on laptops for years (over a decade). Everything from XPS to Thinkpad and System76.
My first recommendation is to check the Linux distro wiki and see what hardware is officially supported. Ubuntu, RHEL / Fedora, and the major distros have lists and tell you what is officially supported; even sometimes down the the piece of hardware (i.e. Thinkpad fingerprint reader) and precise serial numbers. If you're not going to look at the distros wiki or you're not sure what distro you're going to run, the general rule of thumb is the older the hardware the better chance it is of being supported.
Now, my personal opinions:
I've owned two Thinkpads (x270 & x220), had a dell XPS 13 from work ~4 years ago, and my wife currently owns a System76 Lemur Pro (I have a Thelio Desktop). I've run Ubuntu and RHEL flavored distros on all these. Personally, the Thinkpads blow the Dells and System76 in terms of quality out of the water, and I'd argue they do with hardware support as well (if you're running RHEL / Fedora). The System76 works great with Ubuntu since the drivers and firmware are open (and POP!OS), but I'm not impressed with the quality of the product. Keyboard is low quality, as well as finish (footpads ungluing, finish on keys / track pad coming off, etc.). Dell makes a nice computer, but when I had my XPS 13 there were some major issues with HiDPI (I'm sure it's fixed now). I also didn't like the keyboard and the charging port was finicky.
Gonna be honest, you're going to get a downgrade. Not even just hardware, but software as well. Battery is much worse. Hibernate / suspend / lock is much worse. Linux (GNOME) is still a much better experience on a desktop workstation. Also, for what it's worth, I run RHEL 8 on my desktop workstation, and my next laptop will be a macbook air to pair with my iphone se (first gen!). Everyone's needs are different, but for mobile computing I'd rather have 15 hour battery life, software / hardware harmony, and be able to drive to an apple store for a replacement when my nephew spills apple juice on it when I'm out of town visiting family.
Another thing; supply chains are still really messed up. You're looking at 4+ months lead time for a custom Thinkpad right now. Just something to consider.
Been running Linux on laptops for years (over a decade). Everything from XPS to Thinkpad and System76.
My first recommendation is to check the Linux distro wiki and see what hardware is officially supported. Ubuntu, RHEL / Fedora, and the major distros have lists and tell you what is officially supported; even sometimes down the the piece of hardware (i.e. Thinkpad fingerprint reader) and precise serial numbers. If you're not going to look at the distros wiki or you're not sure what distro you're going to run, the general rule of thumb is the older the hardware the better chance it is of being supported.
Now, my personal opinions:
I've owned two Thinkpads (x270 & x220), had a dell XPS 13 from work ~4 years ago, and my wife currently owns a System76 Lemur Pro (I have a Thelio Desktop). I've run Ubuntu and RHEL flavored distros on all these. Personally, the Thinkpads blow the Dells and System76 in terms of quality out of the water, and I'd argue they do with hardware support as well (if you're running RHEL / Fedora). The System76 works great with Ubuntu since the drivers and firmware are open (and POP!OS), but I'm not impressed with the quality of the product. Keyboard is low quality, as well as finish (footpads ungluing, finish on keys / track pad coming off, etc.). Dell makes a nice computer, but when I had my XPS 13 there were some major issues with HiDPI (I'm sure it's fixed now). I also didn't like the keyboard and the charging port was finicky.
Gonna be honest, you're going to get a downgrade. Not even just hardware, but software as well. Battery is much worse. Hibernate / suspend / lock is much worse. Linux (GNOME) is still a much better experience on a desktop workstation. Also, for what it's worth, I run RHEL 8 on my desktop workstation, and my next laptop will be a macbook air to pair with my iphone se (first gen!). Everyone's needs are different, but for mobile computing I'd rather have 15 hour battery life, software / hardware harmony, and be able to drive to an apple store for a replacement when my nephew spills apple juice on it when I'm out of town visiting family.
Another thing; supply chains are still really messed up. You're looking at 4+ months lead time for a custom Thinkpad right now. Just something to consider.
Would love to hear more from everyone on power management: Does your machine manage power mode settings well? Does sleep mode work? How about hibernate?
Thanks.
Thanks.
I use a System 76 machine. I've had it for a couple of months now. So far I've been exceptionally happy with it. The only real criticism I have is that there's one aspect of the keyboard layout that I don't like, compared to the Dell I use at my $DAYJOB. But that's a minor nit in the grand scheme of things.
I have had a Librem 13" v3 since Feb '19. It's good.
I did have a second hand v3 which had a bad mic. Purism replaced after confirming I legitimately bought it. I've had no issues with the second one.
It performs well. I code web apps and do some photo editing on it and it's fine for both. RAW processing can be a little slow.
I did have a second hand v3 which had a bad mic. Purism replaced after confirming I legitimately bought it. I've had no issues with the second one.
It performs well. I code web apps and do some photo editing on it and it's fine for both. RAW processing can be a little slow.
Dell precision 54xx laptops with linux are pretty nice but my more recent one had thunderbolt issues and the support didn't live up to the "linux first" support I was expecting. I have switched to the system76 and really like the Lemur Pro 14.
Thanks! That's what I would order as well if they were in stock.
Did you buy the base RAM/Hd and upgrade yourself or did you have them configure it?
Did you buy the base RAM/Hd and upgrade yourself or did you have them configure it?
You can run many Linux distros on MBP, so why not just replace the OS and continue to enjoy the exceptional hardware? You may need to research the distros to see exactly what issues may exist for your specific model of MBP.
Yes! This is what I wanted to do at first. VERY open to this if there's a way.
However, the 2019 16" Macbook Pro cannot run Linux well. This Github repo seems like the best attempt to make it work -- but even Wi-Fi doesn't work!
https://gist.github.com/gbrow004/096f845c8fe8d03ef9009fbb87b...
As far as I can tell that's the latest but maybe I misunderstood. Open to ideas!!
If anyone here has the 16" MBP running Linux of any sort -- please let me know! Heck I would even pay for a solution.
Edit: this seems promising? https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/lwqm19/linu...
However, the 2019 16" Macbook Pro cannot run Linux well. This Github repo seems like the best attempt to make it work -- but even Wi-Fi doesn't work!
https://gist.github.com/gbrow004/096f845c8fe8d03ef9009fbb87b...
As far as I can tell that's the latest but maybe I misunderstood. Open to ideas!!
If anyone here has the 16" MBP running Linux of any sort -- please let me know! Heck I would even pay for a solution.
Edit: this seems promising? https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/lwqm19/linu...
I've recently tried different Linux distros (Fedora, Ubuntu, PopOS) on my 2013 MacBook since Catalina is soon going to be deprecated and will not receive any security updates.
Installing the wifi drivers is annoying since the distros ship without proprietary drivers (broadcom). You either have to plug it in via cable (use an adapter) or use tethering with your phone to download the drivers after installation. But this is fine since you only have to do it once.
More problematic is the CPU temp which is on average around 15C higher on Linux than on macOS. I've done a lot of research on this but couldn't figure a way to lower it, and from what I can tell this is a common problem with people who run linux on a macbook.
You'll definitely notice it when placing your laptop on your lap. Of course you can increase the fan speed but then the laptop is a bit louder. If you can live with a slightly hotter or louder laptop then running linux on your macbook is fine, everything works. Right now I'm still using macOS until support runs out.
Installing the wifi drivers is annoying since the distros ship without proprietary drivers (broadcom). You either have to plug it in via cable (use an adapter) or use tethering with your phone to download the drivers after installation. But this is fine since you only have to do it once.
More problematic is the CPU temp which is on average around 15C higher on Linux than on macOS. I've done a lot of research on this but couldn't figure a way to lower it, and from what I can tell this is a common problem with people who run linux on a macbook.
You'll definitely notice it when placing your laptop on your lap. Of course you can increase the fan speed but then the laptop is a bit louder. If you can live with a slightly hotter or louder laptop then running linux on your macbook is fine, everything works. Right now I'm still using macOS until support runs out.
Update: turns out there's an incredible Discord, github repos, and wiki for supporting Macs with T2 chips like my 2019 16" MBP. They got me up and running with Ubuntu on my MBP! With wifi, keyboard, mouse, and a member walked me through the whole install.
https://t2linux.org/
https://t2linux.org/
Amazing! Didn’t think I’d ever see the day where Linux ran on a T2 chip MacBook
I have always run Linux on various laptops and never had major issues.
Various models from Dell (including those not advertised for Linux), ThinkPads, etc.
Various models from Dell (including those not advertised for Linux), ThinkPads, etc.
Dell Precision m5520 shipped with perfect Ubuntu Xenial 16.04 install, including display profile. Forget about the rest.
Excellent, didn't realize the Dell Precision was another Ubuntu option. Why forget about the rest, what's so good about it?
If you want a 15" linux supported laptop from Dell you need to go with the Precision line.
The XPS 15 is not sold as compatible/supported, only the XPS 13.
(I have an XPS13. It's mostly pretty good except I have regular occasional issues with Wifi when waking up from sleep. The wifi is soldered in so can't be replaced unfortunately. Hopefully that's better on the later versions).
The XPS 15 is not sold as compatible/supported, only the XPS 13.
(I have an XPS13. It's mostly pretty good except I have regular occasional issues with Wifi when waking up from sleep. The wifi is soldered in so can't be replaced unfortunately. Hopefully that's better on the later versions).
If your MBP is semi old, please try a linux distro there before you buy new hardware. It might be all you need.
I'm happy with my Librem 15 running Qubes OS. 32 GB RAM really help. WiFi, suspend work flawlessly.
If you can afford it, Dell Precision 7xxx is by far the best linux laptop with official support.
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I switched from an MBP to a Dell Precision 5520 with Ubuntu, then upgraded to a 5540 and am looking forward to the 5760. My colleagues are also using the 5540. These machines have been rgreat for us. We don't have much time to spend to tweak things, instead do a clean reinstall every few weeks and apply all upgrades as quickly as they come. Dell and Canonical have been supporting these machines quite well, in our experience.
A. Purism Librem 14": https://puri.sm/products/librem-14/
B. System76 Laptops: https://system76.com/laptops/
C. Dell XPS Developer Edition: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebooks/xps-13-developer-edition/spd/xps-13-9310-laptop/