Smart kids should skip high school (2015)(sonyaellenmann.com)
sonyaellenmann.com
Smart kids should skip high school (2015)
https://www.sonyaellenmann.com/2015/09/why-skip-high-school.html
203 comments
> Looking back now I wish I had actually taken a year off before college, as opposed to skipping a grade in a hurry to get there, and I encourage every high school student and parent I know to think in these terms.
100% agreed. I took a year out to work in software before University. Despite being completely disregarded by employers, it changed my perspective on independence, time management, and the risk of not making the most of opportunities. It's one of the best life decisions that I've made.
100% agreed. I took a year out to work in software before University. Despite being completely disregarded by employers, it changed my perspective on independence, time management, and the risk of not making the most of opportunities. It's one of the best life decisions that I've made.
It would seem better to do as many hard, high investment (i.e. time and energy), high risk of failure but high reward things as young as possible while still having a societal protection blanket of "that's impressive for a high schooler". No one expects much from a high schooler so if your "exploration" (startup, project, etc.) hits a bump - you can recover quite easily and just re-join the mainstream. "Explorations" after graduation can look like unemployment to potential employer.
Also with today's plethora of online education available there's unlimited amount of options for exploration. In fact going deep application domain wise before college can be a great way to motivate deeper study of theory once in college. Imagine being a high schooler today mucking around with tensor flow apis. Once you get to college all those black magic random functions (i.e. predict(), fit()) you were calling in the Google tutorials will all of sudden make sense.
Also with today's plethora of online education available there's unlimited amount of options for exploration. In fact going deep application domain wise before college can be a great way to motivate deeper study of theory once in college. Imagine being a high schooler today mucking around with tensor flow apis. Once you get to college all those black magic random functions (i.e. predict(), fit()) you were calling in the Google tutorials will all of sudden make sense.
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I did something like that, but I never stopped. Software doesn't need a degree, and I realized I wasn't interested in the debt. We'll see how it turns out, but I'm enjoying making my own way so far.
I would implore some form of higher studies though. Not all college is a waste, and even within software, putting your focus towards a topic and doing a PhD is life changing in terms of giving you more structure. The world needs smart people to guide it in all directions. Too many of them are now being wasted moving money around and showing ads.
I focus heavily on continuing education, as schedule and energy allow.
Software, plumbing, and car mechanics don't need a degree. They are technician work.
However, if you can have a much more fun life if you have a deep understanding of things like signal processing, image processing, differential equations, control systems, dynamics, etc.
Those let you do things like building medical imaging systems, autonomous robots, or deep learning systems. They're much more intellectually fulfilling than just coding, which loses its charm after a bit. You're also not competing against low-cost coders, which isn't a problem in the current market, but economies are cyclical. When the next recession comes, having more specialized skills is more helpful.
These do require mentorship, guidance, and some form of study.
As much as coming into university straight out of high school is often a bad idea, so is skipping it altogether.
The key problem is these aren't skills you can pick up incrementally. They take years of focused study. For example, you can't learn control systems without diff. eq. which in turn requires calculus. There's little immediate reward to learning calculus and diff eq, and little way to know what's important without expert guidance.
However, if you can have a much more fun life if you have a deep understanding of things like signal processing, image processing, differential equations, control systems, dynamics, etc.
Those let you do things like building medical imaging systems, autonomous robots, or deep learning systems. They're much more intellectually fulfilling than just coding, which loses its charm after a bit. You're also not competing against low-cost coders, which isn't a problem in the current market, but economies are cyclical. When the next recession comes, having more specialized skills is more helpful.
These do require mentorship, guidance, and some form of study.
As much as coming into university straight out of high school is often a bad idea, so is skipping it altogether.
The key problem is these aren't skills you can pick up incrementally. They take years of focused study. For example, you can't learn control systems without diff. eq. which in turn requires calculus. There's little immediate reward to learning calculus and diff eq, and little way to know what's important without expert guidance.
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You assume I have interest in those deeper aspects, which I don't. I enjoy my work, but it's just a job to me. I stay up-to-date and develop my skills, but I have a life outside of work, and generally stay away from writing code in my other endeavors.
+1 to this, there are a large number of low cost opportunities for 16-22 year olds that become orders of magnitude more difficult and expensive later in life.
Notable examples include taking a year off to hike the AT or PCT. Volunteering in peace corps or americorps. Working in a different country, or working in a resort/tourism community.
Later in life taking such actions will put a major dent in your career ambitions and finances, but early in life it’a much easier to avoid the question “what were you doing between X and Y”
Notable examples include taking a year off to hike the AT or PCT. Volunteering in peace corps or americorps. Working in a different country, or working in a resort/tourism community.
Later in life taking such actions will put a major dent in your career ambitions and finances, but early in life it’a much easier to avoid the question “what were you doing between X and Y”
I skipped the last year of High School; I took (and passed) the California High School Profeciency exam as soon as a I could, but was convinced to stay one more year and they made the credits work to get me a degree. Then I did two years of Community College and got an AS before transferring to an out of state 4-year engineering college (where it took me three more years to get a BS, because the curriculum weren't aligned). Community College felt a lot nicer than high school, and the two years of college experience made it easier to manage living in the dorms and later with my not-yet spouse. Having almost all of my humanities already taken care of was nice too. Having a gap in hard Math classes wasn't great though; having swapped that information out, it was hard to page it back in.
I think it’s both true that most people do a lot of growing up at university and that it can make the experience worse if you are younger than everyone.
From a U.K. perspective one issue is that many student things generally assume everyone will be over 18 and therefore able to enter places that serve alcohol and only admit people over that age. Even if you don’t want to drink you may still be barred from participating. But this might not be such a big deal in the U.S.
If you’re only interested in your studies and you excel at them then maybe things don’t matter so much but I think for most people, university is mot so much about learning the subject you are reading as it is about being socialised into the middle class, and this is harder to do if you come in with one hand tied behind your back.
From a U.K. perspective one issue is that many student things generally assume everyone will be over 18 and therefore able to enter places that serve alcohol and only admit people over that age. Even if you don’t want to drink you may still be barred from participating. But this might not be such a big deal in the U.S.
If you’re only interested in your studies and you excel at them then maybe things don’t matter so much but I think for most people, university is mot so much about learning the subject you are reading as it is about being socialised into the middle class, and this is harder to do if you come in with one hand tied behind your back.
College in the US is usually about getting a piece of paper in order to be a nurse or teacher or accountant or social worker or civil servant. At many schools,, people show up for class and go home. Nobody cares what age you are and it is a service.
I think this is a fairly cynical, narrow take. There are a lot of schools and a lot of people in them doing more than a handfull of degrees.
I think the college experience in the US varies pretty widely depending on what sort of college you are at what you are studying, and your own attitude. An average state school, a small liberal arts college, an MIT/caltech, business school at Yale or Harvard. These will all be vastly different experiences.
And if you don't do one before college, ABSOLUTELY do one after if you're doing grad school, no matter what anyone tells you.
I'm going to guess that many (probably not most, but many) of us here come from a tradition where education is paramount and deviating from that without a clear plan is like deadly frightening to the parents et al.
I'm going to guess that many (probably not most, but many) of us here come from a tradition where education is paramount and deviating from that without a clear plan is like deadly frightening to the parents et al.
> deviating from that without a clear plan is like deadly frightening to the parents et al.
Sometimes it is because they co-signed 6 figures of student loans.
Sometimes it is because they co-signed 6 figures of student loans.
> come from a tradition where education is paramount and deviating from that without a clear plan is like deadly frightening to the parents et al.
Definitely true for me as I was reading this thread, so thank you for making this a bit more relatable in my mind (and those of others, I'm sure).
Definitely true for me as I was reading this thread, so thank you for making this a bit more relatable in my mind (and those of others, I'm sure).
Yeah, in my case it was like "okaaaay so you're gonna have a job?" Ended up being two, no "travel the world" at the time or anything like that, more the opposite...
I'm in my mid-40's now, but I swear to you I have never felt older in my life then that time nearly 20 years ago; After a completely awkward TGI Friday's dinner, I'm in my hotel room in Miami. Instead of being out visiting friends which I had planned weeks earlier, at the last minute the boss decides we should go over the powerpoint a one-hundred and SIXTH time.
The first day of grad school was DELICIOUS after that.
I'm in my mid-40's now, but I swear to you I have never felt older in my life then that time nearly 20 years ago; After a completely awkward TGI Friday's dinner, I'm in my hotel room in Miami. Instead of being out visiting friends which I had planned weeks earlier, at the last minute the boss decides we should go over the powerpoint a one-hundred and SIXTH time.
The first day of grad school was DELICIOUS after that.
So if you could go back in time would you take a gap year?
In general I think freshmen / sophomores don’t take enough advantages & don’t understand the professional implications of their time in college.
In general I think freshmen / sophomores don’t take enough advantages & don’t understand the professional implications of their time in college.
I skipped a year in elementary school and had a gap year (because I was in Israel I couldn't start university because I was supposed to do mandatory military service, and had a year to wait). Man oh man, did this year suck. I had no skills to manage myself with no routine, all my friends were a year older than me and started their military service. I worked for a few months, but then I just did nothing for what seemed like an eternity: I slept during the day, I was alone most of the time, internet was a couple years away so I didn't even have that, I honestly can't remember what I did but it was terrible.
This was how 2020 was for me. It was awful, and I never want to feel that way again.
I did have a plan for how to spend that time in a way that was meaningful, but COVID trashed it and I was left with nothing.
I did have a plan for how to spend that time in a way that was meaningful, but COVID trashed it and I was left with nothing.
Yes - actually I had just finished editing my post to say that. For me at least I think it would have made a major difference. You are absolutely correct - I still sometimes kick myself over stupid decisions I made as a freshman and sophomore.
Just to chime in with the other experience- due to a bout of mono, I had to repeat 7th grade. I was already young for the grade, and as we had just moved stateside, I was having trouble integrating socially.
The repeat year was the best thing that could have happened to me. I was finally with my age-peer group, was appropriately socially aware, and just had a better scholastic experience across the board for the rest of my early education. I completely agree that much of early education is simple life experience, and it does the academically-gifted students no favors to push speed at the expense of everything else.
The repeat year was the best thing that could have happened to me. I was finally with my age-peer group, was appropriately socially aware, and just had a better scholastic experience across the board for the rest of my early education. I completely agree that much of early education is simple life experience, and it does the academically-gifted students no favors to push speed at the expense of everything else.
If it helps, you probably would fuck up your freshman and/or sophmore year anyway. Growing like that is an important part of the college experience.
Think about starting college at 20, though.
The people I have met who went back to school later in life (e.g., some years of military service first) had it together in a lot of ways that aren't likely for an 18 year old.
* Managing adversity
* Deeply engaging with issues they care about
Now I understand the search for self-identity is important, and college _can_ be a place to develop that. There are other ways to develop that don't involve paying $$$ as you try to balance personal emotional and intellectual development.
I think the education received for money spent isn't as high at 18 as it would be a few years later.
College is wonderful for some, maybe even a lot of the posters here.
But honest question, for people who have done college and graduate school: how do the first 2 years of college & graduate school compare in terms of focus, intellectual reward, depth personal relationships? I'm not saying it's 100% better later in life (graduate school), but ... I would be very interested to hear peoples' takes on this.
The people I have met who went back to school later in life (e.g., some years of military service first) had it together in a lot of ways that aren't likely for an 18 year old.
* Managing adversity
* Deeply engaging with issues they care about
Now I understand the search for self-identity is important, and college _can_ be a place to develop that. There are other ways to develop that don't involve paying $$$ as you try to balance personal emotional and intellectual development.
I think the education received for money spent isn't as high at 18 as it would be a few years later.
College is wonderful for some, maybe even a lot of the posters here.
But honest question, for people who have done college and graduate school: how do the first 2 years of college & graduate school compare in terms of focus, intellectual reward, depth personal relationships? I'm not saying it's 100% better later in life (graduate school), but ... I would be very interested to hear peoples' takes on this.
The thing is, absent going into the military, there isn't really another system set up to help people become mature. A gap year works, if you can afford it. But unless you have a strong plan, it can accidentally move to a gap two years, and possibly never going back to school.
I would agree with you in general about a gap year before college- but mostly from the perspective of it's a great time in life to be responsibility-free and do something meaningful
I think everyone is immature/makes poor decisions/could have chosen better paths their first couple of years in college regardless of age of matriculation. The first time you live with little supervision, have to start thinking about a career, etc. is going to be rough regardless of whether you are 17 or 20 because it is all such a new experience
I think everyone is immature/makes poor decisions/could have chosen better paths their first couple of years in college regardless of age of matriculation. The first time you live with little supervision, have to start thinking about a career, etc. is going to be rough regardless of whether you are 17 or 20 because it is all such a new experience
I agree, but I suspect that there is a good chance that a long essay or a short book could provide a lot of that needed learning and growing up. I could contribute several paragraphs of what I wish someone had told me when I was in the first grade, fifth grade, eighth grade, a freshman in college, etc., told me about girls and women, love, home, and marriage, organizational behavior, the economy and careers, politics, etc.
Heh. I skipped eighth grade, was young for my class anyway with a late year birthday, and also went to MIT.
Yes, I was young for college but it’s not like college students as a whole are these mature individuals. Was probably for the best overall.
Honestly, MIT is probably a better place than most for individuals who are maybe a bit atypical relative to other places.
Yes, I was young for college but it’s not like college students as a whole are these mature individuals. Was probably for the best overall.
Honestly, MIT is probably a better place than most for individuals who are maybe a bit atypical relative to other places.
Increasingly, you can replace "is" with "was."
Over time, MIT's acceptance of diversity, intellectual and otherwise, has waned. Right now, it's the top university brand in the world. That's a tightrope political game to play, and MIT optimizes to it very well. It's been a slow process for many decades, but it's really accelerated recently.
I'm not sure what the better schools are now. I've heard good things about Georgia Tech.
We do need nerd camps and nerd schools still. The old MIT was awesome.
Over time, MIT's acceptance of diversity, intellectual and otherwise, has waned. Right now, it's the top university brand in the world. That's a tightrope political game to play, and MIT optimizes to it very well. It's been a slow process for many decades, but it's really accelerated recently.
I'm not sure what the better schools are now. I've heard good things about Georgia Tech.
We do need nerd camps and nerd schools still. The old MIT was awesome.
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> I wish I had actually taken a year off before college, as opposed to skipping a grade in a hurry to get there
I skipped eighth grade, and I feel the same way.
I skipped eighth grade, and I feel the same way.
Terrible advice.
I could have spent three years writing and reading and working on interesting projects, instead of enduring the sociocultural hell of high school.
That - right there- is exactly why this person and most others need to be in high school, so that you can learn how to deal with your peers once you're all past puberty and starting to sort yourselves by definitive skills, talents, and motivations while you still have enough pre-adult protections and guardians to let you make mistakes. Because learning the subtleties of adult interpersonal interactions is crucially important for success in work, romance, civic life, and adult friendships. Running away from all of that just because you are not mentally stimulated enough in math or art class is a pale excuse for not facing your social emotional deficits as a budding adult. Academic enrichment is MUCH easier to tack on than proper socialization from school.
I could have spent three years writing and reading and working on interesting projects, instead of enduring the sociocultural hell of high school.
That - right there- is exactly why this person and most others need to be in high school, so that you can learn how to deal with your peers once you're all past puberty and starting to sort yourselves by definitive skills, talents, and motivations while you still have enough pre-adult protections and guardians to let you make mistakes. Because learning the subtleties of adult interpersonal interactions is crucially important for success in work, romance, civic life, and adult friendships. Running away from all of that just because you are not mentally stimulated enough in math or art class is a pale excuse for not facing your social emotional deficits as a budding adult. Academic enrichment is MUCH easier to tack on than proper socialization from school.
What you're describing is wonderful in theory. In practice I'd be really interested in seeing the objective reality of these results.
My perspective is that a lot of the "subtle adult interpersonal interactions" people supposedly acquire through average public high school are actually damaging or traumatizing at worst, as kids have any sense of individuality and creativity wrung out of them, meanwhile many adults continue to behave like high schoolers for the rest of their life because of how catastrophic it has been to their personal development.
My perspective is that a lot of the "subtle adult interpersonal interactions" people supposedly acquire through average public high school are actually damaging or traumatizing at worst, as kids have any sense of individuality and creativity wrung out of them, meanwhile many adults continue to behave like high schoolers for the rest of their life because of how catastrophic it has been to their personal development.
Yeah -- my experience is kids who have unconventional experiences do better socially than the ones who go through conventional school.
Putting academics aside, high school is not optimized for socialization.
For many students, it's 5-7 hours a day of explicitly not socializing at all, with brief periods of maybe talking to your friends scattered around, mostly at lunch. Plus homework to stop you from socializing as much as you might like after school.
What socialization students do get from school tends to be extremely filtered by age and other factors like academic track. The median student isn't interacting with a diverse range of people- they're almost all within 1 year of age and often share the majority of their background. When you stack compulsory attendance and restrictions on top, it becomes an extremely warped microcosm that can easily breed horrible behavior. Unfortunately, when it gets bad, schools rarely have the ability to deal with it, and students have exceedingly little autonomy. For most students going through that, the 'lessons' learned will rarely carry over because adults simply aren't operating under the same rules or context, and one does not need practice in suffering.
This isn't the system you'd build if your goal was to spit out a well-socialized human.
It'd be far better to set aside a good chunk of hours a week for intentional socialization, preferably across a wide range of activities. Playing with your friends, helping tutor younger kids, apprenticing with adults in meaningful work, trying to work on self-driven projects with peers... all of these are hugely better socialization opportunities than what high school is for US students.
For many students, it's 5-7 hours a day of explicitly not socializing at all, with brief periods of maybe talking to your friends scattered around, mostly at lunch. Plus homework to stop you from socializing as much as you might like after school.
What socialization students do get from school tends to be extremely filtered by age and other factors like academic track. The median student isn't interacting with a diverse range of people- they're almost all within 1 year of age and often share the majority of their background. When you stack compulsory attendance and restrictions on top, it becomes an extremely warped microcosm that can easily breed horrible behavior. Unfortunately, when it gets bad, schools rarely have the ability to deal with it, and students have exceedingly little autonomy. For most students going through that, the 'lessons' learned will rarely carry over because adults simply aren't operating under the same rules or context, and one does not need practice in suffering.
This isn't the system you'd build if your goal was to spit out a well-socialized human.
It'd be far better to set aside a good chunk of hours a week for intentional socialization, preferably across a wide range of activities. Playing with your friends, helping tutor younger kids, apprenticing with adults in meaningful work, trying to work on self-driven projects with peers... all of these are hugely better socialization opportunities than what high school is for US students.
I dropped out in 10th grade to pursue freelance programming and don't regret it one bit.
> Running away from all of that just because you are not mentally stimulated enough in math or art class is a pale excuse for not facing your social emotional deficits as a budding adult.
I was being tormented by other students and no one cared. Same thing in middle school. I eventually figured just not going was the best option.
I'm not autistic. Never had any issues with authority or disciplinary actions. I just couldn't fit in at school.
> Running away from all of that just because you are not mentally stimulated enough in math or art class is a pale excuse for not facing your social emotional deficits as a budding adult.
I was being tormented by other students and no one cared. Same thing in middle school. I eventually figured just not going was the best option.
I'm not autistic. Never had any issues with authority or disciplinary actions. I just couldn't fit in at school.
I would need to be convinced that high school uniquely prepares one for the subtleties of adult interpersonal interactions. Until I see a strong argument one way or the other, I'm just as apt to believe that high school actively gives a false sense of the subtleties of adult interpersonal interactions. And as far me as an adult now, if I notice almost any similarity between an interpersonal interaction now and interpersonal interactions in high school, that's a huge red flag that this is probably not a mature and healthy interaction to take part in.
It's also kind of interesting that high school is basically the last time most people have to interact with anything like a random cross section of their peers. Maybe in big cities the public schools are more stratified by class and race, but in the small town I was from, basically everyone went to the same school. (Maybe some people were homeschooled, but I don't know how big a thing that was then.)
After high school, schools and workplaces tend to select for similar sorts of people.
After high school, schools and workplaces tend to select for similar sorts of people.
> Maybe in big cities the public schools are more stratified by class and race, but in the small town I was from, basically everyone went to the same school.
There are also private and magnet schools. You can end up spending most of your time in classes where the majority of students have a shot at Ivies.
There are also private and magnet schools. You can end up spending most of your time in classes where the majority of students have a shot at Ivies.
In college something wonderful happens: for the first time of your life you can sit in a classroom where everyone made the decision to attend*. Nobody is forced by law, or their legal guardians to be there.
I think the major problem with pre-college schooling, in retrospective, is being locked up in an environment with disruptive individuals that care very little about learning and who aren't motivated one bit. I recall sometimes half of a lecture would be spent on managing these individuals, with everyone else not learning one bit.
In theory you were supposed to be exposed to wide range of people and learn to socialize with this wide spectrum of humans. That, at least, was the humanist vision of High School. In practice, if you are among the smart, motivated kids at a large school you end up mostly interacting with the other kids taking AP classes. If you are at a smaller school, there's no such thing. You are stuck with everyone including those who don't care.
* I know it's not 100% true, and there are college students that are there for a plethora of reasons. But it's a tiny percentage.
I think the major problem with pre-college schooling, in retrospective, is being locked up in an environment with disruptive individuals that care very little about learning and who aren't motivated one bit. I recall sometimes half of a lecture would be spent on managing these individuals, with everyone else not learning one bit.
In theory you were supposed to be exposed to wide range of people and learn to socialize with this wide spectrum of humans. That, at least, was the humanist vision of High School. In practice, if you are among the smart, motivated kids at a large school you end up mostly interacting with the other kids taking AP classes. If you are at a smaller school, there's no such thing. You are stuck with everyone including those who don't care.
* I know it's not 100% true, and there are college students that are there for a plethora of reasons. But it's a tiny percentage.
This hagiography of high school life is a frank denial of reality. I cannot find a single thing I agree with about it, and interacting with immature and violent people of the same age had very, very little benefit to me or most of the people in my high school.
I learned a lot more from the "Academic enriched" people in CEGEP than I did from the budding sociopaths and jailbirds in my high school.
I learned a lot more from the "Academic enriched" people in CEGEP than I did from the budding sociopaths and jailbirds in my high school.
Would you prevent the next Einstein from flourishing simply because you believe he or she should endure a random socialization process?
I’m not sure most people will end up as good internet essay writers too..
Fun way to make this argument is to use College/University instead of highschool and then, if people more or less agree on that, also suggest Highschool. You can keep moving down the stack. At some point, people start to be concerned about socialization, which is a very fair concern. I did not learn anything in highschool (or college) but I made friends that I have to this day and learned how to be a human in a world of other humans. Hard to untangle things after the fact but I went straight into the working world after highschool and I am really, really glad that I ended up eventually going to college solely because of the people I met there and the ways they challenged me to grow and become a better person.
edit: there are obviously ways to get this socialization without being in a traditional, horrible, highschool environment. I do not know if I would homeschool my kids or not!
edit: there are obviously ways to get this socialization without being in a traditional, horrible, highschool environment. I do not know if I would homeschool my kids or not!
Another way to drill down into the question is to start with smart kids and then, if people more or less agree with that, to talk about all kids.
Think about it: if smart kids benefit from a more personalized, stimulating, and nurturing approach to education, then this is even more true for the kids who are less intelligent. Why do we assume that the kids who are academically behind are well served by an apathetic, inflexible, impersonal system?
For example, consider very small classes taught by highly trained, highly motivated, highly paid teachers - but instead of having this be the solution for an elite cohort of "smart" kids, let this be the solution for all kids.
Think about it: if smart kids benefit from a more personalized, stimulating, and nurturing approach to education, then this is even more true for the kids who are less intelligent. Why do we assume that the kids who are academically behind are well served by an apathetic, inflexible, impersonal system?
For example, consider very small classes taught by highly trained, highly motivated, highly paid teachers - but instead of having this be the solution for an elite cohort of "smart" kids, let this be the solution for all kids.
> Why do we assume that the kids who are academically behind are well served by an apathetic, inflexible, impersonal system?
We don't assume that, society just isn't willing to pay for more expensive more personalized education for the masses.
We don't assume that, society just isn't willing to pay for more expensive more personalized education for the masses.
> then this is even more true for the kids who are less intelligent
Disagree. Kids who are smarter can take better advantage of improved education. I think diminishing returns would quickly kick in for most kids.
Disagree. Kids who are smarter can take better advantage of improved education. I think diminishing returns would quickly kick in for most kids.
> I did not learn anything in highschool (or college)
Is this really the case or do you just not remember specific things you learned or even abstract concepts around learning itself that are hard to quantify?
Is this really the case or do you just not remember specific things you learned or even abstract concepts around learning itself that are hard to quantify?
I'd charitably interpret this as something like, "I did not learn anything useful or interesting in school that I did not learn elsewhere first or more effectively".
I'd endorse that claim, for the most part. I definitely learned all kinds of things that are not useful nor interesting, and then promptly discarded them. Maybe 2 or 3 isolated things in university passed the above criteria for me, and those were only possible because of the greater freedom offered in universities over K-12.
The times where I actually learned things, including abstract metalearning, were always when I was trying to do difficult things independently from school. School was just taking time away from that. It's important to keep in mind that the alternative to the current education system isn't 'child sits in a box devoid of all sensory input'- there are tons of possibilities.
I'd endorse that claim, for the most part. I definitely learned all kinds of things that are not useful nor interesting, and then promptly discarded them. Maybe 2 or 3 isolated things in university passed the above criteria for me, and those were only possible because of the greater freedom offered in universities over K-12.
The times where I actually learned things, including abstract metalearning, were always when I was trying to do difficult things independently from school. School was just taking time away from that. It's important to keep in mind that the alternative to the current education system isn't 'child sits in a box devoid of all sensory input'- there are tons of possibilities.
Not the parent, but I really couldn’t say.
I personally spent most high school classes either sleeping or playing on my laptop, and often literally learning about what we had been seeing in class when reading the exam's title. Often doing things like completing the math exams based on recollections from middle school. And yet got by, year after year, as well as anyone else.
I then spent over a decade having a hard time figuring out how to actually take and keep any kind of notes, study and how to learn things that didn’t just "come to me" on their own.
Quite a weird experience.
Looking back, I can only wish it had been different. But that’s pointless.
I personally spent most high school classes either sleeping or playing on my laptop, and often literally learning about what we had been seeing in class when reading the exam's title. Often doing things like completing the math exams based on recollections from middle school. And yet got by, year after year, as well as anyone else.
I then spent over a decade having a hard time figuring out how to actually take and keep any kind of notes, study and how to learn things that didn’t just "come to me" on their own.
Quite a weird experience.
Looking back, I can only wish it had been different. But that’s pointless.
I don't know, how would I?
If you don't know whether you learned anything, you shouldn't state definitively "I did not learn anything in highschool (or college)"
Do you know math? Did you rediscover it, learn it from materials or individuals outside of school, or learn it in school?
Repeat that exercise with other areas of knowledge.
Repeat that exercise with other areas of knowledge.
Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/519/
I’m wondering if there is a way to create some sort of less structured alternative to the government education system. I think socializing with people of different classes, beliefs and abilities is necessary, and I would probably not send my kind to some kind of system where he would only meet other high IQ peers, but the gov education is >95% wasted time. Perhaps a combination of homeschooling + mandatory sports team participation + some artsy stuff?
There's pros and cons to any style of teaching, but the Montessori method has some of what you're looking for. Specifically, it allows students to move as fast or slow as they want in any particular subject area.
I went to a Montessori school for a year in middle school, and I remember being in a class with 5th graders doing math at the 9th grade level. I also remember a few kids in 5th grade doing math at a 4th grade level. The key was that the teachers could teach their subject at all of those levels.
I feel like some of this could be implemented in a less structured educational system. Being able to move at varying different paces while still socializing with peers of the same age is a good combination. I would add a little more structure than Montessori schools though, to make sure that students are moving at least at a baseline pace. It also takes some scheduling work to make sure that teachers aren't teaching an hour lesson to one student at a time.
I went to a Montessori school for a year in middle school, and I remember being in a class with 5th graders doing math at the 9th grade level. I also remember a few kids in 5th grade doing math at a 4th grade level. The key was that the teachers could teach their subject at all of those levels.
I feel like some of this could be implemented in a less structured educational system. Being able to move at varying different paces while still socializing with peers of the same age is a good combination. I would add a little more structure than Montessori schools though, to make sure that students are moving at least at a baseline pace. It also takes some scheduling work to make sure that teachers aren't teaching an hour lesson to one student at a time.
Interesting, I’m from Eastern Europe so never heard about this system. Sounds like a good alternative to public schools or boarding schools for sure.
Sudbury schools are even more unstructured, but unfortunately nowhere near as common as Montessori schools.
> I did not learn anything in highschool (or college)
That's on the student; in college, where you can pick your classes and course of study, it's on the student completely. But regardless, I was told: 'Don't blame the professor or the class or the book or the weather; it's your job to learn.' Good preparation for professional life too.
That's on the student; in college, where you can pick your classes and course of study, it's on the student completely. But regardless, I was told: 'Don't blame the professor or the class or the book or the weather; it's your job to learn.' Good preparation for professional life too.
I think this can be true to an extent. However, as a current college student I have been required to take courses to advance in my degree program that have been scoped entirely within things I already knew.
For example there was a course that almost entirely covered collaborative development and some regex, when I already had enough regex knowledge and was actively working as a software engineer, doing collaborative development all day every day.
There are definitely some areas where you have to make an effort to learn- and I do. But so far in my computer science degree (I'm taking third-year courses right now), all I've really learned is C++, but that's really not much considering I taught most of it to myself before my first term since I tested out of the entry-level courses.
For example there was a course that almost entirely covered collaborative development and some regex, when I already had enough regex knowledge and was actively working as a software engineer, doing collaborative development all day every day.
There are definitely some areas where you have to make an effort to learn- and I do. But so far in my computer science degree (I'm taking third-year courses right now), all I've really learned is C++, but that's really not much considering I taught most of it to myself before my first term since I tested out of the entry-level courses.
Then study different things, arrange something with the professors, arrange independent study or an independent degree program. It's up to the student.
I did this. Let me tell you my experience.
I grew up in the outskirts of LA where there is a mix of farmland and people willing to drive a long way into LA. My family moved there because of the military and i had previously been in a "good" school, but this area was more than 50% the children of farm workers and they had really been screwed by fate. Most didn't speak English and the school system was constantly struggling to get them to learn enough English so they could understand the other subjects.
Anyway, by junior high, I had worked out a deal with my school that I could take some classes at the local community college and not take them at junior high. So rather than take Algebra I or whatever I would take a math class at the college. Well... by the end of 8th grade I had taken the first two calculus semesters.
When transferring to college I should have gone to one of two particularly bad high schools and it make things worse, the high schools were not going to allow me to take any college classes. I would start in high school at algebra II.
So I dropped out. At the time in California, you were able to select a community college as your high school. This is sadly no longer the case. I took all the classes I needed to fill in my general education requirements and took STEM classes I would need to transfer to a CSU or UC school. I didn't take things too seriously. I took whatever classes looked interesting including SCUBA, TV production and some music classes. I finished with everything needed to transfer at 16 and transferred to Calpoly. I finished with my BS in Chemistry at 19. Took a year off because I didn't know what I wanted to do. Worked at a winery as an analytical chemist which was loads of fun. After a year there, I decided I needed a PhD if I wanted to do research and did that at Caltech.
Personally, I believe this worked out fine for me. The people at the community college especially in STEM classes were great. I had and made friends along the way. Going to high school would have been a step down and a step back for me, but I don't think skipping high school is for everyone.
I grew up in the outskirts of LA where there is a mix of farmland and people willing to drive a long way into LA. My family moved there because of the military and i had previously been in a "good" school, but this area was more than 50% the children of farm workers and they had really been screwed by fate. Most didn't speak English and the school system was constantly struggling to get them to learn enough English so they could understand the other subjects.
Anyway, by junior high, I had worked out a deal with my school that I could take some classes at the local community college and not take them at junior high. So rather than take Algebra I or whatever I would take a math class at the college. Well... by the end of 8th grade I had taken the first two calculus semesters.
When transferring to college I should have gone to one of two particularly bad high schools and it make things worse, the high schools were not going to allow me to take any college classes. I would start in high school at algebra II.
So I dropped out. At the time in California, you were able to select a community college as your high school. This is sadly no longer the case. I took all the classes I needed to fill in my general education requirements and took STEM classes I would need to transfer to a CSU or UC school. I didn't take things too seriously. I took whatever classes looked interesting including SCUBA, TV production and some music classes. I finished with everything needed to transfer at 16 and transferred to Calpoly. I finished with my BS in Chemistry at 19. Took a year off because I didn't know what I wanted to do. Worked at a winery as an analytical chemist which was loads of fun. After a year there, I decided I needed a PhD if I wanted to do research and did that at Caltech.
Personally, I believe this worked out fine for me. The people at the community college especially in STEM classes were great. I had and made friends along the way. Going to high school would have been a step down and a step back for me, but I don't think skipping high school is for everyone.
Did essentially the same thing - started community college during 8th grade, got enough credits to transfer, and opted out of high school entirely. I always wonder if it really was a good decision overall, though - I wonder if maybe I had gone the “traditional” route if I might have gone to a better four-year school and had a higher GPA. All in all, I’ve done OK, but I always wonder.
Edit: so it would appear that neither of us actually read the article before commenting…
Edit: so it would appear that neither of us actually read the article before commenting…
>At the time in California, you were able to select a community college as your high school.
Seriously, that's brilliant. Was there some local school apparatchik that made sure that your course picks were reasonable?
Seriously, that's brilliant. Was there some local school apparatchik that made sure that your course picks were reasonable?
By selecting the community college, I was just like any other student. I just had a regular counselor who made sure that I was picking at least 12 units that went toward my different GE categories or toward my intended major(originally EE, but switched to chemistry). Otherwise I was free to choose anything I wanted and did choose a lot of classes that didn't exactly fit with my plan, but were interesting to me.
I just think that's such a clever idea. It doesn't take a genius to go to JC when you're 15 years old and a lot of high school bullshit disappears.
It's the sort of system that works only so long as not too many people use it. If a junior college was 1/2 high school aged students, it would become, well, high school (to the cost of the other students).
It's the sort of system that works only so long as not too many people use it. If a junior college was 1/2 high school aged students, it would become, well, high school (to the cost of the other students).
I totally understand that sentiment. I agree people don't need to be particularly smart to do it too. I started with math classes that would normally be considered remedial and it was amazing. It let me zoom through what would be normal high school level math in about a year.
But too many people doing it would just turn it into High School 2.0 or worse if it turned into another competition among the smart high school kids.
But too many people doing it would just turn it into High School 2.0 or worse if it turned into another competition among the smart high school kids.
> At the time in California, you were able to select a community college as your high school.
I mean, at this point why not just take the GED or CHSPE and go straight to community college?
I mean, at this point why not just take the GED or CHSPE and go straight to community college?
You can't take a GED in California until you are 18. I didn't bother getting one until the pandemic because it mostly doesn't matter. I just finally went and did the tests so that I wouldn't have an awkward blank spot on certain funding applications.
My kids go to what are considered “very good” schools.
I have an 11 year old and a 13 year old and it seems to me school is a) about becoming a standardised social human cog and b) the school passing off whatever is the current vague social fashion (resilience, leadership, whatever) as useful learning. Meanwhile the teachers spend a huge amount of effort to avoid teaching anything that might actually be useful. I don’t blame them - They suffered the same terrible education and are unqualified to teach anything except what they were taught so the cycle is self-reinforcing.
Any actual learning seems incidental or is left the kids to find out for themselves through online programs (eg for maths/spelling) or personal research.
I think school as we know it is becoming a dead end for genuinely useful learning, and for the masses it is essentially just something to keep young people busy so they don’t roam the streets and cause trouble.
Sadly the first step in solving a problem is recognising it exists in the first place, but the question of why we continue with such a broken educational model doesn’t seem to trouble anyone - if the other parents are anything to go by anyway. They seem to lap up the schools’ endless marketing push designed to ensure nobody questions anything.
I have an 11 year old and a 13 year old and it seems to me school is a) about becoming a standardised social human cog and b) the school passing off whatever is the current vague social fashion (resilience, leadership, whatever) as useful learning. Meanwhile the teachers spend a huge amount of effort to avoid teaching anything that might actually be useful. I don’t blame them - They suffered the same terrible education and are unqualified to teach anything except what they were taught so the cycle is self-reinforcing.
Any actual learning seems incidental or is left the kids to find out for themselves through online programs (eg for maths/spelling) or personal research.
I think school as we know it is becoming a dead end for genuinely useful learning, and for the masses it is essentially just something to keep young people busy so they don’t roam the streets and cause trouble.
Sadly the first step in solving a problem is recognising it exists in the first place, but the question of why we continue with such a broken educational model doesn’t seem to trouble anyone - if the other parents are anything to go by anyway. They seem to lap up the schools’ endless marketing push designed to ensure nobody questions anything.
You may want to find actually good schools. My son goes to a "very good" school and I'm always amazed at how much they fit in each day. Could he do more if he focused and studied by himself? Maybe. But I've also seen through home-schooling that left to his own devices he'll just write Roblox games (which are educational -- but they probably shouldn't be the only thing you do).
Find a better school that will push your children. They do exist.
Find a better school that will push your children. They do exist.
My kids attended a "very good" school. It was a crap shoot. There was a large population of kids who were children of professors and doctors. Some kids did very well, others fell through the cracks. There's only so much you can control through selection of a school, and other factors, and then it's a crap shoot.
Possibly the only predicting factor I was able to discern is that highly disciplined, self motivated parents tend to have highly disciplined, self motivated kids. People in professions that select for those traits will have "successful" kids.
One thing I noticed is that I had vastly more spare time as a kid -- enough that I was able to play music while also teaching myself electronics and programming. On the other hand my school paid very little attention to writing, and I think my kids got a lot better preparation in both writing and critical thinking.
Possibly the only predicting factor I was able to discern is that highly disciplined, self motivated parents tend to have highly disciplined, self motivated kids. People in professions that select for those traits will have "successful" kids.
One thing I noticed is that I had vastly more spare time as a kid -- enough that I was able to play music while also teaching myself electronics and programming. On the other hand my school paid very little attention to writing, and I think my kids got a lot better preparation in both writing and critical thinking.
I realize this advice may be appropriate for some people, but speaking personally as a parent who is both lucky enough and financially fortunate enough to send both of my girls to a private school, I think it's misguided for them. The school they go through is K-12, diverse, and the high school portion of it is pretty amazing. I'm personal friends with several of the teachers and I can say with all honesty that the classes they teach are easily the equal of the most interesting college courses I took at a very well regarded university. Obviously I haven't sampled every single class, and I'm sure there are some duds, but I've sampled enough to feel like I have a pretty good feel for it. It would be a huge mistake for my kids to forego the opportunity to learn more about the world with those teachers.
What would happen if that kind of education was available to everyone?
What would happen if world-lead expert personal tuition was available to everyone? (Obviously impractical, but let's pretend, as a thought experiment.)
To what extent are we standing our own feet as a species by prioritising hierarchy and economic discrimination over free access to the best possible education for everyone?
Especially for those who want it and can benefit from it?
What would happen if world-lead expert personal tuition was available to everyone? (Obviously impractical, but let's pretend, as a thought experiment.)
To what extent are we standing our own feet as a species by prioritising hierarchy and economic discrimination over free access to the best possible education for everyone?
Especially for those who want it and can benefit from it?
Teaching ability isn't evenly distributed, and teaching doesn't seem to scale up to even the city scale, much less national or global. I'd love for everyone to be able to take Environmental Science from Mr V, but he's only one teacher.
A start would be to (mostly) privatize primary education. Every revolution in mass production and delivery of goods and services that used to be the exclusive province of the rich was generated by free enterprise.
Not everything is improved by adding a profit motive. Privately run prisons are not exactly renowned for reducing recidivism.
That might work if you can figure out a way to fund private schools proportionally to the quality of the education they provide, but I'm skeptical there's any straightforward way to do that. Also, the portion of money that goes to shareholders is money that isn't spent on education.
Governments can be inefficient, but part of the reason for the inefficiency is that they have to provide the same service to everyone and that's hard. They can't cherry-pick their customers.
There may be new educational funding models we should be looking at. Maybe a lot of educational YouTube videos should be directly funded by government grants, and ad-free video hosting provided by government infrastructure if they want it.
Governments can be inefficient, but part of the reason for the inefficiency is that they have to provide the same service to everyone and that's hard. They can't cherry-pick their customers.
There may be new educational funding models we should be looking at. Maybe a lot of educational YouTube videos should be directly funded by government grants, and ad-free video hosting provided by government infrastructure if they want it.
private schools are generally set up as nonprofits. "shareholders" are not really a concern, though sometimes you end up with unreasonably high admin salaries.
except that education is not only a service, but also a place to learn social skills.
Also, i highly doubt your claim, considering that many inventions where made by public universities funded by states around the world, or even state controlled economies with no free market.
Invention != mass production and commercialization
> the classes they teach are easily the equal of the most interesting college courses I took at a very well regarded university
If they can handle this, then they could take college level classes and get high school credit and college credit at the same time.
I went to an alternative high school that met on a community college campus and had 50% of the requirements for HS graduation for junior and senior year served by taking college courses. I was only able to get about half a year of college credit this way, but I was able to get half a year head start on college. In hindsight, I would have liked to start that process a year earlier and skipped as much HS as I could. I don't think that path is for everyone, but if you're capable and motivated I recommend exploring alternative pathways for reducing the traditional HS experience in favor of more profitable uses of time & talent.
If they can handle this, then they could take college level classes and get high school credit and college credit at the same time.
I went to an alternative high school that met on a community college campus and had 50% of the requirements for HS graduation for junior and senior year served by taking college courses. I was only able to get about half a year of college credit this way, but I was able to get half a year head start on college. In hindsight, I would have liked to start that process a year earlier and skipped as much HS as I could. I don't think that path is for everyone, but if you're capable and motivated I recommend exploring alternative pathways for reducing the traditional HS experience in favor of more profitable uses of time & talent.
I don't think college credits are the point, really. The general rule of thumb for people coming out of this school is that they feel like their first or possibly even second year of college is significantly less challenging than their last two years of high school. But as a result they can do extra-curriculars, do independent studies, smell the flowers a bit, etc. That doesn't seem like a bad thing in my view.
I took college courses during high school. I had enough credits to finish my bachelor degree within a year after finishing school
I thought I was skipping high school, but in reality I was actually skipping college. It is really bad.
I thought I was skipping high school, but in reality I was actually skipping college. It is really bad.
It sounds like the author just went to a lousy high school. I was fortunate enough to go to a private school (my tuition was waived because my mother was a teacher there) where I took a ton of APs in small classes. Compare that to the large gen-ed courses at college where the pace was glacial and the tests were multiple choice.
I think college and high school should be better optimized for each other. In high school, it's perfectly fine if you don't have a specialization. You don't even really have to decide your major until the 2nd year of college.
This creates a lot of wasted time for people who do know what they want to do. The first year of my CS education was learning stuff I already knew from High School. I was sitting next to people who had never taken CS before, and this was their first introduction. I think it actually should be required to enter with a major in mind, and have completed coursework done towards it in high school. Not every high school could teach specialized courses, but there is a lot of low-hanging fruit that would be pretty easy. Ex. Physics for engineering, Linear Algebra for CS majors, Bio & Chemistry, etc. High schools can teach these things pretty consistently, we shouldn't need to take such basic classes in college.
High school should cover more advanced material, and college should cover less breadth-wise and start off more advanced. I shouldn't be taking calculus or basic writing in college as a CS major.
This creates a lot of wasted time for people who do know what they want to do. The first year of my CS education was learning stuff I already knew from High School. I was sitting next to people who had never taken CS before, and this was their first introduction. I think it actually should be required to enter with a major in mind, and have completed coursework done towards it in high school. Not every high school could teach specialized courses, but there is a lot of low-hanging fruit that would be pretty easy. Ex. Physics for engineering, Linear Algebra for CS majors, Bio & Chemistry, etc. High schools can teach these things pretty consistently, we shouldn't need to take such basic classes in college.
High school should cover more advanced material, and college should cover less breadth-wise and start off more advanced. I shouldn't be taking calculus or basic writing in college as a CS major.
Many people would argue the opposite, the high school is already far too focused on college preparation and a lot of people are just not interested in college. A generation or two ago there were a lot of trade classes in high school, and it was possible to come out of high school with a “specialization” in some thing like pipe fitting or welding they were walking right into a local industrial career. Now that’s all gone for the sake of college prep, and kids who would be great pipe fitters end up as burger flippers. I once has a conversation with the (then) Mayor of Texas City, Texas who lamented this exact change and said the city had a big program to recruit and visa sponsor pipe fitters out of Vietnam to sustain the local industries because the local schools no longer taught the needed skills. These were apparently great middle class jobs with high wages and benefits (although I’m taking him at his word, I don’t know if it’s true).
My personal take is that high school tries to be a one size fits all model, which actually just makes it a waste of time for everyone. It would be a big improvement if we could let people branch out a lot more starting around age 14 or so. Then perhaps it would make sense, if you knew you wanted to do computer science, you could go to a CS oriented high school and in two years do all the pre-requisite work for a CS bachelors degree and head off to college, or something like that.
Mainly though, I think this doesn’t happen because most people need the high school to be in their neighborhood or close by. Kids can’t drive until they’re 16, And even then they are terrible drivers and probably shouldn’t be driving until they’re 18 or 21. But this is America and if you can’t drive you really can’t be an adult, so there’s no way that you can go to the specialty school 45 minutes away. And I don’t think very many parents want to send their young teenage children away to boarding school.
My personal take is that high school tries to be a one size fits all model, which actually just makes it a waste of time for everyone. It would be a big improvement if we could let people branch out a lot more starting around age 14 or so. Then perhaps it would make sense, if you knew you wanted to do computer science, you could go to a CS oriented high school and in two years do all the pre-requisite work for a CS bachelors degree and head off to college, or something like that.
Mainly though, I think this doesn’t happen because most people need the high school to be in their neighborhood or close by. Kids can’t drive until they’re 16, And even then they are terrible drivers and probably shouldn’t be driving until they’re 18 or 21. But this is America and if you can’t drive you really can’t be an adult, so there’s no way that you can go to the specialty school 45 minutes away. And I don’t think very many parents want to send their young teenage children away to boarding school.
that's true, I was coming at it from a 'going to college' perspective, when in reality a lot of kids don't end up going to college and don't need all that. It's a tough problem, and I want kids who don't want/need to attend college to spend their time in a useful way as well.
And having a local high school is very important as well, It's definitely not practical to send kids on an hour commute.
The system the UK has with grammar schools is pretty interesting, by separating kids around age 11, basically it's a more advanced public school. Although that system gets some hate as well. I think it separates kids a little too young, before they can really understand what's going on.
And having a local high school is very important as well, It's definitely not practical to send kids on an hour commute.
The system the UK has with grammar schools is pretty interesting, by separating kids around age 11, basically it's a more advanced public school. Although that system gets some hate as well. I think it separates kids a little too young, before they can really understand what's going on.
isn't this what AP courses are, more or less? if you get a high score on the BC calc exam, you can usually skip straight to multivariable or diff eq.
I don't think this would work well on a larger scale. deciding your college major is one of those big life decisions. it's hard enough for most people to make a good choice by the end of their sophomore year, let alone at age sixteen in highschool.
with writing in particular, there is a reason most schools require some sort of freshman writing seminar, and it isn't because high schools don't prioritize writing. in my experience at least, high schools spend a lot of time on writing skills, but still fail to matriculate many students who can meet expectations for college-level writing.
I don't think this would work well on a larger scale. deciding your college major is one of those big life decisions. it's hard enough for most people to make a good choice by the end of their sophomore year, let alone at age sixteen in highschool.
with writing in particular, there is a reason most schools require some sort of freshman writing seminar, and it isn't because high schools don't prioritize writing. in my experience at least, high schools spend a lot of time on writing skills, but still fail to matriculate many students who can meet expectations for college-level writing.
Towards the end of high school, I started a fairly profitable startup, and went on to do that for a few more years after in lieu of college. At the time, I really struggled with my parents desire to keep me in school and my own desire to drop out and get a GED. They won out. And actually, I’m glad they did. Even though my grades were very poor and I never did homework, I really do think I came out of high school better than I would have been with only a GED.
Now, 6 years out of high school, I attend a community college part-time to work on a bachelors degree. Funny how I completely discounted higher education just a few years ago.
Now, 6 years out of high school, I attend a community college part-time to work on a bachelors degree. Funny how I completely discounted higher education just a few years ago.
Fascinating story. How did the startup go?
My partner and I grew apart and we shut it down in 2018. Funded everything since then.
>> enduring the sociocultural hell of high school
It's an important part of life and becoming an adult in so many ways and skipping it deprives the child of the opportunity for the good and bad experiences that humans need to experience to become balanced adults.
Life has bad bits for everyone. Chopping out high school preemptively is not only not a solution but is actively detrimental.
It's an important part of life and becoming an adult in so many ways and skipping it deprives the child of the opportunity for the good and bad experiences that humans need to experience to become balanced adults.
Life has bad bits for everyone. Chopping out high school preemptively is not only not a solution but is actively detrimental.
Nothing about high school is relevant to the real world. At no other point in your life are you in forced proximity with random people within your age cohort, who have no responsibilities outside of school work and maximizing their social status. This is an unnatural environment and nothing about it is necessary to becoming a functioning adult. The benefits that high school does bring to social development is not exclusive to high school. But it brings so many detrimental experiences as to be a net negative in many cases.
>Nothing about high school is relevant to the real world.
I wouldn't say "nothing." Going to school 5 days a week mimics a workweek, even if the timing is off. Being with random people of your age group in close proximity is a little extreme, but it has some similarities to working in an office with a random assortment of personalities. Having tasks assigned to you that you then have to complete isn't exactly how workplaces function, but having a baseline ability to complete work that isn't your favorite is a valuable skill.
Now, all of these things are taken to the extreme in high school and that should be adjusted. However, saying that none of high school is relevant is a stretch.
I wouldn't say "nothing." Going to school 5 days a week mimics a workweek, even if the timing is off. Being with random people of your age group in close proximity is a little extreme, but it has some similarities to working in an office with a random assortment of personalities. Having tasks assigned to you that you then have to complete isn't exactly how workplaces function, but having a baseline ability to complete work that isn't your favorite is a valuable skill.
Now, all of these things are taken to the extreme in high school and that should be adjusted. However, saying that none of high school is relevant is a stretch.
> who have no responsibilities outside of school work and maximizing their social status.
I suppose this might be true in middle-class, suburban areas; but where I grew up, and I imagine in similar places elsewhere, there were plenty of working teenagers who held responsibility for their family's well-being. They worked in the family corner store/restaurant/shop/farm during the weekends and evenings. Others provided primary care for family members; their younger siblings or infirm adults.
I suppose this might be true in middle-class, suburban areas; but where I grew up, and I imagine in similar places elsewhere, there were plenty of working teenagers who held responsibility for their family's well-being. They worked in the family corner store/restaurant/shop/farm during the weekends and evenings. Others provided primary care for family members; their younger siblings or infirm adults.
Let's certainly not make it more like the internet, where you can set things up so you only see those who agree with you already and disdain everyone else without risk of confrontation.
> At no other point in your life are you in forced proximity with random people within your age cohort
Maybe this is a shortcoming of our modern world outside of school, rather than a shortcoming of schools. I rather think it's a point in public school's favor that students attend the same classes, do the same work, and are judged according to the same standards as their peers regardless if their parents are well-off, middle-class, or poor. (That's the ideal, anyways. There are always exceptions.)
Having exposure to a wide swath of humanity at a young age is, I think, quite valuable. It's easier to hate people you've never met.
Maybe this is a shortcoming of our modern world outside of school, rather than a shortcoming of schools. I rather think it's a point in public school's favor that students attend the same classes, do the same work, and are judged according to the same standards as their peers regardless if their parents are well-off, middle-class, or poor. (That's the ideal, anyways. There are always exceptions.)
Having exposure to a wide swath of humanity at a young age is, I think, quite valuable. It's easier to hate people you've never met.
I'd be interested in what you describe as detrimental experiences and why they potentially weren't net positive in ways that you might not immediately recognize
Specifically the forced proximity with people who may bully you, or encourage damaging or anti-social behavior, as well as the environment where social status, and the avenues available to gain it as a high school student, is the end-all of your existence.
How many bad habits are learned in high school, from catty behavior, to acting out for attention, to being physically dominant, to spending money on flashy gear, to gain status? How many environments outside of high school do these behaviors result in meaningful, lasting status gains? Not many, at least none that can be considered healthy environments. If the goal of high school is to prepare kids for adulthood, they don't do a good job of it.
Granted, not every school is like this and not everyone has these experiences. But putting teens in a social pressure-cooker among their age cohort will result in some very unnatural local optimums for behavior.
How many bad habits are learned in high school, from catty behavior, to acting out for attention, to being physically dominant, to spending money on flashy gear, to gain status? How many environments outside of high school do these behaviors result in meaningful, lasting status gains? Not many, at least none that can be considered healthy environments. If the goal of high school is to prepare kids for adulthood, they don't do a good job of it.
Granted, not every school is like this and not everyone has these experiences. But putting teens in a social pressure-cooker among their age cohort will result in some very unnatural local optimums for behavior.
> Specifically the forced proximity with people who may bully you, or encourage damaging or anti-social behavior, as well as the environment where social status, and the avenues available to gain it as a high school student, is the end-all of your existence.
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How is that different than an office?
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How is that different than an office?
While I am not and won't dismiss your personal experiences with high school, but I think there is value in that pressure cooker environment, even if unpleasant. College and the workforce/academia is rife with similar bad habits that I can see myself not being prepared for if I hadn't had a dose of the petty viciousness (albeit with somewhat less consequence in the long term). It's one thing to be emotionally abused by some catty behavior in a setting that is less likely to screw your life over or at least gives you a chance of redemption post hs. Than to find out that even worse cattiness exists within your PhD program and now you're royally screwed over with it becoming harder and harder to get a fresh start.
Getting slammed into lockers, having people steal your notebooks, having half your friends spontaneously turn on you...
I'm reading into your comment a little bit and projecting my own thoughts of "these things might have been character-building." That might be true, but for some they could also end up causing PTSD/similar things, difficultly trusting people, severe low-self-confidence, etc.
I'm reading into your comment a little bit and projecting my own thoughts of "these things might have been character-building." That might be true, but for some they could also end up causing PTSD/similar things, difficultly trusting people, severe low-self-confidence, etc.
Anything can 'potentially be net positive in ways you might not immediately recognize'. There is literally no event that description does not apply to.
In many cases the 'negative experiences' are daily abuse.
I myself had a horrible and painful time in high school, but listening to people of various backgrounds I concluded it's pretty much hit or miss. I can't generalize from my negative experience, but you can't generalize from your positive one either.
In many cases the 'negative experiences' are daily abuse.
I myself had a horrible and painful time in high school, but listening to people of various backgrounds I concluded it's pretty much hit or miss. I can't generalize from my negative experience, but you can't generalize from your positive one either.
Adult work & social life has practically nothing in common with high school. Neither does college. The only times any of that looks even a little like high school is when something's gone very wrong.
From about 6th or 7th grade through graduation, school is a weird environment all its own.
From about 6th or 7th grade through graduation, school is a weird environment all its own.
> Adult work & social life has practically nothing in common with high school.
Some might say it is similar to being in prison though…
At least for part of high school that’s what it felt like at times for me. The biggest issue being the forced labour - sorry, I mean “homework” - of which the burden was substantial and the benefits not at all clear.
At the time I remember being very depressed that even when I was at home and away from the school that I often didn’t enjoy, instead of indulging in my hobbies (which, coincidentally, is how I learnt practically all of the specialised skills that I used to kick off my techology career) I was forced to complete endless hours of dull and unsurprising homework. I understand the benefits in moderation but the sheer amount assigned to me was actively detrimental to the point of robbing me of a big chunk of my free time as a teenager.
I desperately wanted to continue teaching myself programming (this was in the early 90’s) but instead I had to complete some mindless essay about sedimentary fucking rocks.
Not to mention that I had undiagnosed ADHD so the homework took me forever and created considerable stress.
Having said that, it was so bad (and felt so pointless) that even though I was academically pretty strong and had wanted to go to University from quite a young age, I instead quit school at 16, immediately got a job in a business consultancy (using my self-taught programming/design skills) and was running small software projects for huge multi-national businesses within a year. By the time most of my peer group graduated University, I had about 5 years of a software development career under my belt and had already started my first business.
In retrospect I don’t think I would have done anything different, apart from putting about 500% less effort into the sedimentary rock essays.
Some might say it is similar to being in prison though…
At least for part of high school that’s what it felt like at times for me. The biggest issue being the forced labour - sorry, I mean “homework” - of which the burden was substantial and the benefits not at all clear.
At the time I remember being very depressed that even when I was at home and away from the school that I often didn’t enjoy, instead of indulging in my hobbies (which, coincidentally, is how I learnt practically all of the specialised skills that I used to kick off my techology career) I was forced to complete endless hours of dull and unsurprising homework. I understand the benefits in moderation but the sheer amount assigned to me was actively detrimental to the point of robbing me of a big chunk of my free time as a teenager.
I desperately wanted to continue teaching myself programming (this was in the early 90’s) but instead I had to complete some mindless essay about sedimentary fucking rocks.
Not to mention that I had undiagnosed ADHD so the homework took me forever and created considerable stress.
Having said that, it was so bad (and felt so pointless) that even though I was academically pretty strong and had wanted to go to University from quite a young age, I instead quit school at 16, immediately got a job in a business consultancy (using my self-taught programming/design skills) and was running small software projects for huge multi-national businesses within a year. By the time most of my peer group graduated University, I had about 5 years of a software development career under my belt and had already started my first business.
In retrospect I don’t think I would have done anything different, apart from putting about 500% less effort into the sedimentary rock essays.
Damn, you're me except I did finish high school. In hindsight I very much wish I'd gotten my GED at 15 or 16 and snagged an associate's degree by age 18. Turns out non-elite college gen-ed classes are easier and have way lower time requirements than the high school I went to (which was just, like, a totally normal high school, nothing special), so it'd have been a breeze. I had no clue about that, and just (reasonably, I think?) assumed it was even harder than what I was already doing. Could have put more time in at my tech job, which was hugely valuable to my future, too.
Although I say I wouldn’t have changed anything, I think it’s really tough to go back and reevaluate choices like this - you can never really know what alternative paths lay ahead, better or worse.
I think we tell ourselves stories about how we got from A to B (like mine above) but in reality it’s never quite as simple. It’s always easier to rationalise and construct what feels like a meaningful narrative in retrospect.
For all you know, the choices you made, even if they now feel slightly uniformed in retrospect may still have been 100% right for you!
I suppose reflecting on my previous comment, the flip side of the situation is that I was incredibly lucky to go to a pretty good school (even though I didn’t always like it much) and the single biggest benefit I got was the utterly amazing life-long friends I made there, who are still great friends today. Those friends have had 1000% more positive impact on me than my schooling did, but I wouldn’t have met them without school.
I think we tell ourselves stories about how we got from A to B (like mine above) but in reality it’s never quite as simple. It’s always easier to rationalise and construct what feels like a meaningful narrative in retrospect.
For all you know, the choices you made, even if they now feel slightly uniformed in retrospect may still have been 100% right for you!
I suppose reflecting on my previous comment, the flip side of the situation is that I was incredibly lucky to go to a pretty good school (even though I didn’t always like it much) and the single biggest benefit I got was the utterly amazing life-long friends I made there, who are still great friends today. Those friends have had 1000% more positive impact on me than my schooling did, but I wouldn’t have met them without school.
Hit close to home! At age 15 I was literally being paid 3x minimum wage by my friend’s dad to build an e-commerce site for his photography business. But my slavemaster (school, of course) took priority and I never had time to finish the project. Ended up failing out of college (undiagnosed ADHD as well) and enlisted in the navy as an escape hatch. The “real” experience of military life straightened out all my dysfunctional behavior, and makes me wonder how things might have been if I hadn’t been so depressed and hopeless and bored for so many years of my adolescence.
> The “real” experience of military life straightened out all my dysfunctional behavior
Interesting. I've often thought that this would have really helped iron out some of my character flaws early on too. At least in the military you are willingly signing up for an experience that you know will be hard, but likely also rewarding and character shaping.
Everyone I know who has been in the military seems to have developed a more resilient and disciplined approach to life which has served them very well later on. Although clearly it's not universally good for everyone who takes this path.
Interesting. I've often thought that this would have really helped iron out some of my character flaws early on too. At least in the military you are willingly signing up for an experience that you know will be hard, but likely also rewarding and character shaping.
Everyone I know who has been in the military seems to have developed a more resilient and disciplined approach to life which has served them very well later on. Although clearly it's not universally good for everyone who takes this path.
worse - when 'adult' situations go sideways, you can often take a sideways look - and damn if they aren't all acting like they are still in high school.
Jail is 100% like high school, from the experiences of the people I know who spent time in the can at least.
Removing high school doesn't necessarily deprive a child of formative experiences, it just changes them.
It's possible for the change to be bad (e.g. parents in a cult pulling their kids out of school to move to The Compound), but I'd wager that if you took a kid who felt like high school was a terrible experience and gave them other constructive options and the resources to pursue them, it'd almost always be a net win.
The value of the 'high school experience' is contextual, not everyone will experience the same balance of good and bad. For some people, the bad is so overwhelming that it goes beyond the point of constructive and well into destructive. Those situations aren't hard to detect.
It's possible for the change to be bad (e.g. parents in a cult pulling their kids out of school to move to The Compound), but I'd wager that if you took a kid who felt like high school was a terrible experience and gave them other constructive options and the resources to pursue them, it'd almost always be a net win.
The value of the 'high school experience' is contextual, not everyone will experience the same balance of good and bad. For some people, the bad is so overwhelming that it goes beyond the point of constructive and well into destructive. Those situations aren't hard to detect.
I constantly hear about how hellish is high school in the US. Do other countries experience the same? I enjoyed the high school equivalent of my country, met some of my best friends there. My peers don’t seem to ever mention bad experiences during that period. Is it really as bad as in the movies? Stereotypical bullies, popular guys vs nerds and all that?
Not the US but The Inbetweeners very accurately summed up my experience of a British comprehensive school. It was like that but the buildings weren’t as nice.
French high school was perfectly fine for me. At least from a social point of view. By the time they reach high school, kids are little more mature and respectful. Probably not the best time of my life but not too bad either.
However, it was a lot of wasted time sitting in classrooms daydreaming. This time could have been spent much more productively. But we don't have any better.
However, it was a lot of wasted time sitting in classrooms daydreaming. This time could have been spent much more productively. But we don't have any better.
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Americans who go to public schools get enough of the "bad bits" in grade through middle school to prepare us for life.
I used to get knots in my stomach on the first day of school. I just knew there would be an after school fight, and I would be involved even though I tried to remain invisible.
I should have gone to a community college instead of high school, but didn't even know it was an option at the time.
(I wasen't a big kid, but taught by my Irish father to never back down from a male on male confrontations. That might explain some of my problems with bullies? By the time I hit high school, I was so beyond fighting, and any form of bullying--to any of my classmates. I really didn't like high school, with the exception of a few girlfriends. Everything I should have learned in high school, I made up for at a community college in a semester. I remember sitting in a chem class with 35 year old nursing students, and I was in heaven. I loved college so much, I didn't want it to end.)
I used to get knots in my stomach on the first day of school. I just knew there would be an after school fight, and I would be involved even though I tried to remain invisible.
I should have gone to a community college instead of high school, but didn't even know it was an option at the time.
(I wasen't a big kid, but taught by my Irish father to never back down from a male on male confrontations. That might explain some of my problems with bullies? By the time I hit high school, I was so beyond fighting, and any form of bullying--to any of my classmates. I really didn't like high school, with the exception of a few girlfriends. Everything I should have learned in high school, I made up for at a community college in a semester. I remember sitting in a chem class with 35 year old nursing students, and I was in heaven. I loved college so much, I didn't want it to end.)
I don't know, that seems kind of trite. Lots of kids have really bad experiences in high school, including being physically attacked: Slammed into lockers, rocks thrown at them, that kind of thing. I don't think that does them any good. Plus, high school makes a few kids miserable enough that they are willing to commit suicide. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger only if it doesn't actually kill you.
Anyway, we do have some empirical evidence of what happens when people skip high school, since many kids are homeschooled. My general impression of people who have been homeschooled is that they are just as much balanced adults as anyone else. That shouldn't be too surprising. Homeschooled kids still socialize with their friends, still struggle to understand concepts, still get into trouble on occasion.
Anyway, we do have some empirical evidence of what happens when people skip high school, since many kids are homeschooled. My general impression of people who have been homeschooled is that they are just as much balanced adults as anyone else. That shouldn't be too surprising. Homeschooled kids still socialize with their friends, still struggle to understand concepts, still get into trouble on occasion.
people have many different experiences of school,
a nice discussion on the topic can be found here https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-the-cult-o...
a nice discussion on the topic can be found here https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-the-cult-o...
Disclaimer: I'm smart (ask my mom!), skipped a grade, went to college at 16, F*ed around and found out, made it out alive on the other side, would not recommend.
Premature optimization is the root of all evil ...
"Some" smart kids should skip "some" high school ... maybe.
But more importantly, a ton of hand-waving here about how unnecessary high school was as a crucible of learning and self-improvement - hint: passing the GED is not the same as high school.
Also pretty optimistic (again, from experience) to expect a smart, lazy kid (the target audience for high school skipping) to "macro-plan" a 4 year "unschooling" experiment for their ages 14-18.
Premature optimization is the root of all evil ...
"Some" smart kids should skip "some" high school ... maybe.
But more importantly, a ton of hand-waving here about how unnecessary high school was as a crucible of learning and self-improvement - hint: passing the GED is not the same as high school.
Also pretty optimistic (again, from experience) to expect a smart, lazy kid (the target audience for high school skipping) to "macro-plan" a 4 year "unschooling" experiment for their ages 14-18.
Discussed at the time:
Smart Kids Should Skip High School - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11509374 - April 2016 (65 comments)
Smart Kids Should Skip High School - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11509374 - April 2016 (65 comments)
Ha, I didn't even remember, I thought this was first time round!
First of all, let me say (tangentially) that I disagree with the notion of skipping college/university, a view that is so popular on HN and other tech circles nowadays. College was one of the best times of my life; I feel like I learned a lot of actual useful knowledge (computer science major), and I made long lasting friendships; 20 years later some of my best friends now still are people I met in college (including my significant other). It wasn't even like I was a popular person in school or anything. I was just an ordinary person.
Having said that, I actually do agree the value of high school is little. Given my pretext above though, here's the problem. I don't know how one would enter college without high school. High school is very much college prep. It sucks both in terms of classes and social life. Most people I know didn't like high school. Perhaps that speaks to who I am and who my friends are (i.e. none of us were popular kids in high school). The author here suggests GED is equivalent to finishing high school which I'm sure it technically is, but college admissions care about high school GPA and SAT scores. I didn't even go to Ivy League or anything but I did go to a University of California which is good in the grand scheme of things but not the top; and I can't imagine getting into one of these without good high school GPA and SAT. Ivy League admission is probably a whole other level of ball game. Maybe then the next argument point is how we fix college admissions, because I don't think getting rid of college entirely and doing bootcamps only is the way to go.
Having said that, I actually do agree the value of high school is little. Given my pretext above though, here's the problem. I don't know how one would enter college without high school. High school is very much college prep. It sucks both in terms of classes and social life. Most people I know didn't like high school. Perhaps that speaks to who I am and who my friends are (i.e. none of us were popular kids in high school). The author here suggests GED is equivalent to finishing high school which I'm sure it technically is, but college admissions care about high school GPA and SAT scores. I didn't even go to Ivy League or anything but I did go to a University of California which is good in the grand scheme of things but not the top; and I can't imagine getting into one of these without good high school GPA and SAT. Ivy League admission is probably a whole other level of ball game. Maybe then the next argument point is how we fix college admissions, because I don't think getting rid of college entirely and doing bootcamps only is the way to go.
My friend did this in hs (well, he "dropped out sophomore year") to go to college, he got his degree in math and is doing quite well. But I will say there is something to be said for having a traditional social experience of hs which i thoroughly enjoyed
Very strange to read this from my German perspective. School is compulsory here, and it has its historical roots in a the Prussian education system which didn't just convey knowledge but socialized kids and young adults, essentially making them citizens.
And that's still I think the most important function of a proper education system. Not only do you acquire basic knowledge, but you learn how to function within an institution, work within groups, face adverse situations, follow instructions, timelines, interact with authority, and so on, you learn the basics of democracy even, how to function within a small political community of sorts.
The majority of people will continue to go on and benefit from this. Whether they work at a large corporation, administration, the military, the legal sector, a medical profession, academia. Most careers are highly structured. People saying that their school experience is nothing like 'real life' in my experience work in highly idiosyncratic professions that only employ a minority of individuals.
And as a side note, my parents couldn't teach me anything past 8th grade. the entire notion of leaving the school system is essentially preserved for people whose parents are affluent or fairly educated.
And that's still I think the most important function of a proper education system. Not only do you acquire basic knowledge, but you learn how to function within an institution, work within groups, face adverse situations, follow instructions, timelines, interact with authority, and so on, you learn the basics of democracy even, how to function within a small political community of sorts.
The majority of people will continue to go on and benefit from this. Whether they work at a large corporation, administration, the military, the legal sector, a medical profession, academia. Most careers are highly structured. People saying that their school experience is nothing like 'real life' in my experience work in highly idiosyncratic professions that only employ a minority of individuals.
And as a side note, my parents couldn't teach me anything past 8th grade. the entire notion of leaving the school system is essentially preserved for people whose parents are affluent or fairly educated.
I found school academically useful for two reasons. First, I am very lazy, but I also don’t want to look it, so I actually took notes, did problem sheets, &c.—and in lessons, since I had nothing better to do, I paid attention and talked about the material. This assumes of course that the school is able to impart something useful, which may not be the case.
The structure really helped me. So I did quite well, could have done better, but that really wouldn't have mattered in the end. The less structured University went less well. But lot of it was also good teachers in good school.
In order to make a convincing argument, the author needs to elaborate more on how the time should be spent instead
While I can agree with him high school is a lot of tedium and busy work, I'm skeptical sitting around at home doing whatever you want will result in a more enriching use of time
There will be the natural tendency to avoid learning about things you don't like, which can result in a biased worldview. There is the natural tendency to procrastinate. There is the need to interact with people with different perspectives who will challenge your ideas. I don't see this will be an environment that helps budding minds flourish.
I might have been more inclined to agree with him pre-pandemic, but the experience has taught me I (and probably most other people too) actually suck at using time well when there is no structure
While I can agree with him high school is a lot of tedium and busy work, I'm skeptical sitting around at home doing whatever you want will result in a more enriching use of time
There will be the natural tendency to avoid learning about things you don't like, which can result in a biased worldview. There is the natural tendency to procrastinate. There is the need to interact with people with different perspectives who will challenge your ideas. I don't see this will be an environment that helps budding minds flourish.
I might have been more inclined to agree with him pre-pandemic, but the experience has taught me I (and probably most other people too) actually suck at using time well when there is no structure
Effectively the argument would seem to be for homeschooling, probably in a minimally structured way.
I knew a few kids who went to college very early. To say that it messed up their life is an understatement. Schools should figure out how to teach smart kids useful stuff while they get to learn how to be social with kids their own age.
Lots of people start doing olympiads (often there are relatively big correspondence programmes and similar to train people before selecting teams for the international ones). I was never intelligent enough to do well in them, alas.
This woman dropped out of high school and illegally became an underage prostitute because she was struggling with depression. I don't mean to minimize her experience or suggest there is anything intrinsically wrong with that, but I don't think you can just project whatever terrible school experiences led her to that and think everyone has that bad of an experience in high school.
This reminds me a bit of Scott Alexander's extreme bias against school, due to all of the extreme bullying he faced.
It might make more sense to say kids who are having a truly awful experience in high school should skip high school, rather than just "smart kids should skip high school." I think I was a pretty smart person, perfect SAT score even, and I certainly could have learned everything I learned in high school must faster with less wasted time if I studied on my own, but I don't think the experience was worthless. It's the last time I had real, truly close friends. It was the last time I competed hard in real sports leagues. Theoretically, I could have tried to find other ways to do those things, but there's some benefit to just being around the same people all the time and doing things together if you don't hate each other and make each other's lives awful.
I don't know what else I would have done. I may have been academically ready for college a lot earlier, but I wasn't socially ready. I wasn't socially ready even at 18 and probably should have waited even longer. You can't just actually go to work even if you're able to because of child labor laws.
This reminds me a bit of Scott Alexander's extreme bias against school, due to all of the extreme bullying he faced.
It might make more sense to say kids who are having a truly awful experience in high school should skip high school, rather than just "smart kids should skip high school." I think I was a pretty smart person, perfect SAT score even, and I certainly could have learned everything I learned in high school must faster with less wasted time if I studied on my own, but I don't think the experience was worthless. It's the last time I had real, truly close friends. It was the last time I competed hard in real sports leagues. Theoretically, I could have tried to find other ways to do those things, but there's some benefit to just being around the same people all the time and doing things together if you don't hate each other and make each other's lives awful.
I don't know what else I would have done. I may have been academically ready for college a lot earlier, but I wasn't socially ready. I wasn't socially ready even at 18 and probably should have waited even longer. You can't just actually go to work even if you're able to because of child labor laws.
I am having a hard time coming to terms with your thought that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with illegally becoming an underage prostitute.
As someone who slept through a very large percentage of classes (and failed 5/8 classes one year), and who has been gainfully employed since "completing" high school, I completely agree. I learned far more, and far more relevant/valuable stuff, by pursuing my interests at home via the internet and computers. I was far more interested in the seemingly-infinite world of technology, music and software than really anything that was being "taught" at school. Turns out my interminable pursuit of my interests was validated with lucrative career opportunities -- much to the surprise of naysayers who thought I was "going down the wrong path". :)
People tried so hard to get me to care at all about high school but no one could possibly convince me that the rote, mundane textbook crap was going to be worth spending my life on. Indeed, there is no time I look back and think "I wish I paid attention in that class". I got to enjoy my teenage years delving into fascinating, rewarding stuff, and developed tons of awesome skills in the process, too.
People tried so hard to get me to care at all about high school but no one could possibly convince me that the rote, mundane textbook crap was going to be worth spending my life on. Indeed, there is no time I look back and think "I wish I paid attention in that class". I got to enjoy my teenage years delving into fascinating, rewarding stuff, and developed tons of awesome skills in the process, too.
At the very least, please be aware of AP classes that you can get college credit for instead of having to essentially retake the same courses later.
Most High Schools are just daycare centers that keep kids out of trouble. Teachers honestly try their hardest, but they have an entire system stacked against them. Compulsory attendance, kids packed in like sardines, poor mental health, child abuse, poor nutrition, crime, drugs, fights, endless bullying.
A while ago I saw a quote that if you cut social services it will end up in the emergency room. The same goes for the High Schools. They HAVE to run them like prisons in order to even hope to deal with the number of issues they see.
If you have any alternative, avoid sending your kid to a High School unless you can vet that it's not a hellhole. I haven't had to fight a person, say no to hard drugs, avoid pickpockets, or withstand constant verbal and physical assault since leaving High School.
To all those who had a wonderful High School experience I am truly happy for you. However, I think for many kids, they could get more beneficial social experiences literally anywhere else. Ones that don't scar or taint you.
A while ago I saw a quote that if you cut social services it will end up in the emergency room. The same goes for the High Schools. They HAVE to run them like prisons in order to even hope to deal with the number of issues they see.
If you have any alternative, avoid sending your kid to a High School unless you can vet that it's not a hellhole. I haven't had to fight a person, say no to hard drugs, avoid pickpockets, or withstand constant verbal and physical assault since leaving High School.
To all those who had a wonderful High School experience I am truly happy for you. However, I think for many kids, they could get more beneficial social experiences literally anywhere else. Ones that don't scar or taint you.
You didn't specify which country you're from. Kinda sad, but it sounds like a warzone and my brain jumped to the conclusion: must be the USA. (Not meant disrespectfully to you, by the way.)
I'm from the USA, but the problem with High Schools is certainly not limited to the US. Also, you are right that it sounds like a warzone.
The particular High School I went to was in a town that had just lost it's military base and had turned into a bedroom community for halfway houses. (Places where criminals leaving prison would stay on parole.) This mixed a large number of different gangs together into a single area leading to tons of terrible things. This all trickled down to the kids in the area.
Fights involving 10 or more kids were common. Walking home you had to avoid certain times and places where after school fighting would take place. Parks and culverts were DMZs at certain times. Resource officers used pepper spray in crowded hallways where a fight had broken out. Whenever we had a school assembly it was pretty common for a riot to break out.
This was the "Good" High School in town. There were two others that were quite a bit worse. Problems with weapons, fires, and such.
The particular High School I went to was in a town that had just lost it's military base and had turned into a bedroom community for halfway houses. (Places where criminals leaving prison would stay on parole.) This mixed a large number of different gangs together into a single area leading to tons of terrible things. This all trickled down to the kids in the area.
Fights involving 10 or more kids were common. Walking home you had to avoid certain times and places where after school fighting would take place. Parks and culverts were DMZs at certain times. Resource officers used pepper spray in crowded hallways where a fight had broken out. Whenever we had a school assembly it was pretty common for a riot to break out.
This was the "Good" High School in town. There were two others that were quite a bit worse. Problems with weapons, fires, and such.
If you can't figure out how to benefit from high school then sure, it's a big waste of time. It is also a unique setting in American life. In no other setting is such a broad range of activities, athletics, and arts available to a person. You aren't very likely to find opportunities to participate in competitive sports and athletics, amateur bands and orchestras after high school. I, personally, just ignored the academic parts of it after I'd piled up enough AP tests and whatnot for admission to selective colleges. Hell, in my senior year I barely had any real classes at all. I filled up my schedule with three different music subjects, newspaper/yearbook/photography, sports, and pointless electives like drafting, which was, by the way, a lot of fun. High school is also, how to put this politely, a rather unique atmosphere of sexual experimentation. Skipping that and attending a college where everyone is much older than you is not going to replace that.
College, on the other hand, was an abject waste of four years.
College, on the other hand, was an abject waste of four years.
I'm a highschool dropout, but I did a decent job of attending most of the way through anyway cause all my friends weren't fuckups. I have a hard time imagining what sort of person I'd be if I didn't have that growth with a cohort of friends.
In terms of my success as a human who is part of society I don't think anything has been as helpful as the social skills that I learned in high school. I don't think it's the only way to learn these skills, but I certainly feel like my social-learning velocity was by far the highest in high school.
Ultimately how other people perceive me influences my quality of life more than any other thing. I don't think as a "smart kid" skipping high school would have helped me, I think it would have hurt me a lot. I feel like my life opened up immensely when I accepted that being smart and correct and having a deep understanding of the problem at hand matters so much less than being able to get along with people.
In terms of my success as a human who is part of society I don't think anything has been as helpful as the social skills that I learned in high school. I don't think it's the only way to learn these skills, but I certainly feel like my social-learning velocity was by far the highest in high school.
Ultimately how other people perceive me influences my quality of life more than any other thing. I don't think as a "smart kid" skipping high school would have helped me, I think it would have hurt me a lot. I feel like my life opened up immensely when I accepted that being smart and correct and having a deep understanding of the problem at hand matters so much less than being able to get along with people.
If you have a plan and motivation, go for it. Assuming you need to make money, you can either be self employed, in a partnership, or employed by someone else. The first requires you be a good business person, which is not a common innate trait but can be learned to some extent. The second is often a great option if you have equally motivated partners with complementary strengths. The third usually requires some sort of signalling to get employers to hire you. Having a degree is part of that signalling. This is, of course, completely ignoring that some professions require a degree, like being a doctor, which is rewarding work. As a teenager, you often have no idea what you will find meaningful and rewarding later in life, making this type of decision quite risky.
I'm naturally suspicious of anyone's "shoulds" about education unless they base them on research in sociology, psychology, and/or pedagogy. Otherwise, they are usually based on the person's own personal history and our interpretation of our history is always suspect and biased.
(The author's disclaimer means my point doesn't apply to the linked article.)
It may be the case that the author's high school experience wasn't worth the time, but that's a retroactive observation. It's probably true that for some people high school is a net good and for some it isn't. But unless you have an effective way to distinguish one from the other before they go to high school, it's hard to draw actionable advice from that fact.
(The author's disclaimer means my point doesn't apply to the linked article.)
It may be the case that the author's high school experience wasn't worth the time, but that's a retroactive observation. It's probably true that for some people high school is a net good and for some it isn't. But unless you have an effective way to distinguish one from the other before they go to high school, it's hard to draw actionable advice from that fact.
I skipped 5th grade and I can't for the life of me really pinpoint what possible negative impact it has had on my life. And, even if you suggest that there really wasn't any positive, either, just as a sheer function of entering the labor force one year earlier, the lifetime income impact is quite significant. I certainly don't want to dismiss that I had one less year of fun elementary school times with friends, but it's fairly clear to me that the way we've organized schooling isn't really rooted in anything that really promotes the success of an individual, but more what is socially most efficient/easiest.
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The author's description of high school makes me feel grateful for the teachers I had. I guess I got lucky with a public school that had teachers that cared and made an effort to teach rather than have us do rote memorization.
Having skipped a year of school at 15, yes skipping several years of school could help.
(I was then stuck for another year twiddling my thumbs as I couldn't skip 2 years in the UK but had already mastered the material)
Imo, there is way too much no child left behind. But that's referring to the UK education system where you can't proceed without ticking all the boxes at each step. (To be clear I don't blame the teachers, most of that nonsense comes from council level interventions and management)
The national system does a very good job of completely failing those at the top and bottom of the grading system the worst.
Imo, there is way too much no child left behind. But that's referring to the UK education system where you can't proceed without ticking all the boxes at each step. (To be clear I don't blame the teachers, most of that nonsense comes from council level interventions and management)
The national system does a very good job of completely failing those at the top and bottom of the grading system the worst.
My Wife left high school after sophomore year, she didn't like the bullying etc. and got into "middle college" a program with college level classes at the local community college taught by professors. She got into NYU and a few others once she graduated so there is a path outside of high school for some. I do feel like there is a valuable lesson to be learned from high school besides education and that is socialization. Going straight to college after middle school seems unrealistic for 99% of folks anyway so what will be filled with that 4 years before college starts?
Broadly, I think the mistake is thinking that "what is taught in school" is somehow objectively good or necessary.
I've come to think of it more in terms of "School helps people navigate a world in which you are generally expected to go to school."
Some people will get a great deal of value from it, and really need it, whatever "it" is -- it could be what's in the books or it could be what's in the people around you.
Some people may not need it much at all.
Furthermore, of course what makes this especially complex is the variance in "schools."
I've come to think of it more in terms of "School helps people navigate a world in which you are generally expected to go to school."
Some people will get a great deal of value from it, and really need it, whatever "it" is -- it could be what's in the books or it could be what's in the people around you.
Some people may not need it much at all.
Furthermore, of course what makes this especially complex is the variance in "schools."
I'm so glad I went to high school, it was really tough but I don't think I, or the vast majority of 13, 14, 15, or 16 year olds would be mature enough to take full advantage of college. High school isn't just about learning trigonometry, it's about easing your way into learning what it means to be an adult. I don't think you can do this surrounded by peers who are 30-60% older than you at such a young age. Maybe I could have skipped high school, but I'm glad I didn't.
Smart kids would find it easier skipping 1st through 4th grade than high school. For those years, the curriculum is usually the same year per year, except with a little more explanation as time goes by.
If you are someone who grokked addition in your first week of kindergarten, you could have learned all the way up to 4th grade math in a single year. If you were reading at age 3, you didn’t need 7 more years of study to read at a 4th grade level…
Smartness really helps when all school is trying to alleviate is ignorance.
If you are someone who grokked addition in your first week of kindergarten, you could have learned all the way up to 4th grade math in a single year. If you were reading at age 3, you didn’t need 7 more years of study to read at a 4th grade level…
Smartness really helps when all school is trying to alleviate is ignorance.
The economist Bryan Caplan recently wrote about the experience of his twins who recently entered college after doing homeschooling for middle and high school. There seems to be a lot of overlap in their experiences to this article https://www.econlib.org/our-homeschooling-odyssey/
A very bright friend of mine dropped out of high-school, got his GED and moved onto college while we were all still going to high-school. At the time he dropped out, 1989, I felt it was a terrible thing but looking back on it; it was really quite brilliant. The unfortunate part is that the GED limited his choice of college but it didn't seem to hold him back that much after 2 years of community college.
I skipped high school because I started working full time to keep the roof over my families head at 15.
Extreme poverty is more avoidable now that we have the ACA and preexisting conditions can't be used to destroy multiple generations of a family's life.
If you are a software engineer it's fine.
Yes there are downsides, I know them all. I can talk about this for days.
Extreme poverty is more avoidable now that we have the ACA and preexisting conditions can't be used to destroy multiple generations of a family's life.
If you are a software engineer it's fine.
Yes there are downsides, I know them all. I can talk about this for days.
Counterpoint: If high school is a hellish experience then why are only the smart kids recommended to skip it? It would seem that the most mature would be best at navigating an experience like that.
High-school (and puberty) should simply be made to not be a terrible experience for everyone. Good luck with that without a dramatic cultural shift.
High-school (and puberty) should simply be made to not be a terrible experience for everyone. Good luck with that without a dramatic cultural shift.
Honestly, most of primary education is a waste of time. If you are a young student and demonstrate good ability in the basics (Algebra, Geometry, sciences, etc) you should be allowed to get ahead.
Additionally, public schooling is more of a glorified day-care than an actual place of learning these days.
Pretty poor advice.
Better advice would be: think critically about what you are getting from high school. Use it as a tool to get what you need or skip it if you think you have better use of your time and money.
Good reason to not skip high school are further developing social skills and especially if you have no better use of your time.
Better advice would be: think critically about what you are getting from high school. Use it as a tool to get what you need or skip it if you think you have better use of your time and money.
Good reason to not skip high school are further developing social skills and especially if you have no better use of your time.
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Instead of skipping, why not show them advanced material? Like bachilleratos or 1st Uni semester...
The International Baccalaureate high school program is international and offers exactly that, my experience with it has been incredible so far and I know that it's helped me prepare for college in uncountable ways. Our capstone essay is 4000 words on a class of our choice, so whatever the student is passionate about, they can write their essay on. This is a perfect solution to students who may be intelligent but unmotivated outside of their interest area. For example, mine is about peer-to-peer networking; I spend most of my nights doing research for the paper and it certainly is preparing me for college.
It's not available everywhere I believe, but if it's available, there's another option compared to AP classes or regular classes (or other magnet/governor schools).
It's not available everywhere I believe, but if it's available, there's another option compared to AP classes or regular classes (or other magnet/governor schools).
A lot of public schools these days let students take these sort of classes at a local community college and these credits can even transfer into your undergrad. Probably not available in more rural parts that don't have these colleges though.
High school and college do nothing for someone with an IQ over 115. School can't help someone who doesn't want to learn. School can't help someone who does want to learn. Other than that, school is very helpful.
If there's such a thing like decentralized education, what would it be? And no homeschooling isn't the answer, not for parent with a typical 9-5 employment (who may enjoy their jobs).
I think high school education was very good for me. Then again we had proper educational system here. Much more so than university, which I think had much less effect.
If you are a high schooler, and you read this article and now you think should skip high school (and college), you should definitely go to high school and college.
But really smart kids: drop out of school ASAP, get together, and make their first $1M by the age of 18.
Homeschooling is a great middle ground here if it’s available to you.
smart kids should go to high school and take AP classes and participate in high school activities like Academic Decathlon with like minded peers
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I benefited immensely from a good high school (american, public). It was the only thing I got close to a humanist curriculum. That was nice. I would not want to pay college prices to learn basic biology/chemistry/history/etc. The knowledge I learned there has been more useful to my career (data science) than what I picked up in undergrad or grad school (MIT), and that's not to downplay either of the latter two.
I also learned that I was a weird kid who didn't know how to socialize... and so I had good time to do that while being forced to meet with a fairly large group of people for an extended period of time. College did not do this. College provided opportunities for this, but it was easier to be a recluse.
What America needs is more good high schools, not to give up on the concept itself. If anyone doesn't need high school, it's kids who don't have any interest in learning there. I had an easy time academically in high school. Mostly A's with no studying, and over a dozen AP classes passed, including a few that I just tested out of with some self study. But I still learned a great deal. I do wish it moved faster, but in the scheme of things it was a great experience.
I also learned that I was a weird kid who didn't know how to socialize... and so I had good time to do that while being forced to meet with a fairly large group of people for an extended period of time. College did not do this. College provided opportunities for this, but it was easier to be a recluse.
What America needs is more good high schools, not to give up on the concept itself. If anyone doesn't need high school, it's kids who don't have any interest in learning there. I had an easy time academically in high school. Mostly A's with no studying, and over a dozen AP classes passed, including a few that I just tested out of with some self study. But I still learned a great deal. I do wish it moved faster, but in the scheme of things it was a great experience.
I read somewhere that kids with IQ 140 waste about half their time in school. Kids with IQ of 170 waste all their time at school. It's no wonder that kids with IQ 145 or greater are mostly home schooled, because there's no real school that can handle them and the issues that come with those kids. Skipping high school definitely sounds like a better path, especially given the social problems with being with kids so much older than you.
What percentage of people have a 145 IQ? That sounds really high.
Every 15 IQ points from 100 is one standard deviation away, where 100 is the average. So 145 is 3 standard deviations away from average or 99.7%.
I think it's 99.7% within three standard deviations (e.g., in either direction) so presumably half as many are three standard deviations above the mean—99.85% (top 0.15%).
Tiny % either way.
Tiny % either way.
145 is ~ the top tenth of 1 percent. In a large high school there might be one such person.
I feel the need to be pedantic here, because your post makes a couple simplifications in the same direction that skew the results by roughly an order of magnitude.
145 is the top three tenths of 1 percent, not the top tenth. The average high school size in the US is 854 students [1]. In an average school, you would expect there to be 2.5 students with 145+ IQ. The largest school in each state is about 5-10x the average size school for that state. Let's call a large school 3x average, then. In a large school, you would expect to find 7.5 students with 145+ IQ, or roughly 2 per graduating year.
"About 8" and "Maybe 1" are almost an order of magnitude apart.
1: 2011 Dept of Ed statistics https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/pesschools09/tables/table_05.as...
145 is the top three tenths of 1 percent, not the top tenth. The average high school size in the US is 854 students [1]. In an average school, you would expect there to be 2.5 students with 145+ IQ. The largest school in each state is about 5-10x the average size school for that state. Let's call a large school 3x average, then. In a large school, you would expect to find 7.5 students with 145+ IQ, or roughly 2 per graduating year.
"About 8" and "Maybe 1" are almost an order of magnitude apart.
1: 2011 Dept of Ed statistics https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/pesschools09/tables/table_05.as...
Really? I thought that std. dev. was 15, so 145 would be the .9987 quantile, which I abbreviate to about the top .1%. If std. dev. is 16 then it's the top .25%.
But we agree on the bottom line: 145 is not rare. You might know someone of this IQ.
But we agree on the bottom line: 145 is not rare. You might know someone of this IQ.
Unless you went to HS with one of biggest gifted programs in a major city, where that level was common. I would say with some certainty they were fine with college aged social activities.
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Source?
I didn't know but I simply googled it. It's from Leta Hollingworth, a researcher on gifted children from the mid-20th century, her book "Children Above 180 IQ".
I turned out fine - but in retrospect I had a lot of growing up yet to do, and I think I would have made better use of my college experience if I had been able to do that growing up before college as opposed to during freshman and sophomore year, where you make a lot of decisions that will influence your life for a while. I missed many opportunities at MIT because I didn't really understand how the academic and professional world worked and what would be important to focus on for my career - let alone more personal matters. Looking back now I wish I had actually taken a year off before college, as opposed to skipping a grade in a hurry to get there, and I encourage every high school student and parent I know to think in these terms.
This will of course be very situational. Yes, if you are in a bad high school with bad teachers and bad students, you might be better off skipping it in favor of some alternative. But in general, a lot of growing up is just getting experience and doing things, and high school is how you get a lot of that experience before you go to college and have to do bigger and more consequential things. Don't be (or don't let your kids be) in a hurry to get ahead of that curve.