The Dubai Debt Trap(economist.com)
economist.com
The Dubai Debt Trap
https://www.economist.com/1843/2021/12/15/the-dubai-debt-trap
355 comments
https://archive.is/GKvGU
Disable javascript and the entire article loads on the economist.
Lynx is the best reader for the economist.
Back in 2016, The Economist used to block access from lynx. You'd get an error like this (unless you spoofed the user agent to be something other than lynx):
Error 403 You are banned from this site. Please contact via a different client configuration if you believe that this is a mistake.
You are banned from this site. Please contact via a different client configuration if you believe that this is a mistake.
Error 403 You are banned from this site. Please contact via a different client configuration if you believe that this is a mistake.
You are banned from this site. Please contact via a different client configuration if you believe that this is a mistake.
Guru Meditation:
XID: 84740260
__________________________________________________________________
Varnish cache serverTbh, I was probably running some clone like bobcat.
I don't love reading long articles in fixed-width fonts.
Then pipeline to a PS/PDF generator.
For most modern Web publishing, this is mostly a matter of finding and extracting the <article> block, as well as metadata (title, byline, dateline).
html-xml-tools is quite useful for this.
I'd created a WaPo extractor that reduced pagesize by about 95%, stripped the nags and paywalls, etc. Endpoint was HTML, but that could just as easily have generated PDF or ePub if I'd wanted.
For most modern Web publishing, this is mostly a matter of finding and extracting the <article> block, as well as metadata (title, byline, dateline).
html-xml-tools is quite useful for this.
I'd created a WaPo extractor that reduced pagesize by about 95%, stripped the nags and paywalls, etc. Endpoint was HTML, but that could just as easily have generated PDF or ePub if I'd wanted.
I applaud people who take advantage of the fact that the internet is still largely machine-readable and hackable.
I am much lazier, but I use "reader mode" to similar effect.
I am much lazier, but I use "reader mode" to similar effect.
Outline works well too:
https://outline.com/jtdYRj
https://outline.com/jtdYRj
W3M is fine too.
This extension is effective, and by default restricts its access only asks for permissions for supported news sites (instead of having permission to access "All site data" like too many browser extensions):
https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-chrome-clean
https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-chrome-clean
Here's the Firefox version: https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-firefox-clea...
One of many reasons that I will never enter the UAE. There is no rule of law, and so no protection if anyone decides to charge you for anything. I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage, or of foreigners who get driven into by a local and then charged as if they were the ones being reckless.
That's not even going into their de facto slavery with foreign construction workers, environmental damage, and sexism.
That's not even going into their de facto slavery with foreign construction workers, environmental damage, and sexism.
After some bad experiences I will never visit an Arab country again. They'll have to do something against the sexism, constant heckling and the bad state of law before I even think about going there. Or they can do whatever they want, they don't have to change just for me.
I'm 6 ft 6 and I have a blonde wife who's just a bit smaller. Even though we behaved very polite and dressed like locals it was like we had a big target on our backs and were looked upon with resentment everywhere we went.
I will not mention the countries we visited but it was pretty much the same everywhere.
I'm 6 ft 6 and I have a blonde wife who's just a bit smaller. Even though we behaved very polite and dressed like locals it was like we had a big target on our backs and were looked upon with resentment everywhere we went.
I will not mention the countries we visited but it was pretty much the same everywhere.
How about having an international bribery conspiracy pinned on you?
Happened to my pops because he, a German-born Canadian of Turkish and German descent, refused to pay bribes. I was actually conceived while he was out there in Saudi Arabia with my mom and they came back to Canada to have me but not before a giant RCMP investigation kicked off that ended up in Canadian parliament because courts didn't have jurisdiction at that time.
The only reason he didn't go to jail was ONE GUY, a young Lebanese dude with a family and a nascent green card to America had the balls to go against everyone else in the conspiracy. He freely testified that he was the one that actually carried the cash between the parties involved—implicating himself and risking his family's future—and he knew just who was guilty and who wasn't and the one guy who wasn't in on it was my father.
Later, he met with some American officials and they said something along the lines of "don't worry about your green card, we want more Americans like you" to the Lebanese dude.
Later my parents made him and his wife my godparents and we talk on the phone even to this day.
But think about it. Dozens of well-off people conspired to pin prison time on some random person from Canada who wouldn't hurt a soul.
Fuck. That.
Happened to my pops because he, a German-born Canadian of Turkish and German descent, refused to pay bribes. I was actually conceived while he was out there in Saudi Arabia with my mom and they came back to Canada to have me but not before a giant RCMP investigation kicked off that ended up in Canadian parliament because courts didn't have jurisdiction at that time.
The only reason he didn't go to jail was ONE GUY, a young Lebanese dude with a family and a nascent green card to America had the balls to go against everyone else in the conspiracy. He freely testified that he was the one that actually carried the cash between the parties involved—implicating himself and risking his family's future—and he knew just who was guilty and who wasn't and the one guy who wasn't in on it was my father.
Later, he met with some American officials and they said something along the lines of "don't worry about your green card, we want more Americans like you" to the Lebanese dude.
Later my parents made him and his wife my godparents and we talk on the phone even to this day.
But think about it. Dozens of well-off people conspired to pin prison time on some random person from Canada who wouldn't hurt a soul.
Fuck. That.
I went to Egypt a few months ago and was met with incredibly warm people, with perhaps even an excess of hospitality. Yes, you do get charged extra for being a tourist at the tourist spots. But that's only a small part of the country. That said, I am Indian and was met as an Egyptian most of the time (people would start speaking to me in Arabic 70% of the time), so I had the benefit of fitting in well. The delicious food, the serene Nile, the magnificent range of art, the tea shops, and the people - the country is worth a visit even if you aren't into ancient Egyptian stuff. Travel is always a risk, so there's that.
I am an Egyptian, thanks for your comment.
The last time I visited Dahab (a very simple yet beautiful place in Sinai, not sure if you know it or not), I saw an Arab man, from his accent it was clear he is not an Egyptian, maybe he is a Saudi or Kuwaiti, he was having a discussion with the Hotel's reception about being charged more just because he is not an Egyptian. This is just something stupid they do to get more money. I am sorry that you had to pay more for the same service.
The last time I visited Dahab (a very simple yet beautiful place in Sinai, not sure if you know it or not), I saw an Arab man, from his accent it was clear he is not an Egyptian, maybe he is a Saudi or Kuwaiti, he was having a discussion with the Hotel's reception about being charged more just because he is not an Egyptian. This is just something stupid they do to get more money. I am sorry that you had to pay more for the same service.
I've heard wonderful things about Dahab! I'd love to visit if I get to go back to Egypt.
I didn't mind the overcharging too much when it was obvious. Like it was funny to me and the taxi driver that he was charging too much, and we had a laugh about it. Coming from the USA, the flight cost far dominated any expenses from when I was in Egypt. The one time it did feel bad was when the tour guide I hired, who seemed to be on my side, let me be overcharged by someone he had a prior arrangement with. But alas he was so knowledgable.
I realize all this is only a small part of Egypt and it's not fair to judge a whole country by a few bad apples.
One of my new Egyptian friends wanted me to try so many types of food that he sent me home with two extra bags of stuff. That's excessive hospitality :)
I didn't mind the overcharging too much when it was obvious. Like it was funny to me and the taxi driver that he was charging too much, and we had a laugh about it. Coming from the USA, the flight cost far dominated any expenses from when I was in Egypt. The one time it did feel bad was when the tour guide I hired, who seemed to be on my side, let me be overcharged by someone he had a prior arrangement with. But alas he was so knowledgable.
I realize all this is only a small part of Egypt and it's not fair to judge a whole country by a few bad apples.
One of my new Egyptian friends wanted me to try so many types of food that he sent me home with two extra bags of stuff. That's excessive hospitality :)
I'm guessing you're also a male, since I've literally never heard a good story about a female traveler without a male companion in Egypt or the Maghreb in general.
Well, to my surprise I have indeed met some western women who enjoyed hitchhiking through morocco alone (or together with a female friend). But they knew what to expect and were very strong women, who did not flinch by sexism and aggressive avances and could put them down.
They might have been lucky, though. A moroccan women who also hitchhiked a lot just stated, the closer to mauretania, the more rape attempts.
They might have been lucky, though. A moroccan women who also hitchhiked a lot just stated, the closer to mauretania, the more rape attempts.
I wouldn't exactly call needing to steel yourself against rampant sexism and aggressive sexual advances a "good story". I guess if they enjoyed themselves and weren't raped and murdered, that is all that matters.
I am a man. Yes, it is unfortunate that the differences in experience persist. :(
That is so good to hear! I've always wanted to go to Egypt, but it almost seems a bit scary since I'm so unfamiliar with that part of the world aside from all of the negative bits you hear on the news, e.g. civil unrest.
[deleted]
But are you male or female?
As someone from an arab country i can say, this is true, sexual harassment is rampant and people see women more or less like an object than a human being.
I must say I visited Jordan with my wife in 2020, right before the pandemic and I had a wonderful experience. No heckling, we felt safe all the time, people didn't rip us off, and when looked at we felt it was more curiosity than anything else.
We loved it. I'm learning arabic on Duolingo now because I got curious about the script.
Of course, YMMV.
We loved it. I'm learning arabic on Duolingo now because I got curious about the script.
Of course, YMMV.
I'll echo that, having had exactly the same experience in 2018. We stand out almost everywhere - I'm Caucasian with a rugby player's build, and my partner is tall and very obviously East Asian. Yet there was no heckling, no scams, no soliciting for bribes, at most there was friendly interest when interacting with locals. I fully expected to need grifter repellent from time to time, and but it was not so. So I'll also pipe up for Jordan.
I know it's not a perfect country, but to us it felt safe, in the way that some other nations don't, and we weren't confining ourselves to the usual tourist spots of Amman, Petra, and Wadi Rum, but also wandering further afield besides. Yet I've felt more at risk in parts of Europe, Russia, and China.
I just checked some global indexes and was not surprised to find that Jordan ranks #1 for literacy and medicine in the region, despite being one of the nations without oil revenue. In my experience it carried itself with the patina of both storied history and modern education.
I know it's not a perfect country, but to us it felt safe, in the way that some other nations don't, and we weren't confining ourselves to the usual tourist spots of Amman, Petra, and Wadi Rum, but also wandering further afield besides. Yet I've felt more at risk in parts of Europe, Russia, and China.
I just checked some global indexes and was not surprised to find that Jordan ranks #1 for literacy and medicine in the region, despite being one of the nations without oil revenue. In my experience it carried itself with the patina of both storied history and modern education.
Did you see Petra? How was it?
Yes, it was great. We were free to roam around inside and saw most of it, up to the monastery, and then up to another viewpoint ("the best view in the world"). I think we walked about 20km that day. It was worth it.
We bought tickets for the Petra by night show, and while it was good, we felt it was a bit expensive for what it was.
The martian landscapes of Wadi Rum were equally as good.
We bought tickets for the Petra by night show, and while it was good, we felt it was a bit expensive for what it was.
The martian landscapes of Wadi Rum were equally as good.
I was quite saddened by the number of people who go to petra and only factor in a few hours, never going much further than the treasury. I appreciate not everyone has a lot of time in their itinerary, but that seems to be one part you should make the time for.
We had two full days there and it was such an extraordinary site to look around.
And I'm pretty sure there were about 5 "Best view in the world" :) Although all of them could make a pretty good claim to the title, it's a stunning area.
We had two full days there and it was such an extraordinary site to look around.
And I'm pretty sure there were about 5 "Best view in the world" :) Although all of them could make a pretty good claim to the title, it's a stunning area.
> They'll have to do something against the sexism
They're working on it. The situation has improved. There's a long way to go, but there's progress. Give it a 100 more years.
> dressed like locals
Please don't do that. It just looks weird when foreigners do it. Just wear what you would normally wear in your western country. (Although, a bikini is probably not a good idea).
> were looked upon with resentment everywhere we went.
I've lived in USA for a while. Although people were generally very friendly, I have definitely been looked at with resentment from America for no good reason.
They're working on it. The situation has improved. There's a long way to go, but there's progress. Give it a 100 more years.
> dressed like locals
Please don't do that. It just looks weird when foreigners do it. Just wear what you would normally wear in your western country. (Although, a bikini is probably not a good idea).
> were looked upon with resentment everywhere we went.
I've lived in USA for a while. Although people were generally very friendly, I have definitely been looked at with resentment from America for no good reason.
IMO it is very unlikely Dubai functionally exists in 100 years. The end of the oil age, global warming, war, decay.
Then the sand will consume it.
I predict it will be a fascinating ghost city, almost like a bizarro-pyramids/sphinx/etc.
Then the sand will consume it.
I predict it will be a fascinating ghost city, almost like a bizarro-pyramids/sphinx/etc.
The oil kings realised long ago they'll run out of oil eventually.
So they've diversified into other businesses. It's now a hub of business activities that have nothing to do with oil.
Global warming — yes that's a problem, but Dubai won't be the only place affected by it.
War — what makes you think there'll be a war? Whatever it is, it's just speculation at this point. As long as a certain war-o-phile country doesn't decide to flatten it.
decay — huh?! What decay?!
> Then the sand will consume it.
Sandman!
So they've diversified into other businesses. It's now a hub of business activities that have nothing to do with oil.
Global warming — yes that's a problem, but Dubai won't be the only place affected by it.
War — what makes you think there'll be a war? Whatever it is, it's just speculation at this point. As long as a certain war-o-phile country doesn't decide to flatten it.
decay — huh?! What decay?!
> Then the sand will consume it.
Sandman!
Physically it's like when I fly over Arizona and Las Vegas. Those are preposterous settlements. Dubai is that to the nth degree.
Dubai is so recently and explosively settled, you may not understand what I mean by decay. Cities evolve, change, decay, and hopefully renew. Dubai is a product of aggressive investment/subsidy by the royalty, directly or not. Parts of the city will decline. Aspects of the city will decline. Decay is inevitable, it's entropy. Cities are like life: they must actively renew themselves or they fade.
Dubai also is basically a modern slave labor state. How long will that persist? It seems untenable in the long term. Either the slave labor will leave or dry up, or rebel.
Dubai is attached to the oil age. It's excesses, abuses, etc are forgiven by the world elite because of the flow of oil money. That is going to end. Demand is going to PLUMMET worldwide as EVs displace first consumer transport, then local goods delivery, then long haul ground transport. Somewhere in the middle of "consumer transport" and "local goods delivery" the demand will drop by such a large and extended amount that the price won't really be profitable anymore.
Diversification is obviously the aim, and while this isn't authoritative, I've seen this in action with the bizarre satellite/branch universities Saudi Arabia paid various western universities to set up. Just because you throw money at it doesn't mean it sticks. Those universities couldn't find the people that would do the work of academia beyond the usual bullshit of rubber stamp diplomas that universities currently make sausage with.
The sand will consume it. Dubai has to actively keep sand dunes away. If that stops, and what if a section of a city decays and isn't work keeping the dunes away? Yes, the sand will "consume" it.
The oil kings are attempting the "pivot". They are fat, lazy, and unmotivated.
Dubai is so recently and explosively settled, you may not understand what I mean by decay. Cities evolve, change, decay, and hopefully renew. Dubai is a product of aggressive investment/subsidy by the royalty, directly or not. Parts of the city will decline. Aspects of the city will decline. Decay is inevitable, it's entropy. Cities are like life: they must actively renew themselves or they fade.
Dubai also is basically a modern slave labor state. How long will that persist? It seems untenable in the long term. Either the slave labor will leave or dry up, or rebel.
Dubai is attached to the oil age. It's excesses, abuses, etc are forgiven by the world elite because of the flow of oil money. That is going to end. Demand is going to PLUMMET worldwide as EVs displace first consumer transport, then local goods delivery, then long haul ground transport. Somewhere in the middle of "consumer transport" and "local goods delivery" the demand will drop by such a large and extended amount that the price won't really be profitable anymore.
Diversification is obviously the aim, and while this isn't authoritative, I've seen this in action with the bizarre satellite/branch universities Saudi Arabia paid various western universities to set up. Just because you throw money at it doesn't mean it sticks. Those universities couldn't find the people that would do the work of academia beyond the usual bullshit of rubber stamp diplomas that universities currently make sausage with.
The sand will consume it. Dubai has to actively keep sand dunes away. If that stops, and what if a section of a city decays and isn't work keeping the dunes away? Yes, the sand will "consume" it.
The oil kings are attempting the "pivot". They are fat, lazy, and unmotivated.
I'm 6'6"... I wish you would mention the countries so I can make sure to never go.
Dubai, UAE, basically any supposed theocracy run by sheikhs should be avoided.
Which country?
It's probably because you dressed as local.
Are you western?
I get really bored hearing someone talking about us like this. While your knowledge about Arab countries comes from an all-inclusive trip to Tunisia or something.
The west always plays a big role in keeping dictators all over the place, who don't care about education or anything other than their chair. People are ignorant and if you look fancy or different, even if you are native, they will look at you like that. Not entirely your fault, but your politicians love it, and use their super powers to keep it as it is.
I get really bored hearing someone talking about us like this. While your knowledge about Arab countries comes from an all-inclusive trip to Tunisia or something.
The west always plays a big role in keeping dictators all over the place, who don't care about education or anything other than their chair. People are ignorant and if you look fancy or different, even if you are native, they will look at you like that. Not entirely your fault, but your politicians love it, and use their super powers to keep it as it is.
Or one could see what happened in Tahrir, Koln, Milan. Or the fact that some imams in my country call out unveiled women as prostitutes.
There are issues with women rights in many country. Blaming the west is a way to ignore them.
There are issues with women rights in many country. Blaming the west is a way to ignore them.
I didn't blame the west, I said they play a role. I realize there were a lot of issues before the US become a world leader and even before the British/French colonization.
I will say it in a different way, WE ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY, but you are too blind not to realize that by yourself.
I will say it in a different way, WE ARE NOT YOUR ENEMY, but you are too blind not to realize that by yourself.
I do know who is my enemy and who is not. I have lots of friends coming from these countries. Been there with them. They do not speak like you.
The enemies are roughly Salafia and Ikhwan. They are the ones with the hateful retoric. And they have a huge following.
The enemies are roughly Salafia and Ikhwan. They are the ones with the hateful retoric. And they have a huge following.
> They do not speak like you.
Does this automatically make what I said incorrect?
Does this automatically make what I said incorrect?
Yes it does. Not all critics of the situation of women in the so-called Arab Muslim world are uninformed.
This bad situation also predates western imperialism or Pax Americana.
This bad situation also predates western imperialism or Pax Americana.
What a weird comment full of assumptions and hatred.
Nothing in the parent comment warrants what you said. What happens in practice is that being white in poorer countries makes you stand out and sometimes this comes with negative feelings of being unwanted there.
This is just a fact being told and it doesn’t justify a “you guys and your politics” comment. It’s just to point out, perhaps, that some places are more welcoming of foreigners than others.
Nothing in the parent comment warrants what you said. What happens in practice is that being white in poorer countries makes you stand out and sometimes this comes with negative feelings of being unwanted there.
This is just a fact being told and it doesn’t justify a “you guys and your politics” comment. It’s just to point out, perhaps, that some places are more welcoming of foreigners than others.
Arabs are mixed-race my friend, some of them are white.
Your comment reflects your lack of knowledge about us.
I don't hate western people for being western or white. I respect a lot of them and would love to learn from them.
Some places are more welcoming because people have more knowledge about dealing with foreigners and know more about their culture. So it comes back to education and being open to other cultures as I said, which dictators will never care about. They take money and weapons from you, then tell the people a lot of nonsense about you. People don't really know you. Then when someone tries to tell you this, you say your comment is full of assumptions and hatred.
Also, your media plays a big role in making people see us like animals, watch "bad reel arabs" and it should tell you more about that.
Your comment reflects your lack of knowledge about us.
I don't hate western people for being western or white. I respect a lot of them and would love to learn from them.
Some places are more welcoming because people have more knowledge about dealing with foreigners and know more about their culture. So it comes back to education and being open to other cultures as I said, which dictators will never care about. They take money and weapons from you, then tell the people a lot of nonsense about you. People don't really know you. Then when someone tries to tell you this, you say your comment is full of assumptions and hatred.
Also, your media plays a big role in making people see us like animals, watch "bad reel arabs" and it should tell you more about that.
Hilarious. You continue making assumptions about everyone here. You don’t know my media and you don’t know what I know. You assume I’m talking about Arab countries while I just mentioned “poorer countries”, as if you’re the only one around.
I’m talking out of my own experience in Africa, Asia and South America. I don’t go flashing out money around and I know exactly how I’m seen and how I’m treated in every place I’ve lived in. And no, I‘ve never been in a resort and I live in local housing trying to learn the language. So kindly go f yourself.
I’m talking out of my own experience in Africa, Asia and South America. I don’t go flashing out money around and I know exactly how I’m seen and how I’m treated in every place I’ve lived in. And no, I‘ve never been in a resort and I live in local housing trying to learn the language. So kindly go f yourself.
In my first comment I said "Are you western?", so the rest of the comment goes if he/she was western. And the thread is about Arab countries, so replying while assuming you are talking about Arab countries is also valid.
I am not sure who is full of hatered here, telling me to go f myself while I am trying to say my understanding about a place I know more than you do.
I am not sure who is full of hatered here, telling me to go f myself while I am trying to say my understanding about a place I know more than you do.
I say that because you came out saying you are “tired” of people talking like that and answering with worse behavior. You’re not here to discuss it but just to attack strangers, which is why I’m using this tone.
“Are you western?” is not an acceptable start. How would you like it if I started my comment with: “Are you black?” — regardless of whether you are, which is my point.
“Are you western?” is not an acceptable start. How would you like it if I started my comment with: “Are you black?” — regardless of whether you are, which is my point.
Judging from your comments, you are not in a position to talk about my behaviour.
I asked that, because we always get that from most western people. Western media which is being watched all over the world shape us in a certain way, while they play a role in keeping our countries as it is. You just want to bully and cancel an Arab my friend because you hate us, that's all.
I asked that, because we always get that from most western people. Western media which is being watched all over the world shape us in a certain way, while they play a role in keeping our countries as it is. You just want to bully and cancel an Arab my friend because you hate us, that's all.
Sorry that you feel that way; detach from the media because I feel a lot of anger coming from you towards westerners. I don’t hate you. I just got triggered by your denial of our mistreatment and your whataboutism.
I hope to visit more Arab countries soon and make more friends there.
I hope to visit more Arab countries soon and make more friends there.
I appreciate your feelings. I responded this way because the first comment I responded to which says "I will never visit an Arab country" and "it was pretty much the same everywhere" should have a better analysis before he/she cancel entire countries this way. I am sorry for what they have experienced, but we need to be honest if we want a change to this mad world.
From my point of view, I could say "What a weird comment full of assumptions and hatred" about the parent comment.
I've travelled back and forth from Dubai for business and other emirates and countries and never had that experience.
When you say "fact being told", you actually mean "anecdote being shared".
Nothing from my experience indicates an automatic feeling of hatred towards me and my wife when going to these countries. In fact, the opposite.
And don't get me wrong. I have my issues with these countries and their governments, just like I have my issues with many other countries, but that doesn't mean you dismiss the entire population.
Maybe it's time you engaged with the cultures. I'm sure it'll be "No thanks". Surprise me.
I've travelled back and forth from Dubai for business and other emirates and countries and never had that experience.
When you say "fact being told", you actually mean "anecdote being shared".
Nothing from my experience indicates an automatic feeling of hatred towards me and my wife when going to these countries. In fact, the opposite.
And don't get me wrong. I have my issues with these countries and their governments, just like I have my issues with many other countries, but that doesn't mean you dismiss the entire population.
Maybe it's time you engaged with the cultures. I'm sure it'll be "No thanks". Surprise me.
> Maybe it's time you engaged with the cultures. I'm sure it'll be "No thanks". Surprise me.
I’ll surprise you: English is not my first language, I haven’t been in my home country since 2015, I speak 3 languages fluently, I’m currently living in Indonesia and can already speak my fourth language (although not well). I lived 3-15 months each in more than 10 countries.
You got the wrong person. I know what I’m talking about because I’ve lived it.
I’ll surprise you: English is not my first language, I haven’t been in my home country since 2015, I speak 3 languages fluently, I’m currently living in Indonesia and can already speak my fourth language (although not well). I lived 3-15 months each in more than 10 countries.
You got the wrong person. I know what I’m talking about because I’ve lived it.
You mean you've lived in an enviroment where these things tend to happen.
Maybe it's time you up the standard of your associates. Those standards are high and low in all countries. It's your choice to associate or tolerate them or find those that have a higher standard.
As said, my experiences have been different.
Good luck,
Maybe it's time you up the standard of your associates. Those standards are high and low in all countries. It's your choice to associate or tolerate them or find those that have a higher standard.
As said, my experiences have been different.
Good luck,
Wow, bulling people all over the place.
> I lived 3-15 months each in more than 10 countries.
Is that supposed to mean that you know those countries more than natives?
> I lived 3-15 months each in more than 10 countries.
Is that supposed to mean that you know those countries more than natives?
Who mentioned you?
You’re completely out of context. I’m just replying to the parent suggesting I don’t engage with the cultures.
All I need to tell you is that I’ve been stared at, followed, called names, harassed in a number of countries, and many of them were Arab. Go figure.
You’re completely out of context. I’m just replying to the parent suggesting I don’t engage with the cultures.
All I need to tell you is that I’ve been stared at, followed, called names, harassed in a number of countries, and many of them were Arab. Go figure.
From what I said in other comments it is clear that I admit that these things do happen.
Where the Western "Oh god, it's so tiring vacationing amongst the sahhhvages. Pass the gin, darling?" reaction still happens, it's based on the perception that in the tourist's home country, the law means what it says, and in the visited country, context is king. That's a useful adjustment to make. However, law enforcement in the West seems to be catching up in that respect.
For those who did not bother to read the article, it is about fraud during the financial crisis. I feel sad for Cornelius and wish he is set free. As a resident of Dubai for 30 years, I am always curious to learn things that I may have missed about 'my city', yet this article is misleading in many ways, its few first paragraph where it states that Ryan Cornelius 'thought the authorities had simply made a mistake;' Really? He has taken a loan to complete a project in Dubai yet he took the money for a project in Pakistan. Later the writer says'Cornelius’s business forged invoices for items such as furniture and building materials to match the investment capital being funnelled to the Plantation. A later civil case, brought by dib in Britain, concluded that Cornelius was “fully implicated” in the creation of fabricated invoices to perpetrate a fraud'.
The Economist used to be a decent publication with great journalism, unfortunately that is not the case anymore.
If you read long enough, they start a section with "Cornelius undoubtedly committed fraud." I think the bigger takeaway is the lack of the rule of law. The crime he committed only carried a three-year jail term. This was later increased by trumping up the charge to 'fraud against the government' (because the government owned a minority stake in the bank) and then he was held in prison even beyond that term because he still owed payment on the loan despite the bank repossessing collateral worth several times the loan amount.
One of my additional takeaways here though is the failure of the British Foreign Office. Part of the service I expect my embassy to provide is assistance if I were to get caught up in a foreign legal system, even if this is only to connect me with a local lawyer. I also expect them to exert diplomatic pressure if the local courts or prosecutors are applying a double standard to foreigners.
One of my additional takeaways here though is the failure of the British Foreign Office. Part of the service I expect my embassy to provide is assistance if I were to get caught up in a foreign legal system, even if this is only to connect me with a local lawyer. I also expect them to exert diplomatic pressure if the local courts or prosecutors are applying a double standard to foreigners.
[deleted]
It is less about fraud and more about the existence of draconian laws (imprisoning debtors) in a place that professes modernity and manipulation of or utter disregard for said laws by those in high places. All parties including the main lender knew about the irregularities you cited, yet they agreed to restructure the loan. The man's fraud charge normally carries a 3 year sentence but he's still in prison 13 years later because his sentence got extended based on the bank's request.
Imprisoning debtors has been a request from British banks to operate in the country. Yes, banks wield vast powers but when you are playing with billions you gotta pay to play .I lost my life savings in that crisis, for no reason at all on my part. It was the greed of banks and many fraudsters .
I was rightfully imprisoned in Dubai, which is very rare to admit, I was drunk on a public beach and kissing my girlfriend in Ramadan, in jail for 24 hours, every prisoner there claimed to be innocent, even a Russian mafia thug, that was as hilarious as this article form the Economist.
" I was drunk on a public beach and kissing my girlfriend in Ramadan,"
Oh man, the trifecta - Alchohol, Ramadan+Beach + With a woman not a member of your family. In the three+ months I was in Dubai in 2015, I was nervous even shaking hands in a business meeting with a woman (and obviously would never do so with a local woman, couldn't even be in an elevator alone with one) - was instructed very strictly about appropriate behavior during Ramadan (don't expose your knees on the beach).
Counter Intuitively, I've never been in any city in the world where the hotel lounges were so aggressive in serving alcohol. I ended up drinking more alcohol in Dubai in a month than I would the rest of the year in other cities around the world.
Oh man, the trifecta - Alchohol, Ramadan+Beach + With a woman not a member of your family. In the three+ months I was in Dubai in 2015, I was nervous even shaking hands in a business meeting with a woman (and obviously would never do so with a local woman, couldn't even be in an elevator alone with one) - was instructed very strictly about appropriate behavior during Ramadan (don't expose your knees on the beach).
Counter Intuitively, I've never been in any city in the world where the hotel lounges were so aggressive in serving alcohol. I ended up drinking more alcohol in Dubai in a month than I would the rest of the year in other cities around the world.
[deleted]
> I was rightfully imprisoned in Dubai, which is very rare to admit, I was drunk on a public beach and kissing my girlfriend in Ramadan, in jail for 24 hours
Many western people think they can just go anywhere and expect laws to work the same as they do at home. I would not go to a country with such insanity but if you do, observe the local laws and customs. They don’t put up 100s of scary posters at the Thai border for nothing for instance, tourists seem to blatantly break these religious rules and they will face consequences. Same with a lot of Middle East, African and Asian countries. Just do your research or simply do not go; it is not like Europe or the US, although of course for most people it feels like it because they don’t get caught (by pure luck; I doubt most holidaying for a week in Dubai know about this) when they kiss on Ramadan.
Many western people think they can just go anywhere and expect laws to work the same as they do at home. I would not go to a country with such insanity but if you do, observe the local laws and customs. They don’t put up 100s of scary posters at the Thai border for nothing for instance, tourists seem to blatantly break these religious rules and they will face consequences. Same with a lot of Middle East, African and Asian countries. Just do your research or simply do not go; it is not like Europe or the US, although of course for most people it feels like it because they don’t get caught (by pure luck; I doubt most holidaying for a week in Dubai know about this) when they kiss on Ramadan.
I think the worst part is that the British courts supported the UAE ones, I dont understand why at all.
Yeah, they really buried the admission of fraud pretty deep in the article. They forged invoices and spent 342m on unauthorized riskier projects. Sounds like the sentence may be excessive, but not the conviction.
To me at least, the issue is less about his guilt, and more about the lack of due process. In this case he was guilty, but in many others the lack of due process provides a way of punishing someone without any oversight or fair treatment and trial.
Because it isn't really relevant if he was guilty or not. Being arrested for a crime, forced to sign a document in a language you don't understand, no access to legal or diplomatic representation, repeatedly denied any hearing or appeal, and charged with a crime retroactively is what is being questioned.
This article is not about someone's innocence, it's about the system and processes, some of which are considered illegal by the UAE's own constitution.
This article is not about someone's innocence, it's about the system and processes, some of which are considered illegal by the UAE's own constitution.
But the article is written in a deceptive way and appears to rely totally on the testimony of a man they admit was a large scale fraudster, implying that many of the things it claims may be false.
The hook in the article is the following claim: "foreigners doing business in Dubai are often unaware that local politicians and businessmen – elite figures are often both – may use the courts to pursue vendettas, settle scores or raid assets they covet. Even the smallest debt can lead to years in jail. Cornelius is just one of thousands of expats who are either imprisoned in Dubai after falling foul of the emirate’s draconian legal system."
So they are presenting Cornelius as an innocent, almost random person with a small debt, who is merely an example of what could happen to anyone doing business in Dubai. That's a lot of people and thus a topic of general interest.
Later on we learn that in fact Cornelius was even by his own admission a massive fraudster, operating in the hundreds of millions range. Yes, Dubai's court system sounds like a joke. Not a good look for them. But this guy is hardly a source of generalizable lessons that might interest other people especially as it becomes clear later in the article that he appears to have been specifically targeted by the Sheikh himself.
I'm actually quite appalled at how far the Economist has fallen. I haven't read it for years and didn't expect such a manipulatively written article from them.
The hook in the article is the following claim: "foreigners doing business in Dubai are often unaware that local politicians and businessmen – elite figures are often both – may use the courts to pursue vendettas, settle scores or raid assets they covet. Even the smallest debt can lead to years in jail. Cornelius is just one of thousands of expats who are either imprisoned in Dubai after falling foul of the emirate’s draconian legal system."
So they are presenting Cornelius as an innocent, almost random person with a small debt, who is merely an example of what could happen to anyone doing business in Dubai. That's a lot of people and thus a topic of general interest.
Later on we learn that in fact Cornelius was even by his own admission a massive fraudster, operating in the hundreds of millions range. Yes, Dubai's court system sounds like a joke. Not a good look for them. But this guy is hardly a source of generalizable lessons that might interest other people especially as it becomes clear later in the article that he appears to have been specifically targeted by the Sheikh himself.
I'm actually quite appalled at how far the Economist has fallen. I haven't read it for years and didn't expect such a manipulatively written article from them.
I think when sums go over what local worker can earn in their lifetime. The life in prison is fully justified. That sounds to me as reasonable standard.
The problem isn't that Cornelius went to prison. The problem is the way he is being treated, whether or not he is guilty is entirely irrelevant.
> The Economist used to be a decent publication with great journalism, unfortunately that is not the case anymore.
How come? Are you saying that they left something out or twisted the facts?
> The Economist used to be a decent publication with great journalism, unfortunately that is not the case anymore.
How come? Are you saying that they left something out or twisted the facts?
> I've read of women being raped and then being charged for reporting it which essentially admits sex outside of marriage
That's more true of Saudi Arabia, than UAE. The first thing you are told to tell your female relatives is to never ever travel alone outside in SA, anywhere, as the police can and do use that as an excuse to arrest them and molest or rape them. The reverse also happens - some rich womenfolk often seduce their male servants / drivers to have sex with them. If the guy wants to stop, some of the women blackmail them with threat to report them for attempted rape. (Source: one of my distant relative who worked as a driver in a Saudi household).
That's more true of Saudi Arabia, than UAE. The first thing you are told to tell your female relatives is to never ever travel alone outside in SA, anywhere, as the police can and do use that as an excuse to arrest them and molest or rape them. The reverse also happens - some rich womenfolk often seduce their male servants / drivers to have sex with them. If the guy wants to stop, some of the women blackmail them with threat to report them for attempted rape. (Source: one of my distant relative who worked as a driver in a Saudi household).
> That's more true of Saudi Arabia, than UAE
It was in UEA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Gali
It was in UEA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Gali
Also Qatar.
from https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10538379/Female-Wor...:
from https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10538379/Female-Wor...:
A female World Cup official is facing a sentence of 100 lashes and seven years in jail for 'extramarital sex' after she reported being raped while working in Qatar.
Paola Schietekat, 28, from Mexico, was working for the World Cup organising committee when she complained that she was raped by an associate who broke into her apartment and threatened to kill her.
She reported the June 6, 2021 attack to the Qatari authorities, who responded by accusing her of having an affair and charged her with 'extramarital sex', which is illegal in the Gulf state.
Schietekat was told by lawyers that one way of avoiding conviction was to marry her attacker but instead decided to flee the country, leaving behind what she called her 'dream job'.
>There is no rule of law
In San Francisco if someone walks into your shop and steals less than $950 worth of goods there's pretty much nothing you can do about it; is that rule of law?
In San Francisco if someone walks into your shop and steals less than $950 worth of goods there's pretty much nothing you can do about it; is that rule of law?
Yes, that is literally a written law that is being properly followed. Although the end result may be questionable, there is a legal framework by which disputes could be reasonably resolved, while trying to preserve the rights of all parties involved.
In other places you have no such thing and, trust me, things are much worse.
In other places you have no such thing and, trust me, things are much worse.
That is not the law. The law is that such theft is a misdemeanor which caries up to 6 months of jail time and a fine of up to $1000.
They are not prosecuted in San Francisco because the DA chooses not to do so.
They are not prosecuted in San Francisco because the DA chooses not to do so.
Why does the DA choose not to?
Because promising not to is how he got elected. In other words, a left wing political coalition that wasn't able to get the law changed via the normal routes were able to eliminate the rule of law instead.
In the article, it's mentioned that people there are held in jail for decades for debts below $1000. That's the "debt trap" in the title.
I'd argue that I'd rather let someone steal than let them rot in jail for such a long time, for such a low monetary value, be it from debt or from theft. I understand you may disagree, that's why we do politics.
Additionally, which country has the best "rule of law", comparatively? Talking in absolutes in that regard is moot in my opinion.
I'd argue that I'd rather let someone steal than let them rot in jail for such a long time, for such a low monetary value, be it from debt or from theft. I understand you may disagree, that's why we do politics.
Additionally, which country has the best "rule of law", comparatively? Talking in absolutes in that regard is moot in my opinion.
> In the article, it's mentioned that people there are held in jail for decades for debts below $1000. That's the "debt trap" in the title.
Eh, lots of people are in jail in the US primarily due to their inability to pay court fees. Many because they couldn't pay the public defender fees.[1] Lots of cases where the accumulation of court fees dwarfs the financial costs of their original crime, and are punished much more for not being able to pay for fees than for their original crime.
Oh, and in some states they suspend your driver's license for nonpayment of these fees. This makes it even harder to work and earn money.
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/government_public/publica...
[1] Many wrongly assume that "the courts will provide one for you" means they're free. They often aren't.
Eh, lots of people are in jail in the US primarily due to their inability to pay court fees. Many because they couldn't pay the public defender fees.[1] Lots of cases where the accumulation of court fees dwarfs the financial costs of their original crime, and are punished much more for not being able to pay for fees than for their original crime.
Oh, and in some states they suspend your driver's license for nonpayment of these fees. This makes it even harder to work and earn money.
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/government_public/publica...
[1] Many wrongly assume that "the courts will provide one for you" means they're free. They often aren't.
I though debtors prisons were supposed to be unconstitutional.
>>I'd argue that I'd rather let someone steal than let them rot in jail for such a long time, for such a low monetary value, be it from debt or from theft.
There is a middle ground between these two extremes. Also, if you want to compare costs, you have to factor in the deterrence effect of the latter, which will translate to much less lost in theft, and in additional store security.
There is a middle ground between these two extremes. Also, if you want to compare costs, you have to factor in the deterrence effect of the latter, which will translate to much less lost in theft, and in additional store security.
Why shouldn't it be?
Rule of law basically means laws apply to everyone the same.
Rule of law basically means laws apply to everyone the same.
The right not no have your stuff stolen doesn't apply to you if you own a store
GP said laws not rights.
Your rights can be infringed by any person on Earth at any time they please. But then, laws can be invoked to make said person stop and to apply the appropriate punishment/reparations.
Your rights can be infringed by any person on Earth at any time they please. But then, laws can be invoked to make said person stop and to apply the appropriate punishment/reparations.
And which law is that?
All citizens of the United States shall have the same right, in every State and Territory, as is enjoyed by white citizens thereof to inherit, purchase, lease, sell, hold, and convey real and personal property.
(R.S. § 1978.)
+
Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia. (R.S. § 1979; Pub. L. 96–170, § 1, Dec. 29, 1979, 93 Stat. 1284; Pub. L. 104–317, title III, § 309(c), Oct. 19, 1996, 110 Stat. 3853.)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1982
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1983
+
Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia. (R.S. § 1979; Pub. L. 96–170, § 1, Dec. 29, 1979, 93 Stat. 1284; Pub. L. 104–317, title III, § 309(c), Oct. 19, 1996, 110 Stat. 3853.)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1982
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/1983
It's pretty clear that both you and logicchains are here to concern troll, nothing more.
San Francisco is definitely terrible right now, but even so, having people in jail who shouldn't be is way, way worse than having people out of jail who shouldn't be.
So you don't recommend even for just travelling? It is a safe country for tourists?
I've been as a tourist and had expat family live there for ~15 years. It's safe until it's not. Any unexpected confrontation or interaction with the officials can go sideways quick because they will fabricate whatever story fits their preferred reality and subject you to the consequences of it. The driving example is the most easily discussed because it's common to witness the locals simply not following laws or basic safety. This is like rich guy in a lambo doing 3x the speed limit and deciding to drive the wrong direction and does quick and unexpected U turn causing an accident. You see this stuff regularly. But, he's not at fault because of his Emirati status and probably some level of caste system within that I don't fully understand. He could literally wreck his car, cause a fatality in the process, and just walk away from it with limited questioning from officials. The officials will find a way to explain it that does not cause bad PR for an Emirati.
It's best to have a handler. We had a guy that was a fixer. He worked for my family's employer technically and was available to all the expat employees in Dubai, but he was like the well connected guy you have on speed dial and call immediately if anything occurs. He'd swoop in and money would change hands and/or a phone call would be made and everything would magically be solved. I think in the 15 years they ended up calling him about 10 times and they're all insane stories over beers. Luckily, the few weeks I was there things were pretty quiet.
It's best to have a handler. We had a guy that was a fixer. He worked for my family's employer technically and was available to all the expat employees in Dubai, but he was like the well connected guy you have on speed dial and call immediately if anything occurs. He'd swoop in and money would change hands and/or a phone call would be made and everything would magically be solved. I think in the 15 years they ended up calling him about 10 times and they're all insane stories over beers. Luckily, the few weeks I was there things were pretty quiet.
How did your employer find and hire such a fixer? Were they a local employer?
Big Oil. They had lots of folks making expat life safe/comfortable and obviously tons of political influence.
He was probably technically a contractor so the company had separation from the bribes that took place. Probably not practical to find someone like that for a short vacation but if you’re an expat or spending an extended time there you could find someone like this. It’s not cheap. Sounds horrible, but At the very least, hire a guide to be with you and take the fall for anything that happens. Mostly this means Hire a driver and don’t operate a vehicle. Other things are pretty low risk if you’re just engaging in typical tourist stuff in typical tourist areas.
He was probably technically a contractor so the company had separation from the bribes that took place. Probably not practical to find someone like that for a short vacation but if you’re an expat or spending an extended time there you could find someone like this. It’s not cheap. Sounds horrible, but At the very least, hire a guide to be with you and take the fall for anything that happens. Mostly this means Hire a driver and don’t operate a vehicle. Other things are pretty low risk if you’re just engaging in typical tourist stuff in typical tourist areas.
The first example seems more like a strict rule of law instead of no rule of law.
If you are afraid of the lack of rule of law, there are not many countries we need to avoid. Japan has a 99.995% of inculpation after their police interview. And that has to do with the fact that their interview can lawfully last for 22 days, renewable. You can’t even avoid USA: 95% of jailmates are there upon self-admission of guilt without external proof, ie. without objective proof besides self-incrimination.
Incorrect: Japan has a 99.95% conviction rate for cases that go to trial. This is partly achieved by lengthy pretrial detention determined to extract confessions out of people, but equally importantly by not prosecuting any cases that are less than watertight (read: the culprit has already confessed).
This raises a good point. A just state should be efficient at identifying crimes; an unjust state can charge suspects who will never be convicted, or harass them without charging them.
Man people really see some blog post about Japanese law by a person who doesn’t speak the language and think it’s some 1984 style country.
In all honesty you can basically apologize out of a lot of crimes and police generally don’t bother with anything else unless there’s video evidence, they catch you in the act, or you’re a high profile person involved in a high profile act.
Just never get caught with drugs in your possession, and if you get caught with personal amounts, apologize and cry. Not kidding.
In all honesty you can basically apologize out of a lot of crimes and police generally don’t bother with anything else unless there’s video evidence, they catch you in the act, or you’re a high profile person involved in a high profile act.
Just never get caught with drugs in your possession, and if you get caught with personal amounts, apologize and cry. Not kidding.
Too bad they don't teach the crying technique before you visit! The young man I'm familiar with was locked up in holding (not sent to prison) for six months then put on a plane to his home country and told never to come back. That was a REALLY expensive joint.
It’s basically the inverse of the US system.
In the US, unless they have a solid case and offer a plea bargain, you’re better off not talking to cops and staying silent until they give up. In Japan, once you know they have somewhat of a case, you’re better off making it easy for the police and immediately apologizing. They mostly just drag people who don’t comply and haven’t really learned their lesson (it’s assumed you won’t be dumb enough to make the same mistake twice).
Most first time drug cases end with an apology, crying, and being let go. Americans make the mistake of thinking not talking will help, so police hold them until they do. It can help in bigger crimes, though, since if the evidence is hard to prove, they’ll just hold you for a while and hope you’ll confess, but if not, often let you go instead of risk losing at a trial.
In the US, unless they have a solid case and offer a plea bargain, you’re better off not talking to cops and staying silent until they give up. In Japan, once you know they have somewhat of a case, you’re better off making it easy for the police and immediately apologizing. They mostly just drag people who don’t comply and haven’t really learned their lesson (it’s assumed you won’t be dumb enough to make the same mistake twice).
Most first time drug cases end with an apology, crying, and being let go. Americans make the mistake of thinking not talking will help, so police hold them until they do. It can help in bigger crimes, though, since if the evidence is hard to prove, they’ll just hold you for a while and hope you’ll confess, but if not, often let you go instead of risk losing at a trial.
What do the Japanese have against drugs?
Japanese drug prosecution is about as strict as American child porn prosecution, with the same para-judicial stigma about possession of it. If you are caught with drugs in Japan, you are going to be doing hard time, and even when you get out of jail people will not want to associate with you. In the rare case where the police prosecute you without evidence, you're still going to wind up spending months in a holding cell waiting for exoneration, and have to explain to everyone in the meantime that you were falsely accused of drug possession.
(The inverse is also true: Japan is rather lax about CSAM possession, about to the same degree as America is lax about weed possession. It's technically a crime but most people caught will be let off with a fine and a warning.)
(The inverse is also true: Japan is rather lax about CSAM possession, about to the same degree as America is lax about weed possession. It's technically a crime but most people caught will be let off with a fine and a warning.)
Maybe they observed what widespread drug use did to China in 19th century, and what it is doing to US now, and are trying to nip that in the bud.
What is Cannabis doing to the USA now? I’m assuming the “don’t get caught with drugs in Japan” is referring to soft drugs. Maybe I’m wrong.
http://fileserver.idpc.net/library/The-history-current-state...
http://fileserver.idpc.net/library/The-history-current-state...
You know I'm not talking about cannabis.
You’re incorrect as to the US, and I suspect as to Japan as well. Lots of criminals in America plead guilty, but that doesn’t mean that there’s no “external proof” of guilt. Cops are lazy and criminals are dumb. So what you end up with in nearly all cases is that cops make arrests in easy cases with tons of evidence. Confronted with the video tape, cell phone records, etc., the accused then pleads guilty. Rarely do you see the kind of cases you hear about on Podcasts where guilt turns on circumstantial evidences and confessions. I’ve seen this from inside the court system.
My wife had a homicide trial where prosecutors had a complete video tape record of the accused shooting the victim and driving back to his house. The trial was just cutting from one CCTV feed to the next as the accused drove around town. The jury found him guilty—because of course they did.
My wife had a homicide trial where prosecutors had a complete video tape record of the accused shooting the victim and driving back to his house. The trial was just cutting from one CCTV feed to the next as the accused drove around town. The jury found him guilty—because of course they did.
On this topic, this literally happened this week in New Jersey:
https://twitter.com/closequarters92/status/14936736252784558...
What does this have to do with the evidence supporting criminal convictions?
At what point would you waive the right to a trial-by-jury? I think about that from time to time; if I'm accused of something, what crimes are less sympathetic to my peers than to a judge?
Your peers aren’t sympathetic to crime at all. A 2014 sentencing project report found that supermajorities of people (including both white and Black people, by the way) believe that the criminal justice system is “not harsh enough.”
Japan has a very strong rule of law. It is just that the law is a bit medieval.
All I ever hear is horror stories about this place: environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot. I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.
I say this as somebody who lived in one of those Middle Eastern countries for a good period of my life. I'm not a white person and at that time I didn't have a US/European passport, so I didn't lead an extra privalaged life there.
Here's what you can hear about the USA.
1)Endless suburban sprawl, resulting in massive environmental destruction. Illegal immigrants heavily involved in the construction industry, leading to mass exploitation
2)Structural racism
3)Human rights on a sliding scale, with rich white rapists getting no jail sentences, and poor black people and immigrants going to jail for minor offenses.
4)Rich consumers pushing environmental and human rights issues to poor countries where people are exploited to build your $1000 phone and $250 shoe.
5)Lots of places where if you go and say "I'm an Atheist, Jesus is not God" will likely result in violence against you
6)Corrupt legal system, heavily favoring corporations and rich people
7)Absurdly hot in parts of it, Absurdly cold in other parts of it.
>I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.
Lots of people probably feel that way about the USA based on the news.
UAE (Dubai, Abu Dhabi), and other countries in that region, have a lot of issues. I'll be the first to admit it having had second class status there. But I can't help but feel that a lot of Western news outlets love to bash that part of the world because it plays into how a lot of people like to feel like the rest of the world is a shithole.
Here's what you can hear about the USA.
1)Endless suburban sprawl, resulting in massive environmental destruction. Illegal immigrants heavily involved in the construction industry, leading to mass exploitation
2)Structural racism
3)Human rights on a sliding scale, with rich white rapists getting no jail sentences, and poor black people and immigrants going to jail for minor offenses.
4)Rich consumers pushing environmental and human rights issues to poor countries where people are exploited to build your $1000 phone and $250 shoe.
5)Lots of places where if you go and say "I'm an Atheist, Jesus is not God" will likely result in violence against you
6)Corrupt legal system, heavily favoring corporations and rich people
7)Absurdly hot in parts of it, Absurdly cold in other parts of it.
>I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.
Lots of people probably feel that way about the USA based on the news.
UAE (Dubai, Abu Dhabi), and other countries in that region, have a lot of issues. I'll be the first to admit it having had second class status there. But I can't help but feel that a lot of Western news outlets love to bash that part of the world because it plays into how a lot of people like to feel like the rest of the world is a shithole.
"a lot of people like to feel like the rest of the world is a shithole."
I wouldn't say that's my bias - I like to travel so I like to feel like the rest of the world is welcoming. However, clear problems that are different from what I'm used to do make me uncomfortable
>I like to travel so I like to feel like the rest of the world is welcoming.
I'm not making any assumptions about you in this post, but just making a comment.
I think the challenge here is that "welcoming" is relative to who you are, including your financial status and skin color.
There are countries people talk about on HN and Reddit which are super welcoming, everybody is friendly, great for remote work, taking an inexpensive vacation, etc.
I once traveled to one of those countries with a white friend. It was comical to see how differently we'd be treated even though we'd be walking next to each other on the road or sitting together at a restaurant. We're clearly friends and hanging out. He'd get his ass kissed and I'd be treated like a non-entity. Our English, human interaction skills, and financial status were pretty much the same. It's not like anybody could tell his passport or mine by looking at us.
Again, UAE and other countries in that region have lots of problems. So this isn't negating what you are saying.
I'm not making any assumptions about you in this post, but just making a comment.
I think the challenge here is that "welcoming" is relative to who you are, including your financial status and skin color.
There are countries people talk about on HN and Reddit which are super welcoming, everybody is friendly, great for remote work, taking an inexpensive vacation, etc.
I once traveled to one of those countries with a white friend. It was comical to see how differently we'd be treated even though we'd be walking next to each other on the road or sitting together at a restaurant. We're clearly friends and hanging out. He'd get his ass kissed and I'd be treated like a non-entity. Our English, human interaction skills, and financial status were pretty much the same. It's not like anybody could tell his passport or mine by looking at us.
Again, UAE and other countries in that region have lots of problems. So this isn't negating what you are saying.
Thanks for this comment. As a white-ish person who has mostly traveled with other white people, I was totally blind to this and made the same judgement: that these countries are just inherently welcoming to foreigners.
Try dressing like a slob and borderline bum next time you visit the city next to where you live, then do the same dressed in an expensive tailored suit and matching watch(just get some gaudy knockoff on amazon, its not like anyone can actually tell). The difference in how you are treated is just nuts. Its not that these countries are inherently welcoming to foreigners, its that the service sector of pretty much all countries are welcoming to people who are very wealthy. (or rather people who can plausibly fake it)
If I like to travel I am less likely to focus on "wanting places to be shitholes", that's all I meant in your quoted text
Out of curiosity, which country was that?
I don't know about number 7 - most of the USA is actually pretty nicely temperate. There are some exceptions like death valley (3000 sq mi) or the chihuahan dessert (about 25000 sq mi in the USA), or some parts of Alaska, but we're talking about a very small area of a 3.7 million sq mi country. If those aren't your thing, I do recommend skipping them. UAE is only 32000 sq mi and it's all very very hot.
Otherwise that's all fairly accurate. But Disney world is pretty damn great.
Otherwise that's all fairly accurate. But Disney world is pretty damn great.
Texas is 100+ for three months of the year, and Minneapolis had an average of about 10 degrees this January, with lows in the -10s, I believe. And I think Mississippi in the summer is probably pretty miserable, it's probably as close to 100+ as the humidity will let it. I think most of the American West is about 100 in the summer and cold in the winter, due to not having the ocean to mitigate the temperature.
The northern tier of states, especially inland, are quite cold and snowy for months out of the year. If you're a local, you're used to it and likely enjoy aspects of it. But for someone who isn't familiar with it, months of regular temperatures below freezing, ice and snow, and frequent drops to well below zero Farenheit, are pretty miserable.
[deleted]
It's not about whether tge statements are representative. It's about whether people believe them. It just so happens the statements are technically true.
Qatar is not Dubai, but when was the last time you heard of 6,500 migrant workers dying building a group of soccer stadiums/olympic village/large public works in the USA? That is to say, that region's rep comes from a bit more than stereotypes or a filtering bubble.
Also, 8: almost any idiot can own a gun & ammunition, and far too many idiots do.
Fortunately, we live in a country where idiots have the same rights as those who think are smarter than them.
I, for one, am glad we aren't going back to racist gating of citizenship privileges...behind literacy tests, or economic means
I, for one, am glad we aren't going back to racist gating of citizenship privileges...behind literacy tests, or economic means
I wasn't suggesting idiots have different rights to anyone else, or in fact that I myself am not an idiot.
I, for one, am glad I live on a continent where mass shootings are a rare occurrence. One-off shootings too, and people accidentally hurting themselves with the things, for that matter.
I, for one, am glad I live on a continent where mass shootings are a rare occurrence. One-off shootings too, and people accidentally hurting themselves with the things, for that matter.
I guess the issue for me is that there are places where people greatly exaggerate their claims, and there are places where those seemingly exaggerated claims are legitimate.
Given that, I don't think I have ever read anything good about the UAE, either editorial or comments from expats. Maybe from insta influencers who wanted to pad their hollow "luxury life" existance.
Given that, I don't think I have ever read anything good about the UAE, either editorial or comments from expats. Maybe from insta influencers who wanted to pad their hollow "luxury life" existance.
>Given that, I don't think I have ever read anything good about the UAE
There are 10 million people living in the UAE, 90% of which are expats. Lots of them live comfortable lives in the sense that they do what most people do - get jobs, have kids, do their daily routine, meet their friends, and all that regular stuff. They live normal regular lives and find fulfillment in those things.
It's no different than anywhere else in the world. If you live in UAE you'll find plenty of positive stories.
One thing I always laugh about is that my parents (who live outside of the USA) will text me asking about housing prices in my area, bad weather (that happened in a different state), some protest downtown (that I didn't even hear about), riots from police brutality and if it affects me, etc. But nobody seems to know that my neighborhood had a pot-luck where all the kids were having fun and the parents got a chance to meet each other and get to know the new people in the community.
It's no different living outside of UAE and hearing about UAE.
There are 10 million people living in the UAE, 90% of which are expats. Lots of them live comfortable lives in the sense that they do what most people do - get jobs, have kids, do their daily routine, meet their friends, and all that regular stuff. They live normal regular lives and find fulfillment in those things.
It's no different than anywhere else in the world. If you live in UAE you'll find plenty of positive stories.
One thing I always laugh about is that my parents (who live outside of the USA) will text me asking about housing prices in my area, bad weather (that happened in a different state), some protest downtown (that I didn't even hear about), riots from police brutality and if it affects me, etc. But nobody seems to know that my neighborhood had a pot-luck where all the kids were having fun and the parents got a chance to meet each other and get to know the new people in the community.
It's no different living outside of UAE and hearing about UAE.
How many of those expats are working slave-like conditions, is the greater point that ought to be discussed. (Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Philippines, Iraq, you name it).
If 10 percent of the country's population is native, they are surely benefiting from subsidized education, housing, preferential (read: racist) employment, free land, and so on.
It's VERY different from most places in the world, except for other sister nations that depend on oil wealth and have the same luxuries in immigrant exploitation.
If 10 percent of the country's population is native, they are surely benefiting from subsidized education, housing, preferential (read: racist) employment, free land, and so on.
It's VERY different from most places in the world, except for other sister nations that depend on oil wealth and have the same luxuries in immigrant exploitation.
> How many of those expats are working slave-like conditions
Given that all the Indians I know think positively of Dubai, I'm inclined to think that it's very few of them, because surely they'd hear about slave conditions from people who went there before anyone else.
If you've ever been to Dubai, you'd know it's full of people from the subcontinent. Why would it be so full of them if a substantial fraction of them are kept as slaves? It just doesn't make sense. It's mostly the Western white crowd, as opposed to non-white immigrant populations, who think these sorts of things about Dubai.
edit: example of what I mean: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30387801
Dismissing all those people looking for a better life as "slave labor" just doesn't make sense.
Given that all the Indians I know think positively of Dubai, I'm inclined to think that it's very few of them, because surely they'd hear about slave conditions from people who went there before anyone else.
If you've ever been to Dubai, you'd know it's full of people from the subcontinent. Why would it be so full of them if a substantial fraction of them are kept as slaves? It just doesn't make sense. It's mostly the Western white crowd, as opposed to non-white immigrant populations, who think these sorts of things about Dubai.
edit: example of what I mean: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30387801
Dismissing all those people looking for a better life as "slave labor" just doesn't make sense.
Under no circumstances did I claim that "all those people looking for a better life" as "slave labor". I asked an open ended and relatively rhetorical question.
Is 1% acceptable in your book vs. the majority of the workforce being in slave-labor-like conditions?
Is 1% acceptable in your book vs. the majority of the workforce being in slave-labor-like conditions?
> Is 1% acceptable in your book vs. the majority of the workforce being in slave-labor-like conditions?
It's not ideal, but yeah. I definitely wouldn't look down on an entire city for not being able to root out that last 1% of corrupt employers.
It's not ideal, but yeah. I definitely wouldn't look down on an entire city for not being able to root out that last 1% of corrupt employers.
This whole thread is ridiculous. The "I've never heard..." statements are merely statements about the diversity (or lack thereof) sources people get their information from.
I've lived in the Middle East. I know plenty of people who live there, or lived there, and love it. Even those who were forced to leave. I know plenty of others who work very hard to get a good white collar job there, and most who succeed did not regret it.
And this is with full acknowledgment of all the bad things people talk about.
Let it just be a signal that there's more to it than you see. Even more, people don't seem to understand how crappy much of the rest of the world is that Dubai is such a desirable place to live. I know lots of people who would have been stuck in extremely low social mobility situations in their home countries, and who only managed to go up in social class by moving to one of these Middle Eastern countries, and earning good money and by doing honest work - the last of which wasn't an option in their own countries.
I've lived in the Middle East. I know plenty of people who live there, or lived there, and love it. Even those who were forced to leave. I know plenty of others who work very hard to get a good white collar job there, and most who succeed did not regret it.
And this is with full acknowledgment of all the bad things people talk about.
Let it just be a signal that there's more to it than you see. Even more, people don't seem to understand how crappy much of the rest of the world is that Dubai is such a desirable place to live. I know lots of people who would have been stuck in extremely low social mobility situations in their home countries, and who only managed to go up in social class by moving to one of these Middle Eastern countries, and earning good money and by doing honest work - the last of which wasn't an option in their own countries.
>I know lots of people who would have been stuck in extremely low social mobility situations in their home countries, and who only managed to go up in social class by moving to one of these Middle Eastern countries, and earning good money and by doing honest work - the last of which wasn't an option in their own countries.
Honestly, I think this is a really difficult topic to discuss on the internet. It's too easy to misinterpret any "Their situation is awful, but was even worse before" as some sort of a justification, rather than seeing it as just being a statement of how things really are for a lot of people on this planet.
Due to where my family is originally from, I know people in the labor class in UAE who basically scarified their lives and bodies so their children could get an education and a white collar job. It was an terrible choice they had to make. Many people are forced to make the same choices in Western countries, but it's not in the news to the same degree. It's hard to have a rational discourse about life when the choices people have are starvation or suicide in their own country, or a lifetime of manual labor in a foreign country for wages that do nothing for them, but a lot for their families back home.
Honestly, I think this is a really difficult topic to discuss on the internet. It's too easy to misinterpret any "Their situation is awful, but was even worse before" as some sort of a justification, rather than seeing it as just being a statement of how things really are for a lot of people on this planet.
Due to where my family is originally from, I know people in the labor class in UAE who basically scarified their lives and bodies so their children could get an education and a white collar job. It was an terrible choice they had to make. Many people are forced to make the same choices in Western countries, but it's not in the news to the same degree. It's hard to have a rational discourse about life when the choices people have are starvation or suicide in their own country, or a lifetime of manual labor in a foreign country for wages that do nothing for them, but a lot for their families back home.
Your example is a good one. However, I must emphasize that there are a lot of examples that are not in the extremes. People who are not as "low" as laborers but, say, school teachers. Their pay can be well enough that it makes a major improvement to the opportunities their kids have as opposed to had they been a school teacher in their own countries.
It's hard to get a visa to move to the US and teach at an elementary school. Yet you can do that in the Middle East.
It's hard to get a visa to move to the US and teach at an elementary school. Yet you can do that in the Middle East.
Agreed. My comment was mostly because most of the articles people see about work issues in the Middle East are always about the labor class. At least in the West, you don't really see articles about teachers, shopkeepers, business people, and basically countless other professions where people can make a much better living in the Middle East in comparison to their home countries. Not to mention, it can be much safer.
It wasn't even two decades ago that even professions like doctors, dentists, IT did better economically in the Middle East for many people in comparison to their home countries. Engineers making good money in India/China and not working for a consulting company is a pretty recent thing. A lot of that is changing now as other Asian countries are developing economically, but it's easy to forget how things were even a decade ago.
>It's hard to get a visa to move to the US and teach at an elementary school.
Plus, at least the visa situation in the Middle East is clear. It's not that difficult to get a work visa if you have a job offer and you can work as long as you have a job or until you retire. The visa situation in the US is...no comment :)
It wasn't even two decades ago that even professions like doctors, dentists, IT did better economically in the Middle East for many people in comparison to their home countries. Engineers making good money in India/China and not working for a consulting company is a pretty recent thing. A lot of that is changing now as other Asian countries are developing economically, but it's easy to forget how things were even a decade ago.
>It's hard to get a visa to move to the US and teach at an elementary school.
Plus, at least the visa situation in the Middle East is clear. It's not that difficult to get a work visa if you have a job offer and you can work as long as you have a job or until you retire. The visa situation in the US is...no comment :)
You omitted civil asset forfeiture laws and qualified immunity for police.
Does the USA:
1) Arrest you without telling you why? 2) Give you no access to a lawyer? 3) Give you no access to translation? 4) Have a debt system in prison, forcing to pay with money you don't have? 5) Retroactively apply laws? 6) Extend imprisonment indefinitely on made-up charges? 7) Ruled by a monarchy?
All the things you list boil down to pointing out the US system is imperfect, not that the system is bad by its very nature and design. UAE cannot be fixed without changing its ruling and legal system. The US can be fixed by improving its existing systems to make them more fair.
Also, the reason you point the failing of the US systems is because media is reporting on those failures. Not foreign media, local ones.
1) Arrest you without telling you why? 2) Give you no access to a lawyer? 3) Give you no access to translation? 4) Have a debt system in prison, forcing to pay with money you don't have? 5) Retroactively apply laws? 6) Extend imprisonment indefinitely on made-up charges? 7) Ruled by a monarchy?
All the things you list boil down to pointing out the US system is imperfect, not that the system is bad by its very nature and design. UAE cannot be fixed without changing its ruling and legal system. The US can be fixed by improving its existing systems to make them more fair.
Also, the reason you point the failing of the US systems is because media is reporting on those failures. Not foreign media, local ones.
> Human rights on a sliding scale, with rich white rapists getting no jail sentences, and poor black people and immigrants going to jail for minor offenses.
Some things seem to be universal.
Some things seem to be universal.
I find it pretty hilarious that point #7 is even a thing. Coming from (assuming UAE) an area that experiences +100 °F weather for half of the year lol…
[deleted]
[deleted]
In the face of all of this, the US remains the most desirable place to emigrate to. The logical conclusion here is that the impression you have from news is not the complete picture. The US is massive and diverse. If you go by the county level, the US contains the highest HDI areas in the world.
Eh - Dubai is a lot more diverse than the US. A similar comment could be written about it.
Dubai is not more diverse than the US. The largest disapora of essentially every other nation on Earth reside in the US.
there's a curious fact that i see getting overlooked in every one of these discussion. The US - for all its faults, remains a society capable of deep change, confronting its own crimes and one that is fundamentally built around inclusion. all this is to say that the problems of US society as documented and that one is free to read about them if one chooses.
This is not the case in the Arab world, for example. I grew up there and have seen horrors of which there is no documented evidence.
You are correct - despite all its flaws, the USA remains a magnet for talent from around the world.
This is not the case in the Arab world, for example. I grew up there and have seen horrors of which there is no documented evidence.
You are correct - despite all its flaws, the USA remains a magnet for talent from around the world.
Because almost no one who moves to Dubai for a middle class job will ever experience any of the things you’ve listed except for the heat.
What they do experience is earning lots of tax-free money, and a vibrant city life. Obviously those negatives are all present but less of a threat than one might think from the outside.
Perhaps that seems like too much of a risk to some people. But to others, who aren’t living in “heaven-on-earth” first world countries it’s an easy gamble to make.
(Culturally hyper-conservative is especially hilarious for anyone who has been to a Dubai brunch.)
What they do experience is earning lots of tax-free money, and a vibrant city life. Obviously those negatives are all present but less of a threat than one might think from the outside.
Perhaps that seems like too much of a risk to some people. But to others, who aren’t living in “heaven-on-earth” first world countries it’s an easy gamble to make.
(Culturally hyper-conservative is especially hilarious for anyone who has been to a Dubai brunch.)
>no one who moves to Dubai for a middle class job will ever experience any of the things you’ve listed
Sorry, but that is just not true. You're always one mistake away from losing all your rights and going through a miserable experience. This could happen to anyone who is basically not royalty or extremely high ranks, I've experienced it first-hand.
Everyone knows this, so people are quite afraid to mess up, at any level. Ask any foreigner who has lived there (not just visited) for a while.
Sorry, but that is just not true. You're always one mistake away from losing all your rights and going through a miserable experience. This could happen to anyone who is basically not royalty or extremely high ranks, I've experienced it first-hand.
Everyone knows this, so people are quite afraid to mess up, at any level. Ask any foreigner who has lived there (not just visited) for a while.
How does it compare to Singapore in that aspect? I get the same impression there when people talk about how it all works really well until it doesn't.
Dubai's much more honest about what it is; an absolutely monarchy that doesn't pretend to be a democracy. As long as you don't piss off the king or the locals, you're pretty much free to mind your own business and do whatever you want, especially if you're indirectly contributing to the king's real estate portfolio/the city's development. Singapore on the other hand is run by hall monitor types who believe they should have a say in every little aspect of how you live your life.
Poor South Asian migrant workers are also treated better in Dubai. In Singapore they have a separate class of work visa with very limited rights, and during covid they were locked down in their worker dormitories for over a year, unable to interact with the rest of society.
Poor South Asian migrant workers are also treated better in Dubai. In Singapore they have a separate class of work visa with very limited rights, and during covid they were locked down in their worker dormitories for over a year, unable to interact with the rest of society.
Fwiw, a high-school friend of mine had a t-shirt that said "Singapore: It's a Fine City!" and underneath, it listed various legal offenses (like gum-chewing) and their fines.
IIRC you can chew gum in singapore, you just can't buy or sell it (similar to weed laws in certain U.S. states).
Singapore made a concession to allow Wrigley's sugar-free gum and nicotine gum when they entered into a free trade agreement with the US [1], but it's overpriced and rarely in stock at pharmacies.
[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB108629672446328324
[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB108629672446328324
Singapore is much more laid back. Usually the worst that will happen with foreigners is they deport them. Apart from drug dealing which carries a death penalty but they only do that when the person is guilty so don't deal drugs there!
I thought they were quite long suffering with "Briton arrested for not wearing a facemask in Singapore' because he said he didn't believe in them and wouldn't do it. I think he was jailed a couple of weeks and kicked out https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9864365/Briton-arre...
They can be a bit harsh with asking foreigners to leave if they have a work permit and lose their job. I think you get 30 days to go which is a bit of an upheaval if you are fired.
I thought they were quite long suffering with "Briton arrested for not wearing a facemask in Singapore' because he said he didn't believe in them and wouldn't do it. I think he was jailed a couple of weeks and kicked out https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9864365/Briton-arre...
They can be a bit harsh with asking foreigners to leave if they have a work permit and lose their job. I think you get 30 days to go which is a bit of an upheaval if you are fired.
> but they only do that when the person is guilty
Hmm..
Hmm..
I think it's more that drug limits and their corresponding punishments are clearly laid out in the law [1].
Singapore's police force and public prosecutor also practise a fair amount of prosecutorial discretion when it comes to charges [2], depending on how people plead their case before it goes to trial.
[1] https://sso.agc.gov.sg/Act/MDA1973?ProvIds=Sc2-#Sc2-
[2] https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/prosecutorial-...
Singapore's police force and public prosecutor also practise a fair amount of prosecutorial discretion when it comes to charges [2], depending on how people plead their case before it goes to trial.
[1] https://sso.agc.gov.sg/Act/MDA1973?ProvIds=Sc2-#Sc2-
[2] https://singaporelegaladvice.com/law-articles/prosecutorial-...
US gives you 60 days to leave which is also an upheaval. People on visas are here for 15+ years and can have their entire lives uprooted in 60 days.
Singapore operates by the rule of law (except rare edge cases like politics, which are unlikely to concern visitors). You are not going to land in jail unless you commit a crime, some of which you may disagree with, but which are nevertheless made extremely clear to all (heavy fines and potential expulsion for not wearing masks, death penalty for dealing drugs, etc).
Singaporean here. If we're comparing aspects from the article, Singapore has a common law legal system like the US and UK, and debt isn't considered a crime.
It's common knowledge that the Singapore government has ownership stakes in most successful companies operating here via our sovereign wealth fund Temasek Holdings, but I've never heard of private organisations being considered governmental bodies (like DIB in the article).
Our prisons aren't pleasant either [1], but I'm quite certain inmates get healthcare when necessary.
All in, I don't think anyone here would experience a lack of due process, or the same helplessness obtaining legal representation, like what I felt reading the article.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJqRPycWUDg
It's common knowledge that the Singapore government has ownership stakes in most successful companies operating here via our sovereign wealth fund Temasek Holdings, but I've never heard of private organisations being considered governmental bodies (like DIB in the article).
Our prisons aren't pleasant either [1], but I'm quite certain inmates get healthcare when necessary.
All in, I don't think anyone here would experience a lack of due process, or the same helplessness obtaining legal representation, like what I felt reading the article.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJqRPycWUDg
I cannot vouch for anything good or bad about Singapore as I have never lived there nor know anybody who has.
But, for sure, there's plenty of places in the world who operate in a similar way.
But, for sure, there's plenty of places in the world who operate in a similar way.
[deleted]
[deleted]
The UEA tramples on a lot of middle class people, but most don’t get any press coverage.
Yes, and not only foreigners. There are plenty of poor Emiratis in fact.
This comes as a surprise to a lot of people who never been to UAE.
The percentage of uber-rich natives is grossly overestated by the popular image of the country. Nor there are that many really rich expats, unless with businesses outside of UAE, and who only come there to spend.
UAE is not a good place to make money in, but it's often a first choice for MNCs to setup in the region, as anywhere else in the region is even worse.
Only 10%-15% of the UAE population is somewhat close to American middle income standards.
This comes as a surprise to a lot of people who never been to UAE.
The percentage of uber-rich natives is grossly overestated by the popular image of the country. Nor there are that many really rich expats, unless with businesses outside of UAE, and who only come there to spend.
UAE is not a good place to make money in, but it's often a first choice for MNCs to setup in the region, as anywhere else in the region is even worse.
Only 10%-15% of the UAE population is somewhat close to American middle income standards.
I sort of grew up in Saudi, but we were as middle class as they come. I'm not sure if you're South Asian, but if you are I'm pretty sure you experienced it at some point as well. You don't need to look further than how those South Asian laborers are treat to see abuse in human right. Or those Filipino nurses and maids. As a South Asian, you would definitely get the sense that locals would think less of you just because you're brown. Race hierarchy is basically White > Arabs >> Brown. That literally both abuse of human right and structural racism right there.
Local Arabs are definitely above White (and everybody else) in the race hierarchy. Expat Arabs, especially those not from the Gulf, may be lower.
This is clearly visible at eg Riyadh immigration, where there are three unposted but universally observed lines: Gulf Arabs in white thobes, professionals of all sorts, and manual laborers.
This is clearly visible at eg Riyadh immigration, where there are three unposted but universally observed lines: Gulf Arabs in white thobes, professionals of all sorts, and manual laborers.
[deleted]
Right, like no middle class person has ever been detained on landing for drinking... [0].
> less of a threat than one might think from the outside.
Until they're not. It's not like the "silly" laws in your country/state where you can duel on sundays and kill a man, these are applied grossly and unfairly to many people.
[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/10/woman-held-in-...
> less of a threat than one might think from the outside.
Until they're not. It's not like the "silly" laws in your country/state where you can duel on sundays and kill a man, these are applied grossly and unfairly to many people.
[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/10/woman-held-in-...
[deleted]
> Obviously those negatives are all present but less of a threat than one might think from the outside.
I doubt anybody who lived in the gulf for at least a year never been a witnness to extremely harsh treatment of debtors firsthand.
I myself knew a person who went to a debtor prison over a parking ticket.
I doubt anybody who lived in the gulf for at least a year never been a witnness to extremely harsh treatment of debtors firsthand.
I myself knew a person who went to a debtor prison over a parking ticket.
Even visiting the place as a tourist left a bad taste - everything is made up, the service industry is mostly unfriendly (our sightseeing bus left us stranded somewhere and then later on the desert trip, the car broke down middle of nowhere and the driver had no other help so we had to help him fix it), no public transport to speak of, fanciest cars on one side and hapless labourers trudging in the heat alongside. Apart from the choice/variety of food, I cannot think of any redeeming feature about Dubai.
> everything is made up
I've never been to this country but I've been to Vegas once and I somehow expect the whole experience to be very similar and to attract the same kind of people
I've never been to this country but I've been to Vegas once and I somehow expect the whole experience to be very similar and to attract the same kind of people
> the service industry is mostly unfriendly
Sorry to hear about your experience. Mine was wildly different, and I came away with entirely opposite impressions of their service industry.
> no public transport to speak of
How did you manage to miss all the huge flashy light rail stations? It was really convenient to use for travel throughout the city. Especially as a tourist -- just about all tourist destinations are close to a station.
Sorry to hear about your experience. Mine was wildly different, and I came away with entirely opposite impressions of their service industry.
> no public transport to speak of
How did you manage to miss all the huge flashy light rail stations? It was really convenient to use for travel throughout the city. Especially as a tourist -- just about all tourist destinations are close to a station.
I've been to Dubai, and other parts of the UAE, a few times. It can be enjoyable for short durations, but I am not sure I'd want to live there long term.
I am not saying the things you mentioned do not happen, but they're not as overly apparent as they are in some other parts of the Middle East, or China.
The heat though, yeah, that's a thing. When you have air conditioned bus stops, it's a different level.
I am not saying the things you mentioned do not happen, but they're not as overly apparent as they are in some other parts of the Middle East, or China.
The heat though, yeah, that's a thing. When you have air conditioned bus stops, it's a different level.
Of course it’s enjoyable for brief tourist/business visits, you’ve got literal slaves attending to you.
What's enjoyable about having literal slaves attending to you? I can't imagine literal slaves give off a pleasant vibe.
A redditor living there once responded to "why would you be okay living in a country with slave labor?" by asking the commenter: who made the stuff they owned. Who mined the minerals for your electronics (probably exploited miners), who made your clothes (probably underpaid Bangladeshis). So the difference between the average Westerner and a Dubaian is the distance the slaves are to the consumer.
This is a very Reddit take, I think. The distinction is significantly more nuanced. Distance and percentage of slave labor used changes culpability, for example. I would argue that a person having a slave wait on them directly for all needs creates significantly more culpability than the fact that the lithium in my iPhone battery may or may not have come from some class of exploited labor worlds away from me. Further, while the slave owner could divest themselves of slaves directly, I don’t think there is any way for a modern westerner to rid themselves of anything in the supply chain of their lives of same. It doesn’t make it right, but these things are not equivalent.
It's called whataboutism and is a logical fallacy. If you feel good directly interacting with literal slaves I'm sure you would resort to this kind of mental gymnastic though
I would feel bad seeing the construction workers in the Middle Eastern countries (I have only been outside the airport in one of those countries once, for a few hours), but I'll be honest, I know my electronics and clothes are probably made by someone underpaid and overworked, but I don't feel very guilty about it. And I would hazard a guess that you have similar electronics and clothes, and you're not worried about it.
And whataboutism is also whataboutism, if I understand Wikipedia correctly. If I can call you out, you think being waited on by slaves is bad but give it a few thousand miles, then there's no mental gymnastics going on? Yeah we in the West^W capitalist world can pull the mental gymnastics and say "Well, it's the evil capitalist system, what can we do", oh hey, welcome to the class!
> Some commentators have defended the usage of whataboutism and tu quoque in certain contexts. Whataboutism can provide necessary context into whether or not a particular line of critique is relevant or fair. In international relations, behavior that may be imperfect by international standards may be quite good for a given geopolitical neighborhood, and deserves to be recognized as such.[12]
> Christian Christensen, Professor of Journalism in Stockholm, argues that the accusation of whataboutism is itself a form of the tu quoque fallacy, as it dismisses criticisms of one's own behavior to focus instead on the actions of another, thus creating a double standard. Those who use whataboutism are not necessarily engaging in an empty or cynical deflection of responsibility: whataboutism can be a useful tool to expose contradictions, double standards, and hypocrisy.[82][83]
And whataboutism is also whataboutism, if I understand Wikipedia correctly. If I can call you out, you think being waited on by slaves is bad but give it a few thousand miles, then there's no mental gymnastics going on? Yeah we in the West^W capitalist world can pull the mental gymnastics and say "Well, it's the evil capitalist system, what can we do", oh hey, welcome to the class!
> Some commentators have defended the usage of whataboutism and tu quoque in certain contexts. Whataboutism can provide necessary context into whether or not a particular line of critique is relevant or fair. In international relations, behavior that may be imperfect by international standards may be quite good for a given geopolitical neighborhood, and deserves to be recognized as such.[12]
> Christian Christensen, Professor of Journalism in Stockholm, argues that the accusation of whataboutism is itself a form of the tu quoque fallacy, as it dismisses criticisms of one's own behavior to focus instead on the actions of another, thus creating a double standard. Those who use whataboutism are not necessarily engaging in an empty or cynical deflection of responsibility: whataboutism can be a useful tool to expose contradictions, double standards, and hypocrisy.[82][83]
> welcome to the class!
Members of all classes in the west benefit (in some ways) from from this arrangement, but only members of the capitalist classes are capable of changing it without revolutionary action. So, I know what I can do, but the first step involves rekindling class consciousness in the west which is rather a large order.
In the meantime while I do that, I can also not hit up a party in Dubai, and I think that's good too.
Or will you make the argument that confiscating laborers' passports is "quite good" for that geopolitical neighborhood?
Members of all classes in the west benefit (in some ways) from from this arrangement, but only members of the capitalist classes are capable of changing it without revolutionary action. So, I know what I can do, but the first step involves rekindling class consciousness in the west which is rather a large order.
In the meantime while I do that, I can also not hit up a party in Dubai, and I think that's good too.
Or will you make the argument that confiscating laborers' passports is "quite good" for that geopolitical neighborhood?
I am also not exactly a fan of capitalism, and agree the line between slavery and wage slavery is thinner than most westerners think. But it's a lot easier (in every sense) for me not go party in Dubai than it is to live without pants or even a computer; just like a remedy of "just give them their passports back" is a lot easier to put into action than a way for Bangladeshi tailors to more fully capture their labor value on the global market.
Living there, as in being born there and having family and friendly connections, also presents a different set of moral and personal challenges vs. deciding to open a branch of my business there or taking a vacation there. In an abstract moral sense I'd like to divest myself of the US for a decade now, but that would be both materially dangerous until an alternative citizenship is effectively secured, and unfair to my family members who still live there.
Living there, as in being born there and having family and friendly connections, also presents a different set of moral and personal challenges vs. deciding to open a branch of my business there or taking a vacation there. In an abstract moral sense I'd like to divest myself of the US for a decade now, but that would be both materially dangerous until an alternative citizenship is effectively secured, and unfair to my family members who still live there.
> I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth
This is an extremely privileged way to think, and I am guessing, you are from a western country. You have had good access to food, and education while growing up. Just a guess... Families, who are on the borderline, or are deep in poverty, in countries such as Pakistan, India, or Bangladesh, go over there for opportunity. They will drive taxis, or work in construction, to send money back, and the remittance is massive. In the billions. It has helped people I know personally get out of poverty, and the children are now being educated in UK universities. These are people who grew up in South Asian villages without much hope.
I grew up in a country next to UAE, and it gave me excellent education in one of the best private schools around, exposure to many cultures, and I am now living in the US based on my life there.
But then again, I do hear from Africans in Southern Africa, why any minority would step foot into the US based on what they see in the news, and yet we have many risking their lives to cross a hostile desert region.
This is an extremely privileged way to think, and I am guessing, you are from a western country. You have had good access to food, and education while growing up. Just a guess... Families, who are on the borderline, or are deep in poverty, in countries such as Pakistan, India, or Bangladesh, go over there for opportunity. They will drive taxis, or work in construction, to send money back, and the remittance is massive. In the billions. It has helped people I know personally get out of poverty, and the children are now being educated in UK universities. These are people who grew up in South Asian villages without much hope.
I grew up in a country next to UAE, and it gave me excellent education in one of the best private schools around, exposure to many cultures, and I am now living in the US based on my life there.
But then again, I do hear from Africans in Southern Africa, why any minority would step foot into the US based on what they see in the news, and yet we have many risking their lives to cross a hostile desert region.
> plus it's absurdly hot
Most of the places people visit and live aren't absurdly hot. The largest cities in the middle east BY FAR are Ciaro, Tehran, Istanbul, and Baghdad.
Cairo is hot most of the year - but one of these places are hotter than Phoenix - which is currently one of the places people are moving to in droves in the US
Tehran & Istanbul, for example, aren't even much hotter than Los Angeles: https://weatherspark.com/y/105125/Average-Weather-in-Tehran-...
If you think Los Angeles has bad weather - you're just out of touch with almost everyone else in the world.
Riyadh and Dubai are VERY HOT. KSA is its own strange destination from a Western perspective. It's mostly religious. But Dubai is similar to Las Vegas and Miami in many ways - in the crowd it attracts and what people do there. It's still much hotter - I agree, don't know how people do it there.
Most of the places people visit and live aren't absurdly hot. The largest cities in the middle east BY FAR are Ciaro, Tehran, Istanbul, and Baghdad.
Cairo is hot most of the year - but one of these places are hotter than Phoenix - which is currently one of the places people are moving to in droves in the US
Tehran & Istanbul, for example, aren't even much hotter than Los Angeles: https://weatherspark.com/y/105125/Average-Weather-in-Tehran-...
If you think Los Angeles has bad weather - you're just out of touch with almost everyone else in the world.
Riyadh and Dubai are VERY HOT. KSA is its own strange destination from a Western perspective. It's mostly religious. But Dubai is similar to Las Vegas and Miami in many ways - in the crowd it attracts and what people do there. It's still much hotter - I agree, don't know how people do it there.
Someone I know would never move to Riyadh because its too cold - it goes down to zero some winters!
Saudi Arabia is considerably worse on every aspect, it just gets even less press.
To be fair, SA isn’t touted as a dream destination for tourists, but quite the opposite: Tourists can’t enter.
Dubai sells this luxury destination dream literally built by slaves.
Dubai sells this luxury destination dream literally built by slaves.
They can now.
https://www.saudiembassy.net/tourist-visa
https://www.saudiembassy.net/tourist-visa
this is sort of like saying the second tier of hell on earth is really quite nice in comparison to the ninth tier.
Well, yes. If I were a woman, I would absolutely opt for Dubai over Saudi, even though both would suck compared to most other options.
Totally correct. It's a North Korea with oil, and welfare programs, and, now, rave parties*
* https://youtu.be/8PBz9yaPksM
* https://youtu.be/8PBz9yaPksM
"rave" parties. Is it really a rave if people aren't rolling their balls off? :P
So the why is pretty simple, effective wages after taxes(which are pretty much zero), are 3-7 times higher there.
It does not matter if you are a Pakistani prostitute, or a silicon valley programmer, an Indian construction worker, or a British engineer, they will pay you a salary three to seven times higher after taxes than what you make at home.
Further, if you dont have the merits for some well paid job, but they need someone to do it right now, they will pretend you do. So junior programmer with a half finished degree and half a year of experience as a web dev, but they need a senior engineer. Please welcome our senior engineer, and yeah the salary is 3-5x a senior engineer position. The downside is that when they call, you say yes today, dont ask about anything other than salary and start on monday, no matter where you happen to live at the moment or if you are still employed etc.
Oh and if you work there and are white, you write Christian on everything. That way, if you get thrown in prison, you can convert and ask to be released. Its not easy, but it is one of the few ways to get out if it really goes to shit. If you work there and are arab or look arab, you are muslim, and the right kind. If you are black... dont, just dont...
It does not matter if you are a Pakistani prostitute, or a silicon valley programmer, an Indian construction worker, or a British engineer, they will pay you a salary three to seven times higher after taxes than what you make at home.
Further, if you dont have the merits for some well paid job, but they need someone to do it right now, they will pretend you do. So junior programmer with a half finished degree and half a year of experience as a web dev, but they need a senior engineer. Please welcome our senior engineer, and yeah the salary is 3-5x a senior engineer position. The downside is that when they call, you say yes today, dont ask about anything other than salary and start on monday, no matter where you happen to live at the moment or if you are still employed etc.
Oh and if you work there and are white, you write Christian on everything. That way, if you get thrown in prison, you can convert and ask to be released. Its not easy, but it is one of the few ways to get out if it really goes to shit. If you work there and are arab or look arab, you are muslim, and the right kind. If you are black... dont, just dont...
If you're a middle class European working in oil and you're a bit naive and insulated from that sort of news and current events then it's easy to miss. Dubai marketed itself well enough that many people just see one side of things, so they might believe it's a wealthy, paradise of capitalism where there are some poor foreign labourers but they don't fully appreciate the scale of the abuse.
A few of my school friends moved out there (and Abu Dhabi), they see it as a sort of dream land where they can live a luxurious life they believe they thoroughly deserve and earned. They're a mixture of disbelieving there's some gross stuff going on and dismissive of its severity. An argument I've seen by one was that there are no countries that can escape criticism, which is true in a way but it just feels a bit more cruel and deliberate in the Gulf.
So that explains a little bit of the indifference to the defacto slavery, however these sort of stories where the person suffering is white may give them pause for thought...
A few of my school friends moved out there (and Abu Dhabi), they see it as a sort of dream land where they can live a luxurious life they believe they thoroughly deserve and earned. They're a mixture of disbelieving there's some gross stuff going on and dismissive of its severity. An argument I've seen by one was that there are no countries that can escape criticism, which is true in a way but it just feels a bit more cruel and deliberate in the Gulf.
So that explains a little bit of the indifference to the defacto slavery, however these sort of stories where the person suffering is white may give them pause for thought...
It's good place to be a comfortable service expat, Dubai in particular, relatively small city with world class accoutrements. Break neck change in development and culture. Life's fine for these folks if they behave and accept relatively privileged position on pecking order.
> culturally hyper conservative,
Dubai is literally one of the biggest prostitution hub on the planet for western prostitutes. Google "yatching".
"server human rights abuse" is an understatement, it's straight out slavery practiced there, legal slavery.
Dubai is literally one of the biggest prostitution hub on the planet for western prostitutes. Google "yatching".
"server human rights abuse" is an understatement, it's straight out slavery practiced there, legal slavery.
> environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot.
You forgot one: world's premier shopping mall destination.
You forgot one: world's premier shopping mall destination.
Sounds like Texas to be honest. wink wink.
I think it might have to do with the difficulty of getting a tourist or work visa for the US or Europe when from a country with a weak passport.
[deleted]
Those horror stories are mostly propaganda amplified in echo chambers of people who have never been to Dubai.
Take this "slavery" nonsense for example. There is literally no difference between migration regime of a low-skilled worker and a highly-paid "expat". Rules are the same and they are way softer than, for example, H1B.
Millions used to be spent on smearing Dubai, so we will be hearing echoes of those "horror stories" for many years.
Other horror stories, which are not propaganda, are coming from cultural deafness. A Brit gets drunk, engages in sex on a public beach and then cries about "savage laws" when gets arrested. When in Rome, do like Romans, but some people think their view is better than anyone else's. I've seen Brits who think British laws should apply to them wherever they go.
Take this "slavery" nonsense for example. There is literally no difference between migration regime of a low-skilled worker and a highly-paid "expat". Rules are the same and they are way softer than, for example, H1B.
Millions used to be spent on smearing Dubai, so we will be hearing echoes of those "horror stories" for many years.
Other horror stories, which are not propaganda, are coming from cultural deafness. A Brit gets drunk, engages in sex on a public beach and then cries about "savage laws" when gets arrested. When in Rome, do like Romans, but some people think their view is better than anyone else's. I've seen Brits who think British laws should apply to them wherever they go.
> There is literally no difference between migration regime of a low-skilled worker and a highly-paid "expat".
You can’t be serious.
Nobody is withholding an expat’s passport while they live in boxes with 16 other people and working for months on end.
You’re making ridiculous comparisons and it makes me dubious of your intent here.
You can’t be serious.
Nobody is withholding an expat’s passport while they live in boxes with 16 other people and working for months on end.
You’re making ridiculous comparisons and it makes me dubious of your intent here.
He's merely saying the rules are the same. The higher skilled worker can afford not to live with 16 other people. I don't know about the passport, but in countries like Saudi Arabia: Yes - they do/did take your passport away, regardless of whether you're a lowly worker or an executive at a company. There's a process you have to go through to get the passport back so you can travel.
Even if they let you keep your passport, you still need an exit visa to leave. I've known wealthy upper class people to get stuck in the country for a bit because they had a dispute with their employer and the latter then refused to sign the paperwork so he could get an exit visa.
Even if they let you keep your passport, you still need an exit visa to leave. I've known wealthy upper class people to get stuck in the country for a bit because they had a dispute with their employer and the latter then refused to sign the paperwork so he could get an exit visa.
Nobody is withholding any passports. It is illegal and employer will be fined if gov finds out. Dubai gov advertises hotlines where employees can anonymously report such things. Moreover, employer is mandated to pay for the return ticket if employee resigns and decides to leave. Employer simply can't get a visa unless they deposit the cash with gov.
Putting 16 people in the same "box" is also illegal and, frankly, I've never seen laborers being treated like that. I think you are making this up or referring to an outlier case.
Laborers have two options: take care of their own housing or live in a employer-provided accommodation. Bankers, obviously, choose the former, taxi drivers choose the latter. There is no law that says taxi drivers should be treated differently than bankers.
It helps if one imagines Dubai as a cruise ship: expats are treated as a typical cruise ship crew. Some sleep in bunks next to the engines, some pay to live in better rooms on higher decks, but the approach in general is the same. Each member of the crew is there temporarily and they know it. They are expected to do their job and leave once its over.
Putting 16 people in the same "box" is also illegal and, frankly, I've never seen laborers being treated like that. I think you are making this up or referring to an outlier case.
Laborers have two options: take care of their own housing or live in a employer-provided accommodation. Bankers, obviously, choose the former, taxi drivers choose the latter. There is no law that says taxi drivers should be treated differently than bankers.
It helps if one imagines Dubai as a cruise ship: expats are treated as a typical cruise ship crew. Some sleep in bunks next to the engines, some pay to live in better rooms on higher decks, but the approach in general is the same. Each member of the crew is there temporarily and they know it. They are expected to do their job and leave once its over.
Ah yes, cultural relativism! Justifying barbaric behaviour since, well, the Barbarians.
Well, that is what I mean: some people divide the world to "civilized" and "barbaric" and anything that does not fit their world view must be barbaric of course.
I see no reason to declare any part of the world civilized. Some countries are further down the road to being civilized, but we should always be asking what needs improving.
That you're unable to perceive the difference doesn't mean it's non-existent.
People who travel the world will tell you that there are differences in civilisation advancement and human rights between countries and regions. To claim otherwise is just denying facts.
No doubt. I've been to 114 countries out of ~200 and spent decades living in different parts of the world. My comment was about people crying "slavery" while not fully understanding what they are referring to, about people who call others "barbarians" because their laws are different from they got used to.
I don't think this justifies his treatment, but the article starts off by essentially saying this man did nothing wrong and was forced into signing a confession without a lawyer present in a language he can't understand. It's not until you get more than a third of the way into the article that they point out he was convicted in a civil case brought by the same complainant in British courts of committing financial fraud against the Dubai bank.
His treatment is unacceptable, the sentence is outrageous (and counterproductive), but fundamentally this is why you don't get into business with and especially don't defraud petty dictators in unstable regions of the world. If this had been in his place of birth, he would have been murdered rather than imprisoned, and I imagine he should be well aware of this given his upbringing and career history.
His treatment is unacceptable, the sentence is outrageous (and counterproductive), but fundamentally this is why you don't get into business with and especially don't defraud petty dictators in unstable regions of the world. If this had been in his place of birth, he would have been murdered rather than imprisoned, and I imagine he should be well aware of this given his upbringing and career history.
It's kind of ironic that it required a wealthy british entrepeneur to be the victim of systems like this before this article could be written.
"he was convicted in british courts" is exactly the wrong kind of reasoning here. Sure, this guy probably did it, but for every person who probably did it there are likely 9 or even 99 innocent people who spend months rotting in jail and being abused - or in the US, dying in jail - awaiting a fair trial because we tolerate violations of law and mistreatment of prisoners.
"he would have been murdered rather than imprisoned" is also not especially comforting considering just how badly one can be scarred by imprisonment, interrogation, etc.
"he would have been murdered rather than imprisoned" is also not especially comforting considering just how badly one can be scarred by imprisonment, interrogation, etc.
To be clear, I don't think this is okay. My comment is more pointing out that the article goes out of its way to act as if he's innocent only to later reveal he was actually convicted of the crime by a more trustworthy entity. It's a criticism of the article, not a justification of the treatment of this individual.
It's clear that debtor's prison, en total, is unethical. It's also illegal in most of the Western world. And for cases where someone is imprisoned for any crime, the sentence should match the crime, and the treatment within prison should be humane.
My latter commentary is about the risk factors that this person knowingly took on doing business in that region. I personally, having traveled extensively, would never engage in business in the Middle East because I understand the nebulous way debt is treated in the region. Usury is illegal under Islamic law, and generally speaking debt is only acceptable in the context of direct personal relationships, which means any dispute about it is taken as a personal insult. Taking on a debt from the finance minister and member of the royal family of a theocratic dictatorship is not a good life decision.
It's clear that debtor's prison, en total, is unethical. It's also illegal in most of the Western world. And for cases where someone is imprisoned for any crime, the sentence should match the crime, and the treatment within prison should be humane.
My latter commentary is about the risk factors that this person knowingly took on doing business in that region. I personally, having traveled extensively, would never engage in business in the Middle East because I understand the nebulous way debt is treated in the region. Usury is illegal under Islamic law, and generally speaking debt is only acceptable in the context of direct personal relationships, which means any dispute about it is taken as a personal insult. Taking on a debt from the finance minister and member of the royal family of a theocratic dictatorship is not a good life decision.
Shaibani’s past calls into question Dubai’s claim to be run by the rule of law. He was involved in two of the most notorious episodes in Dubai’s recent history: the kidnappings of the emir’s daughters, Shamsa and Latifa. In August 2000, Shamsa was abducted from the streets of Cambridge, England, not far from the sheikh’s estate in Newmarket. She was drugged and taken to Dubai against her will. During a dispute between the ruler of Dubai and his estranged wife, the English High Court determined in December 2019 that Shaibani was “closely involved” in the “operation to remove” her and, indeed, that he was present when she was seized. She hasn’t been seen in public since.
The UK must be addicted to despot money because these things keep on happening and the diplomatic reactions seem non existent.
The UK must be addicted to despot money because these things keep on happening and the diplomatic reactions seem non existent.
As a Bay Area native who moved to Abu Dhabi / Dubai roughly four years ago, I have a lot of issues with the way the UAE is portrayed across sites like Hacker News and Reddit. A lot of them are in the comments for this story, focusing on all the negatives of the country, structural racism, human rights abuse, etc and we certainly have a right to raise these things (of which I actively fight against here every day). That being said however, this young country does also have many positives to it that go unnoticed by those across the world since they're rarely reported. They may be small, but they are accomplishments nonetheless, such as a couple years ago being the "Year of Tolerance" where the gov't focused on bring inclusivity in their own way to the country, or bringing the Pope to this country on his first ever visit to the Gulf, or even the religious centers that are being built in Abu Dhabi that celebrate Jewish, Muslim and Christian history. For a country hardly 50 years old, it's come a long way. Just this year, a lot of laws such as having children out of wedlock, marijuana / alcohol, not requiring a local partner for business, etc., have all been relaxed and this is just the beginning. They've also introduced a variety of labor laws (though I don't think they're being followed by the owners of these companies, but that's a qualm for another day)
I don't want to get across that this country is good or bad, but that it's _complex_ (just like most countries). I do personally believe that the leadership of the country is trying to make a positive impact, though it's usually in ways that aren't reported in the media and... that's all I want put out there, just to bring some nuance to the conversation.
Having said all that, going back to the long-form article, I will say only one thing, debt is something that's really scary to have here since AFAIK, it's illegal in Islam, so the credit card system tends to be strangely designed and if I was ever in debt to this country or any of these Arab countries, I'd stay far away from here.
I don't want to get across that this country is good or bad, but that it's _complex_ (just like most countries). I do personally believe that the leadership of the country is trying to make a positive impact, though it's usually in ways that aren't reported in the media and... that's all I want put out there, just to bring some nuance to the conversation.
Having said all that, going back to the long-form article, I will say only one thing, debt is something that's really scary to have here since AFAIK, it's illegal in Islam, so the credit card system tends to be strangely designed and if I was ever in debt to this country or any of these Arab countries, I'd stay far away from here.
Funny how what would be extremely backward and illegal beliefs in the west just become "complicated" once huge amounts of money are involved.
I don't think beliefs are illegal anywhere in the west
I take the salt the Earth approach with countries that would imprison me, as a gay man for being gay. Or countries where simply being born a woman affords you fewer rights. I have zero respect for the UAE.
Your argument is a logical fallacy. Yes I'm sure the UAE is improving, but that doesn't mean we should stop vilifying it for the terribly evil laws it has and things it does. It's not "complex", there's just no motivation to make actual, sweeping change, only token change to appeal to the West, whom the UAE relies on to do business with. Dubai should not exist, it's an artificial Oasis in the desert in a world where global warming is becoming a serious threat. Dubai was built on slave labour.
Your argument is a logical fallacy. Yes I'm sure the UAE is improving, but that doesn't mean we should stop vilifying it for the terribly evil laws it has and things it does. It's not "complex", there's just no motivation to make actual, sweeping change, only token change to appeal to the West, whom the UAE relies on to do business with. Dubai should not exist, it's an artificial Oasis in the desert in a world where global warming is becoming a serious threat. Dubai was built on slave labour.
I upvoted you because it’s easy to shit on countries.
Sure, Dubai may not reach the level Western democracies have, but they also didn’t start at the same point as well. That doesn’t excuse the shortcomings, but maybe explains them.
Western democracies in Europe and North America didn’t spring up overnight. You’re looking at 800+ years of developing a broadly accepted set of human rights.
Sure, Dubai may not reach the level Western democracies have, but they also didn’t start at the same point as well. That doesn’t excuse the shortcomings, but maybe explains them.
Western democracies in Europe and North America didn’t spring up overnight. You’re looking at 800+ years of developing a broadly accepted set of human rights.
The mental gymnastics people will do to excuse that place are insane.
Honestly can't imagine anyone would be this forgiving of it's bigotry if it wasn't so rich.
Honestly can't imagine anyone would be this forgiving of it's bigotry if it wasn't so rich.
Debt is not illegal in Islam.
You’re right, just reading more on the topic now, it’s a punishable offense, not illegal. My mistake thanks for pointing this out
In which country is it a punishable offense?
> not requiring a local partner for business
Are you sure this is a good thing? It opens the country to foreign economic exploitation. There's a reason China required it for so long.
Are you sure this is a good thing? It opens the country to foreign economic exploitation. There's a reason China required it for so long.
Debt is NOT illegal in Islam.
Debt is debt, that’s it, you’re supposed to pay it back.
Not a reason to criminalize a debt the way the UAE does it.
Islam has nothing to do with this.
Other things you mentioned are NOT complex:
Slavery, exploitation, lack of rule of law, lack of human rights, lack of women rights etc
Let’s not give the UAE a pass here.
People go to the UAE to make money. They re not there from some “intellectually difficult to explain” reason. Pure $$$.
Debt is debt, that’s it, you’re supposed to pay it back.
Not a reason to criminalize a debt the way the UAE does it.
Islam has nothing to do with this.
Other things you mentioned are NOT complex:
Slavery, exploitation, lack of rule of law, lack of human rights, lack of women rights etc
Let’s not give the UAE a pass here.
People go to the UAE to make money. They re not there from some “intellectually difficult to explain” reason. Pure $$$.
You remind me of myself when I used to work for Amazon.
I'd also spend a lot of time explaining to friends how "It's complicated" and "You know, they also do a lot of good things". But the reality I wouldn't admit to myself was much simpler: they were doing awful things, but I was willing to work for them as long as they paid me enough and made my life comfortable enough.
It's very uncomfortable to admit to yourself that your ethics and morals have a price. I hope yours was high enough.
I'd also spend a lot of time explaining to friends how "It's complicated" and "You know, they also do a lot of good things". But the reality I wouldn't admit to myself was much simpler: they were doing awful things, but I was willing to work for them as long as they paid me enough and made my life comfortable enough.
It's very uncomfortable to admit to yourself that your ethics and morals have a price. I hope yours was high enough.
I appreciate the thought, but I’d raise the same thing I mentioned in the other comment, that I’m here for humanitarian reasons rather than simply trying to “strike it rich” or something. My ethics and morals are incredibly important to me and you suggesting that just by merely being present in this country without knowing why is in someway selling myself out is presumptuous.
I’ll add something else, as someone who has faced racism growing up in the Bay Area very very often, I’m sensitive to it and it’s something I push back on every time I’m faced with it here.
I’ll add something else, as someone who has faced racism growing up in the Bay Area very very often, I’m sensitive to it and it’s something I push back on every time I’m faced with it here.
You know, I do owe you an apology. That was snarky as hell and I don't know your situation. Sorry.
Not a problem, appreciate it
not OP but I respect the apology
I’m curious about your stated reason for being there. Dubai gives Humanitarian visas to foreigners? To work in its own country (which then means it’s admitting it needs help)? I guess the host company is Dubaian? With all sincerity, I’m curious.
[deleted]
Anyone who says "We certainly have a right to raise [...] (issues with) racism, human rights abuse, etc." and immediately follows with "That being said however", is automatically not entitled to an opinion. You're clearly biased and enfatuated with the richness of the country and easy access to slavery and are more than content of looking the other way.
I don’t think that’s fair. You don’t know why I’m here and calling me an entitled prick is laughable because of your base assumptions. Maybe I’m here for humanitarian reasons and am trying to improve the lives of many.
I’m not infatuated by anything, I’m simply raising a nuanced opinion about a country that has many faults, but has some successes which are never acknowledged. And that’s fine.
Just thought it might be interesting to hear a viewpoint from someone who actually lives here rather than blindly reads the news and maybe has visited a few times. Labeling me and calling me names doesn’t help or bring anything useful to the conversation. If you can’t name a single positive thing the UAE has done, then to me, maybe it’s worth it to do some further investigation on the topic.
I’m not infatuated by anything, I’m simply raising a nuanced opinion about a country that has many faults, but has some successes which are never acknowledged. And that’s fine.
Just thought it might be interesting to hear a viewpoint from someone who actually lives here rather than blindly reads the news and maybe has visited a few times. Labeling me and calling me names doesn’t help or bring anything useful to the conversation. If you can’t name a single positive thing the UAE has done, then to me, maybe it’s worth it to do some further investigation on the topic.
That's a lot of maybes. You said in your initial comment that you fight racism and slavery there every day, so... are you there on humanitarian reasons? Part of an NGO?
No, it's entirely fair. You just refuse to appreciate the dissonance between the country that lets you live a comfy life and actual evil that happens there on daily basis.
There was so much media coverage about human rights violations and slavery you'd have to put in a lot of effort to not see it.
There was so much media coverage about human rights violations and slavery you'd have to put in a lot of effort to not see it.
I appreciate the dissonance just fine. I live here and face it every day when actually interacting with people. We go out of our way to support them as much as we can (buying furniture and things for those who cannot afford it, proving financial and emotional support, and just hanging out with them).
As I’ve mentioned now several times, I’m not blind to it. The UAE has engaged in many poorly made decisions, however I was simply trying to engage in some conversation about something the western media doesn’t often talk about - the positive things the UAE does. If your response to that is, “the UAE is entirely negative, why engage in anything positive”, then I’d suggest seeking information on the positive things the country has done for others. Maybe it’ll broaden your horizon and bring some nuance. I’d state more positives here, but I keep getting called names, so I won’t list any more positives.
As I’ve mentioned now several times, I’m not blind to it. The UAE has engaged in many poorly made decisions, however I was simply trying to engage in some conversation about something the western media doesn’t often talk about - the positive things the UAE does. If your response to that is, “the UAE is entirely negative, why engage in anything positive”, then I’d suggest seeking information on the positive things the country has done for others. Maybe it’ll broaden your horizon and bring some nuance. I’d state more positives here, but I keep getting called names, so I won’t list any more positives.
Opinions will exist with or without your permission. There's no entitlement about it, and you would have no standing to decide it if there was. "Automatically not entitled to an opinion" is a dog whistle for fascism.
Well said. They shield themselves well, and they package it up nicely for business interests and tourists to tolerate it or never experience problematic situations.
By this logic, your own opinions are invalid, since as an American you clearly personally condone every social evil in that country.
Does the same apply to America? Plenty of racism, people shot in their homes by police, Guantanamo Bay still open.
I really think an educational program is needed to take people from the US to visit some non-western countries with "human rights issues" and see what this actually looks like for a bit to cure this kind of whataboutism deflections that crop up anytime criticisms are made of conditions for people in foreign countries.
>take people from the US to visit some non-western countries with "human rights issues" and see what this actually looks like for a bit
I'm sure once they come to Dubai they'll be horrified how the streets aren't covered in human shit and used needles.
I'm sure once they come to Dubai they'll be horrified how the streets aren't covered in human shit and used needles.
I almost feel like you're proving my point. Try going outside the tourist districts. Nobody is complaining that the streets of downtown Dubai are dirty, they're complaining that they're being cleaned by slave labor.
brthsim(1)
You wax poetically about UAE (mostly emotion, little fact), then remind the reader that it is an Islamic dictatorship.
Why would any intelligent person ever set foot there? I'd lose over half of my current rights as it stands.
Why would any intelligent person ever set foot there? I'd lose over half of my current rights as it stands.
I’m not waxing poetic about anything. I agree that the UAE has engaged (and continues to engage) in several atrocities. Many many horrible things which as mentioned, I’m also combating during my time here.
Also you mentioned little fact, mostly emotion, but i stated things like the Year of Tolerance, the religious temples being built, etc. but I’d hope others can also investigate on their own. We are so quick to paint countries as evil without understanding the full situation.
I’ve met several intelligent people here from everywhere in the world and many here are trying to have a positive impact on the country.
Also you mentioned little fact, mostly emotion, but i stated things like the Year of Tolerance, the religious temples being built, etc. but I’d hope others can also investigate on their own. We are so quick to paint countries as evil without understanding the full situation.
I’ve met several intelligent people here from everywhere in the world and many here are trying to have a positive impact on the country.
> Also you mentioned little fact, mostly emotion, but i stated things like the Year of Tolerance, the religious temples being built, etc. but I’d hope others can also investigate on their own. We are so quick to paint countries as evil without understanding the full situation.
You are correct. Let me help rectify my transgression by providing a very consolidated list of things I can do in America that you can not do in the UAE:
1. Hold elections.
2. Form political parties.
3. Criticize my government and officials.
4. Have extra-martial or casual sex.
5. Consume alcohol.
6. Consume cannabis.
7. Be homosexual.
8. Kiss my partner in public.
9. Eat, drink, and smoke between sunrise and sunset during Ramadan.
10. Swear - both IRL and online.
Is that enough or do you need more concrete examples? The list is quite long.
You are correct. Let me help rectify my transgression by providing a very consolidated list of things I can do in America that you can not do in the UAE:
1. Hold elections.
2. Form political parties.
3. Criticize my government and officials.
4. Have extra-martial or casual sex.
5. Consume alcohol.
6. Consume cannabis.
7. Be homosexual.
8. Kiss my partner in public.
9. Eat, drink, and smoke between sunrise and sunset during Ramadan.
10. Swear - both IRL and online.
Is that enough or do you need more concrete examples? The list is quite long.
[deleted]
logicchains(4)
It's easy to think you have a lot of rights until you try to do something unpopular with them. I left the west for somewhere where I have a lot fewer rights on paper, but I feel so much freer now, no longer constantly worrying about what the mob thinks of everything I say.
I won't defend the UAE, but the level of freedom you have in actual daily life is surprisingly disconnected from what's written in a constitution or what the government is doing.
I won't defend the UAE, but the level of freedom you have in actual daily life is surprisingly disconnected from what's written in a constitution or what the government is doing.
Doesn't that just mean that there's more space for one to get arbitrary trouble the moment somebody decides that they don't like you or what you do?
In theory yes, but it's often a distraction in practice, like putting a triple-secure lock on your iron-plated door and leaving the window open. Many of these freedoms are important, but threatened much more by corporations or cultures than by governments.
> It's easy to think you have a lot of rights until you try to do something unpopular with them
Nonsense argument. Lacks details and specifics.
> I left the west for somewhere where I have a lot fewer rights on paper, but I feel so much freer now, no longer constantly worrying about what the mob thinks of everything I say.
That's where you fucked up: Caring about what [random] people think about you. Also I would love to know what country you feel more free in. For some reason I suspect this will not be answered.
> I won't defend the UAE, but the level of freedom you have in actual daily life is surprisingly disconnected from what's written in a constitution or what the government is doing.
More blah blah blah nonsense. Examples, give them. I have numerous freedoms I exercise daily (speech, worship, association, ownership of war weapons).
Nonsense argument. Lacks details and specifics.
> I left the west for somewhere where I have a lot fewer rights on paper, but I feel so much freer now, no longer constantly worrying about what the mob thinks of everything I say.
That's where you fucked up: Caring about what [random] people think about you. Also I would love to know what country you feel more free in. For some reason I suspect this will not be answered.
> I won't defend the UAE, but the level of freedom you have in actual daily life is surprisingly disconnected from what's written in a constitution or what the government is doing.
More blah blah blah nonsense. Examples, give them. I have numerous freedoms I exercise daily (speech, worship, association, ownership of war weapons).
> Nonsense argument. Lacks details and specifics.
Does this really not match your experience of how things have been going lately? Freedom of speech and association but that doesn't prevent you from being fired for what you say or who you associate with. Free to protest unless there's a risk your protest might have an effect, then a state of emergency will be declared and the police will explain how they can legally kidnap your dog.
> That's where you fucked up: Caring about what [random] people think about you. Also I would love to know what country you feel more free in.
Japan, FWIW. I could be deported if I took part in political activities, there are significant restrictions on my speech (strict libel laws). But I have a supportive local community and strong employment protection, both things that count for a lot.
Does this really not match your experience of how things have been going lately? Freedom of speech and association but that doesn't prevent you from being fired for what you say or who you associate with. Free to protest unless there's a risk your protest might have an effect, then a state of emergency will be declared and the police will explain how they can legally kidnap your dog.
> That's where you fucked up: Caring about what [random] people think about you. Also I would love to know what country you feel more free in.
Japan, FWIW. I could be deported if I took part in political activities, there are significant restrictions on my speech (strict libel laws). But I have a supportive local community and strong employment protection, both things that count for a lot.
Thanks. Hoes does WBM get the page? Does the economist let it's crawlers through?
Just disable javascript and the entire article loads on the economist.
Crawlers are often permitted to get more web visibility. I think the Web Archive also crawls the web as a browser sometimes, so they can't always distinguish between crawlers.
That said, with NoScript on I can just read the economist article, no banners or anything.
That said, with NoScript on I can just read the economist article, no banners or anything.
I do wonder; at some point, Google said they would penalize websites that show their crawlers something else than real visitors.
India has a similar law. You will be detained from leaving the country even if you are not the principal borrower and you've just stood as a guarantor for someone else's loan the bank can issue a lookout circular without even approaching a court. One of my offshore resources was arrested at the airport[1] even though he was not the pricipal borrower of the loan.
The funny thing about these incidents is that, all these countries want to have startup hubs, all the while forgetting that the very definition of a startup means risk taking where 9 out 10 companies go bankrupt.
One of the reasons I still think the west (UK, EU, US) are still some of the best countries to have a thriving business environment. You can be assured (at least a vast majority of the time) that no crazy laws like these would be enacted that would encroach on fundamental rights of a citizen over a civil issue.
[1] https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio...
The funny thing about these incidents is that, all these countries want to have startup hubs, all the while forgetting that the very definition of a startup means risk taking where 9 out 10 companies go bankrupt.
One of the reasons I still think the west (UK, EU, US) are still some of the best countries to have a thriving business environment. You can be assured (at least a vast majority of the time) that no crazy laws like these would be enacted that would encroach on fundamental rights of a citizen over a civil issue.
[1] https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-natio...
The problem is this guy raised money for a project in Dubai and used it for a project in Pakistan. If you fundraised for a startup building robots in the US and instead used the money to buy real estate in Canada, you would be convicted of fraud as well wherever you are.
[deleted]
I can't say I'm surprised, but I can't help but feel he would have been much better off if he wasn't so rich. I wouldn't be surprised if they kept him locked up for life to ensure there is no possibility for anyone to contest the property seizures.
Corruption at its finest.
Corruption at its finest.
He admits he committed fraud (using DIB funds for the Plantation on a project in Pakistan), so how is this corruption? I'm not fond of the continually extended jail time, but he is a criminal. The story title should really be "The Dubai Financial Fraud Trap".
Oh I agree that he should be jailed for fraud, especially considering he admits to it, no argument from me there.
> I'm not fond of the continually extended jail time
This is kind of the point, because the bank (and I'm guessing ministry, politicians, etc.) seized assets, ignored or outright altered the terms of contracts, and participates in other shady business, the jail time seems like a convenient (and effective) means of suppressing push-back.
The spoils end up in private hands, those that were in charge of the banks, ministries, courts, etc. It is not only Dubai, you can see similar behaviour all over the world. But hey, if you want to play with the big dogs, you might get bit.
> I'm not fond of the continually extended jail time
This is kind of the point, because the bank (and I'm guessing ministry, politicians, etc.) seized assets, ignored or outright altered the terms of contracts, and participates in other shady business, the jail time seems like a convenient (and effective) means of suppressing push-back.
The spoils end up in private hands, those that were in charge of the banks, ministries, courts, etc. It is not only Dubai, you can see similar behaviour all over the world. But hey, if you want to play with the big dogs, you might get bit.
Did you read the article? He's already served a sentence well exceeding that of the crime he's alleged to have committed. Now he's in jail at the behest of his creditors.
Seriously, anywhere in the Middle East is a "NO GO".
Their rights are non-existent. The laws are draconian and arbitrary. And if you're a woman, you're effectively a 2nd class citizen. And good luck if you're raped as a woman (shocker! sex out of wedlock, so youre a criminal).
Sure, that can be construed as anti-Arab. I don't particularly care. The laws (or lack thereof), the slavery, treatment of women - all of these tell me what I need to know. And this is what passes as "Islamic" countries. Shitholes indeed.
Their rights are non-existent. The laws are draconian and arbitrary. And if you're a woman, you're effectively a 2nd class citizen. And good luck if you're raped as a woman (shocker! sex out of wedlock, so youre a criminal).
Sure, that can be construed as anti-Arab. I don't particularly care. The laws (or lack thereof), the slavery, treatment of women - all of these tell me what I need to know. And this is what passes as "Islamic" countries. Shitholes indeed.
A few things I noticed on my trip to Dubai.
1. Almost all of the labour comes from India and Pakistan. The native population is very small. So Dubai is an international city really, and it can't stop being one. The upkeep of everything they built is extremely labour intensive. If the immigrants went away the city would disintegrate back into sand within a few years.
2. The amount of wealth concentrated in such a tiny spot, with no military to protect it, is probably not sustainable. Just judging by the amount of effort that went into protecting castles in Europe. This place will get raided eventually.
3. Only the wealthiest of the wealthy can afford a home with a backyard in Dubai. So if you have one, appreciate it.
1. Almost all of the labour comes from India and Pakistan. The native population is very small. So Dubai is an international city really, and it can't stop being one. The upkeep of everything they built is extremely labour intensive. If the immigrants went away the city would disintegrate back into sand within a few years.
2. The amount of wealth concentrated in such a tiny spot, with no military to protect it, is probably not sustainable. Just judging by the amount of effort that went into protecting castles in Europe. This place will get raided eventually.
3. Only the wealthiest of the wealthy can afford a home with a backyard in Dubai. So if you have one, appreciate it.
>2. The amount of wealth concentrated in such a tiny spot, with no military to protect it, is probably not sustainable. Just judging by the amount of effort that went into protecting castles in Europe. This place will get raided eventually.
Isn't most of the wealth in stuff like real estate and finance? Those are pretty hard to raid with an army.
Isn't most of the wealth in stuff like real estate and finance? Those are pretty hard to raid with an army.
I would think the invaders would take the city and hold it. I've been to a Mall just outside of Dubai just dedicated to gold and jewellery. That mall alone probably had more wealth than many smaller cities in the world. So there's plenty to loot.
This reminded me:
Siege of Tyre 332 BC - Alexander the Great
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98inDANKtEs&t=290s
This reminded me:
Siege of Tyre 332 BC - Alexander the Great
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98inDANKtEs&t=290s
For everyone talking about the poor South Asian migrant workers in slave-like conditions there, note that most such workers would much rather be working in developed places like the US or Europe, but the immigration policies of those countries deny them that chance. Dubai is one of the few places in the region (and the world) that makes it very easy for anyone to come there and work, regardless of their race or nationality.
I.e. those workers wouldn't be slaving away there if western countries had more liberal immigration policies.
I.e. those workers wouldn't be slaving away there if western countries had more liberal immigration policies.
This is an awfully positive spin on things. Dubai does not encourage actual immigration, in fact it is virtually impossible to become a citizen. What they do have, and at massive scale, is a system where local companies can bring in what is effectively indentured labor, which will be immediately kicked out once their job is done.
bitcharmer(2)
Dictatorships are not holiday destinations or places for business - and this applies tenfold to UAE and Saudi Arabia. There has been plenty of warning over the years, enter these countries at your own risk.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sampson_(author)#Arres...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Gali
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Sampson_(author)#Arres...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Gali
You couldn't pay me to go there.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-har...
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-har...
Halfway down the article you find:
> Cornelius undoubtedly committed fraud. ... He did, however, admit that he used money for riskier endeavours than those for which it was lent. The bank provided credit for short-term needs, but it was instead used to fund unauthorised longer-term projects such as the Pakistan refinery and investments relating to the Plantation.
I am sorry, but play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
> Cornelius undoubtedly committed fraud. ... He did, however, admit that he used money for riskier endeavours than those for which it was lent. The bank provided credit for short-term needs, but it was instead used to fund unauthorised longer-term projects such as the Pakistan refinery and investments relating to the Plantation.
I am sorry, but play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
What surprises me is:
1) "Three plain-clothes policemen arrested Cornelius as he left the airport."
So, if he hadn't left the airport, he would have been safe?
2) "The bank convinced an English court to hand over all three of Cornelius’s properties in London"
Given his denial of a lawyer etc I'm surprised that an English court agreed to carry on without him. Where are the requests to allow him to participate?
1) "Three plain-clothes policemen arrested Cornelius as he left the airport."
So, if he hadn't left the airport, he would have been safe?
2) "The bank convinced an English court to hand over all three of Cornelius’s properties in London"
Given his denial of a lawyer etc I'm surprised that an English court agreed to carry on without him. Where are the requests to allow him to participate?
Wait a second, just a few hours ago these comments were made by this user:
[redacted]
Now all the down-voted ones are supposedly by: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=_hhkg
@dang, care to explain what transpired here? Are you protecting someone's account from down-votes?
Now all the down-voted ones are supposedly by: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=_hhkg
@dang, care to explain what transpired here? Are you protecting someone's account from down-votes?
When people email us with privacy concerns, we try to take care of them. This happens every day.
We try not to delete posts that got replies, because doing so would be unfair to the other commenters in the thread. At the same time, we don't want anyone to get in trouble from anything they posted to HN, so we help people who ask for help. We just try to do it with more precise tools than wholesale deletion.
This is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html.
We try not to delete posts that got replies, because doing so would be unfair to the other commenters in the thread. At the same time, we don't want anyone to get in trouble from anything they posted to HN, so we help people who ask for help. We just try to do it with more precise tools than wholesale deletion.
This is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html.
Dubai is not perfect. But it's not _that_ bad. And I think they're trying to be more welcoming to foreigners and everybody else and ironing out other issues. But it'll take time, and won't happen overnight.
Is the situation in Dubai getting worse over time, or is it getting better?
(btw, I'm just talking about Dubai and UAE in general. For other countries in the region all bets are off; I have no idea what goes on in places like Yemen, for instance).
I guess your perspective on UAE would depend on where you come from.
If you're from developed countries like, for example, Norway, Finland, and perhaps even USA, Dubai is going to look worse off.
But plenty of people in Dubai are from countries even worse. So for them, Dubai is definitely an upgrade.
Is the situation in Dubai getting worse over time, or is it getting better?
(btw, I'm just talking about Dubai and UAE in general. For other countries in the region all bets are off; I have no idea what goes on in places like Yemen, for instance).
I guess your perspective on UAE would depend on where you come from.
If you're from developed countries like, for example, Norway, Finland, and perhaps even USA, Dubai is going to look worse off.
But plenty of people in Dubai are from countries even worse. So for them, Dubai is definitely an upgrade.
Garbage journalism. Starts off by implying he's innocent, half way down you learn he did in fact defraud the bank to the tune of $350 million of a $500M loan, and done so with fabricated invoices. This was not a misunderstanding.
Why should I care if a spoiled white colonialist from Africa, already obscenely wealthy, spends his life in jail for defrauding a bank for $350M? Imho, this was actually justice served to a white collar criminal, for once.
Why should I care if a spoiled white colonialist from Africa, already obscenely wealthy, spends his life in jail for defrauding a bank for $350M? Imho, this was actually justice served to a white collar criminal, for once.
I would love to visit the middle-east (especially Egypt, so many cool ruins!) but as a gay man I refuse to support any country that persecutes people, whether it's women or minorities or anybody really.
Stoning, hanging and imprisoning people like me is a surefire way to not get my tourism dollars. Unfortunately, not many people feel the same way.
Stoning, hanging and imprisoning people like me is a surefire way to not get my tourism dollars. Unfortunately, not many people feel the same way.
During the 2007 financial crisis Dubai finance minister was always on radio and news network saying if they do default the banks can scrape the roads, bridge and building and bring it home with them since that is the collateral of the debt.
> Some prisoners don’t even have pillows
LOL. I just did eight years at two facilities in the USA, neither of which allowed pillows. Try going to sleep tonight without a pillow. It sucks.
> The temperature in the cells is kept low.
This is par for the course in most jails and prisons. They make an excuse that it "keeps down germs".
> The air conditioning runs noisily and ceaselessly
Same
> Strip lights are left on 24 hours a day.
I had five years in cells with 24/7 lighting
> Hanging up anything to dim the brightness is treated as a punishable offence
Same in every jail and prison
> Taps drip.
Is there a prison well-maintain enough anywhere in the world where all the mechanicals actually work?!
> There is no toilet paper, so prisoners have to use a hose.
It is common in the Middle-East to wash your undercarriage with a showerhead.
> Occasionally, they are allowed to exercise for 45 minutes in a small, concrete yard.
Better than I had in the USA. I never saw the sun for eight years.
> In Dubai, inmates have to buy everything, including soap and detergent for cleaning the cells, as well as newspapers and phone calls.
They were allowed newspapers.. this is better than any place I was at which had total news blackouts.
> A small range of food items can be bought from outside the prison, by placing an order through the police kitchen. Cornelius buys a hamburger twice a week and pizza on Thursdays.
Nice! Most jails don't have hot food ordering, but it is becoming more common as there is good money to be made.
> Martin Lonergan, who spent nine months in the cell next to Cornelius’s in 2019-20 after getting caught up in a separate business dispute, carried out an informal survey among the prisoners. He reckons inmates lucky enough to have money on their cards spend an average of around 150 dirhams a week, or $40.
Cheap! The jails I was in.. if you didn't max out the $100 a week limit you were considered a loser. The goal for most people was to find one of these "losers" and buy his remaining credit off him (for say, a 25% surcharge) so you could buy $200-300 of commissary a week.
> Prisoners report that they rarely see the jailers. Every night at 9pm cells are locked and the phone line to the guards is switched off. If an inmate has a problem, there’s no way to get assistance. Sometimes prisoners can be heard screaming for help.
Same in the Cook County Jail in Illinois. If you have a heart attack at night, good luck! They'll find your body the next day.
> Medical care is almost non-existent: a single doctor covers all the inmates. Under the rota system prisoners may be given an appointment six months down the line.
This seems quick for jail medical care.
> That didn’t stop covid from running rampant through the overcrowded prison. His block is reportedly being used as a dumping ground for anyone who might be infected.
LOL. When I was in the CCJ, the NYT declared it to be the epicenter of the entire COVID pandemic.
> A person close to Cornelius says he accepts that he “made mistakes”, but that he’d been assured by cch that he could borrow money to invest if he submitted “certain invoices in a certain way”. Though Cornelius never dealt directly with dib, he has said he was led to understand that the bank was “supportive” of this chicanery.
Yeah, if you don't have it in writing, you're on the hook. My personal manager at PayPal was very supportive of me running a private TV torrent tracker, but if I'd had to subpoena him to court I'm sure he would have told a very different story :D
> In most Western countries, debt is considered a civil matter. Charles Dickens’s father was sent to a debtors’ prison and Dickens’s depictions of these prisons’ horrific conditions in his novels bolstered a campaign that led to their eventual abolition in Britain in 1869. The uae, by contrast, still treats debt as a crime.
It is still a crime in the USA. I met many people in jail incarcerated for debt. Legally you can't be incarcerated for debt, but there is a way around it that courts in the USA use. If the judge orders you to repay a sum of money and you fail to do it on time, then you have disobeyed the judge and committed contempt of court and are jailed for that, not the debt. Easy!
LOL. I just did eight years at two facilities in the USA, neither of which allowed pillows. Try going to sleep tonight without a pillow. It sucks.
> The temperature in the cells is kept low.
This is par for the course in most jails and prisons. They make an excuse that it "keeps down germs".
> The air conditioning runs noisily and ceaselessly
Same
> Strip lights are left on 24 hours a day.
I had five years in cells with 24/7 lighting
> Hanging up anything to dim the brightness is treated as a punishable offence
Same in every jail and prison
> Taps drip.
Is there a prison well-maintain enough anywhere in the world where all the mechanicals actually work?!
> There is no toilet paper, so prisoners have to use a hose.
It is common in the Middle-East to wash your undercarriage with a showerhead.
> Occasionally, they are allowed to exercise for 45 minutes in a small, concrete yard.
Better than I had in the USA. I never saw the sun for eight years.
> In Dubai, inmates have to buy everything, including soap and detergent for cleaning the cells, as well as newspapers and phone calls.
They were allowed newspapers.. this is better than any place I was at which had total news blackouts.
> A small range of food items can be bought from outside the prison, by placing an order through the police kitchen. Cornelius buys a hamburger twice a week and pizza on Thursdays.
Nice! Most jails don't have hot food ordering, but it is becoming more common as there is good money to be made.
> Martin Lonergan, who spent nine months in the cell next to Cornelius’s in 2019-20 after getting caught up in a separate business dispute, carried out an informal survey among the prisoners. He reckons inmates lucky enough to have money on their cards spend an average of around 150 dirhams a week, or $40.
Cheap! The jails I was in.. if you didn't max out the $100 a week limit you were considered a loser. The goal for most people was to find one of these "losers" and buy his remaining credit off him (for say, a 25% surcharge) so you could buy $200-300 of commissary a week.
> Prisoners report that they rarely see the jailers. Every night at 9pm cells are locked and the phone line to the guards is switched off. If an inmate has a problem, there’s no way to get assistance. Sometimes prisoners can be heard screaming for help.
Same in the Cook County Jail in Illinois. If you have a heart attack at night, good luck! They'll find your body the next day.
> Medical care is almost non-existent: a single doctor covers all the inmates. Under the rota system prisoners may be given an appointment six months down the line.
This seems quick for jail medical care.
> That didn’t stop covid from running rampant through the overcrowded prison. His block is reportedly being used as a dumping ground for anyone who might be infected.
LOL. When I was in the CCJ, the NYT declared it to be the epicenter of the entire COVID pandemic.
> A person close to Cornelius says he accepts that he “made mistakes”, but that he’d been assured by cch that he could borrow money to invest if he submitted “certain invoices in a certain way”. Though Cornelius never dealt directly with dib, he has said he was led to understand that the bank was “supportive” of this chicanery.
Yeah, if you don't have it in writing, you're on the hook. My personal manager at PayPal was very supportive of me running a private TV torrent tracker, but if I'd had to subpoena him to court I'm sure he would have told a very different story :D
> In most Western countries, debt is considered a civil matter. Charles Dickens’s father was sent to a debtors’ prison and Dickens’s depictions of these prisons’ horrific conditions in his novels bolstered a campaign that led to their eventual abolition in Britain in 1869. The uae, by contrast, still treats debt as a crime.
It is still a crime in the USA. I met many people in jail incarcerated for debt. Legally you can't be incarcerated for debt, but there is a way around it that courts in the USA use. If the judge orders you to repay a sum of money and you fail to do it on time, then you have disobeyed the judge and committed contempt of court and are jailed for that, not the debt. Easy!
TLDR; many countries have it bad. The USA does still have the highest incarceration /capital. Don't forget that.
ProTip: Never ever open a credit card in the UAE, or just never deal with anybody on credit here. Cash, cash, cash only.
ProTip: "Cornelius undoubtedly committed fraud", according to the article. Never commit fraud in the UAE.
I'd expand it to never do business in the Middle East. It's just not worth it.
I was studying in Saudi Arabia (at KAUST) and my daughter got kidnapped for two weeks when I refused to comply with some work conditions they were trying to impose on me. Granted, the guys that did this were not arabs, they were two professors from Australia and the US, but still, it was weird how everybody turned their back on this as it seemed like the standard procedure to follow when one does not cooperate. WTF.
Never do business in/with the Middle East.
Never do business in/with the Middle East.
How do some australian dudes not get trouble from their government for participating/organizing a kidnapping to blackmail somebody?
The US persons especially.
If you know more about what I could do, please get in touch (email on my profile). I am not from Australia or the US, so I don't really know how to start with such procedure.
Also, it was such a traumatic experience that I was truly relieved when me and my family were back at home and safe, I wanted to just forget about it and rebuild my life at the moment.
Now I'm in a much better place so I'm looking to, at least, share my story; particularly with young students, like I was at the time, so I could prevent them from going to these places where abuse is common and rampant.
Also, it was such a traumatic experience that I was truly relieved when me and my family were back at home and safe, I wanted to just forget about it and rebuild my life at the moment.
Now I'm in a much better place so I'm looking to, at least, share my story; particularly with young students, like I was at the time, so I could prevent them from going to these places where abuse is common and rampant.
My limited understanding of the US law in regards to this is that if something is illegal in the US, the US persons are liable even if they commit the crime abroad.
So they should still be criminally liable.
Australia should have something similar, but I know even less about the relevant details.
I wish I could be of more help.
I wish I could be of more help.
Even in the US people get away with all sorts of stuff when there's no evidence.
It's not worth it for you perhaps; for others, international companies, it can be very lucrative to operate in or through Dubai.
Does "fraud" here mean "fraud" there? What is the Arabic word for fraud? Are there multiple words for it with nuanced meanings?
I don't know the answers, but I can imagine such an arrangement where saying "I can pay X amount of money owed on my credit card at Y date" and then failing to do so for any variety of reasons could be seen as fraudulent.
I think the real LPT is to be darn sure you know the law and the language in strict places, and if you can't, be unreasonably careful.
I don't know the answers, but I can imagine such an arrangement where saying "I can pay X amount of money owed on my credit card at Y date" and then failing to do so for any variety of reasons could be seen as fraudulent.
I think the real LPT is to be darn sure you know the law and the language in strict places, and if you can't, be unreasonably careful.
Oh please. This is absolutely nonsense. I have lived in Dubai. Used a credit card and when I have left, I have closed the credit card.
The irony being of course, that cash is itself a promissory note.
throw3838(4)