Bringing the Framework Laptop to more of the world(frame.work)
frame.work
Bringing the Framework Laptop to more of the world
https://frame.work/at/en/blog/bringing-the-framework-laptop-to-more-of-the-world
212 comments
This is a point that people should remember if they're thinking about purchasing a framework. This is still very much beta hardware.
The battery drain is annoying, it's around 30-50% per night depending on what addon cards you have. I've got a setup that puts it close to 40% per night so the laptop has to live on charger over night if I want to use it the next day.
However, the thing that's really stopping me from using my laptop (it has sat in my office for the last 3 weeks with its lid closed) is the touchpad. https://community.frame.work/t/subpar-touchpad/3962 External mouse only.
The mac-book killer was very much hyperbole from paid reviewers.
Edit: Also, the I'll throw in the speakers being absolute garbage as well. Think 1 step above 90s pc speaker. And the sound device has a constant background static when using headphones which clicks on when there's sound and then 2 seconds after any sound being played clicks off.
The battery drain is annoying, it's around 30-50% per night depending on what addon cards you have. I've got a setup that puts it close to 40% per night so the laptop has to live on charger over night if I want to use it the next day.
However, the thing that's really stopping me from using my laptop (it has sat in my office for the last 3 weeks with its lid closed) is the touchpad. https://community.frame.work/t/subpar-touchpad/3962 External mouse only.
The mac-book killer was very much hyperbole from paid reviewers.
Edit: Also, the I'll throw in the speakers being absolute garbage as well. Think 1 step above 90s pc speaker. And the sound device has a constant background static when using headphones which clicks on when there's sound and then 2 seconds after any sound being played clicks off.
Anecdotal, so obviously YMMV.
On battery - I am using "sleep then hibernate", which typically means 4-6% of battery drain overnight which happens while it is in first ~2hrs of sleep mode. Of course it means you now spend 30sec booting up, but I can live with that.
On touchpad - weird, my experience is opposite. I'd say this is the closest to Macbook experience I had, no issues whatsoever.
Speakers are a bit quiet, agreed, no static or anything, we occasionally use it to watch Netflix with my wife, while away from TV, interchangeably with her Macbook and definitely wouldn't call it garbage.
So, all in all I am in "quite happy" camp. Yes, not Macbook killer, but for me it is close enough and without any major inconveniences, but with all OSS benefits and presumably infinite upgradeability. I use Arch btw :)
On battery - I am using "sleep then hibernate", which typically means 4-6% of battery drain overnight which happens while it is in first ~2hrs of sleep mode. Of course it means you now spend 30sec booting up, but I can live with that.
On touchpad - weird, my experience is opposite. I'd say this is the closest to Macbook experience I had, no issues whatsoever.
Speakers are a bit quiet, agreed, no static or anything, we occasionally use it to watch Netflix with my wife, while away from TV, interchangeably with her Macbook and definitely wouldn't call it garbage.
So, all in all I am in "quite happy" camp. Yes, not Macbook killer, but for me it is close enough and without any major inconveniences, but with all OSS benefits and presumably infinite upgradeability. I use Arch btw :)
Sleep then hibernate was a game changer. Pretty convoluted to setup (PopOS in my case) and still kind of a pain (takes longer to resume than I'd like) but definitely an improvement.
I have other issues with it (USB-C DP alt-mode, fan noise) but I've already ranted about those on HN.
I have other issues with it (USB-C DP alt-mode, fan noise) but I've already ranted about those on HN.
Has anyone done investigation into which components are still 'alive' during the sleep ?
This can be done with an infrared camera, should be able to see which components remain hot after a long period of 'sleep', or a voltmeter for the more electrically inclined.
My bet is that its some kind of bus that isnt powering down and continually waking up the devices on it.
This can be done with an infrared camera, should be able to see which components remain hot after a long period of 'sleep', or a voltmeter for the more electrically inclined.
My bet is that its some kind of bus that isnt powering down and continually waking up the devices on it.
The sleep then hibernate sounds promising. But is it something you need to configure yourself?
On Linux? Yes.
Changing the mode is just a matter of changing one line in one file. But getting hibernate to actually work is a bit of hassle, especially if you have any kind of encryption or non-standard file system. This said - I managed to get mine working on encrypted Btrfs.
Changing the mode is just a matter of changing one line in one file. But getting hibernate to actually work is a bit of hassle, especially if you have any kind of encryption or non-standard file system. This said - I managed to get mine working on encrypted Btrfs.
At some point I tried to have dual boot with windows and encryption and hibernate working. No fun and no success.
What linux distro do you use? I always encountered the problem that after doing some work to get things going everything had to be redone after the next upgrade. Do you expect to have this issue?
I don't think upgrades change this configuration. I use Arch, which is a rolling release distro, so maybe this is a factor, but I didn't have any issues with upgrades, apart from one time when Framework released FW upgrade few months ago, which overwrote the boot record (took 15min to fix/recover), but that is a different story...
Genuine question here. I run gentoo on an NVMe drive and I have zero reason to use sleep or hibernate as my machine gets to the DE in under 30s.
What use cases are there that absolutely requires these features when boot times are so short?
What use cases are there that absolutely requires these features when boot times are so short?
Sleep and hibernate are about persisting state and not about boot time. I don't want to spend time reopening everything and setting everything up when I come back to my computer. I just want to continue where I left off.
The way I have things set up, my browser opens all my last tabs and I have things set to start the browser and a few other programs at boot.
What programs are you using in such a fashion that simply having the program autostart at boot is not feasible?
What programs are you using in such a fashion that simply having the program autostart at boot is not feasible?
My code is stopped inside the debugger when I've finally reproduced a bug. My wife calls for dinner. I close my laptop and stick it in a safe place where a kid won't spill something sticky on it. After dinner I open up the laptop and the debugger is right there in the same spot, I don't have to spend another 30 minutes trying to reproduce the bug.
I actually find it a bit surprising that you aren’t aware of a difference. Have you used a MacBook recently? If no, I highly suggest you try it. Once you’re used to instant startups, waiting for a boot is just frustrating.
This.
I have an old 2013 MBP that wakes up from sleep quicker than I can open the lid.
This is one of the niceties I've lost when I moved to a PC last year (the others can mostly be attributed to cheap "enterprise" hardware).
My current laptop takes longer to wake from sleep while also sucking the battery dry. Talk about lose-lose.
I have an old 2013 MBP that wakes up from sleep quicker than I can open the lid.
This is one of the niceties I've lost when I moved to a PC last year (the others can mostly be attributed to cheap "enterprise" hardware).
My current laptop takes longer to wake from sleep while also sucking the battery dry. Talk about lose-lose.
Debugging has already been mentioned. I run lots of programs that take several hours too, be that copying files or transcoding or processing some data. Right now I have something running that won't be done for two days.
And when I have 20 programs open, even if it only takes 15-30 seconds per program to get them going again that's a bunch of time I didn't need to waste. And even the programs I have that autostart still require prodding to get them into the right state.
And when I have 20 programs open, even if it only takes 15-30 seconds per program to get them going again that's a bunch of time I didn't need to waste. And even the programs I have that autostart still require prodding to get them into the right state.
I also have programs that can take weeks to run, but I just leave my computer on and running in those cases. I have never trusted sleep or hibernate to properly handle those situations and I don't want to lose data. Not to mention, if I'm pausing it while its running it will take even longer to finish.
Debugging I can understand, as that's a bit of a different beast than a program that can run unattended.
Debugging I can understand, as that's a bit of a different beast than a program that can run unattended.
>What programs are you using in such a fashion that simply having the program autostart at boot is not feasible?
Developing an application in Lisp and there's all kinds of state in the REPL right now. Gotta pick kid up from preschool, just close the lid and it'll be exactly as I left it when I come home.
Have a document open in an ad-hoc fashion (i.e. it's some PDF for work, not something on my autostart list) and I get interrupted. Close lid. Document is still there when I open it again, and what's more it's open to the exact spot I stopped reading.
Developing an application in Lisp and there's all kinds of state in the REPL right now. Gotta pick kid up from preschool, just close the lid and it'll be exactly as I left it when I come home.
Have a document open in an ad-hoc fashion (i.e. it's some PDF for work, not something on my autostart list) and I get interrupted. Close lid. Document is still there when I open it again, and what's more it's open to the exact spot I stopped reading.
I guess I also don't understand the "closing the lid to leave" behavior as well. My laptop is integrated into a desktop setup with external monitors and it only gets closed when I actually take it out of the house. Otherwise screen locking and letting the monitors go sleep is fine with me
>My laptop is integrated into a desktop setup
Say no more. In my experience most of the "linux is fine for laptop usage" folks tend to be "laptop is actually a desktop that I rarely if ever take anywhere" folks also.
Say no more. In my experience most of the "linux is fine for laptop usage" folks tend to be "laptop is actually a desktop that I rarely if ever take anywhere" folks also.
>What programs are you using in such a fashion that simply having the program autostart at boot is not feasible?
As a simple example open documents in libreoffice. I don't want to automatically start LO every time I turn on computer. If I have documents open I want to be able to return to the same place when I came back.
As a simple example open documents in libreoffice. I don't want to automatically start LO every time I turn on computer. If I have documents open I want to be able to return to the same place when I came back.
Some Linux DEs have a "reopen windows at login" setting. I remember KDE used to have this some 10 years ago, while still on version 3. So if LO is open when you shut down, it'll bring it back up. Otherwise, it won't.
I don't know if it's able to handle reopening the last document, and even less if it can take you back to the position where you left off. This is probably application-dependent.
However, like others here, I would much rather have a functioning sleep that allows the computer to both wake up fast and not drain the battery. I don't really care for it to check my mail while it's in my backpack without any kind of network access, or whatever it is it does instead of sleeping.
I don't know if it's able to handle reopening the last document, and even less if it can take you back to the position where you left off. This is probably application-dependent.
However, like others here, I would much rather have a functioning sleep that allows the computer to both wake up fast and not drain the battery. I don't really care for it to check my mail while it's in my backpack without any kind of network access, or whatever it is it does instead of sleeping.
The task I want to do is quick, and I don't want to spend 30 seconds waiting to start something that might finish in less time than that.
A bunch of browser tabs are open, and I don't feel like recovering them at relaunch.
I have my app windows set up exactly the way I like them, down to the pixel.
I'm used to my phone, TV, microwave, wristwatch, stereo, and car not needing to boot up.
A bunch of browser tabs are open, and I don't feel like recovering them at relaunch.
I have my app windows set up exactly the way I like them, down to the pixel.
I'm used to my phone, TV, microwave, wristwatch, stereo, and car not needing to boot up.
Window tiling has killed off my need to worry about app window position.
I used to have a nasty habit of opening a text editor during the day and taking random notes during phone calls or as I worked. Several forced restarts (administrative, accidental or hardware related) forced me to start using those sticky-note apps. I've moved to Joplin now (very structured, supports markdown, syncs to dropbox periodically, is multiplatform)
The browser thing resonates though. It's not just which websites are open, but what state they're in (ie: logged in, midway through filling out a long form or survey). In a pinch I'll just 'kill -9 firefox' so after the reboot it automatically restores tabs and windows, but it's still messy. Sites that require authentication will just bounce you to the login page and may not "remember" where you were trying to get to. Maybe we need hibernate for browsers.
I used to have a nasty habit of opening a text editor during the day and taking random notes during phone calls or as I worked. Several forced restarts (administrative, accidental or hardware related) forced me to start using those sticky-note apps. I've moved to Joplin now (very structured, supports markdown, syncs to dropbox periodically, is multiplatform)
The browser thing resonates though. It's not just which websites are open, but what state they're in (ie: logged in, midway through filling out a long form or survey). In a pinch I'll just 'kill -9 firefox' so after the reboot it automatically restores tabs and windows, but it's still messy. Sites that require authentication will just bounce you to the login page and may not "remember" where you were trying to get to. Maybe we need hibernate for browsers.
I thought browsers preserved session cookies when configured to open previous tabs on launch.
I don't think I've ever noticed a logout from restarting a browser.
I don't think I've ever noticed a logout from restarting a browser.
Same here, as long as firefox is set up for it then everything is restores (don't think there's a solution for half-filled forms though)
I also use window tiling, everything goes where I want it to be and quickly. I almost never have to putz with placement unless I'm doing something new.
Why even turn the computer off? Is there a reason to not leave it plugged in and just let the monitors fall asleep?
I could understand if you're away from a plug and/or on the move though.
Also if cars have computers, don't they cold boot when you turn the car on? Phones and smart watches never truly "turn off" their screen goes into sleep mode which is fast to turn on
I could understand if you're away from a plug and/or on the move though.
Also if cars have computers, don't they cold boot when you turn the car on? Phones and smart watches never truly "turn off" their screen goes into sleep mode which is fast to turn on
I'm also curious why people are so keen on needing a device to be powered on and ready to go within a second or two.
On my Framework (running Windows) I have it set up to hibernate when the lid closes to preserve battery. It takes about 10 seconds to get back into the desktop when I open the lid again. It's not like I'm opening/closing the lid dozens of times a day; I open it, work for a few hours, then close it. It's not like a phone where I power it on for a few seconds every hour or so to check notifications.
On my Framework (running Windows) I have it set up to hibernate when the lid closes to preserve battery. It takes about 10 seconds to get back into the desktop when I open the lid again. It's not like I'm opening/closing the lid dozens of times a day; I open it, work for a few hours, then close it. It's not like a phone where I power it on for a few seconds every hour or so to check notifications.
> I'm also curious why people are so keen on needing a device to be powered on and ready to go within a second or two.
Because it’s way more convenient. Next time you go to open your front door, take out your phone, start a timer for 30s, and then put the key in the door once the timer expires. Once you’re used to something being near-instant, there is no going back. Waiting is frustrating.
Because it’s way more convenient. Next time you go to open your front door, take out your phone, start a timer for 30s, and then put the key in the door once the timer expires. Once you’re used to something being near-instant, there is no going back. Waiting is frustrating.
Not judging, but this thread goes to show how differently people use computers and what they’re willing to tolerate.
Personally I haven’t used hibernate in over a decade and my machines typically run 6 months until I have to reboot for updates. If I had to wait ~10 seconds every time I wanted to google something, I wouldn’t use my PC nearly as often as I do today. Maybe that’s why mobile is dominant in so many categories like web search.
Personally I haven’t used hibernate in over a decade and my machines typically run 6 months until I have to reboot for updates. If I had to wait ~10 seconds every time I wanted to google something, I wouldn’t use my PC nearly as often as I do today. Maybe that’s why mobile is dominant in so many categories like web search.
Yeah, but it's not like every time you want to search the web you're opening up your laptop, going to a browser, doing the search, and then closing the laptop, right?
You're right that this is why I use my phone to do quick searches so often- it's on and searching within seconds. Even faster to use my voice to search instead of typing.
You're right that this is why I use my phone to do quick searches so often- it's on and searching within seconds. Even faster to use my voice to search instead of typing.
The thing is, your phone never goes to "sleep" or powers off in those situations. The screen is off, that's all
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I also do have the battery drain issue running 21.10.
I'm generally otherwise super happy with it though. The speakers don't bother me much, they're good enough for calls, and if I'm actually trying to listen to music I'll just use actual bluetooth speakers or headphones.
I'm most happy about the fact that they put an actually decent screen and key switches. Many other laptops that run Linux have shitty 1080p screens and shitty keyboards.
And the fact that I was able to shove in 2TB of SSD and 64GB of RAM all bought at market pricing, not at Lenovo or Apple pricing.
I'm generally otherwise super happy with it though. The speakers don't bother me much, they're good enough for calls, and if I'm actually trying to listen to music I'll just use actual bluetooth speakers or headphones.
I'm most happy about the fact that they put an actually decent screen and key switches. Many other laptops that run Linux have shitty 1080p screens and shitty keyboards.
And the fact that I was able to shove in 2TB of SSD and 64GB of RAM all bought at market pricing, not at Lenovo or Apple pricing.
Some big points there, I can't even get the 64gb Macbook because they decided not to bring more than 32 into my country. So being able to get whatever I want from amazon at market rates is amazing (and probably the biggest feature of this laptop)
There is an issue with ram timings not being supported that affects the more flashy ram chips. I was lucky enough that it didn't affect the 32gb module I bought but it could've been a return (they need to update the supported ram timings in the bios but haven't)
I really like the keyboard, although I would prefer the layout was more macbooky (the function key kills me but I've swapped it with the ctrl) and the screen I'm pretty happy with. The 100% / 200% scaling thats supported in fedora though is awkward. 100 is a bit squinty 200 is waay to big.
I like the laptop but have struggled to use it. I'm starting to wonder if my touchpad is actually defective.
There is an issue with ram timings not being supported that affects the more flashy ram chips. I was lucky enough that it didn't affect the 32gb module I bought but it could've been a return (they need to update the supported ram timings in the bios but haven't)
I really like the keyboard, although I would prefer the layout was more macbooky (the function key kills me but I've swapped it with the ctrl) and the screen I'm pretty happy with. The 100% / 200% scaling thats supported in fedora though is awkward. 100 is a bit squinty 200 is waay to big.
I like the laptop but have struggled to use it. I'm starting to wonder if my touchpad is actually defective.
Yeah personally I've settled with 100% with larger fonts. I probably spend 90% of my time in web browser + coding + terminal combined and they all handle arbitrary fractional scaling well from within the app.
And then maybe 5% of the time in graphics editing for which it doesn't matter.
For other locally run apps, scaling at 125% or 150% would be perfect but I think it's just a matter of time before Linux supports it properly without eating CPU.
And then maybe 5% of the time in graphics editing for which it doesn't matter.
For other locally run apps, scaling at 125% or 150% would be perfect but I think it's just a matter of time before Linux supports it properly without eating CPU.
If you can use wayland on your distro, it can do that fractional scaling. I think I settled on like 140%
Oh yeah I am on Wayland. (X didn't work well for me at all, choppy mouse motions.) Fractional scaling works, just seems to consume more CPU than 100% or 200% though.
I love the 64 GB of RAM. With Chrome and Firefox both running with mountains of tabs, I still don't run out of memory! Chrome performance starts tanking for other reasons before I get close to hitting swap. Take that web developers!
Running arch with wayland and sway on a framework. Setting up sleep-then-hibernate via systemd works beautifully. I only lose a few % overnight.
That’s the thing with running Linux as a desktop, you’ve gotta tweak it to get it just right.
Battery life is a non issue for me on the framework. The speakers on the other hand is a brutal downgrade.
More thoughts here comparing a 2018 mbp: https://erock.io/2021/11/01/framework-vs-mbp.html
That’s the thing with running Linux as a desktop, you’ve gotta tweak it to get it just right.
Battery life is a non issue for me on the framework. The speakers on the other hand is a brutal downgrade.
More thoughts here comparing a 2018 mbp: https://erock.io/2021/11/01/framework-vs-mbp.html
> That’s the thing with running Linux as a desktop, you’ve gotta tweak it to get it just right.
If you're running arch with wayland and sway, then yes absolutely. For people who stick with the default (often Gnome) I haven't had to tweak anything in many years. So I would just s/Linux/customized Linux/ or something like that. Mainly it only matters because some people will be scared away by "you’ve gotta tweak it to get it just right" so accuracy is important to me.
If you're running arch with wayland and sway, then yes absolutely. For people who stick with the default (often Gnome) I haven't had to tweak anything in many years. So I would just s/Linux/customized Linux/ or something like that. Mainly it only matters because some people will be scared away by "you’ve gotta tweak it to get it just right" so accuracy is important to me.
What distro are you on with hibernate working out of the box (with an encrypted filesystem hopefully)?
Yes, I'll be excited about version 2. Version 1 just has too many missed opportunities. For example, a single type-c bay could accommodate two type-A ports, or one port and one microsd reader. Wasting a whole one on a reader is dumb when most laptops just have one stuck somewhere. Give me a bay with a pop-out bluetooth mouse in it. Give me a non-chiclet keyboard and a touchpad with real buttons and a dGPU option and a removable battery in standard and extended sizes.
Why buy a laptop with four interchangeable ports when my normal laptop has two USB-A, one USB-C, HDMI, microsd, and a charge port all at the same time? Heck you can't even charge the Framework unless you leave one port as USB-C.
Why buy a laptop with four interchangeable ports when my normal laptop has two USB-A, one USB-C, HDMI, microsd, and a charge port all at the same time? Heck you can't even charge the Framework unless you leave one port as USB-C.
There's been discussions about dual-port expansion cards on the Framework forums[0], but the problem is finding a chip that will pass through all the things you expect USB-C to handle over both ports. This is actually a larger problem with USB-C, as each altmode is basically a different spec that reuses the same connector, with lots of negotiation and custom electrical requirements involved. So any moderately niche application will either require custom silicon or have absurd limitations.
You could obviously wire up an off-the-shelf USB3 hub controller in such a way as to get two USB3 Type-C ports in an expansion card. (I don't think two type-As would fit.) However, you won't be able to charge the laptop, use external displays, or connect external GPUs through either of the ports... which is kind of the expectation that people have with Type-C ports. If they sold such an expansion card, there would probably be plenty of people angry that they can't just have this one card for charging and dongles, and then fill their other bays with storage drives.
Related example: fiber-optic Type-C cables for long-run use basically only come in two flavors, DP and Thunderbolt. And the source device has to use that one specific altmode; there is no downgrading to USB 3 or 2.
[0] https://community.frame.work/t/dual-usb-c-expansion-card-moc...
You could obviously wire up an off-the-shelf USB3 hub controller in such a way as to get two USB3 Type-C ports in an expansion card. (I don't think two type-As would fit.) However, you won't be able to charge the laptop, use external displays, or connect external GPUs through either of the ports... which is kind of the expectation that people have with Type-C ports. If they sold such an expansion card, there would probably be plenty of people angry that they can't just have this one card for charging and dongles, and then fill their other bays with storage drives.
Related example: fiber-optic Type-C cables for long-run use basically only come in two flavors, DP and Thunderbolt. And the source device has to use that one specific altmode; there is no downgrading to USB 3 or 2.
[0] https://community.frame.work/t/dual-usb-c-expansion-card-moc...
I don't know if that is expected. I don't because of the usual shitshow with USB-C.
USB C is a case study in "There's no way that can be according to spec" and being disappointed every single time
but the problem is finding a chip that will pass through all the things you expect USB-C to handle over both ports.
Why bother when no other manufacturer does? Just give me two USB 2.0 ports for peripherals.
Why bother when no other manufacturer does? Just give me two USB 2.0 ports for peripherals.
FWIW, I have an HDMI and an sd card reader expansion card that I keep in my backpack. I rarely need them buy they are small and super easy/quick to swap out that I just remove a USB port and put those in when I need them. I had a lenovo with all-the-ports and I feel like I have a lot more with the framework since I can put in what I need when I need it. I haven't yet needed an sd card reader while charging while plugged in to HDMI, while using the other port for something else, and not had the ports I need.
But I was (and still am) pretty critical of the headphone dongle that apple and many android phones make you use, so there may be some hypocrisy in what I say.
But I was (and still am) pretty critical of the headphone dongle that apple and many android phones make you use, so there may be some hypocrisy in what I say.
Why keep a microsd expansion card when a regular microsd card reader would be half the size and plug into the USB port without removing anything?
The biggest problem with headphone dongles for me and my family is that they don’t last. The Apple one has great sound but doesn’t take long to start cutting out (from getting yanked on in a pocket, probably).
I bought an all-metal, tiny USB-C to 3.5mm dongle and it’s started cutting out, too - and it wasn’t cheap, at about $40.
I bought an all-metal, tiny USB-C to 3.5mm dongle and it’s started cutting out, too - and it wasn’t cheap, at about $40.
Another point in favour of version 2 is the timing that ended with them releasing with Intel 11th gen rather than Intel 12th gen or Zen 3/4 really is unfortunate. 11th gen Intel is not as much a gain from 8th gen Intel in power usage or performance as either 12th gen or zen3 are from 11th gen
Well common then bunj. Jump on the kicads and fart out a add on board for your dual usb type A's, or any of the other add ons you mentioned. I mean hell why not just go all out and slap usb-c double sided on a single PCB! You should be able to cram at least 4 in the same area!
Point is you can do that w/ framework. Fat luck getting dell or some other behemoth to design a device you can do that with. They have done a stellar job given how many have had hopes and dreams to do similar but haven't even got a product in people's hands.
Point is you can do that w/ framework. Fat luck getting dell or some other behemoth to design a device you can do that with. They have done a stellar job given how many have had hopes and dreams to do similar but haven't even got a product in people's hands.
Had mine for a couple weeks, has some trouble sleeping / waking in Ubuntu 21.10 but aside from that (and the poor speakers) it's basically perfect. Trackpad is good and I don't see any battery drain issues. Definitely easier experience than getting Linux on other modern laptops.
??? I absolutely love the touchpad on the Framework. I think people got spoiled by Macbook touchpads- no, and I mean NO, Linux/Windows laptops out there have a comparable touchpad to the Macbook. What the Framework has is good for what's available. Honestly I don't mind tap-to-click vs. press-to-click.
I can agree that the speakers aren't stellar but that's something I don't care about on a laptop since I always have on headphones or I'm just using the speakers for video conferencing or something. Never experienced any background static when using headphones.
I can agree that the speakers aren't stellar but that's something I don't care about on a laptop since I always have on headphones or I'm just using the speakers for video conferencing or something. Never experienced any background static when using headphones.
I think the macbook ones are hot garbage compared to my lenovo. I think people get a bit brainwashed when it comes to mac hardware.
>I think people got spoiled by Macbook touchpads- no, and I mean NO, Linux/Windows laptops out there have a comparable touchpad to the Macbook. What the Framework has is good for what's available.
That's a dealbreaker for me. I'm not one of those people that carries around en external mouse and stuff. I bought a laptop for a reason. "Better than the hot garbage trackpad on my wife's Dell" is not good enough.
That's a dealbreaker for me. I'm not one of those people that carries around en external mouse and stuff. I bought a laptop for a reason. "Better than the hot garbage trackpad on my wife's Dell" is not good enough.
Then sad to say you will be stuck on Apple hardware for the foreseeable future. It's all a matter of preference, too- I used to have a newer Dell and thought the trackpad was totally fine.
Yeah, I've resigned myself to paying the apple tax for a while.
My wife has a recent (2019-vintage?) Dell XPS and I can't stand using it. It's just a horrible machine, despite Windows 10 supposedly being good.
- Sleep when closing the lid barely if ever works (netflix keeps playing, etc.)
- When it does sleep, the network doesn't work when you wake it back up (have to reconnect to wifi manually)
- Randomly spinning up the fans when it's supposed to be asleep. Wake it up to discover windows update decided to do whatever it does
- Trackpad just doesn't work well in general. Lousy palm rejection, fiddly multi-touch
- Camera is on the bottom of the monitor so everyone on zoom gets a great view of your knuckles, and up your nose.
It's like nobody at Dell dogfoods their own products. It's just a thoroughly shit-tier machine.
My wife has a recent (2019-vintage?) Dell XPS and I can't stand using it. It's just a horrible machine, despite Windows 10 supposedly being good.
- Sleep when closing the lid barely if ever works (netflix keeps playing, etc.)
- When it does sleep, the network doesn't work when you wake it back up (have to reconnect to wifi manually)
- Randomly spinning up the fans when it's supposed to be asleep. Wake it up to discover windows update decided to do whatever it does
- Trackpad just doesn't work well in general. Lousy palm rejection, fiddly multi-touch
- Camera is on the bottom of the monitor so everyone on zoom gets a great view of your knuckles, and up your nose.
It's like nobody at Dell dogfoods their own products. It's just a thoroughly shit-tier machine.
They did change the audio chip due to supply chain issues. My laptop was right around the time they changed so I'm not sure which I've got. But there's an audible tone and then static and then an audible tone when there's no sound. So it's obvious that it's switching on and then off.
This is with a pair of akg K371.
This is with a pair of akg K371.
Your link actually answered your question in the 2nd reply.
>That’s not subpar, that’s standard. There’s a reason why macbook touchpads are so widely praised.
Trackpad improvement in current gen PC is a very recent thing. After people trashing PC laptop trackpad for years, and Microsoft throwing in some R&D money to help improve the situation.
And again if you are comparing to a Macbook, most PC speaker has been garbage for years. Only when reviewer start comparing their PC laptop speakers to Macbook did they start to put effort into improving it.
I dont know any reviewer actually said it is Macbook Killer. It would actually be a stupid thing to say. ( Show them to me so I will take notes ). But I am not surprised because current generation so called reviewers have practically little hardware and supply chain knowledge.
There are of compromise being made to have it all fixable. But they also put in the extra effort in motherboard reliability design. And things that aren't so obvious. Compared to Macbook which is all integrated. ( Although that is changing now, you see more individual components "blocks" being used )
I think it is an expectation problem. And may be people should not have overhyped it so much.
>That’s not subpar, that’s standard. There’s a reason why macbook touchpads are so widely praised.
Trackpad improvement in current gen PC is a very recent thing. After people trashing PC laptop trackpad for years, and Microsoft throwing in some R&D money to help improve the situation.
And again if you are comparing to a Macbook, most PC speaker has been garbage for years. Only when reviewer start comparing their PC laptop speakers to Macbook did they start to put effort into improving it.
I dont know any reviewer actually said it is Macbook Killer. It would actually be a stupid thing to say. ( Show them to me so I will take notes ). But I am not surprised because current generation so called reviewers have practically little hardware and supply chain knowledge.
There are of compromise being made to have it all fixable. But they also put in the extra effort in motherboard reliability design. And things that aren't so obvious. Compared to Macbook which is all integrated. ( Although that is changing now, you see more individual components "blocks" being used )
I think it is an expectation problem. And may be people should not have overhyped it so much.
> The mac-book killer was very much hyperbole from paid reviewers.
Just because people have a different opinion than you doesn't mean they are hyperbolic paid reviewers. I love the trackpad, although I did have a minor issue out of the box where I had to click kind of hard toward the bottom center to get it to start working. I expect those things will go away as they get better. It's gotta be damn hard to put together such a complex hardware product.
Just because people have a different opinion than you doesn't mean they are hyperbolic paid reviewers. I love the trackpad, although I did have a minor issue out of the box where I had to click kind of hard toward the bottom center to get it to start working. I expect those things will go away as they get better. It's gotta be damn hard to put together such a complex hardware product.
I didn't try the Framework but by looking at it my complaint with the touchpad would be that it has no physical buttons. Hard to middle click to paste with Linux. I only buy laptops with 3 buttons and I disable clicking on the touchpad, so the pointer doesn't move when I click. I've got the buttons after all...
Anyway, this is a 13.5" laptop so space is at a premium. I can't expect to include everything. But if they'll build a 15" laptop with NO NUMBERPAD and buttons on the touchpad, I'll consider buying it. I'll pay extras for those buttons and for the numberpad-less keyboard.
Anyway, this is a 13.5" laptop so space is at a premium. I can't expect to include everything. But if they'll build a 15" laptop with NO NUMBERPAD and buttons on the touchpad, I'll consider buying it. I'll pay extras for those buttons and for the numberpad-less keyboard.
> The mac-book killer was very much hyperbole from paid reviewers.
Hold on. Which reviewers received payments in return for positive coverage of the laptop?
Hold on. Which reviewers received payments in return for positive coverage of the laptop?
Arriving at this thread late, but we have never paid a reviewer and it’s unlikely we ever will. For reviewers like Linus Tech Tips and other YouTubers who do a mix of sponsored and non-sponsored reviews (and provide a clear disclaimer of which ones are which), we’ve only followed the non-sponsored path.
We discussed investment with Linus only after his review, and before making a decision on it, he brought it in front of his community to flag the risks of future conflicts of interest. Since completing the investment, he has also continued to flag that potential conflict in additional videos he has posted.
We discussed investment with Linus only after his review, and before making a decision on it, he brought it in front of his community to flag the risks of future conflicts of interest. Since completing the investment, he has also continued to flag that potential conflict in additional videos he has posted.
None of them, they're being massively hyperbolic and disingenuous because a piece of hardware isn't perfect the first iteration thus the reviewers who think a great device is great must be paid.
None of them did. I think this person is just making that up.
Not that I agree with the characterization, but they might be referring to Linus Sebastian of Linux Tech Tips, who invested a bunch of money into the company:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg
But that's the other way around!
Has the 3.07 BIOS update fixed the overnight drain issue? [1]
[1] https://community.frame.work/t/bios-3-07-windows-10-and-11-a...
[1] https://community.frame.work/t/bios-3-07-windows-10-and-11-a...
Weird, I love the touchpad. So much better than My Dell XPS 9710
Is this an issue for Ubuntu specifically or all distributions? Read somewhere that they recommended Fedora 35 for the best driver support at the moment, though that'll probably change after the next releases of 22.04 and F36.
Awesome that you're switching your whole team to Frameworks - my next work laptop will for sure be a Framework too :)
Awesome that you're switching your whole team to Frameworks - my next work laptop will for sure be a Framework too :)
The main reason for this is that the drivers are in the kernel, and Fedora ships new kernels regularly. Ubuntu and many other distros will stay on the same version they initially ship with. For example if they start with 5.14.2 then even a couple years later it will be 5.14.86-200. Fedora tends to ship new major versions of the kernel within weeks of them being released upstream, so you're constantly getting bug fixes and new drivers. I prefer the ubuntu approach for servers (which is how RHEL/CentOS do it) but for desktop it's great to see it continually get better.
If you build/install the latest kernel (or a newer one) on Ubuntu I would expect a similar experience to Fedora (although Gnome and wayland versions can make a difference on some things.)
If you build/install the latest kernel (or a newer one) on Ubuntu I would expect a similar experience to Fedora (although Gnome and wayland versions can make a difference on some things.)
Linux laptop battery life issues are a constant, right? This has been a problem across laptop brands, across Linux distros, across many, many kernel versions. I just want to temper anyone's false expectations that they can just update from a 1-year-old kernel to one released last week and it'll fix these long-existing issues.
I'm not sure its universal. My laptop loses around 10% battery in sleep with Fedora 35 and I haven't done any configuration changes as such.
I've taken to having a Fedora 35 install on a bootable USB SSD. I don't prefer it for daily use (Ubuntu/Pop for me) but if I'm ever in doubt when debugging a suspected Framework issue I boot into Fedora 35 as that's the semi-official/supported distro and version.
Generally speaking I haven't found it to be any better than my Framework optimized PopOS 20.04 NVMe boot setup:
- Rock solid Intel wifi (mostly thanks to Pop providing kernel 5.15.15)
- Fingerprint reader works (custom fprintd/libfprint debs, kind of hacky but works)
- PipeWire PPA for better bluetooth audio support
- Suspend-then-hibernate for battery drain issues
- Probably some other stuff I'm forgetting ATM
- Quickemu
- Still basically Ubuntu LTS for the occasionally goofy/proprietary stuff I need to run requiring it
Generally speaking I haven't found it to be any better than my Framework optimized PopOS 20.04 NVMe boot setup:
- Rock solid Intel wifi (mostly thanks to Pop providing kernel 5.15.15)
- Fingerprint reader works (custom fprintd/libfprint debs, kind of hacky but works)
- PipeWire PPA for better bluetooth audio support
- Suspend-then-hibernate for battery drain issues
- Probably some other stuff I'm forgetting ATM
- Quickemu
- Still basically Ubuntu LTS for the occasionally goofy/proprietary stuff I need to run requiring it
You'll still have a battery drain issue for Fedora 35 (1-2%/hour while in suspend). Like some other commenters, I went through the extra hassle to set up a swap partition and sleep-then-hibernate. I genuinely enjoy the laptop now that I've resolved the standby battery drain.
Ubuntu 21.04 on Framework won't resume from standby. I have to force-shutdown with a power-button long-press each time. I haven't tried an A/B test, but I read that this behavior is due to the volume being LUKS-encrypted. I don't understand why this would be the case.
Not encrypting the volume isn't an option for me.
Not encrypting the volume isn't an option for me.
> without battery drain issues
Battery drain seems to be a common serious issue among enthusiast linux hardware, e.g. PinePhone, CutiePi and now Framework. Is this a coincidence or is it due to incompatible ACPI on non-standard hardware?
Battery drain seems to be a common serious issue among enthusiast linux hardware, e.g. PinePhone, CutiePi and now Framework. Is this a coincidence or is it due to incompatible ACPI on non-standard hardware?
What is battery drain issue? I have Framework laptop with Linux Mint (Ubuntu inside), and don't see any issues.
If you mean high consumption in "shallow sleep" -- I switched to "deep sleep" in the first day.
If you mean high consumption in "shallow sleep" -- I switched to "deep sleep" in the first day.
I’m using Arch with Wayland and Sway and I notice very little battery drain. I generally shut it down overnight though. Do most people rarely shut down their laptops?
I assume most people use FDE nowadays. Unless you're using a really well modified LUKS setup the encryption keys stay in RAM while the PC is hibernating/sleeping. So I think it's reasonable to assume most people shut their laptop down overnight.
Interesting that the only two new laptops that have tempted me in years (the Framework and the new MBP) both arrived at roughly the same time yet with wildly different design philosophies.
I find it interesting that the mbp garnered so much attention from tech folk. Perf AVG, build eh. Ethos...terrible. yet still. Gets people in the door to buy it. Humans are wack.
> Perf AVG, build eh
What kind of MBP have you looked at?
I agree with the ethos part, but the current M1 devices are pretty unique in the laptop space.
What kind of MBP have you looked at?
I agree with the ethos part, but the current M1 devices are pretty unique in the laptop space.
The performance is fantastic for a Macbook. The past 10 years was like watching Apple trapped in the laptop stone age, slowly realizing that replacing the ACPI tables on a laptop chip wasn't enough to change it's performance profile. With M1, they finally got to do what they wanted, albeit at the expense of x86. For the majority of Mac users that won't matter though, since Apple was never a particularly great steward of the x86 arch in the first place (like when they dropped x86 32-bit support because it was "too slow", or whatever).
Relative to the rest of the laptop space though? I think I'd simply call the M1 "competitive". It's not the first laptop we've seen with a powerful iGPU (AMD's Vega graphics were first to the party in that regard), and it's CPU performance is good but not great (it's effectively a quad-core system no matter how you end up using it). On the higher-end, it's almost a little embarrassing how hard Intel about-faced with Alder Lake and took Apple to the cleaners with a more bloated ISA, decidedly worse silicon and a complete lack of experience designing heterogeneous systems.
So far, the only unique thing I've seen from the M1 is the battery life. I anticipate other manufacturers will catch up on that front as we transition to big.LITTLE and more dense silicon packages, so I'm not really that worried for the rest of the industry. I'm glad Apple has made a laptop that their fans can enjoy, but x86/32-bit support is non-negotiable for my workload, and they have yet to prove themselves with higher-end hardware. Time will tell, but I'm just happy that the performance wars aren't as much of a blowout anymore.
Relative to the rest of the laptop space though? I think I'd simply call the M1 "competitive". It's not the first laptop we've seen with a powerful iGPU (AMD's Vega graphics were first to the party in that regard), and it's CPU performance is good but not great (it's effectively a quad-core system no matter how you end up using it). On the higher-end, it's almost a little embarrassing how hard Intel about-faced with Alder Lake and took Apple to the cleaners with a more bloated ISA, decidedly worse silicon and a complete lack of experience designing heterogeneous systems.
So far, the only unique thing I've seen from the M1 is the battery life. I anticipate other manufacturers will catch up on that front as we transition to big.LITTLE and more dense silicon packages, so I'm not really that worried for the rest of the industry. I'm glad Apple has made a laptop that their fans can enjoy, but x86/32-bit support is non-negotiable for my workload, and they have yet to prove themselves with higher-end hardware. Time will tell, but I'm just happy that the performance wars aren't as much of a blowout anymore.
> how hard Intel about-faced with Alder Lake and took Apple to the cleaners with a more bloated ISA, decidedly worse silicon
I don't understand. About-faced and take to the cleaners? (Not a native speaker)
I don't understand. About-faced and take to the cleaners? (Not a native speaker)
Ah, that's fine.
About-face is a military-derived term that means "to turn around quickly", as if commanded to.
"take to the cleaners" is a phrase usually used in sports that describes one team completely defeating another in one game/instance.
Hope that helps :p
About-face is a military-derived term that means "to turn around quickly", as if commanded to.
"take to the cleaners" is a phrase usually used in sports that describes one team completely defeating another in one game/instance.
Hope that helps :p
What is eh about the build? It’s my first Apple device after a series of high end Windows laptops and I can’t find anything on the build that is not solid in comparison.
The only complaint I have is that sometimes the keys leave an imprint on the screen but that could just be my bag being too tight. I would definitely have this problem with a Thinkpad or high end HP anyway. Speakers are the best I’ve heard and the chasis is stiffer than my car’s. The screen is awesome…. In a thread about a framework laptop I don’t think I can find something that’s “eh”.
Unless you’re talking about it not being upgradable, but that’s not a build defect.
The only complaint I have is that sometimes the keys leave an imprint on the screen but that could just be my bag being too tight. I would definitely have this problem with a Thinkpad or high end HP anyway. Speakers are the best I’ve heard and the chasis is stiffer than my car’s. The screen is awesome…. In a thread about a framework laptop I don’t think I can find something that’s “eh”.
Unless you’re talking about it not being upgradable, but that’s not a build defect.
Your view on what is a good build is different to mine (which it should be!). I as part of my job sometimes fix laptops. Used to do it alot more and see alot more models but less these days. https://www.ifixit.com/News/54122/macbook-pro-2021-teardown There. have a read. Whilst some folks might marvel at that and think its a work of engineering glory.
To me it just looks like the IT equivalent of a john deere tractor. It'll get the job done, bit fancy, but their going to bleed every dollar out of you to do it...and your stuffed if it breaks and you want to fix it. Also after you've been in their loop for a decade....fat luck breaking out of that companies buying cycle easily. Which results in me thinking....eh avg build. avg device. Its definitely nothing special that's just marketing hype.
To me it just looks like the IT equivalent of a john deere tractor. It'll get the job done, bit fancy, but their going to bleed every dollar out of you to do it...and your stuffed if it breaks and you want to fix it. Also after you've been in their loop for a decade....fat luck breaking out of that companies buying cycle easily. Which results in me thinking....eh avg build. avg device. Its definitely nothing special that's just marketing hype.
You may want to review what the meaning of “average” is. Take all the laptops out there, rank their build quality, and find the mean. The fixability is not a build quality issue, it’s a design choice and you know that going into it. Other laptops may appear more fixable but turns out no one makes parts for them because they were meant to be disposable, and on top of that they are a creaky thin and hollow mess with shitty hinges.
I still think that the MacBooks are all above the average of what’s out there.
I still think that the MacBooks are all above the average of what’s out there.
The bottom panel isn't supported well against the internal components and it makes a hollow sound, it feels like plastic even though it is metal. Compared directly to the immediately preceding 16" it feels way less solid (I have both). It's also rather ugly, I look forward to Apple spending more time figuring out how to get those features and capacity into a case that doesn't echo boxy plastic PC laptops from 15 years ago.
I'm glad you say this. The latest Macbook just feels cheap. It feels and looks like one of those fake plastic computers they use for displays at Ikea. A huge difference to previous models which feel solid and high quality.
Not sure if the quality is actually any different. But my first impression was "what the fuck is this?".
Not sure if the quality is actually any different. But my first impression was "what the fuck is this?".
I had to go tapping around to see what you meant and I still don’t understand why it matters so much. The main frame is pretty solid, and that’s where I type. Compared to the AVERAGE of the laptops out there, I still think it’s well above the mean. If one day you find yourself at a Walmart or best buy or whatever equivalent in your country, check some truly average laptops and you’ll find what an average windows laptop feels like in 2022.
[deleted]
Pro. It perfs incredibly well in a bunch of areas it was expected to.
Con. It can't even run code from a whole segment of apps because of archi it's built on.
Result - Perf was nothing out of line with expected results from what you'd expect the market to come up with for the next range of products.
It's really nothing special from the user end of things.
Con. It can't even run code from a whole segment of apps because of archi it's built on.
Result - Perf was nothing out of line with expected results from what you'd expect the market to come up with for the next range of products.
It's really nothing special from the user end of things.
The MacBook Pro 2021 M1? It is totally something special:
1) The hardware is first class. Everything is back where it should be and improved. You can't get hardware like this anywhere else. 2) It is extremely fast. Nothing ever slows down. I can't figure out anything to throw at this thing that will turn on the fan even. 3) It just works. No drama. This is very valuable if your real value is writing code and not doing sys admin.
1) The hardware is first class. Everything is back where it should be and improved. You can't get hardware like this anywhere else. 2) It is extremely fast. Nothing ever slows down. I can't figure out anything to throw at this thing that will turn on the fan even. 3) It just works. No drama. This is very valuable if your real value is writing code and not doing sys admin.
I'm currently using Linux (Ubuntu 21.10 on a 2015 Core i3), Windows (on a 10th gen core i7 laptop with lots of RAM but an iGPU), and macOS on an M1 Mac Mini, macOS definitely feels the slowest.
I suspect if my Windows laptop was closer to the other devices it would be slower, but Linux just feels so much faster than macOS in actual tasks. The interactions are so much "snappier", whereas with macOS most interactions feel like a chore (I think it's the animations).
I suspect if my Windows laptop was closer to the other devices it would be slower, but Linux just feels so much faster than macOS in actual tasks. The interactions are so much "snappier", whereas with macOS most interactions feel like a chore (I think it's the animations).
You can turn some animations off, system pref > accessibility > display > reduce motion, and dock & menu bar, uncheck “animate opening applications” + “Minimize windows using” scale effect seems a touch faster than minimize with genie effect.
But agreed, the interface is not as snappy as windows and Linux.
But agreed, the interface is not as snappy as windows and Linux.
Seriously. No other laptop on the market can do all of:
- have an insanely long battery life
- stay completely silent
- have excellent performance
The other laptops which can theoretically beat the MBP at some tasks utterly fail at being silent or having long battery life under load.
And the other silent laptops (chromebook maybe) can’t manage heavy workloads.
So it is very unique in the laptop space.
- have an insanely long battery life
- stay completely silent
- have excellent performance
The other laptops which can theoretically beat the MBP at some tasks utterly fail at being silent or having long battery life under load.
And the other silent laptops (chromebook maybe) can’t manage heavy workloads.
So it is very unique in the laptop space.
I use an M1 Macbook for work and I also have a Framework for personal use and... yeah.
I adore the Framework but I really wish there was a REAL non-Apple competitor in the laptop space. The M1 is just _so_ quiet and fast, I really have to try hard to get the fan to spin up. Can't really speak for battery life since it never leaves my desk where it's plugged in haha.
It's a shame I despise macOS so much or else I'd use this work laptop for personal stuff more often.
I adore the Framework but I really wish there was a REAL non-Apple competitor in the laptop space. The M1 is just _so_ quiet and fast, I really have to try hard to get the fan to spin up. Can't really speak for battery life since it never leaves my desk where it's plugged in haha.
It's a shame I despise macOS so much or else I'd use this work laptop for personal stuff more often.
I did an idle battery life test. 1% per hour. Turned on, with the screen off, and an active SSH session.
That's better than many x86 laptops in full-on sleep mode. With the OS running.
People underestimate just how good modern power management can get when the vendor cares.
That's better than many x86 laptops in full-on sleep mode. With the OS running.
People underestimate just how good modern power management can get when the vendor cares.
While I think the Apple Silicon macs are generally high end, the most fantastic thing to me is the battery life.
Perf Avg? I thought the M1 was absurdly fast, no?
I have a macbook and am happy with it, so not a hater, but...
A lot of outlets have pointed out that the M1 chip came out in this kind of interim period between Intel and AMD releases, so performance comparisons were a little misleading.
If you compare M1 chips to more recent AMD chips (I'm less clear about Intel), they're more similar. There's differences in power use and singlecore versus multicore attributes but overall they're much more similar than you'd conclude based on when M1 first came out. M1 is still very nice and efficient, but not absurdly better, or maybe even better at all.
There's a lot of issues with memory use (leaks, excessive use) on M1 laptops. There was just a post about this here on HN. The issue is sometimes raised without awareness of it as a general trend, but it keeps coming up over and over. So far I haven't seen any explanation for why it happens or how to avoid it, but it's real. Just Google "macbook memory leaks" and you'll see plenty of discussion. As far as I know, there's been some red herring solutions but no actual resolution.
A lot of outlets have pointed out that the M1 chip came out in this kind of interim period between Intel and AMD releases, so performance comparisons were a little misleading.
If you compare M1 chips to more recent AMD chips (I'm less clear about Intel), they're more similar. There's differences in power use and singlecore versus multicore attributes but overall they're much more similar than you'd conclude based on when M1 first came out. M1 is still very nice and efficient, but not absurdly better, or maybe even better at all.
There's a lot of issues with memory use (leaks, excessive use) on M1 laptops. There was just a post about this here on HN. The issue is sometimes raised without awareness of it as a general trend, but it keeps coming up over and over. So far I haven't seen any explanation for why it happens or how to avoid it, but it's real. Just Google "macbook memory leaks" and you'll see plenty of discussion. As far as I know, there's been some red herring solutions but no actual resolution.
Opening my Emacs config on a top i9 mbp takes an average of 3–4 seconds. On an M1: <1s.
Not to stir the eternal debate, but if my Vim config takes > 100ms, I start debugging what's going on/figuring out the responsible plugin.
3-4seconds would drive me insane :O
3-4seconds would drive me insane :O
A few seconds isn’t bad to boot an OS, no? ;-)
It's not really an issue for many, perhaps even most, emacs users. I have a my emacs set to launch when my window manager starts on login, after which it stays open until I log off or shut the computer down. Emacs and Vim have such different workflows that this type of comparison isn't all that meaningful.
Nah, that's fair. I've got about runs ls -l | wc -l 143 packages that I load. My Emacs config is pretty heavy. I keep trying to trim it down a bit. Though, sometimes I have edit sessions that last several weeks, so it's not that bit a deal. But still.
Two things. Emacs as a daemon! And. Emacs 28 native compilation. Absolute game changer for speed in a million ways. Scrolling a 5000 line python source file with all the packages, syntax highlighting, etc etc, is buttery smooth:
https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GccEmacs
https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/GccEmacs
Yeah… I should probably set up the daemon sometime. I just tweak my config so much (it's Emacs, c'mon) that it's just been simpler for me for some reason to just launch it fresh for forever.
native-comp doesn't do anything for start up. Good tip though—I've been running bleeding-edge Emacs for a while now. ;-)
I ran `esup` and figured out most of the slowdown is from the otherwise excellent straight.el [1] package manager. I put
[1]: https://github.com/raxod502/straight.el#my-init-time-got-slo...
native-comp doesn't do anything for start up. Good tip though—I've been running bleeding-edge Emacs for a while now. ;-)
I ran `esup` and figured out most of the slowdown is from the otherwise excellent straight.el [1] package manager. I put
(setq straight-check-for-modifications '(check-on-save find-when-checking))
[1]: https://github.com/raxod502/straight.el#my-init-time-got-slo...
Native comp doesn't do anything for for startup implicitly, absolutely. There are no startup optimizations or anything like that. However, the speed with which elisp runs on native comp seems to be between 1.5 and 10 times faster. I run emacs on a lot of underpowered arm devices (think rpi zero) and use my full config. And the decrease in startup time on those machines was astonishing.
[deleted]
Yeah, it’s wack how people want to buy the laptop with the best perf per watt ever.
How do you research the ethos of products you buy? All of them or just selected ones?
Same! I bought both and love them for very different reasons.
One of the members of my team ordered a Framework Laptop, the Professional edition, about 4 months ago to replace his old Lenovo. In the first week, he had battery drain issues. Even when he put it to sleep, it would drain the battery. He had to keep it plugged in at all times. He tried few distros (including the older version of Ubuntu they recommend) and the problems persisted. His screen also had issues and colors would slightly shift. I lent him my colorimeter and he said the monitor would lose calibration after several days. He also complained about trackpad not tracking his finger properly. In the end, he returned it. I think he said you have 30 days to return it.
Hope they fix these issues.
Hope they fix these issues.
I am really excited about this laptop but I'm reading reviews like this a lot more now that they are delivering.
Their community forum has a lot of users asking for solutions for the problems you mentioned and even Linux compatibility issues.
I really hope they fix these issues too. A friend made a joke, which I find hilarious: "you can always replace all the parts that are failing, isn't that the point?".
Their community forum has a lot of users asking for solutions for the problems you mentioned and even Linux compatibility issues.
I really hope they fix these issues too. A friend made a joke, which I find hilarious: "you can always replace all the parts that are failing, isn't that the point?".
I was an early user and I've run into a couple of problems on mine, but Framework does a good job getting information out there and fixing things. Much better experience than I've had with other vendors where once it ships that's it.
That's what I'm seeing too, and I want to trust them. Can't wait for them to ship to my country, will order one for sure.
It's not about trust. They can have all good intentions in the world, but still fail. Because as Elon says: "The extreme difficulty of scaling production of new technology is not well understood. It’s 1000% to 10,000% harder than making a few prototypes. The machine that makes the machine is vastly harder than the machine itself."
Yes, for example, compare a Fab with a laptop
(Fab = Semiconductor fabrication plant, in case anyone didn't know)
(Fab = Semiconductor fabrication plant, in case anyone didn't know)
That’s because if they didn’t fix these issues, they’d not have the chance to ship another product.
Incentives are aligned! that's great!
The battery drain issue though is not unique to Framework laptop. I have a Thinkpad T14s 4750U pro laptop and it drains battery too.Look at number of threads on Lenovo forums about battery drain issues.
I suspect as a whole intel moved to these new fangled s0ix sleep states, which are not well supported in Linux and s3 state does not work well enough in these new Laptops.
I suspect as a whole intel moved to these new fangled s0ix sleep states, which are not well supported in Linux and s3 state does not work well enough in these new Laptops.
I've had the battery drain issues too, and it sucks bad. That said I remember seeing a fix a little while ago and I haven't had any issues recently. I run Fedora 35 though so my kernel stays pretty new. On Ubuntu you're gonna be stuck on an older kernel unless you install the newer one.
Any plans for 15" anytime soon?
I just hope my current laptop can hold out till whenever that is, else it'll have to be the 16" MBP with $400 for 32GB RAM upgrade :(
I just hope my current laptop can hold out till whenever that is, else it'll have to be the 16" MBP with $400 for 32GB RAM upgrade :(
I'm really hopeful a 15" is not too distant (but seems like it might be). I have an aging Dell XPS 9550, but there's not been much I've wanted to jump at. I looked briefly at the System76 Kudu - are there any go-to 15" Linux-friendly workstations?
It seems a lot of developer-type folks have moved to cloud focused work, at least in my bubble the raw computing power seems to be less and less valued.
It seems a lot of developer-type folks have moved to cloud focused work, at least in my bubble the raw computing power seems to be less and less valued.
I just got a Dell Precision 5560. I’m running FreeBSD on it, but based on hardware Linux should run well.
It’s pretty powerful so far (comparable to my 2019 i9 mbp roughly but I haven’t measured).
I’m not sure what battery life will be like. I haven’t finished tuning my installation so I can’t really measure reliably. Overall the hardware is really solid though.
It’s pretty powerful so far (comparable to my 2019 i9 mbp roughly but I haven’t measured).
I’m not sure what battery life will be like. I haven’t finished tuning my installation so I can’t really measure reliably. Overall the hardware is really solid though.
Update: battery life was not great :’) I might stick with my MacBook Pro for a while longer.
Waiting for a 'Framework Surface'.
Modularity could be a big advantage for smaller companies - getting a decent system (cpu/ram etc), and a great screen in one package is enough of a challenge.
Add in touchpad, keyboard, hinges, etc, and it's no wonder only the premium large manufacturers seem able to pull off an all-round great machine.
Plus the tablet form-factor is just more versatile than a clamshell laptop.
Modularity could be a big advantage for smaller companies - getting a decent system (cpu/ram etc), and a great screen in one package is enough of a challenge.
Add in touchpad, keyboard, hinges, etc, and it's no wonder only the premium large manufacturers seem able to pull off an all-round great machine.
Plus the tablet form-factor is just more versatile than a clamshell laptop.
Will order one the day there is an AMD option.
This is the problem with trying to please power users. There is no monolithic bloc of them. They all want different things.
AMD vs Intel? Touchscreens? Strong opinions about screen aspect ratio and resolution, keyboard layout, touchpads, wifi chipset brand, GPU brand, etc.? All there.
I wish the company luck, but they are targeting the most picky consumer market there is.
AMD vs Intel? Touchscreens? Strong opinions about screen aspect ratio and resolution, keyboard layout, touchpads, wifi chipset brand, GPU brand, etc.? All there.
I wish the company luck, but they are targeting the most picky consumer market there is.
Isn't this supposed to be a strength of framework? Their machines are pretty modular. Users should get to pick and choose AMD vs Intel, keyboard layouts, wifi chipsets without framework having to design different machines for each configuration.
Keyboards and wifi are one thing (both already modular) but the CPU is integrated into the mainboard and an AMD-based board would presumably need different AMD chipsets and so on beyond simply the CPU itself. That's "modular" in the sense that the chassis is designed for swappable mainboards, but it's much more involved to support.
I remember socketed CPUs being a thing on some ThinkPad models.
I don't remember any laptop ever that could support both AMD and Intel CPUs. The chipsets are different.
Mid-90s had both laptops with CPU sockets, and pin-compatible drop-in AMD and Cyrix 486 and Pentium-equivalent chips.
More or less, yes. The different keyboard layouts is not that difficult to do. A different wifi chipset is trivial; customers can source their own from wherever they want. CPUs are a bit different, as Intel and AMD will require completely different mainboard designs. It's doable, certainly, but requires quite a bit of engineering effort, especially if you want to be able to place components and connectors (etc.) in the same places on the different boards, which is necessary for something like the Framework laptop, where they'd want to be able to allow you to put either mainboard in the same chassis.
Speaking of chassis, that makes offering different screen aspect ratios really hard, as you'll usually have a different sized/shaped chassis for a different aspect ratio. That might mean a different mainboard layout, different keyboard, different touchpad, and different battery, at least. That would vastly complicate Framework's offering, something I'm sure they're in no position to do as such a young company.
Speaking of chassis, that makes offering different screen aspect ratios really hard, as you'll usually have a different sized/shaped chassis for a different aspect ratio. That might mean a different mainboard layout, different keyboard, different touchpad, and different battery, at least. That would vastly complicate Framework's offering, something I'm sure they're in no position to do as such a young company.
You can have your choice of 3 Intel CPUs, and you can bring your own NVME SSD, RAM, and wifi card. Of course the motherboard chipset determines which of those will work.
You can't change the CPU brand. Moving from Intel to AMD (or from the current Intel CPUs to a newer generation of Intel CPUs) would require an entirely different motherboard.
You can't change the CPU brand. Moving from Intel to AMD (or from the current Intel CPUs to a newer generation of Intel CPUs) would require an entirely different motherboard.
This ends up with a laptop where nothing really works well because everyone has a completely different setup and issues come up with particular configs. The reason the macbook works so well right now is every single part was very carefully supported and designed to work together.
I used to be all in on the FOSS hardware train but at some point you just want to get some work done rather than debugging wifi drivers.
I used to be all in on the FOSS hardware train but at some point you just want to get some work done rather than debugging wifi drivers.
You can only get so modular until you run into the fact that a hybrid Intel/AMD/etc motherboard chipset does not exist. Creating one would cost more money than they have raised.
Everyone says that, but realistically, at the size of their company, I can't imagine they have the resources to design, test and support both Intel and AMD designs in parallel at the present.
HW development is insanely capital intensive and they're far away from the resources of the likes of Asus and MSI, let alone Lenovo or Dell.
HW development is insanely capital intensive and they're far away from the resources of the likes of Asus and MSI, let alone Lenovo or Dell.
And then the posts will be "I'll order it once they build a custom ARM soc" :).
By the time they work that out, RISC-V will be the new trend.
I'll be among the first to buy a RISC-V based framework :-D
They recently recieved a fair chunk of funding so are on the growth path. I hope they do release a 15inch AMD based device.
AMD doesnt bribe^^^award Meet Competition Payments in form of free shit like SSDs for the design wins.
Can someone who owns a framework tell me wether the lapthp provides methods for neutering the Intel backdoors(AKA IME)?
No. The IME could be disabled via hardware like Purism have done with their Librem series, but it seems like Framework hasn't made the effort to do so. They also still use a proprietary firmware on their ECs. In the future they plan to support Coreboot but if you ask me it is far down their bucket list.
Those complaining about Linux power drain: are you using deep, or s2idle? I find deep to be pretty close to windows with power drain on my framework.
I'm still hoping Linus Sebastian's influence can get them to have wide-gamut OLED panel option.
Great laptop.
My only wish they would hire professional support.
It is none existing atm. And if you get their attention, expect to get FAQ article responce which you already read 10 times. Otherwise your best bet forums.
With 12th gen Intel and Ryzen 6000 knocking on the door, it does not feel right to be pre ordering 11th gen 4c/8t Intel laptops. If I were in the market for a new laptop I would get one of the new 16:10 ThinkPads.
I have an X1 Carbon Gen 9 with Ubuntu as my daily driver. Everything just works. Sleep, fingerprint etc.
The one thing the ended up keeping me from the Framework laptops was the lack of Home, End, Insert, Delete buttons. Having had a number of Thinkpad machines I have gotten used to using them all the time.
I also quite enjoy that I can put my hands on the keyboard and almost not move them at all while using the little knob for mouse-activities when keyboard shortcuts run out.
The one thing the ended up keeping me from the Framework laptops was the lack of Home, End, Insert, Delete buttons. Having had a number of Thinkpad machines I have gotten used to using them all the time.
I also quite enjoy that I can put my hands on the keyboard and almost not move them at all while using the little knob for mouse-activities when keyboard shortcuts run out.
Yeah, I'm feeling the same. I was considering ordering one last fall, when I think it would have been reasonable to get an 11th-gen, but I couldn't justify a new laptop purchase then. Now I'd probably wait for a 12th-gen mainboard before ordering.
I'm also still not sure how I feel about the 3:2 screen. I've gotten so used to 16:9 & 16:10 that I think it'd be hard to go back to something similar to a 4:3 screen again.
I'm also still not sure how I feel about the 3:2 screen. I've gotten so used to 16:9 & 16:10 that I think it'd be hard to go back to something similar to a 4:3 screen again.
I'm really hoping to see an AMD option for better power efficiency.
I hate this trend of apple style trackpads that take up most of the real estate and keep registering false positives when you type. I have to use a macbook for work and most of the time I can use it just fine in clamshell mode connected to external keyboard/peripherals but ocassionally when I am not at my desk and have to interact directly with the laptop it's an absolutely atrocious experience due to that damn trackpad.
To you maybe. I hate small trackpads. I move the arrow more than I type and palm detection works well for me, so who’s right?
Well you'd hope the Framework would mean neither of us have to be.
This is what I've ultimately found to put me off the project - what I can customise I mostly don't need to, and the things I'd really like choice on: keyboard style, trackpad, etc. I can't.
This is what I've ultimately found to put me off the project - what I can customise I mostly don't need to, and the things I'd really like choice on: keyboard style, trackpad, etc. I can't.
I'm looking forward to buying one of these as soon as there's good Linux support.
I've had my Framework laptop for a few months now and NixOS (GNOME desktop) has been working excellently.
Same, although I use Nixos with Pantheon WM.
Since it boots to desktop in 10-15 seconds I don’t have to deal with the overnight power issues everyone complains about. And since it doesn’t run a hundred automatic background processes it’s much quicker to start working than my MBP was.
Printing on the other hand…
Since it boots to desktop in 10-15 seconds I don’t have to deal with the overnight power issues everyone complains about. And since it doesn’t run a hundred automatic background processes it’s much quicker to start working than my MBP was.
Printing on the other hand…
I haven't done so yet, but I've been meaning to set up deep sleep so the machine effectively shuts down and stops drawing as much power.
> Printing on the other hand...
Oh dear. I haven't had to print with it yet, I hope it isn't too bad. My last experiences with Linux printing went well, but then again that was back when I was using Ubuntu.
> Printing on the other hand...
Oh dear. I haven't had to print with it yet, I hope it isn't too bad. My last experiences with Linux printing went well, but then again that was back when I was using Ubuntu.
They've supported Linux from the beginning: https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop
I don't have one (yet?), so I can't speak to how well they actually achieved this goal, though.
I don't have one (yet?), so I can't speak to how well they actually achieved this goal, though.
I would be really tempted, but there are still a couple things putting me off:
* Intel only * Windows only
... sorry boy and mum are arguing over homework -- gotta run!
* Intel only * Windows only
... sorry boy and mum are arguing over homework -- gotta run!
At first this comment made me angry (it's Linux, the whole point is user choice, what would be the benefit in preinstalling!) - but I suppose System76 have really showed how much better things can be with Pop!_OS.
I would expect the vast majority of users will be using Linux though, so calling it Windows only seems a little misleading. There is an option to get no OS and avoid the Windows tax.
I would expect the vast majority of users will be using Linux though, so calling it Windows only seems a little misleading. There is an option to get no OS and avoid the Windows tax.
I'd rather pay to add Linux support rather than skip the windows tax.
Intel only at the moment is correct but Windows only? TFA says "no OS" as an option, so you're free to install what you like.
It's possible to install Linux, but it requires a bunch of fiddling. And even then power management tends to not work great.
I'd love if Linux has as officially supported and just worked.
I'd love if Linux has as officially supported and just worked.
I bought a DIY Framework and installed Pop_OS, everything was working well after 5 minutes of "fiddling".
So if that's a reason for you to not buy a computer, I'd suggest that Linux may not be for you.
So if that's a reason for you to not buy a computer, I'd suggest that Linux may not be for you.
A pre-install option for linux would increase user trust that it'll "just work"
As someone with a Dell XPS 9310 for work where Linux is a pre-install option, I can tell you it definitely doesn't mean it "just works".
The Framework I got for personal use, on the other hand, worked OOTB with a Linux USB installer.
The Framework I got for personal use, on the other hand, worked OOTB with a Linux USB installer.
I have an XPS 13 (forget the model number but I think it had an 8th-generation Intel CPU) that came with Linux and it definitely wasn't "just works" when I bought it (sleep/wake was kind-of broken and such) but a month or so later, it did magically start working (and nothing else was really broken).
The 9310 is an 11th generation Intel CPU, that I've had for over a year now. While it certainly was even more broken when I first got it, after the first quarter improvements seem to have stopped happening. Things like WiFi, Bluetooth, sleep, power management, and video output are still fairly flaky.
People elsewhere in this thread complain about the battery in sleep for the Framework, and I confirm the same with mine, but losing a few percent a night is nothing compare to the Dell, which goes from 100 to 0 overnight.
People elsewhere in this thread complain about the battery in sleep for the Framework, and I confirm the same with mine, but losing a few percent a night is nothing compare to the Dell, which goes from 100 to 0 overnight.
People have been waiting for a Linux that "just works" for decades. And they'll probably still be waiting for the next 20 years. But that's not really the point of using Linux.
"But that's not really the point of using Linux."
That philosophy is probably part of the reason, why linux on the desktop stays in its small niche inside tech circles.
Most people, myself included, indeed want a system that "just works" - to get the actual work done. And then if the basics work, I can enjoy the full freedom to tweak it to my needs in infinity.
But only very few people enjoy "freedom to tinker", when it means "mandatory tinkering" to get basic functionality.
My best linux times were indeed, when stuff just worked. I was really surprised the first time I used a live Linux cd and everything "just worked". No manual driver installing, like I had known from windows. It booted up and everything was just there.
It was different, but it worked. And then I discovered the endless possibilities and freedom to change ANYTHING.
But fast forward to today: my quite modern laptop still has standby/resume issues on linux, making it hard to enjoy it at times. And I don't feel like compiling the kernel myself to maybe see a slight improvement.
That philosophy is probably part of the reason, why linux on the desktop stays in its small niche inside tech circles.
Most people, myself included, indeed want a system that "just works" - to get the actual work done. And then if the basics work, I can enjoy the full freedom to tweak it to my needs in infinity.
But only very few people enjoy "freedom to tinker", when it means "mandatory tinkering" to get basic functionality.
My best linux times were indeed, when stuff just worked. I was really surprised the first time I used a live Linux cd and everything "just worked". No manual driver installing, like I had known from windows. It booted up and everything was just there.
It was different, but it worked. And then I discovered the endless possibilities and freedom to change ANYTHING.
But fast forward to today: my quite modern laptop still has standby/resume issues on linux, making it hard to enjoy it at times. And I don't feel like compiling the kernel myself to maybe see a slight improvement.
I'm pretty competent/qualified to tinker with my Linux, but I still much prefer a "just works" approach too. I think most in the community do. I don't want a "Just works because everything is hyper-locked down" but that's a much different thing IMHO.
Fortunately most distros have gotten to where we are. Fedora works amazingly well OOTB on so much hardware, and I've heard great things about Pop and other popular distros.
Fortunately most distros have gotten to where we are. Fedora works amazingly well OOTB on so much hardware, and I've heard great things about Pop and other popular distros.
I can confirm that Pop works on a Framework without about 10 minutes of adjusting a few settings. Which is not that different than any other OS imo.
They have it now. The trick is to stop buying Windows hardware. Looks like this is just more of that rather than Linux (or just not broken) hardware.
I have DIY Framework that came without an operating system. Installed Pop_OS on it from a flash drive and in 10 minutes all the necessary tweaks were made.
So if 10 minutes of installing an OS and tweaking a few settings stops someone from spending years with a computer, I'm a bit confused by their attitude.
So if 10 minutes of installing an OS and tweaking a few settings stops someone from spending years with a computer, I'm a bit confused by their attitude.
Indeed. Happily using Void Linux on mine. Took some doing (kernel downgrade being the most annoying), but it works great now.
There's a Linux configuration
https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop
https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop
Sure, but when you look at the ordering page, it doesn't mention linux as an OS option, just Windows or no OS
Do you think a significant amount of people who want to run Linux will want it preinstalled for them?
I personally do. A "just works" configuration will be ideal for me. Anytime I install linux on a new computer, I find myself spending too much time tinkering with configuration settings to make basic things like adjusting keyboard brightness and volume control work with the respective keys.
You don't have to do any of that with a Framework and Ubunut/Pop. The only real thing to adjust was getting the fingerprint sensor working, which really was copy/pasting a script. Everything else worked perfectly out of the box.
That's good to hear!
However there also seems to be a problem with battery drain when the laptop is sleeping which kinda defeats the purpose of a laptop for me.
It would be great if that was supported out of the box as well.
However there also seems to be a problem with battery drain when the laptop is sleeping which kinda defeats the purpose of a laptop for me.
It would be great if that was supported out of the box as well.
You can fix the battery drain issue by changing one line in a config file. The issue is from how Intel chips handle hibernation w/ Linux, so not a Framework specific issue though.
I don't, and I suspect that people who would want Linux preinstalled don't have much experience in it, and being lost would hate it, badmouth it, and badmouth the company for making it an option. Installing Linux is quick and of trivial difficulty, and if you're afraid to do it you should probably work on that fear at a different time than when you're also breaking in a new computer.
I would say that installing Linux is like being able to tune your guitar or a chef being able to sharpen their knives, but it's an order of magnitude easier than either of those things.
Agree with sibling that maintaining preinstalled Linux is a good sign that all the guts and peripherals are compatible, although that might be a perverse incentive to use a bleeding edge kernel/distro to accommodate flashy hardware. If anything, they should install a boring LTS/Debian Stable, completely stock other than a custom wallpaper.
I would say that installing Linux is like being able to tune your guitar or a chef being able to sharpen their knives, but it's an order of magnitude easier than either of those things.
Agree with sibling that maintaining preinstalled Linux is a good sign that all the guts and peripherals are compatible, although that might be a perverse incentive to use a bleeding edge kernel/distro to accommodate flashy hardware. If anything, they should install a boring LTS/Debian Stable, completely stock other than a custom wallpaper.
I want to know that the hardware will work with linux, and will continue to work with linux.
A pre-install option is just one way to advertise and convince the user that you've tested the hardware to work on linux
It would at least offer the option to a curious consumer who wouldn't otherwise feel comfortable installing it themselves.
Yes. The linux market is extremely diverse. The sheer amount of distros and DEs is pretty good evidence of this. It doesn't even have to be different people.
For personal laptops/desktop I don't care if it's preinstalled for me or not since the very first boot is going straight into my usb installer since it's extremely unlikely that they checked all the boxes I will check (especially getting my LUKS passphrase correct!!). But for my wife or parent's laptop that's exactly what I want. If dad runs linux I can help him out a ton more, even SSHing into his machine to set things up or install updates, etc, but I'd prefer he be able to turn the thing on and connect it to his wifi and start using it without me having to be there.
For personal laptops/desktop I don't care if it's preinstalled for me or not since the very first boot is going straight into my usb installer since it's extremely unlikely that they checked all the boxes I will check (especially getting my LUKS passphrase correct!!). But for my wife or parent's laptop that's exactly what I want. If dad runs linux I can help him out a ton more, even SSHing into his machine to set things up or install updates, etc, but I'd prefer he be able to turn the thing on and connect it to his wifi and start using it without me having to be there.
I agree they should offer a Linux option from factory, but you have a fair point.
OK, but devil’s advocate, if they explicitly mention Linux, that means they have to explicitly support Linux for newcomers and experts alike, which for a small company, is probably not an insignificant lift, from a customer service perspective alone. They are really clear about how things are in the DIY and Linux sections of their forum and on Reddit/Discord, there are tons of people helping out (including employees), but that’s a little different than being a mainstream laptop company (and not niche like System 76 or Tuxedo or whatever) that is also prepared, within 6 months of shipping their first product, to offer robust Linux support.
I think this is doubly true when you consider the elevated support task they have by the nature of how upgradable/repairable the laptop is. The number of issues I’ve seen from people (and I’m just an owner who lurks a bit in some of the communities) who didn’t know how to properly insert RAM or have had other more basic problems (which is separate from the more widespread issue of installing the wifi cards, where the antenna cables were legit the most difficult I’ve ever dealt with and I have years of experience — Framework sent me a replacement cable and card and that was great), makes me sympathetic to them trying to grow their support teams at an even pace and not inviting a bunch of support queries that can tie-up even the more established Linux hardware vendors.
So yes, I agree, better Linux support would be great. The good news is that it’s already becoming an enthusiast computer so Linux support, especially on newer kernels, is already better than on many other enthusiast laptops (the suspend issues and some recent kernel regressions for wifi are obviously issues but they aren’t isolated to just the Framework), so hopefully that will help. But a hardware startup can only focus on so many things and if being explicitly Linux-first isn’t one of those things (and due to market size, I think that probably makes sense when you have mainstream aspirations), it probably isn’t a good idea to over-promise in that respect — especially when the DIY options and unofficial support is really strong/encouraged.
I think this is doubly true when you consider the elevated support task they have by the nature of how upgradable/repairable the laptop is. The number of issues I’ve seen from people (and I’m just an owner who lurks a bit in some of the communities) who didn’t know how to properly insert RAM or have had other more basic problems (which is separate from the more widespread issue of installing the wifi cards, where the antenna cables were legit the most difficult I’ve ever dealt with and I have years of experience — Framework sent me a replacement cable and card and that was great), makes me sympathetic to them trying to grow their support teams at an even pace and not inviting a bunch of support queries that can tie-up even the more established Linux hardware vendors.
So yes, I agree, better Linux support would be great. The good news is that it’s already becoming an enthusiast computer so Linux support, especially on newer kernels, is already better than on many other enthusiast laptops (the suspend issues and some recent kernel regressions for wifi are obviously issues but they aren’t isolated to just the Framework), so hopefully that will help. But a hardware startup can only focus on so many things and if being explicitly Linux-first isn’t one of those things (and due to market size, I think that probably makes sense when you have mainstream aspirations), it probably isn’t a good idea to over-promise in that respect — especially when the DIY options and unofficial support is really strong/encouraged.
It takes 10 minutes to install Linux from a boot drive and have everything setup as you need. Bizarre to me that those 10 minutes would determine whether or not you spend the next x years with a computer.
I’m with you in the “Intel Only” but not the “Windows only”. Windows is the only one you have to pay for, so it’s the only one with an option. If you don’t want Windows, then choose the “bring your own” option and download your Linux distribution.
Heh. I saw the Ireland flag and immediately thought maybe just they forgot to put a wheel in the middle and just tilted it a bit wrong and looks they selling in my country as well now :)
I think I will just have to get a Dell or HP or Lenovo by now (if not another Mac). By the time they will decide to sell on this side of the planet they will either go defunct (just a sad prediction) or customised laptops won't be a limited fad-like anymore.
I think I will just have to get a Dell or HP or Lenovo by now (if not another Mac). By the time they will decide to sell on this side of the planet they will either go defunct (just a sad prediction) or customised laptops won't be a limited fad-like anymore.
Is it Open Hardware? Where are the schematics?
If not, is it really that different than a thinkpad?
If not, is it really that different than a thinkpad?
I recall a recent HN post about reverse engineering a thinkpad EC in order to get around battery DRM.
With framework that would be doubly unnecessary because the EC firmware is open source. Also they open source stuff having to do with their add on modules.
Plus, I'd wager a guess that Intel/AMD make you sign an NDA that would probably rule an open mainboard (I don't know this for sure). What may need to happen to get high end open hardware is for a company with the right ethos to become big enough to have negotiating power or to design their own SOC.
Framework is trying to strike a balance between producing laptops competitive with mass market offerings and providing users control. If you want freedom over all else you should probably buy a Librem or MNT reform.
With framework that would be doubly unnecessary because the EC firmware is open source. Also they open source stuff having to do with their add on modules.
Plus, I'd wager a guess that Intel/AMD make you sign an NDA that would probably rule an open mainboard (I don't know this for sure). What may need to happen to get high end open hardware is for a company with the right ethos to become big enough to have negotiating power or to design their own SOC.
Framework is trying to strike a balance between producing laptops competitive with mass market offerings and providing users control. If you want freedom over all else you should probably buy a Librem or MNT reform.
> strike a balance
Calling it "balance" is a big stretch when all the important hardware is closed and there are no independent 3rd parties selling replacement parts.
Calling it "balance" is a big stretch when all the important hardware is closed and there are no independent 3rd parties selling replacement parts.
Waiting for you guys to start shipping in India
Good one, but IMO a bit too expensive for the specs.
I recently got a new laptop with Ryzen 5 5600U, 32GB RAM, and 2TB SSD. The laptop is HP ProBook 445 G8. RAM and SSD were sold separately, the upgrade only took 10 minutes and 6 screws. I paid less than €1000 including the upgrades.
The laptop is comparable to the Framework professional they offer for €2280. AMD CPU is better, 15442 versus 11036 points of cpubenchmark.net (that’s 6 cores versus 4). Surprisingly, Intel GPU is better, 2 versus 1.6 TFlops FP32. RAM amount is the same, AMD has twice the SSD storage.
The only large downside is the display, my laptop has 16x9 1080p 14” IPS, the Framework has more pixels and 3x2 aspect ratio.
I recently got a new laptop with Ryzen 5 5600U, 32GB RAM, and 2TB SSD. The laptop is HP ProBook 445 G8. RAM and SSD were sold separately, the upgrade only took 10 minutes and 6 screws. I paid less than €1000 including the upgrades.
The laptop is comparable to the Framework professional they offer for €2280. AMD CPU is better, 15442 versus 11036 points of cpubenchmark.net (that’s 6 cores versus 4). Surprisingly, Intel GPU is better, 2 versus 1.6 TFlops FP32. RAM amount is the same, AMD has twice the SSD storage.
The only large downside is the display, my laptop has 16x9 1080p 14” IPS, the Framework has more pixels and 3x2 aspect ratio.
That's what economy of scale does for you.
Also, this is what integration, that is, limiting the customization options, does for you.
Having a niche and highly customizable thing costs you extra.
Also, this is what integration, that is, limiting the customization options, does for you.
Having a niche and highly customizable thing costs you extra.
> Having a niche and highly customizable thing costs you extra.
Niche sure, but I'm not sure I agree it's highly customizable. Not all laptops are designed like macbooks with just a couple ports and soldered everything. There're still good models made in large volumes. They are often made for corporate sector, but who cares about their marketing as long as the hardware's good.
I have already replaced RAM and SSD in my laptop as soon as it was delivered. WiFi is user upgradeable as well, but I don't have a reason to replace that part. It does not need port expansion cards because all these ports are already built-in.
Also, for people in US or other countries where their online configurator works, that model is even more customizable than the Framework laptop: supports a choice of 5 CPU models, a few different display panels (albeit I have to admit none of them is as good as the one in the Framework), optional infrared webcam, couple options for keyboard.
Niche sure, but I'm not sure I agree it's highly customizable. Not all laptops are designed like macbooks with just a couple ports and soldered everything. There're still good models made in large volumes. They are often made for corporate sector, but who cares about their marketing as long as the hardware's good.
I have already replaced RAM and SSD in my laptop as soon as it was delivered. WiFi is user upgradeable as well, but I don't have a reason to replace that part. It does not need port expansion cards because all these ports are already built-in.
Also, for people in US or other countries where their online configurator works, that model is even more customizable than the Framework laptop: supports a choice of 5 CPU models, a few different display panels (albeit I have to admit none of them is as good as the one in the Framework), optional infrared webcam, couple options for keyboard.
You wanna bring it to more of the world? Try adding crypto as payment method. I know you have a political stand against using crypto (the "crypto is bad for environment" FUD spread by traditional financial players), I hope you'll get your heads out of you know where and do this to actually bring framework to the unbanked masses.
I'm sure the coal plants that were shutting down until crypto miners bought them is just pure FUD.
And I guess Satoshi's paper on Bitcoin, which shows that Bitcoin is fundamentally run by whoever has the most CPU power, which has naturally triggered a CPU power arms race which has led to a corresponding increase in power consumption is also FUD.
(Once/if alternatives like Ethereum's Proof of Stake are the dominant force in crypto then yes, power consumption will not be a problem, but it is a very real problem now, and if it had simply been dismissed as FUD then solutions like Proof of Stake would never have been created).
And I guess Satoshi's paper on Bitcoin, which shows that Bitcoin is fundamentally run by whoever has the most CPU power, which has naturally triggered a CPU power arms race which has led to a corresponding increase in power consumption is also FUD.
(Once/if alternatives like Ethereum's Proof of Stake are the dominant force in crypto then yes, power consumption will not be a problem, but it is a very real problem now, and if it had simply been dismissed as FUD then solutions like Proof of Stake would never have been created).
Then I'll be switching all the developers in our company over to a new machine.
(Currently running XPS 13, but we are due an upgrade, especially on memory)