Putin holds a major soft power weapon, help weaken it with gas and oil rationing(boycott-russian-gas.com)
boycott-russian-gas.com
Putin holds a major soft power weapon, help weaken it with gas and oil rationing
https://www.boycott-russian-gas.com/
56 comments
Being a Frenchman, I think government could push citizens to act, increasing price of Russian gas through massive taxes or something like that. We only import like 20% gas from Russia, from what I understand. Impact would be small for us and would prepare us for potentially more severe restrictions in the futures, helping us become more resilient. Am I missing something?
So you actually ask to squeeze more money out of your own people? More specifically poor people, since AFAIK they are for biggest domestic gas consumers in France. UAU....
What you propose IMVHO will happen, not by sanction but by scarcity excuses, and not to damage Russia (actually EU push for a partial SWIFT ban, to II level Russian actors, leaving the biggest aside, while buy from Russia surge yesterday and still today) but to keep financing the Green New Deal and cutting the push toward energy giant windfall taxes.
What you propose IMVHO will happen, not by sanction but by scarcity excuses, and not to damage Russia (actually EU push for a partial SWIFT ban, to II level Russian actors, leaving the biggest aside, while buy from Russia surge yesterday and still today) but to keep financing the Green New Deal and cutting the push toward energy giant windfall taxes.
> So you actually ask to squeeze more money out of your own people?
No, we can use less gas and pay the same. People waste plenty of energy in lots of ways.
No, we can use less gas and pay the same. People waste plenty of energy in lots of ways.
Use less and pay the same is an hypocritical and outrageous way to raise prices, like some vendors of fries, sodas and soaps in UK who have recently reduced the quantities of products per package leaving the same price for the consumers.
Yes, we waste energy, but raise prices, especially hitting the lowest part of the society is definitively outrageous. Personally seeing the energy price rise I feel a small inflation in what I buy normally and have a confirmation of having made a good investment building a BBC house with a small p.v. BUT for my neighbor that's just means pay much more, not for the environment but for some humans profits.
If such raise are ONLY for "natural causes" that's would not be much fun, but still just, who consume more pollute more pay more. However present rises are NOT (at least largely not only) due to natural causes. Gas price and so electricity price in EU does not skyrocket because of the Russian but because EU Commission choose deliberately to negotiate them with monthly based future instead of long term contracts (look for Dutch TTF). The VERY SAME thing that happen in KZ: https://www.energyintel.com/download?issueId=0000017e-2c65-d... and who profit is very clear: https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/North-Sea-Oil-Operator... and https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/energy... also is clearly stated that such move is done to "rebalancing energy prices" (p. 148) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... for the Green New Deal purpose and NOT to make a Green New Deal "possible" but to make their private-public actors super-earn a very big amount of money. Normally that's have a name: embezzlement.
Yes, we waste energy, but raise prices, especially hitting the lowest part of the society is definitively outrageous. Personally seeing the energy price rise I feel a small inflation in what I buy normally and have a confirmation of having made a good investment building a BBC house with a small p.v. BUT for my neighbor that's just means pay much more, not for the environment but for some humans profits.
If such raise are ONLY for "natural causes" that's would not be much fun, but still just, who consume more pollute more pay more. However present rises are NOT (at least largely not only) due to natural causes. Gas price and so electricity price in EU does not skyrocket because of the Russian but because EU Commission choose deliberately to negotiate them with monthly based future instead of long term contracts (look for Dutch TTF). The VERY SAME thing that happen in KZ: https://www.energyintel.com/download?issueId=0000017e-2c65-d... and who profit is very clear: https://oilprice.com/Energy/Crude-Oil/North-Sea-Oil-Operator... and https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/11/energy... also is clearly stated that such move is done to "rebalancing energy prices" (p. 148) https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... for the Green New Deal purpose and NOT to make a Green New Deal "possible" but to make their private-public actors super-earn a very big amount of money. Normally that's have a name: embezzlement.
> Use less and pay the same is an hypocritical and outrageous way to raise prices
That's what taxes are there for: encourage purchases that serve the general interest.
That's what taxes are there for: encourage purchases that serve the general interest.
Hum, my own personal definition of taxes under a Democratic government is a tool to redistribute richness, nothing more, nothing less. Manipulating prices via taxes to force social change is a VERY bad idea IMVHO.
To force social change it's better incentive the new, leaving the old as always, having a first wave of citizens that try and speak enthusiastically about the new, encourage public debate teaching why something should or must change etc.
For instance lying knowing that you are lying affirming that energy prices are skyrocketing because of the bad Russian bear is the ideal recipe to create social unrest, NOT to push a real green new deal. Clearly stating that some resources are more and more scarce, using the media power for that instead of to spread lies, is far more effective: peoples who eventually do not know and refuse to at first will get convinced, peoples with different interests can't just spot the lie weaponizing it against the change. I'm firmly convinced that talking bend society, trying to master citizens like cows in a herd, like Gustave Le Bon and Eduard Bernays have done in the past do work for a short period of time and the outcome are a series of straw fires followed by deep crisis, global wars, sufferance. While real Democracies have proved to be fragile but also an incredibly effective way to evolve and cooperate. Neoliberal style propaganda is useful and works not to master the society for the society sake but to pasture peoples as cows for élite sake...
To force social change it's better incentive the new, leaving the old as always, having a first wave of citizens that try and speak enthusiastically about the new, encourage public debate teaching why something should or must change etc.
For instance lying knowing that you are lying affirming that energy prices are skyrocketing because of the bad Russian bear is the ideal recipe to create social unrest, NOT to push a real green new deal. Clearly stating that some resources are more and more scarce, using the media power for that instead of to spread lies, is far more effective: peoples who eventually do not know and refuse to at first will get convinced, peoples with different interests can't just spot the lie weaponizing it against the change. I'm firmly convinced that talking bend society, trying to master citizens like cows in a herd, like Gustave Le Bon and Eduard Bernays have done in the past do work for a short period of time and the outcome are a series of straw fires followed by deep crisis, global wars, sufferance. While real Democracies have proved to be fragile but also an incredibly effective way to evolve and cooperate. Neoliberal style propaganda is useful and works not to master the society for the society sake but to pasture peoples as cows for élite sake...
The best thing to do is lower taxes on gas to account for the inevitable rise in prices.
Once swift bans are in place the priority should be to use Russian oil and gas until the taps are turned off for non-payment.
Once swift bans are in place the priority should be to use Russian oil and gas until the taps are turned off for non-payment.
> increasing price of Russian gas through massive taxes or something like that
Unless you're using a bottled product -- you may be referring to a bottled product -- you can't choose which gas you as a consumer get, can you?
Either way, gas and energy are fairly fungible (more fungible than crypto, hah). It's not really possible to target one supply with massive tax like this without having a knock-on effect on the rest of the energy market.
To what extent is the rest of the system resilient to a permanent 20% reduction in supply? That Russian gas might be disproportionately used in generating backup electricity.
Unless you're using a bottled product -- you may be referring to a bottled product -- you can't choose which gas you as a consumer get, can you?
Either way, gas and energy are fairly fungible (more fungible than crypto, hah). It's not really possible to target one supply with massive tax like this without having a knock-on effect on the rest of the energy market.
To what extent is the rest of the system resilient to a permanent 20% reduction in supply? That Russian gas might be disproportionately used in generating backup electricity.
So this is trolling from pro-Russia, and/or anti-renewable activists right?
From their 'what not to do' section:
> Argue about what led up to this energy situation. Yes, Germany shut down nuclear plants; yes, green energy targets pushed the USA and others to reduce domestic oil and coal production.
If you actually want to do something to help, how about following the "Electrify everything in your house guide":
https://www.rewiringamerica.org/
From their 'what not to do' section:
> Argue about what led up to this energy situation. Yes, Germany shut down nuclear plants; yes, green energy targets pushed the USA and others to reduce domestic oil and coal production.
If you actually want to do something to help, how about following the "Electrify everything in your house guide":
https://www.rewiringamerica.org/
How does electrifying your house solve the problem? That electricity still needs to come from someplace, and more often that not it comes from a combination of coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear.
Maybe someday when we can generate 100% of what we need from renewable sources - but we aren't even close to being there yet, and in the meantime, people still need energy.
Maybe someday when we can generate 100% of what we need from renewable sources - but we aren't even close to being there yet, and in the meantime, people still need energy.
It solves tomorrow's problem. Currently most electrical grids are moving to less carbon intensive electricity generation methods ( even if many still use coal, oil and gas power plants), and if you electrify now, your carbon emissions will drop with the grid's, and the job of "greenify"-ing everything would be done.
Furthermore, if you live in a country where electricity produces very low amounts of carbon ( like France or the Nordics), it already makes sense.
Furthermore, if you live in a country where electricity produces very low amounts of carbon ( like France or the Nordics), it already makes sense.
Still think it silly to think that will make any difference - if I heat my house now with natural gas or oil, am I really doing the environment any favors by switching to electric where in some regions a very high percentage comes from coal (and natural gas and oil)? and the more people that switch to electric, and the faster they switch it will increase even more the amount of coal being burned - it just gets burned in someone else's neighborhood instead of my own.
IMO, money and effort would be much better spent modernizing and insulating homes and replacing really old appliances (including furnaces and boilers) and thus reducing the overall demand for energy - regardless of the source of the fuel. Reducing the need is hard to argue with - changing where it comes from - when very little comes from renewables doesn't even move the needle.
IMO, money and effort would be much better spent modernizing and insulating homes and replacing really old appliances (including furnaces and boilers) and thus reducing the overall demand for energy - regardless of the source of the fuel. Reducing the need is hard to argue with - changing where it comes from - when very little comes from renewables doesn't even move the needle.
> if I heat my house now with natural gas or oil, am I really doing the environment any favors by switching to electric where in some regions a very high percentage comes from coal (and natural gas and oil)?
Yes.
The precise details will vary by location, but for example this was a very common argument used against EVs, they're just coal powered cars! So the Union of Concerned Scientists did reports on exactly how bad an EV in specific locations would be, and even in highly coal dependant areas, it was still better, today, and would only get better as the grid gets greener.
https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/are-electric-vehicles...
Lots of people seem unaware that heat pumps are about 4x the efficiency of even modern gas heaters, so just burning the gas in electricity generators would be enough for us to cut out all Russian imports and more.
You are right that insulation, and efficiency are important (e.g. it makes sense to insulate your house properly when planning a heat pump install, and the oldest and least efficient boilers should be targetted first for upgrade) that was part of my point, see the link to the Energy Saving Trust who have in depth details on exactly which things help the most and cost the least, and look up your local equivalent.
Yes.
The precise details will vary by location, but for example this was a very common argument used against EVs, they're just coal powered cars! So the Union of Concerned Scientists did reports on exactly how bad an EV in specific locations would be, and even in highly coal dependant areas, it was still better, today, and would only get better as the grid gets greener.
https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/are-electric-vehicles...
Lots of people seem unaware that heat pumps are about 4x the efficiency of even modern gas heaters, so just burning the gas in electricity generators would be enough for us to cut out all Russian imports and more.
You are right that insulation, and efficiency are important (e.g. it makes sense to insulate your house properly when planning a heat pump install, and the oldest and least efficient boilers should be targetted first for upgrade) that was part of my point, see the link to the Energy Saving Trust who have in depth details on exactly which things help the most and cost the least, and look up your local equivalent.
For the record, while its clear you think I'm not with you, I totally agree with this statement.
Increasing demand for electricity is absolutely essential to convince politicians to back the scale up of the grid that will be needed as more people have electric cars and home heating systems.
Buying electric everything today creates demand that forces the hand of people debating installing new natural gas infrastructure that will be used for 80 years, or finally saying that it isn't worth it because a high percentage of people switched to electric and we can't justify the cost anymore for a few holdouts on gas, we just force the last few to switch to electric at that point.
All that being said, today people are dying, and Europe is afraid to do much about it because everyone has been increasing natural gas use to offset coal, it was a cheap solution to part of the problem.
We might not agree that resisting Russian expansionism is an important short term objective, but I believe we need to start acting like Russia rewrote the world order a few days ago and we can either fight that or roll over.
Increasing demand for electricity is absolutely essential to convince politicians to back the scale up of the grid that will be needed as more people have electric cars and home heating systems.
Buying electric everything today creates demand that forces the hand of people debating installing new natural gas infrastructure that will be used for 80 years, or finally saying that it isn't worth it because a high percentage of people switched to electric and we can't justify the cost anymore for a few holdouts on gas, we just force the last few to switch to electric at that point.
All that being said, today people are dying, and Europe is afraid to do much about it because everyone has been increasing natural gas use to offset coal, it was a cheap solution to part of the problem.
We might not agree that resisting Russian expansionism is an important short term objective, but I believe we need to start acting like Russia rewrote the world order a few days ago and we can either fight that or roll over.
Because electrical things are more efficient, cleaner and cheaper and just generally better than any alternative that burns fossil fuels directly, so less fossil fuels get burned and less fossil fuels get bought and oil-based economies can't get away with flying 747s into tall buildings or invading their neighbours any more. I don't think this is particularly complicated, but I did just link to a whole book on the topic if you're not getting the general gist.
Wouldn’t a pro Russian troll be telling you TO argue about those things to divide us??? And why in gods name would an anti renewable activist want to advocate for an energy boycott??
If anything, your comment sounds like a Russian troll by derailing and deflecting the conversation off topic
If anything, your comment sounds like a Russian troll by derailing and deflecting the conversation off topic
Because it's been a long standing tactic of fossil fuel booster to make a big deal about how we need to give up stuff in order to fight climate change?
Because they know people won't like that message. Whereas, buy an EV or an induction hub, or underfloor heating with a heat pump, insulate your home and your life will get better at the same time as fighting climate change and fossil-fueled dictactorships?
Because they know people won't like that message. Whereas, buy an EV or an induction hub, or underfloor heating with a heat pump, insulate your home and your life will get better at the same time as fighting climate change and fossil-fueled dictactorships?
It would have to be very subtle trolling since mentioning a certain pipe in Canada would definitely have rustled some jimmies.
I can assure you I am not pro-Russia.
I'm happy to take suggestions on edits for the website.
I do support green energy targets, but I believe this situation proves the world did some math wrong. Russia is much more aggressive than we were willing to accept even a few weeks ago. The west has been increasing its purchasing of Russian gas and oil despite the fact they had annexed Crimea and supported the separatists.
I think we need to talk about what needs to happen in the short term right now. Most of the discussion I am seeing everywhere is people on the right taking shots at Biden and Germany for shutting down domestic production and caring about green energy targets.
Part of what I'm trying to get everyone to realize is that the left and right are on the same side. Conservatives that are taking a second to stop mocking the green energy movement are also shouting "this is why energy independence is national security".
I'm trying to bridge 2 sides of the debate, I think us lefties need to accept that energy independence in any means possible might be more strategically important in the short run.
I'm happy to take suggestions on edits for the website.
I do support green energy targets, but I believe this situation proves the world did some math wrong. Russia is much more aggressive than we were willing to accept even a few weeks ago. The west has been increasing its purchasing of Russian gas and oil despite the fact they had annexed Crimea and supported the separatists.
I think we need to talk about what needs to happen in the short term right now. Most of the discussion I am seeing everywhere is people on the right taking shots at Biden and Germany for shutting down domestic production and caring about green energy targets.
Part of what I'm trying to get everyone to realize is that the left and right are on the same side. Conservatives that are taking a second to stop mocking the green energy movement are also shouting "this is why energy independence is national security".
I'm trying to bridge 2 sides of the debate, I think us lefties need to accept that energy independence in any means possible might be more strategically important in the short run.
Assuming you are genuine, there's plenty of sensible advice out there already on how to cut your fossil fuel usage. Linking that to the current story of Russia's oligarchs using their fossil profits to invade and kill democratic neighbours gives people an impetus to do things that will actually make their own life better, but that they may not have heard about, because right-wing propaganda has drowned it out.
As I shared recently, most countries will have the equivalent of
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/energy-at-home/
Which will tell you ways to save money, and keep your house warmer while also reducing fossil fuel usage. Find and disseminate that, the wider knowledge of fossil fuels being an expensive con will do more to destabilize Putin than anything I've read on your page currently.
If you want people to tie it closer to Ukraine, point out that these sites will often tell you how much money you will save by making these choices, get people to donate that money to Ukraine or an organisation that is helping us to move off fossil fuels.
As I shared recently, most countries will have the equivalent of
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/energy-at-home/
Which will tell you ways to save money, and keep your house warmer while also reducing fossil fuel usage. Find and disseminate that, the wider knowledge of fossil fuels being an expensive con will do more to destabilize Putin than anything I've read on your page currently.
If you want people to tie it closer to Ukraine, point out that these sites will often tell you how much money you will save by making these choices, get people to donate that money to Ukraine or an organisation that is helping us to move off fossil fuels.
But obviously people aren't doing this on a massive scale. Despite appliances getting more efficient, energy consumption continues to rise faster than population increases.
I'm trying to mobilize a wartime effort of massive reductions to increase western soft power. If just 2-5% of the buildings currently being heated in the world could have their thermostats effectively off that would change the calculus that pretty much all of Europe is struggling with. It is the exact reason we were slow to cut off SWIFT, and we are still holding back on anything like a proactive oil or gas embargo from our side.
Those options are totally off the table if we cannot rally widespread support for righting Russian aggression, maybe even going further than lighting up buildings with colors and sending money to a out-manned nation that is under siege.
I'm trying to mobilize a wartime effort of massive reductions to increase western soft power. If just 2-5% of the buildings currently being heated in the world could have their thermostats effectively off that would change the calculus that pretty much all of Europe is struggling with. It is the exact reason we were slow to cut off SWIFT, and we are still holding back on anything like a proactive oil or gas embargo from our side.
Those options are totally off the table if we cannot rally widespread support for righting Russian aggression, maybe even going further than lighting up buildings with colors and sending money to a out-manned nation that is under siege.
Energy consumption isn't a problem. Only fossil fuel use. And it only benefits Putin to conflate the two of those things, as they are quite distinct.
In the short term the two are interchangeable, we cannot build enough solar panels and batteries to help the people being killed in Ukraine today.
So this is just anti-renewable trolling which happens to help Putin then, ok, carry on and have fun.
Personally I've built my new home, insulation/airtightness/VMC/* and domestic p.v., being full electric and with a small lithium backup enough for passing an evening+night at minimum services (8kWh) + an emergency generator if needed... I doubt I can be considered a "anti-renewable activists", at least, I do that not because of an ideological cause but because I think that's good for me in practical terms (big initial investment, but ars covered for a not so marginal period of time and in case of troubles I expect in service disruption in the future), also I'm not one of the many that think to be environmental friendly because they live in cities and shop by feet few meters away, completely ignoring and rejecting if told, that such lifestyle demand a far big pollution they do not see, just outside their walled garden and sight, not much differently than the classic Orwell phrase: "Those who 'abjure' violence can do so only because others are committing violence on their behalf" but anyway... Also coming from an Italian WWII Partisan family (nephew of) I doubt I can be pro- any dictatorship, but exactly because of what I learn from my family I know how important is distinguishing "the real enemy", it's soldiers, some of them "without their knowledge", and it's own people...
The "so called green tech" can be theoretically cheap, but it's not really cheap on the market for various reasons, and while can work very well in certain sites can't do the same everywhere. For instance being in French south p.v. is effective, if it became legal here a hyper-small Pelton in the creek can push me toward real self-sufficiency for the MTBF of such system at least, but elsewhere?
In EU most people live in dense cities, no chance for effective and substantial energy improvement of buildings, their are tight and not "well oriented", there is not much room for renewable in general there. People living north if they do not have options for combined hydro+wind do not have much choices either, and they need far more energy to heat for a much bigger time period.
That's JUST to talk about private housing. Now if we also put on the table industry needs and EVs... We can't even with all nuclear, coal, oil, ... combined produce enough electricity for all. Not only: so far lithium tech is good enough for certain appliance BUT is not really recyclable (yes, experiments, startup do exists but they are experiments and startup not well established tech and developed industry at scale) and batteries does not last longer. If only they can last 20 years buying lithium storage, not just as a very expensive home-wide UPS, can be interesting for full autonomy, but that's not the case so far, and even if prices have fallen much in "historical terms" it's still too expensive for its lifespan. Even to stabilize the net it's then not an option, and that's a big problem if we really push renewable. Most people ignore the fact that to keep AC systems alive supply and demand MUST match, at a certain scale demand tend to be constant enough to offer network stability, below and above that it's extremely hard to keep the power on-line.
Long story short: I like much the idea, but I still have to see a fully working implementation for the masses or anything that can scale for industrial needs everywhere. Even at residential, individual home level, the sole practically usable at a certain scale today the balance is not really green: hot water is made with a heat-pump + classic resistance (and that's the best for solar since it's load remain almost flat, no phasing effects) it's not really complex but have a 10 years life expectancy and it's not much recyclable. Solar panels theoretically last longer, BUT practically if evolution continue it's not much interesting keep them more than 10 years, batteries last 5-8 years for EV, perhaps 8-10 for p.v. usage if not much stressed. Again really hard to recycle, mining what's needed for them is not cleaner than digging for oil and so on. Essentially we do not have anything really circular at actual population scale. We can be "long enough and recyclable enough" only for a far smaller population that being smaller can use certain resources on scale at a renewable level. If you do not propose a big genocide... There is no real "solutions", only different paths toward the unknown.
The "so called green tech" can be theoretically cheap, but it's not really cheap on the market for various reasons, and while can work very well in certain sites can't do the same everywhere. For instance being in French south p.v. is effective, if it became legal here a hyper-small Pelton in the creek can push me toward real self-sufficiency for the MTBF of such system at least, but elsewhere?
In EU most people live in dense cities, no chance for effective and substantial energy improvement of buildings, their are tight and not "well oriented", there is not much room for renewable in general there. People living north if they do not have options for combined hydro+wind do not have much choices either, and they need far more energy to heat for a much bigger time period.
That's JUST to talk about private housing. Now if we also put on the table industry needs and EVs... We can't even with all nuclear, coal, oil, ... combined produce enough electricity for all. Not only: so far lithium tech is good enough for certain appliance BUT is not really recyclable (yes, experiments, startup do exists but they are experiments and startup not well established tech and developed industry at scale) and batteries does not last longer. If only they can last 20 years buying lithium storage, not just as a very expensive home-wide UPS, can be interesting for full autonomy, but that's not the case so far, and even if prices have fallen much in "historical terms" it's still too expensive for its lifespan. Even to stabilize the net it's then not an option, and that's a big problem if we really push renewable. Most people ignore the fact that to keep AC systems alive supply and demand MUST match, at a certain scale demand tend to be constant enough to offer network stability, below and above that it's extremely hard to keep the power on-line.
Long story short: I like much the idea, but I still have to see a fully working implementation for the masses or anything that can scale for industrial needs everywhere. Even at residential, individual home level, the sole practically usable at a certain scale today the balance is not really green: hot water is made with a heat-pump + classic resistance (and that's the best for solar since it's load remain almost flat, no phasing effects) it's not really complex but have a 10 years life expectancy and it's not much recyclable. Solar panels theoretically last longer, BUT practically if evolution continue it's not much interesting keep them more than 10 years, batteries last 5-8 years for EV, perhaps 8-10 for p.v. usage if not much stressed. Again really hard to recycle, mining what's needed for them is not cleaner than digging for oil and so on. Essentially we do not have anything really circular at actual population scale. We can be "long enough and recyclable enough" only for a far smaller population that being smaller can use certain resources on scale at a renewable level. If you do not propose a big genocide... There is no real "solutions", only different paths toward the unknown.
There are small steps that you can take. Use hot water sparingly, turning down the thermostat and driving slower can all help. I don't think we need to pass laws to do this though as any changes to a way of life is an attack on freedom.
Yup, my exact point is that tons of people will riot if the government tells them "we need to cut back to fight the Russians".
I'm trying to get people to accept ahead of a sudden need to change our behavior or fold to Russian pressures, we can start getting ready for the worst that may come.
I'm trying to get people to accept ahead of a sudden need to change our behavior or fold to Russian pressures, we can start getting ready for the worst that may come.
It might be an idea to just supply Europe with more oil from Canada / the us.
This seems like it would have the same effect as increasing prices/tariffs, but in a much more convoluted way.
I think some form of natural gas protectionism is absolutely coming.
Speaking as a Brit I would definitely not rule out our government trying it.
Speaking as a Brit I would definitely not rule out our government trying it.
Absolutely, but this is more possible if we can start a giant rationing movement. Biden already had to talk about how he was going to keep prices low at the pump while we impose sanctions. This is what we can do as individuals to help with that effort.
Unfortunately there isn't a ton of capacity to transport natural gas across the Atlantic, it is possible and we are doing it, but we don't have enough infrastructure and specialized ships for this to replace more than a small fraction of what comes in from Russia through existing pipelines.
Nordstream 2 stalling is not a bad step, but that is future harm to Russia, we need to be hurting Russia today as well as preparing for a potential shutoff of all exports.
Unfortunately there isn't a ton of capacity to transport natural gas across the Atlantic, it is possible and we are doing it, but we don't have enough infrastructure and specialized ships for this to replace more than a small fraction of what comes in from Russia through existing pipelines.
Nordstream 2 stalling is not a bad step, but that is future harm to Russia, we need to be hurting Russia today as well as preparing for a potential shutoff of all exports.
Keystone XL could be approved that would help the US with more supply freeing transport by other methods for Europe.
I’d be willing to ration if there was movement on energy security. If our leaders don’t want to increase supply I’m not really interested.
I’d be willing to ration if there was movement on energy security. If our leaders don’t want to increase supply I’m not really interested.
Hello @dang this appears to be shadow banned and I don't understand why, it got a lot of interest and I think this discussion is useful for more people to see.
Did I violate any HN rule by posting this?
Did I violate any HN rule by posting this?
What makes you think this is shadowbanned?
It got 30 upvotes and many comments in the first 30 minutes, briefly was on the front page but now it isn't listed at all, I can only find it with search or a direct link.
Can any nuclear plants be reopened in a reasonable amount of time?
Of course they could. But Germany would rather rely on Russia than have nuke energy.
Russian oil and gas is greener and has a lower carbon foot print according to them.
Russian oil and gas is greener and has a lower carbon foot print according to them.
Yo! I encourage you to read down to the "what NOT to do" section.
This type of bickering is exactly what I'm trying to convince people to avoid.
I think we should take this moment to acknowledge what lots of people agree on, energy independence is good for security.
I'm trying to make the website neutral, but its hard in the current political climate. I think liberals need to accept that energy independence is good even if it doesn't come 100% renewable. And also trying to rally conservatives to accept that renewables are a longer term play, but are kind of the only option for nations that have no domestic oil reserves.
But that is kind of all irrelevant right now, Russia could cut off gas from Europe today! I'm trying to prevent us from being caught with our pants down and having to cave an otherwise pretty united international response.
This type of bickering is exactly what I'm trying to convince people to avoid.
I think we should take this moment to acknowledge what lots of people agree on, energy independence is good for security.
I'm trying to make the website neutral, but its hard in the current political climate. I think liberals need to accept that energy independence is good even if it doesn't come 100% renewable. And also trying to rally conservatives to accept that renewables are a longer term play, but are kind of the only option for nations that have no domestic oil reserves.
But that is kind of all irrelevant right now, Russia could cut off gas from Europe today! I'm trying to prevent us from being caught with our pants down and having to cave an otherwise pretty united international response.
It’s Germany’s choice. I’m not rationing anything because they chose a course of action with predictable consequences.
They made their clean energy bed, and lectured everyone else on it, they can lie in it.
If they like the results they can keep going, if they don’t in the long run there’s still time to change the road your on.
They made their clean energy bed, and lectured everyone else on it, they can lie in it.
If they like the results they can keep going, if they don’t in the long run there’s still time to change the road your on.
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i wouldnt be surprised if russia cuts off oil and gas to europe due to the sanctions imposed.
im not sure consumer rationing is gonna solve this problem. but i could be wrong.
im not sure consumer rationing is gonna solve this problem. but i could be wrong.
I don't expect this to be a complete solution, but I am also very fearful that things will get shut off.
People are talking about this threat, but mostly to express despair. I'm trying to rally support and action ahead of the chaos that will ensue when things get shut off if there isn't a plan.
Starting grassroots I'm hoping will increase the chances people are willing to accept rationing. Governments won't be able to convince their people to hold firm against Russia and tolerate mass shortages suddenly given what I'm perceiving as a deficit of real support and widespread action right now.
People are talking about this threat, but mostly to express despair. I'm trying to rally support and action ahead of the chaos that will ensue when things get shut off if there isn't a plan.
Starting grassroots I'm hoping will increase the chances people are willing to accept rationing. Governments won't be able to convince their people to hold firm against Russia and tolerate mass shortages suddenly given what I'm perceiving as a deficit of real support and widespread action right now.
i dont know that people will have a choice when it comes to tolerating mass shortages.
people are so used to comfort. i wouldnt want to see the situation in which that comfort is cut off. so i applaud your intentions.
maybe europe should build some more solar and wind farms.
people are so used to comfort. i wouldnt want to see the situation in which that comfort is cut off. so i applaud your intentions.
maybe europe should build some more solar and wind farms.
Unfortunately this is about the level of discourse I'm seeing everywhere. Mocking green energy targets.
Right now I think this is profoundly unproductive. Ukraine should not have been invaded, Russia violated international law and is committing war crimes.
A relatively small nation is holding the line against a world power and all I'm trying to say is maybe enough people in the world care, or should care, about resisting the actions of a dictator. I think if our grandfathers and great grandfathers could fight and die to prevent expansionist nations aggression, maybe the muted 21st century version of what we can do is be organize ourselves a little and tolerate some discomfort.
Right now I think this is profoundly unproductive. Ukraine should not have been invaded, Russia violated international law and is committing war crimes.
A relatively small nation is holding the line against a world power and all I'm trying to say is maybe enough people in the world care, or should care, about resisting the actions of a dictator. I think if our grandfathers and great grandfathers could fight and die to prevent expansionist nations aggression, maybe the muted 21st century version of what we can do is be organize ourselves a little and tolerate some discomfort.
> i wouldnt be surprised if russia cuts off oil and gas to Europe due to the sanctions imposed.
That would be economic suicide, but if that decision will be taken it already has been taken, surely?
Putin would know he'd face unprecedented sanctions but you can't just switch off the pipes. There are significant production decisions to be made quite far in advance, I think?
Also I don't think you can just really decide to keep the fuel you've already pumped; the question of where to put it is a challenging one.
He does have this choice but not in quite as simple, binary terms as it might seem, at least as far as I understand it. It'd be interesting to hear from someone with industrial domain knowledge though.
That would be economic suicide, but if that decision will be taken it already has been taken, surely?
Putin would know he'd face unprecedented sanctions but you can't just switch off the pipes. There are significant production decisions to be made quite far in advance, I think?
Also I don't think you can just really decide to keep the fuel you've already pumped; the question of where to put it is a challenging one.
He does have this choice but not in quite as simple, binary terms as it might seem, at least as far as I understand it. It'd be interesting to hear from someone with industrial domain knowledge though.
No thank you.
Sounds like some mandatory WFH if your job position can handle it would help out here.
Maybe I would follow some of the advice he's proposing, if it were given by someone from EU, also paying those costs.
As I see it, its some American roleplaying real help
As I see it, its some American roleplaying real help
This impacts me too, the US does export liquid natural gas that could help some. I'm also trying to encourage everyone to reduce consumption, even in the US, because it could enable some resource re-balancing if it comes to that.
Russia coming out of this stronger helps none of us. The way I see it is that without starting this discussion we are steaming towards an inevitable outcome where Putin puts pressure on this issue and the whole world just gives up and lets him do whatever he wants.
Russia coming out of this stronger helps none of us. The way I see it is that without starting this discussion we are steaming towards an inevitable outcome where Putin puts pressure on this issue and the whole world just gives up and lets him do whatever he wants.