Is Elden Ring that hard? Well, it depends what you mean by “hard”(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
Is Elden Ring that hard? Well, it depends what you mean by “hard”
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/03/is-elden-ring-really-that-hard-well-it-depends-what-you-mean-by-hard/
127 comments
This game is a masterpiece, it's hard to explain to some people asking if they should try how immersive the game is. The feeling of dread and joy, mystery lurking from everywhere, that gasp of joy when you find a secret path or something unexpected. Bloodstains showing people fighting some crazy stuff in a safe area, making you question your safety. The game has so many memorable experiencies that is hard to explain it all, it's not about the graphics but the supreme immersion and game play. The multiplayer approach is also something that fits right into my alley, you get help whenever you need (want), not more not less.
This is exactly how I feel about Wordle.
This made me snort, and I almost got got coffee in my sinuses.
Elden Ring is one of many open world ARPG's. Souls games were unique and untouchable. now ER is in human form outside its safety bounds, and being invaded.
The game's supposed to compete with Monster Hunter, Final Fantasy, Elder Scrolls, Dragons Dogma, etc. And how can it? You don't have a party, you don't have quests, you don't have a narrated story, nor giant enemies who react to weaknesses and have special ways to be fought.
What's the difference between your first handcrafted Draugr cave filled with traps in Skyrim, and your first handcrafted goblin cave filled with traps in Elden Ring? I think, it's that one came out 11 years ago.
The game's supposed to compete with Monster Hunter, Final Fantasy, Elder Scrolls, Dragons Dogma, etc. And how can it? You don't have a party, you don't have quests, you don't have a narrated story, nor giant enemies who react to weaknesses and have special ways to be fought.
What's the difference between your first handcrafted Draugr cave filled with traps in Skyrim, and your first handcrafted goblin cave filled with traps in Elden Ring? I think, it's that one came out 11 years ago.
I think that you've missed the beauty of Elden Ring (and the Souls series in general).
> you don't have quests
You do have quests! They just aren't forced upon you. Listen to the dialog of characters and you'll hear where they're heading and what they want you to do.
> you don't have a narrated story
Exactly! Instead of being told a grand narrative of what happened, you piece it together on your own, if you care. If you don't, then just ignore it.
> nor giant enemies who react to weaknesses and have special ways to be fought.
The whole point of combat in the Souls series is that every enemy (giant or small, boss or minion) is dangerous, and you have to learn how to fight them to win. Every enemy has weaknesses (whether that be to damage types or after certain attacks).
The core difference between Elden Ring and the other games you listed is the atmosphere and tension. If you don't feel it, maybe it's not the game for you and that's okay.
> you don't have quests
You do have quests! They just aren't forced upon you. Listen to the dialog of characters and you'll hear where they're heading and what they want you to do.
> you don't have a narrated story
Exactly! Instead of being told a grand narrative of what happened, you piece it together on your own, if you care. If you don't, then just ignore it.
> nor giant enemies who react to weaknesses and have special ways to be fought.
The whole point of combat in the Souls series is that every enemy (giant or small, boss or minion) is dangerous, and you have to learn how to fight them to win. Every enemy has weaknesses (whether that be to damage types or after certain attacks).
The core difference between Elden Ring and the other games you listed is the atmosphere and tension. If you don't feel it, maybe it's not the game for you and that's okay.
It's a bit naive to compare it on those terms while completely ignoring the sheer superiority of ER's world building. It is of course personal opinion, but no open world RPG has amazed me as consistently when discovering new regions to explore. Fromsoft has provided what is probably the most beautiful and diverse world ever crafted at a macro level, while staying true to the Souls formula at a micro level. Even the worst of the small dungeons retain a very Souls-like quality to them which allows them to keep you always on your guard, hence making exploration much more dynamic.
It's also pretty disingenuous to state the differences between ER and other open world RPGs and then pretend it has to compete with other titles exactly on those points. It is true that ER has moved into a more popular genre, but it still remains a very niche type of game. It's not this incredibly popular because it moved to a full-on mainstream genre: it took some more widely appreciated concepts and adapted the souls formula to them, but what everyone is praising is how well they managed to keep those core souls values intact while moving to this new genre.
It's also pretty disingenuous to state the differences between ER and other open world RPGs and then pretend it has to compete with other titles exactly on those points. It is true that ER has moved into a more popular genre, but it still remains a very niche type of game. It's not this incredibly popular because it moved to a full-on mainstream genre: it took some more widely appreciated concepts and adapted the souls formula to them, but what everyone is praising is how well they managed to keep those core souls values intact while moving to this new genre.
> The game's supposed to compete with Monster Hunter, Final Fantasy, Elder Scrolls, Dragons Dogma, etc. And how can it?
It let me start a game and just explore the world without being forced through a long intro/tutorial, doesn't have vast amounts of clicking through dialogue and I find the world way more interesting than what I saw playing ~2 hours into one of the recent MH games, or ~10 of Skyrim.
It let me start a game and just explore the world without being forced through a long intro/tutorial, doesn't have vast amounts of clicking through dialogue and I find the world way more interesting than what I saw playing ~2 hours into one of the recent MH games, or ~10 of Skyrim.
You are seeing this from the wrong perspective.
It's those games that now have to live up to Elden ring standard... Elden Ring is eating all open world alive.
And it doesn't compete with MH at all, mh is not open world and it's made of a series of small, intense boss fights. Elden ring usually is digested in long exploratory sections and days-long boss fights (due to wipes).
No quests? THANK YOU. Elden ring has only a handful of "kinda quests" and due to that, there is no chance for wolf-poop-gathering quests.
The entire focus is on the WORLD, on the environment and its secrets. This is how I expected open world to be a thing, and it never was.
I never liked open world, but elden ring is good.
Thank you fromsoftware, please keep doing this work, maybe AAA studios will wake up now.
It's those games that now have to live up to Elden ring standard... Elden Ring is eating all open world alive.
And it doesn't compete with MH at all, mh is not open world and it's made of a series of small, intense boss fights. Elden ring usually is digested in long exploratory sections and days-long boss fights (due to wipes).
No quests? THANK YOU. Elden ring has only a handful of "kinda quests" and due to that, there is no chance for wolf-poop-gathering quests.
The entire focus is on the WORLD, on the environment and its secrets. This is how I expected open world to be a thing, and it never was.
I never liked open world, but elden ring is good.
Thank you fromsoftware, please keep doing this work, maybe AAA studios will wake up now.
This is the first game that jump scared me with a literal shadow of a tree. There's a windy area with a lot of swaying trees and it was a time of the day with a lot of sunrays, the branches casted a weird moving shadow on the ground and I got scared after getting ambushed so many times.
I like CRPGs but they're so few and far between now. The last big studio releasing them was Bethesda and I really hate the systems used in the various Elder Scrolls games. Specifically, I hate scaling content.
The old style was that level was used to direct a player to or away from certain areas and to provide a broad direction. Too weak? Go somewhere else, get some levels and gear and come back. It's easy to understand.
Somewhere along the line studios decided this wasn't enough freedom or it was simply too hard to get the levels right that they gave up and just made everything scale to your level. So really there's no point in gaining levels. In fact, it can actually hurt you if you level ineffectively. So this robs the player of the reward of progression and removes player agency.
Breath of the Wild broke the mold (or returned to the old model depending on your POV) and gave you open world without scaling content. You can complete the game with 3 hearts and base gear if you really want to. The speed runs of BotW are amazing. Or if you want to play less sweaty you can take the scenic route.
I'm honestly surprised there haven't been more copies of this wildly successful formula. I feel like Elden Ring is really the first to try (and succeed). That's how you have to look at it though: boss too hard? Go somewhere else, get stronger and come back. You're essentially choosing your level of difficulty.
People who ask for an easy mode are missing the point entirely. They're asking for a content conveyor belt with no player agency, essentially. Game companies need to stop listening to these people. They're just wrong.
This is a massive mistake game companies make: trying to market their games to people who don't like them at the expense of people who do.
The old style was that level was used to direct a player to or away from certain areas and to provide a broad direction. Too weak? Go somewhere else, get some levels and gear and come back. It's easy to understand.
Somewhere along the line studios decided this wasn't enough freedom or it was simply too hard to get the levels right that they gave up and just made everything scale to your level. So really there's no point in gaining levels. In fact, it can actually hurt you if you level ineffectively. So this robs the player of the reward of progression and removes player agency.
Breath of the Wild broke the mold (or returned to the old model depending on your POV) and gave you open world without scaling content. You can complete the game with 3 hearts and base gear if you really want to. The speed runs of BotW are amazing. Or if you want to play less sweaty you can take the scenic route.
I'm honestly surprised there haven't been more copies of this wildly successful formula. I feel like Elden Ring is really the first to try (and succeed). That's how you have to look at it though: boss too hard? Go somewhere else, get stronger and come back. You're essentially choosing your level of difficulty.
People who ask for an easy mode are missing the point entirely. They're asking for a content conveyor belt with no player agency, essentially. Game companies need to stop listening to these people. They're just wrong.
This is a massive mistake game companies make: trying to market their games to people who don't like them at the expense of people who do.
People who ask for an easy mode are missing the point entirely.
I don't think that's fair. You can beat Eldern Ring by working through it and grinding up levels, but that takes a significant time investment. Most people who have a life that includes more than gaming (kids, business, partner, other hobbies, etc) don't have that time available. I want to get through a game without repeating content much because I want to spend my time feeling like I'm getting further, not feeling like I'm working. I play games for fun. I don't particularly want to be challenged. The days when I could boast to my friends about being better at a game than them are long over. Gaming isn't a competition for me; 'winning' at a computer game is essentially a worthless skill. I'd rather put my energy into improving the work I do to make money than making a little guy on a screen more powerful.
I don't think that requires an easy mode, but it does need thought from the devs. Some games do this really well - I never felt like playing GTA:V or Witcher 3 was grinding despite there being no difficulty level option. Every time I played I saw new things and got a bit further. I gave up on Souls games a long time ago because many times I played I didn't get anywhere - I just failed to progress over and over again. Maybe I just suck and should 'get good', but until that happens I'll just play other games.
I don't think that's fair. You can beat Eldern Ring by working through it and grinding up levels, but that takes a significant time investment. Most people who have a life that includes more than gaming (kids, business, partner, other hobbies, etc) don't have that time available. I want to get through a game without repeating content much because I want to spend my time feeling like I'm getting further, not feeling like I'm working. I play games for fun. I don't particularly want to be challenged. The days when I could boast to my friends about being better at a game than them are long over. Gaming isn't a competition for me; 'winning' at a computer game is essentially a worthless skill. I'd rather put my energy into improving the work I do to make money than making a little guy on a screen more powerful.
I don't think that requires an easy mode, but it does need thought from the devs. Some games do this really well - I never felt like playing GTA:V or Witcher 3 was grinding despite there being no difficulty level option. Every time I played I saw new things and got a bit further. I gave up on Souls games a long time ago because many times I played I didn't get anywhere - I just failed to progress over and over again. Maybe I just suck and should 'get good', but until that happens I'll just play other games.
> Most people who have a life that includes more than gaming (kids, business, partner, other hobbies, etc) don't have that time available
What's the goal here? Is it to complete the game or to enjoy the experience? If it's the former, are you really enjoying the game? If not, why are you playing it? If I'm playing a game I like and it takes me 100 hours to finish it instead of 50 then I consider that a win.
Not all character progression is created equally. Spending 40 hours grinding honey badgers would be one thing (ie overly grindy). But in Elden Ring you're talking about optional areas ie additional content.
> I just failed to progress over and over again. Maybe I just suck and should 'get good',
In BotW you could make gold to improve your armor, you could get different armor sets, you could get stronger weapons (eg particularly Lynel weapons), etc. I'm less familiar with the analogs in Elden Ring but they're there. You can totally go and do some optional area, level up and and come back and cheese the content if that's how you want to play. Elden Ring isn't forcing you to "get good".
What's the goal here? Is it to complete the game or to enjoy the experience? If it's the former, are you really enjoying the game? If not, why are you playing it? If I'm playing a game I like and it takes me 100 hours to finish it instead of 50 then I consider that a win.
Not all character progression is created equally. Spending 40 hours grinding honey badgers would be one thing (ie overly grindy). But in Elden Ring you're talking about optional areas ie additional content.
> I just failed to progress over and over again. Maybe I just suck and should 'get good',
In BotW you could make gold to improve your armor, you could get different armor sets, you could get stronger weapons (eg particularly Lynel weapons), etc. I'm less familiar with the analogs in Elden Ring but they're there. You can totally go and do some optional area, level up and and come back and cheese the content if that's how you want to play. Elden Ring isn't forcing you to "get good".
ER is part of the venerated class of game that doesn't rob you of the experience of figuring things out. You can make permanent mistakes, break your character, break the world, and fail to improve. Or, you can master it and make the world yours at any level.
I'm watching LobosJr do a SL 1 run (level 1, unupgraded character) right now, which is how I played DeS, DaS, and DaS III. However when I first played Demon's Souls, I couldn't even get up the stairs from the first Archstone without taking a hit, let alone consistently make it to the first boss. I gave it up for months, read a ton, and came back more prepared. My first run of Dark Souls took 44 hours, and now I can beat it in under 2 at SL 1. If you stick with it, you can figure it out, and you can step back at the end and say, "I grew".
I'm watching LobosJr do a SL 1 run (level 1, unupgraded character) right now, which is how I played DeS, DaS, and DaS III. However when I first played Demon's Souls, I couldn't even get up the stairs from the first Archstone without taking a hit, let alone consistently make it to the first boss. I gave it up for months, read a ton, and came back more prepared. My first run of Dark Souls took 44 hours, and now I can beat it in under 2 at SL 1. If you stick with it, you can figure it out, and you can step back at the end and say, "I grew".
I never got far in other Souls games, but with Elden Ring the crucial difference is that if you leave and 'grind levels' before facing a particular boss again, it's not really grinding most of the time.
There's so much unique/interesting content, that one could just work through that and gain enough levels, weapons, etc. to beat whatever situation you struggled with before.
Furthermore, it's only pretty late in the game that a boss truly 'gates' your progress. The first boss and big dungeon, for example, can be bypassed entirely, opening up a region that is as big as the first region(s).
I've played this game for about 30 hours now, and until now I avoided dungeons, mini-bosses, the first 'real' boss, and lots of the stronger enemies. And even though I've explored most of the starting areas, I still find new things.
It's only now (level 30+ character) that this approach starts to feel grindy, so I've finally been exploring caves and dungeons, and tried beating mini-bosses and occasionally the first main boss.
From what I hear, until some of the endgame stuff, I can expect at least as much content and variety from each of the upcoming regions. I've probably encountered less than 10% of all the stuff in this came.
The graphical design and mechanics aside (which are excellent), the staggering amount of content is one of the best things about this game.
There's so much unique/interesting content, that one could just work through that and gain enough levels, weapons, etc. to beat whatever situation you struggled with before.
Furthermore, it's only pretty late in the game that a boss truly 'gates' your progress. The first boss and big dungeon, for example, can be bypassed entirely, opening up a region that is as big as the first region(s).
I've played this game for about 30 hours now, and until now I avoided dungeons, mini-bosses, the first 'real' boss, and lots of the stronger enemies. And even though I've explored most of the starting areas, I still find new things.
It's only now (level 30+ character) that this approach starts to feel grindy, so I've finally been exploring caves and dungeons, and tried beating mini-bosses and occasionally the first main boss.
From what I hear, until some of the endgame stuff, I can expect at least as much content and variety from each of the upcoming regions. I've probably encountered less than 10% of all the stuff in this came.
The graphical design and mechanics aside (which are excellent), the staggering amount of content is one of the best things about this game.
There's some easy leveling routes. This takes about 2-4 hours:
1) Do the boulder farm for the initial 30-40 levels. Requires no killing or gear.
2) Go kill the first two bosses in the first zone (use coop summoning)
3) Do a quest to get to a really high level area and a specific easy farming spot
4) Shoot a bird so that it runs off of a cliff and do that until you're level 120 or so
However, it's unlikely you'd have figured that out within the game itself. If you're genuinely playing, you'll try to level within the zone you're in by finding the easiest enemies that give the most XP (runes) because that's what most games have you do.
Casual players should just consult external resources if they want to try these games.
1) Do the boulder farm for the initial 30-40 levels. Requires no killing or gear.
2) Go kill the first two bosses in the first zone (use coop summoning)
3) Do a quest to get to a really high level area and a specific easy farming spot
4) Shoot a bird so that it runs off of a cliff and do that until you're level 120 or so
However, it's unlikely you'd have figured that out within the game itself. If you're genuinely playing, you'll try to level within the zone you're in by finding the easiest enemies that give the most XP (runes) because that's what most games have you do.
Casual players should just consult external resources if they want to try these games.
I think they could just put "auto scale difficulty" in settings. Players who want a challange can turn it off, others can run through the world easily and feel like they beat the game.
That basically requires building 2 games as far gameplay is designed.
Sorry, I have two kids and I'm happily progressing in Elden ring, without any feeling of repetitiveness. What are you doing to find the game repetitive? I struggle to find parts I have already been given how vast it is, surely I can't say it's repetitive
Morrowind has been one of my all time favorite games for 20 years. It's cool that you don't like it, I don't mind. But, I do not think it's fair to say that the scaling content in Morrowind removes player agency. Having parts of a game be inaccessible because of artificially stronger enemies is just weird to me, and I think would actually remove player agency in an elder scrolls game.
There's no need to plan out your leveling in Morrowind. You feel you have to because you like to min-max I guess? But that misses the point of a game like this entirely. Which, again, is fine. To each their own. You don't prefer games preferentially focusing on atmosphere, world building, role playing, lore. Obviously you wouldn't say no to those things, but it sounds like they're less important (compared to combat mechanics, e.g.) for you than me.
Similarly, the only MMO that is remotely enjoyable for me is elder scrolls online. It's not for an easy mode. WOW isn't hard. It's just annoying (to me, if that needs to be said).
There's no need to plan out your leveling in Morrowind. You feel you have to because you like to min-max I guess? But that misses the point of a game like this entirely. Which, again, is fine. To each their own. You don't prefer games preferentially focusing on atmosphere, world building, role playing, lore. Obviously you wouldn't say no to those things, but it sounds like they're less important (compared to combat mechanics, e.g.) for you than me.
Similarly, the only MMO that is remotely enjoyable for me is elder scrolls online. It's not for an easy mode. WOW isn't hard. It's just annoying (to me, if that needs to be said).
I didn't play Morrowind. I started to play Skyrim but once I realized I was dealing with a scaling system I went digging. You can level too fast in Bethesda games (eg [1]). I believe this was worse in Oblivion but it's still an issue.
The problem is it forces me into decisions I don't want to make. I don't want to choose between levelling too fast and potentially making my experience playing the game worse (since enemies may get more relatively powerful). There is a world of difference betweenn monotonically increasing character power and character power that might decrease.
That turned me off the entire game.
[1]: https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/36050/are-there-a...
The problem is it forces me into decisions I don't want to make. I don't want to choose between levelling too fast and potentially making my experience playing the game worse (since enemies may get more relatively powerful). There is a world of difference betweenn monotonically increasing character power and character power that might decrease.
That turned me off the entire game.
[1]: https://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/36050/are-there-a...
Morrowind becomes too easy an hour in - you make some 99dmg fire enchantments and kill everything in a few hits. I found I would rather kill 3x stronger enemies for 3x the reward. And even then, I was already stashing millions' worth in armor and weapons I could not possibly sell to a NPC.
Enchanting in Morrowind is very easy to cheese. First, you iteratively make intelligence potions, which boost the potency of your intelligence potions. After your intelligence is in the 1000s, you can successfully enchant overpowered effects.
You can also just not do that though. I did it after a while for fun, but the game was a lot more fulfilling when I had to find good items in the world.
You can also just not do that though. I did it after a while for fun, but the game was a lot more fulfilling when I had to find good items in the world.
Divinity, baldurs gate, pathfinder (owl cat), and disco elysium have all been pretty solid.
Breath of the wild actually does have some scaling. Enemies get stronger globally (colors change) as you kill more of them. But it’s subtle enough to not connect the dots. The important bit is that things scale linearly, not exponentially like in most rpg settings. A brand new link with a decent weapon can kill a black moblin without too much trouble if they’re skilled. It’s also completely disconnected but probably correlated with your power level.
Level scaling does suck. Also in the other direction. I hate feeling too strong for content, especially main story content.
Breath of the wild actually does have some scaling. Enemies get stronger globally (colors change) as you kill more of them. But it’s subtle enough to not connect the dots. The important bit is that things scale linearly, not exponentially like in most rpg settings. A brand new link with a decent weapon can kill a black moblin without too much trouble if they’re skilled. It’s also completely disconnected but probably correlated with your power level.
Level scaling does suck. Also in the other direction. I hate feeling too strong for content, especially main story content.
> Game companies need to stop listening to these people. They're just wrong.
Or more specifically, ask them different questions. Asking players what they want to do and see is wrong. You don’t ask customers these things because they don’t really know. You ask them about the outcomes they want and you design your product/game to deliver that.
This game works because it was designed this way. You want to feel immersed, that you’re risking things and choices have consequences; being surprised, and a sense of growth and accomplishment.
It’s like the old quote: “No one goes to the store to buy a 1/4” drill. They go to buy 1/4” holes”.
Or more specifically, ask them different questions. Asking players what they want to do and see is wrong. You don’t ask customers these things because they don’t really know. You ask them about the outcomes they want and you design your product/game to deliver that.
This game works because it was designed this way. You want to feel immersed, that you’re risking things and choices have consequences; being surprised, and a sense of growth and accomplishment.
It’s like the old quote: “No one goes to the store to buy a 1/4” drill. They go to buy 1/4” holes”.
I've found that games that make you "risk things and choices have consequences" have me lose substantial progress upon death, resulting in emotional pain much like having lost multiple pages of writing and not being able to recover it. Additionally, repeatedly playing the same section upon death often makes me feel the game doesn't respect my time. IMO growth and accomplishment is not built around losing progress if you fail (much like learning to program doesn't involve throwing away your code whenever you hit a bug).
Not everything will be for everyone. There’s plenty of games that don’t respect the players ability to think and learn too. A lot of people love these games.
I think it comes down to fairness though. If I’m walking around holding lots of progress in terms of items or something else I could lose then I’m making a conscious choice to see what’s in that strange cave that’s glowing…
Poker isn’t fun if you aren’t risking something, right?
I think it comes down to fairness though. If I’m walking around holding lots of progress in terms of items or something else I could lose then I’m making a conscious choice to see what’s in that strange cave that’s glowing…
Poker isn’t fun if you aren’t risking something, right?
But the risk is artificial. It mostly boils down to “do I want to spend 5-10min running back to a save point and making my way back here?” It’s just a chore, not a real risk.
The challenge posed by a game is artificial. It could just give you all of the best items at the start and make you invincible.
The question that Souls/Elden Ring ask you is: "Can you do this consistently?"
Which is different than most games which ask: "Can you do this once?"
The former is a question of mastery, whereas the latter is a question of a combination of mastery, perseverance, and luck.
The question that Souls/Elden Ring ask you is: "Can you do this consistently?"
Which is different than most games which ask: "Can you do this once?"
The former is a question of mastery, whereas the latter is a question of a combination of mastery, perseverance, and luck.
I see your point. I guess what it boils down to for me is how aware I am of the meta-side of the choice. If I’m actively thinking “ugh I don’t want to burn 10min making a round trip” that’s not fun. But I guess for some it doesn’t register or, if it does, they don’t mind.
Totally! If you're not immersed in the mastery loop then it's definitely going to feel like a chore. For me, the runes at stake make the experience more intense. But if you don't feel the same way, I think it's perfectly fair to say it's just not your kind of game.
You’re risking your time I guess. But in the case of this game you’re risking being able to recover your runes.
I want to agree with your comment in its entirety…but I do have a significant caveat that’s important to consider when building a game experience. It needs to be communicated. I am not talking about a hold your hand tutorial necessarily (though sometimes those are useful). I just need some indicator that I am about to get in trouble. You brought up BOTW, and that is actually where I think it is very poorly implemented in some ways. I spent so many hours in the beginning dying because I went in the “wrong direction.” There is almost no warning that you are going to get rocked, and travel in that game is incredibly slow until you unlock enough towers to jump around the world/have reliable horses and good climbing.
I probably spent the first 5 to 8 hours of that game just bashing my head against the wall trying to figure out what was bad design vs. my poor decision making/inability to read cues. For a father of 2 it’s hard to commit the 2-3hr sit down a few days a week required to learn a game like that and pick up the subtleties (if any exist). I go one way: “hey some baddies by a big skull.” Bop em, no problem. I walk 2 min another direction: “hey the same baddies by a big skull.” One hit, I die, I’ve lost 20min of progress.
Not everyone wants to deal with that headache. And I get it, not every game is designed for every person. But if you’re going to not scale up, you need to tell me when I am way out of my depth. And BOTW does a terrible job of that as it invites you to explore this open world.
I probably spent the first 5 to 8 hours of that game just bashing my head against the wall trying to figure out what was bad design vs. my poor decision making/inability to read cues. For a father of 2 it’s hard to commit the 2-3hr sit down a few days a week required to learn a game like that and pick up the subtleties (if any exist). I go one way: “hey some baddies by a big skull.” Bop em, no problem. I walk 2 min another direction: “hey the same baddies by a big skull.” One hit, I die, I’ve lost 20min of progress.
Not everyone wants to deal with that headache. And I get it, not every game is designed for every person. But if you’re going to not scale up, you need to tell me when I am way out of my depth. And BOTW does a terrible job of that as it invites you to explore this open world.
Careful difficulty tuning is essential for fun gameplay. If an open-world game provides traditional exponential power and difficulty curves, and the game fails to guide you to the right content at the right time, you'll end up facing challenges which are too easy or too hard to be fun. Hollow Knight navigated this problem quite skillfully, but even in that game, I ended up effortlessly skimming through a few areas because I happened to leave them too late. What a waste of hours of content!
I'd like to see more open-world games experiment with a flat power curve: simply throw away the idea that the player character's numerical power should increase as the game goes on. If Super Mario World had increased the player's jump height or hit points based on the number of levels completed, it would have made the game much worse - so why do we tolerate the same thing from Castlevania and Final Fantasy?
Players might miss the (artificial) feeling of mastery, but I don't think it's worth the cost. Finding better ways to achieve that same feeling would be an interesting design challenge!
I'd like to see more open-world games experiment with a flat power curve: simply throw away the idea that the player character's numerical power should increase as the game goes on. If Super Mario World had increased the player's jump height or hit points based on the number of levels completed, it would have made the game much worse - so why do we tolerate the same thing from Castlevania and Final Fantasy?
Players might miss the (artificial) feeling of mastery, but I don't think it's worth the cost. Finding better ways to achieve that same feeling would be an interesting design challenge!
Zelda: OoT and MM did a great job of this. It was mostly about getting new equipment not necessarily stronger equipment. Aside from health (and doubling the magic bar in OoT) there’s no real upgrading in them, grinding isn’t even an option.
> People who ask for an easy mode are missing the point entirely.
In the original Dark Souls, the giants in Lost Izalith respawned on bonfires. This was frustrating and dumb and was changed with a patch. But I bought the xbox version and didn't get the patch. I stopped in Lost Izalith in large part because killing those giants over and over was tedious and frustrating as all get out. Would it have been wrong of me to say "I would have had more fun if that area had been easier and I'd been able to challenge myself with the bosses?"
Or imagine an extreme example. Dark Souls gives you hard modes on repeat attempts. So clearly there is a difficulty scaling. Imagine if instead everything was balanced on the first attempt like it is on the 10th. Or imagine if people were forced to complete a SL1 playthrough because level ups were removed? Would somebody then be wrong in asking for an easy mode that was equivalent to the game that was released in real life?
In the original Dark Souls, the giants in Lost Izalith respawned on bonfires. This was frustrating and dumb and was changed with a patch. But I bought the xbox version and didn't get the patch. I stopped in Lost Izalith in large part because killing those giants over and over was tedious and frustrating as all get out. Would it have been wrong of me to say "I would have had more fun if that area had been easier and I'd been able to challenge myself with the bosses?"
Or imagine an extreme example. Dark Souls gives you hard modes on repeat attempts. So clearly there is a difficulty scaling. Imagine if instead everything was balanced on the first attempt like it is on the 10th. Or imagine if people were forced to complete a SL1 playthrough because level ups were removed? Would somebody then be wrong in asking for an easy mode that was equivalent to the game that was released in real life?
This is the main reason why I’ve stopped playing games the last ten years. Everything looks like a movie that you barely interact with. Great cinematics and graphics, but the gameplay is too damn easy. And it affects all genres even adventure games are too easy these days. I remember back in the days the first time I got my hands on Myst I really had to put my brain to work to understand what I had to do. And I liked it that way because the game was a challenge, not just entertainment.
We are in an incredible era for art/innovative storytelling in gaming, it’s not all stale AAA COD clones. I highly encourage you to check out some of the best indie of the last decade. There are at least 5-10 incredible ones any given year.
Which titles would you suggest?
Oooo where to begin?
* Hades (really anything by Supergiant Games) is a masterpiece. Bastion is a must as well if you like the combat.
* Celeste is the best platform I’ve played in the last decade. The soundtrack is also incredible. I’ve got the vinyl box set on my shelf next to me as I type this.
* Not for Broadcast is a trip but may not be for you, just depends on your taste. It’s a “propaganda simulator” akin to Papers, Please and such. Check out the trailer you’ll understand it immediately. It’s wild haha
* Outer Wilds was the most challenging and fulfilling game I’ve played in years. Beautiful score, powerful and rich story. Don’t look anything up about the story/puzzles. It’s hard, you really have to think, but it’s very much beatable. It’s kind of a crazy “Groundhog Day in space.”
* Hollow Knight is a beautiful 2D metroidvania. Highly stylized, lots of awards.
* Death’s Door is a recent isometric metroidvania I’ve been enjoying a lot.
* Stardew Valley is a beautiful spiritual successor to Harvest Moon if that’s your jam. You can easily lose track of time playing it and the game’s lore/stories are surprisingly through. LOTS to uncover in a very relaxing, low stakes package.
* Wildermyth is a charming D&D-like RPG. I got a nice 20-30hrs out of it and plan on doing more. Has a quirky humor about it.
* Disco Elysium is…just play it.
The list goes on. I can throw up more if you want haha. What do you typically enjoy?
* Hades (really anything by Supergiant Games) is a masterpiece. Bastion is a must as well if you like the combat.
* Celeste is the best platform I’ve played in the last decade. The soundtrack is also incredible. I’ve got the vinyl box set on my shelf next to me as I type this.
* Not for Broadcast is a trip but may not be for you, just depends on your taste. It’s a “propaganda simulator” akin to Papers, Please and such. Check out the trailer you’ll understand it immediately. It’s wild haha
* Outer Wilds was the most challenging and fulfilling game I’ve played in years. Beautiful score, powerful and rich story. Don’t look anything up about the story/puzzles. It’s hard, you really have to think, but it’s very much beatable. It’s kind of a crazy “Groundhog Day in space.”
* Hollow Knight is a beautiful 2D metroidvania. Highly stylized, lots of awards.
* Death’s Door is a recent isometric metroidvania I’ve been enjoying a lot.
* Stardew Valley is a beautiful spiritual successor to Harvest Moon if that’s your jam. You can easily lose track of time playing it and the game’s lore/stories are surprisingly through. LOTS to uncover in a very relaxing, low stakes package.
* Wildermyth is a charming D&D-like RPG. I got a nice 20-30hrs out of it and plan on doing more. Has a quirky humor about it.
* Disco Elysium is…just play it.
The list goes on. I can throw up more if you want haha. What do you typically enjoy?
Stragegy, rpg and adventure games. But I can play anything. Thanks for the tips man.
For sure - enjoy!
Knowing that definitely put Wildermyth and Disco Elysium. Transistor (same team as hades) would probably be a hit as well.
Not really indie but Xcom: Enemy Within and Xcom 2 might be up your alley.
Not really indie but Xcom: Enemy Within and Xcom 2 might be up your alley.
> Breath of the Wild broke the mold
Elden Ring does very little differently than what other Souls games have been doing for almost 15 years. The scale and openness are just a bit greater.
Elden Ring does very little differently than what other Souls games have been doing for almost 15 years. The scale and openness are just a bit greater.
To the point that I'm frankly stunned they keep getting so much praise for it. FromSoft appears to have one game design.
IMO Not everyone has the skills, patience, time, or will to battle artificially hard games but should still be allowed to participate and enjoy the games. The ability for anyone to enjoy them is what makes computer games really great.
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I really enjoyed both Horizon games (Zero dawn and forbidden west) mainly due to their "story mode" difficulty.
The game heavily depends on being able to finely aim using a controller, which I really really suck at and I honestly no longer have the time or patience to master the skill, or grind/cheese my way to better gear that makes up for my lack of skill.
I started the first game on normal diff, and finished it on story mode most cause I enjoyed the story and various encounters.
When the game was out on PC I replayed it on very hard and even tried ultra (was an epic fail) as my overall skills with a keyboard and mouse are much better and enjoy the experience more.
I'm now going through the second game still switching between normal and easy mode whenever I can't be bothered with a 30 minute long fight (remember, I still suck) that I can't be bothered replaying.
I really appreciated that the developers allowed me to play their game in a pace and time that I was able to.
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I really enjoyed both Horizon games (Zero dawn and forbidden west) mainly due to their "story mode" difficulty.
The game heavily depends on being able to finely aim using a controller, which I really really suck at and I honestly no longer have the time or patience to master the skill, or grind/cheese my way to better gear that makes up for my lack of skill.
I started the first game on normal diff, and finished it on story mode most cause I enjoyed the story and various encounters.
When the game was out on PC I replayed it on very hard and even tried ultra (was an epic fail) as my overall skills with a keyboard and mouse are much better and enjoy the experience more.
I'm now going through the second game still switching between normal and easy mode whenever I can't be bothered with a 30 minute long fight (remember, I still suck) that I can't be bothered replaying.
I really appreciated that the developers allowed me to play their game in a pace and time that I was able to.
You can summon npcs and basically pokemom to most fights in elden ring. Using magic or toxic based builds also simplifies many bosses. You can also go around exploring a lot of the World slap some dungeon bosses and beh happy. It doesn't implement an obvious easy mode but it's there.
> IMO Not everyone has the skills, patience, time, or will to battle artificially hard games but should still be allowed to participate and enjoy the games. The ability for anyone to enjoy them is what makes computer games really great.
Yea, which is why we have mostly easy, mindless games with no depth and lots of loot boxes. Much more profitable when you focus on “accessibility” and appealing to as many people as possible (larger market). That’s why Apple gaming on iPhone is bigger than everything else. Whether by intention or accident I think “accessibility” has great branding and can be used as an excuse to focus on market share/size. “Oh we have to do this otherwise the game isn’t accessible.” Hard to stand up in the room and push back on that line.
Personally (if you can’t tell already) I think it’s better that many games aren’t accessible. There needs to be “reward” for putting in time and effort. Growing up if a game was just hard it was… just hard. You either eventually beat it or you gave up and played something else. No big deal. I’d rather there be things that exclude people I think than to have everything be super easy.
Take Skyrim versus Morrowind. As a kid I randomly stumbled across Morrowind in a local used game store. This was sort of pre-internet (or at least pre-internet in my house). So when I played Morrowind there were no guides. I had no idea what I was doing. Random fights were “hard” for me. But there was so much mystery. What is behind that locked door in the Mage’s Guild? I spent countless hours just exploring the world and discovering random stuff. It was fantastic.
Skyrim comes out (maybe I could make the same argument about Oblivion). You run into someone, oh here is the exact location of the quest. Follow the marker. You show up. Boss fight is super easy. Ride your horse around. The conversations with NPCs has little depth. There’s no mystery.
Now I admit some or much of this can be chalked up to nostalgia and misremembering either game. I still enjoyed Skyrim. But Morrowind was part of my life. Elden Ring gives me similar vibes and I’ve mostly been avoiding the Internet while playing it. There are boss fights that are just hard and I won’t progress in the game if I don’t beat them. Good. That’s a feature, not a bug. I am currently stuck on the Demonic Tree Sentinel as an astrologer. It’s frustrating. But what’s the point if I could just spend real money on a power-up or cheese the boss or just lower the difficulty level?
As an industry I of course think that there should be games that are approachable to people of all skill levels and interest. I enjoy Pokemon and Mario Cart and World of Warcraft, and also Elden Ring. But I absolutely think that developers can and should be free to make games that are not approachable whatsoever.
If it’s too hard that’s ok. There are other games and other things to do.
Yea, which is why we have mostly easy, mindless games with no depth and lots of loot boxes. Much more profitable when you focus on “accessibility” and appealing to as many people as possible (larger market). That’s why Apple gaming on iPhone is bigger than everything else. Whether by intention or accident I think “accessibility” has great branding and can be used as an excuse to focus on market share/size. “Oh we have to do this otherwise the game isn’t accessible.” Hard to stand up in the room and push back on that line.
Personally (if you can’t tell already) I think it’s better that many games aren’t accessible. There needs to be “reward” for putting in time and effort. Growing up if a game was just hard it was… just hard. You either eventually beat it or you gave up and played something else. No big deal. I’d rather there be things that exclude people I think than to have everything be super easy.
Take Skyrim versus Morrowind. As a kid I randomly stumbled across Morrowind in a local used game store. This was sort of pre-internet (or at least pre-internet in my house). So when I played Morrowind there were no guides. I had no idea what I was doing. Random fights were “hard” for me. But there was so much mystery. What is behind that locked door in the Mage’s Guild? I spent countless hours just exploring the world and discovering random stuff. It was fantastic.
Skyrim comes out (maybe I could make the same argument about Oblivion). You run into someone, oh here is the exact location of the quest. Follow the marker. You show up. Boss fight is super easy. Ride your horse around. The conversations with NPCs has little depth. There’s no mystery.
Now I admit some or much of this can be chalked up to nostalgia and misremembering either game. I still enjoyed Skyrim. But Morrowind was part of my life. Elden Ring gives me similar vibes and I’ve mostly been avoiding the Internet while playing it. There are boss fights that are just hard and I won’t progress in the game if I don’t beat them. Good. That’s a feature, not a bug. I am currently stuck on the Demonic Tree Sentinel as an astrologer. It’s frustrating. But what’s the point if I could just spend real money on a power-up or cheese the boss or just lower the difficulty level?
As an industry I of course think that there should be games that are approachable to people of all skill levels and interest. I enjoy Pokemon and Mario Cart and World of Warcraft, and also Elden Ring. But I absolutely think that developers can and should be free to make games that are not approachable whatsoever.
If it’s too hard that’s ok. There are other games and other things to do.
I get the sentiment, but I feel like this mentality more often than not backslides into the film equivalent of “it’s not my fault you’re too dumb to understand my movie” when creatives decide to make things more opaque without laying out the info needed to put it all together.
If you’ve got a story/experience to share you don’t have to make it for the lowest common denominator, but I’m sure you want more people to experience it than not. If something feels capricious or arbitrary, regardless if it is or isn’t, people tend to walk. At some point the creator has to bridge the gap.
There’s a reason FromSoftware ditched the bonfires/saves being so far from bosses like in DS1. It was needlessly punishing in a game already designed to constantly kill you and ruined people’s “grooves.”
If you’ve got a story/experience to share you don’t have to make it for the lowest common denominator, but I’m sure you want more people to experience it than not. If something feels capricious or arbitrary, regardless if it is or isn’t, people tend to walk. At some point the creator has to bridge the gap.
There’s a reason FromSoftware ditched the bonfires/saves being so far from bosses like in DS1. It was needlessly punishing in a game already designed to constantly kill you and ruined people’s “grooves.”
Classic rpg enables you to steamroll next area / level by grinding exp and equipments. In MH they can't, I guess it'll be almost the same with Elden Ring and souls series. At least not without some strategy / correct build.
Heck even in Armored Core you're toast if your mech doesn't have the correct specification with the area, it's even more brutal.
I guess they're asking for the former, to able to grind and steamroll the level after, which can work in other game, but not this genre.
Personally, I don't like level scaling system Skyrim use (and ff8), it force you to specific build or at least you'll need to know how to cheese it.
Heck even in Armored Core you're toast if your mech doesn't have the correct specification with the area, it's even more brutal.
I guess they're asking for the former, to able to grind and steamroll the level after, which can work in other game, but not this genre.
Personally, I don't like level scaling system Skyrim use (and ff8), it force you to specific build or at least you'll need to know how to cheese it.
On the other hand scaling lets me still enjoy fights even when I'm leveled up. A lot of times when the game takes you to one of the starting regions, one shotting the enemies there just felt boring. It would be much better if the enemies levelled up just a bit so that the fight is still engaging but not easy. A better approach than level scaling would be making those enemies change their move set or tactics later on.
That said I get your points about harder enimies being scaled down to the players level. This could be fixed with a smarter scaling system and i guess a lot of games today do it
That said I get your points about harder enimies being scaled down to the players level. This could be fixed with a smarter scaling system and i guess a lot of games today do it
> A better approach than level scaling would be making those enemies change their move set or tactics later on
It would be pretty neat, and it’s also incredibly time consuming/costly to essentially double or triple your combat balancing workload.
It would be pretty neat, and it’s also incredibly time consuming/costly to essentially double or triple your combat balancing workload.
If a game has an easy mode and you never select it, how is that at your expense?
“It upsets me that this pizza shop offers plain cheese pizzas” essentially.
But doesn't BotW increase the difficulty of some mobs based on the player's progress? They sure don't scale all the enemies, but still scale some. Could it be called the perfect compromise?
> People who ask for an easy mode are missing the point entirely. They're asking for a content conveyor belt with no player agency, essentially. Game companies need to stop listening to these people. They're just wrong.
This is gatekeeping. Game developers at the AAA level should strive to make them as approachable and accessible as practical. An easy mode or other accessibility options don't necessarily have to dumb down the 'intended' way to play. They can supplement the core experience so that busy or differently abled consumers can enjoy it as well.
This is gatekeeping. Game developers at the AAA level should strive to make them as approachable and accessible as practical. An easy mode or other accessibility options don't necessarily have to dumb down the 'intended' way to play. They can supplement the core experience so that busy or differently abled consumers can enjoy it as well.
I don't think it's gatekeeping. Videogames are art. It would be silly to say that every painting needs to be easy to appreciate, or that every movie needs to be easy to follow. It's equally silly to suggest that every game should be easy.
Nobody ever made great art by striving to make it 'accessible'.
Nobody ever made great art by striving to make it 'accessible'.
Museums and artists take reasonable measures to make art accessible to as many people as practical. AAA commercial art and experiences should as well. It's not a government mandate, just good business.
There’s a video of a guy beating an Elden Ring boss with his chin. I find your comment frankly insulting towards, as you put it, “differently abled consumers”.
Olympic paraplegics jumping curbs are worthy of admiration for their efforts. Curb cuts are still a worthwhile innovation.
An easy mode is not a curb cut. Options for color blindness, visual cues for hearing impaired, dyslexia friendly fonts or remappable controls are.
There are far more impairments than color blindness, dyslexia, and motor control problems. While it's not possible to accommodate every single one perfectly. Easy modes are one of the simpler ways to help a broad cross section.
Honest question: how can a game like Dark Souls (or Elden Ring which is already much easier and more approcheable) possibly convey the atmosphere of a dark, merciless world with an easy mode?
I love that all the usual replies are missing the fact that the GP said "They're asking for a content conveyor belt with no player agency".
Like, you people replying know there's a difference between accessibility options and "a content conveyor belt with no player agency", right?
It's one thing to discuss whether From games need accessibility options, it's another thing entirely to say anyone asking for them wants to remove player agency.
Like, you people replying know there's a difference between accessibility options and "a content conveyor belt with no player agency", right?
It's one thing to discuss whether From games need accessibility options, it's another thing entirely to say anyone asking for them wants to remove player agency.
For me, Souls was about From Software doing something against the grain, breaking out of the mold and being rewarded for it.
They made a game that was actively user hostile - brutal difficulty, gimmicky instakill traps, lost progress for dying, "no story". You can't even pause the game to change gear/use items (even if you're offline), limited fast travel and lots of backtracking.
All of these superficially seem like a bad idea and most of them can be rectified to make the game more accessible but to me, when you concede on all these you water down the overall creative output. Bit like how every MCU movie now feels the same because they all use that Disney formula to derisk every film to make sure it has mass appeal.
Let's also not forget - Demon's Souls was arguably not an AAA game, it was a niche rpg inspired by ghouls and goblins. From Software don't owe people anything - sometimes it's ok to make a game the way you want it because that's how you want to make the game. We can let the market decide whether we should reward that or not.
They made a game that was actively user hostile - brutal difficulty, gimmicky instakill traps, lost progress for dying, "no story". You can't even pause the game to change gear/use items (even if you're offline), limited fast travel and lots of backtracking.
All of these superficially seem like a bad idea and most of them can be rectified to make the game more accessible but to me, when you concede on all these you water down the overall creative output. Bit like how every MCU movie now feels the same because they all use that Disney formula to derisk every film to make sure it has mass appeal.
Let's also not forget - Demon's Souls was arguably not an AAA game, it was a niche rpg inspired by ghouls and goblins. From Software don't owe people anything - sometimes it's ok to make a game the way you want it because that's how you want to make the game. We can let the market decide whether we should reward that or not.
People aren't owed anything. Yet this trend toward artificial and inaccessible difficulty adds little and keeps many away from what might otherwise be interesting experiences.
How is having an option so offensive?
These aren't indies struggling to make ends meet.
How is having an option so offensive?
These aren't indies struggling to make ends meet.
That's a reasonable question and has made me pause.
The practicalities of things like pvp balance is interesting - if you invade someone on easy mode what should that mean? Does easy have an edge? Can players abuse that? What if an easy player wants to invade? Do they get an edge? If you then restrict like for like are you fracturing the player base? If easy disables invasion that is allowing players to avoid a part of the experience of souls which adds a lot of tension. As an opinionated creator (From Software) do you want to allow people to turn that off?
Difficulty is part of the IPs DNA - losing to bosses and being cheesed by traps or losing your souls creates a bonding experience and by extension community. Maybe that's why it feels "off" to allow features that water that down.
I guess when I perceive a game through the lens of a creative art, rather than a product, then an obtuse adherence to some vision seems more reasonable. Though the lines are blurry
The practicalities of things like pvp balance is interesting - if you invade someone on easy mode what should that mean? Does easy have an edge? Can players abuse that? What if an easy player wants to invade? Do they get an edge? If you then restrict like for like are you fracturing the player base? If easy disables invasion that is allowing players to avoid a part of the experience of souls which adds a lot of tension. As an opinionated creator (From Software) do you want to allow people to turn that off?
Difficulty is part of the IPs DNA - losing to bosses and being cheesed by traps or losing your souls creates a bonding experience and by extension community. Maybe that's why it feels "off" to allow features that water that down.
I guess when I perceive a game through the lens of a creative art, rather than a product, then an obtuse adherence to some vision seems more reasonable. Though the lines are blurry
> This is gatekeeping.
Damn, someone alert the Himalayan mountains, there is no wheelchair accessibility to the highest peak.
First how? There are hundreds if not thousands of games that cater to people that Soulsborne genre doesn't cater to. And very few games that cater to this niche Elden Ring servers. But ok, want to enjoy the lore there are Youtube videos, want you to get hand-holden around, play Assassin's Creed.
Second - Point of Elden Ring is to have a shared difficulty all people can experience. By insisting on Easy Mode you are essentially destroying a shared experience, so some people can have easier time to experience the tidbits of lore strewn around the landscape?
Third - You do realize ER is the easiest From Software game in a while, right?
Fourth - Just watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKyKGuGU4bw
Damn, someone alert the Himalayan mountains, there is no wheelchair accessibility to the highest peak.
First how? There are hundreds if not thousands of games that cater to people that Soulsborne genre doesn't cater to. And very few games that cater to this niche Elden Ring servers. But ok, want to enjoy the lore there are Youtube videos, want you to get hand-holden around, play Assassin's Creed.
Second - Point of Elden Ring is to have a shared difficulty all people can experience. By insisting on Easy Mode you are essentially destroying a shared experience, so some people can have easier time to experience the tidbits of lore strewn around the landscape?
Third - You do realize ER is the easiest From Software game in a while, right?
Fourth - Just watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKyKGuGU4bw
It’s not gatekeeping.
It depends on the game. The souls games are probably better for not having a configurable difficulty escape hatch. You can always summon to get help with bosses. But ultimately the game expects things of you and won’t just hand them over.
It’s quite refreshing.
It depends on the game. The souls games are probably better for not having a configurable difficulty escape hatch. You can always summon to get help with bosses. But ultimately the game expects things of you and won’t just hand them over.
It’s quite refreshing.
Gatekeeping in of itself isn't a negative and making games acccessible to everyone means it's impossible to make games that are difficult mechanically or conceptually. If you want to limit AAA games to only making games for the lowest common denominator then you must concede that AAA games will struggle with innovation or doing anything interseting. If your grandma can't play it and enjoy it then I guess it's not worth making.
Must it be so binary? And so what if there are options which mean my grandma could play it?
Does it hurt people's egos? Are folks so worried about the bragging rights of Steam trophies?
I'm not saying defaults have to be lowest denominators.
Does it hurt people's egos? Are folks so worried about the bragging rights of Steam trophies?
I'm not saying defaults have to be lowest denominators.
I think people have forgotten what a games used to be (PS1 and before)... a self-consistent system of interactions with a challenge attached to it. That challenge is meant to stump the player, and that was a huge part of the appeal, to be good at something difficult and overcome/triumph over the challenge issued by the game developers.
After mobile games became huge, the laziness of gamers has been increasingly catered to with fancy UI, quest tracking, dying with little consequence, etc. Elden Ring is doing something refreshing and apparently surprising to other game devs: it just simply leaves the player alone to solve a challenge.
After mobile games became huge, the laziness of gamers has been increasingly catered to with fancy UI, quest tracking, dying with little consequence, etc. Elden Ring is doing something refreshing and apparently surprising to other game devs: it just simply leaves the player alone to solve a challenge.
> I think people have forgotten what a games used to be (PS1 and before)
It seems like people have forgotten that not all games used to be about just mastering something difficult as well. In the end, gaming is about having fun, and different people find different experiences fun. SimCity was never hard and was not meant to be hard, but it was still fun (for me). Dark Souls is hard, but was never fun for me. Sifu is similarly hard, but not as hard, and I find the balanced experience fun, even if I die a bit too much.
I guess my point is: gaming is fun, different people find different games fun. This is OK, not everyone is the same, not every game is meant for every type of player.
It seems like people have forgotten that not all games used to be about just mastering something difficult as well. In the end, gaming is about having fun, and different people find different experiences fun. SimCity was never hard and was not meant to be hard, but it was still fun (for me). Dark Souls is hard, but was never fun for me. Sifu is similarly hard, but not as hard, and I find the balanced experience fun, even if I die a bit too much.
I guess my point is: gaming is fun, different people find different games fun. This is OK, not everyone is the same, not every game is meant for every type of player.
It's a challenge / response.
Game companies made difficult games historically. Some subset of gamers were unable or uninterested in completing them. Consequently, subsequent game companies made easier games that catered to those players.
The bone of contention I have is that the easier games pretend to be difficult games. See: COD's relentless "be a badass in cinematics" style. Which if you think about it, makes sense, as all players want to imagine they're surmounting a challenge.
But the real toxicity is that players themselves aren't clear on whether they're playing a difficult or easy game, because the latter game is lying about and obscuring its nature.
Game companies made difficult games historically. Some subset of gamers were unable or uninterested in completing them. Consequently, subsequent game companies made easier games that catered to those players.
The bone of contention I have is that the easier games pretend to be difficult games. See: COD's relentless "be a badass in cinematics" style. Which if you think about it, makes sense, as all players want to imagine they're surmounting a challenge.
But the real toxicity is that players themselves aren't clear on whether they're playing a difficult or easy game, because the latter game is lying about and obscuring its nature.
I find this being used as an excuse for bad user experience. I went in to the game without knowing it’s backstory or the other games in the series. Played for 2 hours and had hardly any idea what the point of the game was and why certain enemies seemed to be impossible to defeat. Eventually a friend pointed out that you are meant to block in combat which made things much easier. Apparently there was a combat tutorial hidden at the starting area but I couldn’t see it.
After an hour more of playing I decided I just wasn’t that interested in the game. It reminds me of the game Cuphead where you have to spend an immense amount of time trying to muscle memory timing critical inputs. Which just isn’t something I find very entertaining but when you say this to anyone you get some snide comment back like “lol, you need the journalist mode”
After an hour more of playing I decided I just wasn’t that interested in the game. It reminds me of the game Cuphead where you have to spend an immense amount of time trying to muscle memory timing critical inputs. Which just isn’t something I find very entertaining but when you say this to anyone you get some snide comment back like “lol, you need the journalist mode”
That's fair I guess. The game doesn't really force you into any particular build, whether it's blocking or doing any particular sort of combat. It is up to the player to discover the best way they can. Granted that process can be a long journey, compared to other games at least.
tbf if you have very few runes on you in Elden Ring then dying has very little consequence. Only your progress is reverted a little.
I always get rid of all my runes before starting a tough boss fight :D
No regrets then
No regrets then
Starting a long game from scratch on every mistake is from an era was when content was incredibly expensive. Forced repetition, especially of the early part of the game, is a cheap gimmick.
it’s not really a thing in ER.
I tried playing some PS1 games again « recently », using an emulator.
Wow.
I had forgotten how few, if any, instructions and indications we were given.
No wonder some of these games took me years to finish as a kid.
Wow.
I had forgotten how few, if any, instructions and indications we were given.
No wonder some of these games took me years to finish as a kid.
For me this is the best open world game since Skyrim and ignites the same epic exploration feeling I had in the first version of WoW and Zelda Ocarina of Time.
That's because you have to figure out yourself where to go. No quest marks or quest helper. Just you and the open world.
As for hard, for me it is. The first boss took me 30-50 attempts. But it was awesome to slay it in the end.
I think you can play it somewhat as hard as you want. Nothing's stopping you from challenging areas with a higher level than usual. It just takes more time.
That's because you have to figure out yourself where to go. No quest marks or quest helper. Just you and the open world.
As for hard, for me it is. The first boss took me 30-50 attempts. But it was awesome to slay it in the end.
I think you can play it somewhat as hard as you want. Nothing's stopping you from challenging areas with a higher level than usual. It just takes more time.
Every time I think I'm convinced I might like this game, I read something like this.
> The first boss took me 30-50 attempts.
Oh. Nope. Wow.
Maybe it's a factor of 10 problem. Some people like this repetitive method of perfecting execution, but for me 3-5 attempts would be a much more ideal number.
> The first boss took me 30-50 attempts.
Oh. Nope. Wow.
Maybe it's a factor of 10 problem. Some people like this repetitive method of perfecting execution, but for me 3-5 attempts would be a much more ideal number.
I'd really encourage you to ignore that comment and give the game a shot :)
In ER you never have just one avenue of progression and this player decided to brute force the boss (which can be really fun if you want to level your own reflexes up), but that's not the only path you can take. I got stuck on the same boss for a bit, then just explored and came back when I was a bit stronger and got him on the 3rd attempt.
In ER you never have just one avenue of progression and this player decided to brute force the boss (which can be really fun if you want to level your own reflexes up), but that's not the only path you can take. I got stuck on the same boss for a bit, then just explored and came back when I was a bit stronger and got him on the 3rd attempt.
So far I've found (and heard) that if you avoid a boss until you 'finished' much of the content in a region, they can often be beating in much fewer attempts.
So far I just roamed and enjoyed myself for tens of hours, and I killed the first boss (who is apparently unusually challenging, relatively) in < 5 attempts.
I never got far in previous FromSoft games, but here the difference is that you can become quite overpowered for a boss without needing to do boring farming/grinding.
So far I just roamed and enjoyed myself for tens of hours, and I killed the first boss (who is apparently unusually challenging, relatively) in < 5 attempts.
I never got far in previous FromSoft games, but here the difference is that you can become quite overpowered for a boss without needing to do boring farming/grinding.
Sibling already said this, but you can go through most bosses with an easier time without getting extremely good at it. I've played through all 3 dks games and am not exactly good at them (ironically they are by far my favourite games), but in those games you had less opportunity to use adjuncts like summons or spells.
You might feel bad about using other means than pure combat skills (I certainly do) but the devs put those things in for a reason.
You might feel bad about using other means than pure combat skills (I certainly do) but the devs put those things in for a reason.
The level of craftsmanship they brought to this game really blew me away. Many open-world games have a feeling of emptiness or a lot of pointless content to fill in their map. Not so for Elden Ring - every area feels like they added something meaningful and interesting. Exploring is very rewarding
Exactly. Every enemy placement is relevant to the lore. Even their moves, spells, incantations tell you something about the backstory. This was what I like in the Souls series, but they had a "linear" path. To think they pulled this off in one of the most massive maps in a video game (without any DLCs!) is incredible.
I have a nit to pick here:
> Elden Ring just isn't very mechanically difficult. Most enemies telegraph their attacks with massive, seconds-long animations that give players plenty of time to react with a well-timed dodge, block, or parry.
The windup animations in Elden Ring have random lengths. This makes them unreliable for executing dodges et.al., though they do tell you how to react. The timing of the defense relies on the start of the actual attack, which is tight.
I noticed this difference because I’ve been working through Demon’s Souls lately, where the animation lengths are static.
In other words, Elden Ring relies on mechanical difficulty as much as everything else to keep the game challenging for long time fans.
> Elden Ring just isn't very mechanically difficult. Most enemies telegraph their attacks with massive, seconds-long animations that give players plenty of time to react with a well-timed dodge, block, or parry.
The windup animations in Elden Ring have random lengths. This makes them unreliable for executing dodges et.al., though they do tell you how to react. The timing of the defense relies on the start of the actual attack, which is tight.
I noticed this difference because I’ve been working through Demon’s Souls lately, where the animation lengths are static.
In other words, Elden Ring relies on mechanical difficulty as much as everything else to keep the game challenging for long time fans.
I have always been quite good at gaming, both in terms of reflexes and strategy (played and completed various Nintendo Hard games in the 80s and early 90s, played at competitive league level in various FPS games, can win games such as Civilization at rather high difficulty levels, have completed various roguelikes such as the 1.1.1 and previous versions of ADOM which were widely regarded as very hard and I could win quite reliably, etc.) but for some reason I was really, really bad at Dark Souls. I gave the first boss (Taurus Demon) a few tries and quit. I didn't even try the sequels because time is a scarce resource and I supposed I would have the same problem.
Not sure if it is because the game doesn't suit my personality (it seems to appeal to highly methodical types of players, which I guess I'm not) or I was just missing something (I remember the game having a lot of "arcane difficulty" as mentioned in the article, in the sense that it had almost no instructions -or at least I read none- and I'm not too keen on looking at wikis or guides due to spoilers as I enjoy doing my own exploration and being surprised by things, so maybe there was something essential related to weapons, leveling, etc. that I missed).
This one looks really good but I fear my experience will be similar. Although I may still give it a try, given all the hype.
Not sure if it is because the game doesn't suit my personality (it seems to appeal to highly methodical types of players, which I guess I'm not) or I was just missing something (I remember the game having a lot of "arcane difficulty" as mentioned in the article, in the sense that it had almost no instructions -or at least I read none- and I'm not too keen on looking at wikis or guides due to spoilers as I enjoy doing my own exploration and being surprised by things, so maybe there was something essential related to weapons, leveling, etc. that I missed).
This one looks really good but I fear my experience will be similar. Although I may still give it a try, given all the hype.
I hear what you say. I do think Elden Ring is different from other From Software games. It gives the player a lot of ways to mitigate difficulty. Giving the player more flexibility in what kind of challenge to be presented with.
It's also a bit hard to explain the part that this excels at. I'm trying to find the right words to explain it without too much hyperbole. I honestly think that the scale of this game, would have been broken up into at least 3 games, by many other companies. I'm 70 hours in, and I've roughly found as many "graces", which are spread out throughout the world. So, I'm still finding myself in new areas, new environments, in much awe of the world. And, I'm enjoying all of it.
Now, I have played other souls games. But, perhaps this is the experience that you might relate to. Those games where much, much, more "ok, this is the linear path. Beat hard boss 1.". Repeat for boss 2, etc. Elden Ring is to a much larger extent: "explore the world". Take it in, and wonder why it is the way it is. Most things actually make sense, and it tells a subtle story I'm so grateful for. From Software hasn't followed the regular trend of "we worked on this, and refuse to let the player miss it". It has huge areas that the game almost wants you to miss, because it genuinely rewards curiosity. It is the best open world I've played in, and I'm just... it's truly a masterpiece.
It's also a bit hard to explain the part that this excels at. I'm trying to find the right words to explain it without too much hyperbole. I honestly think that the scale of this game, would have been broken up into at least 3 games, by many other companies. I'm 70 hours in, and I've roughly found as many "graces", which are spread out throughout the world. So, I'm still finding myself in new areas, new environments, in much awe of the world. And, I'm enjoying all of it.
Now, I have played other souls games. But, perhaps this is the experience that you might relate to. Those games where much, much, more "ok, this is the linear path. Beat hard boss 1.". Repeat for boss 2, etc. Elden Ring is to a much larger extent: "explore the world". Take it in, and wonder why it is the way it is. Most things actually make sense, and it tells a subtle story I'm so grateful for. From Software hasn't followed the regular trend of "we worked on this, and refuse to let the player miss it". It has huge areas that the game almost wants you to miss, because it genuinely rewards curiosity. It is the best open world I've played in, and I'm just... it's truly a masterpiece.
The games are terrible at difficulty curves. They could make a difficulty ramp with more simple bosses that teach one specific core mechanic at a time, but they don't want to do that. Elden Ring is no different in this regard.
The earlier games were also pretty janky and had unnatural hitboxes. Elden Ring is a stellar improvement in this case.
It also takes advantage of your lizard brain's reaction to hit the roll button as soon as you see an animation start, but that's often a bad idea in these games (definitely more so in Elden Ring).
There's big themes of precise timing and memorizing the moves over raw reflexes, although enemies can do mix-ups and combo options. They will stop the combo early if you're out of range, but if you try to go within range thinking the combo has ended, another attack comes out.
I suspect if you were doing competitive shooters that's where it doesn't match up well. You can't simply act faster to forgo learning the boss moveset. This is also why they say dying is part of the genre. Unless you sit and watch a boss video before-hand, the price of admission to see the boss moveset and know when you can attack safely is dying.
The earlier games were also pretty janky and had unnatural hitboxes. Elden Ring is a stellar improvement in this case.
It also takes advantage of your lizard brain's reaction to hit the roll button as soon as you see an animation start, but that's often a bad idea in these games (definitely more so in Elden Ring).
There's big themes of precise timing and memorizing the moves over raw reflexes, although enemies can do mix-ups and combo options. They will stop the combo early if you're out of range, but if you try to go within range thinking the combo has ended, another attack comes out.
I suspect if you were doing competitive shooters that's where it doesn't match up well. You can't simply act faster to forgo learning the boss moveset. This is also why they say dying is part of the genre. Unless you sit and watch a boss video before-hand, the price of admission to see the boss moveset and know when you can attack safely is dying.
I guess you're good at games with good, unrestricted movement like mario, contra, megaman. Unlike them, afaik souls game (I only play monster hunter, which many says is similar mechanic wise) give some restriction with the movement and harsh penalty for being impatient.
It's a timing game, not a reaction / apm game, which IIRC isn't the same with what you usually play.
It's a timing game, not a reaction / apm game, which IIRC isn't the same with what you usually play.
There's no animation cancelling at all and the animation queue can sometimes be obnoxiously long. But that's part of the point. Most Button presses you have to commit to, requiring you to be more aware of exactly what your enemies are doing.
I watched a video recently where someone explained that this difference is exactly what makes Dark Souls special, unusual, and interesting: mechanically it's not a hard game, the challenge is in practice/familiarity, patience, and timing.
Also there are plenty of guides without spoilers, the player community seems to value not giving up secrets.
Also there are plenty of guides without spoilers, the player community seems to value not giving up secrets.
It is mechanically a hard game. DS1 has some truly awful hitboxes, provided virtually no actual in-game explanation of rather important mechanics surrounding needing certain kinds of weapons in the tomb of the giants, entire stats that basically don't work so you can accidentally stick all of your souls into a wasted build, and more.
The primary system for making it easier (summoning phantoms) also encourages the community to send people to just gank you and waste your time.
"All you need is patience" is not true. There is no way in hell my dad would make it through DS1 even though he is retired and doesn't have anything to do all day.
The primary system for making it easier (summoning phantoms) also encourages the community to send people to just gank you and waste your time.
"All you need is patience" is not true. There is no way in hell my dad would make it through DS1 even though he is retired and doesn't have anything to do all day.
If you only follow the main quest, you're going to get stuck at some point unless you follow online guides to get overpowered early. This forces the player to explore the map, fight some manageable bosses and come back. Only then the player will find how massive the map really is. I'm 70 hours into the game, and am still finding new areas in Limgrave (the area where you start the game). And like all FromSoftware games, the side quests are very interesting, and lets you discover more of both the map and the lore.
This game is really a masterpiece.
Also, being a mage (astrologer) is definitely not easier than the other classes, unless you find powerful spells and staffs early in the game by chance or through guides. Any class could be made easy using this method.
This game is really a masterpiece.
Also, being a mage (astrologer) is definitely not easier than the other classes, unless you find powerful spells and staffs early in the game by chance or through guides. Any class could be made easy using this method.
I tried one of those. My objection was not that they are hard even though they are, I gave up on the first boss.
My primary objection was that they are clunky. I had no pleasure at all in controlling the character even when I wasn't pummeled to death by a thing the size of half of my screen. So if I don't feel good even when unobstructed than why bother in conquering obstructions.
My primary objection was that they are clunky. I had no pleasure at all in controlling the character even when I wasn't pummeled to death by a thing the size of half of my screen. So if I don't feel good even when unobstructed than why bother in conquering obstructions.
Xqc (video game streamer) playing elden ring is one the funniest livestream you will find https://yewtu.be/watch?v=bS_OR-8xQfQ
I almost never watch game streams as I don't find watching other players playing a game fun, but the domain kind of jumped out at me. Why not just link to regular YouTube instead of something called "yewtube"?
Here is the original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS_OR-8xQfQ
Here is the original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS_OR-8xQfQ
It's an https://github.com/iv-org/invidious instance, the video is still pulled from youtube.
I dislike linking the official youtube domain. It is filled with trackers, ads, requires running various scripts, has bad privacy policy etc.
'yewtube' is one of the invidious instances. Invidious is an youtube proxy service through which a user can watch youtube videos without touching official youtube.
'yewtube' is one of the invidious instances. Invidious is an youtube proxy service through which a user can watch youtube videos without touching official youtube.
The game is a masterpiece
It is. In its genre, I'm pretty sure it's now the best game of all time.
I'll probably die far more then in the previous games as things are going. And this is a great thing. This is now my favorite game of all time.
I’ve never found the Dark Souls type games interesting at all. But I’ve never tried one. Is it worth a try even if you don’t feel interested at all?
It might be worth a try. I don't really consider myself a gamer anymore - I hadn't really been into a single-player game since I was a kid before I tried Dark Souls Remastered a couple of years ago. I had bought at least a dozen games over the years but never played any more than a few times. Dark Souls got me hooked completely, I ended up playing through the game 3-4 times which I had never done with any game even as a kid.
The online reviews are all nothing but positive but I played this for 3 hours and found it pretty bad. It superficially looks like Skyrim which I really like but really it’s just a game of memorising very specific timings for pressing a button. Combined with basically no direction from the game so you spend ages walking around wondering what you are meant to be doing.
I was like that until I played Bloodborne and just bashed my head against the wall and grinded through the first boss (who was extremely difficult). Afterwards the game "clicks," and you get used to the difficulty. Then it becomes a rewarding experience.
I consider the original Dark Souls as one of the best video games ever made (I quit the first time I played it on Ps3). I played it again after playing Bloodborne, DS2, and DS3. And it aged very well. Sure, some parts are clunky, and it is missing some quality of life features found in later games. But it's a classic.
I consider the original Dark Souls as one of the best video games ever made (I quit the first time I played it on Ps3). I played it again after playing Bloodborne, DS2, and DS3. And it aged very well. Sure, some parts are clunky, and it is missing some quality of life features found in later games. But it's a classic.
I haven't either and I've played Dark Souls. A cursory search on YT will yield tons of results and inform you best. Watching someone try and fail to beat a boss 20 tries later is not conducive to wanting to play it, personally. It simply comes across as masochistic and a waste of time.
OTOH, a friend of mine loves the series and Bloodborne. The way he explains it, the satisfaction of finally conquering a boss after so many trial and error runs is unmatchable. In a sense, it's similar to difficult games (platformers for me) of the 80s and 90s, or some old school shooters. A slow and steady build-up of skills culminating in mastery. I'd rather do that with something else than videogames.
My take is that I've gotten lazier over time, wanting to enjoy a game for its escapism and relative challenge it provides, but not enough investment that it becomes a chore.
OTOH, a friend of mine loves the series and Bloodborne. The way he explains it, the satisfaction of finally conquering a boss after so many trial and error runs is unmatchable. In a sense, it's similar to difficult games (platformers for me) of the 80s and 90s, or some old school shooters. A slow and steady build-up of skills culminating in mastery. I'd rather do that with something else than videogames.
My take is that I've gotten lazier over time, wanting to enjoy a game for its escapism and relative challenge it provides, but not enough investment that it becomes a chore.
It's not masochistic, it's more like a challenge. I never played souls game, but monster hunter. The moment you know how the game works and what specific strategy works for specific monsters feels really2 fulfilling.
I still remember the moment which I understand how to land a charged greatsword attack to yian kut ku. It's an eye opener.
But yes it's not the game for everyone. It's hard.
I still remember the moment which I understand how to land a charged greatsword attack to yian kut ku. It's an eye opener.
But yes it's not the game for everyone. It's hard.
the cool thing about ER is you aren’t required to throw yourself at any challenge at any time. you can always explore elsewhere and potentially get stronger before returning. Overleveling is a real possibility in this game.
I wasn't interested until I tried it, because I didn't get it until I experienced it for myself.
What's the appeal of Elden Ring? I haven't played it because it looks very similar to Dark Souls. Does it have a very good story?
To me it’s the next step forward after Breath of the Wild. It’s similar in many ways but leans more towards D&D than puzzles. The bosses are more varied and designed exceptionally well.
It’s just one of the best crafted games ever imo.
It’s just one of the best crafted games ever imo.
The combat is simpler overall, but weapon choice massively impacts playstyle thus giving it more variety. Whereas breath of the wild encouraged you to try new weapons by breaking them after use, elden ring (like all "soulsborne" games, encourages you to try its arsenal of weapons by simply showering you with them at every possible opportunity.
Even weapons in the same "class" such as shorts words can have different movesets, lengths, and weight which makes it completely possible that you may prefer to play with the starting weapon (and armor if you're inclined) the game gives you for the entire game. This type of play is viable.
In addition to being able to upgrade any weapon, you can also attach special abilities to them (this one let's me do a charge! That one makes me flip over attacks and slam my sword! The other one let's me make a magical flame!).
So in the end, while the base system is less complicated than breath of the wild's combat, the customization makes it "wider."
Don't let cries of "it's difficult!" enter into your judgment. Every enemy, especially bosses, are just Megaman battles where you memorize patterns. Due to the rpg elements and how you customize your character, you can ignore entire boss mechanics all the way to the end if you so choose. The difficulty people complain about likely comes from your lack of movement (compared to spiritual ancestor ninja gaiden black) and the fact that there is a noticeable delay between commands and execution coupled with a command queue: if you press dodge you will note your character is not immediately dodging so you press it again: your character then dodges twice.
In addition to being able to upgrade any weapon, you can also attach special abilities to them (this one let's me do a charge! That one makes me flip over attacks and slam my sword! The other one let's me make a magical flame!).
So in the end, while the base system is less complicated than breath of the wild's combat, the customization makes it "wider."
Don't let cries of "it's difficult!" enter into your judgment. Every enemy, especially bosses, are just Megaman battles where you memorize patterns. Due to the rpg elements and how you customize your character, you can ignore entire boss mechanics all the way to the end if you so choose. The difficulty people complain about likely comes from your lack of movement (compared to spiritual ancestor ninja gaiden black) and the fact that there is a noticeable delay between commands and execution coupled with a command queue: if you press dodge you will note your character is not immediately dodging so you press it again: your character then dodges twice.
It is a Dark Souls, that's the whole appeal. And as a Dark Souls game, the story is inscrutable.
It's essentially Dark Souls with a lot of QoL improvements and much larger. Story is relatively interesting, though still very fill-in-the-gaps-yourself.
Its dark souls in skyrim
Can the game be enjoyed in small doses (1-2 hrs)? As I’ve gotten older, I simply don’t have the time for long gaming sessions.
How are people finding it on PC? I’ve heard reports of issues with stuttering which is putting me off purchasing it for now.
It looks like Valve has mostly solved it (at least on Linux) with Steamplay by not using Windows' DX12 API.
I haven't played on Windows, but it runs great after the shader pre-cache update.
I haven't played on Windows, but it runs great after the shader pre-cache update.
I was worried about the same thing but happy to report that it's been pretty stable for me. The only stutters I've seen have been straight after alt+tabbing back into the game. I've had one crash in about 50 hours.
I'm running Win10 on an i5-12600kf and 2080 super.
I'm running Win10 on an i5-12600kf and 2080 super.
There is a shader cache issue present on Windows that seems to be completely fixed by the latest Proton version on Linux.
No stutter or fps hitches for me in Manjaro with a Vega 56
No stutter or fps hitches for me in Manjaro with a Vega 56