A Swedish skier was basically frozen, but lived (2016)(atlasobscura.com)
atlasobscura.com
A Swedish skier was basically frozen, but lived (2016)
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-woman-who-survived-the-lowest-body-temperature-ever
135 comments
Wow. Congratulations on getting through that, all of you. That must have been harrowing. One of my children was born with a slight problem: he stopped breathing every couple of minutes and then turned blue and was quite far on the way out before we caught it the first time. Apparently there is some kind of O2 sensing mechanism that is supposed to be activated during delivery or immediately after causing the breathing reflex and it wasn't. It took 12 days to normalize, with lots of excursions, oxygen alarms and one very close call. All that time he spent in a neonatal ICU unit and I'm not exaggerating that it was the longest two weeks of my life. He's 12 now and like yours you'd never know.
What you and yours have gone through makes all that pale in comparison, I can't even begin to imagine what it must have been like. And then to see him now as a four year old perfectly normal kid, that must be really special.
What you and yours have gone through makes all that pale in comparison, I can't even begin to imagine what it must have been like. And then to see him now as a four year old perfectly normal kid, that must be really special.
Our daughter was born a month premature, but was absolutely normal. Yet the hospital insisted on nicu for the first night. That was already too harrowing for us first time parents. Can't imagine what you guys went through (Jacques, Noe) and very glad in the end everything worked out. Being used to posts/replies from Jacques (and others) on tech subjects I forget that everyone here is still human with human problems. Thank you for sharing and injecting a dose of humanity and empathy in me.
The things I have seen in that nicu will stay with me for the rest of my life, and I'm not talking about what happened to us and our son but to the other people there. It didn't take all that long to figure out that we were the lucky ones.
Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia_therapy_for_neonat...
What a traumatic experience. I cannot even imagine. Gives me chills
Our third had a pretty solid cord wrap going around her neck and being the third I knew it was not normal. Thankfully the nurse was skilled and it had not been depriving her of too much for very long. That was scary enough.
I am so happy for you that your son survived being born still. Wow.
Our third had a pretty solid cord wrap going around her neck and being the third I knew it was not normal. Thankfully the nurse was skilled and it had not been depriving her of too much for very long. That was scary enough.
I am so happy for you that your son survived being born still. Wow.
It’s standard treatment now for all comatose patients rescuscitated after cardiac arrest
Though in recent years it has evolved to more an avoidance of fever than true hypothermia (“targeted temperature management”)
There’s lots of science in this area, and not just anecdote. The knowledge of this (which is not at all esoteric) is why the team in Norway thought there was a chance at reviving her
Though in recent years it has evolved to more an avoidance of fever than true hypothermia (“targeted temperature management”)
There’s lots of science in this area, and not just anecdote. The knowledge of this (which is not at all esoteric) is why the team in Norway thought there was a chance at reviving her
> hypothermia (to 34° C)
Is there a typo here?
Is there a typo here?
No. Regular body temperature is around 37°C. Hypothermia starts at around 35°C.
Sounds like the ancients had similar thoughts as “We will not declare her dead until she is warm and dead.”:
https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0411.htm
From The Zend Avesta, Part I - FARGARD V.
10 (34). O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! If the summer is past and the winter has come, what shall the worshippers of Mazda do?
Ahura Mazda answered: 'In every house? in every borough, they shall raise three small houses for the dead.'
11 (37). O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! How large shall be those houses for the dead?
Ahura Mazda answered: ‘Large enough not to strike the skull, or the feet, or the hands of the man, if he should stand erect, and hold out his feet, and stretch out his hands: such shall be, according to the law, the houses for the dead.
12 (41). ‘And they shall let the lifeless body lie there, for two nights, or for three nights, or a month long, until the birds-begin to fly, the plants to grow, the floods to flow, and the wind to dry up the waters from off the earth.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0411.htm
From The Zend Avesta, Part I - FARGARD V.
10 (34). O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! If the summer is past and the winter has come, what shall the worshippers of Mazda do?
Ahura Mazda answered: 'In every house? in every borough, they shall raise three small houses for the dead.'
11 (37). O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! How large shall be those houses for the dead?
Ahura Mazda answered: ‘Large enough not to strike the skull, or the feet, or the hands of the man, if he should stand erect, and hold out his feet, and stretch out his hands: such shall be, according to the law, the houses for the dead.
12 (41). ‘And they shall let the lifeless body lie there, for two nights, or for three nights, or a month long, until the birds-begin to fly, the plants to grow, the floods to flow, and the wind to dry up the waters from off the earth.
The traditional wake is probably rooted in watching the "dead" body for a few days to see if it wakes up before burying them. There can be myriad things that make someone seem dead temporarily, such as consuming improperly prepared fish (I think puffer fish?).
> The traditional wake is probably rooted in watching the "dead" body for a few days to see if it wakes up before burying them
As noted elsewhere, according to wikipedia this is a misconception. Quote: "While the modern usage of the verb wake is 'become or stay alert', a wake for the dead harks back to the vigil, 'watch' or 'guard' of earlier times. It is a misconception that people at a wake are waiting in case the deceased should 'wake up'.", source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(ceremony) .
As noted elsewhere, according to wikipedia this is a misconception. Quote: "While the modern usage of the verb wake is 'become or stay alert', a wake for the dead harks back to the vigil, 'watch' or 'guard' of earlier times. It is a misconception that people at a wake are waiting in case the deceased should 'wake up'.", source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(ceremony) .
Thank you. I missed that when I checked Wikipedia earlier.
Wikipedia is known to have inaccuracies at times and it's surprisingly hard to find good sources on this subject. FWIW, Snopes disagrees in this fascinating piece about known cases of people being buried alive:
The practice of ‘waking’ the dead (having someone sit with the deceased from the time of death until burial in case he ‘wakes up’) began out of this concern.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/just-dying-to-get-out/
Wikipedia is known to have inaccuracies at times and it's surprisingly hard to find good sources on this subject. FWIW, Snopes disagrees in this fascinating piece about known cases of people being buried alive:
The practice of ‘waking’ the dead (having someone sit with the deceased from the time of death until burial in case he ‘wakes up’) began out of this concern.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/just-dying-to-get-out/
Interesting, I'd never heard this and can't seem to find a reference to it.
Btw, in Jewish tradition, burial should happen as soon as possible, usually the same day or the day after.
Btw, in Jewish tradition, burial should happen as soon as possible, usually the same day or the day after.
I'm not entirely sure where I got the idea. It's perhaps somewhat speculative on my part based in part on the word used for such things.
Why would people call the viewing of the body a wake if they weren't hoping the person would awaken? I know I've discussed it with people and I know I've read of incidents where someone was thought to be dead and wasn't.
One story was about a child that was thought to be dead during an epidemic and the family was unable to find a box big enough to bury him. They bent his legs up sideways to fit him in the too short box they had.
On the one hand, he lived because they only bent his legs up (instead of cutting them off to make him fit). On the other hand, he never walked right because of it. He was permanently maimed.
The Bible also has a passage where Jesus says "Why do you weep? She isn't dead. She only sleeps." And he tells the girl to arise and she opens her eyes.
So we have records of such incidents going back at least 2000 years. And we have a tradition of viewing the body before burying it.
It seems likely to me these things are not unrelated though I'm not sure we really have anything that explicitly says "The historical origin of the practice is rooted in this."
So to be clear this is possibly opinion not something I learned in some history class or other.
Why would people call the viewing of the body a wake if they weren't hoping the person would awaken? I know I've discussed it with people and I know I've read of incidents where someone was thought to be dead and wasn't.
One story was about a child that was thought to be dead during an epidemic and the family was unable to find a box big enough to bury him. They bent his legs up sideways to fit him in the too short box they had.
On the one hand, he lived because they only bent his legs up (instead of cutting them off to make him fit). On the other hand, he never walked right because of it. He was permanently maimed.
The Bible also has a passage where Jesus says "Why do you weep? She isn't dead. She only sleeps." And he tells the girl to arise and she opens her eyes.
So we have records of such incidents going back at least 2000 years. And we have a tradition of viewing the body before burying it.
It seems likely to me these things are not unrelated though I'm not sure we really have anything that explicitly says "The historical origin of the practice is rooted in this."
So to be clear this is possibly opinion not something I learned in some history class or other.
> Why would people call the viewing of the body a wake if they weren't hoping the person would awaken?
Wikipedia says: "While the modern usage of the verb wake is 'become or stay alert', a wake for the dead harks back to the vigil, 'watch' or 'guard' of earlier times. It is a misconception that people at a wake are waiting in case the deceased should 'wake up'."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(ceremony)
Wikipedia says: "While the modern usage of the verb wake is 'become or stay alert', a wake for the dead harks back to the vigil, 'watch' or 'guard' of earlier times. It is a misconception that people at a wake are waiting in case the deceased should 'wake up'."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wake_(ceremony)
Sounds like you’re referring to a pretty specific brand of “the ancients” and I’m guessing it’s not the ones from Stargate. Unfortunately when someone refers to “the ancients” in this way, my brain automatically assumes they are into some wacky new age stuff.
Specifically I was referring to the Parsis and their Zoroastrian teachings. The introduction to the quoted book has put it in those words:
https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0402.htm#page_xi
The Zend-Avesta is the sacred book of the Parsis, that is to say, of the few remaining followers of that religion which feigned over Persia at the time when the second successor of Mohammed overthrew the Sassanian dynasty [At the battle of Nihâvand (642 A.C.)], and which has been called Dualism, or Mazdeism, or Magism, or Zoroastrianism, or Fire-worship, according as its main tenet, or its supreme God [Ahura Mazda], or its priests, or its supposed founder, or its apparent object of worship has been most kept in view.
> Indeed, they are not the Stargate ancients. But in the same book they write about some other kind of "golden ring" with a most interesting coldness related story:
https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0408.htm
7 (17) 2. Then I, Ahura Mazda, brought two implements unto him: a golden ring and a poniard inlaid with gold. Behold, here Yima bears the royal sway!
8 (20). Thus, under the sway of Yima, three hundred winters passed away, and the earth was replenished with flocks and herds, with men and dogs and birds and with red blazing fires, and there was no more room for flocks, herds, and men.
9. Then I warned the fair Yima, saying: 'O fair Yima, son of Vîvanghat, the earth has become full of flocks and herds, of men and dogs and birds and of red blazing fires, and there is no more room for flocks, herds, and men.'
10. Then Yima stepped forward, towards the luminous space, southwards, to meet the sun, and (afterwards) he pressed the earth with the golden ring, and bored it with the poniard, speaking thus:
'O Spenta Ârmaiti, kindly open asunder and stretch thyself afar, to bear flocks and herds and men.'
11. And Yima made the earth grow larger by one-third than it was before, and there came flocks and herds and men, at his will and wish, as many as he wished.
12 (23). Thus, under the sway of Yima, six hundred winters passed away, and the earth was replenished with flocks and herds, with men and dogs and birds and with red blazing fires, and there was no more room for flocks, herds, and men.
> this process of using the golden ring is used multiple times, with a total of 1800 winters passing
> but it is not over:
22 (46). And Ahura Mazda spake unto Yima, saying:
'O fair Yima, son of Vîvanghat! Upon the material world the fatal winters are going to fall, that shall bring the fierce, foul frost; upon the material world the fatal winters are going to fall, that shall make snow-flakes fall thick, even an aredvî deep on the highest tops of mountains.
23 (52). And all the three sorts of beasts shall perish, those that live in the wilderness, and those that live on the tops of the mountains, and those that live in the bosom of the dale, under the shelter of stables.
24 (57). Before that winter, those fields would bear plenty of grass for cattle: now with floods that stream, with snows that melt, it will seem a happy land in the world, the land wherein footprints even of sheep may still be seen.
25 (61). Therefore make thee a Vara, long as a riding-ground on every side of the square, and thither bring the seeds of sheep and oxen, of men, of dogs, of birds, and of red blazing fires. Therefore make thee a Vara, long as a riding-ground on every side of the square, to be an abode for men; a Vara, long. as a riding-ground on every side of the square, to be a fold for flocks.
26 (65). There thou shalt make waters flow in a bed a hâthra long; there thou shalt settle birds, by the ever-green banks that bear never-failing food. There thou shalt establish dwelling places, consisting of a house with a balcony, a courtyard, and a gallery.
27 (70). Thither thou shalt bring the seeds of men and women, of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth; thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of cattle, of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth.
28 (74). Thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of tree, of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth; thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of fruit, the fullest of food and sweetest of odour. All those seeds shalt thou bring, two of ever), kind, to be kept inexhaustible there, so long as those men shall stay in the Vara.
29 (80). There shall be no humpbacked, none bulged forward there; no impotent, no lunatic; no poverty, no lying; no meanness, no jealousy; no decayed tooth, no leprous to be confined, nor any of the brands wherewith Angra Mainyu stamps the bodies of mortals.
30 (87). In the largest part of the place thou shalt make nine streets, six in the middle part, three in the smallest. To the streets of the largest part thou shalt bring a thousand seeds of men and women; to the streets of the middle part, six hundred; to the streets of the smallest part, three hundred. That Vara thou shalt seal up with the golden ring, and thou shalt make a door, and a window self-shining within.'
> I don't know that that golden ring represents, maybe the sun?
https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0402.htm#page_xi
The Zend-Avesta is the sacred book of the Parsis, that is to say, of the few remaining followers of that religion which feigned over Persia at the time when the second successor of Mohammed overthrew the Sassanian dynasty [At the battle of Nihâvand (642 A.C.)], and which has been called Dualism, or Mazdeism, or Magism, or Zoroastrianism, or Fire-worship, according as its main tenet, or its supreme God [Ahura Mazda], or its priests, or its supposed founder, or its apparent object of worship has been most kept in view.
> Indeed, they are not the Stargate ancients. But in the same book they write about some other kind of "golden ring" with a most interesting coldness related story:
https://www.sacred-texts.com/zor/sbe04/sbe0408.htm
7 (17) 2. Then I, Ahura Mazda, brought two implements unto him: a golden ring and a poniard inlaid with gold. Behold, here Yima bears the royal sway!
8 (20). Thus, under the sway of Yima, three hundred winters passed away, and the earth was replenished with flocks and herds, with men and dogs and birds and with red blazing fires, and there was no more room for flocks, herds, and men.
9. Then I warned the fair Yima, saying: 'O fair Yima, son of Vîvanghat, the earth has become full of flocks and herds, of men and dogs and birds and of red blazing fires, and there is no more room for flocks, herds, and men.'
10. Then Yima stepped forward, towards the luminous space, southwards, to meet the sun, and (afterwards) he pressed the earth with the golden ring, and bored it with the poniard, speaking thus:
'O Spenta Ârmaiti, kindly open asunder and stretch thyself afar, to bear flocks and herds and men.'
11. And Yima made the earth grow larger by one-third than it was before, and there came flocks and herds and men, at his will and wish, as many as he wished.
12 (23). Thus, under the sway of Yima, six hundred winters passed away, and the earth was replenished with flocks and herds, with men and dogs and birds and with red blazing fires, and there was no more room for flocks, herds, and men.
> this process of using the golden ring is used multiple times, with a total of 1800 winters passing
> but it is not over:
22 (46). And Ahura Mazda spake unto Yima, saying:
'O fair Yima, son of Vîvanghat! Upon the material world the fatal winters are going to fall, that shall bring the fierce, foul frost; upon the material world the fatal winters are going to fall, that shall make snow-flakes fall thick, even an aredvî deep on the highest tops of mountains.
23 (52). And all the three sorts of beasts shall perish, those that live in the wilderness, and those that live on the tops of the mountains, and those that live in the bosom of the dale, under the shelter of stables.
24 (57). Before that winter, those fields would bear plenty of grass for cattle: now with floods that stream, with snows that melt, it will seem a happy land in the world, the land wherein footprints even of sheep may still be seen.
25 (61). Therefore make thee a Vara, long as a riding-ground on every side of the square, and thither bring the seeds of sheep and oxen, of men, of dogs, of birds, and of red blazing fires. Therefore make thee a Vara, long as a riding-ground on every side of the square, to be an abode for men; a Vara, long. as a riding-ground on every side of the square, to be a fold for flocks.
26 (65). There thou shalt make waters flow in a bed a hâthra long; there thou shalt settle birds, by the ever-green banks that bear never-failing food. There thou shalt establish dwelling places, consisting of a house with a balcony, a courtyard, and a gallery.
27 (70). Thither thou shalt bring the seeds of men and women, of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth; thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of cattle, of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth.
28 (74). Thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of tree, of the greatest, best, and finest kinds on this earth; thither thou shalt bring the seeds of every kind of fruit, the fullest of food and sweetest of odour. All those seeds shalt thou bring, two of ever), kind, to be kept inexhaustible there, so long as those men shall stay in the Vara.
29 (80). There shall be no humpbacked, none bulged forward there; no impotent, no lunatic; no poverty, no lying; no meanness, no jealousy; no decayed tooth, no leprous to be confined, nor any of the brands wherewith Angra Mainyu stamps the bodies of mortals.
30 (87). In the largest part of the place thou shalt make nine streets, six in the middle part, three in the smallest. To the streets of the largest part thou shalt bring a thousand seeds of men and women; to the streets of the middle part, six hundred; to the streets of the smallest part, three hundred. That Vara thou shalt seal up with the golden ring, and thou shalt make a door, and a window self-shining within.'
> I don't know that that golden ring represents, maybe the sun?
I fail to see the necessity of anything you have posted from this website of yours.
In a discussion about hypothermia and brain damage, these zoroastrian religious ramblings are only relevant to one of the two.
In a discussion about hypothermia and brain damage, these zoroastrian religious ramblings are only relevant to one of the two.
Not OP but if you have a question please refrain from throwing insults while asking. HN's rules are relevant here:
> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names.
To answer your question:
Their original comment was noting that the idea of hypothermia allowing individuals to survive after appearing dead can be seen as far back as old religious texts.
A question was asked about what religion it was and whether it was actually instead a reference to a Sci-fi series (Stargate).
In response they explained that it's from Zoroastrian texts (which is one of the sets of religions texts Stargate draws a lot from). They went on to show a story from said texts that happened to be very similar to another well known fantasy work (Lord of the Rings). LoTR unlike Stargate doesn't explicitly draw from Zoroastrian texts but it's been speculated that Tolkien drew inspiration from Zoroastrianism on top of the other religious texts that Tolkien drew inspiration from.
Does this help explain the reason the comments' relation to the thread here?
> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names.
To answer your question:
Their original comment was noting that the idea of hypothermia allowing individuals to survive after appearing dead can be seen as far back as old religious texts.
A question was asked about what religion it was and whether it was actually instead a reference to a Sci-fi series (Stargate).
In response they explained that it's from Zoroastrian texts (which is one of the sets of religions texts Stargate draws a lot from). They went on to show a story from said texts that happened to be very similar to another well known fantasy work (Lord of the Rings). LoTR unlike Stargate doesn't explicitly draw from Zoroastrian texts but it's been speculated that Tolkien drew inspiration from Zoroastrianism on top of the other religious texts that Tolkien drew inspiration from.
Does this help explain the reason the comments' relation to the thread here?
> the ancients had similar thoughts as “We will not declare her dead until she is warm and dead.”
I mean, they lived in the aftermath of an ice age...
I mean, they lived in the aftermath of an ice age...
See also Timothy Lancaster, a British Airways pilot who survived after an explosive decompression propelled his body out through the windscreen into -17°C conditions at 700km/h at FL170. He was pinned against the fuselage for 20 minutes with his feet hooked on the control column, while the first officer made an emergency descent and landed the plane.
Lancaster made a full recovery, and continued his career as a commercial pilot for nearly 30 years following the incident.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_5390
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pilot-sucked-airplane/
Lancaster made a full recovery, and continued his career as a commercial pilot for nearly 30 years following the incident.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_5390
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pilot-sucked-airplane/
There is also an extreme accident in Sweden where a couple of kids in a canoe survived (incidentially with Norwegian emergency care).
One of them found with his face under the water at 14C body temperature surviving cardiac arrest for 6 hours.
The extreme low body temperatures seems to be able to allow for surviving under extreme conditions, even without breathing for several hours.
(a bit too fancy) article in swedish. https://mirakletiannsjon.story.aftonbladet.se/
(google translate to english "Canadian" is a special type of canoe) https://mirakletiannsjon-story-aftonbladet-se.translate.goog...
One of them found with his face under the water at 14C body temperature surviving cardiac arrest for 6 hours.
The extreme low body temperatures seems to be able to allow for surviving under extreme conditions, even without breathing for several hours.
(a bit too fancy) article in swedish. https://mirakletiannsjon.story.aftonbladet.se/
(google translate to english "Canadian" is a special type of canoe) https://mirakletiannsjon-story-aftonbladet-se.translate.goog...
Bit of relevant trivia - in a number of languages other than English, "canoe" means both the style of boat we call a canoe in English and the thing we call a kayak. To distinguish the two, the one we call simply a "canoe" is called in those languages a "Canadian canoe" or "Canadian" for short.
This is also broadly true in Ireland, (and I presume the UK). Among non-canoeists, 'canoe' can refer to a canoe or kayak, and people refer to "Canadian canoes" when they want to specify an open legged canoe.
(Although sit on top kayaks are usually called as such, confusingly).
(Although sit on top kayaks are usually called as such, confusingly).
My father is Swedish and used to have a Canadian canoe. He would refer to the canoe by its name most of the time but sometimes he and my grandfather would refer to it as “kanadensaren” (“the Canadian” in Swedish), and I never knew why until now. Thank you!
I've heard of a saying in the medical community for cases like this - you're not dead until you're warm and dead.
> ...even without breathing for several hours.
Isn't brain damage inevitable after just a few minutes?
Isn't brain damage inevitable after just a few minutes?
This is the point.
No it is not if you combine it with low body temperature. It is pretty amazing when you read about it.
I think also some surgeons used this method, icing people before surgery. Not sure it is used anymore though since it may be a bit difficult to control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_hypothermic_circulatory_a...
(IIRC this kid suffered some brain damage though, but not severe enough to stopping him to continue going to school)
No it is not if you combine it with low body temperature. It is pretty amazing when you read about it.
I think also some surgeons used this method, icing people before surgery. Not sure it is used anymore though since it may be a bit difficult to control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_hypothermic_circulatory_a...
(IIRC this kid suffered some brain damage though, but not severe enough to stopping him to continue going to school)
Protective hypothermia is still used in brain and heart surgery, or with certain types of injuries. It isn't as extreme as the method that the Wikipedia article is about, though. Protective hypothermia only drops body temperatures by a few degrees F.
>only drops body temperatures by a few degrees F
This is the most amazing thing ever because it may point to a metabolic cause instead of a physical one, like a phase change or w/e (I mean, metabolism is physics in the end but you get the point).
And if it turns out to be metabolic, drugs could be made to induce it, in principle.
This is the most amazing thing ever because it may point to a metabolic cause instead of a physical one, like a phase change or w/e (I mean, metabolism is physics in the end but you get the point).
And if it turns out to be metabolic, drugs could be made to induce it, in principle.
Metabolic processes are dependent on temperature.
Think of yeast cells. They barely survive at 10 °C, but they do get along in water and sugar, slowly. If you bring them up to their ideal temperature with a lot of food, they go into explosive growth and the solution starts aggressively bubbling. It's orders of magnitude more metabolic activity when it's warm. If you cool human cells down their metabolism and oxygen demands slow down in the same way.
(Not coincidentally, yeast's happy temperature is not too different from normal human body temperature. A lot of biochemical processes go their fastest around ~35 °C or so without the involved molecules breaking down, and the mammalian trick was to keep all our cells at a near-ideal point all the time. We're aggressively bubbling solutions of CO2 all the time, normally.)
Think of yeast cells. They barely survive at 10 °C, but they do get along in water and sugar, slowly. If you bring them up to their ideal temperature with a lot of food, they go into explosive growth and the solution starts aggressively bubbling. It's orders of magnitude more metabolic activity when it's warm. If you cool human cells down their metabolism and oxygen demands slow down in the same way.
(Not coincidentally, yeast's happy temperature is not too different from normal human body temperature. A lot of biochemical processes go their fastest around ~35 °C or so without the involved molecules breaking down, and the mammalian trick was to keep all our cells at a near-ideal point all the time. We're aggressively bubbling solutions of CO2 all the time, normally.)
Not if the brain is cool enough, but don't try this at home.
IIRC the trick is to restore oxygenation and circulation before restoring the temperature level.
IIRC the trick is to restore oxygenation and circulation before restoring the temperature level.
In the end it’s no different from preserving groceries by putting them into the fridge. Typically chemical reactions happen slower in lower temperatures, often exponentially slower. Damage can only occur at a rate constrained by chemistry.
I live in Narvik, and I can't understand why they name the place of the accident Kjolen. What I can gather from archived news articles she was skiing in a very well known place called Mørkhola, or "the backside".
I have not heard of any Kjolen Mountains, and as part of a local SAR team, I think I should've known about it if it existed.
I have not heard of any Kjolen Mountains, and as part of a local SAR team, I think I should've known about it if it existed.
SAR = Search And Rescue in case anyone else didn’t immediately click.
They probably mean Kjølen? Kjolen could be an appropriate name for a mountain though, shape-wise :).
That's probably it :) But if they refer to the Kjølen which is the entire Scandinavian mountain range, that's terribly imprecise.
Kjolen would mean "the skirt", for the anglophones reading.
Kjolen would mean "the skirt", for the anglophones reading.
Please forgive me, for I am actually curious about this:
Were you previously aware of the term "Kjølen" to refer to the (Northern) Scandinavian mountain range? And if so, when you wrote
> I have not heard of any Kjolen Mountains,
were you really distinguishing between Kjolen and Kjølen? Are you a native Norwegian speaker?
I understand that ø is a "distinct" letter in Norwegian, but to my uneducated eyes/ears it sounds similarly baffling to a French speaker not recognizing the "Pyrenees" because they're used to "Pyrénées".
Were you previously aware of the term "Kjølen" to refer to the (Northern) Scandinavian mountain range? And if so, when you wrote
> I have not heard of any Kjolen Mountains,
were you really distinguishing between Kjolen and Kjølen? Are you a native Norwegian speaker?
I understand that ø is a "distinct" letter in Norwegian, but to my uneducated eyes/ears it sounds similarly baffling to a French speaker not recognizing the "Pyrenees" because they're used to "Pyrénées".
I'm Swedish, not Norwegian, but I can understand not making the connection between "Kjølen" and "Kjolen" because both of those are words and have completely different meaning, and as you say 'ø' is quite distinct from 'o'.
Just to take a random example, if you were to say "Bird Peak" instead of "Bard Peak" it wouldn't be immediately obvious what you meant.
Just to take a random example, if you were to say "Bird Peak" instead of "Bard Peak" it wouldn't be immediately obvious what you meant.
I didn't make that connection since the term Kjølen to refer to the whole mountain range is rather archaic. If it was more common with this specific meaning, I may have understood it.
I'm a Swedish native (mutually intelligible with Norwegian), and yes, when I read, "o" and ø/ö are very different and distinct letters.
I'm a Swedish native (mutually intelligible with Norwegian), and yes, when I read, "o" and ø/ö are very different and distinct letters.
I would probably make the connection if we are talking about very commonly used words, or if I knew what to look out for. In this case, I am not terribly familiar with that mountain range, so I probably wouldn't make the connection by myself.
We have 3 different "special" letters in Norwegian, all of which have their own "latinifications", so it can sometimes be difficult to see when it has been done. (ø to o, æ to ae/a/e, å to a/aa)
Incidentally, Kjolen and Kjølen are both nouns of their own. (kjolen means "the dress" as in what a woman could wear. kjølen can mean "the fridge" as in "put something in the fridge"/"put something in a cool place")
We have 3 different "special" letters in Norwegian, all of which have their own "latinifications", so it can sometimes be difficult to see when it has been done. (ø to o, æ to ae/a/e, å to a/aa)
Incidentally, Kjolen and Kjølen are both nouns of their own. (kjolen means "the dress" as in what a woman could wear. kjølen can mean "the fridge" as in "put something in the fridge"/"put something in a cool place")
> kjølen can mean "the fridge" as in "put something in the fridge"/"put something in a cool place"
I could be wrong, but I would guess "kjølen" would translate to the "the keel" in this case? Perhaps refering to the shape of the mountain range looking like a keel up-side down.
I could be wrong, but I would guess "kjølen" would translate to the "the keel" in this case? Perhaps refering to the shape of the mountain range looking like a keel up-side down.
Since then there was an accident involving an even lower body temperature: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/04/doctors-toddle...
> Two-year-old Adas was found by police unconscious near a creek in the village of Raclawice, just north of Krakow, late on Sunday in weather of -7C.
> His core body temperature had plummeted to just 12.7C (54F), and doctors kept him in an artificial coma until Wednesday, fearing brain damage.
> But after being awakened, the boy on Thursday was speaking, playing and eating normally in hospital. Medical staff believe he might have come through his ordeal almost unscathed, probably with pneumonia but with no sign of frostbite.
> Two-year-old Adas was found by police unconscious near a creek in the village of Raclawice, just north of Krakow, late on Sunday in weather of -7C.
> His core body temperature had plummeted to just 12.7C (54F), and doctors kept him in an artificial coma until Wednesday, fearing brain damage.
> But after being awakened, the boy on Thursday was speaking, playing and eating normally in hospital. Medical staff believe he might have come through his ordeal almost unscathed, probably with pneumonia but with no sign of frostbite.
There's more detail on her wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Bågenholm
These are the tidbits I found most interesting:
> A team of more than a hundred doctors and nurses worked in shifts for nine hours to save her life. Bågenholm woke up ten days after the accident, paralyzed from the neck down and subsequently spent two months recovering in an intensive care unit. Although she has made an almost full recovery from the incident, late in 2009 she was still suffering from minor symptoms in hands and feet related to nerve injury.
> "Her body had time to cool down completely before the heart stopped. Her brain was so cold when the heart stopped that the brain cells needed very little oxygen, so the brain could survive for quite a prolonged time."
> "victims of very deep accidental hypothermia with circulatory arrest should be seen as potentially resuscitable with a prospect of full recovery. The key success factors of such marginal resuscitation efforts are early bystander actions with vigorous CPR and early warning of the emergency system, early dispatch of adequate rescue units (ground and air-ambulances) and good co-ordination between the resources outside and inside the hospital, aggressive rewarming and a spirit not to give up."
> Bågenholm [upon waking paralyzed] feared she would spend the rest of her life on her back, and was angry with her colleagues for saving her. Bågenholm soon recovered from the paralysis, however, and later apologized to her friends; "I was very irritated when I realized they had saved me. I feared a meaningless life, without any dignity. Now I am very happy to be alive and want to apologize."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Bågenholm
These are the tidbits I found most interesting:
> A team of more than a hundred doctors and nurses worked in shifts for nine hours to save her life. Bågenholm woke up ten days after the accident, paralyzed from the neck down and subsequently spent two months recovering in an intensive care unit. Although she has made an almost full recovery from the incident, late in 2009 she was still suffering from minor symptoms in hands and feet related to nerve injury.
> "Her body had time to cool down completely before the heart stopped. Her brain was so cold when the heart stopped that the brain cells needed very little oxygen, so the brain could survive for quite a prolonged time."
> "victims of very deep accidental hypothermia with circulatory arrest should be seen as potentially resuscitable with a prospect of full recovery. The key success factors of such marginal resuscitation efforts are early bystander actions with vigorous CPR and early warning of the emergency system, early dispatch of adequate rescue units (ground and air-ambulances) and good co-ordination between the resources outside and inside the hospital, aggressive rewarming and a spirit not to give up."
> Bågenholm [upon waking paralyzed] feared she would spend the rest of her life on her back, and was angry with her colleagues for saving her. Bågenholm soon recovered from the paralysis, however, and later apologized to her friends; "I was very irritated when I realized they had saved me. I feared a meaningless life, without any dignity. Now I am very happy to be alive and want to apologize."
As to the first point, the cost of this care had to be in the millions, or would be in the U.S. anyway. My MIL recently had extended care due to a fall and the bill was $500K. Fortunately after Medicare, cost to her was $1300.
In any case, it's still an extraordinary allocation of resources to save one life. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Norway:
> Expenditure on healthcare is about 7,727 USD per person per year in 2020, among the highest in the world. While the availability of public healthcare is universal in Norway, there are certain payment stipulations. Children aged sixteen or younger, and several other groups (such as nursing women and retirees) are given free healthcare regardless of the coverage they may have had in previous situations. All other citizens are responsible for paying a certain amount in user fees. If they reach a certain amount of money paid out-of-pocket, they receive an exemption card (frikort for helsetjenester in Norwegian) for public health services, and they no longer have to pay user fees for the remainder of the calendar year. The amount is 2460 NOK in 2021, or about 264 USD. Everything above this amount is given for free for the rest of that year.
She went on to become a radiologist so probably pays a decent amount in taxes now. As well, as a radiologist, she now helps to care for others. But still, she'll never "pay back" what was expended on saving her life.
I'm not trying to make any point here, other than that humans are weird in how we allocate resources to each other.
Edit to add:
I didn't mean to spawn a whole conversation about U.S. vs European healthcare, and my point above is not well made.
I'm just lamenting how 100 humans will come together to save one life while we still allow over a half million people a year to die from malaria. You'll see a dozen humans rescue a dog during a flood while I don't even want to look up the number of dogs that are euthanized. How the world came together to save those kids from the Thai cave, but we can't collectively figure out how to deal compassionately with immigrants.
I know we're just doing the best we can as a species. But I can still be both amazed by a symphony orchestra and sad that we use those same brains to build F-22s.
Also, FWIW, as a U.S. citizen, my vote is for Medicare For All, or failing that, a price-regulated multi-payer system like Germany's.
In any case, it's still an extraordinary allocation of resources to save one life. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Norway:
> Expenditure on healthcare is about 7,727 USD per person per year in 2020, among the highest in the world. While the availability of public healthcare is universal in Norway, there are certain payment stipulations. Children aged sixteen or younger, and several other groups (such as nursing women and retirees) are given free healthcare regardless of the coverage they may have had in previous situations. All other citizens are responsible for paying a certain amount in user fees. If they reach a certain amount of money paid out-of-pocket, they receive an exemption card (frikort for helsetjenester in Norwegian) for public health services, and they no longer have to pay user fees for the remainder of the calendar year. The amount is 2460 NOK in 2021, or about 264 USD. Everything above this amount is given for free for the rest of that year.
She went on to become a radiologist so probably pays a decent amount in taxes now. As well, as a radiologist, she now helps to care for others. But still, she'll never "pay back" what was expended on saving her life.
I'm not trying to make any point here, other than that humans are weird in how we allocate resources to each other.
Edit to add:
I didn't mean to spawn a whole conversation about U.S. vs European healthcare, and my point above is not well made.
I'm just lamenting how 100 humans will come together to save one life while we still allow over a half million people a year to die from malaria. You'll see a dozen humans rescue a dog during a flood while I don't even want to look up the number of dogs that are euthanized. How the world came together to save those kids from the Thai cave, but we can't collectively figure out how to deal compassionately with immigrants.
I know we're just doing the best we can as a species. But I can still be both amazed by a symphony orchestra and sad that we use those same brains to build F-22s.
Also, FWIW, as a U.S. citizen, my vote is for Medicare For All, or failing that, a price-regulated multi-payer system like Germany's.
Humans place a high priority on saving the lives of their countrymen/women, and IMO that makes a lot of sense. It’s not about “hopefully she pays that back in taxes in the future,” it’s “I want to live in a society where, if my life can be saved, we don’t let me die to save money” - or the same for you family, friends, coworkers, etc.
Also worth noting that American healthcare is exceptionally expensive, which may be biasing your view of medical costs. American healthcare costs about double other similar nations, per capita: https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-does-canadas-health-spending-comp...
Whatever it did cost in Norway, it was probably very roughly half what it would have cost in America.
Also worth noting that American healthcare is exceptionally expensive, which may be biasing your view of medical costs. American healthcare costs about double other similar nations, per capita: https://www.cihi.ca/en/how-does-canadas-health-spending-comp...
Whatever it did cost in Norway, it was probably very roughly half what it would have cost in America.
The high cost difference part is remarkable but the “she’ll never pay it back” part seems to me like observing a mega millions lottery winner will never pay back the prize money with future ticket purchases. Isn’t that the whole point of the lottery or health insurance? Getting a benefit that society as a whole can afford but no reasonable individual can.
This, and furthermore the scientific value of proving that this can be done has value too. Imagine trying to compensate someone to undergo this experiment willingly...
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It's amusing to realize that health insurance is a lottery that pays the unlucky.
Not just health insurance, effectively every insurance. Insurance is a safety against an unlikely but highly negative outcome afterall.
Why would it cost millions? The private US hospital might charge millions, but if you have a government healthcare system, the cost is basically paychecks + rent + equipment amortization + medicine + "other" (food, cleaning,...).
I'm not sure what exatly they did to the frozen woman, but for your MIL, that would probably take a few dedicated doctors hours, a few dedicated hours of nurse care (both spread out over the whole stay), some xrays and other scans, and all together would get up to a few thousands of euros max.... usually even less.
I'm not sure what exatly they did to the frozen woman, but for your MIL, that would probably take a few dedicated doctors hours, a few dedicated hours of nurse care (both spread out over the whole stay), some xrays and other scans, and all together would get up to a few thousands of euros max.... usually even less.
I guess the numbers are difficult to get exactly right but the cost per day at ICU seems to be about 50 000 2019-NOK in Norway [1] (70 000 the first day, half the next).
By comparison (in 2005 dollars), "Using data from 253 U.S. hospitals, Dasta and colleagues found that the average daily cost for ICU patients decreased from $7,728 to $3,872 to $3,436 on Days 1 to 3" [2].
$7 700 in 2005 is about $11 000 today, and 70 000 NOK is about $9 100 using exchange rate from 2019 and adjusted for inflation
[1] https://legemiddelverket.no/Documents/Offentlig%2520finansie...
[2] https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/10.1513/AnnalsATS.201506-366...
By comparison (in 2005 dollars), "Using data from 253 U.S. hospitals, Dasta and colleagues found that the average daily cost for ICU patients decreased from $7,728 to $3,872 to $3,436 on Days 1 to 3" [2].
$7 700 in 2005 is about $11 000 today, and 70 000 NOK is about $9 100 using exchange rate from 2019 and adjusted for inflation
[1] https://legemiddelverket.no/Documents/Offentlig%2520finansie...
[2] https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/10.1513/AnnalsATS.201506-366...
None of these costs are real. They are artificially induced by the severe supply restrictions from the AMA limiting medical school seats.
Think of this instead as the value of 100 professionals in another field for a month. High, but much less than another person can produce in an entire life time.
Think of this instead as the value of 100 professionals in another field for a month. High, but much less than another person can produce in an entire life time.
1. Healthcare costs in the US are artificially inflated. You can’t compare the two.
2. This is the whole point of insurance. The majority loses money overall, but the outliers win. The point is that the outlier might be you.
2. This is the whole point of insurance. The majority loses money overall, but the outliers win. The point is that the outlier might be you.
> Fortunately after Medicare, cost to her was $1300
I know what you mean here, but I can’t help but read this as:
> Unfortunately, despite Medicare, she still had to pay $1300.
I know what you mean here, but I can’t help but read this as:
> Unfortunately, despite Medicare, she still had to pay $1300.
? Why would having 100 people work day and night to labour over you costing $1300 be a problem. Even by a civic standard it could have been very expensive and that would have been 'fair'.
Because we as a society (Germany in my case) already are already paying them for their work. Why would anybody bill an unfortunate soul for their misfortune?
This outlier is why health insurance exists in most countries.
This outlier is why health insurance exists in most countries.
That reminds of this quote from Aneurin Bevan - founder of the UK NHS:
"Illness is neither an indulgence for which people have to pay, nor an offence for which they should be penalised, but a misfortune the cost of which should be shared by the community."
"Illness is neither an indulgence for which people have to pay, nor an offence for which they should be penalised, but a misfortune the cost of which should be shared by the community."
This is the kind of entitled attitude that destroys any hope of productive socialism.
As an extreme example - you don't 'pay taxes' so that the government will launch a $20 million dollar rescue operation to save your life from deadly illness while on an arctic operation. You're just going to die.
We do a form medial triage on everything (there's an unlimited demand for medical services) and it's largely resources based.
Ex: COVID antivirals - not everyone gets them. They are rationed.
Every service definitely has it's limits, costs get out of hand at the far end of the spectrum on pretty much everything you can imagine.
Which is why 'co pays' are entirely rational - and likely more fair - form of paying for services, in fact it's surprising they are not more common.
A $20K bill for having 'having a baby' is outrageous as it happens in the US, but for '100 medical professionals in attendance' at once isn't unreasonable at all.
As an extreme example - you don't 'pay taxes' so that the government will launch a $20 million dollar rescue operation to save your life from deadly illness while on an arctic operation. You're just going to die.
We do a form medial triage on everything (there's an unlimited demand for medical services) and it's largely resources based.
Ex: COVID antivirals - not everyone gets them. They are rationed.
Every service definitely has it's limits, costs get out of hand at the far end of the spectrum on pretty much everything you can imagine.
Which is why 'co pays' are entirely rational - and likely more fair - form of paying for services, in fact it's surprising they are not more common.
A $20K bill for having 'having a baby' is outrageous as it happens in the US, but for '100 medical professionals in attendance' at once isn't unreasonable at all.
> This is the kind of entitled attitude that destroys any hope of productive socialism.
Since his attitude is based on how the systems successfully work in other (more "socialist") countries, I don't think that's a fair argument to make.
Since his attitude is based on how the systems successfully work in other (more "socialist") countries, I don't think that's a fair argument to make.
From a country that doesn’t have copays, I’m happy with the service I get and I don’t wish for copays. My dad died of cancer last year - the treatments and service he received were excellent. He even got extra money along the way due to his illness and I’m glad my surviving mother is left with the entirety of his estate instead of bills to pay.
Yes that's exactly what the government collects taxes for. That is what say the Bergrettung does. Or what the Coast guard does if there is somebody lost at sea.
Also if somebody on an Antarctic base gets sick and can be evacuated they get evacuated - that is also exactly what you describe.
OFC there is triage but in normal time we have no medical triage aside from a very soft form of it in that non-life threatening and non-urgent procedures are scheduled and delayed as needed.
Co pays for non-elective are only rational if the amounts are negligible even for the most impoverished patient and then its easier and cost effective just to not haver them at all.
Also if somebody on an Antarctic base gets sick and can be evacuated they get evacuated - that is also exactly what you describe.
OFC there is triage but in normal time we have no medical triage aside from a very soft form of it in that non-life threatening and non-urgent procedures are scheduled and delayed as needed.
Co pays for non-elective are only rational if the amounts are negligible even for the most impoverished patient and then its easier and cost effective just to not haver them at all.
You pay for Medicare out of your paycheck your entire career, and you continue to pay for supplementary insurance after that.
There’s an argument for paying a token user fee to discourage overuse of the medical system, but that isn’t the case here.
There’s an argument for paying a token user fee to discourage overuse of the medical system, but that isn’t the case here.
Because some people regard attempting to literally quantify the value of someones life into a dollar amount to be a "problem"
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If she wasn’t using those resources, would the country have saved all that much? These folks were all employed and working, ready for less extraordinary situations, and thus available for a situation like this.
Norwegian doctors spring into existence at the moment of need and cease to exist once the need is over.
The accounting for things like this is the same that results in saying space craft toilets cost fifty billion dollars.
In reality there is some costs associated with consumables, overtime, etc that could be avoided but it’s hard to account for the costs that would have been spent “anyway”.
Perhaps you could argue that there was care neglected in other aspects of the facility, but given the strangeness of the situation it’s likely that many involved were involved only peripherally and/or would have been doing research anyway.
The accounting for things like this is the same that results in saying space craft toilets cost fifty billion dollars.
In reality there is some costs associated with consumables, overtime, etc that could be avoided but it’s hard to account for the costs that would have been spent “anyway”.
Perhaps you could argue that there was care neglected in other aspects of the facility, but given the strangeness of the situation it’s likely that many involved were involved only peripherally and/or would have been doing research anyway.
elastic norwegian doctor service
There's almost unlimited demand for Healthcare services in modern countries. That said, some uses are better than others.
>> to become a radiologist so probably pays a decent amount in taxes now.
Specialist doctors are one of those jobs that is on the cusp of tax planning/avoidance technology. Once you are touching 1mil per year you have enough money to engage proper tax professionals to take care of your money. In the US they will run their practice as a business rather be any sort of employee. Offshore trusts, spendthrifts, deferals ... I wouldn't assume that every doctor suffers a huge tax bill each year.
Specialist doctors are one of those jobs that is on the cusp of tax planning/avoidance technology. Once you are touching 1mil per year you have enough money to engage proper tax professionals to take care of your money. In the US they will run their practice as a business rather be any sort of employee. Offshore trusts, spendthrifts, deferals ... I wouldn't assume that every doctor suffers a huge tax bill each year.
Do you seriously think that doctors get 1mil per year anywhere outside of the US?
I fear that most americans aren’t aware how vastly different wages are in europe and for what reasons
In Australia it’s not uncommon but that’s also exceptional.
Doing some quick googling tells me that the median radiologist wage is at about 1 million NOK a year, which is 103k EUR/ 111k USD. This will be taxted at about 31,3% without any deductions. The median wage in Norway was 635 000 NOK in 2021.
> But still, she'll never "pay back" what was expended on saving her life.
I’m not so sure. In direct taxes, maybe not. But she earns a wage and and spends that too. The shops she spends at pay tax, and that money goes around. Unless she burns her money, her contribution to society in money alone is a lot greater than just her own tax bill.
I’m not so sure. In direct taxes, maybe not. But she earns a wage and and spends that too. The shops she spends at pay tax, and that money goes around. Unless she burns her money, her contribution to society in money alone is a lot greater than just her own tax bill.
Morbid curiosity or mean comment maybe, but what's the price tag on a Sea King ambulance helicopter rescue in the U.S.?
But in most countries that kind of service is just not available. It is highly available in Norway due to the oil industry needs, the many islands and mountains making it useful, and generally very high standard of living.
But in most countries that kind of service is just not available. It is highly available in Norway due to the oil industry needs, the many islands and mountains making it useful, and generally very high standard of living.
For reference, the operating cost of such rescue helicopter
(including crew) is about 100 000 NOK per hour in Norway [1] or ~$11 000.
[1] https://ambulanseforum.no/artikler/redningsaksjonen-kostet-r...
[1] https://ambulanseforum.no/artikler/redningsaksjonen-kostet-r...
But still, she'll never "pay back" what was expended on saving her life.
You don't know that. Let me suggest the movie It's a wonderful life in place of trying to debate this with you.
But I appreciate you trying to say something meaningful. Please don't interpret this as combative.
You don't know that. Let me suggest the movie It's a wonderful life in place of trying to debate this with you.
But I appreciate you trying to say something meaningful. Please don't interpret this as combative.
But it's also these extreme cases that most expand the limits of our medical understanding and ability, such advancement being analogous to dividends that will pay out for all eternity.
The Wikipedia page does mention Bågenholm's case becoming a literal textbook example (and links to a paywalled case study).
The Wikipedia page does mention Bågenholm's case becoming a literal textbook example (and links to a paywalled case study).
Thanks, the temperatures in the article means nothing for those who don't speak Fahrenheit...
Because 12C ~ 21F there are some convenient temperatures to interpolate between.
of course 0C = 32F and -40C = -40F but also (within a degree F):
below 0C they get less useful
of course 0C = 32F and -40C = -40F but also (within a degree F):
04C = 40F
16C = 61F
28C = 82F
40C = 104Fbelow 0C they get less useful
-08C = 18F
-19C =-1.9F
-31C = -23FInteresting strategy. I long ago memorized 20C = 68F and then adjust in increments of 5/9, which works well enough for the range of temperatures I consider habitable. I've gotten so good at this I once translated on the fly between some fellow American and European runners during a marathon. :-)
"When it's springtime in Alaska, it's forty below". That's all I have managed to memorize about temperature conversion so far in my life.
56.7F = 13.7C
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Another one: https://allthatsinteresting.com/jean-hilliard
> Her skin was so frozen that they couldn’t pierce it with hypodermic needles — the needles just broke on contact. Her body temperature was so low that it didn’t register on a thermometer. Her face was an ashen-gray color and her eyes didn’t respond to changes in light.
> Her skin was so frozen that they couldn’t pierce it with hypodermic needles — the needles just broke on contact. Her body temperature was so low that it didn’t register on a thermometer. Her face was an ashen-gray color and her eyes didn’t respond to changes in light.
> Even after a couple of hours out of the water, Bågenholm’s core temperature was 56.7 degrees Farenheit
13.7 Celsius
13.7 Celsius
Fahrenheit is such a dumb temperature scale. Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit simply took the lowest outside winter temperature of his hometown as zero and the highest summer termperature as 100 degrees. If he had lived somewhere else or at a different time, the temperature scale would be different.
Although Fahrenheit was German, Germany does not use this scale. It would be nice if the remaining parts of the world that still use the Fahrenheit scale could eventually switch to Celsius which at least makes a little bit of sense.
Although Fahrenheit was German, Germany does not use this scale. It would be nice if the remaining parts of the world that still use the Fahrenheit scale could eventually switch to Celsius which at least makes a little bit of sense.
Fahrenheit was actually defined so 0 °F was the freezing point of brine, and 100 °F was roughly human body temperature.
I had a different source, but Wikipedia says that you are correct.
In either case, a temperature scale that goes from 0 = “ice on the roads won’t melt it anymore” to 100 = “watch out, heatstroke time” is eminently reasonable for measuring temperatures that humans experience personally.
I understand Celcius is better for times when you want to do math, such as when you are figuring out how many joules it is going to take to boil water for your morning coffee, in the manner that any perfectly normal human being does on a regular basis. Why, it’s just as natural as consulting the periodic table so you can the use nutrition fact Dara on about sodium to estimate the impact of swapping out unsalted butter for salted in your recipe. Which I have done. Once. (It was a very small impact.)
I understand Celcius is better for times when you want to do math, such as when you are figuring out how many joules it is going to take to boil water for your morning coffee, in the manner that any perfectly normal human being does on a regular basis. Why, it’s just as natural as consulting the periodic table so you can the use nutrition fact Dara on about sodium to estimate the impact of swapping out unsalted butter for salted in your recipe. Which I have done. Once. (It was a very small impact.)
What's cool, is that it does not seem to have resulted in permanent injury.
She is currently an MD at a Norwegian University hospital, and looks to be doing great.
She is currently an MD at a Norwegian University hospital, and looks to be doing great.
I wonder what caused the neck down paralysis initially and how it recovered, usually there isn't much scope for recovery from that.
>I wonder what caused the neck down paralysis initially
Nerve damage.
>and how it recovered
The nerves healed.
Nerve damage.
>and how it recovered
The nerves healed.
nerve damage to the spinal cord? or peripheral nerves? why did the nerve damage there take longer to reverse than nerve damage in the brain?
also, what do you mean by damage exactly? the axons presumably weren't damaged. the neurons were apparently not "online" but presumably didn't go through apoptosis. do you mean metabolic dysfunction?
also, what do you mean by damage exactly? the axons presumably weren't damaged. the neurons were apparently not "online" but presumably didn't go through apoptosis. do you mean metabolic dysfunction?
Nerves in the CNS hardly ever heal or regenerate, tetraplegia is usually damage to the cervical nerves which are CNS
This article makes me wonder if rapid cooling could help save you from brain damage in case of a stroke or similar.
In Siberia they do this routinely. In this video [1] doctors lower the body temperature to 75 degrees Fahrenheit, which basically brings the body including brain to a halt, then perform the surgery.
Note: the audio is in Russian but there is text description below the video:
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVMX6YKYMrU
Note: the audio is in Russian but there is text description below the video:
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVMX6YKYMrU
> By the time the rescue team showed up with a rope and a pointed shovel, hacked a hole in the ice, and pulled her out, she had been submerged for about 80 minutes. She had no heartbeat.
Interestingly people like Wim Hof have apparently trained themselves to withstand the same exposure for 2+ hours with no issues. The article alludes to this too:
> Slightly less creatively, studies have shown that when experienced arctic explorers are asked to stick their fingers in icy water, they feel less cold than average Joes do—their bodies have slowed down their responses, trained by repeated exposure into playing the long game.
I wonder what changes in the body with repeated exposure, and why we haven’t evolved to do it naturally?
Interestingly people like Wim Hof have apparently trained themselves to withstand the same exposure for 2+ hours with no issues. The article alludes to this too:
> Slightly less creatively, studies have shown that when experienced arctic explorers are asked to stick their fingers in icy water, they feel less cold than average Joes do—their bodies have slowed down their responses, trained by repeated exposure into playing the long game.
I wonder what changes in the body with repeated exposure, and why we haven’t evolved to do it naturally?
It seems he has survived ice for couple hours, that's different than very cold water, as the water will transfer heat away a lot faster.
Especially in a stream where the water is moving.
It's like being outside in 0 degree weather (celsius), being outside on the same day with 100 kph winds
It's like being outside in 0 degree weather (celsius), being outside on the same day with 100 kph winds
> I wonder what changes in the body with repeated exposure, and why we haven’t evolved to do it naturally?
I can’t speak to the specifics, but generally speaking the body will try to maintain homeostasis. A stressor that disrupts homeostasis leads to adaptation or illness and death. Presumably those adaptations are not metabolically free, so the body prefers not to make them in the absence of stress.
I can’t speak to the specifics, but generally speaking the body will try to maintain homeostasis. A stressor that disrupts homeostasis leads to adaptation or illness and death. Presumably those adaptations are not metabolically free, so the body prefers not to make them in the absence of stress.
A few years back while recertifying, I got interested in what the world record was for longest successful CPR recovery.
Longest I could find was this 4-hours incident, involving someone who'd gone into hypothermia some hours before:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/christine-tin...
I think I read somewhere else the lowered body temperature contributed to her surviving long enough for rescue.
Longest I could find was this 4-hours incident, involving someone who'd gone into hypothermia some hours before:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/christine-tin...
I think I read somewhere else the lowered body temperature contributed to her surviving long enough for rescue.
> “We will not declare her dead until she is warm and dead.”
More cases of kids than adults surviving very low body temperatures, but the saying is true, as long as you're not warm and dead there is some hope.
More cases of kids than adults surviving very low body temperatures, but the saying is true, as long as you're not warm and dead there is some hope.
It’s absolutely true based on every EMT I’ve spoken to. Which, by the way, I highly recommend if you have the opportunity and the stomach for it. They have some wild stories to tell.
Indeed. I'm an EMT and because of cases like this we're taught not to assume a cold or drowned patient is dead until they're warm and dead.
Not for nothing, with children there is often a greater “spirit not to give up.”
That's true, but there's also a hypothesis that kids freeze quicker because of their lower body mass, which may make them shut down more uniformly with less damage. Which means thawing them out has a better chance of success.
Clip of a short BBC interview with her: https://youtu.be/clvnGfE6ul0?t=63
Remind me of a scene from The Abyss (movie 1989). The main heroine deliberately enter hypothermia underwater hoping to be revived few moments later and after a apparently hopeless CPR she finally come back from the death.
Turn out this part was actually quite realistic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Abyss
Turn out this part was actually quite realistic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Abyss
The actual title is much better: The Woman Who Survived the Lowest Body Temperature Ever
Very few mammals can recover from freezing, and the bad sensationalism takes away from how amazing the facts are.
The article fails to mention her lowest measured core temperature, but Wikipedia says 13.7 °C (56.7 °F), which is definitely not yet freezing.
Very few mammals can recover from freezing, and the bad sensationalism takes away from how amazing the facts are.
The article fails to mention her lowest measured core temperature, but Wikipedia says 13.7 °C (56.7 °F), which is definitely not yet freezing.
Sounds like a similar medical miracle to I guy I knew at University. https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2017/02/19/this-queens-...
"She's ice cold when I touch her skin, and she looks absolutely dead," Gilbert later told CNN. "On the electrocardiogram… there is a completely flat line," Gilbert remembered. "Like you could have drawn it with a ruler. No signs of life whatsoever."
It sounds like they were measuring the wrong thing.
It sounds like they were measuring the wrong thing.
This is a little flip. They obviously weren’t measuring the wrong thing because they kept going and resuscitated her. The EKG was mentioned as one datapoint on the state of her physical body.
Edit: I’m writing this comment because in almost any real situation, some of the standard measurements won’t be useful. Pulling out one and concluding “EKGs are wrong” (or whatever equivalent) is a pretty easy and common way to feel smart in the moment and make worse choices overall.
Edit: I’m writing this comment because in almost any real situation, some of the standard measurements won’t be useful. Pulling out one and concluding “EKGs are wrong” (or whatever equivalent) is a pretty easy and common way to feel smart in the moment and make worse choices overall.
"They obviously weren’t measuring the wrong thing because they kept going and resuscitated her."
No.
They disregarded the measurements.
The measurements mentioned in the story obviously failed them, so they went with their own judgement instead (or maybe some other measurements not mentioned in the story.. but I'm just going by what's given in the story, not some imagined account of what might have happened instead).
No.
They disregarded the measurements.
The measurements mentioned in the story obviously failed them, so they went with their own judgement instead (or maybe some other measurements not mentioned in the story.. but I'm just going by what's given in the story, not some imagined account of what might have happened instead).
> No.
No back to you. :)
> The measurements mentioned in the story obviously failed them
The measurement didn't "fail" them. It told them the truth, that is that she didn't have electrical activity in her hearth. If they would have seen a different rhythm they would have given her a different treatment. For example if they would have seen one of the shockable rhythms they would have given her the appropriate shock.
> so they went with their own judgement instead
Instead? From what you say it sounds like there is some rule preventing people from continuing efforts if they see a flat ECG. That is not true. The medical providers didn't use their judgement "instead" of the measurement. They used their judgement factoring in all the things they measured, known, heard, and sensed. (including but not limited to the flat ECG measurement)
No back to you. :)
> The measurements mentioned in the story obviously failed them
The measurement didn't "fail" them. It told them the truth, that is that she didn't have electrical activity in her hearth. If they would have seen a different rhythm they would have given her a different treatment. For example if they would have seen one of the shockable rhythms they would have given her the appropriate shock.
> so they went with their own judgement instead
Instead? From what you say it sounds like there is some rule preventing people from continuing efforts if they see a flat ECG. That is not true. The medical providers didn't use their judgement "instead" of the measurement. They used their judgement factoring in all the things they measured, known, heard, and sensed. (including but not limited to the flat ECG measurement)
Time and temperature are other measurements mentioned in the article. Since it’s a hospital, you should probably assume some other data are available too. If you’ve never been to a hospital or doctor’s office, you can either google “standard health data used in hospitals” or take my word for it that they have tools other than just EKGs. (I have been to several hospitals!)
Disregarding the EKG until temperature is in a normal range is 1) what the article says they did and 2) a combination of two different metrics to paint a more complete picture than just one datapoint would provide. The EKG didn’t fail them. It was a memorable anecdote meant to convey to the author the state the body was in when it arrived.
Disregarding the EKG until temperature is in a normal range is 1) what the article says they did and 2) a combination of two different metrics to paint a more complete picture than just one datapoint would provide. The EKG didn’t fail them. It was a memorable anecdote meant to convey to the author the state the body was in when it arrived.
What would you suggest measuring?
Nope, she was dead
Just turns out she wasn’t irreversibly dead
Just turns out she wasn’t irreversibly dead
The lowest body temperature ever... maybe recorded recently. The nazis conducted experiments to try to freeze people and bring them back to life which they conducted on jews and slaviks after they kept losing pilots after they would die of hypathermia in the english channel.
Cooling a patient was feature in a M.A.S.H. episode in 1979/80.
I presume it was moderately well known thing then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Time_(M*A*S*H)
I presume it was moderately well known thing then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_Time_(M*A*S*H)
Traditional Indian medicine systems could explain this phenomenon.
The "life" of a human being is categorized as 5 different energies, each having a specific function. (Pancha Pranas).
Death is seen as a process where these energies exit the body in a certain sequence over a period of time.
It is said that it is possible to reverse this process till a certain point with intervention.
A small extract on what these 5 energies are:
https://imgur.com/2GvgEqB
This is from the book "Death: An inside story"
This is so weird. Is it possible that we can bring Walt Disney back to life after all?
Does this give credence to the freezing of brains that people under go post death?
no, the person in question wasn't frozen even if the headline says so. Her body temperature was lowered quite drastically and that slows down any damage dramatically.
Actually freezing people without any type of antifreeze agent usually causes ice crystals to form and that damages cells in the whole body enough to make revival unlikely.
Modern cryo uses antifreeze agents but since the people undergoing these procedure are already quite dead & those agents aren't really conducive to life either most of the time its still unclear if anybody frozen that way can be revived in the future at all.
Actually freezing people without any type of antifreeze agent usually causes ice crystals to form and that damages cells in the whole body enough to make revival unlikely.
Modern cryo uses antifreeze agents but since the people undergoing these procedure are already quite dead & those agents aren't really conducive to life either most of the time its still unclear if anybody frozen that way can be revived in the future at all.
She was 0K.
> It took much longer—years—for her to be able to move, walk, and finally even ski again.
I’ll take cold and dead over this, thanks. I’ve got a chronic illness and have a good sense of my limits for what’s bearable.
I’ll take cold and dead over this, thanks. I’ve got a chronic illness and have a good sense of my limits for what’s bearable.
I've got a chronic illness too. I use a wheelchair. it's very bearable for me. you might be less willing to live with limitations than me, though - I was never terribly athletic even when I was able-bodied.
Yeah, everybody’s different. I thought my life was pretty pointless pre-illness. Much worse and I’ll have had enough.
The wiki article has her working 140 days after the accident: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_B%C3%A5genholm
“ Bågenholm returned to work in October 1999.[12] On 7 October 1999–140 days after the accident—she returned to the hospital in Tromsø and met the doctors and nurses that helped save her life.[18]”
“ Bågenholm returned to work in October 1999.[12] On 7 October 1999–140 days after the accident—she returned to the hospital in Tromsø and met the doctors and nurses that helped save her life.[18]”
Our second son was (initially, thankfully) stillborn after a complicated delivery, yet the medical team managed to revive him and immediately put him in hypothermia (to 34° C), surrounding his head with some apparel containing essentially ice. Fast forward the 5 most painful days of my life, doctors warmed him back very slowly. He is now 4, and showing completely "normal" (in the statistical sense of the term) development.
Indeed, brain damage is not immediate in case of oxygen loss. It happens in phases. I am no expert, but I understood that most damage happen not immediately, and happen even if oxygen has been restored. Slowing down the body through hypothermia, seems to avoid the brain to "collapse".
Discussing with the head of the department (for a mandatory "retrospective"), he explained me that this technique had been devised after seeing that people who drowned in very cold water could be revived with less "impact" on their capacities than others. He also explained me that the technique was not always successful, but was the only "treatment" that had shown actual improvement of recovery chances in this kind of cases.