Parmigiano Reggiano makers embedding tiny trackers in rind to fight cheese fraud(foodandwine.com)
foodandwine.com
Parmigiano Reggiano makers embedding tiny trackers in rind to fight cheese fraud
https://www.foodandwine.com/news/parmigiano-reggiano-fraud-micro-transponder-rinds-digital-label
316 comments
>The small cheesemakers have trouble selling their current stock, so I doubt that they are putting tracking chips in their wheels.
That gives me trucking e-log vibes. The few big players who are already doing "the thing" use their control of the industry to force it on everyone else because it handicaps everyone who is at a scale that's too small for "the thing" to be cost effective.
That gives me trucking e-log vibes. The few big players who are already doing "the thing" use their control of the industry to force it on everyone else because it handicaps everyone who is at a scale that's too small for "the thing" to be cost effective.
For the use of the cheese as collateral, a video showing the "cheese vault" of a bank[0] and a bank known to use cheese as collateral[1].
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzBPdU_iVcI
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credito_Emiliano
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzBPdU_iVcI
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credito_Emiliano
I love the fact about them being coops and having the ability to borrow with their cheese as collateral. It is so old world and so wholesome. I'd like to borrow against my cheese one day.
It's common for plant farmers in smaller countries too. I interviewed at a company that wanted to help banks lend to tiny farmers who have to borrow against future harvests to afford fertilizer / seed / equipment maintenance for the season ahead. Since many of these small farmers are geographically and technologically a long way off from where the banks are at, they don't get great rates because the banks (currently) don't have great tools for assessing the risk of any particular family farm.
This is how debt peons are made, historically. Kinda sad to see the same patterns in the modern world.
The same pattern is the FOUNDATION of the modern world!
The beauty of the current system is that because everyone has been told they are free, it is their own fault when they get trapped in a debt cycle.
Thus their own moral sense is the jailor.
The beauty of the current system is that because everyone has been told they are free, it is their own fault when they get trapped in a debt cycle.
Thus their own moral sense is the jailor.
Getting a bad rate doesn't mean you also accept it.
Having only cheese to create leverage limits your options
Sounded to me like they didn't even have the milk, and like they're in rural areas of developing nations.
[deleted]
Isn’t this the classic use case for debt? Upfront funding to fund an investment?
Hmmm... It's a two party system right? Borrow and lend. Your example is the borrower's half. The lender [supposedly] assumes risk, and presumes the money could be invested in other profitable ventures (opportunity cost), therefore they charge the borrower interest - I think the paradigm goes something like that... Viola double coincidence of needs, deal accepted.
If the farmer has a shit year, the lender has a variety of options for recourse. Including dispossessing the farmer of land. Historically there were other options like selling one's family. You could castrate yourself and hope to God you'll be accepted into court. Debtor's prison I imagine is also a probable consequence. This is doubly offensive when we consider interest, which can often result in multiples of the initial investment, and that many large scale first world lenders have developed world and the IMF backing them basically indicating they're not allowed default.
Hard to say with the information provided, but it seems typical of the trend.
If the farmer has a shit year, the lender has a variety of options for recourse. Including dispossessing the farmer of land. Historically there were other options like selling one's family. You could castrate yourself and hope to God you'll be accepted into court. Debtor's prison I imagine is also a probable consequence. This is doubly offensive when we consider interest, which can often result in multiples of the initial investment, and that many large scale first world lenders have developed world and the IMF backing them basically indicating they're not allowed default.
Hard to say with the information provided, but it seems typical of the trend.
... which incidentally is the origin of the Commodity Market.
You can borrow against most assets you own. Margin in your stock account, a mortgage or HELOC, etc. Credit cards are essentially based on your ability to repay much like borrowing against your future cheese revenue.
Modern finance and accounting more-or-less started in Renaissance Italy. Double-entry bookkeeping meant merchants and bankers kept good books. Good books and good accounting made negotiable instruments like bills of exchange (e.g. checks) and letters of credit reliable--at least when drawn on or issued by Italian banks and their partners around the continent--which meant travelers and traders didn't need to carry alot of currency or gold (dangerous), or resort to barter. Negotiable instruments in turn built up foreign exchange markets. Foreign exchange markets grew foreign financing. Larger, more liquid financing markets meant it became easier to borrow against assets (i.e. security). And on and on.
Much of modern transactional banking and securities law became settled during that period, eventually becoming nearly universal across disparate legal regimes around the world.
Much of modern transactional banking and securities law became settled during that period, eventually becoming nearly universal across disparate legal regimes around the world.
Sounds interesting. I never would have assumed double-entry bookkeeping went back that far. Any good book suggestions?
I enjoyed reading The Verge by P. Wyman https://www.amazon.com/Verge-Reformation-Renaissance-Forty-Y...
It describes changes that happened in war, mining, shipping, trade in (mostly western) Europe in the last decades of XV century. The common theme is finance and it includes a chapter on how bank houses became bigger and could secure much bigger loans (which allowed bigger states to wage wars, or rich individuals to bid for top titles ;)).
Fun read.
It describes changes that happened in war, mining, shipping, trade in (mostly western) Europe in the last decades of XV century. The common theme is finance and it includes a chapter on how bank houses became bigger and could secure much bigger loans (which allowed bigger states to wage wars, or rich individuals to bid for top titles ;)).
Fun read.
Welcome to MMXXII. About X centuries ago "we" imported the Hindu-Arabic numerals. I know, Latin numbers carry the myth of being more "safe" but really you should try the arabian numerals. They revolutionized math and eased reading text alongside.
thumbs-up
It's a convention to use roman numerals for centuries in some european countries. Parent poster probably just done it out of habit.
Thanks, I wasn’t aware it is not a “global” convention and wasn’t sure what does the parent make fun of.
One learns every day :) I will be more careful about this when writing centuries in English the next time.
Also this poster on quora have a detailed list https://www.quora.com/Why-do-we-write-century-numbers-with-I...
One learns every day :) I will be more careful about this when writing centuries in English the next time.
Also this poster on quora have a detailed list https://www.quora.com/Why-do-we-write-century-numbers-with-I...
A 1914 English translation of his 1499 Italian books from archive.org:
https://archive.org/details/ancientdoubleent00geij
https://archive.org/details/ancientdoubleent00geij
The Medici family supposedly invented it. Very fascinating family.
https://bigthink.com/culture-religion/how-the-medici-family-...
https://bigthink.com/culture-religion/how-the-medici-family-...
Those are all different things and different forms of borrowing though.
When someone borrows against cheese they are borrowing against existing personal property for which labor has already been supplied rather than borrowing against future earnings. The lender does not need to verify income and credit, just inspect the purity of the cheese. With a home loan, the owner is borrowing against the personal property in the building, as well as the common property in the land and the future earnings of other people such as their tenants.
Additionally in the case of a co-op, the interest charges the organization collects on the debt are usually reinvested locally for the benefit members.
When someone borrows against cheese they are borrowing against existing personal property for which labor has already been supplied rather than borrowing against future earnings. The lender does not need to verify income and credit, just inspect the purity of the cheese. With a home loan, the owner is borrowing against the personal property in the building, as well as the common property in the land and the future earnings of other people such as their tenants.
Additionally in the case of a co-op, the interest charges the organization collects on the debt are usually reinvested locally for the benefit members.
You can borrow against most assets whose values are easy to assess and are readily resellable, and which will keep that value, yes. What’s significant here is cheese being in that category. It’s still (like a home or publicly traded stock) the extreme exception, not the rule. I certainly can’t borrow against the cheese in my refrigerator (“fridge”), so it’s weird that you’d trivialize the case of co-op cheese as part of a totally normal trend of being able to borrow against anything.
Most of the stuff in my living room, for example, would not be able to secure a loan, except maybe a pawn loan on undesirable terms.
And it’s really weird to look at credit cards as an example of the same thing. “Your ability to earn and repay” is not generally classified as an “asset” except maybe metaphorically — not a financial/accounting sense.
Most of the stuff in my living room, for example, would not be able to secure a loan, except maybe a pawn loan on undesirable terms.
And it’s really weird to look at credit cards as an example of the same thing. “Your ability to earn and repay” is not generally classified as an “asset” except maybe metaphorically — not a financial/accounting sense.
“Blessed are the cheese makers”
"Not meant to be taken literally, it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products."
What type of cheese do you make?
This made me laugh so hard, not an ounce of bad intent to the previous post.
I learned a lot about Parmegiano Reggiano when I was working at Whole Foods. I was told they crack more wheels than any other grocery chain in the world, and that each wheel cost like $1800.00 (well, it did pre-COVID). IIRC, on average, they crack one wheel per store per day.
You can also sign up for classes where you watch them crack a wheel and then do a sample of various cheese flavors.
It is interesting to find out more about the production side of these wheels. Thank you!
You can also sign up for classes where you watch them crack a wheel and then do a sample of various cheese flavors.
It is interesting to find out more about the production side of these wheels. Thank you!
Embedding these chips is neither difficult nor expensively high-tech, and verification isn't performed by the cheesemaker: why shouldn't small establishments participate in the program?
On an overseas store shelf the alternative is between real Parmigiano-Reggiano (if the experimentation is successful, with a chip) and counterfeit shit, not between different cheesemakers of the consortium (who, if they care, adopt their own trademarks and branding for particularly good cheese at premium prices).
On an overseas store shelf the alternative is between real Parmigiano-Reggiano (if the experimentation is successful, with a chip) and counterfeit shit, not between different cheesemakers of the consortium (who, if they care, adopt their own trademarks and branding for particularly good cheese at premium prices).
On an overseas store shelf the alternative is between real Parmigiano-Reggiano (if the experimentation is successful, with a chip) and counterfeit shit, not between different cheesemakers of the consortium
On my overseas store shelf I have a choice between 3-5 different brands of real Parmigiano-Reggiano, with the most expensive one being twice the price of the cheapest one, so there is obviously some competition going on. The only other real competitor is Grana Padano, which most people consider a cheaper substitute.
Of course one or more of those brands claiming to be Parmigiano-Reggiano might very well be fake and I'd have no way of knowing.
On my overseas store shelf I have a choice between 3-5 different brands of real Parmigiano-Reggiano, with the most expensive one being twice the price of the cheapest one, so there is obviously some competition going on. The only other real competitor is Grana Padano, which most people consider a cheaper substitute.
Of course one or more of those brands claiming to be Parmigiano-Reggiano might very well be fake and I'd have no way of knowing.
what i want to know is how can such a small community have so much clout in european politics that they managed to create the “Geographical Indication” so that no one else can create their own parmigiano cheese. do they fear competition that much? does their product really offer nothing extra compared to a parmigiano produced anywhere else?
The different formal varieties of geographical indications and restricted names are commonly adopted for cheese, wine, and many other quality foods. It only takes a critical mass of motivated makers and a reasonable traditional product, not "clout in European politics"; Parmigiano-Reggiano is merely popular, easy to imitate, and therefore in need of protection.
You don't really need political clout directly, though it helps to get politicians in ones country to be invested in the project. Quite often it's politicians that directly start working on this, even.
The "protected designation of origin" is essentially a trademark that helps ensure that if you buy something marked "Parmigiano Reggiano" or "Parmesan", it's going to be cheese done using specific recipe, coming from its traditional, original region. It doesn't stop you from using the same recipe elsewhere, it just means you can't sell it as being the same. PDOs are generally used to protect local traditional products, though politics can get a bit cutthroat about it (I recall some... hot discussions regarding PDO for vodka)
The "protected designation of origin" is essentially a trademark that helps ensure that if you buy something marked "Parmigiano Reggiano" or "Parmesan", it's going to be cheese done using specific recipe, coming from its traditional, original region. It doesn't stop you from using the same recipe elsewhere, it just means you can't sell it as being the same. PDOs are generally used to protect local traditional products, though politics can get a bit cutthroat about it (I recall some... hot discussions regarding PDO for vodka)
Imagine a kansas farm producing texan beef.
Then a nebraskan farm joining in.
What's to stop ottowa from taking a slice of the pie?
I found technical details about the device:
https://www.isenet.it/product/pharmaseq-products/
It's tiny (500 microns), passive, photocell-powered (you point a laser at it), and encapsulated in an inert SiO2 coating.
https://www.isenet.it/product/pharmaseq-products/
It's tiny (500 microns), passive, photocell-powered (you point a laser at it), and encapsulated in an inert SiO2 coating.
That confirms something I suspected: blockchain adds nothing to this solution, and is present only because of the fad.
I still don't get what it adds over a unique QR code.
A QR code is easy to copy? Im guessing this isn't.
Lol why would it be more difficult with blockchain?
If it is a chip, then maybe. Even more if the chip was like a yubikey with challenge-response (but it isn't).
If it is a chip, then maybe. Even more if the chip was like a yubikey with challenge-response (but it isn't).
You can copy it, but there ought to be some record of where the cheese is supposed to be. If it was sold to California but found in New York, something fishy going on. But ya, I guess just making it uncopyable would be simpler I suppose.
Where does it say anything about blockchains in the article and how often do you think about how much you hate them?
From TFA:
"The innovation combines food-safe Casein labels with the p-Chip micro transponder — a blockchain crypto-anchor that creates a digital 'twin' for physical items. This scannable new food tag is smaller than a grain of salt and highly durable, delivering next-generation visibility and traceability."
I, for one, had never heard the term "blockchain crypto-anchor" before.
"The innovation combines food-safe Casein labels with the p-Chip micro transponder — a blockchain crypto-anchor that creates a digital 'twin' for physical items. This scannable new food tag is smaller than a grain of salt and highly durable, delivering next-generation visibility and traceability."
I, for one, had never heard the term "blockchain crypto-anchor" before.
[deleted]
Fascinating -- https://p-chip.com/solutions/
And the patent -- https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/bf/71/15/70b4303...
And the patent -- https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/bf/71/15/70b4303...
Looks like it's the same company (if anyone else was confused like me):
- "...p-Chip acquired PharmaSeq in the fall of 2021"
https://p-chip.com/meet-massimo-baio-long-time-team-member-a...
- "...p-Chip acquired PharmaSeq in the fall of 2021"
https://p-chip.com/meet-massimo-baio-long-time-team-member-a...
It looks like the patent covers an integrated on-chip solar cell. I wonder if the output is by on-chip LED or radio, and if they keep that a trade secret or if it is covered by patent also.
Yeah I had the same question. I didn’t see any mentions of radio in the patent, but the product description document [0] does say:
——
Is the radio frequency signal from the p-Chip harmful?
A. No. The radio signal transmitted by p-Chips is so faint that approval from the US Federal Communications Commission or similar agencies is not required. Emissions fall well below FCC radiated emission limits defined in CFR 47, 15.209.
——
The illuminating laser wand does have a radio receiver. More info in this related patent [1], especially at page 21.
[0] https://www.isenet.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/PharmaSeq_W...
[1] https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/43/da/03/c648387...
——
Is the radio frequency signal from the p-Chip harmful?
A. No. The radio signal transmitted by p-Chips is so faint that approval from the US Federal Communications Commission or similar agencies is not required. Emissions fall well below FCC radiated emission limits defined in CFR 47, 15.209.
——
The illuminating laser wand does have a radio receiver. More info in this related patent [1], especially at page 21.
[0] https://www.isenet.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/PharmaSeq_W...
[1] https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/43/da/03/c648387...
So, what percentage of these crack open during processing, and how poisonous are they without the sio2 casing? What about when they hit the sewer processing plant, and are eventually dumped.
Also, what sort of environmental impact does producing them have?
Hopefully they'll be forced to label products that have these things in them. Otherwise, I'll be switching to fake Parmesan.
Also, what sort of environmental impact does producing them have?
Hopefully they'll be forced to label products that have these things in them. Otherwise, I'll be switching to fake Parmesan.
If you’re eating the rind you probably already have some more basic health issues — those of a mechanical rather than chemical nature.
I've seen a few recipes where you steep the rinds in a liquid or a sauce to get more flavor.
Parmesan cheese rinds are tossed in soups or broths or used to infuse oils (e.g. olive oil).
Rind on some cheeses is the best bit: Gruyere e.g. In fact I'd buy it by the packet as a snack - like pork scratchings. If I knew anything about cheesemaking I'd make this my side gig.
What makes you think any chip would be harmful to ingest? You could happily eat most chips, if they were small enough, without any negative effects.
There's some hideously toxic metals in certain semiconductors, e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallium_arsenide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmium_telluride
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallium_arsenide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmium_telluride
I'd expect the mass of these metals that can be used in a 0.5mm chip to be negligible. Still, I don't like the idea of a future where these chips are used in many food items.
I don't suppose anyone has one of these chips? I'd be interested in taking die photos.
I know the company - it's a family business, focused on making great tools for scientists
Interesting that it is injected (how deep) yet can still be powered by a laser.
SiO2 is glass. So it's a micron-sized silicon chip inside a glass capsule.
...under x mm of cheese.
So if I'm the sort of person who eats my cheese rinds, I don't really have anything to worry about here.
Is it digestible, or rather passable in stools with no harm entailed?
My favorite part of Parmesan is the rind
My favorite part of Parmesan is the rind
Your standards for food should probably be higher than “passable in stools”. Not judging but that seems like a low bar no?
Doesn’t look edible to me.
It is not but it's half a millimeter and inert. I guess that all of us had sand in our mouths and occasionally ingested part of it. Furthermore we shouldn't have that part of the cheese.
The rind is very good for cooking sauces. You pull it out afterwards, but the chip could, of course, fall out into the sauce during cooking.
So if they put electronic sh*t into my food, I do not want to buy that anymore.
Probably it does not need to be declared, so I don't even know I am eating electronics.
So if they put electronic sh*t into my food, I do not want to buy that anymore.
Probably it does not need to be declared, so I don't even know I am eating electronics.
OT, but I just have to say, as someone who buys "Parmesan" cheese that typically hails from Wisconsin, there is just no comparison with legit Parmigiano-Reggiano. It's the same with "Gruyere" and Gruyère -- a wholly unique cheese with a depth of flavor and character that is just inimitable, no matter how good or faithful the imitation may be.
That being said, I'm not ashamed at all to say that the Parmesan I use most is the $4 wedge from Aldi.
That being said, I'm not ashamed at all to say that the Parmesan I use most is the $4 wedge from Aldi.
My most common consumption method for Parmigiano-Reggiano is standing in front of my fridge at 2am breaking chunks off the wedge, with a squeeze bottle of honey and whatever berries I have on hand. Can recommend.
You absolute degenerate.
That sounds delicious.
That sounds delicious.
A lot of cheeses benefit from very thin slicing - it emphasizes the crystallization of Parmigiano Regiano, the creaminess of a Havarti, or the everything of an Applewood smoked cheddar.
Boris, is that you? Get to work!
Try dunking it into truffled honey.
One thing I miss about my old place in the city was the ridiculously expensive market on my block that carried all of the "real" cheese. The real stuff was so fantastic and flavorful that I usually used far less of it, which partially offset the cost.
I also got a $20 jar of pasta sauce there once. I was embarrassed at how much I paid and didn't tell my wife. After her first taste, her reaction was "OMG, what is this? It's so good!". I took a taste and was blown away. Literally every taste just amazed me, so we kept getting it. I only recognized it by the label and never learned the brand, much to my chagrin (and my wallet's delight) when I moved away and never found it again.
I also got a $20 jar of pasta sauce there once. I was embarrassed at how much I paid and didn't tell my wife. After her first taste, her reaction was "OMG, what is this? It's so good!". I took a taste and was blown away. Literally every taste just amazed me, so we kept getting it. I only recognized it by the label and never learned the brand, much to my chagrin (and my wallet's delight) when I moved away and never found it again.
If you can get good canned tomatoes (I like the Flora brand San Marzano D.O.P, about $5.50 for a 28oz can), this is a great 20 minute recipe that will usually beat any pre-made sauce: https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1015987-classic-marinara...
Here’s a version by the same chef without the paywall: https://lidiasitaly.com/recipes/marinara-sauce-2/
Or as a compromise between time and taste, add crushed/chopped tomatoes to a bottled sauce.
Fresh is always better, even if you don't have acces to San Marazano tomatoes.
This tomato sauce recipe goes out the the poor guys here. I imagine we are the minority here?
1. Tomatoes--any kind. You will buy them initially to use them for sandwiches, and maybe a salad, but will be left over with a bowl of soft tomatoes at tge end of the week. The rest left older will start to rot, so why not make tomato sauce.
2. In any pot, put in 1/4 cup of olive oil.
3. Put in handful of fresh onions in the hot oil. (You can use dehydrated onion. Many commercial kitchens do.)
4. Add a few teaspoons of fresh garlic, or dehydrated garlic.
5. Add couple of teaspoons of salt, and a pinch of honey, or sugar. I used pancake syrup last night because I ran out of anything sweet.
(add a pinch of cayenne pepper, or black, if you like it spicy.)
Using a potato masher smash it all down. Cook 40 minutes on low.
You now have pasta sauce, or pizza sauce, for the week. Add butter when using it on pasta.
You now have sauce for noodles. Add a few pats of butter for pasta. Your guests won't know, but will like your sauce. Belive me restaurants use a lot of butter, and salt. There's a happy medium. A 1/2 tbs of butter will not kill you. The vegan in the group can use vegetarian butter substitute.
You want pizza?
You need dough?
1. luke warm water added to a large bowl. Add the yeast. Amount doesn't matter. A few teaspoons usually.
2. add some sugar, honey, or whatever. Last night I used pancake syrup.
3. Add high gluten flour if you can find it. Add any flour will do if that's all you have.
4. In the bowl mix it like you dislike it. Add more flour if necessary. Add more water if too dry. Just do it.
Pound that dough. After 20-30 minutes it should be the consistency of a male boob. (I have man boobs, and couldn't think of a politically correct example, but we have all all felt a fatty boob. It's just adipose tissue, and skin. Enough of my analogies you will never hear out of any cooks mouth.)
5. Cover that dough with a wet towel, saran wrap, or foil.
Let it rise in a warm kitchen. Since most of us don't have the right kitchen temp, turn on the oven for a a minute, and turn off. You want the temp between 80-120 degrees.
Put a pot holder on the rack and the bowl of dough goes on the rack. The pot holder acts as a gasket between the warm metal grates, and your bowl.
5. Let it rise for an hour. It's now ready to use for pizza dough, or freezing. You could punch it down again, and let it rise, but unless you have all the right quality ingredients, it dosen't matter. (you could add some oil oil to the dough.)
I'm poor, and have been cooking for myself, and my mom for years.
I was trained at Zesto's Cafe in the 80's by a owner who always accused me of stealing. I was unbelievably honest/ernest at the time. I didn't know how the wealthy lie, and cheat, daily.
I guess because I was in high school, with long hair. I did know other employees whom were stealing, but never said anything. I'm no rat. Then, or now.
Trust me tomato sauce, and pizza dough are easy to make.
Making good bread is very, very hard though.
So hard, I have heard French/Italian chefs gave up, and only buy from their baker. Something about the yeast in the air, and the right climate, along with the right stove.
This tomato sauce recipe goes out the the poor guys here. I imagine we are the minority here?
1. Tomatoes--any kind. You will buy them initially to use them for sandwiches, and maybe a salad, but will be left over with a bowl of soft tomatoes at tge end of the week. The rest left older will start to rot, so why not make tomato sauce.
2. In any pot, put in 1/4 cup of olive oil.
3. Put in handful of fresh onions in the hot oil. (You can use dehydrated onion. Many commercial kitchens do.)
4. Add a few teaspoons of fresh garlic, or dehydrated garlic.
5. Add couple of teaspoons of salt, and a pinch of honey, or sugar. I used pancake syrup last night because I ran out of anything sweet.
(add a pinch of cayenne pepper, or black, if you like it spicy.)
Using a potato masher smash it all down. Cook 40 minutes on low.
You now have pasta sauce, or pizza sauce, for the week. Add butter when using it on pasta.
You now have sauce for noodles. Add a few pats of butter for pasta. Your guests won't know, but will like your sauce. Belive me restaurants use a lot of butter, and salt. There's a happy medium. A 1/2 tbs of butter will not kill you. The vegan in the group can use vegetarian butter substitute.
You want pizza?
You need dough?
1. luke warm water added to a large bowl. Add the yeast. Amount doesn't matter. A few teaspoons usually.
2. add some sugar, honey, or whatever. Last night I used pancake syrup.
3. Add high gluten flour if you can find it. Add any flour will do if that's all you have.
4. In the bowl mix it like you dislike it. Add more flour if necessary. Add more water if too dry. Just do it.
Pound that dough. After 20-30 minutes it should be the consistency of a male boob. (I have man boobs, and couldn't think of a politically correct example, but we have all all felt a fatty boob. It's just adipose tissue, and skin. Enough of my analogies you will never hear out of any cooks mouth.)
5. Cover that dough with a wet towel, saran wrap, or foil.
Let it rise in a warm kitchen. Since most of us don't have the right kitchen temp, turn on the oven for a a minute, and turn off. You want the temp between 80-120 degrees.
Put a pot holder on the rack and the bowl of dough goes on the rack. The pot holder acts as a gasket between the warm metal grates, and your bowl.
5. Let it rise for an hour. It's now ready to use for pizza dough, or freezing. You could punch it down again, and let it rise, but unless you have all the right quality ingredients, it dosen't matter. (you could add some oil oil to the dough.)
I'm poor, and have been cooking for myself, and my mom for years.
I was trained at Zesto's Cafe in the 80's by a owner who always accused me of stealing. I was unbelievably honest/ernest at the time. I didn't know how the wealthy lie, and cheat, daily.
I guess because I was in high school, with long hair. I did know other employees whom were stealing, but never said anything. I'm no rat. Then, or now.
Trust me tomato sauce, and pizza dough are easy to make.
Making good bread is very, very hard though.
So hard, I have heard French/Italian chefs gave up, and only buy from their baker. Something about the yeast in the air, and the right climate, along with the right stove.
A couple comments:
1) I like to add fresh or dried basil to my tomato sauces. I also grow oregano (it's more honest to say that I can't kill it since it spread everywhere!) and will add a little also.
2) Pizza dough does best when made on the "wet" (higher hydration) side. I learned about these: https://www.amazon.com/Winco-APZS-16-Winware-Seamless-Alumin... from a commercial pizza maker and never looked back. Cooks evenly top & bottom in my oven. It's become one of those things I can't believe I ever lived without. Treat them like a cast iron skillet (another good thing to make pizza in) and don't wash them.
1) I like to add fresh or dried basil to my tomato sauces. I also grow oregano (it's more honest to say that I can't kill it since it spread everywhere!) and will add a little also.
2) Pizza dough does best when made on the "wet" (higher hydration) side. I learned about these: https://www.amazon.com/Winco-APZS-16-Winware-Seamless-Alumin... from a commercial pizza maker and never looked back. Cooks evenly top & bottom in my oven. It's become one of those things I can't believe I ever lived without. Treat them like a cast iron skillet (another good thing to make pizza in) and don't wash them.
Fresh is always better, even if you don't have acces to San Marazano tomatoes.
Depends very much on where you live. Most tomatoes I can buy make far worse sauce than canned tomatoes unless I am willing to spend a lot of money. And if I'm spending the sort of money I have to spend to get good fresh tomatoes I'm not 'wasting' them in a sauce. Hell even making sauce with the cheapest tomatoes in the store will no doubt cost me at least twice as much as using halfway decent canned tomatoes for a worse result.
Depends very much on where you live. Most tomatoes I can buy make far worse sauce than canned tomatoes unless I am willing to spend a lot of money. And if I'm spending the sort of money I have to spend to get good fresh tomatoes I'm not 'wasting' them in a sauce. Hell even making sauce with the cheapest tomatoes in the store will no doubt cost me at least twice as much as using halfway decent canned tomatoes for a worse result.
Canned tomatoes? Yikes. If you’re trying to beat premise sauces at least get some local fresh tomatoes and have a go and making it from scratch. The acidic flavour of canned tomatoes is horrible in my opinion compared to fresh tomatoes.
Fresh tomatoes are Usally pretty bland 11 months of the year. So canned is the way to go because they are ripe when canned and retain most of the flavors
You seem to mean off-season where you're saying fresh.
They are red they look like tomatoes they just taste like nothing that’s what I mean. Those are available most of the time the other kind almost never
I know what you mean. I get to eat really good tomatoes every few years, and just for a few days, then they are gone.
The good stuff spoils pretty quickly, too. It's not just the price that makes them uncommon
The good stuff spoils pretty quickly, too. It's not just the price that makes them uncommon
Grow your own or make friends with someone that does. I have more than I can give away during peak season
when they're off season, is the flavor still better? no use using something that tastes worse and consoling yourself that it would have been tasty had it been a different month
For the ~1 month I have access to local fresh tomatoes, I'm going to be eating them in fresh preparations like caprese salad, BLTs, etc. rather than using them on sauces. The remaining 11 months of the year, canned tomatoes are just fine.
I think this is a smart move. Your examples are cases where fresh tomatoes outperform canned. Sauces, not so much
If you can actually get 'local fresh' tomatoes, yes absolutely, but the rest of the time (the vast majority of the year, for a start) canned are going to beat the socks off them.
(Also there's canned and there's canned.. it's worth paying for unless you just want red broth.)
(Also there's canned and there's canned.. it's worth paying for unless you just want red broth.)
We have access to some of the best tomatoes in the world, but adhere to the rule of canned tomatoes only for sauce! The acidity is key.
"whole is better than ground" is a general rule in the food industry
canned whole tomatoes > tomato sauce
canned whole tomatoes > tomato sauce
Wow, I didn't expect such a great discussion on tomatoes and sauces. I have a few things to check out.
My own tomato story comes from another place in the city where I had a private roofdeck. It was basically full sun all day long. I planted 4 tomato plants, which were amazingly productive, and the tomatoes were so delicious that we ate them with lunch and dinner almost every day. My favorite summer snack became (and still is) a slice of fresh tomato topped with a slice of fresh mozzarella, lightly drizzled with a "green" olive oil, and garnished with fresh basil.
My own tomato story comes from another place in the city where I had a private roofdeck. It was basically full sun all day long. I planted 4 tomato plants, which were amazingly productive, and the tomatoes were so delicious that we ate them with lunch and dinner almost every day. My favorite summer snack became (and still is) a slice of fresh tomato topped with a slice of fresh mozzarella, lightly drizzled with a "green" olive oil, and garnished with fresh basil.
Pianogrillo?
This was in the mid-2000's, so my memory is pretty fuzzy. I'll definitely check that brand out, though.
It's somewhat sad that in the US there is no enforcement (probably entirely deliberately as a protectionary measure) of food marks.
In the EU, "Parmesan" cheese must be legit Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese. [1] I'd presume that Grueyere also has the same protections of origin (despite being Swiss and not actually in the EU).
It's the same for a whole plethora of local products [2] and thus consumers know a) what they're actually buying and b) have the confidence that it's a legit product.
[1] https://www.dw.com/en/eu-court-says-parmesan-cheese-must-com... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PDO_products_by_countr...
In the EU, "Parmesan" cheese must be legit Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese. [1] I'd presume that Grueyere also has the same protections of origin (despite being Swiss and not actually in the EU).
It's the same for a whole plethora of local products [2] and thus consumers know a) what they're actually buying and b) have the confidence that it's a legit product.
[1] https://www.dw.com/en/eu-court-says-parmesan-cheese-must-com... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PDO_products_by_countr...
> In the EU, "Parmesan" cheese must be legit Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese.
Yep, but it's also relatively cheap if you live anywhere near italy... In slovenia, you can get it even for 12-15eur/kg in some italian discount stores (think aldi, but italian), eg: http://vsikatalogi.si/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Eurospin_ak... (i know it's from 2016, it's just an example).
Getting stuff that you see in american youtube videos is a bit harder here... even "american cheese" (the artifical processed one) is impossible to find.
Yep, but it's also relatively cheap if you live anywhere near italy... In slovenia, you can get it even for 12-15eur/kg in some italian discount stores (think aldi, but italian), eg: http://vsikatalogi.si/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Eurospin_ak... (i know it's from 2016, it's just an example).
Getting stuff that you see in american youtube videos is a bit harder here... even "american cheese" (the artifical processed one) is impossible to find.
European wine producers were able to get the US to enforce this, after a lot of difficulty. It used to be you could buy Californian “champagne”.
Try aging your supermarket-bought cheese (the non-AOP parmesan and gruyere).
You can do so in your kitchen fridge, but stick the cheeses in a small plastic container with a tight-fitting lid because they need high moisture (at least 70% - and that's relative moisture).
Open the box when you see condensation forming on its walls and wipe it down with a paper towel. Then close it again. That's about all the work you need to do.
Parmesan should improve markedly in about a year. Gruyere in three to six months.
Oh- unwrap them first from any vacuum bags they happen to be in. Cheese doesn't age in a vacuum.
It's fine if they're already sliced. Would be hard to fit in the fridge otherwise anyway. Depending on your fridge.
You can do so in your kitchen fridge, but stick the cheeses in a small plastic container with a tight-fitting lid because they need high moisture (at least 70% - and that's relative moisture).
Open the box when you see condensation forming on its walls and wipe it down with a paper towel. Then close it again. That's about all the work you need to do.
Parmesan should improve markedly in about a year. Gruyere in three to six months.
Oh- unwrap them first from any vacuum bags they happen to be in. Cheese doesn't age in a vacuum.
It's fine if they're already sliced. Would be hard to fit in the fridge otherwise anyway. Depending on your fridge.
Is there a faster way to age parmesan?
That is the fast way. Normally it should be aged when it's still a head of cheese and not a slice in someone's fridge. Far as I can tell that takes more than a year, just because it's such a big head of cheese. The advantage of aging a mere slice is that it ages many times faster.
Thank you cheese_goddess :prayer_emoji:
You also need a :cheese_emoji: to please the cheese_goddess :P
The weird thing is, I don't see that much of a price difference between high-end "domestic" parmesan cheeses and the proper Parmigiano-Reggiano. The Saravecchio Parmesan (that's the Wisconsin domestic you're referring to, I assume) is about $17.99/lb, and the real, imported stuff is about $20/lb--even cheaper at places like Costco. So why not just get the real thing?
The big difference in cost is in the number of months of aging. Cheap Parmigiano-Reggiano might be 20-24 months old. It gets much better tasting, and more expensive, at 36 months, and better still (and more costly) at 40 months. We'd buy Parmigiano-Reggiano at Iper La Grande, a massive grocery store (imagine if a Wegmans and a Target merged) in northern Italy; there 40 month old would be about twice the price as 24 month old.
That some really odd pricing, there's no investment out there where you could purchase for x, let it sit for 16 months, and then sell for 2x. You'd think the manufacturers or some other entity would just be buying all the 24month to age another 16 months to double their money (less some warehouse / transport overhead).
This isn't just stacking palettes of crackers. Parmesan requires climate-controlled warehouses, and must be often tested, repositioned, and (yes) guarded. It's also a more risky investment.
It's not clear they're referring to Sarvecchio. Some people think Sarvecchio is as good as real Parmigiano.
Where are you buying your Wisconsin cheese for that much? I’m in the southeast and at Publix I can buy a wedge of Wisconsin Parmesan for half the price of the Italian Parmesan.
Just using the brand in question:
https://www.target.com/p/sartori-sarvecchio-parmesan-cheese-...
https://www.wisconsincheesemart.com/products/parmesan-sarvec...
The price is about $7, but you'll notice it's only about 1/3 of a pound, so the per-pound price is $20-21. Which, again, tracks with what I've been saying. The only difference is you might be forced to buy a pound of the real stuff when you get a wedge of Parmigiano Reggiano, so there's a bigger upfront cost, but you'll definitely go through the stuff. It's delicious grated, it's delicious on its own, and it freezes well.
https://www.target.com/p/sartori-sarvecchio-parmesan-cheese-...
https://www.wisconsincheesemart.com/products/parmesan-sarvec...
The price is about $7, but you'll notice it's only about 1/3 of a pound, so the per-pound price is $20-21. Which, again, tracks with what I've been saying. The only difference is you might be forced to buy a pound of the real stuff when you get a wedge of Parmigiano Reggiano, so there's a bigger upfront cost, but you'll definitely go through the stuff. It's delicious grated, it's delicious on its own, and it freezes well.
I just checked. The real stuff from my local Costco cost me $13.99/lb. At that price, there's no good reason for me to buy anything else.
I swear the buyers at Costco must be living their best life.
Indeed. I've learned about the fake Gruyère from this thread. Why bother when the real thing is not that expensive?
Side note, but Costco sells a full wheel of real-deal Parmigiano-Reggiano for what comes out to a little more than $13/lb. If you have friends or family who like cheese, splitting one up makes for a fun afternoon, and the hunks you get will last for a good long while in the fridge.
One lucky thing about living in Melbourne, Australia is the large Italian migrant community here (the largest number of Italian's living outside of Italy, live here).
Meaning that we have few dedicated markets here that import goods from Italy, including legitimate Parmigiano Reggiano (and Pecorino Romano which is worth trying). The real stuff has these wonderful salt crystals in it that crunch as you eat it.
Meaning that we have few dedicated markets here that import goods from Italy, including legitimate Parmigiano Reggiano (and Pecorino Romano which is worth trying). The real stuff has these wonderful salt crystals in it that crunch as you eat it.
Nothing beats Cacio E Pepe made with the real deal Pecorino. So simple and deceptively difficult to master but the payoff is divine.
> a wholly unique cheese
Not unique - there's a cheese-shop up the road that sells a mature Gruyère that is quite different from their standard-price Gruyère, which in turn is quite unlike supermarket Gruyère. And that's all on the Swiss side of the border - Comté is the same stuff, but made 100 metres away.
Not unique - there's a cheese-shop up the road that sells a mature Gruyère that is quite different from their standard-price Gruyère, which in turn is quite unlike supermarket Gruyère. And that's all on the Swiss side of the border - Comté is the same stuff, but made 100 metres away.
Comté tastes similar, but it's still different than Gruyère IMHO.
Until 1976, I had never heard of Comté; they sold that cheese as Gruyére, even though it was made in France. In that year, the AOC regulations came fully into force, and it became illegal to sell cheese made in France as Gruyére.
There are many regional variations and qualities of Comté, too.
When De Gaulle asked "How can you govern a country with 200 different cheeses", he was underestimating badly.
There are many regional variations and qualities of Comté, too.
When De Gaulle asked "How can you govern a country with 200 different cheeses", he was underestimating badly.
Until 1976, are you sure? This docu shows "Le Fromage de Comté" and it's dated 1927:
https://youtu.be/icu-oMerROI
One of the legends points out the similarity with Gruyére, but it still calls the French cheese Comté:
"Le fromage de Comté, analogue du Gruyére suisse, se differencie de l' Emmental..."
https://youtu.be/icu-oMerROI
One of the legends points out the similarity with Gruyére, but it still calls the French cheese Comté:
"Le fromage de Comté, analogue du Gruyére suisse, se differencie de l' Emmental..."
Well, I could be wrong. The AOC rules certainly came fully into force then. And as a kid in France <= 15, I'd buy Gruyére in the grocers, and it wouldn't have the snazzy Swiss cross printed on the rind. Perhaps until then, "Gruyére" was a generic term, and they'd sell you Gruyére or Comté, whichever they had.
It was used as a generic term. Even now, people commonly say “gruyère” when they mean “emmental”.
Right, so I guess the video is evidence that the producers of Comté were trying to establish an identity for their product, separate from Gruyère, but consumers, as usual, used brand names as product category names.
That's very common. In Greece for instance there's a PDO cheese called "kasseri" but all of northern Greece calls all hard or yellow cheeses "kasseri". Conversely, they call all white cheeses "tyri" ("cheese"), which usually (but not always) means feta, which is in turn a PDO name for a specific kind of white cheese made in certain areas of Greece only.
I guess it's the same thing with French cheeses and Italian cheeses, and every other place's cheeses. Heh.
That's very common. In Greece for instance there's a PDO cheese called "kasseri" but all of northern Greece calls all hard or yellow cheeses "kasseri". Conversely, they call all white cheeses "tyri" ("cheese"), which usually (but not always) means feta, which is in turn a PDO name for a specific kind of white cheese made in certain areas of Greece only.
I guess it's the same thing with French cheeses and Italian cheeses, and every other place's cheeses. Heh.
There's been a couple of comments suggesting that emmental and gruyère are easily confused. I don't find that, with one exception.
With the help of my local cheese shop (mentioned upthread) I came across what they call "proper" emmental, which is a very mature emmental, a bit like a mature gouda. Only a bit rubbery. And silly expensive, but very nice.
With the help of my local cheese shop (mentioned upthread) I came across what they call "proper" emmental, which is a very mature emmental, a bit like a mature gouda. Only a bit rubbery. And silly expensive, but very nice.
French Gruyère now has AOC status as well, but it must have holes to distinguish it from the Swiss one: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruy%C3%A8re_fran%C3%A7ais
I'm surprised that cheese imported from America is cheaper than Italian cheese. (I'm presuming you're in the EU, based on your Aldi comment.)
Aldi does have a significant US presence https://www.aldi.us/stores/
They can't be in the EU, as "Parmesan" is a PDO name and cheese with the name must come from the region of Italy.
I thought "parmigiano" is the DOP name and "parmesan" is a free for all. Apparently, I'd misunderstood:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmesan
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parmesan
[deleted]
And American Cheddar and British Cheddar.
There's plenty of great American cheddars that are as good as anything I've had from the UK.
I don't believe it's not doable, but all I've seen of North American supermarkets is 'cheddar-style' processed cheese and similar abominations; is food-buying just different, does anyone wanting half-decent cheese go to a cheesemonger or farmers' market or something?
Every American supermarket sells blocks of perfectly good, normal cheese. You can get Vermont cheddar all over the northeast, at the very least.
Where you might be disappointed is if you like "extra mature" British cheddar, which is not really equivalent to "extra sharp" American cheddar. Personally I find both unappealing.
Where you might be disappointed is if you like "extra mature" British cheddar, which is not really equivalent to "extra sharp" American cheddar. Personally I find both unappealing.
> Where you might be disappointed is if you like "extra mature" British cheddar,
For cheddar specifically, yes, I'd hesitate to buy anything younger, and if I had to I'd only use it in cooking.
Maybe that partly explains my experience/surprise, but a sibling comment shows photos which though not close-up seem much more like what I 'expected', or rather was surprised to notice an apparent lack of.
For cheddar specifically, yes, I'd hesitate to buy anything younger, and if I had to I'd only use it in cooking.
Maybe that partly explains my experience/surprise, but a sibling comment shows photos which though not close-up seem much more like what I 'expected', or rather was surprised to notice an apparent lack of.
http://www.ourdailycheese.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/img...
https://i.imgur.com/WWOuGGW.jpg
https://www.theneighborhoodmoms.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/...
https://s3.amazonaws.com/spoonuniversi-wpengine/spoonunivers...
https://www.mcall.com/resizer/TMbbZ3l7Ik9C7bvyY7rc6Kce43c=/1...
https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-RZ602_NYCHEE_P_...
https://i.imgur.com/WWOuGGW.jpg
https://www.theneighborhoodmoms.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/...
https://s3.amazonaws.com/spoonuniversi-wpengine/spoonunivers...
https://www.mcall.com/resizer/TMbbZ3l7Ik9C7bvyY7rc6Kce43c=/1...
https://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-RZ602_NYCHEE_P_...
That's more like it! Just wasn't my (very limited) experience. Thanks.
You haven’t seen most North American supermarkets, then. Many, many supermarkets except the cheapest of the cheap carry real domestic and imported cheddar for at least 10-15 years.
No, I haven't! It just stood out in the ones I did.
(I didn't mean the first part as a claim to expertise; the second was a genuine question.)
(I didn't mean the first part as a claim to expertise; the second was a genuine question.)
Sorry that I was a bit aggressive. Cheese is a Very Important Matter. :)
I noticed "Fancy cheese" (not velveeta) showing up regularly in the 2000s, when I was starting to shop for myself, and as my cheesy experience grew, "good cheese" like the better stinky ones were more available probably 4-5 years later. Now, even in my local supermarket which is considered the "worst" of all the grocery stores in the area, I can get authentic cheeses from a variety of places.
I don't think people's tastes evolved as much as the supply chain for getting these cheeses around has improved much in recent years, making tasty cheese super affordable.
I noticed "Fancy cheese" (not velveeta) showing up regularly in the 2000s, when I was starting to shop for myself, and as my cheesy experience grew, "good cheese" like the better stinky ones were more available probably 4-5 years later. Now, even in my local supermarket which is considered the "worst" of all the grocery stores in the area, I can get authentic cheeses from a variety of places.
I don't think people's tastes evolved as much as the supply chain for getting these cheeses around has improved much in recent years, making tasty cheese super affordable.
That's not the same, Cheddar is a process not (just) a place and Cheddar isn't protected as a origin.
Most British Cheddar isn't from Cheddar either.
And there's plenty of really good mature Canadian Cheddar for example.
Most British Cheddar isn't from Cheddar either.
And there's plenty of really good mature Canadian Cheddar for example.
The process you’re thinking of is cheddaring. Many cheeses are cheddared but aren’t Cheddar.
> according to the Parmigiano Reggiano Consortium (the official trade group for the cheese) the amount of fraud is almost as big as product sales: Authentic Parmigiano Reggiano sales are around $2.44 billion while fraudulent cheese is a $2.08 billion market.
I wonder what they consider fraud. Is it that anything which says "parmesan cheese" on it without being official Parmigiano Reggiano is considered fraud? That is to say, the Kraft Parmesan they mentioned earlier would count as cheese fraud (I don't think it is, since as they say nobody is confused about what they're getting).
Or, do they literally mean there is as much cheese sold under the false pretense of being Parmigiano Reggiano cheese, with fake stamps and serial numbers, and so on?
I wonder what they consider fraud. Is it that anything which says "parmesan cheese" on it without being official Parmigiano Reggiano is considered fraud? That is to say, the Kraft Parmesan they mentioned earlier would count as cheese fraud (I don't think it is, since as they say nobody is confused about what they're getting).
Or, do they literally mean there is as much cheese sold under the false pretense of being Parmigiano Reggiano cheese, with fake stamps and serial numbers, and so on?
I believe it's the latter.
> the FDA investigated a cheese factory in Pennsylvania and found that the cheese it was selling as “100% grated parmesan” was actually cut with fillers like wood pulp and contained exactly 0% real Parmesan cheese, using instead cheaper varieties like Swiss and cheddar. That particular producer was busted and heavily fined due to a tip-off from a former employee, but similar practices are still widespread.
> According to Nicola Bertinelli, President of the Parmigiano-Reggiano Cheese Consortium, which works to promote authentic Parmigiano-Reggiano and fight counterfeit versions, the estimated turnover of fake parmesan worldwide is over 2 billion dollars annually — more than 15 times the amount of genuine Parmigiano-Reggiano exported each year
You won't find much fake Parmigiano here in Italy, which is their largest market (IMO the amount of fake Parmigiano in Italy is so insignificant that we can count it as zero).
There are other varieties, like for example Grana Padano, which are legit alternatives, but don't pretend to be Parmigiano Reggiano.
It would be like trying to sell a fake Ferrari here or a fake Tullamore D.E.W. in Ireland.
> the FDA investigated a cheese factory in Pennsylvania and found that the cheese it was selling as “100% grated parmesan” was actually cut with fillers like wood pulp and contained exactly 0% real Parmesan cheese, using instead cheaper varieties like Swiss and cheddar. That particular producer was busted and heavily fined due to a tip-off from a former employee, but similar practices are still widespread.
> According to Nicola Bertinelli, President of the Parmigiano-Reggiano Cheese Consortium, which works to promote authentic Parmigiano-Reggiano and fight counterfeit versions, the estimated turnover of fake parmesan worldwide is over 2 billion dollars annually — more than 15 times the amount of genuine Parmigiano-Reggiano exported each year
You won't find much fake Parmigiano here in Italy, which is their largest market (IMO the amount of fake Parmigiano in Italy is so insignificant that we can count it as zero).
There are other varieties, like for example Grana Padano, which are legit alternatives, but don't pretend to be Parmigiano Reggiano.
It would be like trying to sell a fake Ferrari here or a fake Tullamore D.E.W. in Ireland.
> cut with fillers like wood pulp
Label fraud aside, I really don't understand the vitriol that gets directed against grated cheese being sold with cellulose. It's only there to make the cheese shake out better (which it does well, you can buy grated cheese without cellulose to compare it to) And besides, there's nothing wrong with cellulose in the first place. You eat loads of cellulose every time you eat lettuce. Sure they get it from trees, but so what? I really don't see what the big deal is, assuming the labels are accurate. The fraud is a serious matter, but the "wood pulp" is inoffensive.
Label fraud aside, I really don't understand the vitriol that gets directed against grated cheese being sold with cellulose. It's only there to make the cheese shake out better (which it does well, you can buy grated cheese without cellulose to compare it to) And besides, there's nothing wrong with cellulose in the first place. You eat loads of cellulose every time you eat lettuce. Sure they get it from trees, but so what? I really don't see what the big deal is, assuming the labels are accurate. The fraud is a serious matter, but the "wood pulp" is inoffensive.
It's not that the cellulose is harmful, but that it might be used as filler in quantities far in excess of what is necessary for preventing caking. Calling it "wood pulp" is pointless scaremongering, I agree.
Cellulose on pregrated cheese is also supposed to impair melting, but I've always questioned how strong this effect might be. I've used grated cheese that melts wonderfully and grated cheese that might as well be plastic, and that's generally been correlated with the price of the cheese. Maybe cheaper cheese has more cellulose, but in my experience it's also drier and more rubbery, and melting is influenced by moisture content.
Cellulose on pregrated cheese is also supposed to impair melting, but I've always questioned how strong this effect might be. I've used grated cheese that melts wonderfully and grated cheese that might as well be plastic, and that's generally been correlated with the price of the cheese. Maybe cheaper cheese has more cellulose, but in my experience it's also drier and more rubbery, and melting is influenced by moisture content.
It seems to be fashionable to see a corporate conspiracy in everything.
From there, it's just a few more steps before people think that Bill Gates is using the tracking chips in the Parmesan to track people at all times, cackling in his secret underground lair.
From there, it's just a few more steps before people think that Bill Gates is using the tracking chips in the Parmesan to track people at all times, cackling in his secret underground lair.
If it’s no big deal why don’t they put “wood pulp” on the packaging? The fact it saves them money is too convenient by half and if they want to sell it they should be forced to disclose how they’re making it shake easier.
When they're following the law, which is most of the time, they put "cellulose" in the ingredients list on the package. This sort of product is usually not mislabeled. In that case it wasn't, and the company was rightly busted for it.
It isn't called "wood pulp" in the ingredient list because it isn't wood pulp, it's cellulose powder derived from wood pulp (or cotton.) Listing cellulose as "wood pulp" would be like listing gelatin as "pig".
It isn't called "wood pulp" in the ingredient list because it isn't wood pulp, it's cellulose powder derived from wood pulp (or cotton.) Listing cellulose as "wood pulp" would be like listing gelatin as "pig".
In a lot of cases these same industries co-wrote the law so it gets a bit circular to cite the law as justification. But thanks for the longer explanation. I still feel they should be required to put what it’s derived from. Listing gelatin as “gelatin derived from pig” would be more helpful to make informed consumer choices.
If the label says 100% parmesean but the contents is 0% parmesean, I have 0% faith that the included wood pulp is safe for consumption. Lettuce is regulated; sawdust filler in fraudulent product (from the local PT lumber mill, perhaps?) is not.
That sounds like the former, to be honest. What I meant was, is there a black market of the big wheels of fake parmesan, with forged serial numbers, claiming to be approved by whatever body controls the name Parmigiano Reggiano. A plastic bag of grated cheese that says "100% grated parmesan" feels like it's not trying to claim to be real Parmigiano Reggiano. I can see why a Consortium would want to impose a strict definition in order to protect their product.
Yes there is.
The problem is that it's a real black market, the cheese is stolen and sold on the black market without any assurance that it was handled or aged in the correct way, just as you would imagine in a black market.
So even if the source material is legit, the final product being sold is probably not.
And the illegal profits are hard to quantify, because it's a black market after all.
> there is a thriving black market, as an estimated $7 million in Italian Parmesan cheese has been stolen in just the last two years. Parmesan cheese has proven to be an ideal target for culinary criminals. In order to be certified Parmiggiano Reggiano, the cheese must age for at least a year.
The problem is that it's a real black market, the cheese is stolen and sold on the black market without any assurance that it was handled or aged in the correct way, just as you would imagine in a black market.
So even if the source material is legit, the final product being sold is probably not.
And the illegal profits are hard to quantify, because it's a black market after all.
> there is a thriving black market, as an estimated $7 million in Italian Parmesan cheese has been stolen in just the last two years. Parmesan cheese has proven to be an ideal target for culinary criminals. In order to be certified Parmiggiano Reggiano, the cheese must age for at least a year.
From my memory of reading Real Food, Fake Food, they don't care about the term "parmesan"--that term has been rendered generic, much like "champagne" in the US. But "Parmigiano Reggiano" is a protected term with a PDO ("protected designation of origin"). That's the one they care about.
[0]https://www.amazon.com/Real-Food-Youre-Eating-About/dp/16162...
[0]https://www.amazon.com/Real-Food-Youre-Eating-About/dp/16162...
Actually “champagne” in the US is not a generic term: https://www.terroir-france.com/wine-faq/american-champagne.h...
There are a small handful of producers that are grandfathered in with being able to call it that though.
There are a small handful of producers that are grandfathered in with being able to call it that though.
Thanks, this is the answer to my question!
Well I hope there's a way to remove those trackers, I always put the rinds in soups and stuff so it would piss me off a lot to learn there's some non-food related stuff in it.
Presumably it's embedded in the wax, which is already non-food and can be cut off.
Right, what kinds of heavy metals are they introducing into something that should be edible?
YOU WOULDN'T DOWNLOAD A CHEESE!
Can't duplicate a moldy cheese anyway. It's not fungi-able.
I would.
This guy did, kind of, and got a cease and desist for publishing a "Grana Padano style cheese" recipe on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_AzMLhPF1Q
This guy did, kind of, and got a cease and desist for publishing a "Grana Padano style cheese" recipe on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_AzMLhPF1Q
I absolutely would buy a cheese printer and download off The Cheese Bay if I could.
How is this considered food safe?
Chewing it will definitely break any casing on the device, right?
The other thing I'd like to point out is that these can be copied. They aren't like a yubikey which responds to a challenge with an internal asymmetric private key.
Chewing it will definitely break any casing on the device, right?
The other thing I'd like to point out is that these can be copied. They aren't like a yubikey which responds to a challenge with an internal asymmetric private key.
It looks like it is in the qrcode sticker (which most people wouldn’t eat) - shown in the photo in the article. Eating it is no worse than eating a 500 micron grain of sand, except that the chip is safer and more hygienic to eat.
500 microns is pretty big for a food contaminant. It's about 4~5 hair widths, so I reckon your tongue can probably feel it and it might break under your bite.
I would bet it's safe if swallowed whole, but chewing? Not so sure.
I would bet it's safe if swallowed whole, but chewing? Not so sure.
Do you regularly chew grains of sand? I reckon your enamel is more in danger from this than anything else.
> Chewing it will definitely break any casing on the device, right?
Or your teeth (which is also not "food safe").
Or your teeth (which is also not "food safe").
Possibly, no. It's apparently encased in silicon dioxide, and I imagine that is the reason. If it's small enough, chewing it will be like chewing a grain of sand. You won't break it. You might swallow it, but doing so is harmless. You wouldn't want to breathe it in, though.
Typically you don't eat the rind on this kind of cheese.
It's a waste if you're not. https://www.eataly.com/us_en/magazine/how-to/leftover-parmes...
I love parmesan rinds - it never occurred to me they might be dangerous.
None of those are eating the rind. They are putting the wine in broth for seasoning.
Adding it to risotto isn’t eating it? What are you doing with YOUR risotto?!
> Plop the rinds into your next tomato sauce, ragù, or soup and let it simmer. Remove whatever is left of the rind just before serving.
> Make your risotto even richer with the addition of the rinds! Put the rinds in the risotto after it's halfway done cooking. Let everything simmer as you stir and add more broth. Remove the rinds before serving.
> Make your risotto even richer with the addition of the rinds! Put the rinds in the risotto after it's halfway done cooking. Let everything simmer as you stir and add more broth. Remove the rinds before serving.
I always plan to remove the rind but find that it has completely dissolved.
In general, the rind is put into food and removed before eating. Kind of like you are making the liquid into a sort of cheese tea... or the way you would season something with a sprig of rosemary, a cinnamon stick, or other spices that you remove before eating.
I wouldn't really want to make tea with tea leaves that have microchips in them
Yes, you do. At least, I do, and if you don't I'll be happy to eat yours too. I love Parmigiano. It's not really the reason why I ended up living in Parma, but it's a great coincidence nonetheless.
Italian here - that's no excuse for compromising food safety, also from a legal perspective.
I might be wrong, but as rind is part of the cheese itself, you can't just embed random electronics in it (unless you apply it e.g. as an external, removable seal)
I might be wrong, but as rind is part of the cheese itself, you can't just embed random electronics in it (unless you apply it e.g. as an external, removable seal)
It's usually used for soup stock, though.
I was thinking the same thing. I never had great results with this, but it's certainly a traditional thing to throw the rind in water used for rice, etc. as well.
Probably depends on what kind of soup you're throwing it into. But yes, parmesan rinds are great for adding a bit of savory/umami/"funk" into your soups and stews. I keep a bag of them in the freezer and grab a few whenever I'm simmering something savory or meaty. Unused parsley or cilantro stems work well, too, as a soup toss-in.
Not sure if it would work well with rice. I tend to use bay leaves, star anise, or even ginger peels/skins for rice. All of those are more aromatic.
Not sure if it would work well with rice. I tend to use bay leaves, star anise, or even ginger peels/skins for rice. All of those are more aromatic.
I prize the rind for throwing in ragu to melt down
You’re typically missing out if you don’t. The rind is delicious!
[deleted]
try me!!
What if it gets fed to some pet or farm animal?
What if it gets fed to some pet or farm animal?
I suppose they might be mistaken for fine Parmesan cheese. Otherwise they’ll be fine. Have you not noticed what your dog will happily eat off the ground when you’re out for a walk? Discarded socks, gravel, bits of plastic, cat shit, gum wrappers, literally anything that catches its eye when you’re not paying close attention.
Oh that took me back to wrestling a cigarette butt out of a baby pugs eager little mouth. Honestly if that dog had taken to eating tiny electronics it probably would have been a net improvement.
I’ve a friend with a young dog that she swears has pica. It’s proving nigh impossible to prevent it from hoovering up litter. It puts goats’ reputation to shame.
That's why I feed my dog rusty staples.
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You had me at cheese but lost me at blockchain.
:) I didn't understand it either.
Maybe the blockchain crypto-anchor that creates a digital 'twin' for physical items would then create that "anchor" (like creating a bitcoin) that can then be linked (traced back) to its source (and intermediate steps like reselling/processing) when the cheese is finally sold in some form?
Maybe the blockchain crypto-anchor that creates a digital 'twin' for physical items would then create that "anchor" (like creating a bitcoin) that can then be linked (traced back) to its source (and intermediate steps like reselling/processing) when the cheese is finally sold in some form?
That works even if you remove the "Blockchain".
Only if you have a trusted central database. With blockchain you can move your cheese independent of central authority.
Right, but the whole point here is that central authorities authenticate the cheese
No, I don't think so. From the article I think there is a trade association that views fraud as a problem and thinks that that a verifiable provenance would help. I don't see an implication that the trade association or its members are particularly concerned about internal diversion or substitution of the product. It seems plausible that they think enabling consumers or merchants to verify cheese authenticity will reduce fraud, and they may see a distributed means of maintaining the records as a good way to achieve that.
But what does distributing it get them? They don't need to resist sibyl attacks, and they explicitly don't want to let just anyone... Mine cheesecoin, so to speak. Just create a central CA, have it sign each authorized cheese maker's certificate, and have customers verify signatures. Or do lookups against a central database.
Distributing it gives freedom of choice. No need to nominate a blessed CA that everyone has to use.
It's fine for anyone to mine cheesecoin. Probably better for this specific trade group in fact, if nonmembers decide to use this same blockchain for their cheese as well! Customers can still check if they are buying DOP specifically vs. 150mi-local worker coop biodynamic or whatever. The more widely used this system is, the more wholesalers, merchants, and consumers will learn of it and use it, and the harder it will be for fraudsters to pass off their goods as the Genuine Article.
Who's going to run the CA? Who's going to pay for it? Can you get all the customers to add the CA's public key to their trusted list? Will all the producers and merchants agree as well? The producers are the easy part, they are the ones coming up with this plan. Everyone else in the cheese economy: that could be harder. It's not just verifying the "this cheese was made by X" claim, also at every step of distribution you have to update the log "this cheese was sold to Y" and get that signed too, so all the distributors and merchants need to get certificates and learn how to apply the secret keys to cheeselogs. Using a blockchain also requires some crypto-effort, but it requires participants to agree on fewer things, gives the participants more freedom of choice. I could imagine someone proposing the centralized version you suggest, but apparently this particular group think it is better to do it in decentralized fashion and I can definitely see some advantages to that.
It's fine for anyone to mine cheesecoin. Probably better for this specific trade group in fact, if nonmembers decide to use this same blockchain for their cheese as well! Customers can still check if they are buying DOP specifically vs. 150mi-local worker coop biodynamic or whatever. The more widely used this system is, the more wholesalers, merchants, and consumers will learn of it and use it, and the harder it will be for fraudsters to pass off their goods as the Genuine Article.
Who's going to run the CA? Who's going to pay for it? Can you get all the customers to add the CA's public key to their trusted list? Will all the producers and merchants agree as well? The producers are the easy part, they are the ones coming up with this plan. Everyone else in the cheese economy: that could be harder. It's not just verifying the "this cheese was made by X" claim, also at every step of distribution you have to update the log "this cheese was sold to Y" and get that signed too, so all the distributors and merchants need to get certificates and learn how to apply the secret keys to cheeselogs. Using a blockchain also requires some crypto-effort, but it requires participants to agree on fewer things, gives the participants more freedom of choice. I could imagine someone proposing the centralized version you suggest, but apparently this particular group think it is better to do it in decentralized fashion and I can definitely see some advantages to that.
So your comment + the ones upstream mean that the consortium "Parmigiano Reggiano" could just handle the whole thing with their own "private & classical" database?
If yes then that would mean that anybody that deals with "Parmigiano Reggiano"-based-products would have to request some kind of access (userid&pwd, or some ssl-certificate, etc...) and submit transactions (basically like a mini-bank only for this specific type of cheese)?
If yes then a blockchain-based approach might be in some way better? You would have to emit many-smaller-cheese-coins when you produce your stuff and in order to do that you would have to consume a big-cheese-coin (which you received when you bought the big piece of cheese that you used to manufacture pizzas etc that you produce).
Not sure about what I wrote - I might be overthinking some things and overlooking some other things... :P I did mine a few fractions of BTCs many years ago, but the blockchain is still not easy at all to understand for me.
If yes then that would mean that anybody that deals with "Parmigiano Reggiano"-based-products would have to request some kind of access (userid&pwd, or some ssl-certificate, etc...) and submit transactions (basically like a mini-bank only for this specific type of cheese)?
If yes then a blockchain-based approach might be in some way better? You would have to emit many-smaller-cheese-coins when you produce your stuff and in order to do that you would have to consume a big-cheese-coin (which you received when you bought the big piece of cheese that you used to manufacture pizzas etc that you produce).
Not sure about what I wrote - I might be overthinking some things and overlooking some other things... :P I did mine a few fractions of BTCs many years ago, but the blockchain is still not easy at all to understand for me.
> If yes then that would mean that anybody that deals with "Parmigiano Reggiano"-based-products would have to request some kind of access (userid&pwd, or some ssl-certificate, etc...) and submit transactions (basically like a mini-bank only for this specific type of cheese)?
They need a fancy scanner and the right software to verify these embedded trackers anyway. Just sell scanners configured to verify the cheese to anybody that cares to verify their cheese.
They need a fancy scanner and the right software to verify these embedded trackers anyway. Just sell scanners configured to verify the cheese to anybody that cares to verify their cheese.
Ah, okay; yes, if allowing untrusted parties to execute transactions is a goal, then blockchain might make sense.
You can not have trustless consensus when you have the commodity created outside of the block chain. Bitcoin works because mining both verifies transactions and creates new bitcoins. A blockchain that verifies transactions but just blindly stores newly created commodity units has no purpose. It's just an inefficient database.
Isn't the blockchain the central authority?
> That works even if you remove the "Blockchain".
That's a key criteria for being Web 3.0. Now basically, the only new principal involved is that instead of value being generated by the relative motion of conductors and fluxes, it is produced by the modial interaction of magneto-reluctance and capacitive-interactance... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag
That's a key criteria for being Web 3.0. Now basically, the only new principal involved is that instead of value being generated by the relative motion of conductors and fluxes, it is produced by the modial interaction of magneto-reluctance and capacitive-interactance... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag
The world is not ready for block-cheese tech. I know I am not.
Here's picture of p-Chip. https://p-chip.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/pChip-tracking...
I do not want these in my diet though.
I don't know about you, but I generally don't eat the rind of aged/hardened cheese, so that's not really a problem (for me).
I regularly use parmigiano rind when making vegetable stock. Hopefully the tracker extract will add some nuance.
It's not a bad thing to let a dog chew on.... until now
Oh no! A secret delight is to cut the leftover rind in reasonably safe pieces and abundantly microwave them. Once cooled down they become deliciously crunchy and puffy.
This transponder is "smaller than a grain of salt", so it probably doesn't matter, but in any case it's embedded in the casein label in the wax. If you're really worried about it and have a rind with part of the label on it, scrape off the wax.
If you consume the piece of the rind which has the tracker in it and it gets stuck in some crevice in your bowels how long are you going to be trackable as a piece of Parma cheese?
How degradable are they?
How degradable are they?
Also if they are optically powered with a laser, you'd notice if someone was trying to light it up while it was inside of you. :)
That's just making the job of future archeologists easier :)
On a serious note, the half-life in acidic solutions (which might include stomach acid) is 1 day according to the link shared by perihelions.
On a serious note, the half-life in acidic solutions (which might include stomach acid) is 1 day according to the link shared by perihelions.
They appear to be visible on the edge as stickers. I don't think they are hidden within the rind.
> tiny, food-safe transponders
Oh, no. I save the rinds to put in soup (I take them out before serving!). Tracking-tag soup, anyone?
Oh, no. I save the rinds to put in soup (I take them out before serving!). Tracking-tag soup, anyone?
[deleted]
Cheese and Trackers.
A timeless match.
A timeless match.
"blockchain crypto-anchor"
Seriously? How the bloody hell does a blockchain do ANYTHING that a database cant?
Seriously? How the bloody hell does a blockchain do ANYTHING that a database cant?
Stopped reading at “blockchain crypto-anchor”
The whole idea of fraudulent cheese is a little sketchy anyway. Location based restrictions on names feels unethical to me.
The whole idea of fraudulent cheese is a little sketchy anyway. Location based restrictions on names feels unethical to me.
This reminds me of the whole shebang around "champagne". There are thousands varieties of sparkling wine in the world, most of them are interesting in their own way.
So, what if we stop use term "parmesan" in our recipes and use just "aged hard cheese"?
So, what if we stop use term "parmesan" in our recipes and use just "aged hard cheese"?
Presumably the grocer or end user will end up with a pile of rind containing the embedded tagging chips. Fraudsters could simply gather/buy the waste rind plus trackers to embed them in their own fake products. Unless there is a robust disposal process (sending them back to the cheese producer), the genuine trackers will just end up 'authenticating' fake products.
You might have missed from the article that these are non fungible chips, tied to an ad-hoc blockchain.
What brings you to think that in 2 minutes, just by reading an article (if you’ve actually read it and not just lazily skimmed it) you’ve been able to find the single point of failure of a technology that an entire engineering company has been developing for years?
What brings you to think that in 2 minutes, just by reading an article (if you’ve actually read it and not just lazily skimmed it) you’ve been able to find the single point of failure of a technology that an entire engineering company has been developing for years?
More microplastics - it's all a bit depressing, to be honest.
"p-Chip micro-transponders can tolerate extreme temperatures (-200°C to 500°C); withstand microwave irradiation; ride out high g-forces (15,000 g); and hold up against solvents and reagents."
Nice and biodegradable then.
"p-Chip micro-transponders can tolerate extreme temperatures (-200°C to 500°C); withstand microwave irradiation; ride out high g-forces (15,000 g); and hold up against solvents and reagents."
Nice and biodegradable then.
Could someone please explain to me how this is going to prevent "fraud"?
Is every buyer of a whole wheel of cheese expected to have a reader for these tags?
I feel sorry for the poor bastard who bought into the buzzword soup of the providers and decided to go on with this project :(
Is every buyer of a whole wheel of cheese expected to have a reader for these tags?
I feel sorry for the poor bastard who bought into the buzzword soup of the providers and decided to go on with this project :(
I read this as: "Parmigiano Reggiano makers embedding tiny crackers in rind ..."
Brilliant!
Brilliant!
Such closed industry groups are a cartel who can limit production which is actively bad for consumers.
Therefore we should be doing everything we can to assist 'cheese fraud'.
Therefore we should be doing everything we can to assist 'cheese fraud'.
Question: Why is a tracker necessary? Is there no solution that works with just a qr code that contains some cryptographic signature, similar to train tickets for instance?
[deleted](1)
Anyone know what model tracker is being used? Or can give a brief description of a p-Chip micro transponder?
This is going to poison my minestrone.
Can you still call it Parmigiano Reggiano, though, if it is adulterated with these chips?
Unauthorized cheese, anyone?
so my autistic child likes eating the rind if he can get a hold of it. Rinds are edible, so this is another case really of companies also screwing over the consumer - here are recipes you can use with the rind https://www.eataly.com/us_en/magazine/how-to/leftover-parmes... , although I guess not any more?
How is the source of this not The Onion?!
Now in those days, we thought we had a bead on things. We thought they were tracking us through the vaccines, and organized to defend our freedoms.
But when the true scale of privacy erosion became apparent in 2022, we were horrified and helpless.
You see, it was the cheese all along...
But when the true scale of privacy erosion became apparent in 2022, we were horrified and helpless.
You see, it was the cheese all along...
Will they include this additive in the ingredients list?
and you thought these transponders arent in your vaccines too.
> The innovation combines food-safe Casein labels with the p-Chip micro transponder — a blockchain crypto-anchor that creates a digital 'twin' for physical items.
someone just burped out some buzzwords, didn't they?
someone just burped out some buzzwords, didn't they?
Honestly, this is how every unnecessarily techy project is advertised in my area - which happens to be the same as Parmigiano - just because most readers are so little skilled, that they will take whatever contains those as innovative.
In the end, I guess the same happens in other countries, but hearing the cliché "blockchain"+"industry4.0"+"ai" buzzwords is sadly common especially when trying to attract public funding.
In the end, I guess the same happens in other countries, but hearing the cliché "blockchain"+"industry4.0"+"ai" buzzwords is sadly common especially when trying to attract public funding.
ah yes, the "VC wake words" special
exactly where i stopped reading
[deleted]
Great, so we are now being fed microchips.
"Honey is the parmezzan more old or are we munching on microchips?"
"Honey is the parmezzan more old or are we munching on microchips?"
It's in the rind, which you'd be hard pressed to eat!
Pretty mainstream to use Parmesan cheese rinds as part of making soups and stews of various kinds https://www.allrecipes.com/article/how-to-use-parmesan-chees...
I eat it directly. Quite like the texture actually
For sure, but then you take it out before you serve it (at least in my experience).
Wow, TIL.
I always assumed the Parmesan rind is wax.
I always assumed the Parmesan rind is wax.
In New Jersey at least, King's supermarkets sell chopped up rind in small containers.
Source: my Italian mom buys them for me and I munch on them all the time.
Source: my Italian mom buys them for me and I munch on them all the time.
Doesn't the rind have wax? (same as candle wax)
Nothing really wrong with consuming limited quantities of candle wax.
Some cheeses do, but I've never seen it on Parmigian.
And technically it's in the casein label in the rind, which is not eaten anyway.
It already has the batch number etc.
It already has the batch number etc.
Feed it to the dog.
“There’s a smart dog!”
“There’s a smart dog!”
Y-bar(3)
The blockchain is so cheesy
Italian cheese makers
Hold my wine
Italian cheese makers
Hold my wine
I am all for trademarks. But 'only things made here can have this name' is silly protectionism. Adding electronics to 'fix fraud' really is just worsening the original product. If this goes through I would prefer the fraudulent stuff over the real deal.
> is silly protectionism
It's not silly.
It's protecting the buyers from frauds.
Parmigiano-Reggiano is made in Emilia Romagna, in the Parma-Reggio (Emilia) area.
That's the only real deal.
Like Champagne which is made only in the Champagne wine region in France.
If it's not from there, it's not the same product.
It might even be better according to personal taste, for example I prefer Franciacorta, which is from Franciacorta region in Lombardy.
But it's not Champagne and can't be named after it.
Can I call my search engine Google and act like I am the real Google?
I guess not...
It's not silly.
It's protecting the buyers from frauds.
Parmigiano-Reggiano is made in Emilia Romagna, in the Parma-Reggio (Emilia) area.
That's the only real deal.
Like Champagne which is made only in the Champagne wine region in France.
If it's not from there, it's not the same product.
It might even be better according to personal taste, for example I prefer Franciacorta, which is from Franciacorta region in Lombardy.
But it's not Champagne and can't be named after it.
Can I call my search engine Google and act like I am the real Google?
I guess not...
> It's protecting the buyers from frauds.
> Parmigiano-Reggiano is made in Emilia Romagna, in the Parma-Reggio (Emilia) area.
> That's the only real deal.
I think this distinction is silly. I don't think the region the product came from matters much. More specifically, I believe certain regions claiming "this is only the real deal if it comes from here" are being chauvinistic, or maybe just trying to protect their local economy.
Champagne is equally silly as Parmigiano-Reggiano. And there are many more similar regional trade-marks. You cannot call your search engine google because of (among other things) trademark law. But this is not a regional trade-mark. Its because you are impersonating a different company.
I actually favor normal trade-marks. They are the most reasonable form of intellectual property.I believe customers need to be protected from products pretending they are from a different company. This allows them to hold the company responsible. It allows them to judge a product by the reputation of the company, and it allows the company to build a reputation. I do not believe customers need to be protected from products claiming to be from a region that 'makes the product special'.
It seems to me that, regional trade marks are not so much about protecting the customer, but instead about protecting the region economy or prestige.
> Parmigiano-Reggiano is made in Emilia Romagna, in the Parma-Reggio (Emilia) area.
> That's the only real deal.
I think this distinction is silly. I don't think the region the product came from matters much. More specifically, I believe certain regions claiming "this is only the real deal if it comes from here" are being chauvinistic, or maybe just trying to protect their local economy.
Champagne is equally silly as Parmigiano-Reggiano. And there are many more similar regional trade-marks. You cannot call your search engine google because of (among other things) trademark law. But this is not a regional trade-mark. Its because you are impersonating a different company.
I actually favor normal trade-marks. They are the most reasonable form of intellectual property.I believe customers need to be protected from products pretending they are from a different company. This allows them to hold the company responsible. It allows them to judge a product by the reputation of the company, and it allows the company to build a reputation. I do not believe customers need to be protected from products claiming to be from a region that 'makes the product special'.
It seems to me that, regional trade marks are not so much about protecting the customer, but instead about protecting the region economy or prestige.
Actually it’s made in Parma, Reggio Emilia, Modena, part of Bologna and part of Mantua.
Yes, of course, sorry for not being precise, I apologize!
I simply wanted to show the connection between the name Parmigiano Regiano and the area it comes from.
Modena is my goto place when I am travelling to stop eating and I've lived in Bologna for two years, the whole Emilia Romagna is one of my favorite places in Italy.
Also, my father in law lives in Mantua, so, I can say I am a Parmigiano home boy :D
I simply wanted to show the connection between the name Parmigiano Regiano and the area it comes from.
Modena is my goto place when I am travelling to stop eating and I've lived in Bologna for two years, the whole Emilia Romagna is one of my favorite places in Italy.
Also, my father in law lives in Mantua, so, I can say I am a Parmigiano home boy :D
[deleted]
Is there a quality control board, or does making the product in the area confer magical powers to the product?
To get a DPO registration you must show both historical ties to the region and a specific regional method. There is a quality control board. Probably some of it is puffery; some of it is quite precise.
https://www.parmigianoreggiano.com/consortium-specifications...
https://www.parmigianoreggiano.com/consortium-specifications...
Ok, so why does the region matter, iff you follow the same method and live up to the same quality standards?
> iff you follow the same method
Good luck competing in any economical sense if you're importing cows from Parma to give them uncontaminated feed from Parma then aging the cheese in an artificial climate like Parma's.
Corners are invariably cut. Do they matter? Maybe, maybe not. But why do you need to name your cheese after a region it's not from? Grana padano's done fine for itself, for example.
Good luck competing in any economical sense if you're importing cows from Parma to give them uncontaminated feed from Parma then aging the cheese in an artificial climate like Parma's.
Corners are invariably cut. Do they matter? Maybe, maybe not. But why do you need to name your cheese after a region it's not from? Grana padano's done fine for itself, for example.
It's up to the buyers to say whether it matters and they say it does.
The buyers did not decide to give this regional trade-mark. That was some government somewhere. The buyers tend to follow that. And perhaps the buyers only value the "stringent quality check" of the mark, and do not care for the "region check" but they have no alternatives.
>perhaps the buyers only value the "stringent quality check" of the mark, and do not care for the "region check"
This goes hand in hand since the Parmigiano Reggiano Consortium has no interest in verifying quality of cheese from other regions.
The cheese producers located elsewhere are free to found their own consortium for quality checking, build up its reputation and convince customers to value it the same as parmigiano reggiano.
This goes hand in hand since the Parmigiano Reggiano Consortium has no interest in verifying quality of cheese from other regions.
The cheese producers located elsewhere are free to found their own consortium for quality checking, build up its reputation and convince customers to value it the same as parmigiano reggiano.
Well, it's hard to imagine that such a flagship monument to the made in Italy comes to existence thanks to magical powers.
To answer the question, of course there is a very strict quality control board
All producers of Parmesan cheese belong to the Consorzio del Formaggio Parmigiano Reggiano (Parmigiano Reggiano Cheese Consortium), which was founded in 1928. Besides setting and enforcing the standards for the PDO [1], the Consorzio also sponsors marketing activities
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_ori...
To answer the question, of course there is a very strict quality control board
All producers of Parmesan cheese belong to the Consorzio del Formaggio Parmigiano Reggiano (Parmigiano Reggiano Cheese Consortium), which was founded in 1928. Besides setting and enforcing the standards for the PDO [1], the Consorzio also sponsors marketing activities
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_designation_of_ori...
Biotechnology, not magic. Different places have their own unique populations of mould, bacteria and mites that get into the cheese, which greatly affects the taste and texture.
Culturally Americans are terrified of finding such things in their food supply, so it's easy to understand why they don't hold these protected designations of origin in high regard, nor are likely to do much to replicate the effects in their domestic versions.
Culturally Americans are terrified of finding such things in their food supply, so it's easy to understand why they don't hold these protected designations of origin in high regard, nor are likely to do much to replicate the effects in their domestic versions.
You are free to buy or produce a hard dry sheep's cheese that isn't made in Emilia-Romagna. The name 'Parmesan' is a portmanteau of parts of the region (Parma, Reggio Emilia). The name is the region so saying 'only thing made here can have *the name of the region*' is absolutely not "silly protectionism".
Exactly. Nuances in the region such as grass and soil can affect the final flavor of the cheese. In the same way, chocolate from Mozambique is very unique, and I expect when a bag of coffee says Ethiopia or Costa Rica on it, it really ought to be from that places. The places grown truly affect the flavor for single-origin products, but it won’t matter so much if you’re consuming cocoa or coffee that’s blandly mixed together from different regions.
terroir
"Parmesan" means "from Parma", the suffix -esan also occurs in words like courtesan, or partisan.
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"Mmm, this Bordeaux is delicious!"
"Do you mean 'Cabernet blend?' "
"Do you mean 'Cabernet blend?' "
The American government has little interest in protecting the word 'Parmesan' itself; firstly because doing so would be inconvenient to American cheesemakers^, and secondly, because Americans don't speak Italian anyway and don't perceive an implication of "From Parma" from the word "Parmesan", even if such an implication is obvious to those who do know Italian.
^ Just as European cheese regulations protect European cheese interests, so do American cheese regulations protect American cheese interests.
^ Just as European cheese regulations protect European cheese interests, so do American cheese regulations protect American cheese interests.
Parmesan is cow's milk cheese. You're thinking of Pecorino Romano, which is made with sheep's milk ("pecorino" is Italin for "from sheep").
I wouldn’t mind the knock-offs so much if they actually made an effort to replicate the taste and texture.
While you could make rules that the products need to be at least in the same ballpark as what it says on the label, I imagine that would be quite difficult to enforce. It’s much easier to just go by an established local custom and just declare that to be the real deal.
While you could make rules that the products need to be at least in the same ballpark as what it says on the label, I imagine that would be quite difficult to enforce. It’s much easier to just go by an established local custom and just declare that to be the real deal.
> I am all for trademarks. But 'only things made here can have this name' is silly protectionism
Can you explain what you mean? This seems like a contradiction... Is branding not trademark? If you're for trademarks, why would someone else be permitted to use their branding?
(Devil's advocate. I'm not actually all for trademarks.)
Can you explain what you mean? This seems like a contradiction... Is branding not trademark? If you're for trademarks, why would someone else be permitted to use their branding?
(Devil's advocate. I'm not actually all for trademarks.)
I believe trademarks protect customers by allowing a company to build a reputation and giving a customer certainty about who they are buying from.
I do not believe trademarks that protect a region, rather than a company actually have benefit to a customer. Instead it feels to me like these regional trade-marks are ways a government can appease a local community by enshrining in law that they are the 'one true place'. This is benefiting the local community at the cost of anyone else who is capable of delivering the same quality but is now excluded only by virtue of their location.
Or, looking at it more cynically, this is a way for people living on one side of a line to put one over on people living on the other side of the line. They do this by enshrining in law the idea "we are better than the people who do not live here" as if that is a permanent thing. The arrogance, the self-importance, entiteledness and small-mindedness of that really annoy me. Just because your region was the best at a thing at some point in history does not mean that, in perpetuity, other regions will never match your quality.
I do not believe trademarks that protect a region, rather than a company actually have benefit to a customer. Instead it feels to me like these regional trade-marks are ways a government can appease a local community by enshrining in law that they are the 'one true place'. This is benefiting the local community at the cost of anyone else who is capable of delivering the same quality but is now excluded only by virtue of their location.
Or, looking at it more cynically, this is a way for people living on one side of a line to put one over on people living on the other side of the line. They do this by enshrining in law the idea "we are better than the people who do not live here" as if that is a permanent thing. The arrogance, the self-importance, entiteledness and small-mindedness of that really annoy me. Just because your region was the best at a thing at some point in history does not mean that, in perpetuity, other regions will never match your quality.
The region is just a collection of companies... Identical logic applies. It's just as if one company bought up all the little ones, no different...
> This is benefiting the local community at the cost of anyone else who is capable of delivering the same quality but is now excluded only by virtue of their location.
No it's not, people can make better stuff and put their own brand on it... Nobody excluded from making better parmesean, only from lying that it's from that region when it's not...
> This is benefiting the local community at the cost of anyone else who is capable of delivering the same quality but is now excluded only by virtue of their location.
No it's not, people can make better stuff and put their own brand on it... Nobody excluded from making better parmesean, only from lying that it's from that region when it's not...
I don't see the problem, it's a sort of collective regional trademark that the makers of this traditional regional cheese carrying this specific branding (and their customers expecting authentic product) benefit from.
If you don't have a problem with the likes of Apple litigating counterfeit products using their trademarked brand, why would you have a problem with this?
If you don't have a problem with the likes of Apple litigating counterfeit products using their trademarked brand, why would you have a problem with this?
> If you don't have a problem with the likes of Apple litigating counterfeit products using their trademarked brand, why would you have a problem with this?
Put simply, because I care about who manufactured electronics, but I don't care where cheese was made. I do care who made it, but not which village it comes from.
Specifically the idea that one region is so special as to deserve legal protection offends me.
Put simply, because I care about who manufactured electronics, but I don't care where cheese was made. I do care who made it, but not which village it comes from.
Specifically the idea that one region is so special as to deserve legal protection offends me.
It sounds like you are not all for trademarks.
I think a trademark should show you 'who' made it. Not 'where' it was made.
Are they not, fundamentally, one and the same?
Another fun fact, most cheesemakers are farmer coops and act as a sort of bank for the farmers. Most of them can borrow against their "share" of the cheese that is aging if they have a big capital expense that it coming up and they can't wait 2-3 years for the cheese to age and sell.