Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data under a Section 91 order
320 comments
I'm not a lawyer, nor am I an Indian lawyer, but if Razorpay received a Section 91 order (https://indiankanoon.org/doc/788840/) they wouldn't have much choice on turning over any records. It looks to be the rough equivalent of third party doctrine in the US (which is also horrible).
It can come from "any Court or any officer in charge of a police station".
Banks and fintech in many countries are even more exposed to data demands than regular data processors.
Pitchforks may be justified here, but perhaps not directed at Razorpay.
It can come from "any Court or any officer in charge of a police station".
Banks and fintech in many countries are even more exposed to data demands than regular data processors.
Pitchforks may be justified here, but perhaps not directed at Razorpay.
Razorpay did receive a Section 91 order according to their tweet: https://twitter.com/Razorpay/status/1544313411621646338
Ok, I've edited the title above to include this detail. (Submitted title was "Tell HN: Razorpay a YC company shared donor data without court order".)
This is less moderation than we would normally do. Under normal circumstances, we would not allow a submitter to use a text post to put their own tendentious spin on a story like this—especially when the account seems politically driven (e.g. bringing up past partisan tweets to bolster a political case, which is not in the intended spirit of HN). Most probably we'd change the post to point to the most neutral third-party article we could find—or, if someone had already posted one, we might merge this thread into it.
However, the first principle of HN moderation is that we moderate less, not more, when YC or a YC startup is involved (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...). So I'm suspending normal practice in favor of this relatively small intervention.
Edit: I suppose I should add that none of what I've written here has to do with the specific details of the story, which I haven't personally looked into. Commenters in this thread seem to be doing a reasonable job of discussing it, with the exception of some veerings into religious/political flamewar, which we've done the usual moderation with.
I suppose I should also add that we haven't downweighted the submission—its ranking is being determined by user voting and flagging. And we haven't pinned any comments, except the moderation replies in flamewar subthreads like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000788 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000252 (standard practice).
This is less moderation than we would normally do. Under normal circumstances, we would not allow a submitter to use a text post to put their own tendentious spin on a story like this—especially when the account seems politically driven (e.g. bringing up past partisan tweets to bolster a political case, which is not in the intended spirit of HN). Most probably we'd change the post to point to the most neutral third-party article we could find—or, if someone had already posted one, we might merge this thread into it.
However, the first principle of HN moderation is that we moderate less, not more, when YC or a YC startup is involved (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...). So I'm suspending normal practice in favor of this relatively small intervention.
Edit: I suppose I should add that none of what I've written here has to do with the specific details of the story, which I haven't personally looked into. Commenters in this thread seem to be doing a reasonable job of discussing it, with the exception of some veerings into religious/political flamewar, which we've done the usual moderation with.
I suppose I should also add that we haven't downweighted the submission—its ranking is being determined by user voting and flagging. And we haven't pinned any comments, except the moderation replies in flamewar subthreads like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000788 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32000252 (standard practice).
This is an important detail that OP missed in their post.
I don't think @dang will pin the above comment, but this needs to be higher here as the reply includes that they received a legal order. This is maligning the company unjustly.
Exactly! They received a legal order and company has press release which completely justify action taken.
exactly. Only intent is to malign Razorpay, so OP also chose to create a throw away account. Razorpay didn't really have much choice in this.
The account I have used is more than a year old. I would be harassed by Hindutva goons online and offline if I use my real identity. Maybe also a false police case.
Also Razorpay is not innocent here. They could have disputed the demand in the court. Could have informed the users that their data was shared with government. Could have shared only the transactions that originated in a foreign country.They did none of these.
Also note that donations could not have been done with a foreign credit card. So the intent is to harass the individuals that supported the fack-checking website.
Also, note that the founder and the company has been fans of the current nationalistic government. More reasons why they did not dispute the police demand.
https://twitter.com/shashank_kr/status/1175974410202697728
https://imgur.com/a/ZDRZZ87
Also Razorpay is not innocent here. They could have disputed the demand in the court. Could have informed the users that their data was shared with government. Could have shared only the transactions that originated in a foreign country.They did none of these.
Also note that donations could not have been done with a foreign credit card. So the intent is to harass the individuals that supported the fack-checking website.
Also, note that the founder and the company has been fans of the current nationalistic government. More reasons why they did not dispute the police demand.
https://twitter.com/shashank_kr/status/1175974410202697728
https://imgur.com/a/ZDRZZ87
Razorpay is innocent here. What kind of language is Hindutva Goons? Indian law is applicable at Indian soil as American law is applicable soil. American financial law are very similar for 3rd party companies. You have clear intent to hurt Razorpay brand value.
Let’s say if a CEO support country top leader and there is nothing wrong in it. He is Indian citizen and it’s his choice to do so.
I have donated several foundations in India from US via razorpay gateway and it works for few VISA cards.
You can’t dispute with police under this section given section 91 is a rare section. Your intent to harass, malign YC brand name and its companies. Please do read about section 91 and it’s implications.
Please check your claim and facts. Be a positive member to YC community. Any topic associated politics and hate should not be discussed here.
Let’s make better world talking about latest technology trends.
I think YC in future to flag post like this if they see motivation towards politics and false information.
Just updating the title doesn’t help much. The post owner pretended and presented a false and half narrative. He used only links that would be beneficial to his claim or final purpose.
Let’s say if a CEO support country top leader and there is nothing wrong in it. He is Indian citizen and it’s his choice to do so.
I have donated several foundations in India from US via razorpay gateway and it works for few VISA cards.
You can’t dispute with police under this section given section 91 is a rare section. Your intent to harass, malign YC brand name and its companies. Please do read about section 91 and it’s implications.
Please check your claim and facts. Be a positive member to YC community. Any topic associated politics and hate should not be discussed here.
Let’s make better world talking about latest technology trends.
I think YC in future to flag post like this if they see motivation towards politics and false information.
Just updating the title doesn’t help much. The post owner pretended and presented a false and half narrative. He used only links that would be beneficial to his claim or final purpose.
>You can’t dispute with police under this section given section 91 is a rare section.
This is not true. There is enough precedence where this was successfully disputed. Including by Google and Amazon in India. Would Apple turn in all the records if a police officer asks for any data they seem fit for an investigation?
Re Hindutva:, there is enough literature online to educate you about it. https://cjp.org.in/tag/hindutva/
This is not true. There is enough precedence where this was successfully disputed. Including by Google and Amazon in India. Would Apple turn in all the records if a police officer asks for any data they seem fit for an investigation?
Re Hindutva:, there is enough literature online to educate you about it. https://cjp.org.in/tag/hindutva/
OPs fact checking gives you a good idea of the kind of “fact checking” the person in the center of this story (Zubair) used to do as well.
They hate the ruling party, who to be honest are amoral assholes like most Indian politicians and bureaucrats, so facts don’t really matter to them.
They hate the ruling party, who to be honest are amoral assholes like most Indian politicians and bureaucrats, so facts don’t really matter to them.
> They could have disputed the demand in the court.
Why just that, they might as well fight the case for the accused.
> Could have shared only the transactions that originated in a foreign country.They did none of these.
We re sorry but it doesn't work like that. I am not sure if you understand that its not in hands of razor pay to bargain what they would like to share.
Why just that, they might as well fight the case for the accused.
> Could have shared only the transactions that originated in a foreign country.They did none of these.
We re sorry but it doesn't work like that. I am not sure if you understand that its not in hands of razor pay to bargain what they would like to share.
Without knowing what is written on the Section 93 order, you and I don't know if the company in question can even limit the requests to what you propose. On the contrary, it could be written in no uncertain terms to give all transactions related to a certain organisation including domestic donations.
And unfortunately you are getting downvoted :(
[deleted]
Would they care to share a copy of the order, in that case?
I would be upset if an American company was enabling this kind of government abuse in a foreign country. A local company complying with local laws? Ok I recognize that it is bad but I don't blame a company with following their local laws. You can only expect so much rebellion.
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This is the unfortunate reality of India; the government/police don't need to actually go to court. It can harass companies and executives by simply threatening to / actually carrying out unnecessary 'raids' through the tax department.
The usual process is for the a bunch of policemen and beareaucrats to just show up unannounced; seal the office so that no one can enter or leave, and seize computers / phones, files and demand random stuff like invoices for $10 purchases from three years ago and so on. This can happen regularly until all business basically comes to a halt (unless the company complies with whatever the government wants). [1]
The next step is to threaten arrests and actually carry out some arrests on trumped up charge, and you can wait forever until trial (unless you comply with what the government wants). The trials usually result in acquittal after several years but the process is the punishment. The media in the meanwhile is happy to go along with the official version (that the company is question is allegedly employing shady accounting practices).
The next stage is painting the company as 'anti national', arrange for a few mobs to harrass folks / attempt lynchings and finally actually 'dissappear'/kill people (this last step is usually reserved for judges/writers etc since others usually comply before this step)
[1]: https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/10/02/indias-government-...
The usual process is for the a bunch of policemen and beareaucrats to just show up unannounced; seal the office so that no one can enter or leave, and seize computers / phones, files and demand random stuff like invoices for $10 purchases from three years ago and so on. This can happen regularly until all business basically comes to a halt (unless the company complies with whatever the government wants). [1]
The next step is to threaten arrests and actually carry out some arrests on trumped up charge, and you can wait forever until trial (unless you comply with what the government wants). The trials usually result in acquittal after several years but the process is the punishment. The media in the meanwhile is happy to go along with the official version (that the company is question is allegedly employing shady accounting practices).
The next stage is painting the company as 'anti national', arrange for a few mobs to harrass folks / attempt lynchings and finally actually 'dissappear'/kill people (this last step is usually reserved for judges/writers etc since others usually comply before this step)
[1]: https://www.economist.com/asia/2021/10/02/indias-government-...
Interestingly enough, if all of the above is true, then one can imagine that this very HN submission might be the work of a member of the Indian government/police wanting to increase pressure on Razorpay by applying negative PR to the company.
Post-truth world is not pretty.
Post-truth world is not pretty.
There's another comment providing more context; Razorpay is facing flak from some folks because it gave up transaction/donor data for a journalist's company. (Razorpay is the payment provider for the journalist's company AltNews)
The India government is actually trying their best to persecute the journalist (Mohd. Zubair) and putting pressure on Razorpay to get to AltNews/Zubair. (The govt. is trying to insinuate that the journalist is writing articles criticizing India on the behest of foreigners - by cooking up allegations that he has been receiving donations from people outside India)
I'm only arguing that it's next to impossible to stand up to the government in India; Razorpay need not be pro-government or anti Alt news, they are likely being forced to comply with the Government's (perhaps extra legal) demands via shady tactics and they need to save their own skin.
The India government is actually trying their best to persecute the journalist (Mohd. Zubair) and putting pressure on Razorpay to get to AltNews/Zubair. (The govt. is trying to insinuate that the journalist is writing articles criticizing India on the behest of foreigners - by cooking up allegations that he has been receiving donations from people outside India)
I'm only arguing that it's next to impossible to stand up to the government in India; Razorpay need not be pro-government or anti Alt news, they are likely being forced to comply with the Government's (perhaps extra legal) demands via shady tactics and they need to save their own skin.
Umm. Only it's not an allegation anymore. The 'journalist' in question already admitted to receiving foreign donations without having the necessary compliance registrations in place.
This is also leaving out the part that this 'journalist' doctored a video about a person and posted it that is causing islamists to give the person beheading threats. 2 people who supported her have already been beheaded. This 'journalist' also has several allegations of fake news of his own. So it's not so black and white.
This is also leaving out the part that this 'journalist' doctored a video about a person and posted it that is causing islamists to give the person beheading threats. 2 people who supported her have already been beheaded. This 'journalist' also has several allegations of fake news of his own. So it's not so black and white.
did they fill out their 27B-6 forms for the donations?
as for the allegations, I have not seen anything about the video encouraging killing, but have seen lots of coverage of the Indian government looking away from, or participating in, threats and actual violence against non-Hindi Indian citizens
as for the allegations, I have not seen anything about the video encouraging killing, but have seen lots of coverage of the Indian government looking away from, or participating in, threats and actual violence against non-Hindi Indian citizens
An Indian NGO receiving foreign funds requires FCRA registration. That they didn't have.
As to the rest of your comment, his video was doctored to take the statement out of context and aimed at violent islamists to take action against the individual. His specific video is quoted by most of the islamists threatening her with beheading.
As to the rest of your comment, his video was doctored to take the statement out of context and aimed at violent islamists to take action against the individual. His specific video is quoted by most of the islamists threatening her with beheading.
the reception rasorry, but "aimed at" sounds suspiciously weaseley, and your focus on how it was received, rather than how it was presented, even moreso.
did the video actually tell people to kill or not?
did the video actually tell people to kill or not?
Rule of law is a joke in India.
Center has central agencies and each states has their own police department. So whenever there is a noticeable criticism from someone centre or state govt will send their police/agency your way. You will be detained, put through the worst conditions and false charges will be filed. Most of these charges don't hold in higher courts but the damage is done. You will suffer, a lot. You will not dare to speak up again.
This is even so comical, sometimes centre will send agencies against another party politicians in power in a state they are not in power, and state will send police for local politicians from centre party. (https://scroll.in/article/1027571/how-the-modi-government-ha...)
Sometimes diff state police with diff party governments fight with each other. (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/toi-editorials/sto...)
And sometimes police will just plant evidence in your email with their work email address as backup email address. They literally jailed bunch of very old left activists with fake charges by hacking their email accounts. (https://www.wired.com/story/modified-elephant-planted-eviden...)
Center has central agencies and each states has their own police department. So whenever there is a noticeable criticism from someone centre or state govt will send their police/agency your way. You will be detained, put through the worst conditions and false charges will be filed. Most of these charges don't hold in higher courts but the damage is done. You will suffer, a lot. You will not dare to speak up again.
This is even so comical, sometimes centre will send agencies against another party politicians in power in a state they are not in power, and state will send police for local politicians from centre party. (https://scroll.in/article/1027571/how-the-modi-government-ha...)
Sometimes diff state police with diff party governments fight with each other. (https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/toi-editorials/sto...)
And sometimes police will just plant evidence in your email with their work email address as backup email address. They literally jailed bunch of very old left activists with fake charges by hacking their email accounts. (https://www.wired.com/story/modified-elephant-planted-eviden...)
After Occam's and Hanlon's razor we have a new - Payments' Razor wherein you opt for a non-compliant, utopic payment method and force this benchmark onto other payment services.
I’m a startup founder where most of our employees are based in India. I don’t condone this move by Razorpay. However, as someone else pointed out, the legal process in India is not robust, and it is biased toward people in power. Here are some constructive ways to avoid situations like this:
1. Register your company outside of India. The US is an excellent option because of the solid legal framework.
2. Encrypt the data. Ask for access from your customers, even for your own support teams.
3. Use international companies for services whenever possible.
It would be great to have a regular process to delete old data if you don’t need it for business purposes, and this is hard to do because you could develop an innovative way to add customer value using the old data you don’t know of today.
1. Register your company outside of India. The US is an excellent option because of the solid legal framework.
2. Encrypt the data. Ask for access from your customers, even for your own support teams.
3. Use international companies for services whenever possible.
It would be great to have a regular process to delete old data if you don’t need it for business purposes, and this is hard to do because you could develop an innovative way to add customer value using the old data you don’t know of today.
Unfortunately, the data part won’t work very well because of the strict data localization laws that require financial data to be stored in India. Related to this, Amex and MasterCard were banned from issuing new cards in India. The ban on MasterCard was removed recently (nearly a year later) after compliance. The ban on Amex is still not lifted.
> It would be great to have a regular process to delete old data if you don’t need it for business purposes, and this is hard to do because you could develop an innovative way to add customer value using the old data you don’t know of today.
It is not "hard to do" just because you would like not to do it. This is the first step you should be taking, not faffing around with international corporate registrations and encryption to create weak protection for data that you shouldn't have in the first place.
It is not "hard to do" just because you would like not to do it. This is the first step you should be taking, not faffing around with international corporate registrations and encryption to create weak protection for data that you shouldn't have in the first place.
i am sure there are compliance and regulations which would prevent FinTech companies acting on their own whims.
Ok, providing a little context here about how this played out.
1. A group of Hindu women petition a court for the right to (continue) worship at (what is now) the Gyanvapi mosque
2. The court orders that a survey of the mosque be carried out to determine if there is a historical locus standii for the petition
3. Videos of the survey reveal what appears to be a Shiva linga in a pond used for ablutions
4. Heated TV debates on prime time about the find. In one such debate a muslim cleric makes derogatory references to Shiva. In response a spokesperson of the ruling BJP, Nupur Sharma, says Prophet Mohammed married a girl of 6 and consumated the relationship when she was 9.
5. Zubair Mohammed of Altnews, begins a tweetstorm against Nupur Sharma and the channel for hurting muslim sentiments by making derogatory references to the prophet
6. Nupur Sharma says she is receiving threats due to Zubair's call and goes into hiding. Police on the lookout to arrest her for offending religious sentiments
7. Several videos posted demanding that she be killed and processions with "Sar tan se juda" slogans taken out (separate head from body)
8. Several also post "IStandWithNupur" in her support on social media. One such person is a tailor named Khanaiyya in Udaipur.
9. Khanaiyya is beheaded for standing in support of Nupur Sharma. The murderers record the killing on video and also threaten that the prime minister will meet the same fate
10. Many see this as a result of Zubair's call for action against Nupur and pull up old tweets of his with derogatory comments against Hindu practices demanding his arrest
11. Zubair is arrested and Altnews financials come under the scanner. Police use section 91 to obtain details of Altnews financing via Razorpay
1. A group of Hindu women petition a court for the right to (continue) worship at (what is now) the Gyanvapi mosque
2. The court orders that a survey of the mosque be carried out to determine if there is a historical locus standii for the petition
3. Videos of the survey reveal what appears to be a Shiva linga in a pond used for ablutions
4. Heated TV debates on prime time about the find. In one such debate a muslim cleric makes derogatory references to Shiva. In response a spokesperson of the ruling BJP, Nupur Sharma, says Prophet Mohammed married a girl of 6 and consumated the relationship when she was 9.
5. Zubair Mohammed of Altnews, begins a tweetstorm against Nupur Sharma and the channel for hurting muslim sentiments by making derogatory references to the prophet
6. Nupur Sharma says she is receiving threats due to Zubair's call and goes into hiding. Police on the lookout to arrest her for offending religious sentiments
7. Several videos posted demanding that she be killed and processions with "Sar tan se juda" slogans taken out (separate head from body)
8. Several also post "IStandWithNupur" in her support on social media. One such person is a tailor named Khanaiyya in Udaipur.
9. Khanaiyya is beheaded for standing in support of Nupur Sharma. The murderers record the killing on video and also threaten that the prime minister will meet the same fate
10. Many see this as a result of Zubair's call for action against Nupur and pull up old tweets of his with derogatory comments against Hindu practices demanding his arrest
11. Zubair is arrested and Altnews financials come under the scanner. Police use section 91 to obtain details of Altnews financing via Razorpay
A bit more context: The Gyanvapi mosque is older than the United States and the current controversy has been stirred up by Hindu nationalists targeting India's Muslim minority.
Nupur Sharma's statements created an international controversy for India with several Gulf countries demanding a public apology from India.
Zubair was arrested within days of a complaint being raised on a tweet he made in 2018, while Nupur Sharma hasn't been arrested yet, even after causing an international incident.
IMO, Razorpay would have been forced to give up the data, Section 91 or not, since the current government doesn't really care about due process.
The link below gives more details about the tweet that led to Zubair's arrest.
https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/tw...
Excerpts from the above article:
> According to the FIR, Zubair had used a screengrab of an old Hindi movie which showed an image of a hotel, with its board reading 'Hanuman hotel' instead of 'Honeymoon hotel'.
> In his tweet, Zubair had written: "BEFORE 2014: Honeymoon Hotel. After 2014: Hanuman Hotel".
> The complainant -- Twitter user @balajikijaiin, tagging the Delhi Police had written: "Linking our God Hanuman Ji with Honeymoon is a direct insult of Hindus because he is a brahmchari. Kindly take action against this."
> Noting the complaint, the police in the FIR said that the words and pictures used by Zubair in the tweet against a particular community were highly provocative and more than sufficient to incite feelings of hatred among people which can be detrimental for maintenance of public tranquility in the society.
Nupur Sharma's statements created an international controversy for India with several Gulf countries demanding a public apology from India.
Zubair was arrested within days of a complaint being raised on a tweet he made in 2018, while Nupur Sharma hasn't been arrested yet, even after causing an international incident.
IMO, Razorpay would have been forced to give up the data, Section 91 or not, since the current government doesn't really care about due process.
The link below gives more details about the tweet that led to Zubair's arrest.
https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/tw...
Excerpts from the above article:
> According to the FIR, Zubair had used a screengrab of an old Hindi movie which showed an image of a hotel, with its board reading 'Hanuman hotel' instead of 'Honeymoon hotel'.
> In his tweet, Zubair had written: "BEFORE 2014: Honeymoon Hotel. After 2014: Hanuman Hotel".
> The complainant -- Twitter user @balajikijaiin, tagging the Delhi Police had written: "Linking our God Hanuman Ji with Honeymoon is a direct insult of Hindus because he is a brahmchari. Kindly take action against this."
> Noting the complaint, the police in the FIR said that the words and pictures used by Zubair in the tweet against a particular community were highly provocative and more than sufficient to incite feelings of hatred among people which can be detrimental for maintenance of public tranquility in the society.
The original comment provides more factual context than yours:
> current controversy has been stirred up by Hindu nationalists targeting India's Muslim minority
This is just an opinion. And no mention of the ISIS-style executions carried out by the 'Muslim minority'?
> The Gyanvapi mosque is older than the United States
What is your point? The Hindu temple it was built over is older than the Islamic religion.
> Zubair was arrested within days of a complaint being raised on a tweet he made in 2018, while Nupur Sharma hasn't been arrested yet, even after causing an international incident.
Zubair was arrested for rumor mongering to disrupt harmony between religions, which is a crime in India.
And why should Nupur be arrested? She only stated facts often stated by Islamic scholars themselves.
> The link below gives more details about the tweet that led to Zubair's arrest.
Zubair has a long history of tweets and posts mocking Hindu Gods. Here are some screenshots of ones he deleted:
https://www.opindia.com/2022/06/netizens-dig-up-old-posts-al...
https://www.opindia.com/2022/06/alt-news-mohammed-zubair-del...
> current controversy has been stirred up by Hindu nationalists targeting India's Muslim minority
This is just an opinion. And no mention of the ISIS-style executions carried out by the 'Muslim minority'?
> The Gyanvapi mosque is older than the United States
What is your point? The Hindu temple it was built over is older than the Islamic religion.
> Zubair was arrested within days of a complaint being raised on a tweet he made in 2018, while Nupur Sharma hasn't been arrested yet, even after causing an international incident.
Zubair was arrested for rumor mongering to disrupt harmony between religions, which is a crime in India.
And why should Nupur be arrested? She only stated facts often stated by Islamic scholars themselves.
> The link below gives more details about the tweet that led to Zubair's arrest.
Zubair has a long history of tweets and posts mocking Hindu Gods. Here are some screenshots of ones he deleted:
https://www.opindia.com/2022/06/netizens-dig-up-old-posts-al...
https://www.opindia.com/2022/06/alt-news-mohammed-zubair-del...
>Zubair was arrested for rumor mongering to disrupt harmony between religions, which is a crime in India.
I have not seen many arrests of those doing so regarding Islam, does the law only protect the Hindu religion?
I have not seen many arrests of those doing so regarding Islam, does the law only protect the Hindu religion?
No I believe the current law applies equally to all religions.
However, Sonia Gandhi, mother of India's Congress Party leader and Prime Ministerial contender Rahul Gandhi did once try to promote a bill which would by definition hold only Hindus responsible for religious violence [1].
[1] https://www.legallyindia.com/views/entry/the-ugly-truth-behi...
However, Sonia Gandhi, mother of India's Congress Party leader and Prime Ministerial contender Rahul Gandhi did once try to promote a bill which would by definition hold only Hindus responsible for religious violence [1].
[1] https://www.legallyindia.com/views/entry/the-ugly-truth-behi...
The police made a different statement and claimed that they had only requested RazorPay donor information of any foreign donors to AltNews (which claimed that it had restricted payments only from Indian citizens in India), and that they hadn’t asked RazorPay to disable the account of AltNews. Yet, RazorPay disabled the account for a day and then enabled it.
Now, the request was made under a law (CRPC 91) that allows the police to request for any “document or thing”. So a court order is not necessary.
But there seems to be a lot that’s not being revealed here honestly.
While I wouldn’t blame RazorPay for being yet another scared Indian company that obeys (perceived) authority immediately for any request from any government entity, it doesn’t bode well that no Indian started company stands up to law enforcement or the government. Only some multinational companies seem to have the guts to question unreasonable requests.
Indian laws are overly broad and sometimes it seems like the whole system can be simplified into a few sentences that allows government authorities in any department to request or takeover anything and cite “national security” or “public law and order” as the reasons. /s
Seriously though, the “largest democracy” tag doesn’t go well with the laws and the legal system. It’s a disappointment and a shame.
Now, the request was made under a law (CRPC 91) that allows the police to request for any “document or thing”. So a court order is not necessary.
But there seems to be a lot that’s not being revealed here honestly.
While I wouldn’t blame RazorPay for being yet another scared Indian company that obeys (perceived) authority immediately for any request from any government entity, it doesn’t bode well that no Indian started company stands up to law enforcement or the government. Only some multinational companies seem to have the guts to question unreasonable requests.
Indian laws are overly broad and sometimes it seems like the whole system can be simplified into a few sentences that allows government authorities in any department to request or takeover anything and cite “national security” or “public law and order” as the reasons. /s
Seriously though, the “largest democracy” tag doesn’t go well with the laws and the legal system. It’s a disappointment and a shame.
The rule of law in india is an elaborate sham. The law is whatever you are told by any tentacle of the Indian government. The worst part is that there is no recourse - literally none. Many in the west don't have a good grasp of how the legal and administrative systems function in a country like india.
As for "largest democracy" it is true if you consider India's voting system. It is among the best in the world at access and transparency. Unfortunately, every other aspect of democracy is a joke in india.
The law you cited is intentionally vague. It is this way to give the government and administration the means to weaponize the state against the little guy.
As for "largest democracy" it is true if you consider India's voting system. It is among the best in the world at access and transparency. Unfortunately, every other aspect of democracy is a joke in india.
The law you cited is intentionally vague. It is this way to give the government and administration the means to weaponize the state against the little guy.
Razorpay acted completely in accordance with Indian laws. They shared this information because they received a written order under section 91 of the Criminal Procedure Code (CrPC) of India[1]. This does not mandate a court order to produce the required documents. The order can be given by the officer in charge of a police station as well.
1. https://indiankanoon.org/doc/788840/
1. https://indiankanoon.org/doc/788840/
This might come as a surprise to most people on this page but India and other countries around the world actually have there own laws and don't follow US laws.
No court order is required for this data. The relevant law states this:
Whenever any Court or any officer in charge of a police station considers that the production of any document or other thing is necessary or desirable for the purposes of any investigation, inquiry, trial or other proceeding under this Code by or before such Court or officer, such Court may issue a summons, or such officer a written order, to the person in whose possession or power such document or thing is believed to be, requiring him to attend and produce it, or to produce it, at the time and place stated in the summons or order.
No court order is required for this data. The relevant law states this:
Whenever any Court or any officer in charge of a police station considers that the production of any document or other thing is necessary or desirable for the purposes of any investigation, inquiry, trial or other proceeding under this Code by or before such Court or officer, such Court may issue a summons, or such officer a written order, to the person in whose possession or power such document or thing is believed to be, requiring him to attend and produce it, or to produce it, at the time and place stated in the summons or order.
It's not about your laws vs my laws — I think we can objectively judge what sort of protections make sense for someone who doesn't necessarily agree with the government of the day, without going into defensive nationalism.
The OP is not telling the complete story and maligning RazorPay and the current Indian government. Such one-sided posts do not belong here.
This co-founder of AltNews has been habitually mocking the Hindu deities and would delete his offending posts whenever caught.
His position on religion can be summed up below:
If you mock my God, I will ensure that you face the maximum repercussions possible. However, if I mock your God, I will play victim and bring my entire ecosystem together to discredit you.
Folks reading this, things are far more complex than made out to be. Read all the sides before reaching a conclusion.
This co-founder of AltNews has been habitually mocking the Hindu deities and would delete his offending posts whenever caught.
His position on religion can be summed up below:
If you mock my God, I will ensure that you face the maximum repercussions possible. However, if I mock your God, I will play victim and bring my entire ecosystem together to discredit you.
Folks reading this, things are far more complex than made out to be. Read all the sides before reaching a conclusion.
I have not seen the government official who mocked a God (Nupur) face "the maximum repercussions possible" for doing so
There are real threats to her life. She has been suspended from the party. In the last 1 month, the radical Muslims have already beheaded [1][2] two Hindus for sharing Nupur's comments. Every other week there is a video [3] from a radical Muslim clamoring for her blood.
What more repercussions you want for the lady?
[1] https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/udaipur/udaipur-tai... [2] https://www.india.com/maharashtra/week-before-udaipur-behead... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctBA12KlSAo
What more repercussions you want for the lady?
[1] https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/udaipur/udaipur-tai... [2] https://www.india.com/maharashtra/week-before-udaipur-behead... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctBA12KlSAo
There are also threats to the lives of those protesting the government, as well as those who are simply Muslim. In that respect, Nupur is no different from those she attacked, aside from her having exceptional powers to defend herself.
As for your question, how about actual, official government consequences for her actions, similar to the ones the government imposes on similar offenses committed by Indian people of Muslim faith?
As for your question, how about actual, official government consequences for her actions, similar to the ones the government imposes on similar offenses committed by Indian people of Muslim faith?
Please improve your knowledge of the matter.
In ref to your 1st comment, she is NOT a govt official. She never held any position in the govt pre or post incident. Party spokesperson != Govt official.
There are several FIRs filed on her across the country. That is an official government consequence.
I'm not sure if you have a balanced perspective or just blindly supporting actions against her.
Do you have any idea why she uttered what she uttered? Go through the complete video clip (not the edited one), you would understand. A person of Muslim faith was persistently mocking a Hindu deity on a news show. She got agitated and all she did was commented - rather crudely - on the Muslim God in return. (Whatever she commented on the Muslim God is on record and said by Muslim scholars and is written in Hadith) This became the flashpoint of the debate. For the life of me, I can't understand, how your mocking my faith is fine but my mocking back becomes a crime? AltNews anchor, Zubair, edited out the part said by Muslim panelist and just showed what Nupur said. This was picked up by their ecosystem and flashed across the Middle East nations.
In ref to your 1st comment, she is NOT a govt official. She never held any position in the govt pre or post incident. Party spokesperson != Govt official.
There are several FIRs filed on her across the country. That is an official government consequence.
I'm not sure if you have a balanced perspective or just blindly supporting actions against her.
Do you have any idea why she uttered what she uttered? Go through the complete video clip (not the edited one), you would understand. A person of Muslim faith was persistently mocking a Hindu deity on a news show. She got agitated and all she did was commented - rather crudely - on the Muslim God in return. (Whatever she commented on the Muslim God is on record and said by Muslim scholars and is written in Hadith) This became the flashpoint of the debate. For the life of me, I can't understand, how your mocking my faith is fine but my mocking back becomes a crime? AltNews anchor, Zubair, edited out the part said by Muslim panelist and just showed what Nupur said. This was picked up by their ecosystem and flashed across the Middle East nations.
I consider the spokesperson for the party leading the government to carry more weight than a journalist, but that's beside the point. I'm ignoring the pretexts and prevarications, not only because they aren't justifications (two wrongs don't make a right), but also because they're one-sided. There is not a venue, for instance, where those of the religious minority being persecuted, can seek a trial judged by a jury of their peers, and present their own justifications, while those of Hindu faith are nearly guaranteed it. Thus, those of the latter faith can realistically mock those of the former faith with no official punishment, whereas the inverse is punished by the government severely.
Contrast the FIR you mentioned, issued at long last, only after criticism, with the family home being demolished without due process, of some Muslim Indians who engaged in that very criticism of the ruling party's bias, thus reinforcing that very bias
Contrast the FIR you mentioned, issued at long last, only after criticism, with the family home being demolished without due process, of some Muslim Indians who engaged in that very criticism of the ruling party's bias, thus reinforcing that very bias
>>while those of Hindu faith are nearly guaranteed it.<<
I am neither a Hindu nor a Muslim and belong to a religious minority in India. We are less than 1% of the population. There are several minority religions like mine that peacefully co-exist in India. If Hindus were so bad as you want to made out to be, we would have been annihilated by now. I can confidently say this, Hindus are the one of the MOST peaceful communities in the world. However if you try to instigate them, do expect a resistance and backlash.
Do you know at the time of partition in 1947, there remained (rough estimate) 7% Muslims in India and 7% Hindus in Pakistan. The Hindu population in Pakistan has decimated to less than 1% while Muslims in India have increased to 20% of the Indian population. Where on earth do you find a community which is allegedly persecuted yet continue to flourish?
For God's sake, stop believing in half truths. I can continue to answer your so-called persecution of Muslims and you will continue with classic Whataboutery. Folks whose houses were demolished were not because of mere criticism but it was due to 1) They have created illegal houses and govt had sent notices to them several times over past several years. 2) They rioted and threw stones at Police. Yes, because of the trigger provided by 2) , the administration went ahead and executed corrective steps for 1) which they would have done possibly after some more time.
Instead of blaming everyone out there and playing victim, take a step back, look within and ask yourself why is that Muslim community can't live in peace anywhere in the world? 9/11, 26/11, France, Europe, UK, Israel, India, Afghanistan; they aren't happy anywhere.
I am neither a Hindu nor a Muslim and belong to a religious minority in India. We are less than 1% of the population. There are several minority religions like mine that peacefully co-exist in India. If Hindus were so bad as you want to made out to be, we would have been annihilated by now. I can confidently say this, Hindus are the one of the MOST peaceful communities in the world. However if you try to instigate them, do expect a resistance and backlash.
Do you know at the time of partition in 1947, there remained (rough estimate) 7% Muslims in India and 7% Hindus in Pakistan. The Hindu population in Pakistan has decimated to less than 1% while Muslims in India have increased to 20% of the Indian population. Where on earth do you find a community which is allegedly persecuted yet continue to flourish?
For God's sake, stop believing in half truths. I can continue to answer your so-called persecution of Muslims and you will continue with classic Whataboutery. Folks whose houses were demolished were not because of mere criticism but it was due to 1) They have created illegal houses and govt had sent notices to them several times over past several years. 2) They rioted and threw stones at Police. Yes, because of the trigger provided by 2) , the administration went ahead and executed corrective steps for 1) which they would have done possibly after some more time.
Instead of blaming everyone out there and playing victim, take a step back, look within and ask yourself why is that Muslim community can't live in peace anywhere in the world? 9/11, 26/11, France, Europe, UK, Israel, India, Afghanistan; they aren't happy anywhere.
>If Hindus were so bad as you want to made out to be
I stopped reading there, when you pivoted from defending viewpoints to attacking the person you're discussing with
when you need to misrepresent what I've said so early on in trying to make your point, it means your point is bad -- twitter-discussion-level-bad -- so keep such discussion misbehavior there, please
I stopped reading there, when you pivoted from defending viewpoints to attacking the person you're discussing with
when you need to misrepresent what I've said so early on in trying to make your point, it means your point is bad -- twitter-discussion-level-bad -- so keep such discussion misbehavior there, please
- You come with lack of knowledge of the issue in the discussion.
- You present half truths
- You cast aspersions on Indian judiciary because supposedly Hindus will only support Hindus.(I am giving you a benefit of doubt and took liberty to convert “jury” to judiciary. If you really meant jury you should never ever discuss India)
When I call that out and also tried telling you what actual minority of India* thinks about Hindus in general, I am the one who is misrepresenting. Wow! ( Perhaps you were left with no intelligent counter argument, so simply attack me and accuse me of misrepresenting)
Please try these tactics some where else, HN is certainly not the place.
*Edit: Typo
- You present half truths
- You cast aspersions on Indian judiciary because supposedly Hindus will only support Hindus.(I am giving you a benefit of doubt and took liberty to convert “jury” to judiciary. If you really meant jury you should never ever discuss India)
When I call that out and also tried telling you what actual minority of India* thinks about Hindus in general, I am the one who is misrepresenting. Wow! ( Perhaps you were left with no intelligent counter argument, so simply attack me and accuse me of misrepresenting)
Please try these tactics some where else, HN is certainly not the place.
*Edit: Typo
I do none of those things, and your response is nothing but more pathetic attempts to redirect the discussion to be about me (ad hominem attacks/fallacies)
this tells me that your positions are indefensible on their own merits, and that you have no substantial response to the actual points I raised
this tells me that your positions are indefensible on their own merits, and that you have no substantial response to the actual points I raised
Since when countering half truths is known as an attack?
Since when countering lack of knowledge is known as a fallacy?
I have answered each and every half-truth filled query of yours. You chose to play victim when you found you were left with no answers.
Someone more sensible and mature would have apologized and moved-on for this sheer lack of knowledge about the issue and the country.
Perhaps I should have stopped myself when you used the term "jury" in Indian context.
Keep basking in the glory of your ignorance and keep playing a victim card!
Since when countering lack of knowledge is known as a fallacy?
I have answered each and every half-truth filled query of yours. You chose to play victim when you found you were left with no answers.
Someone more sensible and mature would have apologized and moved-on for this sheer lack of knowledge about the issue and the country.
Perhaps I should have stopped myself when you used the term "jury" in Indian context.
Keep basking in the glory of your ignorance and keep playing a victim card!
While I have no sympathy for razorpay but I'd just like to point out that laws in India are much more heavy handed than a country like US. People are thrown in jail for social media posts and sometimes just for liking a social media post(1)
Twitter has been having a very hard time operating in India too(2) and routinely censoring stuff so while IANAL just remember that things are very different in different parts of the world.
(1) https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/arrested-over-a-fa...?
(2) https://restofworld.org/2022/twitters-censorship-india/
Twitter has been having a very hard time operating in India too(2) and routinely censoring stuff so while IANAL just remember that things are very different in different parts of the world.
(1) https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/arrested-over-a-fa...?
(2) https://restofworld.org/2022/twitters-censorship-india/
India is weird. It's not really called authoritarian (rankings don't classify it as such), but there are many similar stories of government dysfunction and overreach. Maybe someone else has a word for them?
Corrupt is an appropriate word for this kind of behavior. The government does not officially condone the behavior, and it would probably function well if the policies were followed as written. But instead people get some power and abuse it. India is not unique, many countries struggle with corruption.
Many? Which countries do not suffer from corruption? This seems to be the human condition. As the old saying goes, “power corrupts…”. It’s not of question of “if” a country is corrupt, it is “how much”.
True but India does seem to be steeped in it. I once bribed someone in India accidentally and didn't realise what had happened till afterwards. That's how embedded it is in daily life. I can't imagine that happening anywhere else I've been and I've been a few places.
What happened? Sounds like an interesting story
It's more a matter of scale and how embedded it is in everyday life.
Getting almost anything done without having to wait months / years / decades requires some form of black money payment ie a bribe.
Getting almost anything done without having to wait months / years / decades requires some form of black money payment ie a bribe.
For example: have you personally ever had to bribe someone, thought about it, or even considered it a possibility?
Corruption is large enough in India to have an entire political party dedicated to the issue (Aam Aadmi Party).
Heres the interesting thing though. A majority of Indian citizens would agree with this overreach. If the majority agrees with heavy handed tactics and they are enforced by elected officials with at least reasonably fair elections then is it right to call it an autocracy?
I don’t agree with any of this of course but it is unfortunate reality here.
I don’t agree with any of this of course but it is unfortunate reality here.
The phenomenon what you mention is called "Tyranny of Majority", great many thinkers have indeed weighed on this.
Fear of such a tyranny of the majority is why the founders of the US created the electoral college, and apportioned the Senate as it is, creating a republic instead of a pure democracy. It also describes the original ideological distinction between Republicans and Democrats, the two main political parties in the US. James Madison described a scenario like this in his Federalist Paper #10.
"Complaints are everywhere ... that the public good is disregarded in the conflicts of rival parties, and that measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority."
"Complaints are everywhere ... that the public good is disregarded in the conflicts of rival parties, and that measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority."
Folks belonging to majority can get caught on the wrong side of the fence too - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/editor-arreste...
I believe the problem is laws related to religion and hate speech. They are stupid. Section 295 is non-bailable offence and can be easily abused by either side to placate group that feels offended.
The discussions about India sliding into authoritarian is interesting because strictly speaking many of these laws are pretty old. I wish that these laws did not exist but strictly speaking these laws have been abused to placate Hindus, Muslims, Christians(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_crucifix_in_Mumbai) at different times.
I believe the problem is laws related to religion and hate speech. They are stupid. Section 295 is non-bailable offence and can be easily abused by either side to placate group that feels offended.
The discussions about India sliding into authoritarian is interesting because strictly speaking many of these laws are pretty old. I wish that these laws did not exist but strictly speaking these laws have been abused to placate Hindus, Muslims, Christians(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_crucifix_in_Mumbai) at different times.
Tyranny of the majority.
tedivm(1)
It is an electoral autocracy. Merely having elections doesn't make it "democratic". Certainly not if much of mainstream media is under the ownership of the biggest "donors" of the current ruling disposition.
Alternative crowd sourced media houses such as AltNews, The Wire among others are under real danger as are socio-political activists, union organizers, smaller opposition political parties, etc.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56393944
Alternative crowd sourced media houses such as AltNews, The Wire among others are under real danger as are socio-political activists, union organizers, smaller opposition political parties, etc.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-56393944
I think hate speech laws in India are overboard - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_India and although not enacted by current govt. it can be easily abused by police and that is what is happening in many instances.
These laws are vague to a fault and govt. has given themselves too much power (and I do not see it changing anytime soon, who wants to give up power?). It is easy to selectively apply these laws and that in itself can promote enmity that these laws were designed to protect from.
These laws are vague to a fault and govt. has given themselves too much power (and I do not see it changing anytime soon, who wants to give up power?). It is easy to selectively apply these laws and that in itself can promote enmity that these laws were designed to protect from.
The India system is essentially a system of “who you know”. Anyone who grew up in India knows that if you’re a powerful bureaucrat, cop, or politician, you can do whatever you want. The law doesn’t really apply to you.
The only exception is if you manage to piss off someone higher up in the power hierarchy.
Its not so much as authoritarian as it is Darwinian.
The only exception is if you manage to piss off someone higher up in the power hierarchy.
Its not so much as authoritarian as it is Darwinian.
I can't find it now, There was an old article talking about a Zombie party in India. Basically bribing an official to get someone declared dead was easy.
Getting it fixed was basically impossible. There was some guy running for office who was legally dead.
That’s called nepotism, not Darwinian.
Well so was the case in USA few years back.
It is not about govt per se (which is grappling with bigger issues - Russia, Srilanka..) but is about mid and lower level politicians, govt and police officers..
Also the pattern is inconsistent, some regions in India is polar opposite to this kind of right leanings - Ex. East of India. Some are neutral - most of South India. India is a large and complex country; the general sentiment is no different than looking at Ireland and thinking French politics generally sucks (or whatever appropriate example.. I have no clue how politics is in either of these countries).
It is not about govt per se (which is grappling with bigger issues - Russia, Srilanka..) but is about mid and lower level politicians, govt and police officers..
Also the pattern is inconsistent, some regions in India is polar opposite to this kind of right leanings - Ex. East of India. Some are neutral - most of South India. India is a large and complex country; the general sentiment is no different than looking at Ireland and thinking French politics generally sucks (or whatever appropriate example.. I have no clue how politics is in either of these countries).
A lack of rule of law? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law
That's true. India is a severely under-policed country.
Yeah its only "sort of" authoritarian, in most regions you can live quite a free life.
The cases where it becomes authoritarian is when it comes to religion and criticism of the government. This is the reason that the majority of the population does not even believe in issues that exist (social, political, ecological or otherwise).
The cases where it becomes authoritarian is when it comes to religion and criticism of the government. This is the reason that the majority of the population does not even believe in issues that exist (social, political, ecological or otherwise).
As I mentioned above - criticism of any kind of religion can get you in trouble in India[1][2]. But we should not lump that with criticism of government.
Do you have any examples, where someone was arrested for simply criticising govt actions?
1. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/editor-arreste...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_crucifix_in_Mumbai
Do you have any examples, where someone was arrested for simply criticising govt actions?
1. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/editor-arreste...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_crucifix_in_Mumbai
>Do you have any examples, where someone was arrested for simply criticising govt actions?
Muslim citizens of India being arrested for criticizing the government's action of insulting their religion
One even had their family home demolished without any due process as revenge for criticizing the government
Muslim citizens of India being arrested for criticizing the government's action of insulting their religion
One even had their family home demolished without any due process as revenge for criticizing the government
That just sounds like literally any other authoritarian country. Freedom of speech never was needed in order to speak things which are commonly agreed and central government approved.
>It's not really called authoritarian (rankings don't classify it as such)
Because they serve US interest, especially against China.
Despite "authoritarian" being a buzzword, you should maybe base your views on a country on your observations (such as the extreme violation of basic human rights in India regarding muslims, the fact that there are laws against muslim and hindu folks marrying, labelled as "love jihad", the fact that the government shot multiple people protesting against the government in 2020) and not on some obscure rankings, funded and made by US NGOs (see National Endowment for Democracy as a reference)
Hmm India has never been a close US’s ally, the latest example being their stand in the Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. They are more often than not at odd with the US’s interest. The only thing that brings the two sides together is China.
An autocracy of the majority, for the majority, by the majority.
There is a name for it, democracy.
democracy is orthogonal to what the person you replied to said, as not all democracies devolve into such authoritarianism
They are attempting to become an autocratic ethnostate
https://www.ibtimes.com/hindu-nationalists-historical-links-...
Hindu Nationalist’s Historical Links to Nazism and Fascism
Sorry for the awful source, but the predecessors of the BJP were openly patterned after European fascist movements, there were contacts between them and a mutual affection. There's even a strain of European mystic Hindu Nazism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitri_Devi
Hindu Nationalist’s Historical Links to Nazism and Fascism
Sorry for the awful source, but the predecessors of the BJP were openly patterned after European fascist movements, there were contacts between them and a mutual affection. There's even a strain of European mystic Hindu Nazism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savitri_Devi
kleptocracy
> ...laws in India are much more heavy handed than a country like US.
AltNews alleges that RazorPay banned their account (and later restored it) without cause: https://archive.is/R9OJ8
To me, it seems like RazorPay simply buckled under pressure. Why wouldn't they, they need to be in bed with the central govt, or their business falls apart pretty quick.
AltNews alleges that RazorPay banned their account (and later restored it) without cause: https://archive.is/R9OJ8
To me, it seems like RazorPay simply buckled under pressure. Why wouldn't they, they need to be in bed with the central govt, or their business falls apart pretty quick.
But as the article suggests why was there a need to share data of all donors, they could have shared only those that originated outside India.
There were no transactions originating outside India, the payments were configured to accept only Indian cards.
Well, my inner cynic assumes that authorities know that. And that is exactly the reason why the wanted the records. Might be a tad hard to crack down on foreign donors, harassing domestic ones on the other hand...
LoL. They don't recieve payment from foreign countries.
And this is billed as "world's largest democracy". Wtf is the bullshit we are made to believe? Why don't we just stop pretending and relabel most "democratic" countries as just "pro-Westnern"?
> And this is billed as "world's largest democracy". Wtf is the bullshit we are made to believe? Why don't we just stop pretending and relabel most "democratic" countries as just "pro-Westnern"?
India is not pro-Western, and none of those things upthread are inconsistent with democracy. They are illiberal, perhaps, but not all democracy is liberal democracy.
India is not pro-Western, and none of those things upthread are inconsistent with democracy. They are illiberal, perhaps, but not all democracy is liberal democracy.
>none of those things upthread are inconsistent with democracy. They are illiberal, perhaps, but not all democracy is liberal democracy.
This line of reasoning feels like a motte and bailey to me. When that fact is being trotted out by supporters it's almost always a comparison to liberal democracies. I doubt when Indians say "we're the largest democracy" they're comparing themselves to russia.
This line of reasoning feels like a motte and bailey to me. When that fact is being trotted out by supporters it's almost always a comparison to liberal democracies. I doubt when Indians say "we're the largest democracy" they're comparing themselves to russia.
> billed as "world's largest democracy". Wtf is the bullshit we are made to believe?
New York Times:
“India is valued the world over for a great many things, but for three over others: the Taj Mahal, Mahatma Gandhi and India’s electoral democracy.” It is the 17th general election in India, being held in seven phases over 38 days. Nine hundred million Indians are registered to vote! Around 70 percent are expected to vote. The voting age in India is 18, and 15 million are voting for the first time.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/opinion/india-elections.h...
USA + European Union = ~750M population (not voters)
New York Times:
“India is valued the world over for a great many things, but for three over others: the Taj Mahal, Mahatma Gandhi and India’s electoral democracy.” It is the 17th general election in India, being held in seven phases over 38 days. Nine hundred million Indians are registered to vote! Around 70 percent are expected to vote. The voting age in India is 18, and 15 million are voting for the first time.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/25/opinion/india-elections.h...
USA + European Union = ~750M population (not voters)
India has a very effective and fair electoral system, that's about it. The other branches and foundations of a liberal democracy are either a sham or crumbling in India.
Minorities are routinely targeted, court judgments are filled with personal opinions... i could go on.
The mere existence of a voting system does not a full democracy make. Remember, Russia also has "elections".
Minorities are routinely targeted, court judgments are filled with personal opinions... i could go on.
The mere existence of a voting system does not a full democracy make. Remember, Russia also has "elections".
> Minorities are routinely targeted..
> court judgments are filled with personal opinions..
Sounds like another country that we know of.
> court judgments are filled with personal opinions..
Sounds like another country that we know of.
yes, India
India is a "non-aligned" country, it's not "pro-Western". They have good relations with Russia, which is their main weapons supplier.
The West tends to cultivate them in relation to China, at which point calling them "the biggest democracy in the world" is simply a propaganda tool to sell them as the 'good guys' to public opinions (vs. China who are obviously the 'bad guys'). But the issues between India and China are independent of any "pro-Western" stance or political system, they are purely based on conflicts of interests between those two countries, including left-overs from the British Empire when it comes to border disputes.
The West tends to cultivate them in relation to China, at which point calling them "the biggest democracy in the world" is simply a propaganda tool to sell them as the 'good guys' to public opinions (vs. China who are obviously the 'bad guys'). But the issues between India and China are independent of any "pro-Western" stance or political system, they are purely based on conflicts of interests between those two countries, including left-overs from the British Empire when it comes to border disputes.
> billed as "world's largest democracy".
This is what you are made to believe by the propaganda machine. As someone else mentioned here, India is "elected autocracy". And "first-past-the-post" election doesn't mean the government has support of the majority of Indians.
Sad to say as an Indian, India is going Russia way.
This is what you are made to believe by the propaganda machine. As someone else mentioned here, India is "elected autocracy". And "first-past-the-post" election doesn't mean the government has support of the majority of Indians.
Sad to say as an Indian, India is going Russia way.
[deleted]
The laws in India are quite similar to US. Unfortunately, current practice and interpretation is far from what was envisioned in the constitution.
Heavy handed? They are straight up barbaric not democratic. More similar to China then democratic countries
harpic(3)
Here's what happened:
- Nupur Sharma, spokesperson of the governing party (BJP) mocks Prophet Mohammed on National TV saying that he had sex with a 9 year old. She then justifies it saying she was quoting the Hadith (Islamic religious texts).
- ZooBear on Twitter brings attention to the issue, via his channel AltNews
- India gets international condemnation, Gulf countries are pissed
- India apologizes to various Gulf countries and calls Nupur Sharma a "fringe element"
- Muslims in India are still very, very angry. There are widespread calls to behead Nupur Sharma.
- Two people get murdered (one beheaded and the video streamed) for supporting Nupur Sharma on Social Media
- Now it's Hindus' turn to be pissed; they want ZooBear arrested (using whatever laws they can find)
- They dig up ZooBear's own old social media posts, file cases against him using blasphemy laws, and he gets arrested
- The govt is pissed too; so they try to lock ZooBear up under various laws, such as laws pertaining to how international donations need to be accounted
- The police ask RazorPay to hand over a list of people who have donated to AltNews, under Section 91 of the Code Of Criminal Procedure
- They comply.
- Nupur Sharma, spokesperson of the governing party (BJP) mocks Prophet Mohammed on National TV saying that he had sex with a 9 year old. She then justifies it saying she was quoting the Hadith (Islamic religious texts).
- ZooBear on Twitter brings attention to the issue, via his channel AltNews
- India gets international condemnation, Gulf countries are pissed
- India apologizes to various Gulf countries and calls Nupur Sharma a "fringe element"
- Muslims in India are still very, very angry. There are widespread calls to behead Nupur Sharma.
- Two people get murdered (one beheaded and the video streamed) for supporting Nupur Sharma on Social Media
- Now it's Hindus' turn to be pissed; they want ZooBear arrested (using whatever laws they can find)
- They dig up ZooBear's own old social media posts, file cases against him using blasphemy laws, and he gets arrested
- The govt is pissed too; so they try to lock ZooBear up under various laws, such as laws pertaining to how international donations need to be accounted
- The police ask RazorPay to hand over a list of people who have donated to AltNews, under Section 91 of the Code Of Criminal Procedure
- They comply.
Holy cow. Thanks for the context.
> - Two people get murdered (one beheaded and the video streamed) for supporting Nupur Sharma on Social Media
JFC, humans suck.
Also interesting after looking into it is that ZooBear has tweet after tweet mocking Hinduism, yet takes extreme offense at someone mocking Islam and seems to consider it hate speech.
> - Two people get murdered (one beheaded and the video streamed) for supporting Nupur Sharma on Social Media
JFC, humans suck.
Also interesting after looking into it is that ZooBear has tweet after tweet mocking Hinduism, yet takes extreme offense at someone mocking Islam and seems to consider it hate speech.
> ZooBear has tweet after tweet mocking Hinduism
Absolutely false. Can you share one?
Absolutely false. Can you share one?
There were plenty. But I think they were deleted now.
Whenever I think US politics have gone off the rails, it's perhaps comforting to see other countries are way worse.
Except this kind of system (significant nepotism, open corruption, a government that people mostly don't have faith in, strongly charged with religious fervor and rhetoric) Is pretty much exactly what the more aggressive parts of the American Right are literally trying to make happen.
Oh, and they are succeeding spectacularly.
Oh, and they are succeeding spectacularly.
Not entirely true.
- TV debates in India are charged and partisan.
- Nupur Sharma was debating a man named Tasneem Rehmani.
- Tasleem Rehmani said something denigrating towards a Hindu God (which is normal and typically goes unpunished and even unnoticed in India).
- Nupur Sharma countered him by saying "Do not mock my religion. Do you want me to start talking about flying horses or the fact that your Prophet married a girl at age 6 and consummated the marriage at age 9?"
- Various Islamic scholars have themselves said exactly what Nupur Sharma said. She was merely quoting their own texts in a debate.
- Debate goes on and ends. Nothing happens for days.
- Self-proclaimed 'fact checker' (not a journalist, according to himself) Mohammed Zubair edits this debate clip, removes the provocation by Tasneem Rehmani, only showing Nupur Sharma 'insulting' this religious Prophet.
- Zubair then distributes this clip across social media and various Islamic Whatsapp groups.
- In India, free speech is not absolute. Saying and doing things to create enmity between religious groups is a crime.
- The fact that what Nupur Sharma says is factual and simply a response to what Tasneem Rehmani said, becomes irrelevant.
- Many Muslims in India, millions of whom study in Islamic seminaries (madrasas), are whipped into a frenzy and behead multiple people with the slogan 'Sar Tan Se Juda' (meaning they will separate heads from bodies, in the ISIS style).
- Police and agencies arrest this 'fact checker' Zubair and are looking into his funding. This is where the RazorPay data comes in.
- Prior to his arrest, he deletes several of his social media posts and tweets mocking Hindu Gods.
- Various organizations like the BBC, New York Times, Al Jazeera as well as India's left leaning publications decry Zubair's arrest as an 'attack on democracy'.
- TV debates in India are charged and partisan.
- Nupur Sharma was debating a man named Tasneem Rehmani.
- Tasleem Rehmani said something denigrating towards a Hindu God (which is normal and typically goes unpunished and even unnoticed in India).
- Nupur Sharma countered him by saying "Do not mock my religion. Do you want me to start talking about flying horses or the fact that your Prophet married a girl at age 6 and consummated the marriage at age 9?"
- Various Islamic scholars have themselves said exactly what Nupur Sharma said. She was merely quoting their own texts in a debate.
- Debate goes on and ends. Nothing happens for days.
- Self-proclaimed 'fact checker' (not a journalist, according to himself) Mohammed Zubair edits this debate clip, removes the provocation by Tasneem Rehmani, only showing Nupur Sharma 'insulting' this religious Prophet.
- Zubair then distributes this clip across social media and various Islamic Whatsapp groups.
- In India, free speech is not absolute. Saying and doing things to create enmity between religious groups is a crime.
- The fact that what Nupur Sharma says is factual and simply a response to what Tasneem Rehmani said, becomes irrelevant.
- Many Muslims in India, millions of whom study in Islamic seminaries (madrasas), are whipped into a frenzy and behead multiple people with the slogan 'Sar Tan Se Juda' (meaning they will separate heads from bodies, in the ISIS style).
- Police and agencies arrest this 'fact checker' Zubair and are looking into his funding. This is where the RazorPay data comes in.
- Prior to his arrest, he deletes several of his social media posts and tweets mocking Hindu Gods.
- Various organizations like the BBC, New York Times, Al Jazeera as well as India's left leaning publications decry Zubair's arrest as an 'attack on democracy'.
> Tasleem Rehmani said something denigrating towards a Hindu God
I watched that entire debate and he didn't say anything degrading towards Hindu Gods.
Here's the context- Hindu RW claimed a fountain in Gyanvapi mosque (situated in Kashi) as Shivalinga (God Shiva's phallus)[0] which is a part of larger campaign of claiming Muslims mosques as Hindu temples by RSS/BJP. Started with demolition of Babri mosque (situated in Ayodhya) in 1992.[1] The war-cry of the time was "Ayodhya to zaki hai. Kashi Mathura baki hai" (Ayodhya is just a trailer. Kashi and Mathura are remaining)
Many Indians (majorly we secular Hindus) made fun of communal Hindus for claiming anything shaped like a phallus to be a "Shivalinga". I myself shared how in 1990s Hindus in San Fransisco started worshiping traffic barricade as "Shivalinga".[2]
[0] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/hindu-group-recognise...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_of_the_Babri_Masjid
[2] https://www.freepressjournal.in/viral/san-francisco-people-w...
I watched that entire debate and he didn't say anything degrading towards Hindu Gods.
Here's the context- Hindu RW claimed a fountain in Gyanvapi mosque (situated in Kashi) as Shivalinga (God Shiva's phallus)[0] which is a part of larger campaign of claiming Muslims mosques as Hindu temples by RSS/BJP. Started with demolition of Babri mosque (situated in Ayodhya) in 1992.[1] The war-cry of the time was "Ayodhya to zaki hai. Kashi Mathura baki hai" (Ayodhya is just a trailer. Kashi and Mathura are remaining)
Many Indians (majorly we secular Hindus) made fun of communal Hindus for claiming anything shaped like a phallus to be a "Shivalinga". I myself shared how in 1990s Hindus in San Fransisco started worshiping traffic barricade as "Shivalinga".[2]
[0] https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/hindu-group-recognise...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demolition_of_the_Babri_Masjid
[2] https://www.freepressjournal.in/viral/san-francisco-people-w...
> Many Indians (majorly we secular Hindus) made fun of communal Hindus for claiming anything shaped like a phallus to be a "Shivalinga". I myself shared how in 1990s Hindus in San Fransisco started worshiping traffic barricade as "Shivalinga".
I will offer you a rhetorical choice. Either we agree on free speech: that you or Tasneem Rehmani or anyone else is allowed to publicly mock Hinduism by saying things like you just did: "Hindu Gods are phallic in shape" etc. and in return Hindus are allowed to mock your favorite religion or way of life in any way. Or we agree instead on no free speech: that neither anyone can mock Hindus in any way nor can Hindus mock others (as is enforced by HR departments in companies). Either way, we will make it a level playing field.
I say this choice is rhetorical because this choice does not really exist.
In reality, if Hindus are mocked, violence is rare. Hindus have no text or decree saying that if they are insulted they must engage in violence. In the rare cases there is violence, it is not due to mockery but in response to extreme acts of violence. And even so, there are groups within Hindus who will hold them to account. One oft cited example by people like you in the context of Modi are the 2002 Gujarat riots where Hindus retaliated on the streets after 59 Hindus were burned alive by a Muslim mob in a train compartment. For 20 years, every left-leaning Indian and Western publication, the usual suspects, likened him to 'fascist hitler', even though he has been exonerated at every level of court in India, including in the final appeal by the Supreme Court recently [1].
However, if Islam is mocked or even questioned, there will be threats, intimidation, violence. The Nupur Sharma case is not the first and will not be the last. As examples, see cases of Salman Rushdie [2], Ayaan Hirsi Ali [3], Geert Wilders [4], Samuel Paty [5], Charlie Hebdo [6], Mila [7], Asia Bibi [8], Salman Taseer [9], Taslima Nasrin [10] and countless more.
You are well aware of this double standard. You openly mock Hindu Gods because you are pretty certain nobody will hunt you down and kill you. You do not ever publicly mock or criticize the Islamic faith because you know you do not enjoy that same guarantee.
Winston Churchill summarized this quite well: "While the Hindu elaborates his argument, the Moslem sharpens his sword.".
I believe this double standard must change. Hindus must learn from Israel in this regard. If you hurt the Jewish people in any way, they will hurt you back. You are a 100 year old ex-Nazi in Argentina? Does not matter, the Mossad is on its way. You express an anti-Semitic opinion somewhere? You will never find meaningful work again.
> Here's the context- Hindu RW claimed a fountain in Gyanvapi mosque (situated in Kashi) as Shivalinga (God Shiva's phallus)[0] which is a part of larger campaign of claiming Muslims mosques as Hindu temples by RSS/BJP. Started with demolition of Babri mosque (situated in Ayodhya) in 1992.[1] The war-cry of the time was "Ayodhya to zaki hai. Kashi Mathura baki hai" (Ayodhya is just a trailer. Kashi and Mathura are remaining)
Simply put, you seem to be unaware of the fact that Islamic invaders destroyed places of worship wherever they went as a sign of religious conquest. In India, several waves of Islamic hordes over time destroyed tens of thousands of temples in addition to libraries and other cultural centers. The ones you list are some of the most prominent and sacred to Hindus. Islamic historians bragged about this in their own chronicles.
Upon gaining independence, any self respecting country would have restored all landmarks: city names, places of worship etc. tainted by signs of conquest to their original form. But for reasons I will not discuss here, India did not do so. Hindus must therefore fight these battles in court.
Hindus and India aside, see the cases of Hagia Sophia, converted from a church to a mosque in 1453 after the Islamic conquest of Constantinople, "the cradle of Orthodox Christian civilization"; and the Al-Aqsa mosque built at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem following Islamic conquest there. There are several other cases [11].
Samuel Huntington wrote: "Violence also occurs between Muslims, on the one hand, and Orthodox Serbs in the Balkans, Jews in Israel, Hindus in India, Buddhists in Burma and Catholics in the Philippines. Islam has bloody borders."
Just because you lack even the most basic knowledge of Indian history (due to no fault of your own; just the way it was taught or not taught to you), it does not make everything a 'Hindu RW' conspiracy.
[1] https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news/supreme-court-reaffi...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses_controversy
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali#Al-Qaeda_hit_l...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders#Death_threats
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Samuel_Paty
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting
[7] https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/french-teenager-in-hiding...
[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Bibi_blasphemy_case
[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Taseer#Assassination
[10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taslima_Nasrin
[11] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Islamic_plac...
I will offer you a rhetorical choice. Either we agree on free speech: that you or Tasneem Rehmani or anyone else is allowed to publicly mock Hinduism by saying things like you just did: "Hindu Gods are phallic in shape" etc. and in return Hindus are allowed to mock your favorite religion or way of life in any way. Or we agree instead on no free speech: that neither anyone can mock Hindus in any way nor can Hindus mock others (as is enforced by HR departments in companies). Either way, we will make it a level playing field.
I say this choice is rhetorical because this choice does not really exist.
In reality, if Hindus are mocked, violence is rare. Hindus have no text or decree saying that if they are insulted they must engage in violence. In the rare cases there is violence, it is not due to mockery but in response to extreme acts of violence. And even so, there are groups within Hindus who will hold them to account. One oft cited example by people like you in the context of Modi are the 2002 Gujarat riots where Hindus retaliated on the streets after 59 Hindus were burned alive by a Muslim mob in a train compartment. For 20 years, every left-leaning Indian and Western publication, the usual suspects, likened him to 'fascist hitler', even though he has been exonerated at every level of court in India, including in the final appeal by the Supreme Court recently [1].
However, if Islam is mocked or even questioned, there will be threats, intimidation, violence. The Nupur Sharma case is not the first and will not be the last. As examples, see cases of Salman Rushdie [2], Ayaan Hirsi Ali [3], Geert Wilders [4], Samuel Paty [5], Charlie Hebdo [6], Mila [7], Asia Bibi [8], Salman Taseer [9], Taslima Nasrin [10] and countless more.
You are well aware of this double standard. You openly mock Hindu Gods because you are pretty certain nobody will hunt you down and kill you. You do not ever publicly mock or criticize the Islamic faith because you know you do not enjoy that same guarantee.
Winston Churchill summarized this quite well: "While the Hindu elaborates his argument, the Moslem sharpens his sword.".
I believe this double standard must change. Hindus must learn from Israel in this regard. If you hurt the Jewish people in any way, they will hurt you back. You are a 100 year old ex-Nazi in Argentina? Does not matter, the Mossad is on its way. You express an anti-Semitic opinion somewhere? You will never find meaningful work again.
> Here's the context- Hindu RW claimed a fountain in Gyanvapi mosque (situated in Kashi) as Shivalinga (God Shiva's phallus)[0] which is a part of larger campaign of claiming Muslims mosques as Hindu temples by RSS/BJP. Started with demolition of Babri mosque (situated in Ayodhya) in 1992.[1] The war-cry of the time was "Ayodhya to zaki hai. Kashi Mathura baki hai" (Ayodhya is just a trailer. Kashi and Mathura are remaining)
Simply put, you seem to be unaware of the fact that Islamic invaders destroyed places of worship wherever they went as a sign of religious conquest. In India, several waves of Islamic hordes over time destroyed tens of thousands of temples in addition to libraries and other cultural centers. The ones you list are some of the most prominent and sacred to Hindus. Islamic historians bragged about this in their own chronicles.
Upon gaining independence, any self respecting country would have restored all landmarks: city names, places of worship etc. tainted by signs of conquest to their original form. But for reasons I will not discuss here, India did not do so. Hindus must therefore fight these battles in court.
Hindus and India aside, see the cases of Hagia Sophia, converted from a church to a mosque in 1453 after the Islamic conquest of Constantinople, "the cradle of Orthodox Christian civilization"; and the Al-Aqsa mosque built at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem following Islamic conquest there. There are several other cases [11].
Samuel Huntington wrote: "Violence also occurs between Muslims, on the one hand, and Orthodox Serbs in the Balkans, Jews in Israel, Hindus in India, Buddhists in Burma and Catholics in the Philippines. Islam has bloody borders."
Just because you lack even the most basic knowledge of Indian history (due to no fault of your own; just the way it was taught or not taught to you), it does not make everything a 'Hindu RW' conspiracy.
[1] https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news/supreme-court-reaffi...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Verses_controversy
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali#Al-Qaeda_hit_l...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders#Death_threats
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Samuel_Paty
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting
[7] https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/french-teenager-in-hiding...
[8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Bibi_blasphemy_case
[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Taseer#Assassination
[10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taslima_Nasrin
[11] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Islamic_plac...
> Islamic Whatsapp groups.
> Prior to his arrest, he deletes several of his social media posts and tweets mocking Hindu Gods.
You're literally peddling IT cell propaganda.
> Prior to his arrest, he deletes several of his social media posts and tweets mocking Hindu Gods.
You're literally peddling IT cell propaganda.
https://socialblade.com/twitter/user/zoo_bear
This website shows 99 deleted tweets between 26th and 27th June.
This website shows 99 deleted tweets between 26th and 27th June.
TL;DR two extremists make offensive statements on television, journalist tweeting a segment from it to bring it to public attention gets arrested.
You may argue that Mohammed Zubair is somehow an evil cynical person who wants to watch the world burn, but the fact is that tweeting a segment from national television is not a criminal offence and should not be treated as such.
> which is normal and typically goes unpunished and even unnoticed in India.
Kudos for living in an alternate dimension!
You may argue that Mohammed Zubair is somehow an evil cynical person who wants to watch the world burn, but the fact is that tweeting a segment from national television is not a criminal offence and should not be treated as such.
> which is normal and typically goes unpunished and even unnoticed in India.
Kudos for living in an alternate dimension!
Well he was not arrested for it.
If he had stuck to doing what he did I guess no one would go after him.
He had caused diplomatic issues and bayed for nupurs head. It would do well to remember what a minority ABV gov did to tehelka and promotors. Guess that is what Modi gov is trying here.
If he had stuck to doing what he did I guess no one would go after him.
He had caused diplomatic issues and bayed for nupurs head. It would do well to remember what a minority ABV gov did to tehelka and promotors. Guess that is what Modi gov is trying here.
Nupur caused the diplomatic issues with her comments, as the counterparty countries with the actual issues clearly articulated to both India and the world, in response to said comments.
They jailed the CEO of Qwest who refused to share surveillance data with the NSA without a court order. This seems to be prudent in other jurisdictions as well, other than the US and now India of course.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/qwest-ceo-nsa-punished...
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/qwest-ceo-nsa-punished...
Worth noting that Nacchio was jailed for insider trading, not anything national security related. He wanted to present evidence that it was retaliatory for not working with the NSA but was not allowed to. His only other defense was he thought the company was doing better than it was even though Qwest own numbers said otherwise.
The prosecution on the other hand documented pretty extensively that he and several Qwest execs were making false claims to the press to increase the Qwest share price so they could buy US West.
The prosecution on the other hand documented pretty extensively that he and several Qwest execs were making false claims to the press to increase the Qwest share price so they could buy US West.
Apple chose not-jail and not-ban when faced with the requirement that all iCloud users in China be subject to realtime CCP surveillance. Apple's iCloud operations in China (required under Chinese law for Chinese users) are in CCP-controlled datacenters.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-ce...
Then they did it again in the USA, preserving a backdoor in the end-to-end crypto of iMessage for the FBI:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
If you are large enough, the laws don't apply to the government's strong-arm treatment of you. They have all the machine guns, you have none.
Presumably Apple de facto does not have the right to widely publish surveillance-resistant end to end crypto without state retribution for same, even on home turf with ostensible 1A rights. This is why they are deploying clientside spyware to scan your local files for CP (or anything else they are forced to scan for in the future by a adversary-controlled DoJ or DHS (hello 2025)). The secure architecture of the iPhone and iPad make it impossible to alter or disable this functionality even on your own device.
The power dynamic is the same in all large countries, regardless of political structure.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/technology/apple-china-ce...
Then they did it again in the USA, preserving a backdoor in the end-to-end crypto of iMessage for the FBI:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv...
If you are large enough, the laws don't apply to the government's strong-arm treatment of you. They have all the machine guns, you have none.
Presumably Apple de facto does not have the right to widely publish surveillance-resistant end to end crypto without state retribution for same, even on home turf with ostensible 1A rights. This is why they are deploying clientside spyware to scan your local files for CP (or anything else they are forced to scan for in the future by a adversary-controlled DoJ or DHS (hello 2025)). The secure architecture of the iPhone and iPad make it impossible to alter or disable this functionality even on your own device.
The power dynamic is the same in all large countries, regardless of political structure.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
What Apple does publicly and privately are not the same thing, and if anything, Apple has a track record of not removing loopholes that would reduce the surface area available for secret agreements and/or orders; for example, iCloud being able to view data.
Related: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter
Related: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter
iCloud Backup is not end to end encrypted and is readable by Apple. Same again for iCloud Photos. The Apple-readable iCloud Backup contains the keys for your iMessages, which means Apple can read those in realtime as they transit the servers (due to relaying the ciphertext, and having the keys from the non-e2e backup).
Even if you disable iCloud Backup, everyone else you iMessage with will back up all your iMessages from the other end, because it is on by default.
The idea that Apple can't read your data is mostly false. They can see all your photos and read all your chats, and all of the other files and app data from your device. They can do this without your device or password at any time.
They do this for the US government without a search warrant to over 30,000 user accounts per year, per their own transparency report.
Even if you disable iCloud Backup, everyone else you iMessage with will back up all your iMessages from the other end, because it is on by default.
The idea that Apple can't read your data is mostly false. They can see all your photos and read all your chats, and all of the other files and app data from your device. They can do this without your device or password at any time.
They do this for the US government without a search warrant to over 30,000 user accounts per year, per their own transparency report.
> If you are large enough, the laws don't apply to the government's strong-arm treatment of you. They have all the machine guns, you have none.
Interestingly this also works for small fish: If you are too small, you can get by without sticking to the rules because you won't be on the governments radar.
Interestingly this also works for small fish: If you are too small, you can get by without sticking to the rules because you won't be on the governments radar.
It's true. The rules applied (in practice) to small exchanges are not the same rules applied to Coinbase.
Equal application/protection under the law is a myth.
Equal application/protection under the law is a myth.
Again Altnews doesn't accept foreign donations. This is from Razorpay page for Altnews.
No foreign donations
We do not accept foreign remittance as we are not registered under the FCRA Act. Only Indian citizens with Indian bank accounts can donate currently.
No foreign donations
We do not accept foreign remittance as we are not registered under the FCRA Act. Only Indian citizens with Indian bank accounts can donate currently.
It is completely immoral that some people want to paint Altnews as boogieman receiving donations from Pak and syria.
You are all across comments section repeating this again and again.
Does a criminal ever accepts his(her) crime?
AltNews is free to write anything on their website OR on their own page on RazorPay, that doesn’t mean a thing.
There are several hundreds other payment processors and ways that they can avail to get money from foreign nations.
As of current state of investigation, Police say that he has already accepted taking money from Pakistan and Syria.
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/alt-news-co-f...
Does a criminal ever accepts his(her) crime?
AltNews is free to write anything on their website OR on their own page on RazorPay, that doesn’t mean a thing.
There are several hundreds other payment processors and ways that they can avail to get money from foreign nations.
As of current state of investigation, Police say that he has already accepted taking money from Pakistan and Syria.
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/alt-news-co-f...
If someone would remember, Proton AG (so called most secure mail and mode of communication), had to share client details under govt orders.
Razorpay is similarly following Indian law, which it has to, as it operates in India. Clickbaity title, with a throw-away account is sure doing wonders here.
Razorpay is similarly following Indian law, which it has to, as it operates in India. Clickbaity title, with a throw-away account is sure doing wonders here.
In some parts of the world, an official police request is equivalent to a court order.
I do not know too much about these.
But, couldn't they fight it in court?
But, couldn't they fight it in court?
The state of police in India is so pathetic that the founder of altnews was arrested due to a tweet which tagged local police and shared a link from a post in 2018.
Interestingly the Twitter account was created recently with zero followers.
An investigation by www.wire.in found out the same person had 750+ Twitter accounts and is some sort of leader of the ruling party BJP
https://thewire.in/tekfog/altnews.html
Interestingly the Twitter account was created recently with zero followers.
An investigation by www.wire.in found out the same person had 750+ Twitter accounts and is some sort of leader of the ruling party BJP
https://thewire.in/tekfog/altnews.html
Here is some description of Section 91:-
Whenever any Court or any officer in charge of a police station considers that the production of any document or other thing is necessary or desirable for the purposes of any investigation, inquiry, trial or other proceeding under this Code by or before such Court or officer, such Court may issue a summons, or such officer a written order, to the person in whose possession or power such document or thing is believed to be, requiring him to attend and produce it, or to produce it, at the time and place stated in the summons or ordeR
Section 91 has been used in 2020 as well by Kerala Govt ( state govt)
https://m.timesofindia.com/city/thiruvananthapuram/cbi-invok...
It seems author of this post doesn’t understand law. India penal code is fundamental from west laws.
Section is used to for “summons to produce” and comes under “process to compel production of things”
The post owner simple intention is to harm Razorpay reputation. He also changed the headline of this post from Original post.
In this section police office has full authority to produce things and it has been used prior to this case in India to produce financial documents. There is no need of court order in this scenario as per section 91.
Summon can issued by a court or police office, by law this both have same power to do so to produce document associated with the case.
Whenever any Court or any officer in charge of a police station considers that the production of any document or other thing is necessary or desirable for the purposes of any investigation, inquiry, trial or other proceeding under this Code by or before such Court or officer, such Court may issue a summons, or such officer a written order, to the person in whose possession or power such document or thing is believed to be, requiring him to attend and produce it, or to produce it, at the time and place stated in the summons or ordeR
Section 91 has been used in 2020 as well by Kerala Govt ( state govt)
https://m.timesofindia.com/city/thiruvananthapuram/cbi-invok...
It seems author of this post doesn’t understand law. India penal code is fundamental from west laws.
Section is used to for “summons to produce” and comes under “process to compel production of things”
The post owner simple intention is to harm Razorpay reputation. He also changed the headline of this post from Original post.
In this section police office has full authority to produce things and it has been used prior to this case in India to produce financial documents. There is no need of court order in this scenario as per section 91.
Summon can issued by a court or police office, by law this both have same power to do so to produce document associated with the case.
I've always wondered this but what's stopping companies from just not having a physical presence in these countries but still serving them over the internet? Like what can India really do if there is no office in country. Sure they could block the service, but I mean beyond that, is there really anything they can do to compell you to comply with their overbearing demands if you are out of country?
For those judging Indian government through these comments should understand that majority of Indians are happy with the government and elections in India are as fair as in the USA :) . The ones who are unhappy with the government and feel disempowered are more motivated to post in a forum where someone would read their grievances.
The "majority" of Indians watch and read from a small set of media outlets, most of them biased pro-government news media which feed only news showing the Indian government and authorities in a positive light while completely leaving out their problems. Basically, news confirming their biases.
Critical journalism is pretty much marginal and niche - these outlets are fewer because there are very little incentives. There are a few like NDTV and Dainik bhaskar, who routinely face sanctions by governmental bodies for not sticking to the governmental narrative.
Unfortunately Indian society specially due to how educational systems are structured do not encourage any questioning of authority and unable to point out criticisms specially in public Easier to stay happier with blind acceptance of information when you barely know whats happening in detail beyond the governments successes.
Even the elections are not without fault, primarily in the working of the Election commission and how free and fair they are (specially in Kashmir) so I doubt your statement about fairness.
Critical journalism is pretty much marginal and niche - these outlets are fewer because there are very little incentives. There are a few like NDTV and Dainik bhaskar, who routinely face sanctions by governmental bodies for not sticking to the governmental narrative.
Unfortunately Indian society specially due to how educational systems are structured do not encourage any questioning of authority and unable to point out criticisms specially in public Easier to stay happier with blind acceptance of information when you barely know whats happening in detail beyond the governments successes.
Even the elections are not without fault, primarily in the working of the Election commission and how free and fair they are (specially in Kashmir) so I doubt your statement about fairness.
> There are a few like NDTV and Dainik bhaskar, who routinely face sanctions by governmental bodies for not sticking to the governmental narrative.
The founder of NDTV is a communist, his sister in law and her husband are members of the 'politburo' of one of the communist parties in India [1]. NDTV is effectively a mouthpiece of the left-wing Congress and Communist parties of India.
[1] https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/who-is-brinda-karat-al...
The founder of NDTV is a communist, his sister in law and her husband are members of the 'politburo' of one of the communist parties in India [1]. NDTV is effectively a mouthpiece of the left-wing Congress and Communist parties of India.
[1] https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/who-is-brinda-karat-al...
Think you're missing the point, its about a healthy environment where having multiple viewpoints (including criticism of the government regardless of ruling political coalition) are expressed through journalism and other media which is simply not present in india.
state and central governments have massive influence over what discourse is encouraged and it usually sways towards what their political agenda and inclinations are while opposing beliefs and ideas are sanctioned or put down though state apparatus (police forces , executive orders etc). free flow of information is suppressed when it doesnt favour certain viewpoints.
in a similar manner, blind deference towards the government is encouraged and criticism is punished, you can trace the track record of Indian government (sedition and anti national laws for examples) with this regard going back decades.
state and central governments have massive influence over what discourse is encouraged and it usually sways towards what their political agenda and inclinations are while opposing beliefs and ideas are sanctioned or put down though state apparatus (police forces , executive orders etc). free flow of information is suppressed when it doesnt favour certain viewpoints.
in a similar manner, blind deference towards the government is encouraged and criticism is punished, you can trace the track record of Indian government (sedition and anti national laws for examples) with this regard going back decades.
I agree with what you say about the importance of a free and independent media.
I am merely stating why some media outlets mentioned here might be motivated to question one type of government a lot more than another.
I am merely stating why some media outlets mentioned here might be motivated to question one type of government a lot more than another.
you say that in a manner suggesting that you think holding those political views is both inherently bad, and deserving of arbitrary punishment
There is one thing common among Indian left-wingers and right-wingers.
Both of them thinks the other wing is a frog-in-the-well.
And humans are wired to think they are better than most others: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20954785/
not really what i was trying to say, read the other reply in the thread. the political affiliations are not quite relevant (to some degree) as far as working and relationship between government and state apparatus and journalistic outlets are concerned.
A shame that corrupt and poor countries are not protecting their startups. Doesn't the police and government in India understand that such abuse will steer away even more investment?
They'll just blame the other countries. The government, the police, and most the population exhibit an exceptional ability to believe in their own lies.
[deleted]
I've flagged this because (1) the poster is anonymous and (2) they misrepresent the issue in the title and (3) they seem to have some kind of beef with Razorpay.
See: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=throw_away_1042
See: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=throw_away_1042
Anonymous because I worry about my and family's life. I have a real handle, if I use that, I'm almost certain that I will receive death threats and false police cases.
The issue is not misrepresented. There was no court order. The said police written request is not contested by Razorypay.
Looking at the past tweets from one of the co-founder it is not surprising to see the compliance with the request.
https://twitter.com/shashank_kr/status/1175974410202697728
https://imgur.com/a/ZDRZZ87
The issue is not misrepresented. There was no court order. The said police written request is not contested by Razorypay.
Looking at the past tweets from one of the co-founder it is not surprising to see the compliance with the request.
https://twitter.com/shashank_kr/status/1175974410202697728
https://imgur.com/a/ZDRZZ87
> Anonymous because I worry about my and family's life.
I would be far more ready to believe you if you had stuck to the facts.
I would be far more ready to believe you if you had stuck to the facts.
> because (1) the poster is anonymous
Please rethink this criterion. Those of us who live under authoritarian regimes have to be cautious to protect us from both our governments and members of our society who support them.
Please rethink this criterion. Those of us who live under authoritarian regimes have to be cautious to protect us from both our governments and members of our society who support them.
Not in the case of an obvious attack. Anonymous cowards I have a problem with, anonymous people who share important information because otherwise their lives are in danger is a different story but this is - contrary to the claims of the author - not one of those, it is simply a very thinly disguised hitpiece. And I'm saying that as someone who has been pretty critical of YC when it comes to certain ethics issues, which - for the most part - they have worked on to improve.
(Part 1)
I don't see it as a hitpiece. A hitpiece is when the main intention is to hurt a reputation. But any damage to reputation here is a secondary consequence of this company's actions that deviate from a moral and legal standard that a section of society wants companies to practise. It's no different from the posts that complain about Google bots blocking access to gmail accounts without redressal - we don't consider them hitpieces though they damage Google's reputation.
OP's intentions, IMO, are to bring to the IT community's attention, this situation where people may face penalties for doing a moral good (donating to a fact-checking service to fight disinformation) and for having their personal data handed to a malicious government without even token resistance.
Since social issues with data privacy and government intimidation aspects have been discussed here before, perhaps they thought this is a suitable forum. Everything OP said about the case and company's actions are factually correct for which they provided supporting links.
The only thing I disagree in the post is the inclusion of YC. I don't think YC could have done, can do, or even should do, ideological policing. "YC company" can be removed from the post because it's irrelevant. But without it, this post may never have been upvoted because western audiences don't know about Razorpay, a local Indian company.
On anonymity and cowardice, I feel you are belittling the entire philosophies of anonymity and whistleblowing that have legal backing even in western democracies.
Plus, there is no upside to revealing one's name when living in a malicious society where online mobs carry out intimidation campaigns, and law and courts don't are not seen as protectors. If OP reveals their name, it may persuade you but what benefit do they actually get?
Nonetheless, if you are strictly against cowardice in all forms, please remember that individuals are not the only cowards here:
1) Razorpay, a well-funded organization with lawyers, handed over data without even a murmur of protest or legal resistance. There are always legal loopholes to at least stall or make the cops work a bit harder. But they tried none of that.
2) The Indian government has overwhelming voter and ideological support, and practically limitless executive powers. Yet it funds disinformation and propaganda networks hiding behind a huge network of anonymous social media accounts, and cracks down hard on individuals who dissent or protest, a minority in our society.
I hope your disdain for cowards is not selective against the least powerful.
I don't see it as a hitpiece. A hitpiece is when the main intention is to hurt a reputation. But any damage to reputation here is a secondary consequence of this company's actions that deviate from a moral and legal standard that a section of society wants companies to practise. It's no different from the posts that complain about Google bots blocking access to gmail accounts without redressal - we don't consider them hitpieces though they damage Google's reputation.
OP's intentions, IMO, are to bring to the IT community's attention, this situation where people may face penalties for doing a moral good (donating to a fact-checking service to fight disinformation) and for having their personal data handed to a malicious government without even token resistance.
Since social issues with data privacy and government intimidation aspects have been discussed here before, perhaps they thought this is a suitable forum. Everything OP said about the case and company's actions are factually correct for which they provided supporting links.
The only thing I disagree in the post is the inclusion of YC. I don't think YC could have done, can do, or even should do, ideological policing. "YC company" can be removed from the post because it's irrelevant. But without it, this post may never have been upvoted because western audiences don't know about Razorpay, a local Indian company.
On anonymity and cowardice, I feel you are belittling the entire philosophies of anonymity and whistleblowing that have legal backing even in western democracies.
Plus, there is no upside to revealing one's name when living in a malicious society where online mobs carry out intimidation campaigns, and law and courts don't are not seen as protectors. If OP reveals their name, it may persuade you but what benefit do they actually get?
Nonetheless, if you are strictly against cowardice in all forms, please remember that individuals are not the only cowards here:
1) Razorpay, a well-funded organization with lawyers, handed over data without even a murmur of protest or legal resistance. There are always legal loopholes to at least stall or make the cops work a bit harder. But they tried none of that.
2) The Indian government has overwhelming voter and ideological support, and practically limitless executive powers. Yet it funds disinformation and propaganda networks hiding behind a huge network of anonymous social media accounts, and cracks down hard on individuals who dissent or protest, a minority in our society.
I hope your disdain for cowards is not selective against the least powerful.
> their lives are in danger is a different story but this is - contrary to the claims of the author - not one of those
Yes, it can seem unlikely to outsiders who haven't observed the behavior of Indian outrage mobs on Twitter, Whatsapp, etc. There's a frightening arbitrariness and unpredictable lack of logic in their behavior. One never knows what triggers them. But once triggered, they go all in with doxxing, death threats, rape threats, online bullying, threat calls, and similar. So the best option is to stay silent all the time. The second best is to murmur our troubles to sympathetic audiences from anonymous accounts. If we were to criticize Indian government and it makes it to the Twitter/Whatsapp mob ecosystem, here's a small sample of the outcomes:
1. Police arrested a muslim woman after a complaint by a hindutva activist for posting this WhatsApp status on Pakistan’s Republic Day: “May God bless every nation with peace, unity and harmony”. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/mudhol-woma...
2. Police lodged complaint Against Two Minor Muslim Boys for Listening to a Pakistani Song. The FIR against the teenagers was lodged on the complaint of a local hindu, who objected to their playing the song which praised the neighbouring country. https://scroll.in/latest/1021926/two-muslim-boys-detained-fo...
3. Gujarat legislator Arrested Over Tweets Criticising Modi. The arrest was over recent tweets after communal violence in Gujarat, in which Mevani had called Prime Minister Narendra Modi a supporter of Nathuram Godse, who assassinated M.K. Gandhi. https://thewire.in/politics/gujarat-mla-jignesh-mevani-arres...
4. Delhi university professor Held Over 'Objectionable' Post on Gyanvapi. https://www.thequint.com/news/india/du-professor-ratan-lal-a...
5. Complaint Against Alt News‘ co-founder Mohammed Zubair for Calling Militant Hindutva Leaders 'Hatemongers'. https://thewire.in/government/fir-against-mohammed-zubair-fo...
6. Physics Lecturer Held After Rightwing Activists Complain he Insulted 'Sanatan Dharma' https://thewire.in/rights/silchar-physics-santan-dharma-arre...
7. Police lodge complaint against Assam Professor Over Facebook Joke on Ram and Modi. He never mentioned Ram or Modi in his tweet, but still the complaint was accepted by police. https://thewire.in/rights/after-abvp-complaint-fir-against-a...
8. Woman gets rape threats for tweeting on Dipa Karmakar’s gymanstics in Rio olympics. https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/jaipur-woman-gets-...
In this discussion, redditors discuss how to intimidate ideological opponents ("antinationals") by complaining to government security ministry : https://www.reddit.com/r/indiadiscussion/comments/s2ppyh/a_c... -
I can provide many more examples of such incidents. There are a few every week.
I hope this gives some context to our fears. They may look irrational from the outside but are very rational to us.
Whether to sacrifice our peace of mind for the good of a society that doesn't like us is an ethical dilemma many of us have not fully resolved. Zubair resolved that dilemma by dropping anonymity and paid the price with imprisonment.
Yes, it can seem unlikely to outsiders who haven't observed the behavior of Indian outrage mobs on Twitter, Whatsapp, etc. There's a frightening arbitrariness and unpredictable lack of logic in their behavior. One never knows what triggers them. But once triggered, they go all in with doxxing, death threats, rape threats, online bullying, threat calls, and similar. So the best option is to stay silent all the time. The second best is to murmur our troubles to sympathetic audiences from anonymous accounts. If we were to criticize Indian government and it makes it to the Twitter/Whatsapp mob ecosystem, here's a small sample of the outcomes:
1. Police arrested a muslim woman after a complaint by a hindutva activist for posting this WhatsApp status on Pakistan’s Republic Day: “May God bless every nation with peace, unity and harmony”. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/karnataka/mudhol-woma...
2. Police lodged complaint Against Two Minor Muslim Boys for Listening to a Pakistani Song. The FIR against the teenagers was lodged on the complaint of a local hindu, who objected to their playing the song which praised the neighbouring country. https://scroll.in/latest/1021926/two-muslim-boys-detained-fo...
3. Gujarat legislator Arrested Over Tweets Criticising Modi. The arrest was over recent tweets after communal violence in Gujarat, in which Mevani had called Prime Minister Narendra Modi a supporter of Nathuram Godse, who assassinated M.K. Gandhi. https://thewire.in/politics/gujarat-mla-jignesh-mevani-arres...
4. Delhi university professor Held Over 'Objectionable' Post on Gyanvapi. https://www.thequint.com/news/india/du-professor-ratan-lal-a...
5. Complaint Against Alt News‘ co-founder Mohammed Zubair for Calling Militant Hindutva Leaders 'Hatemongers'. https://thewire.in/government/fir-against-mohammed-zubair-fo...
6. Physics Lecturer Held After Rightwing Activists Complain he Insulted 'Sanatan Dharma' https://thewire.in/rights/silchar-physics-santan-dharma-arre...
7. Police lodge complaint against Assam Professor Over Facebook Joke on Ram and Modi. He never mentioned Ram or Modi in his tweet, but still the complaint was accepted by police. https://thewire.in/rights/after-abvp-complaint-fir-against-a...
8. Woman gets rape threats for tweeting on Dipa Karmakar’s gymanstics in Rio olympics. https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/jaipur-woman-gets-...
In this discussion, redditors discuss how to intimidate ideological opponents ("antinationals") by complaining to government security ministry : https://www.reddit.com/r/indiadiscussion/comments/s2ppyh/a_c... -
I can provide many more examples of such incidents. There are a few every week.
I hope this gives some context to our fears. They may look irrational from the outside but are very rational to us.
Whether to sacrifice our peace of mind for the good of a society that doesn't like us is an ethical dilemma many of us have not fully resolved. Zubair resolved that dilemma by dropping anonymity and paid the price with imprisonment.
[deleted]
The 2018 post was a 1983 movie clip cleared by the Indian censor board.
How does sharing a mainstream Indian movie clip in 2018 be considered as offensive? The Indian government has stooped a lot.
The YC company razorpay founder from his previous tweets has serious inclination towards the ruling government, that's the reason he sold out private data without court order.
How does sharing a mainstream Indian movie clip in 2018 be considered as offensive? The Indian government has stooped a lot.
The YC company razorpay founder from his previous tweets has serious inclination towards the ruling government, that's the reason he sold out private data without court order.
It's concerning that YC is funding companies that are so aligned with BJP bigotry that they comply with invasion of privacy requests without a court order.
If you dont comply with the govt, the govt can shut down your business without a due process if you dont have the money to fight.
If they find any company in India they’re hitting a 50-50 that the company would do something like this. Only option then is not to invest in india?
I dont think it has anything to do with BJP.
Congress in the past too jailed people for criticizing sonia gandhi over social media.
It was facebook of the past.
Having said that, razor pay has very less options here. Anti-money laundering laws across the world record sender-reciever details out-of-the-box even though the transaction is as benign as buying a box of chocolates.
In this scenario, govt came back to collect information, which it asked razorpay to collect as part of book keeping.
It was facebook of the past.
Having said that, razor pay has very less options here. Anti-money laundering laws across the world record sender-reciever details out-of-the-box even though the transaction is as benign as buying a box of chocolates.
In this scenario, govt came back to collect information, which it asked razorpay to collect as part of book keeping.
I give zero sympathy or support to BJP and its destruction of India's democratic institutions.
Yet, I can't agree with your comment.
First, I don't think Razorpay supports BJP or its bigotry, at least openly.
One indicator of that is that they have retained critical media like AltNews and Wire as customers from years. I don't think they'd do that if they were pro-BJP or pro-bigotry.
Plus, I've noticed that rightwing companies and founders are generally very vocal about their support on social media (e.g.: PayTM, Zoho). They like boasting about their ideology. I don't see that with Razorpay or its founders. As far as I can see, Razorpay is "neutral".
Second, I don't see how YC can avoid funding such companies. You can't really expect them to include a rightwing checkbox that automatically excludes founders. YC itself seems to ignore ideology anyway. To repeat the previous point, there's nothing visibly political about Razorpay. It's not involved in any Indian government projects. It's not a Huawei or Palantir of India. I really don't see how YC can avoid funding such companies.
Third, the justice system that emerges from Indian laws, police training, and even its legal jurisprudence is anything but liberal. And that's ignoring the unethical malicious thinking that's prevalent in those people. We have sedition, UAPA, a quasi-blasphemy law, and a dozen other similar illiberal laws. Section 91 of the CrPC does seem to compel companies to hand over any information that's asked. I see this as an undesirable, but inevitable, outcome of our legal system. Whenever I donate, I do so knowing that I may come under government scrutiny some day.
Probably, Razorpay could have resisted the demand a little. But I doubt any neutral company does that. And even if they did, it wouldn't be for too long - some lower court would have forced them to disclose transactions.
A possible future outcome: The law and judiciary are increasingly turning into kangaroo courts. If Zubair or AltNews are declared terrorists under UAPA, all donors (who were just donating to upholding truth) can be labeled terror funders!
Yet, I can't agree with your comment.
First, I don't think Razorpay supports BJP or its bigotry, at least openly.
One indicator of that is that they have retained critical media like AltNews and Wire as customers from years. I don't think they'd do that if they were pro-BJP or pro-bigotry.
Plus, I've noticed that rightwing companies and founders are generally very vocal about their support on social media (e.g.: PayTM, Zoho). They like boasting about their ideology. I don't see that with Razorpay or its founders. As far as I can see, Razorpay is "neutral".
Second, I don't see how YC can avoid funding such companies. You can't really expect them to include a rightwing checkbox that automatically excludes founders. YC itself seems to ignore ideology anyway. To repeat the previous point, there's nothing visibly political about Razorpay. It's not involved in any Indian government projects. It's not a Huawei or Palantir of India. I really don't see how YC can avoid funding such companies.
Third, the justice system that emerges from Indian laws, police training, and even its legal jurisprudence is anything but liberal. And that's ignoring the unethical malicious thinking that's prevalent in those people. We have sedition, UAPA, a quasi-blasphemy law, and a dozen other similar illiberal laws. Section 91 of the CrPC does seem to compel companies to hand over any information that's asked. I see this as an undesirable, but inevitable, outcome of our legal system. Whenever I donate, I do so knowing that I may come under government scrutiny some day.
Probably, Razorpay could have resisted the demand a little. But I doubt any neutral company does that. And even if they did, it wouldn't be for too long - some lower court would have forced them to disclose transactions.
A possible future outcome: The law and judiciary are increasingly turning into kangaroo courts. If Zubair or AltNews are declared terrorists under UAPA, all donors (who were just donating to upholding truth) can be labeled terror funders!
neutrality in the face of bigotry seems like alignment, or at least it's a sign of a larger problem which you've very clearly laid out.
I think it's time to consider Boycotting, divestment and sanctions of India since it's flat-spinning into the clutches of full-on fascism.
Very sad.
I think it's time to consider Boycotting, divestment and sanctions of India since it's flat-spinning into the clutches of full-on fascism.
Very sad.
[deleted]
And India will reciprocate by boycotting all those countries which try to do this.
But you are starting a new type of apartheid.
But you are starting a new type of apartheid.
As is your right.
It will need to start from the individual level so I will be encouraging everyone around me to limit their exposure to Indian businesses.
It will need to start from the individual level so I will be encouraging everyone around me to limit their exposure to Indian businesses.
You can do whatever the F you want. I do not care. Neither do most people in this world.
[deleted]
On the same day Modi along with G7 countries were signing some declaration to protect democratic rights, his party in India was arresting Zubair for tweeting a scene from a 4-decade old movie. One commentator asked if G7 is trolling Indians.
Western democracies can certainly do a better job if they are principled but they aren't. They take only two extreme positions - either be chummy with dictators or sanction/bomb them to oblivion. Little acts of social control to keep all the dictos in check doesn't seem to be taught in western capitalism's textbooks.
Western democracies can certainly do a better job if they are principled but they aren't. They take only two extreme positions - either be chummy with dictators or sanction/bomb them to oblivion. Little acts of social control to keep all the dictos in check doesn't seem to be taught in western capitalism's textbooks.
Go through the timeline of founder of Razorpay, and you will know.
Certainly Razorpay didnt act in the best interest of the consumers. It didn't pursue the legal options it had. Leaving politics aside, this doesnt seem to be a good thing.
This is where Monero (a cryptocurrency with anonymity built in) could have been able to hide the donors identity from being shared with the government.
This is not the full set of events as it happened.
I mean when you push founders to "break the rules but not the law" eventually they are going to.
They're in India. The laws and customs are different there. Why is this surprising to you?
Razorpay received a section 91 request and they compliant as per law.
Most importantly, section 91 can be issued by police office such as DSP or SHO.
This post simple some sort of revenge against razorpay.
OP on purpose didn’t mention of section 91 and giving misleading information to YC.
OP also making this about politics. This is very old law and used in a lot cases in the past.
Most importantly, section 91 can be issued by police office such as DSP or SHO.
This post simple some sort of revenge against razorpay.
OP on purpose didn’t mention of section 91 and giving misleading information to YC.
OP also making this about politics. This is very old law and used in a lot cases in the past.
current year has brought a lot of public embarrassment for YC
Care to explain, how is this related to the topic in discussion?
>"Razorpay, a YC company shared [...]"
What else happened?
they keep funding fraudsters
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31431224
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30899352
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31431224
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30899352
Also this one from last year: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26898266
dont forget coinbase and how much Paul vouched for that awful grifter Brian Armstrong. some families out there are now fatherless because they lost money on the shitcoins promoted thru and offered on coinbase.
imagine enriching yourself by having poor ppl transfer over their life savings and causing suicides. this is what Paul & YC/crypto proponents are okay with since its not illegal.
imagine enriching yourself by having poor ppl transfer over their life savings and causing suicides. this is what Paul & YC/crypto proponents are okay with since its not illegal.
Did Paul ask them to handover the money too?
There is such a thing as using our brains and then living with the consequences of our decisions.
There is such a thing as using our brains and then living with the consequences of our decisions.
In UP, India, a Muslim restaurant owner was arrested because the non-veg food he wrapped with old newspapers had photos of Hindu gods and goddesses.
https://thewire.in/rights/up-man-arrested-for-wrapping-chick...
https://thewire.in/rights/up-man-arrested-for-wrapping-chick...
All: please do not step into religious flamewar hell. Not even baby steps please. This is the most avoidable kind of flamewar.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31999966 and marked it off topic.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31999966 and marked it off topic.
Not that I support the intention of cops to go at his restaurant in the first place, in the article I read, he swung his knife at the cop as well.
> Not that I support the intention of cops to go at his restaurant in the first place, in the article I read, he swung his knife at the cop as well.
No the article says - Police "alleged" that he swung his knife as well, which he and his family denies. I don't know what really happened but it would be silly to solely rely on cop's version of events.
No the article says - Police "alleged" that he swung his knife as well, which he and his family denies. I don't know what really happened but it would be silly to solely rely on cop's version of events.
You definitely do not want to believe the cop versions of the story. Cops in India have been planting fake evidence in the activists phones and they will go any length to prosecute those who fight the system
It's important to note that the cops partake such actions on the directions from higher-ups.
The Nuremberg defence?
Except I would rather have the cops punished along with their higher-ups. It's common in India to punish a low-level cop and call it a day. All this while the real masterminds go on to create even more problems for the society.
Or "the entire police force is corrupt, not just the beat cops".
harpic(1)
I can share ten stories where the offenders are Muslims and the victims are Hindus. Wire won't be covering those stories. This newspaper is as prejudiced against Hindus as it gets.
Please do not take HN threads further into religious flamewar hell. That is the last thing we need here.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
The Wire doesn’t need to cover them because mainstream media channels are already blasting them on primetime everyday.
Amazing that in a country where there’s a Hindu in practically every single position of authority, Hindus still harbor such a deep seated victimization complex.
Amazing that in a country where there’s a Hindu in practically every single position of authority, Hindus still harbor such a deep seated victimization complex.
That’s exactly what I dont understand. It’s so ingrained. In my apartment complex’s (Indian residing in India here) WhatsApp group, we’ll have people whose WhatsApp numbers are from the Middle East but they’ll be fulminating about Muslims like the rules of irony don’t apply to them.
I just don’t understand what people are so angry about.
Everything is going as well as it could in a billion strong parliamentary democracy but people are still mad about old wounds.
I just don’t understand what people are so angry about.
Everything is going as well as it could in a billion strong parliamentary democracy but people are still mad about old wounds.
Not that amazing. In the US, see Christians, white people, and men.
And like every where, if something threatens the perceived superiority of a well established, powerful group that group will do everything to fight. Regardless of religion.
Please do not take HN threads further into religious flamewar hell. Nor nationalistic flamewar hell, please. Those are the last things we need here.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
This is very sad to see, and makes me really worry about the people who got their names handed to the police.
The current jingoistic BJP regime is doing all sorts of authoratarian things in India, like demolishing housing for merely taking part in protests [0].
They have also used facial recognition techniques to identify mere protesters and punish them severely [1].
They put a doctor in jail for saving lives of kids by paying for oxygen out of his own pocket, because he publicized those already dead [2].
I am seriously worried about what will happen to the people whose names were in the donors' list.
Will they be arrested, be put on some sort of shitlist and their lives will be made full of problems because they dared to fund a company that merely fact-check the lies spread by the IT cell of the ruling party?
Note that, the tweet is a mere screenshot of a movie from 1983. The director or the producer of the movie aren’t touched. But sharing the screenshot unedited put him in jail [3]. It is also a major factor that he has an Arabic name.
[0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-india-61785275
[1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-citizenship-protest...
[2]: https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/explained-who-is-dr-ka...
[3]: https://m.thewire.in/article/communalism/kissi-se-na-kehna-m...
The current jingoistic BJP regime is doing all sorts of authoratarian things in India, like demolishing housing for merely taking part in protests [0].
They have also used facial recognition techniques to identify mere protesters and punish them severely [1].
They put a doctor in jail for saving lives of kids by paying for oxygen out of his own pocket, because he publicized those already dead [2].
I am seriously worried about what will happen to the people whose names were in the donors' list.
Will they be arrested, be put on some sort of shitlist and their lives will be made full of problems because they dared to fund a company that merely fact-check the lies spread by the IT cell of the ruling party?
Note that, the tweet is a mere screenshot of a movie from 1983. The director or the producer of the movie aren’t touched. But sharing the screenshot unedited put him in jail [3]. It is also a major factor that he has an Arabic name.
[0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-india-61785275
[1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-india-citizenship-protest...
[2]: https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/explained-who-is-dr-ka...
[3]: https://m.thewire.in/article/communalism/kissi-se-na-kehna-m...
Please do not take HN threads into political flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for.
We ban such accounts, and creating accounts to do it will eventually get your main account banned as well, so please don't.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
We ban such accounts, and creating accounts to do it will eventually get your main account banned as well, so please don't.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Referencing the BBC and the Wire here is the equivalent of quoting the WaPo when discussing Trump.
presumably you, throwaway_1928, have a personal problem with both, but are not willing to share it
You want him to refer India Today, Timesnow, republic, euro news, danik bhaskar and Dhinamalar?
Or **opIndia?
Or **opIndia?
[deleted]
[deleted]
methusala8(7)
Bla2e(3)
bipulranjan(3)
tl;dr don't save sensitive data all together. Encrypt if you must so that even you can't access it if you wanted to
Recently Indian police arrested[2] the co-founder of a fact-checking website for a tweet he did in 2018. There are reports that Government is trying to nab him for reporting the fake news and religious hatred the current regime has been peddling.
Police demanded the data of the donors to the fact-checking website from Razorpay and they complied without a court order[3].
1: https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/razorpay
2: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/28/delhi-police-a...
3: https://inc42.com/buzz/razorpay-alt-news-controversy-spotlig...