Ask HN: Depressed, need to leave web development, what can I do?
191 comments
Seems like you’re experiencing burn-out and from what I’ve read and experienced, burn out is a function of emotional investment vs the emotional return.
So I see that you have two options both of which shouldn’t happen before first taking a small break: 1. Continue to work in the industry and reduce your emotional investment. Hint: great places for that are big corporates. 2. Continue to work while upskilling in another field or your current field depending on what you prefer.
Depression often comes with the temptation to catastrophise the situation, avoid that urge. Seek out others who can be objective and talk you through it, be prepared to hear their answers.
I started out front-end, did a lot of my own side projects to get backend stuff. PHP is pretty good despite the hate because not many people want to do it these days but a legit and easy way to get some backend experience.
So I see that you have two options both of which shouldn’t happen before first taking a small break: 1. Continue to work in the industry and reduce your emotional investment. Hint: great places for that are big corporates. 2. Continue to work while upskilling in another field or your current field depending on what you prefer.
Depression often comes with the temptation to catastrophise the situation, avoid that urge. Seek out others who can be objective and talk you through it, be prepared to hear their answers.
I started out front-end, did a lot of my own side projects to get backend stuff. PHP is pretty good despite the hate because not many people want to do it these days but a legit and easy way to get some backend experience.
> PHP is pretty good despite the hate
I suspect the "hate" is rather localized.
I find the "Fishtank Graph"[0] to be a fairly good way to get my feet firmly planted back on the ground.
That said, I don't like PHP, and avoid it, if possible. I use it for my backend work, and it does a great job, there. I just prefer writing apps in Swift.
The "game-changer," for me, was retiring, and working on the stuff I want to work on, at my pace, and using my methodologies. No more insecure middle managers, pissing on my work, and no more insecure co-workers, fighting over every detail, and deliberately sabotaging team dynamics (to be fair, I spent a good part of my career, as a manager, which I hated, but it paid the bills).
I know that retiring is not an option for a lot of folks, and realize how fortunate I am (I didn't feel that way, at first, though. My retirement was not by choice).
But it's not work, if you love what you do.
These days (and for the last five years), I actually get more done, every day, by 10AM, than I used to get done, all day, in the office. My GH activity graph is solid green (no exaggeration), and it isn't "gamed," like so many of them. I do two things, every day:
1) I walk three miles, and
2) I write Swift code.
Life is good.
[0] https://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programmin...
I suspect the "hate" is rather localized.
I find the "Fishtank Graph"[0] to be a fairly good way to get my feet firmly planted back on the ground.
That said, I don't like PHP, and avoid it, if possible. I use it for my backend work, and it does a great job, there. I just prefer writing apps in Swift.
The "game-changer," for me, was retiring, and working on the stuff I want to work on, at my pace, and using my methodologies. No more insecure middle managers, pissing on my work, and no more insecure co-workers, fighting over every detail, and deliberately sabotaging team dynamics (to be fair, I spent a good part of my career, as a manager, which I hated, but it paid the bills).
I know that retiring is not an option for a lot of folks, and realize how fortunate I am (I didn't feel that way, at first, though. My retirement was not by choice).
But it's not work, if you love what you do.
These days (and for the last five years), I actually get more done, every day, by 10AM, than I used to get done, all day, in the office. My GH activity graph is solid green (no exaggeration), and it isn't "gamed," like so many of them. I do two things, every day:
1) I walk three miles, and
2) I write Swift code.
Life is good.
[0] https://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programmin...
> and working on the stuff I want to work on, at my pace, and using my methodologies.
I had one excerpt of that, did part time manual labour gig, coding during night and mornings on a side project. It was quite blissful. No negative emotion only pure intrinsic motivation. The manual labour gig acted as a good time constraint (30min to make a clean patch, 1h to think of how to add this feat) and gave a good balance of creativity and productivity. No bad colleague, no friction, no unwanted feature.
I had one excerpt of that, did part time manual labour gig, coding during night and mornings on a side project. It was quite blissful. No negative emotion only pure intrinsic motivation. The manual labour gig acted as a good time constraint (30min to make a clean patch, 1h to think of how to add this feat) and gave a good balance of creativity and productivity. No bad colleague, no friction, no unwanted feature.
Nice stats. Pretty surprising how Java's doing better than JS in overall market share, and growth.
Lots of infrastructure written in Java, and I suspect it still features heavily in school curriculum development.
I would be careful with corporates
Most people who had burn outs in my life had it while working for corporates, where actually there was hardly any pressure outwardly, but they all put it on themselves inwardly.
Outwardly there was hardly anything going on, but I think the internal politics & having a personality being sensitive to social pressure played a role. But not fully sure.
Sometimes I'm more tired when there is hardly anything to do, or when there is no real possibility to add any value because there is so many stiff ideas floating around. I prefer hard work but with real results then corporate cushions. Maybe that also plays a role for certain people.
The best places are in my experience team with a reasonable goal, people who care for the goal and each other and there is pressure but also understanding.
Most people who had burn outs in my life had it while working for corporates, where actually there was hardly any pressure outwardly, but they all put it on themselves inwardly.
Outwardly there was hardly anything going on, but I think the internal politics & having a personality being sensitive to social pressure played a role. But not fully sure.
Sometimes I'm more tired when there is hardly anything to do, or when there is no real possibility to add any value because there is so many stiff ideas floating around. I prefer hard work but with real results then corporate cushions. Maybe that also plays a role for certain people.
The best places are in my experience team with a reasonable goal, people who care for the goal and each other and there is pressure but also understanding.
This is all excellent advice.
I'd just like to emphasize your point about being prepared to hear their answers. But really hear it. Don't let the brain demons (depression warps perception) get to the words before you do!
Also, people often don't know how to have difficulty conversations, so this is another thing that can just make hearing the message harder. Eg, they often try to encourage as a way of showing compassion, instead of just showing compassion. They're stills being supportive, but it might not be the support you need. And just encouragement, without a good framework and a healthy mindset—which could have has been compromised by burnout—won't be enough.
I wholeheartedly also recommend going to therapy (and people often think this takes years, but it can just be a couple of sessions).
I'd just like to emphasize your point about being prepared to hear their answers. But really hear it. Don't let the brain demons (depression warps perception) get to the words before you do!
Also, people often don't know how to have difficulty conversations, so this is another thing that can just make hearing the message harder. Eg, they often try to encourage as a way of showing compassion, instead of just showing compassion. They're stills being supportive, but it might not be the support you need. And just encouragement, without a good framework and a healthy mindset—which could have has been compromised by burnout—won't be enough.
I wholeheartedly also recommend going to therapy (and people often think this takes years, but it can just be a couple of sessions).
I'm almost in my 40 and I can feel the OP's pain.
But I agree with @jaitaiwan, you look you're burnt-out rather than depressed. It's too easy for us to focus on our skill and less about our emotion & other things. Then over time, we see less light on our career because what we left is only the skill which probably already obsolete.
Skill is tradable but a person is not. You're who you're. If you like what you do, then it's fine. But if tech genuinely doesn't excite you, then looking for what you like now is not too late.
But I agree with @jaitaiwan, you look you're burnt-out rather than depressed. It's too easy for us to focus on our skill and less about our emotion & other things. Then over time, we see less light on our career because what we left is only the skill which probably already obsolete.
Skill is tradable but a person is not. You're who you're. If you like what you do, then it's fine. But if tech genuinely doesn't excite you, then looking for what you like now is not too late.
> function of emotional investment vs the emotional return
This!
This!
I was also struck by this definition, which I had not heard before.
Same, resonated very hard with me. Thanks for this, OP.
> 1. Continue to work in the industry and reduce your emotional investment.
thanks, this is what i've been doing. but it's really impacting my mental health.
thanks, this is what i've been doing. but it's really impacting my mental health.
I'm in the same boat, but even older than you with 25 years in. I just hate everything except the actual coding - I hate devops, always have. I hate having to learn new frameworks every six months and having the fundamental stuff I learned early on - objects are good, always separate presentation from logic - being totally flipped around.
I've managed to learn React and Next enough to build stuff in them, but I'm not especially passionate about React - it seems like it's ridiculously hard to do very basic stuff in it and the workarounds all seem like they were designed by the criminally insane.
I'm a good coder but not a great one, and I'd love to just find a gig that pays the bills without having to deal with all the masochistic "work is life, I piss in a bottle so I don't have to get up so I can maximize my productivity" bullshit. I just want to write code and make a decent living. I don't even wanna be rich. I just want to not have to stress as much about taking care of my wife and myself.
Maybe we should all start our own consultancy - we don't charge you rock star rates but we get the job done. :-D
I've managed to learn React and Next enough to build stuff in them, but I'm not especially passionate about React - it seems like it's ridiculously hard to do very basic stuff in it and the workarounds all seem like they were designed by the criminally insane.
I'm a good coder but not a great one, and I'd love to just find a gig that pays the bills without having to deal with all the masochistic "work is life, I piss in a bottle so I don't have to get up so I can maximize my productivity" bullshit. I just want to write code and make a decent living. I don't even wanna be rich. I just want to not have to stress as much about taking care of my wife and myself.
Maybe we should all start our own consultancy - we don't charge you rock star rates but we get the job done. :-D
Don't take it personally, but you seem to hate quite a lot of things that are outside of your control, or just objective truths that are there to stay:
* DevOps: If people find value in releasing software in an organized manner to avoid breaking websites / "testing in production" and losing a lot of revenue, why do you strongly hate or care at all? You don't have to work on devops.
* Learning new frameworks: Did someone force you to learn every new JS framework released in the past 10 years? React is the main framework people have been using since ~2015-2016, and other frameworks are either not super important (latest CSS framework someone came up with) or worth the cost of learning (Gatsby, Next). Continuous learning is an important skill in all jobs.
* "having the fundamental stuff I learned early on - objects are good, always separate presentation from logic - being totally flipped around": People realized that this is not the right approach for building web frontends. These best practices are not meant to be seen as dogma/ideology, they adapt to people's experience (and usually will only apply in some contexts)
So I think you can just relax, enjoy the parts you love, and be more open to things changing around you.
* DevOps: If people find value in releasing software in an organized manner to avoid breaking websites / "testing in production" and losing a lot of revenue, why do you strongly hate or care at all? You don't have to work on devops.
* Learning new frameworks: Did someone force you to learn every new JS framework released in the past 10 years? React is the main framework people have been using since ~2015-2016, and other frameworks are either not super important (latest CSS framework someone came up with) or worth the cost of learning (Gatsby, Next). Continuous learning is an important skill in all jobs.
* "having the fundamental stuff I learned early on - objects are good, always separate presentation from logic - being totally flipped around": People realized that this is not the right approach for building web frontends. These best practices are not meant to be seen as dogma/ideology, they adapt to people's experience (and usually will only apply in some contexts)
So I think you can just relax, enjoy the parts you love, and be more open to things changing around you.
> * DevOps: If people find value in releasing software in an organized manner to avoid breaking websites / "testing in production" and losing a lot of revenue, why do you strongly hate or care at all? You don't have to work on devops.
Nowadays, devops can be the process police, where they define rigid processes which make their life (releasing, version management, hotfixes etc.) easier at the cost of the developers. The processes are automatically enforced by the tools and workflows they write (which are often slow and/or flaky BTW, making things so much worse), so there's no way you could just ignore them.
Nowadays, devops can be the process police, where they define rigid processes which make their life (releasing, version management, hotfixes etc.) easier at the cost of the developers. The processes are automatically enforced by the tools and workflows they write (which are often slow and/or flaky BTW, making things so much worse), so there's no way you could just ignore them.
React is the same base frontend tech but the way you write React, with hooks and state management has changed quite a bit since its initial release.
That said I've never bothered to try to become an expert in any particular language or framework. I learn the general underlying concepts and end up googling for the syntax for the first few days when I start using a new library or framework.
That said I've never bothered to try to become an expert in any particular language or framework. I learn the general underlying concepts and end up googling for the syntax for the first few days when I start using a new library or framework.
in 2010, i would pull an html file from ftp or visual sourcesafe, make my edits and upload.
2022, i need to setup git, setup node, setup credentials, run a bunch of npm commands, which invariably fail and lead me down various rabbit holes, then install docker, then install a bunch of docker updates, then run a build command and hope that all the magic comes to together. just so i can edit a line of copy.
it's not fun anymore. the immediacy of web development has gone for me, i feel my time is spent grappling with obscure issues unrelated to the actual work and something stakeholders are totally oblivious and uncaring about.
2022, i need to setup git, setup node, setup credentials, run a bunch of npm commands, which invariably fail and lead me down various rabbit holes, then install docker, then install a bunch of docker updates, then run a build command and hope that all the magic comes to together. just so i can edit a line of copy.
it's not fun anymore. the immediacy of web development has gone for me, i feel my time is spent grappling with obscure issues unrelated to the actual work and something stakeholders are totally oblivious and uncaring about.
First, you need to take a big break, a couple of months at least. The less computing-related activities the better. The summer hasn't ended yet, do some outdoorsy stuff with other people. Depending on your situation of course, it may not be possible. Then just radically cut back on work and try to spend more time with your loved ones.
Second, you need to get your love for technology back. It is still there, but it manifests as hate. My theory of burnout is that it arises when the amount of effort you put in is disproportionally large compared to perceived payoffs. The brain just does a ROI calculation and refuses to put more effort in. To combat that, you need some easy successes. Try doing some small fun project and bring it to completion (for some definition of completion that makes you excited). This should bring back your confidence and excitement.
Third, you need to think strategically about your career. The truth is, for run-off-the-mill web development returns on experience taper off after a few years, so you are at disadvantage compared to younger folks that haven't lost their enthusiasm yet and are prepared to work long hours for less pay. So to make yourself desirable in the eyes of employers, you have to offer them something those people don't have. One option is to go into management (no need to scoff at it, it is hard, offers plenty of opportunity for growth and is exactly the area where older folks can shine). Another is to specialize and become an "expert in X" - maybe in some subject area or in distributed systems or machine learning. Think about what most suits you.
Good luck.
Second, you need to get your love for technology back. It is still there, but it manifests as hate. My theory of burnout is that it arises when the amount of effort you put in is disproportionally large compared to perceived payoffs. The brain just does a ROI calculation and refuses to put more effort in. To combat that, you need some easy successes. Try doing some small fun project and bring it to completion (for some definition of completion that makes you excited). This should bring back your confidence and excitement.
Third, you need to think strategically about your career. The truth is, for run-off-the-mill web development returns on experience taper off after a few years, so you are at disadvantage compared to younger folks that haven't lost their enthusiasm yet and are prepared to work long hours for less pay. So to make yourself desirable in the eyes of employers, you have to offer them something those people don't have. One option is to go into management (no need to scoff at it, it is hard, offers plenty of opportunity for growth and is exactly the area where older folks can shine). Another is to specialize and become an "expert in X" - maybe in some subject area or in distributed systems or machine learning. Think about what most suits you.
Good luck.
I'll agree with all this, particularly the first paragraph.
I've burned out a couple of times and the fix has been to stop for a while and do other things. After a few months I catch myself coming up with ideas for projects, writing code, etc - that's when it's time to go back to paid work. Obviously that's more disruptive to perm employees than to me as a contractor, but I hear rumours that such things as sabbaticals and sick leave exist.
Becoming an "expert in X" seems to be easier than it might initially appear, it's sometimes the path of least resistance to fall into a specific niche that may or may not exist a few years later - but while it does you are in demand. (I don't unreservedly recommend it!)
I've burned out a couple of times and the fix has been to stop for a while and do other things. After a few months I catch myself coming up with ideas for projects, writing code, etc - that's when it's time to go back to paid work. Obviously that's more disruptive to perm employees than to me as a contractor, but I hear rumours that such things as sabbaticals and sick leave exist.
Becoming an "expert in X" seems to be easier than it might initially appear, it's sometimes the path of least resistance to fall into a specific niche that may or may not exist a few years later - but while it does you are in demand. (I don't unreservedly recommend it!)
> Second, you need to get your love for technology back. It is still there, but it manifests as hate. My theory of burnout is that it arises when the amount of effort you put in is disproportionally large compared to perceived payoffs. The brain just does a ROI calculation and refuses to put more effort in. To combat that, you need some easy successes.
Just wanted to thank you for this summary. I think you're right, though it certainly doesn't feel like that. I am in a very similar situation as OP, but webdev is only a small part of what I (can) do. I literally hate all of technology right now. At least, it feels like that. Also seems to be age-related. I am 40 and I lost "my spark" about 3-4 years ago. Luckily, still able to work, but the fun is gone and I personally don't believe that I will ever get it back at this point.
Edit: May be relevant to OP: I found a small team with an employer who himself went through burnout and now approaches things a bit differently. Not sure if it helps, but I thought it might be nice to know that those exist.
Just wanted to thank you for this summary. I think you're right, though it certainly doesn't feel like that. I am in a very similar situation as OP, but webdev is only a small part of what I (can) do. I literally hate all of technology right now. At least, it feels like that. Also seems to be age-related. I am 40 and I lost "my spark" about 3-4 years ago. Luckily, still able to work, but the fun is gone and I personally don't believe that I will ever get it back at this point.
Edit: May be relevant to OP: I found a small team with an employer who himself went through burnout and now approaches things a bit differently. Not sure if it helps, but I thought it might be nice to know that those exist.
> One option is to go into management (no need to scoff at it, it is hard, offers plenty of opportunity for growth and is exactly the area where older folks can shine
Many many people say this but I think mid/low level managers are also usually young and I don't see the huge value of being old if the tech keeps changing. If anything it might be a bit easier to stay in shape technology wise if you're a developer, not a manager. This might be less of a problem if you go to high level management (director, CTO etc) but that career path is not trivial at all.
Many many people say this but I think mid/low level managers are also usually young and I don't see the huge value of being old if the tech keeps changing. If anything it might be a bit easier to stay in shape technology wise if you're a developer, not a manager. This might be less of a problem if you go to high level management (director, CTO etc) but that career path is not trivial at all.
thanks, good advice, appreciate it.
Web development as practiced by the majority of the industry is truly insane and depressing. No one has any idea what they are doing.
Here's what I'm aiming to do: learn systems programming on the side, accumulate enough savings to live off of for nearly a year, then go independent and continue learning systems programming "as I go". Build software products on my own and start selling them.
Here's what I'm aiming to do: learn systems programming on the side, accumulate enough savings to live off of for nearly a year, then go independent and continue learning systems programming "as I go". Build software products on my own and start selling them.
The problem is that "web-development" encompasses everything from a simple static website all the way to complex web applications.
And because of this generic term, I see people making stupid mistakes all the time.
React is great for web apps, but then you see the static pages being built by that, and you think WTF. Next thing some of these morons move back to server side rendering, discover how much better it is for SEO etc. But the problem is that the web-app folks read this, think they now all of a sudden have to move to SSR because big company X did this for their landing page.
It's truely stupid. So I think we should split the term "web development" into proper subsections, so it becomes clear what camp you are in.
If you're a website builder who does a bit of JS for some menu popups, good luck having a team of these guys writing the next google docs (no offense here, each their own specialization) But on the same ground, having a bunch of pro front-end coders build a simple website is also stupid, because they will choose technologies way too complex for that.
And because of this generic term, I see people making stupid mistakes all the time.
React is great for web apps, but then you see the static pages being built by that, and you think WTF. Next thing some of these morons move back to server side rendering, discover how much better it is for SEO etc. But the problem is that the web-app folks read this, think they now all of a sudden have to move to SSR because big company X did this for their landing page.
It's truely stupid. So I think we should split the term "web development" into proper subsections, so it becomes clear what camp you are in.
If you're a website builder who does a bit of JS for some menu popups, good luck having a team of these guys writing the next google docs (no offense here, each their own specialization) But on the same ground, having a bunch of pro front-end coders build a simple website is also stupid, because they will choose technologies way too complex for that.
Have you tried the website builder for Google Sheets: https://sitefast.live yet?
I have spent my whole career in webdev and I couldn't agree more. A common pattern is that there's a bullshit-free option to solve some problem, but someone wants you to solve it in a stupid and painful way. I sometimes wish I was experienced in some other field so I could move on. The money is good but that's about it.
Most of the money is in the bullshit stuff.
You will get paid more if you are a webpack ninja than if you know how to setup a simple esbuild script.
You will get paid more if you have wizard level knowledge of k8s and docker than if you can program something that solves your problems as a simple single program running on a single server.
You will get paid more if you are a webpack ninja than if you know how to setup a simple esbuild script.
You will get paid more if you have wizard level knowledge of k8s and docker than if you can program something that solves your problems as a simple single program running on a single server.
Why not leverage what you know and build web-based products/services?
For a lot of people with technology taste, the web is offensive. Not to say that interfacing with say ugly Windows APIs is that much better, but at least you have way more control over the machine and your program, so (in systems programming) interfacing with ugly abstraction is only a minor part of your experience.
The weird thing is the browser is amazing - it's a great 3D rendering, video and playing, video conferencing, UI displaying and animating, vector and raster graphics drawing etc. thing. And probably I barely scratched the surface with my list. It does all of these things either as good as the best native apps or at least quite competently.
And it's all portable. No wonder Electron has eaten the native app scene.
But the JS ecosystem with its myriad frameworks, packers, metalanguages, each halfway between immature and deprecated, and constant churn and breakage is an absolute nightmare.
And it's all portable. No wonder Electron has eaten the native app scene.
But the JS ecosystem with its myriad frameworks, packers, metalanguages, each halfway between immature and deprecated, and constant churn and breakage is an absolute nightmare.
Browser is not great for 3D rendering, unless you mean 3D rendering like it's still 2005 (performance-wise). The browser is not able to handle any modern AAA games for example.
Also, the browser does not have an out-of-the box set of standard UI widgets, which makes every browser-based (Electron) app redefine them in its unique way.
Also, the browser does not have an out-of-the box set of standard UI widgets, which makes every browser-based (Electron) app redefine them in its unique way.
The trouble isn't just that it's offensive for people with technology understanding and taste, but the clients in web space often consider the tech and your work as disposable and they treat you as such.
Interesting. My previous company (large bank) really cherished the front-end devs on our team, because they knew how hard and annoying it would be to hire replacements for them. They definitely were not treated as disposable.
It will be indeed web related, but not a hosted service with a monthly recurring subscription. Instead, a stand-along product that would allow you to "own" your web presense and not be tied to any specific company.
> Why not leverage what you know and build web-based products/services?
Because it's really difficult.
I find I can keep a big-picture, this is what the customer wants mindset, or I can have a detail-oriented this is the code that I want to improve mindset, but having both and/or switching between them is amazingly difficult. As I write the code I lose sight of what 'normal' people (non-programmers) want. I don't even know how to pitch to their level any more, or what isn't obvious to people who haven't spent 20+ years using and thinking about computers every day.
tl;dr: programming changes the way I think in a way that's unhelpful to build a product.
Next there's promotion and marketing... which is another skillset that depending how hard you want to push the product may/may not sit well with your ethics.
Thirdly and this is a personal one, I have an ADD brain and staying focused on one idea long enough to take it to market is very difficult. I have a list of ideas I dreamed up and started work on and never finished that someone else later launched successfully. As does everyone I suspect (execution >> ideas) but it's a neverending pattern (as I look at the 30+ OS projects on the go)
Because it's really difficult.
I find I can keep a big-picture, this is what the customer wants mindset, or I can have a detail-oriented this is the code that I want to improve mindset, but having both and/or switching between them is amazingly difficult. As I write the code I lose sight of what 'normal' people (non-programmers) want. I don't even know how to pitch to their level any more, or what isn't obvious to people who haven't spent 20+ years using and thinking about computers every day.
tl;dr: programming changes the way I think in a way that's unhelpful to build a product.
Next there's promotion and marketing... which is another skillset that depending how hard you want to push the product may/may not sit well with your ethics.
Thirdly and this is a personal one, I have an ADD brain and staying focused on one idea long enough to take it to market is very difficult. I have a list of ideas I dreamed up and started work on and never finished that someone else later launched successfully. As does everyone I suspect (execution >> ideas) but it's a neverending pattern (as I look at the 30+ OS projects on the go)
I've seen several people echo this, but for me it's the opposite. I start from the end goal and all the code is only there to serve the end goal. The end goal usually being the product and the value it's supposed to provide to its users.
What I have trouble with is marketing and sales. I've never sold anything directly to consumers, so that will be the most challenging thing when going independent: selling to people.
Let's say I sell the product for $50, I would have to sell to 2000 people in one year to make $100k, which means I have to sell to at least 6 people per day. Now it would be great if people just found the product and bought it on their own, but at least the first 1000 costumers must be acquired "manually" so to speak for the business to even take off.
What I have trouble with is marketing and sales. I've never sold anything directly to consumers, so that will be the most challenging thing when going independent: selling to people.
Let's say I sell the product for $50, I would have to sell to 2000 people in one year to make $100k, which means I have to sell to at least 6 people per day. Now it would be great if people just found the product and bought it on their own, but at least the first 1000 costumers must be acquired "manually" so to speak for the business to even take off.
Just on the vacancies and 300+ applicants:
Writing a good and "personalized" cover letter gets me a really decent interview rate I think.
I'd be up to read yours and make suggestions. Just let me know here.
My usual receipt:
- start with a custom paragraph. Why are you a match and why do you like this company.
- 1-2 copy+paste paragraphs about relevant skills (at most a buzzword or two added)
- ending with a curious question to discuss in the possible interview that shows you thinking along and grasped their situation (or at least made the effort). This might be more important for the product roles I aim at though :).
.
For preparation (I do this quickly for the letter, a bit more if I get an interview):
- save the job ad (it's useful for interview prep and might get taken down)
- read any blog that hints at upcoming projects you might be hired for
- try to find out their tech stack, highlight if you have relevant experience (https://www.wappalyzer.com/ makes it easy)
With all that: brace yourself for rejections. It's still a numbers game (and you'll get better with every interview you get). If you happen to find something you can actually get behind it also elevates your chances. People feel that.
Writing a good and "personalized" cover letter gets me a really decent interview rate I think.
I'd be up to read yours and make suggestions. Just let me know here.
My usual receipt:
- start with a custom paragraph. Why are you a match and why do you like this company.
- 1-2 copy+paste paragraphs about relevant skills (at most a buzzword or two added)
- ending with a curious question to discuss in the possible interview that shows you thinking along and grasped their situation (or at least made the effort). This might be more important for the product roles I aim at though :).
.
For preparation (I do this quickly for the letter, a bit more if I get an interview):
- save the job ad (it's useful for interview prep and might get taken down)
- read any blog that hints at upcoming projects you might be hired for
- try to find out their tech stack, highlight if you have relevant experience (https://www.wappalyzer.com/ makes it easy)
With all that: brace yourself for rejections. It's still a numbers game (and you'll get better with every interview you get). If you happen to find something you can actually get behind it also elevates your chances. People feel that.
This. Currently hiring and if I can tell they took the time to read the job post and ask an interested question I'll usually do an intro interview
appreciate this is good advice, although i think you're probably an outlier.
it's really demoralising to be totally ignored after carefully writing a cover letter.
it's really demoralising to be totally ignored after carefully writing a cover letter.
If it's really no reply you dodged a bullet with that company. And I too woke up to a "we have decided to continue the process with other candidates that better fit our current needs" in my inbox :). Happens.
I had some kind of a career crisis last summer, I just couldn't do anything at all for days, and felt very bad about it, since I have always liked my web-development work, tech, and computers in general.
It took me quite an effort (money, time, psychotherapists) to understand that I am not my job, and more importantly other people being not very happy with what I do is not a reason for me to feel bad about myself. It was very easy for me to start scolding myself after getting not-so-positive or not getting the feedback I expected at work.
Anyway, I think it's a process - my attitude towards my work is never final, I used to think that vespene gas here will get depleted over time, but it's probably not how it works. Some day it's worse, some day it's much better.
Good luck!
It took me quite an effort (money, time, psychotherapists) to understand that I am not my job, and more importantly other people being not very happy with what I do is not a reason for me to feel bad about myself. It was very easy for me to start scolding myself after getting not-so-positive or not getting the feedback I expected at work.
Anyway, I think it's a process - my attitude towards my work is never final, I used to think that vespene gas here will get depleted over time, but it's probably not how it works. Some day it's worse, some day it's much better.
Good luck!
Based on a comment here last year I picked up a copy of the Anarchist's Work Bench. It's about building a bench for a workshop. I never built that bench but in the fall of last year I started accumulating some tools - table saw, miter saw, router, etc. Working with wood has become a haven for me.
I'm hoping to turn this into a second income for "spending money" and then into a real business.
I haven't felt this good in years.
Quick bio: 20+ years as a bartender, around 10 years as a web developer, next career...?? Who knows? As long as life feels like it's worth living. Probably a low bar for many, but that's a decent start for me.
Good luck!!
I'm hoping to turn this into a second income for "spending money" and then into a real business.
I haven't felt this good in years.
Quick bio: 20+ years as a bartender, around 10 years as a web developer, next career...?? Who knows? As long as life feels like it's worth living. Probably a low bar for many, but that's a decent start for me.
Good luck!!
If you really want to change jobs, ignore the '300 applicants per vacancy' situation. I bet 80-90% of these are thrown out after a quick screen. If you can put together a good package, you have a chance. You would be surprised with how many bonus points candidates get in my company just for being 'normal'. Age definitely not a minus.
But first, take care of yourself! Best of luck
I'm a hiring manager (for design roles but still relevant I think). I get a significant number of people who are just outright unqualified, for example when looking for a Design Lead recently, I got applicants from people who were secretaries and had zero design experience. I easily say no to at least 50% at the CV screen stage and drop a good chunk more at the portfolio review.
Part 1
Find a therapist you like. Not because of any mental heath issues, but because I guarantee you that they will save you more money than they cost you by a long way. The right therapist will be able to ask you the right questions to help you figure out what to do next, and even make helpful suggestions.
This is absolutely not the same as talking to a friend or partner. It is their job to use their experience help and advise you. They are entirely in your corner with you, just like you would expect from any professional.
Part 2
Perhaps a different perspective – I've been freelancing/contracting since I was about 22, and I'm now 37. Full stack, but leaning heavily towards backend given the chance. My latest contracting role is actually as a network engineer (which I gained the knowledge for because I started an ISP during the pandemic).
I've not encountered any issue with nearing my 40s. I think the three key things are: be a good communicator, be comfortable talking about money, and doing your job well. All three are equally important, and you can probably get by with only two.
I've always worked in either small companies, or in very small (or solo) teams within a larger company. I know that I excel in that environment, so that is what I stick to.
But if you really do hate technology, then perhaps it is time to find something else. Again, the therapist will really help so much with this.
Happy to talk more about any of this.
Find a therapist you like. Not because of any mental heath issues, but because I guarantee you that they will save you more money than they cost you by a long way. The right therapist will be able to ask you the right questions to help you figure out what to do next, and even make helpful suggestions.
This is absolutely not the same as talking to a friend or partner. It is their job to use their experience help and advise you. They are entirely in your corner with you, just like you would expect from any professional.
Part 2
Perhaps a different perspective – I've been freelancing/contracting since I was about 22, and I'm now 37. Full stack, but leaning heavily towards backend given the chance. My latest contracting role is actually as a network engineer (which I gained the knowledge for because I started an ISP during the pandemic).
I've not encountered any issue with nearing my 40s. I think the three key things are: be a good communicator, be comfortable talking about money, and doing your job well. All three are equally important, and you can probably get by with only two.
I've always worked in either small companies, or in very small (or solo) teams within a larger company. I know that I excel in that environment, so that is what I stick to.
But if you really do hate technology, then perhaps it is time to find something else. Again, the therapist will really help so much with this.
Happy to talk more about any of this.
I've seen others discuss burn-out. It does sound a bit like you're in this boat. I have been a developer for a similar amount of time as you and I am around the same age as you. Yes there is an ever increasing number of applicants at roles, but reply anyway. The majority of these 300+ are discarded for various reasons.
During the pandemic I altered my career slightly, I went into Developer Relations. I still write code, but I also do so many other things. However, if you are suffering burn-out, moving into different roles/careers could further worsen the burn-out.
Personally, I'd take a step back and if you haven't already start introducing a very strict work-life balance. Work 9-5 and no other, take up a hobby that gets you doing something completely unrelated. If you're in a better state mentally, then you would be able to see your work life in a clearer healthier manner.
During the pandemic I altered my career slightly, I went into Developer Relations. I still write code, but I also do so many other things. However, if you are suffering burn-out, moving into different roles/careers could further worsen the burn-out.
Personally, I'd take a step back and if you haven't already start introducing a very strict work-life balance. Work 9-5 and no other, take up a hobby that gets you doing something completely unrelated. If you're in a better state mentally, then you would be able to see your work life in a clearer healthier manner.
I started moving away from code-only positions once I reached 10 years in the industry - 2015.
Now, I am 37 transitioned and while still write A LOT of code ( mostly back-end, high performance APIs, DB stuff ), review a lot of code, but bareley touch front-end work. I grok it, can make the changes, but I am too old for front-end work.
At my role ( 1 level away from C-Level executives) it's not expected to code at all - just power point, diagrams and general corporate lingo, but I can't let myself down that path.
So, my suggestion - start transioning ASAP from just coding - move to managing people who code, then to managing people who manage other people who manage the people that code.
More money, more recognition - less stress in general.
Now, I am 37 transitioned and while still write A LOT of code ( mostly back-end, high performance APIs, DB stuff ), review a lot of code, but bareley touch front-end work. I grok it, can make the changes, but I am too old for front-end work.
At my role ( 1 level away from C-Level executives) it's not expected to code at all - just power point, diagrams and general corporate lingo, but I can't let myself down that path.
So, my suggestion - start transioning ASAP from just coding - move to managing people who code, then to managing people who manage other people who manage the people that code.
More money, more recognition - less stress in general.
Another advice: you need to become a funnel for information and switch to delivery mindset.
Let's say there is a big project in your company called DigiRefresh - the projects aims to consolidate all data sources, standartize them and in the future extract correlated value via AI/ML - one of the most common projects in modern-day IT.
Now, someone at the TOP has secured N million dollars for this project, but he has also 5-6 other N million dollar projects. Such big projects are more or less the soldiers/power point slides of the C-level executive by which he justifies his existence to the board of the company.
All these projects on high-level sound like a must-do. Your job most probably will be to make the vision of the big guys into reality - deliver it. Which is a messsy process. Big guys don't care about the technology that much, they don't care how it will be done - they just want it done, because somebody commited to someone else for a date that makes somebody look good :)
So, your job 99% of the time is to deliver and deal with the small details like what techology will be used, how many people are needed for the tasks, orchestrate it and give yellow-green-red style reports to the top management.
The more you take away from their worry and the more time they have to play golf and the more seamless delivery you provide - the more you will raise in the corporate ladder.
Let's say there is a big project in your company called DigiRefresh - the projects aims to consolidate all data sources, standartize them and in the future extract correlated value via AI/ML - one of the most common projects in modern-day IT.
Now, someone at the TOP has secured N million dollars for this project, but he has also 5-6 other N million dollar projects. Such big projects are more or less the soldiers/power point slides of the C-level executive by which he justifies his existence to the board of the company.
All these projects on high-level sound like a must-do. Your job most probably will be to make the vision of the big guys into reality - deliver it. Which is a messsy process. Big guys don't care about the technology that much, they don't care how it will be done - they just want it done, because somebody commited to someone else for a date that makes somebody look good :)
So, your job 99% of the time is to deliver and deal with the small details like what techology will be used, how many people are needed for the tasks, orchestrate it and give yellow-green-red style reports to the top management.
The more you take away from their worry and the more time they have to play golf and the more seamless delivery you provide - the more you will raise in the corporate ladder.
>So, my suggestion - start transioning ASAP from just coding - move to managing people who code, then to managing people who manage other people who manage the people that code.
But how? In my woods, that's nearly impossible unless your boss has that planned for you and has the blessings of his bosses. They're the positions with the most gatekeeping therefore the nost difficult to get.
And less stress is not always guaranteed since you'll be taking shit from above and from below now.
But how? In my woods, that's nearly impossible unless your boss has that planned for you and has the blessings of his bosses. They're the positions with the most gatekeeping therefore the nost difficult to get.
And less stress is not always guaranteed since you'll be taking shit from above and from below now.
By taking more responsibilities and delivering beyound your pay scale.
Prove that you can be trusted with deadlines, build a reputation for relentless on time delivery and take responsibility.
You will be suprised - that if you start taking OWNERSHIP of what you do - how fast people will come to you and literally beg you to be in their projects.
Prove that you can be trusted with deadlines, build a reputation for relentless on time delivery and take responsibility.
You will be suprised - that if you start taking OWNERSHIP of what you do - how fast people will come to you and literally beg you to be in their projects.
>By taking more responsibilities and delivering beyound your pay scale.
Is that a healthy advice for someone struggling with Burnout/depression like OP?
And I beg to differ. Taking on lots of work is by no means a guarantee to management promotion everywhere. Often management positions go by means of connections, and are awarded subjectively to the favorable people management likes most, not to the most productive people. That's why so many managers are clueless and nearly incompetent. Because it's not always a meritocracy.
Is that a healthy advice for someone struggling with Burnout/depression like OP?
And I beg to differ. Taking on lots of work is by no means a guarantee to management promotion everywhere. Often management positions go by means of connections, and are awarded subjectively to the favorable people management likes most, not to the most productive people. That's why so many managers are clueless and nearly incompetent. Because it's not always a meritocracy.
> Is that a healthy advice for someone struggling with Burnout/depression like OP?
Yeah, depression/burnout is not real. It's just how a person decides to deal with high levels of stress. Stress will not go away. Better deal with it by pushing through it either by working more, going on vacations, sex trips, donations to charity causes, etc.
In the industry I am in - I didn't know anyone, before I started, hell, I even didn't know anyone in the city I moved to. It's all a struggle, endless struggle, like life is supposed to be.
Of course, you need to have conversational skills, soft skills, be able to hold a conversation in different topics, be funny, witty, smart and charming in order to be promoted.
You definetly can get promoted based on your own merrits WITHOUT relying on connections that you had before the job.
The trick is to build your conenctions on the basis of your work, soft skills and charisma WITHIN the company you want to grow.
I am sorry, but with most things in life - climbing the ladder is a competition - success is not guaruanteed, and being good at programming is not the only requirement.
Yeah, depression/burnout is not real. It's just how a person decides to deal with high levels of stress. Stress will not go away. Better deal with it by pushing through it either by working more, going on vacations, sex trips, donations to charity causes, etc.
In the industry I am in - I didn't know anyone, before I started, hell, I even didn't know anyone in the city I moved to. It's all a struggle, endless struggle, like life is supposed to be.
Of course, you need to have conversational skills, soft skills, be able to hold a conversation in different topics, be funny, witty, smart and charming in order to be promoted.
You definetly can get promoted based on your own merrits WITHOUT relying on connections that you had before the job.
The trick is to build your conenctions on the basis of your work, soft skills and charisma WITHIN the company you want to grow.
I am sorry, but with most things in life - climbing the ladder is a competition - success is not guaruanteed, and being good at programming is not the only requirement.
>Yeah, depression/burnout is not real
I should have stopped reading your comment here.
I should have stopped reading your comment here.
What colour is YOUR Bugatti ? :P
A Bugatti doesn’t make you happier! After a certain threshold you don’t need more money to be happy … just more time!
thanks, i was thinking of getting into dev or engineering management, but all the positions i see require 5+ years of being an engineering manager.
so i'm a bit of a loss how to make that transition.
so i'm a bit of a loss how to make that transition.
Don't give up, the market is in a downturn and its much harder to get a position now. It's not you that is the problem nor your age. I can see in my current company how much choosier we became when considering candidates.
As for web dev, it's a very broad field. You can try backend if you're sick of front end. I'm a full stacker and I'm considering a move to something more low level or algorithmic...we'll see how it goes. Your satisfaction in work also depends a lot on your boss, colleagues and the amount of stress you're experiencing...the actual tools and tasks you work on matter but not that much imo.
As for web dev, it's a very broad field. You can try backend if you're sick of front end. I'm a full stacker and I'm considering a move to something more low level or algorithmic...we'll see how it goes. Your satisfaction in work also depends a lot on your boss, colleagues and the amount of stress you're experiencing...the actual tools and tasks you work on matter but not that much imo.
Get a copy of The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron and see if anything resonates. Its primary purpose was as a workbook designed to help overcome creative block but the exercises and tools are applicable for everyone in a rut, not just creatives. The official amazon blurb:
"Since its first publication, The Artist's Way has inspired the genius of Elizabeth Gilbert, Tim Ferriss, Reese Witherspoon, Kerry Washington and millions of readers to embark on a creative journey and find a deeper connection to process and purpose. Julia Cameron guides audiences in uncovering problems and pressure points that may be restricting their creative flow and offers techniques to open up opportunities for growth and self-discovery.
A revolutionary programme for personal renewal, The Artist's Way will help get you back on track, rediscover your passions and take the steps you need to change your life."
The book helps you reconnect with parts of yourself you may have forgotten. These could end up being avenues you end up exploring as possible career paths.
"Since its first publication, The Artist's Way has inspired the genius of Elizabeth Gilbert, Tim Ferriss, Reese Witherspoon, Kerry Washington and millions of readers to embark on a creative journey and find a deeper connection to process and purpose. Julia Cameron guides audiences in uncovering problems and pressure points that may be restricting their creative flow and offers techniques to open up opportunities for growth and self-discovery.
A revolutionary programme for personal renewal, The Artist's Way will help get you back on track, rediscover your passions and take the steps you need to change your life."
The book helps you reconnect with parts of yourself you may have forgotten. These could end up being avenues you end up exploring as possible career paths.
I love programming languages and software design, but I was burnt out on doing this full-time (or even 4 days a week), after over 15 years of doing mostly legacy projects and web. It only scratched a certain itch. At some point I'd scratched too much and it became a sore spot and the only programming I did anymore was for work, no longer on the side. I left the commercial space to go into education and teach software development (and related) courses. This combines everything I feel like I should be doing: pass on knowledge, help people and contribute something meaningful to society as well as the curriculum. I also regained the energy and will to learn new things and become a better programmer. (A disclaimer: I was always attracted to this job and have been wanting it for over 10 years, I know it's not a general advice as much as an example of changing my role completely but still doing what I actually love doing, technology wise (and socially))
Burn out detected! Ask me how I know :) I went through the same thing and it took me 5+ years to recover. I'm 42, so we're likely in the same boat.
First, don't give up and pick up areas in the industry that require people to actually be innovative and not be cogs in the machine. To me those areas are machine learning and blockchain development. I've dabbled in both, and figured I like the latter better. It's got a ton of hype and bullshit (machine learning has that too), but you are nowhere being a fungible developer.
> Nearing my 40s, so my profile is less appealing to employers, this field is very oriented to young people.
That applies only to webpack/react/graphql bullshit jobs. You should have figured out by now not to do those.
Another important advice - get your physical body in order. That should be your number one priority. Give up addictions (alcohol, drugs), get in shape, get strong!
It's not easy, but it gets better. Remember, when you are going through hell, keep going!
First, don't give up and pick up areas in the industry that require people to actually be innovative and not be cogs in the machine. To me those areas are machine learning and blockchain development. I've dabbled in both, and figured I like the latter better. It's got a ton of hype and bullshit (machine learning has that too), but you are nowhere being a fungible developer.
> Nearing my 40s, so my profile is less appealing to employers, this field is very oriented to young people.
That applies only to webpack/react/graphql bullshit jobs. You should have figured out by now not to do those.
Another important advice - get your physical body in order. That should be your number one priority. Give up addictions (alcohol, drugs), get in shape, get strong!
It's not easy, but it gets better. Remember, when you are going through hell, keep going!
thank you, appreciate the advice.
You could try looking into small companies. They might be paying less, but there might be 0 interviews, low stress and fun. I don’t know which country you are from but here in Lithuania there are many options and we are country of less than 3 millions.
If they're suffering from some form of burn-out or are in a bad way mentally right now, going to a smaller company can make it a lot worse. Smaller companies tend to expect you to wear multiple hats, lots of context switching. It can worsen the situation for them.
Yeah I'm in a small company. I'm the entire IT department. It was a great way to get my mind back after burning out. I was counting physical stock at the end of each day for the first year. That downtime was a brilliant way to get some time to think. I felt productive every day, even if I was stuck on a technical problem.
Now I get to pick the technology I work with and drive a lot of change. I really feel like I'm making a difference and my efforts are worth it. Before I felt the harder I tried the worse I did. Everything was out of my control and replying to. Short email could take me a couple of hours. I couldn't think, in couldn't learn, I was broken.
Now I get to pick the technology I work with and drive a lot of change. I really feel like I'm making a difference and my efforts are worth it. Before I felt the harder I tried the worse I did. Everything was out of my control and replying to. Short email could take me a couple of hours. I couldn't think, in couldn't learn, I was broken.
Communication overhead kinda disappears when all the communication stays inside your own head :)
Yep. OP's post sounds like I could have written it, and it's because small companies are absolute hell. You won't get benefits, you won't get health insurance, you won't get vacation days, your pay goes down below livable levels, and your proximity to clients shrinks dramatically. Investors have all the power and small dev shop owners worship them to the detriment of their employees.
Switching to a small shop will make the burnout exponentially worse.
Switching to a small shop will make the burnout exponentially worse.
Ignore 300+ applicants. That always have been the case, but maybe exacerbated now when there is a lot of scam bootcamps promising one becomes a developer after a month. So you have a ton of people like this applying.
> expects you to be a superstar leetcoder, with the wherewithal to go through 6-8 interviews and IQ test.
Ignore these too. If a company is unreasonable, I see no reason why I should follow through with the interviews.
Also make sure you do work adequate to the pay. If company does not pay well, don't do overtime, don't do a great code, just something that works. Basically do bare minimum and no more.
Sadly engineers kind brought it upon themselves. I am at fault too. When I was young I would pull all-nighters at the office all the time to get features done and beating increasingly shortened deadlines. That eventually led me to depression and other issues. Also I didn't feel all that effort in my bank account.
> expects you to be a superstar leetcoder, with the wherewithal to go through 6-8 interviews and IQ test.
Ignore these too. If a company is unreasonable, I see no reason why I should follow through with the interviews.
Also make sure you do work adequate to the pay. If company does not pay well, don't do overtime, don't do a great code, just something that works. Basically do bare minimum and no more.
Sadly engineers kind brought it upon themselves. I am at fault too. When I was young I would pull all-nighters at the office all the time to get features done and beating increasingly shortened deadlines. That eventually led me to depression and other issues. Also I didn't feel all that effort in my bank account.
Move in to management. The reason tech sucks is mainly due to non technical managers who think writing code is the same as laying bricks, constantly breathing on developer necks and nagging about progress. The world needs more tech experienced managers to replace the supervisor types that barely understand the words they use.
I went from a technical role to presales/product marketing roles. I could've went into product management but I avoid "pinch point" roles (roles where you have to make multiple stakeholders happy, which means none of them will be.) I make a bit less than the ones who stayed as devs.
And yet my life is way easier. Most of my meetings are fun, involve expensed dinners, some light travel to interesting places (but not all the time.) I can work remotely and live wherever I want. My colleagues are not extremely overworked, most are laid back but effective.
Tech isn't what I grew up with and never will be again. The magic is gone. Most of the shit I would work on was boring and uninteresting. And frankly, I wasn't a 10x dev. I was never going to be that one who could dictate what I worked on. I wanted to have a life outside of code. It has been one of the best decisions I've made.
And yet my life is way easier. Most of my meetings are fun, involve expensed dinners, some light travel to interesting places (but not all the time.) I can work remotely and live wherever I want. My colleagues are not extremely overworked, most are laid back but effective.
Tech isn't what I grew up with and never will be again. The magic is gone. Most of the shit I would work on was boring and uninteresting. And frankly, I wasn't a 10x dev. I was never going to be that one who could dictate what I worked on. I wanted to have a life outside of code. It has been one of the best decisions I've made.
I have gone in that direction a couple weeks ago and so far I hate it. I have to constantly fight unrealistic expectations vs. what's actually possible. Both sides are angry (developers because of unclear requirements, management because of slow progress). I'm frustrated because I'm in the middle of this bullshit, I constantly have to pacify both sides.
Also, I've come to realise that while I enjoy developing products, I'm really sick of collaborating with other developers.
I fantasize about just going back to Delphi and solo developing something for the Winstore.
Upvoted because i had the same experience. Prior to going full time contracting i was a team lead, dev manager and finally head of. At first it was frustrating because i had to constantly walk a thin line in keeping people happy. Had devs snapping at me because of the pressure, business people going crazy at the slightest slippage, and so on. Then it clicked. Its all about people. They all want to shine and the question is how do you help them do so. Be it through process, motivational talk, etc. After a while i started loving it. I tried to make sure everyone understands i heard them and i somehow learned to enjoy genuinely helping devs in my team - even after they left. I also made sure that with the aid of metrics management understood that if you want more then you need more people. If they just failed to understand i left too as i didnt want to be a supervisor type cracking the whip. I build mafias not assembly lines. But give it some time as managing people (and equally important, managing your own time and knowing how to balance resources) is crucial to starting your own gig. And it can really be fun and rewarding.
Eventually i went into contracting, precisely so that i can “solo developing something”.
I would be happy making a nice little piece of app (currently working on a game), that i can prune here and there and grow a community of users that i can genuinely make happy, and get paid for it. I simply _love_ seeing happy users.
Eventually i went into contracting, precisely so that i can “solo developing something”.
I would be happy making a nice little piece of app (currently working on a game), that i can prune here and there and grow a community of users that i can genuinely make happy, and get paid for it. I simply _love_ seeing happy users.
Ha, much much easier said than done. Outside of big american corporates, getting a place in management is a no go 99.9% of the time.
i totally agree with you, there is an increase of dogmatic naivety and a loss of experience and pragmatism in this industry for real.
There are a lot of companies that don't primarily do web development, maybe look into that if you know or want to learn Java, C++? Telecom, automotive, finance, games, medicine, industry. These companies need a lot of developers and they're typically much nicer to work at. Better paid, much less stress.
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> Better paid, much less stress.
I wish, honestly. A lot of business/safety critical software is written by developers around the world that are paid less than the average web developer.
All the way up to extreme cases like https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-28/boeing-s-...
Admittedly, that's an extreme case, not the average, but you get my point.
Compared to most industrial automation, flashy and colorful stuff is overrated and overpaid.
I wish, honestly. A lot of business/safety critical software is written by developers around the world that are paid less than the average web developer.
All the way up to extreme cases like https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-28/boeing-s-...
Admittedly, that's an extreme case, not the average, but you get my point.
Compared to most industrial automation, flashy and colorful stuff is overrated and overpaid.
How's the C++ career path? I'm considering it. Always liked C and more low level stuff. I'm just wondering if C++ will be worth the investment 10 years from now or are languages like Go/Rust killing it.
I want something stable where my experience will compound nicely over the years.
I personally can't see a career in a particular programming language. There are so many programing languages out there. Wouldn't it be better to get expert like knowledge in some specific area. For example becoming an expert in distributed systems for the automotive industry. You would then participate in design and implementation of a distributed system. I think this would narrow down the needed knowledge, however life long learning is still needed.
There are so many languages but C is still out there and so many young people don't wanna touch it. As for the domain knowledge it transfers quite well I think. If u did some c++ for a database how bad does your knowledge decay if you go to the auto industry?
I don't wanna be argumentative very happy to be corrected here I really want feedback on this decision.
Maybe we misunderstood us here a bit :-)
I didn't mean that your C++ skills are decaying when you switch to automotive industry but before that you we're a C++ database developer.
My thought was that instead of learning a particular programming language, become an expert in e.g. database systems.
Maybe I can give you some personal information about stability of C++. Answer: in my opinion it depends on the industry.
We are writing software in C++ for machines which will be used for the next 20 years. In our case, knowing C++ very well is a plus because our systems have to live long. For example some time ago we needed a software developer who has knowledge in C and assembly for the C51 microcontroller architecture for some old human machine interface. Nevertheless we're evaluating Rust for new projects. As you can see in my industry C++ knowledge is very stable but be prepared to learn a new language like Rust.
This, try to learn languages from different areas. You don’t really have to become an expert in a domain either, knowing C++, Java and basic software engineering will get you into a lot of places.
I think C++ is the thing for me... we will see how it goes. Java is plan b.
Good luck! Try not to get stuck on extreme details; C++ is a very rich language but most people that work with it have pretty rudimentary knowledge, you’d be surprised.
Thank you! Can u explain further your point on learning a language from different angles? Or in general what is your strategy to remain relevant in tech?
I think you have to take a break. Step back for a bit. When you come back, find out what really interested you in tech in the first place and follow that.
The fact you think 300+ people are applying to the same jobs means the market might be saturated with those skills. Do you think you might have let your own skill set stagnate?
The fact you think 300+ people are applying to the same jobs means the market might be saturated with those skills. Do you think you might have let your own skill set stagnate?
> Do you think you might have let your own skill set stagnate?
yes, definitely.
although i worked a lot with node and react, building electron apps, cli tools, browsers extensions - but i just don't enjoy it anymore. and i don't have experience building large scale production apps with the latest trendy stacks.
> The fact you think 300+ people are applying to the same jobs means the market might be saturated with those skills.
Basically front-end jobs, senior front-end also. Most jobs I see on linkedin have applications in the mid triple figures, its not even worth applying.
The only time I interview is when a company contacts me directly. I usually give up after they send the coding challenge link. i just stare at the screen, no energy or enthusiasm to tackle the problem. i enjoy html, css and vanilla js - but its usually some typescript challenge or something like that - which i refused to learn, since i already know javascript. once static type checking became a requirement in front end is like the intersection for when i became a dinosaur.
Although I am working now as a contractor for FAANG.
yes, definitely.
although i worked a lot with node and react, building electron apps, cli tools, browsers extensions - but i just don't enjoy it anymore. and i don't have experience building large scale production apps with the latest trendy stacks.
> The fact you think 300+ people are applying to the same jobs means the market might be saturated with those skills.
Basically front-end jobs, senior front-end also. Most jobs I see on linkedin have applications in the mid triple figures, its not even worth applying.
The only time I interview is when a company contacts me directly. I usually give up after they send the coding challenge link. i just stare at the screen, no energy or enthusiasm to tackle the problem. i enjoy html, css and vanilla js - but its usually some typescript challenge or something like that - which i refused to learn, since i already know javascript. once static type checking became a requirement in front end is like the intersection for when i became a dinosaur.
Although I am working now as a contractor for FAANG.
Sounds to me like you are actually a competent developer with relevant knowledge and that the problem lies elsewhere.
As you've mentioned in the title, you're depressed.
Go and see a therapist and if you can, take a break from work.
As you've mentioned in the title, you're depressed.
Go and see a therapist and if you can, take a break from work.
FYI if you're a contractor for a FAANG you're a probably better than average dev.
Regarding typescript, I've been writing JS on and off since '99 and I picked up TS last year. It's actually good. Not everything new is shit, just most of it!
"Coding challenge as a first-stage filter" is something I'd like to see disappear, why would I want to work for a company that shows so little respect for people's time? I guess the answer is "$$££€€", which makes sense only when there's a ton of $£€ on offer.
Regarding typescript, I've been writing JS on and off since '99 and I picked up TS last year. It's actually good. Not everything new is shit, just most of it!
"Coding challenge as a first-stage filter" is something I'd like to see disappear, why would I want to work for a company that shows so little respect for people's time? I guess the answer is "$$££€€", which makes sense only when there's a ton of $£€ on offer.
> "Coding challenge as a first-stage filter" is something I'd like to see disappear
I generally skip those companies on principle. For better or worse...
https://www.nospec.com/
I generally skip those companies on principle. For better or worse...
https://www.nospec.com/
> which i refused to learn, since i already know javascript. once static type checking became a requirement in front end is like the intersection for when i became a dinosaur.
I doubt you are a dinosaur for not learning Typescript. You should be able to pickup Typescript if you are motivated, but that is hard to find when you are depressed. From your description it seems that you have all the background skills necessary, even though you have not had the energy to keep up with all the latest trends due to depression and other health issues.
As others said, you need to work on the root cause (maybe burnout or depression). You should contact a professional to help you manage this and get your energy back
I doubt you are a dinosaur for not learning Typescript. You should be able to pickup Typescript if you are motivated, but that is hard to find when you are depressed. From your description it seems that you have all the background skills necessary, even though you have not had the energy to keep up with all the latest trends due to depression and other health issues.
As others said, you need to work on the root cause (maybe burnout or depression). You should contact a professional to help you manage this and get your energy back
> its usually some typescript challenge or something like that - which i refused to learn, since i already know javascript. once static type checking became a requirement in front end is like the intersection for when i became a dinosaur.
Did you refuse to learn because it seems pointless, the interview excersize seems pointless or is it because it's overwhelming at this point in your career?
Did you refuse to learn because it seems pointless, the interview excersize seems pointless or is it because it's overwhelming at this point in your career?
> but its usually some typescript challenge or something like that - which i refused to learn, since i already know javascript. once static type checking became a requirement in front end is like the intersection for when i became a dinosaur
Why? Static type checking is a good thing to reduce errors.
Why? Static type checking is a good thing to reduce errors.
Also good to increase time to market and make you think more about types, less about business logic. It has both pros and cons depending on what you are doing.
I have learned and can read and write typescript, but it doesn’t click when it comes to “we’ll need it tomorrow to check our ideas fast”, the usual mode of startup operation. These stories about night and day difference also do not match my reality. All my code paths are either hot or tested. How many type-related bugs have I encountered last year? Maybe a few, but can’t remember even a single one. Maybe I’ll gradually type it after we go into maintenance mode, maybe leave it as an exercise to a maintainer if they see fit. My last few projects were successful and brought solid revenue without any type-related issues.
I have learned and can read and write typescript, but it doesn’t click when it comes to “we’ll need it tomorrow to check our ideas fast”, the usual mode of startup operation. These stories about night and day difference also do not match my reality. All my code paths are either hot or tested. How many type-related bugs have I encountered last year? Maybe a few, but can’t remember even a single one. Maybe I’ll gradually type it after we go into maintenance mode, maybe leave it as an exercise to a maintainer if they see fit. My last few projects were successful and brought solid revenue without any type-related issues.
> Also good to increase time to market and make you think more about types, less about business logic.
Show me some actual measurements that TypeScript increases time to market. I don't believe you have any.
Show me some actual measurements that TypeScript increases time to market. I don't believe you have any.
I've seen it add days of pull request code golfing whenever someone makes some new types, but those people would find other ways to waste time on pure JS projects.
TypeScript is a Microsoft band-aid on problems far better solved by other languages. The level to which people praise it feels like Stockholm Syndrome, and criticizing it frequently gets the stereotypical toxic programmer forum replies like "well you just don't know how to use types." It's impossible to speak critically about TypeScript unless you write long blog posts.
> It's impossible to speak critically about TypeScript unless you write long blog posts.
If it takes a long blog post to find something to criticize about TypeScript then I'd say that's a sign that TypeScript is doing something right.
If it takes a long blog post to find something to criticize about TypeScript then I'd say that's a sign that TypeScript is doing something right.
It totally is, but it does largely work as intended.
For people who've been dealing with JS for years it's a big improvement which I guess is why it gets so much praise. (The love for React, OTOH, must be Stockholm Syndrome!)
Other languages are better, but transpiling from them to JS has (arguably?) bigger downsides than using TS. WASM is the big hope for some people, of course, but it's only really good for heavy lifting at the moment.
For people who've been dealing with JS for years it's a big improvement which I guess is why it gets so much praise. (The love for React, OTOH, must be Stockholm Syndrome!)
Other languages are better, but transpiling from them to JS has (arguably?) bigger downsides than using TS. WASM is the big hope for some people, of course, but it's only really good for heavy lifting at the moment.
Static typing zealots have butchered perfectly good dynamic languages like Python and Ruby in recent years after M$ took over Javascript like Russians invading Ukraine. Even Ruby ffsake. Soon Clojure will be the only refuge for us devs who value dynamic languages.
I can't speak for the OP, but I've met people who "don't get it" for various reasons (me included at some point). I'm pretty sure the OP has heard this argument before.
Telling someone to use language A because it's much better than language B that the person is comfortable with is not a very good approach. You can get into the objective reasons as to why but for some it might be difficult to really understand.
I struggled with this when I was introduced to types as the entire concept was completely new to me. I had other ways I could think of to reduce errors (tests, more robust code, etc) and I wasn't sure how typescript could help me reduce errors any further or if it was worth learning a new (seemingly difficult) concept to deal with something I already felt I could deal with.
Telling someone to use language A because it's much better than language B that the person is comfortable with is not a very good approach. You can get into the objective reasons as to why but for some it might be difficult to really understand.
I struggled with this when I was introduced to types as the entire concept was completely new to me. I had other ways I could think of to reduce errors (tests, more robust code, etc) and I wasn't sure how typescript could help me reduce errors any further or if it was worth learning a new (seemingly difficult) concept to deal with something I already felt I could deal with.
> I had other ways I could think of to reduce errors (tests, more robust code, etc)
You can still do that with TypeScript and also get type checks, null checks, and just typos found for you by the compiler. Why wouldn't you want the compiler to do that for you? I don't want to do it, I want the tools to do it.
You can still do that with TypeScript and also get type checks, null checks, and just typos found for you by the compiler. Why wouldn't you want the compiler to do that for you? I don't want to do it, I want the tools to do it.
I don't understand how your skillset is lacking if you're an experienced React/Node developer. Here in the UK recruiters are falling over each other trying to hire.
Different markets, different supply and demand ratios.
What works in the UK might not work somewhere else and vice versa.
What works in the UK might not work somewhere else and vice versa.
I feel you... Web development is geared towards the "next hot thing" and can be very exhausting. Could it be an option to change your career path into a more management type role? Are you good with people? You might be a great mentor for junior devs?
i'd like to get into engineering management, but not sure how to transition, since these roles often require many years of experience as an engineering manager.
i tried to propose this where i am, but as a contractor, there's no need for it. i'm basically just here to follow orders.
i do like mentoring junior devs.
i tried to propose this where i am, but as a contractor, there's no need for it. i'm basically just here to follow orders.
i do like mentoring junior devs.
I don't quite get this. The highest number of JS jobs are in React and Express which are over 10 years old.
There may be 10 year old, but most people didn't work in React in 2012. 10 years ago, people were working in things like Ext.js or Backbone.js. Then, they had to learn Angular. And later, they had to learn React.
That doesn't subtract from my point, ie. that React and Node have been mainstream for many years and continue to dominate in the jobs market so how anyone with these skills can say they're not keeping up with front-end tech doesn't quite add up.
Especially front end. Backend is a bit more sane, I'm thinking of getting some Java/C++ job and becoming an expert. Hopefully having a decade+ in Java or C++ will keep me reasonably employed when I'm 50.
When I find myself depressed about work,there are three questions that help me a lot:
Do I like what I'm doing? (solving problems, making software)
Do I like who I'm working with?
Do I like the company I'm working for?
If you answer yes to the first question, an no to either of the next two questions, time to make a change. If you feel like your work isn't valued, go to work for a small company or a startup where everything you do, every line of code, every time you take out the trash is valued.
> Nearing my 40s, so my profile is less appealing to employers, this field is very oriented to young people.
Not really true. Entry level is oriented to young people. Often, front-end is seen as entry-level (it should not, but it is) because junior devs come knowing the latest-greatest (and not much else). Senior developers tend to get a little prickly about learning the latest javascript libraries and css techniques. At my company, I have a great mid-career front end dev who is making the jump to full stack, and is fantastic at it because he's highly aware of the impact of back-end design decisions on front-end performance and front-end developer experience. Our APIs get better every day because of him.
Do I like what I'm doing? (solving problems, making software)
Do I like who I'm working with?
Do I like the company I'm working for?
If you answer yes to the first question, an no to either of the next two questions, time to make a change. If you feel like your work isn't valued, go to work for a small company or a startup where everything you do, every line of code, every time you take out the trash is valued.
> Nearing my 40s, so my profile is less appealing to employers, this field is very oriented to young people.
Not really true. Entry level is oriented to young people. Often, front-end is seen as entry-level (it should not, but it is) because junior devs come knowing the latest-greatest (and not much else). Senior developers tend to get a little prickly about learning the latest javascript libraries and css techniques. At my company, I have a great mid-career front end dev who is making the jump to full stack, and is fantastic at it because he's highly aware of the impact of back-end design decisions on front-end performance and front-end developer experience. Our APIs get better every day because of him.
yes, no, no. that's an easy one :)
I don't know anything special. Maybe this will be totally nuts, but...
A couple of weeks back the very distinct name of a former co-worker popped into my head, and I did a search. Found some info.
When I knew him he was an intranet webmaster for a state agency. Remember "webmasters"? Anyway, in the years since, he went over to the Agile side. He's done a huge amount of contract project management work since, for several state agencies, and also for Amazon, Microsoft, and Google. And at least one gig in Australia.
Looks like a success. Completely different than what he was doing way back in the 2003-2005 period. Apparently he just decided to grab it and run with it, regardless of what you, I, or anyone else thinks about "Agile". It's a thing, and he's doing it successfully, and he seems to be in control of his life, so...
I'd say stay away from being a government employee, but as one option, governments always seem to have boatloads of money to hire consultants and contractors. Back about year 2002 I was making maybe $45k and the contractor in the next cubicle was making over $200k, didn't know any more than I did, just different things, and was treated like a god, while I was expected to eat shit and smile, all day, every day.
I quit my last job, as a state government web dev, when I decided that I'd rather die than keep working there. That was July 7, 2005. As things unfolded, I haven't worked since. This was a totally stupid thing to do, but somehow I survived. If I had it all to do over, I would be a whole bunch smarter, but here I am. I made it on savings to 2011, when I was eligible for Social Security at 62, and three years later at 65 I began drawing on my state pension. Now I'm living in Cuenca, Ecuador, where my monthly spending is under $800, around a third of my income. OK so far.
A couple of weeks back the very distinct name of a former co-worker popped into my head, and I did a search. Found some info.
When I knew him he was an intranet webmaster for a state agency. Remember "webmasters"? Anyway, in the years since, he went over to the Agile side. He's done a huge amount of contract project management work since, for several state agencies, and also for Amazon, Microsoft, and Google. And at least one gig in Australia.
Looks like a success. Completely different than what he was doing way back in the 2003-2005 period. Apparently he just decided to grab it and run with it, regardless of what you, I, or anyone else thinks about "Agile". It's a thing, and he's doing it successfully, and he seems to be in control of his life, so...
I'd say stay away from being a government employee, but as one option, governments always seem to have boatloads of money to hire consultants and contractors. Back about year 2002 I was making maybe $45k and the contractor in the next cubicle was making over $200k, didn't know any more than I did, just different things, and was treated like a god, while I was expected to eat shit and smile, all day, every day.
I quit my last job, as a state government web dev, when I decided that I'd rather die than keep working there. That was July 7, 2005. As things unfolded, I haven't worked since. This was a totally stupid thing to do, but somehow I survived. If I had it all to do over, I would be a whole bunch smarter, but here I am. I made it on savings to 2011, when I was eligible for Social Security at 62, and three years later at 65 I began drawing on my state pension. Now I'm living in Cuenca, Ecuador, where my monthly spending is under $800, around a third of my income. OK so far.
Sounds wrong, but I wonder if joining a very small firm would be better? Pay wouldn’t be as good but the team you’re apart of could be what you’re looking for and could allow you to branch out or even a project management role. Also nothing wrong with just doing a typical job to clear your mind to figure out what you want.
I feel the same way a little as a mobile developer. It seems companies are leaning into cross-platforms nowadays to save money and 95% of my career is working with native mobile. I'm approaching my 40s and I am just glad I have full autonomy on my decisions in the mobile dev department.
I felt the same way as you did in my Corporate SAP gig - writing the same type of report programs day in and day out - in hindsight it was soul sucking really.
SAP in the mean time did their third attempt at the cloud (BTP/Steampunk) and it seemed like the same old shit I was working on the classic ECC 6.0 buried in more layers of shit but now running in the "cloud".
Covid then came along and I got laid off which provided me with a financial cushion of a year to realize SAP is not what I wanted to do anymore , interviews to rebalance a binary tree - really ????.
Learned something new/went back to my old roots as a C developer.
Now doing Python with Pandas - less pay - less hours but far far happier.
SAP in the mean time did their third attempt at the cloud (BTP/Steampunk) and it seemed like the same old shit I was working on the classic ECC 6.0 buried in more layers of shit but now running in the "cloud".
Covid then came along and I got laid off which provided me with a financial cushion of a year to realize SAP is not what I wanted to do anymore , interviews to rebalance a binary tree - really ????.
Learned something new/went back to my old roots as a C developer.
Now doing Python with Pandas - less pay - less hours but far far happier.
This is scary. I'm thinking about joining a corporate just to reduce the insane pressure peaks I experience now in my startup. I really don't wanna find out being in a corporate will make my mental wellbeing even worse :(
We'll see...
We'll see...
It really all depends what the problem domain is - message routing to banks or tracking pallets in warehouses and reporting how many ended at the right place at the right time.
The world needs their burger flippers.
The world needs their burger flippers.
1. Try to take 6m to a year off
2. Think of way to leverage your skillset to your advantage in a non 9-5 capacity
3. If its still repulsive, go on indeed and just start browsing with very little criteria to see what interests you and just start applying, you would be surprised how advantageous being a tech worker can be in other seemingly non-related industries. I know a guy who use to be a nurse, he is now a charter boat captain. Another that was a F1 Race mechanic that now works in Solar... Having design say, ability to think critically, to plan out and wire frame something up, are all transferrable!
Good luck
Good luck
I really hate the advice "Take six months to a year off"
Not everyone is in such a financially advantageous situation that they are able to do so at a minimum we should preface such advice with "Ideally" or "If you are able to"
In fact, when I've faced burn out in the past, one of the major reasons for it was BECAUSE I wasn't in a situation to take such time off and my gosh do I wish it was advice I was able to action!
Not everyone is in such a financially advantageous situation that they are able to do so at a minimum we should preface such advice with "Ideally" or "If you are able to"
In fact, when I've faced burn out in the past, one of the major reasons for it was BECAUSE I wasn't in a situation to take such time off and my gosh do I wish it was advice I was able to action!
Taking 6 months to a year off from programming to give your brain a rest does not mean that you have to sit on the couch watching game shows or travel around trying to 'find yourself'.
Plenty of 'Help Wanted' signs are up looking for people with few skills or intelligent people who can learn a skill quickly. It might be much more labor intensive than your current job, but that might be exactly what you need as a change of pace.
Few, if any of those jobs pay as well as programming, but millions of people earn a living wage doing them every day. If you don't have some good savings, then you might have to give up some luxuries that you have gotten used to, but that isn't the end of the world either.
Plenty of 'Help Wanted' signs are up looking for people with few skills or intelligent people who can learn a skill quickly. It might be much more labor intensive than your current job, but that might be exactly what you need as a change of pace.
Few, if any of those jobs pay as well as programming, but millions of people earn a living wage doing them every day. If you don't have some good savings, then you might have to give up some luxuries that you have gotten used to, but that isn't the end of the world either.
And yet this is advice targeted towards developer with 15 years of experience.
If someone is in position of working in the field, having a lot of experience and still having issue with putting some cash aside to take few months off then it might hint that not the field but particular work place is root cause.
If someone is in position of working in the field, having a lot of experience and still having issue with putting some cash aside to take few months off then it might hint that not the field but particular work place is root cause.
It’s folly to infer someone’s financial situation and make assumptions about their capabilities based on it.
One medical issue or a family member with one could scupper a savings account, this is a precise reason why I hate this advice it’s tantamount to victim blaming.
One medical issue or a family member with one could scupper a savings account, this is a precise reason why I hate this advice it’s tantamount to victim blaming.
Just as losing money on bad investment or getting robbed or drained by ex-wife etc etc. But let’s call on Occams Razor and don’t focus some edge cases. Software development is well paying industry. We can’t bend over every single outlier situation which would be known to close friends only.
While maybe not obtainable for individual taking time off is still sound general piece of advice.
If you have bad tooth going to dentist is a a good advice. If you can’t afford dentist than it doesn’t make such advice bad.
For burnout recovery one has to get time off. There are some drugs that can help but they come with a lot of side effects and can actually worsen situation (depending on class of medication there is heightened risk of suicidal behavior or fired on the spot kind of).
While maybe not obtainable for individual taking time off is still sound general piece of advice.
If you have bad tooth going to dentist is a a good advice. If you can’t afford dentist than it doesn’t make such advice bad.
For burnout recovery one has to get time off. There are some drugs that can help but they come with a lot of side effects and can actually worsen situation (depending on class of medication there is heightened risk of suicidal behavior or fired on the spot kind of).
thanks you, sometimes i feel like getting laid off might be a good outcome for me, so i could do this. i haven't had more than 1 month off in 15 years.
Try application security. Knowing the backend of what you are testing and how to get around it is a big plus. Competent web application testers and those that can do code review are in demand. Take a look here https://portswigger.net/training and here https://tryhackme.com/
The only problem with security is that depending on position there might not be a direct way to move up.
thanks for sharing
The thing I see come up time and time again on these kinds of threads is some form of taking a break (either just from work, I saw a suggestion to someone younger to go back to college, or completely time off, as it is in this case, or somewhere in between) so I feel that must have some merit at least.
Other than that, I'm afraid I'm not of much help as I'm in a kind-of similar situation myself. Might be worth looking at what else is out there, not just related to dev but literally anything, even if it does mean less pay.
Other than that, I'm afraid I'm not of much help as I'm in a kind-of similar situation myself. Might be worth looking at what else is out there, not just related to dev but literally anything, even if it does mean less pay.
You could take your experience with web development and pivot into an adjacent role where the career prospects are better. If you like talking to people and would like to meet with others instead of writing code all day, you could look into sales engineering roles as they always are looking for skilled developers. Or if you’d prefer to build additional technical skills, you could move into application security as a lot of that already deals with web applications and browser controls.
There are 300+ applicants, but I imagine most of them aren't near 15 years of experience. I also have 15 years on experience and recently got a contract position immediately after just one interview and one take-home exercise. I was the only viable [1] candidate the company had, despite paying top market rates, so the decision to hire was a no-brainer for them.
[1] They use niche and difficult technology (Scala HP Haskel-style approach) and reject people who are not at least already ok at it.
[1] They use niche and difficult technology (Scala HP Haskel-style approach) and reject people who are not at least already ok at it.
honestly, i apply for many jobs but i don't get any positive responses. sometimes no response.
i have 15 years across 5 companies, two of them faang. albeit the latest one as a contractor.
this is why i felt its an ageism issue, or perhaps the market is so over-saturated that i'm just being filtered by some automated system. but i don't want to play the keyword game, i feel it's kind of undignified.
i have 15 years across 5 companies, two of them faang. albeit the latest one as a contractor.
this is why i felt its an ageism issue, or perhaps the market is so over-saturated that i'm just being filtered by some automated system. but i don't want to play the keyword game, i feel it's kind of undignified.
May I suggest to spend some time working as a trainer? I'm sure you have a ton of knowledge to share, and learning how to structure it for delivering a class is not difficult.
Training is (if your understand the content) not so stressful as working in consulting or developing, and you meet a lot of interesting people.
It comes with its own burden, of course, but it may work as a way to find time to better understand what you want to do in the future.
Also, the salary is pretty good.
Training is (if your understand the content) not so stressful as working in consulting or developing, and you meet a lot of interesting people.
It comes with its own burden, of course, but it may work as a way to find time to better understand what you want to do in the future.
Also, the salary is pretty good.
Out of personal curiosity.. where would you offer such trainings? As online courses? Or rather in person? How do you find customers/students?
Right now I'm an employee of a tech corporation, mostly delivering internal cloud courses and k8s training. It's more relaxed than working as freelancer, but I also spent some good years on my own :)
What if there’s no solution? What if you’re right and ageism is real and the industry is only going downhill from here? How does a Hacker accept that fact and change the situation?
I believe the successful hackers went on to start their own consultancy firms. Same job, totally different culture and treatment. Threshold is a major skill upgrade in self-marketing though.
I believe the successful hackers went on to start their own consultancy firms. Same job, totally different culture and treatment. Threshold is a major skill upgrade in self-marketing though.
You can ask for a mid level salary then. It will be silly to discriminate against you then, are you really worth less than someone with 2 years experience? I doubt it. In fact I see people get into full stack web dev and still struggling after 5 years...it's not such an easy thing to pick up.
what i saw most of them move into management. some do go out on their own, if you're able to establish some contacts and business.
some others i worked with will just change careers every 10 years, go and study and try something different.
some others i worked with will just change careers every 10 years, go and study and try something different.
I had this problem a couple years ago and decided to invest in learning Rust. So far, I think it's starting to payout. Most companies that use Rust take software development seriously. Another language that I could think of is Ocaml (or any other lisp language). Barriers are higher/harder, but it should pay off.
thanks
Get your depression treated, then you will be able to figure it out, how to progress.
It may make sense to take a break from work, but it could also be destabilizing, and create the fear of ending up broke. So try to find a way to reduce stress and things that cause you anxiety, whatever it may be. A therapist can help with that too.
It may make sense to take a break from work, but it could also be destabilizing, and create the fear of ending up broke. So try to find a way to reduce stress and things that cause you anxiety, whatever it may be. A therapist can help with that too.
Definitely agree with others that it sounds like burnout. I went through it myself about a year ago, and wrote about it recently [1]. Maybe it will help.
[1] https://stevenwaterman.uk/opening-up-burnout/
[1] https://stevenwaterman.uk/opening-up-burnout/
"Eventually, I just had to leave that job, with nothing lined up, and barely any notice. They knew it was coming, and we left on good terms, but it still felt like a failure. I'm in a very priveleged position to be able to do that."
You are, but you don't mention the nr.1 reason in your article: your youth. Unlike you the author is 40 in a commodity IT position where agism is far more than endemic.
I do agree with you on the main premise of the burnaout/depression cause though. I have written the same here in the past.
You are, but you don't mention the nr.1 reason in your article: your youth. Unlike you the author is 40 in a commodity IT position where agism is far more than endemic.
I do agree with you on the main premise of the burnaout/depression cause though. I have written the same here in the past.
Are 40 year olds really not able to pick up a job? I'm 38 ...I get turned down a lot but that always used to be the case and also the market is pretty shitty now.
Depends on the job.You wil notice it becomes (exponentially) harder and harder every year past 35-39'ísh unless you can stand out in some way beyond being a (wathever quality) commodity developer. Both employers and clients like ém young and mallable.
Typically you would aim for team leadership or architect roles before 40, unless you prefer the option of being an embedded IT technical role in a non-IT industry, usually specialized in 'legacy' technology.
Of course everyone's carreer is different and there are exceptions, but for the median person that is the trend.
Typically you would aim for team leadership or architect roles before 40, unless you prefer the option of being an embedded IT technical role in a non-IT industry, usually specialized in 'legacy' technology.
Of course everyone's carreer is different and there are exceptions, but for the median person that is the trend.
Sounds great!
thank you for sharing
Take a break if at all possible, if not then prioritise saving to be able to take some time off. A month+ would be ideal but anything over 2-3 weeks would be nessesary to disconnect enough to start seeing past the tress.
Look into therapy/counciling of some sort. No matter what what the actual problem is, having space to talk and vent about it is important. Judging by your post you've got a lot of thoughts and feelings locked up right now, having a professional to work through it with would be really helpful.
None of that is to say it's "your fault" or "your problem", but it might help you to figure out your next move. That may be getting out of the industry and into something else, or it might be finding a new job where the issues aren't as pronounced.
Look into therapy/counciling of some sort. No matter what what the actual problem is, having space to talk and vent about it is important. Judging by your post you've got a lot of thoughts and feelings locked up right now, having a professional to work through it with would be really helpful.
None of that is to say it's "your fault" or "your problem", but it might help you to figure out your next move. That may be getting out of the industry and into something else, or it might be finding a new job where the issues aren't as pronounced.
I was in a similar situation. What I did was to switch slightly into another lane. I went into Project Management, and now Product Management. I believe my development experiences helps me when managing other developers.
Hey, this is potentially a depression / burnout symptom. I am also not sure if you are currently employed or not.
If you can, take a break or a sabbatical. This however might not be an option for both. Whilst still employed see if you can have a few unofficial conversations with people in tech adjacent roles. Could Product be a potential pivot for you? What about becoming a certified scrum master? These might be completely wrong for you but you get the point. The easiest way to do a career pivot is within the company you already work for provided that this is the case.
Round age crisis multiplied by burnout, I feel ya. Not a us/eu citizen but same issues. My plan is to finish the current project, get a bonus and just chill for a year or so with therapy.
I have similar thoughts, but when I think about life and jobs and reality, logically my gut feelings do not make sense. Plenty of people around who seem okay but do not express any significant “depth”. It shouldn’t be that hard, so what is my true concern and what are the goals?
I have similar thoughts, but when I think about life and jobs and reality, logically my gut feelings do not make sense. Plenty of people around who seem okay but do not express any significant “depth”. It shouldn’t be that hard, so what is my true concern and what are the goals?
If you are interested in gradually making a big career change, you could look into biotech. I’ve seen people start out as regular developers in small / mid-size biotech companies and then transition into other, more domain-specific roles. The pay is generally not as good, but (in my personal experience) there are more opportunities to steer your career towards the work you enjoy doing.
Based on a true story:
Take a break, rest and review these problems with a clear mind. Consulting a professional helps for mind and career.
Good luck.
Take a break, rest and review these problems with a clear mind. Consulting a professional helps for mind and career.
Good luck.
Trust me, reading might help. Reading books will release you from those things, also you will learn or know new things which make you better.
Take a vacation. Last time I burnt out, I spent two years slacking, it helped me somewhat.
Maybe look into translating your skills into an application security discipline. There seems to be a shortage of people with talent and you'd be miles ahead of those who have just a cert or degree with no foundational experience.
What would you do if your only limit in life was your imagination?
"Do you see O my brothers and sisters? It is not chaos or death, it is form, union, plan, it is eternal life, it is happiness." - Walt Whitman
> All the vacancies in my field now seem to have 300+ applicants.
If you are on the applying side rather than on the job offering side, how can you know these numbers?
If you are on the applying side rather than on the job offering side, how can you know these numbers?
linkedin shows you how many applicants. one dev role at google had 1,820 last check.
average is between 150-300 - and the ads tend to be either outsourcing shops, or companies who just keep the same ad up for months and months - while totally ignoring me.
average is between 150-300 - and the ads tend to be either outsourcing shops, or companies who just keep the same ad up for months and months - while totally ignoring me.
I've heard people place fake job ads, and then see how many applicants they get?
Not even 40 but blames age for not getting jobs. Doesn’t want to do leetcode even though if you just did the damn work - you’d clear hundreds of thousands a year. Hates technology and comes on HN of all places.
If this is your perspective - switch industry and start taking orders at your local deli? You aren’t likely to have what it takes to stay in a rapidly changing industry that is trying to always evolve by its very definition.
If this is your perspective - switch industry and start taking orders at your local deli? You aren’t likely to have what it takes to stay in a rapidly changing industry that is trying to always evolve by its very definition.
This is the most condescending piece of advice on HN. Why do you bother commenting knowing that it really doesn't help anyone?
Become a DBA. I've worked with some ANCIENT database guys by the standard of every other position
yeah dba would suit my introverted personality. just a bit scared of messing up a production db or causing revenue related issues.
but i will look into it thanks, i like that sql is fairly evergreen and less trend driven.
but i will look into it thanks, i like that sql is fairly evergreen and less trend driven.
TLDR: take a break with no job if possible... a few months to a year ideally. Feel free to work on your own ideas or hobbies or something that gives you a feeling of reward or satisfaction.
> Anyone managed to move from front-end to another role
Changing roles isn't necessarily the answer. It could be, depending on how different the new role is; but for example going from frontend to backend dev is just a matter of fine details really (so it likely won't make you happier).
I hit the point you're at repeatedly over the last decade. And worse, I have fond memories of the glory days of the 90s when you could fax (haha) your resume to a recruiter, and within a week you had a job if you wished. Interviews were typically 1-2 hours in person, where you would talk to 1-3 people at the client site. Within a day or two, you had an initial offer or a rejection. I actually don't remember getting any rejections back then. Those glory days took a nosedive at the unfortunate intersection of the dotcom bust and the surge of offshore sourcing (and recruiting "firms" who replaced all their reasonably skilled recruiters with mindless drones who wouldn't even read your resume before calling you about a job).
But I digress...
At this moment I'm jobless and SO MUCH HAPPIER. I even have the enthusiasm and energy to start building some of my own projects. I don't have much savings, but I have enough to get me through a few months. Maybe one of the things I'm working on has the potential to generate some income, but that's not my focus. Almost my entire career has been focused on financial benefits (within reason... I still easily reject cube farm jobs in big banks), so now I'm trying an alternate approach. After all, if you're in poor mental and physical health while having a job and fat paycheck, it's not really living.
> Anyone managed to move from front-end to another role
Changing roles isn't necessarily the answer. It could be, depending on how different the new role is; but for example going from frontend to backend dev is just a matter of fine details really (so it likely won't make you happier).
I hit the point you're at repeatedly over the last decade. And worse, I have fond memories of the glory days of the 90s when you could fax (haha) your resume to a recruiter, and within a week you had a job if you wished. Interviews were typically 1-2 hours in person, where you would talk to 1-3 people at the client site. Within a day or two, you had an initial offer or a rejection. I actually don't remember getting any rejections back then. Those glory days took a nosedive at the unfortunate intersection of the dotcom bust and the surge of offshore sourcing (and recruiting "firms" who replaced all their reasonably skilled recruiters with mindless drones who wouldn't even read your resume before calling you about a job).
But I digress...
At this moment I'm jobless and SO MUCH HAPPIER. I even have the enthusiasm and energy to start building some of my own projects. I don't have much savings, but I have enough to get me through a few months. Maybe one of the things I'm working on has the potential to generate some income, but that's not my focus. Almost my entire career has been focused on financial benefits (within reason... I still easily reject cube farm jobs in big banks), so now I'm trying an alternate approach. After all, if you're in poor mental and physical health while having a job and fat paycheck, it's not really living.
> After all, if you're in poor mental and physical health while having a job and fat paycheck, it's not really living.
very true, this how i feel right now.
very true, this how i feel right now.
If you are depressed then see a psychiatrist.
I would seek help before making any career moves under this cloud.
I'm an average software engineer with nothing impressive on the resume. Persistence pays off.
I would seek help before making any career moves under this cloud.
I'm an average software engineer with nothing impressive on the resume. Persistence pays off.
> If you are depressed then see a psychiatrist.
I'm not sure I'd agree with this advice. If the mental problems OP has originate from his circumstances, a psychiatrist is unlikely to be able to help him. But psychiatrists are usually in no hurry to admit that, so the experience is usually even more frustrating and demeaning than skipping the whole shebang.
Yes I am speaking from experience.
I'm not sure I'd agree with this advice. If the mental problems OP has originate from his circumstances, a psychiatrist is unlikely to be able to help him. But psychiatrists are usually in no hurry to admit that, so the experience is usually even more frustrating and demeaning than skipping the whole shebang.
Yes I am speaking from experience.
Respectfully, breaking an arm while working in a steel foundry still requires a visit to the ER. It's not up to the ER to improve work safety.
The same goes for our minds.
The same goes for our minds.
If you are having mental issues how can you be certain that you are in the right state of mind to make such a determination?
I feel like the burden of proof of a treatments' efficacy lies on the professionals - just like in every other case in existence.
After all I could make up some arbitrary argument like: "How can you be sure wearing a traffic cone on your head doesn't help? Have you tried it?"
After all I could make up some arbitrary argument like: "How can you be sure wearing a traffic cone on your head doesn't help? Have you tried it?"
This is different and circular. If you suspect that your brain might be malfunctioning why would you rely on your brain to diagnose yourself?
>Nearing my 40s, so my profile is less appealing to employers, this field is very oriented to young people.
This has always been the case. In the 1980s, when I was in my 20s, this was the deal, and very well known to all of us in university. Nothing new. One was too old after 35-years-old, UNLESS you were some amazingly great programmer, of course. Obviously. I remember having many conversations about this topic. And this was the case way back then, when the whole industry was young.
That being said, there's always room for older programmers. Maybe it is not quite as easy, but there's a lot of room. Maybe you won't get the Google, Facebook type of jobs, but the government sewer district, or an auto parts store with 20 stores would hire you. So it might not be the glamor of a high-end company.
I'm a lot older than you but I can move from company to company pretty easily, because I guess I have more experience - not on the technical side, but on the political savvy side. Office politics. Knowing how to find the back doors.
However, this is not about that. You hate the tech field, so none of that matters.
I personally have gone from industry to industry, different types of jobs. I have a huge and massive source of skill sets.
I know that many say that being a "jack-of-all-trades, master of none" is bad but I've never felt that way. Sure, I won't make the huge bucks by being a neurosurgeon making $2 million per year, but then again, even if I did try to do that, I still would never be able to be a neurosurgeon (or leetcoder) anyways. So the point is moot. And I'm not really a jack-of-all-trades, more like a "near master of a shitload of trades." That's how I see it, anyways. And, I LIKE being a "jack/near-master-of-all-trades" so why does it matter if I am not a superstar master? I don't want to do that.
So what I am saying is that it is possible to move from one industry, from one trade, to another.
I've done programming, sales, insurance, ran a sports school, worked as a high-level bookkeeper/financial person, ran multiple companies of my own, worked in retail (I really like it and dealing with the public, unlike most people). I've also worked in a number of other specialized niche fields that I don't want to say as it might doxx me. Over the last year I learned a boatload about SEO/SEM/Social media/digital marketing. I did this for others, but now I'm going to start creating websites of my own and use that knowledge to create my own websites.
I do what I want to do. Sometimes it takes me 3 or 6 months to figure out my next move when it is time to move on.
I am just showing you that it is more than possible. I've done it tons of times. And what one man, or woman, can do, so can another.
But the question is, what do you want to do?
As far as your existing work history, of course you have to include it. But you always want to skew your resume to the job you are applying to, as much as possible.
So if you are going to do technical writing as your next thing, you then change your resume to say how you wrote reports, or manuals, or instructions and that was the favorite part of what you are doing as a front end web designer, and other things like that. If you decide to, oh, work in a hotel industry in the administrative department, maybe you created a website for a hotel and were intrigued by it and want to work in that industry now. Just make it link up, that's easy to do. It's totall random association.
.
If you can go to any kind of meetings in person, if you can find any, that is the best case. You never know who you will meet. I went to a computer security even earlier this year and met the CIO of a Fortune 100 company and spent 3 hours talking with him. He had 10,000 technical people working for him, and here I was talking to him. He offered me a job, but I didn't want one.
I've been to so many in-person meetings and if you put yourself out there and talk to people, you will find commonalities. So maybe you decide to work in commercial real estate and want to get into landscaping. So you just start attending commercial real estate assocation meetings and boom, you have a job without having to jump through hoops by applying through their website if you impress them. Maybe still apply through a website but it is a formality.
>Appreciate any guidance, thanks.
What do you want to do? Can't help you until you know that.
This has always been the case. In the 1980s, when I was in my 20s, this was the deal, and very well known to all of us in university. Nothing new. One was too old after 35-years-old, UNLESS you were some amazingly great programmer, of course. Obviously. I remember having many conversations about this topic. And this was the case way back then, when the whole industry was young.
That being said, there's always room for older programmers. Maybe it is not quite as easy, but there's a lot of room. Maybe you won't get the Google, Facebook type of jobs, but the government sewer district, or an auto parts store with 20 stores would hire you. So it might not be the glamor of a high-end company.
I'm a lot older than you but I can move from company to company pretty easily, because I guess I have more experience - not on the technical side, but on the political savvy side. Office politics. Knowing how to find the back doors.
However, this is not about that. You hate the tech field, so none of that matters.
I personally have gone from industry to industry, different types of jobs. I have a huge and massive source of skill sets.
I know that many say that being a "jack-of-all-trades, master of none" is bad but I've never felt that way. Sure, I won't make the huge bucks by being a neurosurgeon making $2 million per year, but then again, even if I did try to do that, I still would never be able to be a neurosurgeon (or leetcoder) anyways. So the point is moot. And I'm not really a jack-of-all-trades, more like a "near master of a shitload of trades." That's how I see it, anyways. And, I LIKE being a "jack/near-master-of-all-trades" so why does it matter if I am not a superstar master? I don't want to do that.
So what I am saying is that it is possible to move from one industry, from one trade, to another.
I've done programming, sales, insurance, ran a sports school, worked as a high-level bookkeeper/financial person, ran multiple companies of my own, worked in retail (I really like it and dealing with the public, unlike most people). I've also worked in a number of other specialized niche fields that I don't want to say as it might doxx me. Over the last year I learned a boatload about SEO/SEM/Social media/digital marketing. I did this for others, but now I'm going to start creating websites of my own and use that knowledge to create my own websites.
I do what I want to do. Sometimes it takes me 3 or 6 months to figure out my next move when it is time to move on.
I am just showing you that it is more than possible. I've done it tons of times. And what one man, or woman, can do, so can another.
But the question is, what do you want to do?
As far as your existing work history, of course you have to include it. But you always want to skew your resume to the job you are applying to, as much as possible.
So if you are going to do technical writing as your next thing, you then change your resume to say how you wrote reports, or manuals, or instructions and that was the favorite part of what you are doing as a front end web designer, and other things like that. If you decide to, oh, work in a hotel industry in the administrative department, maybe you created a website for a hotel and were intrigued by it and want to work in that industry now. Just make it link up, that's easy to do. It's totall random association.
.
If you can go to any kind of meetings in person, if you can find any, that is the best case. You never know who you will meet. I went to a computer security even earlier this year and met the CIO of a Fortune 100 company and spent 3 hours talking with him. He had 10,000 technical people working for him, and here I was talking to him. He offered me a job, but I didn't want one.
I've been to so many in-person meetings and if you put yourself out there and talk to people, you will find commonalities. So maybe you decide to work in commercial real estate and want to get into landscaping. So you just start attending commercial real estate assocation meetings and boom, you have a job without having to jump through hoops by applying through their website if you impress them. Maybe still apply through a website but it is a formality.
>Appreciate any guidance, thanks.
What do you want to do? Can't help you until you know that.
thanks for the great advice. the problem i've had is using my existing work experience to move into a new field, without some associated credentials.
but i think you're right, it's worth just trying to force your way into things, being more creative then just applying for the same jobs and getting ignored, the definition of madness...
but i think you're right, it's worth just trying to force your way into things, being more creative then just applying for the same jobs and getting ignored, the definition of madness...
Credentials? What credentials? Are the credentials licensing, like being a CPA or a general contractor where you have to have formal licensing as required by law? If that is the case, then it is a process to got through and it will take time.
However, if you are talking about experience being your credentials, you have to start at the ground floor like anyone else and work your way up.
Experience never stopped me ever. I just read like hell to get all the top quality knowledge that I can, and then move forward. Unless there is formal licensing restrictions, I doubt there's a single arena I can't get a job in.
As an example, I did insurance and has zero experience. I got a job with an agency doing non-licensing work, and after 3 months I talked to the person in charge, spent 4 months studying, and passed 2 licensing exams. I studied hard. There's a 60% fail rate, and you only need to get 60% correct answers, and I passed on my first try. There are others at my office that took 8 and 10 times to pass that licensing exam.
You are letting false walls block you. Don't worry about credentials. Figure out what you want to do, then make it happen.
But I have for sure built up a LOT of experience by doing different things, because I just went out and did them and didn't let anything stop me. I'm 60-years-old and have no problems learning and getting a job in anything. I have zero experience in, oh, supply chains. But if I set my mind to it, I'll get a job in supply chains in 3 to 6 months time. Name anything that doesn't require a license, like a dentist or whatever, and I'll get a job in it.
However, if you are talking about experience being your credentials, you have to start at the ground floor like anyone else and work your way up.
Experience never stopped me ever. I just read like hell to get all the top quality knowledge that I can, and then move forward. Unless there is formal licensing restrictions, I doubt there's a single arena I can't get a job in.
As an example, I did insurance and has zero experience. I got a job with an agency doing non-licensing work, and after 3 months I talked to the person in charge, spent 4 months studying, and passed 2 licensing exams. I studied hard. There's a 60% fail rate, and you only need to get 60% correct answers, and I passed on my first try. There are others at my office that took 8 and 10 times to pass that licensing exam.
You are letting false walls block you. Don't worry about credentials. Figure out what you want to do, then make it happen.
But I have for sure built up a LOT of experience by doing different things, because I just went out and did them and didn't let anything stop me. I'm 60-years-old and have no problems learning and getting a job in anything. I have zero experience in, oh, supply chains. But if I set my mind to it, I'll get a job in supply chains in 3 to 6 months time. Name anything that doesn't require a license, like a dentist or whatever, and I'll get a job in it.
reading from your history, you seem to have a pretty defeatist attitude. Maybe change that first.
yes, you're right, i have some health issues recently, which compounded things a bit.
Defeatist attitude is completely expected if you're burned out/depressed. My suggestion is to treat the latter (lots of good advice in the thread) to get rid of the former, not the other way around. The other way around simply doesn't work.
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~60% of the jobs are with outsourcing companies like toptal, gigster and so on.
My labour is a commodity but even lower paying jobs expects you to be a superstar leetcoder, with the wherewithal to go through 6-8 interviews and IQ test.
I don't see progress in my career, i hate technology, i hate what this industry has become - it's not something I want to do anymore.
Nearing my 40s, so my profile is less appealing to employers, this field is very oriented to young people.
Anyone managed to move from front-end to another role, while leveraging your existing work history?
Appreciate any guidance, thanks.