Denuvo Launches Nintendo Switch Emulator Protection(irdeto.com)
irdeto.com
Denuvo Launches Nintendo Switch Emulator Protection
https://irdeto.com/news/denuvo-by-irdeto-launches-the-industrys-first-nintendo-switch-emulator-protection/
142 comments
At some point Denuvo was basically a repack of VMProtect [0] (made by a small Russian software company) as the core of their protection "technology". This would've not been not a big deal if they weren't using a SINGLE retail license of that software, a license explicitly prohibiting this sort of white-labelling. And prior to that they were in negotiations with the VMPSoft to develop a custom solution for them. The negotiations didn't go anywhere due to the quoted project cost, so Denuvo bought a license and went ahead anyway [1].
Talk about irony. Ethics, piracy and all.
They got sued for that and eventually settled.
[0] https://vmpsoft.com/
[1] http://rsdn.org/forum/shareware/6733058 (in Russian)
Talk about irony. Ethics, piracy and all.
They got sued for that and eventually settled.
[0] https://vmpsoft.com/
[1] http://rsdn.org/forum/shareware/6733058 (in Russian)
Oh man, I hit this with the PACE/iLok DRM company in the early 2000s. I was working on a contract with a company that wanted to add support for it to their products. It wasn't working properly for me during development, so I ended up contacting PACE and the following things happened:
1) They sent me a bash script to run on my system (this was on macOS). The script basically went to the root of my hard drive and listed every single file on the system. I told them I could not send them the output because I had data from other companies in there that was under NDA. They were kind of shocked that I read the script and looked at the output.
2) They wanted me to use GPG to cryptographically sign something. When I pointed out that this was for commercial work and we hadn't paid the licensing for using it in a commercial product, they basically hemmed and hawed and said, "Oh that doesn't matter. There's nothing they can do about it."
So yeah, I don't really have a lot of respect for DRM companies, as they all seem to do the very things they're trying to stop others from doing.
1) They sent me a bash script to run on my system (this was on macOS). The script basically went to the root of my hard drive and listed every single file on the system. I told them I could not send them the output because I had data from other companies in there that was under NDA. They were kind of shocked that I read the script and looked at the output.
2) They wanted me to use GPG to cryptographically sign something. When I pointed out that this was for commercial work and we hadn't paid the licensing for using it in a commercial product, they basically hemmed and hawed and said, "Oh that doesn't matter. There's nothing they can do about it."
So yeah, I don't really have a lot of respect for DRM companies, as they all seem to do the very things they're trying to stop others from doing.
Any chance you could point me to (preferably English) sources for this? "Major DRM company caught pirating software" should make for hilarious evidence in piracy/DRM/copyright debates.
Here's an article on it.
https://torrentfreak.com/denuvo-accused-of-using-unlicensed-...
The official word from the company is that the post is wrong and that DENUVO had the right and always will have the right to use their software: https://vmpsoft.com/20170606/vmprotect-and-denuvo-gmbh/
The official word from the company is that the post is wrong and that DENUVO had the right and always will have the right to use their software: https://vmpsoft.com/20170606/vmprotect-and-denuvo-gmbh/
That's a post-settlement statement made 3 months after the original post, which wasn't retracted. Also the company and the original poster are one and the same. It sure looks like they "came to an understanding" that was then sealed with an NDA.
The post on RSDN is the source. Its author is the VMP developer.
Developers remove Denuvo after n months because they have to pay ongoing fees to make use of it, and the majority of their sales (when they're most worried about piracy) will be at release. It's just a cost savings measure.
> I am baffled they are still on the market.
Given the long mean time it takes to crack Denuvo games currently. I'm not surprised, it keeps games out of the pirate market long enough that by the time it's cracked the game is old enough that it's probably already at a reduced price.
Given the long mean time it takes to crack Denuvo games currently. I'm not surprised, it keeps games out of the pirate market long enough that by the time it's cracked the game is old enough that it's probably already at a reduced price.
Your totally valid point aside, GPUs have cratered. There’s actually a glut of them now. The 3090ti price was recently cut in half and the rumor mill is the 40 series was over provisioned based on crypto demand which has now also cratered, so there will be a lot of stock on the market. Now is a good time to look at upgrading if you haven’t in a bit.
X070 prices are still like double what they were 5 years ago. This isn’t a crater yet. I’m not surprised they’re having difficulty moving the extremely expensive cards to non-miners, but x090Ti cards were never really about practical gaming.
Cratered compared to the INSANELY high prices over the past couple of years, not compared to historical, pre-crypto, GPU prices. Things are improved, but still not back to nominal levels.
Everyone keeps saying that but at least where I'm at that's not the case by a longshot. It is better, yes, but still terrible.
This generation is completely dead to me, maybe next one.
This generation is completely dead to me, maybe next one.
I want to get a gaming desktop PC right now.
The extreme anti gaming-community behaviour of the last three years by Nvidia have convinced me to wait more. Prices are still insane.
I prefer to wait, may be for another year, and see these companies suffer a bit, and lower prices more.
I also hope Intel gets their drivers up to spec and becomes a third worthy contender.
Summer is almost over anyway, and university is a month away. I can wait until next summer.
The extreme anti gaming-community behaviour of the last three years by Nvidia have convinced me to wait more. Prices are still insane.
I prefer to wait, may be for another year, and see these companies suffer a bit, and lower prices more.
I also hope Intel gets their drivers up to spec and becomes a third worthy contender.
Summer is almost over anyway, and university is a month away. I can wait until next summer.
While that might be true prices are still above MSRP from 2 years ago while distributors have full warehouses and arent budging.
Anecdotally, the moment new Doom eternal brought it on, I demanded a refund with a clear indication why I submitted it. I am paying for this. And no, I do not care one bit that an executive can't buy a yacht this year if I have to suffer for their crappy decisions.
But that is the thing.. you have to be a conscious customer. You can't just say 'oh, i guess everyone is getting screwed; on average i am being screwed less; so i win..'.
The only appropriate response is, and I am not using profanity lightly:
'No. Because fuck you that is why.'
I accept I am a minority, but I also was raised in different era and have patience that comes with age.
But that is the thing.. you have to be a conscious customer. You can't just say 'oh, i guess everyone is getting screwed; on average i am being screwed less; so i win..'.
The only appropriate response is, and I am not using profanity lightly:
'No. Because fuck you that is why.'
I accept I am a minority, but I also was raised in different era and have patience that comes with age.
> I am baffled they are still on the market.
If we have learnt anything, its that Nintendo couldn't care less about customers experience and solely on their IP protection. So Denuvo will have a client for life now.
I don't even see Nintendo removing this protection in later updates after the big sales peak.
If we have learnt anything, its that Nintendo couldn't care less about customers experience and solely on their IP protection. So Denuvo will have a client for life now.
I don't even see Nintendo removing this protection in later updates after the big sales peak.
Nintendo hasn't committed to using it.
This is just an announcement that the DRM SDK exists for companies to add to their games, not that it would be included in any specific games, Nintendo 1st party or otherwise.
This is just an announcement that the DRM SDK exists for companies to add to their games, not that it would be included in any specific games, Nintendo 1st party or otherwise.
Okay thanks for clearing that up, I couldn't read the actual article as its timing out.
They remove it because most sales are done in the first month.
I audibly scoffed when I read “As with all other Denuvo solutions, the technology integrates seamlessly into the build toolchain with no impact on the gaming experience.”
It's an industry standard to use Denuvo to protect the first few weeks from launch, when majority of sales happen for a game. Once the dust has settled many companies quietly remove it from their games.
I think it was the Dying Light 2 devs who openly admitted this being a standard practice when the game launched.
I think it was the Dying Light 2 devs who openly admitted this being a standard practice when the game launched.
cripple performance is a strech, there was some cases in the past of that but it's not the vast majority of games.
The normalization of Denuvo, as well as "anti-cheat" protection that involves constant monitoring of your environment, is a fucking travesty for privacy and games. The worst part about Denuvo is that cracking it is game-specific, and there's ~1 person who is willing and able to do it (and currently isn't touching denuvo due to not being donated enough money)
It really makes me sad that people are even willing to create these systems. It would haunt me forever if I took part in writing something like this.
One sad lesson I learned early on in my software career is, for every ethical stand you are willing to take as a developer, there's always some other developer who is willing set aside ethics or has a different set of ethics. Software needs some kind of baseline ethical standard, like a Hippocratic Oath. A line that we "shall not cross."
I remember my first job out of college, I was asked to write code that caused our software to cheat at a certain industry benchmark. I was very junior, but still realized it was wrong. I finally worked up the courage to tell my boss that I had an ethical problem with doing this and wouldn't do it, and to my surprise, he said "Oh, that's fine! We treat software developers well here. I'll just give you a different bug ticket to work on!"
Jim, a few cubicles down from me had no problem writing the benchmark-cheating code. It's kind of futile.
I remember my first job out of college, I was asked to write code that caused our software to cheat at a certain industry benchmark. I was very junior, but still realized it was wrong. I finally worked up the courage to tell my boss that I had an ethical problem with doing this and wouldn't do it, and to my surprise, he said "Oh, that's fine! We treat software developers well here. I'll just give you a different bug ticket to work on!"
Jim, a few cubicles down from me had no problem writing the benchmark-cheating code. It's kind of futile.
>> https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics
It is worthwhile for us to read and reflect on the ACM Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct.*
* https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics
It is worthwhile for us to read and reflect on the ACM Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct.*
* https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics
That one requires a lot of free work. I believe that requiring others to work for free is morally wrong.
Well, someone develops software for nukes, citizen surveillance systems, fraud schemes and technologies for scamming people out of their retirement savings.
If you consider mechanical and chemical engineering there are also people who develop nerve gas agents (usually deployed against civilians), butterfly mines, cluster munitions and incendiary artillery rounds ready to burn your enemies cities to the ground.
Some anti cheating / piracy software that "arguably works" is pretty tame compared to that.
If you consider mechanical and chemical engineering there are also people who develop nerve gas agents (usually deployed against civilians), butterfly mines, cluster munitions and incendiary artillery rounds ready to burn your enemies cities to the ground.
Some anti cheating / piracy software that "arguably works" is pretty tame compared to that.
As an iRacing customer, I am glad the anti-cheat they use, exists.
Otherwise, I would be subjected to shitty racers who would ruin every race in the first lap, and cheaters who compete on hacks instead of talent.
I am also sure there are equivalent bad apples in every single gaming platform.
Otherwise, I would be subjected to shitty racers who would ruin every race in the first lap, and cheaters who compete on hacks instead of talent.
I am also sure there are equivalent bad apples in every single gaming platform.
Anti-cheat and DRM are not the same thing, and having community servers with admins greatly reduces the need for anti-cheat. So does not having rewards for winning other than winning.
Some crazy rose tinted glasses here. Back in the CS 1.6 and CS:S days community admins would only catch straight up rage hacks, most aimbots and triggerbots would fly under the radar unless caught by clientside anti-cheat.
But sure, we can pretend that cheaters don’t matter as long as it’s not blatantly obvious to all other players.
But sure, we can pretend that cheaters don’t matter as long as it’s not blatantly obvious to all other players.
>as well as "anti-cheat" protection
How do you solve cheating problem though? When I sit down playing a multiplayer game I don't want to see anyone cheating, botting etc. It's not fun.
Yes it's a cat and mouse game between the cheat makers and the devs and anti cheat solutions are not perfect but without some anti cheat system most online games would be totally unplayable.
How do you solve cheating problem though? When I sit down playing a multiplayer game I don't want to see anyone cheating, botting etc. It's not fun.
Yes it's a cat and mouse game between the cheat makers and the devs and anti cheat solutions are not perfect but without some anti cheat system most online games would be totally unplayable.
I agree with you, but the rise of anti-cheat protection is correlated with the decline of community management of multiplayer titles. Most games now rely entirely on matchmaking playlists managed by a "live service" team, whereas it used to be that communities would run their own servers with their own rules and have admins around to kick/ban troublesome players, including cheaters.
A good netcode that does not trust the client already gets you most of the way. Games developed for consoles first trust the client to a large extent, so the PC ports are easy to write cheats for.
Remove gold farming and competitive sweatlord ladders from your game. Majority of cheats exist to make money, remove their income and they will leave.
When I played Quake 3 and other games on its engine twenty years ago, they didn't have any of that stuff, but people still aimbotted and wallhacked.
Some people just like to cheat for the sake of it.
Some people just like to cheat for the sake of it.
iRacing installs an anti-cheating service which is not Denuvo.
It works fine as far as I know.
It works fine as far as I know.
Reminder that Denuvo is not an anti-cheat, it's DRM.
Reminder not needed.
Many of these solutions, both DRM and anti-cheat, work using the principle of checking if the user is using the original unmodified files, and checking if the user is not also modifying the memory of the running program with some tool.
Many of these solutions, both DRM and anti-cheat, work using the principle of checking if the user is using the original unmodified files, and checking if the user is not also modifying the memory of the running program with some tool.
DRM has the additional goal of restricting who can use even those unmodified, genuine files, whereas anticheat does not.
Stuff like Denuvo was normal back when games where sold on floppies… What is this “normalization” you’re talking about?
There was nothing close to Denuvo when games were sold on floppies. I'd happily go back to a time when we had to worry about code wheels or finding the first word on a certain page of the manual instead of having your entire system infected with malware giving access to your personal data/files and having your machine's performance crippled.
That’s not what Denuvo does.
The only meaningful difference between Denuvo and floppy-DRM is that Denuvo employs a bit more sophisticated obfuscation scheme.
The only meaningful difference between Denuvo and floppy-DRM is that Denuvo employs a bit more sophisticated obfuscation scheme.
> The only meaningful difference between Denuvo and floppy-DRM is that Denuvo employs a bit more sophisticated obfuscation scheme.
Funny, I don't remember any code wheel having kernel level access to my system... They also never caused performance issues https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/282924-denuvo-really-does...
Funny, I don't remember any code wheel having kernel level access to my system... They also never caused performance issues https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/282924-denuvo-really-does...
Ah, you’re talking about Denuvo anti-cheat which is a separate product from the same company. Not the “core” Denuvo product.
"Normalization" is a stretch, most games that have Denuvo are generally horrible by themselves which is why publishers who know it lock it out so that less people realize they have paid for garbage before buying it. The stalwarts of today's PC gaming industry like Valve, CDPR, Devolver, FromSoft etc. have yet to feel the need to rely on such cheap tricks.
Well Empress does seem to be a total lunatic, but they have been cracking denuvo games recently. eg. dying light 2 and deathloop
That "worst part" sounds like the best part from the perspective of someone who has put a lot of time, money, and effort into their game and would like to make some kind of profit.
It's the best part for execs who think piracy cuts into legitimate game sales (it doesn't). And for those who want every single copy to come with a giant amount of bloat and spyware so that a fraction of a % of people who weren't going to give them money anyways don't get to play.
> It's the best part for execs who think piracy cuts into legitimate game sales (it doesn't).
I’ve bought games because there were no cracks available, I don’t think I’ve ever bought a game after pirating it.
There’s no way I’m alone in this.
I’ve bought games because there were no cracks available, I don’t think I’ve ever bought a game after pirating it.
There’s no way I’m alone in this.
Meanwhile, back when I had time to game heavily I would, as a matter of course, pirate every single game on PC because the experience was pretty much always superior, but I would also pre-order/buy on release the same games. I didn't pirate because I didn't want to pay for it, I pirated because I didn't want to deal with a single-player games requiring an always-on Internet connection and running kernel modules in Windows to do piracy/cheat detection, degrading system/game performance, and violating my privacy and the security of my system.
I own literally thousands of games on Steam, and thousands more outside of Steam. I also relentlessly pirated every game I wanted to play for decades. The way to "fix" piracy is by companies providing a superior user experience, not by beating their paying customers with sticks.
I own literally thousands of games on Steam, and thousands more outside of Steam. I also relentlessly pirated every game I wanted to play for decades. The way to "fix" piracy is by companies providing a superior user experience, not by beating their paying customers with sticks.
Sure, but you can’t seriously argue that there is a significant audience of people who’d refrain from buying games if they couldn’t pirate them.
I think there's a significant audience that simply wouldn't play games at all if they couldn't pirate them, because they can't realistically afford to buy them. In that case, I don't think piracy costs sales, it just allows involvement in a cultural phenomenon and art that would otherwise be inaccessible. I leave it up to the reader to decide if that's a positive outcome or not.
I'm sure you're not alone, but AFAIK every time it's actually been studied piracy appears to actually improve overall sales. Given the number of those studies that were leaked because they were run by DRM-happy companies, I'm inclined to believe them. So: You might not be the only one, but statistically your conclusion, perhaps counter-intuitively, doesn't hold out.
What do you think is the gold standard study on this subject?
I’ve seen this claim repeated often, but never with good evidence.
I’ve seen this claim repeated often, but never with good evidence.
It also feel ripe for confounding factors. It seems likely that popular games will both sell well and be aggressively pirated. I'm not sure how obw could control this well enough to tease out cause and effect.
I half-agree with you.
The lack of availability of a pirate version of a game increases sales. This has been observed for many very popular games. Not so much for small and unknown ones.
At the same time, I have paid for games when they became available in Steam, years after I have played them, so I disagree on that point.
The lack of availability of a pirate version of a game increases sales. This has been observed for many very popular games. Not so much for small and unknown ones.
At the same time, I have paid for games when they became available in Steam, years after I have played them, so I disagree on that point.
Sure, but Denuvo is pretty much exclusively used by the very popular games.
> At the same time, I have paid for games when they became available in Steam, years after I have played them, so I disagree on that point.
Presumably for vastly less money than they were charging at launch?
> At the same time, I have paid for games when they became available in Steam, years after I have played them, so I disagree on that point.
Presumably for vastly less money than they were charging at launch?
Yeah, I would say I paid about half of their original price.
> I’ve bought games because there were no cracks available, I don’t think I’ve ever bought a game after pirating it.
Plenty of others have pirated games and then paid for them. I often pirate games after paying for them. Piracy enables people to try games in genres they aren't willing to take a chance on at full price, it serves as a form of advertising giving people a chance to get into a game or franchise they might never have come across otherwise, and plenty of people (myself included) have refused to buy or play games until a crack is available.
Plenty of others have pirated games and then paid for them. I often pirate games after paying for them. Piracy enables people to try games in genres they aren't willing to take a chance on at full price, it serves as a form of advertising giving people a chance to get into a game or franchise they might never have come across otherwise, and plenty of people (myself included) have refused to buy or play games until a crack is available.
>Plenty of others have pirated games and then paid for them.
I doubt a meaningful amount of people did this, but I’d love to see evidence to the contrary.
>and plenty of people (myself included) have refused to buy or play games until a crack is available.
Well, yeah, but it’s HN and we have all kinds of crazy people here who aren’t very representative of the overall market.
I doubt a meaningful amount of people did this, but I’d love to see evidence to the contrary.
>and plenty of people (myself included) have refused to buy or play games until a crack is available.
Well, yeah, but it’s HN and we have all kinds of crazy people here who aren’t very representative of the overall market.
> I doubt a meaningful amount of people did this, but I’d love to see evidence to the contrary.
Multiple studies have shown that pirates are often the best customers. (see https://torrentfreak.com/pirates-spend-much-more-money-on-mu...)
It makes sense. If somebody is supper passionate about games, or music, or movies they might pirate to get early releases, alternate versions, and to try new things. Collectors may even want to keep their purchased media untouched/unopened or may just want easy access to their purchases.
I've pirated things I've purchased just because it was faster than ripping a CD myself or even going into the next room to take a DVD off the shelf and using the player.
Multiple studies have shown that pirates are often the best customers. (see https://torrentfreak.com/pirates-spend-much-more-money-on-mu...)
It makes sense. If somebody is supper passionate about games, or music, or movies they might pirate to get early releases, alternate versions, and to try new things. Collectors may even want to keep their purchased media untouched/unopened or may just want easy access to their purchases.
I've pirated things I've purchased just because it was faster than ripping a CD myself or even going into the next room to take a DVD off the shelf and using the player.
> Multiple studies have shown that pirates are often the best customers. (see https://torrentfreak.com/pirates-spend-much-more-money-on-mu...)
But that’s a completely different claim, no?
Also, Torrentfreak is horrible quality agenda-pushing blogspam. I wouldn’t take their interpretation of a survey of unknown quality (which they didn’t even bother to link to) at face value.
And if we were to do that, perhaps the best explanation is that more technically oriented pirates were more likely to spend money on streaming services in 2016 than the average person. Perhaps piracy was just a proxy for tech savvy?
But that’s a completely different claim, no?
Also, Torrentfreak is horrible quality agenda-pushing blogspam. I wouldn’t take their interpretation of a survey of unknown quality (which they didn’t even bother to link to) at face value.
And if we were to do that, perhaps the best explanation is that more technically oriented pirates were more likely to spend money on streaming services in 2016 than the average person. Perhaps piracy was just a proxy for tech savvy?
Tell that to CD Projekt Red, Valve, Devolver Digital and scores of other good game developers and publishers (both big and small) who have had no problems at all selling their games with minimal to no DRM.
DRM today is largely used by bad publishers to prevent buyers from realizing how trash their games are before paying for them.
DRM today is largely used by bad publishers to prevent buyers from realizing how trash their games are before paying for them.
Kiss your battery life goodbye since it will be siphoning more CPU cycles.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
https://youtu.be/1VpWKwIjwLk?t=394
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
https://youtu.be/1VpWKwIjwLk?t=394
On a system that already struggles to keep up on a lot of games, because it ships with a chip from 2014. Will be fun to see the comparisons.
That's not a rigorous test; it actually seems very sketchy. In the last game, the performance is better before the Denuvo removal, which doesn't make much sense. In another game, they're testing the manual run of a game, as the game (it seems ) doesn't provide an automated benchmark.
On the subject of piracy / DRM, I always think back to Lar's Doucet's piece Piracy and the Four Currencies: https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/piracy-and-the-four-c...
Lars argues that when people make the decision to buy or pirate something, they're spending four 'currencies' which each person values differently:
* Money-dollars
* Time-dollars
* Pain-in-the-butt-dollars
* Integrity-dollars
As a teenager, I had near-infinite time dollars, and very few money dollars. That reversed when I got a real job. Implementing Denuvo (or other DRM malware) increases a product's cost in Pain-in-the-butt dollars significantly because the pirated version without it is better.
I own a Switch, have purchased several games for it, and most of my playtime is on my PC in an emulator now. I can use a better controller, run games at higher framerates and resolution, and use mods. The Switch is still nice on the go, but anything beyond casual games using an anti-emulation solution become less appealing to me.
Lars argues that when people make the decision to buy or pirate something, they're spending four 'currencies' which each person values differently:
* Money-dollars
* Time-dollars
* Pain-in-the-butt-dollars
* Integrity-dollars
As a teenager, I had near-infinite time dollars, and very few money dollars. That reversed when I got a real job. Implementing Denuvo (or other DRM malware) increases a product's cost in Pain-in-the-butt dollars significantly because the pirated version without it is better.
I own a Switch, have purchased several games for it, and most of my playtime is on my PC in an emulator now. I can use a better controller, run games at higher framerates and resolution, and use mods. The Switch is still nice on the go, but anything beyond casual games using an anti-emulation solution become less appealing to me.
I'd call "elitism-dollars" or "user-preference dollars" a fifth currency. I don't emulate because I don't want to pay for games I could get on ebay for five dollars; I emulate because I don't want Ocarina of Time 3D stuck behind a 400x240 screen door or Breath of the Wild locked at 30fps.
I think the market that plays games on emulators is pretty different than the market that plays on console. I don't know if this will really bring the effect that the game devs want. It will only hurt the preservation and cultural impact of these games down the road when one isn't able to buy the games new but they can't be emulated.
Someone will crack it. The point of these protection systems isn't to absolutely prevent copying (or emulation in this case?) but rather increase the amount of time before emulation becomes available (because someone cracked it)
[deleted]
> Irdeto’s services and solutions protect revenue, enable growth and fight cybercrime
"cybercrime" is such a tell word for press release BS.
What's interesting here is that there's clearly enough pressure from emulation of a system that's still the most current in its category that this product exists. There are clearly some downsides to the savings of pulling ARM architecture off-the-shelf.
"cybercrime" is such a tell word for press release BS.
What's interesting here is that there's clearly enough pressure from emulation of a system that's still the most current in its category that this product exists. There are clearly some downsides to the savings of pulling ARM architecture off-the-shelf.
> There are clearly some downsides to the savings of pulling ARM architecture off-the-shelf.
To be fair, its competitors are basically x86-64 boxes…
To be fair, its competitors are basically x86-64 boxes…
The friction in buying games these days is so low, I don't understand how this would result in more units shipped for any publisher that chooses to use this.
If you're "pirating" a game, I imagine (because this is why I pirated games in the pre-Steam days) it's because you can't afford to buy it or you refuse to give the publisher/developer your money on principle. Either way, you're not a potential customer. So sure, this may result in less emulation but not necessarily higher sales.
If you're "pirating" a game, I imagine (because this is why I pirated games in the pre-Steam days) it's because you can't afford to buy it or you refuse to give the publisher/developer your money on principle. Either way, you're not a potential customer. So sure, this may result in less emulation but not necessarily higher sales.
This has basically always been the case.
I have yet to see compelling numbers that show these systems do much of anything.
The markets most heavily served by piracy are either
1. Those completely neglected by normal distribution channels (poor countries)
2. Those who are extremely budget conscious (poor people in any country)
But it's a good sales pitch to execs to show piracy numbers and claim "Think of all the lost revenue!!!!" - when the blunt reality is that most who pirated simply don't have the means to pay for it in the first place.
The right short term answer is to heavily discount digital products for those markets (see: Steam sales) and bring the price back in line with the budget available.
The long term answer is political, and will require restructuring how digital products are made and licensed (it's time to ditch the per-copy-sold costs - they aren't the right answer for goods that have ZERO marginal cost per copy produced).
I have yet to see compelling numbers that show these systems do much of anything.
The markets most heavily served by piracy are either
1. Those completely neglected by normal distribution channels (poor countries)
2. Those who are extremely budget conscious (poor people in any country)
But it's a good sales pitch to execs to show piracy numbers and claim "Think of all the lost revenue!!!!" - when the blunt reality is that most who pirated simply don't have the means to pay for it in the first place.
The right short term answer is to heavily discount digital products for those markets (see: Steam sales) and bring the price back in line with the budget available.
The long term answer is political, and will require restructuring how digital products are made and licensed (it's time to ditch the per-copy-sold costs - they aren't the right answer for goods that have ZERO marginal cost per copy produced).
There is still a large amount of friction in keeping a game though. These types of DRMs can cause the game to be unplayable years later. Like when Alder Lake came out and a bunch of games with Denuvo DRM broke [1]. Because of all of this recent attention on it, I wouldn't be shocked if it resulted in less sales and higher rates of emulation. Probably not enough to cause a dent in sales to disincentive addition of DRM though sadly.
[1]: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/11/faulty-drm-breaks-doz...
[1]: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/11/faulty-drm-breaks-doz...
I emulate a few switch games. I prefer playing then on my desktop rather than switch all the cables over for the switch. As well as being banned from the switch store for having a modded console so you cant buy anything anyway.
why does this trash still exist? Haven't we learned anything from starforce, securom and all the other DRMs? Also don't companies understand that most people who pirate these days either do it or rather not play the game at all? Personally, I blacklisted all denuvo games long time ago and don't own any.
The time-to-crack varies depending on the game. Cracks for popular games such as Dying Light 2 and Far Cry 6 were released months after the games were initially released. Less popular games such as Burnout Paradise Remastered have yet to be cracked.
So this anti-consumer garbage is likely calculated, by the publisher, to be worth paying for Denuvo even if it eventually gets cracked.
So this anti-consumer garbage is likely calculated, by the publisher, to be worth paying for Denuvo even if it eventually gets cracked.
The problem is that the people most affected by this sort of software (the gamers) are not the customers of the company that makes it; the game publishers are. So Denuvo just needs to pitch the idea that their product will increase sales, which is certainly something publishers already want to hear.
What can we, the tech community, do to make it more likely that this ends up being defeated and an utter failure?
Several developers have walked back their use of Denuvo after fan outcry, usually armed with data about how it adversely affects performance.
That's pretty much all we can do. Of course neutralizing Denuvo (i.e. cracking it to demonstrate that it's not meaningfully preventing piracy) would also help.
That's pretty much all we can do. Of course neutralizing Denuvo (i.e. cracking it to demonstrate that it's not meaningfully preventing piracy) would also help.
> Several developers have walked back their use of Denuvo after fan outcry, usually armed with data about how it adversely affects performance.
No they haven't. They stopped paying for Denuvo after a time, given they have to pay on a monthly basis, because the number of sales they make goes down over time and Denuvo has done it's job.
No they haven't. They stopped paying for Denuvo after a time, given they have to pay on a monthly basis, because the number of sales they make goes down over time and Denuvo has done it's job.
Practically nothing. Don't buy games with DRM or anti-cheat.
>Don't buy games with anti-cheat
So you would let cheaters win? What a weird take. Small amount of people wants to ruin game for everyone > the solution shouldn't be abandoning online games
So you would let cheaters win? What a weird take. Small amount of people wants to ruin game for everyone > the solution shouldn't be abandoning online games
There are more effective ways to deal with cheaters than using anti-cheat systems that degrade system security and performance by hooking into the OS kernel. Also, in many games, anti-cheat is anti-user, because the games are /not/ online multiplayer, which means the only thing the user is "cheating" is themselves.
I don't cheat in most games, but there are a lot of games that are pretty grindy in genres I otherwise enjoy for the story, and I want to just get through it because I have a job, family, kids, and other hobbies and friends to keep up with, but I still enjoy gaming. I no longer have the ability or time to spend 200+ hours to get all aspects of a game story completed. Meanwhile, there are other games I could cheat in I would never do, because the difficulty of them is the point (Dark Souls).
Cheating in online games, especially competitive online games, is a real problem. But another piece of the problem is that this genre is dominated by "free" games which have cash shops, microtransactions, and extremely aggressive anti-cheat software, all of which are anti-user.
I don't cheat in most games, but there are a lot of games that are pretty grindy in genres I otherwise enjoy for the story, and I want to just get through it because I have a job, family, kids, and other hobbies and friends to keep up with, but I still enjoy gaming. I no longer have the ability or time to spend 200+ hours to get all aspects of a game story completed. Meanwhile, there are other games I could cheat in I would never do, because the difficulty of them is the point (Dark Souls).
Cheating in online games, especially competitive online games, is a real problem. But another piece of the problem is that this genre is dominated by "free" games which have cash shops, microtransactions, and extremely aggressive anti-cheat software, all of which are anti-user.
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What GP meant was "Don't buy games with client-side anti-cheat". For any given method of cheating, either it will be detectable from the server, or it won't be detectable even from the client (e.g., <https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/07/cheat-maker-brags-of-...>).
Devs can do whatever they want server side. Leave the client machine alone. But also, at the end of the day, they're just games. I think we started taking things a bit too seriously.
I think you're missing the point that cheater ruins games for everyone, so people leave and just don't play those games anymore.
I think you're missing the point that you can stop cheaters without needing anti-cheat on their own computers.
That's very naive, server side detection is not enough.
Crack it. As fast as possible.
Please use neutral terminology such as “community supported performance patch.”
The only person on the planet that is currently cracking Denuvo is Empress.
It doesn't even need a crack, it "just" needs more accurate emulation.
It may turn out that cracking is the path of least resistance, but making emulation more accurate is less of a legal issue - I for one would feel comfortable working on it "in the open" (which I may well do, depending on how much I care about the first Denuvo'd switch games to come out).
It may turn out that cracking is the path of least resistance, but making emulation more accurate is less of a legal issue - I for one would feel comfortable working on it "in the open" (which I may well do, depending on how much I care about the first Denuvo'd switch games to come out).
Accurate emulation is extremely hard, even for ancient hardware. See this article from 2011 for example: https://arstechnica.netblogpro.com/gaming/2011/08/accuracy-t... It takes a 3 GHz CPU to emulate the SNES accurately. You can do with less, obviously, but you will notice differences in some games.
With modern hardware, I don't think perfectly accurate emulation will ever be possible. We don't have that for the PS2 and XBox, maybe on the original PlayStation, but I am not even sure. Emulators for modern systems are all high level, emulating API calls instead of the hardware.
With modern hardware, I don't think perfectly accurate emulation will ever be possible. We don't have that for the PS2 and XBox, maybe on the original PlayStation, but I am not even sure. Emulators for modern systems are all high level, emulating API calls instead of the hardware.
If denuvo does anything that actually requires cycle-accurate emulation, I'll eat my hat.
Modern hardware is easier to emulate "accurately", simply because the real hardware does not behave as consistently as, say, a 6502 core. DRAM and cache latency are variable, and the core/bus frequencies are scaling up and down all the time. Furthermore, the coupling between the CPU and GPU is more asynchronous than it used to be.
Your emulator doesn't have to hit any specific timings, becaure there aren't any - it just has to be within some range of plausibility.
I wouldn't be surprised if denuvo does make use of timing to some extent, but it won't need cycle-accurate emulation to defeat, just fudging the numbers to get close enough.
Modern hardware is easier to emulate "accurately", simply because the real hardware does not behave as consistently as, say, a 6502 core. DRAM and cache latency are variable, and the core/bus frequencies are scaling up and down all the time. Furthermore, the coupling between the CPU and GPU is more asynchronous than it used to be.
Your emulator doesn't have to hit any specific timings, becaure there aren't any - it just has to be within some range of plausibility.
I wouldn't be surprised if denuvo does make use of timing to some extent, but it won't need cycle-accurate emulation to defeat, just fudging the numbers to get close enough.
Weren’t some games that came with Denuvo cracked in a comically quick fashion in the past?
only because they left the demo executable linked without denuvo with everything working
have fun learning about devirtualisation and compiler theory
"we, the tech community" lol. If it makes more money, it will be done.
[deleted]
I see their site is 504... Imagine what their 'protection' is doing to the gaming experience when they can't manage a popular link from HN.
Love that this is an anti-emulator SDK rather than anti-piracy/copy.
So hacked Switch consoles will continue to be able to play these games perfectly well, emulators will find a method around it (see: Ape Escape PS1 DRM patches), and only legitimate Switch consoles will suffer as whatever amount of unpack-execute-dbgbreak-call-repack cycles are done to "protect" the game code.
So hacked Switch consoles will continue to be able to play these games perfectly well, emulators will find a method around it (see: Ape Escape PS1 DRM patches), and only legitimate Switch consoles will suffer as whatever amount of unpack-execute-dbgbreak-call-repack cycles are done to "protect" the game code.
It seems to me that a game having Denuvo is generally a sign of it being garbage in quality. Good games don't need DRM locks to sell well, as so many titles have demonstrated. The only good games I know that had Denuvo are Doom Eternal and Nier Automata, and both ended up removing it.
Any technical details out there on how it works? The press release is (understandably) silent on this.
Site down, here’s a mirror: https://archive.ph/pN0f0
I hope Nintendo is ready for the refund requests.
That would require them to give refunds at all, the eShop currently does not do that and no one fought them on it yet.
Realistically Nintendo can do whatever they want, they could take a dump in times square and people would flock to it. They've been selling broken controllers for 6 years.
Realistically Nintendo can do whatever they want, they could take a dump in times square and people would flock to it. They've been selling broken controllers for 6 years.
I’ve always found this an interesting criticism. Switch controllers might break more often but I’ve never had a game system controller that didn’t end up with drift in the course of a year or two (and I don’t play games often.)
It's not just drift, even though that statistically is more likely to happen in JoyCons, there were/are quite a few issues with Switch controllers:
* Big connectivity issues for a long while after launch(I couldn't play on my couch with the switch in front of my TV)
* Aforementioned drift
* Sticky buttons on Pro controllers, those still happen
* None of the Nintendo controllers correctly advertise polling rate for BT HID, so they're impossible to use on most phones
All of that at more than premium prices, even in refreshed/newly produced units.
* Big connectivity issues for a long while after launch(I couldn't play on my couch with the switch in front of my TV)
* Aforementioned drift
* Sticky buttons on Pro controllers, those still happen
* None of the Nintendo controllers correctly advertise polling rate for BT HID, so they're impossible to use on most phones
All of that at more than premium prices, even in refreshed/newly produced units.
"Big connectivity issues for a long while after launch(I couldn't play on my couch with the switch in front of my TV)"
Did they somehow fix that? I basically gave up on my Switch for that reason. Having to lean forward on the couch to get the controller to reliably work was a dealbreaker.
Did they somehow fix that? I basically gave up on my Switch for that reason. Having to lean forward on the couch to get the controller to reliably work was a dealbreaker.
I feel like it's better, they must have boosted the transmit power or something - it was basically unusable, so they probably had no choice. I can use them in that spot now anyway.
I’m on the other end of the spectrum, play quite a lot of games have never experienced drift. Our switch controllers are a good 5yrs old at this point and seem fine. That said I suspect I’m an outlier, when we took our PS2 to tradein after 10+yrs of use the shop assistant remarked that the controlers looked barely used (definitely not the case), guess I just use controllers gently?
I used the same xbox 360 controller for PC gaming until I literally wore the tops of the analog sticks off and it never drifted. My Switch Pro controller started drifting after eight months.
I have two Switches, neither have controller drift, that said, I gamed extensively for decades and game sporadically now. I've never had any first-party controller break, only third-party controllers. The only first-party console issue I've had was the RROD on the Xbox 360, and modified an Xbox 360 Elite to resolve this, and it /still/ works with its original controllers, and is still used sometimes.
That said, as far as first-party products go, the Sony Playstation controllers have been consistently the highest quality products across generations as far as controllers go, but from a feel perspective I prefer the Xbox controllers.
That said, as far as first-party products go, the Sony Playstation controllers have been consistently the highest quality products across generations as far as controllers go, but from a feel perspective I prefer the Xbox controllers.
All modern joysticks (swtich, PS, and Xbox) are made by the same company with similar internal construction. This whole Nintendo is worse than sony, etc is questionable until there's a full characterization of the issue. In my experience, they all experience drift about the same. Until there's competition in the market, I don't see the issue improving. Nintendo certainly isn't going to start developing joysticks internally... Those days are long gone.
502 bad gateway
i'd love to see the techniques used in this
Lots of Anti-DRM sentiment here, understandably. However, I think the big issue is the Steamdeck becoming a popular platform for Switch emulation. That's simply not ok. It's wild Valve can get away with this. I would think Nintendo would sue, but its probably fruitless.
As someone who bought a Steam Deck almost entirely for the purpose of handheld emulation who also owns two Switches, I can tell you that most of the emulation scene on the Deck is very much /not/ Switch games. It's mostly people emulating games from the NES, SNES, N64, Dreamcast, PSX, and similar older systems. Most of these games would do well if they had proper re-releases with updated graphics quality, but the releases we have seen (on PC anyway) have mostly been the original game with an inferior emulator wrapped around it, being resold without any improvements. Square/FF games have been especially guilty of this sin on PC, and pretty much muddied the waters.
Meanwhile, Nintendo has been smarter on Switch, shipping first-party emulators for NES and SNES (but without the games people actually want in the catalog), and has convinced Square to re-release Seiken Densetsu 3 with an official English translation on the Switch w/ the full Mana Trilogy, which I bought and paid for, even though I could emulate all three games because they had improved graphics and an official translation.
I think the concern you have here is wildly overblown, and for the most part there are a tiny tiny tiny amount of people who are pirating Switch games by running them in emulators. Most Switch piracy is happening /on the Switch/ by people running games off the SD Card instead of buying carts/downloading officially, using patched OS / loaders. Nintendo basically killed this for Switches made after the first run in the first generation, and it's even a non-issue.
Meanwhile, Nintendo has been smarter on Switch, shipping first-party emulators for NES and SNES (but without the games people actually want in the catalog), and has convinced Square to re-release Seiken Densetsu 3 with an official English translation on the Switch w/ the full Mana Trilogy, which I bought and paid for, even though I could emulate all three games because they had improved graphics and an official translation.
I think the concern you have here is wildly overblown, and for the most part there are a tiny tiny tiny amount of people who are pirating Switch games by running them in emulators. Most Switch piracy is happening /on the Switch/ by people running games off the SD Card instead of buying carts/downloading officially, using patched OS / loaders. Nintendo basically killed this for Switches made after the first run in the first generation, and it's even a non-issue.
Any recommendations for graphical menus for the emulations? I've got a raspberry pi set up for it pretty nicely, but I've been wondering if I could set up the Steam Deck for it instead for my arcade cabinet.
This is the answer: https://www.emudeck.com/
> As someone who bought a Steam Deck almost entirely for the purpose of handheld emulation
And you seriously can't see the problem? The Steam Deck is direct competitor to the Switch, that also just happens to be the best Nintendo console ever made. Valve profits from it, but can deny any wrong doing. I think you just don't want to admit that intellectual property is a thing - something we hold in high regard in western economies.
And you seriously can't see the problem? The Steam Deck is direct competitor to the Switch, that also just happens to be the best Nintendo console ever made. Valve profits from it, but can deny any wrong doing. I think you just don't want to admit that intellectual property is a thing - something we hold in high regard in western economies.
Do you think the Steam Deck ships with a Switch emulator installed? It doesn't, nor does Steam even have one for download. You can load one on because it's literally just a handheld computer but you can also load on pirated PC games...
It's not the primary purpose of the device. I've yet to even bother loading up an emulator and have just been playing PC games.
It's basically as ludicrous as suggesting Microsoft is also supporting Switch piracy because Yuzu also runs on Windows.
It's not the primary purpose of the device. I've yet to even bother loading up an emulator and have just been playing PC games.
It's basically as ludicrous as suggesting Microsoft is also supporting Switch piracy because Yuzu also runs on Windows.
Then perhaps Nintendo should release their own best Nintendo console ever made.
> intellectual property is a thing - something we hold in high regard in western economies
Citation needed. Both me and lots of us here on HN certainly don't hold intellectual property in high regard, because as framework it's done a lot to damage progress.
> intellectual property is a thing - something we hold in high regard in western economies
Citation needed. Both me and lots of us here on HN certainly don't hold intellectual property in high regard, because as framework it's done a lot to damage progress.
> I think you just don't want to admit that intellectual property is a thing - something we hold in high regard in western economies.
Intellectual Property law in the US is a complete mess and any rational analysis would acknowledge that.
That said, I don't play Switch games on my Steam Deck, I don't even have any Switch roms. I own a Switch, why would I play those games on a Steam Deck when I can just play them on the Switch?
Yes, the Steam Deck is the best Nintendo console ever made, for emulating Chrono Trigger (my favorite game, and arguably the greatest RPG of all time, released in 1995 for the SNES), that for some reason Nintendo has never re-released on the Switch or provided in their first-party emulators on Switch, despite it being the most requested game for the platform.
So... I reiterate my original statements. You are blowing up a non-issue out of proportion.
Intellectual Property law in the US is a complete mess and any rational analysis would acknowledge that.
That said, I don't play Switch games on my Steam Deck, I don't even have any Switch roms. I own a Switch, why would I play those games on a Steam Deck when I can just play them on the Switch?
Yes, the Steam Deck is the best Nintendo console ever made, for emulating Chrono Trigger (my favorite game, and arguably the greatest RPG of all time, released in 1995 for the SNES), that for some reason Nintendo has never re-released on the Switch or provided in their first-party emulators on Switch, despite it being the most requested game for the platform.
So... I reiterate my original statements. You are blowing up a non-issue out of proportion.
It's a Square Enix game so Nintendo has no control on whether or not to re-release it. There is an admittedly rough PC port of Chrono Trigger on Steam playable on Steam Deck.
The PC port doesn't have proper controls on Steam Deck, I already own it on Steam.
That said, Chrono Trigger originally released in 1995, when Nintendo entered into pretty serious agreements with publishers. No, they cannot unilaterally republish it, but they have significant power here and have worked with Square on re-releasing other games. Chrono Trigger is one that they've never republished (possibly due to agreements with Sony since it was republished on PSX).
That said, Chrono Trigger originally released in 1995, when Nintendo entered into pretty serious agreements with publishers. No, they cannot unilaterally republish it, but they have significant power here and have worked with Square on re-releasing other games. Chrono Trigger is one that they've never republished (possibly due to agreements with Sony since it was republished on PSX).
What do you mean "Valve" is the one getting away with this? Emulation is a choice made by the users. That Steamdeck is not locked down to make arbitrary code execution impossible, is what makes it a good platform.
What exactly do you think Valve did wrong that they should be sued for? Should Quaker Oats Company have gotten sued over the Cap'n Crunch whistles that became popular for hacking phone systems?
The Steam Deck is a computer. It's literally advertised as dockable with a full Linux desktop. Do you think Nintendo should also sue Microsoft for allowing emulators to run on Windows?
> the Steamdeck becoming a popular platform for Switch emulation. That's simply not ok. It's wild Valve can get away with this. I would think Nintendo would sue, but its probably fruitless.
What is Valve getting away with / what would Nintendo sue for? Valve is just selling a general-purpose computer that is intended for - and I suspect (but don't have numbers) mostly used for - running games from Steam. That it's a general-purpose computer and thus ends up running some emulators doesn't make it illegal any more than, say, a Macbook, which can run emulators just as well. Valve would have to somehow be going out of their way to intentionally push/support running Switch games on the Steamdeck for Nintendo to have any standing to go after them.
What is Valve getting away with / what would Nintendo sue for? Valve is just selling a general-purpose computer that is intended for - and I suspect (but don't have numbers) mostly used for - running games from Steam. That it's a general-purpose computer and thus ends up running some emulators doesn't make it illegal any more than, say, a Macbook, which can run emulators just as well. Valve would have to somehow be going out of their way to intentionally push/support running Switch games on the Steamdeck for Nintendo to have any standing to go after them.
That's between Nintendo's ego and people who own the steam deck, not valve.
https://www.nme.com/news/gaming-news/mass-effect-legendary-e...
Note how getting rid of Denuvo also saved about one gigabyte (!!) of disk space.
Denuvo slowed some games down so much that playing online with a cracked version is considered cheating.
I am baffled they are still on the market. If I find out that a game comes with Denuvo DRM, I will not spend money on it. In times where GPU prices are daylight robbery and most people are paying with old hardware, I can't understand why game publishers would deliberately cripple performance of their games. Don't they talk to the developers to find out how much money it cost to optimize the last 10% fps out of the game in the first place?