Poll: Contractors, what is your hourly rate
270 comments
This is important information even for non-contractors.
I was interviewing for a position several years ago. They had zero software people at the time (the last guy quit) and one of the hardware engineers in frustration told me they were contracting some company (2 guys in barn) for like $50k a month. Since I would be replacing them I aimed high, but still well below them. Company didn't even question my salary. If I'm not mistaken they gave me "manager" title simply to put my pay in the right bracket, but that also meant my bonus was higher than most the other engineers.
Know what a company is willing to pay for work, contract or not.
I was interviewing for a position several years ago. They had zero software people at the time (the last guy quit) and one of the hardware engineers in frustration told me they were contracting some company (2 guys in barn) for like $50k a month. Since I would be replacing them I aimed high, but still well below them. Company didn't even question my salary. If I'm not mistaken they gave me "manager" title simply to put my pay in the right bracket, but that also meant my bonus was higher than most the other engineers.
Know what a company is willing to pay for work, contract or not.
Now that I've been on the other side (hiring contractors as a company exec) after many years being a contractor, I kind of see it differently. Unfortunately a lot of this stuff (seeing someone's worth) is often gut feeling.
We have had a couple contractors bill us on the higher side like you but in their case, I knew they were worth it. Even though it was a lot of money for us, we saw it as a "will they bring that much value and more?" I knew that they wouldn't just code, they would meaningfully move the company's foundational technology forward, mentor the team, etc.
And they did exactly that. If we did have revenue pressure, they'd be the first ones whose hours we'd cut down (but they're so talented they'd find more work in a few hours). But it wasn't hard to justify getting them on board.
I had one devops firm quote me $250/hr but quite honestly, I haven't worked with them yet. So it was a very easy no (it was more likely they would've put a random person worth 1/3 of that on our project). But for the right person (someone who performs at a very high level), for the right period of time (these folks get a lot done quickly), even that rate is palatable to companies.
We have had a couple contractors bill us on the higher side like you but in their case, I knew they were worth it. Even though it was a lot of money for us, we saw it as a "will they bring that much value and more?" I knew that they wouldn't just code, they would meaningfully move the company's foundational technology forward, mentor the team, etc.
And they did exactly that. If we did have revenue pressure, they'd be the first ones whose hours we'd cut down (but they're so talented they'd find more work in a few hours). But it wasn't hard to justify getting them on board.
I had one devops firm quote me $250/hr but quite honestly, I haven't worked with them yet. So it was a very easy no (it was more likely they would've put a random person worth 1/3 of that on our project). But for the right person (someone who performs at a very high level), for the right period of time (these folks get a lot done quickly), even that rate is palatable to companies.
I will just say that it’s never 1:1 because contractors come with way less benefit and legal baggage than employees. I’ve had a CFO tell me he’s willing to pay 2x-3x salary to get the same work from contractors.
Also any contractor has to request 2x-3x more than when receiving a salary, to cover for extra expenses and taxes and for extra risks (time when no contract is obtained).
Hell, less baggage _in general_ … they’re not gonna get offended easily, have adamant work styles, wanna just play politics etc
They just come in and get shit done
They just come in and get shit done
>> I’ve had a CFO tell me he’s willing to pay 2x-3x salary
I took that into account. I made between 100k and 200k per year vs the other guys 600k for the same work, which I arguably did better since it was my specialty. The company really was being taken for a ride by the contractors (if what I was told was true).
I took that into account. I made between 100k and 200k per year vs the other guys 600k for the same work, which I arguably did better since it was my specialty. The company really was being taken for a ride by the contractors (if what I was told was true).
Companies being taken for a ride by contractors: 100% happens. I’ve seen it first hand from the head offices. In both cases it was “we’re going with product X because it’s supposed to be the best. Does anyone here have expertise in it? No? Good thing the vendor has trusted partners.”
One contracting company had the audacity to fly in two carloads of “experts” before the system was even set up. They lingered and deflected even the most basic questions about the product.
One contracting company had the audacity to fly in two carloads of “experts” before the system was even set up. They lingered and deflected even the most basic questions about the product.
I've moved my effective hourly rate from $250/h to up to $1k/h by billing on a project basis. I did this after I ran across Jonathan Stark's book Hourly Billing is Nuts[1] and implemented a lot of his advice.
The two best things I've done to increase my effective hourly rate and my topline revenue in my solo consulting practice have been 1) taking his advice to ditch hourly billing and 2) niching down to focus on Trial to Paid conversion[2].
1 - https://jonathanstark.com/hbin
2 - http://www.trialtopaid.com
The two best things I've done to increase my effective hourly rate and my topline revenue in my solo consulting practice have been 1) taking his advice to ditch hourly billing and 2) niching down to focus on Trial to Paid conversion[2].
1 - https://jonathanstark.com/hbin
2 - http://www.trialtopaid.com
How do you bill on a project basis? Half the people say that billing anything other than hourly is nuts, and the other group says anything other than fixed price is nuts.
I niche down and understand what my customers want. I set reasonable prices for the size of customer I want ($1-$10M ARR B2B SaaS) and the kind of results I can deliver and post them on my site[1].
When I get an inbound request we're not even talking price because anybody who contacts me has seen them. I'm leaving money on the table but I don't want to spend time negotiating, it lengthens the sales cycle.
I don't do custom work until a second phase. The phase 1 service I offer goes through my standardized process so I know how long it'll take to deliver. There's very little variance which makes it easier for me to know my cost to deliver.
Phase 2 (wireframes) can be custom but by that point I have a lot more context on what I need to deliver, how long it'll take, and how much it's worth to the client. If they're asking about phase 2 it means I've proven myself and the negotiation is short because we've built trust.
I tracked time for the first couple of projects because I wanted to see how long they took to deliver. So now I know my effective hourly rate.
1- https://www.reemer.com/services/
When I get an inbound request we're not even talking price because anybody who contacts me has seen them. I'm leaving money on the table but I don't want to spend time negotiating, it lengthens the sales cycle.
I don't do custom work until a second phase. The phase 1 service I offer goes through my standardized process so I know how long it'll take to deliver. There's very little variance which makes it easier for me to know my cost to deliver.
Phase 2 (wireframes) can be custom but by that point I have a lot more context on what I need to deliver, how long it'll take, and how much it's worth to the client. If they're asking about phase 2 it means I've proven myself and the negotiation is short because we've built trust.
I tracked time for the first couple of projects because I wanted to see how long they took to deliver. So now I know my effective hourly rate.
1- https://www.reemer.com/services/
So is publishing content your “hook” or are you going to conferences and making connections first?
I had a decent network when I niched down so emails to friends + family generated some jobs which resulted in word of mouth referrals. But email everybody who you think might be helpful - a lawyer friend of mine referred his friend that makes software for lawyers who needed my help. 2nd degree referrals can be great!
Content has also worked but production has admittedly been anemic. Mostly because I've been so busy.
Content has also worked but production has admittedly been anemic. Mostly because I've been so busy.
What does "niched down" mean and how do you "nich (niche?) down"?
> How do you bill on a project basis? Half the people say that billing anything other than hourly is nuts, and the other group says anything other than fixed price is nuts.
I bill on both a fixed price basis and time and materials basis (not programming to be open - but I do supply chain consulting where projects can also vary dramatically from the initial estimate!)
A few points:
- Fixed price is for a fixed scope. You can't have a fixed price without a fixed scope (this is why I do a mix - because poorly defined scopes are better under T&M).
- 50% billed upfront, 50% paid after a deliverable is delivered. The deliverable is clearly defined in the scope above, so there is no ambiguity about if the final deliverable is done. This can be negotiated with more payment milestones - but there is always an upfront payment if fixed price.
- I include a standard hourly rate in the contract, and then if there are changes, I just tell the client that these will be billed at the standard hourly rate and add these to the invoice. I try to be really fair here and not screw people over, and in general people respond by not challenging these invoices.
One additional advantage of a fixed price not listed elsewhere is that it makes sales a lot easier - clients often don't trust a T&M price and get their fingers burnt a lot - fixed prices can drive the right incentives if properly scoped and done with good intentions.
I bill on both a fixed price basis and time and materials basis (not programming to be open - but I do supply chain consulting where projects can also vary dramatically from the initial estimate!)
A few points:
- Fixed price is for a fixed scope. You can't have a fixed price without a fixed scope (this is why I do a mix - because poorly defined scopes are better under T&M).
- 50% billed upfront, 50% paid after a deliverable is delivered. The deliverable is clearly defined in the scope above, so there is no ambiguity about if the final deliverable is done. This can be negotiated with more payment milestones - but there is always an upfront payment if fixed price.
- I include a standard hourly rate in the contract, and then if there are changes, I just tell the client that these will be billed at the standard hourly rate and add these to the invoice. I try to be really fair here and not screw people over, and in general people respond by not challenging these invoices.
One additional advantage of a fixed price not listed elsewhere is that it makes sales a lot easier - clients often don't trust a T&M price and get their fingers burnt a lot - fixed prices can drive the right incentives if properly scoped and done with good intentions.
I wrapped up a $200k fixed-rate project a few months ago that ended up being around $450/hr when the final invoice was sent. You have to know exactly what they need, typically by having experience in that industry. In this particular example, I had worked as an FTE for their largest competitor with a nearly identical product suite for like 6 years. I knew more about what they needed than their newly hired VP of Engineering did because he was only about 6 months into the industry.
Sounds amazing! How do you avoid the "oh, one more minor thing that is absolutely needed or the entire project will be a failure" that happens 75 times at the end of every project?
Do you just waterfall the requirements and don't start working until every i is dotted and every t is crossed in the requirements?
Do you just waterfall the requirements and don't start working until every i is dotted and every t is crossed in the requirements?
For this one in particular, it was split into a dozen or so modules and each one was specced and priced individually. Like you suggested, work didn't start until a module was fully done w/ all the design and specifications, and we mostly were able to stay 3-4 modules ahead in terms of requirements gathering. Not super agile but if you're quoting a price for months and months of work where the deadline is literally "this specific Tuesday in May," Agile just doesn't work. This time was "free" but included in my 450/hr number.
There a couple legitimately important "new" things which came up. Some got added on as T&M to one invoice or another, some I just did because they were just a few hours of work and not really worth the back and forth.
I would be very, very hesitant to start on a large fixed-price project without knowing a lot about the industry already.
There a couple legitimately important "new" things which came up. Some got added on as T&M to one invoice or another, some I just did because they were just a few hours of work and not really worth the back and forth.
I would be very, very hesitant to start on a large fixed-price project without knowing a lot about the industry already.
I totally agree that one has to know the circumstances very well to do fixed bid successfully. But one quibble on the Agile stuff:
Agile is not a match for the contract if the client values contract negotiation over customer collaboration, as that's the opposite of one of the Agile values. [1]
However, even with a fixed-price contract, one can use Agile approaches internally so that you finish pieces early and often, in an order prioritized by customer value. That way when the specific Tuesday in May arrives, you are most likely to have completed the pieces they most care about. And also have the flexibility to make tweaks if priorities change.
[1] https://agilemanifesto.org/
Agile is not a match for the contract if the client values contract negotiation over customer collaboration, as that's the opposite of one of the Agile values. [1]
However, even with a fixed-price contract, one can use Agile approaches internally so that you finish pieces early and often, in an order prioritized by customer value. That way when the specific Tuesday in May arrives, you are most likely to have completed the pieces they most care about. And also have the flexibility to make tweaks if priorities change.
[1] https://agilemanifesto.org/
Not the OP, but I charge a weekrate, ex expenses. Not for software development, but the same principles apply: if it isn't worth it then whoever wants to hire me is free to go elsewhere. The big trick is to deliver a large multiple of your weekrate in value for the party you are working for.
Same here. Hourly billing is nice when you're a lawyer or an accountant. The best part: the crappy customers all left and eventually got replaced by much better ones.
My impression is that ditching the hourly billing is for people who have already honned their skills and market and are confident in their habilities.
From a customer perspective, with a fixed bid, isn't contractor incentivized to cut corners? Especially because software 'quality' is so subjective and hard to asses (comparing to a bathroom remodel for example). Is project billing mainly used for auxilary, non critical, work? E.g. build a static website for a company that sell shrink wrap software, not the core software itself?
> From a customer perspective, with a fixed bid, isn't contractor incentivized to cut corners?
It would depend on who you're contracting with.
There are no doubt countless (particularly massive, govt) projects where the contracted company does only the bare minimum work under the contract and doesn't care about burning the relationship. On the other hand the general arguments in favor of fixed bid from the client side is that it a) gives the client a specific number to budget/get approval for and b) it incentivizes the contractor to time-efficiently deliver what has been agreed to.
Fixed bids work best when both parties have a shared, concrete idea of what needs to be delivered including level of quality and the likely amount minor changes along the way. However in practice this is often not the case, and when a difference of good-faith expectations happens usually no one is left happy. The client may feel that certain aspects were presumed to be included in the fixed bid proposal and will likely need to submit formal change requests to pay for more work (that may need to get additional approval). On the other side the contractor may feel the client is trying to squeeze potentially a sizable amount of free work beyond what was agreed upon/charged.
Contracting on a time & materials basis alleviates most of the problems mentioned, but comes with its own downsides/risks for both sides.
It would depend on who you're contracting with.
There are no doubt countless (particularly massive, govt) projects where the contracted company does only the bare minimum work under the contract and doesn't care about burning the relationship. On the other hand the general arguments in favor of fixed bid from the client side is that it a) gives the client a specific number to budget/get approval for and b) it incentivizes the contractor to time-efficiently deliver what has been agreed to.
Fixed bids work best when both parties have a shared, concrete idea of what needs to be delivered including level of quality and the likely amount minor changes along the way. However in practice this is often not the case, and when a difference of good-faith expectations happens usually no one is left happy. The client may feel that certain aspects were presumed to be included in the fixed bid proposal and will likely need to submit formal change requests to pay for more work (that may need to get additional approval). On the other side the contractor may feel the client is trying to squeeze potentially a sizable amount of free work beyond what was agreed upon/charged.
Contracting on a time & materials basis alleviates most of the problems mentioned, but comes with its own downsides/risks for both sides.
Isn’t the inverse also true? That the contractor is incentivized to create extra work or drag things out when charging hourly? I suppose deadlines mitigate this…
Yes, I think it is a tradeoff between the two. Since this thread is about individual contractors (not big consultancies), for customer it might be easier to control hourly rate contractor. Because it is easier to spot if someone is creating extra work. As opposed to assessing whether a final project not only works, but is up to customer's quality standards (whatever those might be).
This depends on the types of projects. If you are doing a project where you have decent control and scope, project billing is ideal for both client and contractor. Unfortunately many projects I work are huge and shift constantly due to other factors, people, and organizations out of my control. So going to hourly on these puts the responsibility on those managing the project.
Interesting you say you use http://www.trialtopaid.com to make money when that site is down...
https://www.trialtopaid.com (https) doesn't work right now but http://www.trialtopaid.com (http) redirects to my consulting site https://www.reemer.com.
If you're using an extension that only does https you won't get redirected.
Haven't bothered setting TTP.com up properly yet. Shoeless cobbler's kids, etc.
If you're using an extension that only does https you won't get redirected.
Haven't bothered setting TTP.com up properly yet. Shoeless cobbler's kids, etc.
[deleted]
+1 doctor who smokes.
I get that HN randomises the order of the options on polls to remove positional bias, but for a numeric poll with a natural order like this it results in horrible UX.
(Apologies for the HN meta comment)
(Apologies for the HN meta comment)
This is a good argument for rewriting HN in Rust.
While we're at it, can we build a blockchain to store the votes already? It's 2022!
Perhaps we could fund HN by issuing NFTs for each poll response.
I'm disappointed that we haven't talked about
a) using the GPU to accelerate the poll item sorting (EDIT: I was wrong! Someone did!)
b) rewriting not just the backend in Rust, but the whole front-end in Rust, compiling to WebAssembly. (Drawing the whole thing into the canvas instead of using the icky DOM, too!)
c) Machine learning wasn't mentioned once
a) using the GPU to accelerate the poll item sorting (EDIT: I was wrong! Someone did!)
b) rewriting not just the backend in Rust, but the whole front-end in Rust, compiling to WebAssembly. (Drawing the whole thing into the canvas instead of using the icky DOM, too!)
c) Machine learning wasn't mentioned once
Re: c) who do you think writes these comments?
[Can't tell if serious.]
Remember the Slashdot equivalent of blockchaining everything? "Imagine a Beowulf cluster of those!"
Remember the Slashdot equivalent of blockchaining everything? "Imagine a Beowulf cluster of those!"
I suppose we can find a consultant for that in this thread.
Hahahahahahaha this made me lose some of my coffee.
Who volunteers to write the data analytics in Julia?
Who volunteers to write the data analytics in Julia?
An Arc to Rust transpiler would do a much better job than a manual rewrite!
Just in case some people think that's not a joke, Lobsters is written with Ruby on Rails: https://github.com/lobsters/lobsters/
Written in Ruby though[0] and pretty badly at that (or so they claim themselves)
[0] https://github.com/lobsters/lobsters
[0] https://github.com/lobsters/lobsters
By glancing at the link they provide, "quite sad" is obviously a reference to the top comment on the reddit thread, where someone immediately shits on the whole project by pointing to one line of code that they don't approve of.
yeah I noticed that too :(
Edit 2: I didn’t realize I was replying to OP, so what I wrote below is not very relevant.
I’ll leave it here so people can read it if they’re trying to avoid doing something else.
Original comment below
——-
As long as we’re doing HN meta comments, I’ll bring up that your “me too” reply is a pet peeve of mine.
It would’ve been better to just upvote the parent comment and not reply with “me too”. A comment like that adds nothing to the conversation.
Truly no offense is intended but the only time it’s additive is when the person saying it is notable to the conversation. Like OP, the article author, a moderator, etc.
In those cases it’s only helpful if they clearly state who they are. Otherwise, it comes off as just another person asking for attention without contributing something.
So, I downvoted your comment but wanted you to know why.
Now, that I’ve said my peace, I must find something else to procrastinate with.
Maybe I’ll continually refresh this page with the hope that I’ll get a reply and could procrastinate further by writing another long winded comment.
Bonus points if they say something I think is blatantly wrong.
Fingers crossed.
Edit: Anytime I see a “me too” comment, I sing the line from Weird Al’s “all about the pentiums”. I won’t repeat the line because it’s offensive and that’s not how I feel but I sing it every time.
I wonder if anyone else does this too.
I’ll leave it here so people can read it if they’re trying to avoid doing something else.
Original comment below
——-
As long as we’re doing HN meta comments, I’ll bring up that your “me too” reply is a pet peeve of mine.
It would’ve been better to just upvote the parent comment and not reply with “me too”. A comment like that adds nothing to the conversation.
Truly no offense is intended but the only time it’s additive is when the person saying it is notable to the conversation. Like OP, the article author, a moderator, etc.
In those cases it’s only helpful if they clearly state who they are. Otherwise, it comes off as just another person asking for attention without contributing something.
So, I downvoted your comment but wanted you to know why.
Now, that I’ve said my peace, I must find something else to procrastinate with.
Maybe I’ll continually refresh this page with the hope that I’ll get a reply and could procrastinate further by writing another long winded comment.
Bonus points if they say something I think is blatantly wrong.
Fingers crossed.
Edit: Anytime I see a “me too” comment, I sing the line from Weird Al’s “all about the pentiums”. I won’t repeat the line because it’s offensive and that’s not how I feel but I sing it every time.
I wonder if anyone else does this too.
While I agree with you, I think the exception to the rule (and maybe a few others) is the OP of a post, in this case sixhobbets is the OP.
::face palm::
Thanks for pointing that out.
I will change my downvote to an upvote.
Though I did mention that it’s acceptable for someone like OP but only when they explicitly say they’re OP. However, it would be silly for OP to keep mentioning they’re OP in every comment.
Reddit is nice in the way they give OPs comment a slight treatment to make it clear they are OP.
Thanks for pointing that out.
I will change my downvote to an upvote.
Though I did mention that it’s acceptable for someone like OP but only when they explicitly say they’re OP. However, it would be silly for OP to keep mentioning they’re OP in every comment.
Reddit is nice in the way they give OPs comment a slight treatment to make it clear they are OP.
I use Refined Hacker News (https://github.com/plibither8/refined-hacker-news), which helpfully highlights the OP in the HN orange.
That's a great option for desktop but this flub was done on mobile.
Sixhobbits is notable and important to me. They deeerve dignity and our respect
Aside from being OP, it would be nice if you included why they are notable and important to you.
Simply stating that someone deserves dignity and respect (which is something everyone deserves and I hope I didn’t take that away from OP) because they are important to you is empty without additional context.
Simply stating that someone deserves dignity and respect (which is something everyone deserves and I hope I didn’t take that away from OP) because they are important to you is empty without additional context.
Started at $40/hour, met someone who told me I was hugely undercharging for my services and devaluing my work, so increased to $100/hour (which improved my relationship with my clients and had the nice side effect of being taken seriously), then $125, $150 and eventually had a couple of clients I wasn't that keen on that I decided to charge $300 per hour to see if they'd balk or not. They didn't.
It does mean that now the majority of my work is the work for those exhausting clients that pay very well. Not great for my work/life balance, great for my bank account.
It does mean that now the majority of my work is the work for those exhausting clients that pay very well. Not great for my work/life balance, great for my bank account.
There’s a lawyers joke about being careful about throwing out an absurd rate for a client you really don’t want to take without saying no, but then they accept and you’re like, crap.
What kind of work if you don’t mind me asking? And do you get embedded in a team like their other engineers or solo?
Do you increase to $100 with the leverage of new clients willing to pay that much, or do you just say "yeah I'm $100 now"?
It would be poor form to change rates mid-project, and difficult to do if there's a formal agreement or statement of work involved. As I get to the end of a project I start looking around for something new, if there's more than one option I use rate to help decide which one to do. If one project (A) is more interesting or I like the customer better, they get the current rate $x quoted, but the other (B) gets $x+25. With an offer from B in hand, it's easier to ask A to match, and almost always they do. Same with salary negotiations - much easier to negotiate from a position with options.
Totally agreed on having options.
One thing I recommend to folks: have a high base rate and then discount for things you really want to work on. People really like discounts, and the high nominal rate establishes you as important/worthy. It's also a good way to work toward increasing existing clients. If you tell them, "My base rate is now X, but as established clients I'll give you the old rate for one more project," that lets them feel special and gives them time to adjust.
One thing I recommend to folks: have a high base rate and then discount for things you really want to work on. People really like discounts, and the high nominal rate establishes you as important/worthy. It's also a good way to work toward increasing existing clients. If you tell them, "My base rate is now X, but as established clients I'll give you the old rate for one more project," that lets them feel special and gives them time to adjust.
I find discounts to be a bit of a double edged swords, clients who have received a discount eventually expect you to always give them discounts...
What I've done in the past however for projects I believed in is to give a steep discount in exchange for revenue share. That works a lot better for early stage startups and has been hit and miss but I did get one good success out of this.
What I've done in the past however for projects I believed in is to give a steep discount in exchange for revenue share. That works a lot better for early stage startups and has been hit and miss but I did get one good success out of this.
Yes, yes, yes. So many technical people vastly undercharge. My firm experience is that the more you charge, the better people listen.
If you need $x/hr and the draining clients are willing to pay you $3x/hr, have you considered spending a third to half of your time on those clients, and the remainder of your time doing absolutely whatever you want?
A full week of stuff you don't want to be doing is exhausting, but a couple of days of it in return for a four or five day weekend can feel very different.
A full week of stuff you don't want to be doing is exhausting, but a couple of days of it in return for a four or five day weekend can feel very different.
I'm currently building enough nest egg to retire in a couple of years. So while it's a bit exhausting, there's a clear end of the line.
I'm not going to actually retire but I've always wanted to do a phd and there's not much money there to be made so with a kid, I'd rather have enough to no longer worry :)
I'm not going to actually retire but I've always wanted to do a phd and there's not much money there to be made so with a kid, I'd rather have enough to no longer worry :)
Salesforce is an interesting one - many eng leaders don’t consider it “engineering” because they aren’t that familiar with the platform (often the salesforce devs are grouped in the the salesforce admins in their minds, and organizationally the salesforce devs often sit under IT), so it’s a problem they don’t think about much.
Then they are surprised when they find themselves desperately needing the skill set once the business has decided to do a big salesforce thing and not having anyone on hand who a) can do apex / knows salesforce or b) is willing to do it.
So they often turn to salesforce speciality agencies and pay through the nose.
To answer your question - I’ve seen salesforce agencies bill their developers and designers at a blended rate of $170-$200 for $1M+ projects for onshore (US) talent. I suspect if you are a decent software engineer who knows salesforce well you can probably find clients willing to pay higher rates.
Then they are surprised when they find themselves desperately needing the skill set once the business has decided to do a big salesforce thing and not having anyone on hand who a) can do apex / knows salesforce or b) is willing to do it.
So they often turn to salesforce speciality agencies and pay through the nose.
To answer your question - I’ve seen salesforce agencies bill their developers and designers at a blended rate of $170-$200 for $1M+ projects for onshore (US) talent. I suspect if you are a decent software engineer who knows salesforce well you can probably find clients willing to pay higher rates.
What is Salesforce dev? Is it webapps, but using Salesforce framework instead of RoR or Django?
Salesforce dev has evolved heavily in the last 10 years. Nowadays, depending on the project, you can be working on integrations most of the time, complex automations, and/or front end development through the Lightning Web Components framework. Last project I did a fair amount of work integrating Salesforce with AWS, using Lambda to talk to other services. It was pretty fun!
CTO here, but I built the first bits of our SF setup. It’s essentially a fully cloud hosted rapid development environment that gives you a database and ways to visualise and do crud on this. For line of business stuff this can be really powerful. As a dev, it’s mostly around gluing the bits between and around the key crud actions and doing meta presentation and interface stuff.
It's usually a soupy mix of salesforce API integration work and wading through tons and tons of programmery-looking user interfaces.
It's not hard, but it requires an incredible amount of overhead to first understand various different salesforce specific concepts and then understand the various different broken workflows your company has adopted using those concepts.
It's not hard, but it requires an incredible amount of overhead to first understand various different salesforce specific concepts and then understand the various different broken workflows your company has adopted using those concepts.
These are sweet rates. How do you get your foot in the door for such work? Is there a way to apprentice for it, I don't think I would need much time to get up to speed, I did some minor SF work but nothing that would qualify me for such projects.
Do you want to do it as an independent or with a consulting firm?
If independent, go to Trailhead.com setup an account and start getting some badges (there's a lot for Apex)/ developer certifications (Platform Dev I is a good one). They're kind of a pain, but relatively straightforward and are a good, in ecosystem, way to show prospects you know what Salesforce is.
If you want to work for a firm and have development experience, find a Salesforce consulting firm you like, and see if they'll hire developers who don't know Salesforce. Many will since Salesforce devs can be hard to find.
Working on Salesforce can get a bit wonky at times (like any platform), but the primary back language (Apex) is a Java derivative and will be vary familiar to anyone with Java or C# experience. Front end dev work uses web components which are similar to react. Overall I like it since the platform takes care of a lot of boilerplate and lets me focus on solving the actual business problems. My email is in my profile if anyone wants to reach out and talk about it more.
If independent, go to Trailhead.com setup an account and start getting some badges (there's a lot for Apex)/ developer certifications (Platform Dev I is a good one). They're kind of a pain, but relatively straightforward and are a good, in ecosystem, way to show prospects you know what Salesforce is.
If you want to work for a firm and have development experience, find a Salesforce consulting firm you like, and see if they'll hire developers who don't know Salesforce. Many will since Salesforce devs can be hard to find.
Working on Salesforce can get a bit wonky at times (like any platform), but the primary back language (Apex) is a Java derivative and will be vary familiar to anyone with Java or C# experience. Front end dev work uses web components which are similar to react. Overall I like it since the platform takes care of a lot of boilerplate and lets me focus on solving the actual business problems. My email is in my profile if anyone wants to reach out and talk about it more.
> nothing that would qualify me for such projects
In my experience on the client side of a contracting relationship, that doesn't seem to give the agencies pause at all...
(As a sometimes consultant, though, I'd never bid on a project I couldn't confidently do.)
In my experience on the client side of a contracting relationship, that doesn't seem to give the agencies pause at all...
(As a sometimes consultant, though, I'd never bid on a project I couldn't confidently do.)
And from my experience on the "agency" side, it's at most a minor speedbump.
Client wants us to do what? Oh, I found some tutorials online and there's a lot of StackOverflow posts on the topic. Also, Jim says he did something kinda like that about 5 years ago and thinks he still remembers some of it. Let's SWAG it at $200k estimate for T&M and see if they bite.
In the 5 years I worked at an engineering services (embedded systems) company, I remember exactly ONE project we didn't bid on and that's because I kept saying over and over that we'd lose our shirt on it if we even tried.
Client wants us to do what? Oh, I found some tutorials online and there's a lot of StackOverflow posts on the topic. Also, Jim says he did something kinda like that about 5 years ago and thinks he still remembers some of it. Let's SWAG it at $200k estimate for T&M and see if they bite.
In the 5 years I worked at an engineering services (embedded systems) company, I remember exactly ONE project we didn't bid on and that's because I kept saying over and over that we'd lose our shirt on it if we even tried.
These are the rates that the agencies certified by salesforce as “platinum” “gold” etc charge their customers. One idea is to start by working for one of those agencies, figure out how the system works, how salesforce refers them to their customers, etc and then when you feel like you have enough connections start your own agency to charge those rates.
I tailor my price quite a bit based on what I want. At my best, I feel I'm worth about $200/hour. But I like to work with very early stage companies, and they rarely can afford that. Plus, I've entered into a stage of my life where I just find it hard to really push myself. I like having a relaxing job that I don't need to think too hard about, i.e. I don't really feel like being worth $200/hour. So these days I've been varying between $50-75/hour.
Don't think about how hard you work. Think about how much longer the young inexperienced person would have to work hard to match your results. Think about how much time you dnt spend on mistakes on the way to completion, and bake that multiplier into your rate.
Very true, that's a great way to think about it.
This resonated with me, thank you for writing this.
Honestly I get this. I was charging $175-200/hr for years, 2-5 hours/week on top of my full-time dev job. Now I've taken easier gigs for $90/hr, and do ~10 hours/week on top of my EM job and it feels 10x better.
You're going to get wildly different answers from people who
1) Contracting for the same company all the time (common with people outside the US contracting 40 hrs/week with a US company). These hourly rates will be much lower
2) Contracting for many different companies. These hourly rates are much higher because you need to budget for idle time, searching for your next contract, etc.
1) Contracting for the same company all the time (common with people outside the US contracting 40 hrs/week with a US company). These hourly rates will be much lower
2) Contracting for many different companies. These hourly rates are much higher because you need to budget for idle time, searching for your next contract, etc.
As contracting blends into consulting, you can easily get into a situation where your on-the-clock time is very valuable but you're not actually on-the-clock all that much. It doesn't mean you're not doing anything but you may be writing/speaking/researching/etc. for "free."
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Is $125/hr for 8 hours a day 5 days a week at a corporation (in lieu of salary) competitive?
What's the yearly rate? If you take 3 weeks/year of vacation (standard PTO for a full-time employee in the US), that's $245,000 cash comp. Excluding the SV/HN outliers, that is an extremely good salary for even a senior developer.
Until very recently Amazon's cash comp was capped at $160k. Startups lean very heavily on perks and paper stock that is worth nothing 95% of the time. Wider industry (banks, mom/pop shops, design firms, etc) will top out at high 100k/low 200k and usually don't have bonuses more than 3-5% of salary and almost never offer stock.
Until very recently Amazon's cash comp was capped at $160k. Startups lean very heavily on perks and paper stock that is worth nothing 95% of the time. Wider industry (banks, mom/pop shops, design firms, etc) will top out at high 100k/low 200k and usually don't have bonuses more than 3-5% of salary and almost never offer stock.
> that is an extremely good salary for even a senior developer.
Is there any kind of "outlier" there with like... it's good for a senior developer but not a principal/architect level developer?
I'm just curious why the poll on this post has people saying they are making $150-$300/hr... Are they "lying" and it isn't steady 40 hour a week pay?
Is there any kind of "outlier" there with like... it's good for a senior developer but not a principal/architect level developer?
I'm just curious why the poll on this post has people saying they are making $150-$300/hr... Are they "lying" and it isn't steady 40 hour a week pay?
If you’re quite experienced in a certain tech (nothing special, for example just Rails) 150+ is quite doable even subcontracting or on long 6mos+ engagements where you don’t worry much about finding clients
I subcontracted for about 6mos with a late stage startup at closer to the 100/hr rate, then negotiated up to closer to 150 for the next 6
I wasn’t doing anything special, literally just another dev on a given team just without benefits and without having to attend company events or having a boss
And this was my first ever contracting engagement too (was all fulltime before that)
I subcontracted for about 6mos with a late stage startup at closer to the 100/hr rate, then negotiated up to closer to 150 for the next 6
I wasn’t doing anything special, literally just another dev on a given team just without benefits and without having to attend company events or having a boss
And this was my first ever contracting engagement too (was all fulltime before that)
Architect and developer are very different roles, you can be good at one and terrible at the other. And honestly it's going to be hard for you to convince me that a quarter million a year is not a good cash comp for any level of developer.
I don't think anybody is lying but if your first reaction is to compare consulting/contracting engagements with W2 FTE salaries you're just in for a bad time. They're just too different. $300/hr does not immediately correlate to $600k/yr (in fact it almost never does).
I don't think anybody is lying but if your first reaction is to compare consulting/contracting engagements with W2 FTE salaries you're just in for a bad time. They're just too different. $300/hr does not immediately correlate to $600k/yr (in fact it almost never does).
If you go solely for the true contracting, long term staff aug type engagements then you can completely fill your pipeline and it correlates well
You’ll need to worry about finding new clients at most twice a year, and can easily find gigs through recruiters or agencies if you don’t wanna do your own marketing
Granted it doesn’t pay as well - low risk low reward
You’ll need to worry about finding new clients at most twice a year, and can easily find gigs through recruiters or agencies if you don’t wanna do your own marketing
Granted it doesn’t pay as well - low risk low reward
Based on my experience as a Canadian who has done the 40-hour week "contracting" thing (basically they were too lazy to set up Canadian payroll), I'd say definitely!
Yes 125 CAD/ 40 hours a week "Contracting" is very doable in Canada. Especially for a USA company.
For the Europeans feeling US numbers are unattainable: I'm on
£1100/day in London with about 8 years devops/cloud/IaaS experience
That is very difficult to achieve though. Most contracts through recruiters top out at £700 or so in DevOps and Cloud and it’s tough to go direct with large businesses for consultancy type rates.
It sounds as though you did it by combining the skill set with an enterprise app and negotiated hard by owning that niche?
Despite your deserved success, UK contracting rates are on average poor compared to east coast and west coast US.
It sounds as though you did it by combining the skill set with an enterprise app and negotiated hard by owning that niche?
Despite your deserved success, UK contracting rates are on average poor compared to east coast and west coast US.
I have been in consulting for several years and then back to permanent positions.
What advice do you have for people who are happy to do technical work but find too stressful (in terms of 'people skills') to manage clients and the networking side of sourcing clients?
What advice do you have for people who are happy to do technical work but find too stressful (in terms of 'people skills') to manage clients and the networking side of sourcing clients?
In terms of networking: I get all my clients from recruiters reaching out to me LinkedIn. I've "SEO"d my profile to make sure all keywords (and every variation) for the tech I specialise is in my profile.
In terms of making money without being in a supervisory role: Become really good at operating / devopsing niche enterprise software. Try and specialise in software where:
* There aren't many users (and therefore few competing specialists)
* The users are large, rich enterprises
* It's "legacy" and therefore the pool of competing specialists is shrinking (but importantly the pool of customers is shrinking at a slower rate than the pool of specialists)
* It's complicated
* The software provides enough value to its users such that paying an incredibly expensive contractor to look after it is much cheaper than not using the software and having to pay the salaries of the dozens/hundreds of jobs the software automates away.
In terms of making money without being in a supervisory role: Become really good at operating / devopsing niche enterprise software. Try and specialise in software where:
* There aren't many users (and therefore few competing specialists)
* The users are large, rich enterprises
* It's "legacy" and therefore the pool of competing specialists is shrinking (but importantly the pool of customers is shrinking at a slower rate than the pool of specialists)
* It's complicated
* The software provides enough value to its users such that paying an incredibly expensive contractor to look after it is much cheaper than not using the software and having to pay the salaries of the dozens/hundreds of jobs the software automates away.
We’re talking about ERP systems now? Just the server to run those things on costs more than your monthly rate :)
Find someone to pimp you out for 25-50%.
Standard rate is 30% for placement of permanent positions (e.g. recruiters) and 10% for contract.
30% for how long though?
10% seems low for a UK recruitment agency placing contractors in software dev or similar fields unless we're talking about relatively long engagements and the recruiter fees continue throughout.
10% seems low for a UK recruitment agency placing contractors in software dev or similar fields unless we're talking about relatively long engagements and the recruiter fees continue throughout.
I've seen the following in action:
1. Recruiter sources a direct hire. At hire they're paid 30% of one year's salary, and if the hire is still there 30/60/90 days later, they keep the money.
2. 10% finders fee for fixed-price contract to a contractor (paid by the contractor, not the company)
3. Company employs someone, who is then billed out to another company as staff augmentation / contract. Markup varies widely but ranges from 2-200% and in my experience is inversely proportional to the quality of the person doing the work.
1. Recruiter sources a direct hire. At hire they're paid 30% of one year's salary, and if the hire is still there 30/60/90 days later, they keep the money.
2. 10% finders fee for fixed-price contract to a contractor (paid by the contractor, not the company)
3. Company employs someone, who is then billed out to another company as staff augmentation / contract. Markup varies widely but ranges from 2-200% and in my experience is inversely proportional to the quality of the person doing the work.
How’ve you managed that? I’m a test engineer in the Bay Area but when I move back to the UK, if I can’t carry on with my current role, I’ll go into contracting. I see rates up to £700 but was really aiming for £500 myself. I also have 8 years experience. Any tricks you’ve found on breaking four figures a day?!
Is that inside or outside ir35? This is CTO-Head Of level pay for a contractor in london. Unless you work in a hedge-fund, in which case that is attainable even as a IC
Inside sadly, but my previous contract was 950 outside.
How has IR35 treated you? By this I mean, how have things changed for you?
Well I negotiated a 150+ bump in rate for the 1100 contract to offset the IR35 taxes as my current contract is inside IR35, but it's still a net loss for me compared to my previous 950/day outside contract. At 1100, my total tax burdern is 49% (that's total, not marginal!)
> my total tax burdern is 49% (that total, not marginal!)
This is insane. FTE + contracting put me at something like 300-325k USD for 2021 and under 15% effective tax rate, and targeting similar on ~40k less for 2022
This is insane. FTE + contracting put me at something like 300-325k USD for 2021 and under 15% effective tax rate, and targeting similar on ~40k less for 2022
It's partly because the IR35 rules that keep getting mentioned for those of us in the UK are such a scam.
They were originally supposed to stop people pretending to be a contractor while actually working like any other employee just to get favourable tax treatment. There were quite a few people abusing that loophole previously.
But the rules recently changed so that now big clients are responsible for determining whether a contractor is a disguised employee or not instead of the contractor themselves. This is supposed to be assessed for each specific engagement but in the real world big clients don't like risk so they usually insist that anyone conceivably caught by the IR35 rules must work through an "umbrella" company. The end client pays the umbrella and the umbrella employs (that is, actual legal and tax employment) the contractor. This guarantees that the end client isn't accidentally working with a disguised employee so they don't end up with a nasty unexpected tax bill later.
The problem with this is that the umbrella company will take a small cut and will also then deduct all of the costs for both an employee and a large employer from the rate they receive from the end client before paying out the rest to the contractor. So as the contractor your rate ends up covering not only the taxes you'd pay for an equivalent salaried employment position (which is what IR35 was supposed to cause) but also a big chunk extra for employer taxes and other statutory payments (which is explicitly not how IR35 gigs are supposed to work but it's almost completely universal in the industry and the government seems to be in no hurry to do anything about it) plus a small extra fee for the umbrella company's profits.
This is how you get the huge proportion of your headline rate turning into costs that ukoki described. You can't think of that rate as being comparable to other payments like an employee's salary or real business-to-business sales (including true outside IR35 contract or freelance work). Working via an umbrella is actually worse than all of them. But if you want gigs with big clients who have risk averse legal teams (but I repeat myself) it's the game you have to play now.
They were originally supposed to stop people pretending to be a contractor while actually working like any other employee just to get favourable tax treatment. There were quite a few people abusing that loophole previously.
But the rules recently changed so that now big clients are responsible for determining whether a contractor is a disguised employee or not instead of the contractor themselves. This is supposed to be assessed for each specific engagement but in the real world big clients don't like risk so they usually insist that anyone conceivably caught by the IR35 rules must work through an "umbrella" company. The end client pays the umbrella and the umbrella employs (that is, actual legal and tax employment) the contractor. This guarantees that the end client isn't accidentally working with a disguised employee so they don't end up with a nasty unexpected tax bill later.
The problem with this is that the umbrella company will take a small cut and will also then deduct all of the costs for both an employee and a large employer from the rate they receive from the end client before paying out the rest to the contractor. So as the contractor your rate ends up covering not only the taxes you'd pay for an equivalent salaried employment position (which is what IR35 was supposed to cause) but also a big chunk extra for employer taxes and other statutory payments (which is explicitly not how IR35 gigs are supposed to work but it's almost completely universal in the industry and the government seems to be in no hurry to do anything about it) plus a small extra fee for the umbrella company's profits.
This is how you get the huge proportion of your headline rate turning into costs that ukoki described. You can't think of that rate as being comparable to other payments like an employee's salary or real business-to-business sales (including true outside IR35 contract or freelance work). Working via an umbrella is actually worse than all of them. But if you want gigs with big clients who have risk averse legal teams (but I repeat myself) it's the game you have to play now.
Yep with the inside-IR35 contracts I need to charge a premium, but even the +20% premium I charged with my current contract is not close to covering my extra costs.
I'm also strongly incentivised to do stuff like timing long inside-I35 contracts (eg 12 months) so they straddle two tax years so that the marginal tax rate in each year only approaches "very unpleasant" and doesn't reach "extremely unpleasant". And with the remaining time either do outside-IR35 contracts if I can find them, or just stop working and enjoy my time and money because at 70%+ marginal tax rates the motivation really starts to dissapear.
I'm also strongly incentivised to do stuff like timing long inside-I35 contracts (eg 12 months) so they straddle two tax years so that the marginal tax rate in each year only approaches "very unpleasant" and doesn't reach "extremely unpleasant". And with the remaining time either do outside-IR35 contracts if I can find them, or just stop working and enjoy my time and money because at 70%+ marginal tax rates the motivation really starts to dissapear.
These threads make it very obvious how different the compulsory contributions towards the state & social safety nets are among the high earners in Europe and the USA.
You’d cap out around this in Norway too; in fact you’d probably break 50% and that’s before considering taxes on the consumption your post-tax money is used for.
You’d cap out around this in Norway too; in fact you’d probably break 50% and that’s before considering taxes on the consumption your post-tax money is used for.
Ethical question? Do you think that's reasonable given tax rates of 12%, 22%, etc for salaried roles?
Is there something that makes your contract based employment significantly different to a salaried role?
Is there something that makes your contract based employment significantly different to a salaried role?
More than half of that was salaried W2 income. The rest is/was taxed as regular income. There's no capital gains or tax shenanigans. It's all regular income with deductions and credits.
Whilst high, not sure it makes any sense to compare the systems.
It's hard to imagine any system where half (or more) of your total earnings being taken is justified. I have no problem paying taxes, and mine could be noticeably higher without any negative day-to-day impact, for sure. I think there's a lot of FUD and fear-mongering around marginal tax rates but if your total tax bill is 50%+ something is very wrong.
It's (subjectively) justified if there's a lot more social support – for example, some of the Nordic countries.
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I think this chart [0] should automatically update with the data from here, but let's see if it works.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTcsaHx997nt...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTcsaHx997nt...
Thanks! Note that the x axis isn't fully in the correct order.
thanks, fixed. Also Google seems to cache aggressively, so it doesn't update even if I edit a cell.
How does this work? Is it populating a spreadsheet with xml?
Yes you can do importhtml in a spreadsheet and find the tables or lists so I just used that and then some hacks vlookups to put into a table with the correct ordering
I can't edit it now, but of course it's ambiguous as to where the boundaries lie so please take the upper limits as EXCLUSIVE.
e.g. if you charge exactly $100, rather pick $100-$150 and NOT $70-$100.
e.g. if you charge exactly $100, rather pick $100-$150 and NOT $70-$100.
I'm not currently billing for contract work, but when I was my formula was:
Some years I was 105% billable but those are brutal years and I'm sure my life will be shorter for it.
rate = YearlyGoal / 1700
Some years I was 105% billable but those are brutal years and I'm sure my life will be shorter for it.
You must have been pretty good at billing every single hour you spend on your clients.
I was once told that it's unwise to expect to bill more than 50% of the time I spend, so I've been sticking close to $target_income / 1000 for the last few years. The actual ratio of billable to unbillable hours probably depends a lot on what kind of contracts you get and what type of work you do.
I was once told that it's unwise to expect to bill more than 50% of the time I spend, so I've been sticking close to $target_income / 1000 for the last few years. The actual ratio of billable to unbillable hours probably depends a lot on what kind of contracts you get and what type of work you do.
I will piggyback on the thread to ask something that I've been thinking about contracting/freelancing.
Is contracting an ideal job for people who don't work well in teams? By "don't work well", I don't necessarily mean rude or intolerable people.
I mean more like, doing all the work on your own, going out of your way to work on something, working without being told, etc.
Also, how to start your career as a developer on contract?
Is contracting an ideal job for people who don't work well in teams? By "don't work well", I don't necessarily mean rude or intolerable people.
I mean more like, doing all the work on your own, going out of your way to work on something, working without being told, etc.
Also, how to start your career as a developer on contract?
I'd say the opposite especially if you're thinking of the higher rates. While it can vary from project to project in general customer ready to pay decent rates to contractors usually expects more skills, experience, independence, teamwork, soft skills etc. While not always it's often like a team of mercenaries that you still need to have an idea how to make best use of them and lead in the right way.
You need contacts/referrals to start. If you don't have those, you're going to end up getting very low-paid shit work for shit people.
Nearly half of my contracts have been former employers, or companies where a former manager/coworker was and got me an interview. The rest have been referrals from those companies. Cold outreach or inbound is a small minority (<10% for sure).
Nearly half of my contracts have been former employers, or companies where a former manager/coworker was and got me an interview. The rest have been referrals from those companies. Cold outreach or inbound is a small minority (<10% for sure).
as for how to start there are also contracting companies like eg Toptal with decent amount of projects from variety of companies from startups to enterprises and you're setting your own rate - probably not above the median but still good enough to start.
It’s all over the map.
Sometimes you’ll just be a pair of hands and left alone to deliver your your piece.
Sometimes you’ll basically be a “disguised employee” with all of the same politics and team dynamics.
Sometimes you’ll be bought in as the experienced pair of hands to fix a problem and need to get deep into the team dynamics.
Generally, contractors are a little more lonesome than permanent employees, but it’s dependent on the project.
Sometimes you’ll just be a pair of hands and left alone to deliver your your piece.
Sometimes you’ll basically be a “disguised employee” with all of the same politics and team dynamics.
Sometimes you’ll be bought in as the experienced pair of hands to fix a problem and need to get deep into the team dynamics.
Generally, contractors are a little more lonesome than permanent employees, but it’s dependent on the project.
After a few decades as a technologist (across different roles from web dev. to tech lead to project/product mgr to architect, etc.)...now, the only thing i want to do is: "...be a pair of hands and left alone to deliver your your piece..." and "...be bought in as the experienced pair of hands to fix a problem..." And, nothing else. :-)
Well, could be. You do need to be self-driven, and also be able to see the bigger picture so you actually help your clients.
I think some distance is helpful, too. Some clients can be really dysfunctional in the sense that they will spend all day talking about things in meetings, and never do anything about it, probably because they're not comfortable bringing about the changes. That's why they hired you. You're the change agent.
But communication is important. There's no boss to set the expectations or clear up misunderstandings for you, you need to do that yourself, carefully. If you think you'll find it difficult to bother explaining things to people, then you probably need to contract on something where you can communicate through a version control system.
I think some distance is helpful, too. Some clients can be really dysfunctional in the sense that they will spend all day talking about things in meetings, and never do anything about it, probably because they're not comfortable bringing about the changes. That's why they hired you. You're the change agent.
But communication is important. There's no boss to set the expectations or clear up misunderstandings for you, you need to do that yourself, carefully. If you think you'll find it difficult to bother explaining things to people, then you probably need to contract on something where you can communicate through a version control system.
I’m an accountant, not developer, but in my case I found freelancing much preferable to working on a team.
I don’t think I’m “bad” at working on a team, in that my team members would be happy to have me on the team, but I personally found it stressful to navigate multiple bosses depending on the project, having to rely on junior teammates that I would not have picked to hire, etc. I am much happier working with clients where I get to decide how the work gets done. Even though I still interface and meet with lots of people, it’s different and much more comfortable!
I don’t think I’m “bad” at working on a team, in that my team members would be happy to have me on the team, but I personally found it stressful to navigate multiple bosses depending on the project, having to rely on junior teammates that I would not have picked to hire, etc. I am much happier working with clients where I get to decide how the work gets done. Even though I still interface and meet with lots of people, it’s different and much more comfortable!
I did side consulting at $70 for someone getting a business off the ground.
After the company was more up and running, I switched to a flat $1,000 per day to avoid being asked to do too many "small" tasks.
After the company was more up and running, I switched to a flat $1,000 per day to avoid being asked to do too many "small" tasks.
I don't actually have a flat rate, I charge anywhere between $65/hr to $250/hr depending on what I'm doing, where I'm doing it, who I'm working with and most importantly - how exhausting/annoying my client is.
Exactly. Fixed rate is not a good idea. Not every job is the same. For instance, if you have to do intervention on highly critical system with risk of reputation loss on any error, you should charge more.
And on the same note, I often work with charities and educational orgs who I just don't feel like charging a high rate to, because I want to help with their work.
This is useful, but it is HIGHLY dependent on the services being offered. $300 for some work can be a steal, and $40 can be overpriced.
The plumber I called recently in the Austin metro area charges $150/hr.
An electrician finishes up a wiring job for a lawyer and presents her with an invoice.
The lawyer looks at it and says, "Wow, I don't even charge that much per hour and I'm a lawyer"
The electrician says, "Tell me about it. I didn't charge that much when I was a lawyer either"
The lawyer looks at it and says, "Wow, I don't even charge that much per hour and I'm a lawyer"
The electrician says, "Tell me about it. I didn't charge that much when I was a lawyer either"
Two confounding factors:
1. billed hours in the trades don't include travel to or from the worksite; if the plumber is 30 minutes from you and the job takes an hour, they're already down to $75/hr.
2. software contracting can be done from anywhere. You can live in rural Kentucky and charge a high rate. But plumbers and electricians in rural Kentucky probably aren't charging $150/hr for house calls.
1. billed hours in the trades don't include travel to or from the worksite; if the plumber is 30 minutes from you and the job takes an hour, they're already down to $75/hr.
2. software contracting can be done from anywhere. You can live in rural Kentucky and charge a high rate. But plumbers and electricians in rural Kentucky probably aren't charging $150/hr for house calls.
I assume your plumber isn't getting 8 hours per day though. A lot of time in wasted in commuting and paperwork (I assume).
I’ve interacted with probably close to 50 contractors of various trades for my house. They all insist on physically coming to give an estimate and a good chunk end up completely ghosting you. Most of them could have done an estimate over zoom -- definitely an interesting bunch of folks.
I found thumbtack to be pretty good for small jobs.
I found thumbtack to be pretty good for small jobs.
The reason for the physical visit is because a lot of trades work is the computer equivalent of "hey, I just want to get Okta retrofitted to this web app", where that the web app is 25,000 lines of php and perl written at various different times by developers of varying skill levels.
Ghosting is because they don't need your work right now and are kind of dumb or ADD with bad "back office". The ones who don't ghost want onsite estimates too, because they want to size you up as a legit client, and make a sales impression. (Smooth talking white guys for the estimate, Latin Americans for the work, possibly day laborers not employees)
Small ones like leaky pipe or drywall, when the owner (or sole proprietor) is the laborer, they just come out and do on first visit.
Small ones like leaky pipe or drywall, when the owner (or sole proprietor) is the laborer, they just come out and do on first visit.
That seems to be changing. I've had a couple give me an estimate over text/email and when I ask if they want to come look at it, they are obviously reluctant to do so.
They're probably also being ghosted by their prospects and don't want to waste the drive time.
They're probably also being ghosted by their prospects and don't want to waste the drive time.
My neighbor will have 4-5 contractors come over to quote a job. Half the time he ends up doing it himself.
I can't decide if the plumber should be charging more or less. It's hard to put a value on not having to go outside to an outhouse.
Are they dealing with blackwater or copper or pex? Because any fool can do pex and soldering honestly doesn’t take much skill, and no amount is too much for dealing with some stranger’s blackwater.
I get the not having to part, but I wish it was acceptable to have one in our backyards.
If it’s well built, they’ll be less odourful than a standard toilet/bathroom by drawing air away from where it’s the worst.
If it’s well built, they’ll be less odourful than a standard toilet/bathroom by drawing air away from where it’s the worst.
In my country in Europe the guys who put bathroom tiles make more hourly than java developers.
As he should; tiling is highly skilled labor -- closer to applied art than construction, really -- and destroys your body.
We work with Java devs in the Balkans and $70-130/hr is normal.
Where in Europe do tile guys make more than that? (I’m assuming that Java rates have some global or at least EU stickiness)
Where in Europe do tile guys make more than that? (I’m assuming that Java rates have some global or at least EU stickiness)
Similar in Chicago. Electricans as well
I don't even do hourly billing any more - after seeing how miserable many of my friends in the legal world were despite their high salaries and billable rates.
If you can't capture a percentage of the value you're generating, you're not properly focused on generating value. This is what really turned around my ARR on advising. Not true for all levels of advising/consulting, but at the executive/founder level this was the big change.
If you can't capture a percentage of the value you're generating, you're not properly focused on generating value. This is what really turned around my ARR on advising. Not true for all levels of advising/consulting, but at the executive/founder level this was the big change.
Without location (or "remote" specified), this is almost 100% useless. Someone who is top 1% developer in Sudan, working for Sudanese companies will earn way less than even a mediocre freelance developer in a highly developed country.
That same Sudanese developer might be convinced to start working remotely if they saw how little they were paid in comparison (assuming national pride / valuing civil service isn't a strong factor).
I never really got this reasoning.
How can you honestly be “best of the best” but be dumb enough to ignore remote work. Something you almost actively have to be doing these days and which, for this hypothetical person, has an insane payoff.
This person is supposedly both super smart but at the same time can’t even see the fruit that’s so low-hanging that it’s literally smacking him in the face.
How can you honestly be “best of the best” but be dumb enough to ignore remote work. Something you almost actively have to be doing these days and which, for this hypothetical person, has an insane payoff.
This person is supposedly both super smart but at the same time can’t even see the fruit that’s so low-hanging that it’s literally smacking him in the face.
"dumb enough"? Not everyone wants to work remotely. Some people prefer to work with other humans in a physical location. Doesn't make them smarter or dumber, just a preference.
Not sure. I'm not "best of the best" but I work remote because Americans pay twice as much as Europeans.
Given that the currency is in USD, I assumed a US context was implied.
I don't see why its presumed to be USD specifically. Could be any sort of Dollar, arguably. As far as I know, there are more than ten countries using some sort of "Dollar" which uses the same symbol ("$") for their currency.
But yeah, probably safe to assume USD, just playing devils advocate I guess.
Even so, on US-based platforms, like reddit or HN, USD is usually used as a "convertion unit" rather than a implication of location, I've found.
But yeah, probably safe to assume USD, just playing devils advocate I guess.
Even so, on US-based platforms, like reddit or HN, USD is usually used as a "convertion unit" rather than a implication of location, I've found.
Now that the euro is at parity (more or less) it might not be the case.
I only moonlight, but my rates are dependent on non-profit status, locality, and size of the company. The rate I charge Fortune 500 companies ($150/hr) is about twice that I charge the local library ($80/hr).
Non-profit just means money goes to employees and managers, not investors. Focus more on the social value of the work the business does, and how fairly emooyees are paid, not legal tax status.
If you're moonlighting Fortune 500 companies will rarely talk to you directly. So my guess is that you are contracting with a company that is either directly contracting with the Fortune 500 company or is itself a subcontractor. The $150 per hour that makes its way to you is probably seeing a few levels of attrition :-)!
I moonlight behind an LLC for exactly this reason. I got an F500 client a long time ago and I was nervous that they'd figure out that my Sole Proprietorship was just me (don't even remember why I thought that), so one night I went to the Secretary of State website and registered an LLC and once that was done, got a tax EIN from the IRS.
Completely unnecessary at the time, it turned out, but over the years I've found that a lot of people are more comfortable working with Joe Blow LLC than just Joe Blow.
Completely unnecessary at the time, it turned out, but over the years I've found that a lot of people are more comfortable working with Joe Blow LLC than just Joe Blow.
Reading this post and the linked one, TIL I should charge way more.
Usually the case. Patio11 wrote about this forever ago: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2006/08/14/you-can-probably-stand-...
People always undercharge. Any software consulting agency will charge min $125/hr and most around $175/hr.
When I was in business school 15 years ago I interned for a Big 4 consultancy, paid $40/hr (hourly on an $80K assumed salary).
Rather than do things by hand like many MBA’s, I wrote some scripts to make it easy to create lots of Excel files (can’t remember if I used a DB, I don’t think so).
Client wanted to keep me on during the year, and my employer never had that come up and didn’t know what to do. So client offered me $100/hr and said I could use a different one-guy firm as my employer to avoid new vendor set up.
They offered me $100/hr. Being an MBA student I figured I was being undervalued (even at 2.5X, as I was doing both engineering and MBA BS). My manager very firmly but nicely said $100 was an excellent rate. I agreed and did 10-15 hours a week, mostly training 2 employees at the consultancy how to do what I did and move away from my non-standard scripts.
Sometimes you’re offered the right rate upfront!
Rather than do things by hand like many MBA’s, I wrote some scripts to make it easy to create lots of Excel files (can’t remember if I used a DB, I don’t think so).
Client wanted to keep me on during the year, and my employer never had that come up and didn’t know what to do. So client offered me $100/hr and said I could use a different one-guy firm as my employer to avoid new vendor set up.
They offered me $100/hr. Being an MBA student I figured I was being undervalued (even at 2.5X, as I was doing both engineering and MBA BS). My manager very firmly but nicely said $100 was an excellent rate. I agreed and did 10-15 hours a week, mostly training 2 employees at the consultancy how to do what I did and move away from my non-standard scripts.
Sometimes you’re offered the right rate upfront!
And charging more also often has the side effect that you'll be taken more seriously. People are more likely to listen to you if you charge more because they'll place more value in your work.
It's a shame that you can't do a multi part poll. I'd love to know people's rates _and_ their years of experience, language, industry, etc.
84.7/hr
15 years experience
Polyglot, full stack, DevOps, and Linux Sysmin
Industry: Tech
Area: Hampton Roads, Virginia
I bet you could raise your rate quite a bit. I'm 20y exp mostly typescript and front ends these days but very much a polyglot background and I run up and down the stack all the time. I charge $225, which tbh I feel is low for my level of expertise. I'm based in NYC but that shouldn't matter as much these days.
The Stackoverflow Survey gives a great insight i to these metrics: https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2022/
'Students' have 4.86 years of professional coding experience according to the survey, which is just weird. Given that, I wouldn't trust the data much.
Many compsci students I know are now doing internships in their freshmen year. By the time their seniors they're often balancing school with some other sort of ongoing program
I'm sure that number is inflated, but there's still some truth to it
I'm sure that number is inflated, but there's still some truth to it
For it to be actual full time experience in a 5 year program, almost every student would have to work full time their whole college to get to that number. I worked summers and almost full time in my masters, which was above average for my college, and I don't know if I got to equivalent two years full-time.
It is possible people mistook "professional experience" for "experience", but that still takes the data into question.
It is possible people mistook "professional experience" for "experience", but that still takes the data into question.
Yeah fair enough. Clearly this is most likely just a direct result of job postings over-relying on "minimum X years of experience, no exception" clauses. If truths didn't get stretched, very few people would ever qualify for tech jobs haha
Hey now, anyone can be a student for life.
I think there’s successful business (essentially, niche glassdoor) for this. Someone please make it.
For more explanation: https://unvalidated-ideas.vadosware.io/editions/012
For more explanation: https://unvalidated-ideas.vadosware.io/editions/012
A Blind-like site for contracting would be awesome too
(Blind is a site where devs mainly discuss salaries)
(Blind is a site where devs mainly discuss salaries)
That’s a GREAT idea. If someone doesn’t pick this idea up (please tell me if you do so I can at least save myself time!) I’ll put something out next week.
A good rule of thumb is to take your annual salary and divide by 1000. That's your hourly rate.
If you make $100K, charge $100/hr - which if fully booked is like $200K if you did it full time. That accounts for your overhead, your pipeline not always being full, etc.
If you make $100K, charge $100/hr - which if fully booked is like $200K if you did it full time. That accounts for your overhead, your pipeline not always being full, etc.
The overhead on an employee is more like 20–30%, not 100%.
Separately, the value of a contractor is different than the value of an employee, so why should the prices be equivalent (even taking overhead into account). As a contractor, you're not only help the client with a project but you're also saving them the time, effort, and risk of bringing someone in full-time... Why not charge for that?
Separately, the value of a contractor is different than the value of an employee, so why should the prices be equivalent (even taking overhead into account). As a contractor, you're not only help the client with a project but you're also saving them the time, effort, and risk of bringing someone in full-time... Why not charge for that?
> The overhead on an employee is more like 20–30%, not 100%.
That's a separate question, and personally I prefer double as a rule of thumb (I've read some studies to support that number) - but 20% is outright wrong. You'd pay 20% for office space rent alone. Employer portion of payroll taxes are 7.65% and health insurance in the group markets is $600/mth. Then add in legal, hardware, software, servers, HR tools, accountants - it adds up fast.
However my point was that it accounts not just for your overhead (remember you have significantly worse economy of scale at 1) but also, and this is critical, your pipeline not always being full. As a contractor you won't always have a job, and you should account for that in your estimation.
> As a contractor, you're not only help the client with a project but you're also saving them the time, effort, and risk of bringing someone in full-time... Why not charge for that?
You are, about double.
Like I said, $100K/yr -> $100/hr is $208K/yr.
This isn't a perfect system, but it's a good rule of thumb.
[1] https://www.iofficecorp.com/blog/space-management-empty-desk
That's a separate question, and personally I prefer double as a rule of thumb (I've read some studies to support that number) - but 20% is outright wrong. You'd pay 20% for office space rent alone. Employer portion of payroll taxes are 7.65% and health insurance in the group markets is $600/mth. Then add in legal, hardware, software, servers, HR tools, accountants - it adds up fast.
However my point was that it accounts not just for your overhead (remember you have significantly worse economy of scale at 1) but also, and this is critical, your pipeline not always being full. As a contractor you won't always have a job, and you should account for that in your estimation.
> As a contractor, you're not only help the client with a project but you're also saving them the time, effort, and risk of bringing someone in full-time... Why not charge for that?
You are, about double.
Like I said, $100K/yr -> $100/hr is $208K/yr.
This isn't a perfect system, but it's a good rule of thumb.
[1] https://www.iofficecorp.com/blog/space-management-empty-desk
I've been doing web dev (react) contracting for 8 months now. First months was 50 and 60/hr, then big, main contract at 100, now 160 as a part time. Quite the learning experience, and goes to show how far confidence will take you.
I remember when I was starting out (~2 years of professional experience at the time) I was contracting as a ROR fullstack developer for a San Francisco startup for $17/h. Local salary in Russia as Java developer before that was around $2.6/h. So that I felt pretty rich doing that.
I remember I used to only bill for like 70% of hours I worked because I felt bad if there was some task that I couldn't implement right away or a bug I had to figure out.
These days my rate is about $60/h working for a US company with 9 years of experience.
I remember I used to only bill for like 70% of hours I worked because I felt bad if there was some task that I couldn't implement right away or a bug I had to figure out.
These days my rate is about $60/h working for a US company with 9 years of experience.
Depends on the length of the contract.
Super short term contracts (measured in hours): $250/hr (though I might raise this after looking at this thread!)
Short term contracts: $200/hr
Longer term contracts: $175/hr
Retainer: $125 a month
I'm not a full-time contractor, though, so these rates are designed so that people and organizations that really need my help (and I generally have some previous relationship with) can get it if they really need it without wasting my time on unimportant projects.
I'm a generalist I design and build software and run teams that do the same (super descriptive, huh?)
Super short term contracts (measured in hours): $250/hr (though I might raise this after looking at this thread!)
Short term contracts: $200/hr
Longer term contracts: $175/hr
Retainer: $125 a month
I'm not a full-time contractor, though, so these rates are designed so that people and organizations that really need my help (and I generally have some previous relationship with) can get it if they really need it without wasting my time on unimportant projects.
I'm a generalist I design and build software and run teams that do the same (super descriptive, huh?)
72€/h (+20% VAT on the invoice). 7+ years of Magento development experience for the local SMB market, Estonia.
Just for reference, Magento is a huge monolithic e-commerce platform (PHP + jQuery + knockoutjs + xml - hello 2012!) that doesn't seem to be very popular amongst the HN crowd. I do it all from the frontend to integrations with ERPs, client tutorials/ handholding, hosting/devops etc etc.
0 marketing, all clients through word of mouth basically. Most follow a similar pattern: larger agency develops some almost working solution over a few years, developers leave and take in-house project specific knowledge with them, client left hanging and agency bills huge amounts for no progress and the relationship sours.
Most end up being long-term clients since the market for Magento devs is horrific, e-commerce never sleeps and the tech keeps on churning. Who wants to do primarily legacy maintenance work, right? To my surprise, it's actually very rewarding because of the close contact with the primary stakeholders.
I manage around 20 billable hours a week, all remote since the beginning. I say manage because having a 2year old run around takes the other 20 to 80. I have way too much work piled up already and yet here I am writing this comment for some reason...
Just for reference, Magento is a huge monolithic e-commerce platform (PHP + jQuery + knockoutjs + xml - hello 2012!) that doesn't seem to be very popular amongst the HN crowd. I do it all from the frontend to integrations with ERPs, client tutorials/ handholding, hosting/devops etc etc.
0 marketing, all clients through word of mouth basically. Most follow a similar pattern: larger agency develops some almost working solution over a few years, developers leave and take in-house project specific knowledge with them, client left hanging and agency bills huge amounts for no progress and the relationship sours.
Most end up being long-term clients since the market for Magento devs is horrific, e-commerce never sleeps and the tech keeps on churning. Who wants to do primarily legacy maintenance work, right? To my surprise, it's actually very rewarding because of the close contact with the primary stakeholders.
I manage around 20 billable hours a week, all remote since the beginning. I say manage because having a 2year old run around takes the other 20 to 80. I have way too much work piled up already and yet here I am writing this comment for some reason...
In 2005 I was doing PLC programming and didn’t even have my degree finished yet. I always quoted $100 per hour and was never turned down. Being that it’s 17 years later and I’d assume most of you have some sort of formal certification then I’d say you’re undervaluing yourself.
Is it still typical to register a business as a contractor and invoice for your hours as an independent? If so you need to add at least 35% just for business overhead.
IMH0
Is it still typical to register a business as a contractor and invoice for your hours as an independent? If so you need to add at least 35% just for business overhead.
IMH0
To clarify. I don’t only mean your own business overhead, as I assume you can operate a basic contracting business for less than 35% of annual earnings. What I mean is that employees cost businesses around a 35% premium for benefits, employee side payroll taxes, liabilities, etc. In actual fact if all my employees were happy to take a 35% pay increase to become contractors I’d bet it’s a good deal for the corporation.
There's probably not a million PLC programmers on Upwork/Fiver/whatever
Another question for freelancers: What's your ratio of deep work to shallow work?
With coding, intensity impacts how long you can work. In the book Deep Work, Cal Newport says that ~4 hours per day of high-intensity focus is about the limit.
So, how many hours do you bill per day on average - and of those hours, what's the breakdown of high-intensity vs. other work?
With coding, intensity impacts how long you can work. In the book Deep Work, Cal Newport says that ~4 hours per day of high-intensity focus is about the limit.
So, how many hours do you bill per day on average - and of those hours, what's the breakdown of high-intensity vs. other work?
I stopped charging hourly, now just monthly retainer.
Making around $800 per hour, depending on the month.
can you elaborate a little more and explain the mechanics of this setup?
I also charge on retainer. I set a dollar amount that makes messing with their stuff worth my time, and then they get to tell me what I'm supposed to do for them that month for those hours. If they don't talk to me, I still get paid. If they go over, then I get an extra hourly rate.
how many hours per month are usually retained?
This is for a part-time gig. I charge a set amount per month up to a max number of hours worked. If I work 1 hour or 10 it doesnt matter. Usually I only work 2.5 hours a month hence the high hourly rate.
1.6 mil a year. That's not too shabby.
I currently charge 65€/hour, which is incredibly low considering that beside doing the fullstack development for their rather complex product. I also do their product development, working with UI/UX designers, doing the devops AND I do first to third level support (basically for free).
Still, I was unable to explain this to the customer, who still sees me as the guy who does some programming. For future companies, I want to move to project based billing (as already mentioned in previous comments) and stop underselling my work. Any recommendation on how I can train pitching myself or good readings are very welcome.
Still, I was unable to explain this to the customer, who still sees me as the guy who does some programming. For future companies, I want to move to project based billing (as already mentioned in previous comments) and stop underselling my work. Any recommendation on how I can train pitching myself or good readings are very welcome.
These $300+ guys must be COBOL programmers
The reason there's a COBOL developer shortage and every shitty company is crying is because they're not actually paying very well. If they were willing to pay that much there would be no problems finding COBOL people.
Yeah I had this misconception as well. These guys are very poorly paid a lot of the time.
$90 per hour remotely for a US company. As a Django developer from the UK this rate is really good for me, plus it is outside IR35. I doubt I'd be able to get this at a UK company.
I used to take 125$/hour but haven't felt the need to take on clients for a while (dayjob is plenty for me).
If I were to joint the hustle again, it wouldn't be at less than 250.
If I were to joint the hustle again, it wouldn't be at less than 250.
I do federal contracting for a parent company and I get billed out around $320-350/hr as far as I can tell. I, of course, only see a fraction of that though =P
For my full-stack AWS/Node/.Net/React/Vue.js contracts I usually charge 90-150€ depending on clients. 7 years of professional experience.
Varies greatly for me. Generally $120, but only because I give good clients a 20% discount, but I'll go down to $60 for work that I really want to do.
I raised $2M by developing a full e2e white-labeled crypto crowdfunding solution as an entrepreneur(as a solo dev anyway), but I make 50$/h as a solo dev for any other side gig. And I took care of everything, from legal, accounting, infra, dev team, marketing, and business. Guess I'm undervalued as an individual and not as a corporation? Take away: incorporate yourself
It's also important to consider the type of company and the type of work done: A single person or small team doing contracting work will have a different (likely smaller) overhead than larger companies. OTOH having more people allows for a wider array of capabilities, or being able to tackle larger projects, or develop internal tools for higher efficiency.
I turned this poll into a chart:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IEfNjs_IoS3K3sG3W3Xh...
Faang still pays better…
But below that contracting beats everything else, assuming you can get a fullish pipeline
But below that contracting beats everything else, assuming you can get a fullish pipeline
Talk about synchronicity, I was just researching this for a gig I got involved with.
Just to be clear, contractor means you get no other benefit but the money they give you per hour worked. And this rate is not inclusive of expenses, taxes, etc...
Just to be clear, contractor means you get no other benefit but the money they give you per hour worked. And this rate is not inclusive of expenses, taxes, etc...
A bit of off-topic, but do you as a contractors have time for personal growth. What I mean, is it possible you will be reading a book on some topics or taking webinar / course whatever and being paid for that?
Why not? Just don't work 40h a week and then you have time.
Visual graph of poll results: https://hw.leftium.com/#/item/32606904
Amounts should be $20-39, $40-69, $70-99 to avoid overlap.
Which continent, which country, which region, which city? Without this information this poll is meaningless.
For those in the US, how much do you all pay for "benefits"? Healthcare, etc...
An FTE will pay anywhere from $200-$1000/mo for single person healthcare (subsidized by the employer. A contractor will pay closer to $1000-2000/mo for similar coverage. Retirement is pretty shit even when company matched, so the numbers are mostly even between contractor and FTE.
The easy solution to this is have a spouse that has a fulltime job and has benefits.
$35 senior front-end / medior backend, EU
costs of living about 2k for essentials
who are these poor souls in the "Under $20" and "$20-$40" range?
I live in KZ, I'm not sure if I'm qualified as a contractor as I mostly work for the same company, but technically I'm contractor. My current rate is around $15. I'm making like 3x of everyone around me, so not really poor.
> so not really poor
I think this highlights an issue with this poll: the potentially huge disparity in cost of living.
Where I live (Western Canada) this is below our minimum wage mandated by law. But renting a single bedroom apartment is also nearing $2000/month.
I think this highlights an issue with this poll: the potentially huge disparity in cost of living.
Where I live (Western Canada) this is below our minimum wage mandated by law. But renting a single bedroom apartment is also nearing $2000/month.
I own single bedroom apartments and my monthly payment is $20 for electricity, water, etc and $10 for Internet. Plus $10 at winter for heating.
Renting single bedroom apartment must be something around $500 here for good apartments and down to $200 if you're not very picky (we don't really use concept of bedroom, we use total number of rooms excluding kitchen, and one-room apartments probably are most popular for renting).
Renting single bedroom apartment must be something around $500 here for good apartments and down to $200 if you're not very picky (we don't really use concept of bedroom, we use total number of rooms excluding kitchen, and one-room apartments probably are most popular for renting).
Me, used to do full-time-style remote contract work for a company in Europe, and my hourly rate was $10/h. Granted it was still good money compared to where I live, but there you go.
Now moved to and working in Europe as a TAC engineer for $18.5/h.
Now moved to and working in Europe as a TAC engineer for $18.5/h.
I remember when I was starting out (~2 years of professional experience at the time) I was contracting as a ROR fullstack developer for a San Francisco startup for $17/h. Local salary in Russia as Java developer before that was around $2.6/h. So that I felt pretty rich doing that.
I remember I used to only bill for like 70% of hours I worked because I felt bad if there was some task that I couldn't implement right away or a bug I had to figure out.
These days my rate is about $60/h working for a US company with 9 years of experience.
I remember I used to only bill for like 70% of hours I worked because I felt bad if there was some task that I couldn't implement right away or a bug I had to figure out.
These days my rate is about $60/h working for a US company with 9 years of experience.
Here in the Czech Republic, ~50 USD is about the top end of consulting firms' hourly rates, at least from the contracts I see (public sector). 40 USD would be very respectable for personal hourly income.
I’m sub-$20. My only work post-graduation (CS) has been a contract with a non-tech org that can’t really afford it. It’s remote, and I currently live in a US state with barely any tech companies.
Me. Someone who has 10 years of experience and I feel absolutely terrible charging companies insane amount of money doing work that I don't feel like provide that much value to society compared to other way more important jobs that are paid way less.
As a result I decided to base my rates on what's the average for my particular position in my country. This way I feel at least a bit less guilty.
As a result I decided to base my rates on what's the average for my particular position in my country. This way I feel at least a bit less guilty.
I live in Argentina and my salary is in that range, the company I work for sell software consultancy services to another company in Europe, and I'm full time dedicated to a single project.
It's a good salary here, though I think some are making more by working directly with clients abroad, but it's difficult to bring your money to the country.
It's a good salary here, though I think some are making more by working directly with clients abroad, but it's difficult to bring your money to the country.
When I worked remotely in Pattaya I met a Russian PHP dev who had been living in Pattaya for half a year. At the time he earned 7 USD per hour through Upwork.
We connected and now we both work for an Aussie company as freelancers (me doing mobile). Now he has a much more reasonable rate at around 40 USD which is quite ok in Malaysia (where he moved to).
We connected and now we both work for an Aussie company as freelancers (me doing mobile). Now he has a much more reasonable rate at around 40 USD which is quite ok in Malaysia (where he moved to).
I did some freelance work for $30 which is matching my current salary, which is actually very high over here (Thailand, iOS developer). I never went all in on freelancing, so it's hard to push for high salaries. Most 'remote' I've found is just within-america-remotely or Europe, etc, as well.
I freelance as well from Thailand (mobile dev), currently at 65 AUD per hour. I do plan to aim for 80 - 100 USD per hour next year, I think it’s possible.
Right I am not saying it is impossible. I am just too comfortable and ingrained working locally for so many years that I don't really feel like jumping out and managing the taxes, visas, and so on that will come with it. I wouldn't do $30 if it was my main work, I just wanted to give one example of someone doing it and why.
Yeah if you do work 100% legal, it could be a hassle. Sadly the current rules in Thailand regarding remote work make 100% legal working quite difficult if you're a 1-person company.
But if you setup an offshore company in another country (e.g. Seychelles) you pay a small yearly fee (e.g. 1500 EUR) and would be able to keep all of your income, provided you don't send the money to Thailand in the same year that you've earned it (so you need about a year in savings to live on). In such situations I think it's not too much work involved.
Regulations for digital nomads might improve soon in Thailand I believe, so working legally as a single person company in Thailand could become easier hopefully.
But if you setup an offshore company in another country (e.g. Seychelles) you pay a small yearly fee (e.g. 1500 EUR) and would be able to keep all of your income, provided you don't send the money to Thailand in the same year that you've earned it (so you need about a year in savings to live on). In such situations I think it's not too much work involved.
Regulations for digital nomads might improve soon in Thailand I believe, so working legally as a single person company in Thailand could become easier hopefully.
I have looked into it quite a bit, even with the company workaround I would still not be allowed to actually do the work from Thailand due to not having a work permit. I know it is not enforced and all that, it would just take a really really solid salary/rate for me to uproot my current life and go that way.
People who don't have to pay for insulin with their kidney.
$90 but it is guaranteed 40+ hr / week and has been consistent over years
[Delete maybe] I'd also like a poll on how much taxes the contractors pay
big difference between a $300 p/h client a $20 p/h client.
guessing the former is from prior connections, employers, word of mouth and the latter from contracting services.
guessing the former is from prior connections, employers, word of mouth and the latter from contracting services.
120.00 per hour plus expenses . Payable at time of delivery.
[deleted]
dominant factor here is how rich your customer is
[deleted]
36$/hour as a Senior DevOps Engineer
€50-€100
$500/hr, on average.
$145 - 300
> I charge $115-130 an hour. All work is 100% remote. I customize Salesforce.
> I think my rate is pretty good, but am wondering if I should charge more or if there is other tech I should specialize in that could get me a higher rate.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32606348