EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports(finance.yahoo.com)
finance.yahoo.com
EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports
https://finance.yahoo.com/video/evs-least-reliable-vehicle-type-214225842.html
223 comments
I've seen the argument that "traditional auto makers" don't "get" how many people think - they concentrate on panel gaps or wind noise or door closing bump noise. Tesla isn't great there, but the Tesla software is good, and what some people call "kids" treat the car more like a smart phone. They don't care if your panel gaps are great - if your infotainment software is very laggy or crashes, it's a low quality car.
We bought a model Y for two years of mortgage payments.
It's a dream to drive! But the user experience is abysmal. Menus are deep, the entire dashboard is wasted, including the most valuable real estate in front of the driver, and everything is just too hard.
E.g. Adjusting mirrors takes 3 menu clicks, don't even think of doing it while driving.
Adjusting heating takes two clicks, and when you adjust temp, it clears all your other settings and goes to "auto", which half the time will engage A/C because it's over desired temp by a small amount.
Seat warmer? 2+ clicks on center console. Radio stations? 2+ menus, minimum two if you set up a hotkey bar on the bottom of the tablet.
Map? You're practically looking at the passenger glove box to see it.
As mentioned below, the glove box itself is two menus deep.
I find my wife has a mental thermostat model where she expects the heat to turn off if she dials down the climate control, but that just turns on AC full blast.
I'd pay 5k more to have buttons and dials. I love the car for its drive, but really hate the interior interfaces. This model of "Bolt an ipad to the dash" needs to die.
It's a dream to drive! But the user experience is abysmal. Menus are deep, the entire dashboard is wasted, including the most valuable real estate in front of the driver, and everything is just too hard.
E.g. Adjusting mirrors takes 3 menu clicks, don't even think of doing it while driving.
Adjusting heating takes two clicks, and when you adjust temp, it clears all your other settings and goes to "auto", which half the time will engage A/C because it's over desired temp by a small amount.
Seat warmer? 2+ clicks on center console. Radio stations? 2+ menus, minimum two if you set up a hotkey bar on the bottom of the tablet.
Map? You're practically looking at the passenger glove box to see it.
As mentioned below, the glove box itself is two menus deep.
I find my wife has a mental thermostat model where she expects the heat to turn off if she dials down the climate control, but that just turns on AC full blast.
I'd pay 5k more to have buttons and dials. I love the car for its drive, but really hate the interior interfaces. This model of "Bolt an ipad to the dash" needs to die.
>> Adjusting mirrors takes 3 menu clicks, don't even think of doing it while driving.
Wow, that's horrible! While I set my mirrors initially while parked, I often find the need to make fine adjustments while driving (in low-stress situations).
Having to use a 3-layer-deep menu for that —on the center console, no less— is just a complete dealbreaker.
Thank you for posting that! Makes my decision tree easier and another key item to check in evaluating new cars.
EDIT: "fine adjustments" => "fine"
Wow, that's horrible! While I set my mirrors initially while parked, I often find the need to make fine adjustments while driving (in low-stress situations).
Having to use a 3-layer-deep menu for that —on the center console, no less— is just a complete dealbreaker.
Thank you for posting that! Makes my decision tree easier and another key item to check in evaluating new cars.
EDIT: "fine adjustments" => "fine"
Regarding climate, I've found this really depends on how much you like auto. I'm fine with auto most of the time, so I haven't had an issue. Even the auto seat warmers actually work pretty well for me. They barely get warm and then turn off on their own, which is really what I prefer.
Also, you can put the seat warmer icon on the bottom bar, so its just one tap to toggle off/levels 1-3/auto.
I'm not sure what you mean about the map. Every car that I've used has that to the right in a similar position. The tesla layout seems fine to me.
The glovebox is my biggest annoyance, in general. I wish there was a button somewhere.
Also, you can put the seat warmer icon on the bottom bar, so its just one tap to toggle off/levels 1-3/auto.
I'm not sure what you mean about the map. Every car that I've used has that to the right in a similar position. The tesla layout seems fine to me.
The glovebox is my biggest annoyance, in general. I wish there was a button somewhere.
> E.g. Adjusting mirrors takes 3 menu clicks, don't even think of doing it while driving.
20 years ago I was taught that mirrors should have already been adjusted by the time you turn the key. Has this changed? Why would you ever need to adjust the mirrors while driving?
> it clears all your other settings and goes to "auto",
No it doesn't
> Seat warmer? 2+ clicks on center console
It's over click. It's still awful because you have to look at the screen, but it's still only 1 click. There is no reason to lie, it's still terrible.
> Map? You're practically looking at the passenger glove box to see it.
Unless you display is overlapping the glove box somehow, this is not the case.
20 years ago I was taught that mirrors should have already been adjusted by the time you turn the key. Has this changed? Why would you ever need to adjust the mirrors while driving?
> it clears all your other settings and goes to "auto",
No it doesn't
> Seat warmer? 2+ clicks on center console
It's over click. It's still awful because you have to look at the screen, but it's still only 1 click. There is no reason to lie, it's still terrible.
> Map? You're practically looking at the passenger glove box to see it.
Unless you display is overlapping the glove box somehow, this is not the case.
> Why would you ever need to adjust the mirrors while driving?
I find it hard to get a really good setting on my mirrors unless I'm driving (I do at least only mess with it on slow roads with no one around).
I find it hard to get a really good setting on my mirrors unless I'm driving (I do at least only mess with it on slow roads with no one around).
Yeah, that and owners will save the mirror positions to their profile. I've never found this aspect annoying, tbh.
I recently watched a youtube video where a guy rented a Tesla and was frustrated that he needed to dig through touchscreen menus to open the glove box. Apparently it did not have a release latch.
The Model 3/Y are not good rental cars. They're fantastic cars IMO but they take some time to get accustom to, that's not something you want in a rental car.
To open the glove box requires 2 screen presses or activating the voice controls. On the one hand it's an uncommonly used feature, I think I've opened mine once this year. On the other hand it's rather silly that there isn't a button or sensor to allow you to open it physically.
Consider that my Model 3 has a sensor that detects if I close the center console improperly and displays a message on screen, same with the frunk. I would gladly replace one of those sensors for one that detects me groping the glovebox door.
To open the glove box requires 2 screen presses or activating the voice controls. On the one hand it's an uncommonly used feature, I think I've opened mine once this year. On the other hand it's rather silly that there isn't a button or sensor to allow you to open it physically.
Consider that my Model 3 has a sensor that detects if I close the center console improperly and displays a message on screen, same with the frunk. I would gladly replace one of those sensors for one that detects me groping the glovebox door.
> The Model 3/Y are not good rental cars.
That's an interesting way to think about it. I own a Y and have rented a 3 after owning it for more than a year. Even in that situation, the rental was less good than ownership. The rental didn't have app access, so I had to use a keycard. That made locking/unlocking much more awkward. I also couldn't precondition from the app.
It was still a great car, but it felt nothing like the day to day experience of owning one.
That's an interesting way to think about it. I own a Y and have rented a 3 after owning it for more than a year. Even in that situation, the rental was less good than ownership. The rental didn't have app access, so I had to use a keycard. That made locking/unlocking much more awkward. I also couldn't precondition from the app.
It was still a great car, but it felt nothing like the day to day experience of owning one.
The only upside to all the lack of buttons and switches is security. You cannot open the glove box, trunk, drink, or the vehicle without your phone or car key card.
I don't know that it matters.
I believe if the car is unlocked, then the screen can be used to open the glove box. If the car isn't unlocked, then you broke in and prying open the glove box isn't beyond what you're willing to do.
I believe if the car is unlocked, then the screen can be used to open the glove box. If the car isn't unlocked, then you broke in and prying open the glove box isn't beyond what you're willing to do.
Its useful for things like valet mode. You can also have separate passcodes for the glovebox vs regular driving.
Give the voice controls a try! It's the only way I adjust my mirrors.
I have come to appreciate my Model Y's interface for its uniformity. I do love a well designed physical interface, but what you get in most other cars is a total mishmash of control schemes and design languages that change make to make, model to model, and button to button.
I have come to appreciate my Model Y's interface for its uniformity. I do love a well designed physical interface, but what you get in most other cars is a total mishmash of control schemes and design languages that change make to make, model to model, and button to button.
Tesla software is not good overall. The engineering for the batteries is amazing. Drivetrain efficiency is good. The further the software gets from those two things the worse it gets. We ditched our model 3 for an e-tron and could not be happier. We gave up some range for an overall superior product. Our main complaint was the software, especially the shoddy constantly changing main UI. Tesla are good cars for what they do but for most drivers there are better EVs now. Also the Tesla infotainment system constantly breaking /was/ our main complaint. Bluetooth behavior was bad. Crashed and needed resetting (mid drive) pretty often. And it is way more than just infotainment, it is your main UI to do critical tasks like turn on wipers, etc.
I don't get the infotainment software thing. Am I an outlier by just wanting the dumbest possible system for my phone to connect to and run CarPlay on? I don't want anything the car maker added, not even radio.
I use my Honda's infotainment system to set defaults for various car systems and for CarPlay. That's basically it. Doesn't even have a particularly large screen but it's fine for what I need it for. Climate controls etc. are all buttons.
> Am I an outlier by just wanting the dumbest possible system for my phone to connect to and run CarPlay on?
That's one thing I like with my Up!. The infotainment system is a simple phone holder with USB to power it.
That's one thing I like with my Up!. The infotainment system is a simple phone holder with USB to power it.
We are almost definitely outliers, but the good thing is that there are probably enough of us to be a worthwhile market for people to sell us these kinds of vehicles.
I don't think we'll ever be forced into buying these ridiculous computers with cars attached.
My current manufacturer of choice is Honda, but I'm sure they'll end up adding this cruft at some point to their future cars, too.
I don't think we'll ever be forced into buying these ridiculous computers with cars attached.
My current manufacturer of choice is Honda, but I'm sure they'll end up adding this cruft at some point to their future cars, too.
At least the Passport seems a pretty good balance even if there are still more "do you really need to have an electronic control for that?" things than I'd probably like in an ideal world.
Expectations are simply different once you step into the luxury segment.
Tesla, pre Model 3, had real issues that went beyond panel gaps. Modern Tesla is doing much better, but they're competing against established players who differentiate through great interiors and "the little details".
Large portions of this customer segment are willing to trade long term reliability for perceived build quality and overall luxury. Tesla's value proposition, which is great performance and long term reliability at the expense of panel gap size and cheap leather, simply doesn't fit their expectations.
Tesla, pre Model 3, had real issues that went beyond panel gaps. Modern Tesla is doing much better, but they're competing against established players who differentiate through great interiors and "the little details".
Large portions of this customer segment are willing to trade long term reliability for perceived build quality and overall luxury. Tesla's value proposition, which is great performance and long term reliability at the expense of panel gap size and cheap leather, simply doesn't fit their expectations.
I went to a tesla store late in 2021 to see the X, 3 and S.
On the model S in the show room, the boot looked like they had painted over a number of bugs.
One door was higher than the other. The panel gap around the driver door was massive.
I have a 2006 kia rio, which has better paint work, and better panel gaps than a tesla, and costs £1800.
I really wanted to like the tesla as I could have got a good deal, but if it didn't fit together, then what else has crappy tolerances? is the NCAP performance rigged? will it actually survive a crash?
edit stuff like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/jlSOOHJ
On the model S in the show room, the boot looked like they had painted over a number of bugs.
One door was higher than the other. The panel gap around the driver door was massive.
I have a 2006 kia rio, which has better paint work, and better panel gaps than a tesla, and costs £1800.
I really wanted to like the tesla as I could have got a good deal, but if it didn't fit together, then what else has crappy tolerances? is the NCAP performance rigged? will it actually survive a crash?
edit stuff like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/jlSOOHJ
>long term reliability
Are you aware that Tesla's MCU bricks itself after a few years due to eMMC wear? They also dragged their feet before finally caving in and agreeing to a recall. I wouldn't call any Tesla reliable long-term. The older models have proven themselves to be not reliable, and the new models are too new for these issues due to poor design to surface.
Are you aware that Tesla's MCU bricks itself after a few years due to eMMC wear? They also dragged their feet before finally caving in and agreeing to a recall. I wouldn't call any Tesla reliable long-term. The older models have proven themselves to be not reliable, and the new models are too new for these issues due to poor design to surface.
Lack of institutional knowledge is a huge problem at Tesla. They repeatedly have to learn lessons that every other auto maker figured out decades ago.
It's pervasive across the whole company. Remember when Elon was complaining about the lack of car carrier trailers, and making plans to build his own? Tesla was the only company with that problem.
It's pervasive across the whole company. Remember when Elon was complaining about the lack of car carrier trailers, and making plans to build his own? Tesla was the only company with that problem.
That's funny. I remember news reports about how Japanese consumers didn't want to buy American-made cars because of the perception that Japanese cars were higher quality. The salesmen tried to explain that American consumers didn't care about things like panel gaps or wind noise of door closing bump noise.
The Tesla infotainment system pre-2018/MCU2 is pretty laggy. The software also writes too much to the eMMC and bricks the MCU after a few years in the original design. And without Android Auto / Apple Carplay, you can't bypass it by plugging in your phone either, which is still a problem now.
They wanted to charge me $200 to complete this recall.
So you get a new eMMC which dies in a few years again? Or did they fix the software as well?
The last FAQ entry mentions a software update so I wouldn’t be surprised if it did.
Or at least made it so the writes are spread out over the 64GB replacement resulting in 8x longevity.
Or at least made it so the writes are spread out over the 64GB replacement resulting in 8x longevity.
ilyt(1)
Automakers rate things like panel gaps on an X of 10 scale, where X is on average how many people have historically complained about a gap of a given size. Some thing are rated as maybe a 3 of 10, and they won’t overly obsess on it, but something that shows a 6 or 7 of 10 complaint rate is going to get attention. It is very data driven, from the fact that a significant number of new cars buyers DO actually care.
Yes, but kids can't afford Teslas, now can they? The people who are actually paying for Teslas care about things such as fit and finish. They also care about reliability and service. I don't know about reliability, and here I'm talking about not getting stranded due to issues with the car, but frankly Tesla gets an 'F' everywhere else. Meanwhile Apple Car Play and Android Auto take care of the "kids" concern for infotainment software.
I've seen many auto manufacturers go under over the course of my life. Tesla is just going to be another one.
I've seen many auto manufacturers go under over the course of my life. Tesla is just going to be another one.
That's quality, not reliability
And Tesla yokes fall apart, who doesn't care about that ?
But yeah, bad infotainment can make car feel very old, in the "what the fuck I spent my money on, my ancient phone is faster!" way. Especially when you save few bucks putting essential controls on touch screen instead of a knob
And Tesla yokes fall apart, who doesn't care about that ?
But yeah, bad infotainment can make car feel very old, in the "what the fuck I spent my money on, my ancient phone is faster!" way. Especially when you save few bucks putting essential controls on touch screen instead of a knob
As far as the German TüV is concerned Tesla fails at being roadworthy. Its cars compete with Dachia in the fails first mandatory inspection statistic.
Panel gaps don’t even matter from a pragmatic standpoint.
from a pragmatic standpoint, getting me to and from work reliably is the only thing that matters. but I can get that out of a $20k corolla. a car that costs twice as much needs to bring a little more to the table.
> Panel gaps don’t even matter from a pragmatic standpoint.
panel gaps are a sign of quality. Why are there gaps? at best the door hinges are not aligned properly, at worse the whole chassis is warped. Does the door close properly, as in seat where it's designed to? will that cause paint damage? when the temperature changes and the doors shift, will that make the windows fail to close properly?
If the doors are not aligned properly, does that mean that if there is a crash, the points where the load is supposed to be dissipated are missed?
Does that mean that its easier to break into? can I just get a slimjim down the inside and hoik out valuables.
If this was a budget car, that was engineered to a price so that _everyone_ can afford it, then yes, I'd let tesla off. its not a big problem. But its not, Telsa are supposedly a luxury car maker.
panel gaps are a sign of quality. Why are there gaps? at best the door hinges are not aligned properly, at worse the whole chassis is warped. Does the door close properly, as in seat where it's designed to? will that cause paint damage? when the temperature changes and the doors shift, will that make the windows fail to close properly?
If the doors are not aligned properly, does that mean that if there is a crash, the points where the load is supposed to be dissipated are missed?
Does that mean that its easier to break into? can I just get a slimjim down the inside and hoik out valuables.
If this was a budget car, that was engineered to a price so that _everyone_ can afford it, then yes, I'd let tesla off. its not a big problem. But its not, Telsa are supposedly a luxury car maker.
Big panel gaps = lowered fuel economy.
Seems pragmatic to me to care about it.
Seems pragmatic to me to care about it.
Lowered by how much?
Ah, the ol' "move the goalposts" technique! A classic for sure.
Well, of course "actually, it costs $2 per month in fuel" may be technically correct, but I am sure most people would find such concerns quite petty and beside the point.
> Panel gaps don’t even matter from a pragmatic standpoint.
This is your statement.
They "don't even matter". It's not pragmatic to care about panel gaps. It doesn't matter.
That is what you are stating, that isn't me misquoting or being malicious, they're your words!
If you meant to instead say "There are diminishing returns to reduce panel gap size, and Tesla have got it right!", then I agree with the first statement, disagree with the second, but best of all it clarifies your point. Cheers!
This is your statement.
They "don't even matter". It's not pragmatic to care about panel gaps. It doesn't matter.
That is what you are stating, that isn't me misquoting or being malicious, they're your words!
If you meant to instead say "There are diminishing returns to reduce panel gap size, and Tesla have got it right!", then I agree with the first statement, disagree with the second, but best of all it clarifies your point. Cheers!
What’s the point of that nitpick? You could also say that a 10cm panel gap would be very noticeable and inconvenient, but I think it’s very clear from the context that this is not a very relevant observation to the discussion at hand.
“They don’t matter” as in “the returns on decreasing the panel gap from the 1st percentile of panel gaps on the market to the 99th percentile are so small, spending energy on thinking about it is probably more expensive. It is a cosmetic issue.”
“They don’t matter” as in “the returns on decreasing the panel gap from the 1st percentile of panel gaps on the market to the 99th percentile are so small, spending energy on thinking about it is probably more expensive. It is a cosmetic issue.”
Basically, the Tesla are the modern Yugo, albeit with a premium price and premium but shitty trim.
From the paywalled https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/new-and-used-cars/article/ca...
> Tesla's electric cars may look like the future, but once again, feedback from owners reveal the brand's disappointing dependability.
> 39% of Tesla owners we heard from with a car aged up to four years old had at least one issue they needed to get repaired in the past year, which is twice as high as the average fault rate for cars this new.
> The most common issues are, somewhat unusually, to do with the exterior and are mostly minor. Those that experienced faults with the exterior (19% of all owners) or non-engine electrics (21% of all owners) most frequently complained about paintwork issues and problems with lights respectively.
> Slightly less common were issues with rainwater seals, meaning water can leak into the car. It's rare for a brand to have such issues in such numbers on its new cars, and indicates a general low level of quality with the finish of Tesla's vehicles.
> While the fault rate is high, the breakdown rate (or cars failing to start) is in line with the average for cars in the 0-4 year group at 4.9%.
> Tesla's electric cars may look like the future, but once again, feedback from owners reveal the brand's disappointing dependability.
> 39% of Tesla owners we heard from with a car aged up to four years old had at least one issue they needed to get repaired in the past year, which is twice as high as the average fault rate for cars this new.
> The most common issues are, somewhat unusually, to do with the exterior and are mostly minor. Those that experienced faults with the exterior (19% of all owners) or non-engine electrics (21% of all owners) most frequently complained about paintwork issues and problems with lights respectively.
> Slightly less common were issues with rainwater seals, meaning water can leak into the car. It's rare for a brand to have such issues in such numbers on its new cars, and indicates a general low level of quality with the finish of Tesla's vehicles.
> While the fault rate is high, the breakdown rate (or cars failing to start) is in line with the average for cars in the 0-4 year group at 4.9%.
Smashing! thanks for this. MY wife read it in the magazine, but I wasn't able to find it in time.
No way! I rented several non-tesla's I stopped after my second time getting stranded in the middle of nowhere because inaccurate battery meter. Even once a month waiting an hour+ to charge a car is intolerable. But oh no, swapping batteries like NIO is out of the question. Hybrids are cool but they say they are the worst to repair.
I've owned 3 EVs and Tesla is the lowest quality car I've ever owned. Teslas weigh down the average b/c they're the majority of EVs on the road.
Huge plus one, we sold our Tesla because it was a reliability nightmare.
Teslas the majority? I always assume Tesla was a more luxury brand of EVs.
Is there any ranking of amount of EVs by brand sold to date?
AFAIR Nissan Leaf was selling quite well some time in Europe. And in 2022 I see BYD sold more vehicles than Tesla, but I can't find data for all the EVs sold in the past.
Is there any ranking of amount of EVs by brand sold to date?
AFAIR Nissan Leaf was selling quite well some time in Europe. And in 2022 I see BYD sold more vehicles than Tesla, but I can't find data for all the EVs sold in the past.
Not sure how reliable the source is but this [0] shows 60% of US EV sales were Teslas in Q3.
0: https://joinyaa.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and...
0: https://joinyaa.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and...
> I always assume Tesla was a more luxury brand of EVs.
Eh, Model S was high-end but wouldn't call it luxury. Lots of regular people with a decent income bought it. Interior wasn't up to "luxury" standards.
My kindergarten teacher has a Model 3, so that's not really luxury at all.
Eh, Model S was high-end but wouldn't call it luxury. Lots of regular people with a decent income bought it. Interior wasn't up to "luxury" standards.
My kindergarten teacher has a Model 3, so that's not really luxury at all.
Huh, looks like the Model 3 sells for $47,000. Much less than I was expecting, but still a bit pricey for a kindergarten teacher.
Model 3 is 2x the price of Nissan Leaf, and Leaf is a bit price for its size. Leaf costs 2x the price of equivalent petrol car.
A car that costs 4x the price of "normal car" is a luxury for my taste.
And Model 3 is the least expensive Tesla car.
A car that costs 4x the price of "normal car" is a luxury for my taste.
And Model 3 is the least expensive Tesla car.
Eh depends on what you call equivalent. A base model 2023 Toyota Corolla is $21k, a fully decked out one is $28k or so. A 2022 Nissan Leaf is $27k. So not quite double.
Oh, you are right.
Nissan Leaf few years ago looked more like B-segment (subcompact - like e.g. Honda Fit) but now I see it is actually a compact (C-segment).
Nissan Leaf few years ago looked more like B-segment (subcompact - like e.g. Honda Fit) but now I see it is actually a compact (C-segment).
> My kindergarten teacher has a Model 3, so that's not really luxury at all.
Dual incomes make this a weak metric. The Model 3 also retails for the same price as the BMW 5 series and Mercedes-Benz E class.
Dual incomes make this a weak metric. The Model 3 also retails for the same price as the BMW 5 series and Mercedes-Benz E class.
BYD sold more vehicles, but less BEVs than Tesla. BYD makes also plugin hybrids.
In the US, the vast majority of EVs on the road are Teslas. Even today, they account for over 50% of sales. Other automakers are not shipping in volume to the US.
> I always assume Tesla was a more luxury brand of EVs.
Aren't EVs in generally really still luxury (or at least high middle tier) brands? Are there EV equivalents of a Civic?
Aren't EVs in generally really still luxury (or at least high middle tier) brands? Are there EV equivalents of a Civic?
I can't speak to what's currently available in the US market, but my 2014 Mitsubisht iMiev is blissfully basic. Unfortunately it was so much so that it didn't sell well here and got taken off the market. No central display screen other than a few monochrome characters for the radio. Buttons everywhere. Manual seats. No backup camera. The ~50mi range from a 16 KWh battery pack is suboptimal for long-range driving, but it's perfect for the city. It is smaller than a Civic though.
I get the impression that, for first-world markets, "EV" is synonomous with "Tesla" and that irks me. It's just a different drivetrain, but somehow the focus groups have decided that all EVs have to have the same de-featured tablet-on-wheels look. I'm generalizing here, but I agree with the sentiment behind your question. I wish there were more traditionally designed cars with EV drivetrains becuase when I drive this one into the ground I sure hope there's something similar to replace it with.
I get the impression that, for first-world markets, "EV" is synonomous with "Tesla" and that irks me. It's just a different drivetrain, but somehow the focus groups have decided that all EVs have to have the same de-featured tablet-on-wheels look. I'm generalizing here, but I agree with the sentiment behind your question. I wish there were more traditionally designed cars with EV drivetrains becuase when I drive this one into the ground I sure hope there's something similar to replace it with.
Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf are both cars I would consider to be Civic-class cars. Especially the Bolt. They also happen to be two of the cheapest EVs on the road, so it lines up.
Class possibly, but not price. Here in Canada the Leaf is $40k and the Bolt is $38k while the Civic is $26k.
I can't speak to other regions, but the base model Chevy Bolt is $26.6k in the USA. The Nissan Leaf is $28k.
Honda Civic base in USA is $24.6k.
Honda Civic base in USA is $24.6k.
That's a bizarre price discrepancy. I wonder if there's some credits in there that I'm not getting in Canada, or that aren't included in the initial price tag.
Those prices are without any incentives, actually. If they actually manage to get the 'made in America' requirement for the batteries, then I believe they'd be eligible for an additional $7500 off that price. Depending on where you live, there may be still state incentives available right now too.
a Chevy bolt is competitive on price with tax incentives factored in. it's actually not bad, but imo the civic is a much better value unless you really want an EV.
The Bolt is the closest in the US. It has very limited DCFC capability compared to the Model 3, though.
EVs are luxury cars full stop. A luxury EV is a redundant phrase, outside of China.
Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks?
The Tesla Model S is only ten years old. So my 20 year old bulletproof Japanese petrol car is twice the age of the entire class of modern day EVs.
My petrol car could probably have done the first ten years of its' life with oil changes and nothing else at all. I mean, it's done the last few years that way. But there's been a century of serious engineering work to get it to that place.
And yeah, having owned a Tesla, the earlier models at least were designed to be fun luxury toys. Even something like the windows - frameless, auto-retracting things that can freeze in winter, vs a mechanical wind down thing on a Civic or whatever.
The Tesla Model S is only ten years old. So my 20 year old bulletproof Japanese petrol car is twice the age of the entire class of modern day EVs.
My petrol car could probably have done the first ten years of its' life with oil changes and nothing else at all. I mean, it's done the last few years that way. But there's been a century of serious engineering work to get it to that place.
And yeah, having owned a Tesla, the earlier models at least were designed to be fun luxury toys. Even something like the windows - frameless, auto-retracting things that can freeze in winter, vs a mechanical wind down thing on a Civic or whatever.
The EV drive trains are simpler, but they've come along with some silly bits like having to electronically open the glove box from the infotainment screen. Is that mechanism going to last 20 years? How about the pop-out door handles? I'm not optimistic.
I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes an angry grinding noise."
I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes an angry grinding noise."
I have no idea about electronic glove boxes, but electronic window openers are cheaper and more reliable than manual window openers. Sure sometimes an electronic window opener won't open the window when it's frozen shut but that's a good part of the reason why it's more reliable -- many a manual opener has been broken putting too much torque on a window that's frozen shut.
In terms of whether it’s poor/reliable design, I think the failure mode and dependency chain is much more important than capabilities. The glovebox example has two key features your windows example does not:
1. If the glovebox fails for any reason, there’s no workaround and it goes to closed. (I don’t know whether it’s true there’s no workaround, but that’s what we’ve got suggested here). This would be akin to the window failing, and reverting to full-open position with no way to physically pull it, or convince it to stay in current position.
2. If the infotainment system fails, the glovebox is taken out with it. Because of 1, the glovebox is taken out 100% — not just the convenient infotainment style of usage. This would be akin to, well, the same. The death of the infotainment system is the death of your windows.
3. There could also be the reverse dependency, not in play here (afaik) — the death of the glovebox mechanic may equate to the death of your infotainment system.
That is, the question isn’t whether the individual component is reliable in and of itself (which is less a statement about Tesla and more of their suppliers), but whether they’ve tied things together such that one failure creates a cascading effect — and done so unnecessarily. And in such scenarios, whether backup strategies exist.. (your tire shouldn’t blow, but if it does… there’s an extra tire in your trunk and shitty-but-enough tools to get by). And as I understand it, Tesla has produced a masterpiece of unnecessarily coupled components, particularly around the UX.
So it’s not surprise to me that they see higher UX failure rates — they seem to design the car intentionally to have no degraded experience allowed; either everything works, or nothing does
1. If the glovebox fails for any reason, there’s no workaround and it goes to closed. (I don’t know whether it’s true there’s no workaround, but that’s what we’ve got suggested here). This would be akin to the window failing, and reverting to full-open position with no way to physically pull it, or convince it to stay in current position.
2. If the infotainment system fails, the glovebox is taken out with it. Because of 1, the glovebox is taken out 100% — not just the convenient infotainment style of usage. This would be akin to, well, the same. The death of the infotainment system is the death of your windows.
3. There could also be the reverse dependency, not in play here (afaik) — the death of the glovebox mechanic may equate to the death of your infotainment system.
That is, the question isn’t whether the individual component is reliable in and of itself (which is less a statement about Tesla and more of their suppliers), but whether they’ve tied things together such that one failure creates a cascading effect — and done so unnecessarily. And in such scenarios, whether backup strategies exist.. (your tire shouldn’t blow, but if it does… there’s an extra tire in your trunk and shitty-but-enough tools to get by). And as I understand it, Tesla has produced a masterpiece of unnecessarily coupled components, particularly around the UX.
So it’s not surprise to me that they see higher UX failure rates — they seem to design the car intentionally to have no degraded experience allowed; either everything works, or nothing does
The Model S has frameless windows. If the window opener fails you can't close or open the door.
They use the fact that they are electronic to add gimmicks.
They use the fact that they are electronic to add gimmicks.
To be fair, even many of the latest ICE vehicles have a lot of electronic/motor-driven frippery. I bought a new vehicle over the summer and, in spite of having a fairly generous collection of pushbutton controls, still has a ton of automatic controls--e.g. shifting the drivers side rearview mirror to reverse--that aren't really necessarily and are presumably expensive to fix when they break.
This isn't limited to EVs, though, right? My 2012 VW TDI won't open without a key fob (even though the ignition is still key-driven). How is that a "feature?" Just let me unlock the door with my key. I am very much against "infotainment" systems, and I wonder if some makers will begin/continue to offer models that do not have a tablet in the middle of the dash.
If it's like most VW's that I've seen with no apparent way to unlock with a key, the physical key mechanism is hidden under the door handle trim piece. But maybe you're just saying that opening with the key is not provided as a primary option? For better or for worse, the "feature" is aesthetics.
Huh, so there's some magic panel or something? I'll have to poke around.
Look for a little rubber flap under the drivers side door handle.
These are Tesla things though. My VW EV has normal door handles, glove box handle, air vent positioning, manual seats, etc etc.
The Lyriq also has an electronic glove box: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sirCpkqvpE0&t=59s
Very possible we'll see the same in the Blazer, and maybe the Equinox too.
Which puts you in the stupid situation where if your 12v battery is dead, you can't even use the car's paper manual to look at the jumping instructions. The process has of course been made more complicated by the addition of a scavenger hunt for the positive and negative terminals hidden under separate plastic covers under the hood.
The 12v battery in an EV shouldn't die, but failures in the system to automatically keep it topped up are not unheard of, and batteries do go bad eventually.
Very possible we'll see the same in the Blazer, and maybe the Equinox too.
Which puts you in the stupid situation where if your 12v battery is dead, you can't even use the car's paper manual to look at the jumping instructions. The process has of course been made more complicated by the addition of a scavenger hunt for the positive and negative terminals hidden under separate plastic covers under the hood.
The 12v battery in an EV shouldn't die, but failures in the system to automatically keep it topped up are not unheard of, and batteries do go bad eventually.
They may be "Tesla things", but they're in no way related to Tesla's being an EV. The same gadgetry could very well be attached to an ICE vehicle.
The Rivian suv is even worse like this. I was waiting for the suv to come out and now that it finally did I guess I'll just get a 4runner.
It doesn't boggle my mind that there are people with no sense that think a car with just a big touch screen and nothing else is a fresh new and therefor better idea, but it does boggle my mind that there are so many of them that a whole car actually gets all the way to mass production like that, all the engineers and ergonomics people and managers and execs that all had to sign off on all of that... that does just plain flabbergast me.
You need to navigate screen menus to AIM THE AIR VENTS in the Rivian suv.
It doesn't boggle my mind that there are people with no sense that think a car with just a big touch screen and nothing else is a fresh new and therefor better idea, but it does boggle my mind that there are so many of them that a whole car actually gets all the way to mass production like that, all the engineers and ergonomics people and managers and execs that all had to sign off on all of that... that does just plain flabbergast me.
You need to navigate screen menus to AIM THE AIR VENTS in the Rivian suv.
>I'm sure the police are going to love that one. "License and registration?" "Sorry officer, they're in the glove compartment and when I tap the button it just makes an angry grinding noise."
The only reason they ask for your papers is because it's an easy ticket to write or pretext for fishing if you don't have them. They look up your info based on the plate regardless.
The only reason they ask for your papers is because it's an easy ticket to write or pretext for fishing if you don't have them. They look up your info based on the plate regardless.
Regarding the pop-out door handles - this is a fascinating video on how the Tesla Model S door handles design has been refined and made more reliable by someone who used to work at Tesla (SuperfastMatt) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bea4FS-zDzc
It's interesting that Tesla, one of the newest automakers, has far more issues than the EVs made by the established players. So it may be less that the Model S is only 10 years old and more that Tesla itself is relativley young and inexperienced.
For issues with drivetrain etc -- absolutely. But it seems that a lot of the problems center around fit and finish of the body of the vehicle, trim, accessories etc -- stuff the industry has decades of experience with. It really sounds like quality was sacrificed for efficiency there.
“The industry” also had decades of time to perfect their process, and afaik there isn’t some giant knowledge-sharing system in place for new manufacturers to get all the insights of “the industry”.
A new car manufacturer is going to have issues in fit and finish for the first few years regardless as they figure out their tooling process.
I’m sure quality was sacrificed to some extent, everyone does it whenever they can, but I wouldn’t expect a new company to be at the same level as one that’s been doing it for decades.
A new car manufacturer is going to have issues in fit and finish for the first few years regardless as they figure out their tooling process.
I’m sure quality was sacrificed to some extent, everyone does it whenever they can, but I wouldn’t expect a new company to be at the same level as one that’s been doing it for decades.
But aren't most components actually sourced from third-parties? In which case, their experience with the traditional manufacturers could be reused. The French manufacturers, for example, don't produce their own seats.
I don't expect the auxiliary (as in not engine / drivetrain related) components to be radically different just because they're attached to an EV-powered car. Or does Tesla actually manufacture everything?
I don't expect the auxiliary (as in not engine / drivetrain related) components to be radically different just because they're attached to an EV-powered car. Or does Tesla actually manufacture everything?
Body panel fit is a pretty common complaint with Teslas (and is definitely an issue, my own has gaps in some areas but none that I deemed extreme, I’ve seen some bad ones out there though). That would be an example of something that, IMO, can only be perfected with time. The body panels might be similar to other cars, but it’s something that each manufacturer is going to have different issues with because of the variability.
I don’t think I’ve really seen many criticisms of commonly available parts used in Tesla cars. The one big one that comes to mind would be the eMMC recall which, similar to what I said above, Tesla figured out after years of heavy writes to the component. It’s something that could have been avoided had there been some centralized group to give best practices for automotive or industrial development but that just doesn’t really exist.
I don’t think I’ve really seen many criticisms of commonly available parts used in Tesla cars. The one big one that comes to mind would be the eMMC recall which, similar to what I said above, Tesla figured out after years of heavy writes to the component. It’s something that could have been avoided had there been some centralized group to give best practices for automotive or industrial development but that just doesn’t really exist.
> Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks?
Obviously. Any such report (accurate or otherwise) would show you a snapshot of how things are right now. It won't tell you why or predict how the reliability might change.
It makes perfect sense that Tesla would still need to iron out issues related to build quality (unlike automakers who have been working on those for decades), and that other automakers would have to iron out issues related to the electric drive train (less experience in that front).
Obviously. Any such report (accurate or otherwise) would show you a snapshot of how things are right now. It won't tell you why or predict how the reliability might change.
It makes perfect sense that Tesla would still need to iron out issues related to build quality (unlike automakers who have been working on those for decades), and that other automakers would have to iron out issues related to the electric drive train (less experience in that front).
It's a lot easier to catch up on sticking batteries, an esc and some brushless motors into a good car than building a good car. Elon succeeded, he got other manufacturers to start building quality EVs.
Obviously anecdata but I've had an EV (Jaguar I-Pace) for a year and a bit now and it is by far the best and most reliable vehicle I have ever owned.
I've driven over 8000 miles in it and have not had a single issue. Contrast it to my new diesel Mercedes, which I think I had to service 4 times over the first year I owned it. It just makes sense that they'd be far more reliable - there are far fewer moving parts that can break.
If you don't need the >300 mile range regularly then an EV is by far the best choice. They're also cheaper over the lifetime of the vehicle.
I've driven over 8000 miles in it and have not had a single issue. Contrast it to my new diesel Mercedes, which I think I had to service 4 times over the first year I owned it. It just makes sense that they'd be far more reliable - there are far fewer moving parts that can break.
If you don't need the >300 mile range regularly then an EV is by far the best choice. They're also cheaper over the lifetime of the vehicle.
If you exclude Teslas and plug in hybrids then most EVs are incredibly reliable. Yes, power electronics wear out and break on occasion but that’s nothing in comparison to the complexity of an internal combustion vehicle. And car manufacturers only have a few years experience mass producing EVs. Once they gain experience there will be no competition from fossil fuel cars. The future is not internal combustion.
Yet, the original article specifically refers to the fact that hybrids seem to be more reliable on average than EVs currently. Might have something to do with the fact that the big Japanese powerhouses (Toyota, Honda and Mazda) haven't really spent any time developing high-power EV powertrains yet. But the atkinson-cycle and (relatively) small battery and elmotor combo has been around for 20 years and it's well honed in now.
The only reason Tesla drivetrains are reliable is because they've basically spent 10 years on developing not much else besides the drivetrain.
The only reason Tesla drivetrains are reliable is because they've basically spent 10 years on developing not much else besides the drivetrain.
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>that’s nothing in comparison to the complexity of an internal combustion vehicle.
Some days I dream of leaving the complexity and sheer scale of the software world and going to something simpler and more relatable, like mechanics.
>Once they gain experience there will be no competition from fossil fuel cars.
This is so bogus. The only reason that most people will end up driving EVs will be because of govenment mandates. Most people were happy with ICE cars (and mostly are, even now).
Some days I dream of leaving the complexity and sheer scale of the software world and going to something simpler and more relatable, like mechanics.
>Once they gain experience there will be no competition from fossil fuel cars.
This is so bogus. The only reason that most people will end up driving EVs will be because of govenment mandates. Most people were happy with ICE cars (and mostly are, even now).
Interesting, since EVs supposedly have lower maintenance costs overall https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_maintenance.html
> All-electric vehicles typically require less maintenance than conventional vehicles because:
> The battery, motor, and associated electronics require little to no regular maintenance
> - There are fewer fluids, such as engine oil, that require regular maintenance
> - Brake wear is significantly reduced due to regenerative braking
> - There are far fewer moving parts relative to a conventional fuel engine.
> All-electric vehicles typically require less maintenance than conventional vehicles because:
> The battery, motor, and associated electronics require little to no regular maintenance
> - There are fewer fluids, such as engine oil, that require regular maintenance
> - Brake wear is significantly reduced due to regenerative braking
> - There are far fewer moving parts relative to a conventional fuel engine.
Maintenance <> reliability
Maintenance is planned. Reliability issues are unplanned failures.
An EV may have brakes that last longer and no oil changes, but some EV manufacturers are adding gimmicky and buggy electronics, or poorly designed body hardware that fails.
Maintenance is planned. Reliability issues are unplanned failures.
An EV may have brakes that last longer and no oil changes, but some EV manufacturers are adding gimmicky and buggy electronics, or poorly designed body hardware that fails.
My cousin recently had a flat tire in her EV. Roadside Assistance did not have a spare, required an expensive tow & her day was a total loss. Dragging a toddler along made a stressful experience worse, as well. I did not previously realize most(?) EVs have no spare tire included.
Replying to my post to reply to all replies... that's a recipe for disaster, IMO.
I wouldn't travel outside a major metro, or on a weekend, without a spare; phone service gets sketchy when rural & the likelihood for monetary abuse by rando Roadside Service providers is likely to be very abusive, as I have experienced 1st hand. I always have a spare tire, jack, plug kit & air pump in my vehicles.
I do travel much, 20-30k miles a year, so I likely experience more issues than average... was zip-tying my shift linkage after a rock bounced up and broke it a couple months back.
I wouldn't travel outside a major metro, or on a weekend, without a spare; phone service gets sketchy when rural & the likelihood for monetary abuse by rando Roadside Service providers is likely to be very abusive, as I have experienced 1st hand. I always have a spare tire, jack, plug kit & air pump in my vehicles.
I do travel much, 20-30k miles a year, so I likely experience more issues than average... was zip-tying my shift linkage after a rock bounced up and broke it a couple months back.
The lack of spare tires is correlated with the increase in tire size, IMO. My first car was a 1987 Mazda with 14" tires. It was a two seat sports car, with a tiny spare mounted vertically. They could do that since it was 14".
Modern sports cars are 18-20" and the spare tire is a big cargo compromise.
Modern sports cars are 18-20" and the spare tire is a big cargo compromise.
Makes me mad that my mustang has a spot for a spare... But no actual spare
They give you a fix it kit and some good wishes
edit: I suspect it's something to do with tire size as you say, but also brakes. Can't fit a donut with what's on the hub
For > $40k I would've liked they throw in a real spare wheel/tire lol
They give you a fix it kit and some good wishes
edit: I suspect it's something to do with tire size as you say, but also brakes. Can't fit a donut with what's on the hub
For > $40k I would've liked they throw in a real spare wheel/tire lol
At that point it was a cost cut. They engineered for a spare but the accountants gave you a can of foam.
The engineers may have pulled the spare to hit CAFE targets, but left the spare well as a cost cut to avoid retooling costs.
That’s actually a good thing, because you have a place to put one if you want to buy one.
I'm sure it depends on the car as to the reason. My RX-8 does not have a spare, but does have space for one. The kit would take up over half the trunk space, though!
I think it's emissions and range rankings.
When you are trying to shave off every last bit of weight to get your car into a lower emissions class, the spare wheel looks like a waste. Why not leave it out, the owner can always put it back in if the really want.
In Europe, the automakers are really getting card into Emission bands by the smallest possible margins, and as this effects tax buyers do care.
For EVs it's range - buyers pay a lot of attention to the headline range figures and a spare wheel plus the tire is not going to help.
In Europe, the automakers are really getting card into Emission bands by the smallest possible margins, and as this effects tax buyers do care.
For EVs it's range - buyers pay a lot of attention to the headline range figures and a spare wheel plus the tire is not going to help.
The effect of a spare on range would be so miniscule as to not matter, tbh. Well, unless it was mounted outside the car for some reason. Some of the designs for mounting them on trucks might have an impact.
I wonder if another constraint is AWD and modern stability control systems not being able to handle a difference in circumference at one corner, so space saver tires are not an option.
I wonder if another aspect of it is an effort to minimize weight, in order to offset the weight of the battery. The Tesla model 3 long-range battery is 1060 lb. To put that in perspective, that's essentially hauling around the equivalent of almost half the curb weight of a Honda Fit just for the battery.
Not putting massive 21" wheels on everything saves a lot of weight too, while making it possible to carry the spare. The giant wheels are easier to brake, easier to get a flat tire on, cost more to replace. The tires cost more to replace as well. They are really terrible in many many ways and are driven by looks more than anything else.
The massive wheels on modern cars are so big and heavy the suspension designs have had to be redone to handle them.. they add lots of unsprung weight, which makes everything harder.
Giant wheels for performance is mostly marketing. So much so that race cars held onto smaller wheels for a very long time. F1 only recently changed to big giant wheels, and the engineering teams were not happy about it, the change was marketing driven to make the F1 cars look more like street cars.
The massive wheels on modern cars are so big and heavy the suspension designs have had to be redone to handle them.. they add lots of unsprung weight, which makes everything harder.
Giant wheels for performance is mostly marketing. So much so that race cars held onto smaller wheels for a very long time. F1 only recently changed to big giant wheels, and the engineering teams were not happy about it, the change was marketing driven to make the F1 cars look more like street cars.
And that was the new fancy wheel size. From 1979 to 1985 that car came with 13” wheels.
Many new cars do not come with a spare either. I had a family friend I needed to help, and their Dodge caravan minivan, only came with an air pump that had a sealant to patch holes in the tire.
Was that standard, or an instance of the dealer stripping the accessories and marketing them as as add-ons? First I've heard of this.
(Minivans often mount the spare in weird places around the undercarriage, not anywhere obvious...)
(Minivans often mount the spare in weird places around the undercarriage, not anywhere obvious...)
Some caravans have the spare in a strange place under the middle of the van, and you might not find it unless you read the owners manual a couple times while scratching your head saying "wait, it's there?" Later vans had no spare at all from the factory. It's very common these days for vehicles to come without a spare. The fact that many people don't realize this is exactly why they do it.
Could have been the dealer stripping the accessory, I do not buy cars often enough to know.
My 2016 Toyota Sienna came with run flat tires. No spare, no can of sealant.
I had the same experience and I was livid. I was 4 hours from home and had to rent a car to get back. It was out in a less populated area without a lot of options and it was a holiday weekend. I had such a hard time finding a car. Some less than reputable place ended up letting me take a slightly crashed car. It was the only thing left that could drive.
My car was towed to a Tesla service center and I had to pay like $400 for a new tire. Then I had to rent another car to go pick mine up a couple days later. I was ready to set the damn thing on fire by the end of it.
The lack of a spare tire isn't exclusive to EV's though. Most don't include a spare anymore.
My car was towed to a Tesla service center and I had to pay like $400 for a new tire. Then I had to rent another car to go pick mine up a couple days later. I was ready to set the damn thing on fire by the end of it.
The lack of a spare tire isn't exclusive to EV's though. Most don't include a spare anymore.
I haven't had a spare tire in my last 6 cars going back 16 years. Manufacturers cut the cost and no longer supply them. 3 of those cars have been EVs, 3 have been ICE.
That’s likely a road hazard issue, not a maintenance or reliability problem. But it’s fairly common for vehicles to not include spare tires these days. My last three vehicles have not had one.
Spares are expensive, heavy, take up space, and nobody buys vehicles based on their inclusion. A vehicle without them gets better fuel mileage, has more space, and costs less.
Spares are expensive, heavy, take up space, and nobody buys vehicles based on their inclusion. A vehicle without them gets better fuel mileage, has more space, and costs less.
Is that unique to EVs? I'm pretty sure the lack of a spare is trend with new cars in general.
Most new non-EVs don't have spares anymore.
Here's your not-equal-to symbol:
≠Didn't work for me.
SQL Error [42601]: ERROR: syntax error at or near "≠"Seems like most of the issue is just that Tesla does shoddy construction, not anything inherent to EVs
I've had a few minor unplanned maintenance issues on a Tesla. Maybe slightly more than my gas cars now that I think about it, but not often enough that I'm thinking about it. Each one was handled at my house so it never really struck me as a significant inconvenience. In one case, they were the ones who showed up to replace a battery before I even knew there was an issue.
Overall, planned maintenance is significantly less on my Tesla than on my gas cars. It's a pretty easy car to own and drive. As others have pointed out, build quality isn't the greatest - at least not commensurate with the price. Now that other options are available, I think it's pretty hard to recommend Tesla, but I wouldn't call it a bad car. It's better than most out there despite its flaws.
Without a doubt, EV is better than gas in most situations. They are just easier, drive better, lower cost to operate, etc. I'm not buying what this article is selling.
Overall, planned maintenance is significantly less on my Tesla than on my gas cars. It's a pretty easy car to own and drive. As others have pointed out, build quality isn't the greatest - at least not commensurate with the price. Now that other options are available, I think it's pretty hard to recommend Tesla, but I wouldn't call it a bad car. It's better than most out there despite its flaws.
Without a doubt, EV is better than gas in most situations. They are just easier, drive better, lower cost to operate, etc. I'm not buying what this article is selling.
That makes sense, but I can't imagine that brake wear in particular moves the needle very much. I typically just change the brake pads every 60,000 miles or so and that's like a $50 expense if you buy the nice pads and new hardware set for my car. Of course, I don't drive some exotic car with carbon ceramic stuff that costs $8K to replace (my car seems to stop well enough regardless).
>That makes sense, but I can't imagine that brake wear in particular moves the needle very much
It only matters if you're doing a TCO comparison that's time constrained to the first 100-150k where nothing expensive happens anyway. The difference between 2 vs 3 brake jobs or pad slaps vs pad slaps and rotors in that time will dominate the cost.
It only matters if you're doing a TCO comparison that's time constrained to the first 100-150k where nothing expensive happens anyway. The difference between 2 vs 3 brake jobs or pad slaps vs pad slaps and rotors in that time will dominate the cost.
The problem is the next 150k, where you have to replace a timing belt and maybe a clutch, while a battery replacement is still practically impossible on many EV models.
I'm also thinking about DIY vs going to a retail mechanic which will probably add a couple hundred dollars to the cost.
How long to batteries last?
A quick google search shows that average age of a car in USA is ~12 years... oldtimers and crashed newish cars skew that number away from the median, but generally batteries will lose capacity way sooner than that, and replacement is currently either very expensive or even impossible in some models.
A quick google search shows that average age of a car in USA is ~12 years... oldtimers and crashed newish cars skew that number away from the median, but generally batteries will lose capacity way sooner than that, and replacement is currently either very expensive or even impossible in some models.
This has been very contrary to my experience. We have had a fully EV Kia for almost a year now, and it is the most low-drama new car that we have owned by far. Literally zero issues with it (unless you count the slow leak in a tire from a nail). 10 years ago we had a Subaru that came with so many factory defects, we swore off Subaru forever. We have had many VWs, none of which ever broke down. They took a ton of maintenance compared to our EV, though.
We were able to install a level 2 charger in our garage, and this had made the car completely worry free. Also, the experience of driving an EV is so much better than driving a gas powered car. I can't stress enough how much of an upgrade going full EV has been for us.
I guess you need to be careful which specific model you buy, and we avoided Tesla because I felt that I had enough buggy software to deal with in my life, but I would guess that the most reliable EVs are much more reliable than the most reliable legacy gas engine cars. After having our EV, Ithink that they are simply just better, and a complete take over in the industry is inevitable.
We were able to install a level 2 charger in our garage, and this had made the car completely worry free. Also, the experience of driving an EV is so much better than driving a gas powered car. I can't stress enough how much of an upgrade going full EV has been for us.
I guess you need to be careful which specific model you buy, and we avoided Tesla because I felt that I had enough buggy software to deal with in my life, but I would guess that the most reliable EVs are much more reliable than the most reliable legacy gas engine cars. After having our EV, Ithink that they are simply just better, and a complete take over in the industry is inevitable.
> We have had a fully EV Kia for almost a year now, and it is the most low-drama new car that we have owned by far.
"Almost a year" is hardly enough time to see what the long term reliability will be! Need to track realiability over 20-30 years to see how these models turn out.
"Almost a year" is hardly enough time to see what the long term reliability will be! Need to track realiability over 20-30 years to see how these models turn out.
Much better reporting here:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technol...
> "Consumer Reports surveyed owners of more than 300,000 vehicles from model years 2000 to 2022 and used that data to make predictions about the reliability of 2023 model year vehicles."
It'd be useful to see the spread over time, as EV's produced over a decade ago are probably not as reliable as EVs being produced today. As far as Tesla:
> "Fisher said Tesla is a "standout" regarding electric powertrains compared with legacy automakers. However, Tesla owners continue to report problems with body hardware, paint and trim in their vehicles across all models, according to Steve Elek, program leader for auto data analytics at Consumer Reports."
My favorite EVs are all modified ICE cars where the internal combustion system has been pulled out and replaced with a Tesla powertrain.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/15/consumer-reports-new-technol...
> "Consumer Reports surveyed owners of more than 300,000 vehicles from model years 2000 to 2022 and used that data to make predictions about the reliability of 2023 model year vehicles."
It'd be useful to see the spread over time, as EV's produced over a decade ago are probably not as reliable as EVs being produced today. As far as Tesla:
> "Fisher said Tesla is a "standout" regarding electric powertrains compared with legacy automakers. However, Tesla owners continue to report problems with body hardware, paint and trim in their vehicles across all models, according to Steve Elek, program leader for auto data analytics at Consumer Reports."
My favorite EVs are all modified ICE cars where the internal combustion system has been pulled out and replaced with a Tesla powertrain.
I don't understand why automakers aren't taking traditional small ICE vehicles and throwing the electric components in it. Besides having to spread the weight of batteries out a bit, is it really much harder (I'm not an engineer by any means)?
I'd love to see an EV version of the boring Corollas; Civics; Fits; Imprezas; or Yaris out there, instead of them doing... whatever it is they're doing (mostly redesigning everything bigger and, in my opinion, uglier). I think to me, and to a lot of people, a car is just a car to get them from A to B, and don't want it to set them back $30-$40k.
Except for a few Chevy Bolts and Nissan Leafs out there, the vehicles on the road seem to be Teslas and larger, fancier makes from traditional ICE manufacturers.
I'd love to see an EV version of the boring Corollas; Civics; Fits; Imprezas; or Yaris out there, instead of them doing... whatever it is they're doing (mostly redesigning everything bigger and, in my opinion, uglier). I think to me, and to a lot of people, a car is just a car to get them from A to B, and don't want it to set them back $30-$40k.
Except for a few Chevy Bolts and Nissan Leafs out there, the vehicles on the road seem to be Teslas and larger, fancier makes from traditional ICE manufacturers.
I think it is hard, as the obvious place to but the batteries in the car is as low as possible and between the axles.
In a small ICE vehicle - depending on your definition of small, there's not that much space usually between the axles. Then with the batteries between the axles, there is not much space just underneath the seats. Look at the e-Golf battery pack as an example https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DFCKKzUCRRs/maxresdefault.jpg
You could in theory put batteries in the Engine compartment and Boot, but i think beyond DIYers this is unpopular because of the handling effects, loss of luggage space and, I assume, safety in a crash.
The BMW i3 is I think the best example of what type of small car could be converted to an EV. It would have to be a small vehicle with large wheelbase, with small wheels pushed to the corners to make maximum space for battery modules. It would convert a small hatchback into a crossover once the height was increased so the battery pack wasn't too low the ground or taking up leg room.
I can think of two vehicles where an automaker tried, and didn't increase the height much the car is recognizably the same - the VW e-Up and Smart ForTwo Electric - which I think are both bad range wise.
Times when the automakers also increased the height would be the Peugeot e-208 and Opel Corsa-e (same underlying car) and Mini Electric - but I think there was a lot of planning ahead in those designs to have platforms that could be EVs rather than retrofit of existing platform.
You could in theory put batteries in the Engine compartment and Boot, but i think beyond DIYers this is unpopular because of the handling effects, loss of luggage space and, I assume, safety in a crash.
The BMW i3 is I think the best example of what type of small car could be converted to an EV. It would have to be a small vehicle with large wheelbase, with small wheels pushed to the corners to make maximum space for battery modules. It would convert a small hatchback into a crossover once the height was increased so the battery pack wasn't too low the ground or taking up leg room.
I can think of two vehicles where an automaker tried, and didn't increase the height much the car is recognizably the same - the VW e-Up and Smart ForTwo Electric - which I think are both bad range wise.
Times when the automakers also increased the height would be the Peugeot e-208 and Opel Corsa-e (same underlying car) and Mini Electric - but I think there was a lot of planning ahead in those designs to have platforms that could be EVs rather than retrofit of existing platform.
An ICEV chassis does not make a very good EV. The ICEVs that have been converted to EV, like the Ford Focus EV, don’t have enough room for a larger battery and have usually only had a battery with around 70-100 mile range. The battery usually intrudes into the cargo area reducing the space for luggage and groceries.
Another problem is that the EV conversion adds a lot to the price. Then at the dealership, customers see an expensive Focus EV sitting next to a less expensive ICEV Focus and they tend to choose the less expensive option.
Another problem is that the EV conversion adds a lot to the price. Then at the dealership, customers see an expensive Focus EV sitting next to a less expensive ICEV Focus and they tend to choose the less expensive option.
Serious question, as I don't know much about vehicle physics: Why not just put a bunch in the (now empty) engine compartment and gas tank area to spread them out a bit? Do they weigh a lot more then a fully built ICE engine+transmission/clutch assembly+full gas tank?
> Do they weigh a lot more then a fully built ICE engine+transmission/clutch assembly+full gas tank?
A 2018 Fiat 500e (electric, with a tiny battery bank good for only ~90 miles) weighs almost 3000 pounds, whereas the same car with ICE is ~2400lb.
So yes, electric is a lot heavier. And that Fiat battery bank is mostly too small to be practical (had two of these on lease, gone now) so a a larger bank with usable range is even heavier.
A 2018 Fiat 500e (electric, with a tiny battery bank good for only ~90 miles) weighs almost 3000 pounds, whereas the same car with ICE is ~2400lb.
So yes, electric is a lot heavier. And that Fiat battery bank is mostly too small to be practical (had two of these on lease, gone now) so a a larger bank with usable range is even heavier.
The Nissan Leaf is about a close as you can get on a chassis built for ICEVs. It uses a platform shared with the Versa and several other Nissans. The electric motor and related electronics and service components (like air conditioner) are where the ICE engine would be and the area under the back seat and luggage area are filled with batteries. I believe it can get up to 150 mile range.
Two other styles that would make for great conversions are the compact and highly reliable Toyota pickup trucks introduced in the 1980s, and the late 1980s rally-style cars, i.e. the BMW E30 M3 etc. A decent minivan would also be nice, although the new VW id Buzz looks interesting (older minivans had pretty bad crash outcomes I think).
I drive a Ford Focus Electric. All of the non-drivetrain parts are standard focus stuff, and are fine. The same mostly-physical-controls UI that non-electric focus has. The usual wear parts wear out just like an ICE car, but the brakes need done a little less often.
And the car is responsive and fun to drive.
The new parts of the design have some rough edges; hopefully these are solved with the newer generation of EVs intended for mass production and making a profit:
- Just like a Tesla, there is a traditional 12V battery that runs accessories when the car is off. This can be drained by rogue modules not shutting down properly. See https://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4302 . I've had this happen several times. It's really annoying to need jump start when the main battery is at 100%.
- This year after 5 years and 50K miles something went wrong with the main battery. Replaced under warranty and apparently uncommon.
And the car is responsive and fun to drive.
The new parts of the design have some rough edges; hopefully these are solved with the newer generation of EVs intended for mass production and making a profit:
- Just like a Tesla, there is a traditional 12V battery that runs accessories when the car is off. This can be drained by rogue modules not shutting down properly. See https://www.myfocuselectric.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4302 . I've had this happen several times. It's really annoying to need jump start when the main battery is at 100%.
- This year after 5 years and 50K miles something went wrong with the main battery. Replaced under warranty and apparently uncommon.
Mechanical complexity is just one type of the overall complexity of a car. There are plenty examples of even ICE vehicles having poor electrical reliability. Now we have lots of software added into the mix. And EVs are pretty new technology too. Cars where at first less reliable than horse and buggy.
Never bought the "moving parts" marketing. But I don't see how it could have gone different either. And early addopters taking a hit does speed progress a lot. So I guess overall there is no news or info here, things are as they could only be.
Never bought the "moving parts" marketing. But I don't see how it could have gone different either. And early addopters taking a hit does speed progress a lot. So I guess overall there is no news or info here, things are as they could only be.
My issue with CR for a long time is that I don’t trust their weighting. I’m much more worried about major drivetrain issues than flaky accessories in general, and it’s always seemed like they don’t distinguish between these categories the way I would. Their detailed breakdown is more useful but doesn’t impact these kinds of broad lists.
I know that the Twitterpolaypse is a separate discussion, but I think it directly impacts Tesla EV's as well.
If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will *NOT* work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla.
When Musk was forced to buy Twitter, he used significant leverage from SpaceX and Tesla to do so. And from his actions as of recent, he's opening significant legal liability to him and the company, and appearing that he's operating a scorched earth model to "punish" that fact he was forced to buy Twitter.
If the Twitter situation does come to a head vs Eli Lilly and all the other companies that substantially lost billions in blue-checkmark manipulation and the FTC consent decree - I can see an eventuality that Tesla is also substantially harmed.. Leading to vehicles that no longer work.
If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will *NOT* work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla.
When Musk was forced to buy Twitter, he used significant leverage from SpaceX and Tesla to do so. And from his actions as of recent, he's opening significant legal liability to him and the company, and appearing that he's operating a scorched earth model to "punish" that fact he was forced to buy Twitter.
If the Twitter situation does come to a head vs Eli Lilly and all the other companies that substantially lost billions in blue-checkmark manipulation and the FTC consent decree - I can see an eventuality that Tesla is also substantially harmed.. Leading to vehicles that no longer work.
> When Musk was forced to buy Twitter
Your definition of "forced" is comical, if not delusional.
> If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will NOT work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla.
My Model 3 works just fine whether it can reach Tesla's servers or not. I've driven to places with zero connectivity to anything, charged fully, and continued driving without issue for over 100 miles before having service again. The worst thing that happened is an empty navigation screen.
Your definition of "forced" is comical, if not delusional.
> If Tesla goes bankrupt, your cars will NOT work, given how tightly they are integrated with servers at Tesla.
My Model 3 works just fine whether it can reach Tesla's servers or not. I've driven to places with zero connectivity to anything, charged fully, and continued driving without issue for over 100 miles before having service again. The worst thing that happened is an empty navigation screen.
You're saying a Tesla won't drive if Tesla goes bankrupt?
I would definitely consider that a possibility.
That thing isn't a car - it's an IoT "thing" with wheels and a battery. And anybody who watches InternetOfShit with any regularity realizes that when there's mothership control, disablement and abandonment isn't far behind.
That thing isn't a car - it's an IoT "thing" with wheels and a battery. And anybody who watches InternetOfShit with any regularity realizes that when there's mothership control, disablement and abandonment isn't far behind.
I own an EV since too little BUT I've already have:
- failed to start once, "High Voltage battery disconnected" error. Detached the 12V battery, reattached it, works again. As ALL modern crapware no logs, no clue of whats going on are available to the formal but not substantial owner...
- still wait for the vendor to DISCONNECT some of it's workers phones so I can bound MY car to MY phone, to surveil charge, activate AC/heating from remote etc instead of someone else I do not know. Of course since all works through the OEM server the OEM can do anything on "my" EV...
I'm very satisfied in terms of driving comfort, very dissatisfied in terms of range, even if it's sufficient in general terms, BUT I call for a collective action: we MUST IMPOSE all OEM to use ONLY FLOSS software AND ONLY personal/authority access to vehicles. It's damn crazy to allow private entity controls of fleets of private vehicles behind their formal owner.
It's not just a risk for the owner h{im,er}self BUT also for a country who can potentially suffer traffic paralysis or multiple accidents on it's territory caused by a single private entity who in reality own all vehicles it have sold formally.
No blackboxes MUST be allowed on sale. Those who try to sell them must be sanctioned so badly no one would even try doing so again.
- failed to start once, "High Voltage battery disconnected" error. Detached the 12V battery, reattached it, works again. As ALL modern crapware no logs, no clue of whats going on are available to the formal but not substantial owner...
- still wait for the vendor to DISCONNECT some of it's workers phones so I can bound MY car to MY phone, to surveil charge, activate AC/heating from remote etc instead of someone else I do not know. Of course since all works through the OEM server the OEM can do anything on "my" EV...
I'm very satisfied in terms of driving comfort, very dissatisfied in terms of range, even if it's sufficient in general terms, BUT I call for a collective action: we MUST IMPOSE all OEM to use ONLY FLOSS software AND ONLY personal/authority access to vehicles. It's damn crazy to allow private entity controls of fleets of private vehicles behind their formal owner.
It's not just a risk for the owner h{im,er}self BUT also for a country who can potentially suffer traffic paralysis or multiple accidents on it's territory caused by a single private entity who in reality own all vehicles it have sold formally.
No blackboxes MUST be allowed on sale. Those who try to sell them must be sanctioned so badly no one would even try doing so again.
There must be a better way to report these numbers. If Tesla picks a shoddy trunk latch supplier that may reflect poorly on Tesla as a brand, but it tells us nothing about the reliability of EVs. I would be more interested in seeing the reliability of components that are critical to the propulsion of the car.
> but it tells us nothing about the reliability of EVs.
But at the end of the day if the car is in the shop, it's in the shop. Regardless of reason.
I've had Fiat 500e EVs and they spent more time at the dealer for repairs than any other car I've had in almost 40 years. No, it wasn't for electric motor drivetrain repair but that's no consolation, I still didn't have a car to drive for those weeks.
(Well I have other cars, but had it been my only car, I'd have been stranded.)
But at the end of the day if the car is in the shop, it's in the shop. Regardless of reason.
I've had Fiat 500e EVs and they spent more time at the dealer for repairs than any other car I've had in almost 40 years. No, it wasn't for electric motor drivetrain repair but that's no consolation, I still didn't have a car to drive for those weeks.
(Well I have other cars, but had it been my only car, I'd have been stranded.)
That is just a lesson about being an early adopter of anything. Electric cars tend to be brand new models (and even have brand new manufacturers). The only vehicle that seems to be a good comparison of reliability is the Ford F-150, which does not have a substantially different IC and electric version.
Would make more sense to compare within manufacturer.
> And they found that for Tesla in particular, issues with body hardware, steering suspension, paint and trim, and climate systems on the models were of most concern. Rick and I tested the Model 3 a few years back and we found a lot of issues with fit and finish and parts on the inside of the car
I wish they'd separate cosmetic issues from functional ones. IMO it's pointless to lump "paint is uneven" in with "steering doesn't work." Maybe they do in the actual report but it's paywalled.
Anecdotally I've seen quite a few minor cosmetic non-driving-related issues with Teslas but overall they've been very reliable (not requiring any motor, brake steering, or suspension maintenance) for everyone I know who owns one.
I wish they'd separate cosmetic issues from functional ones. IMO it's pointless to lump "paint is uneven" in with "steering doesn't work." Maybe they do in the actual report but it's paywalled.
Anecdotally I've seen quite a few minor cosmetic non-driving-related issues with Teslas but overall they've been very reliable (not requiring any motor, brake steering, or suspension maintenance) for everyone I know who owns one.
Paint is not a cosmetic issue, failing paint can cause mechanical failure due to corrosion. Improvements in automotive coatings is the number one reason that cars aren’t “worn out” at 5 years and 50,000 miles like they did in the 70s.
That's true, but a lot of paint issues are not so severe. Many are things like the white bumper not matching the rest of the car. That one is common across brands. Tesla's get a lot of scrutiny for dust nibs and uneven application.
I'd bet its the minority that would have a functional impact.
I'd bet its the minority that would have a functional impact.
There are common mild issues in other categories as well.
“Braking system issues” sound bad, but a common complaint is brake noise.
“Transmission issues” could be hard shifts.
“Engine problems” could be a squeaky belt or tensioner.
“Braking system issues” sound bad, but a common complaint is brake noise.
“Transmission issues” could be hard shifts.
“Engine problems” could be a squeaky belt or tensioner.
Depending on how the surveys work, things like "how do I setup billing for charging?" can show up as charging issues too. It makes sense, but it will create a weird skew between EVs and ICE vehicles. Everyone buying an ICE vehicle already knows how to use a gas station.
There’s a lot of complaints that CR could probably disqualify, but there are so many that this process itself could lead to potential bias.
CR is probably not what you want to read if you’re an enthusiast, but if you’re suggesting a car for your mom, it’s probably pretty dang accurate.
CR is probably not what you want to read if you’re an enthusiast, but if you’re suggesting a car for your mom, it’s probably pretty dang accurate.
Every piece of metal on a modern car body is structural, so basically all corrosion is a structural/crash hazard!
This isn't correct - body panels are often not structural, yet comprise of 99% of the painted surface area you can actually observe on the car without removing any parts or lifting it. The paint application to the non-panel parts is almost a separate process.
Still not the same category as engine failure though
Paint issues can cause problems much more severe in consequence and more expensive to repair than an engine failure.
On the body, they may cause corrosion perforations and cause your vehicle to fail inspection. They may flake or peel and require expensive repainting. On structurally significant parts, a coating failure can do this:
http://www.rustrepairinc.com/wp-content/gallery/tacoma/GQtFo...
On the body, they may cause corrosion perforations and cause your vehicle to fail inspection. They may flake or peel and require expensive repainting. On structurally significant parts, a coating failure can do this:
http://www.rustrepairinc.com/wp-content/gallery/tacoma/GQtFo...
Here are some failure modes to consider:
Paint fails:
- parts rust
- parts eventually fail
- vehicle might bend in two or stop working altoghether
- rust is slow, easily detectable by a mechanic. Takes months or years to do real damage
Engine fails:
- car won't go
Paint fails:
- parts rust
- parts eventually fail
- vehicle might bend in two or stop working altoghether
- rust is slow, easily detectable by a mechanic. Takes months or years to do real damage
Engine fails:
- car won't go
A squeaky belt can be an “engine problem”. A “paint failure” can be: the subframe rusts out and you crash.
My point is that none of these categories can be entirely written off superficial.
My point is that none of these categories can be entirely written off superficial.
Of course not, but in the mind of the consumer, who is financing the whole industry, some problems are problems, and some problems are annoyances
I understand the sentiment, but if I had bad paint, malfunctioning infotainment, or broken body hardware on a brand new car, it's not something that I would think "this is okay, I can put up with this". Cars are expensive and I think it's reasonable to expect to get 100% of what was paid for, or at the very minimum, name and shame them for quality issues.
I owned a Tesla for years and had to constantly have issues fixed, including:
Door handles failing to open doors, door handles failing to present, clicking and jerking when steering far to the right or left, dashboard and infotainment turning off completely, poor seals causing the "wub wub" air pressure effect at highway speeds, charge port failures, a poorly seated and rusty windshield attachment, and a ton of fit and finish issues.
Service centers were impossible to get time at, and they charged an arm and a leg to fix a problem only to have it come back a few months later.
Tesla build quality is exceptionally poor.
Door handles failing to open doors, door handles failing to present, clicking and jerking when steering far to the right or left, dashboard and infotainment turning off completely, poor seals causing the "wub wub" air pressure effect at highway speeds, charge port failures, a poorly seated and rusty windshield attachment, and a ton of fit and finish issues.
Service centers were impossible to get time at, and they charged an arm and a leg to fix a problem only to have it come back a few months later.
Tesla build quality is exceptionally poor.
For Model 3 in particular, the cars made in Shanghai which we receive in Europe have much much higher build quality (in terms of paint, pannel gaps, …) than the ones that used to be shipped from USA.
Ultimately I think it takes a new company a few tries and building a few factories to learn how to mass produce cars with satisfactory quality of these "details". Berlin is also good afaik and I expect the same of Tesla's next production lines.
Ultimately I think it takes a new company a few tries and building a few factories to learn how to mass produce cars with satisfactory quality of these "details". Berlin is also good afaik and I expect the same of Tesla's next production lines.
If they can't get the paint right, why should I expect they got something more critical right?
I mean, a quick google of Ford paint issues, or Toyota, or Honda all show common issues including Ford losing a big lawsuit. Who gets it right?
It might match what others are asking, "what is reliable to the automaker/customer" but they talk about reliability and then start talking about flaking paint and trim that doesn't stick properly? Not really my definition of reliable which would be "it drives in an expected way".
Quality is something else and since lots of EVs are currently high-price items, it doesn't surprise me that shortcuts are made to make everything as cheap as possible so that's fine.
Then on my diesel Skoda, which has had 100 years to perfect, the auto-stop system frequently doesn't start the engine again. Anecdata maybe but my boss has had no problems with his Tesla Model X.
Quality is something else and since lots of EVs are currently high-price items, it doesn't surprise me that shortcuts are made to make everything as cheap as possible so that's fine.
Then on my diesel Skoda, which has had 100 years to perfect, the auto-stop system frequently doesn't start the engine again. Anecdata maybe but my boss has had no problems with his Tesla Model X.
They neglected to mention the biggest problem of all. EVs in Florida randomly catching fire after a hurricane. It turns out salt water is not so good around EVs.
"Fires are not just a concern in the presence of floods. Batteries can overheat, and crashes may damage the batteries, causing fires."
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/electric-vehicle-battery-fi...
"Fires are not just a concern in the presence of floods. Batteries can overheat, and crashes may damage the batteries, causing fires."
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/electric-vehicle-battery-fi...
Salt is also pervasive on roads that get a lot of snow and ice. UPS is about to implement EV trucks here and I talk to the drivers all the time so I guess time will tell how that works out. AFAIK none of the locals own an EV but they do pass through here on their way to Yellowstone.
When I was in Oslo a few years ago, every third car was a Tesla for whatever reason. Considering I haven't heard of too many catching fire there, I'd wager it should be fine.
A few reasons:
- EVs could drive in the bus lane, thus those who got EVs could cut commute drastically in many cases.
- EVs paid no or little road toll, and people have an irrational reaction to that.
- Due to massive increase in property prices over the last decade or so, many were in a very comfortable position w.r.t. loan and could afford a somewhat expensive car.
- Until the end of the year, you don't pay 25% VAT on EVs when buying new. In addition, new EVs don't pay the "engine tax"[1], which can be substantial.
For a semi-random example of the taxes, looking at a BMW M440i Grand Coupe xDrive, if I were to import it, the roughly $60k sales price[2] would get[3] a $31k "engine tax" and $15k VAT for a total of $107k. This matches the local dealer price very well. For the same kind of money you can get a Tesla Model S Plaid for example, or pay a lot less for one of their other models.
[1]: https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/business-and-organisation/vat...
[2]: https://www.truecar.com/best-cars-trucks/sedans/luxury/
[3]: https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/person/duties/cars-and-other-...
- EVs could drive in the bus lane, thus those who got EVs could cut commute drastically in many cases.
- EVs paid no or little road toll, and people have an irrational reaction to that.
- Due to massive increase in property prices over the last decade or so, many were in a very comfortable position w.r.t. loan and could afford a somewhat expensive car.
- Until the end of the year, you don't pay 25% VAT on EVs when buying new. In addition, new EVs don't pay the "engine tax"[1], which can be substantial.
For a semi-random example of the taxes, looking at a BMW M440i Grand Coupe xDrive, if I were to import it, the roughly $60k sales price[2] would get[3] a $31k "engine tax" and $15k VAT for a total of $107k. This matches the local dealer price very well. For the same kind of money you can get a Tesla Model S Plaid for example, or pay a lot less for one of their other models.
[1]: https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/business-and-organisation/vat...
[2]: https://www.truecar.com/best-cars-trucks/sedans/luxury/
[3]: https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/person/duties/cars-and-other-...
The salt thing is about submersion. From the few pictures that I was able to find after Ian, it seems that some started in the front, near the low voltage battery. This sometimes happens with gas cars after hurricanes too, though the effects with BEVs can be more dramatic and require more resources to control.
Road salt wouldn't be enough to cause this issue, as the batteries are pretty well sealed and the low voltage battery is well outside of the elements under normal operation.
Road salt wouldn't be enough to cause this issue, as the batteries are pretty well sealed and the low voltage battery is well outside of the elements under normal operation.
Entirely possible. There are plenty of Tesla fires in Norway per google images but from what I can tell it is mostly cases where the batteries were damaged from a collision. I can not find any public statistics on what percentage of those were damaged by salt.
If fires due to submersion in salt water are the biggest problem, they must be pretty good. Believe it or not, that's a rare situation.
I seriously question their methodology. I still daily drive a 2012 leaf, which has never been to a shop in its existence. 2 years on the Tesla and likewise zero issues.
Tesla is(was?) the mover and shaker, basically forced the big makers to adopt and ramp up EV production and engineering operations. As many others here note, the decades of designing ICE vehicles (inhouse or sourcing/sharing designs/materials), and multiple generations of vehicles of various types is all adding up to inform their final product design in ways no engineering team (however highly paid or talented) can compete with. The grocery-getting person in Ohio is not going to think twice when it's an 60k for a buggy used Tesla when Hyundai puts out something for 30 that works and lasts twice as long.
[deleted]
It's crazy how many people you can put in a bus a tram or a train.
When abundance is over, we will finally make less cars.
When abundance is over, we will finally make less cars.
Article:
While demand for electric vehicles has surged in last two years, new data from Consumer Reports finding that EVs are among the least reliable cars in the auto industry. Pras Subramanian here with the details and Pras, clearly something that the auto industry doesn't necessarily want to hear.
PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Yeah, you know, I was a little surprised to hear that. Because EVs, generally speaking, are simpler or easy to operate than a regular gas powered car. But I'm not surprised to hear about Tesla's issues with reliability here. So they found that owners of the Consumer Reports survey that they surveyed a bunch of their users and on all different models and all different makes of the cars.
And they found that for Tesla in particular, issues with body hardware, steering suspension, paint and trim, and climate systems on the models were of most concern. Rick and I tested the Model 3 a few years back and we found a lot of issues with fit and finish and parts on the inside of the car. Still, Tesla still rose four spots to 19th overall, which isn't that great, but at least it did climb with the rankings.
For non-Tesla EVs, there was issues with charging and batteries and also the motors. So that doesn't sound good, so that's kind of a little black market there for EVs. Overall, pickup trucks were bad overall in terms of the gas powered cars. Looking at the overall picture, we just saw that list up there, Toyota and Lexus retain the top spot. They've been there for a while now, very reliable cars.
BMW, number three. I was really surprised to see that. Kind of speaks to what they're doing with the brand and improving reliability and that better kind of first interaction with the car, followed by Mazda and Honda. So seven of the top 10 brands here were actually Asian companies. So this rounds out the top 5 here with Mazda and Honda at that 4 and 5.
- Interesting. All right, most reliable EVs also compiled. Who came out on top? Anything surprised you here?
PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Most reliable EVs?
- Hybrids.
PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Yeah. Yeah, so it turns out hybrids are actually very, very reliable. Talking about plug-in hybrids, think the Priuses of the world, things like that. So Consumer Reports put together 3 of their top hybrids here. The Lexus NX came out a few years ago in the premium luxury segment here. Very nice car, attractive car, good mileage there. The Ford Maverick. Now we actually had this truck. It is a small compact utility pickup truck. Unibody construction, 38 MPG with hybrid. Yeah.
- 38 miles per gallon.
PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: With the hybrid, yeah. It's actually a smooth car, really good fit and finish. And lastly, the Toyota Corolla. You can't go wrong here, not surprising from Toyota. They make the Prius, as you mentioned. This car gets 48 MPG.
- Boy, that is some astounding numbers. Reliability is what those cars are all about. Pras Subramanian, our senior autos reporter. Good to see you, sir. Thank you.
Report:
https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20...
While demand for electric vehicles has surged in last two years, new data from Consumer Reports finding that EVs are among the least reliable cars in the auto industry. Pras Subramanian here with the details and Pras, clearly something that the auto industry doesn't necessarily want to hear.
PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Yeah, you know, I was a little surprised to hear that. Because EVs, generally speaking, are simpler or easy to operate than a regular gas powered car. But I'm not surprised to hear about Tesla's issues with reliability here. So they found that owners of the Consumer Reports survey that they surveyed a bunch of their users and on all different models and all different makes of the cars.
And they found that for Tesla in particular, issues with body hardware, steering suspension, paint and trim, and climate systems on the models were of most concern. Rick and I tested the Model 3 a few years back and we found a lot of issues with fit and finish and parts on the inside of the car. Still, Tesla still rose four spots to 19th overall, which isn't that great, but at least it did climb with the rankings.
For non-Tesla EVs, there was issues with charging and batteries and also the motors. So that doesn't sound good, so that's kind of a little black market there for EVs. Overall, pickup trucks were bad overall in terms of the gas powered cars. Looking at the overall picture, we just saw that list up there, Toyota and Lexus retain the top spot. They've been there for a while now, very reliable cars.
BMW, number three. I was really surprised to see that. Kind of speaks to what they're doing with the brand and improving reliability and that better kind of first interaction with the car, followed by Mazda and Honda. So seven of the top 10 brands here were actually Asian companies. So this rounds out the top 5 here with Mazda and Honda at that 4 and 5.
- Interesting. All right, most reliable EVs also compiled. Who came out on top? Anything surprised you here?
PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Most reliable EVs?
- Hybrids.
PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Yeah. Yeah, so it turns out hybrids are actually very, very reliable. Talking about plug-in hybrids, think the Priuses of the world, things like that. So Consumer Reports put together 3 of their top hybrids here. The Lexus NX came out a few years ago in the premium luxury segment here. Very nice car, attractive car, good mileage there. The Ford Maverick. Now we actually had this truck. It is a small compact utility pickup truck. Unibody construction, 38 MPG with hybrid. Yeah.
- 38 miles per gallon.
PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: With the hybrid, yeah. It's actually a smooth car, really good fit and finish. And lastly, the Toyota Corolla. You can't go wrong here, not surprising from Toyota. They make the Prius, as you mentioned. This car gets 48 MPG.
- Boy, that is some astounding numbers. Reliability is what those cars are all about. Pras Subramanian, our senior autos reporter. Good to see you, sir. Thank you.
Report:
https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20...
Are a few popular brands biasing the list at all?
This article seems to say EVs have a lot of variation in reliability, and the more expensive ones aren't better. Doesn't that suggest the tech itself is fine, if there are low end ones that are reliable?
https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/ev-reliability-varied-as-...
This article seems to say EVs have a lot of variation in reliability, and the more expensive ones aren't better. Doesn't that suggest the tech itself is fine, if there are low end ones that are reliable?
https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/ev-reliability-varied-as-...
I'm a little skeptical given the massive disruption that EVs represent to the entire... well... oil is practically the basis for the entire world order. It's like the spice in Dune. Multiple powerful and large nations have economies with double-digit dependencies on oil and the use of the dollar for most oil trading is the single largest factor underpinning the US dollar's global reserve currency status.
I'm also a little skeptical because we own two and have had zero problems, but of course small sample sizes and all that. (2013 Nissan Leaf and 2022 Nissan Leaf though, and Nissan tends to build indestructible tanks. I've owned ICE Nissans too. Had one survive a front wheel collision with a curb at 50mph with <$1000 in damage.)
That being said I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that an entirely new drive train technology has teething issues. It's a pretty major departure from ICE drive trains. Manufacturing a complex item like a car at scale is extremely challenging.
It also looks like Tesla's famous build quality issues are sinking the category to some extent. Tesla's drive train seems solid but the rest of the car... it's like the most technologically advanced drive train platform with a 1990s Kia on top.
I'm also a little skeptical because we own two and have had zero problems, but of course small sample sizes and all that. (2013 Nissan Leaf and 2022 Nissan Leaf though, and Nissan tends to build indestructible tanks. I've owned ICE Nissans too. Had one survive a front wheel collision with a curb at 50mph with <$1000 in damage.)
That being said I wouldn't be terribly surprised to learn that an entirely new drive train technology has teething issues. It's a pretty major departure from ICE drive trains. Manufacturing a complex item like a car at scale is extremely challenging.
It also looks like Tesla's famous build quality issues are sinking the category to some extent. Tesla's drive train seems solid but the rest of the car... it's like the most technologically advanced drive train platform with a 1990s Kia on top.
It isn't just Tesla. It is across the board there are big issues but this is not new. The big auto companies have always had this issue with new tech. For example, when they switched to aluminum block engines they had all sorts of horrible issues. Gas to EV is an even bigger jump. I suspect EV build quality will be poor for sometime. I just hope the public keeps embracing EV while they get things sorted.
I wonder if the Nissan Leaf is fairly reliable because it was one of the first mass market EVs ever so they have been building them for almost 10 years. Our 2013 is fine but we bought it used so we'd already passed the descent part of the bath tub failure curve on it. I do dimly recall issues with early Leaf cars, mostly with the battery.
The other factor might be that it's basically a Nissan Versa with an EV drive train. The majority of the car is not different from their other cars, which I consider a feature because almost everything but the EV drive train uses standard parts and can be fixed by any mechanic. It basically just has a battery where the gas tank is and a motor that pretends to be an engine to the other hardware in the vehicle. (I read somewhere that this is almost literally true if you dip into its CANbus traffic.)
It's also a little bit hackable:
https://github.com/dalathegreat/leaf_can_bus_messages
I haven't done anything but I have a friend who's really into car hacking. Have chatted with him about maybe doing a side business upgrading these from CHADEMO to CCS. There are projects for doing that on GitHub with parts lists and code.
The other factor might be that it's basically a Nissan Versa with an EV drive train. The majority of the car is not different from their other cars, which I consider a feature because almost everything but the EV drive train uses standard parts and can be fixed by any mechanic. It basically just has a battery where the gas tank is and a motor that pretends to be an engine to the other hardware in the vehicle. (I read somewhere that this is almost literally true if you dip into its CANbus traffic.)
It's also a little bit hackable:
https://github.com/dalathegreat/leaf_can_bus_messages
I haven't done anything but I have a friend who's really into car hacking. Have chatted with him about maybe doing a side business upgrading these from CHADEMO to CCS. There are projects for doing that on GitHub with parts lists and code.
> So Consumer Reports put together 3 of their top hybrids here. The Lexus NX came out a few years ago in the premium luxury segment here. Very nice car, attractive car, good mileage there. The Ford Maverick. Now we actually had this truck. It is a small compact utility pickup truck. Unibody construction, 38 MPG with hybrid. Yeah.
What's really surprising about the Ford Maverick rated so highly is not really that it's a brand new vehicle from Ford, but that it was engineered to be the least expensive truck possible.
What's really surprising about the Ford Maverick rated so highly is not really that it's a brand new vehicle from Ford, but that it was engineered to be the least expensive truck possible.
>What's really surprising about the Ford Maverick rated so highly is not really that it's a brand new vehicle from Ford, but that it was engineered to be the least expensive truck possible.
Ford kicked off the Maverick project with the goal of low sticker price AND the expectation of low sales volume.
To cut the sticker price they reused a bunch of proven tech from the Focus/Escape/Transit Connect parts bin rather than the half baked New Hotness(TM). In order to recoup engineering costs despite low volume they were forced there was little room in the engineering man-hours budget for the automotive equivalent of "trendy JS framework of the month to the detriment of everything he works on" and other "pad my resume and/or hit my KPIs to the detriment of the product" behavior that plagues BigCo engineering projects.
Basically they were forced to attack it like they were building an Escape (an already reliable and well liked vehicle) with a bed and facelift, not a new vehicle and that path offers a lot less opportunity to build bloated trash than the "develop a new vehicle" path does.
Ford kicked off the Maverick project with the goal of low sticker price AND the expectation of low sales volume.
To cut the sticker price they reused a bunch of proven tech from the Focus/Escape/Transit Connect parts bin rather than the half baked New Hotness(TM). In order to recoup engineering costs despite low volume they were forced there was little room in the engineering man-hours budget for the automotive equivalent of "trendy JS framework of the month to the detriment of everything he works on" and other "pad my resume and/or hit my KPIs to the detriment of the product" behavior that plagues BigCo engineering projects.
Basically they were forced to attack it like they were building an Escape (an already reliable and well liked vehicle) with a bed and facelift, not a new vehicle and that path offers a lot less opportunity to build bloated trash than the "develop a new vehicle" path does.
Affordable trucks have mostly disappeared. They have been climbing up the price brackets for a few generations now. Its gotten to the point that before the Maverick your choices were either absurdly expensive luxury truck or buying a trim meant for commercial use that has no features at all. There did not exist a normal truck anymore. Well, they did nominally. But good luck finding one for sale. Why sell lower tier F-150s when you can build them as Raptors and have a higher profit margin?
So the Maverick is popular not because of any great quality it has. But because there is a massive hole in the market. Reviews I have seen show it as fairly mediocre and generally less capable than previous cheap trucks.
So the Maverick is popular not because of any great quality it has. But because there is a massive hole in the market. Reviews I have seen show it as fairly mediocre and generally less capable than previous cheap trucks.
I spent a lot of time in the early 90s in a cheap Japanese truck. 4-cylinder, manual transmission, RWD, standard suspension. Sure, I can believe that the Maverick is less capable in some ways. But in others, there is no comparison. At all.
Modern expensive trucks are amazing, but that is also part of why they are expensive. You are being tricked into thinking the cost is 100% due to the fancy add-ons. It isn't. And when Toyota comes out with their small unibody truck (2024 or 2025), reviewers will gush and swoon over it. And most of those reviewer complaints about the Maverick being mediocre will fade away (or at least "not apply" to the Toyota version). At these prices, you don't get to do what an F150 or Silverado or Tundra does.
Modern expensive trucks are amazing, but that is also part of why they are expensive. You are being tricked into thinking the cost is 100% due to the fancy add-ons. It isn't. And when Toyota comes out with their small unibody truck (2024 or 2025), reviewers will gush and swoon over it. And most of those reviewer complaints about the Maverick being mediocre will fade away (or at least "not apply" to the Toyota version). At these prices, you don't get to do what an F150 or Silverado or Tundra does.
It's a front wheel drive unibody. Depending on your definition it isn't actually a truck. That's what I mean by mediocre and lacking capability. Not the extra options you can get on a King Ranch or Raptor. But the core essence of a truck. When I compare the Maverick to previous small, affordable trucks I'm not comparing it to a stripped out F-150. I'm comparing it to a Chevy S-10 or Ford Ranger.
I read also read reviews, and while I agree with your conclusions I also think the reviewers still loved it! Mediocre in that you don't get many bells and whistles, less capable because you have a smaller bed, lower towing capacity, and can't be beat to hell like some older trucks. But affordability, size, and utility make it a hit.
Actually I meant mediocre and less capable in that its a fwd unibody and not a body on frame rwd truck. An affordable truck wont have a lot of options. But I consider those two design choices to be kind of core to what a real truck is. A fwd unibody platform is ultimately a car wearing a truck's clothing. Just like crossovers may look like SUVs but when conditions get bad and Karen tries to go up an icey incline and finds out it in fact isn't.
My benchmark with affordable trucks will be past models like the S-10 and Ranger. Those were small, light on options but still trucks with proper frames and a rwd drivetrain.
My benchmark with affordable trucks will be past models like the S-10 and Ranger. Those were small, light on options but still trucks with proper frames and a rwd drivetrain.
A part or a feature can’t fail if the car doesn’t have it. In this way, simple vehicles have an inherent advantage.
Simplify the vehicle by removing all the gimmicky crap that they use to justify charging extra, and it gets more reliable? Crazy...
The government should not ban gas-powered vehicles and force people to buy the "least reliable vehicle type", as California and other states are doing.
Gas powered vehicles still have utility in rural areas. But in the suburbs and especially in the cities? EV is the least-worst option. Pedestrians, bicycles, and mass transit should be the focus in suburbs and cities.
An increase in 'flex fuel' vehicles, and converting more household and commercial ICE to accomodate flex fuel (E85, etc) would provide a smoother transition. We collectively seem to have simply dropped any interest in this, despite having some infrastructure in place already, and burning cleaner than existing petrol.
These are 2022 models. No states are forcing people to buy these. California will be forcing people to buy the 2035 models, for which reliability ratings don’t yet exist
California's ban doesn't start for new vehicles for 13 years. That's a very long time in this context.
https://www.which.co.uk/ has the details, but you need to be a member to find out. Basically the fit, finish and reliability of the accessories were trash.