Ask HN: Feeling Hopeless and Lost at 23
Friends keep telling me I should stfu and stop complaining but I'm genuinely depressed and looking for constructive feedback. I failed out of my universities CS program and ended up doing philosophy with a double minor in math and stats. It's my fault. I got cocky. My university is extremely cut throat when it comes to the CS program so even if I wouldn't have gotten in with really pushing myself, I would not be complaining right now. I failed intro to CS twice and passed on the 3rd try with a 52. Switched to philosophy after taking being put on suspension. Recovered my GPA (a bit) and finished university last year. Even though I shat the bed with university, I did a lot of hackathons, audited courses because of pure interest (through MIT open courseware), and getting internships. I ended up joining Shopify as a fullstack. But now, I really want to go back to school and learn things the traditional way because it feels too overwhelming. I can't work in the states because of tn visa regulations. My gpa is pathetic because of the failed courses in early years. I really don't have the patience to start a second degree at a third tier college/university because it's pointless to do so. I want to get into one of those online masters programs but let's be honest, with a pathetic 2.44 cgpa there is no way any masters program is gonna let me in. Seeking advice on what to do at this point
72 comments
Computer science, as it is taught, is almost entirely divorced from an actual software engineering career.
Very few hiring managers are going to care about your GPA or the specifics of what degrees you have, if you demonstrate the skills needed for the role. In my opinion, every year of real, intentional, work experience is easily worth as much as a bachelors degree.
You already have a degree of any kind, an important prerequisite to most positions, and a real job in industry. That is MORE than plenty to kick start a successful career doing any kind of job you want. Just keep at it.
> really want to go back to school
> I want to get into one of those online masters programs
I would advise you push your life the other direction. Go out into the working world and code (or project manage, or consult, or whatever else you want to do) as much as you can professionally. More school takes you away from your goal, not closer to it.
Your focus now (and forever) is years of experience (with relevant technologies to a job you want), not highest degree achieved.
Very few hiring managers are going to care about your GPA or the specifics of what degrees you have, if you demonstrate the skills needed for the role. In my opinion, every year of real, intentional, work experience is easily worth as much as a bachelors degree.
You already have a degree of any kind, an important prerequisite to most positions, and a real job in industry. That is MORE than plenty to kick start a successful career doing any kind of job you want. Just keep at it.
> really want to go back to school
> I want to get into one of those online masters programs
I would advise you push your life the other direction. Go out into the working world and code (or project manage, or consult, or whatever else you want to do) as much as you can professionally. More school takes you away from your goal, not closer to it.
Your focus now (and forever) is years of experience (with relevant technologies to a job you want), not highest degree achieved.
100% this.
> I ended up joining Shopify as a Fullstack
You're already employed. After you have work experience, not a single employer will care about your GPA or your degree. Some of my best coworkers were high school graduates.
The real problem you have, from what it seems, is you are holding your standard of success and happiness to an external metric that you have little control over, like getting the "right" degree or doing a masters program. Define your happiness by what career fulfillment means to you.
Going back to school would be great if that's what you truly wanted to do. But it doesn't seem like that's what you want to do, otherwise you would be doing it :)
> I ended up joining Shopify as a Fullstack
You're already employed. After you have work experience, not a single employer will care about your GPA or your degree. Some of my best coworkers were high school graduates.
The real problem you have, from what it seems, is you are holding your standard of success and happiness to an external metric that you have little control over, like getting the "right" degree or doing a masters program. Define your happiness by what career fulfillment means to you.
Going back to school would be great if that's what you truly wanted to do. But it doesn't seem like that's what you want to do, otherwise you would be doing it :)
Heavily agree. Be sure to concentrate on making connections with top tier devs at work. You landed a role at a world class technology company. You are likely surrounded by amazing talent. The skills and network you will build at your job will dwarf any master’s degree.
I agree. Unless you want to pivot out of being a full stack engineer, I don't think university will help much (I'm a professor).
Your work experience is the only thing that matters for employment after graduating. I would recommend not putting your GPA on your resume and you may want to put employment history before even listing your degree.
Your work experience is the only thing that matters for employment after graduating. I would recommend not putting your GPA on your resume and you may want to put employment history before even listing your degree.
You probably need to see a psychologist of some kind.
You can't see it, but looking from the outside from someone who's had to deal with psychological demons, it's blaring straight through your post.
There is no shame in it whatsoever. If you get a good one, they can lead you on a path to repairing damage you may not be aware you've taken on, and help you toward building an ordered mind that has a solid direction.
Just try a few, because like most professions, only about 1 in 3 are worth the time and money.
Without any other details, and not being a psychologist, I might guess you had a family member who demanded high academic performance, and demeaned your value if you didn't present it, which might have put you in a place where you both rebel (as evidenced by the bad grades), and feel drawn to do as was wished of you (participate in academic pursuits).
It sounds like you need to develop a clearer sense of self, one that comes from something aligned with what you actually wanted to do, rather than something that was demanded of you.
Other than consulting with a psychological professional, you might consider doing some international travel, to refresh your mind.
You can't see it, but looking from the outside from someone who's had to deal with psychological demons, it's blaring straight through your post.
There is no shame in it whatsoever. If you get a good one, they can lead you on a path to repairing damage you may not be aware you've taken on, and help you toward building an ordered mind that has a solid direction.
Just try a few, because like most professions, only about 1 in 3 are worth the time and money.
Without any other details, and not being a psychologist, I might guess you had a family member who demanded high academic performance, and demeaned your value if you didn't present it, which might have put you in a place where you both rebel (as evidenced by the bad grades), and feel drawn to do as was wished of you (participate in academic pursuits).
It sounds like you need to develop a clearer sense of self, one that comes from something aligned with what you actually wanted to do, rather than something that was demanded of you.
Other than consulting with a psychological professional, you might consider doing some international travel, to refresh your mind.
I don't feel like I am in a position to do a recommendation here, but I agree that already the title implicates that this is something to talk about with a professional. Since this probably will not be possible in the short term, it might be worth a try to look into some cognitive therapy literature. For me, these made a difference:
- David Burns: Feeling good - The new mood therapy
- Martin Seligmann: Learned Optimism
And that I actually would recommend to everyone ...
- David Burns: Feeling good - The new mood therapy
- Martin Seligmann: Learned Optimism
And that I actually would recommend to everyone ...
You need to see a psychiatrist. You are ill and the solution has little or nothing to do with shutting tfu. You cannot solve this problem alone, I believe. You do need help.
I guess you are having a hard time with money also. Try and find some charity which might help you. But I live in Spain and do not know what to suggest.
My prayers, that’s all I can offer.
DEPRESSION LIES.
I guess you are having a hard time with money also. Try and find some charity which might help you. But I live in Spain and do not know what to suggest.
My prayers, that’s all I can offer.
DEPRESSION LIES.
This. Seek help, psychotherapist is also a good option. I had similar struggles, and I stfu and sucked it up. Only many years into my career did I do this and learn about my struggles and now life is on easy mode.
Could you describe the difference between hard mode and easy mode and how you were able to transition and stay transitioned?
This is an interesting perspective. My takeaway from the OP was not "depressed" in a clinical way--and I certainly could be wrong there. But I thought it was more a case of being young, overly focused on university, and needing to get out and live a bit. If it IS clinical depression, then your advice is excellent.
Can’t hurt to get a psychiatrist. FWIW this sounds like textbook depression to me. OP has a great job at 23 and sounds 100% focused on failing classes in college
Yes, it is probably not as severe as I put it, but I do think seeing a doctor would do no harm (hopefully).
I don't personally think it has anything to do with clinical depression, but a combination of youthful ego (not accepting defeat in any task you need to complete or compete with), and most probably an undiagnosed ADHD.
I'm talking from a personal experience that went unnoticed for 35 years, until I was diagnosed with HSP (Highly Sensitive Personality) with traits of ADHD leaning towards Asperger's Syndrome, after I realized something is very wrong with me and my emotions.
I could be wrong of course and indeed OP needs medical help, but I believe he or she stresses out with every right to do so, as he / she deals with full-stack development lol!
I have been there my self with full-stack and decided it's too much for me and switched to back-end development.
I'm talking from a personal experience that went unnoticed for 35 years, until I was diagnosed with HSP (Highly Sensitive Personality) with traits of ADHD leaning towards Asperger's Syndrome, after I realized something is very wrong with me and my emotions.
I could be wrong of course and indeed OP needs medical help, but I believe he or she stresses out with every right to do so, as he / she deals with full-stack development lol!
I have been there my self with full-stack and decided it's too much for me and switched to back-end development.
You are probably right. As a matter of fact, I was hesitant to use the term “depression” but did not know how to frame it right. Your view is more plausible. Medical help, for sure.
Take a break. I’m in the US, so these examples might not be an option if you can’t come here, but replace them with your local equivalent.
Some suggestions: do something like Recurse[0] if you want to continue focusing on programming in a new lower-stress environment, or do something totally different for a while. Hike the Appalachian Trail, build houses with Habitat for Humanity, learn another (human, not programming) language. Get a job as a Park Ranger for a year.
When you’re 23 it can feel like life is a series of stepping stones and if you slip off one you’ll drown (or at least it did for me), but it turns out that we’re pretty fault-tolerant. I dropped out of college, jumped around between being a forklift driver, barista, bartender, and sommelier for the next decade, backpacked in the woods for a while, then started working in tech when I was in my 30s. It’s all worked out fine and I think my life is richer for taking a slightly more meandering path.
[0] https://www.recurse.com/
Some suggestions: do something like Recurse[0] if you want to continue focusing on programming in a new lower-stress environment, or do something totally different for a while. Hike the Appalachian Trail, build houses with Habitat for Humanity, learn another (human, not programming) language. Get a job as a Park Ranger for a year.
When you’re 23 it can feel like life is a series of stepping stones and if you slip off one you’ll drown (or at least it did for me), but it turns out that we’re pretty fault-tolerant. I dropped out of college, jumped around between being a forklift driver, barista, bartender, and sommelier for the next decade, backpacked in the woods for a while, then started working in tech when I was in my 30s. It’s all worked out fine and I think my life is richer for taking a slightly more meandering path.
[0] https://www.recurse.com/
> I really want to go back to school and learn things the traditional way because it feels too overwhelming.
Studying Computer Science for the sake of learning is great, but if the issue is that you're feeling overwhelmed in a practical coding job, I doubt you're going to learn the types of things that would really help you figure out the basics of the job that you probably don't already know.
It's been a long time since I've been in school, but I doubt that they're going to focus too much on practical things you'll see on the job like how to use X feature in Y popular web framework, or how to do Z with React.
But as with any life choices, do whatever makes you happiest.
Studying Computer Science for the sake of learning is great, but if the issue is that you're feeling overwhelmed in a practical coding job, I doubt you're going to learn the types of things that would really help you figure out the basics of the job that you probably don't already know.
It's been a long time since I've been in school, but I doubt that they're going to focus too much on practical things you'll see on the job like how to use X feature in Y popular web framework, or how to do Z with React.
But as with any life choices, do whatever makes you happiest.
I got a 2.21 in Civil Engineering (waaaay back in 1992, but my experience is still relevant). You have a _double_major_. That’s a lot of work.
Know who cared about the GPA in my Civil Engineering degree (which I never used?)
Nobody.
I got a job writing engineering software for the Dept of Transportation and it never came up again.
I loved computers, had a computing bent tom my degree (Mechanics of Composite materials was a software dev course, and I loved it.)
I discovered after the fact that I took CE because I didn’t ‘get’ ME and EE, and I didn’t go into CompSci, because I didn’t want to listen to tell me I was wrong.
It all turned out okay. Know the local crowd, network in the field, keep doing the things that interest you…don’t get hung up on your GPA, nobody else will.
Know who cared about the GPA in my Civil Engineering degree (which I never used?)
Nobody.
I got a job writing engineering software for the Dept of Transportation and it never came up again.
I loved computers, had a computing bent tom my degree (Mechanics of Composite materials was a software dev course, and I loved it.)
I discovered after the fact that I took CE because I didn’t ‘get’ ME and EE, and I didn’t go into CompSci, because I didn’t want to listen to tell me I was wrong.
It all turned out okay. Know the local crowd, network in the field, keep doing the things that interest you…don’t get hung up on your GPA, nobody else will.
> I really want to go back to school and learn things the traditional way because it feels too overwhelming.
But it sounds like school was overwhelming, too?
If you’re working at Shopify as a full stack at 23, you’re on your way. Nice work!
I would recommend this: if the upset you’re feeling is because reality isn’t matching your preconceived ideas, realize you can let go of those ideas. That shift makes life much more pleasant, if it’s available to you. OTOH, if it’s not so simple for you, then as others have pointed out see if you can find someone to work with you (coach, mentor, or maybe psychologist etc) to help you clear your head. Whether you go back to school or not, you’ll benefit from this.
We are wishing you well!
But it sounds like school was overwhelming, too?
If you’re working at Shopify as a full stack at 23, you’re on your way. Nice work!
I would recommend this: if the upset you’re feeling is because reality isn’t matching your preconceived ideas, realize you can let go of those ideas. That shift makes life much more pleasant, if it’s available to you. OTOH, if it’s not so simple for you, then as others have pointed out see if you can find someone to work with you (coach, mentor, or maybe psychologist etc) to help you clear your head. Whether you go back to school or not, you’ll benefit from this.
We are wishing you well!
Well the good news is the most obvious problem you don’t need a degree to solve: self-judgement. You did not perform to a standard you were happy with, ambitious people rarely do, but don’t beat yourself up about it. If your internal narrative readily uses terms like “pathetic” then any time you underperform you’ll feel very bad, and you’ll wonder if failure is another datapoint describing some fundamental flaw. It’s not. Thinking in this way makes you far less robust. To make progress and be happy you have to be happy and proud of yourself now, of the things you’ve already done.
You’re clearly a very impressive person. You took a negative path, turned it around and got a great job. They don’t hand those out. Everyone feels overwhelmed by challenging roles - I’d recommend doing more work to understand if your feeling of being out of your depth is shared or typical among your colleagues before deciding that you need to back out and seek more education. You have a chip on your shoulder about not succeeding in your CS program and so your narrative will easily point to that for your feelings of overwhelm, but it’s much more likely that you’re just in a challenging job, and if you could get the job with the degree you got, then if you keep working and learning in 12 months you’re going to be feeling a lot better and very accomplished.
You should be impressed with yourself. I am. Don’t back down.
You’re clearly a very impressive person. You took a negative path, turned it around and got a great job. They don’t hand those out. Everyone feels overwhelmed by challenging roles - I’d recommend doing more work to understand if your feeling of being out of your depth is shared or typical among your colleagues before deciding that you need to back out and seek more education. You have a chip on your shoulder about not succeeding in your CS program and so your narrative will easily point to that for your feelings of overwhelm, but it’s much more likely that you’re just in a challenging job, and if you could get the job with the degree you got, then if you keep working and learning in 12 months you’re going to be feeling a lot better and very accomplished.
You should be impressed with yourself. I am. Don’t back down.
Words are powerful. Every word you speak is a form of self hypnosis. Here are a list of the awful things you just said about yourself that you should never say again:
- I’m genuinely depressed
- I failed
- I wouldn’t have gotten in
- I sh*t the bed
- It feels too overwhelming
- I can’t work in the States
- My GPA is pathetic
- I don’t have the patience
- It’s pointless
- There’s no way any masters program is gonna let me in
Anyone would feel depressed and useless if they spoke about themself like that all the time. So stop speaking like that. Only ever say good things about yourself. Even if some of those things are objective truths, it doesn’t give you power to say them.
You have a job at Shopify. That’s awesome. All software development is hard. Expect to feel overwhelmed. That’s why we usually get paid good money. Plus it’s good to feel overwhelmed because when you come out the other side it means you learnt a whole lot.
My advice: stop talking to yourself like this and start telling yourself how amazing you are.
Imagine if every morning you do just 100 push-ups then look yourself in the mirror and say “I am The Man!” If you don’t believe that to be true, as proof you can simply walk down the street and know that probably no one else did 100 push-ups that morning. Do that every day and eventually you’ll believe that you really are “The Man”.
You should try that for at least a week and then see how you feel.
Anyone would feel depressed and useless if they spoke about themself like that all the time. So stop speaking like that. Only ever say good things about yourself. Even if some of those things are objective truths, it doesn’t give you power to say them.
You have a job at Shopify. That’s awesome. All software development is hard. Expect to feel overwhelmed. That’s why we usually get paid good money. Plus it’s good to feel overwhelmed because when you come out the other side it means you learnt a whole lot.
My advice: stop talking to yourself like this and start telling yourself how amazing you are.
Imagine if every morning you do just 100 push-ups then look yourself in the mirror and say “I am The Man!” If you don’t believe that to be true, as proof you can simply walk down the street and know that probably no one else did 100 push-ups that morning. Do that every day and eventually you’ll believe that you really are “The Man”.
You should try that for at least a week and then see how you feel.
During university I went from top 10 in my class to bottom quartile. I let the entire thing unravel and I couldn’t get into a master’s program with my grades and ended up working at a bank in IT at CIBC. IT as in fixing computers and installing Windows, not programming. Yes my ego was bruised too after university. Accept that it happened and FORGIVE YOURSELF.
All my friends that I was much smarter than got way better jobs. I interviewed at IBM and they gave me an aptitude test and the scorer said that I scored the highest he had ever seen from a university grad. But I didn’t get the job because I didn’t have enough experience in programming. I felt like shit. But you have to just persevere.
I studied my ass off after work and taught myself how to program. After 2 years of teaching myself I applied to for a programming job at Rogers and lied, saying I was programming at CIBC, and got my foot in the door as a programmer.
I worked there 2 years and then managed to get a job in the US and yadda yadda yadda, I’m at a FAANG.
Stop looking in the past.
You got into Shopify which has legit resume value. As a hiring manager I would not even notice if you had a math degree or CS degree, no one cares. Your Shopify experience trumps all. No one ever asked me about my GPA after I got experience.
You can get into the US via transfer or via H1B. Right now no one is hiring anyway but once they do in a year or two, your Shopify experience is more valuable. Just work your ass off at Shopify and have big impact and you will be rewarded.
All my friends that I was much smarter than got way better jobs. I interviewed at IBM and they gave me an aptitude test and the scorer said that I scored the highest he had ever seen from a university grad. But I didn’t get the job because I didn’t have enough experience in programming. I felt like shit. But you have to just persevere.
I studied my ass off after work and taught myself how to program. After 2 years of teaching myself I applied to for a programming job at Rogers and lied, saying I was programming at CIBC, and got my foot in the door as a programmer.
I worked there 2 years and then managed to get a job in the US and yadda yadda yadda, I’m at a FAANG.
Stop looking in the past.
You got into Shopify which has legit resume value. As a hiring manager I would not even notice if you had a math degree or CS degree, no one cares. Your Shopify experience trumps all. No one ever asked me about my GPA after I got experience.
You can get into the US via transfer or via H1B. Right now no one is hiring anyway but once they do in a year or two, your Shopify experience is more valuable. Just work your ass off at Shopify and have big impact and you will be rewarded.
OP, you're not alone. I'm 24 and struggle every day with what direction I want to go in. I do have a bit of advice:
- Like others have said, dispel the notion that traditional university is worth the cost. It's completely detached from reality, and if you have experience as a full-stack, that's already worth way more to a college degree, to me at least.
- You obviously have ambition, joining hackathons, auditing courses, and getting internships. That goes a really, really long way in this world.
I'd advise what others have in this thread, go out and explore a bit. Take a break! I should be following my own advice in this regard, but I'm a bit of a worry-wart/anxiety-ridden/overly-responsible-to-a-fault individual so it's a bit of a chasm for me to cross, but if you can do it I would absolutely recommend it.
The advice I give everyone is to find a problem you're passionate about solving, because most likely, especially if that problem is a well-known one, you have the foundations of a really solid project and life goal.
- Like others have said, dispel the notion that traditional university is worth the cost. It's completely detached from reality, and if you have experience as a full-stack, that's already worth way more to a college degree, to me at least.
- You obviously have ambition, joining hackathons, auditing courses, and getting internships. That goes a really, really long way in this world.
I'd advise what others have in this thread, go out and explore a bit. Take a break! I should be following my own advice in this regard, but I'm a bit of a worry-wart/anxiety-ridden/overly-responsible-to-a-fault individual so it's a bit of a chasm for me to cross, but if you can do it I would absolutely recommend it.
The advice I give everyone is to find a problem you're passionate about solving, because most likely, especially if that problem is a well-known one, you have the foundations of a really solid project and life goal.
See others' advice on seeking professional help.
In my opinion, don't put too much effort into schooling if you want to code. Learn and build. Join a startup if you want to learn to touch a bit of everything, or build your own project if you want to learn to fail and still progress.
Also, what I can say from my experience, is that people that I know that felt lost and depressed around your age are the most interesting people I know today. They're still lost, in the sense that they haven't figured out what they want to be when they grow up (even though they're 40+). They just learned to use and channel their energy and creativity and turn it into positive for them and those around them.
In my opinion, don't put too much effort into schooling if you want to code. Learn and build. Join a startup if you want to learn to touch a bit of everything, or build your own project if you want to learn to fail and still progress.
Also, what I can say from my experience, is that people that I know that felt lost and depressed around your age are the most interesting people I know today. They're still lost, in the sense that they haven't figured out what they want to be when they grow up (even though they're 40+). They just learned to use and channel their energy and creativity and turn it into positive for them and those around them.
I was lost and hopeless at 23. At that time I had flunked out of two schools, married, had a kid ( reason for marriage ) had wife run off. When I turned 24 I was fired from my first real job, and then a few weeks later I quit drinking. 12 years later I recieved a Computer engineering degree. It has not been a dream life, but then again it has :) I was quite lucky many times. I also worked relatvely hard a fair amount. Life is hard, but it beats the alternative. My number one tool is: Gratitude. Good luck my freind. I am grateful that despite some issues, you have persevered and picked up a degree.
I guess my question is: why do you want to go back to school? It seems like you would get a TON of practical experience spending that time at Shopify. In most situations having a few years of work at a well-known company is going to be worth infinitely more than a degree. And if you just want to learn for learning's sake, you can always continue with free options.
The most important thing to remember is that there are no bad choices here. If you pick any of these paths, and focus on the things you enjoy, you will be fine.
The most important thing to remember is that there are no bad choices here. If you pick any of these paths, and focus on the things you enjoy, you will be fine.
I have a similar experience (effectively failed out of CS and ended up with an BA in philosophy + minor in CS). For me it was the math courses more than anything else, I wasn’t interested, and preferred to spend my time snowboarding and partying. Did a bunch of hackathons and landed a handful of software engineering jobs and startups in quick succession trying to figure out what I wanted to do.
I didn’t have your visa situation and don’t know your financial situation. If you have the flexibility I’d recommend figuring out the things you would like to learn, find a startup (or company) that’s willing to hire you and spend time getting good at it on the clock. It worked well for me. I had pretty bad work life balance at the time, didn’t make anywhere as much money as I could have had I grinded out FAANG interviews but I don’t regret my path.
I’d caution against going and getting an advanced degree unless you really have no idea what you want and feel like that’s the only way you’ll get enough expose to different stuff to figure that out. I truthfully don’t think getting the degree will make a difference if you are a decent engineer and willing to put the work in. It just takes up more time getting you real world experience and takes more money.
FWIW I have little to no regrets about my path. It would have been nice to have made more money and I definitely have some gaps in my CS education but honestly, I loved my Philosophy program and had a blast in college. I have great relationships and friends I made there and am now in my mid 30s with a successful career that I’m really happy with on track to retire in my 40s-50s if I want.
I didn’t have your visa situation and don’t know your financial situation. If you have the flexibility I’d recommend figuring out the things you would like to learn, find a startup (or company) that’s willing to hire you and spend time getting good at it on the clock. It worked well for me. I had pretty bad work life balance at the time, didn’t make anywhere as much money as I could have had I grinded out FAANG interviews but I don’t regret my path.
I’d caution against going and getting an advanced degree unless you really have no idea what you want and feel like that’s the only way you’ll get enough expose to different stuff to figure that out. I truthfully don’t think getting the degree will make a difference if you are a decent engineer and willing to put the work in. It just takes up more time getting you real world experience and takes more money.
FWIW I have little to no regrets about my path. It would have been nice to have made more money and I definitely have some gaps in my CS education but honestly, I loved my Philosophy program and had a blast in college. I have great relationships and friends I made there and am now in my mid 30s with a successful career that I’m really happy with on track to retire in my 40s-50s if I want.
Thank you everyone for all the feedback and support. I'm not overwhelmed at work but it just feels like I'm playing catch-up with colleagues. Like knowledge of DBs kubernetes, production engineering stuff, I always thought upper year CS courses would teach all this stuff. But clearly from the comments it seems I have a warped understanding of school. I think I need to take a step back and get professional help because a masters program is not going to solve my anxieties.
Yes. Focus on doing the best work you can at your job. Ask to be placed on teams that are willing to teach you or at least have documentation. No one cares about your GPA. In the future they will only care about your productivity and if you can manage the office politics and BS. If you can keep your head on your shoulders and get your work done without emotionally draining your teammates, you are ahead of most people.
"it just feels like I'm playing catch-up with colleagues"
That's what it is like when you're straight out of school in any company that has people who've been working as software engineers longer than you.
This is completely normal. It'll take time to get comfortable.
What really matters is are you growing in your role. Are your bosses/colleagues helping you get better. If not, go work some place else.
It's tough to get started in this industry. There's too much to learn. University programs don't really prepare you for the real world...at least they didn't when I graduated.
That's what it is like when you're straight out of school in any company that has people who've been working as software engineers longer than you.
This is completely normal. It'll take time to get comfortable.
What really matters is are you growing in your role. Are your bosses/colleagues helping you get better. If not, go work some place else.
It's tough to get started in this industry. There's too much to learn. University programs don't really prepare you for the real world...at least they didn't when I graduated.
In Dune they repeat the mantra “fear is the mind killer”.
In real life it is anxiety: that is the true mind killer, which prevents you from taking that “step back” because there is always something pressing up. Do get some help and do not ever COMPARE yourself to others. What matters is how you live your life NOT how it compares to others.
Good luck and find some help for your anxiety.
In real life it is anxiety: that is the true mind killer, which prevents you from taking that “step back” because there is always something pressing up. Do get some help and do not ever COMPARE yourself to others. What matters is how you live your life NOT how it compares to others.
Good luck and find some help for your anxiety.
First, you may want to consider searching for similar discussion on academia.stackexchange.com .
Now, wanting to study Comp Sci more deeply is a valid (and commendable) wish. You seem to be describing (at least) three issues:
* You also seem not to be satisfied with self-study, such as "auditing" courses. Is that because of the lack of instructor feedback? The lack of challenge of pressure/stress and face-to-face interaction? Difficult with the self-discipline required for a study schedule?
* ... You did not indicate whether you're interested in doing more research, rathet than just studying more advanced material. M.Sc. programs often involve both.
* Your low GPA as a barrier to entry. Try to offset it by working on some interesting/useful FOSS (not just for the sake of having done so!); if you can show you have written decent code and that people are using it, this should offset something like a low grade in an introductory programming course. Doing this may also help you with "bankable" skills.
* If it's research you're after, don't just try to "enroll"; look for research groups which do something you're interested in.
Now, wanting to study Comp Sci more deeply is a valid (and commendable) wish. You seem to be describing (at least) three issues:
* You also seem not to be satisfied with self-study, such as "auditing" courses. Is that because of the lack of instructor feedback? The lack of challenge of pressure/stress and face-to-face interaction? Difficult with the self-discipline required for a study schedule?
* ... You did not indicate whether you're interested in doing more research, rathet than just studying more advanced material. M.Sc. programs often involve both.
* Your low GPA as a barrier to entry. Try to offset it by working on some interesting/useful FOSS (not just for the sake of having done so!); if you can show you have written decent code and that people are using it, this should offset something like a low grade in an introductory programming course. Doing this may also help you with "bankable" skills.
* If it's research you're after, don't just try to "enroll"; look for research groups which do something you're interested in.
In directionless periods of my life, talking to the right person for 20-30 minutes was sometimes what I really needed.
For you, or anybody that feels like this, schedule a phone call with me!
I don't have all the answers, but I love chatting with strangers about setting goals and learning skills :)
https://calendly.com/taylor-town/30min
For you, or anybody that feels like this, schedule a phone call with me!
I don't have all the answers, but I love chatting with strangers about setting goals and learning skills :)
https://calendly.com/taylor-town/30min
> But now, I really want to go back to school and learn things the traditional way because it feels too overwhelming.
Why does it feel overwhelming?
And what do you picture as the traditional way of learning software engineering in school? My experience has been that there isn't really a traditional way. Different schools teach software engineering or "computer science" differently, as its a fairly new subject. So I don't know what the traditional way is, or how much of it is even relevant to the industry.
I never graduated myself. I studied math, dropped out, and started working in software. So IMO whatever the traditional way of learning software either does not exist or is potentially overrated. I'm not even sure there's much of value you're going to learn at school other than something about Big O Notation, which you don't need to pay tens of thousands of dollars to learn. Just my opinion though.
Not knowing you, it sounds like you're overwhelmed by a bunch of other stuff (e.g., the way you talk about your GPA), not just your job.
Why does it feel overwhelming?
And what do you picture as the traditional way of learning software engineering in school? My experience has been that there isn't really a traditional way. Different schools teach software engineering or "computer science" differently, as its a fairly new subject. So I don't know what the traditional way is, or how much of it is even relevant to the industry.
I never graduated myself. I studied math, dropped out, and started working in software. So IMO whatever the traditional way of learning software either does not exist or is potentially overrated. I'm not even sure there's much of value you're going to learn at school other than something about Big O Notation, which you don't need to pay tens of thousands of dollars to learn. Just my opinion though.
Not knowing you, it sounds like you're overwhelmed by a bunch of other stuff (e.g., the way you talk about your GPA), not just your job.
Sounds like those early "failures" are weighing on you and becoming
baggage. You're a successful hacker (full stack at a decent commercial
shop) and judging yourself a little too harshly. Is it maybe through
the eyes of someone _else_ who wanted you to get the CS degree? (It's
not uncommon for me to see students with an invisible/imaginary mother
or father still in the frame, declaring their 'disappointment')
BTW, philosophy is the "master science". I had to work my way up to it after doing CS/EE. With 30 years of on/off academic experience at dozens of institutions I can tell you, none of those institutions are really fit to judge you. Modern universities have become a certificate racket. That's not to suggest you reject the knowledge good professors can give you, or devalue what a coherent CS programme can bring - but seriously you have a lifetime to self-study these as soon as you stop fretting about validation. Hope you see brighter horizons soon.
BTW, philosophy is the "master science". I had to work my way up to it after doing CS/EE. With 30 years of on/off academic experience at dozens of institutions I can tell you, none of those institutions are really fit to judge you. Modern universities have become a certificate racket. That's not to suggest you reject the knowledge good professors can give you, or devalue what a coherent CS programme can bring - but seriously you have a lifetime to self-study these as soon as you stop fretting about validation. Hope you see brighter horizons soon.
Your experience is becoming the norm more and more. Be kind to yourself, first. I am a data engineer with a decade of experience, and I turn 30 this year. I was a "gifted and talented" kid who "fell off the boat" as far as external perspectives were concerned. In reality I was undiagnosed ADHD, with a few other personality disorders, and having hard-ass parents made a recipe for disaster. I left school with a semester to go, and similar GPA because I realized I never wanted to be there in the first place. Fortunately I had a lot of practical skills, building a career has been easy compared to any difficult times I remember in school. Being kind to myself in the last 5 years has been the biggest help though.
You have self awareness, lean into that. You don't seem like you're making excuses, but if you dwell for too long you'll get there fast. Just keep moving forward, improving, and try to make each day better than the last one. It's all we can do.
You have self awareness, lean into that. You don't seem like you're making excuses, but if you dwell for too long you'll get there fast. Just keep moving forward, improving, and try to make each day better than the last one. It's all we can do.
I always wanted to be a programmer, but coming from a poor family and from Eastern Europe, it was not really an option in my twenties. Of course you learn programming from books and blog posts. It worked. However, I never gave up my dream, so I just ended up in a master program when I was 40. Finished it part time and got my Computer Science Master when I was 45. Also, having real world experience helped a lot learning the theory, because you already know how to use it in practice. ;)
To be honest, when I was in my twenties, I just wanted to work and being "serious" grown-up. Being student when you are 40+ is much more fun and you really enjoy every second of it. Exams are amazing, home-works are challenging, a lot of fun!
You don't have to do everything right now. The most important is that always do what you would enjoy, do things what you really like. Life is long!
To be honest, when I was in my twenties, I just wanted to work and being "serious" grown-up. Being student when you are 40+ is much more fun and you really enjoy every second of it. Exams are amazing, home-works are challenging, a lot of fun!
You don't have to do everything right now. The most important is that always do what you would enjoy, do things what you really like. Life is long!
[deleted]
Dude, none of that matters!
You are essentially here to experience the world and therefore the bad experiences count to buuuut this is far from the end of the line.
You can still become one of the greatest programmers the world has ever seen.
I chose to study economical psychology instead of computer science, because, truth be told, comp-sci you can learn in your free time. I have been taught by many people over the years and just kept on rolling with the craft. By now I have 20 years of experience and specialize in Kubernetes, which has not even been invented when i went to college.
Live is full of challenges, that is what makes it worth it. If you really want to become a coder, than the challenges ahead can be solved by educating yourself, interacting with others and just throwing code against the wall.
As for your current job, you definitely should not start out as a full stack. Stuff will click for you by itself with time.
You are essentially here to experience the world and therefore the bad experiences count to buuuut this is far from the end of the line.
You can still become one of the greatest programmers the world has ever seen.
I chose to study economical psychology instead of computer science, because, truth be told, comp-sci you can learn in your free time. I have been taught by many people over the years and just kept on rolling with the craft. By now I have 20 years of experience and specialize in Kubernetes, which has not even been invented when i went to college.
Live is full of challenges, that is what makes it worth it. If you really want to become a coder, than the challenges ahead can be solved by educating yourself, interacting with others and just throwing code against the wall.
As for your current job, you definitely should not start out as a full stack. Stuff will click for you by itself with time.
[deleted]
Life can have purpose, and a sense of peaceful progress, that is not completely wound up in career, but can be served by one's career. I wrote a lot more at my web site (in profile; tech-simple; no sales), like under "Things I want to say" (about in the middle), then "Purpose in life...".
(But be sure to read the 1st bullet on the main page ("HOW TO READ THIS SITE"), or it might seem like awkward formatting.)
(Also, career and education-wise, there are so many resources, as some you have noted, to just learn, in a way that helps you be more effective. I don't know if Western Governors University is available where you are, but there are the courses and materials out there to become more able, as you may desire.)
(But be sure to read the 1st bullet on the main page ("HOW TO READ THIS SITE"), or it might seem like awkward formatting.)
(Also, career and education-wise, there are so many resources, as some you have noted, to just learn, in a way that helps you be more effective. I don't know if Western Governors University is available where you are, but there are the courses and materials out there to become more able, as you may desire.)
I did terribly at my first degree. I was just more interested in partying.
I did not manage to get such a great job as you have landed, and I was in the wilderness for quite a few years.
Eventually, after building myself back up from nothing, I got better and better jobs. Eventually I did an MSc which I was accepted into as I could demonstrate I was capable. I worked hard at it, and got a distinction.
So all I can offer to you is that things are not as terrible as they may seem now. Failure can be a great motivator if you learn the right lessons from it rather than indulging in beating yourself up.
As an aside, you may genuinely have depression and should seek advice on how to deal with that. I have suffered with anxiety problems too, and seeking help is half the battle.
I did not manage to get such a great job as you have landed, and I was in the wilderness for quite a few years.
Eventually, after building myself back up from nothing, I got better and better jobs. Eventually I did an MSc which I was accepted into as I could demonstrate I was capable. I worked hard at it, and got a distinction.
So all I can offer to you is that things are not as terrible as they may seem now. Failure can be a great motivator if you learn the right lessons from it rather than indulging in beating yourself up.
As an aside, you may genuinely have depression and should seek advice on how to deal with that. I have suffered with anxiety problems too, and seeking help is half the battle.
Ha, the same story as mine more or less; yet here I am lol!
Never get disappointed my friend, there is always a solution; plus, you are only 23 years old, don't forget it!
My degree is CS but offers me absolutely nothing, trust me on that!
If there is a way to chat with you, I could offer my advice if you like.
Never get disappointed my friend, there is always a solution; plus, you are only 23 years old, don't forget it!
My degree is CS but offers me absolutely nothing, trust me on that!
If there is a way to chat with you, I could offer my advice if you like.
My advice? If you can, reduce the working hours.
This is will reduce the workload and it will give you more time to recover from stress. Do it for like a year. Come back next year to this post and decide for yourself how you would like to continue.
So I've been on grad admissions at a selective graduate program. A different field but some of the concerns you mention are really similar.
Your concerns are legitimate but people do get into programs and continue on. You're not the only one who was young and made mistakes. People at good programs know this. (They might argue about the significance of it but usually there's someone level-headed around to put a dose of reality in the conversation.)
Generally speaking the way I see students with regrets get in to programs later is to build up evidence of their skills and abilities, and then find someone to advocate for them. That is, they take more classes and ace them, or get good standardized test scores, volunteer on research projects for awhile, and so forth and so on, and get someone "on their side" on the admissions committee who can vouch for you. I don't mean anything nefarious, I just mean things like, if you volunteer on a research program, there are people involved in that research program who will know people or appeal to people (intellectually/academically) on the committee, or might be on the committee themselves, and they will be more receptive to you than if you were just a complete stranger with letters of recommendation from people that no one knows anything about (which is why program fit is important, among other things).
Your background in the "real world" is pretty compelling, you just need take that and other things to build up evidence to make a case. Think of it as like a legal argument and you're making one for why you should get in. Be honest about your mistakes when asked about what was going on, but don't include it in statements or anything like that. Or if you do, spin it in a positive growth-oriented way.
You might also want to be really creative with the types of graduate programs you consider and why. I don't mean that as a euphemism for "seek around for whatever program can take you through the back door", I mean think carefully about where you are in life, and where your strengths are, and what types of programs would get you the furthest along from A to B, at least as you can see B at the current time.
Your concerns are legitimate but people do get into programs and continue on. You're not the only one who was young and made mistakes. People at good programs know this. (They might argue about the significance of it but usually there's someone level-headed around to put a dose of reality in the conversation.)
Generally speaking the way I see students with regrets get in to programs later is to build up evidence of their skills and abilities, and then find someone to advocate for them. That is, they take more classes and ace them, or get good standardized test scores, volunteer on research projects for awhile, and so forth and so on, and get someone "on their side" on the admissions committee who can vouch for you. I don't mean anything nefarious, I just mean things like, if you volunteer on a research program, there are people involved in that research program who will know people or appeal to people (intellectually/academically) on the committee, or might be on the committee themselves, and they will be more receptive to you than if you were just a complete stranger with letters of recommendation from people that no one knows anything about (which is why program fit is important, among other things).
Your background in the "real world" is pretty compelling, you just need take that and other things to build up evidence to make a case. Think of it as like a legal argument and you're making one for why you should get in. Be honest about your mistakes when asked about what was going on, but don't include it in statements or anything like that. Or if you do, spin it in a positive growth-oriented way.
You might also want to be really creative with the types of graduate programs you consider and why. I don't mean that as a euphemism for "seek around for whatever program can take you through the back door", I mean think carefully about where you are in life, and where your strengths are, and what types of programs would get you the furthest along from A to B, at least as you can see B at the current time.
> But now, I really want to go back to school and learn things the traditional way because it feels too overwhelming.
It’s hard to give advice without knowing why you feel overwhelmed. Is the job crazy hours? Too much new stuff to learn? Different than you expected?
How are your colleagues - supportive, engaged, helpful? Or aloof, focused on their own work, perhaps critical at times?
What’s your feedback at work like - positive + encouraging, or negative and highlighting weak spots?
The solution could be anything from “see a therapist” to “be more proactive” to “this is just what imposter syndrome feels like.”
It’s hard to give advice without knowing why you feel overwhelmed. Is the job crazy hours? Too much new stuff to learn? Different than you expected?
How are your colleagues - supportive, engaged, helpful? Or aloof, focused on their own work, perhaps critical at times?
What’s your feedback at work like - positive + encouraging, or negative and highlighting weak spots?
The solution could be anything from “see a therapist” to “be more proactive” to “this is just what imposter syndrome feels like.”
There's no such thing as having a perfect plan executing it and success. Life is made of both success and bad luck, sometimes the universe throws you this good or bad that you could never antecipate.
My sugestion is look at where you are and the paths forward. It's about identifying the oportunities ahead not the ones in the past. Personally I also tend to focus a little bit on somewhat abstract longer term goals and focus a lot on the next steps that are now within my reach.
My sugestion is look at where you are and the paths forward. It's about identifying the oportunities ahead not the ones in the past. Personally I also tend to focus a little bit on somewhat abstract longer term goals and focus a lot on the next steps that are now within my reach.
Get your hands dirty. Learn a new practical skill that will pay your bills. Don't worry that your degree will be useless, because ALL university degrees are, without the practical application of those skills to back them up.
A philosophy degree will serve you well as a foundation for analysis and thought. It will not pay your bills on its own.
Lots of successful people run into this straight out of uni, because experience cannot be taught, and long-term success is borne by experience. Good luck!
A philosophy degree will serve you well as a foundation for analysis and thought. It will not pay your bills on its own.
Lots of successful people run into this straight out of uni, because experience cannot be taught, and long-term success is borne by experience. Good luck!
> I really don't have the patience to start a second degree at a third tier college/university because it's pointless to do so.
My BA from a third tier university has served me very well. Who the fuck says this kind of shit?
> I want to get into one of those online masters programs but let's be honest, with a pathetic 2.44 cgpa there is no way any masters program is gonna let me in.
Have you applied to any?
Listen friend, people make mistakes and start over all the time. If you want it, go for it.
My BA from a third tier university has served me very well. Who the fuck says this kind of shit?
> I want to get into one of those online masters programs but let's be honest, with a pathetic 2.44 cgpa there is no way any masters program is gonna let me in.
Have you applied to any?
Listen friend, people make mistakes and start over all the time. If you want it, go for it.
> But now, I really want to go back to school and learn things the traditional way because it feels too overwhelming.
What feels overwhelming?
What feels overwhelming?
I also don't have a CS major but work as a developer. I can attest to the OP's urge of wanting to enroll in CS in hopes that once I finish and get another job, I won't feel as overwhelmed as I did before.
While I'm sure going back to university and studying will provide me with some benefits to whatever my subsequent employment would be, there's probably drawbacks too. Namely, the sacrifice of real-world job experience for more theoretical experience.
The other thing is, companies typically try and maximize the amount of work they get out of employees. Nothing sinister about that, but it's important to recognize that's how companies function. So I think the OP should ask him/herself if their overwhelmed feeling is due to a lack of theoretical understanding, or simply due to the sheer workload
While I'm sure going back to university and studying will provide me with some benefits to whatever my subsequent employment would be, there's probably drawbacks too. Namely, the sacrifice of real-world job experience for more theoretical experience.
The other thing is, companies typically try and maximize the amount of work they get out of employees. Nothing sinister about that, but it's important to recognize that's how companies function. So I think the OP should ask him/herself if their overwhelmed feeling is due to a lack of theoretical understanding, or simply due to the sheer workload
You have the job at Shopify! Which is what majority of CS grads want (a job at a major tech company). The degree is just a means to an end.
> I really want to go back to school and learn things the traditional way because it feels too overwhelming.
You did not miss out on anything. I wouldn’t waste money on redoing an undergrad CS degree.
> I really want to go back to school and learn things the traditional way because it feels too overwhelming.
You did not miss out on anything. I wouldn’t waste money on redoing an undergrad CS degree.
I don't know if this will be helpful but I'll say this as a 22yo fresher.
You managed to land a full stack role in a company like Shopify despite everything. I commend that. Really inspirational.
I get wanting to learn things more traditionally. I hope you get the help you need from here or via therapy/counselling. All the best!
You managed to land a full stack role in a company like Shopify despite everything. I commend that. Really inspirational.
I get wanting to learn things more traditionally. I hope you get the help you need from here or via therapy/counselling. All the best!
After reading this I'm genuinely unsure what exactly you're complaining about.
You got the SE job at shopify, seems like you're off to a great start at 23!
Just make the best of it, develop your skills professionally and privately, and you'll get very far. What's precisely the issue?
Cheers.
You got the SE job at shopify, seems like you're off to a great start at 23!
Just make the best of it, develop your skills professionally and privately, and you'll get very far. What's precisely the issue?
Cheers.
[deleted]
There are multiple pieces to work through here:
1) What is your actual goal? When you envision your life in the better place that you are depressed not to be in right now, what does that life look like? What are you doing day-to-day? What do you know/have/do that you can't know/have/do right now?
You can't undo the past so you need to shake the baggage from your previous university performance and focus on determining a next step on the path you want to travel.
2) You say:
> I really want to go back to school and learn things the traditional way because it feels too overwhelming.
but then you also say:
> I really don't have the patience to start a second degree at a third tier college/university because it's pointless to do so.
What is the disconnect that makes this pointless? If the goal is to learn CS the traditional way then why is it pointless to do this at a less prestigious college/university? Is the goal to learn the concepts or to have the top degree that says "CS"?
Also, you probably can land an online masters spot with your experience and GPA. Worst case, take a couple of CS classes at a local university, get great grades, demonstrate that you are a reformed CS student and ready to succeed.
3) All of that said, you might be putting the CS degree on a pedestal because it's the thing you don't have. Is it really the lack of CS degree that is making you unhappy? Many people graduate with CS degrees and still feel lost. There is a lot of learning to do on the job after finishing school.
Quick anecdote from Julia Evans[0] on this topic:
> [...] I have 2 CS degrees but didn’t know what a system call was when I graduated. Some people think this is surprising and a failure of CS education.
> [...] But more importantly – it’s ok to not know things. I knew practically nothing about a lot of really important programming concepts when I got out of grad school. Even though I’d started learning to program 8 years before! Now I know those things! I learned them.
> [...] I have friends who are amazing programmers who sometimes feel bad because they don’t have a CS degree and sometimes don’t know algorithms/CS theory stuff that other people know. They’ve learned the things they needed to know! They are great.
[0] https://jvns.ca/blog/2016/09/12/how-i-got-a-cs-degree-withou...
1) What is your actual goal? When you envision your life in the better place that you are depressed not to be in right now, what does that life look like? What are you doing day-to-day? What do you know/have/do that you can't know/have/do right now?
You can't undo the past so you need to shake the baggage from your previous university performance and focus on determining a next step on the path you want to travel.
2) You say:
> I really want to go back to school and learn things the traditional way because it feels too overwhelming.
but then you also say:
> I really don't have the patience to start a second degree at a third tier college/university because it's pointless to do so.
What is the disconnect that makes this pointless? If the goal is to learn CS the traditional way then why is it pointless to do this at a less prestigious college/university? Is the goal to learn the concepts or to have the top degree that says "CS"?
Also, you probably can land an online masters spot with your experience and GPA. Worst case, take a couple of CS classes at a local university, get great grades, demonstrate that you are a reformed CS student and ready to succeed.
3) All of that said, you might be putting the CS degree on a pedestal because it's the thing you don't have. Is it really the lack of CS degree that is making you unhappy? Many people graduate with CS degrees and still feel lost. There is a lot of learning to do on the job after finishing school.
Quick anecdote from Julia Evans[0] on this topic:
> [...] I have 2 CS degrees but didn’t know what a system call was when I graduated. Some people think this is surprising and a failure of CS education.
> [...] But more importantly – it’s ok to not know things. I knew practically nothing about a lot of really important programming concepts when I got out of grad school. Even though I’d started learning to program 8 years before! Now I know those things! I learned them.
> [...] I have friends who are amazing programmers who sometimes feel bad because they don’t have a CS degree and sometimes don’t know algorithms/CS theory stuff that other people know. They’ve learned the things they needed to know! They are great.
[0] https://jvns.ca/blog/2016/09/12/how-i-got-a-cs-degree-withou...
I'd stay where you and see if your current employer offers any kind of continuing education opportunities. Many employers will pay part or all of additional courses you want to take as long as they are relevant to your job.
Learn as much as you can where you are now.
Learn as much as you can where you are now.
> But now, I really want to go back to school and learn things the traditional way because it feels too overwhelming.
At least where I studied, not one university course would change that. Not even DS&A.
At least where I studied, not one university course would change that. Not even DS&A.
[deleted]
> But now, I really want to go back to school and learn things the traditional way because it feels too overwhelming.
What is overwhelming?
full stack ? Not sure if going to a masters will help
What is overwhelming?
full stack ? Not sure if going to a masters will help
You're working at one of the best companies in the world and you want to go back to college? Why? You're doing great.
[deleted]
> I really want to go back to school and learn things the traditional way because it feels too overwhelming.
You want to waste more time and money on education that wont help? You have real world experience at Shopify. You're also very young and can really do anything you want.
Find someone that lives how you want to live, and talk to them and learn.
Why do you want masters? What is the point? The education system is archaic.
You want to waste more time and money on education that wont help? You have real world experience at Shopify. You're also very young and can really do anything you want.
Find someone that lives how you want to live, and talk to them and learn.
Why do you want masters? What is the point? The education system is archaic.
I'd say...
Keep taking adequate levels of care of your health and financial situation.
Maintain activity outside of work. Preferably something engaging enough that you're not inclined to ruminate much while you're in the activity.
Do you have at least some friend or similar who gets your problem rather than just brush it off? If so, maybe try talking more with them.
Be skeptical of getting diagnosed with clinical depression as long as there are situational factors which motivate feeling depressed in the colloquial sense. In particular, be very skeptical of pharmacological treatment against clinical depression unless and until a strong case has been made that you actually have the disorder, and in a form for which the meds are likely to be of help. (Note said situational factors and get started on fixing a judicious small selection of them.)
Test the assumption about admission to the masters programs you want. There are often other ways to enter than high grades, particularly if you can demonstrate aptitude or strong interest in practice, which does seem to be the case for you. Communicate with people taking those programs and people teaching in them, if possible. Try to get a good idea about whether the reality of that life is indeed what you picture it to be, and ask for advice about alternative possibilities to get there.
A point which maybe needs to be addressed, for your own sake for the future, is why is there such a disconnect between your interest/motivation and your grades? It could well be that there's something flawed in the way this is being taught or scored locally, but it's still at least partially on you that you didn't make a strong play in whatever game they have set up, despite having entered participation of your own accord. Alternatively there could for instance have been other motivations or needs which claimed enough of your time, attention, etc that you didn't prioritize enough to success in the courses. Examining your values shouldn't really be handed over to anyone else, though doing it together with the right people could help clarity of vision a great deal.
While it's probably hard to really believe the advice without digesting experiences of a couple of substantial failures of one's own first, I think mattficke here ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34665667 ) has excellent points about the leeway for not getting everything right the first time (and then some).
Good on you for the recovery so far, and I wish you better success and satisfaction by the end of the next round.
Keep taking adequate levels of care of your health and financial situation.
Maintain activity outside of work. Preferably something engaging enough that you're not inclined to ruminate much while you're in the activity.
Do you have at least some friend or similar who gets your problem rather than just brush it off? If so, maybe try talking more with them.
Be skeptical of getting diagnosed with clinical depression as long as there are situational factors which motivate feeling depressed in the colloquial sense. In particular, be very skeptical of pharmacological treatment against clinical depression unless and until a strong case has been made that you actually have the disorder, and in a form for which the meds are likely to be of help. (Note said situational factors and get started on fixing a judicious small selection of them.)
Test the assumption about admission to the masters programs you want. There are often other ways to enter than high grades, particularly if you can demonstrate aptitude or strong interest in practice, which does seem to be the case for you. Communicate with people taking those programs and people teaching in them, if possible. Try to get a good idea about whether the reality of that life is indeed what you picture it to be, and ask for advice about alternative possibilities to get there.
A point which maybe needs to be addressed, for your own sake for the future, is why is there such a disconnect between your interest/motivation and your grades? It could well be that there's something flawed in the way this is being taught or scored locally, but it's still at least partially on you that you didn't make a strong play in whatever game they have set up, despite having entered participation of your own accord. Alternatively there could for instance have been other motivations or needs which claimed enough of your time, attention, etc that you didn't prioritize enough to success in the courses. Examining your values shouldn't really be handed over to anyone else, though doing it together with the right people could help clarity of vision a great deal.
While it's probably hard to really believe the advice without digesting experiences of a couple of substantial failures of one's own first, I think mattficke here ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34665667 ) has excellent points about the leeway for not getting everything right the first time (and then some).
Good on you for the recovery so far, and I wish you better success and satisfaction by the end of the next round.
Stop typing and get the fuck out of the house!
Seriously! Step away from the computer!!!
Seriously! Step away from the computer!!!
Honestly, consider yourself super lucky.
Your young age is your biggest hope
So I used to be in a very similar boat as you: I was depressed while working towards a STEM degree in college and ended up almost failing out with a 2.X GPA. I didn't see a path forward, and there was only one entity that was willing to hire me to do "real" work (for basically minimum wage). Like you, I thought I was totally fucked. Turns out, I wasn't. I spent the next 7 years working incredibly hard at that job. I taught myself software development skills in a similar manner as you out of personal interest. Eventually I was skilled enough to make major contributions at work and transitioned into a developer role. I continued studying and also took some remedial courses at a local university to prove that I could get A's if I tried. I then applied to a Master's program with glowing recommendations from my employer, a proven professional track record of success, and the transcripts from the local university. I was sure the admissions people would laugh and toss my application right into the trash. Guess what? I got into a great program! I'm now working in my dream role at a tech company, I got the opportunity to go back and prove to myself that I could succeed academically, and I learned a lot while in the program. You are already at a prestigious company as a full stack dev, so your road could be A LOT shorter than mine. I will give you the following advice based on my experience:
1. Realistically you are doing well. You are already in a great role; it sounds like you may just be struggling a bit. You mentioned feeling overwhelmed: have you reached out to your manager or a more senior engineer on your team for help? I bet they would be able to identify any weak points that you have which you could fix with self-directed learning (which it sounds like you are experienced at). Has anyone made a comment on your performance? If not, is it possible that some of your feelings are driven by imposter syndrome? The fact that you were hired despite your academic record suggests that you are certainly a competent dev.
2. No one likes hearing this, but you need to be patient. You only recently began your professional career (whereas I am in my mid 30s), and it will take time to build up the reputation and the track record to offset your past. By "time" I mean probably a few years minimum. Don't be deterred by this though, as these few years will be periods of heavy growth. I should also note that when I say it will take time to offset past performance, I am speaking purely from an academic perspective. From a professional perspective, you left your academic record behind when you got your first job, so I wouldn't spend time dwelling on it.
3. I agree that getting a Master's degree may be helpful, if for no other reason than it sounds like you may have a chip on your shoulder about your academic record. If you are serious about going back to school, take the following actions:
* Work. Fucking. Hard. Build a track record of success in your role.
* Get a portfolio of projects together that you can show off.
* Continue your self-directed learning and fill in gaps in understanding yourself. Work with your manager / seniors to identify these.
* Succeed in some sort of graded endeavor that you can use to display that you are serious and diligent: take courses somewhere and get A's; take coursework on Coursera or something else and get a certificate; get an industry certification or two; do research and put out a paper; etc. Basically you want to show the program that you can succeed academically and that you won't flake out if they admit you.
If you want to chat about your situation further, I'm happy to do so out of band.
1. Realistically you are doing well. You are already in a great role; it sounds like you may just be struggling a bit. You mentioned feeling overwhelmed: have you reached out to your manager or a more senior engineer on your team for help? I bet they would be able to identify any weak points that you have which you could fix with self-directed learning (which it sounds like you are experienced at). Has anyone made a comment on your performance? If not, is it possible that some of your feelings are driven by imposter syndrome? The fact that you were hired despite your academic record suggests that you are certainly a competent dev.
2. No one likes hearing this, but you need to be patient. You only recently began your professional career (whereas I am in my mid 30s), and it will take time to build up the reputation and the track record to offset your past. By "time" I mean probably a few years minimum. Don't be deterred by this though, as these few years will be periods of heavy growth. I should also note that when I say it will take time to offset past performance, I am speaking purely from an academic perspective. From a professional perspective, you left your academic record behind when you got your first job, so I wouldn't spend time dwelling on it.
3. I agree that getting a Master's degree may be helpful, if for no other reason than it sounds like you may have a chip on your shoulder about your academic record. If you are serious about going back to school, take the following actions:
* Work. Fucking. Hard. Build a track record of success in your role.
* Get a portfolio of projects together that you can show off.
* Continue your self-directed learning and fill in gaps in understanding yourself. Work with your manager / seniors to identify these.
* Succeed in some sort of graded endeavor that you can use to display that you are serious and diligent: take courses somewhere and get A's; take coursework on Coursera or something else and get a certificate; get an industry certification or two; do research and put out a paper; etc. Basically you want to show the program that you can succeed academically and that you won't flake out if they admit you.
If you want to chat about your situation further, I'm happy to do so out of band.
Instead of strategy in the real world which is what most people here will give you, I’ll give strategy for managing your mind. It comes from two decades of hard won lessons through my own stugglr and hustling.
You said yourself - you got cocky. You shot too high, and you failed. It is natural to feel hopeless and lost after that, if you don’t have the skills to mentally manage it and refocus. So there is nothing wrong with you. Only your strategies. You’re young.
First of all, to be happy, look down - not up. See how many people throughout history and in other countries had a lot less than you and a lot worse conditions, and they could still be happy. Can you feel have that you have more than they ever did? Air conditioning, transportstion, healthcare, electricity. You can do a lot more than most humans throughout history could.
Most of all, find the anxiety and fear that is behind your feelings. Write down what you are most afraid of. And then write down all the things that need to happen in order for that to come about. Then for each of those things, write the multiple mechanisms that are in place to prevent that for the average person — you may want other people’s help w this step (insurance, support groups, family, limited liability and bankruptcy protection). After you have thought through and worked to produce this list, then you will start to feel you have a handle on your life! You’ll be able to take risks knowing that YOU ARE SAFE!
Allow yourself to be ok with failing in small ways. The first step to success is noticing when it’s safe to fail. This is a repeatable skill most people don’t focus on honing. Michael Jordan said “I fail over and over snd that is precisely why I succeed”.
Learn to spot when you can take risks and practice. Ask yourself “what is the worst case scenario?” If it is not bad at all, go for it nearly every time! You’ll encounter the average scenario which is even better and often positive!
It is how I made connections with a lot of famous people who opened doors for me later. Most people wouldn’t try. For example: https://youtu.be/cX7K6bhjefU
It is also why most people don’t learn a lot of skills where they havd very low competence in the first place. They’re afraid to wade into a cold pool a bit. You can particularly see the older generation lacking the skills to use software effectively (subconsciously afraid to try the buttons) or non-STEM people lacking analytical and math skills (subconsciously afraid due to their education). Conquer this fear by breaking things into small experiments that are safe to fail.
Hey, if you’re bold and entrepreneurial, you can even do things like this (I had zero experience when I attempted this, yet I had so much fun with friends and it reached hundreds of thousands of people): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVypyAfcmA0
Learn how systems work (postgrad, VC funding, whatever) and what the incentives of each individual role are. Don’t try to fight the system. Instead learn to repeatably give each decision maker you need to what they want as part of their role. If you can give them FAR MORE than the average person, they’ll value and appreciate you and you can use that to open doors.
Learn to break down big steps into smaller ones. And learn how to grow a brand where you organize things and get people to come into your world. This creates scarcity. To get a customer, have them come on your show and talk about their own community. Have them put up a deposit or pay for calendly slots to be prioritized for your scarce time. And so on. To get an investor for $10,000, have them invest $100 first, when you don’t need it, and show results.
Also realize that most big failures recede with time. Learn that no huge success can come overnight, unless you get super lucky. Accept the loss and move on. Make a long term plan. Then triple all your deadlines. Make time for your personal life. At your age you’ll think that career is the most important, but you’ll have decades to continue growing it when you uave a family. Focus on personal goals before career goals. This goes for women as well as men!
You said yourself - you got cocky. You shot too high, and you failed. It is natural to feel hopeless and lost after that, if you don’t have the skills to mentally manage it and refocus. So there is nothing wrong with you. Only your strategies. You’re young.
First of all, to be happy, look down - not up. See how many people throughout history and in other countries had a lot less than you and a lot worse conditions, and they could still be happy. Can you feel have that you have more than they ever did? Air conditioning, transportstion, healthcare, electricity. You can do a lot more than most humans throughout history could.
Most of all, find the anxiety and fear that is behind your feelings. Write down what you are most afraid of. And then write down all the things that need to happen in order for that to come about. Then for each of those things, write the multiple mechanisms that are in place to prevent that for the average person — you may want other people’s help w this step (insurance, support groups, family, limited liability and bankruptcy protection). After you have thought through and worked to produce this list, then you will start to feel you have a handle on your life! You’ll be able to take risks knowing that YOU ARE SAFE!
Allow yourself to be ok with failing in small ways. The first step to success is noticing when it’s safe to fail. This is a repeatable skill most people don’t focus on honing. Michael Jordan said “I fail over and over snd that is precisely why I succeed”.
Learn to spot when you can take risks and practice. Ask yourself “what is the worst case scenario?” If it is not bad at all, go for it nearly every time! You’ll encounter the average scenario which is even better and often positive!
It is how I made connections with a lot of famous people who opened doors for me later. Most people wouldn’t try. For example: https://youtu.be/cX7K6bhjefU
It is also why most people don’t learn a lot of skills where they havd very low competence in the first place. They’re afraid to wade into a cold pool a bit. You can particularly see the older generation lacking the skills to use software effectively (subconsciously afraid to try the buttons) or non-STEM people lacking analytical and math skills (subconsciously afraid due to their education). Conquer this fear by breaking things into small experiments that are safe to fail.
Hey, if you’re bold and entrepreneurial, you can even do things like this (I had zero experience when I attempted this, yet I had so much fun with friends and it reached hundreds of thousands of people): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVypyAfcmA0
Learn how systems work (postgrad, VC funding, whatever) and what the incentives of each individual role are. Don’t try to fight the system. Instead learn to repeatably give each decision maker you need to what they want as part of their role. If you can give them FAR MORE than the average person, they’ll value and appreciate you and you can use that to open doors.
Learn to break down big steps into smaller ones. And learn how to grow a brand where you organize things and get people to come into your world. This creates scarcity. To get a customer, have them come on your show and talk about their own community. Have them put up a deposit or pay for calendly slots to be prioritized for your scarce time. And so on. To get an investor for $10,000, have them invest $100 first, when you don’t need it, and show results.
Also realize that most big failures recede with time. Learn that no huge success can come overnight, unless you get super lucky. Accept the loss and move on. Make a long term plan. Then triple all your deadlines. Make time for your personal life. At your age you’ll think that career is the most important, but you’ll have decades to continue growing it when you uave a family. Focus on personal goals before career goals. This goes for women as well as men!
I think you may be wrong that the CS degree would have prepared you in such a way that the job would seem less hard. CS degrees are not exactly structured for job preparation. ("software engineering" degrees may be). You possibly got as much practice/experience programming from the internships and hackathons as you would have either way.
But, and this may not be true I don't know you, I'm just suggesting maybe...
It may be that programming does not come as easily to you as it does to some people. You may not be as "naturally talented".
This may be why you found the CS degree hard too (while it doesn't prepare you for a job programming exactly, it does involve programming and being naturally talented at programming makes it easier; and the other things it involves, being naturally talented at them may be correlated with being naturally talented at programming).
This doesn't mean you can't do it, and can't learn to do it. You, after all, have succesfully gotten a job! And you've succesfully gotten actually a really well-paying job (right?). That is great. You actually kind of made it! You should legit be proud of yourself! It's just ended up... still harder than you wanted it to be.
But also, I think any new job, especially your first job in a new field, has a period of feeling overwhelmed. It still happens to me in new jobs working on brand new codebases/platforms/languages even after many years in this career -- and is part of why I'm reluctant to switch jobs, which is not great for my career! People who succeed will get get over that at a new job, but lots of people who succeed start there, that's what new jobs can be like. So it also may be that you are just totally typical and as good at programming as anyone, just starting a new job is hard!
Going back to school is still going to be hard, like it was last time -- maybe even overwhelming. It's not a way of getting out of overwhelming or hard things, you found that out last time!
So one question is: Do you actually like programming? Do you love it? In all that school, internships, hackathons, anything else, did you have any experiences where you really enjoyed and loved writing code?
If so... then probably stick with it, and see if you can get over the hump? See if you can learn to get better at -- learn to accept or even enjoy -- doing hard things? Doing hard things is hard! For everyone. (I hate it! I wish I hated it less!) It's also an important life skill. And something you can get better at. With practice, with the help of a therapist or life coach, a bunch of other ways.
If you don't and have never actually enjoyed programming, you were just trying to get into a good field... and are now finding that the job doing it is making you miserable... you may want to start considering other careers, even knowing they may be less money. There's no hurry, you can still wait it out at your job and see if it gets better if you can get over the hump. But if school was miserable, you even didn't find much joy in those hackathons or internships, and the job is also miserable... what about this career (other than the money) attracts you? If only the money... either it's tolerable enough for the money, or it isn't.
Also, you say you are genuinely depressed. Are you seeing a therapist? Please try it out! It's possible you are depressed and would be regardless of your job (there are a lot of depressed people and a lot to be depressed about right now) and it's not really about your job at all. It's also possible it is about your job, in small or large part. Either way, for any of this, please consider seeing a therapist!
But, and this may not be true I don't know you, I'm just suggesting maybe...
It may be that programming does not come as easily to you as it does to some people. You may not be as "naturally talented".
This may be why you found the CS degree hard too (while it doesn't prepare you for a job programming exactly, it does involve programming and being naturally talented at programming makes it easier; and the other things it involves, being naturally talented at them may be correlated with being naturally talented at programming).
This doesn't mean you can't do it, and can't learn to do it. You, after all, have succesfully gotten a job! And you've succesfully gotten actually a really well-paying job (right?). That is great. You actually kind of made it! You should legit be proud of yourself! It's just ended up... still harder than you wanted it to be.
But also, I think any new job, especially your first job in a new field, has a period of feeling overwhelmed. It still happens to me in new jobs working on brand new codebases/platforms/languages even after many years in this career -- and is part of why I'm reluctant to switch jobs, which is not great for my career! People who succeed will get get over that at a new job, but lots of people who succeed start there, that's what new jobs can be like. So it also may be that you are just totally typical and as good at programming as anyone, just starting a new job is hard!
Going back to school is still going to be hard, like it was last time -- maybe even overwhelming. It's not a way of getting out of overwhelming or hard things, you found that out last time!
So one question is: Do you actually like programming? Do you love it? In all that school, internships, hackathons, anything else, did you have any experiences where you really enjoyed and loved writing code?
If so... then probably stick with it, and see if you can get over the hump? See if you can learn to get better at -- learn to accept or even enjoy -- doing hard things? Doing hard things is hard! For everyone. (I hate it! I wish I hated it less!) It's also an important life skill. And something you can get better at. With practice, with the help of a therapist or life coach, a bunch of other ways.
If you don't and have never actually enjoyed programming, you were just trying to get into a good field... and are now finding that the job doing it is making you miserable... you may want to start considering other careers, even knowing they may be less money. There's no hurry, you can still wait it out at your job and see if it gets better if you can get over the hump. But if school was miserable, you even didn't find much joy in those hackathons or internships, and the job is also miserable... what about this career (other than the money) attracts you? If only the money... either it's tolerable enough for the money, or it isn't.
Also, you say you are genuinely depressed. Are you seeing a therapist? Please try it out! It's possible you are depressed and would be regardless of your job (there are a lot of depressed people and a lot to be depressed about right now) and it's not really about your job at all. It's also possible it is about your job, in small or large part. Either way, for any of this, please consider seeing a therapist!
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