Ask HN: How to Exit FAANG?
96 comments
The thing you want, low stakes low effort programming, doesn’t really exist. The reason Google can survive building everything themselves — and thus giving you and many others endless code to write — is because they have exceptionally deep pockets and army’s of people.
Outside of Google-type companies, people write code to serve a direct business need which means the impressive software engineers are not the people who write good code but rather the software engineers who can use technology to benefit the business — which sometimes means writing code, but often does not.
If you go to a smaller company, even in a software engineering role, even as an individual contributor, expect to spend a lot less time having fun programming and a lot more time solving business problems.
You can absolutely coast in a low stakes environment at a smaller company, but don’t expect that being able to write Google-quality code will impress anyone. At a pragmatic company, people are more impressed by whatever benefits the bottom line. If you’re not a natural at the business side of things, it’ll be much more challenging to impress at a small company than it would be to impress at Google.
Outside of Google-type companies, people write code to serve a direct business need which means the impressive software engineers are not the people who write good code but rather the software engineers who can use technology to benefit the business — which sometimes means writing code, but often does not.
If you go to a smaller company, even in a software engineering role, even as an individual contributor, expect to spend a lot less time having fun programming and a lot more time solving business problems.
You can absolutely coast in a low stakes environment at a smaller company, but don’t expect that being able to write Google-quality code will impress anyone. At a pragmatic company, people are more impressed by whatever benefits the bottom line. If you’re not a natural at the business side of things, it’ll be much more challenging to impress at a small company than it would be to impress at Google.
Having left a company that also rhymed with Frugal - this somewhat checks out. I do think smaller companies have more options for people to remain ICs somewhat longer. The catch is that ICs do somewhat more than write code.
A few months ago I was the engineer supporting a new ask from marketing, after listening to their requests and evaluating what tools we had I wrote exactly 0 lines of code and we launched on time and without issues in part because I figured out how to use the levers we'd build into existing systems to do what they needed. It's engineering work but not development work.
Outside FAANGs there's more focus on contributing to success than simply contributing LOC. (I left where I was in part because I felt I was penalized for finding efficient ways to do things rather than churning out LoC)
A few months ago I was the engineer supporting a new ask from marketing, after listening to their requests and evaluating what tools we had I wrote exactly 0 lines of code and we launched on time and without issues in part because I figured out how to use the levers we'd build into existing systems to do what they needed. It's engineering work but not development work.
Outside FAANGs there's more focus on contributing to success than simply contributing LOC. (I left where I was in part because I felt I was penalized for finding efficient ways to do things rather than churning out LoC)
Agreed with all this. The absolute best thing you can do as an engineer at a smaller company is not write code at all. Figure out how to solve problems using existing tools and processes. If you do have to write code, write the absolute simplest thing possible that solves the problem. That doesn't mean "low quality," because things like testing/CI/monitoring are still important. It just means you aren't building a system that needs to scale to 100 million concurrent users.
Problem is you were hired to code, they will review your performance a large part on code, and if you want another engineering job they will want examples of when you coded X and test you on concepts in latest frameworks.
The role you are describing might be different to an engineer.
Sure a good engineer avoids unnecessary coding but having done that they have to be seen to do some necessary coding (or necessary work like architecture, security, devops etc.)
Most small companies think in job titles and roles as an anchor but you may wear other hats sure.
The role you are describing might be different to an engineer.
Sure a good engineer avoids unnecessary coding but having done that they have to be seen to do some necessary coding (or necessary work like architecture, security, devops etc.)
Most small companies think in job titles and roles as an anchor but you may wear other hats sure.
I have been a team lead, manager, Director of Engineering, VP of Engineering, and CTO at many small IT shops. Not once did I or my leadership care about lines of code. We cared about delivering features and solutions that drove revenue, in fact the few lines of code you could do it in the better!
I feel like I have a lot of fun programming to solve business problems.
The OP should not underestimate the value of having a voice in the room when business decisions are made. A lot of programmers have to implement systems specified by MBAs they never meet.
I hate meetings and prefer to spend all my time coding, but having a great working relationship with management allows me to steer my projects in a direction where I will enjoy building them.
You are dead right about code quality, nobody in the business world cares.
The OP should not underestimate the value of having a voice in the room when business decisions are made. A lot of programmers have to implement systems specified by MBAs they never meet.
I hate meetings and prefer to spend all my time coding, but having a great working relationship with management allows me to steer my projects in a direction where I will enjoy building them.
You are dead right about code quality, nobody in the business world cares.
First post on HN after probably 10+ years of lurking. I'm not in the software space (corporate lawyer of 20+ years).
This post by phphphphp nails it so much in every area I've been exposed to, which is most areas of every company I've worked with (mostly as in-house counsel for 14 years), that I just had to chime in with support for the message.
Solving problems is the most valuable skill you can contribute. If you use it, you will be valued.
This post by phphphphp nails it so much in every area I've been exposed to, which is most areas of every company I've worked with (mostly as in-house counsel for 14 years), that I just had to chime in with support for the message.
Solving problems is the most valuable skill you can contribute. If you use it, you will be valued.
Where do you live now? If I had to do this I'd do the following:
- Move to 2nd tier, lower cost of living city. My hidden gem: Chicago. Public transit, plenty of housing, culture, arts, #1 food city in the US, international airport with flights everywhere, half the housing cost and 3/4th other expenses as NYC and SF. 2nd option is Philadelphia for the same reasons and proximity to NYC for the weekend trips or to go into the office.
- Take a pay cut working at a financial, industrial, retail company as a cog while enjoying a stable 9-5. Lots of options remote and local with the resume you have.
- Work on side projects, hobbies. Decompress.
I wouldn't worry about your skills with "real world" tech stacks. It's straight forward to pick up.
Edit: I know calling one of the largest cities in the US a hidden gem is odd, but tech and Chicago / Philly? Not often considered.
- Move to 2nd tier, lower cost of living city. My hidden gem: Chicago. Public transit, plenty of housing, culture, arts, #1 food city in the US, international airport with flights everywhere, half the housing cost and 3/4th other expenses as NYC and SF. 2nd option is Philadelphia for the same reasons and proximity to NYC for the weekend trips or to go into the office.
- Take a pay cut working at a financial, industrial, retail company as a cog while enjoying a stable 9-5. Lots of options remote and local with the resume you have.
- Work on side projects, hobbies. Decompress.
I wouldn't worry about your skills with "real world" tech stacks. It's straight forward to pick up.
Edit: I know calling one of the largest cities in the US a hidden gem is odd, but tech and Chicago / Philly? Not often considered.
Weather and Crime are the biggest cons. That being said the city and transportation is really well planned compared to other major US cities. I don't think this solves OPs issues. OP wants to remain at an L4/L5 position and not do the TeamLead responsibilities but make similar pay. I think this is still possible in few niches of companies which grow slowly or research divisions. Bloomberg, Salesforce (pre 2023, its completely Uturned now) come to mind.
I had a look at some properties in Chicago. Obviously no idea how good or bad the areas are,but the housing prices made me jealous when I compared to what we could buy for the same money in Lithuania.
meaning lithuania is more expensive than Chicago?
A lot of places in central/eastern Europe are more expensive than a city like Chicago. The example from Zillow in the sibling thread would be about 3x as expensive in Prague, CZ which has lower salaries in general.
That sounds appealing... apart from the weather in those cities. Would anyone care to recommend similar but warmer?
Miami or Atlanta also have some software industry
Nashville, Austin Tx, Raleigh NC... Search for smaller companies in college towns..
chicago #1 food city, come on lol
I live in NYC. Chicago is the #1 food city in America in my opinion:
- availability
- quality
- diversity
Others agree:
https://www.bonappetit.com/story/chicago-restaurant-city-of-... (a little bias here’s another one: https://travel.usnews.com/rankings/best-foodie-destinations-...)
You can do a quick search for more recent opinions.
NYC has more top end, famous restaurants. Chicago has more close to top end restaurants that you can easily get a reservation for. Measured by dimensions like # of Michelin stars, Chicago is only behind NYC and SF. It’s ahead LA for example.
- availability
- quality
- diversity
Others agree:
https://www.bonappetit.com/story/chicago-restaurant-city-of-... (a little bias here’s another one: https://travel.usnews.com/rankings/best-foodie-destinations-...)
You can do a quick search for more recent opinions.
NYC has more top end, famous restaurants. Chicago has more close to top end restaurants that you can easily get a reservation for. Measured by dimensions like # of Michelin stars, Chicago is only behind NYC and SF. It’s ahead LA for example.
"close to top end restaurant" is purely subjective, and meaningless. Sorry, but Chicago doesn't have the diversity, quality or quantity of restuarants that NYC has. Not even remotely close. Chicago has certainly come a long way from the days of meat & potatoes, but its no where in the same league as NYC. And the fact that its easy to get reservations only further underscores how non-competitive Chicago is in that regard.
NYC's food scene is great, but when I lived there (circa 2015) the only Mexican food available was confined to a few blocks of 116th ST in East Harlem, whereas Chicago had Rick Bayless.
It’s not just staples like Mexican food: there isn’t great Vietnamese, Thai, and options for other cultures too. There’s barely passable Korean food in Korea town. It’s commercialized tourist goop. I’m talking Manhattan, gentrified Brooklyn, and LIC here.
Having Japanese and a handful of decent Chinese places != diverse.
I’ve lived in NYC for 10 years. I’ve looked.
Here’s the breakdown of where to go to get authentic, good non-tourist food:
An hour+ to get to different parts of Queens for decent Korean, Chinese, Mexican options.
Three hours to get to Northern VA for Vietnamese food (or 2 for Philly).
1-2 hours to get to New Jersey to get decent Indian food.
Yes, NYC has great sushi that costs 500 per person. Again, that doesn’t make it the #1 food city in America.
Having Japanese and a handful of decent Chinese places != diverse.
I’ve lived in NYC for 10 years. I’ve looked.
Here’s the breakdown of where to go to get authentic, good non-tourist food:
An hour+ to get to different parts of Queens for decent Korean, Chinese, Mexican options.
Three hours to get to Northern VA for Vietnamese food (or 2 for Philly).
1-2 hours to get to New Jersey to get decent Indian food.
Yes, NYC has great sushi that costs 500 per person. Again, that doesn’t make it the #1 food city in America.
> Three hours to get to Northern VA for Vietnamese food (or 2 for Philly).
That's where I live now, and while I love the ready access to great banh mi, I do have to go to NYC to get a good babka. No place is perfect, I guess
That's where I live now, and while I love the ready access to great banh mi, I do have to go to NYC to get a good babka. No place is perfect, I guess
Nailed it.
Whenever someone goes on about Manhattan food that isn’t a food truck, i eye-roll. The good stuff is indeed in Queens or even Jersey.
Whenever someone goes on about Manhattan food that isn’t a food truck, i eye-roll. The good stuff is indeed in Queens or even Jersey.
Oh Chicago! They love white folk in Chicago :D
"Somewhere where I can put the minimum effort and still impress"
Get a Corporate job in a big old school industry/traditional company (e.g manufacturing) where you are just a number. Trick is to find a team where work is minimal. FAANG and startups are out
2nd best bet is to find a Mid sized small business where they don't have much IT but just about enough where you could become a key IC doing 9-5 with minimal pressure. Tech is not their main business.
Get a Corporate job in a big old school industry/traditional company (e.g manufacturing) where you are just a number. Trick is to find a team where work is minimal. FAANG and startups are out
2nd best bet is to find a Mid sized small business where they don't have much IT but just about enough where you could become a key IC doing 9-5 with minimal pressure. Tech is not their main business.
This is great advice. Check out the insurance industry.
- Notorious for it's slow-moving timelines and bog-standard technology needs. Tech is usually "behind the curve", but that's okay! You don't need to be an expert in the latest frameworks here.
- Usually the tech is built around a few core business apps, knowing the gotchas and quirks of these is half the job.
- WLB is great, the industry is full of professionals who "just want to get the job done".
- Great job security. Many types of insurance products are legally required by the government and the industry is fairly recession resilient. Mass layoffs are pretty rare.
- You won't get FAANG level comp, but the major carriers can have competitive pay at upper levels.
- The industry is close knit and domain knowledge is easily transferable. You can find a new job pretty quickly in my experience, often by leveraging your network rather than cold-applyling.
People say it's boring, but I actually find the industry quite dynamic and fun. There are so many types of insurance, it's such an essential and pro-social financial product (risk hedging feels a lot more ethical than lending imo).
- Notorious for it's slow-moving timelines and bog-standard technology needs. Tech is usually "behind the curve", but that's okay! You don't need to be an expert in the latest frameworks here.
- Usually the tech is built around a few core business apps, knowing the gotchas and quirks of these is half the job.
- WLB is great, the industry is full of professionals who "just want to get the job done".
- Great job security. Many types of insurance products are legally required by the government and the industry is fairly recession resilient. Mass layoffs are pretty rare.
- You won't get FAANG level comp, but the major carriers can have competitive pay at upper levels.
- The industry is close knit and domain knowledge is easily transferable. You can find a new job pretty quickly in my experience, often by leveraging your network rather than cold-applyling.
People say it's boring, but I actually find the industry quite dynamic and fun. There are so many types of insurance, it's such an essential and pro-social financial product (risk hedging feels a lot more ethical than lending imo).
This. I remember being part of an SAP acquisition where they regaled us with tales of decades long tenure, during the pre onboarding meetings. When we finally got our usernames, they were a couple letters and some numbers. We were no longer people. We were numbers in a sea of over a hundred thousand other numbers. The address book felt infinite. Getting changes through took weeks. You could die there without almost anyone noticing because you only needed to put in the most minimal amount of effort. It was truly amazing to see how much of a slow moving human assembly line the place was.
This is your target, if you want to do the minimum and wow people but the "wow" is equally lackluster.
This is your target, if you want to do the minimum and wow people but the "wow" is equally lackluster.
Yep, work for a telco. It can be soul-crushing, but you'll easily fall through the cracks for months at a time.
Even at a non-FAANG (or even a non-software-focused company for that matter), I've found it very difficult to entertain external options. The security of multiple years in one place is very hard to give away, especially when your team and managers are willing to work with you on things a new place will quickly frown upon.
If one thing was going to get me (and possibly you) to leave, it would be a company of similar standing (how users interact with the product, amount of public users or private clients, type of product) offering the ideal tech stack for me (you).
Good luck though. Very interested in how you proceed if you decide to make a change
PS - sorry not so much advice as a generic "same here"
If one thing was going to get me (and possibly you) to leave, it would be a company of similar standing (how users interact with the product, amount of public users or private clients, type of product) offering the ideal tech stack for me (you).
Good luck though. Very interested in how you proceed if you decide to make a change
PS - sorry not so much advice as a generic "same here"
I left Google in 2018. I was working in Zurich and moved back to Romania. My compensation dropped by ~60%. I don't regret the move at all. There's a lot of cool stuff outside of FAANG and there's lots of cool stuff outside of work.
What is it — specifically - you like about the high comp? Is it a sense of feeling personal security, proof of being valued, the desire to be able to buy expensive things on a whim? It may be easier to give up the money if you really identify what it is doing for you and ask yourself if a) you still need it and if so b) if there is a different way you can meet that need.
Not OP but have had some analogous thoughts. Compared to the state institutions and startups I worked at before, FAANG-scale comp and perks literally changed my life, having grown up rather poor. I can afford to save for retirement while also attending to my health, I can afford a personal trainer to help me stay on track in my goals, I can afford a cleaner to keep my personal space tidy when I struggled for years to do so on my own, I have multiple food options every day which are healthy and “free”, I can afford bodywork when joint pain gets too much, I can attend arts and music events without considering the cost, and I can send money to family and friends when they’re struggling (among many other benefits!). I also splurge on a lot of dumb stuff but even reducing that spending I’d struggle to maintain the “important” parts of my current standard of living at a non-megacorp.
That said, I view money now as a way to buy my own disability accommodations. Not everyone has that need.
That said, I view money now as a way to buy my own disability accommodations. Not everyone has that need.
I had the same exact experience. The money really does make life easier. I am healthier for it.
I agree 100%. Now, let’s say you’re in the OP’s position and don’t want to work for FAANG-style companies forever. In order to escape and not lose the true benefit you’re getting from the money, you need to answer a few questions and make a few decisions:
1) How much money do you need, on an on-going basis, to maintain your level of comfort/improved health/whatever you’ve been spending the money on? Think of this in terms of annual expenditure. Include all of your livings expenses in this.
1a) What can you do to decrease your annual income needs? This might be something big like relocating away from an HCOL area, removing superfluous spending (i.e., things that aren’t making you happy/healthier/etc.,) or optimizing current spending (do you have a big cable package that you don’t use, do you need a new smartphone every year or could you upgrade every 2 - 3 years, etc.) Take this away from the number is step 1) and you get variable A. Example: 150,000/yr.
2) What do you want to do post-FAANG, if anything, and how much will it pay? This number is B. Example: $75,000/year.
3) What are you current investment assets? This number is C. Example: $1,000,000.
4) How much investment income could they produce? For round number purposes, in the current investment environment, maybe start with a 3% withdrawal rate. This number is D. Example: 3%
In this example, you need to save/invest an additional $1.5M for your plan to be realistic, or change your expenses or post-FAANG income to alter the timeline. However long it will take to grow your assets by $1.5M — through additional savings from your FAANG income and returns on existing investments — is how long you need to stick it out at your FAANG job, or an equivalent high-stress/high-pay job — before jumping ship without suffering any loss from the benefit the high income provides.
1) How much money do you need, on an on-going basis, to maintain your level of comfort/improved health/whatever you’ve been spending the money on? Think of this in terms of annual expenditure. Include all of your livings expenses in this.
1a) What can you do to decrease your annual income needs? This might be something big like relocating away from an HCOL area, removing superfluous spending (i.e., things that aren’t making you happy/healthier/etc.,) or optimizing current spending (do you have a big cable package that you don’t use, do you need a new smartphone every year or could you upgrade every 2 - 3 years, etc.) Take this away from the number is step 1) and you get variable A. Example: 150,000/yr.
2) What do you want to do post-FAANG, if anything, and how much will it pay? This number is B. Example: $75,000/year.
3) What are you current investment assets? This number is C. Example: $1,000,000.
4) How much investment income could they produce? For round number purposes, in the current investment environment, maybe start with a 3% withdrawal rate. This number is D. Example: 3%
A. B. C. D. DIn this example, you need to save/invest an additional $1.5M for your plan to be realistic, or change your expenses or post-FAANG income to alter the timeline. However long it will take to grow your assets by $1.5M — through additional savings from your FAANG income and returns on existing investments — is how long you need to stick it out at your FAANG job, or an equivalent high-stress/high-pay job — before jumping ship without suffering any loss from the benefit the high income provides.
I would recommend you consider a government job, in the public service somewhere.
There you will find many people seriously impressed with what your low-effort output can produce -- and the best part is that if you choose the related field carefully, you might be substantially helping the lives of people in your country or local area.
Be it health, agriculture, utilities, or some other field, there's likely to be heaps of problems that technology and modern computing are yet to touch. However, the caveat is that often these organisations and their systems are resilient to change -- that's my friendly way of saying they won't want to buy you a computer that can run python, and if you produce code they might be a bit scared to put it in 'production' somewhere.
But if you're brave and a little persistent, your changes can have a real positive impact, and you'll not be working anywhere near as hard/stressfully as an area that understands technology.
Generally speaking, there is room for a tonne of flexibility in public service for technical experts, because they are rare and valuable.
Leaving behind FAANG compensation will be much more difficult if you take work at a private firm (especially a profitable one), but working for the public you will know your wages are paid by taxation and the contributions of many hard working people -- I think this might help a lot.
There you will find many people seriously impressed with what your low-effort output can produce -- and the best part is that if you choose the related field carefully, you might be substantially helping the lives of people in your country or local area.
Be it health, agriculture, utilities, or some other field, there's likely to be heaps of problems that technology and modern computing are yet to touch. However, the caveat is that often these organisations and their systems are resilient to change -- that's my friendly way of saying they won't want to buy you a computer that can run python, and if you produce code they might be a bit scared to put it in 'production' somewhere.
But if you're brave and a little persistent, your changes can have a real positive impact, and you'll not be working anywhere near as hard/stressfully as an area that understands technology.
Generally speaking, there is room for a tonne of flexibility in public service for technical experts, because they are rare and valuable.
Leaving behind FAANG compensation will be much more difficult if you take work at a private firm (especially a profitable one), but working for the public you will know your wages are paid by taxation and the contributions of many hard working people -- I think this might help a lot.
suck it up; hoard that cash; buy a 10acre farm out mid west; start youtube channel; enjoy new life.
but seriously if you want to leave FAANG then just leave. there are many things one can do in life and maybe consider software might not be the thing you want to do. like if you didn’t need money and had housing. what would you do?
life is short and i did the sea change now life is so f’ing refreshing. wake up do work on the land. go fishing at night. do some computer stuff to make money but it isn’t my identity anymore.
bush/commune camping with a bunch of hippies i realised that having skills in computers is utterly useless skill in the world vs say knowing how to weld or lead a drum circle. computers are useful for business/making money but like if you wanna be useful in the world… what skills are relevant and in demand? not for money but for trade. go learn that stuff. you may just find your burnout problems magically melt away and a love for computers comes back (or not!)
but seriously if you want to leave FAANG then just leave. there are many things one can do in life and maybe consider software might not be the thing you want to do. like if you didn’t need money and had housing. what would you do?
life is short and i did the sea change now life is so f’ing refreshing. wake up do work on the land. go fishing at night. do some computer stuff to make money but it isn’t my identity anymore.
bush/commune camping with a bunch of hippies i realised that having skills in computers is utterly useless skill in the world vs say knowing how to weld or lead a drum circle. computers are useful for business/making money but like if you wanna be useful in the world… what skills are relevant and in demand? not for money but for trade. go learn that stuff. you may just find your burnout problems magically melt away and a love for computers comes back (or not!)
> I have absolutely no interest in leading a team, but senior members in my org keep trying to groom me into a TL. I like being an IC and building what I'm told to build; I have no idea how to decide what it is we should be building and don't want to deal with customer demands.
Have you considered telling this to these "senior members"? I.e "I want to remain an IC. I don't want to be a TL".
Have you considered telling this to these "senior members"? I.e "I want to remain an IC. I don't want to be a TL".
@OP, I'm an EM at "frugal", ldap is hcliff if you want to chat.
I'm assuming OP is L5, which does require "people influencing", although no formal leadership and or TL role is required. You can stay at this level indefinitely.
OP, is your manager ok with your current performance? Is your EM trying to grow you for promo or into the full level reqs? You should seek clarity here and if the former set boundaries/expectations as per the parent comment.
> But now I'm struggling to find motivation to do my work Is this recent? I'm seeing this quite a bit with the current job insecurity and turmoil at the company. As other comments have advocated: therapy and consider extended leave or a team switch. FWIW I don't think lower stakes work is going to fix your motivation, something you care about may.
I'm assuming OP is L5, which does require "people influencing", although no formal leadership and or TL role is required. You can stay at this level indefinitely.
OP, is your manager ok with your current performance? Is your EM trying to grow you for promo or into the full level reqs? You should seek clarity here and if the former set boundaries/expectations as per the parent comment.
> But now I'm struggling to find motivation to do my work Is this recent? I'm seeing this quite a bit with the current job insecurity and turmoil at the company. As other comments have advocated: therapy and consider extended leave or a team switch. FWIW I don't think lower stakes work is going to fix your motivation, something you care about may.
I would say just do it. Towards the start of covid I looked at my employee stock awards program for the first time in a decade and realized I was pretty rich, so I quit. Now I spend my time with my wife and children and I work on the random projects that interest me. It's very low stakes programming, a few hundred stars on github, a bug opened by a random person every few months, and I run a couple websites that see hundreds of visitors a month. Getting into creating TikTok videos as well. I enjoy it.
I don't understand how it's hard to give up the FAANG compensation. Do you want money for the sake of having more money? Personally, I want money to enable me to do things that I want to do in life, which are the things I listed above. Once I had enough I stopped trying to get more.
I don't understand how it's hard to give up the FAANG compensation. Do you want money for the sake of having more money? Personally, I want money to enable me to do things that I want to do in life, which are the things I listed above. Once I had enough I stopped trying to get more.
Meh, just go to a start-up. I went from startups to big tech, including a name that rhymes with "feta", and am back at startups. It's been a compensation roller coaster going from +360% to -68% over 6 years, but I have so much more energy and am making a substantial impact.
" just go to a start-up"
OP lacks motivation to do anything and wants to do "minimal work", "low stakes" and you are suggesting startups ? They will be found out in no time even if hired. With startups, there is no such thing as "minimal work". If anything, pressure will be more than FAANGs with much less benefits and comp.
OP lacks motivation to do anything and wants to do "minimal work", "low stakes" and you are suggesting startups ? They will be found out in no time even if hired. With startups, there is no such thing as "minimal work". If anything, pressure will be more than FAANGs with much less benefits and comp.
> OP lacks motivation to do anything and wants to do "minimal work", "low stakes" and you are suggesting startups ?
I was coming at it more from the angle of Big Co can be pretty de-energizing, whereas at a startup it can be easier to build the energy because there's so much actually impactful stuff to be done, vs. sweating out "impact" for your perf review.
I was coming at it more from the angle of Big Co can be pretty de-energizing, whereas at a startup it can be easier to build the energy because there's so much actually impactful stuff to be done, vs. sweating out "impact" for your perf review.
What's up people not wanting to write "Google" and "Meta" in this thread?
TattleGPT might be reading this thread. Problem is that it can rhyme now.
What's the problem with that though?
One does not want to be caught telling tales out of school when the boss is compiling lists of people to lay off. Do we really think all the bloodletting is done? I expect it to be a quarterly event to keep making the numbers for the stock market gods.
Ah, just good old paranoia. Got it, thanks!
It at least avoids low effort searches for "Google" to point to his user profile, I guess!
I was just following OPs format.
There was a big "living below your means" message I was getting from folks when I was graduating 25 years ago, and I think it has really paid off. Finding a comfortable, satisfying lifestyle that can be funded with mid-level comp has been such advantage for my family.
I say that because whereas I work where I want, there are a number of folks I interact with who drag themselves to jobs they hate because they "can't" leave the comp. Sometimes they really have ratcheted up their COL quite high, and other times it is just too much of blow to imagine their salary cut in half. I'll share my experience of a series of paycuts for ever more interesting work, and the satisfaction that resulted, but it usually doesn't seem to resonate.
I say that because whereas I work where I want, there are a number of folks I interact with who drag themselves to jobs they hate because they "can't" leave the comp. Sometimes they really have ratcheted up their COL quite high, and other times it is just too much of blow to imagine their salary cut in half. I'll share my experience of a series of paycuts for ever more interesting work, and the satisfaction that resulted, but it usually doesn't seem to resonate.
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There is a weird hack about compensation. Move to a place with a much lower cost of living. I'm not talking about suddenly moving to Thailand, you can stay within the US, there are lot of smaller cities that needs tech but their cost of living is much lower.
Basically the math works like this, if your cost of living is 200% US average (San Fran, LA, NYC are there or higher) and you move to a 96% US average your salary might drop 50% but you are still making the same amount of money essentially. In reality it might drop 30% so you will be getting a raise.
Then you can do things like own a house for $100k or less.
Basically the math works like this, if your cost of living is 200% US average (San Fran, LA, NYC are there or higher) and you move to a 96% US average your salary might drop 50% but you are still making the same amount of money essentially. In reality it might drop 30% so you will be getting a raise.
Then you can do things like own a house for $100k or less.
Not really, because saving the same percentage of a much higher salary gets you to retirement or financial independence much faster.
OK, that is true in a way, I do think it depends on when you are thinking about retirement age, your future plans post-retirement, your family situation and how the market is doing in general.
I have 4 kids, in Silicon Valley I would need $1.2M to buy a 4-bedroom house (2018 average). Where I live, I own two 5-bedroom houses for a total of $240K. So now I have secondary income and my taxes are much lower than the $1.2M house taxes. This thing kind of cascades let's say you put $200K down for your $1.2M house, so $1M loan also means your 4% interest will be a lot more money than my 4% interest rate. Your school taxes, and property taxes would be much more $ as well.
All that money has to come from somewhere. Does it mean your 401K % contribution is lower? Does it mean that if you do retire with twice as much money in retirement you will be spending all the profits paying your taxes? Maybe, maybe not.
I think that's kind of impossible to predict clearly what's more beneficial. For me I rather have my houses fully paid by the time I retire, I'm trending to have paid both of them off in about 8-10 years. I'm putting 13% to 401K, 6% in IRA and living a comfortable life. Would I have 4 kids if I living in NYC or the Valley? Definitely not.
I'm not trying to argue that my way is the best way. Just that it's just "a way", an alternative for someone that is tired of working in FAANG and wants something else.
I have 4 kids, in Silicon Valley I would need $1.2M to buy a 4-bedroom house (2018 average). Where I live, I own two 5-bedroom houses for a total of $240K. So now I have secondary income and my taxes are much lower than the $1.2M house taxes. This thing kind of cascades let's say you put $200K down for your $1.2M house, so $1M loan also means your 4% interest will be a lot more money than my 4% interest rate. Your school taxes, and property taxes would be much more $ as well.
All that money has to come from somewhere. Does it mean your 401K % contribution is lower? Does it mean that if you do retire with twice as much money in retirement you will be spending all the profits paying your taxes? Maybe, maybe not.
I think that's kind of impossible to predict clearly what's more beneficial. For me I rather have my houses fully paid by the time I retire, I'm trending to have paid both of them off in about 8-10 years. I'm putting 13% to 401K, 6% in IRA and living a comfortable life. Would I have 4 kids if I living in NYC or the Valley? Definitely not.
I'm not trying to argue that my way is the best way. Just that it's just "a way", an alternative for someone that is tired of working in FAANG and wants something else.
Yeah, but a single person with no kids making $500k in NYC or SF can save $150k+ per year even after all expenses. Then, instead of spending 8-10 years paying off that $240k house in the midwest, they can just buy it for cash and have plenty left over.
Is that on the assumption that you will eventually move to the low COL area as described above?
No, but it does assume you already save a large portion of your paycheque. Suppose you make $400k as a senior SWE at FAANG, or maybe $250k after taxes. Now you move to a lower CoL area and make 30% less - so $280k (for argument's sake suppose taxes are the same, so you take home $175k).
Now supposing your CoL is halved, your CoL needs to have been $150k+ for this to be worth it. Since you lose $75k in pay, and need to make that up from the CoL difference. If you're single, chances are you weren't spending that much on food and housing, so you actually end up with less money. But if you're supporting a big family, you may well have been spending most of your money on necessities and the CoL reduction is worth it. (At least financially.)
Now supposing your CoL is halved, your CoL needs to have been $150k+ for this to be worth it. Since you lose $75k in pay, and need to make that up from the CoL difference. If you're single, chances are you weren't spending that much on food and housing, so you actually end up with less money. But if you're supporting a big family, you may well have been spending most of your money on necessities and the CoL reduction is worth it. (At least financially.)
This is true.
However, one important factor is owning a home. Housing in the Bay Area is really expensive, and substandard. Therefore, you are paying out the nose for a substandard product, and will likely never own a place, even with FAANG comp. Contrast this with most other places, where you could own a (much nicer, larger, recently built) place for the same or slightly larger expense. The high house prices also cost pretty much the same or more in property taxes, even compared to low COL areas that typically have higher property tax rates.
This one is difficult to price, because you are raising your living standard by raising your housing standard for almost the same or substantially lower housing expense (it's even better if you rent and save up even more to buy a lower-priced home in the LCOL area).
However, one important factor is owning a home. Housing in the Bay Area is really expensive, and substandard. Therefore, you are paying out the nose for a substandard product, and will likely never own a place, even with FAANG comp. Contrast this with most other places, where you could own a (much nicer, larger, recently built) place for the same or slightly larger expense. The high house prices also cost pretty much the same or more in property taxes, even compared to low COL areas that typically have higher property tax rates.
This one is difficult to price, because you are raising your living standard by raising your housing standard for almost the same or substantially lower housing expense (it's even better if you rent and save up even more to buy a lower-priced home in the LCOL area).
Meta and Amazon are the most remote friendly. When I interviewed at Google it was a hassle to match with a team that was hiring remote.
Anywhere in the US is very good compensation. London is a different story.
Anywhere in the US is very good compensation. London is a different story.
It is for some of us! Probably not in the cards for everyone, though.
Have you tried finding something intrinsically motivating (even if it's higher effort/higher stakes)? I spent two years at USDS after losing all motivation at AWS. I ended up working harder and on more consequential projects, but it really helped me find the joy in programming again.
FWIW, USDS has let a number of senior/staff ICs from companies whose name rhymes with "frugal" do very short stints (3-4 months).
FWIW, USDS has let a number of senior/staff ICs from companies whose name rhymes with "frugal" do very short stints (3-4 months).
My advice is for you to go talk to a professional therapist.
It's easy, but before you leave, remember: there are very few things in life that matter less than adtech. You will find no shortage of stress and pressure in any field, including ones that pay much less.
First, make sure you don't have too many personal belongings in the office. There's always a chance they'll walk you out of the building on the spot.
Second, tell your manager that you think it's time for a change in your life, and you plan to move on from the company. Your manager probably has an "unregretted attrition" target, so they're unlikely to object to a 2-week notice period if they aren't spiteful.
You will take a big salary hit - make your peace with not owning a downtown penthouse by age 40 - but you probably have enough of a cushion to spend 6-12 months taking stock of your life and goals.
It's not so bad.
First, make sure you don't have too many personal belongings in the office. There's always a chance they'll walk you out of the building on the spot.
Second, tell your manager that you think it's time for a change in your life, and you plan to move on from the company. Your manager probably has an "unregretted attrition" target, so they're unlikely to object to a 2-week notice period if they aren't spiteful.
You will take a big salary hit - make your peace with not owning a downtown penthouse by age 40 - but you probably have enough of a cushion to spend 6-12 months taking stock of your life and goals.
It's not so bad.
Its rare to get walked out, even if going to a competitor.
And unless the OP was on a performance plan or in a lower bucket of ratings (which doesn't sound like it's the case as they're being asked to become a TL), they would not be counted as "unregretted attrition".
And unless the OP was on a performance plan or in a lower bucket of ratings (which doesn't sound like it's the case as they're being asked to become a TL), they would not be counted as "unregretted attrition".
You want to exit big tech, but don't want to give up the comp? I think you may have to make a tough choice.
I know I'll have to give up the comp but like you say, it's a tough choice. Mostly looking to see how others have rationalized this choice.
Money isn't everything. Your most valuable asset is actually your time. Every day you trade for a paycheck is a day you can never get back.
Just treat it (TL) as a job and have external hobbies that you really have passion for. Or perhaps do less days a week and spend time on things you have passion for. The comp can really make a big difference when you are older and retired
Why do you want money? As any financial advisor worth their salt would tell you, money is a means to an end, not an end in itself, and it's up to you to decide what those ends are.
It's very possible that you'd be perfectly happy on less comp, in a role that's more fulfilling. IME, this is a fact that people realize 4ish years into a high-earning career.
For me, I realized that being happy every day is immeasurably more important to me than making a marginal pre-tax $150k/year, and that the FAANG environments are intentionally designed to be incompatible with what brings me happiness, day-to-day. YMMV.
It's very possible that you'd be perfectly happy on less comp, in a role that's more fulfilling. IME, this is a fact that people realize 4ish years into a high-earning career.
For me, I realized that being happy every day is immeasurably more important to me than making a marginal pre-tax $150k/year, and that the FAANG environments are intentionally designed to be incompatible with what brings me happiness, day-to-day. YMMV.
Move to a similar company as an IC - you'll get a change of scenery without giving up the high compensation.
What's NIH?
What's NIH?
I took a pay cut to leave the startup world, looking for a job with more or less the performance characteristics you list above. I found a non-profit doing work I thought was worthwhile. I'm proud of what I do, and it's much easier to explain the value to people compared to a nebulous SaaS product. But because they are not primarily a product company, they have not ever had anything like a death march or long period of crunch time, which I really love. Timelines are quarters years rather than weeks. One downside is the compensation is less, but it's still plenty for me. Another downside is that, not being primarily a product company, it can be frustrating dealing with people who don't have a background in the language and processes around making what products we do have.
Just slip out the back jack, make a new plan Stan.
Your google skills are applicable, you’ll just need to squint and cock your head a bit. Most of the industry standard tools are clones of google internal tools so you’ll recognize them. You’ll need to swap some nouns but the concepts are the same.
You don’t need to coast, you need to get their boot off your neck.
Find a startup doing something interesting and apply. If you’re willing to take a risk I’m sure lots of places would be happy to have you.
Out in the real world you’ll find your motivation and vision again.
Your google skills are applicable, you’ll just need to squint and cock your head a bit. Most of the industry standard tools are clones of google internal tools so you’ll recognize them. You’ll need to swap some nouns but the concepts are the same.
You don’t need to coast, you need to get their boot off your neck.
Find a startup doing something interesting and apply. If you’re willing to take a risk I’m sure lots of places would be happy to have you.
Out in the real world you’ll find your motivation and vision again.
I moved from one of these FAANG companies to another company known for its Culture and work life balance. Since 2023, things have turned very sour and the culture nor Wlb both don't exist anymore and the paycut isn't worth it without those. I'd rather chose the devil I know then the one I don't in your case. My advice to you is to keep searching for your paradise (Large company but slow growth with research division / small company but heavily technical), but be aware that you may never do (without a paycut) and if you do things can change quickly and you'll have to adapt.
I have many friends in San Diego who work comfortable DOD jobs, have job security, and put in minimal effort. Given most of the pack at those places puts in minimal effort, I gather it should be easy to stand-out and impress if you put in a little more than minimal effort.
Furthermore, these engineers get every second Friday off (common practice at many DOD firms). Just something to consider.
Furthermore, these engineers get every second Friday off (common practice at many DOD firms). Just something to consider.
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I am at a different FAANG. Before striking out to find a new job at a different company, I think you should at least pursue opportunities at different teams inside "frugal :P". There definitely are teams which have less scope and oftentimes more ambitious engineers pass those teams by since they are looking for a promotion.
I would probably start looking at something in IT, infra, or internal tooling. Even something like compilers or whatever where you can more focus on iterating and improving an existing codebase.
I would probably start looking at something in IT, infra, or internal tooling. Even something like compilers or whatever where you can more focus on iterating and improving an existing codebase.
Reduce your workweek to 4 days per week, or even 3.
“Frugal” salary band should allow you to still live a comfortable life. Perhaps you will save a bit less. That’s ok, you want to leave anyway and you will earn less in any other place. You will also become ineligible for future promotions. What do you care, you want to leave anyway.
Now use that extra time to find your next thing. Do interviews, or bootstrap your own thing if that’s what motivates you. Be careful with IP and noncompetes.
“Frugal” salary band should allow you to still live a comfortable life. Perhaps you will save a bit less. That’s ok, you want to leave anyway and you will earn less in any other place. You will also become ineligible for future promotions. What do you care, you want to leave anyway.
Now use that extra time to find your next thing. Do interviews, or bootstrap your own thing if that’s what motivates you. Be careful with IP and noncompetes.
I did it a couple of years ago. Just left and accepted a slightly lower compensation in a non-FAANG company, but still a very respectful salary.
Didn't regret it for a moment.
My advice is to just fire some CVs, do some interviews, and see if any of the offers you will eventually get make sense for you, in terms of the ratio of Compensation vs. Responsibility. While you are still employed, you can always refuse offers.
And now it's time to throw this account away. Cya.
Didn't regret it for a moment.
My advice is to just fire some CVs, do some interviews, and see if any of the offers you will eventually get make sense for you, in terms of the ratio of Compensation vs. Responsibility. While you are still employed, you can always refuse offers.
And now it's time to throw this account away. Cya.
>What I feel like I'd really rather do is quit and join a team working on something low stakes. Somewhere where I can put the minimum effort and still impress.
Can you please redo sky.google.com? I want it to have the features of Stellarium Web, with JWST photos, and also include "See a satellite" features.
james.darpinian.com/satellites
This would impress everyone. Good luck on your decision!
Can you please redo sky.google.com? I want it to have the features of Stellarium Web, with JWST photos, and also include "See a satellite" features.
james.darpinian.com/satellites
This would impress everyone. Good luck on your decision!
Living in a third world country I surely do want problems like these in my life.
Also a controversial opinion. I feel in life where you don't have to worry about the base of Maslows hierarchy ( food, rent, clothing) people start making up non-existent problems out of thin air just to feel human again.
Also a controversial opinion. I feel in life where you don't have to worry about the base of Maslows hierarchy ( food, rent, clothing) people start making up non-existent problems out of thin air just to feel human again.
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> I like being an IC and building what I'm told to build; I have no idea how to decide what it is we should be building and don't want to deal with customer demands.
To be honest I'm kind of surprised programmers like this work at frugal
To be honest I'm kind of surprised programmers like this work at frugal
Why is that? This seems like the heart of the labor-hoarding criticism of Google: hire a bunch of smart people, then tell them to churn out low-value code for the ads machine while their RSUs vest and refresh.
True, guess I just had it wrong in my head. I thought this was a code monkey and a code monkey was not something good. All those devs are more successful than me though!
> But it's a hard pill to give up the FAANG compensation
Sounds like you need to decide what are your priorities first? I.e. choose between money, time, or anything in between (part time, sabbatical, etc). Then, commit and act.
Sounds like you need to decide what are your priorities first? I.e. choose between money, time, or anything in between (part time, sabbatical, etc). Then, commit and act.
Find a chill manager on a team that works with or maintains open source software. You can easily find a good position where you are without losing the comp. But stay away from cloud PA.
If you want to put in the minimum effort you’re going to want to stay at big corps.
If you want to be a little IC cog in the machine and build what you’re told, stay at big corps.
If you want to be a little IC cog in the machine and build what you’re told, stay at big corps.
Find a university to work for. The money will likely be less, the time off will likely be more, and the working environment will be relaxed.
> Ask HN: How to Exit FAANG?
:qw
:qw
Have savings.
I'll throw it out there: You sound stressed and burned out.
... Please talk to someone and get some help.
... Please talk to someone and get some help.
When and how long was your last vacation?
depression
But now I'm struggling to find motivation to do my work. I have absolutely no interest in leading a team, but senior members in my org keep trying to groom me into a TL. I like being an IC and building what I'm told to build; I have no idea how to decide what it is we should be building and don't want to deal with customer demands.
What I feel like I'd really rather do is quit and join a team working on something low stakes. Somewhere where I can put the minimum effort and still impress. I think this would be better for my mental health.
But it's a hard pill to give up the FAANG compensation. Also being stuck in a NIH company has atrophied my "real world" tech stack knowledge, so it's harder to market myself (especially now that the job market is saturated with laid off SWEs).
Any advice for jumping ship from FAANG?