Heparin nasal spray may prevent Covid and other viral infections(smh.com.au)
smh.com.au
Heparin nasal spray may prevent Covid and other viral infections
https://www.smh.com.au/national/don-has-never-had-covid-now-volunteers-can-put-his-unique-theory-to-the-test-20230716-p5dokb.html
70 comments
https://archive.md/11SjH
For everyone who is saying "I have never had Covid and ...", given the high rate of asymptomatic spread - how do you know? Have you had a recent antibody test? Kinda fascinated to know.
I've taken a PCR test every time I've gotten sniffly since 2020 and I have never gotten positive.
I suppose asymptomatic is possible but I also just don't go into crowded places much.
I suppose asymptomatic is possible but I also just don't go into crowded places much.
To expound on NoMoreNicksLeft: "Rapid Covid tests miss 90% of asymptomatic cases" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36708301
I was reading the other day that the standard tests give some absurdly high rate of false negatives.
Anecdotally: both of the times I had Covid, I tested negative for a couple of days with two different brands of rapid antigen tests until I had really overt symptoms (bad headache, raging sore throat, fever).
Certainly anecdotally you hear of people who tested for multiple days after they think they may have been exposed and only get a positive result after five days or something like that.
What do you mean by standard tests? PCR? Antigen? Antibody?
The boxed tests, the take-home ones. In particular, the ones available in the United States (I think other countries were using other rapid tests than the US).
I cannot find the link, but the rate was something ridiculous, way north of 50%. I take it with a grain of salt, I can't easily tell if it's just more propaganda from the covid-ain't-real people.
I cannot find the link, but the rate was something ridiculous, way north of 50%. I take it with a grain of salt, I can't easily tell if it's just more propaganda from the covid-ain't-real people.
I assume the standard rapid home antigen tests that the US government was giving out like candy.
I have never gotten it or at least not to my knowledge. I would sure hope that there is a genetic or even T-Cell immunity that could snuff the virus out before it takes a foothold since it could lead to better vaccines/treatments. IMO I think we need to explore vaccines that can develop T-Cell immunity over B-Cells. Antibodies fade and may no longer work as well if the virus mutates, but T-Cells do not have this problem and can actually kill the virus as opposed to creating obstacles for the spread.
An antibody test isn't going to prove an old infection hasn't happened. I probably got it in early 2020 before testing was available. I had my first ever antibody test a couple of months ago for a hospitalization. It was, predictably, negative.
"COVID" or "COVID-19" is the disease. I might have had an aborted or asymptomatic infection due to exposure to SARS-CoV-2 but I've never had COVID.
"Asymptomatic spread of coronavirus is ‘very rare,’ WHO says": https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-pat...
Are those scare quotes or irony that isn't clear? Why link a CNBC article from 2020?
Here's a paper from last year: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9321237/
Yes, it's Omicron, but 32.4% asymptomatic infection is not very rare.
Asymptomatic carriers are 75% as infectious as symptomatic individuals: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
Here's a paper from last year: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9321237/
Yes, it's Omicron, but 32.4% asymptomatic infection is not very rare.
Asymptomatic carriers are 75% as infectious as symptomatic individuals: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
I don't put a huge amount of stock in much of the supposed science from June 2020. Also, as in my case, people definitely got mild symptoms of something, tested (if they could), got a negative result, and went on with life--when it's entirely possible they had it.
That's interesting. I also have never caught Covid despite everyone in family getting it (wife, kids, parents, friends, etc...). And I also take a blood thinner for my heart troubles.
There is another affordable nasal spray called Xlear purported to have similar benefits. It consists of Xylitol and Grapefruit Seed Extract.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9313533/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9313533/
The study was probably motivated by this: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2021/10/...
Note that the study was conducted by companies that are in the business of conducting paid clinical trial for supplements manufacturers, and both were paid by the makers of XClear, so the study should be taken with a heaping grain of salt....
Especially considering that there is no other research suggesting that either xylitol or grape fruit extract is protective against COVID. Both are antimicrobials (i.e., antibacterial) but COVID is a virus.
Note that the study was conducted by companies that are in the business of conducting paid clinical trial for supplements manufacturers, and both were paid by the makers of XClear, so the study should be taken with a heaping grain of salt....
Especially considering that there is no other research suggesting that either xylitol or grape fruit extract is protective against COVID. Both are antimicrobials (i.e., antibacterial) but COVID is a virus.
> Especially considering that there is no other research suggesting that either xylitol or grape fruit extract is protective against COVID. Both are antimicrobials (i.e., antibacterial) but COVID is a virus
There are pre-print studies suggesting antiviral activity.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.19.225854v1....
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.23.394114v1....
There are pre-print studies suggesting antiviral activity.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.19.225854v1....
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.23.394114v1....
No, that 1st study merely confirms what is already known: that carageen has antiviral properties.
And the second link is just a precursor to the original study to make it seem like it was conducted separately (the researchers are the same). Even so, they found a concentration of greater than 80% was required for Xlear to have any statistical antiviral effects.
And the second link is just a precursor to the original study to make it seem like it was conducted separately (the researchers are the same). Even so, they found a concentration of greater than 80% was required for Xlear to have any statistical antiviral effects.
I'm pretty skeptical, but that's what research is for. I wish them luck though because if it does work it'll make a lot of people's lives easier.
> But Campbell said when used via a spray, it would not be absorbed by the body
This is a claim that appears to be presented entirely without evidence, and - as written - is nonsensical. Nasal insufflation is an extremely common method for administering drugs, and it's readily absorbed directly into the bloodstream.
If there's a reason he believes heparin is not absorbed through this route, that's a notable and surprising claim.
This is a claim that appears to be presented entirely without evidence, and - as written - is nonsensical. Nasal insufflation is an extremely common method for administering drugs, and it's readily absorbed directly into the bloodstream.
If there's a reason he believes heparin is not absorbed through this route, that's a notable and surprising claim.
As far as I know, there’s no receptor for GAGs on cells to mediate their uptake specifically. Usually they hitchhike on some other protein that has a specific receptor/co-receptor. Heparin is actually a sulfated polysaccharide, and not like those other drugs that you might be thinking about.
I’d be a little skeptical about spraying in a bunch of heparin and hoping it binds enough of the spike protein.
This whole idea is predicated on the binding of heparin (a sulfated polysaccharide) to the spike. It’s known to be a co-receptor on cells for the spike protein, and people have designed very clever flow devices to exploit this binding to perform detection of spike. However, without carefully controlling the sulfation on heparin, I would be worried about all the other binding of proteins, and how effective this would be in real complex environments.
There are also open questions about how you would even retain the GAGs in the mucosal environment, and as I haven’t heard that they bind to mucins/mucus, I wonder how many other proteins they could possibly anchor to.
This whole idea is predicated on the binding of heparin (a sulfated polysaccharide) to the spike. It’s known to be a co-receptor on cells for the spike protein, and people have designed very clever flow devices to exploit this binding to perform detection of spike. However, without carefully controlling the sulfation on heparin, I would be worried about all the other binding of proteins, and how effective this would be in real complex environments.
There are also open questions about how you would even retain the GAGs in the mucosal environment, and as I haven’t heard that they bind to mucins/mucus, I wonder how many other proteins they could possibly anchor to.
This is stupid.
"Doesn't enter the bloodstream" "it coats the spike protein".
Seems like a nose plug or an N95 mask would be cheaper and more effective than wasting blood thinner down the back of your throat for makeshift bug repellant.
'Wondering' aloud to the press about it, though, places this firmly in Snake Oil territory. The man knows better, but he's doin' it anyways.
Should tell ya somethin'.
"Doesn't enter the bloodstream" "it coats the spike protein".
Seems like a nose plug or an N95 mask would be cheaper and more effective than wasting blood thinner down the back of your throat for makeshift bug repellant.
'Wondering' aloud to the press about it, though, places this firmly in Snake Oil territory. The man knows better, but he's doin' it anyways.
Should tell ya somethin'.
This is not stupid. The reporting is stupid. The way science here works:
Step 1: People come up with a hundred hypotheses
Step 2: Six of them are confirmed in preliminary studies, five by fluke (false positives) and one true positive
Step 3: The one true positive is confirmed in multiple replication studies
Step 3 is when we get to a reasonable scientific theory or scientific fact.
The problem is step 1.5 or 2.5: Popular press picks up a hypothesis as "science" or (at 2.5) as peer-reviewed science, often promoted by the original researcher.
We absolutely should be investigating heparin, ivermectin, vitamin D, zinc, and other speculative drugs for effects. Outside of exceptional circumstances, we absolutely should not be recommending those for general use until they're validated.
As a footnote, machine learning supercharges this process. It can generate countless speculative drugs very rapidly. The vast majority are nonsense, but the tiny minority which work make it still worthwhile. If we have a something with a 1% chance of curing a disease, it takes, on average, 100 similar trials to cure that disease. For major diseases, that (or even much longer-shot cures) is completely worth it.
Step 1: People come up with a hundred hypotheses
Step 2: Six of them are confirmed in preliminary studies, five by fluke (false positives) and one true positive
Step 3: The one true positive is confirmed in multiple replication studies
Step 3 is when we get to a reasonable scientific theory or scientific fact.
The problem is step 1.5 or 2.5: Popular press picks up a hypothesis as "science" or (at 2.5) as peer-reviewed science, often promoted by the original researcher.
We absolutely should be investigating heparin, ivermectin, vitamin D, zinc, and other speculative drugs for effects. Outside of exceptional circumstances, we absolutely should not be recommending those for general use until they're validated.
As a footnote, machine learning supercharges this process. It can generate countless speculative drugs very rapidly. The vast majority are nonsense, but the tiny minority which work make it still worthwhile. If we have a something with a 1% chance of curing a disease, it takes, on average, 100 similar trials to cure that disease. For major diseases, that (or even much longer-shot cures) is completely worth it.
> As a footnote, machine learning supercharges this process. It can generate countless speculative drugs very rapidly. The vast majority are nonsense, but the tiny minority which work make it still worthwhile.
Is this actually happening right now or are we just creating a speculative future for ourselves. Who is running the sanity checks on these huge number of potential medications to make sure the drugs aren't obviously poisonous?
Is this actually happening right now or are we just creating a speculative future for ourselves. Who is running the sanity checks on these huge number of potential medications to make sure the drugs aren't obviously poisonous?
Yes. This is happening. Ultimately, drugs created this way go through the same checks as any other drug. Most drugs, created this way or otherwise, don't work and are potentially poisonous. That's why the processes here are super-rigorous.
We've been over this 100 times: very few people can wear an n95 mask correctly. Men have to be clean shaven too, and you're supposed to perform a seal test using a mint spray. They're also supposed to be one time use.
Masks of secondary effects: a global waste problem. It's time to stop promoting these as a "solution" to a non-existant problem.
Masks of secondary effects: a global waste problem. It's time to stop promoting these as a "solution" to a non-existant problem.
The clean shaven part isn't true any more. There's a reason first responders are no longer required to be clean cut.
>It's time to stop promoting these as a "solution" to a non-existant problem.
What do you mean by non existent problem?
>It's time to stop promoting these as a "solution" to a non-existant problem.
What do you mean by non existent problem?
And the flip side: N95 masks don't need to be worn correctly to be effective for preventing most Covid spread. Covid seems to require moderate viral loads to spread, and even an incorrectly-worn N95 mask tends to do that.
And with proper care, N95 masks can be reused.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/can-you-reuse-a-kn...
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/can-you-reuse-a-kn...
Non-existant?
Anecdotally I've never had covid and use a simple saline nasal wash once or twice a week, or after being indoors with a large group.
I've never had Covid (as far as I know) and I dont take anything (except vaccines).
Hell my kids and wife have all had covid and the flu, and I've looked after them all and I haven't been sick beyond a dribbly nose in about 5-6 years. (oh with the exception of being bedridden for a few days FROM the vaccine :-P )
Hell my kids and wife have all had covid and the flu, and I've looked after them all and I haven't been sick beyond a dribbly nose in about 5-6 years. (oh with the exception of being bedridden for a few days FROM the vaccine :-P )
I have Cystic Fibrosis, and despite getting ill a few times during the pandemic (which is kinda par for the course with CF) I always tested negative. Even when my wife had it (and we were definitely not socially distancing before, in all the ways you'd imagine), I never tested positive.
My stepdad has never shown symptoms of (nor tested positive for) COVID, never really wore a mask properly, and has been exposed dozens of times. He even walked away unscathed despite living the house with my mom who had it twice.
I keep telling him I want to send him to a lab.
I keep telling him I want to send him to a lab.
Home COVID tests generally don’t show results from most asymptomatic cases even if they are actively fighting it off. It’s a question of viral loads being high enough to kick their immune system into high gear without being high enough to be easy to detect or easy to infect others.
Chances are he got COVID and fought it off without particularly noticing which isn’t in any way unusual for healthy people. 1+ million dead Americans demonstrates it’s a serious disease, but that doesn’t mean everyone was hit equally.
Chances are he got COVID and fought it off without particularly noticing which isn’t in any way unusual for healthy people. 1+ million dead Americans demonstrates it’s a serious disease, but that doesn’t mean everyone was hit equally.
He's had at least two negative PCR tests taken at separate highly likely times of infection :)
PCR tests for the disease which makes is very sensitive to viral loads. This is why the advice is “If you do not have symptoms but have been exposed to COVID-19, wait at least 5 full days after your exposure before taking a test.” https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/symptoms-testing/t...
Many people will fight off an infection in those 5 days, but it’s not considered a problem as asymptomatic people are unlikely to spread the disease. PCR accuracy of asymptomatic people is still surprisingly low, but again that’s not necessarily a problem.
Many people will fight off an infection in those 5 days, but it’s not considered a problem as asymptomatic people are unlikely to spread the disease. PCR accuracy of asymptomatic people is still surprisingly low, but again that’s not necessarily a problem.
It's only by sheer coincidence that I learned I had it. In spite of testing twice (negative) after I developed a very slight cough following an event--which I wrote off to typical conference crud at that point--a couple weeks later I had to get tested before attending another event. (I had no symptoms of anything at that point.) And I tested weakly positive.
If I hadn't been attending the other (actually third) event, I'd never have known.
I believe that people who have been consistently super-cautious and generally avoided indoor crowds may have avoided catching it. But most people who travel, shop in stores, go to indoor events, etc. have probably had it even if they can't prove it.
If I hadn't been attending the other (actually third) event, I'd never have known.
I believe that people who have been consistently super-cautious and generally avoided indoor crowds may have avoided catching it. But most people who travel, shop in stores, go to indoor events, etc. have probably had it even if they can't prove it.
Seems unlikely, but would be rather obviously amazing if it pans out. Would be fun to see a prediction market on stuff like this to get a good guide on how much faith others have in it.
I expect this will be the dominant comment theme:
I also never had covid, and never sprayed any weird shit up my nose.
But it just all has so much more meaning when there's a product to push...
I'm not particulaly introverted, did get vacinated and follow polite social practices (distancing, mask in public) but otherwise didn't take any special precautions. But then again, I'm not shilling for any product vendor either...
I also never had covid, and never sprayed any weird shit up my nose.
But it just all has so much more meaning when there's a product to push...
I'm not particulaly introverted, did get vacinated and follow polite social practices (distancing, mask in public) but otherwise didn't take any special precautions. But then again, I'm not shilling for any product vendor either...
Isn’t it impossible to know if you haven’t had Covid once vaccinated? (Because you will test positive for antibodies regardless)
You can get tests that see if you have antibodies for the non-spike regions of SARS-CoV-2. The vaccines only made anti-spike antibodies and people who were infected will have antibodies to other regions of the virus that the vaccine that did not target.
But isn't that also time limited to about 6 weeks, so you would have to have regular tests as well?
You can test specifically for vaccine antibodies, which are limited in diversity.
I also never had COVID, and the "weird shit" I put up my nose is a saline / bicarb solution in distilled water. I'll skip the brand name, but your drug store carries it.
And there are peer-reviewed studies about its efficacy.
On the other hand, I don't have kids & wasn't in crowds very much, so there's that.
And there are peer-reviewed studies about its efficacy.
On the other hand, I don't have kids & wasn't in crowds very much, so there's that.
Similar, but I've used Sanotize Enovid nitric oxide spray before going to a restaurant or other crowded place and when my spouse had covid at home.
https://sanotize.com/clinical-trials-covid/
https://sanotize.com/clinical-trials-covid/
> And there are peer-reviewed studies about its efficacy.
Do you have any links?
I find it hard to believe that bicarb has absolutely anything to do with preventing COVID, except maybe because it blocks your nose?
Do you have any links?
I find it hard to believe that bicarb has absolutely anything to do with preventing COVID, except maybe because it blocks your nose?
go to Google Scholar. The links are about preventing COVID from getting serious once you already have it.
the bicarb & saline are purely for comfort. The one time I left them out, I was reminded why people shy away from putting water up their noses: it burns.
the bicarb & saline are purely for comfort. The one time I left them out, I was reminded why people shy away from putting water up their noses: it burns.
So you are saying that putting plain water up your nose prevents COVID?
Searching Google scholar only shows one paper with about 60 people reviewed and an improvement of 30% from the control group not getting COVID, to 40% didn't get COVID if they washed their nose. Not exactly great numbers when you have so few people.
I don't see anything serious about your theory.
Searching Google scholar only shows one paper with about 60 people reviewed and an improvement of 30% from the control group not getting COVID, to 40% didn't get COVID if they washed their nose. Not exactly great numbers when you have so few people.
I don't see anything serious about your theory.
I'm saying there is reputable evidence. I don't understand your hostility to this, or why you think these aren't serious:
https://www.uclahealth.org/news/nasal-irrigation-may-help-wo...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/09/220913110403.h...
Aside from the formal research, there is clinical support for it: just ask your doctor. Most likely he or she will say, "Sure, go ahead. A lot of my patients do it." That's what mine said.
And finally, I've found on previous social network discussions (including on HN) that the practice is fairly widespread.
And don't paraphrase me ("So you are saying..."). I said what I said.
https://www.uclahealth.org/news/nasal-irrigation-may-help-wo...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/09/220913110403.h...
sample size of 79
Aside from the formal research, there is clinical support for it: just ask your doctor. Most likely he or she will say, "Sure, go ahead. A lot of my patients do it." That's what mine said.
And finally, I've found on previous social network discussions (including on HN) that the practice is fairly widespread.
And don't paraphrase me ("So you are saying..."). I said what I said.
Same. I haven't caught covid or any cold in three years now. Working remotely, use an N95 in public spaces.. Happy introvert without kids.
Same here. And I'm still living my life as I want - I go out to concerts, theaters, and restaurants, I just mask up when the situation allows. I haven't felt sick since 2020 and it's awesome. Used to catch a cold once a quarter.
Am I alone in assuming that spraying heparin your nose would give you a terrible nose-bleed?
> Am I alone in assuming that spraying heparin your nose would give you a terrible nose-bleed?
Seems like you're not alone.
> People can participate in the trial if they live in Melbourne, are aged over five and have a household member who is also willing to take part. People who have a heparin-induced allergy or have had recent severe nosebleeds are ineligible
Seems like you're not alone.
> People can participate in the trial if they live in Melbourne, are aged over five and have a household member who is also willing to take part. People who have a heparin-induced allergy or have had recent severe nosebleeds are ineligible
I haven't had cold, flu or COVID since 2018.
I'm just introverted and don't have kids.
I'm just introverted and don't have kids.
Similarly, I've never been in a skydiving accident. Because I've never been skydiving.
> don't have kids.
Kids have the to be the biggest spreaders of sickness in the US.
Kids have the to be the biggest spreaders of sickness in the US.
tied with cruise ships.
Well before COVID, several people I know went on cruises and came home sick.
Well before COVID, several people I know went on cruises and came home sick.
Cruises ships, the daycare of the seas.
I recently met an introverted and also reclusive person who was still spewing discontent about the entire covid operation, everything from its existence to the vaccine
I thought that was funny, like an internet commenter still stuck in December 2020 but in person
Not saying thats you, your comment just reminded me how disconnected some people are
I thought that was funny, like an internet commenter still stuck in December 2020 but in person
Not saying thats you, your comment just reminded me how disconnected some people are