Apple iPhone 15 Pro and iPhone 15 Pro Max(apple.com)
apple.com
Apple iPhone 15 Pro and iPhone 15 Pro Max
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/09/apple-unveils-iphone-15-pro-and-iphone-15-pro-max/
511 comments
Is it though? The promise of gaming on iPhone (and mobile gaming in general) has been taken over and destroyed by freemium games whose only goal is to push microtransactions. What is a marginally better GPU going to accomplish? Help games sell me their "bundle of gems" faster?
Developers simply do not have the incentive to build any other kinds of games when the current crop of addictive shovelware is so damn profitable. The sad part is that Apple encourages this practice because it is easy money for them (via their 30% cut). The problem needs to be fixed by better quality control and transaction/gambling rules, not a faster processor.
Developers simply do not have the incentive to build any other kinds of games when the current crop of addictive shovelware is so damn profitable. The sad part is that Apple encourages this practice because it is easy money for them (via their 30% cut). The problem needs to be fixed by better quality control and transaction/gambling rules, not a faster processor.
Early mobile games were such a delight. I have fond memories of Angry Birds, Plants vs Zombies, Cut the Rope, Flight Control, Threes, Monument Valley, Bad Piggies...
But then predatory freemium games like Clash of Clans and newer replacements for Angry Birds and Plants vs Zombies burned me out. They eliminated any desire I had to invest time or money or attention into mobile games. Popular freemium games in the App Store now bury any new gems. It's quite disappointing.
A better GPU isn't going to help the situation.
But then predatory freemium games like Clash of Clans and newer replacements for Angry Birds and Plants vs Zombies burned me out. They eliminated any desire I had to invest time or money or attention into mobile games. Popular freemium games in the App Store now bury any new gems. It's quite disappointing.
A better GPU isn't going to help the situation.
IMO this has so much to do with how Apple advertises the App Store. They were able to get people to spend some money on apps, which was a HUGE improvement over no money at all. But then, instead of managing to get people to pay higher upfront prices, they heavily supported a race to the bottom and micro transactions, which inevitably resulted in freemium games that felt like casinos.
Unfortunately that isn't just true for games but also for apps. I wish Apple had focused more on building a healthier App Store ecosystem.
Unfortunately that isn't just true for games but also for apps. I wish Apple had focused more on building a healthier App Store ecosystem.
They've been actively fostering the enshitiffication of the App Store. Practises like preventing paid upgrades forces developers to use micro-transactions to survive. They also aggressively change and deprecate APIs without adequate notice or documentation. This means apps require constant maintenance. So one-time purchases are much less viable for developers.
Soon we'll be able to install whichever apps we like in the EU thanks to the DMA. I think there is a hunger for alternative app stores.
Soon we'll be able to install whichever apps we like in the EU thanks to the DMA. I think there is a hunger for alternative app stores.
One could argue that Apple Arcade is exactly that healthier ecosystem. Games with less bullshit and no in-app purchases.
It's a tiny garden in a dump of shit. Some titles probably can't make money from a revenue share of service that costs $6 a month.
Which is fine, because I don't need a thousand games. Honestly the only thing I wish Arcade offered is more games for the 5–10 year old crowd.
Not to mention the rise of the dreaded Subscription Model. That has to be the most miserable scam ever inflicted upon software users. I’m sure a lot of developers here will disagree and quote needing a constant stream of revenue, but the same is true of any business including a Mom&Pop corner shop—and yet they survive (or don’t) on the margin they make on the products they sell, not by selling a subscription card you need to possess in order to have the privilege of shopping at their store.
>Angry Birds, Plants vs Zombies, Cut the Rope, Flight Control, Threes
My list of games is basically the same. I think they are legitimately rare, and we believe at the time that they are not. It's like YouTube. You find one 3blue1brown or Adam Neely and you think there are a hundred more. There aren't.
My list of games is basically the same. I think they are legitimately rare, and we believe at the time that they are not. It's like YouTube. You find one 3blue1brown or Adam Neely and you think there are a hundred more. There aren't.
I still play Threes! to this day, still haven't been able to get a 6000 card even after all these years.
I don't think there's a mobile game out there that has given me more entertainment.
I don't think there's a mobile game out there that has given me more entertainment.
I feel seen!
Just over 200k is my high-score and I've yet to witness the 6144 card. Still out here trying though!
Just over 200k is my high-score and I've yet to witness the 6144 card. Still out here trying though!
My high-score is 247,641 which is basically a 3072 and a 1536 but at that point... I don't know. I feel like my technique is lacking, it's as though there's just something I don't know that will make me better and I can't access that knowledge. Probably planning ahead for potential killing cards?
But as you say, still out there trying.
But as you say, still out there trying.
Threes! was literally the perfect game at launch.
Of course, the shitty free clone 2048 took the concept, made it worse, and somehow (because it was free) captured the majority of the market.
I still play Threes! regularly as well.
Of course, the shitty free clone 2048 took the concept, made it worse, and somehow (because it was free) captured the majority of the market.
I still play Threes! regularly as well.
Anybody remember GeoDefence or Tap Tap Revenge?
These weren't hidden gems either, these were front and center promoted links in the App Store. I'm sure it's possible to find experiences like these in modern games, but I've given up hope long ago. I don't have time to sift through the trash.
These weren't hidden gems either, these were front and center promoted links in the App Store. I'm sure it's possible to find experiences like these in modern games, but I've given up hope long ago. I don't have time to sift through the trash.
Tiny Wings and Alto's Adventure were standouts for me. Also Device 6 gave me some hope that puzzle games could be special on mobile. But that dream never materialized unfortunately.
TouchHLE supports emulating a bunch of these (only on android devices, windows or macos, because, you know, Apple)
This is a really short sighted and defeatist view on the potential of mobile gaming. Mobile gaming started before iPhones, and it will be around probably for the rest of human civilization.
There is no way 1 generation of games can "take over and destroy" the "promise of gaming" because there are no restrictions on what future innovators can do with the tools and the platforms. The existence of some bad games doesn't preclude future good games.
As an example, my favorite mobile game is Slay the Spire
There is no way 1 generation of games can "take over and destroy" the "promise of gaming" because there are no restrictions on what future innovators can do with the tools and the platforms. The existence of some bad games doesn't preclude future good games.
As an example, my favorite mobile game is Slay the Spire
Nothing will change barring a change in economics (subsidies for quality games, Apple not taking a 30% cut on microtransactions, somehow prices for good indie games going up) or a change in human nature (people seem to just play shitty games from what I see in the NYC subway).
We already have beautiful mobile games, like Monument Valley. But that's not what the market is about. The very term "mobile game" reeks of low quality at this point. I don't see it changing.
We already have beautiful mobile games, like Monument Valley. But that's not what the market is about. The very term "mobile game" reeks of low quality at this point. I don't see it changing.
> We already have beautiful mobile games, like Monument Valley. But that's not what the market is about. The very term "mobile game" reeks of low quality at this point.
What exactly is it that you are after? It seems like you are not content simply getting the games you want, such as Monument Valley. You also need everyone else to live their life a certain way?
Why not simply conclude that the market is big enough for everyone to coexist. And as long as there's games for you, you don't have to lament other people sitting around enjoying candy crush.
What exactly is it that you are after? It seems like you are not content simply getting the games you want, such as Monument Valley. You also need everyone else to live their life a certain way?
Why not simply conclude that the market is big enough for everyone to coexist. And as long as there's games for you, you don't have to lament other people sitting around enjoying candy crush.
> You also need everyone else to live their life a certain way?
Well, yes, I need — or rather, would prefer — all the people who are addicted to portable slot machines, to stop throwing their lives away being addicted to portable slot machines.
But I don't blame those people for that, nor do I think that trying to get them to each personally attempt to overcome their addiction would be practical.
People with gambling addictions are people with a particular cognitive vulnerability to variable-scheduled rewards. Unlike people with other addictions, who "go overboard" on something that other people can "enjoy responsibly" (and so which society has a reason to otherwise permit), people with gambling addictions are the targets of products and services produced solely to target them, that people without gambling addictions just... don't see the point of. Slot machines of all sorts exist to commercially exploit gambling addicts. And they do so very well.
That very exploitation was why the US had outlawed casinos in almost every state; why casinos are 19+ to enter, even when not serving alcohol; why "casino game" video games must be rated M; why even depictions of gambling affect the age-ratings for TV shows and movies.
But now that exploitation has leaked. It's no longer limited to casinos; it's now everywhere in the palm of your hand — and not just bare-faced as "casino games", but also in the guise of everything from shooters to RPGs, all with their own variable-scheduled rewards that can suck up unbounded amounts of your very real money.
Obviously, I blame the exploiters — the "gaming" [i.e. casino] industry, and the ex-"gaming"-industry professionals infecting the games industry with their exploitation tactics. And also, I blame society, for not punishing the exploiters, not outlawing the exploitation.
> sitting around enjoying candy crush
My dude, Candy Crush is a great, fun, classic, and ethical game compared to what they have these days. Have you looked at the mobile casual games market in the last five years? If the words "rare JPEG" don't mean anything to you, then you should really spend a few minutes looking into the people throwing away their life savings on some of these "games."
Well, yes, I need — or rather, would prefer — all the people who are addicted to portable slot machines, to stop throwing their lives away being addicted to portable slot machines.
But I don't blame those people for that, nor do I think that trying to get them to each personally attempt to overcome their addiction would be practical.
People with gambling addictions are people with a particular cognitive vulnerability to variable-scheduled rewards. Unlike people with other addictions, who "go overboard" on something that other people can "enjoy responsibly" (and so which society has a reason to otherwise permit), people with gambling addictions are the targets of products and services produced solely to target them, that people without gambling addictions just... don't see the point of. Slot machines of all sorts exist to commercially exploit gambling addicts. And they do so very well.
That very exploitation was why the US had outlawed casinos in almost every state; why casinos are 19+ to enter, even when not serving alcohol; why "casino game" video games must be rated M; why even depictions of gambling affect the age-ratings for TV shows and movies.
But now that exploitation has leaked. It's no longer limited to casinos; it's now everywhere in the palm of your hand — and not just bare-faced as "casino games", but also in the guise of everything from shooters to RPGs, all with their own variable-scheduled rewards that can suck up unbounded amounts of your very real money.
Obviously, I blame the exploiters — the "gaming" [i.e. casino] industry, and the ex-"gaming"-industry professionals infecting the games industry with their exploitation tactics. And also, I blame society, for not punishing the exploiters, not outlawing the exploitation.
> sitting around enjoying candy crush
My dude, Candy Crush is a great, fun, classic, and ethical game compared to what they have these days. Have you looked at the mobile casual games market in the last five years? If the words "rare JPEG" don't mean anything to you, then you should really spend a few minutes looking into the people throwing away their life savings on some of these "games."
I share parent's sentiment, with a slightly different angle: we already see what good mobile games are. They're on the Switch, SteamDeck, portable emulators etc.
In comparison games that can't survive under the Nintendo rules but still need a wide platform flourish on smartphones. That's where we see the split between games that can stand without micro-transaction and dark patterns, and those that can't. Genshin has been announced to come to the Switch for years now, and I'm not holding my breath given their mechanics, while the new iPhone's GPU capabilities are straight aimed at letting Hoyo thrive.
In comparison games that can't survive under the Nintendo rules but still need a wide platform flourish on smartphones. That's where we see the split between games that can stand without micro-transaction and dark patterns, and those that can't. Genshin has been announced to come to the Switch for years now, and I'm not holding my breath given their mechanics, while the new iPhone's GPU capabilities are straight aimed at letting Hoyo thrive.
Steam also takes 30% from the first $10 million in sales, so I'm not sure what it is about the app store that incentivizes this. The incentives are arguably identical on Steam. I think it has more to do with the nature of the device (Touch controls, people using it on their bathroom breaks, etc) than it does with any economic situations.
To be fair, steam offers a massive amount of goodies on top, including a built in mod store, tools for multiplayer, forums, and many more. I'd argue that the platform is worth at least 10% if used to it's fullest (and after a certain threshold the 30% goes down anyway — though imo it should start low for small studios)
The same cannot be said for the app store. Save from basic DRM (steam has this), leaderboards (steam has this) & achievements (steam has this), you get much less for that cut.
The same cannot be said for the app store. Save from basic DRM (steam has this), leaderboards (steam has this) & achievements (steam has this), you get much less for that cut.
Plus, as a developer, you're not required to go through Steam, if you don't think it's worth it.
There are plenty of other options (Epic Games, Microsoft Store, etc.), each with a different revenue share arrangement. Or you can self-publish on your own website and infrastructure (Minecraft did this and it worked out pretty well for them).
Most developers (not all!) clearly have decided that the value Steam provides (features+audience) is worth it. But, crucially, with Steam, it's a choice. With iOS, it's not. You are forced to go through the App Store whether you like it or not (for now, at least). And if tomorrow Apple decides that 30% is not enough and they'd like a bit more, there's not much you can do about it.
(Apologies if this is not terribly relevant to the rest of the thread, but it bugs me when I see this kind of "apples to apples" comparisons between Steam and the App Store)
There are plenty of other options (Epic Games, Microsoft Store, etc.), each with a different revenue share arrangement. Or you can self-publish on your own website and infrastructure (Minecraft did this and it worked out pretty well for them).
Most developers (not all!) clearly have decided that the value Steam provides (features+audience) is worth it. But, crucially, with Steam, it's a choice. With iOS, it's not. You are forced to go through the App Store whether you like it or not (for now, at least). And if tomorrow Apple decides that 30% is not enough and they'd like a bit more, there's not much you can do about it.
(Apologies if this is not terribly relevant to the rest of the thread, but it bugs me when I see this kind of "apples to apples" comparisons between Steam and the App Store)
Even on my Steamdeck I have itch.io and other launchers installed. Granted as a consumer, cross platform cloud saves of Steam and my 19 year old catalog has a pretty strong network effect.
For me mods and multiplayer are worth more than 10%. That said, I also play multiplayer games on the AppStore, although the Game Center friends functionality isn’t as good as Steam’s.
Sure, nothing can stop shitty games from being published, but the market for shitty games existing does not mean a market for quality games does not. There’s many developers who make things like phone games as passion projects as well.
The potential of mobile gaming has came and gone.
Outside of small, niche indie games (which are great and do well within their own respect), free-to-play gacha games is the 'state of the art.
Outside of small, niche indie games (which are great and do well within their own respect), free-to-play gacha games is the 'state of the art.
I'm sorry but console and PC games have been infinitely better since forever, giving much better products with much more limited resources for much of their existence.
Smartphones have existed for a long time now, and the games absolutely suck, except the extremely rare high quality indie game port like Papers Please or Slay the Spire.
Smartphones have existed for a long time now, and the games absolutely suck, except the extremely rare high quality indie game port like Papers Please or Slay the Spire.
Is Slay the Spire a mobile game or a game ported to mobile? It originally launched on PC, then consoles then mobile. It's a game that works well on mobile and on touchscreens yet that wasn't the priority...
Ok. But “mobile gaming” maybe started with those single game Tetris gadgets.
I really wish micro transactions were made illegal in applications on the app stores…and video games in general. It encourages additive behaviour and lowers the quality of games as the purpose becomes to make the additive micro transaction aspect as addictive as possible.
If some new policy changed this, I think we’d see a whole new wave of higher quality games
If some new policy changed this, I think we’d see a whole new wave of higher quality games
How would you define a micro-transaction?
Maybe we need a pornography-like definition ("I know it when I see it") but I think there is certainly a continuum from high-quality DLC / expansions to existing games (which can be basically a new game) down to crystals which allow you to instantly buy something which you'd have got anyway if you had waited.
So, consider a basic, Mario-kart like racing game - which of these are OK, and which are micro-transactions?
- buying additional courses,
- buying additional characters (drivers), vehicles, or components of vehicle (e.g. wheels, engines, bodies),
- buying purely cosmetic changes (e.g. driver outfits, vehicle colours),
- buying permanent upgrades to your vehicle(s) (i.e. more speed, better acceleration, better handling)
- buying one-off power-ups that last for a single race, or are time-limited (+50% acceleration for 1 hour)
- buying 'cheats' - obvious play-to-win items (e.g. needing to complete 1 fewer lap than your opponent),
- buying regular game-progression; e.g. maybe 100 races/wins/hours of play are normally required to unlock all courses, but this can also be instantly purchased.
- any of the above options, but not bought directly, but rather via purchasing 'crystals' which can be exchanged for the above.
- any of the above options, but in a 'gatcha' style (i.e. loot boxes; you cannot choose which upgrade you want),
I think I'd be totally OK with the top three, maybe OK with buying permanent upgrades, and unlocking game progression (in this case), but the others are too far for me.
Maybe we need a pornography-like definition ("I know it when I see it") but I think there is certainly a continuum from high-quality DLC / expansions to existing games (which can be basically a new game) down to crystals which allow you to instantly buy something which you'd have got anyway if you had waited.
So, consider a basic, Mario-kart like racing game - which of these are OK, and which are micro-transactions?
- buying additional courses,
- buying additional characters (drivers), vehicles, or components of vehicle (e.g. wheels, engines, bodies),
- buying purely cosmetic changes (e.g. driver outfits, vehicle colours),
- buying permanent upgrades to your vehicle(s) (i.e. more speed, better acceleration, better handling)
- buying one-off power-ups that last for a single race, or are time-limited (+50% acceleration for 1 hour)
- buying 'cheats' - obvious play-to-win items (e.g. needing to complete 1 fewer lap than your opponent),
- buying regular game-progression; e.g. maybe 100 races/wins/hours of play are normally required to unlock all courses, but this can also be instantly purchased.
- any of the above options, but not bought directly, but rather via purchasing 'crystals' which can be exchanged for the above.
- any of the above options, but in a 'gatcha' style (i.e. loot boxes; you cannot choose which upgrade you want),
I think I'd be totally OK with the top three, maybe OK with buying permanent upgrades, and unlocking game progression (in this case), but the others are too far for me.
All of them are micro-transactions.
Some micro transactions are tolerable, some of the time, but every single one of these commercializes the product. IMO if they exist, the game should be free-to-play. Where I really get annoyed are games like Lego2K (racing game) where you pay $60 to play, and then it's also full of microtransactions (for cars, courses, cosmetics, you name it).
I think it's a different matter when it's a content-filled DLC add-on to the game. Yes, the line for that is a bit arbitrary, but the classic example would be Starcraft: Brood War (well, technically that was an expansion pack, but same idea). Adding a single additional course to a racing game blurs the line, I generally think content should be bundled so the gamer isn't constantly making financial decisions while playing.
Some micro transactions are tolerable, some of the time, but every single one of these commercializes the product. IMO if they exist, the game should be free-to-play. Where I really get annoyed are games like Lego2K (racing game) where you pay $60 to play, and then it's also full of microtransactions (for cars, courses, cosmetics, you name it).
I think it's a different matter when it's a content-filled DLC add-on to the game. Yes, the line for that is a bit arbitrary, but the classic example would be Starcraft: Brood War (well, technically that was an expansion pack, but same idea). Adding a single additional course to a racing game blurs the line, I generally think content should be bundled so the gamer isn't constantly making financial decisions while playing.
I think all of those are micro-transactions. A nice blanket rule would be no additional payments past the initial purchase. Of course it doesn't stop a developer releasing v2/v3 etc., but it would ensure that the original application is maintained as per the promised features and service standards. Perhaps most importantly, it would reduce the incentive to build dark patterns into applications to encourage micro-transactions.
I don't see governments doing this, but I think we'll see something like this soon in the EU when we can install competing app stores.
I don't see governments doing this, but I think we'll see something like this soon in the EU when we can install competing app stores.
Between terrible incentives created by Apple's cut structure, and Apple's disregard for backwards compatibility, mobile indie devs never stood a chance. Rami from Vlambeer said it well.
“You earn $3 and then you update it for the next 10 years. If you’re making free-to-play games, if you keep earning money with a game, yeah, that’s a great model because you can make more money by updating.”
Ismail pointed to Vlambeer’s “Ridiculous Fishing,” which won a number of awards from gaming publications and Apple.
“‘Ridiculous Fishing’ is never going to make more money,” he said. “Yeah, some new people might buy it, but we made our money with ‘Ridiculous Fishing’ in 2013 and that money is spent, It’s spent on ‘Luftrausers.’ It’s spent on ‘Nuclear Throne.’ If somebody upgrades their phones to the new iPhone. Yeah. You have ‘Ridiculous Fishing’ in your account, Yeah you paid $3 for it. Yeah, it’s broken.”
That’s what caused the last major update Vlambeer did for the game. A major change by Apple in 2017 that switched from 32-bit to 64-bit apps, breaking a slew of content on their phones … including “Ridiculous Fishing.”
“All games broke,” he said, “Every game that wasn’t programmed for it broke. We updated ‘Ridiculous Fishing’ then but it feels like a mistake almost. It feels like, OK it’s 2018 and this game that we made money with that somebody bought in 2013 is now broken outside of our fault. We didn’t change anything. We didn’t break the game. We didn’t introduce a bug, but this continuous ecosystem that Apple has created, that comes with you with every new phone, broke it. “
Ismail said that either Apple has to start designing for backward compatibility support on their end or that people are going to have to get used to the idea of games dying and disappearing.
“Some of the best ios games from 2010 are gone,” he said. “Those developers, they don’t exist anymore. They went out of business. They split up. They started a new thing and they just don’t have the money or time to do it.”
https://variety.com/2019/gaming/features/android-ios-apple-g...
“You earn $3 and then you update it for the next 10 years. If you’re making free-to-play games, if you keep earning money with a game, yeah, that’s a great model because you can make more money by updating.”
Ismail pointed to Vlambeer’s “Ridiculous Fishing,” which won a number of awards from gaming publications and Apple.
“‘Ridiculous Fishing’ is never going to make more money,” he said. “Yeah, some new people might buy it, but we made our money with ‘Ridiculous Fishing’ in 2013 and that money is spent, It’s spent on ‘Luftrausers.’ It’s spent on ‘Nuclear Throne.’ If somebody upgrades their phones to the new iPhone. Yeah. You have ‘Ridiculous Fishing’ in your account, Yeah you paid $3 for it. Yeah, it’s broken.”
That’s what caused the last major update Vlambeer did for the game. A major change by Apple in 2017 that switched from 32-bit to 64-bit apps, breaking a slew of content on their phones … including “Ridiculous Fishing.”
“All games broke,” he said, “Every game that wasn’t programmed for it broke. We updated ‘Ridiculous Fishing’ then but it feels like a mistake almost. It feels like, OK it’s 2018 and this game that we made money with that somebody bought in 2013 is now broken outside of our fault. We didn’t change anything. We didn’t break the game. We didn’t introduce a bug, but this continuous ecosystem that Apple has created, that comes with you with every new phone, broke it. “
Ismail said that either Apple has to start designing for backward compatibility support on their end or that people are going to have to get used to the idea of games dying and disappearing.
“Some of the best ios games from 2010 are gone,” he said. “Those developers, they don’t exist anymore. They went out of business. They split up. They started a new thing and they just don’t have the money or time to do it.”
https://variety.com/2019/gaming/features/android-ios-apple-g...
Well said. Apple has no incentive to improve backwards compatibility because they make more money keeping the transactions flowing. People being apple to use their applications for a long time is bad for business. Unfortunately the market hasn't punished them for this behaviour, so they keep doing it.
Apple's new gaming strategy (as of today) is ports of console games. It's not worth developing good games specifically for mobile but that's not necessary if iDevices can run console ports.
> The promise of gaming on iPhone (and mobile gaming in general) has been taken over and destroyed by freemium games whose only goal is to push microtransactions.
Wasn't that a reaction to users who refused to pay for games and just sideloaded them instead?
I can remember there being five dollar games in the early days of iOS that sold well. I can also remember developers trying games that had ads until you paid to remove them.
Wasn't that a reaction to users who refused to pay for games and just sideloaded them instead?
I can remember there being five dollar games in the early days of iOS that sold well. I can also remember developers trying games that had ads until you paid to remove them.
If piracy was really that big a problem then the entire PC gaming industry wouldn't exist. The issue really was that microtransactions were too easy on mobile, and freemium/casino-like games were simply making too much money, so no developer had the incentive to make anything else.
Steam, Steam sales, and constantly updated games were the fixes to piracy.
If a game gets content updates every other month, re-downloading a pirated game, and possibly losing all progress, meh.
If a game is going to go on sale for $20 (or $10) after awhile, why bother pirating it, just wait.
And Steam is absurdly convenient. Built in voice chat, collectables, and forums, means playing games on Steam is better than playing pirated games.
If a game gets content updates every other month, re-downloading a pirated game, and possibly losing all progress, meh.
If a game is going to go on sale for $20 (or $10) after awhile, why bother pirating it, just wait.
And Steam is absurdly convenient. Built in voice chat, collectables, and forums, means playing games on Steam is better than playing pirated games.
For me, Steam Workshop is the killer feature for a bunch of games. It's hard to beat zero-effort auto-synced modding and zero-effort mod accessibility for tech-illiterate friends.
> Steam, Steam sales, and constantly updated games were the fixes to piracy.
Steam is a DRM platform.
Steam is a DRM platform.
While Steam itself certainly has DRM infrastructure, it's not required and easily bypassed. Valve allows other 3rd-party DRM solutions, but I'd argue that the built-in DRM is one of the less important aspects of steam.
There are plenty of games on Steam with no DRM at all, including Valve's own Half-Life and Portal games.
> If piracy was really that big a problem then the entire PC gaming industry wouldn't exist.
Ever hear of DRM? How about consoles that brick themselves if they detect that they've been modified?
Ever hear of DRM? How about consoles that brick themselves if they detect that they've been modified?
Isn’t iOS already one big DRM? Probably much more effective versus piracy than something like Denuvo as well. And anyways we’ve already come to expect DRM to for any reasonably popular game to be cracked in short order.
In which case, we’d still expect PCs to be in an equivalent, if not worse state.
In which case, we’d still expect PCs to be in an equivalent, if not worse state.
> Wasn't that a reaction to users who refused to pay for games and just sideloaded them instead?
No. That was a minuscule number of people.
It was a reaction to Candy Crush making insane amounts of money using casino mechanics.
No. That was a minuscule number of people.
It was a reaction to Candy Crush making insane amounts of money using casino mechanics.
> No. That was a minuscule number of people.
I can certainly remember developers of early popular games that you paid for up front saying that they tracked how many copies of their game were out there, and only a minuscule percentage of those games had been paid for,
I can certainly remember developers of early popular games that you paid for up front saying that they tracked how many copies of their game were out there, and only a minuscule percentage of those games had been paid for,
It's far easier to pirate on PC yet we have plenty of non freemium games.
And hardest to pirate games on iOS yet theres a glut of freemium games.
On Android you'd still have to explicitly enable side loading
I don't think piracy is the issue here, the issue is on mobile devices you already have quick payments setup for very fast transactions through the app stores. It's easier to assume to assume the person using the phone authorized to make the transaction and enable lots of small transactions.
On PC it's much easier to enter my card details for each new transaction, so i never save the card in Steam etc. Doing the same on the phone is tiring, so i have my card saved.
Apple and Google also make a little money on these transactions and have less incentive to promote non freemium games.
I don't think piracy is the issue here, the issue is on mobile devices you already have quick payments setup for very fast transactions through the app stores. It's easier to assume to assume the person using the phone authorized to make the transaction and enable lots of small transactions.
On PC it's much easier to enter my card details for each new transaction, so i never save the card in Steam etc. Doing the same on the phone is tiring, so i have my card saved.
Apple and Google also make a little money on these transactions and have less incentive to promote non freemium games.
> Wasn't that a reaction to users who refused to pay for games and just sideloaded them instead?
My impression at the time was that the supply of games in the app store was just too great, with hundreds of casual games being released every day. Thus driving down prices.
And Apple was more than happy to commoditise their complement; if 20 developers decided to clone Flappy Bird that was fine with Apple.
My impression at the time was that the supply of games in the app store was just too great, with hundreds of casual games being released every day. Thus driving down prices.
And Apple was more than happy to commoditise their complement; if 20 developers decided to clone Flappy Bird that was fine with Apple.
I'm talking about early standouts, not also rans. I think 2010's Infinity Blade pulled in two million dollars the first week, back when the user base of the devices were comparatively tiny.
People were willing to pay up front on iOS, but Android users just sideloaded, leading to Skinner box free-to-play games being the most reliable way to monetize.
People were willing to pay up front on iOS, but Android users just sideloaded, leading to Skinner box free-to-play games being the most reliable way to monetize.
Seems like an odd scapegoat. Apple themselves was promoting the iPhone with gachapon games earlier today, it's not like lootbox titles magically disappeared with good DRM. If anything, overly-strong DRM enforcement reinforces the power that lootbox-style games have over the user. It gives the developer more control over the runtime than the end-user, encouraging developers to extort the user however they can.
Sideloading makes piracy a service problem instead of a freedom one, and Apple knows their service can't compete on an unstacked deck.
Sideloading makes piracy a service problem instead of a freedom one, and Apple knows their service can't compete on an unstacked deck.
> Seems like an odd scapegoat.
Only if you expect developers and/or studios to work for no pay.
Why do you think we live in a world where you need an internet connection to play a single player game? Developers need a way to be sure you've paid up.
Only if you expect developers and/or studios to work for no pay.
Why do you think we live in a world where you need an internet connection to play a single player game? Developers need a way to be sure you've paid up.
Valve had no problem porting thousands of games to Steam Deck without paying developers a dime. It is a proven fact that a functional DXVK/Wine runtime can support more AAA video games than whatever Apple is paying for.
You keep bringing this around to revenue, but Apple could solve this problem if they didn't benefit from the status quo. A company 10x smaller than them did it, a company with full control over their hardware stack has no excuse to drag their feet and copy Open Source's homework.
You keep bringing this around to revenue, but Apple could solve this problem if they didn't benefit from the status quo. A company 10x smaller than them did it, a company with full control over their hardware stack has no excuse to drag their feet and copy Open Source's homework.
Steam is a DRM platform. Other than that I agree with everything you said.
What you’re missing is that Apple has their own proton that they’re using to help developers port their games like what Valve is doing with proton. Imo most of Apple still hates games if it didn’t bring in so much revenue. Now we have a small team trying to change that at Apple similar to how WSL for Windows came to being. I just hope that the higher ups continue to support and promote Apple’s “proton”
What you’re missing is that Apple has their own proton that they’re using to help developers port their games like what Valve is doing with proton. Imo most of Apple still hates games if it didn’t bring in so much revenue. Now we have a small team trying to change that at Apple similar to how WSL for Windows came to being. I just hope that the higher ups continue to support and promote Apple’s “proton”
>they’re using to help developers port their games like what Valve is doing with proton.
Well Apple and Valve are doing exact opposite things with their tools. Let me explain.
Valve runs your windows game unmodified. There is no 'porting process' and there is no 'port'. As person working with large publisher I am still in shock and disbelief that it is legal and works well in practice but here we are. The funny part is when developer of windows version of a game is asked 'how well do you support Steam Deck?'. And developer has to do windows version changes and produce new windows version that has tweaks for Steam Deck.
Well Apple and Valve are doing exact opposite things with their tools. Let me explain.
Valve runs your windows game unmodified. There is no 'porting process' and there is no 'port'. As person working with large publisher I am still in shock and disbelief that it is legal and works well in practice but here we are. The funny part is when developer of windows version of a game is asked 'how well do you support Steam Deck?'. And developer has to do windows version changes and produce new windows version that has tweaks for Steam Deck.
Apple's Proton is just a fork of DXVK with less upstream support and a more restrictive redistribution license. The best "support" money can buy is killing Game Porting Toolkit and supporting Vulkan in-OS. They're already an underdog in the graphics API world, playing hardball with people who don't care will just end up in a lot of unported games.
Because data collection and upselling, and because advertising. Blaming the tiny minority of people who pirate for the enshittification plaguing basically all software right now is a poor excuse. Show me the numbers.
They built Arcade+ in part to provide alternative to microtransaction games.
And there are a lot of games out there featuring microtransactions, but which also have Apple Arcade versions which don't have microtransactions. It's pretty great to be able to grab a game that looks fun and know that you can just sit down and play it, rather than having to tap through seven different pop-up windows trying to sell you on the battle pass, buying boosts, buying more coins, spending the coins you already have so that you'll have to buy more coins next time you need coins, three different currencies, are you sure you want to restart the level you can just keep playing for only a buck!, and so on.
Not all the conversions are good enough: there are Apple arcade games where you can feel the grind of the free-to-play mechanisms, only now there's no money involved.
Oh, I did not know this! Can you confirm if microtransactions are prohibited amongst Apple Arcade games? This would be a big selling point for me.
They are 100% IAP and ad free.
One of the reasons I got Apple One, the kids can install an endless amount of decent to excellent games from there and I don't need to worry about them wasting money on them or getting predatory ads.
Sneaky Sasquatch is the hidden gem in there. It starts off simple, but it's a really cool and complex world you can explore
One of the reasons I got Apple One, the kids can install an endless amount of decent to excellent games from there and I don't need to worry about them wasting money on them or getting predatory ads.
Sneaky Sasquatch is the hidden gem in there. It starts off simple, but it's a really cool and complex world you can explore
They are. Apple Arcade is about at the point where it has enough great games that it might be worth it. Certainly it’s well worth paying for a few months to try them all out.
They are indeed prohibited as far as I know and experienced, which makes it a great selling (and gifting) point of me as well!
Not who you are replying to, but I can confirm it!
Before smart phones became something for everybody, 99% of "gamers" would game on lottery tickets, casinos, slot machines and such. They are still the majority and they want their slot machines, where they don't have to think or learn to progress. Computer / video game tropes are just an aesthetic to skin a slot machine on your phone.
Some truth to this, many people playing mobile games would never have owned a laptop/PC/console. They play these games on the commute or while watching TV. A "full fledged" game and it's large upfront costs wouldn't interest them.
Thank you, you said it much better than me.
Yeah, exactly. They’ve been playing up how the latest iPad/iPhone/etc. is just as powerful as <some previous generation console> for years now. And I don’t doubt that. But it doesn’t do much good when barely anything approaching AAA gaming shows up on the platform. The potential is wasted on lots of garbage freemium games.
Yeah, I'm so sick of lugging a Switch and a ridiculously huge Steam Deck around when my iPhone 14 is way more powerful than either one, but all that power is wasted since there just aren't enough decent games to play
I guess the emphasis is on enough but I was pleasantly surprised to find some really good games on Apple Arcade: Slay the Spire, Dead Cells, Exit the Gungeon, Limbo, Stardew Valley, The Oregon Trail, Cityscapes. A lot more outside Apple Arcade but I prefer buying them on Steam so not much first hand experience with them.
One of the main benefits of Apple Arcade was to recognize this problem and carve out a space for games that do not suffer from these issues (while making services revenue at the same time). I think it worked pretty well. It doesn't have the AAA though.
I think there will always be a market for freemium games, because it's nice to try things without having to put money down. But I think the freemium market can co-exist with a premium game market. Like, the premium game market still exists and still is going strong, no reason it couldn't live on mobile devices also.
> But I think the freemium market can co-exist with a premium game market
Not so when all the big gaming mobile companies are assigning their top talent to building stuff like Clash of Kings. And why wouldn't they, when they can make so much more money doing so than working on a quality prestige game that no one will pay for.
> the premium game market still exists and still is going strong, no reason it couldn't live on mobile devices also.
It's actually the opposite. Mobile-style microtransactions are slowly taking over the premium PC/console gaming market.
Not so when all the big gaming mobile companies are assigning their top talent to building stuff like Clash of Kings. And why wouldn't they, when they can make so much more money doing so than working on a quality prestige game that no one will pay for.
> the premium game market still exists and still is going strong, no reason it couldn't live on mobile devices also.
It's actually the opposite. Mobile-style microtransactions are slowly taking over the premium PC/console gaming market.
Gamedev here.
If you look at the numbers on mobile, it makes no sense from a business perspective to create non-F2P games on this platform.
You can still make money with so-called "premium" games, that were simply normal games before Apple poisoned the well, but the potential is considerably lower.
If you look at the numbers on mobile, it makes no sense from a business perspective to create non-F2P games on this platform.
You can still make money with so-called "premium" games, that were simply normal games before Apple poisoned the well, but the potential is considerably lower.
I really, really hate the mindset that it "makes no sense" to do something that's not absolutely the most profitable course possible.
If a game developer can make a living making "premium" games, then it makes sense to do so, especially with the very real ethical problems with making free-to-play games laden with microtransactions.
Just because you would only ever choose to do what makes you the most money possible, and damn the rest of the world, that doesn't mean everyone would or should make that choice.
If a game developer can make a living making "premium" games, then it makes sense to do so, especially with the very real ethical problems with making free-to-play games laden with microtransactions.
Just because you would only ever choose to do what makes you the most money possible, and damn the rest of the world, that doesn't mean everyone would or should make that choice.
> If a game developer can make a living making "premium" games, then it makes sense to do so, especially with the very real ethical problems with making free-to-play games laden with microtransactions.
Most developers cannot make a living selling premium games on mobile. There have been plenty of cost breakdowns posted to HN by game developers.
Occasionally a big mega-hit can make a profit, but for the majority of developers, free is now the only viable way.
Most developers cannot make a living selling premium games on mobile. There have been plenty of cost breakdowns posted to HN by game developers.
Occasionally a big mega-hit can make a profit, but for the majority of developers, free is now the only viable way.
To be clear, I hate f2p, I don't play them and I don't make them. But try to raise some funds with that story.
The cold hard fact is that F2P games bring in RIDICULOUS amounts of money.
I moved from doing code for industrial use and public admin as a consultant to mobile gaming.
We have one hit game and the _daily_ marketing (a.k.a. user acquisition) budget for us is an order of magnitude bigger than the biggest projects I did at my old job.
All the "ethical problems" usually are just older (usually) men in IT not understanding that people want to pay money to have fun.
Some people go to bars to relax after a work week and drop $100 gladly. Others use that for going to the movies, some go to have a nice dinner. And some people really like relaxing while playing games and they want to pay for that, because they think it's worth the price.
I moved from doing code for industrial use and public admin as a consultant to mobile gaming.
We have one hit game and the _daily_ marketing (a.k.a. user acquisition) budget for us is an order of magnitude bigger than the biggest projects I did at my old job.
All the "ethical problems" usually are just older (usually) men in IT not understanding that people want to pay money to have fun.
Some people go to bars to relax after a work week and drop $100 gladly. Others use that for going to the movies, some go to have a nice dinner. And some people really like relaxing while playing games and they want to pay for that, because they think it's worth the price.
> All the "ethical problems" usually are just older (usually) men in IT not understanding that people want to pay money to have fun.
Fucking absurd, to be frank. Watch a GDC talk on growing mobile F2P revenue and you will be exposed to a slew of deceptive methods for psychologically manipulating players (who are often kids) into addictive spending habits, often literally through gambling mechanisms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4
Fucking absurd, to be frank. Watch a GDC talk on growing mobile F2P revenue and you will be exposed to a slew of deceptive methods for psychologically manipulating players (who are often kids) into addictive spending habits, often literally through gambling mechanisms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4
There definitely are predatory F2P games as there are shitty cash grabs masquerading as premium games (pay once).
But games like Diablo Immortal, Genshin Impact and Honkai: Star Rail wouldn't keep their player base if they were just a 100% psychologically manipulative cash grabs.
But games like Diablo Immortal, Genshin Impact and Honkai: Star Rail wouldn't keep their player base if they were just a 100% psychologically manipulative cash grabs.
AAA gacha games & Diablo Immortal clearly have quality production values, but they are also by far the most adept & deceitful at using predatory tactics pulled from behavioral psych to wring addicts out of their money.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o17lBUZgjTs
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o17lBUZgjTs
I can't think of (offhand) even one premium game that is native to iOS, everything is or got a port.
Part of it may be the "don't want to pay upfront" but shareware knows how that goes (free first part of the game, then pay $30 for the rest or whatever).
Part of it may be the "don't want to pay upfront" but shareware knows how that goes (free first part of the game, then pay $30 for the rest or whatever).
> Developers simply do not have the incentive to build any other kinds of games when the current crop of addictive shovelware is so damn profitable.
Personally, I don’t have the incentive because 1) paid mobile gaming isn’t a big market (see: top paid apps being the exact same years-old, curated Apple apps not having many reviews/downloads), 2) there aren’t many options to develop games targeting iOS which also target Android and Windows/Linux (at least if you want to use Swift), and 3) Apple could remove my game at any notice and I don’t get 30% of the revenue.
If Apple introduces a way to easily port desktop games to iOS, or even develop entirely new games which can run on Linux and mac and iPhone, I think we’d see a lot more iOS games. Maybe the new GPU isn’t only faster but also supports Vulkan/wgpu better?
Personally, I don’t have the incentive because 1) paid mobile gaming isn’t a big market (see: top paid apps being the exact same years-old, curated Apple apps not having many reviews/downloads), 2) there aren’t many options to develop games targeting iOS which also target Android and Windows/Linux (at least if you want to use Swift), and 3) Apple could remove my game at any notice and I don’t get 30% of the revenue.
If Apple introduces a way to easily port desktop games to iOS, or even develop entirely new games which can run on Linux and mac and iPhone, I think we’d see a lot more iOS games. Maybe the new GPU isn’t only faster but also supports Vulkan/wgpu better?
Did the Game Porting Toolkit[1] and the Unity integrations not meet that last need? If not, where have they fallen short?
Legitimately asking. I'm not up to speed on the subject.
1. https://developer.apple.com/games/planning/#bring-games-to-a...
Legitimately asking. I'm not up to speed on the subject.
1. https://developer.apple.com/games/planning/#bring-games-to-a...
At least on a positive note: an iPhone + Dev account + some tiny controller addon can equal a great pocket emulation machine on the go. If someone can design a nice controller add on, we can ditch the Chinese pocket gameboy/switch/other extra devices you dont need.
It so absurd: We need to carry the device anyway since its a phone, it has a great GPU and there are thousands of existing great games that have been created that the device can easily run. The only problem has always been the stupidity of the code not being available to run on this device. :/
It so absurd: We need to carry the device anyway since its a phone, it has a great GPU and there are thousands of existing great games that have been created that the device can easily run. The only problem has always been the stupidity of the code not being available to run on this device. :/
You might want to have a look at the razer kishi. Alternatively if you want a standalone controller, you might want to look at the following 8bitdo products:
- sn30 pro
- lite 2
- zero
- micro
The latter two are comically miniscule. In my opinion the sn30 pro is the sweet spot between portability and actually being able to play comfortably.
- sn30 pro
- lite 2
- zero
- micro
The latter two are comically miniscule. In my opinion the sn30 pro is the sweet spot between portability and actually being able to play comfortably.
These suggestions look really good. Thank You!
Never had much trouble finding quality phone games which don’t use this model. Some of the most popular mobile games in the world like PUBG are not like this.
I mean…I don’t entirely agree, they’ve created an entire service to avoid the problems you are describing with Apple Arcade.
Its not only the low quality games, mobile controls also suck for gaming.
Most smartphones are already faster than the Switch. The quality of games on a platform is not directly related to its technical capabilities or SDK, but to the business model and platform incentives.
Apple has fueled a race-to-the-bottom followed by an almost forced transition to f2p, and they benefited immensely in the process (30%), but I think that most gamers and indie devs are not satisfied.
Apple has fueled a race-to-the-bottom followed by an almost forced transition to f2p, and they benefited immensely in the process (30%), but I think that most gamers and indie devs are not satisfied.
It seems so immensely cynical. The latest-and-best Apple Event PR is in a car crash with the reality - from a gaming POV, the iPhone is a platform for user addiction.
I've been watching people around me and the amount of time everyone seems to spend tapping away at a phone, head down, is like something out of a dystopian movie.
The game addiction market must be worth billions to Apple. For all the environmental and other ad copy, there doesn't seem to be any concern about the mental and psychological effects of creating an ecosystem that knowingly relies on exploitative behaviour modification.
I also think the colour scheme is quite cynical. Pastel shades on the base model for the - let's say - less technically-oriented users. Strong blacks, whites, and metallics for the hard-core performance nerds who want that Pro tag.
There's something regressive about it all.
I've been watching people around me and the amount of time everyone seems to spend tapping away at a phone, head down, is like something out of a dystopian movie.
The game addiction market must be worth billions to Apple. For all the environmental and other ad copy, there doesn't seem to be any concern about the mental and psychological effects of creating an ecosystem that knowingly relies on exploitative behaviour modification.
I also think the colour scheme is quite cynical. Pastel shades on the base model for the - let's say - less technically-oriented users. Strong blacks, whites, and metallics for the hard-core performance nerds who want that Pro tag.
There's something regressive about it all.
People talk about Gen-Z having the most depressed/suicide driven people of any generation and they largely came of age after the smartphone took over.
At the same time, the advent of a professional easy to access camera in everyones pocket transformed the world: Arab spring, George Floyd, everything we are witnessing in Ukraine. Made possible thanks to the ubiquity of the same device that causes a lot of harm.
>I also think the colour scheme is quite cynical. Pastel shades on the base model for the - let's say - less technically-oriented users. Strong blacks, whites, and metallics for the hard-core performance nerds who want that Pro tag.
I think they do pastels every other year no? And a lot of people buy Pros: all the "influencers" treat it as a tool to earn income so of course they prefer the best device of them all, I dont think they are actually looking at the specs though.
I though the hard core nerds buy things like the Pixel phones or the ASUS ROG type phones?
At the same time, the advent of a professional easy to access camera in everyones pocket transformed the world: Arab spring, George Floyd, everything we are witnessing in Ukraine. Made possible thanks to the ubiquity of the same device that causes a lot of harm.
>I also think the colour scheme is quite cynical. Pastel shades on the base model for the - let's say - less technically-oriented users. Strong blacks, whites, and metallics for the hard-core performance nerds who want that Pro tag.
I think they do pastels every other year no? And a lot of people buy Pros: all the "influencers" treat it as a tool to earn income so of course they prefer the best device of them all, I dont think they are actually looking at the specs though.
I though the hard core nerds buy things like the Pixel phones or the ASUS ROG type phones?
I mean, there is a point where user agency should definitely be taken into account. For what it’s worth, apple does have good tools in this area, like measuring screen time, limiting it, parental controls. But you can’t stop people from drinking bleach either..
I remember being completely impressed by my Note 3 (10 years ago almost exactly) playing games like Dead Trigger 2 and NFS: Underground. From then on, GPU performance / graphics on these tiny displays seemed good enough for me with only minor subjective improvements.
I'll second another comment, that another big challenge is the simple lack of ergonomics on any phone.
I'll second another comment, that another big challenge is the simple lack of ergonomics on any phone.
> The quality of games on a platform is not directly related to its technical capabilities or SDK, but to the business model and platform incentives.
And also (mostly) the ergonomics.
Comparing a phone whose main purpose is definitely not gaming (at least the iPhone, I know there are some gaming-first phones) to a handheld console will always make the former look pathetic for this use-case.
And also (mostly) the ergonomics.
Comparing a phone whose main purpose is definitely not gaming (at least the iPhone, I know there are some gaming-first phones) to a handheld console will always make the former look pathetic for this use-case.
Yes.
The problem with touchscreen-only is that it doesn’t feel very good, and also any sort of control scheme will mean at least temporarily reducing usable area for UX since you can’t see through your hands.
The problem with touchscreen-only is that it doesn’t feel very good, and also any sort of control scheme will mean at least temporarily reducing usable area for UX since you can’t see through your hands.
I question if Apple really cares about or is serious about gaming. My impression is they use it as an excuse to showcase hardware improvements since games are happy to soak up pretty much any hardware that's thrown at it.
That seems to be where their concern for gaming stops. There is Apple Arcade, but it feels like the least amount they could do for the size of their company.
I do think they care about it over the longer-term, particularly in light Vision Pro and their overall AR strategy.
That seems to be where their concern for gaming stops. There is Apple Arcade, but it feels like the least amount they could do for the size of their company.
I do think they care about it over the longer-term, particularly in light Vision Pro and their overall AR strategy.
Apple is making 30%, just like all the console makers and Steam, on every single game transaction on iPhone.
What you're forgetting, and pushing aside, is that the mobile gaming market is as big as the traditional gaming market. All the phone games make as much money as all the consoles and PC gaming together. Apple, with its command of all the valuable phone customers, is pulling an estimated 14 billion dollars in 2021 in mobile gaming. So Apple is very dumb if they don't care about 14 billion in annual services revenue.
What you're thinking is that traditional gaming is big-boy gaming and where the big bucks are. The growth market is mobile gaming, with the other segments being stagnant outside of big hits. The reality is that Apple is a bigger gaming company, by revenue, than Microsoft or Sony, is controlling the growth sector, and is thinking accordingly. They have financed all on their own a new GPU generation for their phone and justified it as a need for gaming and gaming alone. Those other companies need partners, like AMD or Nvidia, to make them GPUs.
https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights...
What you're forgetting, and pushing aside, is that the mobile gaming market is as big as the traditional gaming market. All the phone games make as much money as all the consoles and PC gaming together. Apple, with its command of all the valuable phone customers, is pulling an estimated 14 billion dollars in 2021 in mobile gaming. So Apple is very dumb if they don't care about 14 billion in annual services revenue.
What you're thinking is that traditional gaming is big-boy gaming and where the big bucks are. The growth market is mobile gaming, with the other segments being stagnant outside of big hits. The reality is that Apple is a bigger gaming company, by revenue, than Microsoft or Sony, is controlling the growth sector, and is thinking accordingly. They have financed all on their own a new GPU generation for their phone and justified it as a need for gaming and gaming alone. Those other companies need partners, like AMD or Nvidia, to make them GPUs.
https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights...
> The reality is that Apple is a bigger gaming company, by revenue, than Microsoft or Sony
The "reality" is that Apple still has to pay other studios to port games to their systems. We spent 8 tragic years watching them wheel out Tomb Raider demos each keynote as if it was a shiny new release. Larian Studios came, Blizzard Studios went, but nobody changed the tide of gaming on iPhone or Mac. The fact that Boom Beach is more profitable than dear esther is not exactly an allegorical victory for Apple.
So... here we are. A world where a $300, 20nm Nintendo Switch is a better gaming console than a shiny new $800 3nm iPhone. Apple's service revenue isn't driven by good games, so they have no incentive to build a better system. The entire iOS runtime is an antitrust meltdown waiting to happen.
The "reality" is that Apple still has to pay other studios to port games to their systems. We spent 8 tragic years watching them wheel out Tomb Raider demos each keynote as if it was a shiny new release. Larian Studios came, Blizzard Studios went, but nobody changed the tide of gaming on iPhone or Mac. The fact that Boom Beach is more profitable than dear esther is not exactly an allegorical victory for Apple.
So... here we are. A world where a $300, 20nm Nintendo Switch is a better gaming console than a shiny new $800 3nm iPhone. Apple's service revenue isn't driven by good games, so they have no incentive to build a better system. The entire iOS runtime is an antitrust meltdown waiting to happen.
So Apple's making more profit than Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony in gaming and somehow they're doing it wrong? You're right that the Mac is a horrible gaming platform. But we're talking profits here. Apple's bread is buttered on the iPhone side, and that's where Apple is looking. They're trying to get the Mac to gain steam, but it's clearly very difficult and their heart's not in it.
In the end it's a business, whoever makes the most money is the market leader. Until the government steps in. You are right that antitrust action is the most credible threat to Apple's positon in gaming. The fact the leadership at Apple has not moved an inch to satisfy governments will be Tim Cook's black mark on his tenure.
In the end it's a business, whoever makes the most money is the market leader. Until the government steps in. You are right that antitrust action is the most credible threat to Apple's positon in gaming. The fact the leadership at Apple has not moved an inch to satisfy governments will be Tim Cook's black mark on his tenure.
But how much of "mobile gaming revenue" is shitty "buy coins to skip this puzzle" in whatever polished shitpuzzle game is the current hotness?
You can only pay-to-play Bejeweled so many times, after all.
You can only pay-to-play Bejeweled so many times, after all.
I hate that it's the reality just as much as you. Doesn't mean my cold hard look at the industry isn't true.
As much as I want this cesspool to die, unfortunately, parent is talking about revenue. And there I can imagine mobile market being even bigger than traditional gaming. All those shitty casinos and gacha games should rot in hell.
If only mobile gaming was like that still...
Based on the last two events, they increasingly invest more and more money into games. And to be honest, it absolutely makes sense — apple’s biggest competitor in many areas is themselves: people use their iphones for many many years. So it does makes sense to invest into services as well.
That currently seems to be the case, but it's a puzzling strategy.
It's a digital company that is trying to increase revenue with services instead of just hardware.
How can you ignore gaming whilst offering your own streaming service? The gaming market is many multiples in size of all of Hollywood.
It's a digital company that is trying to increase revenue with services instead of just hardware.
How can you ignore gaming whilst offering your own streaming service? The gaming market is many multiples in size of all of Hollywood.
Gaming has a high cost of entry. Xbox posted its first profit in 2007, six years after the Xbox launch.
I would imagine that they don’t think they have much to bring to the table that would leaps and bounds get them over the current competition; their entry point would probably look like a premium Steam Deck or maybe the Vision Pro for AR gaming, but is that an Apple-sized market to sink their teeth into? Particularly when none of their other devices are traditional-gaming oriented.
I would imagine that they don’t think they have much to bring to the table that would leaps and bounds get them over the current competition; their entry point would probably look like a premium Steam Deck or maybe the Vision Pro for AR gaming, but is that an Apple-sized market to sink their teeth into? Particularly when none of their other devices are traditional-gaming oriented.
I assume they don't want to compete with their customers on gaming, not just yet.
AAA-like titles were previously tried at the beginning of the App Store, mostly ports of older titles. Most Indie Games would also run fine on most Smartphones, but never succeeded. Stuff that sold great on the Switch. I think the lack of "official" nice, high-quality, hasslefree Gamepad, continuing cooling-issues and especially the expectation of consumers for low prices on Apps results in the Market for "real" games on Phones remaining very small.
Apple tried to counteract it with Apple Arcade, but that hasn't worked out.
Apple tried to counteract it with Apple Arcade, but that hasn't worked out.
There are a few major missteps Apple made over the years that make me hesitant to buy any games on iPhone or iPad.
With my Steam catalog I can download something I bought in 2004 and still be confident I can play it. I spent $20 on Monster Hunter for iPhone and one day iOS updated and it just didn’t work anymore.
My Switch games will assumably work until the console dies.
Another reason I completely stopped buying games on iOS was when The Binding of Isaac was suddenly delisted from the App Store. I never got a refund or anything, and because of this new versions of Binding of Isaac aren’t compatible with Macs either. I have hundreds of hours played in that game and it’s ridiculous that Apple censored it as “depicting child abuse”.
With my Steam catalog I can download something I bought in 2004 and still be confident I can play it. I spent $20 on Monster Hunter for iPhone and one day iOS updated and it just didn’t work anymore.
My Switch games will assumably work until the console dies.
Another reason I completely stopped buying games on iOS was when The Binding of Isaac was suddenly delisted from the App Store. I never got a refund or anything, and because of this new versions of Binding of Isaac aren’t compatible with Macs either. I have hundreds of hours played in that game and it’s ridiculous that Apple censored it as “depicting child abuse”.
I don’t know if this is still the case, but for a long time, your game would get rejected from the App Store if it required an external controller to play. And yet being able to design games around that baseline is critical for triple-A.
I’m super curious to see what they’ve done with this current–gen, mainline Assassin‘s Creed game coming to iPhone: there is no way the core gameplay of that franchise could translate to touch controls, so either Apple dropped the requirement, some poor team had the doomed project of building an abysmal fallback touch control scheme, or they implemented some kind of semi-automated scheme for touch that makes traversal and combat less interactive.
I’m super curious to see what they’ve done with this current–gen, mainline Assassin‘s Creed game coming to iPhone: there is no way the core gameplay of that franchise could translate to touch controls, so either Apple dropped the requirement, some poor team had the doomed project of building an abysmal fallback touch control scheme, or they implemented some kind of semi-automated scheme for touch that makes traversal and combat less interactive.
>>there is no way the core gameplay of that franchise could translate to touch controls
I mean.....millions of people play proper console games on their phones now using various streaming services and touch controls.....turns out playing games using shitty touch controls is preferable to not playing them at all I guess. So yeah, I imagine it's just a simple touch overlay, like the one used for XCloud.
I mean.....millions of people play proper console games on their phones now using various streaming services and touch controls.....turns out playing games using shitty touch controls is preferable to not playing them at all I guess. So yeah, I imagine it's just a simple touch overlay, like the one used for XCloud.
> I don’t know if this is still the case, but for a long time, your game would get rejected from the App Store if it required an external controller to play.
To my knowledge you've always been allowed to provide optional game controller support, as long as you supported a touch interface too.
To my knowledge you've always been allowed to provide optional game controller support, as long as you supported a touch interface too.
>>if it required
Just gonna throw this out there... for me, one of the main reasons I don't play games on my phone, is because it will absolutely tank the battery life.
A dedicated device has the benefit of having a sole purpose: gaming. If I kill the battery, I just can't play anymore games. I can still take calls, browse the web, and text my partner.
A dedicated device has the benefit of having a sole purpose: gaming. If I kill the battery, I just can't play anymore games. I can still take calls, browse the web, and text my partner.
A power bank is easy cheap and fairly light alternative. Instead of carrying additional gaming device, I can carry a power bank instead...which is kinda useful even if I drain battery for whatever reason. If it completely dies, you'd be offline for like what 5 minutes until phone gets enough charge to boot again?
Yep, same here. I already have enough issues keeping my phone charged enough, playing games on it just makes it worse.
Every once in a while I do, but it's usually a really basic game that uses hardly any resources to run, like a simple board game app.
Every once in a while I do, but it's usually a really basic game that uses hardly any resources to run, like a simple board game app.
This, more than anything, killed Minecraft Earth if I recall correctly.
Even people who wanted to play during Covid couldn't because it would just eat the battery to death.
Even people who wanted to play during Covid couldn't because it would just eat the battery to death.
>Apple tried to counteract it with Apple Arcade, but that hasn't worked out.
I'm not really a gamer but I get Arcade as part of a bundle and it doesn't really wow me. I sometimes look at "Best of..." lists and try a few out on a plane flight and I'm mostly meh.
I'm not really a gamer but I get Arcade as part of a bundle and it doesn't really wow me. I sometimes look at "Best of..." lists and try a few out on a plane flight and I'm mostly meh.
I love Apple Arcade because I can trust whatever I get from it for my kids is not a gambling app in disguise.
There is that--especially for kids. It may not be very good but at least it's not evil.
The bar is far more than high enough for kids. I recall being more than willing to happily spend hours playing that handheld water ring toss game that’s somehow in every dentist office.
It's hard to charge for full priced AAA-games too. There's still plenty of good ports on mobile. Games like Civ VI and Minecraft, but my friends who have a console or PC would rather buy it on mobile. Even if it was a reduced price, which Civ VI is.
And they will likely have to enable side-loading in the EU next year, which will allow us to play almost all retro games through emulation.
Maybe Apple will embrace this then.
Maybe even making deals to compete with emulators + pirated ROMs.
Just fantasizing a bit here... thinking of Apple-approved N64, GameCube, GBA, PSP, even PS4 emulators with licensed games for a somewhat medium to high price tag - why not?
Maybe even making deals to compete with emulators + pirated ROMs.
Just fantasizing a bit here... thinking of Apple-approved N64, GameCube, GBA, PSP, even PS4 emulators with licensed games for a somewhat medium to high price tag - why not?
Actually, this is up to Nintendo and Sony, not Apple...
And, speaking from experience, Nintendo definitely wouldn't be on board. As far as I'm aware, they have never authorized any kind of third-party emulation of their games; even their first-party emulators like the NES Mini or Virtual Console have always been limited-time offerings with relatively small selections of games.
Getting the game ROMs is definitely illegal. But they can’t have any say in the actual emulation and emulation software.
Getting ROMs is legal in a lot of circumstances, either by backuping the game yourself or if you own the game but download a ROM (like https://law.stackexchange.com/a/41876)
Good luck having apple to approve a game where to do anything you have to google things, the game cannot tell you how to google and any public popular resources telling how to do it getting struck with DMCA.
They can approve the emulators though, which they don’t currently.
Could it be because emulators need JIT and JIT is a window to jailbreak?
Sure! As I said I was fantasizing, maybe I should have qualified this a bit more :)
To me this is a signal of reusing the GPU innovations that were required for the Vision Pro in currently available products and then finding a martket for it (gaming)
Eh, the GPU changes with ray tracing were supposed to land last year as part of A16 but heat issues required them to pull it.
The bright side is that if you are on a yearly release cadence then you don’t let one thing slip the whole SOC (assuming, as Apple does, that you have a risk on and risk off design going simultaneously).
Your are right on that the Vision Pro will have a M3 not M2.
The bright side is that if you are on a yearly release cadence then you don’t let one thing slip the whole SOC (assuming, as Apple does, that you have a risk on and risk off design going simultaneously).
Your are right on that the Vision Pro will have a M3 not M2.
>Eh, the GPU changes with ray tracing were supposed to land last year as part of A16 but heat issues required them to pull it.
Where did you read about this? Is there some publication that publishes insights into things like this?
Where did you read about this? Is there some publication that publishes insights into things like this?
lofaszvanitt(1)
Vision Pro is based on the A15 SoC.
No it isn't. It is M2 based
…which is, you know, A15-based.
If you mean to say they share the same architecture, you're correct. I misunderstood your phrasing
Pointing out the obvious, but the iPhone only has the touch input, and no physical controls, so it's not going to work as a serious gaming device.
You can use modern gamepads with it, like the PS5 DualSense.
Yeah, bluetooth controller of choice and a kickstand case on the biggest iPhone gets you very close to a Switch or Deck conceptually.
Once the A17 makes its way to the iPad mini, that'll be even closer.
Once the A17 makes its way to the iPad mini, that'll be even closer.
If, and only if the developers include controller support. Which they largely don't, even when controllers are supported on every other platform.
Two egregious examples: The Final Fantasy Pixel Remastered series, and Monster Hunter Stories. The first has controller support on both the PC and consoles, but not on phones (which came out first). The second launched on a console (the 3DS), and has no controller support on the phone.
That caveat alone makes it so frustrating to play games on the phone IME.
Two egregious examples: The Final Fantasy Pixel Remastered series, and Monster Hunter Stories. The first has controller support on both the PC and consoles, but not on phones (which came out first). The second launched on a console (the 3DS), and has no controller support on the phone.
That caveat alone makes it so frustrating to play games on the phone IME.
It’s a shame because the UX of controller configuration on iOS/macOS/tvOS is the best I’ve seen outside of consoles. Even Windows, the king of gaming, doesn’t do as well with configuration of Microsoft’s own Xbox controllers (let alone those of competing companies). Instead on Windows Steam is required for any level of sanity with controllers.
Even if they do include, it's often weird. I wanted to try play genshin with controller - you have to complete certain parts of the game to unlock settings button. Why?
It seems like it would be trivial to build a "controller case" that goes around the phone. It could plug into the USB-C port, of course, and have joysticks on both sides, or whatever was required.
Serious or not, but for example Diablo Immortal is mobile only and it reportedly brings in $1M _daily_.
So some people are seriously playing it with no physical controls. =)
For "serious" mobile gamers there are devices like the Razer Kishi: https://www.razer.com/mobile-controllers/razer-kishi-v2
On this site people tend to forget that there actually are people under 30 whose only computing device is a phone. They use it for everything.
So some people are seriously playing it with no physical controls. =)
For "serious" mobile gamers there are devices like the Razer Kishi: https://www.razer.com/mobile-controllers/razer-kishi-v2
On this site people tend to forget that there actually are people under 30 whose only computing device is a phone. They use it for everything.
This applies to the Switch too. It’s touch screen but has external controls (they detach and you can use the kickstand). iOS supports gaming controllers so you could use it in the same way as the Switch (albeit it doesn’t have a built in kickstand).
But if you're bringing your switch you're not just bringing the screen. If you are bringing your phone somewhere you are bringing just the phone. It's harder to sell and justify.
> It’s touch screen but has external controls
The touch screen is one of the least-used parts of the Switch. Which is a little disappointing, since it was so heavily and well used on the DS/3DS lines. But so many of the ways Nintendo intends you to use the system, the touchscreen isn't accessible. So games aren't built around it in the same way that it was for their previous handhelds.
The touch screen is one of the least-used parts of the Switch. Which is a little disappointing, since it was so heavily and well used on the DS/3DS lines. But so many of the ways Nintendo intends you to use the system, the touchscreen isn't accessible. So games aren't built around it in the same way that it was for their previous handhelds.
It does however pair very nicely with popular console controllers
Well yeah but that's a trivial problem to solve by just getting a case/attachment with gaming controls on it, like the Razer Kishi.
With this announcement it wouldn't surprise me if Apple is already working on a first-party case/attachment specifically for gaming.
And it wouldn't be their first attempt at such hardware:
https://lowendmac.com/2006/apples-pippin-and-bandais-world-m...
And it wouldn't be their first attempt at such hardware:
https://lowendmac.com/2006/apples-pippin-and-bandais-world-m...
It works really well with a PS5 controller, and they make controllers that snap on the sides too.
People have been saying that Mac gaming is around the corner for years now. GPU upgrades are the least exiting part of new iPhones. I have zero faith that they move the gaming needle, especially on iPhones.
The most exciting thing for Mac gaming is probably the Game porting toolkit.
The most exciting thing for Mac gaming is probably the Game porting toolkit.
I'm not sure they have. When Macs came with Intel processors, everyone who wanted to play games on their Mac just booted into Windows for gaming, so there wasn't much pressure to make them work on the MacOS side. Because Bootcamp no longer works, Apple is under increased pressure to improve game performance.
> I have zero faith that they move the gaming needle
My faith is placed in the fact that they have been pouring resources that amount close to billions on making gaming a thing on iPhones and Macs.
As a long time Mac and iPhone gamer, I have seen slow and steady incremental progress. I'm personally excited for the new GPU.
Besides, I think they get the benefit of the doubt at this point. This is Apple, not Google, after all.
My faith is placed in the fact that they have been pouring resources that amount close to billions on making gaming a thing on iPhones and Macs.
As a long time Mac and iPhone gamer, I have seen slow and steady incremental progress. I'm personally excited for the new GPU.
Besides, I think they get the benefit of the doubt at this point. This is Apple, not Google, after all.
Also interesting was the large number of Neutral engine cores.
These two together seem to be very much about enhancing AI and Siri to be mostly on-device (something which they already started on).
A frequent complaint I read on HN is "why aren't there LLM based assistants as yet from any vendor" - but the answer to this is straightforward, it's not realistic to deploy cloud-based LLM at Siri-size user bases. Most queries also don't need LLM-style responses. (Also the rapid development of the field means that processing requirements are rapidly decreasing.)
In a prior keynote Apple noted that Siri was the most used assistant in the world. I don't have 3rd party data to support that, but it's a big enough claim that we could take their word on it just for conjecture purposes about the processing power needed to deploy LLM-based Siri.
So if we're going to see LLM-based usability enhancements to Siri, both in the types of data it's allowed to work with and enabling natural, context-driven interactions. That will have to be fully on device, and ultimately that will be a better experience for users as internet connectivity is an unreasonable barrier for such interactions (especially as it can stutter natural-language conversations).
---
On the gaming topic: Look at the newly released Hello Kitty Island Adventure on Apple Arcade. It is an exclusive and playable across iPad/iPhone/Mac/AppleTV. The quality of this game is unusual, it delivers an experience that equals/exceeds Nintendo's wildly popular Animal Crossing. This signals that Apple are refocusing on gaming in a new way: bringing popular game paradigms to Arcade in a compelling, exclusive way, and this perhaps forms an extension of Arcade bringing ad-free versions of the App Store's most popular titles. So while I think we're far off Apple's hardware being a destination for gaming enthusiasts, we're now definitely past the point of Apple pushing people with an itch for gaming onto other platforms.
These two together seem to be very much about enhancing AI and Siri to be mostly on-device (something which they already started on).
A frequent complaint I read on HN is "why aren't there LLM based assistants as yet from any vendor" - but the answer to this is straightforward, it's not realistic to deploy cloud-based LLM at Siri-size user bases. Most queries also don't need LLM-style responses. (Also the rapid development of the field means that processing requirements are rapidly decreasing.)
In a prior keynote Apple noted that Siri was the most used assistant in the world. I don't have 3rd party data to support that, but it's a big enough claim that we could take their word on it just for conjecture purposes about the processing power needed to deploy LLM-based Siri.
So if we're going to see LLM-based usability enhancements to Siri, both in the types of data it's allowed to work with and enabling natural, context-driven interactions. That will have to be fully on device, and ultimately that will be a better experience for users as internet connectivity is an unreasonable barrier for such interactions (especially as it can stutter natural-language conversations).
---
On the gaming topic: Look at the newly released Hello Kitty Island Adventure on Apple Arcade. It is an exclusive and playable across iPad/iPhone/Mac/AppleTV. The quality of this game is unusual, it delivers an experience that equals/exceeds Nintendo's wildly popular Animal Crossing. This signals that Apple are refocusing on gaming in a new way: bringing popular game paradigms to Arcade in a compelling, exclusive way, and this perhaps forms an extension of Arcade bringing ad-free versions of the App Store's most popular titles. So while I think we're far off Apple's hardware being a destination for gaming enthusiasts, we're now definitely past the point of Apple pushing people with an itch for gaming onto other platforms.
Unfortunately, PC games, and most "AAA" titles are so shit lately, i just don't bother anymore. I just play the same game even while beefing up my PC. They even destroy amazing games like the old CoD Warzone. All trash now.
You are saying this as we are having one of the best years in gaming in a long time, and it includes both indies and AAA.
Baldur's Gate 3, Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom, some amazing remakes (Metroid Prime: Remastered, Resident Evil 4, Dead Space), Street Fighter 6 (which was loved by the community upon release unlike SF5, which had to be iterated on for a bit of time before becoming decent), Hi-Fi Rush, Bomb Rush Cyberfunk, Pikmin 4, Armored Core 6, Blasphemous 2, Star Wars: Jedi Survivor. I even ommitted quite a few that are a bit controversial or not "amazing", like Starfield or Hogwarts Legacy.
And that's only off the top of my head, with a good chunk of the year left to go with hitters like Alan Wake 2, Cyberpunk rework+expansion, Spiderman 2, MGS Collection vol1, and Cities Skylines 2 on the horizon.
There is no shame in losing interest in gaming, but claiming that "most AAA titles are so shit lately", all while I don't even remember the last time we had a year so chock full of amazing games, is a bit questionable.
Baldur's Gate 3, Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom, some amazing remakes (Metroid Prime: Remastered, Resident Evil 4, Dead Space), Street Fighter 6 (which was loved by the community upon release unlike SF5, which had to be iterated on for a bit of time before becoming decent), Hi-Fi Rush, Bomb Rush Cyberfunk, Pikmin 4, Armored Core 6, Blasphemous 2, Star Wars: Jedi Survivor. I even ommitted quite a few that are a bit controversial or not "amazing", like Starfield or Hogwarts Legacy.
And that's only off the top of my head, with a good chunk of the year left to go with hitters like Alan Wake 2, Cyberpunk rework+expansion, Spiderman 2, MGS Collection vol1, and Cities Skylines 2 on the horizon.
There is no shame in losing interest in gaming, but claiming that "most AAA titles are so shit lately", all while I don't even remember the last time we had a year so chock full of amazing games, is a bit questionable.
Have you played all these games? Which ones would you recommend if I were to only buy 1 or 2?
> Have you played all these games?
Not all, but tried out most of them, beat some of them, others are still in progress, and some were just not my cup of tea (even though it was obvious they were great games).
> Which ones would you recommend if I were to only buy 1 or 2?
It depends on what type of games you are into, so it is kind of difficult to just give a general rec without knowing what you are into. I will try to explain my points for some of them, hopefully it helps.
* Resident Evil 4 Remake[completed], Dead Space Remake[completed] - action-horror games. Great remakes, especially RE4 (modernized the game in all the best ways possible, while still preserving the charm of the original). If you enjoyed the originals or wanted to experience them (but never got to it back when they came out), I heavily recommend. Or if you are into atmospheric third person action games. I am not a fan of horror games at all, but enjoyed those two greatly (given that it was more action that horror).
* Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom [played for a while, not completed] - an evolution of and a step up from the previous entry, Breath of the Wild. Very creative and free-form gameplay, open-world, heavily encouraging the player to experiment with building functional contraptions and exploration. Warning: Switch is greatly limiting the experience here, as the scale and physics of the game are clearly pushing the console to its max. 30fps and some graphical jankiness, but the art style and direction are great.
* Street Fighter 6 [still play online matches on a regular basis]- if you are into fighting games, this is a must-have, nothing more to say. They made this entry extremely approachable to newcomers, with amazing training modes and tutorials, as well as the "modern control scheme" option that makes things a bit easier for totally new people. If you aren't into fighting games as a genre though, I don't recommend.
* Hi-Fi Rush [in progress, about 25% way through] - reminds me of jet set radio aesthetically, really fun action-rpg game with a funky soundtrack, universe, and a fun gameplay. Kind of cheesy at times, but that's intentional.
* Bomb Rush Cyberfunk [almost finished it, about 85% done] - one of my personal favorite hidden gems this year. A spiritual successor to Jet Set Radio, some of the tracks were composed by the original composer of JSR. Platforming/light action game. I recommend watching a couple of videos and seeing if the vibe appeals to you. I have not played the original Jet Set Radio (but was aware of it), and I loved this game. If you enjoyed JSR in any capacity or if you like the vibe of the game (based on trailers and such), I recommend. Very off-beat and fun. If you want something unlike anything else out there, this is pretty much it. The only game that is even similar to it is the original Jet Set Radio.
* Blasphemous 2 [on the last boss at the moment] - indie metroidvania with some great atmosphere and a tight gameplay loop. If you are into 2d metroidvanias at all or liked the first game, this is a no-brainer. It is somewhat difficult and punishing, but not anywhere close to Dark Souls levels, very doable.
* Star Wars: Jedi Survivor [about halfway finished] - typical big budget western AAA game in Star Wars universe. Feels like a souls-like lite, making it more accessible. If you like star wars, or enjoyed the first game, or looking for something like Dark Souls but way more approachable, you will like this.
* Armored Core 6 [finished the main story, on new game+ right now] - mecha action game, made by Dark Souls devs. Combat is decent, but the star of the show is the garage/assembly mechanic. If you like tinkering with builds and managing all of that, or if you just like giant robots, this one is for you. Builds are easy to swap, no grind mechanics like in tons of RPGs, and the game has so much room to experiment with the builds, it is insane.
* Starfield [started, haven't played much], Hogwarts Legacy [90% done with the main story] - generally great games that would appeal to most people. Starfield is a typical massive open-world Bethesda RPG ala Skyrim. Hogwarts Legacy is a blockbuster open-world Harry Potter game. The aesthetics and vibes of Hogwarts Legacy are great, even for someone like me who hasn't finished all the books and isn't super into HP universe. Without knowing someone's general preferences for games, these two are the ones I would recommend to try out for most people (even though they aren't my two personal favorites out of this list).
* Baldur's Gate 3 [just started recently] - D&D system RPG game done incredibly well. A bit of a learning curve if you aren't familiar with D&D (I am not), and it might get a bit intense in terms of understanding the mechanics. However, this is a true love letter to D&D, and it is done incredibly well. If you have even some passing interest in D&D, or if you like complex RPG systems, this would be my #1 rec. I am personally a bit overwhelmed by it, but it is still an incredible game.
* Pikmin 4, Metroid Prime: Remastered - haven't played.
TLDR: General top recs without knowing anything about your preferences - RE4, Dead Space, Starfield, Hogwarts Legacy. For a more comprehensive explanation, see the details above. My personal biased favorites - RE4, Bomb Rush Cyberfunk, Blasphemous 2, and Street Fighter 6 (I am more of a Tekken player, but SF6 is just so good, it should have no issues sustaining me until Tekken 8 is out early next year).
Not all, but tried out most of them, beat some of them, others are still in progress, and some were just not my cup of tea (even though it was obvious they were great games).
> Which ones would you recommend if I were to only buy 1 or 2?
It depends on what type of games you are into, so it is kind of difficult to just give a general rec without knowing what you are into. I will try to explain my points for some of them, hopefully it helps.
* Resident Evil 4 Remake[completed], Dead Space Remake[completed] - action-horror games. Great remakes, especially RE4 (modernized the game in all the best ways possible, while still preserving the charm of the original). If you enjoyed the originals or wanted to experience them (but never got to it back when they came out), I heavily recommend. Or if you are into atmospheric third person action games. I am not a fan of horror games at all, but enjoyed those two greatly (given that it was more action that horror).
* Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom [played for a while, not completed] - an evolution of and a step up from the previous entry, Breath of the Wild. Very creative and free-form gameplay, open-world, heavily encouraging the player to experiment with building functional contraptions and exploration. Warning: Switch is greatly limiting the experience here, as the scale and physics of the game are clearly pushing the console to its max. 30fps and some graphical jankiness, but the art style and direction are great.
* Street Fighter 6 [still play online matches on a regular basis]- if you are into fighting games, this is a must-have, nothing more to say. They made this entry extremely approachable to newcomers, with amazing training modes and tutorials, as well as the "modern control scheme" option that makes things a bit easier for totally new people. If you aren't into fighting games as a genre though, I don't recommend.
* Hi-Fi Rush [in progress, about 25% way through] - reminds me of jet set radio aesthetically, really fun action-rpg game with a funky soundtrack, universe, and a fun gameplay. Kind of cheesy at times, but that's intentional.
* Bomb Rush Cyberfunk [almost finished it, about 85% done] - one of my personal favorite hidden gems this year. A spiritual successor to Jet Set Radio, some of the tracks were composed by the original composer of JSR. Platforming/light action game. I recommend watching a couple of videos and seeing if the vibe appeals to you. I have not played the original Jet Set Radio (but was aware of it), and I loved this game. If you enjoyed JSR in any capacity or if you like the vibe of the game (based on trailers and such), I recommend. Very off-beat and fun. If you want something unlike anything else out there, this is pretty much it. The only game that is even similar to it is the original Jet Set Radio.
* Blasphemous 2 [on the last boss at the moment] - indie metroidvania with some great atmosphere and a tight gameplay loop. If you are into 2d metroidvanias at all or liked the first game, this is a no-brainer. It is somewhat difficult and punishing, but not anywhere close to Dark Souls levels, very doable.
* Star Wars: Jedi Survivor [about halfway finished] - typical big budget western AAA game in Star Wars universe. Feels like a souls-like lite, making it more accessible. If you like star wars, or enjoyed the first game, or looking for something like Dark Souls but way more approachable, you will like this.
* Armored Core 6 [finished the main story, on new game+ right now] - mecha action game, made by Dark Souls devs. Combat is decent, but the star of the show is the garage/assembly mechanic. If you like tinkering with builds and managing all of that, or if you just like giant robots, this one is for you. Builds are easy to swap, no grind mechanics like in tons of RPGs, and the game has so much room to experiment with the builds, it is insane.
* Starfield [started, haven't played much], Hogwarts Legacy [90% done with the main story] - generally great games that would appeal to most people. Starfield is a typical massive open-world Bethesda RPG ala Skyrim. Hogwarts Legacy is a blockbuster open-world Harry Potter game. The aesthetics and vibes of Hogwarts Legacy are great, even for someone like me who hasn't finished all the books and isn't super into HP universe. Without knowing someone's general preferences for games, these two are the ones I would recommend to try out for most people (even though they aren't my two personal favorites out of this list).
* Baldur's Gate 3 [just started recently] - D&D system RPG game done incredibly well. A bit of a learning curve if you aren't familiar with D&D (I am not), and it might get a bit intense in terms of understanding the mechanics. However, this is a true love letter to D&D, and it is done incredibly well. If you have even some passing interest in D&D, or if you like complex RPG systems, this would be my #1 rec. I am personally a bit overwhelmed by it, but it is still an incredible game.
* Pikmin 4, Metroid Prime: Remastered - haven't played.
TLDR: General top recs without knowing anything about your preferences - RE4, Dead Space, Starfield, Hogwarts Legacy. For a more comprehensive explanation, see the details above. My personal biased favorites - RE4, Bomb Rush Cyberfunk, Blasphemous 2, and Street Fighter 6 (I am more of a Tekken player, but SF6 is just so good, it should have no issues sustaining me until Tekken 8 is out early next year).
Phone gaming has been the biggest market in gaming for awhile, and Apple has long had some of the highest gaming revenues or any company. Phones are already more powerful than a switch although much less powerful than the steam deck.
It is a ceaseless source of bafflement for me how people continually treat Apple as though it’s not already one of the biggest players in the gaming world with an utterly massive library of games you can’t find on any console or on Steam.
Apple has recently made some real strides with making it easier to port games recently because of the need to port VR games to the Apple Vision Pro.
It is a ceaseless source of bafflement for me how people continually treat Apple as though it’s not already one of the biggest players in the gaming world with an utterly massive library of games you can’t find on any console or on Steam.
Apple has recently made some real strides with making it easier to port games recently because of the need to port VR games to the Apple Vision Pro.
I could totally see Apple turning the iPhone into a Nintendo Switch type device. You can connect it to your Apple TV (maybe even wirelessly) and stream games + play with a controller. The HW is definitely impressive.
The problem is apple actively working against the game developers, or they just ignore the market completely. See the example of vulkan, and deprecation of 32bit games. It doesn't matter how good the hardware is. If the platform is not supporting the games and all they have are the occasional courting of the some of the games, the games won't come to the apple platform for free.
Also they are already making the mobile gaming money which is already lucrative. Are they also committing enough to the 'conventional' gaming?
Also they are already making the mobile gaming money which is already lucrative. Are they also committing enough to the 'conventional' gaming?
The App Store is the real issue. Apple's antipathy towards developers is perplexing. The number of stories I've heard about companies having problems due to some interpretation of their policies is ridiculous. There are even horror stories about businesses going bankrupt simply because Apple decided they were in violation of something and banned them from the App Store entirely. I mean, no game company wants to spend millions on a game only to have all of their games pulled because one of them was too similar to someone else's game or something (according to some Apple reviewer with way too much power!).
Metal predates vulkan, and the latter is mostly used on Android only. It is not particularly well-liked (too low-level for most things), also.
Apple is justified doing whatever they want. I even agree with apple's stand that traditional gaming market doesn't matter to them. But from the traditional developers' perspective, Apple system is hostile and they have no reason to develop for Apple. Valve go out of their way to develop proton which is based on vulkan. Apple could utilize it if they have supported vulkan. Valve actively expand the linux support for old and current games. Apple has to work for it to court the traditional developers. Superior hardware doesn't mean much when the alternatives are good enough
And it's justified, because it's really not that important in money making in grand scheme of things.
And it's justified, because it's really not that important in money making in grand scheme of things.
I don't think Proton is _based_ on Vulkan. From a quick search: https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/sgn36x/how_...
Serious gaming on iPhone destroys the battery in 1 year, 2 tops, tho.
They do have Nintendo games. They are just not very popular, because Nintendo chose to simplify them. You can use the Switch controller with your Apple devices, but they apps they made are just for simply touch control. Also AppleTV is not supported by the apps. But I guess that's more a decision from Nintendo, because they want their hardware to be used.
I don't think they care about Switch or other consoles, really. Switch sales are nothing compared to what they already sell for non-gaming systems.
You'll be able to play the same AAA games on your desktop Mac, your Macbook, your iPhone, your iPad, and your Apple Vision Pro (on a virtual gigantic screen), locally on the device with no WAN streaming required. That will be a relatively large market of people with money to spend, hard to ignore.
You'll be able to play the same AAA games on your desktop Mac, your Macbook, your iPhone, your iPad, and your Apple Vision Pro (on a virtual gigantic screen), locally on the device with no WAN streaming required. That will be a relatively large market of people with money to spend, hard to ignore.
It also shows the direction the M series, and I'm frankly happy with what they've shipped this year. Solid strategy, design and engineering.
> Granted, they don't have Nintendo's games
Didn't Nintendo appear on stage at the 2016 keynote event to announce Nintendo's foray into mobile gaming (on 3rd party hardware, anyway) with Super Mario Run? And didn't Apple add native support for the Switch Pro and Joycon controllers to iOS 16 last year? Nintendo has always hated being in the hardware business...
Didn't Nintendo appear on stage at the 2016 keynote event to announce Nintendo's foray into mobile gaming (on 3rd party hardware, anyway) with Super Mario Run? And didn't Apple add native support for the Switch Pro and Joycon controllers to iOS 16 last year? Nintendo has always hated being in the hardware business...
The M1 closely mirrored the A14 Bionic from the iPhone 12 (Pro), M2 the A15 Bionic from the iPhone 13 (Pro) and this the M3 “should” mirror the A16 Bionic from the iPhone 14 Pro / iPhone 15. If this continues we won’t have the new ray tracing GPU until M4.
Yes, but the A16 was a stopgap release, which only happened because Apple has to release a new iPhone CPU every year. The M-series does not update as frequently, and so it seems reasonable to imagine that the M3 is of the same "generation" as the A17.
I also expect Apple to become much more serious about gaming. They might even see gaming as an important item in their balance sheet in a few years time. They have the hardware, and the Vision Pro might need gaming to break even and turn a profit.
If Apple wants the iphone to be a serious alternative for gaming, they need official controller accessories. Something like Nintendo's joycons.
Relying on touch controls limits gaming to low pace, imprecise casual/idle games.
Relying on touch controls limits gaming to low pace, imprecise casual/idle games.
I'm with you on the interest in M3 Macs!
Be interesting to see how the new iPhone 15 Pro benchmarks on single-core and GPU.
That should be a leading indicator on what we can expect from the new M3!
Be interesting to see how the new iPhone 15 Pro benchmarks on single-core and GPU.
That should be a leading indicator on what we can expect from the new M3!
I think the M3 Macs will start to come out in 2024.
Apple has been over exaggerating their GPU performance for a few years now.
I'll believe their GPU is decent when I see it
I'll believe their GPU is decent when I see it
>I'm expecting the new M3 Macs next month to lean really heavily into discussing the GPU advances and (hopefully) announce a lot more support from big studios to bring more games to the Mac.
Assuming the trend of iPhone Ax chips showing up in Macs holds up, this would be late 2024 / early 2025 Macs and M4, not M3.
M2 is based based on A15, M3 is expected to be based on A16, M4 would be A17.
Assuming the trend of iPhone Ax chips showing up in Macs holds up, this would be late 2024 / early 2025 Macs and M4, not M3.
M2 is based based on A15, M3 is expected to be based on A16, M4 would be A17.
No, all the rumors say M3 is based on A17.
iPhones are useless for AAA games unless they open the platform up more.
One of the reasons stadia failed is that gamers that spend the most do not want to keep rebuying games. Apple seems to expect people to also keep rebuying games. Just. No.
One of the reasons stadia failed is that gamers that spend the most do not want to keep rebuying games. Apple seems to expect people to also keep rebuying games. Just. No.
> it's the GPU
hmmm... i want an app that uses geolocation to have my iPhone start to mine bitcoin whenever it's plugged in to a charger that's not in a location where I pay for the electricity
"mind if I charge my phone?"
"you again!? get out!"
hmmm... i want an app that uses geolocation to have my iPhone start to mine bitcoin whenever it's plugged in to a charger that's not in a location where I pay for the electricity
"mind if I charge my phone?"
"you again!? get out!"
Yeah, very good for your eyesight.
I recommend reading glasses, they reduce the eyestrain from using up close devices.
Sure, you gonna use glasses for a phone.
Yes, yes I do. Especially when I'm using my phone for a long period of time.
Why not use a bigger screen?!?!
It’s more distance than screen size that causes strain, and I can’t really pull out a laptop where I use my phone.
Plus, reading glasses are hardly an inconvenience in everyday life.
Plus, reading glasses are hardly an inconvenience in everyday life.
It looks like the one feature I was more eagerly awaiting is there: It can drive a display through the USB-C cable (https://www.apple.com/iphone-15-pro, scroll down to "Gigablast your gigabits" and then click on "Explore Connectivity".
Looking forward (assuming it will work like the iPad Pro) to not carrying a laptop with me when I know there is a USB-C or HDMI (with an adapter) screen available at my destination. Bluetooth keyboard and mouse, and I'm set. No more syncing with the phone - I am using the phone itself.
Looking forward (assuming it will work like the iPad Pro) to not carrying a laptop with me when I know there is a USB-C or HDMI (with an adapter) screen available at my destination. Bluetooth keyboard and mouse, and I'm set. No more syncing with the phone - I am using the phone itself.
I bought an Android phone that transforms into a desktop computer when you plug in a USB-C monitor, and the entire experience is mind blowing. You can even connect a bluetooth keyboard and use the phone screen as a touchpad. Unfortunately I don't think Apple is going to go in that direction anytime soon.
Ooooh more info please! Which phone? And what's the experience like? Are you using it for development at all or is it more things like word? I wanna know all about this setup, since I'm definitely going to need to upgrade my phone soon.
Any Samsung flagship will work (make sure it supports DeX). All the first party apps and plenty of store ones have a desktop UI. I haven't tried any native IDEs yet, but a cloud editor in the browser works perfect.
Rumour has it Google are going to introduce a desktop mode with the Pixel 8. In the mean time there's Samsung DeX, Motorola Ready For, and Huawei Easy Projection. If it has desktop mode I'll be getting the Pixel 8, if not the Samsung Galaxy S22. Pair it with a Quadlock Mag Case and the battery pack attachment and you just have one cable going from your phone to your AR glasses and you can quickly and easily swap battery packs when needed.
You can do dev work using the Termux terminal and online VSCode/Codespaces/CodeCatalyst or someone recently (like just this week I think) ported a native version of VSCode to the Play store.
You can do dev work using the Termux terminal and online VSCode/Codespaces/CodeCatalyst or someone recently (like just this week I think) ported a native version of VSCode to the Play store.
I have had a number of Samsung devices that I bought specifically to test out the DeX capabilities, and it's really hard to say whether I recommend it. I ended up going back to a real PC, and it was such a breath of fresh air.
My setup was: Anker A8383 USB-C hub, 1440p 120hz monitor, USB keyboard/mouse
-Apps close themselves even when the RAM isn't full, and the "RAM Plus" feature which gives you 8 GB of swap on a 12GB RAM phone doesn't necessarily fix it.
-Multiple apps can play audio at the same time if you install Sound Assistant and enable the requisite feature (multi-app sound). Similarly, you should get the Good Guardians and Good Lock apps from the Galaxy store (or apkmirror if in Canada) and tinker with the settings to taste. This is necessary to get 4K60 support or anything more than 1080p.
-I use Kiwi Browser, which supports all Chrome extensions and otherwise works like normal desktop Chrome. You'll want to go into the flags and enable the zoom thing (search for zoom) and then enable the zoom option under Accessbility in Kiwi settings, to fix websites that don't scale correctly. Tabs get unloaded/lazy loaded in background due to RAM issue.
-Doing anything moderately describable as "productive" or "intensive" (example: google maps website) creates more heat than the phone can handle over more than 10 minutes. Do not buy a Snapdragon 888, or other weak processor device (I am aware it is old but some people like used phones). Things like particles.js, hidden autoplays, etc that don't cause issues on desktop waste TDP on phones. The problem isn't necessarily that the phone overheats, it's that Samsung makes it so that not only does the battery stop charging if it gets over 36 C, it actually starts draining. For reference, your body temperature is around 36 C. On the S23 Ultra, with the Snapdragon 8 Gen 2, it's more or less usable now, with some battery drain from time to time. Weirdly, the battery drain issue is solved if you use a charger that supports USB PD PPS. The PPS part is VERY important. If you look at Samsung schematics, you will see that the PMIC does normal USB PD and there's a separate chip for PPS. Not all docks support PPS, in fact I'm not certain if ANY do. This is an area where more research is required. Of course, the fact that the PPS chip isn't affected might not be a thermal issue, but rather a "Samsung forgot to throttle charging on PPS", which would not be a good thing to talk about then because I don't want them to "fix" this.
-I cannot imagine development would be particularly easy on this device. I briefly looked into getting VSCode on there and whatnot but the Android Linux projects seem to have fallen quite some from their former glory. While web based stuff is likely fine, the aforementioned memory and CPU problems will make this difficult to use for anything too serious.
-All of the current common remote desktop solutions i.e. RustDesk (slow performance), Parsec (keyboard issues, no zoom), Reemo (mostly works, no keyboard shortcuts, lag, thermal problems), TeamViewer (3fps), Moonlight (mouse capture issue, thermal problems), RDP (low fps) etc have some kind of usability problem that makes them difficult to use for this application, in case you wanted to use the phone as a thin client.
My setup was: Anker A8383 USB-C hub, 1440p 120hz monitor, USB keyboard/mouse
-Apps close themselves even when the RAM isn't full, and the "RAM Plus" feature which gives you 8 GB of swap on a 12GB RAM phone doesn't necessarily fix it.
-Multiple apps can play audio at the same time if you install Sound Assistant and enable the requisite feature (multi-app sound). Similarly, you should get the Good Guardians and Good Lock apps from the Galaxy store (or apkmirror if in Canada) and tinker with the settings to taste. This is necessary to get 4K60 support or anything more than 1080p.
-I use Kiwi Browser, which supports all Chrome extensions and otherwise works like normal desktop Chrome. You'll want to go into the flags and enable the zoom thing (search for zoom) and then enable the zoom option under Accessbility in Kiwi settings, to fix websites that don't scale correctly. Tabs get unloaded/lazy loaded in background due to RAM issue.
-Doing anything moderately describable as "productive" or "intensive" (example: google maps website) creates more heat than the phone can handle over more than 10 minutes. Do not buy a Snapdragon 888, or other weak processor device (I am aware it is old but some people like used phones). Things like particles.js, hidden autoplays, etc that don't cause issues on desktop waste TDP on phones. The problem isn't necessarily that the phone overheats, it's that Samsung makes it so that not only does the battery stop charging if it gets over 36 C, it actually starts draining. For reference, your body temperature is around 36 C. On the S23 Ultra, with the Snapdragon 8 Gen 2, it's more or less usable now, with some battery drain from time to time. Weirdly, the battery drain issue is solved if you use a charger that supports USB PD PPS. The PPS part is VERY important. If you look at Samsung schematics, you will see that the PMIC does normal USB PD and there's a separate chip for PPS. Not all docks support PPS, in fact I'm not certain if ANY do. This is an area where more research is required. Of course, the fact that the PPS chip isn't affected might not be a thermal issue, but rather a "Samsung forgot to throttle charging on PPS", which would not be a good thing to talk about then because I don't want them to "fix" this.
-I cannot imagine development would be particularly easy on this device. I briefly looked into getting VSCode on there and whatnot but the Android Linux projects seem to have fallen quite some from their former glory. While web based stuff is likely fine, the aforementioned memory and CPU problems will make this difficult to use for anything too serious.
-All of the current common remote desktop solutions i.e. RustDesk (slow performance), Parsec (keyboard issues, no zoom), Reemo (mostly works, no keyboard shortcuts, lag, thermal problems), TeamViewer (3fps), Moonlight (mouse capture issue, thermal problems), RDP (low fps) etc have some kind of usability problem that makes them difficult to use for this application, in case you wanted to use the phone as a thin client.
I don't understand why you wouldn't just use VSCode/Codespaces or Cloud9/CodeCatalyst. The big cloud providers have their own remote desktop solutions now e.g AWS Workspaces, Azure Virtual Desktop that you can just use in the browser or if you want to stream a single app there's AWS AppStream and Azure RemoteApp.
S22 ultra works out of box. I plugged once my phone by mistake at work to some more advanced usbc cable for connecting our HP notebooks for all data and power to their dock, and immediately colleague's massive ultrawide screen turned on and showed whole phone's display in what seemed native resolution.
It was also rotating screen as I was rotating the phone. Nothing installed nor enabled on top of default install, didnt even know it could do it.
It was also rotating screen as I was rotating the phone. Nothing installed nor enabled on top of default install, didnt even know it could do it.
Sounds like Samsung Dex + something like VS Code on Android.
I'm kind of doing this with iPad, and microsoft remote desktop. it allows me to just carry an ipad and be able to access my CAD machine in work. Love it.
This sounds like Motorola in about 2012.
Can you do a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse?
iphone has supported that forever.
Be careful, though. Last I tried (iphone 7), you needed 3rd party bluetooth mouse, apple iphone worked with all mouses except apple one.
Also, you had the scary "this device causes radio interference" (do not remember the exact wording) warning from the apple trackpad on the apple ipad.
> No more syncing with the phone - I am using the phone itself.
That sounds about as productive as the never ending stream of “I tried switching to an iPad for dev” blogs
That sounds about as productive as the never ending stream of “I tried switching to an iPad for dev” blogs
But they'll be able to write so much in the text editor with their bluetooth keyboard!
Heh, a decent chunk of my work happens in Outlook, regrettably. Another good bit in the browser, accessing corporate stuff with the phone's per-app VPN.
So yeah it's sad, but I'd be able to write a lot with it.
But, to give you an example, tonight I went home carrying a laptop as this week I'm on call, and can only use a corporate device to reach our internal systems if something goes pear shaped. I often (weather permitting) bike to work and back, so a laptop is a significant annoyance to bring along.
So yeah it's sad, but I'd be able to write a lot with it.
But, to give you an example, tonight I went home carrying a laptop as this week I'm on call, and can only use a corporate device to reach our internal systems if something goes pear shaped. I often (weather permitting) bike to work and back, so a laptop is a significant annoyance to bring along.
> assuming it will work like the iPad Pro
I doubt they would sneak in such a feature without at least mentioning it. I expect this to be even more limited, perhaps just tethered airplay for better resolution.
I doubt they would sneak in such a feature without at least mentioning it. I expect this to be even more limited, perhaps just tethered airplay for better resolution.
It’s not even that. It’s just direct storage access for recording and image previews.
I don't think Apple will ever do that, to be honest. It took nearly a decade for them to get keyboard support working properly on the iPad, and they have zero incentive to copy Samsung DeX given they prefer to sell 3 different devices to people.
What they will do is allow you to record video directly to storage devices and preview photos on large displays as they are taken.
What they will do is allow you to record video directly to storage devices and preview photos on large displays as they are taken.
> I don't think Apple will ever do that, to be honest.
Apple sells lightning->HDMI adapters that could drive a display at 1080p and it’s been possible to pair a keyboard with your iPhone. I know folks that used that setup for writing longer texts while traveling.
Given that a lot of the infrastructure was already there, I wouldn’t be surprised if it trickles in over time.
You can see the same trajectory with iPads: At first they could mirror screens only, but with the recent changes to stage manager, they’re a pretty full-featured laptop if you use a keyboard and trackpad. My 11” pro is capable of driving a huge widescreen.
Apple sells lightning->HDMI adapters that could drive a display at 1080p and it’s been possible to pair a keyboard with your iPhone. I know folks that used that setup for writing longer texts while traveling.
Given that a lot of the infrastructure was already there, I wouldn’t be surprised if it trickles in over time.
You can see the same trajectory with iPads: At first they could mirror screens only, but with the recent changes to stage manager, they’re a pretty full-featured laptop if you use a keyboard and trackpad. My 11” pro is capable of driving a huge widescreen.
Yeah, I know - https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2022/12/14/1230
I’ve been doing that for years now on the iPad, and knowing Apple (my site’s 20+ years old, BTW), I would be extremely surprised if they ever put Stage Manager or anything similar on an iPhone. You can hack your way around things (Blink and Remote Desktop support external displays, etc., and there has been an external display API for a while that third-party apps have used creatively), but it is just not the way Apple thinks about the iPhone.
I’ve been doing that for years now on the iPad, and knowing Apple (my site’s 20+ years old, BTW), I would be extremely surprised if they ever put Stage Manager or anything similar on an iPhone. You can hack your way around things (Blink and Remote Desktop support external displays, etc., and there has been an external display API for a while that third-party apps have used creatively), but it is just not the way Apple thinks about the iPhone.
I regularly use my bluetooth mechanical keyboard (nuphy air 75) with both ipad and iphone. Works fine. Much better than the keyboards sold by apple. What are you missing?
My point was that there will never be a full “desktop mode” or even a good generic (supporting all apps) way of running apps on an external display. Right now you can develop apps that draw on an external display, but that has to be done on a per-app basis (there was a notable one a few years back that used “web apps” to build a “desktop” on the external display, but it’s not full, generic, zero code changes native app support).
This is already possible.
Oh that's interesting!
LOL - I have to get my Apple news from tidbits in comments nowadays as I cannot stand to watch the saccharine overproduced videos that Apple make.
I used to love an Apple Keynote... but now, they are a huge turnoff.
LOL - I have to get my Apple news from tidbits in comments nowadays as I cannot stand to watch the saccharine overproduced videos that Apple make.
I used to love an Apple Keynote... but now, they are a huge turnoff.
I really wish Apple let's you develop apps on Linux/iPad/iPhone.
One third of your wish is already answered. You can develop apps on the iPad.
Show me one serious iOS developer who's using an iPad as their primary dev machine.
How pray tell ... I was looking into doing that.
Swift Playgrounds
https://www.apple.com/swift/playgrounds/
https://www.apple.com/swift/playgrounds/
This is pitched as an education tool...
> This is pitched as an education tool...
And? From the page:
> When you’re ready to share your completed app, you can submit it to App Store Connect right from your iPad or Mac with Swift Playgrounds.
Someone asked about developing apps on the iPad, this is a way to develop (and submit to the App Store) apps on the iPad.
And? From the page:
> When you’re ready to share your completed app, you can submit it to App Store Connect right from your iPad or Mac with Swift Playgrounds.
Someone asked about developing apps on the iPad, this is a way to develop (and submit to the App Store) apps on the iPad.
I use blink[0] with a 40% keyboard to develop linux program on a vps.
If you want to do programming without wireless interenet, another option is to connect a raspberry pi zero 2w (with usb gadget mode enabled) to the usb c port using a single usb cable. Then the rpi zero will share a ethernet network with iOS device. Then you can use blink (again) to mosh to raspberrypi.local to do the development on the pi.
The reason that I don't do it on android with termux is that there's no high quality terminal emulator like blink on android.
[0]: https://blink.sh
If you want to do programming without wireless interenet, another option is to connect a raspberry pi zero 2w (with usb gadget mode enabled) to the usb c port using a single usb cable. Then the rpi zero will share a ethernet network with iOS device. Then you can use blink (again) to mosh to raspberrypi.local to do the development on the pi.
The reason that I don't do it on android with termux is that there's no high quality terminal emulator like blink on android.
[0]: https://blink.sh
Would be cool once they would allow geforce now. Plug in phone to display, connect mouse/keyboard and play AAA games at 4K60+.
Hmm, I was doing that on an iPad last winter, albeit with an XBox One controller.
I have to go this way with some apps, because the PC/Mac desktop versions are unavailable (banking apps), or are missing significant numbers of features (CapCut). So I have to use a smartphone as my primary work terminal, which is impossible if you just use the touchscreen.
I hope this is true. Even with a Keyboard and mouse and I can browse Internet with it would be great.
FWIW keyboards have worked OK all along, I regularly use one of my wireless keyboards switched over to the phone to type longer stuff, though the autocorrect gets more annoying in that case.
Mice are a lot more annoying, because they're part of the assistive devices, so you need to enable Assistive Touch, and then you either have the mouse connected or the Assistive Touch menu taking space on the display, which is probably not useful if you're abled. If Assistive Touch is disabled, the mouse "works" but you don't get a visible pointer which is completely stupid.
Possibly connecting to an external display won't have that issue, or iOS 17 will make the experience a bit better for non-assistive mousing.
Mice are a lot more annoying, because they're part of the assistive devices, so you need to enable Assistive Touch, and then you either have the mouse connected or the Assistive Touch menu taking space on the display, which is probably not useful if you're abled. If Assistive Touch is disabled, the mouse "works" but you don't get a visible pointer which is completely stupid.
Possibly connecting to an external display won't have that issue, or iOS 17 will make the experience a bit better for non-assistive mousing.
Would be interesting to see how it can use a larger screen. Definitely the phone is powerful enough for most tasks.
I don't see anything about displays on that page. All I see is "iPhone 15 Pro lets you shoot ProRes video directly to external storage, so you can quickly switch drives and keep your iPhone camera rolling on set. Want to capture slow motion Hollywood style? Now you can record ProRes 4K at 60 fps to an external SSD."
I highly doubt the 15 Pro can drive a display. In the unlikely case that it can, you'll be limited to very low res. Why would they limit USB to 10gbps if the PHY can push the ~32gbps eDP bandwidth required for a modern display?
I highly doubt the 15 Pro can drive a display. In the unlikely case that it can, you'll be limited to very low res. Why would they limit USB to 10gbps if the PHY can push the ~32gbps eDP bandwidth required for a modern display?
The "Explore Connectivity" modal window you can open in the "Gigablast
your gigabits" (meh) section, as I quoted in my original post, has this block of text:
USB‑Convenient.
Now you can connect USB‑C gear like thumb drives, fast external storage, 4K displays, and microphones. And you can charge Apple Watch or AirPods from your iPhone.9
USB‑Convenient.
Now you can connect USB‑C gear like thumb drives, fast external storage, 4K displays, and microphones. And you can charge Apple Watch or AirPods from your iPhone.9
I must have landed on the wrong side of an AB test because that text doesn't show up for me on the "Explore Connectivity" modal window. I checked with both Chrome/Windows and iOS.
Anyway I really hope that text refers to DP alt mode, not displaylink. Any USB port works with displaylink chips as long as the OS has the driver
Anyway I really hope that text refers to DP alt mode, not displaylink. Any USB port works with displaylink chips as long as the OS has the driver
It seems to support normal DP output (from the "tech specs" page https://www.apple.com/iphone-15-pro/specs/):
> Video mirroring and video out support: Up to 4K HDR through native DisplayPort output over USB-C or USB-C Digital AV Adapter
> Video mirroring and video out support: Up to 4K HDR through native DisplayPort output over USB-C or USB-C Digital AV Adapter
Thanks, that confirms it. I wonder if they have separate DP and USB PHYs and an external mux chip.
Also TIL iPhone SoCs are used in Apple TVs. Apparently they use a MCDP2920A4 DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.0 converter for that: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Apple+TV+4K+2021+Teardown/14...
Also TIL iPhone SoCs are used in Apple TVs. Apparently they use a MCDP2920A4 DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.0 converter for that: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Apple+TV+4K+2021+Teardown/14...
“ Now you can connect USB‑C gear like thumb drives, fast external storage, 4K displays, and microphones.”
Right in the linked site
Right in the linked site
Apple's continued focus on gaming image quality is weird (ray tracing?), since despite Apple Arcade the mobile market still is still dominated by freemium games with simple graphics / lower graphical requirements.
There are precisely two freemium games that take advantage of the power of the Apple Silicon chips: Genshin Impact and Honkai: Star Rail, which were coincidently the two released games highlighted. (it may be interesting to see what Ubisoft and Capcom put out but the I suspect they'll price their games too high)
It bodes well for a M3 Pro chip for the next MacBook Pros, though.
There are precisely two freemium games that take advantage of the power of the Apple Silicon chips: Genshin Impact and Honkai: Star Rail, which were coincidently the two released games highlighted. (it may be interesting to see what Ubisoft and Capcom put out but the I suspect they'll price their games too high)
It bodes well for a M3 Pro chip for the next MacBook Pros, though.
> Apple's continued focus on gaming image quality is weird (ray tracing?), since despite Apple Arcade the mobile market still is still dominated by freemium games with simple graphics / lower graphical requirements.
They use the same GPU core design from handheld to desktop, so the improvement will apply everywhere as chips are updated.
I think their strategy is that iOS makes too much money for gaming companies to ignore, which means those companies are going to have an easy time reworking iOS games to target a mouse/keyboard/gamepad UI on Macs, since the two existing platforms (and even their upcoming AR/VR platform) have common APIs and CPU/GPU cores.
They use the same GPU core design from handheld to desktop, so the improvement will apply everywhere as chips are updated.
I think their strategy is that iOS makes too much money for gaming companies to ignore, which means those companies are going to have an easy time reworking iOS games to target a mouse/keyboard/gamepad UI on Macs, since the two existing platforms (and even their upcoming AR/VR platform) have common APIs and CPU/GPU cores.
It also can improve DX and make for easier ports downstream. If the new Assassin's Creed uses some ray tracing on their console version, they use the same technique on the iPhone.
The M3 chip is rumored to also use the 3nm process, so that's expected.
It's a way to increase profits in an area of R&D that's required for the AR side of things.
Gaming is an easily marketable profit funnel that directly relates with all the necessary advancements needed to pursue the Vision Pro/Visual Compute/LLM side of things. In my opinion, anyway.
Gaming is an easily marketable profit funnel that directly relates with all the necessary advancements needed to pursue the Vision Pro/Visual Compute/LLM side of things. In my opinion, anyway.
Perhaps the improvements also benefit their AR/VR products? Could be a longer term play at hand.
This was my first thought too, Apple always plays the long game and that's why people keep saying "no innovation" after every single keynote :D
Stuff that was added today will pay of in 3-4 years after it has trickled down to enough users. Like the spatial camera, now it's a curiosity on the top-end model, but in 5 years it might be a standard feature in phones with great synergy with the Apple Vision non-pro model they just happen to release when there are enough devices to produce content for it.
Stuff that was added today will pay of in 3-4 years after it has trickled down to enough users. Like the spatial camera, now it's a curiosity on the top-end model, but in 5 years it might be a standard feature in phones with great synergy with the Apple Vision non-pro model they just happen to release when there are enough devices to produce content for it.
The second you can have competing app stores I see Steam opening shop and mobile gaming blowing up.
Interesting to think about how many pieces are almost in place for this. The two big players in game engines have had a huge iOS presence for years, just for a different segment of the gaming market; PC game developers have had a few years now to optimize titles for the constraints of the Steam Deck; Apple's game porting toolkit was just announced this past WWDC…
If Valve gets the opportunity to gain a foothold on iOS, the landscape could change very quickly.
If Valve gets the opportunity to gain a foothold on iOS, the landscape could change very quickly.
Yep, overnight, indie games will have a new platform with millions of users hungry for content. I see SO many people on trains killing time playing mobile "games". I can imagine local multiplayer gaming becoming a thing.
Sometimes directions that don't make sense from a technical or market point of view are made with something much further in the future in mind. This could be the case here.
VisionPro
I guess they need such hardware for the Apple Vision Pro, and are working with several heavily NDA-ed companies to get software out that uses it when that launches.
This is like Spatial Audio. So many things have been built and rolled out in support of Vision Pro. Obviously it'll be the A17 there too.
Hint: the raytracing GPU engines rely on general purpose GPU compute.
It does raytracing because it has raw power. What you use this power for is another story. It can easily augment the neural engine for example.
It does raytracing because it has raw power. What you use this power for is another story. It can easily augment the neural engine for example.
[deleted]
> Apple's continued focus on gaming image quality is weird (ray tracing?)
Guessing it’s important for an eventual vision pro integration
Guessing it’s important for an eventual vision pro integration
candy crush with ray tracing :)
Sticking the 23-year-old USB 2.0 port on a device that is made in 2023 and costs $1k is inexcusable. [non-pro]
There is absolutely no excuse when we're talking about a device at this price point and this age.
It doesn't matter that it wouldn't be fully exercised by most users. These are premium products at a premium price point. It's insulting that they would cheap out like that.
There is absolutely no excuse when we're talking about a device at this price point and this age.
It doesn't matter that it wouldn't be fully exercised by most users. These are premium products at a premium price point. It's insulting that they would cheap out like that.
It makes sense though. The non-pro models are using last year’s A16 SOC without any updates. I assume they’ll get USB 3 next year when the SOC is updated. I’d be much more disappointed if that’s not the case though.
I'd assume the non-pros will remain on USB2, and that serves as a segmentation feature. Especially since only the pros can shoot in ProRAW and ProRES.
On iPads, the "base" iPad is on USB2 speeds, the mini supports 5Gbps, the air 10, and only the pro supports 40Gb USB4. And while SoC differences could explain differences between the iPad (A14) and Mini (A15), the 5th gen Air uses the same SoC as the 5th gen Pro which already did support 40Gb USB4. So it's not an SoC limitation.
Although they ended up putting the 48MP main camera on the non-pro and I thought that'd remain pro-exclusive as well so...
On iPads, the "base" iPad is on USB2 speeds, the mini supports 5Gbps, the air 10, and only the pro supports 40Gb USB4. And while SoC differences could explain differences between the iPad (A14) and Mini (A15), the 5th gen Air uses the same SoC as the 5th gen Pro which already did support 40Gb USB4. So it's not an SoC limitation.
Although they ended up putting the 48MP main camera on the non-pro and I thought that'd remain pro-exclusive as well so...
It's a bit more complicated than that with the iPads. The Mini supports 5Gbps but only as USB Host mode. If you hook it up to a computer as a USB client, it'll still be USB 2.0 [0]
If you're familiar with the Raspberry Pi 4, those do the same thing. That SoC supports USB 2.0 client. The USB 3.0 host is done through an external (to the SoC) USB controller, a VIA Labs VL805. That's what the Mini and iPad Pros have done. The first iPad Pro didn't even have a USB 3.0 to USB-A cable for USB client because it didn't support it, just their host mode accessory. The newer Pros probably do the 40Gb USB4 through a similar USB controller and only in host most. Not client, where it's limited to 10Gb [1].
[0] https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/ipad-mini-6-is-still-us...
[1] https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/thunderbolt-3-cable-to-...
If you're familiar with the Raspberry Pi 4, those do the same thing. That SoC supports USB 2.0 client. The USB 3.0 host is done through an external (to the SoC) USB controller, a VIA Labs VL805. That's what the Mini and iPad Pros have done. The first iPad Pro didn't even have a USB 3.0 to USB-A cable for USB client because it didn't support it, just their host mode accessory. The newer Pros probably do the 40Gb USB4 through a similar USB controller and only in host most. Not client, where it's limited to 10Gb [1].
[0] https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/ipad-mini-6-is-still-us...
[1] https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/thunderbolt-3-cable-to-...
I have an iPad Pro 11-inch 4th gen and that supports Thunderbolt/USB 4 but when connected as to my MacBook Pro it shows up as USB 3.1 at 10 Gbps. So that is correct.
It would definitely be a disappointment if they have the hardware on the device for 3, but arbitrarily limit to 2 for pure market segmentation. The iPad situation as you described it is discouraging.
They could implement USB3 5Gbps on A15 if it was on future roadmap.
The Pros do use USB3? Or are you talking about the regular 15? I still agree with you, but unfortunately the vast majority of regular iPhone users aren’t transferring large files over a cable and won’t care.
The regular 15. And 3.0 also supports much faster charging.
Maybe most won't care, but I still think it's disgusting and pathetic for a company this size with products this expensive to cheap out by using USB 2.0.
Maybe most won't care, but I still think it's disgusting and pathetic for a company this size with products this expensive to cheap out by using USB 2.0.
They indicated in the pitch for the Pro that they added logic to the new CPU to drive USB 3 at 10gbps. The non-Pro is using last year's CPU, so while yes I guess that means they did "cheap out", I imagine the cost to include 3.0 on the non-Pro is pretty high and most people don't care.
This. Consider the market. Samsung also doesn't add its newly-engineered, top-of-the-line solutions to its lower-end new models.
Almost all the people on this forum are in the target market for the Pro. The standard iPhone is not built for us, nor will most of its users have a problem with 480Mbps-over-wire transfer speeds.
Almost all the people on this forum are in the target market for the Pro. The standard iPhone is not built for us, nor will most of its users have a problem with 480Mbps-over-wire transfer speeds.
Every S23 model uses the same SoC.
And they are all not competitive with Apple Silicon. What's your point?
USB 2.0 vs 3.0 has nothing to do with power delivery.
The only meaningful difference between 2.0 and 3.0 for the iPhone use-case is transfer speeds, and the simple reality is that the overwhelming majority of iPhone owners only use a cable to charge their phone, not to transfer data on/off it.
The only meaningful difference between 2.0 and 3.0 for the iPhone use-case is transfer speeds, and the simple reality is that the overwhelming majority of iPhone owners only use a cable to charge their phone, not to transfer data on/off it.
USB 3.0 isn't really necessary to support higher charging speeds that is mostly through Power Delivery which I believe both the regular 15 and pro support since they both advertise 20W fast charging.
> cheap out by using USB 2.0
Could there have been other tradeoffs? Power consumption, silicon footprint, et cetera. Most people never use USB to transfer data to and from their phones. It would be slightly ridiculous to support 3.0 if it meant tradeoffs in anything practical just so they can say they support a new protocol.
Could there have been other tradeoffs? Power consumption, silicon footprint, et cetera. Most people never use USB to transfer data to and from their phones. It would be slightly ridiculous to support 3.0 if it meant tradeoffs in anything practical just so they can say they support a new protocol.
It’s obviously market segmentation.
Well for now it's likely just the IP blocks (the non-pros uses the A16 which was certainly designed without since none of the 14s was shipped with support).
When the non-pros get the A17 we'll see if they disable the USB3 controller and it's market seg. I'd assume so but...
When the non-pros get the A17 we'll see if they disable the USB3 controller and it's market seg. I'd assume so but...
or USB-C (and its order of magnitude complexity) isn't a SoC peripheral on the already-taped-out A16 but it is on the A17?
On the other hand, the 6th gen Mini uses an A15, and has USB 3 speeds support (only 5Gb but still).
So apple might have had USB3 speeds support in the A15 specifically for the mini, or they might have included USB3 support for a while in all SoC and enable it selectively for segmentation purposes.
That would gel with the comparison between the iPad Air 5th gen and the iPad Pro 5th gen: they both use the desktop-class M1, but the Pro supports full TB3 and USB4, while the Air only supports 10GB.
So apple might have had USB3 speeds support in the A15 specifically for the mini, or they might have included USB3 support for a while in all SoC and enable it selectively for segmentation purposes.
That would gel with the comparison between the iPad Air 5th gen and the iPad Pro 5th gen: they both use the desktop-class M1, but the Pro supports full TB3 and USB4, while the Air only supports 10GB.
Dunno, I don't own Apple products and was quite disillusioned with my one workplace MBP. I'm unfamiliar with their newest chips and feature support. Do they maybe have an off-chip USB controller on the tablet?
Honestly, I'd expect any Armv8.3+ or Armv9 to have USB PD/USB-C, Thunderbolt, etc. on the chip itself. USB PD is even halfway-or-more supported on some budget Cortex-M targets. Apple, though, is a special case; the chipmaker and developer are the same, so they have the freedom to say "no USB-C on mobile chips" and include only the features they want.
My post was pure speculation and a little giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Honestly, I'd expect any Armv8.3+ or Armv9 to have USB PD/USB-C, Thunderbolt, etc. on the chip itself. USB PD is even halfway-or-more supported on some budget Cortex-M targets. Apple, though, is a special case; the chipmaker and developer are the same, so they have the freedom to say "no USB-C on mobile chips" and include only the features they want.
My post was pure speculation and a little giving them the benefit of the doubt.
The 4th gen iPad Air uses an A14 and also has USB 3 support.
So Apple is using a PCIe USB 3.0 controller for USB 3.0 iPads.
They could've easily done that on the iPhone 15, so it's market segmentation.
So Apple is using a PCIe USB 3.0 controller for USB 3.0 iPads.
They could've easily done that on the iPhone 15, so it's market segmentation.
> They could've easily done that on the iPhone 15, so it's market segmentation.
Adding additional chips/additional controllers is not "easily" done. The iPads have more space to spare on their boards, and have larger batteries that can absorb the additional power requirements for running those additional chips much easier.
Adding additional chips/additional controllers is not "easily" done. The iPads have more space to spare on their boards, and have larger batteries that can absorb the additional power requirements for running those additional chips much easier.
It honestly feels like they want people to buy pro model for more $$$.
USB 2.0 data rates have absolutely nothing to do with charging speed. You don't even need to support data (at least, USB data) at all to support fast charging speeds. You just need to support PD, which is on separate, required pins that both phones support.
Where are you seeing this? Their product page for the 15 non-pro says it uses the same cable you use to charge your mac.
It also says "The included USB‑C Charge Cable is compatible with AirPods Pro (2nd generation) with MagSafe Charging Case (USB‑C)."
It also says "The included USB‑C Charge Cable is compatible with AirPods Pro (2nd generation) with MagSafe Charging Case (USB‑C)."
USB-C is the physical connector, and on the iPhone 15 it carries USB 2.0 for data.
I'm mostly interested in the manufacturing technology -- seems like they're doing some kind of friction/ultrasonic/diffusion welding between the titanium frame and the aluminium insides.
That's a notoriously difficult weld to make: https://doi.org/10.1177/14644207211010839
I would love to know what process they're using and how they've got it reliable!
That's a notoriously difficult weld to make: https://doi.org/10.1177/14644207211010839
I would love to know what process they're using and how they've got it reliable!
Apple is fairly silent on these kinds of things, but it really is impressive how much they invest in leading edge manufacturing - huge CNC factories, this insane mixed metal weld, laser precision drilling…
I'm excited for the most silly pedestrian reason: Because I detest the Apple 'DRM' chip that is implicit in Lightning even when used just for charging. I call it "DRM'd Electricity."
Choices of cables we've had for the whole existence of the iPhone:
• Apple cables, $20-30, not even nice, cheap plastic with poor strain relief, work reliably until they succumb easily to damage
• Licensed (like Belkin), $20-30, nicer, work reliably
• 1,000 brands on Amazon, etc. Not licensed, 10% DOA rate, sometimes just stop working. Physically nearly always nicer than Apple. $3-12.
I'm really excited to be able to just have many of the same charging cables everywhere, and to buy them for $5 or less. Even buying cheap cables, I've never once had a USB-C (or even the terrible micro-B) cable fail to work.
Note: I actually feel just as strongly even though I only even use a cable in the car, and charge with "Magsafe" everywhere else. I just hate Lightning that much. Also, I could easily afford the Apple cables, but it would physically pain me to waste that much money knowing it's purely additional margin for Apple.
Choices of cables we've had for the whole existence of the iPhone:
• Apple cables, $20-30, not even nice, cheap plastic with poor strain relief, work reliably until they succumb easily to damage
• Licensed (like Belkin), $20-30, nicer, work reliably
• 1,000 brands on Amazon, etc. Not licensed, 10% DOA rate, sometimes just stop working. Physically nearly always nicer than Apple. $3-12.
I'm really excited to be able to just have many of the same charging cables everywhere, and to buy them for $5 or less. Even buying cheap cables, I've never once had a USB-C (or even the terrible micro-B) cable fail to work.
Note: I actually feel just as strongly even though I only even use a cable in the car, and charge with "Magsafe" everywhere else. I just hate Lightning that much. Also, I could easily afford the Apple cables, but it would physically pain me to waste that much money knowing it's purely additional margin for Apple.
But now you'll get into the fun USB-C -land, where two USB-C cables can have wildly different capabilities with no external way to check it :)
One cable might only support power, one might only be for data and one supports USB-PD up to 120W. How can you know? By trying them all!
One cable might only support power, one might only be for data and one supports USB-PD up to 120W. How can you know? By trying them all!
Buy good cables and throw the others away. (You can't really trust any cable you didn't buy anyway because of O.MG.)
The problem is that "good" cables are also really expensive. And thick.
Sometimes I just want to charge my matchbox sized flashlight from Aliexpress. I really don't want to use the full-on 120W + network + 8k video capable cable for that. It's so thick that the weight of the flashlight can't hold it down =)
Maybe they'll figure out some kind of markings for the cables eventually.
I'd mostly use three categories: Charge Tiny Device (5-10W enough), Charge Medium Device + data (20-30W, phones and tablets), Charge Big Device (laptops, power banks - as much as the spec can handle)
Sometimes I just want to charge my matchbox sized flashlight from Aliexpress. I really don't want to use the full-on 120W + network + 8k video capable cable for that. It's so thick that the weight of the flashlight can't hold it down =)
Maybe they'll figure out some kind of markings for the cables eventually.
I'd mostly use three categories: Charge Tiny Device (5-10W enough), Charge Medium Device + data (20-30W, phones and tablets), Charge Big Device (laptops, power banks - as much as the spec can handle)
So there is an external way to check it-thickness
BUUUT for example the USB-C cable that comes with Apple's laptops is relatively thin and can still handle around 80-100W, can't remember exactly.
And my 3rd party kinda_known_name -cable does the same but is at least twice as thick and really hard to wrestle in tight corners. =)
And my 3rd party kinda_known_name -cable does the same but is at least twice as thick and really hard to wrestle in tight corners. =)
I wouldn't get excited yet. TMK they are only required to implement the connector and certain charging requirements, not any particular complete USB protocol spec, so it seems likely they'll continue the same MFi program over USB-C cables.
I would be extremely surprised if Apple introduced a requirement for specially marked USB-C cables for the iPhone. The iPad already uses USB-C, and works with any USB-C cable.
What I would expect is that it will work with any USB-C cable but possibly only work at max speed or watts on MFi cables
As it turns out, that isn't the case:
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/contrary-to-rumors-t...
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/contrary-to-rumors-t...
I agree with the sentiment of anti-DRM but Anker (who are highly reputable) have been doing licensed cables for <$10 for years.
> and the thinnest borders on iPhone.
I must be the only consumer who despises the thin edges on my current iPhone 14 pro. I'd like to be able to hold my phone and not randomly trigger edge-sensitive gestures like "scroll to top" (that you can't disable!).
I must be the only consumer who despises the thin edges on my current iPhone 14 pro. I'd like to be able to hold my phone and not randomly trigger edge-sensitive gestures like "scroll to top" (that you can't disable!).
On phones it's tolerable, because you can kinda palm it and just use the edges of your hand to hold it.
But tiny bezels on tablets? Oof. Like the lates Galaxy Tab. How are you supposed to hold it without pressing at least 5 icons accidentally?
But tiny bezels on tablets? Oof. Like the lates Galaxy Tab. How are you supposed to hold it without pressing at least 5 icons accidentally?
I agree, but that’s mostly addressed by putting a case on it.
Selection bias, but when my phone has no case, I never drop it. When I have a case on it, I drop it all the time.
So "You are holding it wrong!"?
fair point - Apple could and should apply some ML to detect false edge presses perhaps, but putting a case on is a way I address this problem immediately. I prefer a case anyway, so it's no issue for me, but to each his or her own.
Same here. I dont mind the larger trackpad with smaller edge on the new MacBook, or the thin edge on iPhone, providing they can make the false sensitive trigger at 100% accuracy. Not 99%, or 99.9999%, but infinitely close to 100%. I am not sure even sure if that is possible. But right now it isn't. And the random trigger is annoying enough to side with you on the subject matter.
I have never gotten used the notch. It ruined it visually for me.
Does that mean that iPhone 15 Pro camera has the same physical module as iPhone 14 Pro, apart from some software changes? Or did they release a wrong data for their comparator on apple website?
https://pasteboard.co/2vRyDDgKlHCV.png
https://pasteboard.co/2vRyDDgKlHCV.png
It's not the same physical module. The physical aspects they list (megapixels, aperature) are the same, but the actual 48MP sensor they use is improved.
"iPhone 15 pro features a more advanced 48MP main camera, with an even larger sensor than iPhone 15 [and therefore iPhone 14 Pro]. The camera includes a new nanoscale coating to reduce lens flare."
See here: https://www.youtube.com/live/ZiP1l7jlIIA?si=FFSYTVqY0unVRSqu...
They also mention it enabling new focal lengths and better low light performance.
"iPhone 15 pro features a more advanced 48MP main camera, with an even larger sensor than iPhone 15 [and therefore iPhone 14 Pro]. The camera includes a new nanoscale coating to reduce lens flare."
See here: https://www.youtube.com/live/ZiP1l7jlIIA?si=FFSYTVqY0unVRSqu...
They also mention it enabling new focal lengths and better low light performance.
[deleted]
I got exactly the same impression. They announced things like improved low light performance (but same aperture).
The data must be wrong because the announcement speaks of 5x optical zoom.
If I got it right, 5x optical zoom is only available in 15 Pro Max, not the normal-sized 15 Pro.
What's the damn point of having the base line and the "Pro" line if some features are still going to be locked behind a larger (more expensive) device?
I'm considering upgrading but I don't want to carry around a Max sized device. I doubt it will fit in my pockets even.
I'm considering upgrading but I don't want to carry around a Max sized device. I doubt it will fit in my pockets even.
For those that want the rest of the Pro features like newer SoC which don't require additional physical space in the phone.
Right. But why have the "pro" line if the phones aren't equivalent? I'm sure there's probably some opaque reason why the smaller size can't have the 5x optical zoom as well but I still think it's dumb.
I want the Pro version. I want all of the features, but not the Max size. But that phone doesn't exist for some reason. I want to believe it's a practical limitation, but my guess is the main reason is to up sell.
I want the Pro version. I want all of the features, but not the Max size. But that phone doesn't exist for some reason. I want to believe it's a practical limitation, but my guess is the main reason is to up sell.
It shouldn't be any more opaque than why the larger device also has a larger battery. Optical zoom requires additional physical space for the optics doing the zoom. This doesn't make all smaller device options the basic models it makes them the smaller options of their class. Some people want the top class but still smaller, even if it means it doesn't have everything the largest top class option does.
As the person you responded to just stated, the reason is the physical size of the device itself. Apple has done this before before w/ the 12 pro vs. pro max.
They cited the actual available space under the camera module for why the Max gets it and not the Pro: https://youtu.be/ZiP1l7jlIIA?t=4556 (1:15:56)
> What's the damn point
Monnney. Monney monney money.
They did the same thing with the iPhone 7 Plus, the first iPhone with two cameras.
It could also be because there’s extra room in the larger phone but… I’ll stick with because Timmy loooves money. Point in case, they just increased the price of the Max and said “same price as last year (for the higher storage you don’t need)!”
Monnney. Monney monney money.
They did the same thing with the iPhone 7 Plus, the first iPhone with two cameras.
It could also be because there’s extra room in the larger phone but… I’ll stick with because Timmy loooves money. Point in case, they just increased the price of the Max and said “same price as last year (for the higher storage you don’t need)!”
I have a 13 Pro Max and carry it in my jeans back pocket.
It's not about the pocket for me, it's about being able to reach the screen when using the phone with just a single hand. I can barely do this on my 13 Pro (I skipped the 14 Pro), I sure can't on any Pro Max, and I sure understand why my wife says she won't replace her 13 Mini.
Depending on where you live, that may not be a great idea. In my parts, you could pretty much bet that it would get stolen if you carried it like that.
I think you're right—Pro Max has 5x, Pro has 3x.
3x :(
Man, I was really hoping for at least 4. There is just no way I want to carry a Max.
Man, I was really hoping for at least 4. There is just no way I want to carry a Max.
I got the same exact conclusion.
The most interesting thing to me is that switching to a new SOC process node gives you the option of bumping up performance or reducing power draw, and it sounds like Apple has once again chosen to reduce power draw.
It seems like other vendors have been going the "push performance no matter what it does to power draw and heat" route for a long time now.
It seems like other vendors have been going the "push performance no matter what it does to power draw and heat" route for a long time now.
On the CPU game, apple is so far ahead that it might not even make sense to talk about other vendors. Apple could deliberately downclock their CPUs and still beat the shit out of any flagship android. Hell, their 3 years old lineup actually beats the current year’s top.
It mostly comes down to manufacturing processes. When you compare 5nm Apple hardware to 5nm hardware from other competitors, the power/performance disparity closes significantly. Since Apple is the biggest though, they can out-spend anyone else who tries to buy out the latest node right now. This has been the case since 2020, and seems to still hold true.
Just plain not true. Process is relevant but is not the biggest factor. Design is.
Design makes a big difference, but Apple is not the only company designing high-performance ARM cores on TSMC's finest. Some might even say they aren't the best designers doing it, either.
Some might
I imagine the reasoning is that most people do not use the performance, but would value less need to charge the battery.
Your conclusion is wrong. There is no difference in battery life if you compare to 14 Pro on their site.
Their website is not a reliable source for performance numbers. We'll have to wait for third party benchmarks
I disagree. Apple is the only site that gives realistic numbers rather than theoretical maxes.
Independent benchmarks are good, but Apple keeps everything very focused on what an average person buying it would experience, even benchmarks.
Independent benchmarks are good, but Apple keeps everything very focused on what an average person buying it would experience, even benchmarks.
Why run faster if you are already comfortably number one? It makes sense to focus on something that everyone wants improvement on: battery life.
To be honest, in general it does improve battery life if you are faster. Battery life is a race to CPU sleep mode, and if you finish the job faster, the more energy you can save.
I’m skeptical about this. Why would a faster processor in it of itself be more energy efficient at executing instructions?
A faster processor reduces execution time allowing the CPU to return to sleep status faster. Total energy used is power x time. While increasing operating frequency increases power quadratically due to P = CV^2, it is usually a net energy savings to let the frequency boost as high as a mass produced chip can go to minimize time spent in the highest power state. This assumes a finite bursty workload.
>and it sounds like Apple has once again chosen to reduce power draw
We will have to see. They have a 10% performance increase and I am betting there will be 5% coming from Clock Speed.
And it is not like Apple could push power draw any further as they have maxed out single core power draw. Unlike other competitor ( ARM / Snapdragon ) which has a much lower single core power draw figures and hence they try to push as much as possible.
We will have to see. They have a 10% performance increase and I am betting there will be 5% coming from Clock Speed.
And it is not like Apple could push power draw any further as they have maxed out single core power draw. Unlike other competitor ( ARM / Snapdragon ) which has a much lower single core power draw figures and hence they try to push as much as possible.
> We will have to see. They have a 10% performance increase and I am betting there will be 5% coming from Clock Speed.
The big cores got faster, but the little ones did not.
> the performance cores are 10 percent faster... the efficiency cores are more efficient rather than being faster
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/apples-new-iphone-15...
Which sounds to me like a new version of the big cores, but not of the little cores on a more power efficient process node.
However, as always, time will tell.
The big cores got faster, but the little ones did not.
> the performance cores are 10 percent faster... the efficiency cores are more efficient rather than being faster
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/09/apples-new-iphone-15...
Which sounds to me like a new version of the big cores, but not of the little cores on a more power efficient process node.
However, as always, time will tell.
Well it turns out it is even worst [1], little to no IPC increase and purely clock speed increase. The CPU is basically a die shrink of A16.
Looks like any IPC will likely be in A18.
[1] https://www.macrumors.com/2023/09/14/iphone-15-pro-geekbench...
Looks like any IPC will likely be in A18.
[1] https://www.macrumors.com/2023/09/14/iphone-15-pro-geekbench...
[deleted]
USB-C supporting writing ProRes video and photo files directly to external storage is something I did not see coming.
That's Apple actually undercutting their own storage upgrades... what is going on?
That's Apple actually undercutting their own storage upgrades... what is going on?
If you are recording videos of any length with ProRes, you will rapidly run out or space on even the largest capacity iPhone. So I think Apple is enabling a new use case more than cannibalizing sales of lower storage models.
They also increased the smallest storage size for the 15 Pro Max to 256 GB, which is a welcome change.
They just dropping the 156GB Pro Max SKU. The 15 Pro Max's starting price is 100 USD more than the 14 Pro Max's starting price.
Indeed. It effectively drops the price in Europe by €130 (if you wanted a 256GB model)
iPhone 15 Pro Max 256GB is €1479
iPhone 14 Pro Max 256GB was €1609
That's quite nice and surprising given other companies such as Sony and Microsoft increasing their console hardware prices in Europe but not the US.
I was expecting the same pricing and storage configurations as last year at the very best but a bump in the base level storage while keeping the price the same as last year that is better than I expected.
iPhone 15 Pro Max 256GB is €1479
iPhone 14 Pro Max 256GB was €1609
That's quite nice and surprising given other companies such as Sony and Microsoft increasing their console hardware prices in Europe but not the US.
I was expecting the same pricing and storage configurations as last year at the very best but a bump in the base level storage while keeping the price the same as last year that is better than I expected.
Think it’s basically for actual professional uses for recording video (iPhone’s often get used as small high-quality cameras that can be used in places that larger cameras cannot). If you record at 4k in ProRes you will run at (potentially a lot) over 1GB/min. Adding another TB is not going to be that big a deal. I assume the main limiting thing before was having a reliable way to transfer the data out rather than some desire to prevent users from doing it.
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Only for the 0.01% of users who want to do that.
Also, they kinda had to announce _something_ new this phone could do.
Also, they kinda had to announce _something_ new this phone could do.
A consumer stereo camera in a significant portion of the populations pocket is a big deal imo. Going to make the volume of VR content much higher.
From what I gather the distance between the left and right lens will be less than an inch. Technically it’s still stereo, but don’t get your hopes high.
They didn't say much about it but hopefully they can infer enough to do a good job. You can already do mildly ok fake depth maps from a single image. I also would like to know if this is going to be somehow locked down to Apple Vision or a format we could use in a Quest3 or other VR headset.
They have depth with the LIDAR sensor as well - so I wonder if that enables them to pull of some trick to make it more convincing.
It’s more about the difference in magnitude of the lenses. This also gives you depth information when combined.
a 360 camera , or at least the ability to take 360 photos easily would make a bigger difference
180 camera makes more sense at this stage. 360-degree cameras on a phone would be weird when recording with the phone in hand. It would be better on a tripod, but I think Apple is trying not to complicate it unless professionals want it.
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Related ongoing thread:
iPhone 15 and iPhone 15 Plus - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37485290
iPhone 15 and iPhone 15 Plus - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37485290
> The Pro lineup is built to last, combining the strength of titanium with the toughest back glass in a smartphone and the industry-leading Ceramic Shield on the front.
The back panel is made of glass. This is a user-hostile design choice. Apple tries to gas-light us, claiming that it's a "Durable Design". This is deception. I hope FTC sues them for false advertising.
A real durable design would have a durable back (metal, plastic, or composite) and a raised lip around the screen. I would buy such an iPhone immediately and gleefully use it without a case.
The back panel is made of glass. This is a user-hostile design choice. Apple tries to gas-light us, claiming that it's a "Durable Design". This is deception. I hope FTC sues them for false advertising.
A real durable design would have a durable back (metal, plastic, or composite) and a raised lip around the screen. I would buy such an iPhone immediately and gleefully use it without a case.
The market has spoken. Rugged phones don't sell. Or people have compensated by buying a case. It is very normal to see a phone with smashed front or rear glass (1), or a degraded battery. A worn out battery is often part of people's rationalization in buying an entirely new phone. At least on the operating system side Apple is ironically leading the industry. The remainder of the smartphone industry that's not Samsung or Apple churns out disposable products so it's a low bar to clear.
(1) https://www.theonion.com/new-iphone-geared-towards-college-a...
(1) https://www.theonion.com/new-iphone-geared-towards-college-a...
Given companies are allowed to advertise waterproof-ness and wholesale deny warranty claims when any water indicators inside the phone are triggered, I don’t think the FTC is going to do much
The iPhone is designed to be used with a case. That’s why they make no effort to remove the camera bump.
> The Pro lineup is built to last, [bunch of physical attributes]
Having hardware which lasts is good, but they also need to make sure the software lasts. A phone is hardware + software, both need to last for the phone to last.
I know Apple is much better at this than Android, but still, they could be even better. My iPhone X does everything I need, physically it's still in pristine condition (so well done to Apple for that), but they're going to drop software support soon. Meaning no security updates, and apps will eventually stop supporting the old OS and thus the phone.
Having hardware which lasts is good, but they also need to make sure the software lasts. A phone is hardware + software, both need to last for the phone to last.
I know Apple is much better at this than Android, but still, they could be even better. My iPhone X does everything I need, physically it's still in pristine condition (so well done to Apple for that), but they're going to drop software support soon. Meaning no security updates, and apps will eventually stop supporting the old OS and thus the phone.
It's a shame that the 8/X isn't getting a proper feature update, but you should still be fine in terms of security updates. Apple released 12.5.7 earlier this year which is compatible with the 5S — a phone that's now ten years old. Apple has consistently provided security updates for it each year since its release.
Ah I see, I didn't realise they went back that far. That's good to know, thanks!
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Security updates will continue, just not iOS 17.
Great that they finally include USB-C. I am waiting for
- Any browser engine allowed - 3rd party "app stores" allowed - Allowed to simulate iPhone without owning or having to use a Mac
before switching from Android
- Any browser engine allowed - 3rd party "app stores" allowed - Allowed to simulate iPhone without owning or having to use a Mac
before switching from Android
1 is going to hand the web over to Google and kill the open web
2 is going to happen eventually thanks to the EU
3 never going to happen
2 is going to happen eventually thanks to the EU
3 never going to happen
You underestimate the power of "defaults". Also one should question Apple why they don't ship Safari on Windows/Linux. They have all the resources available if they care. EU regulates and Apple is here to blame. Protecting their revenues (WebKit). It's only surprising it took this long to regulate. On the other hand US government is laughable at not doing any pro-consumer choices and getting bribes/sudden turns etc. EU here is leading here (protecting customers instead of companies)
#1, not if the EU does some action also against Google's monopoly, similar to how in the US Microsoft was almost split to 2 companies for the same reason
Safari used to have a Windows version but it was so underused Apple canned it.
The best part for me that wasn't mentioned, the slightly rounded corners!
I hate holding anything since iPhone 12 in my hands, the edges are sharp and cut into your fingers.
Every time I take iPhone X I'm just amazed how comfortable it is and what a step back was the iPhone 12 design.
I hate holding anything since iPhone 12 in my hands, the edges are sharp and cut into your fingers.
Every time I take iPhone X I'm just amazed how comfortable it is and what a step back was the iPhone 12 design.
On the contrary, I vastly prefer the 6/SE/13/14 design, as it doesn't rotate along the long axis as easily in my hand.
I was very happy when they abandoned the 10/11 design with the rounded edges.
I have very soft hands, and "cut into your fingers" seems pretty hyperbolic. The current 14 Pro edge design (typing this on one) seems perfectly adequate to me.
(The sharp points at the edges of the finger slot in the middle of the MBPs always surprised me with their pointyness, however. The last Intel MBP was particularly sharp, however the points have been softened a lot in M1/M2 land.)
I was very happy when they abandoned the 10/11 design with the rounded edges.
I have very soft hands, and "cut into your fingers" seems pretty hyperbolic. The current 14 Pro edge design (typing this on one) seems perfectly adequate to me.
(The sharp points at the edges of the finger slot in the middle of the MBPs always surprised me with their pointyness, however. The last Intel MBP was particularly sharp, however the points have been softened a lot in M1/M2 land.)
Visually I much prefer the squared off edges, but I agree. The 14 Pro is the first iPhone I’ve regulsrly used a case with because I just cannot keep hold of the damn thing—when the phone angles as I reach across the screen I guess the lack of surface area touching my hand means it sorta just pops out. I find it really bad ergonomically. Flat edges with rounded corners seems a nice middle ground.
What I really want is a Pro Mini. I bought a 12 mini because that year the hardware gap between Pro and not was very small. The battery sucked ass but it was a dream to hold.
What I really want is a Pro Mini. I bought a 12 mini because that year the hardware gap between Pro and not was very small. The battery sucked ass but it was a dream to hold.
I like the flat side as the phone doesn’t slip out of my hand so easily, but definitely agree that the slight curving will make it feel better!
The reduction in weight is a major feature - my iPhone 14 Pro routinely strains my hand.
When the 14 Pro came out I bought one day 1 to replace my 12 mini.
I figured the size would be an issue, and I definitely didn't like it as much as the 12 mini. But the worst part I didn't even foresee was the weight. It was SUPER uncomfortable to use one-handed, I was constantly terrified it would fall out of my hand. I ended up returning it and buying a 13 mini.
The switch to titanium is a good move. Even barring the weight, while the stainless steel is certainly eye-catching and looks great out of the box, as soon as you use the thing it's covered in smudges, and infamously is prone to getting covered in scratches over time.
I figured the size would be an issue, and I definitely didn't like it as much as the 12 mini. But the worst part I didn't even foresee was the weight. It was SUPER uncomfortable to use one-handed, I was constantly terrified it would fall out of my hand. I ended up returning it and buying a 13 mini.
The switch to titanium is a good move. Even barring the weight, while the stainless steel is certainly eye-catching and looks great out of the box, as soon as you use the thing it's covered in smudges, and infamously is prone to getting covered in scratches over time.
iPhone 14 Pro weight: 206g
iPhone 15 Pro weight: 188g
8.7%
iPhone 15 Pro weight: 188g
8.7%
For what it’s worth, the 11 Pro was also 188g
I’m interested to see what depth of field can be replicated with lenses so close together. 3d (spatial) videos is the one feature I would have bought a new phone for, but given it is not available day one I’m a bit skeptical that an unproven lense set up will replicate well to an unproven vr set up.
Assassin's Creed Mirage launching on iOS shows that Apple is taking gaming seriously. A large part of the presentation was talking about the new GPU and the newly developed shader architecture. It will be interesting to compare the numbers once the devices are available.
It'll be interesting sure, but porting struggles have never really been about the numbers. Porting to iPhone takes time because the API is starkly different from consoles or Linux/Windows systems. Apple won't publish your game unless it's using Metal, there's no way around it. Games like Tomb Raider and Resident Evil have been touted for the same purposes in the past, but they never signaled any major internal shifts.
I think if Ubisoft will see good adoption from the mobile gamers, it may very well be the push for them to consider porting their game library over to iOS. After all, the mobile market is pretty damn huge.
Hey, I thought Blizzard, Larian and Nightdive would change the gaming landscape on Mac/iPhone for years now. Despite having first-class ports of many titles, the value proposition of most devs porting to Metal still doesn't line up.
This is not the first Ubisoft, or even first Assassin's Creed game to get released on iPhone. I don't see any reason why this time will be different than the others.
This is not the first Ubisoft, or even first Assassin's Creed game to get released on iPhone. I don't see any reason why this time will be different than the others.
> Beginning September 18, iCloud+ will offer two new plans: 6TB for $29.99 (U.S.) per month and 12TB for $59.99 (U.S.) per month.
Finally. I mean, 2TB is enough for me for now, but I know people with 5 people in their Apple Family with the 2TB tier absolutely maxed out.
Finally. I mean, 2TB is enough for me for now, but I know people with 5 people in their Apple Family with the 2TB tier absolutely maxed out.
AV1 HW decoder on Apple A17 means it's also coming to M3 MacBooks. My only wish is that AV1 HW encoder will be added to M3 MB Pros. So far no reason for many people to upgrade from M1
The EU prices of iPhone make them luxury objects, there is barely any meaningful pricing difference between the cheapest iPhone 15 (950EUR) and iPhone 15 Pro (1200EUR).
> there is barely any meaningful pricing difference between the cheapest iPhone 15 (950EUR) and iPhone 15 Pro (1200EUR).
Out of interest, I picked a random car to compare with. Based on the figures made available on the website, the base model was $39,347. The fully-loaded model was $49,243. That's the same ~25% difference Apple is using here.
Whether or not it is meaningful, it does seem to be in the realm of being typical.
Out of interest, I picked a random car to compare with. Based on the figures made available on the website, the base model was $39,347. The fully-loaded model was $49,243. That's the same ~25% difference Apple is using here.
Whether or not it is meaningful, it does seem to be in the realm of being typical.
How does this compare to the prices of other phones which receive 6+ years of manufacturer software support?
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Hoping this inspires Android manufacturers to finally adopt the fantastical technological innovation of "another button".
Samsung used to provide this on their Galaxy phones. They called it the "Bixby" button and unfortunately for a while, only hacky solutions to remap it for general usage were available.
Seems like on the latest generations, they dropped this feature as well, so it's interesting to see Apple revive it.
The biggest problem with this "innovation" is going to be teaching my parents how to use it and that "pressing the button doesn't always put the phone in silent anymore"
Seems like on the latest generations, they dropped this feature as well, so it's interesting to see Apple revive it.
The biggest problem with this "innovation" is going to be teaching my parents how to use it and that "pressing the button doesn't always put the phone in silent anymore"
Oh good, 128GB base storage, for 48MP camera + 4k@60 Pro Res video.
Yea, but you have USB3 high speed, record pro-res directly onto, external storage.
So you can spend $100 on a 1TB external drive (rather than $100 on another 128gb of internal storage) and you're way better off. If you're use case is 4k60 ProRes, this makes WAY more sense than recording locally.
So you can spend $100 on a 1TB external drive (rather than $100 on another 128gb of internal storage) and you're way better off. If you're use case is 4k60 ProRes, this makes WAY more sense than recording locally.
They didn’t say “external storage”, they said “a Mac”. Could be a significant distinction
Hopefully they don't block full resolution ProRes recording like they did on the 13 series. The 128GB version of the 13 and iirc the 14 was only able to record 1080p60 ProRes, regardless of available space
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I'd imagine most people offload them to iCloud, and don't keep copies on the iPhone. At least that's what I do.
This really compliments the Apple Vision Pro! When they debuted the vision they demonstrated that it could also make content to be viewed on the vision, which was a disaster! It was clear there should be a dedicated device for recording. The iphone 15 pro is that!
I don't get the logic of removing the mute toggle switch. It is very convenient to put the phone in silent. Didn't have to open the phone. Plus it was easy to check if the phone was silent by just looking for the orange marker.
They should have first turned the volume buttons to action button. I dont use the volume button.
They should have first turned the volume buttons to action button. I dont use the volume button.
Not sure about iOS 17 and the 15Pro but the haptics are different in iOS 16 and the 14Pro when flicking the switch back and forth. Unmute I get not haptics and Mute gets a stern triple shake. If they maintain something like that you should still be able to no look it. In my opinion, I like the customizability.
No details on that USB3 external storage. Any specifics? Can I -for example- attach an USB3 NVMe enclosure (RTL9210B) and transfer (move) photos / videos from the internal storage?
That's one of the few remaining reasons for carrying around a laptop when going on vacations with family (to dump photos from the phones when they fill up).
That's one of the few remaining reasons for carrying around a laptop when going on vacations with family (to dump photos from the phones when they fill up).
TL;DR:
1. USB-C. Yay!
2. New colors. Apple repeatedly refers to the colors as "stunning," but they look like regular colors to me.
3. Incremental hardware and software improvements. Pretty much what you expect every year. (Yes, we're all spoiled.)
1. USB-C. Yay!
2. New colors. Apple repeatedly refers to the colors as "stunning," but they look like regular colors to me.
3. Incremental hardware and software improvements. Pretty much what you expect every year. (Yes, we're all spoiled.)
For the gpu: Really gonna need fps limiters. So many games run hot and are unplayable without them.
Low power mode helps but a cpu limiter like when jailbroken would be good.
Low power mode helps but a cpu limiter like when jailbroken would be good.
I missed the presentation but with talk of these new stereoscopic cameras did they mention anything about Apple Vision Pro? Ever since that keynote with the kind of dystopian example of wearing a headset during the kid's birthday, I assumed the future would be the next iPhone taking the "memories" (as I think they called them). Was that mentioned at all today?
edit: oh, neat, yeah I missed it at first but it's right in the linked press release:
> Coming later this year, iPhone 15 Pro will add a new dimension to video capture with the ability to record spatial video for Apple Vision Pro.
edit: oh, neat, yeah I missed it at first but it's right in the linked press release:
> Coming later this year, iPhone 15 Pro will add a new dimension to video capture with the ability to record spatial video for Apple Vision Pro.
What time on September 15th can you pre-order? I forgot what time I had to wake up early for my iPhone 14 Pro. I think it was 6am Eastern?
I haven't heard an official announcement, but in the past it has been 5am Pacific, so 8am Eastern.
8AM eastern. I recommend you go to store.apple.com and "pre-pre order" which you can do right now (pick phone, verify carrier). Then you just 'check out' on Friday.
The whole thing felt they were milking it to last 90min.
But the part where they compared their new GPU accelerated ray-tracing to be 4x faster than software ray-tracing was the most hilarious part. I thought software rendering was a thing that mostly stayed in the 90s, but apparently I was wrong enough that even deserved to be mentioned in a multi-million dollar Apple presentation.
New iPhone, better than the old one. OK cool.
But the part where they compared their new GPU accelerated ray-tracing to be 4x faster than software ray-tracing was the most hilarious part. I thought software rendering was a thing that mostly stayed in the 90s, but apparently I was wrong enough that even deserved to be mentioned in a multi-million dollar Apple presentation.
New iPhone, better than the old one. OK cool.
Ray tracing has been 100% software (as in, either entirely on the CPU or implemented in shader code or CUDA/OpenCL on the GPU) up until 2018, which is when the first hardware-accelerated ray tracing GPUs became widely available.
That's why ray-tracing in games was not a thing up until 2018.
The context is games, which is what they've shown on the presentation to sell us the new iPhone.
The context is games, which is what they've shown on the presentation to sell us the new iPhone.
I also thought that was odd, with the 8fps on the left. Like, what iOS game are people playing with software raytracing at 8fps?
You may be interested to know that Unreal Engine’s Nanite technology uses (mostly) software rasterisation.
Nanite isn't raytracing though, or even rendering. I think it's more like a pre-render thing to reduce polygon count.
Nanite has a large pre-render step, but it also changes the rendering quite significantly. (Which in some cases includes a software rasterizer running on the GPU)
This is a really good deep dive if you’re interested: https://youtu.be/eviSykqSUUw?si=Vaj8pngU2Bug5LJX
This is a really good deep dive if you’re interested: https://youtu.be/eviSykqSUUw?si=Vaj8pngU2Bug5LJX
Anybody know what Titanium color of the Pro devices match the Ultra watch?
Apple has a history of inconsistent colors between models for the same color names, so I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s no exact match.
No AV1 encode?
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They might later add VVC Video encoder instead.
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It's a phone. Does it really need AV1 encoding?
Does it record video?
If Apple is going to support AV1, it starts with decoding. Apple isn't going to give their phone the ability to record videos in a format that the desktop OS and the desktop computers don't even support.
Once AV1 decoding is present across the product line, I imagine the phones might get support for AV1 encoding, probably two generations down the line, possibly next generation. Still a fairly large if though, given that Apple is decently invested in h265.
Once AV1 decoding is present across the product line, I imagine the phones might get support for AV1 encoding, probably two generations down the line, possibly next generation. Still a fairly large if though, given that Apple is decently invested in h265.
They have too many choices already. Even if they do add an encoder at a later iteration, it will likely only be for video conferencing. Too small to care about really, given that those transistors can used for something else.
1 gram lighter!
206g -> 187g for the Pro
240g -> 221g for the Pro Max
240g -> 221g for the Pro Max
9% lighter Pro
8% lighter Pro Max
8% lighter Pro Max
I wish they would go back to having S years and just keep the outside the same.
There is barely anything different this time and an S year would have made sense.
There is barely anything different this time and an S year would have made sense.
1 mm smaller, rather
Ironically, this annoys me because I can't use any of my Apple 14 pro cases.
There’s nothing noteworthy here to upgrade to is there? Maybe save some carbon (god that woke video was cringeworthy) and wait for the iPhone 16?
That’s my thought at this point. I really want the usb c, but I can wait a year.
It just bugs me how they change sizes like this and cause even more unnecessary waste.
It just bugs me how they change sizes like this and cause even more unnecessary waste.
Yes it’s terrible, I’m on a 12 pro that is on its last legs so will upgrade this time. I have a quad lock case at the moment which seems even more wasteful somehow given how overpriced they are!
The thickness also increased by 0.4 mm.
Haven't watched it yet, but I bought a 14 Pro just two weeks ago (well aware of the imminent 15 on its way). I guess secretly I was hoping that the difference is not huge. ;)
USB-C support was the worst kept secret in the world, so I hope you were anticipating it when you made your purchase.
I'm assuming you got a really heavy discount anyway so don't feel bad.
The big standouts are camera enhancements and (significant) GPU enhancements for gaming.
The big standouts are camera enhancements and (significant) GPU enhancements for gaming.
Not a heavy one but a decent discount. So not too upset. I am sure some people somewhere bought without discount.
I bought a 13 mini just a few weeks ago. Pretty sure the salespeople were rolling their eyes. Might have been the last one left at the store.
I'm disappointed there's no 15 mini announced. Rather disappointing that the only phones that fit in a pocket these days are all Android - no choice left.
Any details about USB-C? I bet this USB-C implementation is not standard compliant in a typical Apple way.
Which Apple device has shipped with a non-standard USB implementation?
Quite a stretch and not exactly a standardization issue (more like if something useful is implemented/supported or not), but lack of DisplayPort MST in MacBooks had upset some folks.
More on point - the speculation about real fast charging requiring Apple-blessed circuitry is - AFAIK - still neither proven nor refuted.
More on point - the speculation about real fast charging requiring Apple-blessed circuitry is - AFAIK - still neither proven nor refuted.
> lack of DisplayPort MST in MacBooks had upset some folks
MST has serious drawbacks. Not supporting it could be for reasons of not wanting to deliver a subpar experience.
MST has serious drawbacks. Not supporting it could be for reasons of not wanting to deliver a subpar experience.
I’ve got a number of USB storage devices that work on my intel macs but none of my silicon macs. One was a brand associated with mac.
That could be because the devices themselves are not spec and the intel macs are more tolerant, but as a customer the result is the same: shit don’t work on m1.
That could be because the devices themselves are not spec and the intel macs are more tolerant, but as a customer the result is the same: shit don’t work on m1.
It charges via USB-C, it does USB 3 data if you have the Pro.
> Now you can connect USB‑C gear like thumb drives, fast external storage, 4K displays, and microphones. And you can charge Apple Watch or AirPods from your iPhone.9
> Charge up to 50% in around 30 minutes10 with the 20W USB‑C Power Adapter (sold separately).
Seems like totally bog standard USB-C, just like the rest of their devices.
> Now you can connect USB‑C gear like thumb drives, fast external storage, 4K displays, and microphones. And you can charge Apple Watch or AirPods from your iPhone.9
> Charge up to 50% in around 30 minutes10 with the 20W USB‑C Power Adapter (sold separately).
Seems like totally bog standard USB-C, just like the rest of their devices.
EU would have field day with that (if you were correct, which I bet you are not) considering they require standards-compliant USB-C by law.
You're at least partially correct since they require a MFI approved cable to reach USB 3 speeds. Otherwise you're limited to USB 2 speeds.
I can't find any reference to this on Apple's website. They simply they a USB3 cable is required to get USB3 speeds, which I assume they don't ship in the box.
Any source to this?
Because I think Alex Agius Saliba will have an unkind word to Apple if they try to pull that shit.
Because I think Alex Agius Saliba will have an unkind word to Apple if they try to pull that shit.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2023/05/06/apple-ip... (there were a number of articles around this time which are now buried by Google et.al.)
However, it does look like Apple may have walked this back post-rumor. I genuinely hope they did. We'll find out soon enough.
However, it does look like Apple may have walked this back post-rumor. I genuinely hope they did. We'll find out soon enough.
Looks like it wasn't segregated by MFI in the end, but by model. Pro gets 3.0, standard gets 2.0.
Whee.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37497199
Whee.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37497199
well, that is fully compliant
The goal of the EU legislation is to avoid people needing special chargers and cables per device.
The goal of the EU legislation is to avoid people needing special chargers and cables per device.
Still can't install uBlock Origin or any other firefox add-on? Deal-breaker. Sorry Apple, that's one more $1200 phone you're not selling me.
You can install uBlock Origin and other firefox/chrome add-ons on the Orion iOS browser[1].
[1] https://browser.kagi.com/faq.html#ublock
[1] https://browser.kagi.com/faq.html#ublock
That is good to know, thank you, but why must I use _an entirely different browser_ for this? (Rhetorical question, I know - 'because it's Apple and they hate anything not of their beautiful walled garden')
They made a point of saying that the GPU had been completely ground-up re-designed, and I assume they're intending to keep scaling that up over the next few iterations.
They didn't talk about it for very long, but that the phone is able to convincingly run AAA games, even at playable if not great frame-rates, is really impressive. This puts the iPhone up against devices like the Switch and Steam Deck for a lot of users. Granted, they don't have Nintendo's games, and they don't have Steam's massive back catalogue, but looking forward it does make a dedicated handheld gaming system harder to justify, or at least makes the phone easier to justify if you're not buying both.
It also makes me really interested to see where Apple is going with Apple TV and the Mac. With the game porting toolkit already announced (and the results people are already getting just using it directly to run Windows games), it seems like Apple really could eat at least some portion of the gaming market by already having a handheld (phone), console (Apple TV), and gaming PC (Mac) ready to go in the next few years.
I'm expecting the new M3 Macs next month to lean really heavily into discussing the GPU advances and (hopefully) announce a lot more support from big studios to bring more games to the Mac.