Amtrak Explorer(amtrakexplorer.com)
amtrakexplorer.com
Amtrak Explorer
https://amtrakexplorer.com/
247 comments
> I'm currently building a raspberry-pi based "train coming!" / "ding-a-ling!" machine for my son which scrapes the real-time location of trains from the above site.
"Galisteo" by Burl Ives
...
Looking out my door, about a quarter to four / I wave when the Chief goes by / and though it’s just a train, I never could explain / why a tear comes to my eye.
...
No need for an RPi scraper for me. I live in that village, and hear the (Southwest) Chief's whistle/horn in both directions. Long live the analog!
Glad to hear about your train-loving family. We need more!
"Galisteo" by Burl Ives
...
Looking out my door, about a quarter to four / I wave when the Chief goes by / and though it’s just a train, I never could explain / why a tear comes to my eye.
...
No need for an RPi scraper for me. I live in that village, and hear the (Southwest) Chief's whistle/horn in both directions. Long live the analog!
Glad to hear about your train-loving family. We need more!
> I live in that village [Galisteo], and hear the (Southwest) Chief's whistle/horn in both directions.
I hop on at Lamy, either to Raton or LAX, depending on the trip. If only there were still a stop in Folsom, I'd walk to family place up there...
Lamy is an interesting place to wait on the train; George R2 Martin (Game of Thrones author) sponsors a special excursion train that comes up there from Santa Fe. They do fun bits, wine tasting tours, mystery role-playing dinners, art shows. The train is painted like a huge dragon.
A strange juxtaposition with authentic tumbleweeds and abandoned adobe remnants of a whistle stop village that's faded away.
Lots to keep you entertained for the extra three hours it will take for the Amtrak train to actually arrive. They do crew change, cleaning, restocking food, and often address any operational issues with the trains at the Albuquerque station. Seems to be one of the few places where that's done, because Northbound quite often hours behind schedule at Lamy.
It's my favorite way to travel anyway.
I hop on at Lamy, either to Raton or LAX, depending on the trip. If only there were still a stop in Folsom, I'd walk to family place up there...
Lamy is an interesting place to wait on the train; George R2 Martin (Game of Thrones author) sponsors a special excursion train that comes up there from Santa Fe. They do fun bits, wine tasting tours, mystery role-playing dinners, art shows. The train is painted like a huge dragon.
A strange juxtaposition with authentic tumbleweeds and abandoned adobe remnants of a whistle stop village that's faded away.
Lots to keep you entertained for the extra three hours it will take for the Amtrak train to actually arrive. They do crew change, cleaning, restocking food, and often address any operational issues with the trains at the Albuquerque station. Seems to be one of the few places where that's done, because Northbound quite often hours behind schedule at Lamy.
It's my favorite way to travel anyway.
You know… I was gonna put this in my dads house (he lives near enough to the tracks to walk) and design it so that the little crossing guards went down with enough time to walk over to see the train (the very best part of “Gampas train house!”)… but I suspect a microphone tuned to the trains low rumble might be more reliable and work offline.
Consider the feature scheduled!
Consider the feature scheduled!
It’s amazing how far the train horn can be heard, if I’m outside I can hear that lonely whistle blow early enough to walk the six or so blocks to the tracks if I want.
That gave me full on goosebumps.
There’s something magical about certain machines that make some people emotional.
Concorde was another one for me.
Killed by bean counters, as so much is.
There’s something magical about certain machines that make some people emotional.
Concorde was another one for me.
Killed by bean counters, as so much is.
https://youtu.be/cYXEBcZpNQQ?si=n4G1gh-YJ_GMiQlB
And I can’t go without two of my favorites:
https://youtu.be/5eggYBVAYiI?si=xBY0ZGQbN-86caur
https://youtu.be/xp-b4Ce4Mf4?si=zRfjSlbXNrIVKPvL
And I can’t go without two of my favorites:
https://youtu.be/5eggYBVAYiI?si=xBY0ZGQbN-86caur
https://youtu.be/xp-b4Ce4Mf4?si=zRfjSlbXNrIVKPvL
Wow!! Just seen those now, that was superb.
Had no idea steam engines could move like that!!!
And in return I give you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvACffFXxrk
Had no idea steam engines could move like that!!!
And in return I give you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvACffFXxrk
> I just found the Amtrak "Train Watcher" https://www.amtrak.com/track-your-train.html a week ago.
Cool link, thanks! It would be awesome if Amtrak could have a webcam or two on board their trains so that you could ride along and enjoy the vistas.. (Yes, I know, connectivity, bandwidth, costs, something something... :-( )
Cool link, thanks! It would be awesome if Amtrak could have a webcam or two on board their trains so that you could ride along and enjoy the vistas.. (Yes, I know, connectivity, bandwidth, costs, something something... :-( )
There's a bunch of train video channels on YouTube (because, of course there are). I love throwing on something like [1] just as background while I'm working.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsVJ8PCV-0M
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsVJ8PCV-0M
> our 2 year old is obsessed with trains of any type,
It was just the local Caltrain commuter (and some freight trains) but I remember my 2yo commenting that we were so lucky to live close to a train crossing so we could hear the horns and the trains go by.
It was just the local Caltrain commuter (and some freight trains) but I remember my 2yo commenting that we were so lucky to live close to a train crossing so we could hear the horns and the trains go by.
Rail Rat has a data-first presentation of this data that I like quite a lot:
https://railrat.net/
I love Amtrak, and it seems to be getting more popular lately. I hope to see more funding and support for passenger rail in the U.S.'s future.
I've started commuting by Amtrak, as I'm lucky enough to have the flexibility to work around its limited schedule. My quality of life is so much higher now that I don't drive. Also every single Amtrak employee I've met so far has been super nice.
The website and app are trash. I was not able to buy a ticket on my desktop, I had to use the app. The app decides to reload all the time, sometimes losing my ticket if I don't have cell service. I have no idea what kind of APIs are available, but if anyone has an idea for fixing this please let me know.
I've started commuting by Amtrak, as I'm lucky enough to have the flexibility to work around its limited schedule. My quality of life is so much higher now that I don't drive. Also every single Amtrak employee I've met so far has been super nice.
The website and app are trash. I was not able to buy a ticket on my desktop, I had to use the app. The app decides to reload all the time, sometimes losing my ticket if I don't have cell service. I have no idea what kind of APIs are available, but if anyone has an idea for fixing this please let me know.
Amtrak is a nightmare. Their on time percentage is abysmal. https://www.amtrak.com/on-time-performance
I've taken 4 Amtrak trips in my life, 3 basically ruined the trip.
First, when I was a kid we took a train to Chicago from Michigan and for whatever reason we checked a bag. They lost the bag with my favorite stuffed animal in it and I remember spending most of that weekend crying.
Second, we tried going skiing in Whitefish Montana from Seattle and they made us take a bus to Spokane to "get the train back on schedule." We were something like 7 hours late getting to Spokane because of traffic and snow (not enough snow to mess up the train) and we missed a full day of skiing on our 2 day trip. (There'a a LOT more to that story that made it even more ridiculous.)
Third trip was from Seattle to Portland and it went fine.
Final trip was from Seattle to New Mexico. I had the time and figured it would be kinda cool to see the country by train. The first leg of the trip to LA was actually pretty fantastic, but shortly before arriving the second leg was canceled because one of their bridges burned down in a wildfire near Palm Springs. I realize that was a freak accident but they offered zero help and I had to scramble to find lodging and eventually a Greyhound bus to my destination.
I've taken 4 Amtrak trips in my life, 3 basically ruined the trip.
First, when I was a kid we took a train to Chicago from Michigan and for whatever reason we checked a bag. They lost the bag with my favorite stuffed animal in it and I remember spending most of that weekend crying.
Second, we tried going skiing in Whitefish Montana from Seattle and they made us take a bus to Spokane to "get the train back on schedule." We were something like 7 hours late getting to Spokane because of traffic and snow (not enough snow to mess up the train) and we missed a full day of skiing on our 2 day trip. (There'a a LOT more to that story that made it even more ridiculous.)
Third trip was from Seattle to Portland and it went fine.
Final trip was from Seattle to New Mexico. I had the time and figured it would be kinda cool to see the country by train. The first leg of the trip to LA was actually pretty fantastic, but shortly before arriving the second leg was canceled because one of their bridges burned down in a wildfire near Palm Springs. I realize that was a freak accident but they offered zero help and I had to scramble to find lodging and eventually a Greyhound bus to my destination.
> I've taken 4 Amtrak trips in my life
C'mon, that's not a big sample size for such sweeping conclusions. I've taken many trips, more than I can count. On-time hasn't been a problem for me. But they've become very expensive.
C'mon, that's not a big sample size for such sweeping conclusions. I've taken many trips, more than I can count. On-time hasn't been a problem for me. But they've become very expensive.
If you use/consume 4 of anything and 3 of those things are a bad experience, I think it's reasonable to have a bad opinion of said thing.
Imagine buying 4 Cokes in you life and 3 of them being flat. Most people would probably consider Coke a bad product at that point, even if the sample size _is_ small.
Or imagine going to a restaurant 4 times. and 3 of those times getting food poisoning. Most people would probably consider it a bad restaurant.
I don't even know if most people would even manage 4 visits after getting food poisoning twice, let alone thrice.
Imagine buying 4 Cokes in you life and 3 of them being flat. Most people would probably consider Coke a bad product at that point, even if the sample size _is_ small.
Or imagine going to a restaurant 4 times. and 3 of those times getting food poisoning. Most people would probably consider it a bad restaurant.
I don't even know if most people would even manage 4 visits after getting food poisoning twice, let alone thrice.
It's not reasonable because it's unsupported by the evidence.
I wouldn't be surprised if someone had bad feelings about it, but that's different than drawing conclusions about all of Amtrak everywhere.
I wouldn't be surprised if someone had bad feelings about it, but that's different than drawing conclusions about all of Amtrak everywhere.
>> it's unsupported by the evidence.
Freight train interference — a dispatching decision made by a freight railroad to delay Amtrak passengers so that freight trains can operate first — caused 1.1 million minutes (about 2 years) of delay in 2022. [1]
[1] also lists Percentage of On-Time Customers by Route – 2022 which clearly shows that it's abysmal.
See the report card [2] where they have put in 80% as the benchmark.
IIRC, I had also seen a full historical report across multiple years but can't find it now. We recently did a trip going from SFO to LAX to San Diego by Coast Starlight and the Surfliner. Thankfully I had read these reports and dropped the plan to do the Zephyr as it has only a 25% on time performance (in 2022). It would only be slightly better as 2022 reports state it has deteriorated further as compared to 2021.
The lesson we learn from looking at all this on time data and checking out some other forums was that when traveling by Amtrak, budget for delays, cancellations, re-reouting by bus and all the pain that comes with it.
We come from the UK and are train lovers, having done most of the train travel in UK and Europe, Amtrak has a lot to do to catch up.
[1] https://www.amtrak.com/about-amtrak/on-time-performance.html
[2] https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/p...
Freight train interference — a dispatching decision made by a freight railroad to delay Amtrak passengers so that freight trains can operate first — caused 1.1 million minutes (about 2 years) of delay in 2022. [1]
[1] also lists Percentage of On-Time Customers by Route – 2022 which clearly shows that it's abysmal.
See the report card [2] where they have put in 80% as the benchmark.
IIRC, I had also seen a full historical report across multiple years but can't find it now. We recently did a trip going from SFO to LAX to San Diego by Coast Starlight and the Surfliner. Thankfully I had read these reports and dropped the plan to do the Zephyr as it has only a 25% on time performance (in 2022). It would only be slightly better as 2022 reports state it has deteriorated further as compared to 2021.
The lesson we learn from looking at all this on time data and checking out some other forums was that when traveling by Amtrak, budget for delays, cancellations, re-reouting by bus and all the pain that comes with it.
We come from the UK and are train lovers, having done most of the train travel in UK and Europe, Amtrak has a lot to do to catch up.
[1] https://www.amtrak.com/about-amtrak/on-time-performance.html
[2] https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/p...
This site has historical data -- just use wildcards... and then write a scraper :)
https://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history.php
https://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history.php
Um. The evidence very much shows how much of a shitshow Amtrak is.
Have a look at Grand Junction station delays for the past week[1]. Seven out of eleven have delays of over thirty minutes. Three of those are an hour late. One of them is a five hour delay.
And in 2023 so far [2] it's 376 out of 524 that are at least 30 minutes late. 291 of those over an hour. 71 are over four hours late. 15 were eight hours late. And one was delayed by over 1000 minutes (16.75hr).
A lot of this is because Amtrak doesn't have propriety over the lanes and has to yield to cargo traffic (though I'm not familiar with the nuances).
[1] https://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history.php?t... [2] https://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history.php?t...
Have a look at Grand Junction station delays for the past week[1]. Seven out of eleven have delays of over thirty minutes. Three of those are an hour late. One of them is a five hour delay.
And in 2023 so far [2] it's 376 out of 524 that are at least 30 minutes late. 291 of those over an hour. 71 are over four hours late. 15 were eight hours late. And one was delayed by over 1000 minutes (16.75hr).
A lot of this is because Amtrak doesn't have propriety over the lanes and has to yield to cargo traffic (though I'm not familiar with the nuances).
[1] https://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history.php?t... [2] https://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history.php?t...
If you consider that Grand Junction is pretty much in the middle of a route from Emeryville, California to Chicago, which takes over two days, a delay of 30-60 minutes doesn't seem that huge anymore. Nevertheless, I guess Amtrak is only for people with plenty of time to spare - and the on-time performance won't improve as long as Amtrak trains are "second-class citizens" on freight companies' tracks.
Kinda missing the point by focusing on the 30-60 bracket there, friend.
You also need to consider the people who are on the train with delays. One of the sadder things I've seen is someone missing a post-midnight intercom announcement saying that all stops right before St Louis through Chicago would would be skipped (because delays), and they'd need to get on the next train. So when she inevitably didn't get off, she was forced to going all the way up to Chicago and had to get picked up by family and drive all the way back down to St. Louis.
Anywho.
You also need to consider the people who are on the train with delays. One of the sadder things I've seen is someone missing a post-midnight intercom announcement saying that all stops right before St Louis through Chicago would would be skipped (because delays), and they'd need to get on the next train. So when she inevitably didn't get off, she was forced to going all the way up to Chicago and had to get picked up by family and drive all the way back down to St. Louis.
Anywho.
I’ve also seen conductors do amazing things in service of customers, including radioing the train heading the other way and doing an unscheduled stop/meet to transfer a passenger who had missed their stop.
I feel he did it because he felt bad for not waking them up, but still.
If Amtrak wasn’t forbidden from competing with greyhound it’d be more reliable I feel, even if trains became busses a bit more often.
I feel he did it because he felt bad for not waking them up, but still.
If Amtrak wasn’t forbidden from competing with greyhound it’d be more reliable I feel, even if trains became busses a bit more often.
I've also been on the train during an unscheduled rendevous, at a station the northbound and southbound trains arrived out of order from their schedule, someone heading to a wedding got on the wrong train. It did seem pretty heroic to radio ahead and pause both trains to get the woman "back on track", shows that the conductors are in charge of their trains and the organization is still human.
Another legally imposed handicap is that they cannot compete with mail carriers - seems insane, the post offices used to be built on top of the terminals for good reason (adjacent to Chicago Union Station and NY Penn Station at least)
Another legally imposed handicap is that they cannot compete with mail carriers - seems insane, the post offices used to be built on top of the terminals for good reason (adjacent to Chicago Union Station and NY Penn Station at least)
They can compete in one case - the transfer of human remains. Go trains?
Amtrak has legal priority. In practice this doesn’t mean much.
The legal means to enforce this was with the DOJ, which for Amtrak’s existence has had bigger fish to fry. Amtrak was granted the ability to sue freight carriers for enforcement in 2019, the first lawsuit is making its way through the legal process and Amtrak wants to establish it as case law for this legal priority.
The legal means to enforce this was with the DOJ, which for Amtrak’s existence has had bigger fish to fry. Amtrak was granted the ability to sue freight carriers for enforcement in 2019, the first lawsuit is making its way through the legal process and Amtrak wants to establish it as case law for this legal priority.
Well that's a wild complex relationship I had no idea existed. Pretty fucked up.
What's the court # for that case? Are they explicit in their filings that they seek to change the case law?
What's the court # for that case? Are they explicit in their filings that they seek to change the case law?
I'm not sure if this is the same issue/case OP mentions. https://www.freightwaves.com/news/stb-will-investigate-amtra...
> It's not reasonable because it's unsupported by the evidence.
I guess you missed the link I posted above. (It also seems to link to a slightly different page than yesterday.) The very best Amtrak line is only on time 70% of the time.
The majority of them are below 50% on time, some dramatically below.
https://www.amtrak.com/about-amtrak/on-time-performance.html
I guess you missed the link I posted above. (It also seems to link to a slightly different page than yesterday.) The very best Amtrak line is only on time 70% of the time.
The majority of them are below 50% on time, some dramatically below.
https://www.amtrak.com/about-amtrak/on-time-performance.html
> C'mon, that's not a big sample size for such sweeping conclusions.
Sleuth the monthly Host Railroad Reports here[1], direct from the cow's mouth. The company sets an aspirational 900 minutes delay per 10k train miles target metric and their monthly reports are lit up in breach like a Christmas tree year round across the country.
[1] https://www.amtrak.com/about-amtrak/reports-documents.html
Sleuth the monthly Host Railroad Reports here[1], direct from the cow's mouth. The company sets an aspirational 900 minutes delay per 10k train miles target metric and their monthly reports are lit up in breach like a Christmas tree year round across the country.
[1] https://www.amtrak.com/about-amtrak/reports-documents.html
I’ve ridden long distance a few times and if I (not necessarily the train, mind you) end up at my destination station within the quarter of the day it was scheduled, I count it as a win.
Pro tip - fly OUT to your vacation, and take the train back.
Then the worst case you miss work and oh so sad cry cry.
Pro tip - fly OUT to your vacation, and take the train back.
Then the worst case you miss work and oh so sad cry cry.
> Third trip was from Seattle to Portland and it went fine.
I did the other direction. It took over 4 hours, because the train had to go 20 mph due to flooding elsewhere.
On the other hand, Boston -> NYC and NYC -> DC went fine.
If you like trains, then take Amtrak for that. Not because you expect a great trip.
I did the other direction. It took over 4 hours, because the train had to go 20 mph due to flooding elsewhere.
On the other hand, Boston -> NYC and NYC -> DC went fine.
If you like trains, then take Amtrak for that. Not because you expect a great trip.
Amtrak owns about 3/4 of the tracks between Boston and DC, so those will be their most reliable. That’s what I use it for the most. From my experience, that’s also more expensive than other trips, but I haven’t done an extensive comparison.
Elsewhere, on tracks that are owned by others, especially commercial companies, Amtrak may not get priority, so things get dicier.
Elsewhere, on tracks that are owned by others, especially commercial companies, Amtrak may not get priority, so things get dicier.
it's probably unacceptable for Amtrak to just say "hey, we can't give good service on this route, and it's unprofitable anyway, so we're ending it."
Congress would then say, "well, then, we're ending your subsidies."
It would be an interesting exercise to see if they could be profitable, albeit smaller.
Congress would then say, "well, then, we're ending your subsidies."
It would be an interesting exercise to see if they could be profitable, albeit smaller.
If Amtrak were a normal business they’d probably run the Northeast Corridor route and just shut everything else down.
NEC, Surfliner, maybe a few others. All the long distance routes save the auto train would be cancelled leaving only the commuter trains.
If it has sleeper cars, it loses money.
However Amtrak serves a portion of the population that are in areas not serviced by much else and I’m perfectly fine with subsidizing that outright. But that may be because choo choo go choo.
If it has sleeper cars, it loses money.
However Amtrak serves a portion of the population that are in areas not serviced by much else and I’m perfectly fine with subsidizing that outright. But that may be because choo choo go choo.
Yeah, I think you & ghaff have the right idea. But even Reagan didn't touch this one. Much political pain, not much gain.
> Amtrak is a nightmare.
It depends on the route. Long haul trains like the ones you describe are a dubious choice. I've done that twice, and that was enough.
I've also used Amtrak to commute on the Northeast corridor literally hundreds (if not thousands) of times. In that scenario, I'd be hard pressed to choose anything else. It's vastly more convenient and flexible than the alternatives.
It depends on the route. Long haul trains like the ones you describe are a dubious choice. I've done that twice, and that was enough.
I've also used Amtrak to commute on the Northeast corridor literally hundreds (if not thousands) of times. In that scenario, I'd be hard pressed to choose anything else. It's vastly more convenient and flexible than the alternatives.
I think that Amtrak is severely challenged by being a second-class citizen of the rails and at the whims and mercy of freight traffic.
There's ways to address that but we don't have the collective political will to do so.
There's ways to address that but we don't have the collective political will to do so.
I think the on-time-ness might depend on the route. I've done the NYC<->Boston trip a lot and it's on time within a couple minutes about 75-80% of the time and on time within 10-20 minutes most of the rest of the time. I've done NYC<->DC fewer times but had roughly the same experience on that stretch.
I've done the NYC-Boston trip once. The Boston end was underwhelming to put it politely. Back Bay station was just nasty. Even the Wikipedia pictures comment on the haze and air pollution at the platforms. Getting a Charlie card took a few tries across a few stations.
Acela? Acela was fine but it's both expensive (presumably because of the demand) and a lot slower than it ought to be. That entire stretch of Metro North(?) tracks through Connecticut? There's no good reason the track is in such poor shape and no good reason to limit Acela to a snail's pace.
OTOH Acela still seems to be pretty popular, so perhaps Amtrak can afford to let it rot for a bit. Hopefully not for too long.
Acela? Acela was fine but it's both expensive (presumably because of the demand) and a lot slower than it ought to be. That entire stretch of Metro North(?) tracks through Connecticut? There's no good reason the track is in such poor shape and no good reason to limit Acela to a snail's pace.
OTOH Acela still seems to be pretty popular, so perhaps Amtrak can afford to let it rot for a bit. Hopefully not for too long.
The alternative to Acela is flying so that’s how the pricing is set. Or take the Regional which is what I usually do with my own money. Or drive and driving into Manhattan is awful b
It sounds like you were on the accursed coast starlate. Back in the day it was routinely 6-12 hours late - so much so that I relied on that fact when booking tickets (no way did I want to get up at 5 AM to catch the Sacramento to San Luis Obispo train).
I thought it had improved since 20 years ago :-\
I thought it had improved since 20 years ago :-\
It’s a single track with no other routes available, and corn trains seem to always fall off the tracks.
It’s a beautiful ride but on time it is not.
Pro tip: bring a pack of cigs even if you’ve never ever smoked in your life. If the train stops in the middle of nowhere because a corn train decided to leave the imposed restrictions of the rails, you will be let off the train, but only if you’re a tobacco addict. You can also sometimes order delivery to a stuck train.
It’s a beautiful ride but on time it is not.
Pro tip: bring a pack of cigs even if you’ve never ever smoked in your life. If the train stops in the middle of nowhere because a corn train decided to leave the imposed restrictions of the rails, you will be let off the train, but only if you’re a tobacco addict. You can also sometimes order delivery to a stuck train.
There are really two Amtraks.
There is the Northeast Corridor, including the Acela, and then there is everything else.
I mean this fairly literally: Amtrak both owns are operates the NEC vs. the situation for the rest of the country. They even operate different Twitter/X accounts for service alerts between NEC and "everything else".
The Northeast Corridor operates something like a typical middle-distance, reasonable frequency, reasonable timeliness rail system would do in a European country. The rest of Amtrak is for rail fans only.
There is the Northeast Corridor, including the Acela, and then there is everything else.
I mean this fairly literally: Amtrak both owns are operates the NEC vs. the situation for the rest of the country. They even operate different Twitter/X accounts for service alerts between NEC and "everything else".
The Northeast Corridor operates something like a typical middle-distance, reasonable frequency, reasonable timeliness rail system would do in a European country. The rest of Amtrak is for rail fans only.
There are a few other trains that are NEC in quality. The Pacific Surfliner for example is relatively reliably on time (used to ride it every weekend). The key is the commuter trains often run on rails that are relatively freight-free.
Yep, took Amtrack from Chicago to Las Vegas and was over 24 hours late arriving and luggage was another day late after that. At least they did send it to the hotel. Never again.
Do you love trains or Amtrak?
Because Amtrak isn't all that great from what I remember, there are far better carriers but maybe not in the US.
Because Amtrak isn't all that great from what I remember, there are far better carriers but maybe not in the US.
Not the OP, but I love trains and the idea of Amtrak, while the reality actually makes me pretty sad. It says something pretty bad about the US when we seem to actively choose to make our train service embarrassingly terrible even in places where trains make a ton of sense and absolutely could work (e.g. the US northeast).
Don't get me wrong, I'm also a private pilot and a car guy...I love our train alternatives too and flying and driving are things the US does a better job of. But leaving out trains as a realistic transportation option feels like a weird blind spot.
Don't get me wrong, I'm also a private pilot and a car guy...I love our train alternatives too and flying and driving are things the US does a better job of. But leaving out trains as a realistic transportation option feels like a weird blind spot.
Amtrak absolutely blows. Always prefer the regional provider ticket if you can. But then so does eurail (as perceived by the end user, I’m sure some independent providers are similarly fine).
Small regional trains in general are decent, but they’re no match for planes across any long distance.
I just earlier today was trying to get a Eurail pass for some traveling around europe over the next couple weeks. The minimum you pay is $211 for 4 days of use across a month, but every train worth using has a “seat reservation fee” on top of that. I literally couldn’t find a more expensive way to do that route I had planned.
Small regional trains in general are decent, but they’re no match for planes across any long distance.
I just earlier today was trying to get a Eurail pass for some traveling around europe over the next couple weeks. The minimum you pay is $211 for 4 days of use across a month, but every train worth using has a “seat reservation fee” on top of that. I literally couldn’t find a more expensive way to do that route I had planned.
I've had the exact opposite experience with long distance Amtrak travel. Nice sized seats which are much more comfortable, better views, no getting groped by a TSA agent. Other than the time it takes to travel being much shorter, planes aren't even in the same league as Amtrak.
> time it takes to travel being much shorter
And that depends on how far you travel, of course:
Fixed overhead for planes is around 2.5 hours (depending on airport, etc.) for parking, travel to terminal, security, time to gate, 'deplaning', time from gate to ride/car. For Amtrak, that's about 40 minutes IME.
Marginal time cost for distance is, of course, far less on a plane.
And that depends on how far you travel, of course:
Fixed overhead for planes is around 2.5 hours (depending on airport, etc.) for parking, travel to terminal, security, time to gate, 'deplaning', time from gate to ride/car. For Amtrak, that's about 40 minutes IME.
Marginal time cost for distance is, of course, far less on a plane.
If I want to get somewhere slowly I’ll just drive. Even taking my gas guzzling 2004 V8 truck at CA gas prices is far cheaper than Amtrak, and my dog can come. And that’s with just me, for 2+ people there’s no contest whatsoever.
>no getting groped by a TSA agent
Don't worry, they're working on remedying that.
Don't worry, they're working on remedying that.
I know. :(
Both, and I like that Amtrak is semi-public. I think it's the right system, if only the federal government would choose to protect / support it. Amtrak is bad because it is not allowed to succeed.
I used to work for a boss who was a train fanatic and executive leadership consultant for Amtrak.
His stance was that the government should not give a single dime to Amtrak in it's current configuration.
Apparently leadership is thoroughly toxic and only cares about two things: adding more stops and getting more tax dollars. Things like service quality, reliability, cost competitiveness, or even ridership numbers have any consideration.
His stance was that the government should not give a single dime to Amtrak in it's current configuration.
Apparently leadership is thoroughly toxic and only cares about two things: adding more stops and getting more tax dollars. Things like service quality, reliability, cost competitiveness, or even ridership numbers have any consideration.
Adding stops is directly tied to tax dollars. If you’re a representative of TinyTown, ND and you get Amtrak to add a stop, you’ve won reelection for life.
I have seen stores with hours like “8-5, plus an hour around whenever the train shows up”.
I have seen stores with hours like “8-5, plus an hour around whenever the train shows up”.
Personal pet project for my son who loves seeing trains: I'm trying to get a system set up to auto-rotate through live webcams when the trains are most likely to show up through their live location status. https://train.api.connelly.casa/
You could fetch them all and use a quick classifier to detect train/ no train to rank them in order of the likelihood of seeing a train?
Is that your work? Very nice! Since I discovered it on HN a few days back, I spent quite a bit of time enjoying the show. :-)
This is a beautiful visualization, I still wish we invested more into this infrastructure.
Taking the train seems to double the duration of my trip over driving. Not having to drive is not a bad trade off though, if I have the time to relax.
Taking the train seems to double the duration of my trip over driving. Not having to drive is not a bad trade off though, if I have the time to relax.
I take the Capitol Limited(Chicago <-> DC) most of the time when I go back to home.
Pros:
+ Comfort. You basically get a first class seat with cafeteria access. You can also purchase a whole room, but is less affordable than a plane ticket if you're traveling alone.
+ Regularity. The train leaves at the same time everyday both from DC and Chicago.
+ It reaches parts of the country not easily accessed by an Airport. If you need to visit someone in middle of nowhere USA, Amtrak might just be a better option.
+ Price. Book it in advance and you'll be saving ~$200 in airfare.
+ No TSA to check your luggage, some trains allow you to bring your bike, and there's always plenty overhead space.
+ Easy access to outlets for charging devices.
Cons:
+ Long! Chicago to DC takes 17 hours. Chicago to San Francisco can take two days. SW Pennsylvania is snaking route that feels like forever. It's really a question of how much you value your time.
+ No WIFI on most trains, so bring a book if you cannot scrum up a hotspot.
Pros:
+ Comfort. You basically get a first class seat with cafeteria access. You can also purchase a whole room, but is less affordable than a plane ticket if you're traveling alone.
+ Regularity. The train leaves at the same time everyday both from DC and Chicago.
+ It reaches parts of the country not easily accessed by an Airport. If you need to visit someone in middle of nowhere USA, Amtrak might just be a better option.
+ Price. Book it in advance and you'll be saving ~$200 in airfare.
+ No TSA to check your luggage, some trains allow you to bring your bike, and there's always plenty overhead space.
+ Easy access to outlets for charging devices.
Cons:
+ Long! Chicago to DC takes 17 hours. Chicago to San Francisco can take two days. SW Pennsylvania is snaking route that feels like forever. It's really a question of how much you value your time.
+ No WIFI on most trains, so bring a book if you cannot scrum up a hotspot.
[deleted]
The time it takes isn't that bad. It's a relaxed and more comfortable experience. You are experiencing parts of the us you normally wouldn't see.
17 hours is fairly quick. But the timing is fantastic. Amtrak leaves after work in Chicago and arrives at hotel check-in time in DC the next day
17 hours is fairly quick. But the timing is fantastic. Amtrak leaves after work in Chicago and arrives at hotel check-in time in DC the next day
Quick? That's 1100km in 17h. 65km/h average. Regular, non-high speed should be able to do max 160-200 km/h, achieving average speed - including stops - over 130km/h, which is 2x faster.
It has a lot of stops, also theres issues with track speed limits. Additionally, it's running on freight rail, not passenger rail. So theres no hope of hitting 130km/h. (80mph in freedom units) On top of that our cars are grandfathered in and can't be replaced at the moment.
>It has a lot of stops, also theres issues with track speed limits.
Outside of major cities, it's generally a thing where you pour in money and faster track speeds come out.
>Additionally, it's running on freight rail, not passenger rail.
In many countries, there are no such distinctions outside of HSR which has it's own requirements - it's all mixed use. In Poland freight trains use the same 160-200km/h tracks as passenger railway, and move aside to let faster trains go through. Also they use tracks more when there are pretty much 0 passenger trains, like in the middle of the night.
>On top of that our cars are grandfathered in and can't be replaced at the moment.
I completely do not understand that part. Your railway cars can't hit 160km/h?
Outside of major cities, it's generally a thing where you pour in money and faster track speeds come out.
>Additionally, it's running on freight rail, not passenger rail.
In many countries, there are no such distinctions outside of HSR which has it's own requirements - it's all mixed use. In Poland freight trains use the same 160-200km/h tracks as passenger railway, and move aside to let faster trains go through. Also they use tracks more when there are pretty much 0 passenger trains, like in the middle of the night.
>On top of that our cars are grandfathered in and can't be replaced at the moment.
I completely do not understand that part. Your railway cars can't hit 160km/h?
The problem is the freight railways own the track and amtrak doesn't. Legally amtrak has right of way over the freight trains but the freight companies routinely flout this and cause delays as the law is unenforced. Amtrak keeps track of these incidents which they publish on their site here: https://www.amtrak.com/on-time-performance
I guess that's a politics issue, the freight companies can chuck money at lobbying to make sure they don't have to give way.
Hopefully with some decent lines appearing in the US, Brightline and California HSR in the future people will start to experience better rail and this stuff will get more focus.
Hopefully with some decent lines appearing in the US, Brightline and California HSR in the future people will start to experience better rail and this stuff will get more focus.
Amtrak trains can hit 80-90 mph, even the big ugly beasts. Some are rated to the lowest of high speed rail, but the track has to be updated with positive train control (PTC) to go that fast in the USA, and freight railroads have no need or desire to install that.
People from Europe don’t quite realize just how much freight the US moves by rail. It’s absolutely batshit.
> U.S. freight movements will rise from around 19.3 billion tons in 2020
People from Europe don’t quite realize just how much freight the US moves by rail. It’s absolutely batshit.
> U.S. freight movements will rise from around 19.3 billion tons in 2020
Outside the Acela corridor is there a passenger train that achieves that in the US? Maybe the new Brightline. I've ridden the Amtrak Cascades quite a bit between Portland and Seattle. It's a scheduled 3.5 hour ride that usually takes closer to 4 hours. Driving takes 3 hours if you're lucky usually closer to 3.5, although I had a 5 hour return trip by car from Seattle one time when I left at 4pm on a Friday.
Point is, Cascades is one of the better services outside the NE corridor and it still tops out at only 75mph (120km/h). The average trip speed is closer to 50mph (80km/h).
We have a long way to go to achieve anything resembling European levels of service. Japanese levels feel like an impossibility.
Point is, Cascades is one of the better services outside the NE corridor and it still tops out at only 75mph (120km/h). The average trip speed is closer to 50mph (80km/h).
We have a long way to go to achieve anything resembling European levels of service. Japanese levels feel like an impossibility.
Sleeper cars are nice
I used to take the Amtrak Acela from Boston to NYC a few times a year for business travel and it was very enjoyable. I always looked forward to the ride, which is absolutely not something I would ever say about driving or flying these days. Comfortable, scenic, quiet, possible to work (or just relax and watch a movie) in your seat, reasonable food and drink available in the dining car. Step off the train and you're in the heart of the city.
That said it would be much tougher to justify if work wasn't footing the bill. A single round trip is up around $500 per person unless you are willing to leave at the crack of dawn. Doing this regularly, or with a family, would get prohibitively expensive for most people. I definitely wish rail travel was more viable and accessible in the US, it's got so much going for it.
That said it would be much tougher to justify if work wasn't footing the bill. A single round trip is up around $500 per person unless you are willing to leave at the crack of dawn. Doing this regularly, or with a family, would get prohibitively expensive for most people. I definitely wish rail travel was more viable and accessible in the US, it's got so much going for it.
I agree with most of your post, but just out of curiosity: how far in advance were you making your NYC<->BOS bookings? I've done the NYC<->WAS Acela dozens of times in the last decade and NYC<->BOS maybe a dozen times, and my roundtrips are typically $250 if I book around a month out.
To be honest my job changed during the pandemic so I have not made the trip in several years. Before making my post I went on the Amtrak website and priced out a trip in mid October. It was about $225 each way before tax etc. If you were willing to get on the 6am train it was a few bucks cheaper. I'm happy to concede that you could get better deals booking further out etc, I didn't spend time checking.
Hell, I'd love to be wrong. Because again, I enjoy traveling by rail. If I somehow accidentally priced the literal worst case, that's good to know.
Hell, I'd love to be wrong. Because again, I enjoy traveling by rail. If I somehow accidentally priced the literal worst case, that's good to know.
I was looking at NYC<->BOS for the beginning of November, and was shocked to see $20 each way available if you're willing to get to the station at 6am.
500 insane when bus is 30
I’ve been on a few busses where $500 to get off would have been a discount.
top front of megabus has been good to me. but now i have an airport in short walking distance so i take that
It is worth remembering that traveling by train has essentially zero overhead aside from the trip time. You arrive anytime before the train leaves, you get on the train, you get off the train, you don't have to think about considerations such as parking.
The problem in the US though is that once you get to your destination you are probably in a city dependent on cars because of such poor walkability and public transport, so now you have to rent a car as well.
Looking at travel from Austin to SF, taking a train is a longer duration trip and costs more.
One way on Oct 20th, Kayak has a flight for $119 and Wanderu has a train trip for $662 that is 3 days and 8 hours in duration.
If I could take my car on this train it might be worth it, from a cost and logistics standpoint train pretty much always loses.
I say this as someone who grew up enjoying the metro in dc and ny and use rail and ferry's when overseas.
Until infrastructure, subsidies and other externalities are addressed train travel will not be competitive, I have far more hope for level 3 self driving cars than I do for walkable cities and train travel parity.
Looking at travel from Austin to SF, taking a train is a longer duration trip and costs more.
One way on Oct 20th, Kayak has a flight for $119 and Wanderu has a train trip for $662 that is 3 days and 8 hours in duration.
If I could take my car on this train it might be worth it, from a cost and logistics standpoint train pretty much always loses.
I say this as someone who grew up enjoying the metro in dc and ny and use rail and ferry's when overseas.
Until infrastructure, subsidies and other externalities are addressed train travel will not be competitive, I have far more hope for level 3 self driving cars than I do for walkable cities and train travel parity.
> ... you are probably in a city dependent on cars because of such poor walkability and public transport [ .... ] If I could take my car on this train it might be worth it ...
Take your bike!
Take your bike!
Yeah so I'm not going to take my 2 year old and 1 year old and all associated baggage to the hotel on my bike.
Give it a couple of years and you can put them on a Tern GSD or similar.
(Don’t know if Amtrak would carry that. You can just about get away with taking them on UK trains.)
(Don’t know if Amtrak would carry that. You can just about get away with taking them on UK trains.)
Would you try to do that on public transit, if it was better?
Europe here, and yes, that's what people do.
France here. I do take my bike everywhere (RER, TER, TGV… I've never had a car and rented <10x in my life, at 37 y-o). But it's getting difficult to find/book a place in most fast trains, especially between Paris and Loire Valley as there are too few racks available and biking is becoming more popular. I wish all major train stations had 24/7 bike renting service, including for bikepacking.
I am actually aware of that. I was trying to discern whether or not the person I was replying to is actually criticizing public transit infrastructure in US cities or has just accepted that you need a car (easy to understand why that might be, even if it is not necessarily true).
My kids could travel on public transit easily when it’s a good day.
There have been numerous times when I’ve been very glad that I had a vehicle to load them all into to contain the current detonations occuring.
There have been numerous times when I’ve been very glad that I had a vehicle to load them all into to contain the current detonations occuring.
I have no objection to using a train, if it's actually point-to-point.
(but like, actually point to point. not, get to downtown and walk another 1.5 miles or wait 45 minutes for a bus transfer).
(but like, actually point to point. not, get to downtown and walk another 1.5 miles or wait 45 minutes for a bus transfer).
For routes where the bike area is first come first serve, how common is it for them to run out of space?
I’ve never seen it be a problem the few times I’ve noticed, but the conductors also bend the rules (hopefully not the bikes!) to make it work.
But (outside of the NEC) you do have to worry about 10+ hour delays (the most extreme delay I had an interaction with was being delayed by 2 hours because yesterday's train was in front of us and delayed by about 24 hours.
If you’ve ridden any long distance trains you’ll die on the rails eventually where they just give up, put everyone in a bus, and you go to the other direction train which they just turn around.
> Taking the train seems to double the duration of my trip over driving.
Part of this is that there's zero enforcement of the theoretical legal authority that Amtrak trains have over freight transit. Everything ends up slow and delayed almost everywhere because of incredibly predictable issues with passenger trains stuck behind much slower freight trains.
Part of this is that there's zero enforcement of the theoretical legal authority that Amtrak trains have over freight transit. Everything ends up slow and delayed almost everywhere because of incredibly predictable issues with passenger trains stuck behind much slower freight trains.
The only real way to enforce this would be to forbid freight trains that are longer than the longest siding within 30/60 miles.
If it were just a matter of time being longer I would do it more often. However, it is also way more expensive when traveling with two or more people.
Would you pay higher taxes for it?
I would. We could tax everyone like $20 a year and basically double federal Amtrak grants.
Or we could reallocate existing money, maybe stop subsiding people to grow corn to make gas and spend that money on improving railroads. Or buy one fewer F-35 every year or something. Lots of options, we don't spend very much on Amtrak right now.
Or we could reallocate existing money, maybe stop subsiding people to grow corn to make gas and spend that money on improving railroads. Or buy one fewer F-35 every year or something. Lots of options, we don't spend very much on Amtrak right now.
The subsidy is about $2b, or $7 per person or $15 per household.
Some of that subsidy also indirectly goes to the freight railroads.
Some of that subsidy also indirectly goes to the freight railroads.
Are these all the railway tracks in the US or just the ones Amtrak operate with?
For comparison, I found this map of European rails: https://www.eurorailcampaignuk.org/railway-map-of-europe/eur...
Seems the least dense (in terms of railway) European countries still have better coverage than the most dense US state.
For comparison, I found this map of European rails: https://www.eurorailcampaignuk.org/railway-map-of-europe/eur...
Seems the least dense (in terms of railway) European countries still have better coverage than the most dense US state.
Amtrak is the big interstate rail company. There are many small railroad that art more densely packed around a metro area or within one small state. For instance, you can get from Newark, DE to Springfield, MA entirely on regional trains: SEPTA from Newark, DE through Philadelphia, PA to Trenton, NJ; NJ Transit from Trenton to Penn Station in New York City; NYC subway from Penn Station to Grand Central Terminal (if you have a heavy luggage, otherwise just walk), Metro North from GCT to New Haven, CT; Hartford Line CT Rail from New Haven, CT to Springfield, MA.
Each leg of that trip on a commuter train probably had 5 to 25 stops in between stations I mentioned, and each of those rail systems branches out in various directions to serve the commuters of that area getting into the cities I mention. Amtrak also runs about the same route with way fewer stops.
The US used to be more rail dense. It still has the longest total railroad of any country in the world at 220k KM, but that's down from a peak of 408k KM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_tran... (a fair bit over one light-second, kinda cool).
Each leg of that trip on a commuter train probably had 5 to 25 stops in between stations I mentioned, and each of those rail systems branches out in various directions to serve the commuters of that area getting into the cities I mention. Amtrak also runs about the same route with way fewer stops.
The US used to be more rail dense. It still has the longest total railroad of any country in the world at 220k KM, but that's down from a peak of 408k KM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_tran... (a fair bit over one light-second, kinda cool).
> Amtrak is the big interstate rail company.
This is true only if you consider passenger rail. In terms of freight rail, the US has 6: Canadian Pacific (which recently acquired the 7th), Canadian National, Union Pacific, BNSF, CSX, and Norfolk Southern. Note that the smallest of these has more track than all but ~13 other countries, and the largest would be #4.
This is true only if you consider passenger rail. In terms of freight rail, the US has 6: Canadian Pacific (which recently acquired the 7th), Canadian National, Union Pacific, BNSF, CSX, and Norfolk Southern. Note that the smallest of these has more track than all but ~13 other countries, and the largest would be #4.
Wikipedia might need an update. It‘s giving largely different numbers in different languages:
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_L%C3%A4nder_nach_E...
EU seems to have a longer railnet, bit US net is also longer in german wiki. Density ist nearly twice in EU.
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_L%C3%A4nder_nach_E...
EU seems to have a longer railnet, bit US net is also longer in german wiki. Density ist nearly twice in EU.
US railroads are so large and old that they literally don’t know how many miles of track they have.
And some tracks are usable but unused until a customer asks for a train.
And some records show tracks where no rail has been for forty years.
Fun fact - some of those rail2trail trails are still considered railroads because the track can be readded at any time.
And some tracks are usable but unused until a customer asks for a train.
And some records show tracks where no rail has been for forty years.
Fun fact - some of those rail2trail trails are still considered railroads because the track can be readded at any time.
Unfortunately except for the NEC (northeast corridor), Amtrak operates on rail lines owned by freight train operators. Technically the Amtrak passenger train has priority over freight, but one problem is that when one train needs to bypass another, the freight trains are often too long to fit on the siding, so the Amtrak train must wait instead.
> the freight trains are often too long to fit on the siding
This is a deliberate part of "precision scheduled railroading" which is neither precision nor scheduled.
Management and investors believe railroads are in long-term decline so capital investments to improve capacity and/or speed are not done. The most important metric is the "operating ratio". If serving a new customer that adds $200m to profit would decrease the ratio by 2% the railroad will not serve the customer.
So as part of this the railroad wants to minimize crew time. On a given section of track with passing sidings the railroad could move more cars by having three train crews going back and forth, creating conists just long enough to fit in the sidings. They could also extend the sidings to allow longer trains.
Instead they reduce to two or even one crew and make longer consists. This often means one crew parks their train and leaves it for an entire day because they won't be able to pass the other train in the opposite direction. The crew has to take a taxi back home and leaves the train idle. Once the other train passes they or another crew comes back and resumes. It now takes 3 days to move the same number of cars it would have taken two before but over those three days the railroad only paid for 1.5 crew days instead of paying 3 crews over two days. Labor costs are reduced, operating ratio looks better, job done.
I'll also point out that US railroad companies hate carrying passengers. They spent decades begging permission to discontinue passenger service, cooking books, refusing to sell tickets, etc so they could discontinue their passenger services. For example what is Caltrain used to run down to LA and was very profitable right up until the day they terminated service.
edit: When management and investors punish railroads for trying to be a better railroad I don't know how you fix that brain damage. We seem stuck in an extremely sub-optimal local maxima.
This is a deliberate part of "precision scheduled railroading" which is neither precision nor scheduled.
Management and investors believe railroads are in long-term decline so capital investments to improve capacity and/or speed are not done. The most important metric is the "operating ratio". If serving a new customer that adds $200m to profit would decrease the ratio by 2% the railroad will not serve the customer.
So as part of this the railroad wants to minimize crew time. On a given section of track with passing sidings the railroad could move more cars by having three train crews going back and forth, creating conists just long enough to fit in the sidings. They could also extend the sidings to allow longer trains.
Instead they reduce to two or even one crew and make longer consists. This often means one crew parks their train and leaves it for an entire day because they won't be able to pass the other train in the opposite direction. The crew has to take a taxi back home and leaves the train idle. Once the other train passes they or another crew comes back and resumes. It now takes 3 days to move the same number of cars it would have taken two before but over those three days the railroad only paid for 1.5 crew days instead of paying 3 crews over two days. Labor costs are reduced, operating ratio looks better, job done.
I'll also point out that US railroad companies hate carrying passengers. They spent decades begging permission to discontinue passenger service, cooking books, refusing to sell tickets, etc so they could discontinue their passenger services. For example what is Caltrain used to run down to LA and was very profitable right up until the day they terminated service.
edit: When management and investors punish railroads for trying to be a better railroad I don't know how you fix that brain damage. We seem stuck in an extremely sub-optimal local maxima.
Isn't that just typical private equity investment, in every industry? Drain every ounce of blood from the body then leave the carcass.
Modern capitalism is definitely short-sighted but the railroads are uniquely bad in that regard. They could increase their business and keep marketshare away from road trucking without capital investment but they prioritize operating ratio instead. Every year there are fewer commercial facilities served by rail and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that railroads are in terminal decline.
For sake of argument here are made-up numbers: If you can, by paying some additional labor, with no capex, increase profit by 30% even though operating ratio may slightly decrease while also protecting your business from competitors that is clearly something in the interests of shareholders. If the railroads were run like this I could explain their behavior as standard short-sightedness where they refuse to make the capex investments required to grow their business in the future.
None of this gets into passenger rail service. I don't know that the US market would sustain anything like the numbers railroads did in their heyday but there are absolutely plenty of rail routes that would could have a sustainable and profitable business. With some minor capex they could even do high-speed passenger service to very high profit. Modern 150mph+ train service is stupid cheap and wildly profitable. At that speed you don't have many stops and the travel times are so short your crew labor costs are low. If you already own right-of-way your single most expensive and time-consuming blocker is a non-issue. So far Brightline and CA HSR are seemingly the only ones interested.
For sake of argument here are made-up numbers: If you can, by paying some additional labor, with no capex, increase profit by 30% even though operating ratio may slightly decrease while also protecting your business from competitors that is clearly something in the interests of shareholders. If the railroads were run like this I could explain their behavior as standard short-sightedness where they refuse to make the capex investments required to grow their business in the future.
None of this gets into passenger rail service. I don't know that the US market would sustain anything like the numbers railroads did in their heyday but there are absolutely plenty of rail routes that would could have a sustainable and profitable business. With some minor capex they could even do high-speed passenger service to very high profit. Modern 150mph+ train service is stupid cheap and wildly profitable. At that speed you don't have many stops and the travel times are so short your crew labor costs are low. If you already own right-of-way your single most expensive and time-consuming blocker is a non-issue. So far Brightline and CA HSR are seemingly the only ones interested.
There's a segment in Michigan that was purchased by MDOT for passenger rail (Amtrak) use. There have been some improvements made for "high-speed" service. Not sure how common this is elsewhere.
Virginia bought a segment of track from CSX back in 2021 to update and improve availability of passenger service up towards DC: https://www.npr.org/local/305/2021/03/31/983044429/virginia-...
It’s moderately common. The Pacific Surfliner runs on transit track in the LOSSAN corridor and it’s being improved.
These are a minute fraction of the railroad tracks in the US.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Class1rr... shows the "Class I" railroads; just the big eight. There's a whole expansive set of Class II/III tracks. 160,000 miles total.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Class1rr... shows the "Class I" railroads; just the big eight. There's a whole expansive set of Class II/III tracks. 160,000 miles total.
Thanks! I thought something looked amiss and seems a lot was.
> Are these all the railway tracks in the US or just the ones Amtrak operate with?
The latter.
Openrailwaymap.org has a better picture of all the track in the US, although it seems that the US has a very different ratio of main/branch track (which you can't see until you zoom in) than Europe does.
The latter.
Openrailwaymap.org has a better picture of all the track in the US, although it seems that the US has a very different ratio of main/branch track (which you can't see until you zoom in) than Europe does.
That is just Amtrak and apparently just long distance Amtrak.
Some commuter rail is operated by Amtrak but won’t appear I think.
If you have money you can get a private passenger train almost anywhere there are tracks.
Some commuter rail is operated by Amtrak but won’t appear I think.
If you have money you can get a private passenger train almost anywhere there are tracks.
> For comparison, I found this map of European rails
It also doesn't show all the rail connections, e.g. between Leizig and Chemnitz there is a direct hourly connection, albeit a notoriously poor one (only single track, non-electrified) that's not on the map.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig%E2%80%93Geithain_railw...
It also doesn't show all the rail connections, e.g. between Leizig and Chemnitz there is a direct hourly connection, albeit a notoriously poor one (only single track, non-electrified) that's not on the map.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig%E2%80%93Geithain_railw...
Most of the lines are used for freight.
https://www.aar.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/US-Freight-Ra...
https://www.aar.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/US-Freight-Ra...
That map of European rail lines
is woefully inaccurate. It probably shows only 5% of rail lines in London for example, if that.
I love the idea of Amtrak - or more correctly, passenger trains.
The idea of traveling across the country and actually getting to see it is amazing. Spending a couple days on the train is maximum leisure to me.
But... every time I consider doing it again, it's just too crazy expensive. Sometimes double or triple that of similar air travel.
The idea of traveling across the country and actually getting to see it is amazing. Spending a couple days on the train is maximum leisure to me.
But... every time I consider doing it again, it's just too crazy expensive. Sometimes double or triple that of similar air travel.
There's a new kid on the block (as of last week), not Amtrak, not on the map, in Florida (oh dear), not really high speed, but fingers crossed!
Brightline Orlando<->Miami (occasionally at 125mph)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu18ZqWgQM4
Brightline Orlando<->Miami (occasionally at 125mph)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu18ZqWgQM4
That is so heartening to hear there is new rail service opening in our time. It’s seemed impossibly difficult to even get another train on the schedule with Amtrak. The only train that I can take departs at 2:45am and I’m been told by anyone who will hear me that it hasn’t changed in 80+ years and never will. I kinda love that it’s in Florida; if it went forward there then anything is possible.
I don't understand the need to make embarrassed noises around "Florida". I am a New Yorker who gets to visit Miami with regularity including during COVID and from my obviously limited perspective, it's a well run place, much more so than NY to use an obvious example.
To make this more objective - you meet tons of folks in Florida who moved from another state recently and never the other way.
To make this more objective - you meet tons of folks in Florida who moved from another state recently and never the other way.
I’m not sure how you can say FL is more “well ran” than NY when, specifically NYC vs Miami, is an order of magnitude (or more) difficult to run.
Also it’s patently obvious why people choose to move to FL - has something to do with the sun. They don’t call it the “Sunshine State” for nothing.
Also it’s patently obvious why people choose to move to FL - has something to do with the sun. They don’t call it the “Sunshine State” for nothing.
You are logical but maybe don't have the context. Historically, old people moved to Florida while young people moved north for careers etc. Currently, you can meet a lot of young professionals / families who have moved to FL. This is new.
I am with you on the weather, but on the flip side it's VERY hot in the summer.
As for NYC vs Miami... there's a palpatable shift. It used to be "what does Miami have for me besides sunshine" and now it's more like "why would anyone stay in NYC?" The former question has more and more good answers now while the later fewer and fewer.
And again I say this as a new Yorker who hasn't moved yet so it's not like I am just talking my own book here.
I am with you on the weather, but on the flip side it's VERY hot in the summer.
As for NYC vs Miami... there's a palpatable shift. It used to be "what does Miami have for me besides sunshine" and now it's more like "why would anyone stay in NYC?" The former question has more and more good answers now while the later fewer and fewer.
And again I say this as a new Yorker who hasn't moved yet so it's not like I am just talking my own book here.
As someone who lived in New York for a long time (and calls myself a New Yorker but natives may take offense) but moved to Chicago recently, I find myself missing so many of the NYC amenities (subway/buses, entertainment, food, culture, etc) that Chicago has mirages of.
I can't see how Miami (also having spent a decent amount of time there), aside from the weather, could provide anything close to either NYC or Chicago. You have to squint even harder since Miami has none of the public transit, entertainment or other amenities I would expect from a large urban center. Plus, if you lean left on the political spectrum, you inherit the unpalatable politics that come with FL.
At least in Chicago I can buy a house within a ten minute walk to a beach and not break the bank. Something that, unless you're in Rockaway/LI or are ballin out on Star Island/Key Biscayne/Bal Harbor/etc wont get.
If you find people asking "why would anyone stay in NYC", they had no idea why they were there to begin with.
I can't see how Miami (also having spent a decent amount of time there), aside from the weather, could provide anything close to either NYC or Chicago. You have to squint even harder since Miami has none of the public transit, entertainment or other amenities I would expect from a large urban center. Plus, if you lean left on the political spectrum, you inherit the unpalatable politics that come with FL.
At least in Chicago I can buy a house within a ten minute walk to a beach and not break the bank. Something that, unless you're in Rockaway/LI or are ballin out on Star Island/Key Biscayne/Bal Harbor/etc wont get.
If you find people asking "why would anyone stay in NYC", they had no idea why they were there to begin with.
I don't think Miami competes on public transport. It competes on higher quality of life. You can ask for example where will my children be safer etc
And if you did ask "where will my children be safer?" the statistical answer would be NYC by a factor of 2 across nearly every crime category [1].
[1] https://www.nextburb.com/us/compare-places/new-york-ny-vs-mi...
[1] https://www.nextburb.com/us/compare-places/new-york-ny-vs-mi...
Odd that the specific example you chose is better in NYC than Miami. The news orgs constantly harping on urban crime rarely mention Miami, for some reason. Maybe because Miami has a Republican Governor, state legislature, and mayor while NYC has a Democrat in each of those roles?
Yes, that is my impression. The odd thing is that the endless repetition disinformation machine works so well, 'centrist' Dems pick it up. NYC suburbs voted Republican because of the 'crime' in the city.
What in Miami compares to NYC, other than winter weather (I much prefer NYC winters to Miami summers!)? Food? Culture? Energy? Transit? Crime (much lower in NYC, iirc)? Schools (NYU, Columbia, etc. etc.)? Arts? Music? Parks? Architecture? Dynamism? Workforce talent?
I understand NYC isn't for everyone, and I don't criticize people for living elsewhere, but it's hard to compare ....
I understand NYC isn't for everyone, and I don't criticize people for living elsewhere, but it's hard to compare ....
Also, no income tax, which suits retirees well, and low housing costs.
The income tax thing is perplexing to me - you need to pay somehow, no? Without a graduated income tax, probably you are paying more tax overall (unless you are in the top 1%).
The income tax thing is perplexing to me - you need to pay somehow, no? Without a graduated income tax, probably you are paying more tax overall (unless you are in the top 1%).
sales tax. Highly non-progressive. But make it high enough and it brings in enough dollars, at least for a low-government-services state.
That's what I mean - you are paying tax one way or the other, and probably more unless you are rich.
and yet, if NY politicians took over FL, they'd run it into the ground in six months (or less).
Your 2nd paragraph is 30 years out of date. Pre-retirement people don't move there unless there are jobs, education for their kids, and safety.
Your 2nd paragraph is 30 years out of date. Pre-retirement people don't move there unless there are jobs, education for their kids, and safety.
It's easy to say these things, but specifically, with some factual basis: In what ways is FL better run than NY?
Given that you're asking for a lot of work, which you'll then either dismiss or argue about endlessly, I can't see any point in giving you facts.
Instead, we could just rely on the in-migration and out-migration figures. I have to assume those people with personal experience know something.
Instead, we could just rely on the in-migration and out-migration figures. I have to assume those people with personal experience know something.
> Given that you're asking for a lot of work, which you'll then either dismiss or argue about endlessly, I can't see any point in giving you facts.
It sorta looks like you are the one dismissing and arguing, alas. Have a lovely day.
It sorta looks like you are the one dismissing and arguing, alas. Have a lovely day.
and so we come to the same resolution, except no one had to gather a lot of links. More efficient this way.
By the way, NY does have the best theater scene in the US, but London's is much better.
By the way, NY does have the best theater scene in the US, but London's is much better.
The user you were arguing with is running multiple unsubstantiated fights in the comments.
Thanks, yet another reason not to spend time collecting facts.
New York has yet to be run into the ground, so I think it would be ok.
Your talking point about NYC being some sort of hellscape is at least 30 years out of date.
Your talking point about NYC being some sort of hellscape is at least 30 years out of date.
no, actually, all those migrants sleeping in the lobby of the Roosevelt Hotel might differ.
Briefly it wasn't a hellscape, but y'all made it one again. Congratulations.
Briefly it wasn't a hellscape, but y'all made it one again. Congratulations.
>Briefly it wasn't a hellscape, but y'all made it one again. Congratulations.
Glad you feel that way. Please don't come here.
Glad you feel that way. Please don't come here.
You mean all the migrants shipped from FL out of spite by a governor using human trafficking for political gain, lovely.
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You won’t meet people in Florida who went “the other way”, because they are now living in another state.
Yes correct. I am not meeting them in NY and other places...
In case you aren't familiar with this topic, the map about 30% down this page shows which cities and gaining and losing population. https://eig.org/city-population-2023/
In case you aren't familiar with this topic, the map about 30% down this page shows which cities and gaining and losing population. https://eig.org/city-population-2023/
In one recent bit of research I saw, FL's net population grew quickly, but they actually lost a lot too (and gained more, of course).
or they moved on to some other plane of existence, as many who move to Florida late in life tend to do.
Well, "Florida man" is an archetype in American culture for a reason (although some people say that reason is Florida's sunshine reporting laws).
I'd also argue a place where the state surgeon general posts anti-vax memes and the governor has made his national bones by gutting educational programs and rights isn't "well-run" by most definitions.
Would love to hear more about what you meant by "well-run."
I'd also argue a place where the state surgeon general posts anti-vax memes and the governor has made his national bones by gutting educational programs and rights isn't "well-run" by most definitions.
Would love to hear more about what you meant by "well-run."
I can't help it but I keep trying to drag the map around. I get that's not how this map is implemented but I've been trained by years of tiled map apps now...
The one the conductor I met used is https://asm.transitdocs.com/, it shows where the train should be (if it updated its position), and delays and such. Where the Amtrak data is always a point in time.
Unfortunately, Amtrak management has only expressed at best lukewarm support for long distance trains[0]. The California Zephyr in particular (Chicago <-> San Francisco) often runs with delays of 10 or more hours (two years ago, I was on a train scheduled to arrive in downtown Chicago at 2 PM and didn't get me there until after midnight -- Union Station is not exactly a bustling part of town at that hour.
[0]https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/01/us/amtrak-coronavirus-pro...
[0]https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/01/us/amtrak-coronavirus-pro...
The delays aren't really Amtrak's fault.
Freight companies manage the tracks and pay lip service to Amtrak's regulated priority. Until 2019 that enforcement was up to the DOJ, who didn't really do anything, but Amtrak was granted the ability to sue that year. https://enotrans.org/article/durbin-introduces-bill-to-allow...
Amtrak is currently trying to sue their host railroads but these suits take time. https://seekingalpha.com/article/4598703-for-all-rail-freigh...
Freight companies manage the tracks and pay lip service to Amtrak's regulated priority. Until 2019 that enforcement was up to the DOJ, who didn't really do anything, but Amtrak was granted the ability to sue that year. https://enotrans.org/article/durbin-introduces-bill-to-allow...
Amtrak is currently trying to sue their host railroads but these suits take time. https://seekingalpha.com/article/4598703-for-all-rail-freigh...
The long distance trains (even things like the Late For Sure Limited) are an anachronism that really doesn’t have support from anyone but railfans and the small numbers who use it.
But they’re incredibly fun to ride but you need to not have to be anywhere anytime.
But they’re incredibly fun to ride but you need to not have to be anywhere anytime.
Why is a competitive carbon-neutral system of moving people between cities up to 1000 km apart an anachronism?
Because service hasn't been competitive for decades, for various reasons, mostly because a single set of tracks doesn't work well for freight and passengers. Afaik, there's no place with large rail coverage where there's one rail network for freight and one rail network for passengers; a lot of the world has rail for passengers and lacks significant rail for freight, the US has rail for freight and lacks significant rail for passengers. The two use cases don't mix well.
If you want to get somewhere in the US in a reasonable amount of time at a reasonable cost, your options are usually roads (bus or personal vehicle) and commercial air travel. There's a couple corridors where boat or train actually work, but not many.
If you want to get somewhere in the US in a reasonable amount of time at a reasonable cost, your options are usually roads (bus or personal vehicle) and commercial air travel. There's a couple corridors where boat or train actually work, but not many.
Russia (and some other ex-USSR states) has a large amount of passenger rail (long distance, commuter and the new thing that is daytime quick inter-regional trains) and also a large amount of freight as well.
It helps that most of main lines are electrified twin tracks.
With regards for competitiveness, once it's in it becomes vital infrastructure that nobody asks questions about. Like nobody asks "are the USA interstates competitive". They're there so that country as a whole remains competitive.
It helps that most of main lines are electrified twin tracks.
With regards for competitiveness, once it's in it becomes vital infrastructure that nobody asks questions about. Like nobody asks "are the USA interstates competitive". They're there so that country as a whole remains competitive.
China has both.
Transcon rail will never be a thing but most people live in areas close by. The Midwest is roughly the size of France with similar population levels; and the upper limit of high speed rail travel is thought to be about five hours on the train, which is compatible with NYC to Chicago, or Chicago to Atlanta, or NYC to Atlanta, not to mention all the shorter trips in between.
Transcon rail will never be a thing but most people live in areas close by. The Midwest is roughly the size of France with similar population levels; and the upper limit of high speed rail travel is thought to be about five hours on the train, which is compatible with NYC to Chicago, or Chicago to Atlanta, or NYC to Atlanta, not to mention all the shorter trips in between.
Even more than 5 hours - I've taken the Paris to Milan and Paris to Barcelona trains multiple times (6:30-7h), and both are relatively frequent, quite full, and competitive with air travel due to a number of factors even if they're slightly slower (for Paris-Milan depending on departure point and airport on both ends, you're looking at 30-60 mins per direction, plus being 2 hours early at the airport, plus the time to get from the gate to the train station to get out of the airport, plus 1h30 flight and you're looking at 5-6h for the plane vs 7h for the train):
* vastly more comfortable, with more space and amenities
* nice views
* single style of hassle (get to the train, sit down, enjoy; with a plane you get to the terminal, pass through security, then wait, then go in a plane in heavily restricted mode, then you can move/do stuff after take-off, then again you go in restricted mode, then you wait for taxi to finish, then you get to the gate, then you walk towards the exits, wait for luggage, etc.)
* vastly more comfortable, with more space and amenities
* nice views
* single style of hassle (get to the train, sit down, enjoy; with a plane you get to the terminal, pass through security, then wait, then go in a plane in heavily restricted mode, then you can move/do stuff after take-off, then again you go in restricted mode, then you wait for taxi to finish, then you get to the gate, then you walk towards the exits, wait for luggage, etc.)
Those "shorter routes" are where things could shine, even if you don't go high-speed a train from MSP to CHI through Milwaukee would see some use.
The long distance west coast trains are a lot longer than 1000km, though. The Empire Builder from Chicago to Seattle is 3600km.
Not the best option for those, then. Amtrak seems to be in "excursion mode" where they would promote routes that are way too long but scenic, instead of aiming to join many mid-population proximate cities and make sure passengers regularly get there on schedule.
Long routes have their uses, but the bread and butter of any popular system should be the trains which leave in the evening and arrive the next morning. You do not lose a day and you do not have to pay for a hotel.
Long routes have their uses, but the bread and butter of any popular system should be the trains which leave in the evening and arrive the next morning. You do not lose a day and you do not have to pay for a hotel.
The problem is that Amtrak has two conflicting dual mandates:
* make a “profit”
* run essential 3km+ long distance services. These often serve rural areas without parallel Interstate routes
And has never been given the appropriate amount of money to do both at the same time.
* make a “profit”
* run essential 3km+ long distance services. These often serve rural areas without parallel Interstate routes
And has never been given the appropriate amount of money to do both at the same time.
Having these routes are no problem if you add five times as much pragmatic routes.
On almost every city map in the US you can see a railway crossing it, usually in the downtown behind a large mall that should also double as a rail station if you ask me.
On almost every city map in the US you can see a railway crossing it, usually in the downtown behind a large mall that should also double as a rail station if you ask me.
I’m not even entire sure that all cost included that long distance Amtrak trains are lower carbon than other options.
For comparison, here is Europe’s rail network with high speed rail (≥200kph) in color and other rail (<200kph) in gray:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:High_Speed_Railroad_...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:High_Speed_Railroad_...
This is only a map of the primary connecting railways, find all other rail here: https://www.openrailwaymap.org/
Comparing this to the Amtrak map side-by-side, Amtrak looks like some kids project started last year.
Most of the railways lines are used for freight.
https://www.aar.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/US-Freight-Ra...
https://www.aar.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/US-Freight-Ra...
European one barely scratches the surface, as it shows three lines in the whole Netherlands, which is not exactly true. And then China probably builds as much in a year and it's all high-speed.
> European one barely scratches the surface, as it shows three lines in the whole Netherlands, which is not exactly true.
Check https://www.openrailwaymap.org/ for a complete overview.
Check https://www.openrailwaymap.org/ for a complete overview.
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What a delightful website to see as I sit here on the capitol corridor to Sacramento.
I love Amtrak. I love trains. People say the US has bad public transit, and they're not wrong, but I love that I can get from my front door in the Netherlands to downtown Sac via SFO without setting foot in a car. Ironically I think it's more convenient to get to Oakland Airport from Sacramento than SMF.
The Netherlands has great trains but the beer is better on this one.
I love Amtrak. I love trains. People say the US has bad public transit, and they're not wrong, but I love that I can get from my front door in the Netherlands to downtown Sac via SFO without setting foot in a car. Ironically I think it's more convenient to get to Oakland Airport from Sacramento than SMF.
The Netherlands has great trains but the beer is better on this one.
Looking at that ridership chart, I'm amazed that they even run lines like the Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, and Texas Eagle. They must be losing tens of millions of dollars a year on those lines, money which could be spent on upgrading lines like the Northeast Regional and the Pacific Surfliner.
Edit: the Vermonter and Ethan Allen express have even less ridership but are shorter, I wonder how much money those lose.
Edit: the Vermonter and Ethan Allen express have even less ridership but are shorter, I wonder how much money those lose.
It's a kind of interesting chicken and egg situation.
The Northeast Corridor has at least hourly service through out the day, 'high-speed' (for america) trains, and lots of newish comfortable equipment, it's arguably the most civil way to get between NYC/DC/Boston.
A lot of the rest of the lines have once-per-day service, that runs on old equipment along freight lines. If you want to ride the Empire Builder from Fargo to Minneapolis, your only option is to get up at 2 o'clock in the morning to catch the one train of the day, and if that train had to wait for a freight train (which has priority) along it's previous 2 day journey from Seattle, it wouldn't be unusual for it be delayed until 3 or 5am.
Since the US doesn't invest in passenger rail outside the NEC, it becomes less and less viable for anyone to actually use it.
The Northeast Corridor has at least hourly service through out the day, 'high-speed' (for america) trains, and lots of newish comfortable equipment, it's arguably the most civil way to get between NYC/DC/Boston.
A lot of the rest of the lines have once-per-day service, that runs on old equipment along freight lines. If you want to ride the Empire Builder from Fargo to Minneapolis, your only option is to get up at 2 o'clock in the morning to catch the one train of the day, and if that train had to wait for a freight train (which has priority) along it's previous 2 day journey from Seattle, it wouldn't be unusual for it be delayed until 3 or 5am.
Since the US doesn't invest in passenger rail outside the NEC, it becomes less and less viable for anyone to actually use it.
The key feature of the NEC is that the cities are large and close together. This is true almost nowhere else in the country.
It's true in the Pacific Northwest, the Midwest, Texas, Florida, California. Rail is still mostly shit over medium distances there, although finally there are concrete efforts being made in California, Texas and Florida to fix that.
Fair, though if we invested in high speed rail a lot more cities would be within 4-5 hours of each other (and have the added advantage that the train would be consistently be faster than driving).
Ridership numbers isn't the whole story. For example, the Empire Builder only runs one train per day each direction, which puts a serious limit on the total ridership that's even possible.
Anecdotally, I've used the Empire Builder for two trips this year, and both times every train was completely booked (on a weekday, no less). There is demand for these trains, which I suspect would be even higher if Amtrak ran faster, more frequent, and more consistently.
Anecdotally, I've used the Empire Builder for two trips this year, and both times every train was completely booked (on a weekday, no less). There is demand for these trains, which I suspect would be even higher if Amtrak ran faster, more frequent, and more consistently.
The Empire Builder is actually kind of a weird one. It is both an important interurban between Chicago and Minneapolis (and possible as far as Fargo) as well as between Seattle and Spokane (and Portland and Spokane), but also a very popular tourist route.
The fact that it is serving both these purposes is kind of a determent to both. It runs to infrequently (and at weird hours) to serve as a nice interurban, and it gets too overbooked to serve a tourist route. To fix this the state of Washington (and Minnesota) need to operate more frequent interurbans that only services the end portions of the route (like 4 trains a day at least), and then Amtrak could operate the whole Empire builder in a more sane manner.
The fact that it is serving both these purposes is kind of a determent to both. It runs to infrequently (and at weird hours) to serve as a nice interurban, and it gets too overbooked to serve a tourist route. To fix this the state of Washington (and Minnesota) need to operate more frequent interurbans that only services the end portions of the route (like 4 trains a day at least), and then Amtrak could operate the whole Empire builder in a more sane manner.
Those two services are subsidized by state governments- Vermont for both, plus AIUI Connecticut for the Vermonter and New York for the Ethan Allen Express.
This also means that there are very cheap fares on those trains within Vermont, and I've sometimes noticed that it's actually cheaper to buy a ticket from DC to a station in Vermont than to buy one to New Haven.
This also means that there are very cheap fares on those trains within Vermont, and I've sometimes noticed that it's actually cheaper to buy a ticket from DC to a station in Vermont than to buy one to New Haven.
Like many other US Government programs, service is provided in unprofitable states and rural areas as the representatives from those areas demand it.
I'm on an Amtrak now and just saw this on the front page of Hacker News lol
Fun fact: It used to be that every freight line with a post office contract (so all of them), had to hang a few passenger cars on the train. So back in the day the US passenger rail network covered pretty much every medium size and larger town in the country. Naturally of course the railroad execs complained that this was going to bankrupt them and the nation's economy would collapse unless the rule was removed, so it was. A remnant remains though. If you're rich enough to own your own passenger car they still have to take you at some kind of standard rate. Although I don't know the details, because I don't have a Pullman.
That's cool. Definitely never occurred to me that there are whole states in the contiguous-48 without Amtrak at all (South Dakota, Wyoming). And then more that are "just barely" (Idaho, Tennessee, Kentucky).
To be frank, a large portion of the US West is utterly devoid of population. The largest city in SD is ~300k in MSA, and the largest city in WY is ~100k. Trying to make a route to Sioux Falls, SD pretty much means skipping both Minneapolis (3.7M) and Des Moines (700k), while going to Cheyenne, WY means skipping Denver (~3M).
The largest cities not served by Amtrak are Phoenix (although it is indirectly served via Maricopa), San Francisco (though indirectly served via Oakland), Las Vegas, Columbus, Tulsa, Honolulu, and oh look we're out of 1M+ MSAs.
The largest cities not served by Amtrak are Phoenix (although it is indirectly served via Maricopa), San Francisco (though indirectly served via Oakland), Las Vegas, Columbus, Tulsa, Honolulu, and oh look we're out of 1M+ MSAs.
It's very charitable to describe Phoenix as served by Maricopa station, even indirectly. It's 45min/30mi away on the other side of a mountain range in the middle of the desert. It's not even in the same county.
That’s closer than much of LA is to the train stations.
Honestly, no. That's the distance from the close parts of the city. The equivalent for LA would be Union station being out in Palmdale. The farther parts of the MSA and traffic can add 1-2hrs to that time.
LA is pretty well covered overall though, at least by West Coast standards. The biggest hole in the train network is long beach, but there's a lot of transit development happening in that area nowadays.
LA is pretty well covered overall though, at least by West Coast standards. The biggest hole in the train network is long beach, but there's a lot of transit development happening in that area nowadays.
Technically, the MSA is served, but unlike SF/Oakland MSA via Okland, yeah, Maricopa doesn't really service Phoenix at all.
Looking forward to the opening of Amtrak service to Honolulu.
Last time I checked the train from Indianapolis to Chicago only runs every other day. I love the idea of train travel but I live an hour outside of Indianapolis so I would have to drive an hour to take a 4 hour train that leaves at 6am (There is Greyhound bus to Indy from here but it doesn't get to Indy until after the train leaves). Or I could take the Greyhound from here to Chicago but that takes at least 6 hours.
Or I could just drive to Chicago and be there in under 4 hours.
Recently did Amtrak cross country for a month ($500).
I wouldn’t do it again for one reason.
Most employees behave as if they never sleep: extremely confused and depressed, unable to form complete sentences. That’s not an exaggeration. I sympathize deeply but it also ruined my trip.
P.s. for the Bay Area crowd, I do recommend the Tahoe route (zephyr) bc it’s more scenic than the purported most scenic parts of Amtrak. And close enough for a day trip.
Most employees behave as if they never sleep: extremely confused and depressed, unable to form complete sentences. That’s not an exaggeration. I sympathize deeply but it also ruined my trip.
P.s. for the Bay Area crowd, I do recommend the Tahoe route (zephyr) bc it’s more scenic than the purported most scenic parts of Amtrak. And close enough for a day trip.
This is really beautiful and I love it on multiple levels. It's been a garbage day and this lifted my spirits. Thank you so much.
I hope trains become more popular, and train travel is reinvigorated in the U.S!
Not making any judgements, but just for comparison, here is a Japan train explorer: https://roote.ekispert.net/rmap/fullscreen.
For context, Japan is roughly the size of California.
Not making any judgements, but just for comparison, here is a Japan train explorer: https://roote.ekispert.net/rmap/fullscreen.
For context, Japan is roughly the size of California.
I just checked how much it will cost me to travel to Boston, MA from Cleveland, OH.
Pretty straightforward route. 11 hours of travel and 172$ per seat in couch vagon. Considering that I wanted to take my whole family to this trip it just doesn't make sense to go by train. Car is going to be faster and cheaper even considering parking fees in Boston.
Pretty straightforward route. 11 hours of travel and 172$ per seat in couch vagon. Considering that I wanted to take my whole family to this trip it just doesn't make sense to go by train. Car is going to be faster and cheaper even considering parking fees in Boston.
Yep, it often makes more sense to go by car (especially when you can fill your car up), or you want to use your car at the destination (though renting is an option here).
Sometimes going by train is just more pleasant. Kids don't need to be strapped into carseats, repeatedly asking "are we there yet?" You can go to the bathroom or stretch your legs any time. You can do other things, such as enjoy the scenery or read a book. Also, last time I checked, trains are lot safer than cars. There is no traffic. Finally, you don't have to drive!
If you like, you might consider soft factors in addition to the fare :)
Sometimes going by train is just more pleasant. Kids don't need to be strapped into carseats, repeatedly asking "are we there yet?" You can go to the bathroom or stretch your legs any time. You can do other things, such as enjoy the scenery or read a book. Also, last time I checked, trains are lot safer than cars. There is no traffic. Finally, you don't have to drive!
If you like, you might consider soft factors in addition to the fare :)
The USA is too big. Trains will never compete with air travel except maybe in regional service.
China is a similar size but trains are very competitive there.
I think the part that's missing is good urban transit systems. A long distance train loses most of its advantages if you have to hire a car at the end of it.
I think the part that's missing is good urban transit systems. A long distance train loses most of its advantages if you have to hire a car at the end of it.
China has about three times the US population and it’s almost entirely concentrated along their coast. Passenger rail makes sense for that kind of population density. Where the US has similar density, it has Acela, which is the profitable part of Amtrak.
China also has a massive construction bubble that the government keeps propping up in order to delay the inevitable correction. As a result they overbuild a lot of infrastructure, including passenger rail, well beyond the point of diminishing returns.
China also has a massive construction bubble that the government keeps propping up in order to delay the inevitable correction. As a result they overbuild a lot of infrastructure, including passenger rail, well beyond the point of diminishing returns.
> China has about three times the US population and it’s almost entirely concentrated along their coast. Passenger rail makes sense for that kind of population density.
But they have high speed rail across the sparsely populated interior as well - not as dense as the network on the coast, but it's there and it successfully competes with flying. So the sort of network that the west half of China has should be possible in the US.
> they overbuild a lot of infrastructure, including passenger rail, well beyond the point of diminishing returns.
Maybe. Or maybe they sensibly plan ahead and build infrastructure that will be needed in the near future. Time will tell.
But they have high speed rail across the sparsely populated interior as well - not as dense as the network on the coast, but it's there and it successfully competes with flying. So the sort of network that the west half of China has should be possible in the US.
> they overbuild a lot of infrastructure, including passenger rail, well beyond the point of diminishing returns.
Maybe. Or maybe they sensibly plan ahead and build infrastructure that will be needed in the near future. Time will tell.
> Or maybe they sensibly plan ahead and build infrastructure that will be needed in the near future.
If they were making sensible plans for future population growth in Xinjiang, they wouldn’t be committing genocide there.
If they were making sensible plans for future population growth in Xinjiang, they wouldn’t be committing genocide there.
That's a nonsense non-sequitur and you know it.
How is it a non-sequitur? It doesn’t make sense to build infrastructure to support population growth in an area where you are deliberately reducing the population.
They're not expecting to reduce the population. The claims of "genocide" are based on a rather stretched redefinition to include forced cultural assimilation. And the US has more than its fair share of both forced cultural assimilation and deliberate efforts to reduce certain populations, so even if we accept your arguments then that's still no reason to have worse transportation.
The birthrates in Xinjiang are plummeting as a consequence of forced sterilization. Your genocide denial aside, the demographics of the region don’t favor your argument.
Compete in terms of what? Spending at least 5 extra hours before and after you travel in order to just get stuffed inside a tube and get treated like sht?
That's an exaggeration. Airlines will tell you to arrive at the airport 2 hours before your flight but if you're a bit organized, check in online, know what you can and can't pack in your carry-on, I'd say 90 minutes is fine. I usually end up sitting at the gate for about an hour waiting for boarding if I arrive 2 hours in advance.
Even so, a flight from Chicago to San Francisco is a little over 4 hours in the air. A train takes 2 days. There is no comparison.
Even so, a flight from Chicago to San Francisco is a little over 4 hours in the air. A train takes 2 days. There is no comparison.
High Speed Rail doesn't need to cover the country end to end, because most of the travel isn't end to end. There are plenty of "regional" services that can be done that will already remove millions of other worse trips (by car or plane) and will be a net benefit for everyone and everything (saving people time, generating revenue, reducing pollution and noise, etc. etc).
Amtrak would be great if they could minimize delays and keep an average speed at or above 55MPH throughout the ride.
That would, unfortunately, require actual infrastructure investment into trackage and electrification, and the nationalization of all the Class I freight companies. I'm not going to hold my breath.
Would you recommend a family trip on a train from Miami to California to see the country? Or is this something only fun for adults?
Curious to hear about thoughts from other young families. I feel like it would be such a nice adventure to have together.
Curious to hear about thoughts from other young families. I feel like it would be such a nice adventure to have together.
My wife & I (no kids) rode the Empire Builder over Thanksgiving last year. We rode Chicago to Seattle over the course of 3-4 days. We had a roomette (private room with two beds and a shower). There is so much space on board in the viewing car and the dining car, I would think kids would have enough space to burn off their energy. We had an amazing time and want to do another multi-day trip like that.
TIL that there is a Las Vegas in New Mexico, and that it even has passenger train service, unlike the better-known Las Vegas in Nevada...
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11 hour drive from Chicago to Washington, DC.
17 hour train ride.
17 hour train ride.
> 11 hour drive from Chicago to Washington, DC.
Having done that drive a few times, it's closer to 14 hours in practice, taking into account pit stops.
Having done that drive a few times, it's closer to 14 hours in practice, taking into account pit stops.
I left that out because the train is also subject to delays, and if you are quick with the pit stops it's no more than the time spent getting in and out of the station (you don't want to arrive at the station the moment it's leaving)
I guess this comment is supposed to be something snide about the deplorable state of rail in comparison to "just driving". But that 11hr drive is easily longer due to pit stops and potentially traffic depending on when you hit metro areas.
While on the train you can travel in basically first class comfort. Read a book. Get WiFi via a hotspot or just pre-download content. Bring cards or something to play games with a travel companion or a portable gaming device like a Switch. The train sounds p great honestly.
While on the train you can travel in basically first class comfort. Read a book. Get WiFi via a hotspot or just pre-download content. Bring cards or something to play games with a travel companion or a portable gaming device like a Switch. The train sounds p great honestly.
11 hours of active driving and dealing with traffic, then gotta catch up on energy after the drive, which means crashing out for the night, so you are really down for 24 hours.
17 hours of napping and relaxing, don't have to deal with parking at your destination, and can hit the ground running.
It is all a question of perspective.
17 hours of napping and relaxing, don't have to deal with parking at your destination, and can hit the ground running.
It is all a question of perspective.
You can sleep and read a book during these 17 hours, though.
Main problem being it's an overnight trip, and you can't pick and choose your schedule. The comparison I really wanted to make was Chicago to NYC but I wanted to provide the best one for the train. Chicago to NYC is even less palatable. Want to split Chicago to NYC into two segments and stay the night in Buffalo? Too bad, only one train per day, you have to spend the night on the train, plus there's no view around what I think would be a scenic route from Chicago to Buffalo.
https://neo-trans.blog/2022/08/05/campaign-arrives-to-expand...
https://neo-trans.blog/2022/08/05/campaign-arrives-to-expand...
Chicago to NYC is actually a bit out of reach for night trains (which you should absolutely take and absolutely sleep as a baby on your berth) being 1150 km as crow flies.
There was a comfortably scheduled night Helsinki to Moscow train which covered 950km, made possible by the fact that Moscow-SPb rail line was built almost a straight line and also quite quick. The terrain between NYC and Chicago is rugged so no such path to be expected. Maybe the Chinese would be able to build a 1000 km elevated track between those two cities and make it all work, though they will prefer to make it an 5h daytime ride and not a nighttrain...
There was a comfortably scheduled night Helsinki to Moscow train which covered 950km, made possible by the fact that Moscow-SPb rail line was built almost a straight line and also quite quick. The terrain between NYC and Chicago is rugged so no such path to be expected. Maybe the Chinese would be able to build a 1000 km elevated track between those two cities and make it all work, though they will prefer to make it an 5h daytime ride and not a nighttrain...
I don't want a night train, I want a day train.
The train isn't too rugged for them to run 3 trains per day instead of 1, running at different times, so you can choose the time you leave a given station.
The train isn't too rugged for them to run 3 trains per day instead of 1, running at different times, so you can choose the time you leave a given station.
Soo good looking! Thanks for making this.
Glad to see this. I have only taken about 15 trips in Amtrak - always enjoyed it.
Nice work on this one, and I enjoyed Beluga back in the day.
dang, too bad it's out of date. The Ethan Allen Express has extended up to Burlington for over a year now...
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they got rid of the Chatanooga choo choo?
(2022)
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My wife an I met in the Pacific Surfliner's dining car, and our 2 year old is obsessed with trains of any type, so you could say we're becoming a train family.
I'm currently building a raspberry-pi based "train coming!" / "ding-a-ling!" machine for my son which scrapes the real-time location of trains from the above site. The response to this thread is inspiring me to write about it!
Getting the actual data from Amtrak's api isn't super straight forward, but a nice hacker beat me to it and published some hints: https://gist.github.com/chriswhong/aa4a2911883904310b3c342e7...