Stocketa – An app I designed, built and never launched(paulstamatiou.com)
paulstamatiou.com
Stocketa – An app I designed, built and never launched
https://paulstamatiou.com/stocketa/
99 comments
I did this back in 2016, with an iOS app I built/hacked away at while learning/self-teaching Swift and UIKit.
Easily over 1,000 hours (~2 hours ~5x day per week for ~2 years) invested in to the app. I learned so, so much, and fell in love with the Swift language, but that app never saw the light of day.
Instead, I developed skills that have made me a much better programmer. And, fast-forward to the current day, I could effectively re-write the entire app - from scratch - in a weekend, due to the evolution of Apple's platform dev tools and APIs over the last ~7 years + the mountains of Swift code and packages I've hacked and honed away at over the years.
This type of project should be celebrated. Programming is (can be) art. Art can be made just for you, as a creative outlet.
Easily over 1,000 hours (~2 hours ~5x day per week for ~2 years) invested in to the app. I learned so, so much, and fell in love with the Swift language, but that app never saw the light of day.
Instead, I developed skills that have made me a much better programmer. And, fast-forward to the current day, I could effectively re-write the entire app - from scratch - in a weekend, due to the evolution of Apple's platform dev tools and APIs over the last ~7 years + the mountains of Swift code and packages I've hacked and honed away at over the years.
This type of project should be celebrated. Programming is (can be) art. Art can be made just for you, as a creative outlet.
The more commitments you have in life, the more pressure there is to align your learning projects with money earning activities.
You can't justify to your family, kids and other "stakeholders" that you spent thousands of hours developing apps just for learning new subjects. In the least, you need some kind of successful activity to grow out of it.
Besides, some parts of a software development project do involve learning, but a huge portion is drudgery. Solving edge cases, doing customer support for repetitive issues, solving that last pixel that is not quite right.
Making apps is great, and it's a sign of maturity to have a concern for how well received it will be.
You can't justify to your family, kids and other "stakeholders" that you spent thousands of hours developing apps just for learning new subjects. In the least, you need some kind of successful activity to grow out of it.
Besides, some parts of a software development project do involve learning, but a huge portion is drudgery. Solving edge cases, doing customer support for repetitive issues, solving that last pixel that is not quite right.
Making apps is great, and it's a sign of maturity to have a concern for how well received it will be.
> You can't justify to your family, kids and other "stakeholders" that you spent thousands of hours developing apps just for learning new subjects. In the least, you need some kind of successful activity to grow out of it.
Congratulations, you have explained why we have declining fertility rates. Maybe it is a good thing. Who knows. All I know is I can't afford to have children. Having children who want to go to college / medical school should be a cause for celebration, not a scary thought for parents for one. I will tell anyone and everyone who will listen, don't have kids. It is not worth it. There is no law that requires people to have children. Let the idiots who don't understand this do all the child bearing and child rearing. After all, they lash out at the simplest idea that it takes a village to raise a child.
> solving that last pixel that is not quite right.
The great thing about a personal project like this is you can spend as much or as little time as you want to. This is the ultimate agile team where you are wearing all hats -- a true cross functional team which I believe the word agile prescribes.
> Making apps is great, and it's a sign of maturity to have a concern for how well received it will be.
As someone who puts the "pro" in procastination, I know a sure sign of procastination when I see one. This is not a sign of maturity at all. This is just laziness.
Congratulations, you have explained why we have declining fertility rates. Maybe it is a good thing. Who knows. All I know is I can't afford to have children. Having children who want to go to college / medical school should be a cause for celebration, not a scary thought for parents for one. I will tell anyone and everyone who will listen, don't have kids. It is not worth it. There is no law that requires people to have children. Let the idiots who don't understand this do all the child bearing and child rearing. After all, they lash out at the simplest idea that it takes a village to raise a child.
> solving that last pixel that is not quite right.
The great thing about a personal project like this is you can spend as much or as little time as you want to. This is the ultimate agile team where you are wearing all hats -- a true cross functional team which I believe the word agile prescribes.
> Making apps is great, and it's a sign of maturity to have a concern for how well received it will be.
As someone who puts the "pro" in procastination, I know a sure sign of procastination when I see one. This is not a sign of maturity at all. This is just laziness.
>I will tell anyone and everyone who will listen, don't have kids. It is not worth it. There is no law that requires people to have children. Let the idiots who don't understand this do all the child bearing and child rearing
You know you need those kids so you can retire, right? Idk, maybe you want to tap out code forever, but you're going to need farmers and cooks and doctors and plumbers and people to make your iPhone. I guess, everyone else can raise those people though right? Fuck them, they can pay and you can enjoy their children's labour, right?
You know you need those kids so you can retire, right? Idk, maybe you want to tap out code forever, but you're going to need farmers and cooks and doctors and plumbers and people to make your iPhone. I guess, everyone else can raise those people though right? Fuck them, they can pay and you can enjoy their children's labour, right?
You left out the last sentence in the paragraph.
I don't have children of my own.
I get that we are all supposed to be "rugged individualism" in this country
but that is just a myth just like the "self-made man".
I think we need fewer people to have children so that we actually begin to value our children not just my children, but also my neighbor's children. Your children are your ward, not your property.
> Fuck them, they can pay and you can enjoy their children's labour, right?
Ah, labour. OK sorry, I guess you are from England or something? I am saying the opposite. We have religious nutjobs in the United States who think that if you cut off all government safety nets and people have nowhere to go to but to the church they will be doing "God's work". They have joined forces with grifters and capitalists who want to remove all government entitlements. It costs tens of thousands of dollars to have a baby.
You already have NHS. I understand it is not perfect but we are still fighting for medicare for all here and realistically, I will never see it in my lifetime.
I understand my conviction is controversial. Given that the social safety net is crumbling in my country, I cannot in good conscience have children or recommend anyone to have children. Precisely because a lot of (loud) people think "Fuck them, they can pay" for their own children.
I think we need fewer people to have children so that we actually begin to value our children not just my children, but also my neighbor's children. Your children are your ward, not your property.
> Fuck them, they can pay and you can enjoy their children's labour, right?
Ah, labour. OK sorry, I guess you are from England or something? I am saying the opposite. We have religious nutjobs in the United States who think that if you cut off all government safety nets and people have nowhere to go to but to the church they will be doing "God's work". They have joined forces with grifters and capitalists who want to remove all government entitlements. It costs tens of thousands of dollars to have a baby.
You already have NHS. I understand it is not perfect but we are still fighting for medicare for all here and realistically, I will never see it in my lifetime.
I understand my conviction is controversial. Given that the social safety net is crumbling in my country, I cannot in good conscience have children or recommend anyone to have children. Precisely because a lot of (loud) people think "Fuck them, they can pay" for their own children.
Declining populations == a crumbling society.
I guess it is up to you whether or not you want to have the joy of a child in your life.
I guess it is up to you whether or not you want to have the joy of a child in your life.
If you think "we will need more laborers in the future" is a good reason for someone to have kids, please don't have any.
You’re right it’s not a good reason for an individual to have kids. but it is a good reason why even childless people should be motivated to be part of a society that invests in people who do raise children.
Great project, sorry about the unavailability of cheap price data for the consumer segment.
Professional data is expensive, and one-person companies are not on the radar of data vendors and exchanges, who try to make big contracts e.g. with national banks abd brokerages, who then make that data available to their customers via Web portals. The quality of financial data isn't very good even if you pay a lot.
If your project had been a startup, you would have had to check whether your assumptions apply ahead of building out your front-end and incorporating, ideally: "Can you build it for an acceptable price?" (factoring in the data licensing cost) & "Will they buy it for the price (+ your margin) that you can build it?"
Professional data is expensive, and one-person companies are not on the radar of data vendors and exchanges, who try to make big contracts e.g. with national banks abd brokerages, who then make that data available to their customers via Web portals. The quality of financial data isn't very good even if you pay a lot.
If your project had been a startup, you would have had to check whether your assumptions apply ahead of building out your front-end and incorporating, ideally: "Can you build it for an acceptable price?" (factoring in the data licensing cost) & "Will they buy it for the price (+ your margin) that you can build it?"
Hi -- just want to clarify -- I am NOT the OP, not trying to claim this as my project, simply relating a similar example from my personal life.
At the end of the day regret for stuff like this only makes sense if you could have known at the time that it wouldn't pan out and you did it against your better judgement. If you made the best decision with the information you had that's all you can do, everything else is up to the gods.
This sort of outcome based thinking where you fret over past projects in hindsight with knowledge you didn't have when you had to make a choice just isn't worth bothering with. Most projects fail, most businesses do, that's just how it goes. I remember reading a blog from an ex finance guy where he pointed out that nobody was ever fired for accidentally making money from a bad trade. In our results based culture it's pretty easy to forget that we really only control the process.
This sort of outcome based thinking where you fret over past projects in hindsight with knowledge you didn't have when you had to make a choice just isn't worth bothering with. Most projects fail, most businesses do, that's just how it goes. I remember reading a blog from an ex finance guy where he pointed out that nobody was ever fired for accidentally making money from a bad trade. In our results based culture it's pretty easy to forget that we really only control the process.
I have no regret, only a slight loss at the sense of self. All of that energy does not come for "free." You must pay the piper so to speak. You only have a few surges like that in your lifetime, so far I'm on like #7 or something and I feel I don't have it in me to do too many more, at least at that intensity. Kind of like a cat that gets 9 lives. In my 20s I was a bit foolish on what I chose to invest those 9 lives in. Luckily, as I've gotten older I'm much smarter and I have chosen wisely.
I spent ten years on a software project, and 6 months after finishing it still hasn't made a single penny :(
10 years.
I learned valuable lessons (like knowing when to stop!), but they were long, loooong lessons.
I still haven't really let myself think about it too much...
10 years.
I learned valuable lessons (like knowing when to stop!), but they were long, loooong lessons.
I still haven't really let myself think about it too much...
I guess that's because you were specifically aiming for success (app usage / income) rather than for the primary reasons of enjoyment or learning?
Would you recommend that people don't take up a year+ long project unless they are sure they won't regret it even if nobody uses it?
Would you recommend that people don't take up a year+ long project unless they are sure they won't regret it even if nobody uses it?
I would say if you are building something with the aim to make it a business, make it a business already.
If you're building "for fun" go ahead, with the 100% conviction that you don't need/want it to make money.
If you're building "for fun" go ahead, with the 100% conviction that you don't need/want it to make money.
Your statement contains a lot of nuance that would have to be unpacked which at this moment I don't have time for, but I would say...
For starters, nothing I ever do is JUST for "enjoyment" or "learning", explicitly, by itself, as some kind of standalone pursuit.
Everything I do has to have some kind of meaning behind it, even if the meaning is small, such as "I wonder if I'm smart enough to do ___?"
So to answer your question, the projects I did were not for the primary reason of enjoyment and learning, but not because I was focused on some monetary end goal, and moreso because that's not how I approach anything in life.
In this particular example, I was working with my business partner, the end goal was monetary, but also was a sort of "magnum opus" style project that was insanely difficult (algorithm wise) as well as an extreme creative pursuit (of which I'm very creative). So my creative energy was what powered me, and my endless pursuit of problem solving puzzles and challenges also motivated me.
I loved every second of it, at the expense of my health, relationships, etc.
The gist of my message I think is for me, there is no other way. I have to have the perfect harmony of meaning + creativity + problem solving + a single person I "vibe" with very very well. If those ingredients are right, I can achieve focus and motivation levels that are just absurd. I mean literally from 5am to 9pm i coded without moving out of bed, including weekends. I gave up all fun, entertainment.
I notice other people are drawn to the pursuit of knowledge simply for the sake of learning, or knowledge acquisition. That's not me though, and if the only purpose is to just pursue information I could have never done that simply due to the massive amount of energy required (and I have done year long projects... maybe 6-7 times now. Luckily some of the other ones were really successful)
I would absolutely encourage anyone take up a year long project if they're able, simply because I don't think many people possess the certain configuration in their mind of how to motivate themselves to have that much energy. It almost doesn't feel like a choice (to me). I dont wake up and go "well I guess I should spend a year on this." It is a hyperfocusing deep powerful energy, like a calling or life purpose, where the only thing that makes sense is to do it. AND....... if a person has this, they should absolutely never ignore it.
So yes, I would say any person who has even a hint of a calling, absolutely do it, and not focus on outcome.
For starters, nothing I ever do is JUST for "enjoyment" or "learning", explicitly, by itself, as some kind of standalone pursuit.
Everything I do has to have some kind of meaning behind it, even if the meaning is small, such as "I wonder if I'm smart enough to do ___?"
So to answer your question, the projects I did were not for the primary reason of enjoyment and learning, but not because I was focused on some monetary end goal, and moreso because that's not how I approach anything in life.
In this particular example, I was working with my business partner, the end goal was monetary, but also was a sort of "magnum opus" style project that was insanely difficult (algorithm wise) as well as an extreme creative pursuit (of which I'm very creative). So my creative energy was what powered me, and my endless pursuit of problem solving puzzles and challenges also motivated me.
I loved every second of it, at the expense of my health, relationships, etc.
The gist of my message I think is for me, there is no other way. I have to have the perfect harmony of meaning + creativity + problem solving + a single person I "vibe" with very very well. If those ingredients are right, I can achieve focus and motivation levels that are just absurd. I mean literally from 5am to 9pm i coded without moving out of bed, including weekends. I gave up all fun, entertainment.
I notice other people are drawn to the pursuit of knowledge simply for the sake of learning, or knowledge acquisition. That's not me though, and if the only purpose is to just pursue information I could have never done that simply due to the massive amount of energy required (and I have done year long projects... maybe 6-7 times now. Luckily some of the other ones were really successful)
I would absolutely encourage anyone take up a year long project if they're able, simply because I don't think many people possess the certain configuration in their mind of how to motivate themselves to have that much energy. It almost doesn't feel like a choice (to me). I dont wake up and go "well I guess I should spend a year on this." It is a hyperfocusing deep powerful energy, like a calling or life purpose, where the only thing that makes sense is to do it. AND....... if a person has this, they should absolutely never ignore it.
So yes, I would say any person who has even a hint of a calling, absolutely do it, and not focus on outcome.
Expert Wasted Entire Life Studying Anteaters (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qXD9HnrNrvk)
I can relate to your feelings.
Let me tell you my trauma then, with the hopes that it will give you some comfort/consolation...
It is one thing if users don't use your application/project. But, when it is more out of your control, it hits harder.
I was young, I spent all my nights and even my whole summer holiday thinking/coding. I dreamed about the success or career it will bring with my friend.
Then it was a success and we were generating some ad revenue, which was great & much needed for two university students. The money was absorbed by our lives like water dripping onto dry soil. The morale was high, there was an air of optimism for the future!
It was an android app, and one day, I woke up with my friend's call. He was literally crying because the google algorithm deleted and banned our account, without any explanation or recourse. You are right that it never goes away, I can still feel the pain.
After that, I remember walking up and down a popular and long street with my friend, without speaking much and trying to process "end of the adventure" feeling. Not related to google we had other human/life problems in our lives and the simple hope we thought we built for ourselves was also gone. I was heartbroken and lost all my enthusiasm for mobile development.
I still wonder what would happen if I could continue down that path, with initial little success, enough money to survive as a student, and an opportunity to build upon that... It is just a parallel universe now. Google could delete our app, but guide us to the right path. If I could know the rules, I could continue and be a good citizen in google's walled garden. While spammers can always found a way, and find motivation with their low-effort tries... google lost a developer with good intentions. I don't think it had any effect on the algorithm or overall corporate strategy.
On the bright side, this event thought me to never trust a business partnership where I can not shake hands with a human that I trust and who geniunely wants my success/not treat me as some replaceable number. (Also insert some rant about why AI overlords can be harmful and why human history created law-based order with human judgement...)
I think it happened over 10 years ago, I can't even pay money to use a Google service now :) I don't change my email, just so that it reminds me this lesson. But if I was a scammer/spammer I would find many solutions to circumvent google AI. I tried contacting via forms when I couldn't pay for a service and when I felt like doing so. Surprisingly, in some cases I could even reach some people via these official channels. Alas, they are powerless, they had to give template answers. I assume the last word is spoken by the Algorithm, and I'm banned for life :)
Overall, It is the first time I wrote about this online. I hope it helps a little. I should also say that I have no hard feelings for people working at google, they brought us great value over the years. But the brand of the company will always remind me those days, and I will always upvote when someone criticize google :) (What power do I have as a little, disposable developer? ;) ) And, no you can't escape by changing your name to Alphabet or Alphabet soup...
Let me tell you my trauma then, with the hopes that it will give you some comfort/consolation...
It is one thing if users don't use your application/project. But, when it is more out of your control, it hits harder.
I was young, I spent all my nights and even my whole summer holiday thinking/coding. I dreamed about the success or career it will bring with my friend.
Then it was a success and we were generating some ad revenue, which was great & much needed for two university students. The money was absorbed by our lives like water dripping onto dry soil. The morale was high, there was an air of optimism for the future!
It was an android app, and one day, I woke up with my friend's call. He was literally crying because the google algorithm deleted and banned our account, without any explanation or recourse. You are right that it never goes away, I can still feel the pain.
After that, I remember walking up and down a popular and long street with my friend, without speaking much and trying to process "end of the adventure" feeling. Not related to google we had other human/life problems in our lives and the simple hope we thought we built for ourselves was also gone. I was heartbroken and lost all my enthusiasm for mobile development.
I still wonder what would happen if I could continue down that path, with initial little success, enough money to survive as a student, and an opportunity to build upon that... It is just a parallel universe now. Google could delete our app, but guide us to the right path. If I could know the rules, I could continue and be a good citizen in google's walled garden. While spammers can always found a way, and find motivation with their low-effort tries... google lost a developer with good intentions. I don't think it had any effect on the algorithm or overall corporate strategy.
On the bright side, this event thought me to never trust a business partnership where I can not shake hands with a human that I trust and who geniunely wants my success/not treat me as some replaceable number. (Also insert some rant about why AI overlords can be harmful and why human history created law-based order with human judgement...)
I think it happened over 10 years ago, I can't even pay money to use a Google service now :) I don't change my email, just so that it reminds me this lesson. But if I was a scammer/spammer I would find many solutions to circumvent google AI. I tried contacting via forms when I couldn't pay for a service and when I felt like doing so. Surprisingly, in some cases I could even reach some people via these official channels. Alas, they are powerless, they had to give template answers. I assume the last word is spoken by the Algorithm, and I'm banned for life :)
Overall, It is the first time I wrote about this online. I hope it helps a little. I should also say that I have no hard feelings for people working at google, they brought us great value over the years. But the brand of the company will always remind me those days, and I will always upvote when someone criticize google :) (What power do I have as a little, disposable developer? ;) ) And, no you can't escape by changing your name to Alphabet or Alphabet soup...
This is an excellent blog post and the conclusion makes me feel sad. Because there are so many apps that I feel that way about. Where I just wish there was a version that was crap free. The amount of work that went into this is awe inspiring.
I launched a much simpler iOS app, and eventually got up to around 1000 DAU organically, but ultimately closed it down because I had 1 IAP to remove ads for like $1.99 or $2.99. I was making maybe $70 a month or something, and dealing with bug reports. SwiftUI was not mature enough yet to use, so I was still using UIKit and I would constantly run into really hard to fix edge cases.
The thing that made me throw in the towel was when Google claimed I was clicking my own ads and stopped serving them, effectively cutting off all revenue. It made me realize I'd worked so hard to build this thing, and it was all at the whims of these tech giants. Apple gets a 30% cut (this was before they dropped it to 15% if you are doing under x amount per year "because COVID") of every IAP, I make peanuts from ads and Google can turn those off for no reason with no way to appeal.
I also wasn't trying to make a bunch of money off the app, but I needed to justify spending my time and energy on it and I just couldn't.
I launched a much simpler iOS app, and eventually got up to around 1000 DAU organically, but ultimately closed it down because I had 1 IAP to remove ads for like $1.99 or $2.99. I was making maybe $70 a month or something, and dealing with bug reports. SwiftUI was not mature enough yet to use, so I was still using UIKit and I would constantly run into really hard to fix edge cases.
The thing that made me throw in the towel was when Google claimed I was clicking my own ads and stopped serving them, effectively cutting off all revenue. It made me realize I'd worked so hard to build this thing, and it was all at the whims of these tech giants. Apple gets a 30% cut (this was before they dropped it to 15% if you are doing under x amount per year "because COVID") of every IAP, I make peanuts from ads and Google can turn those off for no reason with no way to appeal.
I also wasn't trying to make a bunch of money off the app, but I needed to justify spending my time and energy on it and I just couldn't.
>>Google claimed I was clicking my own ads and stopped serving them, effectively cutting off all revenue.
This draconian buyllshirt is baffling
Why can Google simply allow developers to register a list of $Revenue_Excluded devices and/or IP ranges and/or locations? You will inevitably use your own app and many ads are almost impossible to NOT click accidentally when scrolling. Moreover, testing in real life is important. There's also the (small) chance an advert might actually be interesting and you legit click-thru as a potential customer.
Instead, you basically cannot use your own app.
What good does this do for anyone, except for the Google devs/mgrs who insist on this kind of fundamentally stupid policy? Is it really that hard to do it even a little bit right?
This draconian buyllshirt is baffling
Why can Google simply allow developers to register a list of $Revenue_Excluded devices and/or IP ranges and/or locations? You will inevitably use your own app and many ads are almost impossible to NOT click accidentally when scrolling. Moreover, testing in real life is important. There's also the (small) chance an advert might actually be interesting and you legit click-thru as a potential customer.
Instead, you basically cannot use your own app.
What good does this do for anyone, except for the Google devs/mgrs who insist on this kind of fundamentally stupid policy? Is it really that hard to do it even a little bit right?
I mean, I had a development flag where it wasn't serving real ads when I was in development mode and the copy I had installed on my own phone had the IAP active to remove ads. There is no chance I was clicking my own ads. The revenue from ads was literally peanuts anyways, I don't even think I ever saw a cent of ad revenue (you have to hit a certain amount before they will even send you a check) the ads were basically only there to get people to pay the small one time fee to remove them.
If I did get an ad payout, it was likely < $100. I honestly don't remember, I've put so much of this out of my mind.
If I did get an ad payout, it was likely < $100. I honestly don't remember, I've put so much of this out of my mind.
So too might think the bedroom musician of 20 years, who never performs or releases, or the childhood sportsperson who never touches a ball again after age 18. The runner who never races, the intellect which never teaches. Perhaps ultimately, under that same precept of "external production = merit", the human being who lives many decades and never reproduces. (not my belief! merely a reasoning)
But I think such judgements are human constructs, mirrors of the biological imperative to put 'our offspring' out there in the world, these things we have gestated so long. Why should they not acquire a life of their own?? - we ask - gaining us ongoing wins in their own right, and contributing their threads to the future?
Is serving that imperative the moral, the ethical, even the simply enjoyable pinnacle of endeavour? For some of us, yes. I'm not judging it. But for some of us .... strangely, no.
But I think such judgements are human constructs, mirrors of the biological imperative to put 'our offspring' out there in the world, these things we have gestated so long. Why should they not acquire a life of their own?? - we ask - gaining us ongoing wins in their own right, and contributing their threads to the future?
Is serving that imperative the moral, the ethical, even the simply enjoyable pinnacle of endeavour? For some of us, yes. I'm not judging it. But for some of us .... strangely, no.
Would you be interested in selling this project? I love the concept, and it sounds like you have customers interested in it, but aren't interested in taking on the burden of support and figuring out a business for it.
I'm about a year in building an asset tracker (https://jch.app), but it's nowhere close in functionality or ux.
Incredible work, amazing dive into the journey, and excited to see what comes next in rewind.ai too ;)
I'm about a year in building an asset tracker (https://jch.app), but it's nowhere close in functionality or ux.
Incredible work, amazing dive into the journey, and excited to see what comes next in rewind.ai too ;)
Kudos for this.
It's not all that different from the countless hours countless infinite people have spend on infinite projects that never meant much to anyone else. Like hacking on bicycles or model trains or something.
It's just that an app can be published, documented, and archived easily like this while "all that time I spent cutting and welding weird bike parts" can't, unless you do it all on youtube, which a lot of people do, and that does serve some purpose but does also kind of miss the point a bit trying to turn a passtime and personal persuit into some kind of product with a goal other than itself.
Anyway, I don't mean to suggest there is anything wrong with a post like this. You don't sound like you're complaining or upset, just what you said at the top "I just want to document this somewhere somehow". Most of my own github is just the same.
It's just that an app can be published, documented, and archived easily like this while "all that time I spent cutting and welding weird bike parts" can't, unless you do it all on youtube, which a lot of people do, and that does serve some purpose but does also kind of miss the point a bit trying to turn a passtime and personal persuit into some kind of product with a goal other than itself.
Anyway, I don't mean to suggest there is anything wrong with a post like this. You don't sound like you're complaining or upset, just what you said at the top "I just want to document this somewhere somehow". Most of my own github is just the same.
This is profound. What is possible serves as an anchor in our assessment of what actually took place.
This premature adjustment of judging criteria is probably not so useful, obfuscating the actual outcome. In this case, it would be easy for the author to be ashamed of such "wasted" effort, when the more appropriate reaction would be appreciation for the lessons learned. And the lessons learned on a project like this are immense.
This premature adjustment of judging criteria is probably not so useful, obfuscating the actual outcome. In this case, it would be easy for the author to be ashamed of such "wasted" effort, when the more appropriate reaction would be appreciation for the lessons learned. And the lessons learned on a project like this are immense.
This post scares me because I see so much of myself in it. I can get really wrapped up in the building of a great product, deeply absorbed in the identity of being a craftsman, and grossed out by the “soulless” approach of quick-and-dirty MVPs and iterative market testing. If you’ve ever visited the r/SaaS subreddit, it is the antithesis of what I enjoy about being a software developer. However, if I can manage to change my mentality about market testing and quick, dirty iteration, I know that provides a much better foundation for letting loose and focusing on the craft.
I feel the same way.
I feel you... I'm still building a banking backend(core, accouting, clients, accounts, payments (sepa + cards), notifications (servicenow-like), sanctions screening, risk/monitoring engine, event flow, reporting), 5 years and counting... Beginning to wonder if I'm crazy or stupid to take on this gygantic undertaking.. and we're yet to design a landing page. With smth like 150k LOC...
As someone in this space, I highly recommend you start engaging with your potential customers and building trust ASAP. It took us a lot longer than 5 years to gain enough trust to convince our customers over to our core banking platform - despite their existing platforms being fraught with bugs, limitations and insecurities.
We are sort-of scouting the area with a few potential small prospects.. the feedback so far is very positive, but none have committed cash on the table. Hard sales process is expected and at the same unnerving: we're in b2b market and a narrow, highly specialized niche - finding the right clients is tough (and we don't have the cash and/or time for that).
Have you got some text describing the process of building trust, by any chance? I'm going through a similar challenge (but it's on agriculture instead of banking): 3 years in, trying to build trust with large clients.
I think the thing that helped the most is we built great relationships with our small clients. We convinced them to let us observe their day to day, speak to staff etc. From that we got an intimate idea of all their biggest pain points and we were able to offer complimentary products that worked with their existing core banking (and abstracted it wherever possible). Things like secure communications, document management, form builders - things we were planning on building after our core banking but were actually a bigger pain point for them. It made such a difference to the actual staff that they would be bragging about us at conferences and networking events. Eventually the word spread in the community/industry and soon enough the big clients went from ignoring our calls to asking for "exactly what they have" (referring to the small clients who took the risk innovating).
TLDR: Try starting with easier to sell, complimentary products. Focus on the smaller clients as they're more willing to innovate. Do such a good job that they can't help but brag.
TLDR: Try starting with easier to sell, complimentary products. Focus on the smaller clients as they're more willing to innovate. Do such a good job that they can't help but brag.
This resonates with the strategy I've been trying to pivot our project to: instead of trying to sell all-in-one solution for large-/mid-size bank (easily 100K+ in revenue per case), rather "productize" smaller tools, make them understandable and easily accessible to a wider, smaller range of clients. Example: FATCA/CRS reporting - a thing that any fintech/bank/insurance company needs to do (and hates ); we give a tool which eliminates 80% of the hassle, just get your reportable client list.
So, I on the right path?
So, I on the right path?
I built an ecommerce solution with payments, REST messaging, email servers(imap/smtp) and affiliate advertising(with its own payments, reporting, ACLs etc) as well. I managed to get an alpha state for the full solution with both a desktop and mobile web frontend(SPA and all that).
But then the mobile apps became a thing so I started working on a native app as well...that was just too much..I burned out and got bankrupted as well so I would advise against giga projects. At some point it becomes just too much work...
I learned a lot but the waste is just not worth it. The time is too important to reinvent so much.
Now I work only on "small" projects only(max 6-12 months)
But then the mobile apps became a thing so I started working on a native app as well...that was just too much..I burned out and got bankrupted as well so I would advise against giga projects. At some point it becomes just too much work...
I learned a lot but the waste is just not worth it. The time is too important to reinvent so much.
Now I work only on "small" projects only(max 6-12 months)
You're building a banking backend as a side project? I'm interested. Is this more of a fun project, or is there a commercial end-goal?
Any chance it's open source?
Any chance it's open source?
End goal has been commercial all along, else we would never found the stamina to keep going. If interested, how could you contribute - any special skills/experiences? DM me.
I've been toying with open source idea for a while - if I decide to shelf it, I'll open-source it, heck with it, some one will benefit for sure. And a lot of crapware sellers, which charge 20-50-100k EUR just for install, will be very unhappy (if not out of business).
I've been toying with open source idea for a while - if I decide to shelf it, I'll open-source it, heck with it, some one will benefit for sure. And a lot of crapware sellers, which charge 20-50-100k EUR just for install, will be very unhappy (if not out of business).
Open sourcing something like this would be a good strategy. Financial companies would pay handsomely for custom features, updates, managed services, etc.
Launch. Start with screenshots, a feature list (real and planned as two distinct lists) and a form to collect beta sign ups.
If you cannot launch a basic version (minus everything else you want to add) consider shelving it.
I've built many projects/products over the last 20+ years. 2 or 3 took off significantly, others have thousands of users but no sustained revenue stream. One that has become a profitable business (it launched with the "weekend build" version and has built up from there over 7 years).
If you cannot launch a basic version (minus everything else you want to add) consider shelving it.
I've built many projects/products over the last 20+ years. 2 or 3 took off significantly, others have thousands of users but no sustained revenue stream. One that has become a profitable business (it launched with the "weekend build" version and has built up from there over 7 years).
Probably best advise in the thread, appreciate the practical bits. Will just have to launch with what we have (and we have way too much for a MVP, to the point that documenting/presenting is a PITA)
I know that I've been deceiving myself with "but we can't launch that when this or that is not working or not implemented..." and got carried away.
"fail fast" is a good advice, but at the same time scary to face the reality that after 5 years, there might not be anyone who really needs it or can pay for it. Scary.
I know that I've been deceiving myself with "but we can't launch that when this or that is not working or not implemented..." and got carried away.
"fail fast" is a good advice, but at the same time scary to face the reality that after 5 years, there might not be anyone who really needs it or can pay for it. Scary.
Something to also ask yourself - what would it look like to be successful? After 5 years of no revenue, you’re probably comfortable at that step, and the trap is to always find things that need doing pre-launch because that’s what you’re used to. So it might be worth reframing it in your mind.
Out of curiosity: do you know how banks do their backends were the money is stored?
Like what are the security measures?
Like what are the security measures?
Banks use different security measures, ones are better at it, others really superficial to the extent it's scary (seen with my own eyes). There's no standard what they need or must have - rather depends on the size of the risk, resources available at their disposal. Which often is a result of whether they have ever been hacked or not. A lot of banks never have been and feel they are invincible, and that shows in their security/redundancy measures.
"where the money is stored".. that one. In a nutshell, 99% of people (HN crowd including) do not understand, what is money in a bank, imagine it like some kind of electronic vault, which you as a client can access securely and transfer it (semi physically). Money in a bank does not exist. An IT guy would say "it's bits and bites, nothing more". A finance guy would say that it is a web of collaterals and liabilities. Simple example: 100 clients each open accounts with a bank and deposit 100 EUR; bank has 10'000 EUR assets and 10'000 EUR liabilities (it owes 10K to its customers); bank deposits that money, say, with TARGET2 interbank gross-settlement system (which again has accounts with other banks), so its clients can make/get credit transfers. So, as soon as money is deposited, it gets transferred to other parties, pledged, lent or invested - it is almost never "in the bank". So there's little to steal. Even if you do, the trouble is that somebody's asset is typically another party's liability (and vice versa), i.e. stuff is recorded by different actors - and all that can be traced back, you can't hack into all of them. Hence, stealing bank's funds without a trace is close to impossible. Keyword - "close" ;)
"where the money is stored".. that one. In a nutshell, 99% of people (HN crowd including) do not understand, what is money in a bank, imagine it like some kind of electronic vault, which you as a client can access securely and transfer it (semi physically). Money in a bank does not exist. An IT guy would say "it's bits and bites, nothing more". A finance guy would say that it is a web of collaterals and liabilities. Simple example: 100 clients each open accounts with a bank and deposit 100 EUR; bank has 10'000 EUR assets and 10'000 EUR liabilities (it owes 10K to its customers); bank deposits that money, say, with TARGET2 interbank gross-settlement system (which again has accounts with other banks), so its clients can make/get credit transfers. So, as soon as money is deposited, it gets transferred to other parties, pledged, lent or invested - it is almost never "in the bank". So there's little to steal. Even if you do, the trouble is that somebody's asset is typically another party's liability (and vice versa), i.e. stuff is recorded by different actors - and all that can be traced back, you can't hack into all of them. Hence, stealing bank's funds without a trace is close to impossible. Keyword - "close" ;)
Recently I read that Leonardo DaVinci was a huge procrastinator, with an enormous queue of unfinished projects. I always admired him for being so successful on so many things and different areas, but after knowing this, it changed my perspective that procrastinating is a part of us, the creative people. You can frame it is a failure, but it's also possible to reframe it as part of the process. In the end, we enjoy building stuff.
He basically took the conventional advice – build an MVP, launch quickly, iterate – and did the exact opposite.
After a decade at big tech companies only shipping sub-par experiences, I was looking forward to doing the exact opposite and focusing on quality. https://paulstamatiou.com/craft/
Thanks for your post. While it might not be the optimal approach for maximizing profit, I think your Stocketa blog post is absolutely stunning and shows an incredible commitment to quality as well as a very impressive work ethic to spend so much time on it.
If I may ask a question - how did you do it?
If I may ask a question - how did you do it?
I don't know if that applies to solo developers. There is no "moving fast" when you're responsible for every little tiny piece of the thing, especially in an app like this that is necessarily maximalist.
What a great blog about a fantastic looking side project!
Engaged I went on reading, and stumbled on rewind.ai, that too looks great!
Privacy obviously being a crucial issue for something as potentially invasive - continuous automatic screen and audio recording - questions came up browsing the ‘Privacy first’ section:
“Encrypt your data using FileVault - Apple FileVault works with Rewind. With it enabled your data is encrypted.”
Is there anything Rewind does to make Apple FileVault ‘work with Rewind’? Or is this the general disk encryption that works for everything and anything? Serious question. I want to use rewind but this may be interpreted as gratuitous.
Same feeling when reading “only relevant text-based data is sent to the cloud and is encrypted in transit.”
Does ‘Encrypted in transit’ refer to standard TLS encryption? Again, serious question. Rewind looks great, I just need to be able to trust it.
“Encrypt your data using FileVault - Apple FileVault works with Rewind. With it enabled your data is encrypted.”
Is there anything Rewind does to make Apple FileVault ‘work with Rewind’? Or is this the general disk encryption that works for everything and anything? Serious question. I want to use rewind but this may be interpreted as gratuitous.
Same feeling when reading “only relevant text-based data is sent to the cloud and is encrypted in transit.”
Does ‘Encrypted in transit’ refer to standard TLS encryption? Again, serious question. Rewind looks great, I just need to be able to trust it.
The Rewind website states:
“No cloud integration required
It all just works automatically. No need to connect to a bunch of different services like Gmail, Dropbox, or Slack.”
But reading the details in the official Privacy Policy at https://www.rewind.ai/privacy says:
“[We collect:] Information Generated by OpenAI. As part of Rewind AI’s integration with OpenAI, we may also collect the outputs generated by OpenAI, such as the audio transcription summaries of your audio recordings and any other data generated by the OpenAI integration”
So “no cloud integration is required”, but my audio is shared with OpenAI !?
While at https://www.rewind.ai/privacy-first it says: “What happens when you search in Rewind? All recording data stays local.”
Which is it please? I want to trust Rewind because it looks great, but these incongruities in explaining what is happing with user data make me hesitate.
But reading the details in the official Privacy Policy at https://www.rewind.ai/privacy says:
“[We collect:] Information Generated by OpenAI. As part of Rewind AI’s integration with OpenAI, we may also collect the outputs generated by OpenAI, such as the audio transcription summaries of your audio recordings and any other data generated by the OpenAI integration”
So “no cloud integration is required”, but my audio is shared with OpenAI !?
While at https://www.rewind.ai/privacy-first it says: “What happens when you search in Rewind? All recording data stays local.”
Which is it please? I want to trust Rewind because it looks great, but these incongruities in explaining what is happing with user data make me hesitate.
The OpenAI part is only if you use our "Ask Rewind" feature. We have a separate disclosure there. Here's more detail: https://help.rewind.ai/en/articles/7791703-ask-rewind-s-priv...
Audio is locally transcribed on your machine. And you have full control over when you want to record audio (ie, only have it turn on with meetings), and when it comes to screen capture Rewind can exclude apps you select (such as 1Password, incognito windows, etc)
All that being said, we are also working on letting you toggle to using a local LLM. Our CEO @dsiroker did a demo of our Windows app with Llama 2 on stage with Intel's CEO at their recent conference: https://twitter.com/dsiroker/status/1704188923336085657
Audio is locally transcribed on your machine. And you have full control over when you want to record audio (ie, only have it turn on with meetings), and when it comes to screen capture Rewind can exclude apps you select (such as 1Password, incognito windows, etc)
All that being said, we are also working on letting you toggle to using a local LLM. Our CEO @dsiroker did a demo of our Windows app with Llama 2 on stage with Intel's CEO at their recent conference: https://twitter.com/dsiroker/status/1704188923336085657
That’s the whole point of the product right is to ask for what’s in the “history”? Otherwise is just a screen recording app that I can activate with cmd shift 5.
Rewind’s privacy policies are incredibly misleading. It’s a huge red flag for me.
Their most public statements only apply if you use the product in a very restricted and clearly unintended fashion.
Their most public statements only apply if you use the product in a very restricted and clearly unintended fashion.
Thanks for flagging, looks like we need to update that page - we have our own encryption as well. Here's more: https://help.rewind.ai/en/articles/7242593-is-the-rewind-dat...
Question on requirements - what about disk space for all these recordings, what does that look like?
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I thought at first that this guy was more focused on building vs shipping. And that was likely the main reason why he stopped yet another side project.
But this guy is now behind Rewind.AI so he probably knows a bit about shipping! Kudos for sharing your journey
But this guy is now behind Rewind.AI so he probably knows a bit about shipping! Kudos for sharing your journey
Skimming the article I think he got caught by one of the killer issues that is worth discovering early: "Are you relying on other people's data, and can you continue to rely on it".
Scraping based ideas hit this issue. Ideas that attach to a single platform API too: X (formerly Twitter) killed many startups who relied on it's API.
This probably generalizes to "What are your dependencies, how risky are they?"
Which then covers people who rely on SEO rankings, or a single Instagram account for their entire business.
Scraping based ideas hit this issue. Ideas that attach to a single platform API too: X (formerly Twitter) killed many startups who relied on it's API.
This probably generalizes to "What are your dependencies, how risky are they?"
Which then covers people who rely on SEO rankings, or a single Instagram account for their entire business.
It wasn't about building VS shipping. It was more the deployment maintenance and tech support wasn't the fun part. In addition to absurdly high api costs for what was supposed to be simple and low cost.
Afaict he is an employee at Rewind.AI, not a founder (which is what “is behind” makes me think, and is heavily implied by your comment).
The blog post speaks quality, but what's truly great is that the author knows when/why to stop the adventure.
I joined the first batch of TestFlight betas for this app. The UI was interesting if a bit over engineered, I understood that it was sort of a playground for the creator to experiment with UI interactions and animations.
I reported a handful of bugs/suggestions. Never heard back from the developer.
I reported a handful of bugs/suggestions. Never heard back from the developer.
Damn - as a dev who hates doing UI and animation this app looks amazing, something I would never have the patience to build.
Congrats on the project! Even if not launched!
Congrats on the project! Even if not launched!
There’s a lot of work there!
I’ve also developed a portfolio tracker as a side project ( https://finarky.com/ ). It’s much simpler, minimalistic (that’s how I like it), and at the same time provides the Personal Rate of Return, which I miss in other more-featured and cluttered apps (with features that i don’t need).
Feel proud of this man! This is really a great way to learn. You get to tinker and make mistakes and not be stressed with deadlines and management. Plus, you learn so much. I have my own multi-year project that I tinker with in between jobs and every now and then.
I'm a backend dev so I've focused on that mostly and haven't created an app but I can honestly say that things I've learned have not only made me a better programmer but allowed me to shine at some jobs where others didn't have a clue.
Keep going - if that's what you want - but wear your accomplishment as a badge of honour. Feel free to connect with me as well.
I'm a backend dev so I've focused on that mostly and haven't created an app but I can honestly say that things I've learned have not only made me a better programmer but allowed me to shine at some jobs where others didn't have a clue.
Keep going - if that's what you want - but wear your accomplishment as a badge of honour. Feel free to connect with me as well.
Qudos to the author for putting so much effort and polish into the original project. Amazing how they kept motivated for all that time without it being out there and being used.
Relatable.
I built a working concept of a mobile app and pitched it with a friend to FUTO for one of their grants. Project got declined, and the 2 months I spent developing it in every spare moment ended up going nowhere.
The failing to land a grant kind of killed enthusiasm. Project still builds, and oddly it’s still a viable concept. But it remains locked away in the confines of my SSD. :|
I built a working concept of a mobile app and pitched it with a friend to FUTO for one of their grants. Project got declined, and the 2 months I spent developing it in every spare moment ended up going nowhere.
The failing to land a grant kind of killed enthusiasm. Project still builds, and oddly it’s still a viable concept. But it remains locked away in the confines of my SSD. :|
That’s an exceptionally beautiful app and you should be proud to have built it. Doesn’t really matter if it’s a business or not.
I also looked into creating a stock tracking app. I wanted to let people simulate what their gains would have been if they had sold/held/bought at a certain point in time. But... yes, the publicly-available APIs are dogshit, and the paid versions are out of reach of mortals.
There is this belief out there that there is an either-or relationship between quality and time, but it isn't so. The quality-time tradeoff is not a straight line and there is in fact an optimal point between the two. I wish more people embraced this. There is so much bad software.
My goodness. The guy put in at least a man-year of design, product management and software engineering, which is no less than $250k US market value, and somehow dumped it because of 499 USD/month bill for the finance data, the foundation of the service.
Really impressive for a side project! However, it also feels wasteful to just let go of it after so many work hours invested…
How about open-sourcing it? Even if only one person picks it up for personal use it’s better than just rotting-bits on your hard drive
One of the best posts I've seen in a while presenting a product , the details of the smartphone appearing on the right, and the "interactive" video header makes the post a template to present products.
Kuddos!
Man I thought as soon as you went custom UI modules, you are screwed because it’d take 10x longer than to leverage what Apple have built. But it looks like a Herculean effort to get the entire app and back end out all on your own.
Just had an idea you could use. 1. Have your app allow people to Bring their own data source, if thats possible. 2. Just release it as is but just limit it to Nasdaq, SP500, Amex, and main indexes. (80/20).
Good looking app, I am guilty of the same crime,in fact I am a serial offender in not getting my apps to market, always get busy with something else when it is time for the critical phase of launching.
Maybe this time?
>Overall, it feels like no one in this cares to cater to the developer and startup crowd, or they believe there's not much money for them to pursue there.
Is this then a good idea for a VC or YC funded company?
Is this then a good idea for a VC or YC funded company?
This is a bit off topic, but I feel like I need to appeal to the author—please do not spam my browser history just for scrolling down the page. This effectively "breaks" the back button in the browser.
Not intentional. Fixed! Was related to hovering over videos and keeping the hero video changed in case you meant to share it with a specific video in mind as the hero. Changed the behavior to only do that in if you use the dropdown at the top.
On the same off-topic of scroll, I didn't have my browser's chrome after scrolling, and the only way I got it back was by leaving the page
perhaps the author is being a little cheeky with us, but he did launch his app and website, he even got ~1000 users, it's just that it didn't pick-up and grow, so he decided to tank it; sensible move. most projects die early on, it's better to close it sooner than later in cases like this.
From a startup project point of view, this project has way too much functionality (ui activity), without much user-base. No doubt a cool engineering project though - nicely done.
p.s. I never wrote this message :P
From a startup project point of view, this project has way too much functionality (ui activity), without much user-base. No doubt a cool engineering project though - nicely done.
p.s. I never wrote this message :P
kudos!
I was wondering if maybe the state of data feeds has changed, seems like there are so many competing data feeds now - https://docs.openbb.co/terminal/usage/guides/api-keys
but one does wonder if they are same quality as expensive professional feeds like bloomberg, keeping up with splits and ticker changes etc.
I was wondering if maybe the state of data feeds has changed, seems like there are so many competing data feeds now - https://docs.openbb.co/terminal/usage/guides/api-keys
but one does wonder if they are same quality as expensive professional feeds like bloomberg, keeping up with splits and ticker changes etc.
I remember Stocketa - it was an awesome app. A few people even try to simplify portfolio tracking while the demand is huge
Seriously some of the best UI I've ever seen. The animations just feel so satisfying.
Market data is extremely complicated and I've seen so many get fooled into thinking it's easy. It's understandable, if you can google any stock and get the price, you'd assume the data is free or public domain or something like that right? Maybe a small fee at most to power an API to get it. For those wondering, it tends to go like this:
You look into it and it's not quite so simple... the exchanges, like most financial services, are stuck in the past... but theres a cool website called IEX that is "revolutionizing" market data and can provide stock data for fairly cheap.
It looks like your idea might work, until you realize something is off with IEX's data. The prices aren't very accurate. Well it is accurate actually, only for stock trades that take place on IEX. Not NASDAQ. Not NYSE. Turns out the price of a stock that users expect is actually the last trade across ALL of the major stock exchanges.
Surely there is a way to get the "consolidated" price that reflects all exchanges? Not just IEX's measly 2% of volume? There's what is called the "consolidated tape" which is just that. Wait just kidding. It's "consolidated" but requires you enter into agreements with two separate organizations called CTA and UTP, also known as SIPs (security information processors). These are the only companies allowed to license the data, so they set the prices extremely high, starting at thousands of dollars per month.
Well, maybe you could deal with that if your app gets enough traction. There's more though... you can't actually get the data from CTA or UTP. You have to have a "vendor" do it for you, and pass on the data. The vendor is essentially a wrapper around the SIP that handles distributing the data to end-companies (not end-users, because realistically very little individuals can afford this, and vendors aren't too interested in dealing with individuals). Since the vendor focuses on the distribution, you'd assume their API would be top-notch. Instead you can tell it's built upon layers and layers of technical debt and edge cases. Oh well.
So, you then pay for the licenses from the SIPs, and the data from the vendor. You are now burning at least 10k a month. You get your first user, and they complain they can't find "SPX", the largest stock index in the world. Oops. It turns out indices, futures, options, and other securities, are all separate SIPs. You have to deal with even more backwards organizations to get licenses for each type of security. Don't forget the vendor wants another couple thousand for each SIP, more if you need realtime streaming or historical charting. Maybe just get indexes since they are popular? Indexes are once again spread across tens of organizations, depending on who owns the IP for the index. At this point you give up and just focus on U.S. stocks for now, until you get more funding.
Then one day, you are selected for a "random" audit by the SIP. They ask for personal information on every user you have, and claim that some users are actually financial professionals (such as a CFA or stock broker). They try to fine you 50x the price you expected because some users happen to have the same names as professional traders. (They charge a massive amount per professional trader vs per "ordinary" person) You have to deal with explaining what that even means and why it's important to your users to try to avoid this fine. Maybe your application was used on TV, or over the phone, or even on an elevator. There are different licenses for that. Ridiculous? Well, the SIP is authorized by the SEC to distribute the data, and enforce it. You have no upper hand in any negotiation.
To be continued in blog post someday maybe
FWIW, your new project already has some good traction. I've heard about it before (not sure where, but I 100% remember seeing it)
Market data is extremely complicated and I've seen so many get fooled into thinking it's easy. It's understandable, if you can google any stock and get the price, you'd assume the data is free or public domain or something like that right? Maybe a small fee at most to power an API to get it. For those wondering, it tends to go like this:
You look into it and it's not quite so simple... the exchanges, like most financial services, are stuck in the past... but theres a cool website called IEX that is "revolutionizing" market data and can provide stock data for fairly cheap.
It looks like your idea might work, until you realize something is off with IEX's data. The prices aren't very accurate. Well it is accurate actually, only for stock trades that take place on IEX. Not NASDAQ. Not NYSE. Turns out the price of a stock that users expect is actually the last trade across ALL of the major stock exchanges.
Surely there is a way to get the "consolidated" price that reflects all exchanges? Not just IEX's measly 2% of volume? There's what is called the "consolidated tape" which is just that. Wait just kidding. It's "consolidated" but requires you enter into agreements with two separate organizations called CTA and UTP, also known as SIPs (security information processors). These are the only companies allowed to license the data, so they set the prices extremely high, starting at thousands of dollars per month.
Well, maybe you could deal with that if your app gets enough traction. There's more though... you can't actually get the data from CTA or UTP. You have to have a "vendor" do it for you, and pass on the data. The vendor is essentially a wrapper around the SIP that handles distributing the data to end-companies (not end-users, because realistically very little individuals can afford this, and vendors aren't too interested in dealing with individuals). Since the vendor focuses on the distribution, you'd assume their API would be top-notch. Instead you can tell it's built upon layers and layers of technical debt and edge cases. Oh well.
So, you then pay for the licenses from the SIPs, and the data from the vendor. You are now burning at least 10k a month. You get your first user, and they complain they can't find "SPX", the largest stock index in the world. Oops. It turns out indices, futures, options, and other securities, are all separate SIPs. You have to deal with even more backwards organizations to get licenses for each type of security. Don't forget the vendor wants another couple thousand for each SIP, more if you need realtime streaming or historical charting. Maybe just get indexes since they are popular? Indexes are once again spread across tens of organizations, depending on who owns the IP for the index. At this point you give up and just focus on U.S. stocks for now, until you get more funding.
Then one day, you are selected for a "random" audit by the SIP. They ask for personal information on every user you have, and claim that some users are actually financial professionals (such as a CFA or stock broker). They try to fine you 50x the price you expected because some users happen to have the same names as professional traders. (They charge a massive amount per professional trader vs per "ordinary" person) You have to deal with explaining what that even means and why it's important to your users to try to avoid this fine. Maybe your application was used on TV, or over the phone, or even on an elevator. There are different licenses for that. Ridiculous? Well, the SIP is authorized by the SEC to distribute the data, and enforce it. You have no upper hand in any negotiation.
To be continued in blog post someday maybe
FWIW, your new project already has some good traction. I've heard about it before (not sure where, but I 100% remember seeing it)
Great write up & very accurate detailing of the problem. While I was head of growth @ Kalshi (YC19) you would be shocked to discover how much we spent on data licensing.
> But, I started to get an idea of why there aren't great apps from indie developers focused on the stock market: getting quality financial market data is a nightmare. The good data you need for commercial use will cost $2,000/mon to start.
>I wouldn't ship an app with unreliable or inaccurate data. It never met my quality bar.
Stammys data challenges really resonated with me as I work to solve this problem for betting markets (instead of stock markets) with my new startup wagerapi.com
> But, I started to get an idea of why there aren't great apps from indie developers focused on the stock market: getting quality financial market data is a nightmare. The good data you need for commercial use will cost $2,000/mon to start.
>I wouldn't ship an app with unreliable or inaccurate data. It never met my quality bar.
Stammys data challenges really resonated with me as I work to solve this problem for betting markets (instead of stock markets) with my new startup wagerapi.com
Wow, love this explanation. The IEX bit also nails it perfectly based on my experience.
I think you can get free stock data from Tradier after creating an account.
If you release this app, I will buy it as soon as it is available.
Holy crap thats a sharp looking app and blog post
When I speak about some of my past experiences, and the pain they bring, I feel like people's eyes glaze over.
I dont think until you've spent upwards of a year on something at 10+ hours a day.... you could ever really relate.... thousands of hours, almost HALF the time they say it takes to master something, and then nothing comes of it...
I can just say I look back on those times of my life with appreciation but also, damn does it hurt. The pain never really fades too much either. Despite all my successful projects, all my fingers in many pies, all my current success... I can't get back those multi-year projects. They were certainly required for learning, but I just feel sad and melancholy when I think back.